Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:26:39 +0100 Michel BRIAND <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > >> - my first child is to born around 25 of december ;^) > > > >felictations! :) what a nice date to be born! :) > > > > Here it is ! > > It's a girl, born on 17 dec 09:05 (UTC+1), and it's firstname is Romane. congrats. not an xmas birthday - but close :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
>> - my first child is to born around 25 of december ;^) > >felictations! :) what a nice date to be born! :) > Here it is ! It's a girl, born on 17 dec 09:05 (UTC+1), and it's firstname is Romane. cu, Michel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Michel wrote: > On the 3D topic, I've read in this list that many people want > to keep away from 3D rendering. I've no problem with that. > > But improving the 2D rendering with some tricks using GL is > the sort of things I'd like to contribute to ;o))). > As to the gl and 3D stuff.. well, as you mention just getting current gl related 2D stuff to work better would be good. There's also something that's been mentioned before, which is to have engine-specific 'data' for setting on evas image objects (for an evas of that engine), in the case of the gl engine this would be texture and/or pbuffers. This would allow people to draw to evas image objects using gl. One could use this with various libs that give gl based drawing, or import 3D stuf, or allow for toolkits to give the equivalent of "gl widgets" for people to draw on with gl. Similarly, one could have an evas gl engine that draws to a texture or pbuffer rather that the current one that draws only to the standard gl buffer. You might also want to speak with Cedric, who mantains the evas-software-sdl engine and ecore-sdl, and see if maybe an evas-gl-sdl engine might be desirable, maybe write the gl backend for that to be different than the current gl backend that evas uses for the gl-x11 engine. Maybe see if something like 'ecore-gl' might be something that makes sense. Jorge (aka. turran) also nice work going on with the "enesim" gfx lib, and maybe you could speak with him about having a gl-based backend for it. > Anyway, maybe there is also good stuff to do in E config part ? I'm sure there is.. it's just a question of wether or not your experience and interests might be best served by looking into that vs other areas. On the other hand, maybe you could do that now and move on to other stuff later, ... or whatever. :) jose. _ Click here for free information on earning a criminal justice degree today. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nNLMdfdsFhx4XFTEBPdLxGYYAPGkKPa0X1KRwxY69Fp0EMw/ - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:29:44 GMT > > Michel BRIAND wrote: > >> ... >> I'm skilled in >> ... >> -3D scene graph and rendering with OpenGL >> ... >> >> I like very much the E config scheme that Raster ask me to >> look into recently... > > Raster asked you to look into E config.. as opposed to maybe >getting the evas gl engine working better? (need render-to-texture >support, bugs in this and that, better implementations of some things, >maybe using meshes for bordered scaling,...) Maybe some gl work on the >compositing manager.. Or other potential new projects/ideas that could >add 3D stuff to E? > Maybe you could tell him you're busy or something.. :) > Hello, yes I'm busy :). On the 3D topic, I've read in this list that many people want to keep away from 3D rendering. I've no problem with that. But improving the 2D rendering with some tricks using GL is the sort of things I'd like to contribute to ;o))). Anyway, maybe there is also good stuff to do in E config part ? I don't know. Regards, Michel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Michel BRIAND wrote: > ... > I'm skilled in > ... > -3D scene graph and rendering with OpenGL > ... > > I like very much the E config scheme that Raster ask me to > look into recently... Raster asked you to look into E config.. as opposed to maybe getting the evas gl engine working better? (need render-to-texture support, bugs in this and that, better implementations of some things, maybe using meshes for bordered scaling,...) Maybe some gl work on the compositing manager.. Or other potential new projects/ideas that could add 3D stuff to E? Maybe you could tell him you're busy or something.. :) _ Discount Online Trading - Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mJ8YHAGRUXTiUvi7D0Y5WcmJOmsRvQZRffWUlVGOjdQSDIs/ - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:06:53 GMT > > Michael BRIAND wrote: > >> LOL >> >> it's a sort of dangerous journey... being stuck into a words >> demonstation like this... > > Not at all. I know that KainX is just extremely rigorous >and demands a lot from himself -- and others. He showed me that >he did indeed know what he was talking about, and I'd been mistaken. > He just didn't realize that I had no idea what "HTH" means, >so I just started imagening what the hell it might be.. and given >all the talk from the stables and all the hippocritters around, >that's what came to mind. > > BTW, is there some area of "E" that you feel you might like >to work on? Some area you have some experience in? > > jose. Ok, you're right. Just to explain : I was shocked by bluntness ;) (Michael teach me that word ; On my skills and above all my time available ;o) ... I'm skilled in -source control software -software engineering in industry (it's seems that's different from open source development) -basic C UNIX programming (system, network, ...) -X11, motif -3D scene graph and rendering with OpenGL - My time available ? - I'm working 45hours/week for a big industry (aircrafts) - I'm leading an off work project involving a specialized Linux distribution (packaging) with a lot of 3d softwares (code & testing) for Archeology researchers and involving lobbying in the Research institutions to enable interoperability (politics, file formats, open source, ...) - my first child is to born around 25 of december ;^) Anyway I've looked into the E code a lot of time I've fixed some minor things in Imlib2. I've implemented new features in epeg. I like very much the E config scheme that Raster ask me to look into recently... Cheers, Michel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Michael BRIAND wrote: > LOL > > it's a sort of dangerous journey... being stuck into a words > demonstation like this... Not at all. I know that KainX is just extremely rigorous and demands a lot from himself -- and others. He showed me that he did indeed know what he was talking about, and I'd been mistaken. He just didn't realize that I had no idea what "HTH" means, so I just started imagening what the hell it might be.. and given all the talk from the stables and all the hippocritters around, that's what came to mind. BTW, is there some area of "E" that you feel you might like to work on? Some area you have some experience in? jose. _ Click to find local singles for dating, romance and fun. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nguDj2o28bEIEvw8ZNU7TvKjLxhDw9OViT55SocKAeLzh1G/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:30:43 GMT > > Morten wrote: > >> >What does "HTH," mean? >> >> "Hope That Helps" > > Ahh, thanks. I kept seeing things like "Hitting The Hay", >"Higher Than High", "Hotter Than Hot", "Humping The Hippo", ... ? >and was having problems visualizing Michael and the ... > >(just kidding MJ. :) ) > LOL it's a sort of dangerous journey... being stuck into a words demonstation like this... you had the merit of keeping your calm, bravo ! - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Monday, 26 November 2007, at 04:42:59 (+), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > What does "HTH," mean? "Hope That Helps" http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/HTH.html Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Linux Server/Cluster Admin, LBL.gov Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) --- "Temper is the one thing you can't get rid of by losing it." -- Jack Nicholson, "Anger Management" - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Morten wrote: > > What does "HTH," mean? > > "Hope That Helps" Ahh, thanks. I kept seeing things like "Hitting The Hay", "Higher Than High", "Hotter Than Hot", "Humping The Hippo", ... ? and was having problems visualizing Michael and the ... (just kidding MJ. :) ) _ Click for a free comparison on healthcare coverage and save 100's. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m3B8eFrS6PyPJK8DDXP4S8h2UJ4Kws67ztyb8v04TuDA8Gk/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > What does "HTH," mean? "Hope That Helps" -- Cheers, Morten :wq - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Michael wrote: > > So, either I misread your intended meaning, or you've > > misread mine. You decide. :) > > You misread mine. "Of course" was used as a conjunction, nothing > more. I could have said "however" or "but then" or any number of > others. Had I meant "of course" as a way to agree with Simon, > (1) I would still have needed a subordinating conjunction to > introduce the subsequent dependent clause; and (2) I would have > needed a semicolon instead of a comma since "of course" would > have been a complete thought. Ah Of course! > HTH, > Michael What does "HTH," mean? _ Save on an Orlando Vacation. Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nK7uN4h1gZogDkXBihmOoxHmIVnxyBn2guIfGQLaMq0smOc/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Sunday, 25 November 2007, at 07:48:43 (+), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Well, not quite. You did in fact make the point that you > agreed with Simon that there shouldn't be several toolkits -- > or at least that's what I took you mean. Here's the original > whole of it: > > > > There is no good reason to have three different toolkits in > > > the same project, > > > > > Of course, this is what a lot of other people said about Etk back > > before it got thrown in CVS. So now you sound hypocritical. > > I took your "Of course,..." to mean that you agreed with > Simon that there were no good reasons for having > Where I disagreed with both you and Simon was that aspect, > not your subsequent statement that he sounded hypocritical. > > So, either I misread your intended meaning, or you've > misread mine. You decide. :) You misread mine. "Of course" was used as a conjunction, nothing more. I could have said "however" or "but then" or any number of others. Had I meant "of course" as a way to agree with Simon, (1) I would still have needed a subordinating conjunction to introduce the subsequent dependent clause; and (2) I would have needed a semicolon instead of a comma since "of course" would have been a complete thought. HTH, Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Linux Server/Cluster Admin, LBL.gov Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) --- "There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made." -- Lady Morella (Majel Barrett Roddenberry), "Babylon Five" - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Michael wrote: > > It does sound a bit hypocritical. I would disagree with both > > you and Simon on this. > > But my only point was that he was being hypocritical, so you can't > agree with me and then disagree with me. That makes *you* > hypocritical. :) Well, not quite. You did in fact make the point that you agreed with Simon that there shouldn't be several toolkits -- or at least that's what I took you mean. Here's the original whole of it: > > There is no good reason to have three different toolkits in > > the same project, > > > Of course, this is what a lot of other people said about Etk back > before it got thrown in CVS. So now you sound hypocritical. I took your "Of course,..." to mean that you agreed with Simon that there were no good reasons for having Where I disagreed with both you and Simon was that aspect, not your subsequent statement that he sounded hypocritical. So, either I misread your intended meaning, or you've misread mine. You decide. :) jose. _ Find loans exclusively for members of our military. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3olPs8caOkTRZ9dmwf6Ox3Tzb60vxe6jMOPbQaGrjEmjyVQk/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Thursday, 22 November 2007, at 04:57:34 (+), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > It does sound a bit hypocritical. I would disagree with both you and > Simon on this. But my only point was that he was being hypocritical, so you can't agree with me and then disagree with me. That makes *you* hypocritical. :) Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Linux Server/Cluster Admin, LBL.gov Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) --- "By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry' ..."-- Gary Larson, "The Far Side" - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Michael wrote: > > There is no good reason to have three different toolkits in > > the same project, > > Of course, this is what a lot of other people said about Etk back > before it got thrown in CVS. So now you sound hypocritical. It does sound a bit hypocritical. I would disagree with both you and Simon on this. I tend to see apis as languages anyway, and consider both etk and ewl as different C "bindings" to the more abstract concept of gui widgetry and such stuff. There are good aspects to this, just as there are good aspects to having other programming language bindings to a given C api. There are bad aspects as well.. some amount of duplicated effort and other things. But if the developers of all these various 'bindings' would cooperate better, would actually work together to further some shared common goals, then the benefits eventually outweigh the negatives. They don't have to love each other, or agree on everything. It may that at some point much further down the road these could be 'supplanted', or they could 'merge', or they might continue, or maybe something else... who knows. Some may prefer ewl, some etk, others something else, and others may want to write things independent of either one. Having such choices available seems closer to the claimed 'spirit' of E than imposing one-true-toolkit or whatnot. From a practical point of view, etk offers people an easier path from the well known and widely used gtk toolkit, and that's something that all who feel a shared grounding in the common E project should see as valuable. Let's take the high-road and value and appreciate both these excellent sub-projects and the work of their talented developers. jose. _ Get a life insurance quote online. Click to compare rates and save. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3oib3C2cjGpOZN5cnWBf4SFbQ2ToWOEqbHUubsDNtmE6NmFy/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Wednesday, 14 November 2007, at 21:45:55 (+0100), Simon TRENY wrote: > There is no good reason to have three different toolkits in the same > project, Of course, this is what a lot of other people said about Etk back before it got thrown in CVS. So now you sound hypocritical. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Linux Server/Cluster Admin, LBL.gov Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) --- "You don't know what you have until your Everything is gone. You need someone to show you how to live again." -- Blessid Union of Souls, "I Want to Be There" - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 09:45:55PM +0100, Simon TRENY wrote: ... > As I said, imo devs should agree on a common project. Now, if a new > sub-project doesn't respect the project's definition or if it is > redundant with an existing project, it should not be a part of our > common project. That would be the rule to apply with new sub-projects. > For existing projects, the problem is more complex, as you can't decide > and say to a developer that his own project no longer belongs to our > project. But I think that sooner or later, we will have to make > choices. There is no good reason to have three different toolkits in > the same project, as there is no good reason for several video players > or several image-viewers. An application should follow the guidelines > set by the project-definition, and there should not be two > applications/libraries with the same purpose belonging to the same > project. > Thanks! I perfectly agree with what you said above, finally some unity (at least a wish for one). A desktop environment shouldn't have multiple choices for the same thing.. imagine M$ having two web browsers, or two media players, then windows would just suck (redundant sentence, isn't it?:p) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:44:59 GMT, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote : > > Simon wrote: > > > > I hope that everyone can be just as excited. I know I am. > > > I smell a new age of... Enlightenment. :) :) > > > > I'm really excited about this too! Especially about the new > > communication plan! I actually even think we should do more on > > the communication point. It would be great to establish a roadmap > > for example, with a list of items to get done in priority, for the > > different release-candidates, with eventually some mock-ups. It > > would also be good to have a place where designers or users could > > share easily some UI ideas. And not only for Enlightenment itself, > > but for all the libs/apps around E. > > A good thing to do too would be to *really* define the scope of > > the project. Are we just doing a WM, or are we aiming at something > > bigger? > > If this is something bigger, what should be the caracteristics of > > an E-app? Should it just use EFL? Should it be sexy? These questions > > would have to be answered if we want to get somewhere imo. > > Ok, so what is it that you want raster to tell you here? > He's already made it clear that his main interest is in the wm and > the core efl libs, and that's likely all he really has time for - > besides everything else. I'm not interested *only* by raster's opinion as you seem to think! I know these questions have to be answered by *all* the developers: we would have to agree on a common project and we would all have to share the same goals. Currently, there is no limitations, no well-defined bounds and the E project sometimes (often?) goes in several directions that are sometimes opposed, which may result in a big waste of our dev-time. > But again, since he's the "project" leader, things like this > keep being thrown at him. Do you really want him to be responsible > for the direction of etk too? Or maybe just bless it as the 'official' > raster-sanctioned gui toolkit? Being a leader doesn't mean you have to take *all* the decisions! It's not because Raster may only want to work on the WM that our project should only be about getting a working WM. He will not "forbid" the development of a full desktop-environment that would use E17 as a WM. If all the devs agree on a common desktop-environment project that would be coherent with e17, I see no reason why raster would refuse it. But Raster will/should always make the final decisions about the dev of E17 as it is his baby, as I will always make the decisions about the directions taken by Etk. You can't take away the power of decision from the creator of a project just for the name of "community-development". > What happens when something like etk or ewl, or some other > large 'thing' whose scope in many ways overlaps or even overwhelms > the scope of something like the wm, is also part of the "E" project? > If raster says "...we need to...", or "... I'd like to see...", or > something similar, then is he speaking for all "e", all projects, > or just for e-the-wm, or what? Or if he doesn't say anything about > 'myProject' then is it irrelevant to "E"? As I said, imo devs should agree on a common project. Now, if a new sub-project doesn't respect the project's definition or if it is redundant with an existing project, it should not be a part of our common project. That would be the rule to apply with new sub-projects. For existing projects, the problem is more complex, as you can't decide and say to a developer that his own project no longer belongs to our project. But I think that sooner or later, we will have to make choices. There is no good reason to have three different toolkits in the same project, as there is no good reason for several video players or several image-viewers. An application should follow the guidelines set by the project-definition, and there should not be two applications/libraries with the same purpose belonging to the same project. > > You're the "project" leader of etk Simon. What do you want > to do? How about a framework like javaFX, or Mozilla's xul, or MS's > xaml? Would that be something you'd like to see? What are your > thoughts on the future of graphical UIs? Do you have a 'roadmap' > for etk+whatever? I think the first step to accomplish would be to get all the current widgets usable. For now, some widgets are really far from being finished. The next big step would be to integrate a tool like "evolve" to be able to build really-customizable UI from a descriptive file. This tool should be directly part of Etk, and it should have a really good and easy-to-use editor. With that, we could start to build really nice apps quite easily, that would be as themable as native Edje apps. It would have to be far more detailled, but that is globally the roadmap I have in mind. > >jose. > > _ > It pays to Discover. > 0% Intro APR. 5% cashback bonus. A
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Simon wrote: > > I hope that everyone can be just as excited. I know I am. > > I smell a new age of... Enlightenment. :) :) > > I'm really excited about this too! Especially about the new > communication plan! I actually even think we should do more on > the communication point. It would be great to establish a roadmap > for example, with a list of items to get done in priority, for the > different release-candidates, with eventually some mock-ups. It > would also be good to have a place where designers or users could > share easily some UI ideas. And not only for Enlightenment itself, > but for all the libs/apps around E. > A good thing to do too would be to *really* define the scope of > the project. Are we just doing a WM, or are we aiming at something > bigger? > If this is something bigger, what should be the caracteristics of > an E-app? Should it just use EFL? Should it be sexy? These questions > would have to be answered if we want to get somewhere imo. Ok, so what is it that you want raster to tell you here? He's already made it clear that his main interest is in the wm and the core efl libs, and that's likely all he really has time for - besides everything else. But again, since he's the "project" leader, things like this keep being thrown at him. Do you really want him to be responsible for the direction of etk too? Or maybe just bless it as the 'official' raster-sanctioned gui toolkit? What happens when something like etk or ewl, or some other large 'thing' whose scope in many ways overlaps or even overwhelms the scope of something like the wm, is also part of the "E" project? If raster says "...we need to...", or "... I'd like to see...", or something similar, then is he speaking for all "e", all projects, or just for e-the-wm, or what? Or if he doesn't say anything about 'myProject' then is it irrelevant to "E"? You're the "project" leader of etk Simon. What do you want to do? How about a framework like javaFX, or Mozilla's xul, or MS's xaml? Would that be something you'd like to see? What are your thoughts on the future of graphical UIs? Do you have a 'roadmap' for etk+whatever? jose. _ It pays to Discover. 0% Intro APR. 5% cashback bonus. Apply now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/JKFkuJi7D6pVbTzJh1jOy7MhejicTzlUY9Bsj7P81ToRL02ZpPJAgw/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Le mardi 13 novembre 2007, Simon TRENY a écrit : > On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:54:45 +0800, > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote : > > First. > > > > I need to offer some big apologies. I have been pretty bad at being > > responsive and attentive to E for a while now. I can give you a > > million reasons (excuses) > > - but that not fair. I've basically been "paying the rent" with Jobs > > - and they have not had anything to do with E (first) and then > > nothing to do with Open source OR E. This means E swindled into a > > small corner of my world. I've been bad to respond to mail or provide > > any form of direction ,feedback - or for that matter - leadership. > > Please accept my sincerest apologies. It's my fault and my problem. I > > need to fix this. > > > > And fix it I shall. That is my intent. So launching into fixing, I > > shall do below. So bear with me. > > I've been for an email like this one for a few months now! Thanks! :) > > > First on to some news. It may has snuck out before and it's now > > official. I'm @ OpenMoko ( http://www.openmoko.org ) now. Why? Back > > to OpenSource roots - and for that matter, back to Linux, X11 and > > Graphics... and E! For those who don't know what OpenMoko is - > > read the link. It's exciting. > > That is really great news to hear! I'm really glad for you, and I'm > pretty sure you could bring a lot of good to the OpenMoko project! > Congratulations! :) > > > This mans I now will have more time. Right now I will be all over the > > place - I am shifting countries again, so I'll be sporadic with > > E-mail and reachability, but that will settle. I'm moving (partly) > > back to Sydney, Australia, and the other half of my time i will be in > > Taipei or other locations. But I do intend to have more focus and > > support on E. > > > > Now why? OpenMoko is convinced the technology behind E is what it > > takes to make exciting mobile phones that are Linux based and > > OpenSource.This amounts to what is commercial support for E. This > > makes me excited. This opens doors for us. In addition to the work > > Nokia's INDT are doing, Terrasoft, and now gOS with Everex - this is > > a growing list of companies putting their faith in us. Some of you > > may be suspicious of this - please do not be. In E land we have > > believed in freedom - not a limited brand of it, but one that ALSO > > gives freedom to those producing commercial products to do whatever > > it is they need or want to do. I believe that in the end, they will > > come back to the fold and not close and hide their source, because > > the cost of maintaining a fork is just too high. I belive with > > support will come resources, and resources will mean development of > > the things you need and want. Everyone wins. > > Great to see that more and more commercial products are using the > EFL! :) > > > One thing people may notice is that E is getting some splits. Desktop > > vs. "Embedded". Apps vs libraries and multiple libraries and > > projects. I don't think E will ever really totally split - it will > > just have lots of useful libraries, tools and apps - different ones > > aiming for different directions. One thing I hope to do is keep E > > together - even if there are different directions. > > It would be great in theory to be able to share the same code for the > Desktop and the Embedded versions of E, but I'm not sure it is such a > good idea after all. If it implies having lot of modules and lot of > use cases in order to get a different behaviour according to the > platform, I'm not sure it will benefit to the developer (more complex > code), not to the user (more complex interface). I'm actually not sure > a traditionnal WM like e17 will fit well on embedded devices like > cellphones. It might be good on Internet tables, but I'm more dubious > for small-screen devices. > > > I also see the team growing - this is great, but it serves to just > > increase communication traffic, and that in turn means less coding > > gets done. The traditional solution here is to start some hierarchy > > and "reporting lines". I don't want to do this though - this will > > server to create splits where once there was fluid freedom. If we > > must - we must. Any suggestions? I'm thinking of maybe just > > formalising a bit more of our developer "Relations", involvement and > > teamwork. Some Ideas for people-things: > > > > 1. Identify people who WANT to be leaders and shape the direction of > > E - and are willing to spent the effort. Some of you do it as a hobby > > and love just that, some do it for a job, others are in half-way > > houses. 2. Lets have actual weekly or monthly developer meetings - > > literally all-in live discussions - maybe IRC? Have actual agendas in > > meetings. Minutes. 3. Have regular community meetings where people > > can tell us what they like and don't - give feedback or whatever. > > 4. Try an organise some annual get-together. An "E meet" (I think > >
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Hi, I hope I'm not intruding into this subject, but I just want to share some of my experience and opinions on this subject. I'm a bit in the same position as Raster but on the aMSN project, usually everything goes by me as I'm the leader of the team, and I always try to avoid getting in discutions like this one (I avoid saying "I decide" but try to say "what do you think?"). and it is a very difficult job/responsability. Now I can agree with Jose, but I also disagree. Yes, getting the community more involved is a good thing, but is it always easy? I think that having a leader to make decisions is very important, otherwise, you will waste tons of times trying to find a common ground between two people, and the more people get involved, the worse it becomes. Let me take the git/cvs example. CVS is good/bad whatever, I used it for a long time, and I'm more than happy that I don't need to use it anymore (apart from 'cvs update' on E). We moved to SVN a while ago and we're very satisfied with it. I got some experience now with darcs and had a very small peek at git, and I don't like it very much. It's good, but it's so different, I don't see what's the gain when you're already used to something that's working. Now that's my opinion on the matter. I would love to see E get out of CVS, but I would rather vote for SVN than git, but git would be fine too. Now, take the whole lot of people developing on E, not everyone will agree that moving to git is the right choice. When the debate is opened, it can go on forever, literally, unless someone steps up and takes a decision. Remember, the world has agreed on one thing : disagree with each other. No matter what, there will always be someone unhappy. I don't know you, so I can't tell, but I'm guessing you're pissed at Raster because the decisions he makes are usually not the ones you want, so you feel kind of opressed by his leadership. Understandable, and maybe if you were to lead, things would have gone a different path, maybe a better path, maybe worse, noone will ever know. But whatever the case, one fact remains : someone HAS TO lead, someone HAS TO take decisions and people will NOT always be happy. Back to the aMSN project, we *often* get into that kind of situation, and then I have to force a decision to shut people's mouths and close a debate that was going on forever, we do waste a lot of time debating though. Usually what we also do is a poll, everyone exposes their point of view, yes/no/why trying to convince the other developers why they think solution X is better than Y, then we vote by email. Finally, the most used solution is "stop talking about it, we waste so much time talking about something and we never do anything at the end, so just go for it, code it, and prove +to me that you are right *through your code/the end result*" So here's the thing, communication is the key, think about the community.. get it more involved, someone wants to make evas do 3D and have a 3D desktop like beryl/compiz, that's what the community says.. well, should it be done ? how will it impact on the release deadline we're trying to set, will it break stuff, how much time will it take, is it *necessary*? I'm guessing Raster is trying to think of all possible stuff and see how it fits into his own vision of E, if it doesn't, then it shouldn't become part of E because it will handicap the whole thing. But also, what I like about E is that it's modular, so you can pretty much do whatever you want and put it as a module to extend the functionality of E. I think that the very fact that E was designed with this modular purpose is what makes E embracing the community. Think about it, I want something, and I use KDE (I don't), it would be a mess to try to get the KDE people to add the feature I want and provide an option to enable/disable it, etc.. with E, I think that it doesn't have to go like this. I chose the EFL exactly because of this, because on IRC, I kept reading "patches accepted", because I fixed some stuff and my changes went into CVS a few hours after I sent them. Because the other libs/toolkits have their limitations, and I don't want my product to be stuf with those limitations, while the EFL also has its limitations, I know that I will not be stuck with them, I can change them. Example, GTK doesn't support a semi-transparent background on a text widget.. if I choose GTK, I'm stuck with that, and I don't even want to try to get the GTK team to change that just for me. In EFL, I can't get embeded images in a text widget, I don't mind, I can always fix it and remove that limitation (btw, that limitation really sucks since it will cripple any IM program trying to use the EFL). Anyways, all this to say that I think that this team is community-oriented, the dynamics are good, and that whether you like it or not, a leader always has to be there. Of course, there are always things that can/should be improved, but I haven't been around
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Hisham wrote: > mailing list / #edevelop and off) share your same opinions. > So, whats next? I don't know what's next - we're ALL going to have to determine that.. Carsten proposed some very good steps in his initial email. But I do know what's first: It's to get these kinds of things understood, so that others can proceed - in a coherent, constructive way. So the mistakes of the past aren't done again. jose. _ 0% intro APR on Balance Transfers Fraud protection and cashback bonus. Apply now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/JKFkuJi7DiZ09s7WZLuyxaGdo1k80jzvrOghUkcw9WgTWwqaPpeEzO/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:54:45 +0800, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote : > First. > > I need to offer some big apologies. I have been pretty bad at being > responsive and attentive to E for a while now. I can give you a > million reasons (excuses) > - but that not fair. I've basically been "paying the rent" with Jobs > - and they have not had anything to do with E (first) and then > nothing to do with Open source OR E. This means E swindled into a > small corner of my world. I've been bad to respond to mail or provide > any form of direction ,feedback - or for that matter - leadership. > Please accept my sincerest apologies. It's my fault and my problem. I > need to fix this. > > And fix it I shall. That is my intent. So launching into fixing, I > shall do below. So bear with me. I've been for an email like this one for a few months now! Thanks! :) > > First on to some news. It may has snuck out before and it's now > official. I'm @ OpenMoko ( http://www.openmoko.org ) now. Why? Back > to OpenSource roots - and for that matter, back to Linux, X11 and > Graphics... and E! For those who don't know what OpenMoko is - > read the link. It's exciting. That is really great news to hear! I'm really glad for you, and I'm pretty sure you could bring a lot of good to the OpenMoko project! Congratulations! :) > > This mans I now will have more time. Right now I will be all over the > place - I am shifting countries again, so I'll be sporadic with > E-mail and reachability, but that will settle. I'm moving (partly) > back to Sydney, Australia, and the other half of my time i will be in > Taipei or other locations. But I do intend to have more focus and > support on E. > > Now why? OpenMoko is convinced the technology behind E is what it > takes to make exciting mobile phones that are Linux based and > OpenSource.This amounts to what is commercial support for E. This > makes me excited. This opens doors for us. In addition to the work > Nokia's INDT are doing, Terrasoft, and now gOS with Everex - this is > a growing list of companies putting their faith in us. Some of you > may be suspicious of this - please do not be. In E land we have > believed in freedom - not a limited brand of it, but one that ALSO > gives freedom to those producing commercial products to do whatever > it is they need or want to do. I believe that in the end, they will > come back to the fold and not close and hide their source, because > the cost of maintaining a fork is just too high. I belive with > support will come resources, and resources will mean development of > the things you need and want. Everyone wins. Great to see that more and more commercial products are using the EFL! :) > > One thing people may notice is that E is getting some splits. Desktop > vs. "Embedded". Apps vs libraries and multiple libraries and > projects. I don't think E will ever really totally split - it will > just have lots of useful libraries, tools and apps - different ones > aiming for different directions. One thing I hope to do is keep E > together - even if there are different directions. It would be great in theory to be able to share the same code for the Desktop and the Embedded versions of E, but I'm not sure it is such a good idea after all. If it implies having lot of modules and lot of use cases in order to get a different behaviour according to the platform, I'm not sure it will benefit to the developer (more complex code), not to the user (more complex interface). I'm actually not sure a traditionnal WM like e17 will fit well on embedded devices like cellphones. It might be good on Internet tables, but I'm more dubious for small-screen devices. > > I also see the team growing - this is great, but it serves to just > increase communication traffic, and that in turn means less coding > gets done. The traditional solution here is to start some hierarchy > and "reporting lines". I don't want to do this though - this will > server to create splits where once there was fluid freedom. If we > must - we must. Any suggestions? I'm thinking of maybe just > formalising a bit more of our developer "Relations", involvement and > teamwork. Some Ideas for people-things: > > 1. Identify people who WANT to be leaders and shape the direction of > E - and are willing to spent the effort. Some of you do it as a hobby > and love just that, some do it for a job, others are in half-way > houses. 2. Lets have actual weekly or monthly developer meetings - > literally all-in live discussions - maybe IRC? Have actual agendas in > meetings. Minutes. 3. Have regular community meetings where people > can tell us what they like and don't - give feedback or whatever. > 4. Try an organise some annual get-together. An "E meet" (I think > I'll just call it "The Rave" for now - it fits with the whole E > thing). So Literally find a place on the planet we all can/want to go > to - go there. Having more meetings (virtual or in real life) is a real
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Nov 13, 2007 3:02 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The 'problem' here is actually deeper than some of what you > mention Hisham. > > Imagine for a moment that you try to build something like an > automobile, or an aircraft, or a tv set,... in the same manner that > E 'works'. > Well, maybe you can - and I guess e-the-wm plus some 'core' > libs, are something like that.. But at least everyone knew that's > what was being built (more or less, that wasn't all that clear at > times). > > Now, you want to 'build' something more? Like what? > > Gee, I don't know.. maybe this here, maybe that there... > Well, just go do it.. get it done, if you want. > Hey look there, someone did something like a fm, or a media > player, or a blimey lib, or a gizmabob,... Hey, do "we" need this.. > how about "let's" do that... Nah, I think "the" website should say.. > > U, I wonder. If one of those 'things' is something like > a "development platform", how well that approach is going to work > within the context of "E" as the 'parent' project. > > Jose, I understand that doing all of this for "E", Enlightenment, the WM (or "Desktop Shell") is not enough to ensure that things are designed and developed in order to create a development platform. The point I raised still stands though. You've mentioned what "issues" you have with the way things are being done, but how do you propose we work to change the current state of things? If you feel so strongly about this, why don't you propose, and work towards, what you have in mind? Both you and I know that a lot of the people involved in several email and irc discussions (both on the mailing list / #edevelop and off) share your same opinions. So, whats next? -- Hisham Mardam Bey http://hisham.cc/ +1-514-713-9312 Codito Ergo Sum (I Code Therefore I Am) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Hisham wrote: > > As I have talked to both, a lot, about this matter, I'm starting to > develop a feel to the true issue here. > > . The 'problem' here is actually deeper than some of what you mention Hisham. Imagine for a moment that you try to build something like an automobile, or an aircraft, or a tv set,... in the same manner that E 'works'. Well, maybe you can - and I guess e-the-wm plus some 'core' libs, are something like that.. But at least everyone knew that's what was being built (more or less, that wasn't all that clear at times). Now, you want to 'build' something more? Like what? Gee, I don't know.. maybe this here, maybe that there... Well, just go do it.. get it done, if you want. Hey look there, someone did something like a fm, or a media player, or a blimey lib, or a gizmabob,... Hey, do "we" need this.. how about "let's" do that... Nah, I think "the" website should say.. U, I wonder. If one of those 'things' is something like a "development platform", how well that approach is going to work within the context of "E" as the 'parent' project. jose. _ It pays to Discover. 0% Intro APR. 5% cashback bonus. Apply now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/JKFkuJi7D2mRiufwWGlfgNMPkiWWsUHNj5OdgTjNR1tEkz5r649OtC/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Nov 13, 2007 5:45 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >That last email: > > > > > > > so what you want is me to simply say "yes yes - do whatever you > > > want" > > ... > > > > No, I want you to put on a big "E" logo outfit and dance around > > and the next/first e "rave". But that's just me. > > > > Anyway, let's leave this. Concentrate instead on making all > > those things you say you want "E" to become - happen. > > was supposed to go to raster, not the list! > > I'll leave it at that. :) > Hello guys, This is a general response to this discussion between Jose and Raster. As I have talked to both, a lot, about this matter, I'm starting to develop a feel to the true issue here. Say someone starts writing these patches for Evas. They send them to the list. The patches have major internal changes, and might have API breaks and additions. Who's going to look at those and decide how to handle them? Are they good? Are they bad? Should they be done differently, etc. Jose wants the community to be involved much more than it is now. Raster keeps saying people are free. But the reality of things is, as it stands, some issues can only be resolved by Raster. Why? Several reasons. First of all, some of the code we have (specially Evas) is only maintained by one or two people, sometimes only one. The rest of the developers, although being knowledgeable about the code in general, are not concerned with that part itself. At this point, the responsibility is automatically put on one person, in particular, Raster. I can hear Jose saying "thats the core of the problem". Thats true, it is the core. Other developers are either not willing to spend the time, or simply are not involved directly with the code (since as it stands, a lot of the discussion is based on the fact that the core libraries need to be changed, rethought, redesigned, split up, and worked out so they support a real modern development environment that is community centric more than what we have now). Jose has been constantly pushing for more involvement, and from moving away from a single point (person) for decision making. Raster has been constantly saying people are free to do whatever they want as long as there's a general agreement. So what is the problem here really? Say we want to redesign Evas, Edje, and Ecore (split it up). Suppose we want more tools that help developers use the EFL in an easier way, something closer to a modern development platform rather than simply looking through header files and writing out code. Suppose we want to to do all what Jose says (better community interaction, move away from just "having E" as this window manager project that can not grow beyond that, providing a development platform), and suppose we also want to do what Raster says (where people are free to do what they want as long as its good for the project, no central point of failure, etc), whats stopping us? The perfect example, and answer, to this never ending debate is Jorge (turran)'s Enesim. Jorge was tired of a lot of limitations and design issues he found in Evas, and decided to do something about it, the right way. He started with some designs, forked out some code, started discussing it on the mailing list, and as soon as it worked well, he added it to cvs for the developers and community to watch, play with, and work on. Now when Enesim is ready for prime time, and Jorge says it can start helping Evas do a better job, who's gonna integrate it? Jorge can keep talking about it forever. Raster can keep saying "its good, work on it, integrate it" for ever (he wont do it, he doesnt have the time, nor is it his code, so it will take even more time). The only way its going to happen is if Jorge himself does it, or if Jorge can raise enough interest for someone else to do it. I think Jorge, with the help of others (or not), will end up doing it. The point here is, if you see something wrong, and you want to change it, talk about it, provide proof / solid issues of why its wrong, and take the first (few) steps into correcting it. Jose can keep on talking forever. Raster can keep on answering forever, and we can keep reading their discussion forever, and it will be the same with everyone and everything else. Unless people make a first move (and a second, third, and fourth move) it will all be talk in the air. Prove yourself right by showing that you're working and have something for the community, and prove that the freedom exists (or doesnt) by sending this work and asking for changes to be done based on it. If people keep talking, but they don't have anything to offer, they should stop bothering (unless they are preachers and never intended to do any real work). If work is offered, and Raster rejects it based on no real argument that is agreed upon by the major number of people involved in the project, then we know Raster is a hypocrite. Just work, make your work available, an
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
That last email: > > > > so what you want is me to simply say "yes yes - do whatever you > > want" > ... > > No, I want you to put on a big "E" logo outfit and dance around > and the next/first e "rave". But that's just me. > > Anyway, let's leave this. Concentrate instead on making all > those things you say you want "E" to become - happen. was supposed to go to raster, not the list! I'll leave it at that. :) _ 0% Intro APR. 5% Cashback bonus and Fraud Protection. Apply now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/JKFkuJi7DSOiTfamxVodGSNt9bZfz31rz5DVYt8qs4qslABQrzCyfu/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:18:26 GMT "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > Carsten wrote: > > I'll keep this short, since I really don't want to prolong > this sub-thread between us. > > > > > > > Busy or not, you've never expressed any interest or support > > > for seeing this project become a true community one. > > > > i have done just he opposite - i have encouraged people to > > DO THEIR OWN THING. most of the time people come and ask me or > > > > > > i now have more time. regardless of tyring to get people to just > > take things on their own shoulders and do it - tonnes of things > > just end up back in my lap. i have retracted what it is i do to > > a small subset of whats in EFL and CVS. i ignore everything else > > and let others handle that. > > > Ummm. > > > but community does NOT mean everything goes through me. i am a > > single point of failure. i want people to stand up and be leaders > > on their own - stand on their own 2 feet and be counted. > > Exactly. And for that, you can't really have ONE person > who has basically ALL decision making authority. > > Some devs just recently brought up the issue of using git > instead of cvs, and while there were varying points of view on it, > the bottom line seemed to be that YOU don't want to move things > to git - not that there was a concensus on that, or that people > were not going to be responsible, or whatnot. It's that you don't > want it. there were other voices of dissent too. not just me. it looked like a split. git just changes a lot about the way we work. it's a stupid idea to do it right now anyway - if you read my comments i said "no way we are changing SCM before e17 is out - or we just will sink more months into adjusting to a new one". i asked about how git will address the cvs commits list and other issues. i even said "once e17 is out i had planned a cleanup o the tree - and we can re-visit the issue there". its an open issue and i have said that i think its bets to happen LATER. i also said that i am dubious of the changes and their usefulness - along with several other long-time e developers. so don't put this on my shoulders just because i disagree. > Why would anyone even contemplate doing anything that you > might not want? because the world isn't all about everyone nicely agreeing to do anything you like. you need to disagree and say no when you do disagree. i disagree. if every time you disagree you simply lie and say "great idea - do it" everything may as well stop. no one is expressing their opinion, just being a bunch of "yes" men. > I have the feeling that you and I have two radically different > notions of what a "community" means, and I guess we'll just have to > leave it at that. community can work on hat they want. if they wish to impose THEIR desired changes on EVERYONE - those who wrote the code to star, or have been working for a long time or keep working - you need to all agree - and really agree, not just pretend to agree for the sake of "harmony". as i said - this is NOT the right time to go change SCM's. unless you want to postpone things for more months. the time is after we release e17 and friends. i believe gustavo already agreed this probably is a good idea (on irc). so what you want is me to simply say "yes yes - do whatever you want" irrespective of the fact that michael disagrees, nathan disagrees, brian disagrees, dan disagrees - all of them disagreed long before i said anything. are these people NOT members of the community? does their voice NOT count just because i also agree with them? this is a debate. i still see nothing that says we absolutely must drop everything and use git now because we will be so disadvantaged in getting e17 out the door unless we do that. all *I* see is how long other projects have spent moving to git, and going with the tried and tested "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" model - cvs ain't broke. it's not our core "product" so its just a tool to get stuff done. if ti works - it works. it may not be perfect, but it works and has worked for a decade for us. shall we throw away a decade of experience at the drop of a hat "just before release"? (don't read anything in to that)? -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Carsten wrote: I'll keep this short, since I really don't want to prolong this sub-thread between us. > > > > Busy or not, you've never expressed any interest or support > > for seeing this project become a true community one. > > i have done just he opposite - i have encouraged people to > DO THEIR OWN THING. most of the time people come and ask me or > > > i now have more time. regardless of tyring to get people to just > take things on their own shoulders and do it - tonnes of things > just end up back in my lap. i have retracted what it is i do to > a small subset of whats in EFL and CVS. i ignore everything else > and let others handle that. > Ummm. > but community does NOT mean everything goes through me. i am a > single point of failure. i want people to stand up and be leaders > on their own - stand on their own 2 feet and be counted. Exactly. And for that, you can't really have ONE person who has basically ALL decision making authority. Some devs just recently brought up the issue of using git instead of cvs, and while there were varying points of view on it, the bottom line seemed to be that YOU don't want to move things to git - not that there was a concensus on that, or that people were not going to be responsible, or whatnot. It's that you don't want it. Why would anyone even contemplate doing anything that you might not want? I have the feeling that you and I have two radically different notions of what a "community" means, and I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. jose. _ Click here for free information on earning a criminal justice degree today. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nNLNOuOffGwFODijHteRRiRuNrlMhQ0MmdB0tbXSljbkxa4/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:35:29 GMT "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > Carsten wrote: > > > First. > > > > I need to offer some big apologies. I have been pretty bad at being > > . > > Well, I'll give you my own thoughts on this. > > These new "developments" in E may well be exciting new > opportunities and whatnot, but for some e-developers at least, > there are long-standing historical issues with this project. > > What you call your 'lack of leadership', some saw rather > differently. Indeed, some saw it as a good approach, a benevolent- > dictator kind of approach. > Maybe they're right, and that is a 'good' way to develop > something like a wm plus its supporting libs.. but it's not likely > to scale well much beyond that - eg. to scale to something like > a serious development platform (unless perhaps you envision the > wm+modules as a kind of limited platform itself). > > On several ocassions, some developers here have brought up > some of the things you seem to be addressing now - essentially, to > have the project run as a true 'community' project. But, they were > either ignored, brushed-off, or even treated with some hostility. > Busy or not, you've never expressed any interest or support for > seeing this project become a true community one. i have done just he opposite - i have encouraged people to DO THEIR OWN THING. most of the time people come and ask me or someone else to do something for them. when you have limited time and resources you say no. when people pester you often enough you get narky. you have maybe 1-2 hrs a day. you eat them up already on just email. you get no code done. you are already unhappy. you don't need more pressure. i have encouraged e to be SPLIT UP - if someone wants to do a web browser - DO IT. dont com asking for it and asking for design advice, asking for this that and the other. just DO it. make it your own. > Why the sudden change of heart? Because you have a new > employer and can now be the "leader" you say you haven't had the > chance to be? i now have more time. regardless of tyring to get people to just take things on their own shoulders and do it - tonnes of things just end up back in my lap. i have retracted what it is i do to a small subset of whats in EFL and CVS. i ignore everything else and let others handle that. but community does NOT mean everything goes through me. i am a single point of failure. i want people to stand up and be leaders on their own - stand on their own 2 feet and be counted. > While I applaud your statements to (finally) want to see > this project move in the direction of a true community effort, > and I believe the things you've proposed are good... Do you really > expect everyone to feel warm and fuzzy all over, ignore the past, > and joyfully embrace this 'new age of enlightenment'? > > I hope they do, honestly - but I think that it's not going > to be that easy.. not for those who were satisfied with the "old > order", and not for those who've questioned things and called for > change before. > >jose. > > _ > Click for your daily horoscope, learn about money, love & family. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3ly8kw6Kq0SdgSaubx9a4J7TZF52NdjtfrVt8447rKt2qTQc/ > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ > ___ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Sorry, this mail was just to raster... sometimes I just forget to "reply to all", damn... On Nov 8, 2007 10:44 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:29:10 -0300 "Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > > yeah, finally announced :-) > > yup :) > > > > 1. Identify people who WANT to be leaders and shape the direction of E - > > > and > > > are willing to spent the effort. Some of you do it as a hobby and love > > > just > > > that, some do it for a job, others are in half-way houses. > > > > well, I'm being paid to work on EFL (libs, not the wm) so I must stand > > up and say I'd like to be such a leader. > > cool. excellent. god damn though - too much email. i am going to have to limit > what i do email-wise > > > > 2. Lets have actual weekly or monthly developer meetings - literally > > > all-in > > > live discussions - maybe IRC? Have actual agendas in meetings. Minutes. > > > > great. btw, we could use a IRC bot to log channels and also inform CVS > > commits and like. > > yup. > > > > 3. Have regular community meetings where people can tell us what they like > > > and don't - give feedback or whatever. > > > 4. Try an organise some annual get-together. An "E meet" (I think I'll > > > just > > > call it "The Rave" for now - it fits with the whole E thing). So Literally > > > find a place on the planet we all can/want to go to - go there. > > > > You're all invited to come to Bossa Conference, Brazil. No dates > > confirmed, but it may be around March. It's focused on embedded > > systems & linux, but since we're using EFL heavily, it would fit too. > > Raster plans to attend, so maybe others could come and we can have > > a pre/post/during event miniconf. > > seems i have an invitation to SCALE in february too (in california). thats feb > 8-10. maybe i can do a au->cali->br thing - come in before bossa, hang, leave > right after bossa? it might work. so come to recife around 10-12th of feb - i > would hope that bossa is about mid march? No dates are defined yet, but that may be around that. > > > Now we also need to fix up enlightenment.org a bit - I intend to sink a > > > bit > > > of time into solidifying some content. The Wiki has a fair bit. Anyone is > > > welcome to contribute as they see fit. > > > > dresb did an amazing work, wiki.e.o is much better now! Thanks dresb! > > :) > > > > Once E17 is out I intend to work hard on taking E mobile. That mans giving > > > it the ability to run beautifully on tiny 1-4" screens or so, from 320x240 > > > up to 800x480 or beyond but work like a charm with touchcreens, stylus's > > > or > > > fingers, with or without a keyboard or other buttons. But above all - it > > > has to be sexy. This will simply be extending E - adding hooks, modules or > > > module replacements. This will not mean E for the desktop is abandoned by > > > me - it means it is simply a parallel focus - I use it every day of my > > > life > > > on every machine I have. Now I want it in the palm of my hand too. > > > > > > I hope that everyone can be just as excited. I know I am. I smell a new > > > age > > > of... Enlightenment. :) > > > > Yeah, I'm really excited about it... BTW, to those that don't know, I > > presented a talk at CELF Embedded Linux Conference > > (http://www.celinux.org/elc_europe07/sessions.html) called "Fancy and > > Fast GUIs on Embedded Devices" > > (http://tree.celinuxforum.org/CelfPubWiki/ELCEurope2007Presentations). > > It was successul, people were impressed by EFL, Rage, Expedite... > > looks like you sent this just to me! did you mean to send it to the list too? sorry, my bad... cc the list this time. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#: 17249123 Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (81) 9927 0010 - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
(snip) I'm extremely excited! For a variety of reasons I've been in drift mode but have really wanted to get back on the horse and help drive things a bit more. I love the idea of having better and more structured communication. Sure, as Jose points out the free form mode has had its benefits, but its also had serious drawbacks. From the support/evangelism/docs/etc side not having a road map or synchronization between developers has caused work frequently to become obsolete before a release. Scheduled meetings have, for me anyway, gone a long way to keeping people interested, focused, and producing. OpenMoko seems really kool and any friend of the EFL is a friend of mine. Lets kick some ass! benr. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] News from the E stables
Carsten wrote: > First. > > I need to offer some big apologies. I have been pretty bad at being > . Well, I'll give you my own thoughts on this. These new "developments" in E may well be exciting new opportunities and whatnot, but for some e-developers at least, there are long-standing historical issues with this project. What you call your 'lack of leadership', some saw rather differently. Indeed, some saw it as a good approach, a benevolent- dictator kind of approach. Maybe they're right, and that is a 'good' way to develop something like a wm plus its supporting libs.. but it's not likely to scale well much beyond that - eg. to scale to something like a serious development platform (unless perhaps you envision the wm+modules as a kind of limited platform itself). On several ocassions, some developers here have brought up some of the things you seem to be addressing now - essentially, to have the project run as a true 'community' project. But, they were either ignored, brushed-off, or even treated with some hostility. Busy or not, you've never expressed any interest or support for seeing this project become a true community one. Why the sudden change of heart? Because you have a new employer and can now be the "leader" you say you haven't had the chance to be? While I applaud your statements to (finally) want to see this project move in the direction of a true community effort, and I believe the things you've proposed are good... Do you really expect everyone to feel warm and fuzzy all over, ignore the past, and joyfully embrace this 'new age of enlightenment'? I hope they do, honestly - but I think that it's not going to be that easy.. not for those who were satisfied with the "old order", and not for those who've questioned things and called for change before. jose. _ Click for your daily horoscope, learn about money, love & family. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3ly8kw6Kq0SdgSaubx9a4J7TZF52NdjtfrVt8447rKt2qTQc/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
[E-devel] News from the E stables
First. I need to offer some big apologies. I have been pretty bad at being responsive and attentive to E for a while now. I can give you a million reasons (excuses) - but that not fair. I've basically been "paying the rent" with Jobs - and they have not had anything to do with E (first) and then nothing to do with Open source OR E. This means E swindled into a small corner of my world. I've been bad to respond to mail or provide any form of direction ,feedback - or for that matter - leadership. Please accept my sincerest apologies. It's my fault and my problem. I need to fix this. And fix it I shall. That is my intent. So launching into fixing, I shall do below. So bear with me. First on to some news. It may has snuck out before and it's now official. I'm @ OpenMoko ( http://www.openmoko.org ) now. Why? Back to OpenSource roots - and for that matter, back to Linux, X11 and Graphics... and E! For those who don't know what OpenMoko is - read the link. It's exciting. This mans I now will have more time. Right now I will be all over the place - I am shifting countries again, so I'll be sporadic with E-mail and reachability, but that will settle. I'm moving (partly) back to Sydney, Australia, and the other half of my time i will be in Taipei or other locations. But I do intend to have more focus and support on E. Now why? OpenMoko is convinced the technology behind E is what it takes to make exciting mobile phones that are Linux based and OpenSource.This amounts to what is commercial support for E. This makes me excited. This opens doors for us. In addition to the work Nokia's INDT are doing, Terrasoft, and now gOS with Everex - this is a growing list of companies putting their faith in us. Some of you may be suspicious of this - please do not be. In E land we have believed in freedom - not a limited brand of it, but one that ALSO gives freedom to those producing commercial products to do whatever it is they need or want to do. I believe that in the end, they will come back to the fold and not close and hide their source, because the cost of maintaining a fork is just too high. I belive with support will come resources, and resources will mean development of the things you need and want. Everyone wins. One thing people may notice is that E is getting some splits. Desktop vs. "Embedded". Apps vs libraries and multiple libraries and projects. I don't think E will ever really totally split - it will just have lots of useful libraries, tools and apps - different ones aiming for different directions. One thing I hope to do is keep E together - even if there are different directions. I also see the team growing - this is great, but it serves to just increase communication traffic, and that in turn means less coding gets done. The traditional solution here is to start some hierarchy and "reporting lines". I don't want to do this though - this will server to create splits where once there was fluid freedom. If we must - we must. Any suggestions? I'm thinking of maybe just formalising a bit more of our developer "Relations", involvement and teamwork. Some Ideas for people-things: 1. Identify people who WANT to be leaders and shape the direction of E - and are willing to spent the effort. Some of you do it as a hobby and love just that, some do it for a job, others are in half-way houses. 2. Lets have actual weekly or monthly developer meetings - literally all-in live discussions - maybe IRC? Have actual agendas in meetings. Minutes. 3. Have regular community meetings where people can tell us what they like and don't - give feedback or whatever. 4. Try an organise some annual get-together. An "E meet" (I think I'll just call it "The Rave" for now - it fits with the whole E thing). So Literally find a place on the planet we all can/want to go to - go there. Now we also need to fix up enlightenment.org a bit - I intend to sink a bit of time into solidifying some content. The Wiki has a fair bit. Anyone is welcome to contribute as they see fit. But the primary thing of importance is getting E17 out the door. It's actually looking petty good. Only 2 really big TODO items left. I'm doing a theme revamp. The Default theme has very much aged. The gold bling isn't incredibly popular. I'm working on something I think people will love - and it still shows off E. It will replace the current default - and will also knock off some of the "comment the default theme so its better documented for people to build new themes from and learn Edje. Once E17 is out I intend to work hard on taking E mobile. That mans giving it the ability to run beautifully on tiny 1-4" screens or so, from 320x240 up to 800x480 or beyond but work like a charm with touchcreens, stylus's or fingers, with or without a keyboard or other buttons. But above all - it has to be sexy. This will simply be extending E - adding hooks, modules or module replacements. This will not mean E for the desktop is abandoned by me - it means it is simply a parallel fo
