Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric/j

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 


Hi All,   I'm going with Phil here as the best engineered, lowest cost 
conversion now is swapping the whole Tesla rear end subframe and buying a 
control card from openinverter which has control cards  other drives too.And 
so, so many totaled the price should be fairly low.  DC controllers of any 
power just cost too much new comes free with the subframe.And the 3 rear will 
match the power, sportiness of the BMW better than any other I know of. I lot 
of examples on youtube to follow.For people who want to build their own body, 
using a 3 chassis is hard to beat.  Look up those who are taking everything off 
a 3 they can and still runs. Leroy is one.  'Leroy Tesla racing' should pop it 
up.Jerry Dycus
On 4/26/2024 4:14 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> In this age I declare DC dead.  It would be hard to go wrong if you can
> cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
> reliable and efficient units made.  Unless you do something special (such
> as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
> especially in local city driving.
>
> We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using the
> Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.  They have been proven to be almost bomb-proof
> even lugging very heavy vans around.
>
> But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of engineering
> to bring our vans to market.  It's a long project even for someone with
> deep mechanical and electrical experience.  It can be very rewarding, but
> it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time (such as being
> retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay $50k+
> minimum)  Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
> professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.
>
> One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
> transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
> just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
> can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
> lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.  Then there's
> the transmission...  Plus you get no regen.  Yeah it's mechanically
> easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV  wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I
>> did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over
>> by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to
>> go AC or DC?
>> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Motorola EV Corvette

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Paul and All,Good to hear EV history being preserved.  Motorola engineers 
back in 68?, I was 16yrs old, from the local Motorola plant in Sarasota Florida 
were doing an EV Show and Tell at the McDonalds with a Henney Kilowatt and 3 
conversions, a Renault Dauphine, a Fiat 600 and another, was my first EV 
experience.  And stuck with me that EVs were viable. I was already an ET at the 
time doing TV, audio repair and the only one that understood transistors the 
other tube techs hated.So there was EV interest in the company early on.    
Jerry
On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 03:39:16 AM EST, Paul Compton via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 The Motorola Corvette EV is being restored.

https://youtu.be/G7awv5KS3Nw?si=taJWWPcAcKtOgDL_

On Thu, 22 Sept 2022 at 17:15, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > Intriguing! This seems to be the story's origin:
> >
> > https://www.thedrive.com/culture/we-found-motorolas-secret-chevy-corvette-ev-
> > prototype-from-the-1990s
> >
> > or https://v.gd/NbYpwY
> >
> > One wonders why an organization with presumably deep pockets had to start
> > with a used glider.
>
> I agree that the author seems a bit clueless about EVs and their
> history. I sent him an email with additional details.
>
> > The article's author calls this an "EV prototype"
>
> Yes, it was a test bed. Motorola was a big semiconductor supplier to the
> auto industry. They routinely wrote application notes to encourage
> automotive engineers to use their parts. Of course they had to test
> their circuits, to be sure they really worked. The Corvette was a good
> (and fun) way for the engineers to do it!
>
> They didn't make it public because auto company executives would be
> outraged if (for example) Ford knew that "their" circuits were designed
> and tested in a (gasp choke) GM vehicle!
>
> > So a little possibly irresponsible speculation: maybe Motorola management
> > looked at GM's 1990 Impact prototype and the Hughes AC "Vector Drive," and
> > wondered whether Motorola might catch some of the potential EV market.
>
> Many of Motorola's industrial and automotive EV application notes were
> collected and published in the "Motor Control Electronics Handbook" by
> Richard Valentine (c) 1998. The authors and references are almost all
> Motorola Semiconductor employees and application notes. There you'll
> find the 'Vette's motor controller, charger, power steering (and more),
> all laid out completely enough that one could actually build them.
>
> > The article... suggests that it's a series DC motor.
> > But... it sounds more like an AC induction drive of the time.
>
> Yes; it was an AC induction motor. But there were probably DC motors in
> the vehicle as well, for things like the power steering pump and A/C
> compressor.
>
> BTW, the Valentine book also describes a DC traction motor drive system
> in a Ford pickup truck. Maybe another test bed of the Motorola group?
>
> > The Impact, Hughes, and AC Propulsion drives all ran in the 300-400 volt
> > range, though not at 1000 amps.
>
> Not 1000 amps continuous; the batteries weren't up to it. But remember
> that the motor controller steps the voltage down and the current up. It
> could well have delivered 1000 amps peak to the motor.
>
> > Bummer that the article's author wasn't more knowledgeable about EVs.  One
> > of us might have figured out a LOT more, given the same opportunity to nose
> > around it.  Does anyone here live close to Gurnee, Illinois?
>
> It would indeed be interesting to hear an expert's opinion on the vehicle!
>
> For one thing, I expect that the (few) batteries in it weren't original,
> but added by someone attempting to see if the vehicle still worked.
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> "#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
> what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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-- 
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Important Aptera news.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Ryan and All,     It'll be online at the NBC website or on the west coast, 
in a few minutes at about 6:12 local time.  It was just a few minutes after it 
was shown that I posted and a lot of time it takes them a couple hours to get 
them online.It was a good vid right talking up the autocycle and solar, until 
the motors overheated at the end.  Hard to post links here as restricted.Jerry 
Dycus
On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 05:54:52 PM PDT, Ryan Fulcher via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I would love to see that clip... But i have been unable to locate any such
video.  If you find a link to it online, or know which NBC station ran it,
that would be great.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 5:34 PM jerry freedomev via EV 
wrote:

>      Hi All,    Just watching NBC Evening News tonight had the Aptera with
> it's CEO? on and they went for a test ride.  The problem was it couldn't
> get up a hill I assume was a longer one, the motors overheated and had to
> pull over  to let them cool down.  That is not good.  Though maybe the
> heavy aero wheel skirts are not helping either if they don't provide
> airflow.    This is a problem with hub motors as at such low RPM they have
> to use massive amps which of course makes massive heat but I'd thought they
> had worked that out.    As I said my last post they need to go back to a
> geared rear motor and get rid of the hub motors like they had when they
> first designed it about 20 yrs ago.  Even then they had problems with
> motor overheating so they gave me a call since I was doing the FreedomEV at
> the time, a similar EV but more conventional looking.  Turned out they had
> geared it too low and increasing the gearing from 4-1 to 7-1, solved it.If
> I was them, I'd be making a backup plan of either front or rear geared
> drives.                      Jerry Dycus
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Important Aptera news.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

     Hi All,    Just watching NBC Evening News tonight had the Aptera with it's 
CEO? on and they went for a test ride.   The problem was it couldn't get up a 
hill I assume was a longer one, the motors overheated and had to pull over  to 
let them cool down.  That is not good.  Though maybe the heavy aero wheel 
skirts are not helping either if they don't provide airflow.    This is a 
problem with hub motors as at such low RPM they have to use massive amps which 
of course makes massive heat but I'd thought they had worked that out.     As I 
said my last post they need to go back to a geared rear motor and get rid of 
the hub motors like they had when they first designed it about 20 yrs ago.   
Even then they had problems with motor overheating so they gave me a call since 
I was doing the FreedomEV at the time, a similar EV but more conventional 
looking.   Turned out they had geared it too low and increasing the gearing 
from 4-1 to 7-1, solved it.If I was them, I'd be making a backup plan of either 
front or rear geared drives.                      Jerry Dycus   

  
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Josh and All,  Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up 
torque and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.   They are great 
in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much smaller as gets help with a 
leg push/pedal for starting up.As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad 
the unsprung weight would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay 
Leno drive vid in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not 
bad.  I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light EVs.I'd 
suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they went complicated 
when the original design with a geared rear motor instead it would cost much 
less to build and better handling, more starting power could be in 
production.Jerry Dycus  
On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for 
pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider 
getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility.  On top of the 
other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first customers, 
that one seems like a notable one.

On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world data.
>
> There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable 
> vehicles.
>
>
> On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
>> So this?
>> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
>>
>> Or this:
>> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  
>> wrote:
>>
>>     I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
>>
>>     I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.
>>
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Re: [EVDL] China fires back and will lose again!

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Lee and All,Remember last time they tried this their market crashed as 
everyone designed REEs out and China ended up with lower prices, lower 
demand.That wasn't the biggest problem though as it signaled China wasn't a 
reliable supplier of anything starting the mass exodus of companies pulling 
their supply chains out of China.In the last 2 yrs that leaving has turned to a 
flood as Xi leads China in Mao thought hurting their big companies and already 
lost about $2T in stock value just in them.China's economy is crashing because 
of this, Xi's policies as everyone that can leaves. Hopefully CATL's tech makes 
it out.As for REEs the Phosphate tailing mountains for Florida, the highest 
points now, are filled with REEs and other metals, etc that just need refining, 
to last us several decades.And E motors don't really need REEs.The real effect 
will be in WTs if any.Jerry Dycus. On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 10:11:41 
AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:  
 
 EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> On 5 Apr 2023 at 18:17, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> 
>> This doesn't bode well for almost all EV makers outside of China:
>> https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/world/asia-pacific/20230405-101753/
> 
> The sensible ones are already on it:
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-frictions-steer-
> electric-automakers-away-rare-earth-magnets-2021-07-19/
> 
> or https://v.gd/SnnDcU

Big corporations tend to favor monoculture solutions (*one* way to do 
everything). Economies of scale, marketing pressures, monopolies, and 
good old "we've always done it this way" tend to push everyone into 
using *one* technology, even when there are viable alternatives. This 
is, after all, why we're still stuck on ICEs despite the alternatives.

But what happens when over-use of that one solution leads to shortages 
in a key component? History shows that corporations tend to force new 
supplies to be exploited (more mining, more environmental destruction, 
more revolutions, even more *war*).

The more rational option is to use something else, or find a better 
alternative. But this only seems to be tried after the brute-force 
methods fail. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "You can always count on 
corporations to do the right thing, after they have exhausted every 
other possibility."

There are plenty of other types of motors that don't need magnets. EVs 
have been using induction and series motors successfully for decades. 
There may be some minor performance reductions (slightly bigger, 
heavier, or a bit less efficient). But we rarely allow the "perfect" to 
drive out the "good enough". For example, silver is a better conductor, 
but we use copper instead because it's cheaper and more available.

Magnets can also be made without rare earths. Material science is 
advancing at a rapid pace, so it is likely that alternatives will be 
found that are just as good, perhaps even better.

Recycling can of course provide another source of supply. Magnets don't 
"evaporate"; instead of being dumped in a landfill, they could be 
recovered and re-used.

Note that all these arguments apply as well to other "scarce" materials, 
like lithium for batteries.

Lee Hart

-- 
"All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them."
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Peri, Bill and All,   I really don't see much problem as solar, CHP, CSP, 
small wind will grow so fast on homes, buildings, businesses as so cheap at 
$.05/kwh, it'll easily match EV demand.I have my first solar array, generator 
as a carport, patio, shed, set to sell for under $1.50/wt before subsidies, is 
under $.05/kwh.  Others will follow as factory made systems take over and allow 
renters to have solar and CHP, small wind.And demand in many places drop as 
efficient products like heat pumps replace resistance heating.EVs themselves 
will drop in weight, be more aero to cut costs and cut energy.  A lot of people 
are leaving cars for e mobility as roads are being made safer for them.Utility 
solar, wind, CSP, pumped hydro, geo, river/tidal, bio/waste/synfuels will keep 
growing.EVs with V2G will save the 100% RE grid as so dam many of them in 10 
yrs as most of this will take to unfold, will solve the storage, on demand 
power problem.For instance just US Tesla EV packs are over 200GWh, more than 
all the grid battery storage in the world. With most EVs with V2G and most 
vehicles EVs, there will not be a storage, on demand generation problem. I see 
in 10 yrs the grid will be dominated by homes, buildings, businesses generating 
RE and storing it in batteries, heat/cold storage along with EVs with V2G, the 
grid storage, on demand generation because it costs a lot less, nicely 
profitable.And as these take their rightful place, will squeeze out, stranding  
FFs even faster as the energy, power moves back to the people.In different ways 
Biden/dems IRA, Putin and OPEC+ have speeded this up 2-3 yrs.Happy Thanksgiving 
everyone,Jerry Dycus
On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:17:44 PM PST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your argument 
works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to see what you 
have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points of 
view.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

>No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
>intelligence.
>
>There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>
> >> Grid capacity problem ? >>>
>
>    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times 
>of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are 
>charged when they are parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive 
>to folks to change off peak and the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.
>
>  Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you 
>  charge from solar? 
>
>    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it 
>out at another. This is what it does. Use it.
>
>    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can 
>draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your EV. It is 
>simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take a reasonable fee 
>for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No 
>brainer.
>
> >>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, 
> >>> etc. <<
>
>    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very 
>nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric 
>heat, and power hungry home appliances.
>
>    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs 
>and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" 
>during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to decide on which 
>of the many methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and 
>offer you an incentive to participate.
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tropica repair, Leak pack swap, offlist

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Ken and All,     Those are simple EV drives any good golf cart mechanic 
should be able to handle as just a double 72vdc version.Isn't there an owners 
group?    Jerry Dycus
On Thursday, April 7, 2022, 07:05:07 PM PDT, Ken McGraw via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Does anyone know any EV specialists in the northern Florida area? I am in St 
Augustine and own a Tropica  that was built in Palm Bay in 1995…..I’m having 
some relay issues to engage the motors……any help is appreciated !
Regards, Ken McGraw

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 7, 2022, at 9:59 PM, jerry freedomev via EV  wrote:
> 
>  Hi Ken, Bob. and All,Thanks for those.Jerry    
>    On Thursday, April 7, 2022, 02:58:17 PM PDT, Ken Olum 
> wrote:  
> 
> I had a good experience from Leo & Sons in Lawrence, MA.  Rather a long
> drive from Connecticut, though.
> 
>                                        Ken
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Leak pack swap, offlist

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Ken, Bob. and All,Thanks for those.Jerry     
On Thursday, April 7, 2022, 02:58:17 PM PDT, Ken Olum 
 wrote:  
 
 I had a good experience from Leo & Sons in Lawrence, MA.  Rather a long
drive from Connecticut, though.

                                        Ken
  
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[EVDL] Leak pack swap, offlist

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Cor, I have a friend in CT that has a nice Leaf  that needs a new pack.   
Do you know of anyone in NE that swaps Leaf packs or the closest to 
CT?Thanks,Jerry Dycus
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Re: [EVDL] Improving EV range aerodynamics when towing a boat or trailer.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Mark and All,There was some but no way to find them.    With a door to get 
to the winch  you wouldn't have to take anything off the front fairing 
version.If lowering the windshield for the cover put  2-3  for/aft bows to hold 
the cover in an aero shape.  But you still need to do the trailer aero.. 
especially the wheel fairings if you want to increase range.  While each is 
small, together they add up.Jerry DycusOn Monday, May 10, 2021, 10:10:27 AM 
PDT, Mark Hanson  wrote:  
 
 Thanks a bunch Jerry.  Do you have a link to a photo of something similar?  I 
don’t want to have to take off a bunch of stuff just to launch the boat.  I 
read best to lower the windshield and put on a tight fitting cover for about 7% 
improvement.  Have a renewable energy day Mark

Sent from my iPhone
On May 10, 2021, at 11:51 AM, jerry freedomev  wrote:

 Hi Mark and All,      You have several options.  First make a v shaped 
fairing just large enough to hide the boat behind coming back to beside the 
windshield with the trailing part pointing straight aft or very slightly 
inward.Likely need a top again coming back to just above the windshield, lower 
in front and all placed with plastic sheet like shower stall sides on a light 
wood frame glued with Locktite waterproof PL3. .In fact needs water to cure and 
I used it to fix a hole in my dinghy while in the water being used!! The 
trailer wheels need pants or similar fairing, just a lot smaller.The axle fold 
over a piece of thin alum sheet most of the way then fit it over the axle and 
tape the 2 ends with double sided tape fair it nicely.Are tires best, lowest 
resistance, highest pressure?   Syn axle bearing lube? A chloroplast or other 
sheet for the underside of the trailer. Are the lights, plate in the 
airstream?Wilder options is a larger shape behind it  2.5' long  with very  
rounded front corners and from widest part gently curving back inward a ' then 
cut off sharply.Another is same size but a  U shaped airfoil with the same 
outside curve of the larger shape.And see what weight you can get rid of in the 
trailer, EV and boat.This should get about 50% of the lost range back.Jerry 
Dycus   
On Friday, May 7, 2021, 05:22:44 AM PDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Folks
When I tow my 6x16 H20 ski boat 1480lbs behind the 3600lb Bolt or 4400lb Tesla, 
watt-hours doubles and associated range is cut in half 

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Improving EV range aerodynamics when towing a boat or trailer.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Mark and All,      You have several options.  First make a v shaped fairing 
just large enough to hide the boat behind coming back to beside the windshield 
with the trailing part pointing straight aft or very slightly inward.Likely 
need a top again coming back to just above the windshield, lower in front and 
all placed with plastic sheet like shower stall sides on a light wood frame 
glued with Locktite waterproof PL3. .In fact needs water to cure and I used it 
to fix a hole in my dinghy while in the water being used!! The trailer wheels 
need pants or similar fairing, just a lot smaller.The axle fold over a piece of 
thin alum sheet most of the way then fit it over the axle and tape the 2 ends 
with double sided tape fair it nicely.Are tires best, lowest resistance, 
highest pressure?   Syn axle bearing lube? A chloroplast or other sheet for the 
underside of the trailer. Are the lights, plate in the airstream?Wilder options 
is a larger shape behind it  2.5' long  with very  rounded front corners and 
from widest part gently curving back inward a ' then cut off sharply.Another is 
same size but a  U shaped airfoil with the same outside curve of the larger 
shape.And see what weight you can get rid of in the trailer, EV and boat.This 
should get about 50% of the lost range back.Jerry Dycus   
On Friday, May 7, 2021, 05:22:44 AM PDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Folks
When I tow my 6x16 H20 ski boat 1480lbs behind the 3600lb Bolt or 4400lb Tesla, 
watt-hours doubles and associated range is cut in half 

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Projects,

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Peter and all,Earth tubes almost can't avoid moisture and molds making air 
versions dangerous to breathe air from them.  You really need a coolant based 
system, not air.Minisplits are a far better solution and some work directly 
from batteries now both in 48vdc and 365vdc nom.. I hear some variable AC ones 
can work from batteries as just rectified anyway for the variable speed 
inverter.I see a future where much of home high power loads run on 365vdc 
nominal directly from home solar, batteries and EVs packs both charging and 
using for home power with cheap DC-DCs pushing it where you want it to go in or 
out of the EV.And as a microgrid sharing bus.Though it's looking like V2G will 
be common next yr with VW and Lucid forcing Tesla, others to compete. .Jerry 
Dycus
 
On Saturday, March 20, 2021, 09:52:16 PM PDT, Peter VanDerWal via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bobby, have you done any research on Earth Tubes?  Not just looking up 
testimonials and anecdotes, but looked for actual studies?

I was really yped about earth tubes for a while until I looked into them and 
found a few studies.  I found a lot of people claiming that all they did was 
dig 2 foot deep trenchs and burried 30 feet of tube and 'Wow, what a difference'
But the actual studies with measurements, etc. tell a different story.  

First of all you need to go a LOT deeper than 2 feeet, 6-8 foot minimum.
One study I found was done in India as I recall, they were studying using Earth 
Tubes to cool a green house.
They used 4 tubes 100 feet long, 8 foot deep spaced 6 feet apart. The fan used 
to drive the air through them consumed 400-450 watts and ran 24 hours a day.  
It was effective at the begining of summer, but by the middle of summer the 
output air temps had climbed to around 80 degrees, the green house temps were 
closer to 90 degrees.

I also read lots of feedback from individuals that were having problems with 
mold due to condensation in the earth tubes.  That is solvable, by making sure 
the tubes angle down, away from the house and you have some way to drain the 
moisture from them.

My mini-split heat pump on the other hand uses about 1/2 the energy per day to 
cool my house and output air temp is around 50-60 degrees an the temp in the 
house stays below 76.  I could get it cooler, but it would use more energy and 
I'm comfortable at that temp.

So the mini-split is more effective, for less energy and a LOT less work to 
install.  If you have to hire someone to dig the trenches, the mini-split is 
probably cheaper.

Sometimes the best solution is NOT the simplest solution.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

March 19, 2021 6:05 PM, "Bobby Keeland via EV"  wrote:

> In a previous posting I said:
>
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Re: [EVDL] Volt module details.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Lee, Dan and All,First I agree BMS is best but one needs to look at all the 
facts.   One I've found is high C rate cells are very stable and last far 
longer the low C cells and only works for Li-ion, not LFP which has completely 
different charge profile.Vs Li-ion is much closer to lead in that voltage is an 
indication of charge allowing much easier monitoring.My Volt pack after 2.8 yrs 
of charging abuse including accidentally charging 20% above rated Kwh  the 
cells are STILL within 1/100 of a Volt of each other.   Using a timer or set 
voltage power supply stops charging abuse.So I'll likely still use the good 
parts that were not shorted out in the crash as I'm frugal. And let's remember 
this was in a Volt for 3 yrs before I got them.So near 7 yrs old and NO 
deviation from 1/100vdc balance. At some point one has to admit that is how it 
is vs previous thoughts.I don't use the Volt BMS as would need several 
different size ones and there are no good choices and those that are, are more 
prone to fail than the cells are data clearly shows on LG cell modules..Since 
NO change  in balance 6 yrs old one should except that will be the trend though 
continue to check and verify.  I expect another 5 yrs from them but we'll 
see.You are correct about temp variations and why I told Dan to use the cooling 
system if nothing else but to keep each cell the same temp in such heavy use.Vs 
I didn't in my 700 lb EV trike pickup  but such light use unlikely any temp 
difference as high rate cells don't make much heat and never  run or charged at 
high rates. Though certainly others with high power and charging.  I'm cooling 
air my Bolt pack because of the way it is set up.So if you cool and limit max 
charge voltage to 4.12/cell,  there is about nil chance of fire.  From Tesla 
data, a medium C rate of 4-6c depending on yr  EV battery life is way beyond 
our dreams at 300k miles.I think the Volt modules might be million mile cells 
their trend says as no detectable degradation in the ones I've went through 5-7 
yrs old.7 yr old ones lab tested every yr showed the same 1k amp output each 
yr.As for costs let's compare them to lead the cost is about the same as as 
well bargained/shopped  lead golfcart batteries but 35% of premium like Yt/kwh 
so even if they only last 5 yrs they are cheaper, superior in every way even 
without a BMS my, other's  data shows.If you pay full list for GC batteries 
Volt modules cost 30% less/kwh.So overall I find the Volt modules a bargain and 
very safe inside voltage, temp specs even without a BMS we shouldn't ignore as 
a great low cost way to upgrade from lead or for a new EV.  Yes you have to 
monitor them but saving $2-5k, that is worth it.I hope the Bolt,  2020 US made 
NIB,   other LG cell modules do as well.Luckily Tesla, some  other BMS have 
been hacked  so you can and should use them.  And anyone using Leaf module MUST 
use a BMS as a low c-rate cell and easily degrades,  gets out of balance.Thus I 
don't use Leaf modules.That's what I have to say, found.Jerry Dycus  
 
 Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> I guess where the Volt pack is so reliable you can go without an electronic
> BMS although it sounds like a terrible idea.

The Volt *does* have a BMS. It's in the battery pack. GM is no fool; 
they would face all sorts of expensive problems under warranty if it 
didn't have one!

When people re-use a Volt pack in their own projects, they might leave 
the BMS in place and still operating; they might leave it in place but 
not fully operating; or they might take it out altogether.

I don't know which option Jerry chose; perhaps he can tell us. It sounds 
like he left the BMS connected to the batteries so it could shunt small 
amounts of excess charging current; but it was *not* connected to the 
controller or charger, so it could not prevent running the cells dead or 
overcharging them with an overly exhuberant charger.

Now... if you're going to go without a BMS, it's better to do so with 
*quality* cells. The automakers do a lot of testing, so their cells are 
much better balanced than random vendors on ebay. They will survive 
better even without a BMS.

But all batteries age. They will gradually drift farther and farther 
apart. With no BMS to "herd" them together, they will eventually wander 
far enough apart to cause problems. And with no BMS to *warn* you that 
there's a problem (no "idiot" light), you're headed for a disaster!

> I suppose one could write a pre-flight checklist like a plane/boat to
> ensure all systems are checked including some kind of manual BMS check.

Jerry did say he had one of my batt-bridges on his pack. This is a 
quick-n-easy LED indicator that lights if the voltage of one half of the 
pack doesn't match the other half (indicating that something is wrong). 
It tells you something is wrong; but it doesn't stop you from driving 
anyway.

And like David Roden said, Jerry was acting as his own BMS -- a manual 
BMS, if you like. I used to do that, 

Re: [EVDL] Volt module details.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Lee and All, While I agree on most cells, experience in the Volt/LG  
modules says it can be viable if kept within spec and for 2.5 yrs mine have 
stayed within $.01vdc cell to cell says it's alright financially.First they 
cost similar to lead but as lighter you need 30% less Kwh.Next the BMSs 
available are not reliable and can double costs so adding them likely would 
increase danger, not cut it.I've heard of 100s of BMS failures killing modules, 
packs but no Volt Module failures without them.  None of my 8? customers have 
reported problems. Just by not going over 4.12/vpc and not under 3.2vpc plus a 
Batt Bridge to alert on any bad connection or imbalance along with every 3 
months checking for balance you can have lithium lightweight, performance at 
the cost of lead and likely much more life.Just for checking voltages and if 
needed which I've never had to do, balance manually.And there are 100s  if not 
1,000s of people doing this  now judging by how hard it is to get Volt packs in 
Florida now as I have customers waiting.I just hope my NIB Bolt 2020  US made 
modules in my S-10 conversion upgrade work as well. At brand new they are 
sitting within .02/vdc between all cells. I'll report when I get 6 months in on 
them or iif they get out of balance.Jerry Dycus

On Saturday, March 6, 2021, 10:28:11 AM PST, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Alan Arrison wrote:
>> You've heard it before, but here it is again.
>>
>> Proceed without a BMS at your own peril.
>>
>> Best case, you ruin some expensive cells.
>>
>> Worst case, you burn your house down.

I agree completely. Running lithiums without a BMS is like running your 
house wiring without circuit breakers or fuses. When things work, 
everything is fine. Look at all the money you saved!

But if/when something goes wrong, your house burns down.

Consider: You are going to use your lithiums until they die. And *when* 
they die, one of their failure modes is *fire*.

It's nice if a BMS can prolong battery life, or give you lots of fancy 
displays and blinkin-lights. But its most fundamental job is to prevent 
a fire.

Lee Hart

-- 
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] My EV trike pickup space was occupied by a car. Fun with Volt packs

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Dan and All,Volt modules are very forgiving, robust assuming you stay 
within voltage, temp specs.  A major advantage is not having the cost, hassle 
of a BMS which can increase cost 50-100%.In the trike I just paralleled the 
48vdc sections in the 4kwh module and fused each section/string in your case 
and ground because these suckers put out 1k amps/section in parallel.I make 
fuses from solid copper wire from 16-14gge from the battery terminals, just 
make sure they fail safely.   I'm using a negative and positive 14gge ones on 
my S-10 Bolt module pack  and haven't popped .Make sure they are about the same 
string voltage when connecting them and check each cell voltage before anything 
to make sure they are within 2/100th of a volt of each other showing they are 
balanced.  If not you'll have to balance any cell to that standard. and note 
which one/s were off.   I've never had a cell out of that spec or ever had to 
balance one in the 10 or so packs I've gone through, In fact never outside of 
1/100th a volt difference which impressed me.  I just hope the Bolt modules do 
as well...On your high voltage you need special DC rated ones.  I'd drop amp 
size down until one blows then use the next size up.  Some 100amp fuses can 
take 300-400amps to actually pop.In a boat be careful that much voltage in that 
damp. Being wet you can get shocked by 12vdc, 162vdc would hurt or worse so use 
best practices.As one who designs, builds boats try to use the largest diameter 
prop you can turning as slow as it can you can get 2-3x the thrust from the 
same Kw by being more efficient, less prop frictional losses.Use a multihull or 
on a planning boat, wide, lots of planning area of the lightest weight..For 
that kind of continuous power you need the cooling.  For nothing else but to 
keep each cell the same temp and within temp spec.Note if you are boating, 
anchored  in tidal or river 2.5mph + currents you can regen/charge your 
batteries from many PM or A/C systems, regening.   At that HP I assume it's 
AC.If a big heavy boat without being optimized, range is likely to be very 
short.Stock iirc they put out 137kw to power the Volt motor and racers get 
300kw,1k amps per string.  They use 2 packs with Tesla controllers, rear drives 
mostly.Jerry Dycus
On Friday, March 5, 2021, 06:31:25 AM PST, Dan Baker  
wrote:  
 
 Thanks Jerry for your practical use of parallel pack info using Volt batts!  
Bummer on the trike - glad you are ok!  Did you just use a fixed charge 
connected to all the packs , no diodes or contactors?  It seems more ppl are 
using Volt packs without any BMS than those that use one. I'm going to be 
squeezing these Volt packs a little harder than stock though- think the cells 
might get out of balance more?   The pack is going in a big boat and I would 
like to see 100hp (or ~ 450 amps @ 162V) for a few fun pulls.  Boats are like 
cars except they are always going uphill, no regen or a break in power until 
the cruise is over.  So yes going to use their built in cooling if possible. 
Thanks againDan    
On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:04 AM jerry freedomev  wrote:

 Hi All,Tuesday I was slowing for a light and a compact  hit me at  at 50mph 
from the rear in my 700lb EV trike pickup and unlike the one 20 yrs ago in my E 
woody which only took $40 to put back on the road, the trike was totaled.Again 
good engineering using my rear tires as a crash load absorber  and me going 
25mph took the crash impact  greatly  cutting the impact forces to where I 
could hold onto the handlebars and ride it out fairly safely.It worked great 
with 4 Volt  2kwh 48vdc banks/sections  in parallel without a BMS for 2.5 yrs.  
Sadly they did not survive.I got my new to me S-10 EV going and cutting the 
voltage of parallel Bolt modules but will have to limit it to 120vdc so only 
36kw instead of the 144vdc 48kwh I wanted.  So today I get to test it's range 
so I know what it'll do on a single charge and build the aero camper to cut 
weight and improve aero to .25cd or better.   One problem is the Curtis 1231C  
whines all the time vs cutting out after it gets out of low speed.   Also 
whines when stopped.  Any advice to stop these or what the problem might 
be?Thanks, Jerry Dycus
  
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Re: [EVDL] My EV trike pickup space was occupied by a car. Fun with Volt packs

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi All,Tuesday I was slowing for a light and a compact  hit me at  at 50mph 
from the rear in my 700lb EV trike pickup and unlike the one 20 yrs ago in my E 
woody which only took $40 to put back on the road, the trike was totaled.Again 
good engineering using my rear tires as a crash load absorber  and me going 
25mph took the crash impact  greatly  cutting the impact forces to where I 
could hold onto the handlebars and ride it out fairly safely.It worked great 
with 4 Volt  2kwh 48vdc banks/sections  in parallel without a BMS for 2.5 yrs.  
Sadly they did not survive.I got my new to me S-10 EV going and cutting the 
voltage of parallel Bolt modules but will have to limit it to 120vdc so only 
36kw instead of the 144vdc 48kwh I wanted.  So today I get to test it's range 
so I know what it'll do on a single charge and build the aero camper to cut 
weight and improve aero to .25cd or better.   One problem is the Curtis 1231C  
whines all the time vs cutting out after it gets out of low speed.   Also 
whines when stopped.  Any advice to stop these or what the problem might 
be?Thanks, Jerry Dycus
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[EVDL] My new to me 95 S-10 EV runs!!

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Jay and All,    I'm the one who bought Jay's S-10 without the batteries and 
today I put 24kwh/144vdc nom  of new Bolt modules, 4 36vdc nom  in it and It 
started right up!   ;^)  Thanks Jay!  Nice work.  I put my stimulus check to 
good use.  ;^) I'll be in the title office first thing Monday morning!!    My 
plan is to lighten it up by ditching the tilt bed and making a light aero 
camping shell, etc to cut aero to about .24CD and add another 24 kwh once I 
build new battery boxes for hopefully a 200wthr/mile 230 mile range.  But 120 
miles hopefully will do for now.  Just need to secure them and ready to 
ride!!The stock ICE weight was 2800lbs and I hope to cut that by 2-300 lbs, get 
some used Prius tires, change the trans, diff fluids if needed, etc.It's got 
4.2kw  L2 charging once I get the voltages changed and I have another 2kw 
charger to add 30mph of charging total.Later maybe DC charging.I'll make the 
camper convertible from cargo to camping in wood/epoxy of course..  At that 
long to charge I'll need a place to sleep on trips plus at any time because of 
my legs, back I will need to lie down.  And I'll be able to drive my wheelchair 
into it which I need for long events when they  come back.  I'm ok for short 
times. I need where to find a quart or 2 of heat sink compound to heat sink the 
battery  modules.  Anyone know a reasonable price place to get such?And anyone 
want a free  tilting short S-10 bed in good shape and/or camper top?    It's 
just SE of Tampa.I got a box of pactracker? battery side modules for free for 
6vdc lead batteries.Starting the new yr right!!Jerry Dycus



Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 05:09:36 AM PST, Jay Summet via EV 
 wrote: 
 
 I just sold my S-10 conversion but kept the 2013 Nissan Leaf Modules. 
I've got all of the miniBMS units (plus a lot of broken ones and some 
working spares) from them, so minimum 32 cells worth.

  
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a second bearing to forklift motors

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Glenn and All,     I found this out when I bought a bunch of Crown pallet 
jack forklift motors.  There are several choices.  First is just buy a bearing 
endplate for that motor size, brand, likely 6.7".  Around $70 last I checked.   
 I being cheap just use a drill press and a hole saw to make space for the 
bearing.  Then I set it in epoxy on the motor so it is perfectly centered, let 
cure.    With machine tools  it should be easy to make a centered tight fit  
for the standard bearing, likely a 1'' inside, 2" outside one.          Jerry 
Dycus

On Monday, November 2, 2020, 07:08:45 PM PST, Glenn Brooks via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello all,

I hope this is not to rudimentary a question:  Is there a best practice 
document, or “how to” out there somewhere  that describes adding a second 
bearing to a forklift drive motor?  

My local used forklift motor reseller says most of his motors are single 
bearing motors, and adding a second bearing entails to much machining for him 
to do.

Well, I have a machine shop at home, but no idea what is involved, as Iam new 
to the EV world.

So any tips or suggestions for retrofitting a second bearing would be most 
welcome.

 (BTW, my initial thought is why not just put an external pillow block, or 
flange bearing, around the output shaft..but, no idea what is the proper method 
to retrofit.]

Thanks!

Glenn B.

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [EVDL] Charging lithium, Bento , eGO cycle surprising voltage after 14 miles.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

          Hi Jay and All,                While that is true of LiFe, it isn't 
as much for li-ion which has a similar charging range as lead.  Full is about 
4.2vdc/cell and I only go down to  3.2vdc though others go to 3vdc is the 
different like between 10.5 and 11vdc, just not much power left to matter going 
that deep, not worth the possible damage.                 Helping, selling 
modules for a Solectria E-10 upgrade  I was able to match the voltage where the 
stock lead charger can handle charging though a bit slow the last 5% and 
doubling range at less cost than new lead for the old range.                    
With Volt module versions I don't even use a BMs for 2 yrs now just charging to 
that limit and not going under 3.4vdc and cells still balanced within .02vdc of 
each other even with overcharging abuse.  BTW you can get 20% more capacity 
overcharging as when I had to drive off the overcharge would be 12 miles to get 
back to full charge.  I wouldn't on purpose but in an emergency I would as no 
damage I can tell yet              I wouldn't  try any f this  with other 
brands.  I only use  LG EV cells units because of this as proven.               
 On Valance modules they have never met spec and die early as likely a 1c 
limited rate, just too much internal resistance it seems.  I've found high c 
rate cells get far longer life like 16c Volt/LG  modules that after 6 yrs show 
no measurable degradation.                Note Tesla's biggest failure was 
making low c energy cells for early Powerwalls they had to stop making until 
improved.  Give me high 4c and up cells or none at all.                  Jerry 
Dycus       
On Monday, May 25, 2020, 05:29:58 AM PDT, Jay Summet via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 The discharge curve for Lithium batteries is very different from Lead. 
(it is very flat). There is almost zero sag, but at some point the BMS 
will (hopefully!) detect a low cell voltage and disconnect your output, 
causing the whole scooter to stop without warning. (If it fails to do 
so, the lowest cell will get reversed and die in a potential blaze of 
glory...)

You can expect the range to be higher than lead batteries, but the "drop 
off" to be sharper at the end. If you are monitoring voltage, it will be 
in the "nominal" range until right before you run out of juice, at which 
point it will start to drop very quickly.  So there is less warning of a 
"low tank" unless you have an amp hour (or watt hour) counter and know 
the capacity of your battery.

Jay

On 5/24/20 11:51 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> After riding 14 miles in two trips over two days or more and letting the bike 
> sit for days starting voltage 26.38vdc or higher. A few hours ago voltage 
> 25.97vdc.  Now 25.90. These Valance 40 ah lithium do not act like lead. Lead 
> 40 ah will give 20 miles. Will my batteries soon drop precipitously? I guess 
> I should ride down to 25vdc and check how far I have gone. This is carrying a 
> 240 pound person and up my hill twice. The batteries put out 30 amps 
> continuous. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] V2g for DIY EV's

[jerry freedomev via EV]

      Hi Robert and All,             I'm starting a solar shed business, as 
movable cuts a lot of permitting, engineering, etc costs of a roof version, and 
checking with my utility, TECO,  a net metering meter is free which reminds me 
I need to order one installed to test, demonstrate  my systems as almost ready. 
 Sadly my property is old oak forest so solar, wind  not viable.             If 
I can get a return call for tech details  there are great new inverters out 
there that control solar, EV charging, back up generator, grid tie, home 
battery charging.               If it has changeable battery voltage high, low 
limits you can just hook up Volt modules to them as a low cost  powerwall type. 
 GroWatt is one that might.          So check with your utility as you might be 
pleasantly surprised like I was. If a bad utility, start working to change it.  
Remember every town, etc almost has every 20 yrs or so has  the right to change 
utilities during right of way lease contact talks.           With that the 
right of way holders can get whatever they want like 100% clean power over a 
short time or start their own co-op, muni,  microgrids, etc.         Those in 
Florida cost 30% less that IOU/investor owned utilities that don't have the 
corporate parasites cost, just a few members part time board to oversee things 
and some subcontrators that do the billing, grid, etc work..          All my 
lightweight EVs have always been V2H as a back up generator along with a home 
pack and some panels I can throw up if I need more than 2 days my EVs, home 
pack provides.          Don't know if mentioned  a solar inverter  can turn 
your DIY EV into net metering just picking  one that fits the voltage and using 
timers, etc to control it depending on your power rate schedule, needs.         
     Jerry Dycus
On Monday, May 25, 2020, 01:02:38 PM PDT, Willie via EV  
wrote:  
 
 

On 5/25/20 2:47 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>> all meters except NET meters will charge you kWh no matter
>> which way the disk goes.
> 
> ...except for the old mechanical meters, which ran backwards when you 
> generated power. The utilities have "fixed" that little problem with 
> their smart-aleck meters.

One of my neighbors has long contended that the utility charged absolute 
value of energy flow.  Just as Robert contends.  The neighbor adopted 
the strategy of trying to never over produce; that is use all PV energy 
onsite rather than feeding the grid.  With my first meter, I found that 
to be not true and never tried to restrain my over production.  I could 
watch the wheel come to a stop and then rotate the other direction as my 
PV power increased.  I never had the patience to try to read the 
rotating digits.  I first came to the attention of my utility when I 
started having a day or more of excess production and my meter readings 
declined from day to day rather than increased.  THEN, they put in a two 
way meter that had accumulators for power both directions.

I'm sure there is a lot of variability from utility to utility and with 
the meters that they use.  But, I believe Robert's statement is 
incorrect for at least some cases.

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Re: [EVDL] Last straw with prius battery pack!

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Willie, KO and All,        Thanks Willie as I was confused too.        If I 
had that VW Fastback conversion I'd be putting in used Volt, etc lithium 
modules as could make it 150 mile range easily.   It's light, fairly aero so 
optimized, 24kwh should get him there.  16kwh for 100+ miles.      That's 
600lbs of Volt or 300lbs of Tesla modules  at 24kwh..      And switch the 
Prestolite with something more efficient. There are some great roll, brush on 
paints for boats to make it look great cheaply.        I've been looking for 
such a glider, VW bug, fast/sqback, older van especially , S-10  etc here in 
Tampa to do just that as have most of the parts, battery.  Any dead ones in 
Florida that need a home give me a call.      Jerry Hi Bento.On Thursday, 
May 21, 2020, 04:51:03 AM PDT, Willie via EV  wrote:  
 
 

On 5/21/20 4:19 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> On 21 May 2020 at 2:54, K O via EV wrote:
> 
>> Looking for a used ready-made ASAP.
> 
> Sorry, I can't figure out what you're asking for here.  A used ready-made
> what?
> 
> Prius?
> Prius battery?
> OEM EV?
> 
> The EV Album link doesn't really help, unfortunately.

Come on, David!  Show some imagination!

In a style not atypical of many EVDL posters, KO tells us he is an urban 
beekeeper who finds himself with a conversion that does not (no longer?) 
meet his needs.  He holds out hope that the conversion has a future but 
immediately needs a reliable BEV.

I suggest that he consider an imiev.  It should meet his stated speed 
and range needs and should be more reliable that many other similar used 
BEVs.  Before he declares an imiev to be too small, he should measure.

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Re: [EVDL] OT Possible way to get rid of COVID-19 , colds, flu...

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi David and ALL,  The only problem with your way is it overwhelms the health 
system fast which it can't handle causing many more to die.   Since you'd do 
the hot sleeping at first symptom, I do it to stop my suffering anyway as any 
flu, cold, virus is no fun  and well before one should be calling doctors and 
hospitals, it's hard for it to do harm if you stay hydrated and temp doesn't 
get too high..  And works for me with whatever virus, other infections so if 
works, solves the problem.  You'll know in the morning or after 8hrs of hot 
sleep.Though if testing is widely available without hurting doctors, nurses, 
patients that truly need it now and being done for surveillance anyway, yes get 
tested will likely be 6 weeks away or longer.. Personally I'd rather get rid of 
whatever it is tonight  than getting tested and suffer days which won't be 
widely available in the way I said for 1.5 months at least.So unless you need a 
hospital to breathe, we for the next 6-8 weeks at least, are on our own to keep 
from overwhelming the system for those that could die and healthcare workers 
that are going to get sick should have first priority.  Plus tell which health 
workers are sick before they infect others like at the bad nursing home where 
so many died.Too bad Trump didn't buy the WHO tests and still hasn't or let 
since Jan1 uni, hospitals and the private sector make tests were begging to do, 
until last week.We'd have had all the tests we needed and 10% of the problem if 
Trump hadn't stopped them.. Luckily most ignored him and did the work anyway 
which is where the big jump in testing is coming from finally.Jerry Dycus
On Thursday, March 19, 2020, 10:10:43 AM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I'm not saying this advice is right or wrong, but as with any similar 
situation, a lot of misinformation and speculation is going round.  Be 
careful.

If you get sick, please don't assume (1) that it's C-19; and (2) that if it 
is, you can treat it yourself.  Call the doctor's office or hospital and get 
going, get tested, get treated.  This virus can give you pneumonia,  which a 
friend of mine who had it (pneumonia) said is unsettlingly similar to 
drowning. 

As for the idea of converting Tesla to make ventilators, it's an interesting 
idea, and we need ventilators pretty badly.  I have some doubts that many 
people will be buying Evs or any vehicles for a while.  I guess the 
precedent would be all the factories converted to airplane production during 
the second world war.  I have no idea whether it would really help this 
time.

Elon Musk often tackles such challenges with intensity and enthusiasm, so he 
just might be able to make it go.  His drive is one thing I admire about 
him.  But things didn't work out so well with his submarine idea for the 
flooded cave rescue in Thailand, so maybe some caution is called for.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] OT Possible way to get rid of COVID-19 , colds, flu...

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi All,       Sorry about OT but this seems too important not to post now.  
This is an e mail I sent to a friend might be of help to you, your family.  If 
any doctors want to comment please do as I'm not one, just has long worked for 
me.

Hi John,  I actually have a possible cure for virus' that worked again last 
week.  Your immune system is turned on by high body temp, thus why you get a 
fever.  What I do if I get sick is wrap up as hot as can stand when I  go to 
bed and when I wake up 90% of the time I've been well  for 3 decades now.  
Sweating is good so make sure you stay hydrated so you can sweat  safely.My 
sister-in-law I care for gave it to me after she caught it from a doctor's 
appointment.  I got rid of it the first night..  We match all the symptoms 
except fever. So if you, your wife gets sick from any body infection, 
especially virus', maybe give it a try.  And don't take aspirin, etc fever 
reducers as you want a high temp unless gets too high say 103f and then only 
enough to lower it some.. And remember many drugs have a fever reducer mixed 
it.Though for this virus they say don't come in until 104F which is rather high 
for people over 50, hard to do..  As we age our bodies need more help as 
doesn't react as well as when young .
Jerry

  
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Re: [EVDL] increasing MC range, New EV, was watts per mile ev motorcycle vs prius

[jerry freedomev via EV]

          Hi  Bill and All,                 As you know there is a solution to 
long range MCs and it is aerodynamics.    As the E Tracer, others have showed.  
               By  turning the brick into a clean airflow you can double range 
at speed for about 15lbs of plastic in the form of a real aero fairing and most 
any E MC.                It is far cheaper, lighter than more batteries and 
amazes me EV MC companies,  people have put them on saving $1,000s in battery.  
            The only thing keeping me back from building a 200 mile range aero 
2 wheel streamliner is 4-5 Tesla battery modules as my Volt modules are too 
heavy, take too much space, can't be used.               Though putting a full 
aero  body on my newest E Woody trike MC that does have the room for Volt 
modules and can put up to 300 miles worth, likely just 180 miles though.   Not 
only room for more batteries but enough to lay down, sleep in for when my back 
gives out.               I'm putting 2  K91 motors from a Crown Pallet Jack  in 
and chain driven to a golf cart transaxle with 1 to move the trike and the 
second  to tow an aero trailer  at 65mph long distance power.                
The GC motor didn't have the power, top speed only 45mph and was too much 
unsprung weight giving a harsh ride.  By putting the motors on the 'firewall'  
it gives me the gearing, power I need at less unsprung weight, more comfort.    
            My other news is just got a near free 26' Chrysler sailboat that a 
marina seized for non payment but no one bid.              I'm turning it into 
a solar boat to live on as I move to St Pete.  Luckily I already have lead 
batteries from a lead to lithium conversion I  did and some free solar panels, 
other things I'll have little money in it.             You can now buy a well 
founded liveaboard size sailboat in Florida ready to sail for under $3k and 
ones like mine that need work, much, much  less.                Many have bad 
motors ready to switch to E drive and if you anchor in a tidal current, can 
recharge your batteries with it.   Look on craigslist for them.                 
   Jerry Dycus                        
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 09:33:22 AM UTC, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 11/13/2019 8:44 PM, Paul Compton via EV wrote:
> An small motorcycle and rider has roughly the same drag at 60mpg as a small 
> car.

     This is the main problem with typical motorcycles. They are 
basically a brick, aerodynamically. This is compounded by the lack of 
space and load carrying ability for a decent battery pack. Very 
difficult to make an electric bike with decent range.

Bill D.

>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 05:02, evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:
>>
>> I seen add on battery packs for cars and am surprised  how small they
>> are,  so that must mean watts per mile is way lower.
>>
>> My scooter uses 40 amps  at 72 volt s and 40 mph . so whats my watts per
>> mile ?
>>
>> verses like a leaf at 40 mph ?
>>
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Re: [EVDL] E-Motorcycle battery source

[jerry freedomev via EV]

          Hi Mathew and All,              That will be hard and your only real 
choice is Tesla 5kwh, 24vdc modules as the only ones compact, light enough to 
put 20kwh in a MC at a reasonable price, about $200/kwh.   Others are heavier, 
more space.  Think about running them at 96vdc though for more power, etc.      
     If you need more, a single wheel aero trailer with very low CG could work. 
 Or a 2wh ultralight aero micro camper, etc.            Having built a longer, 
72"  wheelbase low CG streamliner rolling chassis test mule to check handling, 
etc , it quickly became apparent they would be the only choice for space 
reasons.               So I'm waiting to afford  20kwh of them for a 200 mile 
range Streamliner is all that is holding me back.              Which is too bad 
as I have 20kwh of Volt modules but too much space, double the weight of Tesla 
modules.  Great for my 3wh EVs though.   ;^)               Leaf modules while 
look good are heavier, more space in this case  and you have to watch how much 
capacity they have left, which increases their space, weight/kwh, the lower the 
capacity is.              Understand regular MC tires have 4x the drag of EV 
tires.  Luckily the rear can be replaced with a car EV tire, 14" car equals a 
17" MC IIRC and overpressure, maybe a tire lathe  to round out some.            
    And the front can be selected and run at high pressure.  These can over 
double your range as I found out on the test mule with both normal MC tires, 
power required was very bad. Much worse than much larger subcars I build/t..    
          And nothing as cheaply can do more for MC range than a good aero 
fairing can double your range at 65mph.  All these are much cheaper than more 
batteries.  In EVs it is the details that count and best way to increase 
performance at lower cost or even make it possible in your case, is lowering 
the drag first.            Jerry Dycus On Friday, September 6, 2019, 
01:41:28 AM UTC, Matthew Pitts via EV  wrote:  
 
 Good evening (or morning, depending on where you are),

I'm looking for a source for 48v batteries for an E-Motorcycle project I'm 
going to work on this winter. I would prefer some form of Lithium chemistry 
battery, with somewhere between 20 and 40 kWh capacity. Any suggestions?

Matthew Pitts 


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Re: [EVDL] 1978 City Car project (near Baltimore)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

        Hi John and All,              Peter is on the CitiCar yahoo group as 
are the body panels that were bought by another member to sell.   Anyone 
interested in or own one,  should join that group for help.                     
          Jerry Dycus

On Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 03:12:50 AM UTC, John Neiswanger via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Peter Crisitello at Rutgers University was keeping a roster of Citicars 
up through the Tropicas.  I think he also had some spare parts at one 
time though last I heard he lost most of his storage space and needed to 
consolidate what he had.

Respectfully,
John

John K Neiswanger
Industrial Electronics

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 9/2/2019 2:56:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1978 City Car project (near Baltimore)

>Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>>Is there any inerest in restoring an old 1978 Seabring Vanguard City Car
>>>(cheese wedge).
>
>EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>Not from me; I've been there and did that once already.  ;-)
>
>I'd be interested. Though they are rude and crude, they have a certain 
>nostalgic charm. There is something attractive about a car so simple that you 
>can understand and fix just about anything yourself.
>
>I have a special reason: Minnesota passed a law banning home built NEVs. "Home 
>built" means anything not built by the one NEV manufacturer in Minnesota.
>
>But the CitiCar was built and titled as an ordinary car -- *not* as an NEV. So 
>they can still be licensed and driven in Minnesota. :-)
>
>>The body... That's the big question mark.  ABS doesn't handle UV very
>>well, and despite the catalyzed acrylic enamel that was supposed to
>>protect them, after 40 years the bodies are pretty much crumbling off
>>of C-cars that have sat out in the sun... AFAIK, there are few or no
>>new body parts left.
>
>Actually, it's not that hard to make new body panels. They were just 
>vacuum-formed over simple wood molds. The hood blew off my ComutaVan (I forgot 
>to latch it down), so I made another one.
>
>I also fixed cracks and leaks with a simple hot-air welder. Basically, this is 
>just a heat gun. Use it to melt plastic rod of the same material and color 
>into the gap.
>
>If necessary, the panels are all basically flat. I've seen restorations that 
>simply screwed plywood panels onto the aluminum frame to make a new body.
>
>Lee Hart
>
>-- I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.
>    -- Albert Einstein
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] V2H DIY

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Bob and All,       A solar string inverter can do those voltages to the 
grid V2G by net metering and fairly cheap.        You just need to make a 
control/timers, etc  when you want it to work  and a DC port comm card to close 
the battery contactor giving battery access.     Or buy a 1999-2000 Ford E 
Ranger and convert it to lithium has V2G stock as did some other EVs then with 
the ACPropulsion controller/charger/V2G in 1 unit.      A company in San Diego 
is making some for Nissan but forgot their name might sell them retail.         
           Jerry Dycus.
On Monday, July 29, 2019, 12:18:33 AM UTC, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 > So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible,
> to buy a system to power a home with a dead grid from an EV?

It is trivial and only about $150 to buy almost anywhere a 1.5 to 2 kW 12v
inverter than can run a house at that power level almsot continuously for a
day or days or a week, depending on if it is a hybrid, a plugin hybrid or a
Tesla.

But your lament is right-on!  There is no existing market for 100-330 HV
VDC input 60 Hz inverters in any power class except for extremely rare high
voltage UPS that run on 16 or so batteries.  But they are so rare and so
highly prized for jusst this application that they simply cost too much
even on ebay.

The reason they dont existin quantity, is because there is no consumer
market for that power level and input characteristic.  But they will!
There is a company that makes them for the Prius.  200-240 VDC input and 3
kW split phase 240 VAC output.

What I describe in my book is a hacker alternative.  That is, modify an
existing 3 kW 12 or 24V invreter by recognizing that all the DC inversion
is done at DC, and chopping to AC is only in the output stage.  So the 3 kW
DC/DC inverter boosts the 12 or 24v to around +/- 170 VDC  Then that gets
sent to a MOSFET H-bridge and choped into 60 Hz sine or modified sine.

My idea is to simply bring in +/- 170 VDC at 8 amps from my solar array,
feed it to the existing high voltage section.  and let the inverter draw
all its power from those rails instead of from the 12 or 24v battery.  The
battery has to remain connected so that you dont have to re-invent all the
inverter control circuits, but let the bulk of the current come from the
arrays.

A great hack... someday when I retire
But all the circuits are there.  Just need somneone to hack them to our use.

bob, WB4APR
Author: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html

On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 7:59 PM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/28/19 4:10 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > So, the claim that Wallbox is the only one with V2G is... misleading.
> >
> > Full disclosure: I work for a company that is owned by Enel, designing
> > innovative EV charging solutions.
> >
> >
> https://www.enel.com/media/news/d/2016/08/energy-on-wheels-v2g-innovation-renewables-and-grids
>
> Thanks for the additional information, Cor!
>
> So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible, to buy a system to
> power a home with a dead grid from an EV?
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid, solar EV charging

[jerry freedomev via EV]

             Hi Paul and All,                  I've done cost effective RE 
offgrid for 45 yrs now replacing diesel generators, not that hard or expensive 
if done right.You can buy a solar system kit or parts online for under $1/wt 
grid tie too.  Then hire a local electrician to permit, do what you don't want 
to.                 For offgrid you need 2 sources of power which for me was 
either small wind or tidal I produced in the 80s  plus an engine preferably run 
on RE fuel, normally an existing  diesel run on used filtered veg oil, B-100.   
This engine ran a DC generator and fast charged the battery at 200+ amps 
cutting run time and fuel use as run at it's most efficient RPM/load.           
      Another engine, fuel choice is go cart racing motors can be set up for 
ethanol, methanol, butanol, synfuels or other  gasoline range RE fuel.          
    Not sure why people don't still use lead as so much cheaper and all the 
equipment is geared to lead.  I don't use Volt modules for storage because 
there is no equipment for lithium yet in the US.             I only use about 
.5 day of lead and rarely have to use the generator with wind, solar.  Tidal 
happened 2-4x/day so even less battery needed.              By the time you 
need a new pack in 5-7 yrs on golf cart batteries,  lithium will have dropped 
in price to reasonable, viable.                If up north the generator 
becomes a CHP unit providing both power and heat done with a water 
cooled/marine diesel run on b-100, used veg oil again fast charging batteries.  
               Those in windy areas should consider a marine/boat  wind 
generator or an 'axialflux wind generator'  you can build yourself or buy. 
parts or finished.                 Maybe start with some PV panels, some used 
EV lead batteries, I'm using the best from an EV pack I sold Volt modules to 
replace,  with an inverter and run parts of your home with.                 Or 
some panels with APS microinverters that if you put on a plug, you need no or 
lesser permits to go grid tie.  Now PV prices have dropped I'll likely start 
using these to make plug and play systems to sell at about $1.25/wt, would have 
been $1/wt with tariffs as the only way to get off FFs is put in the equipment 
to replace FFs.  By driving down the price makes that happen faster.  I hope 
many copy this.              Charging an EV from solar is fair easy, cheap if 
you can tap the DC port, you can charge directly with just a timer and a higher 
than battery voltage solar output.  With panels under $.40/wt well shopped 2kw 
of solar is about $1k.   And could be portable and left at work to charge while 
you work, even shade the car as a carport.                Or a lower voltage 
solar with an upverter to the EV pack charging voltage with a max voltage cut 
off.  All that is needed is how to signal the DC port to turn on so it can be 
charged.  Anyone know how it is done or where the specs are?                    
              Jerry Dycus
On Monday, July 15, 2019, 12:59:59 AM UTC, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 a $250 generator won’t power your house. Maybe a few appliances.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> WHen you go grid-tie solar, nothing changes.  you do the same thing you did
> before.  A $250 generator and a $15 can of  gas is far more cost effective
> to produce a few dollars worth of power outage comapred to a $13,000
> battery to produce $2 worth of power (a 14 hour outage)...  Bob
> 
>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:05 PM paul dove  wrote:
>> 
>> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
>> with net metering so does you solar.
>> 
>> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power

  
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Re: [EVDL] Displacement speed will increase range. Planning will reduce range. Was Alibaba batteries.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

      Hi Ron, Lawrence and All,           While foils do work they can be 
dangerous if they hit anything and lots of things floating in the water column 
to hit like barrels, old docks, tree limbs, etc just under the surface, as is 
running aground can pitch you head first off it.            Getting on one from 
the beach is hard as is launching them as require deeper water.  They tend to 
collect plastic, seaweed, etc killing performance..  A big navy 137' one hit a 
whale off Miami at 50mph sending the crew to the hospital, the boat to the 
scarp yard and I'm sure it didn't  help the whale.           Displacement is 
the best way to low drag  and the best way is having a 8 to 10-1 length to beam 
ratio, a cat or trimaran is best.  Note the fastest navy ships like aircraft 
carriers are in this range.           Or one can make a 24x3' or 32'x4' wide 
voyaging  'canoe' .         Why is fatter ones make large bow waves the boat 
has to get through but the narrow ones cut through easily without making a bow 
wave of any amount so it can go right through to higher speeds without planning 
at lower power.         Now if under 6mph works for you, monohull sailboats 
make great E boats especially solar and especially if you want to live aboard 
with solar able to  give you A/C even.         Note if doing an inboard E drive 
with A/C or PM motors and regen  one can anchor in a tide or river current or 
while sailing  and use that power to recharge the batteries for drive or living 
power.           Planning is possible but range is short as too much battery 
weight hurts and at some point, stops  planning.            Even gas planning 
powerboats are limited range to about 400miles even with  large tanks.          
               Jerry Dycus
On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 01:33:01 PM UTC, Ron Porter via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 For efficient hulls, look to high performance human-powered craft. For 
example, some of the same people behind human powered flight had a project for 
a human powered hydrofoil. I believe it was called the flying fish. I first 
read of it in Scientific American.

From memory, it reached speeds of over 20 knots with a single person pedalling. 
Even if that was an Olympic class athlete, that is no more than low single 
digits for horsepower.

I've recently started looking into this again for one of my next boat builds, 
not least because of my realisation that it could be a nearly perfect solution 
to high performance, long range, long duration electric watercraft. And with 
pedals in the mix, getting stranded without a charge is much less of an issue.
-- 
Ron

On June 29, 2019 9:18:49 p.m. CST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:
>I am not sure if your hull was designed to plane but if you force 10
>mph you are wasting energy. All your pontoons are good for is around
>7mph. I suspect you may double your range at lower speed.  Lawrence
>Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] 2019 Lithium Recommendations

[jerry freedomev via EV]

              Hi Cory and All,                   Understand the max voltage on 
the 12vdc module is only 12.5 vdc so likely unless you changed it and I don't 
know how you would, , it'll be badly overcharged.  They are robust and likely 
survive a few months but if the charging voltage is  not fixed, they will die.  
                And low temp charging isn't good either.                  Here 
in the SE US someone has bought all the Volt packs and driving up prices.  I've 
just finally got another after a month of trying vs before it was just pick the 
lowest cost one after bargaining.                     I have a 7kwh module 
available if anyone is interested and likely have more in the future.           
         BTW for shipping these, etc,  Fastenal ships pallets  from store to 
store very cheaply, just call them electronic parts as they get strange when 
batteries are mentioned even though the Volt modules are very safe.             
           Jerry Dycus
On ‎Thursday‎, ‎January‎ ‎17‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎37‎:‎30‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EST, CoreyH via 
EV  wrote:  
 
 I’m wondering if you might be better off buying a used Chevy Volt or Leaf
pack to get to your goals for a reasonable cost? I’m seeing the Gen1 Voot
packs sell at wreckers for around $2k, but I’ve seen them as low as $1300. 

I also bought one of those EBay Valence batteries that I have now used for a
week as the 12v battery in my ‘13 Chevy Volt. So far so good, but I cannot
help much for your application. I’m a little worried about the high
temperature protection that kicks in at +50C. 

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[jerry freedomev via EV]

         Hi Damon, Robert and All,                 Assuming they are high 
output ones  I found these are very good as E bike/trike batteries as very 
rugged.    I got several 25vdc 12-14amphr batteries of them from some 
heart/lung machines and was very happy.    Keep them out of sunlight as hurts 
the case.             The secret is only charging to 95% drastically cuts water 
use, maintaining them to 1/month with an equalize charge of 110% every week or 
2.   They charge fast  to 90%.              Make sure they are under 
compression or they swell.  They many times come in metal cases for that.       
        On SAFTs they did  take them at their Atlanta warehouse for recycling  
if you ship to them. Google for details.                        Jerry
On ‎Friday‎, ‎November‎ ‎2‎, ‎2018‎ ‎02‎:‎41‎:‎34‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EDT, Damon Henry 
via EV  wrote:  
 
 Wow, at one time I would have drooled all over these.  In fact I bought a 
couple hundred surpluss BB600 myself and used them in both my EVs. I'm afraid I 
am lithium spoiled now.  The flooded NiCads took too much maintenance and were 
quite messy.  Also, I learned not to put them in an aluminum box :)

Can you share details on the logistics of sending them to the recyclers?  I 
still have some dead ones laying around I need to properly dispose of some day.

thanks
Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ROBERT via EV 

Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 2:14 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years ago as 
military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The specifications are: Saft 
Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If 
anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay shipping, you can have 
them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers next week.  In addition, I 
have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole 
spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni plate Cu.  If anyone needs 
these links, I will sell them for the price of cooper.


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Re: [EVDL] buying Volt modules, etc, Advice on new battery pack

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi John and All,    I get mine for less than that at local junk yards.  
You may have to deal some.  When they are too high I just let them sit on it 
until they meet my price.  You shouldn't  pay over $1600/pack, less in fact.    
   Most all will give you a 15% discount at the counter just by asking. 
 And their asking price is a wish in most cases.      As they are 
harder to deal with only a few EV people are buying them and a lot of them have 
crashed and crashing as we post, they likely will stay plentiful and cheap, the 
lowest price EV modules. They are only good in 48vdc multiples 
though 120vdc and 162vdc  nom are possible.    That they happily 
put out 300kw/pack , 1k amps isn't bad either and why racers like them even 
with the weight penalty.    I've sold for 5 different EVs, 3 lead 
conversions and 2 custom besides my own lightweight EVs here in Florida to 
others out of state at $150/kwh, well  below the price of premium lead. 
   Unlikely  I'll ever go back to lead.   Just got my second 
module, 8kwh total,  in my trike subcar chassis is working out nicely but 
wthr/mile is high around 120wthr/mile which I expected it to be more like 
80wthr/mile.   Hopefully the aero body I'm cutting out now will 
help.  And maybe it is the Contactor controller as now having a Wthr meter on 
it, it takes a lot more power than a Curtis controller on my other EV trike 
pickup.  I was really hoping on 80wthr/mile. So next is robbing 
the Curtis from the older trike.   It'll be rebuilt as a fast long distance 
subcar for towing a matching lightweight aero trailer.    My 
big hold up is getting longer front brake lines so I can move the handlebars, 
seat   back I need to do before I can put the body on.  Now I have the range to 
go find them with the second module in place.  ;^) Jerry Dycus

  From: John Lussmyer via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: John Lussmyer 
 Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:36 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Advice on new battery pack
   
On Fri Jun 22 21:57:41 PDT 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>You can get 16kw worth of Volt packs for under $2k without shopping
>around much or lucking out.

Where?


--

Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging handshake?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Collin nd All, Since I'm not fluent in CANbus I guess 
I'll need a pre set comm card.  I'm of need of just the car side for charging 
though for my direct solar charging I'll need the charger side at least to get 
access to the pack.    I'm thinking of a used inlet as likely a new one 
is too costly if one can be found.    Is CHadeMO the one that is likely 
to be wide spread in the future 100kw and up units in the US?   
Thanks,  Jerry Dycus 

  From: Collin Kidder 
 To: jerry freedomev ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2018 5:26 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging handshake?
   
Well, you weren't specific but you might have meant CHAdeMO DC fast
charging. I'm going to assume such and if that wasn't the case you'll
have to be more specific.

If you need to produce the car side CHAdeMO comm then you'll need a
way to connect to a CAN bus and you will need two inputs and two
outputs. The outputs drive relays so you might want your MCU outputs
to go to MOSFETs. Then you need code like this:
https://github.com/collin80/JLD505/tree/debug

If you need the EVSE side then you still need to speak CAN and have a
way to selectively provide the DC voltage (and at a variable voltage
too so you probably need some sort of DC/DC). I don't have existing
code to copy for the EVSE side yet. But you might be able to
figure out what it is expected to do by looking at the car side code.

You can buy CHAdeMO input and plugs. The inlets are expensive. The
plugs are completely outrageous. Sit down before looking up the price
of either one. It's extremely stupid. CHAdeMO is likely to be around
for quite a while as there are already thousands of CHAdeMO EVSE's all
around the world.

I hope that's at least somewhat helpful. It's a kind of big topic.

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 7:40 AM, jerry freedomev via EV
 wrote:
>
>            Hi All,                I'm and I'm sure many others in need of how 
>the DC charging works so I can put it in my new EVs and make direct solar 
>charging work.              What does the EV need to tell the DC to get power 
>and what does the DC require from the EV?                Can one buy the 
>inlets and which inlets are likely to be around in the future?  They seem to 
>change every yr or so.  I've lost track as I don't use them yet.              
>With Volt modules I'll be able to charge in just 10-12 minutes if I can crack 
>this.              And I'll, others can build solar arrays that charge EVs 
>directly from the panels.                Plus is the basis for V2G systems on 
>most any DC charging equipped EV by getting excess to the pack.              
>Any help is greatly appreciated.                  Thanks,                      
>  Jerry Dycus
>
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging handshake?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi All,     I'm and I'm sure many others in need of how 
the DC charging works so I can put it in my new EVs and make direct solar 
charging work.   What does the EV need to tell the DC to get power 
and what does the DC require from the EV?    Can one buy the inlets 
and which inlets are likely to be around in the future?  They seem to change 
every yr or so.  I've lost track as I don't use them yet.   With 
Volt modules I'll be able to charge in just 10-12 minutes if I can crack this.  
 And I'll, others can build solar arrays that charge EVs directly 
from the panels.    Plus is the basis for V2G systems on most any 
DC charging equipped EV by getting excess to the pack.   Any help 
is greatly appreciated.   Thanks,    Jerry 
Dycus    

   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: mankamemotors.com EP-1 e-Motorcycle.in r:500km ts:251kph

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Al and All,   Having just went through this building a 
prototype Streamliner chassis to test low CG and a long wheelbase  handling 
which both worked out great I found out this. Sadly I found out my 
legs no longer can hold it up over 1-2 red light cycles so that was switched to 
be a EV trike pickup.   Assuming dense battery modules with a good aero 
body, low rolling resistance tires, 6 Tesla modules would get you 300 miles.   
I can do that in my subcar version I'm building.  Based on my past versions 
it'll need well under 100wthr/mile.   You might want to look at the E 
Tracer that is close to this range 7? yrs ago and a lot faster. 
  Jerry Dycus
  From: Alan Arrison via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Alan Arrison 
 Sent: Monday, June 4, 2018 10:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: mankamemotors.com EP-1 e-Motorcycle.in r:500km 
ts:251kph
   
Good luck with that. Not going to happen.

Al


> Building an electric car with a range of 310 miles (500 km) is not such a
> difficult task these days as far as batteries are concerned. The size of the
> car allows for enough cells to be fitted so that the vehicles can have the
> desired reach. Not the same can be said about electric motorcycles.
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] BMS on Volt modules, Lots of 12v lithium batteries available.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Dan and All,    A solar boat is likely in my future too. 
 The voltage are normal for that type of cell, 49.5vdc top and 36 though under 
39vdc, there is little energy left as it drops off a cliff.   So 
I'm using 39vdc as my lower cutoff though manual, it can be done by the HB404 
too as has 2 programable if harder than hell relay drivers.   I 
just use power supplies set to 49.5vdc for charging now and using a MPJA 
100vdc, 100amp wthr meter to just keep track.   Steve has a good 
point but something anyone should be thinking about when designing a system 
what might happen.  Running it off  48vdc means both can go down together too. 
But each system is different.  I'm not running any BMS as most 
don't as too much an expensive PITA.  And the quality of the cells seem to not 
be needed at first.  After it ages could be another matter.  There 
are some interesting low cost bike BMS chips that could work at 48vdc.  
   A 4kwh module is 2 48vdc sections,  5 kwh has 2 48vdc and a 12vdc sections, 
a 7 kwh has a 12vdc and 3 48vdc sections though that has changed in recent 
packs.  But few of them are out there yet, most being 2012-2014 model yrs.  
   And heavy at 25lbs./kwh.  But cheap, powerful. On a boat I'd 
keep it at 48vdc for shock hazard unless no other choice .  If I 
were you charging from the grid I'd just buy a settable  powersupply for hands 
off and use your lead chargers as bulk charging with a timer doing most of it, 
and the PS finishing it off is how I'm , most are doing it.   I'm 
looking for surplus/cheap 1-4kw 48vdc power supplies myself and exactly where 
one can find  used 48vdc 2kw and up UPS systems? .  
 Jerry Dycus

  From: Dan Baker via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Dan Baker 
 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2018 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lots of 12v lithium batteries available.
   
This a great relevant thread for me.  I'm interested in going from Lead to
Lithium on my boat and I believe Volt cells are likely the most available
and least expensive to me.  The Volt cells appear to have different charge
points than most Lithium so the HB404 looks like a great solution.  Jerry,
do you just use one HB404/ contactor  for a string of cells that add up to
120v when charged? No other BMS? I'm looking at doing 96v setup, doubling
my current 48v setup.  I was thinking 2 x 48v packs, 2 HB404s and
contactors and using 2 x 48v chargers that I already own.  Appreciate any
advice on this, excited to switch to Lithium but nervous of destroying a
set in the learning stage lol.

Cheers
Dan

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 1:36 PM Len Moskowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Thanks Jerry, but I'd like to keep the lead-acid form factor and use the
> existing charger.
>
> Len M.
>
> -
> On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 12:30 PM, jerry freedomev wrote:
>
>
>
>    Hi Len and All,
>            2  5kwh,  120vdc nom  Volt modules would by far be the best,
> lowest cost solution.  And for charging just add an HB404 wthr meter and
> a contactor to cut the voltage off at fully charged using your present
> charger likely.
>            Each take about the same space as 2.5 of your 12vdc lead
> batteries.  And cost $1500-$2300 buying modules, not much more than
> lead, less than premium lead.
>            Since 2 modules will put out 2k amps and weigh much less,
> lead EVs  I've sold them for nicely  increase both range and pickup even
> with the same rated kwh.  And one can add another module or 2 for more
> range.
>              My rebuild of my EV trike pickup into the subcar it was
> suppose to be  I'll put 2 5kwh modules in it for about 120 mile range.
> Could put in 250 miles worth.
>                      Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Lots of 12v lithium batteries available.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Len and All,   2  5kwh,  120vdc nom  Volt modules would by far be 
the best, lowest cost solution.  And for charging just add an HB404 wthr meter 
and a contactor to cut the voltage off at fully charged using your present 
charger likely.   Each take about the same space as 2.5 of your 12vdc 
lead batteries.  And cost $1500-$2300 buying modules, not much more than lead, 
less than premium lead.   Since 2 modules will put out 2k amps and 
weigh much less, lead EVs  I've sold them for nicely  increase both range and 
pickup even with the same rated kwh.   And one can add another module or 2 for 
more range. My rebuild of my EV trike pickup into the subcar it was 
suppose to be  I'll put 2 5kwh modules in it for about 120 mile range.  Could 
put in 250 miles worth. Jerry Dycus 

  From: Len Moskowitz via EV 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes  
Cc: Len Moskowitz ; EVDL 
 Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:04 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lots of 12v lithium batteries available.
   
Lawrence: Do you have any suggestions for our old VW Jetta conversion? 
It currently uses ten 115 Ah Group 27DC lead-acids.


Len Moskowitz

-

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 05:19 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> There are starting to be a lot of safe lithium, lead form factor, 
> replacements on the market.  This might be a way to restore old 
> electric scooters and conversions.  You might be able to use your old 
> battery racks.  Get a bit more range than they had as lead sleds.  
> Another benefit is many have good BMS so battery balancers are not 
> needed. Worst case is batteries might have to be charged separately 
> once in a while. That being said maybe it's a good idea to always 
> charge them separately. A balanced pack is a happy pack.   Lawrence 
> Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] 3wh handling, my lightweight EV progress, was Sparrow alternate?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Bobby and All,   3wh vehicles , just like 4wh ones, 
handle as well as they are designed to.  I've done about 13 of them over the 
yrs and what matters is how low and where you put the CG which should be 33% 
inside of the 2 wheel axle.   You can make a 2 front wheel/RT, one 
that will scrub off the tire or break the suspension before it'll roll with 
it's EV batteries low and correctly placed, between the front wheels.   
 Or you can make it with a high aft CG and it'll easily roll over. 
On the Sparrow, it's handling is like  big SUV, Van, safe driven within reason. 
 Even my EV trike pickups  far out handle  all ICE trikes and 
barely has to slow for cornering, taking them as well as most cars.     
 Though if I want best performance, go with the 2 front wheels which properly 
set up should do autocross very well..    Because of the need for low 
correctly placed CG, makes EVs and  natural partners.  Now add lightweight and 
if aero, very long range on a small pack, easily getting 200 miles with a 20kwh 
pack.    And speaking of long range trikes, my newest EV trike subcar 
is in chassis but legal form, on the road testing out systems before making 
it's aero body.    Right now it looks like my EV trike pickups. 
   For those new, it is a large MC front end, a wood/epoxy chassis, body with a 
hot rodded golfcart rear end and Volt EV lithium battery modules. 
Having a money crunch again I went back to a contactor controller , 3speed with 
turbo/field weakening it's getting along well at 45 mph.   I can probable go 
faster but it's only a 2.2hp rated motor!!  And fast enough for me so I'll 
leave it there for now. I thought making he trailing arm suspension 
in the rear from the stiff leaf springs but turns out I was very wrong.  
Apparently when I built the previous ones by using alum rectangular 1x3''  make 
a anti roll bar effect is why it stayed so flat it turns.  With the Leaf spring 
ones it  would just lean one way or the other, usually the way you didn't want. 
    I pumped the air hocks up rather high so when I hit my 2nd speed, 
the rear reared up surprising the heck out of me.  So I lowered the rear and 
most of it went away. Just have a 4kw Volt EV module in now for 
testing with a  large 12vdc lead to balance it for 12vdc supply.  
I'm using the FreedomEVs Prius replacement tires and lightweight mags looks 
better and why I'm getting 10 mph more as my last one it seems as battery 
voltage, motor, transaxle models are all the same.    As I get it more 
reliable, I'll take the Battery out of my present EV trike pickup giving me 
8kwh and likely 100-120 mile range.   Most of mine run between 60-80wthr/mile 
with bad aero.  We'll see soon what my new one gets.     Just got my 
MPJA Wthr meter, good for 100 vdc and 400amps or so yesterday so I'll know soon 
what a not aero version  does..  I expect my aero cabin  version to use about 
the same at 60mph as the not aero at 45mph.    I'll rebuild my present 
one as an aero cabin it was suppose to be the first time, with a much larger 
motor, chain driving the GC transaxle so it can do 65mph and tow an aero, 
lightweight  trailer long distance, up to 250 miles on a charge.    And 
amazingly how low cost these are as I'll only have about $800-$1200 in each 
one.  I get my Volt modules cheap as I sell them for $150/kwh.    I 
need to finish waterproofing it/epoxy coating, so it'll stay nice looking and 
we seem to be in a tropical storm like system here for 5 days in Tampa.   So 
good I built that shop, reason for low cash flow,  to work in as the rainy 
season is here early!!   Jerry Dycus.   

  From: Bobby Keeland via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Bobby Keeland 
 Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 8:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow alternate?
   
When ATVs were first introduced as 3-wheelers I had one, but did not keep
it for long. 3-wheelers are an accident waiting to happen. With 2 wheels in
the front these car/motorcycle combinations may be safe, but it would take
a lot to convince me. Has anyone on the EVDL actually driven one of these
things and gone around a corner at highway speed?

On May 14, 2018 12:22 AM, "paul dove via EV"  wrote:

> Ampere Motor USA fully electric roadster supposed to start production this
> year.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 13, 2018, at 10:47 AM, John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone heard of this before?  I have trouble believing that it's a real
> vehicle that's been developed in total secrecy, AND that's it's cheap
> (relatively).
> > https://www.hammacher.com/Product/13338
> >
> > --
> > Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
> > 

Re: [EVDL] Hazem's 108V PbSO4 pack change: Zivan charger setting ...

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Bruce, Hazem and All,    Why not have the battery company 
change them?  It's their job and they have the backs, equipment, place for it.  
      They do all the other cars, golfcarts, NEVs, RVs, boats, Home battery 
packs, etc for free.   Jerry 

  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: brucedp5 
 Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 11:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hazem's 108V PbSO4 pack change: Zivan charger setting ...
   
% Hazem's Sartell-MN neighbor Lee Hart might know of a MN person that could
help with any future EV repairs/issues.

Changing a pack is a good opportunity for modifications/additions. Like
adding battery plate warmers and or pack insulation.
https://www.google.com/search?q=car+battery+heater

https://www.google.com/search?q=auto+battery+heater

According to Lee's (dated) post:
https://www.mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/msg19192.html
battery heating pads
Lee Hart via EV Tue, 03 Jan 2017 

He likes using an electric blanket keep his pack warm. 
Which would mean two $30 120VAC blankets for both front & rear packs:
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+blanket=shop=p_ord:p

I'll assume Hazem hasn't changed a pack before. This 1st time pack change
will take at least two days (do not be in a hurry, do it right), so be sure
to have alternate transport (go to work, run to the store, etc.).

It is important to do your prepitory homework ahead of time. On paper, map
out both the front and rear battery packs, noting the battery orientation  +
& - terminal positions), and map the battery cable routing.

I also like to number each cable: after each cables removal and cleaning, I
use a permanent marker to label each one so they go back to the same
position,

Cleaning the cables and the racks they sit in is important. You not only can
note/document wear-n-tear, but also the cleaning neutralizes acid
buildup/corrosion.

The 1st time I changed my Solar Electric conversion (my former S10 Blazer
http://brucedp.tripod.com/blazer/
) I did the above: documentation, used a windex-type glass cleaner & paper
wipes, a bottle of rubbing/isopropyl alcohol, and had a voltmeter
by-the-ready.

You should have a voltmeter. Walmart has them for ~$10
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Neiko-40508-830B-Digital-Multimeter-AC-DC-Resistance-Current/197985834

This also a good time to check the health of the 12V auxiliary battery (if
it is 9yrsold, then its time to replace it too
https://www.solar-electric.com/repoba12vo95.html
), and verify the voltage output of the DC to DC & 12V charger are set
correctly. In the past I thought setting the 12V charge voltage to finish at
14.4V was correct. Since then, I have found 13.8 to 14V is best for me (it
seems to be more gentle on the 12V deep-cycle aux battery).

After recording your finishing pack and aux battery voltages, disconnect the
chargers from the AC power, and turn/pull the red emergency switch to off.

Use the mild-alkaline glass cleaner to clean the surfaces of the batteries
before removal 
(I used a ~$10 battery lifter strap the battery source supplied
http://www.ezred.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/BK560.jpg
- do not use the lifter type that lifts using the posts= very bad
https://d26maze4pb6to3.cloudfront.net/8413/6363/7683/CarryStrap.jpg

https://www.google.com/search?q=car+battery+lifter+strap
), and later use the glass cleaner as a first pass to clean the cables (the
cables will need a second cleaning using the alcohol to remove the glass
cleaner residue). 

After the batteries are removed, use the glass cleaner to clean the racks
before the new batteries go in. If you find corrosion, then those areas will
need a cleaning/scrubbing using a baking soda +water solution to neutralize
that area, then several passes of water rinsing, and then the glass cleaner
to remove the dried baking soda powder residue.

Battery cable's terminals (I assume yours are the automotive post type
https://www.zoro.com/quickcable-straight-terminal-20-ga-orange-pos-4020-525-001p/i/G7499782/
 should be cleaned with alcohol, and checked for corrosion both on the
terminal/lug and lug-bolt/nut, but also for any corrosion that has creeped
up into the cable's crimped lug end.

After several years of pack changes, the cables solar-electric made were
tired, and I had to learn how to make new ones by cutting 00 cable to
length, striping back & putting noalox on the ends
https://www.google.com/search?q=noalox
 and then using a crimping tool putting new terminal/lugs on.

Hazem may not need to replace his cables at this time, but he should clean
the ends well. 

After the pack has been replaced, and after a couple of weeks of driving &
the terminal/lug bolt tightness re-checked (driving vibration loosens them)
... at the very end of all of that, then you apply an anti-corrosion grease
coating on outside metal terminal/lug surfaces (do not use the cheapie spray
on type, it does not last)

Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 66, Issue 31

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Fred and All,  Tampa Armature Works I believe does 
them.   Look for local forklift shops  as these are Forklift motors, asking 
where they are .   I own a new D+D15?  125 amp and it just 
sitting in the humidity the brushes got stuck brand new.  So I'd pop off the 
air guard over the brushes and see if you can move them, lift them up.  Use a 
needle nose plier to lift the spring off and the brush should easily move.  
 You could take one out then with a finger feel the commutator as 
you spin it , if it has a high bar.     If the brushes  don't you 
might need to take it apart which isn't hard.  Getting it back together is 
harder but leave the brush springs off the side of the brushes and be gentle 
should be OK. I'm just 12 miles SE of Tampa if you want to 
bring it over we can take it apart so see what the problem is, maybe fix it.
 Jerry

  From: fred via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: fred 
 Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 8:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 66, Issue 31
   
 

  Begin Original Message: 2
From: Lee Hart fred via EV wrote:
> I have a Gizmo EV which uses a 10" Sepex motor.

That doesn't sound like the original motor. I worked on Gizmos many 
moons ago, and as I recall they had D 6.7" series motors, and Alltrax 
controllers.

That error is a serious brain glitch. Somewhere in my alleged mind, I exchanged 
the part number with the diameter. This one is probably the D motor you know, 
with a Sevcon controller.


> More recently, the Gizmo has been sitting idle. Perhaps someone can tell me 
> why it feels as though it is cogging at low speed, even though it didn't use 
> to do that. At higher speeds, the jitter and jumping goes away, but the low 
> speed regime is from zero to about 20 mph and is painful to experience. I've 
> been told from one of the Gizmo group denizens that when/if I fix the jitter, 
> it would be wise to take a spin every two weeks or so to keep the jitters 
> away. Would the commutator oxide over non-use and cause this problem?
>
> Because I retained the previous motor with the burned brush, I figured I'd 
> get it checked out, repaired or rebuilt as required, but it's nigh impossible 
> to find a motor repair facility in this area. One of the more recently 
> recommended shops now has a sign that says something along the lines of "I'll 
> be here if I feel like it. Call me to see if I'm here. If I'm not here and I 
> feel like working, I'll call you back." He didn't call back. Through the shop 
> window, I saw a sign that stated he does not work on electric vehicle motors, 
> although I think I could have slipped the ES-10C by as something else.

If the brush is all that burned, the commutator can be resurfaced and 
new brushes installed to resurrect the motor. This is not difficult work.

These are hopeful words. Even if all I accomplish is to disassemble the spare 
motor, it may save me a buck or two when I find a repair shop.

> I have the address in NY from which I ordered the current motor, but the 
> shipping would be brutal.

Where are you located? Are there any motor repair places listed in a 
city near you? Any place that works on golf carts, fork lifts, and 
industrial motors can rebuild your motor.

Being in Florida means there are plenty of golf cart places around here. I 
should have thought of that, even though the Gizmo is a bit better performer. 
It's effectively the same technology. If a golf cart shop doesn't fix the 
stuff, they may know of someone who does.

> Is it practical to expect to be able to dismantle the spare motor, replace 
> the brushes and then what?

If the commutator is straight and true (no bent or warped bars), you 
basically put the armature in a lathe, and take off just enough copper 
to clean up and smooth the surface again. Assemble the motor with new 
brushes and brush springs. Run the motor on the bench for several hours 
at low voltage to break it in.

I don't think my toy HF lathe has the capacity to spin the armature, so that 
will have to be outsourced. At least I'll save some labor charges for 
dismantling the motor maybe.

> Do I need to examine and/or replace the bearings on which the shaft operates?

Bearings generally last "forever". If they do need replacement, you need 
a press or gear puller. Again, that's not difficult to find.

I suppose I can spin the motor and see if it feels smooth. It was running fine 
prior to the brush burn up.

> In summary (whew!), is the spare motor fixable by a handy tinkerer?

I'd say it's worth a try. It's worthless if it's broken. How much worse 
can it be? ;-)

I try to use that attitude on my experiments, but again forgot to apply it 
here. It doesn't work now, if something goes wrong, it won't work less, will it?


> Is the in-place motor problem something that is easily identified and as 
> 

Re: [EVDL] 2Kwh Volt battery pack charger

[jerry freedomev via EV]

        Hi Kevin, Cor and All,              That sounds interesting  plus the 
same model covers 96, 120, 144vdc packs with slight changes.               Cor, 
I'll try to get ahold of you offlist.                    Thanks,                
         Jerry

  From: Kevin Trombley via EV 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org"  
Cc: Kevin Trombley 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 8:55 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] 2Kwh Volt battery pack charger
   
 I recently did some research on the proper charging requirements for a 2Kwh 
section of a Chevy Volt battery.
44.4 nominal voltage    12x4.1V/cell=49.2V constant charge voltage
I found a nice Elcon TC HK-H 1,800W 25A battery charger at evcomponents.com for 
~$300.00 shipped

  
|  
|  
|  
|  |    |

  |

  |
|  
|  |  
Elcon TC HK-H 1800W Charger
    
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

[jerry freedomev via EV]

      Hi Fred and All,              I measured them with a known good meter at 
3.53v/cell so use that to calibrate yours.  I don't charge them up so safer to 
ship.I parallel the 2 48vdc nom sections in a 4 kwh module and charge them with 
a MPJA  sold   hf240w-sf-48.    Once you get it, adjust it to 49.2vdc  and you 
are good.  Don't charge over 49.2vdc.  I too am looking for more powerful and 
reasonably priced solutions that can handle lithium in 48, 96, 120 and 144vdc 
packs.I think your 3vdc/cell is too low and I'm using 3.2vdc/cell for now.Would 
like to hear others on what voltages the 2013 Volt uses or what they are 
using.?And what inverters at a reasonable price one can use to run off the 
48vdc EV pack to give V2H?Thanks,        Jerry Dycus

  From: fred via EV 
 To: via EV  
Cc: fred 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 6:15 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations
   
Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. 
My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all 
the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction        12 in-series x 3 in parallel
Length              9.5"
Width            9.5"
Height              10.5
Weight             45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour        47
Total Voltage           48vdc

 

CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type        Laminate type
Cathode material       LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material          Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah
Average voltage        3.8 VDC
Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC
Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC
I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 
42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an 
earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right 
stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal 
voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the 
battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 
36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in 
regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those 
higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an 
off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been 
ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger 
exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they 
have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as 
appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an 
hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten 
hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment 
as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works 
out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: [EVDL] update, results Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor

[jerry freedomev via EV]

          Hi Dan, Lee, David and All,              I took all the ideas and 
made a sepex controller which was kind of jerky but that is likely because it 
isn't loaded and should work once linkage is worked out.  I'll likely use it on 
a moped cabin trike since I have the title, VIN, etc.              While 
looking at the Sepex and my other series motor transaxle I wondered whether the 
armature  was the same?   So I popped it apart and then it slide right in the 
series field, transaxle!!!   ;^)              Of course would it run?  I hooked 
it up and ran excellently.               So looking to put that in my next 
EWoody, an aerocabin trike I just cut first wood today.  I hope to have it on 
the road if not finished by 2-15-18 so I can get ride of my Van.               
Sadly I was also able to check the gear reduction which is 12-1 which means 
45mph is all one can get from it as hitting around 7k rpm.                Good 
thing is the male spline shaft coming out the  transaxle seems to have a good 
bearing  so may be able to put a sprocket on it to mount a more powerful motor 
off the axle lowering unsprung weight along with correcting the reduction 
gearing down to 8-1. .            I was stretching 2.2hp GC motors way past, 4x 
 their limits  though they took it in stride with few failures from 15-40 yr 
old motors when I got them.            And I need an EV that can go 250 miles 
to Miami, etc to pickup solar panels so I need more power than one can expect 
from a stock GC motor.  I have my old EWoody from a CitCar motor, 50 yrs old 
now chain driving a GC transaxle seems to be the present choice.           I 
can put it in my new one but likely sell that instead and build another one as 
they get easier as I build more.  Now I can put much more powerful motors in 
them really opens up new apps, long distance lithium battery EVs.           
Thanks,                Jerry Dycus 
  

  From: Dan Baker via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Cc: Dan Baker <vmd...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor
  
Hey Jerry

I would give Carl over at Evdrives a call, he should be able to recommend
something cost effective.  I have a couple 96 ezgos that I fixed one up for
my pig.  Originally one came with an aftermarket 36/48 Alltrax controller
which was running at 36v.  I replaced the dead batteries with a 48v pack,
motor had no issues running at that voltage but the used controller failed
within a couple months.  I replaced it with an Alltrax series controller
and D motor.  Shunt controllers are usually more expensive then series
controllers.  The EZGO TXT I have has a Spicer diff as well, not sure of
the exact ratios, you can get high speed gear sets but they are pricey
IMO.  The bolt pattern on my spicer axles is 4 x100 so larger rims from an
ATV or Civic would also give you more distance per turn.  Watch how much
load you put on those sealed motors, most are Iron cased and dissipate heat
poorly.  I have a thermostat and fan on mine now.

Cheers
Dan

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:53 AM, jerry freedomev via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

>
>  Hi All,    I'm building some lightweight subcar EVs to demonstrate them
> as low cost transport plus I need long range EV transport until I get my 63
> Vette looking EV  done and to get rid of my costly and FF van.      Just
> picked up 2 Ez-Go GCs for scrap but not checking they turned out to have
> 36vdc ADC sep/ex motors transverse on Spicer transaxles.  My question is
> how best to make them work at 5500-6k rpm on 48vdc Volt modules?      My
> thinking is a starting resistor and I have a variable 20 amp, 80vdc DC
> power supply to start up.    First hitting the first the power
> supply/field full on and then the start solenoid , then short out the
> resistor and then reduce the field to increase speed.      Other
> suggestions like anyone doing it with Kelly controllers, etc as long as not
> too costly.  But I hear they need to be matched as other electronic ones
> do.      Anyone know the gear ratio on these Spicer transaxles, 1983??
>          Thanks,                    Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Price, Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

      Hi Bill, Lee and All,           Batteries are as well as can be recycled, 
in the US because it has always been nicely profitable and those who collect 
metals and many others always have an eye out for le   ad batteries because 
they are quick cash.            While batteries alone which w are talking 
about, while maybe not 98%, is getting close to it.            For those 
recycling them news is great because EV, storage demand in the world is way up, 
recent price quotes were  $.35/lb meaning $20 or so per GC battery.           
While that looks great for now, eventually Li, other batteries will replace 
them, prices drop and thy get left behind.              We need a solution for 
that and I think it is grid batteries, submarine style that last 20 yrs and 
with a reformer onsite, would have unlimited life with a $.10lb floor price to 
make sure it is recycled.             Jerry Dycus 

  From: Bill Dube via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Bill Dube 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:20 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
  
Lee, I think this 98% recycled is a case of very carefully drawing the 
envelope. I believe it only accounts for batteries that make it though 
the front gate of the recycling facility.

Here is why:

According to the International Lead Association's figures, lead-acid 
batteries use 85% of all the lead produced form all sources. (This 
percentage goes up a touch with each passing year because lead is used 
in fewer other products.)
About 50% of the lead produced is mined, and 50% comes from recycled 
lead. This is also directly from the ILA figures.
This ~50% recycled fraction has been quite steady for quite a few years.
https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-recycling

If _none_ of the lead used for other than lead-acid batteries is 
recycled but ends up in the land fill, (not true, but bear with me) 
where is the remaining 35% of the lead used for lead acid batteries going?

Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries is _not_ being 
recycled. If they were recycled at 98%, there would be at least 83% of 
the lead production would be from recycled lead from lead-acid 
batteries.  Only 50% comes from recycled lead.

The figures just don't add up. At least 35% of lead-acid batteries are 
ending up in the land fill. Just doing basic mass balance accounting 
using the ILA figures.

Indeed, an entire EV's worth of batteries is more likely to end up at 
the recycler than an alarm battery, but the 98% I believe is "creative 
accounting" at best.

Bill D.


On 1/23/2018 11:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on 
>> lead acid batteries.
>>
>> The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are 
>> huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which 
>> there is no safe exposure.
>
> Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so 
> can the materials in just about any battery.
>
> The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. 
> Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and 
> procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. 
> Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other 
> battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as 
> trash and wind up in landfills.
>

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Re: [EVDL] Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor

[jerry freedomev via EV]

     Hi Dan and All,            Looked at EVDRive and interesting but I was 
trying to find a lower cost solution.              Interesting a motor for the 
Spicer unit gets about 17% more speed so hopefully means a lower ratio.         
      As for 6.7" lasting I've been abusing them for decades now and they take 
it well normally running at 2 x rated power even in Florida heat with a fan.    
          I'm planning a very low drag EV, 60-80wthr/mile so even at 50mph if 
the gearing lets it should be a problem.  I normally tow a 1k lb loaded trailer 
behind my EV trike pickup using the series version.               And I already 
do use 14" LRR tires    Are you sure your bolt pattern isn't  4"x4" instead?    
There are like 4  4 lug bolt patterns within 4mm of each other.                 
   Still need an answer on this if it'll work,    First hitting the  the power
> supply/field full on and then the start solenoid with resistor inline, then 
> short out the
> resistor and then reduce the field to increase speed.?           Thanks,      
>           Jerry Dycus

  From: Dan Baker via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Cc: Dan Baker <vmd...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor
   
Hey Jerry

I would give Carl over at Evdrives a call, he should be able to recommend
something cost effective.  I have a couple 96 ezgos that I fixed one up for
my pig.  Originally one came with an aftermarket 36/48 Alltrax controller
which was running at 36v.  I replaced the dead batteries with a 48v pack,
motor had no issues running at that voltage but the used controller failed
within a couple months.  I replaced it with an Alltrax series controller
and D motor.  Shunt controllers are usually more expensive then series
controllers.  The EZGO TXT I have has a Spicer diff as well, not sure of
the exact ratios, you can get high speed gear sets but they are pricey
IMO.  The bolt pattern on my spicer axles is 4 x100 so larger rims from an
ATV or Civic would also give you more distance per turn.  Watch how much
load you put on those sealed motors, most are Iron cased and dissipate heat
poorly.  I have a thermostat and fan on mine now.

Cheers
Dan

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:53 AM, jerry freedomev via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

>
>  Hi All,    I'm building some lightweight subcar EVs to demonstrate them
> as low cost transport plus I need long range EV transport until I get my 63
> Vette looking EV  done and to get rid of my costly and FF van.      Just
> picked up 2 Ez-Go GCs for scrap but not checking they turned out to have
> 36vdc ADC sep/ex motors transverse on Spicer transaxles.  My question is
> how best to make them work at 5500-6k rpm on 48vdc Volt modules?      My
> thinking is a starting resistor and I have a variable 20 amp, 80vdc DC
> power supply to start up.    First hitting the first the power
> supply/field full on and then the start solenoid , then short out the
> resistor and then reduce the field to increase speed.      Other
> suggestions like anyone doing it with Kelly controllers, etc as long as not
> too costly.  But I hear they need to be matched as other electronic ones
> do.      Anyone know the gear ratio on these Spicer transaxles, 1983??
>          Thanks,                    Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi All,     I'm building some lightweight subcar EVs to demonstrate them as 
low cost transport plus I need long range EV transport until I get my 63 Vette 
looking EV  done and to get rid of my costly and FF van.      Just picked up 2 
Ez-Go GCs for scrap but not checking they turned out to have 36vdc ADC sep/ex 
motors transverse on Spicer transaxles.   My question is how best to make them 
work at 5500-6k rpm on 48vdc Volt modules?      My thinking is a starting 
resistor and I have a variable 20 amp, 80vdc DC power supply to start up.     
First hitting the first the power supply/field full on and then the start 
solenoid , then short out the resistor and then reduce the field to increase 
speed.      Other suggestions like anyone doing it with Kelly controllers, etc 
as long as not too costly.  But I hear they need to be matched as other 
electronic ones do.       Anyone know the gear ratio on these Spicer 
transaxles, 1983??             Thanks,                    Jerry Dycus





   
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Re: [EVDL] leaf versus volt battery modules continued

[jerry freedomev via EV]

        Hi Fred and All,                Volt modules are such that the smallest 
is 4 kwh, 2 sets of 48vdc that is neither easy to put back together  or good to 
take apart.                A well regulated power supply that can be set at 
49.5vdc can charge them.                You math is correct the 4wth Volt 
module is $600 so cheaper and about 2x the Kwh.The voltage is very stiff in the 
Volt so it only drops .5-.8vdc  and no Peukert effect I've been able to tell.   
             Picking up is always good as saves shipping and crating.           
            Thanks,                              Jerry Dycus

  From: fred via EV 
 To: via EV  
Cc: fred 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:24 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] leaf versus volt battery modules continued
  
Thanks for the responses. I now have an email contact, but am posting this 
portion here as I believe it has value as general knowledge. Jerry, if you can 
offer prices for either module, please pop an email to me. I will be able to 
arrange pickup by a friend who lives in Orlando and works in Naples, passing 
minutes away from your location.
Using eBay as a reference, I've found a low-cost Leaf module, $75 for 43 ah at 
7.6v. I need a minimum of 48 volts, which would be 7 modules, bringing the 
total including shipping to $665.
Volt modules are listing $245 for 45 ah but at only 45v nominal. I can't expect 
that it's an easy matter to add a single cell or cell bundle to get closer to 
48v or slightly higher. I probably can use the 45v because the chemistry 
suffers little from Peukert effect and the low voltage cut-out is somewhere 
around 42v, I believe. With shipping, the total is $270, less than half the 
Leaf bundle.
Allowing for what I've learned from Jerry's posts, I'd end up with two Leaf 
modules and I think his prices were better. That means other than the lower 
voltage, I'd come out ahead with the Volt bundle compared to the Leaf.
If my math is incorrect or appears to be based on something unrealistic, please 
let me know.
The mower draws a max of 40 amperes and that's not very frequently. It runs 
steadily at about 20-24 amperes. I'm inclined to believe this means I won't be 
overheating the pack, regardless of my selection. By the same token, charging 
would be done with a chemistry specific charger at about 6 amperes. Even though 
the Volt packs can be/are liquid cooled, I believe that I won't need active 
cooling at such a low rate. Again, please correct any misconceptions you see.
fred
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Re: [EVDL] volt versus leaf revisited, paging Jerry Dycus?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

          Hi Fred and All,                   Sorry being so late getting back 
but was so tired building a new place to finish my 63 Vette looking EV  I fell 
asleep.                        I can  be called at 813-671-3059 an I also have 
an ad on the EV Trading post in the EVPHotoAlbum with my number.     Best to 
Email at freedo...@yahoo.com if you don't get me on the phone.                  
  Not having an inside place to build the all composite Vette and winter even 
comes to Florida forced me to build a place that will later be finished as a 
tiny house.                    Luckily it isn't that expensive and a single 
place for it, all my tools, getting out of the weather, much longer times I can 
work especially at night,  etc it  will pay for itself and make my place easier 
to sell next spring for money to put it into production and the new TH should 
double  it's value.                        The chassis mold is almost done but 
as I was having a hard time getting it level together with the body so needed 
the new place with a flat floor to do it right.                                 
              Thanks,                                                 Jerry 
Dycus          

  From: fred via EV 
 To: via EV  
Cc: fred 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 4:38 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] volt versus leaf revisited, paging Jerry Dycus?
   
I found a previous discussion I started regarding Volt versus Leaf batteries. 
Jerry Dycus offered up some useful information, although I'm still undecided 
which pack to use in the Ariens Amp electric riding mower.
I've not been able to find a contact via email for Jerry, although I suspect 
I've seen it somewhere. Grey matter failure to blame here.
I'd like to re-open the discussion of the decision making for one pack over the 
other and to purchase one from Jerry, if they are still available.
How does one contact Mr. Dycus via email? It seems appropriate to take my 
discussion off-list.

If anyone has other comments regarding selecting one type over the other, 
please chime in.
thanksfred
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Re: [EVDL] Volts or Leaf or ?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Fred and All,    Answer at bottom.
  From: fred via EV 
 To: via EV  
Cc: fred 
 Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 9:52 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts or Leaf or ?
   
Original message:Hi Fred and All,    Volt are excellent modules but taking them 
apart is not wise as needs cooling flow and compression plus end plates, hard 
to seal back together, cell damage if not compressed on charging.So smallest 
module you get is 4kwh, 2 48vdc sections  at 100lbs is how I'm doing my E trike 
pickup I recently converted from lead.Though I sell these on the EV Trading 
Post at $150/kwh complete modules only, likely the Leaf modules will be better 
at less than half the weight for the amount you need..Unless 100lbs is good 
then Volt's are lower cost, better power, longer lasting.Most want $200/kwh on 
ebay for Leaf modules though haven't checked in a few months as I can get Volt 
packs locally for less. Jerry DycusEnd of Original message.

'I've been extending my research and discovered that the Volt modules at a 
purported 48v are really 45.6 nominal. My mower's low voltage cut-out kills the 
blades at about 40-42, rather close to the Volt's nominal level. At least I 
have juice to roll back to the barn, so to speak, but I'd prefer something 
farther away from lvc for the module's nominal level, unless someone has a 
suggestion to work around this (add a segment or two?)
Am I incorrect in expecting that operating voltage will drop to nominal? One of 
my electric transportation devices is a 36 volt nominal, but it only drops 
below that level under heavy load. The mower pulls only 20-30 amperes, hardly a 
heavy load for a 350 amp capable Volt module, yes?
Same concept on the cooling side, it's not likely to get particularly warm at 
1/10 design current. The charger I linked on Amazon is a 6 amp charger. Even if 
it takes overnight to charge, that's not going to warm up the module to the 
point of needing cooling, is it?
The ones I've seen on eBay show as 2kw, 47 ah ratings and about 45 pounds, 
which is not a factor. The current pack of VRSLA batteries are about 150 
pounds. Can a 4kw module be easily halved to get to the 2kw level if the 
voltages would work out for my purposes?'

Fred, Volt modules  charge to 49.2vdc fully charged and driving my EV trike 
pickup at about 60 amps it drops about 2 volts and very stiff after that.At 
40vdc it is near/at 100% discharge so it won't have much problem and if stops, 
just come back in at low power after it recovers if not far.They act more like 
NiCad B660s than lead.And the volt modules in series put out 1k amps tested if 
asked or 2k amps with 2 48vdc ones in parallel for the smallest module at 
4kwh.For a charger use a power supply that can be adjusts to 49.2vdc exactly. 
I'm looking for a 1-4kw one as my main charger if I can find one cheap.Though 
might just go with a bulk charger and finish with a small PS one.Or use the 
JDL404 wthr meter to turn them off with relays, contactors.Again splitting them 
is not smart as can damage them as can not having them compressed makes them 
swell and lose capacity. Now if you get both end plates, hose connections and 
hopefully get it back together compressed without leaks, etc, it could work but 
I wouldn't. I'll at least fill it with coolant as th cells at really buried in 
the plastic case.  Though I'm running the trike without cooling but being very 
gentle with it. As I find out how much more I need for 100 mile range then i'll 
plumb the whole thing up.I wouldn't pay more for split ones when you can get 
whole ones for less at $150/kwh.  If you can take 100lb of  2 48vdc sections, 
the Volt is good. The size of 2  12v lead batteries.If you can't, use the Leaf 
modules.Jerry



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Re: [EVDL] Volts or Leafs or ?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Fred and All,    Volt are excellent modules but taking them apart is not 
wise as needs cooling flow and compression plus end plates, hard to seal back 
together, cell damage if not compressed on charging.So smallest module you get 
is 4kwh, 2 48vdc sections  at 100lbs is how I'm doing my E trike pickup I 
recently converted from lead.Though I sell these on the EV Trading Post at 
$150/kwh complete modules only, likely the Leaf modules will be better at less 
than half the weight for the amount you need..Unless 100lbs is good then Volt's 
are lower cost, better power, longer lasting.Most want $200/kwh on ebay for 
Leaf modules though haven't checked in a few months as I can get Volt packs 
locally for less. Jerry Dycus



  From: fred via EV 
 To: via EV  
Cc: fred 
 Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 6:30 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Volts or Leafs or ?
   
I managed to squeeze four and a half years from the original VRSLA battery 
pack. I tend to the conservative side when using such technology and having a 
CycleAnalyst installed allowed me to keep a sharp eye on our Ariens Amp 
electric riding mower. The replacement pack, same stuff, purchased online has 
now crapped out on me after only two years.
I've been reading on this list of folks using Leaf modules and did a search on 
eBay for the same. I need 48v and desire about 40 ah capacity to replace the 75 
ah capacity of the pb pack. I know from experience that a lead pack is only 
good for half the rating (c/20) in the real world and with the Peukert effect 
in mind, 40 ah should equal or excel the original pack capacity.
I was surprised to see that Volt modules are 48v and have a healthy 47 ah 
capacity. The price of a used Volt module @US$325 comes in a good bit lower 
than the US$600+ figure of the lead pack. I'd have to purchase a 6a charger for 
a hundred dollars but that's still a better deal than sticking with lead.
The links are:2011 Chevy Volt Battery 2kWh 48V Li-ion pack | eBayVeriBest 48V 
6A Lithium Battery Charger
The VeriBest references specifying Manganese chemistry, as the default is for 
LiFePO4.
Even if the Volt battery won't fit under the seat where the old lead pack rode, 
I can still bolt it on the motor deck like Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future 
if I have to. On the other hand, does anyone know if the Volt module can be 
segmented and connected with jumpers?
I would very much appreciate anyone's observations regarding this conversion.
fred


| 
| 
| 
| $99.99 |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
VeriBest 48V 6A Lithium Battery Charger

Veribest Lithium Battery Chargers have been tested against the industry's best 
by an independent lab and judged ...
 |

 |

 |






| 
| 
| 
| $275.00 |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
2011 Chevy Volt Battery 2kWh 48V Li-ion pack | eBay

12 cells in series. Number of cells 36. Construction 12 in-series x 3 in 
parallel. CELL SPECIFICATIONS. Cell typ...
 |

 |

 |




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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Lawrence and All,
   A solar RV can be done if one keeps it 
light, aero one large enough to live in with 6' standing headroom in some 
places by making a composite body like a cut off teardrop but instead use curve 
flat panels for the roof, , sides and a flat floor.
 Using gentle curves can give you an under 
.20DC little larger than a standard van with shower, kitchen, head if a good 
designer. We do it all the time in boats.  And can be done in 2k lbs if one 
works at it. 
  The rear will be 85% of the widest part 
that a solar panel folds down to cover and as shade, rain cover when folding 
out to catch more solar when parked 
 If one drives 55 mph it will only need 7kw 
or so correctly done with a 24kwh pack is 160 mile range.
  There are 1/16" thick solar cells on thin 
strong plastic film that are clean enough to be aero, very low weight and IIRC 
17% or so efficient made for flexible panels would be far better, lighter than 
anything else.
 So on the roof would be 10 sq yards giving 
about 1.7kwh or so at noon gives say 8kwh/day seriously helps range getting to 
maybe 50 added miles. Parked charged more like 10kwh plus 4 more sq yards of 
folding solar giving another 3kwh/day 
   So you'd average 60-80 mpd from just solar, 
minus use.  Assuming you didn't use more fold out lightweight solar panels 
gaining even more range/day.
  Jerry Dycus



On Wed, 9/27/17, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.
 To: "spk...@gmail.com" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
 Date: Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 5:52 PM
 
 The whole point with a solar
 vehicle is to be completely free of the grid most of the
 time.  Charging from your roof solar is not bad but not
 optimal. You can't charge with your roof top solar
 unless you are home.  So when your car is parked usually
 away from home that is when you need it. A vehicle the size
 of a Tesla S can hold at least 1.5kwmaybe a little
 more...BTW you can't just use solar panels on the roof
 of a vehicle.  You need special encapsulation for weight
 and aerodynamics.  Lawrence Rhodes
 
       From: Sean Korb 
  To: Lawrence Rhodes ;
 Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:39
 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just
 do the math.
    
 I think
 you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I
 often
 need 16KW if I take it easy but even
 at 8kw you would need  533sq feet
 of solar
 panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a
 32KWh
 battery pack you could charge it with
 a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4
 hours. 
 That sounds like a better deal and very manageable.
 
 sean
 
 
 
 
 
 On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05
 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 
 wrote:
 > It seems people are
 underestimating the capacity of solar panels on vehicles. 
 It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a
 challenge. However I don't have the math to calculate
 how fast a 3.3kw solar system would push a 3000 pound
 vehicle.  It seems you would need 8kw to push a Leaf up to
 45mph.  This is just a guess but it seems to me that a
 simple calculation of weight, CD, array size would be all
 you would need to calculate the usefulness of any solar
 vehicle.  Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar
 panel, a weight of 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a
 CD of .16.  If you have a 22 ft x 8' vehicle like an
 aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is less than a
 Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much
 solar would fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the
 speed possible with the max panels is beyond me.  I do know
 that if you had a 3.3kw array you would be able to charge a
 24kw pack in 10 hours making a useful vehicle. It might be
 able to do 20mph on solar.  I bet Dave Cloud could figure
 it out.  The Dolphin is a very cleaver vehicle.  I wish I
 had some land to work on an Ultravan.  Lawrence Rhodes
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 > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Willy and All,

We did well as luckily Irma went 
inland earlier lowering it's power from insane to manageable for me east  Tampa 
..
 Only 2 fences fell thought a lot 
of water damage but overall not bad.  Lost power last night at 6:45 pm so went 
though the night so now the power is back on in the last 30 minutes luckily.  
Still 500k without power in just my county.
They are saying it hit me dead 
on the eye's center with 100mph+.   But I went to sleep at 9pm as no TV, 
internet even with my 12vdc system so I'll have to make the TV and internet 
modem work on 12vdc though more likely to buy a pure sine wave inverter after
 this and go offgrid.
 Things could have been far worse 
had it stayed just offshore and kept it's full strength.
  Things should be better at the 
Clunns 50 miles north of me who looks like also got hit by the eye.  Let's hope 
they are ok as trees are the biggest danger.. 
  The chassis mold got wet for the  
 63 Vette so I might have to do it again if it warps but that is easy.
Jerry Dycus












On Sun, 9/10/17, jerry freedomev via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Cc: "jerry freedomev" <freedo...@yahoo.com>
 Date: Sunday, September 10, 2017, 10:30 AM
 
            
                
     Hi Willy and All,
 
          
                
                
    I'm 4 miles east  of Tampa Bay, close or at
 ground zero as the track presently is and where the max
 winds will be, the dangerous quadrant .   I'm at 52'
 and immune to flooding, can't get deeper than 2" and only
 until the downpour keeps up a 4"/hr rate for a while as
 either soak into the sand or run slightly downhill. and as
 an old Florida boy, I know better. 
          
                
                
    But likely over 100mph winds so I already signed
 into a cat 5 shelter and have other options too.
          
                
                
    My place, 63 Vette body, chassis, workshops, etc
 can't though.
          
                
                
    I'm boarded up, packed but will wait until things
 get over 45mph steady then hit the shelter for about 10 hrs,
 and get back once wind go down to 50mph.   
          
                
                  The
 Clunns are  in low lying like most all of that area in
 a mandatory evacuation zone I believe the whole county is
 under.   
          
                
                
    I have an old friend living a couple miles from them
 on higher land and he is leaving east.
          
                
                
   And close to the coast and good  possibility can
 get hit by 100mph+ winds and  the surge  if the
 present course verifies after the storm passes.  Most
 it'll depend on the forward speed as it takes time for the
 winds to build up the surge but presently say 12-15' in
 their area.  
          
                
                  And
 the massive rains that might happen can bring the flood from
 inland.
          
                
                  All
 up if it stays at 120mph + just offshore putting the most
 dangerous winds right on the coastal areas most densely
 populated and the most time to make the surge, damage will
 be extensive losing maybe 25% of homes, buildings and
 literally changing the coastline      .
          
                
                
 Taking out whole islands, losing 200-500' of
 coast/beaches  with our most expensive properties is
 likely if it goes as they say.
          
                
                  The
 first feeder bands are coming through Tampa now but they are
 mostly just good rain storms. 
          
                
                
     It just hit the Keys with 130mph winds so
 likely will be little left for 40 miles likely taking out
 the only road, US1 for weeks, months even.
          
                
                
   Let's hope it speeds up and veers west but the just
 make it bad for others on the upper gulf coast.   
  We'll survive but is going to take a lot to put it back
 together.  I'll do fine as I can rebuild fairly fast,
 low cost if needed, even better. 
          
                
                My big
 worry and interestingly protects us is I live in an old oak
 forest that protects us from winds until they fall down,
 which is the major reason I'm not staying home in the worse
 part in case they do.
          
                
               All our
 trees take out the powerlines like in Charlie a weaker storm
 that hot

Re: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Willy and All,

 I'm 4 miles east  of Tampa Bay, 
close or at ground zero as the track presently is and where the max winds will 
be, the dangerous quadrant .   I'm at 52' and immune to flooding, can't get 
deeper than 2" and only until the downpour keeps up a 4"/hr rate for a while as 
either soak into the sand or run slightly downhill. and as an old Florida boy, 
I know better. 
 But likely over 100mph winds so I 
already signed into a cat 5 shelter and have other options too.
 My place, 63 Vette body, chassis, 
workshops, etc can't though.
 I'm boarded up, packed but will 
wait until things get over 45mph steady then hit the shelter for about 10 hrs, 
and get back once wind go down to 50mph.   
   The Clunns are  in low lying like 
most all of that area in a mandatory evacuation zone I believe the whole county 
is under.   
 I have an old friend living a 
couple miles from them on higher land and he is leaving east.
And close to the coast and good  
possibility can get hit by 100mph+ winds and  the surge  if the present course 
verifies after the storm passes.  Most it'll depend on the forward speed as it 
takes time for the winds to build up the surge but presently say 12-15' in 
their area.  
   And the massive rains that might 
happen can bring the flood from inland.
   All up if it stays at 120mph + just 
offshore putting the most dangerous winds right on the coastal areas most 
densely populated and the most time to make the surge, damage will be extensive 
losing maybe 25% of homes, buildings and literally changing the coastline  .
  Taking out whole islands, losing 
200-500' of coast/beaches  with our most expensive properties is likely if it 
goes as they say.
   The first feeder bands are coming 
through Tampa now but they are mostly just good rain storms. 
  It just hit the Keys with 130mph 
winds so likely will be little left for 40 miles likely taking out the only 
road, US1 for weeks, months even.
Let's hope it speeds up and veers 
west but the just make it bad for others on the upper gulf coast. We'll 
survive but is going to take a lot to put it back together.  I'll do fine as I 
can rebuild fairly fast, low cost if needed, even better. 
 My big worry and interestingly 
protects us is I live in an old oak forest that protects us from winds until 
they fall down, which is the major reason I'm not staying home in the worse 
part in case they do.
All our trees take out the powerlines 
like in Charlie a weaker storm that hot me with 75mph winds and took out put 
with 3 hot miserable days of listening to generators.  Likely it'll be days, 
even a week longer.  Last time I just used my lightweight EV's to supply my 
power and almost ran out just when the power came back on.   I had a set up wit 
7-11 to recharge my EVs I normally used for extending my 40 mile range but 
didn't need it.
 Now I have solar, batteries so no 
problem for me. 
 Going to be an interesting 24 hours.  

Jerry Dycus
  



On Sun, 9/10/17, Willie via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] I wonder where the Clunns are
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Willie" 
 Date: Sunday, September 10, 2017, 8:00 AM
 
 I've heard Crystal River is under an
 evacuation order.  Even though most 
 houses in the area are on the ground,
 the Clunn house is on stilts. 
 They may have decided to stick it out.
 
 In what part of the state does Jerry
 Dycus live?
 
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Re: [EVDL] Slow due to 96V pack?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi John and All,
Since they haven't been worked they 
are going to need at least 5 cycles to waken up and likely 10 cycles to get to 
their real 
potential.
 Jerry Dycus



On Sat, 9/9/17, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slow due to 96V pack?
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "John Lussmyer" 
 Date: Saturday, September 9, 2017, 10:14 PM
 
 On Fri Sep 08 21:57:43 PDT 2017
 ev@lists.evdl.org
 said:
 >There is both a battery low
 voltage limit and a motor high voltage limit.
 >There is also a motor current limit and a
 battery current limit.
 >
 >You need to set all four to the appropriate
 values.
 
 yes, I know.  Just
 forgot to list those Motor values as they are set to be
 irrelevant.
 1000A and 150V.
 And I was reporting Battery Amps of course.
 
 I'm pretty sure now that
 it's just too low a voltage pack.  200 Batt amps was
 the max I could pull.
 The GC batts are
 basically unused - but are a couple years old, and have had
 battery maintainers connected for that time.
 
 I'm betting he has a Z1K
 LV - so that will limit how hi a voltage we can switch to
 when we switch to Lithium.
 (also dealing
 with it having 2, 10A 48V chargers - one of which is dead,
 so you have to switch the other charger back and forth
 between pack halves.  sigh.)
 This guy
 can't afford a bunch of upgrades immediately though.
 
 
 --
 
 Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] Lynch motor

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Andrew and All,
  Speaking of wind generators I've been 
thinking PM EV motors  could have a second life as a WG alternator and already 
have a fine step up gearbox built in.
  As for the Lynch it does produce low 
enough as your rpm is likely under 300rpm so not enough voltage though a motor 
controller on regen could step it up.
  Also far cheaper ones, google EV 
motorcycle  motors depending on your use, many are also pancake motors. 
   So let us know your actual use can give 
a better recommendation.
   Jerry 
Dycus 



On Sat, 8/26/17, Alan Brinkman via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lynch motor
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Alan Brinkman" 
 Date: Saturday, August 26, 2017, 2:28 PM
 
 Andrew,
 
 I read your question too fast and thought of
 wind powered generator. The  below response was aimed at
 wind power.
 
 The Lynch is a
 quality motor. Agni, PMG, ETEK, there are several good
 makers of a similar motor. I was going to mention to go with
 a brushed motor for simplicity, but researched three phase
 motors with charge controllers or rectifiers to produce DC
 power.
 
 Then I thought about
 one wire car alternators. There is a company, WindBlue Power
 that takes new parts for an alternator and winds them with
 thinner wire, but more of it to increase the production at
 low RPM, and puts in strong magnets as well. They sell kits
 at a reasonable price.
 http://www.windbluepower.com/
 
 I have no connection to this
 company.
 
 Be safe!
 
 Alan
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org]
 On Behalf Of Andrew Wood via EV
 Sent:
 Saturday, August 26, 2017 10:06 AM
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: Andrew Wood 
 Subject: [EVDL] Lynch motor
 
 What are peoples views on using a Lynch motor
 as a generator. Im looking for something compact hence my
 preference for a Lynch pancake unless anyone can recommend
 anything better.
 ThanksAndrew
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Re: [EVDL] All composite 63 Vette EV body out of the mold.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Thomas and All,
  Not much to see for a while .   Just looks 
like a 63 Vette shell..  I should have a blog, etc soon so people can follow it.
  Go to the USBody fiberglass keywords and 
click on 63-67 Corvette on the left and you can see the parts where I'm at now, 
from the same mold.  Click on the pic and more finished ones show up.
Jerry Dycus
   
 

 

On Fri, 6/30/17, Thomas Brannan <tebran...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] All composite 63 Vette EV body out of the mold.
 To: "jerry freedomev" <freedo...@yahoo.com>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Date: Friday, June 30, 2017, 5:03 AM
 
 Jerry-
 Would love to see some pictures as your build
 progresses!Thanks,Tom
 On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at
 7:27 AM, jerry freedomev via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 wrote:
      
                      Hi All,
 
                               Things are
 moving along in my 63 Vette looking EV project.   The
 body, hood, doors were pulled out of the molds Friday so now
 the fun begins!! ;^)
 
                               It still has
 some touchup, fitting the doors but should have it home
 Friday.   The shop with the mold which normally make drag
 racer bodies, USBody,  were amazed how strong it was with
 my layup inside to make it structural as going to be a
 unibody/monocoque with a composite chassis bonded into a
 single piece.
 
                             It is the male
 mold for my actual production one which I'll modify some
 to make more aero, easier, stronger to build  at less
 weight and make the production simplified molds  from it. 
   The mold it came out of has 10 parts vs mine will be 3
 parts.  ;^)
 
                             Now in the process
 of taking a 90 C4  Vette apart for suspension, steering,
 A/C, etc which I'm selling the other parts to pay for it
 and take the motor out which being fairly handicapped now, I
 just can't do anymore.  So I sold the transmission for
 $100 but to get it they have to take the motor, A/C,
 
  etc out.
 
                           Once that is done
 Saturday I hope, I can handle the rest by working until I
 hurt too much, rest, repeat at my home shop.
 
                            Once the suspension
 is off I can design, build the composite chassis and mate it
 all together fairly quickly.
 
                             Right now using
 2  6.7"motors because I own them, I'm on SSI so
 lowest cost is a big factor,  but hopefully I can get an
 A/C EV motor/controller that is hacked I can use.   But
 must be a shaft output I can put on a diff .  Might have to
 change rear suspension so I can adapt a Tesla to it now they
 have been hacked.   And hard to beat in power, cost as
 more crash.
 
                              It should end up
 weighing 1800lbs or so with 2 Volt packs worth 600kw if I
 can use it which should get me 150, maybe -200 mile range as
 I drive it.
 
                              As now legal to
 build 325 25 yr old or more looking cars/yr/model and 5k/yr
 /company with minimal/Hot rod regulations, my goal is
 producing production lines of multiple models including El
 Camino, a Van, A Brubaker Box style gull wing tiny van, 68
 Mustang fastback, etc.
 
                              All done the
 same tech in  EVs drives to get EVs being produced locally
 since big auto certainly isn't going to fast enough as
 they have shown.
 
                                        
         Jerry Dycus
 
 
 
 
 
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 index.html#usub
 
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 Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
 group/NEDRA)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 “The
 purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our
 souls" ~
 Pablo Picasso
 
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[EVDL] All composite 63 Vette EV body out of the mold.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi All,
  Things are moving along in my 63 Vette looking EV 
project.   The body, hood, doors were pulled out of the molds Friday so now the 
fun begins!! ;^)
  It still has some touchup, fitting the doors but 
should have it home Friday.   The shop with the mold which normally make drag 
racer bodies, USBody,  were amazed how strong it was with my layup inside to 
make it structural as going to be a unibody/monocoque with a composite chassis 
bonded into a single piece.
It is the male mold for my actual production one 
which I'll modify some to make more aero, easier, stronger to build  at less 
weight and make the production simplified molds  from it.The mold it came 
out of has 10 parts vs mine will be 3 parts.  ;^)
Now in the process of taking a 90 C4  Vette apart 
for suspension, steering, A/C, etc which I'm selling the other parts to pay for 
it and take the motor out which being fairly handicapped now, I just can't do 
anymore.  So I sold the transmission for $100 but to get it they have to take 
the motor, A/C,
 etc out.
  Once that is done Saturday I hope, I can handle the 
rest by working until I hurt too much, rest, repeat at my home shop.  
   Once the suspension is off I can design, build the 
composite chassis and mate it all together fairly quickly.
Right now using 2  6.7"motors because I own them, 
I'm on SSI so lowest cost is a big factor,  but hopefully I can get an A/C EV 
motor/controller that is hacked I can use.   But must be a shaft output I can 
put on a diff .  Might have to change rear suspension so I can adapt a Tesla to 
it now they have been hacked.   And hard to beat in power, cost as more crash.  
 
 It should end up weighing 1800lbs or so with 2 
Volt packs worth 600kw if I can use it which should get me 150, maybe -200 mile 
range as I drive it.
 As now legal to build 325 25 yr old or more 
looking cars/yr/model and 5k/yr /company with minimal/Hot rod regulations, my 
goal is producing production lines of multiple models including El Camino, a 
Van, A Brubaker Box style gull wing tiny van, 68 Mustang fastback, etc.
 All done the same tech in  EVs drives to get EVs 
being produced locally since big auto certainly isn't going to fast enough as 
they have shown.
Jerry Dycus
 
   
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Re: [EVDL] EARTH DAY 2017

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Steve and All,

   Things are not that bad.   I just sold  Volt 
pack modules  to replace a lead pack in Tarpon Springs last week and the 404 
meter you sold me, I'll need another one shortly.
   In St Pete I've been asked to do a 
workshop/class  building one of my EV Trike Pickups for the Eco Village there 
which they'll use as
 needed .
   Talked with the St Pete Mayor's assistant 
about  producing various lightweight EVs as a jobs creator along with my 63 
Vette EV, El Camino and other EV projects and getting far more solar, wind by 
cutting permit fees, making standards, etc.  Maybe take the city off Duke and 
make their own more green lower cost system.
And St Pete has a good number of chargers 
for anyone downtown at least.
Going to the various car meets would get 
those interested in building cars to look to build or convert EVs.
 Making EVs that are not available as big 
auto kind of have sedans covered, pickups, lightweight EVs and composite EVs 
are some of the sellable choices.  
 And as I was looking around it dawned on 
me I finally have everything needed to finish the FreedomEV, a 3wh, 2 in the 
front  2 seat composite  150 mile lithium powered EV.
I'd promised I wouldn't buy new lead 
batteries but got the cores from the lithium  pack swap to get my EV trike 
pickup back on the road which I did this morning.  The less good ones will be 
to store solar as I go offgrid.
  Jerry Dycus



On Sat, 4/15/17, Steve Clunn via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EARTH DAY 2017
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Saturday, April 15, 2017, 10:18 AM
 
 In the past, Earth day has been a great
 opportunity to show off DIY
 Electric Cars.  For 18 years I
 hosted an Event in my home town on
 Earth Day, Fort Pierce Electric Car
 Rally.  Since moving to the Gulf
 Coast of Florida we have been going to
 other Earth Day Events in Tampa
 and St. Petersburg. Since we are on
 their mailing list, the
 organizers, once again, sent us an
 email telling about their event and
 inviting us to come.  Upon
 responding to their email about bringing
 our conversion, ( As we have the last 3
 years),  we were told that we
 were welcomed to come, but not to bring
 any DIY vehicle because this
 year they want to concentrate on OEM
 Vehicles only.
 
 I believe, one of the purposes of DIYs
 was to show people what the car
 companies could do,  with the idea
 that if people demanded Electric
 Vehicle, they would build them, and
 they did.
 
 We seem to be entering the next part of
 the cycle.
 
 "why would I build an EV when I can buy
 a USED OEM EV for less than
 what it costs to make".
 
 "why would I build a car with only a
 50  mile range".?
 
 "why can't DIY's charge as fast as the
 Tesla"?
 
 The opportunities have never been
 better for DIY people. The parts
 seem to be cheaper and there is an
 abundance of USED parts on the
 market.  That said, interest in
 doing conversions is at an all time
 low I believe.   This list was
 originally created to HELP people with
 their conversions, sharing information
 on how to tackle problems of
 converting a GAS car to Electric. 
  I see very little on this list any
 more about anyone doing a
 conversion.  Most of what is on the list is
 about the new cars coming out and
 public charging of OEM cars.
 
 I think at this point we can look back
 and say, The best time for
 DIY's was around 2005 to 2008?
 
 The change that we have tried to
 initiate is now trying to eradicate
 its originator.
 
 -- 
 Steve Clunn
 Merging the best of the past with
 the best of the future.
 www.Greenshedconversions.com
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Re: [EVDL] WorkHorse EV?, UPS truck whirring? Whaaaat!?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Lawrence and All,
Likely a WorkHorse  EV van they bought a 
boatload of.  And Duke bought a bunch of their crewcab pickups.  The pickup 
would be a big seller if they sell them to the public but so far, just to 
fleets.

Jerry Dycus



On Fri, 4/7/17, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] UPS truck whirring?  Wht!?
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Friday, April 7, 2017, 3:16 PM
 
 I was in Modesto today.  A UPS truck
 made a U turn and whirred away.  Wht!?
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Re: [EVDL] EV Travel Tailer?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Robert and All,
 There certainly can be nice aero trailers that 
take little power to tow.  In bad aero EVs like the Leaf, they can even clean 
up it's aero enough to barely effect range.
   But the examples are not it.  Their aero isn't 
good as the movable roof version has bad aero sides, flat and all the things 
sticking out on them,  and the roof while started out good, got too steep and 
the angle causing the air to break away into diverging vortexes, creating drag.
   They have the right idea on weight, honeycomb 
panels  but fail in execution with so many parts, labor makes a weak, heavier, 
costly   structure.
To be really aero the front needs a clean 1' or 
more  radius to the sides, top. Then a gentle widening curve to the widest, 
highest points and then a gentle inward curve to the rear and cut off cleanly.
 From in front of the widest point to the rear 
there can't be anything but smooth surface so your windows, doors, etc in the 
front and back though  non opening side windows of sheets of plastic without 
breaks works.
Done in composites in 3 pieces epoxied 
together, top, floor and rear make a strong, light structural box at a fraction 
of the labor, material costs of your example.
  A nice 12' and 16' design can even have a 
shower, nice for 2 to live in while pulled by an EV without losing much range.
I'm planning on building a cargo and maybe 
camper version of this shape this yr just for EVs as I haven't seen any others 
available but must be out there as not rocket science to show how to do EV 
trailers.

Jerry Dycus
  
  



On Wed, 2/15/17, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EV Travel Tailer?
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Wednesday, February 15, 2017, 6:49 PM
 
 I know an EV is not designed to pull
 a travel trailer.
 But this very expensive tear-drop design claims 25% the
 towing drag of a
 conventional tailer.
 
 http://www.safaricondo.com/pdf/alto_en.pdf
 
 Someday, there will be an EV good for this.
 
 Someday, when I retire, I can see traveling from
 park-to-park towing such
 an efficient trailer behind an EV:
 
 Not trying to go 75MPH, but maybe 60 MPH to enjoy the trip
 Not trying to do 500 miles a day, but more like 200 miles a
 day max.
 
 We can dream can't we?
 
 I've pulled my boat and Communications trailers behind my
 2004 Prius
 easily (but not more than local half hour trips...) but they
 say you can't
 do that... but you can if you use common sense and don't try
 to hit top
 speed!  And keep your eye and ear on how the car is
 handling it...
 
 Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Used Volt packs, Leaf battery pack connector

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Tom and All,
  Volt packs have good and bad points.   Good 
is they seem to have a long life and put out good power and cost less.  They 
are also available because of other things like bulky, hard to make packs from 
as just 4-5-7 kwhr modules limited to multiples of 48vdc/2kwhr mostly.
  One should not buy, charge loose modules that 
don't have end plates.   If you do I've found out the cells will be damaged as 
they swell if not restricted.  Fact is I'd never buy  modules that wasn't 
complete including BMS and never apart.  Also it makes sure they are all from 
the same car aged the same.
   Not hard though as the cheapest way is 
buying a sealed pack or crashed EV running $1500-$2k now.  It comes with lots 
of goodies too you'll need like wiring, connectors, BMS, etc..
   And use cooling as the heat will build up as 
the cells are buried in the plastic casing and coolant the only way to get heat 
out effectively..,
They are bulky, hard to fit and 3 different 
sizes so make sure they'll fit. 
Wrecked Volts are getting common and other 
than EV people, no one wants them.
Has anyone hacked the Volt 2012-13 BMS yet?
   Thanks,
   Jerry Dycus
 
 On Friday, December 23, 2016, tomw via EV
 
 wrote:
 
 > May I ask why
 the two of you (John, Cor) decided to use Leaf packs
 rather
 > than Volt packs?  The spinel
 chemistry used in Leaf batteries is known to
 > be
 > inferior to the
 NMC chemistry which I think is used in Volt packs, and
 the
 > Volt packs have liquid temperature
 control to further improve longevity. On
 > the other hand, the Leaf modules seem to
 be much easier to work with if you
 > want
 to make a custom pack, say by combining the basic 2s2p
 modules in
 > parallel to make higher Ah
 modules, or to fit an existing battery box in a
 > conversion.
 >
 > Then there are also Tesla S modules
 available which seem to be the best
 >
 chemistry for longevity and the highest energy density. 
 Some are concerned
 > with the safety of
 these higher energy density cells, but the Tesla packs
 > seem very well designed for safety with
 each cell fused on both anode and
 >
 cathode, and my understanding is you have access to the bms
 wires from each
 > module so can
 straight-forwardly connect a bms to them.
 >
 > Just wondering what
 drove your decision.  I've toyed with the idea of
 using
 > one of the above in my conversion
 for a couple years now, but my LiFePO4
 >
 pack, though 7 years old, is still doing fine so I'm
 reticent to spend more
 > money on
 batteries, and I'd kind of like to see how long it lasts
 before
 > significant degradation.  I
 lean more toward Tesla modules since I could
 > double my pack size and have a bit LESS
 weight, and I think with proper
 > care
 > in the implementation, packaging, and
 operation (bms) they would be safe.
 >
 > I also prefer liquid cooling since I think
 the end of life of my cells will
 > be
 caused by creeping up internal resistance, not capacity
 loss.  We get
 > fairly high temperatures
 here in July and August (~100F, sometimes above)
 > so
 > the higher
 internal resistance will result in more pack heating and
 pack
 > temperatures exceeding the ~40C
 (104F) limit above which it seems that
 >
 greater deterioration occurs. I've exceeded that a few
 times, and expect it
 > will get more
 frequent as ir creeps up.
 >
 > --
 > View this message
 in context: http://electric-vehicle-
 >
 discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Leaf-battery-pack-
 > connector-tp4684927p4685015.html
 > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion
 List mailing list archive at
 >
 Nabble.com.
 >
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 > group/NEDRA)
 >
 >
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 --
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 scrubbed...
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Na Researchers reveal 650mi on single-charge Tesla 'superbatteries'

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Paul and All,

 Rolling drag is always there and directly proportional to 
weight . Since always there is the biggest factor in normal EV driving.
  Aero is big starting around 25mph? Don't  believe it try to 
hold a 1 ft sq board out your car window at 25 mph.
 Most cars cross aero being more from 35 to 45mph.
  Thus if you want the most range for the least money light and 
aero is the only way, it plain basic physics. If you want to do freeway aero is 
much more important as drag goes up the cube of speed.
 Nor does size have much to do with it as long as they are 
light and aero for its job.
 Light doesn't  mean unsafe, F1 is very light and they walk 
away from 200 mph crashes. Using medium  composite tech can make an EV even 
safer and lighter with Kevlar type fabrics, good design.
 One thing I won't  do is build a low EV as when  i was 25 in 
LA i watched a 65 Mustang drive thru a Lotus  Europa . Not kidding it drove 
right though the passenger side from behind leaving it about 1 ft tall.  
Luckily for the driver who came out barely scratched.  After that I want to be 
high enough to be hit to bounce away, not run over.
 Overall designed, done right a composite aero EV the size of 
the Bolt would go 200 miles on just 24kwhr while being safer than a metal car 
at 40%  of the cost and weigh 1600 lbs.
  Check out the GM UltraLite done in its EV form and medium 
tech composites is 1k lbs , $15k, but GM refuses to build it. 
Jerry Dycus 







On Wed, 9/14/16, paul dove via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Na Researchers reveal 650mi on single-charge Tesla   
'superbatteries'
 To: "Lawrence Rhodes" , "Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List" 
 Date: Wednesday, September 14, 2016, 6:46 PM
 
 Yeah, I think your mixing
 the two up by lumping them together as more efficient.
 Aerodynamics buys you very little gain especially below 50
 mph. Weight is directly related to energy consumption by the
 formula I gave. I did a spread sheet and graph on my car and
 weight dominated till you got over 50 to 60 mph. The problem
 with reducing weight in a commercial vehicle is that
 something else has to give. Safety features, comfort and
 amenities, such as air and heat or seats, sound blocking
 etc. vey small market if any for those cars especially since
 it's still going to cost as much as a midsize sedan. No,
 I still believe the gains will be seen in battery
 advancement.
 
 Sent from my
 iPhone
 
 > On Sep 14,
 2016, at 11:48 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Hey,
 Paul,
 > Aerodynamics is important.  I
 guess you never heard of Dave Clouds Dolphin or the project
 Lee Hart & Jerry Dycus have been doing for a decade. 
 There is no reason to make cars from steel other than
 economy of build.  There is no reason not to be aerodynamic
 except for styling. It's proven that a sparse but
 comfortable vehicle will perform much better than a Tesla in
 efficiency.  Of course not in performance.  That being
 said I'd love to have a Tesla.  But that being said if
 I had a Tesla I'd use much more energy than I'd need
 to go 400 miles.  In a properly designed vehicle 15kw would
 get you 400 miles.  In a porky Tesla 85kw ...lets be
 generous...300 miles.  So almost 6 times the energy to go
 3/4trs the distance.  Seems to me light and aero is the way
 to go.  Don't forget it's even more efficient when
 driving during daylight hours as the solar panel can extend
 the range even further than 400 miles.  The record set by
 Stella Lux is 932 miles on one charge (over two days)wit
  h assistance from the solar panel.  There is
 belief and then there is the math.  Just do the math all
 you car designers.  Lawrence Rhodes
 >
 
 >      From: paul dove 
 > To: Lawrence Rhodes ;
 Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016
 3:50 AM
 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Na
 Researchers reveal 650mi on single-charge Tesla
 'superbatteries'
 > 
 > Hey Lawrence, 
 > 
 > Yeah I don't believe that is true.
 Their may be some game by reducing weight I don't think
 aerodynamics is going to play into it unless it's a
 sports car. Most people purchase a car
 >
 For other reasons then economy. Comfort, utility, whatever
 fits their lifestyle. Weight is the greatest factor in the
 range of your vehicle. I have two electric vehicles and they
 both follow the rule of thumb weight/10 = watts per mile.
 This changes based on how you drive but that's the
 average again. I believe battery technology will continue to
 improve for another 10 years. I think the bigger problem is
 the charging infrastructure. The cars are good enough now
 and the 

Re: [EVDL] NiCd (BB600): Golf Cart& Forklift PbSO4 battery alternatives

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Willie and All,
   Be careful buying nicads strange to you as many,  most  have 
very low power, amp output. Check their model  specs first as only high output 
ones are useful for us.

 Jerry Dycus

On Sat, 9/3/16, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] NiCd (BB600): Golf Cart& Forklift PbSO4 battery 
alternatives
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Saturday, September 3, 2016, 3:41 PM
 
 On 09/03/2016 01:25 PM,
 brucedp5 via EV wrote:
 > IMO, Lee's
 idea of switching to NiCd is best ...>bottom line
 (jumping to the
 > end of my long internet
 searches) ... look at
 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marathon-Flooded-Plate-NiCad-NiCd-batteries-11AC20-11Ah-aircraft-radio-medical-/281788934148?hash=item419bede804:g:5TwAAOSw1vlUt4~S
 >
 Since these are in Austin,
 I am willing to pick some up and either hold 
 or deliver them to certain places sometime in
 the future.  I have no 
 interest in them
 for myself.
 
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Re: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and Forklift batteries

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi John and All, 
 I do have some , 96vdc worth but wasn't thinking of selling them i got from 
Bob Rice in his big buy.
 Since they last forever , make big amps and don't die from sitting for a mower 
project they would be good.
Plus shipping to Cal from Florida is rather high.
There
 were a lot of them sold and not that many used so likely quite a few in the 
Cal area for him.
But if someone wanted them for a good project maybe a trade or if a real good 
project like a high school EV program, etc even free plus shipping or pick up 
Tampa.
I could use a used 96vdc nom or higher controller to use my Volt modules to 
best adavantage if anyone has one at a good price.
Otherwise looking at a new Kelly one.
Jerry Dycus


On Sat, 9/3/16, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and Forklift batteries
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" , "Cor van de Water" 

 Date: Saturday, September 3, 2016, 10:15 AM
 
 On Sat Sep 03 03:37:06
 PDT 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org
 said:
 >Hi Cor, John and All,
 >Sounds like a job for bb600 nicads that
 last neat forever, can handle the current easily. And lots
 of them lying around and no expensive bms, charger
 required.
 
 So, I assume you
 have some to sell?
 I haven't seen any
 available in a long time.
 
 --
 Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and Forklift batteries

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Cor, John and All,
 Sounds like a job for bb600 nicads that last neat forever, can handle 
the current easily. And lots of them lying around and no expensive bms, charger 
required.
 Jerry



On Sat, 9/3/16, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and Forklift batteries
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Saturday, September 3, 2016, 3:46 AM
 
 I was asked a similar
 thing recently, one organisation where I volunteer
 has a hydraulic lift that is needed when an "Cor, John andcall,

 works is needed to the
 walls or roof of the
 gym. Between uses it sits unused for months, so
 most of the time the 12V battery is dead. Since
 it is pretty much used
 with the charger
 plugged in, they asked if I could make a 12V power
 supply to replace the battery. I decided to
 first try and measure the
 current draw when
 the lift is operated, to get an idea what I needed for
 power supply.
 So, I dug my big
 20V 100A lab supply out of my garage and hauled it to
 the lift, disconnected its battery, set the
 power supply to 12V 100A and
 started the
 lift... nothing. Lab supply immediately went into
 overcurrent shutdown
 so now I
 tried a different route: I could read the model number of
 the
 hydraulic motor and looked up its spec.
 Aha. 300 Amps starting current.
 No wonder
 the supply went into protection. But that also meant that
 a
 power supply would be required to deliver
 almost 4kW of starting power,
 that is not
 going to happen from a 110V 15A outlet.
 I am
 considering to take 3 Leaf modules, open one in the front to
 cut
 the interconnection between the two
 pairs of cells, so I can wire all 4
 cells
 inside in parallel, then take the other two modules, put
 them in
 parallel and then add the modified
 module in series, so that it is now 4
 parallel and 3 series, giving a nice 12V for
 the pump motor and having
 400 Amps
 continuous rating.
 It will need a simple
 balancer that either throttles back the charger or
 has sufficient bypass capability to avoid the
 charger overvolting a cell
 and when all 3
 series are at 4.1V it can shut off the charger completely
 
 Cor van de Water 
 Chief Scientist 
 Proxim
 Wireless 
   
 office +1 408
 383 7626                    Skype:
 cor_van_de_water 
 XoIP   +31 87
 784 1130                    private:
 cvandewater.info 
 
 http://www.proxim.com
 
 This email message (including
 any attachments) contains confidential and
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless
 Corporation.  If you received
 this message
 in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
 unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or
 copying of any part of
 this message is
 prohibited.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org]
 On Behalf Of John Lussmyer
 via EV
 Sent: Friday, September 02, 2016 10:03 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and
 Forklift batteries
 
 I have a
 couple of old electric forklifts that I use occaisionally in
 my
 shop.
 One is a little
 walk behind unit that uses 2, 6V golf cart batteres.
 The other is a full size forklift that has a
 36V, 750AH battery.
 The batteries in both
 are old, and have close to 0 capacity.
 (To
 use the bit forklift, we actually have the charger mounted
 up on the
 guard rack above the driver, and
 pretty much have to have the charger
 plugged
 in for 30 minutes before using the lift, and also plugged
 in
 WHILE using the lift.  i.e. there is a
 2nd person managing the extension
 cord when
 the lift is in use.)
 
 So, I
 need to replace these batteries.
 I don't
 like Lead-acid batteries for these machines, as they often
 sit
 unused for months.  When I do need
 them, I generally only need them for
 15-30
 minutes to move something around the shop.
 I
 don't know the actual peak current draw on either
 lift.  (kinda hard
 to measure, especially
 now with crappy batteries.)
 
 So I'm thinking of using some smaller LiIon
 cells to get approximately
 the correct
 voltage.
 For the 36V pack, a set of 5 Leaf
 Modules may work (35V-42v) at 60Ah.  I
 hope
 they can handle the peack current demand.
 Not sure what to use on the smaller 12v unit
 though.
 
 Suggestions? (for
 either)
 
 Note: on the full
 size forklift, I'll probably replace the 2000 lb
 battery with a stack of steel plates to keep
 the weight - needed to
 balance heavy
 loads.
 
 
 --
 Bobcats and Cougars, oh
 my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] your solar at work charging. was EV's for Armagedon

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi John and All,
If one puts solar DC  to the dc plug and the signal to turn on, 
will it while moving,
 charge? 
   Why I ask is about putting solar on a trailer,  extra battery packs 
or clean fueled range extenders to give EVs long range.
 I have a good source for pv panels very cheap at times, sunelec,   
that solar carports,  an interesting old name now with a new meaning, for EV 
charging at work, etc. If the getting the charge into the pack can be solved 
cheaply by going dc to dc.   
 Won't the solar, wind, etc ec voltqge have to be somewhat higher than 
the pack top voltage other than at the very end?
 What are the actual pack top voltage, 95% charged of various EVs if 
anyone knows.
 1 kw gives about 20 miles/day average US is only 4 panels and could be 
carried even on a trailer hitch mount folded up or lightweight aero trailer 
with much more.
  Thanks in advance,
  Jerry Dycus

Sunelec and join John's blog for best deals that come and go. There are 
some for $.28/wt last time I check. They are lams, laminations which are panels 
without frames and connection boxes which for me building my own frames is 
great, lighter.  $280/KW is hard to pass up for a couple hrs of work.

On Sun, 7/17/16, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV's for Armagedon
 To: "paul dove" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Date: Sunday, July 17, 2016, 2:50 PM
 
 On Sun Jul 17 09:58:38
 PDT 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org
 said:
 >Many vehicles already have HVDC
 charging capability it's called chademo standard. If you
 have 330VDC available you just need an interface that
 complies with chademo. jack Richard of EVTV has developed
 such a product or rather had the Chinese do it. It connect
 to HVDC and with chademo to the vehicle.
 
 Does that actually exist yet?  last time I
 checked it didn't.  (There were photos of it, but it
 wasn't available.)
 
 
 
 --
 
 Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my
 dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Robert and All,   You way overstate your case in 
several ways.  First one can just use the same RMS voltage DC as AC.  It's not 
like we EV people are not use to it especially, it's arcing problem are greatly 
exaggerated with good DC practice.   Next most things even on 
12vdc run on under 2 amps, most under .5amp.  My fan is just 1 amp, LED lights 
.5 amp, computer 2amp, phone 1 amp charging, fridge 5 amps when running.
   I cook with just 5-20 amps, e blanket 2 amps at 12vdc.  Other than 
kitchen, bath, other high power unit like an A/C that one can bunch together 
you really don't need more than present 120vac wire size. And even some home  
model switches work at 120vdc IIRC, SqD?. Or use a low cost 
inverter for these .   I use a 3k wt peak, 2kw cont $129 inverter runs my a/c 
window unit.  My recent disassembly of a Miata for my next EV 
suspension also gave me an a/c unit I can drive very efficiently with a  PM 
motor  from 24vdc could make my a/c only be   200wt at about 3500btu.   
   And many power supplies now work off 300vdc+ from rectified ac so 
running 350vdc could end up using less copper if you want to get picky. And 
homes run on used EV packs as pulled from wrecks..  A well 
designed home will have centralized power, utilities, kitchen, bath making big 
copper runs very short and the rest little different.  The other savings and 
reliability of battery  DC with modern DC power supplies  makes DC at least 
competitive if not better.    Kind of like EVs fighting the 
established ICE machine, DC does have a future as homes, building go to clean 
and battery power.    And EVs will change to be part of these 
systems, especially 200 mile EVs with their excess capacity with 20-50kwhr to 
play with and still have 100 mile range. Many homes, businesses will be powered 
by these charged by solar.  Jerry Dycus

  From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging
   
> The only time high voltage helps is when you need to have long wire
runs...

The operative word  is "long"  And when you wire a house for every room
and for every appliance and for every outlet (whether used fully or not)
then every wire is "long".

The academic argument below is like saying there is nothing wrong with
falling out of an airplane.  Its only when you hit the ground that you
have a problem...

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2016 11:24 PM
To: Larry Gales; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging

Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> Thanks, I was somewhat aware of the increased use of copper, but not
> to the extent that you specify, so it looks like AC is the way to go,
> even for off-grid solar.

Lower voltage means higher current and bigger wires; but it's not as bad
as you think.

First, consider a motor or transformer. You would think that winding it
for a lower voltage / higher current would require more copper... but it
doesn't. Motors and transformers are exactly the same size, have the same
efficiency, same power rating, and use the same amount of copper no matter
what voltage they are built for.

Here's why: If you halve the voltage, you double the current (to get the
same power). But half the voltage requires half the turns. So the wire is
twice as think, but half as long. The total amount of copper thus stays
the same. This only breaks down if the voltage is so low that you need
less than 1 turn, or if the voltage is so high that excessive amounts of
space are taken up by insulation instead of copper.

Now consider a pair of identical 12v batteries. You can wire them in
series (24v), or parallel (12v). For the same power, you'll have the same
current in each battery (since their voltages are all the same).
So, the same wire size to every battery. For the sake of argument, let's
assume you connect a 12" piece of wire to every battery post, and it has
1 milliohm of resistance.

If they're in series, you have a total of 4 feet of wire total, all in
series, and so 4 milliohms of resistance. if the load is 24v at 100 amps,
then this 4 milliohms is burning up I^2R = 100^2 x 0.004 = 40 watts as
heat.

If they're in parallel, the free ends of the + wires connect together, and
the free ends of the - wires connect together. Now you have two parallel
strings, each with 2 feet of wire in it; so each string has half the
resistance or 2 milliohms. But there are two of these strings in parallel,
so the total resistance is 1 milliohm. The same load power is 12v at 200a.
I^2R losses are 200^2 x 0.001 = 40 watts.

Exactly the 

Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Larry and All,   You sure can charge your EV from 
solar, even directly if you match the solar and pack voltages.  Or you can go 
dc to dc or dc-ac and back to dc. On a dc home you can 
chose low to high voltages.  If you pick around 350vdc solar string inverters 
and production EVs use and can use crashed EV packs.    1kw of 
solar gives about 20 miles/day, more in the south, summer, less in the north, 
winter. A clean  fueled generator like B100, etc or heating 
fuel to make power first as backup fast charging dc to the batteries makes it 
most efficient.  Solar panels are so cheap, sunelec, etc, 
that one can make power around $06/kwhr which no utility can beat.  
 My home last yr was crushed by a tree and just built it's 150sq' 
replacement, I like tiny houses, for only $1200 because I'm cheap and on SSI. 
Most interesting is even thought so handicapped I can't lift the sheets of 
plywood I ended up doing all but 3 hrs myself, mostly help standing the walls 
and moving stuff I couldn't.   Even though I have grid I'm 
going solar the low cost route using my lightweight EV's as part of it, 48 and 
72vdc packs.  It'll be a 24vdc system because those voltage panels cost the 
least with the house running on 12vdc for lights, most electronics, fans, 
cooking, etc  by selecting the higher charged pack half.    
I've found cooking needs much less power than thought.  I have 2 roadpro 
insulated old style lunchbox looking hot pans, lids that get very hot on just 
11 amps.   AS do other RV. boat 12vdc pots, pans, etc. At least for 1 or 2 
people. And 2 car headlights can make a great small 
oven. And lead is still cheap as I get 50% off at local 
auto parts stores as most will bargain now. And 4-20 batteries is a big order 
so they will discount deeply.   My lightweight EVs,  EV 
trike pickup,  can be charged directly by switching the panels to 48vdc nom 
which works because it is home most of the time, only uses 60wthrs/mile and 
don't need to drive much as work at home.  So including 
my home A/C in Fla it'll only take 1kw of panels to power all this shows the 
low end of the scale.  All up the tiny house and solar will cost under $2500 so 
no one can say they can't afford either if they can afford rent, they can.
  Jerry Dycus.



On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Larry Gales via EV 
wrote:

> If you build an off-grid solar house and use it for both your house
> and charging your electric car, are there any disadvantages for using
> DC current (household appliances can all be converted to DC) and
> avoiding AC since you are off the grid?  You avoid the cost,
> maintenance, and (slight) inefficiency of inverters, but are there
> significant disadvantages to this approach?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi David and All,    It's fairly easy as no labor involved, all 
done by robots.     And in 10 yrs they will be under $50/kwhr making 
even economy cars cheaper to build and 20% to run of a gas version. 
And there are many other battery types that will be with EV's inherent 
efficiency, matching gasoline.  Then there are the improvements 
that come with lightweight, aero composite body/chassis EV's that near double 
range again.   Leaf's sell so cheap because of tax credits and 
fear.   If you start with the price after the tax credits, discounts, Leaf's 
are doing well in resale value.  And the Leaf's present cost to 
make is about $12k for the EV and $5k for the battery and dropping.  So they 
still have lots of room to drop the price.  Likely the tax credits are the 
reason they cost as high as they do.     Same thing happened to 
solar panels when Germany, Spain subsidies were so large it kept the prices 
high.    Then when the subsidies were greatly cut we now have panels 10% of 
their former price. EV's cost less to build than a gas car 
other than the batteries with a 50kwhr pack soon costing $6k, a 30kwhr pack 
$3k, EV's soon will cost less than a gas car of any type.   
    Jerry Dycus .



  From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 4:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)
   
I'm hardly an expert on these matters, but over 7000 cells in a battery? 
Good grief. With the stupefying amount of labor that has to go into 
assembling such batteries, I don't see how Tesla (or anyone) can ever build 
an EV for the masses

By this I mean an EV that anyone can afford, with performance (including 
range) pretty close to an equivalent ICEV.  

I don't mean a $37k EV (you don't really think that $7500 subsidy is going 
to last, do you?). I'm talking about an EV that costs what an ICE Toyota 
Yaris or Honda Fit costs, or less, and presents the same creature comforts, 
with a range of at least 200 miles.

We know that 100 mile range is plenty.  A few people will accept that, and a 
few will pay a premium over the cost of an equivalent ICEV.  Most won't.  
That's why used Leafs are so unsettlingly cheap - it's supply and demand.  

IMO, EVs won't become truly mainstream until they cost not just the same as, 
but LESS than equivalent ICEVs.  I actually hope I'm proven wrong, but from 
here I don't see that happening with an EV battery containing thousands of 
tiny cells.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV Boat

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi George and All,   My health has caused me to 
not live on the water now so the Tri main hull/cabin has turned into a very 
aero travel trailer that I'm living in now.   I'll be doing the 
same things on land though and likely design, build solar boats for others and 
for various boat companies as I move to St Pete after selling my home.  
 Likely concentrate on building composite  EV's and solar plug and play 
and wind systems.   
 Jerry Dycus       
  From: George McNeir 
 To: jerry freedomev  
Cc: via EV 
 Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 11:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Boat
   
Jerry,

Thank you for your 3 following concerns…...

1. In winds or getting caught in a fast tide the boat could be out of control 
and you don't have enough power to handle it.

>>Every boater should factor their boat, their experience & limitations, 
>>applying the sum to the area of passage, navigating accordingly.
There will never be enough power to overcome stupidity.

2. While it can move some in good conditions, weather can go bad fast.

>>Make sure that sentence is on a nice shiny brass plate attached prominently 
>>to your helm.

3. What I said still stands, ignore it if you want but my 45 yr boat design, 
building, sailing, solar and powering experience says 
you need to be very careful and have multiple large anchors.

>>Many would be interested in your boat designs and boat builds. 
How is your "34 foot trimaran sail/solar powered 20 mph sail or gas power 
retirement home" coming along?
Perhaps you might share this and your gallery of past and current marine work?

Regards,

George


  
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Re: [EVDL] EV Boat

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi George and All,   In winds or getting 
caught in a fast tide the boat could be out of control and you don't have 
enough power to handle it.     While it can move some  in 
good conditions, weather can go bad fast.    What I said 
still stands, ignore it if you want but my 45 yr boat design, building, 
sailing, solar and powering experience says you need to be very careful and 
have multiple large anchors.
 Jerry Dycus 
  From: George McNeir 
 To: jerry freedomev  
Cc: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Boat
   


Jerry,
Sorry for the long period for response. It was difficult for me to come to 
fathom your reply, shown below this email.The MOG is a Totally Electric Powered 
Solar boat. I have endeavored to respond to your quips and numbered them 1 
through 8.

That is a lot of boat drag to either go fast or far.

1. The boat has logged at least 520 miles on one of its many travels. If you 
read the MOG Log from our web site (originally cited) you would be better 
informed.

Just not a great choice for solar power.

2. This MOG configuration has been hailed in myriad publications, by certified 
naval architects, engineers and boat designers as one of the best applications 
of solar power.

Next since it can only go max 5mph on E

3. Over a measured mile it has exceeded its maximum hull speed, 7 knots. The 
hull design by Graham Byrnes, Naval Architect is very efficient. 
http://towndock.net/news/boat-designer-and-teacher-graham-byrnes-honored?pg=1   
 Please notice the picture of the 22’ Cat Ketch he designed for racing (& 
winning).

2 speeds would be fine.

4. Evidently you have been misinformed about boat handling of a 40 foot boat 
negotiating in a marina fairway. 2 speeds is absurd.

Not likely to ever be more than a few mile range at low speed on electricity.

5. Think again please, there is no range limitation…. period. The boat has left 
Oriental, NC and logged 40 miles on the Alligator (tidal) passage. It left at 
100% and arrived at 94% charge (Sun).

 only 1.5hp of solar now.

6. At 2,585 watts of just solar, the hp is 3.46, with no counting the added 
storage from the 20 kW below deck. And that is only based on the present 
prototype. 1.5 hp provides about 3 mph.

eCycle electric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced alkaline fuel 
cells, thin/flexible PV modules'These are needlessly expensive or 
just not viable at all.

7. “Primarily I asked for dialog”. How in heaven’s name do you twist that 
request into my implementing any of the named items beyond the eCycle motor and 
Navitas controller?Your conclusion that I want information on ‘buying’ eCycle 
motors, cap/batteries amalgamations, advanced cells, flexible PVs is 100% 
incorrect. I want to dialog with those people that have ‘used’ these items. You 
have imposed your version of reality where it is totally inapplicable. Lastly 
you tell me that these items are not viable for my application. You demonstrate 
no experience in naval architecture, do not own a Navitas controller, have 
never run an eCycle motor, do not possess a large array of flexible PV’s and I 
challenge you to present an array of pictures and videos of a 40 foot boat you 
have built, none the less designed.
Please stick to the author’s request and that was to dialog with those that 
have such experience, rather than interjecting oneself into areas beyond actual 
use.

A real canal/narrowboat would be great.

8. Some due diligence would suggest, that outside of a true narrow canal (no 
waves, no flow and no tides), a flat bottom narrowboat is the worst of all 
designs for intracoastal waters (our MOG’s stated area of navigation). Narrow 
boats, a type of canal boat, are NOT to be used on large bodies of water and 
tidal flows (fast water for a narrowboat is 2-3 mph).   From a UK canal boat 
site……  
   
   - Never go out in fast water. Locks on rivers have a guide showing the 
height (and therefore speed) of the water, don't go out onto the river if the 
guide is "in the red”.
A car (with which you have experience) may pull off the road, park and have 
remedy to any common road situation unaffected by tide, wind, waves and sinking.
If you do not know something about the MOG Totally Electric Powered Solar boat, 
kindly consult the sites I had provided, ask questions and I will reply nicely. 
 George


On Apr 27, 2015, at 5:20 AM, jerry freedomev  wrote:


  Hi George and All,    That is a lot of boat drag to either go fast or 
far.   Just not a great choice for solar power.   Next since it can 
only go max 5mph on E and few miles depending on your battery pack hard to 
justify it.  And no need of expensive controllers, E cycle motors as 2 speeds 
would be fine.  

Re: [EVDL] Aero, Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 
  Hi Bill and All,    I agree 
with you EV's should be aerodynamic but in reality, most are not that good. 
Take the Leaf they say is .28cd but tests prove it is higher.  And why it uses 
nearly as much a the much large, heavier Tesla S that is .  
  Next while some Mustangs, Corvettes are not great, some are fairly 
aero and with some tweaks, very aero.    And aero 
is in the details. One can be a very aero shape but badly done door seams, 
wheelwells, window attachments, etc can kill it.
 Jerry Dycus  

  From: Bill Dube via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?
   
If you are going to sell them after you build one of your own, it is 
going to be very difficult to beat the Tesla on performance, safety, and 
value/dollar.

You want a convertible, cut the top off of a Tesla. Do it very nicely 
and neatly of course, but that would be your best option. Sell that 
customized model of a Tesla, using the same business model as van 
conversions, stretch limos, and bulletproof cars use.

One thing that you are not taking into account is that all OEM EVs are 
_very_ aerodynamic. (No exceptions.) This is directly related to range, 
the cost of the battery pack, the weight of the battery pack, and the 
cost of the car. A car with crappy range simply won't sell. Likewise, a 
car with a heavy (and expensive) battery pack to make up for a bad Cd 
will take a performance hit because of the extra weight, and won't sell 
either.

    ICE cars really don't have to be aerodynamic to sell well. Poor 
aero doesn't impact the purchase price, or the weight of the vehicle, 
and doesn't alter the performance appreciably. All that really changes 
is the EPA estimated mileage. The customer doesn't care mostly because 
he doesn't think that far ahead.

    Thus, if you want a "classic" or "sporty" or some other styling, 
you can't sacrifice aerodynamic drag to achieve it. You must carefully 
style the car to achieve the desired look, while being very very 
aerodynamic. Not easy to do, but you must to build an EV that will 
actually sell. To sell, it must have range and performance and be 
competitive in cost. That, in turn, requires that it have a low Cd. 
Thus, a Mustang or a Corvette won't work. Awful Cd.


  
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000km Bridgestone World Solar Challenge

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Lee, Alan and All,   I even have the 
Sunrise crash video  to prove it.      It isn't that hard 
to build an all composite EV's that can do that if one is good at composites, 
especially with today's batteries that are less than 50% of the weight of 
NiMH's, reducing rolling drag.
   Jerry Dycus

  From: Lee Hart via EV 
 To: Alan Arrison ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 12:27 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000km Bridgestone World Solar Challenge
   
Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> There is simply no way a viable, fully enclosed, highway capable,
> electric vehicle ( that can pass safety tests ) can do anywhere near
> 55wh per mile.

"Well now, I wouldn't say that..." (catchphrase of Richard Q. Peavey 
character, from The Great Gildersleeve).

James Worden's 1996 Solectria "Sunrise" was a full-size 4-passenger 
sedan, built from the ground up to be an especially efficient EV. He 
drove it on many occasions from 200-400 miles on a charge. The results 
were verified in several American Tour de Sol competitions, and in 
demonstration drives between Boston and NYC at freeway speeds. The 
Sunrise had a 25 KWH pack of Ovonic nimh batteries, so going 400 miles 
on a charge meant 62.5 watthours per mile.

The Sunrise was successfully crash-tested, and met the DOT and NHTSA 
standards at the time.

And this was 20 years ago. I'm sure that today's batteries and 
technological advances can do even better.

I'm still working to build a kit-car version of the Sunrise; but it's 
been slow going due to lack of funds. A paradoxical side effect of the 
big automaker's EVs is that it's like pulling teeth to get people 
interested in conversions or kit cars.

-- 
The prime instinct of children at play is to build and to create.
They will make things of whatever materials are at hand, and use the
whole force of dream and fancy to create something out of nothing.
    -- Alfred P. Morgan
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Archaic red tape threatens New_Orleans-LA home-EVSE (v)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Bruce and All,
    A solution could be a 9'-12' high pole on his property with a 
swing arm and outlet   or a FG  pole  like they use to hold boats off docks, 
etc  again with an outlet from the end.   The whole thing could be 
an extension cord  plugging into an outlet at, in the home like a stove or 
dryer outlet making the whole thing not apply to code .  Just 1-2 extension 
cords. And put on wheels can be moved to reach  several parking spaces and no 
one else can use it unless you like them too.  Or put out a condo or apartment 
window if parked below.   Even use a flag pole looking unit 
permitted for that and electric light that hinges in the middle  over to the EV 
with the cord coming out the top.   When a problem comes up best in 
many cases is just go around it. Or in this case, over it. Codes are very 
limited in many ways with a little outside the box thinking can be overcome.
    Like building my Tiny house on a Mobile home frame  it was a 
'repair' legally so no permits of any kind needed legally.  Couldn't have 
afforded it and cost less that just the permitting costs would have been if I 
hadn't went that way.    And why I build lightweight 3wheel EV's as 
much less regulation as well as lower EV battery, drive costs.  
    Jerry Dycus From: brucedp5 via EV 

 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2015 7:11 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Archaic red tape threatens New_Orleans-LA home-EVSE (v)
   


http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/14148883-172/city-tells-algiers-point-man
City tells Algiers Point man to remove his electric vehicle charger, at
least for now
Nov. 30, 2015  JEFF ADELSON

[image  / JOHN McCUSKER
http://theadvocate.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=K8yexkMnkEr9PW2IgniMFM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYvNw0W9RkE9a$aKw3f8f7$3WCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-=image/jpeg
Vlad Ghelase with his electric car and charging station in front of his
Algiers Point home
]

Red tape threatens to pull the plug on man’s electric car charging station

After considering making the switch to an electric vehicle for years, Vlad
Ghelase finally bought a used Nissan Leaf two weeks ago.

Like many houses in older New Orleans neighborhoods, Ghelase’s lacks a
driveway, so he couldn’t put the charging station for the car next to his
Algiers Point house. Stretching a power cord across the sidewalk to the
street could present problems. So he had an electrician apply for a permit
to install a charging station next to the curb in front of his home.

And that’s when he ran into a problem that New Orleans apparently hasn’t yet
grappled with, but which is likely to become more common in the future: how
to deal with charging stations on the public property that lines the city’s
streets.

Ghelase said he’s been told his charger is in violation of the law and he
has to shut it down, giving him no way to keep his electric vehicle
operating.

City officials said they’re looking into what to do about both his charger
and what they expect to be an increasing number of similar situations in
coming years.

In the meantime, however, Ghelase said he’s been frustrated trying to figure
out how to get his charger into compliance with the law.

“That’s the irony of it. We’re in a red state with a Republican Legislature
that has incentives for electric vehicles, and the most progressive city in
the state is actually blocking it,” he said.

At least 11 people have received permits to put charging stations on their
property, according to city records. But those were actually on their
property, something that isn’t possible in areas of the city where driveways
are scarce.

From the city’s perspective, there are two separate problems with Ghelase’s
set-up, Director of Safety and Permits Jared Munster said. Anyone who builds
on city property must pay for it under rules designed to abide by the
prohibition against using public property for private gain, he said. In
addition, for safety reasons, the law prohibits allowing electrical wires to
cross property lines, even from a privately owned lot to the public right of
way in front of it, he said.

Neither of those presents insurmountable problems, Munster said.

The city’s Department of Property Maintenance could sign off on a lease of a
portion of the right of way, he said, though Ghelase said when he tried to
go that route he was told it wasn’t possible. As for the issue of crossing
property lines, Munster said the city’s Board of Building Standards and
Appeals could clear the way for Ghelase’s set-up.

But in the meantime, Munster said, the department is asking Ghelase to
disconnect his charging station.

Officials from the Department of Safety and Permits and the Department of
Property Maintenance plan to meet to discuss 

Re: [EVDL] Rickard's EVTV let the smoke out, Tesla modules for sale

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Michael and All,  My Volt 
pack has kept itself within 1/100th of a volt/cell of each other in 5 months 
and who knows how long before I got it. Using a 
Lightobject wthr meter EVTV uses to keep the voltage within bounds of 5%-95% 
shutting off charge, discharge along with multiple LeeHart battbridges to alert 
if something is going wrong which can also cut off the pack by a 
phototransistor circuit should do fine.  Not sure 
if he was only using their version of the wthr meter  as one should always have 
2 systems in case one fails.  But he did say he 
programed the cut off wrong is what I got out of the post ,meaning human error. 
 As a full BMS has a lot more failure points thus 
not fool proof either, my version should do fine as if starting to 
overcharge/discharge the Battbridge will detect it if the wthr meter alarm/shut 
off fails .  Aftermarket BMS don't have the best 
record either and  cost 30-50% of the battery price of used quality cells their 
value isn't what others say. Now if we can hack the 
stock BMS from the EV's the batteries come from would be another story.  But 
until then of aftermarket systems get better, cheaper I'll stick my way.
 BTW in case people are interested 21kwhrs of Tesla modules 
at about $4500 are on Ebay under electric vehicle batteries.
   Jerry 
Dycus
   From: Michael Ross via EV 
 To: paul dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 1:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rickard's EVTV let the smoke out> overcharged pack fire 
blew up
   
I think the self discharge complaint is growing less all the time - with
good quality cells.  But really large packs beg prudence.  A golf cart
packs, like Jack sells which will be operated by non EV types, gets real
benefit from his bottom balancing and sealing.  The little 10AH 48V packs
used in light EVs and bikes are a analogous - small, operated by the
unwashed.

Whatever is done, a really dependable charge cut off function must be part
of any system.

Our ability to evaluate cell quality, and BMS quality and function is still
suspect (particularly for the cash strapped DIYer; as opposed to a large
company with real money to command action) so I expect this argument to
continue, and it should.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 1:03 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> There is no evidence thus far to support that theory.
> It could have been a pack he uses to power his bench or one he was
> charging to put in a car.
> He does all sorts of crazy experiments like test the sag while pulling
> 1000 amps.
> From the article it didn't sound like it was in a car.
>
  
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Re: [EVDL] EVent: Plugin-Party @Arcimoto's new showroom 4-6p 10/30 Eugene-OR

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Bruce and All,    Looks very good technically for a 
change both handling design, stability at a reasonable price.  It'll give the 
new improved a lot Sparrow replacement some competition.      Let's 
wish them luck as we could use more  EV's like  them.
 Jerry Dycus
  From: brucedp5 via EV 

 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 5:14 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVent: Plugin-Party @Arcimoto's new showroom 4-6p 10/30 
Eugene-OR
   


http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/33655721-75/eugene-electric-vehicle-developer-arcimoto-to-host-plug-in-party-at-new-showroom.html.csp
Eugene electric vehicle developer Arcimoto to host ‘Plug-in Party’ at new
showroom
Sherri Buri McDonald  Oct. 30, 2015

Electric vehicle developer Arcimoto will open its new showroom at 543 Blair
Blvd. in the Whiteaker to host what it’s calling a “Plug-in Party” on Friday
from 4-6 p.m.

The event is open to the public and is scheduled to coincide with the
Whiteaker’s Last Friday Art Walk [
http://www.eugeneweekly.com/image/last-friday-art-walk
].

Arcimoto, which was founded by Mark Frohnmayer in 2007, will reveal its
plans to bring its newest generation three-wheeled electric vehicle to
market.

It also is an opportunity for electric vehicle dealers and enthusiasts to
display and talk about their cars and the public to learn about these
vehicles and the impact they can have on reducing air emissions and curbing
dependence on fossil fuels, advocates say.

“The intent of this party is to connect the community of politicians,
companies and agencies that all have the same mission — to help answer the
ultimate question of why we as a community are adopting electric vehicles,”
said Jesse Fittipaldi, business development lead at Arcimoto.

The Lane Regional Air Protection Agency and the Eugene Water and Electric
Board are partnering with Arcimoto on this event.

An EWEB representative will arrive in one of EWEB’s 2015 Ford Focus plug-in
sedans, spokesman Joe Harwood said. She will share information about EWEB’s
new Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Loan Program, which provides 4
percent loans for commercial customers to purchase and install Level 1,
Level 2 or DC fast chargers at their business or in multifamily housing with
shared parking for tenants, he said.

EWEB’s main reason for participating in Friday’s event is to reduce carbon
emissions, Harwood said.

“Approximately 30 percent of the nation’s greenhouse gasses come from the
transportation sector, and about 60 percent of that can be attributed to
personal vehicle use,” he said.

Arcimoto’s showroom is in the space between the Mame sushi bar and Hard
Times Distillery’s tasting room. It is not in Arcimoto’s design and
production shop across Blair Boulevard.
[© registerguard.com]
...
www.arcimoto.com/
Arcimoto | The Everyday Electric  The SRK from Arcimoto is the daily
electric vehicle for the rest of us ... Base Model: 12 kWh Arcimoto 18650
Li-Ion system ...
544 Blair Blvd, Eugene, OR 97402  (541) 683-6293




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: hybrid weight and EV pickup

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Cor and All,
   The Volt likely is about 250-300lbs engine,systems and alt.  
  For some reason the i3 is 365lbs for 50% of the power. I'd 
had expected MW would have done an engine right but they blew it at 2x's the 
weight or more than needed.  Lotus had done one at 115lbs and 35kw. 
    A smart way is a Metro 3cyl which at 56hp weighs in about 130lbs with 
systems plus alt replacing the flywheel or a Prius motor as alternator. 
   I owned an 80 Luv/Isuzu pickup that looked identical to the S-10 
next yr but only weighed 2400lbs and 1700 lbs stripped.  With some aero work, 
etc I'd bet it could do 250wthrs/mile for about 80 mile range with a Leaf pack. 
       With a RE above it could do most any pickup job. 
  Or one of the factory old E10's, ERangers and convert to lithium. 
    Another could be a stretched Leaf, Volt and do an El Camino 
version.  But big auto needs to do  EV pickup's soon as a big market. 
   Jerry Dycus From: Cor van de 
Water via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 3:29 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore 
Tesla
   
You only need to look at the vehicles that *do* have a
range extender such as the Volt and BMW and you have
an idea what amount of weight is added for that
particular function, especially if the range extender
is optional such as on the BMW so you can compare the
weight spec with and without...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626         Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP  +31 87 784 1130         private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 11:07 AM
To: tomw; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore 
Tesla

On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:18 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Is it capable of the 50kW continuous
> estimated for the full size pickup?

For this sort of back-of-the-envelope guesstimating, you can use a 1:1 
conversion for kW and HP. Getting 50 HP out of a 1800 cc aircooled VW motor is 
no problem. Getting even more out of something smaller and lighter using modern 
engineering methods should be trivial -- especially if designed to run only at 
the speed that corresponds with peak power output. The VW engine fully dressed, 
including clutch and intake and exhaust and the like, weighs a couple hundred 
pounds.

Generators are just motors run in reverse. The HPEVS AC-15 makes 60 HP and 
weighs 50 pounds.

If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the typical 
American passenger...that team should be fired.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) customer support

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Crusin and All,
 Since all those I saw on their website have AC plugs meaning 
San  Jose or Alameda have no jurisdiction on it.   So why are 
you saying that they do?  Jerry 
Dycus
   From: Cruisin via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 5:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Emotorworks (Juicebox) customer support
   
The device is NOT approved to be installed in San Jose or Alameda county due
to lack of approvals. There are currently some lawsuits pending as well
according to the notices on the web.

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Re: [EVDL] EV's and the grid, Light-weight 100W PV

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi David and All,    We'll have 
to see how utilities work out. Likely they will become wire utilities 
transporting others power. They will shrink until 
they can't pay their debts in their now stranded assets as customers leave the 
grid because they raised prices too much and go bankrupt likely gov taken over. 
    Here in Fla, places where Gov, co-ops run the grid 
costs are 30% less than Duke, FPL, TECO.  Since it is illegal so sell power 
here the Tea party, business, libertarians, Dems, Eco's, etc are getting 
together to pass a Fla law forcing a freer market by ballot..   
  Likely most utilities will devolve or grow into micro-grids to single 
units like home, business or factory.  Why is 
simple these leave 90% of corporate cost out of the electric bill and making 
clean power and up north, heat comes in under $.06/kwhr now. And 50% of that I 
the future. sunelec/dmsolar, etc for parts/kits and local electrician to 
permit, install is now under $2k/kw in most places. 
 200 + mile range EV's have enough surplus that even 50% discharged handles 
most owners needs, using the top 50% for home, office or micro or grid/V2G. 
When the EV owner needs more they just tell the EV/grid to have it full.
  Fact is every say block of homes close together with just 
small, short powerlines and insulated heat pipes sharing clean power and backup 
costs can supply 50-75% less cost than a utility can. Even a utility using wind 
and solar because of all the utility costs microgrids to less doesn't have. 
  Such a group could pool their trash, yard wastes, etc 
to make fuels, recycle for cash, etc. Sharing 
vehicles including boats, etc could cut their costs 50-75% too if insurance 
costs don't eat it up. Other tech like solar CSP 
making power and heat with a biomass, etc back up burner and heat storage, low 
cost 50 yr life wind generators, plastics to oil , etc machines are even more 
cost effective when mass produced. With EV 
capabilities, larger kwhr packs with V2G coming is going to really change 
power, fuels, FF's from big corporations to local suppliers, jobs with the 
consumers pocketing the savings. Since many 
utilities are  now charging $25/mo and up and/or over $.15/kwhr rates going off 
grid gets too good to pass up.   And soon most all 
will be as utilities/FF raises their prices and simple clean power/ fuel 
machines, devices, EV's, batteries  drop in cost, are mass produced like PV 
solar is.  BTW congress has a bill coming up to 
allow companies to build 500 'old looking' cars/yr without big auto 
regulations.  Think of the innovative EV's that could be made?  
   Jerry Dycus

   From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 7:52 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Light-weight 100W PV roof panel for 48V e-carts> ?Is it 
worth it?
   
On 22 Sep 2015 at 19:35, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> Yes, but a grid-tied solar system does not need a "dump battery" so that
> is a 100% wasted investment.  Just charge from the net-metereed solar
> system as is.

Barring an unlikely major change in America's political system that vastly 
reduces the influence of money on laws, grid tie is going to be effectively 
gone in a few years.  The utilities despise it, and will price it out of 
existence.

You may be lucky enough to be grandfathered for a while -- or maybe not.  
Most of us won't have that nearly-infinite, nearly-free battery that you 
have right now.  

We'd better be making other plans.

I'm sure there are huge practical barriers, but wouldn't it be great to 
develop democratically-controlled local or even regional consortia of RE 
users who pool their resources to build large storage facilities, and 
intertie their systems that way?  

While we're at it why not make them vehicle-sharing programs, too? You drive 
a small EV to work every day, but if you need an ICE van for the weekend, 
you can trade for a modest fee.

I know, now I'M the dreamer.  :-\

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVs Here, There and Everywhere

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Mike and All, I see it differently as new EV's 
are a source of lowcost quality EV parts, batteries especially. 
And most of the EV conversions one can update with lithium getting a  100 mile 
+ range EV at low cost one can fix themselves. And as 
controllers get hacked motors, controllers and chargers become cheap.   
  And we can make some EV's with those parts that can really shine or you 
can't get like EV pickups.  Put a Leaf pack in a Karman Ghia EV 
and doing it yourself you have a 240 mile EV for $10k.  For 
more money an extremely fast one.  Or one in an older Mini 
Pickup EV macked out give cool, class, range and a practical pickup.
  Now there is a possibility of a 300 mile range 64Vette all composite 
clone at a reasonable price.   All because of this great new 
parts source production EV's are.
   Jerry Dycus  
   
   From: Mike Nickerson via EV 
 To: Cor van de Water ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 9:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Re: [SPAM?] Re: EVs Here, There and Everywhere
   
I put on an Alternative Vehicle show at my employer each year.  At first, it 
was all conversions.  In the last couple years, it has become about 1/3 
conversions and 2/3 production EVs.  Some of the engineers have specifically 
commented that they would like to see more conversions.  That is hard when they 
are being taken out of service or moving out of the valley and few people are 
building new ones.

Mike



  
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Re: [EVDL] Good data or bad? How do you know? Or is it the interpretation?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi David and All,

 While a good BMS could be nice, their quality, price 
at this stage leaves a lot to be desired.  
 What makes quality lithium, Volt modules in my case, 
possible to not need a cell BMS it seems is their tight specs.   And BMS 
introduce failure points themselves.

  One can avoid most of the problems simply by 
controlling charging, discharge to safe levels like 10% and 95% once they are 
all balanced. Since my cells are all within 1/100th of a volt 4 yrs old and 
sitting for a yr+,  I'm betting they are balanced and will stay that way with a 
little care..

   Done with a Lightobject wthr meter that turns off 
the charger and off the controller if too low built in, to monitoring charge 
state, voltage, amps, etc too.

Add to that multiple Lee Hart Batt Bridges  and 
maybe Lee's diode array he recently mentioned.  Though I might go the meter 
route Batt bridge to detect much smaller cell offsets.  I'd like even .25vdc 
change be noted so any problem that is just starting to develop can be caught 
early..

 And regularly, say 1/month once  taking the pack  
down to see which cell goes first, then check voltage of all and balance if 
needed.   MPJA electronics has an interesting  8 cell voltage monitor, alarm 
meter designed for E Bikes, model planes, drones would work well for this?
 
   At the present this seems to me to be the best, 
safest, lowest cost lithium battery system for someone comfortable around EV's, 
electricity at $220/kwhr system cost.  It would be $300-350kwhr with many of 
the present good BMS out there.  I can't afford that if not needed.  And it 
doesn't seem needed for me.
  
 Jerry Dycus From: EVDL 
Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 5:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good data or bad? How do you know? Or is it the 
interpretation?
   
I find these chatty video presentations annoying. I'd rather read.  But I 
sat through this one, and got a few bits of useful info out of it.

1. You need a BMS that properly prevents over-discharge.  Hardy murdered six 
2000-cycle Headway LiFePO4 cells in 226 cycles (~11% of rated life) because 
his test gear didn't properly shut down the entire load (including its own) 
when the first cell dropped below 2 volts. 

2. A simple standalone shunt regulator board might be no better, or even 
worse, than no BMS at all.  This is especially likely to be the case if 
you're cycling your cells in open air in your house or garage, where they're 
all the same temperature; instead of in an EV's battery, where they aren't.

3. It's probably not a great idea to go on a trip and leave your battery 
test jig running unsupervised for days or weeks.

4. I see why they call this EVTV.  It's a lot like television, and not at 
all like peer-reviewed publications.  



David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] recharging/testing a LiFePO4 hi capacity cell

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Fred and All,You are not alone as many comment how bad 
the manuals are. But there is a video under JLD404 EVTV that explains it they 
make a kit with. It has 2 programmable relay drives to turn on, off 
loads, chargers, etc.    Jerry Dycus     From: fred via 
EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] recharging/testing a LiFePO4 hi capacity cell
   

I've forgotten so much from my original EV research and other related 
activities, that I had not considered the simplicity of a stand-alone meter in 
the circuit. The link provided presented a programmable meter for a pretty 
reasonable price. Correct me if I'm wrong in this supposition: programmable so 
it will interrupt the circuit when certain parameters are met? I downloaded and 
attempted to read the manual for the meter and was overwhelmed with the 
complexity of the device.
I have a much simpler device in my velomobile that monitors my 12v battery 
consumption for the lights and accessories. It begins to register all the 
important parameters when connected and forgets them when disconnected. I've 
found a number of devices of similar construction with higher capacities than I 
need, so I won't burn it out, but it's not programmable. It also has a built-in 
shunt, so the external device would not be needed. (thanks M.R.)

Part of my original unclear message was aimed at how would I be able to charge 
these cells, but I can see now that a meter external to the r/c charger will 
provide the data while the r/c charger will give me the current and monitoring 
that I need. It's not like the charger bases the duration on amp-hours pumped 
back into the battery, so sequencing it two or three times won't cause an 
overcharge if left unattended at just the wrong moment, while the external 
meter can give me the total at the end.
I'm not one to shy away from high tech stuff like the programmable meter, but 
it seems unwarranted in this case, as I already have sufficient complexity in 
the r/c charger. Whatcha think?




Original Message: 7
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 14:41:55 + (UTC)
From: jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] recharging/testing a LiFePO4 hi capacity cell

Hi Fred and All,
Rig one up with a Lightobject wthr? meter.? I'm going to use one to control my 
Volt module's charging, monitoring, etc.?
They have a wide selection online at very reasonable costs.
Jerry Dycus

  
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[EVDL] NEV/Golfcart EV numbers needed, low cost GC batts

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi All,   Anyone know where to find the data on US NEV, golfcart, etc low 
speed EV's on the road?  Off the road?John V at  GCR reports wants them for an 
article asked me.On  GC battery deals lately I've found good prices at most car 
parts store chains where you can ask your own price.On brands I've found 
Deka/EastPenn  or Johnson Controls that makes house brands like Duralast.I 
generally buy GC at $70 or so for 60lb ones at AutoZone, Discount Auto, etc and 
$80 for the 70lb DC 12vdc ones with cores.
   Jerry Dycus
  
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Re: [EVDL] GC batteries vs lithium

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Willy, Gail and All,  The Citi-Car is a high current EV that 240 
amps from the battery just isn't going to get it.  It takes 125 amps just going 
down the road steady as only 48vdc nom.     The spikes from the contact 
controller will take their toll.  One would need 800 amp peak rating on 
the batteries with an E controller of at least 600amp peak for flat areas and 
1,000amps in hilly areas.  I'd stick with lead for one more cycle in 
his case and when those die, lithium especially used will be lower cost then.   
  While this can take some money, it would make a nice EV.  As the 
bodies die from the sun making a new more aero one with lithium batteries would 
be even nicer, go faster, farther.   I volunteered to make new 
composite stock shaped front ones as a tribute to Bob Rice and the C-Car list 
had 8 people ready to buy at cost to get it started.  But was denied 
the promised use of the only perfect front piece for the mold so because of 
him, C-cars will  die off sadly without replacements as unlikely anyone else 
will make them..   Jerry Dycus
   From: Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] GC batteries
   
On 05/29/2015 06:56 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
 where they can be purchased for under $90.00.  Please offer opinions, 
 but not to upgrade to lithium.  That would be overkill for a C-Car.  I
Well...

I believe lithium is now about twice the price of lead for similar 
energy storage capacity.  That's a WAG but think I've seen Leaf and Volt 
modules around that price.  The lithium should last about 5 times as 
long.  Lithium has far less maintenance than lead.  Lithium gives you a 
larger fraction of stored energy, ~80% vs ~50%.

I think that makes lithium FAR cheaper than lead.

Is the C-Car 48v?  You'd be looking at ~$800 worth of lead? Somebody 
estimate how much Leaf battery that you buy you.

Answering my own question:
http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashopctrl=producttask=showcid=3name=nissan-leaf-battery-module-model-2012-newItemid=605
Six of those in series would give you about 3kwh and about 48vdc and 
cost less than $800 before shipping.  That's only a ~50 pound battery so 
you would really want to put 2-4 sets of those in a golf cart type 
vehicle.  But, a single set would supply 240a which should be plenty for 
a golf cart.





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Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Arak and All,   Well you did say that since EV's didn't 
fit 30% of the population needs it wasn't good on an EV list kind of should 
expect blowback.   EV's to sell millions only needs 10% of the 
market range isn't the problem.    The problem is lack of choices, 
lack of salespeople to sell what there is, advertising by those selling them.   
 And their lack of RE plug, mounting points so any EV can have 
unlimited range.   Or for Alum/Zinc/air RE giving 1,000 mile range. 
These RE's are proven, viable solution big auto won't use is why EV's are 
moving slow.    But you have other solutions like a used Volt or 
something you could do easily, get a Karman Ghia and convert to a Volt or other 
15kw+ pack should get an easy 120 mile range for around $10k.  On lead they 
have used just 100wthr/mile.   Or make a BrubakerBox type Van on a 
VW chassis.On living near work you take 400+ hrs or 10 work 
weeks just going to, coming from work plus transport costs so he had a valid 
point even if you can't do anything about it.   
 Jerry Dycus
   From: Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:35 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? 
It's the battery.
   
wow, so I see, your answer for the general public is to live where EV's will 
work? That's very draconic of you, and presumptive. I live where I live because 
I must.
 
This is the reason many people drop out of the EV interest, obtuse requirements 
and limitations. 
 
If you are trying to save the planet, by scrunching all people to less than 
30mi from work? That's not a sustainable goal(for many reasons). But of course, 
everyone living more than 30 isn't either. The real answer is limiting world 
population's to less than 5billion and we know that won't fly either.
 
Seriously, I checked with BMW, the price is $46k. The range is 70-80miles. The 
price is way too high and range too short to suit my need. 
 
Anyway, I'm back to dropping out until a more amenable world of ideas prevails. 
Point done. I leave the floor.
 





Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG )
 
 Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:14:18 -0400
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? 
 It's the battery.
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 I would argue that you're living or working in the wrong place. 42 miles 
 each way is a waste of your time and of gasoline or electricity.
 
 --Rick
 
 On 05/19/2015 01:05 PM, Arak Leatham via EV wrote:
  I admit I'm not sure how that plays out for everyone.
 
  I had the decision myself recently, I drive 42 miles each way. I had
  to balance out a moderate credit score and a super tight budget, and
  monthly costs. And I don't want or have the ability to charge at my
  work location. (unless it were flow batteries and as easy as petrol,
  5min ok, 10min not so much)
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Re: [EVDL] Low cost solar, virtual power plant

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Cor and All,  Fact is as much as I like SC 
leasing is very expensive compared to owning.  SC makes almost ALL the money 
though makes clean power which isn't bad. But the low cost high 
profit way owning is far better with paybacks in many places under 3, even 2 
yrs or places like Hawaii, 1 yr. How is cutting out all the 
parasites by buying the parts, kits from places like sunelec/dmsolar and having 
a local electrician to permit, install or do your own.  This comes under 
$2k/kw. No reason to pay more.    Next don't put it on the house 
roof unless the only choice. Much better to make a porch, carport, patio, 
awnings, shed, etc added value while avoiding huge engineering fees and making 
it easier to clean, maintain and install.   Done right the added 
value of say a carport or shed and solar system  could increase the home's 
value several x's cost making it very profitable from day 1.   As 
for Tesla's battery it can make a profit in places like Cal Time of Day 
pricing, other higher rate areas, but really too costly.   It needs to be under 
$200/kwhr and soon as Tesla/SC makes the market, many other stationary battery 
types under that  price, many with unlimited life, will pop up.  
Sadly most utilities don't understand how DG, home solar can work with them to 
lower their cost supplying near pollution free power.  US utilities are going 
to keep shrinking, they have for yrs, and need to plan on generating a lot 
less, transporting others power to make profit or they will go bankrupt as few 
will keep paying more for polluting power when the solution is a phone call 
away.  Not just producing your home's energy needs but freeing one 
from ever higher transport fuel costs with EV's as part of the system lowers 
energy costs 50-75% with little pollution, is a hard to beat energy future. 
   Jerry Dycus 
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Re: [EVDL] EV Boat

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi George and All,    That is a lot of boat drag to either go fast or 
far.   Just not a great choice for solar power.   Next since it can 
only go max 5mph on E and few miles depending on your battery pack hard to 
justify it.  And no need of expensive controllers, E cycle motors as 2 speeds 
would be fine.    No detail on the prop, which needs to be as large as 
possible turning slow rpm for most eff.     What kind of outboards, 
inboards, KWHR and what it does now on them in speed, range.    Not 
likely to ever be more than a few mile range at low speed on electricity. But 
driven slow like 4mph with more panels, only 1.5hp of solar now.    
Answer these and we can go from there.    Doing EV boats one needs to 
start with a sailboat, mono, cat or tri hulls with much lower drag.    
A real canal/narrowboat would be great.
'eCycle electric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced alkaline 
fuel cells, thin/flexible PV modules'These are needlessly expensive 
or just not viable at all.
 Jerry Dycus
         
   From: George McNeir via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:06 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] EV Boat
   
I have just joined and subscribe to EVDL with the idea that there are 
likeminded folks interested in large EV boat design and building. The MOG is 
not a commercial enterprise at this time but may be key to the creation of 
such. Everything designed and implemented over the past 25 years is described 
on the site given below and in the videos and blog that are also given below.

Primarily I ask for any dialog that would help in furthering the progress made 
to date. In effect, those with knowledge of the Navitas NPS600 motor 
controller, eCycle electric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced 
alkaline fuel cells, thin/flexible PV modules, internal grid power distribution 
DC networks and anything else that may be contemplated for such a craft is 
welcome.

In its present form, the totally solar electric (drive and appliance) powered 
boat is very functional. Considerations in decreasing onboard use of power as 
well as better use of power now created and stored is paramount in continuing 
further development.

To date, all of the boat design  build has been funded through my own personal 
funds as a hobby. Below are the background data to which I referred.

Thank you in advance for your deliberation and comments. George


VIDEOS    Moving    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI2nnN5892Afeature=youtu.be

        Beached  https://youtu.be/h92dWykE_Xo

        Tour          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRGKbayI2yI

SITE        http://www.mogcanalboat.com

BLOG    http://www.mognavy.blogspot.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Paul and All,    Since Bill  has more experience 
successfully getting the most power with lithium batteries of more types than 
most anyone else in the world for decades now, he is the source from his 
experience.   And thanks Bill, I hadn't known it was that low.  
I'd thought it was more like 110F at least.  Many parking lots here in Fla are 
50F+ above that.
    
    Jerry Dycus
   From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 2:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
   
You gave no source.

So one is better than none.

I've never heard or seen any paper that claims 104F will affect performance.




 From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 1:13 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
 

The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally 
to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is 
limited because the electrolyte boils just 
slightly above that temperature. Same type of 
electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit.

        The cell containment vessel can make a 
big difference in this temperature limit, 
however. Cylindrical cells can often hold 
significant pressure while prismatic and pouch 
cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. 
Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure 
of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you 
can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) 
would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is 
correct) without damage. They weren't rated 
that high, but they could withstand that 
temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius  (140 F).

        Keep in mind that the cells will age 
much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. 
They perform better, however, and you don't hold 
them that hot for very long. You must choose the 
compromise between total life-span and 
performance for the specific application, which 
is typical for most things in life.

        I'm not sure where you are getting your 
information. Better check more than one source.

Bill D.

At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote:
Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient 
temperatures should make anyone feel confident 
about a cell.  LFP for instance, starts to have 
serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully 
charged.  That is certainly ambient here in 
North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed 
up with significant amperage scooting about. I 
must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind 
here.  I simply want to point out a better way 
to go. That is to get better information for 
all.  And better testing with in the 
industry.  ENERDEL just popped up on my radar 
is all.  They have an website that is light on 
good information and I waded in.  I am happy to 
see that behind the curtain they may have more 
on the ball. I have been scanning the course 
work you provided to me, and it is very 
nice.  When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around 
page 279) I can see they clearly understand the 
reactivity of the positive electrode at very 
high SOC and how temperature makes that much 
worse for the electrolyte.  They clearly have 
good information to work with and probably are 
engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin 
off Novonix to get good testing done.  I am duly 
impressed. I still have not figured out what 
chemistry they have chosen.  From what I have 
seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in 
general terms regarding their own cells.  If 
they are using some inferior chemistry and 
electrolyte package it is clearly not because 
they don't know better, so I bet they are 
OK.  Provisional blessing on them until I am 
better educated. Thanks for taking the time to 
address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 
at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:  I doubt that 
EnerDel and its customers have overlooked 
anything as basic  as performance and life at 
ambient temperatures. It appears to me that  
Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by 
application and then  misinterpreting the 
presented data.  But whatever.  They have 
millions of  cells in the field and no 
complaints of which I am aware.   
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 18 wing-motor NASA electric aircraft concept r:200mi

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Peter and All,   While interesting it has 
a fatal flaw as small props are far less eff than say 6 larger ones in 
thrust/kw. Large props and low rpms is the key to range.   
In an EV such large unneeded losses just don't fly as kills range, increases 
weight/battery/cost.  Next the effect on the wing would be 
far better done with blown lift from wing slots, etc giving a smooth, more 
powerful  effect  on lift, control on much less power.    Same 
with all the drones now where 2 counter rotating blades on the same shaft of 
the vehicle dia would over double it's range or lift/kw, kwhr of battery.   
  So yes it is wacky.  KIS,    
Jerry Dycus   
   From: Peter C. Thompson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 18 wing-motor NASA electric aircraft concept r:200mi
   
On 3/22/15 9:42 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
 brucedp5 via EV wrote:
 http://www.itproportal.com/2015/03/17/nasa-testing-electric-aircraft-wacky-design-concept/
  

 NASA testing an all electric aircraft with wacky design concept

 Why does the author feel the need to put wacky in the title? The 
 wing in question looks very normal, and the range of 200 miles in fact 
 quite reasonable for an early test model.

Because it is different, and that scares him.

Seriously, though, this is a very smart idea. You can pitch the props 
different for the different parts of the wing, you can even have some of 
the motors turn off entirely and have the prop feather away.  Being able 
to use different power levels means the wings will be MUCH more 
difficult to stall.

This idea has been thoroughly discussed on some of the airplane forums I 
read, and the consensus is that if they can work out the power problem 
(same problem we face with EVs), then this will work out really well.

Cheers, Peter


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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Peri and All,  With some accessories you can cut that way down by a 
transport system approach.
  I need most of what you say  my solution is a 2-4 seat EV with 60-120 
mile range that tows a convertible lightweight aero trailer making it into a 
van, camper, flatbed, pickup.
  Just add a clean fuel RE rounds it out for those times EV range, fast 
charging won't do.
  A vehicle is only wasteful if one doesn't use it's capacity.  By 
doing things that make it more flexible saves much.   All my very lightweight 
EV's have trailer hitches and my EV trike pickup does much what I need with 
only 40 mile range.   It's trailer, a wood/epoxy  flat bed has been 
used from it to a pickup, camper, etc by putting on various shells, sides, etc. 
   Jerry Dycus 
   From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 6:41 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options
   
Ok, we've seen both sides of the wasteful range question.  Let me pose 
this: how close to saturation are we for the market of people who can 
afford and are willing to have an additional car just so they can buy a 
short range (50+ miles) for local driving.

That is, how many people are left who will buy a short range EV with the 
justification they also have an ICE car for longer distances?

Let me be sarcastic: under the ideal world I'd have about 10 vehicles: 
my bicycle, maybe an e-bike, a small 1 person EV, a small 2 person EV, a 
4 door sedan EV, a 4 door sedan ICE, a pickup truck, a van.  Lost count, 
is that 10?  Then, I'd use each vehicle most efficiently.

Peri

  
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[EVDL] EV range needs, future best options

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    EV range is interesting as so many new factors.  While long range is 
nice for those that actually need 100+ miles/day, most just don't need over 120 
miles I see as a sweet spot for most.    For many just a 60 mile range EV 
can work as many in Fla seniors only use Golfcarts and NEV's now as their only 
transport.    And for the few times more is needed a RE using cleaner fuels 
or Alum/Zinc-air primary batteries are already proven to give 1,000 mile range 
just EV builders refuse to put in the brackets, plug or space for them like a 
trailer hitch mount. We really need to get these alum/Zinc air RE 
available as already proven, just need a market to sell them.  Between EV's and 
home, building  markets if available would be a killer app.    As fairly 
light 50lb modules could be sold near anywhere including gas stations just 
exchanging the spent one with a reformed one.    This is complicated as EV 
batteries shrink in weight, space both which have been improved 30% in the last 
few yrs and likely to double range/lb of battery  in 3-5 yrs.Next 
building eff EV's gliders by cutting weight by 50% with better aero can cut 
battery weight, cost/100 miles by 50% even with present EV lithium batteries.   
 The GM Ultralite, Toyota 1/x, Solectria Sunrise, Visio.M,  and other 
composite body/chassis show the way.     Sadly the i3 weighs more than a 
same size steel car  from really bad design using an alum frame instead of just 
bolting everything to the CF body.  Since it has to pass crash tests the body 
has to be strong enough to carry the other loads anyway. So half the 
weight, drag EV's using half the weight EV batteries with 2x's the capacity  
even 200 mile range would be low cost, practical. And in 5 yrs likely 
to be in production as by then oil will likely be $5/gal but EV's need cost no 
more than a gas car because of these but only 20% to run.   
    Jerry Dycus
  
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[EVDL] EV range needs, future best options

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    EV range is interesting as so many new factors.  While long range is 
nice for those that actually need 100+ miles/day, most just don't need over 120 
miles I see as a sweet spot for most.    For many just a 60 mile range EV 
can work as many in Fla seniors only use Golfcarts and NEV's now as their only 
transport.    And for the few times more is needed a RE using cleaner fuels 
or Alum/Zinc-air primary batteries are already proven to give 1,000 mile range 
just EV builders refuse to put in the brackets, plug or space for them like a 
trailer hitch mount. We really need to get these alum/Zinc air RE 
available as already proven, just need a market to sell them.  Between EV's and 
home, building  markets if available would be a killer app.    As fairly 
light 50lb modules could be sold near anywhere including gas stations just 
exchanging the spent one with a reformed one.    This is complicated as EV 
batteries shrink in weight, space both which have been improved 30% in the last 
few yrs and likely to double range/lb of battery  in 3-5 yrs.Next 
building eff EV's gliders by cutting weight by 50% with better aero can cut 
battery weight, cost/100 miles by 50% even with present EV lithium batteries.   
 The GM Ultralite, Toyota 1/x, Solectria Sunrise, Visio.M,  and other 
composite body/chassis show the way.     Sadly the i3 weighs more than a 
same size steel car  from really bad design using an alum frame instead of just 
bolting everything to the CF body.  Since it has to pass crash tests the body 
has to be strong enough to carry the other loads anyway. So half the 
weight, drag EV's using half the weight EV batteries with 2x's the capacity  
even 200 mile range would be low cost, practical. And in 5 yrs likely 
to be in production as by then oil will likely be $5/gal but EV's need cost no 
more than a gas car because of these but only 20% to run.   
    Jerry Dycus
  
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Re: [EVDL] Help! - Double motor failure!

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Dan and All, Likely overloading it by not enough gearing without any 
other details is the best guess.  Also you need to run in new brushes for an hr 
or so no load on 12vdc or what happened could happen.I'm doing that now with my 
D+D ES31,the big brother to yours getting my Ewoody going.You should NOT use FW 
except at high rpm and lower loading.I didn't know the 7450 had FW in it.  
Likely just a ramp setting for an external one.I use FW every day though with a 
contactor controller works great except kills torque at starting, lower 
rpm's.And gives more than a little with 50% high speed doable. But not needed 
or wanted in your app.  Jerry Dycus
   From: Dan Baker via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 9:36 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Help! - Double motor failure!
   
Hey folks

I'm hoping someone can help me with my EV.  My snowpig (
http://www.evalbum.com/4544 ) has suffered two drive motor failures in the
past two weeks!  I purchased a DD 170-04-01 8hp torque motor two years ago
to beef up my cart that I use to clear our dirt road for myself and
our neighbors.  It had ran flawlessly till now. My cart has been the first
line of defense in keeping our road passable and this winter has been
brutal but not much different than the others we have had.  A couple weeks
ago I noted some smell from the motor and then a sudden loss in power.
Upon dis assembly, I found heat damage, notably 2 of the brush springs had
melted.  No idea if the brush springs were the cause of the heat or the
victims of it.  All my connections were tight and no heat damage could be
found at the batteries, controller or motor terminals.  So I called Mike
and Jeff at DD up, they were very helpful and I ordered a replacement,
which is terribly expensive by the time this 61lb brute gets to my door
with shipping.  I verified my alltrax 7245 controller's programming and
found that the turbo option was set, a field weakening option that gets a
small increase in speed.  My snowpig rarely sees full throttle as it
trundles along clearing snow, the front MARS ME-1003 doing most of the work
running the blower. I verified all the rest of the options as per Mike's
instructions and put the cart back together.
Well I had to travel for work this week and left the snowpig for my father
to operate.  We had two storms, the first one he had no issue but on the
second it failed again!  Upon inspecting I found the resting pack voltage
was 50 volts in -6c weather (he had to abandon it on the side of the
road).  Upon dissection of the second motor I found one brush completely
torn from the holder, it's metal casing in shards and lots of heat damage
again!

Was the second motor a dud?  What else could be the cause? I'm not looking
for blame, just trying to keep it from happening again.  I have to once
again go away next week and we will likely have yet another dump of snow.
I'm going to try and make a motor of the two but I'm dismayed this may
happen again ;-(  If I get a motor functioning again, I'm going to hook a
laptop to the AXE controller.  and log a run but there isn't a lot of snow
left to clear as it has become rock hard with freezing rain so the blower
and cart won't see much load.

Any help or ideas around keeping my pig running and our road passable would
be much appreciated!

Thank you
Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Solar EV Boats (was Practical solar EV's)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Bob and All, From: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu
 To: jerry freedomev freedo...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 8:59 AM
 Subject: Solar EV Boats (was Practical solar EV's)
   
Here is a photo of my solar boat:
http://aprs.org/Energy/solar/boat/solar-boatx.jpg
-Nice for local putting a most boats do. Especially the shade in 
summer.  I notice you put a lot of weight forward that brings the transom up so 
it likely about level with the water helps cut drag, improve range, speed.

 Or put a full 2-3kw on it and connect it to your home powering it when not
 motoring would be useful, cool.  A new definition of powerboat!!    ;^)

Yes, the number of boats and mostly RV's just sitting in the sun 99% of the
year are a great place to put solar panels and backfeed the house that 99%
of the time.-- Not only that but some places don't make it easy, cheap, 
to install solar on a home, property and this can be a good work around saving 
'engineering', other legal costs.

  Though 4-5 mph for solar should be doable...

Mine above does 3.3 knots on both trolling motors on full speed.  Drops to
2.5 kts at HALF the power.- Your kind of hull keeps it that way so just 
enjoy the trip.  It's being on the water that is the point usually.    
One of the 18'+ sailing catamaran hulls with the same set up would do 6-8mph if 
you kept it light.  To go fast with EV drive your hulls need to be 8x's longer 
than wide at the waterline.  You'll find most ships are for the same reason.
    Or a simple pointed both ends box from, plywood/epoxy  works well 
giving more weight capacity.    A good solar boat is hard to beat 
especially connected to the home, grid when not being a boat.   
 Jerry Dycus
    

But now I am humbled by looking at your amazing home-built below!  I never
thought of the autopilot!  What a great idea.  Because that is all I ever
do, is just take a loop around the creek!  Bob, WB4APR

  My Firefly's motors (http://www.evalbum.com/3432) are only about 800
 watts total power from my crude homemade panel is 140 watts.  This gives
 me roughly a 4.:1 ratio of charge to drive during daylight i.e. it take 4
 hours of sunlight to allow travel for 1 hour.  While that only means 3-4
 miles of travel, it's more than enough to travel to the end of the lake
 and back.  The boat was purpose built to fish, cruise and dive off on a
 small lake so big power or speed wasn't considered but it is still
 practical.  Obviously more speed requires more power and the panel size
 and weight becomes an issue.  I have a larger faster electric boat I plan
 to convert to solar some day (
http://www.evalbum.com/4767) but I expect the charge ratio to be  30:1 if
the boat could maintain full throttle for 1 hour, but likely closer to 10:1
for normal cruising speeds.

Dan Baker

http://www.evalbum.com/3432
http://www.evalbum.com/4767
http://www.evalbum.com/4544
http://www.evalbum.com/4451


  
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Re: [EVDL] What is needed to build a successful practical solar vehicle.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Dale and All,    With panels so cheap why not 
use enough to cruise at least 6mph. sunelec , others have them $.50-.80/wt. 
    Or put a full 2-3kw on it and connect it to your home powering it 
when not motoring would be useful, cool.  A new definition of powerboat!!    
;^) I'm planning on 1 kw  of PV to run my 34' trimaran though 
mostly to run it's  A/C in Fla, cooking pans, light oven, heated bed/seats and 
everything else. And of course my EV drive but since it is a 
sailboat it's won't be  used that much.  Though 4-5 mph for solar should be 
doable as so easily driven on a ADC k91 from a Crown forklift. 
Not much reason to have an e controller as simple switching works well. Unless 
running a PM motor anchored in a current , sailing speed of 3mph or so could 
recharge the batteries with a good size flat pitched prop.    
Also experiment with trim like moving weight forward or make transom extensions 
to bring the water back together more gently can help with wthr/mile if needed.
 Jerry Dycus From: Dan 
Baker via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 5:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is needed to build a successful  practical solar 
vehicle.
   
Well the the ratio of panel size to output power for the vehicle does vary
upon speed and usage.  As a builder of a an on-board solar powered boat I
have had great success with it - 4 years worth :-)  My Firefly's motors (
http://www.evalbum.com/3432) are only about 800 watts total power from my
crude homemade panel is 140 watts.  This gives me roughly a 4.:1 ratio of
charge to drive during daylight i.e. it take 4 hours of sunlight to allow
travel for 1 hour.  While that only means 3-4 miles of travel, it's more
than enough to travel to the end of the lake and back.  The boat was
purpose built to fish, cruise and dive off on a small lake so big power or
speed wasn't considered but it is still practical.  Obviously more speed
requires more power and the panel size and weight becomes an issue.  I have
a larger faster electric boat I plan to convert to solar some day (
http://www.evalbum.com/4767) but I expect the charge ratio to be  30:1 if
the boat could maintain full throttle for 1 hour, but likely closer to 10:1
for normal cruising speeds.

Dan Baker

http://www.evalbum.com/3432
http://www.evalbum.com/4767
http://www.evalbum.com/4544
http://www.evalbum.com/4451


On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Lawrence,

 For practicalities sake, I think 77ft^2 (7m^2) is a hard sell for getting
 much travel done.  Just roughing it out, (and a person can take some
 exception with any of these) a meter squared is good for maybe 1000W of
 incoming sun.  For maybe 8 hours a sunny day and less over a year - call it
 6 hours (it was far less than that here in NC this summer).  You can get
 more than 20% efficiency from the panels if they are mounted correctly on a
 roof.  On a car I think you need to cut that in half or more.

 So that 6kWh (10%) = 600Watt Hours.  On a daily basis for a pretty big car
 compared to what I use with no panels.

 My daily commute in a pedal assist EV uses about 2kWh.  For a round trip of
 50 miles.

 It just would not do for me.  My home mounted 5.6KW system is helping much
 more.

 Mike




 On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 wrote:

  Not going to happen.  The 11 x 7 patch on the roof of the solar vehicle
  stays.  I'm not accepting any it can't be done statementsnext.
  Lawrence Rhodes...I don't care how ugly.  I'm making a copy of Stella.
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 --
 To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
 Thomas A. Edison
 http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 *Warren Buffet*

 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
 Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 (919) 513-0418 Desk

 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] EV/Hybrid-to-home emergency power

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Robert and All,  I've found the monthly 
utility fee covers the battery, generator cost to go offgrid in most places.  
Some charge $50/month just to stay ongrid.       As the generator 
is set up for heat production cogen saves even more.  Unless it 
has a 20 mile battery range the hybrid are going to be running their motor 
ineff compared to a dedicated generator, battery.  Now real 
EV's this works best as a lot more capacity to work with.    I 
ran my home for 3 days from my lightweight EV's with power coming back on just 
as I was going to have to recharge them somewhere else.   And 
you should push lowering the home load first, especially a 5kw water heater, is 
 just not bright.   
 Jerry Dycus From: Robert 
Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:48 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EV/Hybrid-to-home emergency power
   
Am preparing a talk for this weekend about the unbelievable economics of
solar power where I always stress the economics all comes from the absence
of any BATTERY storage expense and the 95% efficiency of grid-tie and
annual storage in the grid.



But after several slides bashing how un-economical batteries are compared
to  grid-tie, I also then shift over to the HUGE free battery that comes in
your hybrid or EV.  Now you have a whole-house sized battery and it is
off-the-shelf compatible with the high voltages of grid-tie solar!  A
perfect marriage.



And now finally some high voltage input ISLAND inverters are starting to
come available for this VERY obvious home-power market.  Here are some kits
for emergency power from Prius-to-home in the 2 to 5 kVA class. (You’d need
the 5 KVA to run the electric water heater)…

http://www.converdant.biz/plug-out/



Just wondering if anyone has one of these.  They claim to have eliminated
the gournd-loop issue they had in early models.



I am not at all interested in 48v or such off-grid inverters or UPS
conversions.  I want 200-500 VDC input and 240 VAC output because these
then are perfectly compatible BOTH with my solar system raw voltages AND
with the hybrid or EV.  This is the perfect Armagedeon backup system since
one will have the infinite supply of energy from the sun with the solar.
One would have the infinitie supply of transportation fuel (solar) with the
EV, and the whole-house storage is in the EV battery.  And as a side
benefit, you can DRIVE your battery and inverter over to help out anyone
else that needed some power for a while.



In long term outages  (or Armagedon) gasoline is the first thing to run out
of after all the bullets.  Solar, and EV’s  make one self-sufficient
forever (… to the life of the EV battery)…



AND has anyone hacked the HV quick-charge sockets on most EV’s that
connects directly to the battery?



Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Volt pack arrives

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Cor and All,    Thanks for that. Apparently my 
DVM is bad at that voltage range, only showing 45vdc vs the 58vdc they are. 
 If these are 45 amp modules wouldn't at 60vdc nom be 3kwhr 
packs instead of the 2 rated?   Or are they 30amphr?  I've looked for an hr and 
can't find out online though I remember seeing it. They are 
sitting at 3.8vdc/cell and within .01vdc so far. It was too cold to check them 
all.Though doesn't change much as I'll still use 4 packs in parallel.   
   While I could split the 1kw out of the 5kwhr pack, for now I think 
I'll just be happy with 60vdc nom. 
    My controller is a 72vdc nom Curtis 1209 and building 
the charger from scratch so the 17cell works best for me for now.   
 Jerry Dycus
 From: Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, February 2, 2015 9:42 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt pack arrives
   
Jerry,
The 4 parallel packs that you quote as nominal 48V are in fact 60V at 3.5V per 
cell and 17 in series.
The extra module of 8 could be split in 4 parallel 2-series pairs to increase 
the voltage of your
Total pack from 60 to 67V, but at 19 cells in series the top charging voltage 
then goes to
19 x 4.1V = 78V, I don't know if your charger and controller will be happy with 
that, or better to
Stay at the max 70V with the 17 series cells - depending on your existing 
component specs.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626         Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP  +31 87 784 1130         private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com



-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jerry freedomev via EV
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt pack arrives

 Hi Adam and All, Thanks for your part helping me get these as 
time I got into lithium light batteries to go with my lightweight EV's. 
   Yes I understand the current limits and a major reason for the e 
controller.  Though the first set up with have 4 in parallel at 48vdc nom 
likely too much amps available!!  I'll run lighter cables to limit  max amps 
too.    With just another 24vdc group I can go 2 strings of 120vdc 
nom.  Or another 5kwhr and do 156vdc nom pack might give me 150 mile range. 
   Looking at the bus bars, etc 120amp cont looks right.  It's good we 
didn't break up the pack.    I'll fuse each 48cell set though I 
make my own fuses.  Not hard if you understand them. On voltage 
I have your earlier post on it and seeing what others might have experienced.   
So anyone else have experience with Volt batteries?     
 I was thinking using the BMS cables getting a couple model airplane 7 
cell BMS'  IC's with meters that have a balancing function plugging them in say 
1/month to equalize. Mostly just relying on monitoring.   It 
has motivated me to get the Ewoody and FreedomEV going now I have batteries 
that will give it good range. The fact the weather is getting warmer helps as 
in Fla mid Feb to June is  building season .   Looks like my 
front suspension design, double A frame, is good so mostly a matter of getting 
stuff mounted, skin on and electrical.   By then my wthr 
meters, etc for battery charging will be in and I'll have a chance to put some 
cycles on them.      It's going to be strange having so much data 
to work with as until now it's just been volts, amps and AC charging wattmeter. 
 I just happy good wthr meters have dropped so much in price, Lightobject 404,  
with so many great features like charger turn off when 95% charged, fuel gauge, 
volts, amps, high/low alarms, etc. Thanks,  
   Jerry Dycus       From: 
Adam Chasen a...@chasen.name
 To: jerry freedomev freedo...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, February 2, 2015 12:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt pack arrives
  
Glad you are enjoying your cells! I have been using 4.1 as my top and 3.5 as my 
bottom voltage. The Volt battery module was not designed to provide more than 
120A current continuous based on the components found in the battery 
(specifically the relays in the head unit are rated for 120A continuous, but 
much higher surge). Or course hooking yours up in parallel multiplies that 
current by the number of packs you have.

I strongly encourage you to invest in some semiconductor fuses to protect the 
packs from one another when hooking up in a parallel scenario. Note: These 
fuses are likely to be incompatible with using a contactor style controller. 
The fuses are available

Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels for vehicles?

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Robert and All, Just 3 of those 
would power my tiny retirement home and lightweight EV's for 25 yrs for $500 in 
panels offgrid!  Since it is a 34' trimaran in Fla it's 
perfect as my main load, A/C, follows solar output near perfectly. And it has 
E- drive . One reason to finish 
the E woody and generator was to go down to see sunelec and these lams as 250 
miles away.   I don't mind building frames, junction boxes  at those prices.
    Though they are 72vdc nom.    I see 
prices have dropped again as they are offering full 3-10kw gridtie kits with UL 
panels for $1.3-$1/wt!  Just have a local electrician to permit, install. 
Payback most everywhere would be 2 yrs or 50% ROI/yr for 25 yrs!!   Where else 
are you going to make that interest?    EV's getting 
cheaper, better batteries now very low cost solar to power them.  It's what the 
Saudi's are so worried about they said 35 yrs ago would happen if oil prices 
got too high. They held the line on prices for 20 yrs until demand outstripped 
supply. Now with the tiny 1% surplus causing this price fiasco they have power 
again for a while, not longer than 2 yrs as the economy will recover because of 
lower oil prices.  One thing on installing solar, Don't do 
it on the roof unless no other choice. Instead make a carport, patio, lanai, 
shed, awnings, fence as Robert mentioned, etc makes it easier, cheaper to 
install and has added value too.
 Jerry Dycus
    
  From: Robert Bruninga via 
EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 2:17 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Solar Panels for vehicles?
   
The reason I mention these solar panels on the EV list is because these are
without frames. Maybe easier to mount on a truck?

http://sunelec.com/solar-panels/sun-435w-laminates-grade-b.html



Here are some 435 Watt solar panels (81” by 41”) that are only 39 cents a
watt compared to home solar panels down to about 55 cents a watt (were
$4/watt when I got my first ones 4 years ago.  That is a 10-to-1 reduction
in just 4 years.



Meaning they are only a fraction of an inch thick instead of having a frame
that is 1.5” thick.  So they could mount flat to a vehicle IF you had
almost 7 feet by 4 feet of flat surface.  Doubt they would be any good on
anything but a truck.  But the price is amazing.



I think they do not have a connection box, and hence the low price.  You
have to dig out the laminated contact strips and solder to them (and you
must include the three bypass diodes too).



P.S.  I do NOT lament the fact that I paid almost 6 times as much for
standard panels only 4 years ago, because the difference has already been
made up in 4 years of free electricity.



This is an important concept for solar.  It make no sense to wait.  At any
given day’s lowest prices, the future lower prices will be made up for by
all the free power  you get instead of waiting.  And already solar panels
are cheaper than windows of the same size, so they just cannot get much
cheaper…  And you stop burning fossil fuel the day you turn them on.



P.S.  From the same supplier in Miami, they even have panels as low as 24
cents a watt.  But these are the low efficiency ones, so you need about 2.6
times as much space for the same power (but at half the cost).  Only useful
if you have unbelievable roof space.



P.P.S.  One person suggested these last panels are not much more than the
cost of a FENCE.  And so his HOA prevents him from putting up any fence to
shield him from his a$$ of a neighbor, but the state does not allow an HOA
to block solar panels.  So this guy said he would gladly buy the panels
just to block his neighbor and the power would just be free on the top!



P.P.P.S.  Amazingly covering the curved roof of my prius cost $10/watt in
2008 almost 20 times as much.  But the only way to do that is with smaller
1’ square modules and these (non-home style) have not changed in price
hardly AT ALL in the same 7 years!  They still cost about $10/watt.
Meaning all the cost reductions in solar are simply due to volume
production and that, only for home and commercial sized panels.



Bob, WB4aPR
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Re: [EVDL] Volt pack arrives

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Adam and All, Thanks for your part helping me get these as 
time I got into lithium light batteries to go with my lightweight EV's. 
   Yes I understand the current limits and a major reason for the e 
controller.  Though the first set up with have 4 in parallel at 48vdc nom 
likely too much amps available!!  I'll run lighter cables to limit  max amps 
too.    With just another 24vdc group I can go 2 strings of 120vdc 
nom.  Or another 5kwhr and do 156vdc nom pack might give me 150 mile range. 
   Looking at the bus bars, etc 120amp cont looks right.  It's good we 
didn't break up the pack.    I'll fuse each 48cell set though I 
make my own fuses.  Not hard if you understand them. On voltage 
I have your earlier post on it and seeing what others might have experienced.   
So anyone else have experience with Volt batteries?     
 I was thinking using the BMS cables getting a couple model airplane 7 
cell BMS'  IC's with meters that have a balancing function plugging them in say 
1/month to equalize. Mostly just relying on monitoring.   It 
has motivated me to get the Ewoody and FreedomEV going now I have batteries 
that will give it good range. The fact the weather is getting warmer helps as 
in Fla mid Feb to June is  building season .   Looks like my 
front suspension design, double A frame, is good so mostly a matter of getting 
stuff mounted, skin on and electrical.   By then my wthr 
meters, etc for battery charging will be in and I'll have a chance to put some 
cycles on them.      It's going to be strange having so much data 
to work with as until now it's just been volts, amps and AC charging wattmeter. 
 I just happy good wthr meters have dropped so much in price, Lightobject 404,  
with so many great features like charger turn off when 95% charged, fuel gauge, 
volts, amps, high/low alarms, etc. Thanks,  
   Jerry Dycus       From: 
Adam Chasen a...@chasen.name
 To: jerry freedomev freedo...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, February 2, 2015 12:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt pack arrives
   
Glad you are enjoying your cells! I have been using 4.1 as my top and 3.5 as my 
bottom voltage. The Volt battery module was not designed to provide more than 
120A current continuous based on the components found in the battery 
(specifically the relays in the head unit are rated for 120A continuous, but 
much higher surge). Or course hooking yours up in parallel multiplies that 
current by the number of packs you have.

I strongly encourage you to invest in some semiconductor fuses to protect the 
packs from one another when hooking up in a parallel scenario. Note: These 
fuses are likely to be incompatible with using a contactor style controller. 
The fuses are available in various amperages on ebay (new old stock). In the 
case of a cell failure (cells usually fail short), one pack will have lower 
voltage. This will result in the other parallel packs dumping current into the 
failed pack's remaining good cells. This can cause a dangerous situation due to 
overvoltage and thermal runaway on the failed pack. I believe these fuses will 
provide some protection from this situation in addition to providing some 
protection to an electronic motor controller (they are actually designed to 
protect high power diodes and transistors from catastrophic failure).

Keep those tops on and any liquids away from them! You are correct in that they 
are very dangerous to work around. I strongly encourage using rubberized tools 
(not that it should be treated as the only safety measure).

Adam




  
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