[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
Cosmic 
> Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> nothing to do with enlightenment?>>>

It is the beginnings of a personality pathology that leads to 
enlightenment.   
THEN, the real fun begins, because at that point when you reach 
enlightenment you have to fight Balrogs.
http://tinyurl.com/sz7fg
 
Enjoy.

OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic 
> Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> nothing to do with enlightenment?
> 
> A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM movement. 
> Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the explanation given 
> by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of 
> flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing 
> stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality disorders 
> such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed by 
> observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or the TM 
> Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a natural, 
> normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self throughout 
> the three states of consciousness? Mark
>


The literature on dissoication (sp?) and EEG is inconsistent, but I've never 
seen or heard of 
a study on disociation that finds increased EEG inter-hemispheric coherence in 
people with 
that pathology. *Usually* there's no consistent EEG changes found. However, in 
a number 
of studies, there seems to be a situation where one hemisphere is dominant 
while the 
other is dysfunctional--generally the intellectual side is dominant while the 
emotional side 
is dysfunctional, which some researchers think explains the 'sense of 
"watching" while 
being uninvolved emotionally' that such people have.

People reporting CC from TM practice, on the other hand, show balanced brain 
activity.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
Cosmic 
> Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> nothing to do with enlightenment?
> 
> A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM 
movement. 
> Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the explanation 
given 
> by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of 
> flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing 
> stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality 
disorders 
> such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed by 
> observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or the 
TM 
> Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a natural, 
> normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self 
throughout 
> the three states of consciousness? Mark
>



The experience of witnessing is a perfectly normal part of growth of 
consciousness. The sense of seeing the body as from a distance means 
that the identification of oneself with the body is lessening, which 
is a good thing, because the truth of life is that the witness 
consciousness, whose nature is blissful and infinite, is only 
reflected by bodies depending on their purity (the more pure the 
nervous system, the greater the reflected consciousness).

Because TMers experience growth of awareness, they are less 
overwhelmed by activity and the environment -- this is why they begin 
to feel distanced, just witnesses to the activity. This is a sign of 
strength, not pathology.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[nablusos108]

 Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've spoken in detail to two psychiatrist friends who state in no  
> uncertain terms that TM has a high incidence of side effects, 
which  
> includes psychosis, exacerbation of personality disorders,  
> dissociative disorders and a host of other issues. One is involved 
in  
> the Spiritual Emergence Network and TMers are very common 
rescuees.  
> TM literature ignores the problem which further exacerbates the  
> problem which should also give you an idea of who much we should  
> trust their "research". From a yogic perspective TMers tend to  
> "store" hot energy in the head, which is kinda like having your PC 
in  
> a 120 degree room, it causes all sorts of problems. Unfortunately 
the  
> TM org provides no alternative or cure for these problems
> 
> It's been anecdotally reported here recently that a large number 
of  
> ex TM-teachers, living in Fairfield, have alcohol and/or other  
> substance abuse problems. In the absence of external verification 
of  
> their issues, many resort to self-medication through drugs or 
alcohol.
> 


Vaj, your neverending campaign against TM will not succeed. Give up. 
In any way of writing, you come across as a desperate fool.
You seem to be in a lowlife existence (to much pot perhaps ?) not 
deserving much attention. Nevertheless, lets hear what Benjamim 
Creme, the foremost exponent of Thesosophy today has to say about 
your "concerns".

Question.(1) Can Transcendental Meditation bring psycho-physiological 
problems at all, as reported by a number of meditators, or only when 
it is not properly practised? (2) Are these problems not linked to 
the practice? (3) What would be your advice to such people? (4) Is 
Transcendental Meditation a beneficial technique? (5) Would you 
recommend a shift from Transcendental Meditation to Transmission 
Meditation altogether, or can both be practised at different times?

Answer by Benjamin Creme. (1) Not if properly practised. (2) The 
problems are not linked to the practice. (3) Seek counsel of a 
practitioner. (4) Yes. (5) Transmission Meditation is more a service 
and so more beneficial to the world but both can be practised at 
different times. 

For more information, please see: http://www.shareintl.org 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[feste37]

You discount scientific research on TM, yet you expect us to take seriously the 
opinions of your "two psychiatric friends," who hardly sound like unbiased 
observers!  I have been around TM people all my adult life, and your 
comments do not square either with what I have experienced for myself  
through the practice of TM or what I have observed in others. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've spoken in detail to two psychiatrist friends who state in no  
> uncertain terms that TM has a high incidence of side effects, which  
> includes psychosis, exacerbation of personality disorders,  
> dissociative disorders and a host of other issues. One is involved in  
> the Spiritual Emergence Network and TMers are very common rescuees.  
> TM literature ignores the problem which further exacerbates the  
> problem which should also give you an idea of who much we should  
> trust their "research". From a yogic perspective TMers tend to  
> "store" hot energy in the head, which is kinda like having your PC in  
> a 120 degree room, it causes all sorts of problems. Unfortunately the  
> TM org provides no alternative or cure for these problems other than  
> heir extremely overpriced Ayurvedic services, medicines and  
> treatments (which often will not work anyways on this specific issue).
> 
> It's been anecdotally reported here recently that a large number of  
> ex TM-teachers, living in Fairfield, have alcohol and/or other  
> substance abuse problems. In the absence of external verification of  
> their issues, many resort to self-medication through drugs or alcohol.
> 
> If you know someone with this type of problem, you can find resources  
> here:
> 
> http://www.internetguides.com/se/resources/senciis.html
> 
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:18 AM, suziezuzie wrote:
> 
> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self
> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic
> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has
> > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> >
> > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM movement.
> > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the explanation  
> > given
> > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of
> > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing
> > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality disorders
> > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed by
> > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or the TM
> > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a natural,
> > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self throughout
> > the three states of consciousness? Mark
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie"  
> wrote:
> >
> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
> Cosmic 
> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > 
> > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM 
> movement. 
> > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the explanation 
> given 
> > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of 
> > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing 
> > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality 
> disorders 
> > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed by 
> > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or the 
> TM 
> > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a natural, 
> > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self 
> throughout 
> > the three states of consciousness? Mark
> >
> 
> 
> 
> The experience of witnessing is a perfectly normal part of growth of 
> consciousness. The sense of seeing the body as from a distance means 
> that the identification of oneself with the body is lessening, which 
> is a good thing, because the truth of life is that the witness 
> consciousness, whose nature is blissful and infinite, is only 
> reflected by bodies depending on their purity (the more pure the 
> nervous system, the greater the reflected consciousness).
> 
> Because TMers experience growth of awareness, they are less 
> overwhelmed by activity and the environment -- this is why they begin 
> to feel distanced, just witnesses to the activity. This is a sign of 
> strength, not pathology.
>

Heh. First time I've heard that witnessing involves seeing the body from a 
distance. 
SOunds more like someone is having a pathological state and is indulging in 
some wishful 
thinking...

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[markmeredith2002]

> On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:18 AM, suziezuzie wrote:
> 
> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self
> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic
> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has
> > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> >
> > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM movement.
> > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the explanation  
> > given
> > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of
> > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing
> > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality disorders
> > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed by
> > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or the TM
> > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a natural,
> > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self throughout
> > the three states of consciousness? Mark

This is an excellent question, and one which should be central to
people involved in the tmo.  AFter much research, I think the answer
is a very strong "it depends on the individual".  I see a very high
rate of psychological disorders among sidhas as well as a very high
rate of heightened awareness and evolution.  The effect of long term
tm-sidhis practice on an individual completely depends on the
individual.  The dangerous myth is that everyone starting the sidhis
is in the same place spiritually and has the same generic type of
experiences with the same generic effects over time.  This is
especially problematic in spiritual groups like the fairfield
community where you find above-average incidence of traumatic
childhoods, either severely traumatic in terms of abuse or just mildly
in terms of being raised in an alcoholic or otherwise unstable env't.
 Childhood abuse often results in a disturbed kundalini process which
can often be made worse by the sidhis resulting in severe
psychological problems, which we've all seen in a minority of people
on courses throughout the yrs, esp the older days.  Milder problems
may not be exacerbated by the sidhis but may also not be helped which
combined with an avoidance of active healing process (because it's
just analyzing the dirt) could over time create the stereotypical type
of neurotic/obsessive/overly mental/emotionally flat sidha that is
quite common.  OTOH, the tm-sidhis program could help a person quite a
bit or even provide rapid evolution to higher consciousness depending
on their particular makeup and spiritual process.  The key for me is
that everyone on the tm-sidhis path remain open and as objective as
possible as to their actual growth in all areas of life.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

I've no doubt that there are plenty of TM teachers who self-medicate by 
meditating too 
much. However, that doesn't even suggest that TM is the cause of their 
problems. And, 
just as Bob Brigante does, I'm sure that many indulge in projection that 
"something good 
is happening" when they have a dissociative disorder and claim CC-type 
witnessing.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've spoken in detail to two psychiatrist friends who state in no  
> uncertain terms that TM has a high incidence of side effects, which  
> includes psychosis, exacerbation of personality disorders,  
> dissociative disorders and a host of other issues. One is involved in  
> the Spiritual Emergence Network and TMers are very common rescuees.  
> TM literature ignores the problem which further exacerbates the  
> problem which should also give you an idea of who much we should  
> trust their "research". From a yogic perspective TMers tend to  
> "store" hot energy in the head, which is kinda like having your PC in  
> a 120 degree room, it causes all sorts of problems. Unfortunately the  
> TM org provides no alternative or cure for these problems other than  
> heir extremely overpriced Ayurvedic services, medicines and  
> treatments (which often will not work anyways on this specific issue).
> 
> It's been anecdotally reported here recently that a large number of  
> ex TM-teachers, living in Fairfield, have alcohol and/or other  
> substance abuse problems. In the absence of external verification of  
> their issues, many resort to self-medication through drugs or alcohol.
> 
> If you know someone with this type of problem, you can find resources  
> here:
> 
> http://www.internetguides.com/se/resources/senciis.html
> 
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:18 AM, suziezuzie wrote:
> 
> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self
> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic
> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has
> > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> >
> > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM movement.
> > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the explanation  
> > given
> > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of
> > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing
> > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality disorders
> > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed by
> > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or the TM
> > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a natural,
> > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self throughout
> > the three states of consciousness? Mark
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "nablusos108" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > I've spoken in detail to two psychiatrist friends who state in 
no  
> > uncertain terms that TM has a high incidence of side effects, 
> which  
> > includes psychosis, exacerbation of personality disorders,  
> > dissociative disorders and a host of other issues. One is 
involved 
> in  
> > the Spiritual Emergence Network and TMers are very common 
> rescuees.  
> > TM literature ignores the problem which further exacerbates the  
> > problem which should also give you an idea of who much we 
should  
> > trust their "research". From a yogic perspective TMers tend to  
> > "store" hot energy in the head, which is kinda like having your 
PC 
> in  
> > a 120 degree room, it causes all sorts of problems. 
Unfortunately 
> the  
> > TM org provides no alternative or cure for these problems
> > 
> > It's been anecdotally reported here recently that a large number 
> of  
> > ex TM-teachers, living in Fairfield, have alcohol and/or other  
> > substance abuse problems. In the absence of external 
verification 
> of  
> > their issues, many resort to self-medication through drugs or 
> alcohol.
> > 
> 
> 
> Vaj, your neverending campaign against TM will not succeed. Give 
up. 
> In any way of writing, you come across as a desperate fool.
> You seem to be in a lowlife existence (to much pot perhaps ?) not 
> deserving much attention. Nevertheless, lets hear what Benjamim 
> Creme, the foremost exponent of Thesosophy today has to say about 
> your "concerns".
> 
> Question.(1) Can Transcendental Meditation bring psycho-
physiological 
> problems at all, as reported by a number of meditators, or only 
when 
> it is not properly practised? (2) Are these problems not linked to 
> the practice? (3) What would be your advice to such people? (4) Is 
> Transcendental Meditation a beneficial technique? (5) Would you 
> recommend a shift from Transcendental Meditation to Transmission 
> Meditation altogether, or can both be practised at different times?
> 
> Answer by Benjamin Creme. (1) Not if properly practised. (2) The 
> problems are not linked to the practice. (3) Seek counsel of a 
> practitioner. (4) Yes. (5) Transmission Meditation is more a 
service 
> and so more beneficial to the world but both can be practised at 
> different times. 
> 
> For more information, please see: http://www.shareintl.org
>
The issue with Vaj is that he has said that he does not see 
Maharishi as in union with God (and that is probably an 
understatement!). That being the case he will be forever skeptical 
of TM and quick to point out what he and others see as its faults. 

There is nothing to be done about this. Perhaps his continued 
meditation will change his mind. In the meantime, he will continue 
to express this inaccurate and unfortunate point of view.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Fester:
> 
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:38 AM, feste37 wrote:
> 
> > You discount scientific research on TM, yet you expect us to
> > take seriously the opinions of your "two psychiatric friends," 
> > who hardly sound like unbiased observers!
> 
> No, I did not ask you to do any such thing. If YOU know a  
> psychiatrist who has worked with TM people, ask him or her.

It shouldn't even need to be remarked that 
"psychiatrists who have worked with TM people"
have been exposed only, or primarily, to TM
people *with pathology* of some sort.  Unless
these psychiatrists are able to be heroically
objective, they're naturally going to associate
TM with pathology simply because those are the
TMers they see professionally.

Anecdotal reports of this kind are completely
useless for discerning any kind of correlation.

Then too, there is almost certainly a higher
percentage of people with underlying pathology
who start and continue TM than in the ordinary
population, so even a statistical study wouldn't
really tell you all that much about whether TM
practice *generates* pathology where it didn't
exist before.

> > I have been around TM people all my adult life, and your
> > comments do not square either with what I have experienced for
> > myself through the practice of TM or what I have observed in 
> > others.
> 
> Then I guess you must not have many friends.

Words fail me.  What a desperate response.

 I've seen everything  
> from scarring due to "physio-kundalini syndrome" to delusions of  
> grandeur to dissociative disorders to tourette's-like syndromes 
> (and other side effects).
> 
> Part of the TB mindset is a carefully crafted and deeply engrained  
> mechanism of denial.

And part of the anti-TM-TB mindset is a carefully
crafted and deeply ingrained mechanism to see only
the negative and be blind to the positive.  One
might even say pathologically so.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[feste37]

I would take your views more seriously if you were willing to acknowledge that 
TM has a beneficial, even life-transforming effect on many people. But you 
come across simply as a TM-hater, just a reverse image of the TBs you 
despise. For what I mean, see Meredith's post, earlier today, which presents a 
much more balanced perspective.  

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Fester:
> 
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:38 AM, feste37 wrote:
> 
> > You discount scientific research on TM, yet you expect us to take  
> > seriously the
> > opinions of your "two psychiatric friends," who hardly sound like  
> > unbiased
> > observers!
> 
> No, I did not ask you to do any such thing. If YOU know a  
> psychiatrist who has worked with TM people, ask him or her.
> 
> > I have been around TM people all my adult life, and your
> > comments do not square either with what I have experienced for myself
> > through the practice of TM or what I have observed in others.
> 
> Then I guess you must not have many friends. I've seen everything  
> from scarring due to "physio-kundalini syndrome" to delusions of  
> grandeur to dissociative disorders to tourette's-like syndromes (and  
> other side effects).
> 
> Part of the TB mindset is a carefully crafted and deeply engrained  
> mechanism of denial.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:53 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > It shouldn't even need to be remarked that
> > "psychiatrists who have worked with TM people"
> > have been exposed only, or primarily, to TM
> > people *with pathology* of some sort.  Unless
> > these psychiatrists are able to be heroically
> > objective, they're naturally going to associate
> > TM with pathology simply because those are the
> > TMers they see professionally.
> 
> Right, Judy, and if a shrink sees someone who happens to be
> a banker, lawyer or hair dresser, he or she is automatically
> going to associate those professions with pathology also.
> Makes perfect sense.



Bogus analogy, Sal.  But you knew that.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 11:35 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:53 AM, authfriend wrote:
> >>
> >>> It shouldn't even need to be remarked that
> >>> "psychiatrists who have worked with TM people"
> >>> have been exposed only, or primarily, to TM
> >>> people *with pathology* of some sort.  Unless
> >>> these psychiatrists are able to be heroically
> >>> objective, they're naturally going to associate
> >>> TM with pathology simply because those are the
> >>> TMers they see professionally.
> >>
> >> Right, Judy, and if a shrink sees someone who happens to be
> >> a banker, lawyer or hair dresser, he or she is automatically
> >> going to associate those professions with pathology also.
> >> Makes perfect sense.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Bogus analogy, Sal.  But you knew that.
> 
> Um no it's not, Judy.  But you knew that as well.

Uh, yes it is, Sal, and you know it as well as I do.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of 
Self 
> > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
> > Cosmic 
> > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
has 
> > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > 
> > > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM 
> > movement. 
> > > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the 
explanation 
> > given 
> > > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of 
> > > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing 
> > > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality 
> > disorders 
> > > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed 
by 
> > > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or 
the 
> > TM 
> > > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a 
natural, 
> > > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self 
> > throughout 
> > > the three states of consciousness? Mark
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The experience of witnessing is a perfectly normal part of growth 
of 
> > consciousness. The sense of seeing the body as from a distance 
means 
> > that the identification of oneself with the body is lessening, 
which 
> > is a good thing, because the truth of life is that the witness 
> > consciousness, whose nature is blissful and infinite, is only 
> > reflected by bodies depending on their purity (the more pure the 
> > nervous system, the greater the reflected consciousness).
> > 
> > Because TMers experience growth of awareness, they are less 
> > overwhelmed by activity and the environment -- this is why they 
begin 
> > to feel distanced, just witnesses to the activity. This is a sign 
of 
> > strength, not pathology.
> >
> 


> Heh. First time I've heard that witnessing involves seeing the body 
from a distance. 
> SOunds more like someone is having a pathological state and is 
indulging in some wishful 
> thinking...
>

**

Not at all -- it's my experience as well as the experience of 
thousands of other TMers, and it's the classic description of 
witnessing in the Vedic texts:

 "...he views the body as a spectator looks at a distant crowd."
--p.229 of The Concise Yoga Vasistha

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation 
of 
> > Self 
> > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude 
to 
> > > > Cosmic 
> > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology 
that 
> > has 
> > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > 
> > > > > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM 
> > > > movement. 
> > > > > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the 
> > explanation 
> > > > given 
> > > > > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The 
state of 
> > > > > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing 
> > > > > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality 
> > > > disorders 
> > > > > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be 
confirmed 
> > by 
> > > > > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the 
TMO or 
> > the 
> > > > TM 
> > > > > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a 
> > natural, 
> > > > > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self 
> > > > throughout 
> > > > > the three states of consciousness? Mark
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The experience of witnessing is a perfectly normal part of 
growth 
> > of 
> > > > consciousness. The sense of seeing the body as from a 
distance 
> > means 
> > > > that the identification of oneself with the body is 
lessening, 
> > which 
> > > > is a good thing, because the truth of life is that the 
witness 
> > > > consciousness, whose nature is blissful and infinite, is only 
> > > > reflected by bodies depending on their purity (the more pure 
the 
> > > > nervous system, the greater the reflected consciousness).
> > > > 
> > > > Because TMers experience growth of awareness, they are less 
> > > > overwhelmed by activity and the environment -- this is why 
they 
> > begin 
> > > > to feel distanced, just witnesses to the activity. This is a 
sign 
> > of 
> > > > strength, not pathology.
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Heh. First time I've heard that witnessing involves seeing the 
body 
> > from a distance. 
> > > SOunds more like someone is having a pathological state and is 
> > indulging in some wishful 
> > > thinking...
> > >
> > 
> > **
> > 
> > Not at all -- it's my experience as well as the experience of 
> > thousands of other TMers, and it's the classic description of 
> > witnessing in the Vedic texts:
> > 
> >  "...he views the body as a spectator looks at a distant crowd."
> > --p.229 of The Concise Yoga Vasistha
> >
> 
> Sounds like thousands of TMers and the author of the Concise Yoga 
Vasistha are confused 
> then...

Are we maybe taking this a bit too literally?
I wonder whether the terms "see" and "view"
actually refer to the visual sense, or to 
something more abstract for which we don't
have a good term.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie"  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of 
> Self 
> > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
> > > Cosmic 
> > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
> has 
> > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > 
> > > > A prelude to CC is the understanding given to us by the TM 
> > > movement. 
> > > > Personality disorder, depersonalization, etc., is the 
> explanation 
> > > given 
> > > > by the TM critics. How do we verify which is true? The state of 
> > > > flatness as a prelude to CC would be measured by increasing 
> > > > stabilization of Self as defined by what CC is. Personality 
> > > disorders 
> > > > such as spaciness, depersonalization, etc., would be confirmed 
> by 
> > > > observations of pathology. So who should we believe, the TMO or 
> the 
> > > TM 
> > > > Critics. Is this 'flatness of perception a pathology or a 
> natural, 
> > > > normal prelude to enlightenment defined as stabilized Self 
> > > throughout 
> > > > the three states of consciousness? Mark
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The experience of witnessing is a perfectly normal part of growth 
> of 
> > > consciousness. The sense of seeing the body as from a distance 
> means 
> > > that the identification of oneself with the body is lessening, 
> which 
> > > is a good thing, because the truth of life is that the witness 
> > > consciousness, whose nature is blissful and infinite, is only 
> > > reflected by bodies depending on their purity (the more pure the 
> > > nervous system, the greater the reflected consciousness).
> > > 
> > > Because TMers experience growth of awareness, they are less 
> > > overwhelmed by activity and the environment -- this is why they 
> begin 
> > > to feel distanced, just witnesses to the activity. This is a sign 
> of 
> > > strength, not pathology.
> > >
> > 
> 
> 
> > Heh. First time I've heard that witnessing involves seeing the body 
> from a distance. 
> > SOunds more like someone is having a pathological state and is 
> indulging in some wishful 
> > thinking...
> >
> 
> **
> 
> Not at all -- it's my experience as well as the experience of 
> thousands of other TMers, and it's the classic description of 
> witnessing in the Vedic texts:
> 
>  "...he views the body as a spectator looks at a distant crowd."
> --p.229 of The Concise Yoga Vasistha
>

Sounds like thousands of TMers and the author of the Concise Yoga Vasistha are 
confused 
then...

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've spoken in detail to two psychiatrist friends who state in no
> uncertain terms that TM has a high incidence of side effects  >>>

Side effects.
THEN, the real fun begins, because when you reach
enlightenment you have to fight Balrogs.
http://tinyurl.com/sz7fg 

Get ready.

OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yup, agni mantras can be quite heating. Some people can take them and
> some can't. Not a very good idea to use them in techniques for the
masses.>>>

Why not?

No matter what you do, when you get enlightened you will have to face
this.
http://tinyurl.com/sz7fg 

Get ready.
img src="http://www.activereviews.com/screens/383/Balrog_Screenshot.jpg";
alt="" border="0">


OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[off_world_beings]

img src="http://www.activereviews.com/screens/383/Balrog_Screenshot.jpg";
alt="" border="0">

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic 
> Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> nothing to do with enlightenment?
> 

It is the beginning of CC.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> wrote:
> >
> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic 
> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > 
> 
> It is the beginning of CC.
>

The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological thing. CC isn't 
the same.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of 
Self 
> > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
Cosmic 
> > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
has 
> > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > 
> > 
> > It is the beginning of CC.
> >
> 

> The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
thing. CC isn't the same.
>



Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the body, 
is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that this 
sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the sense 
of it's being oneself is dominant.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Robert Gimbel]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> >> On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:18 AM, suziezuzie wrote:
> >>
> >> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of 
Self
> >> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
Cosmic
> >> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
has
> >> > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> 
> 
> Just depends on the system. Because you're probably talking 
about TM you 
> should know that it is a technique of tantra based on affirmation 
of the 
> divinity of mahalakshmi as the evolutionary shakti of Vishnu the 
preserver 
> of life. Because your bija technique is nishkrama or devoid of 
specific 
> samkalpa or goal, therefore you will only derive what is known as 
grace from 
> the technique. The other movement techniques offered are the other 
means 
> offered of recombining the inner and outer, and the reason this 
matters to 
> you is that because Hinduism is eternalistic that means you shall 
have to 
> petition deities for your reunification. this is the practice of 
the 
> purnavidya.
> 
> EG., in shunyatavidya all are one at the base which is empty, and 
cannot be 
> summed up as any extreme. Self arising, thus vidya or knowledge and 
> cognition is available anytime one has the ability to incisively 
cut through 
> discursive thought to its base as awareness or light or clarity. If 
one is 
> able to constantly affirm their nature as light awareness free from 
> discursive tendencies even during discursive tendencies then under 
> techniques of shunyatavidya one may feel the ripple of wholeness 
from the 
> emptiness of their reunified inner/outer mandala. And the reason 
under 
> shunyata that it's so easy is it take no energy as one need not 
affirm or 
> reify any thought structure but simply let them all fall. Having 
done so 
> however one takes the final leap into faith and freedom from 
mentality.
> 
> In either case one will probably seem insane from the outside.  But 
will one 
> be? Only they can really decide. Are you happy? Can you realize 
unity? Now? 
> Or soon? I am for both purna and shunyata vidyas. That's 200 
percent minus 
> nothing = 200 percent. Seems pretty compatible.

Aren't almost all enlightened people thought to be 'crazy' at one 
time or another.
Weren't witches burned alive for having spiritual 'powers'.
Wasn't Jesus considered to be 'crazy' by his executioners...(Mocking 
the king the Jews..).
So, if enlightenment were all that easy, to acheive, wouldn't we all 
be enlightened?

Of course some people go off the deep end from time to time;
That's just a part of growth.
Like a snake shedding it's skin.
It's holding on to what is dead and gone, that drives people crazy.
'Let the dead bury the dead'.
So, Maharishi came up with some pretty powerful techniques? Some 
freaked out?
He just gave out what was needed and wanted? right? more techniques, 
more knowledge, more, more, more. Practice together, intensify the 
experience. Save the world, while doing your practice.
 
The Bagavad Gita says: 'the wise don't confound the ignorant'.
Being 'one with all that is', is not the experience of the average 
person, although the experience maybe becoming more common, we still 
have a long way to go.
R.G.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> So, if enlightenment were all that easy to acheive, 
> wouldn't we all be enlightened?

Some people's sense of self is so strong that
they are tempted to take themselves seriously.
Once you've started down that path, learning
to laugh at the self and letting it go when
its usefulness is done is *perceived* to be 
difficult. And as one perceives, so one lives...

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to
Cosmic 
> > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > 
> > 
> > It is the beginning of CC.
> >
> 
> The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological
thing. CC isn't the same.
>

I see that you have already been sorted out by someone else for your
faulty reply, so I'll just make the observation that you would have
spared yourself the embarrassment if you have taken the time to
actually read the post you replied to before replying.

The issue you responded to is "beginning of CC" - not CC per se.

Not that it matters, you're wrong anyway.

Moreover, as you approach CC it's more about the body being external
to You, rather than the way you choose to misconstrue it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of 
> Self 
> > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to 
> Cosmic 
> > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
> has 
> > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > >
> > 
> 
> > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
> thing. CC isn't the same.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
> bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the body, 
> is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
> relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that this 
> sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the sense 
> of it's being oneself is dominant.
>

It is experienced as not the Experiencer. That's NOT that same as looking on 
the body, as 
if from a distance.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self 
> > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to
> Cosmic 
> > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has 
> > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > >
> > 
> > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological
> thing. CC isn't the same.
> >
> 
> I see that you have already been sorted out by someone else for your
> faulty reply, so I'll just make the observation that you would have
> spared yourself the embarrassment if you have taken the time to
> actually read the post you replied to before replying.
> 
> The issue you responded to is "beginning of CC" - not CC per se.
> 
> Not that it matters, you're wrong anyway.
> 
> Moreover, as you approach CC it's more about the body being external
> to You, rather than the way you choose to misconstrue it.
>

There's no internal OR external. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[suziezuzie]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 

> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation 
of 
> Self 
> > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude 
to 
> Cosmic 
> > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
> has 
> > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > >
> > 
> 
> > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
> thing. CC isn't the same.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
> bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the 
body, 
> is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
> relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that 
this 
> sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the 
sense 
> of it's being oneself is dominant.
>

The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a physical-
limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside the 
body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since the 
Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer to 'not 
connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a different 
point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out of 
the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a denser 
(astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
distance.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation 
> of 
> > Self 
> > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude 
> to 
> > Cosmic 
> > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology 
that 
> > has 
> > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
> > > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
> > thing. CC isn't the same.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
> > bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the 
> body, 
> > is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
> > relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that 
> this 
> > sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the 
> sense 
> > of it's being oneself is dominant.
> >
> 
> The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a physical-
> limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside the 
> body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since 
the 
> Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer 
to 'not 
> connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a 
different 
> point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out of 
> the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a 
denser 
> (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 


> Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> distance.
>




If I'm watching TV, I'm doing do so from a distance. If I'm watching 
a baseball game at the park, I'm doing so from a distance. The 
experience of witnessing is an experience of watching from a 
distance, and the reason why one begins to feel distanced from the 
body as one grows in consciousness is because one is no longer 
overwhelmed (due to limited awareness) by physical phenomena. 
Ultimately, when Cosmic Consciousness is gained, and one is a witness 
to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of the body, 
ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[suziezuzie]

> > The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a 
physical-
> > limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside 
the 
> > body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> > relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since 
> the 
> > Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> > description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer 
> to 'not 
> > connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a 
> different 
> > point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out 
of 
> > the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a 
> denser 
> > (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> 
> 
> > Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> > distance.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm watching TV, I'm doing do so from a distance. If I'm 
watching 
> a baseball game at the park, I'm doing so from a distance. The 
> experience of witnessing is an experience of watching from a 
> distance, and the reason why one begins to feel distanced from the 
> body as one grows in consciousness is because one is no longer 
> overwhelmed (due to limited awareness) by physical phenomena. 
> Ultimately, when Cosmic Consciousness is gained, and one is a 
witness 
> to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of the 
body, 
> ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.

It doesn't matter why we witness, "because one is no longer 
overwhelmed by physical phenomena" or sense perception. You're hung 
up on the words, 'outside' and 'distance'. From the perspective of 
the unlocalised Self, there is no outside or distance. It witnesses 
Itself as not connected. The same is said about Krishna, while 
creating the universe He is uninvolved, not from a distance or 
outside his creation, but on the level of the Absolute, not involved. 
There are no considerations of outside or distance with regards to 
Atma, Self or the Absolute or Brahman. They exist everywhere and 
nowhere--The Witness of it's own creation. The scripture that you 
quote uses the words outside or distance merely as a convenience to 
convey a concept that is beyond description, the idea of Witnessing.  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> > > The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a 
> physical-
> > > limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside 
> the 
> > > body because this is how we experience the world, subject-
object 
> > > relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, 
since 
> > the 
> > > Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> > > description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer 
> > to 'not 
> > > connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a 
> > different 
> > > point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being 
out 
> of 
> > > the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a 
> > denser 
> > > (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> > 
> > 
> > > Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> > > distance.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > If I'm watching TV, I'm doing do so from a distance. If I'm 
> watching 
> > a baseball game at the park, I'm doing so from a distance. The 
> > experience of witnessing is an experience of watching from a 
> > distance, and the reason why one begins to feel distanced from 
the 
> > body as one grows in consciousness is because one is no longer 
> > overwhelmed (due to limited awareness) by physical phenomena. 
> > Ultimately, when Cosmic Consciousness is gained, and one is a 
> witness 
> > to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of the 
> body, 
> > ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.
> 

> It doesn't matter why we witness, "because one is no longer 
> overwhelmed by physical phenomena" or sense perception. You're hung 
> up on the words, 'outside' and 'distance'. From the perspective of 
> the unlocalised Self, there is no outside or distance. It witnesses 
> Itself as not connected. The same is said about Krishna, while 
> creating the universe He is uninvolved, not from a distance or 
> outside his creation, but on the level of the Absolute, not 
involved. 
> There are no considerations of outside or distance with regards to 
> Atma, Self or the Absolute or Brahman. They exist everywhere and 
> nowhere--The Witness of it's own creation. The scripture that you 
> quote uses the words outside or distance merely as a convenience to 
> convey a concept that is beyond description, the idea of Witnessing.
>

**

The state of Cosmic Consciousness is not Brahman (Lord Krishna) or 
Unity Consciousness. 

In CC, there is perception of difference between oneself (infinite 
consciousness) and phenomenal reality, because although the awareness 
of Self is fully developed and cannot be lost, the senses are too 
limited to see the infinite.

 This situation is resolved in Unity Consciousness when the range of 
the senses extends to celestial values and one sees oneself in every 
object of perception.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation 
> of 
> > Self 
> > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude 
> to 
> > Cosmic 
> > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
> > has 
> > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
> > > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
> > thing. CC isn't the same.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
> > bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the 
> body, 
> > is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
> > relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that 
> this 
> > sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the 
> sense 
> > of it's being oneself is dominant.
> >
> 
> The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a physical-
> limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside the 
> body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since the 
> Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer to 'not 
> connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a different 
> point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out of 
> the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a denser 
> (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> distance.
>

However, the disfunctional kind of witnessing found in the DSM-IV often speaks 
of having 
a viewpoint as though outside and above and/or behind the body with a definite 
sense of 
geographic location.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie"  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
>  
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation 
> > of 
> > > Self 
> > > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude 
> > to 
> > > Cosmic 
> > > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology 
> that 
> > > has 
> > > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
> > > thing. CC isn't the same.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
> > > bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the 
> > body, 
> > > is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
> > > relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that 
> > this 
> > > sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the 
> > sense 
> > > of it's being oneself is dominant.
> > >
> > 
> > The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a physical-
> > limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside the 
> > body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> > relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since 
> the 
> > Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> > description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer 
> to 'not 
> > connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a 
> different 
> > point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out of 
> > the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a 
> denser 
> > (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> 
> 
> > Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> > distance.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm watching TV, I'm doing do so from a distance. If I'm watching 
> a baseball game at the park, I'm doing so from a distance. The 
> experience of witnessing is an experience of watching from a 
> distance, and the reason why one begins to feel distanced from the 
> body as one grows in consciousness is because one is no longer 
> overwhelmed (due to limited awareness) by physical phenomena. 
> Ultimately, when Cosmic Consciousness is gained, and one is a witness 
> to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of the body, 
> ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.
>

Sounds less than CC-ish to me.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[suziezuzie]

> 
> > It doesn't matter why we witness, "because one is no longer 
> > overwhelmed by physical phenomena" or sense perception. You're 
hung 
> > up on the words, 'outside' and 'distance'. From the perspective 
of 
> > the unlocalised Self, there is no outside or distance. It 
witnesses 
> > Itself as not connected. The same is said about Krishna, while 
> > creating the universe He is uninvolved, not from a distance or 
> > outside his creation, but on the level of the Absolute, not 
> involved. 
> > There are no considerations of outside or distance with regards 
to 
> > Atma, Self or the Absolute or Brahman. They exist everywhere and 
> > nowhere--The Witness of it's own creation. The scripture that you 
> > quote uses the words outside or distance merely as a convenience 
to 
> > convey a concept that is beyond description, the idea of 
Witnessing.
> >
> 
> **
> 
> The state of Cosmic Consciousness is not Brahman (Lord Krishna) or 
> Unity Consciousness. 
> 
> In CC, there is perception of difference between oneself (infinite 
> consciousness) and phenomenal reality, because although the 
awareness 
> of Self is fully developed and cannot be lost, the senses are too 
> limited to see the infinite.
> 
>  This situation is resolved in Unity Consciousness when the range 
of 
> the senses extends to celestial values and one sees oneself in 
every 
> object of perception.


Right, I agree. You're describing a total polarity of experience, 
Self on one hand and the phenomenal world on the other with flatness 
as a kind of reaction of the Self to the world perception. The issue 
here is whether CC is experienced as a  perceived  'distance' or 
outside-ness of the Self and the object of perception. I don't think 
they do. It's like the Self is a self contained experience in itself 
with no reference to something outside or at a distance. It just Is 
while the objective reality is circumambulating around It. Have you 
ever felt that the Self is just Being while the body, the objective 
experience, etc., is moving around it like someone riding in a car 
and having the sensation of not moving anywhere. Like this, the Self 
is riding along, not moving while time, space, etc, is apparently 
moving but in reality, nothing is moving with reference to the Self. 
The illusion is that we're moving through space and time but this is 
just a subjective-objective perception. In CC with the duality of 
Self and experience, with the reference point as the Self, nothing is 
moving. This would give the idea that there is no outside or distance 
of Self and objective experience.


>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> However, the disfunctional kind of witnessing found in the DSM-IV 
often speaks of having 
> a viewpoint as though outside and above and/or behind the body with a 
definite sense of 
> geographic location.
>

***

What the DSM describes ("depersonalization") has nothing to do with 
witnessing arising from practice of TM, which witnessing is a calm 
experience and a sign of strength based on the expansion of awareness, 
and is not a sign of a traumatized nervous system, as depersonalization 
is:

"A person suffering from depersonalization disorder experiences 
subjective symptoms of unreality that make him or her uneasy and 
anxious."

http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Depersonalization-disorder.html

The only real practical reason why TMers are tipped off to witnessing 
is so that when they begin to experience it, they do not think 
something is wrong with them, but understand that witnessing is a sign 
of growth of Cosmic Consciousness values. Otherwise, people might start 
to think that something is going wrong, but witnessing is nothing like 
the anxious process of depersonalization experienced by the traumatized.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Chadwick 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ultimately, when Cosmic Consciousness is gained, and one is a 
> witness to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of 
the 
> body, ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.
> 

>  This is alot of nonsense.  If Jesus and Gurdjieff had a hard time 
with it, good luck.
> 

**

Jesus did not suffer, although it looked that way from the 
perspective of suffering humans:

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi commented, "It's a pity that Christ is talked 
of in terms of suffering…those who count upon the suffering, it is a 
wrong interpretation of the life of Christ and the message of Christ…
How could suffering be associated with the One who has been all joy, 
all bliss, who claims all that? It's only the misunderstanding of the 
life of Christ."
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Meditations of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, pp. 123-
124
*
Maharishi: Jesus never suffered and those who saw him suffering saw 
him from their own level of suffering. . . so they could not see 
anything except suffering in him.
Question: Is not the Cross a symbol of suffering?
Maharishi: No, the Cross does not represent suffering and it is not 
meant to. On the other hand, it is the symbol for eternal life. It 
represents cosmic existence, fullness of life. . . a life of all 
bliss, wisdom, creativity. 
(Meditation by His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi with Questions and 
Answers, International SRM Publications, London 1967, page 140 ff.) 

**

Anyway, if Jesus arose from the dead after three days and walked 
around with his disciples, then obviously He was not overwhelmed by 
death.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[suziezuzie]

> > 
> > The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a 
physical-
> > limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside 
the 
> > body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> > relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since 
the 
> > Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> > description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer 
to 'not 
> > connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a 
different 
> > point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out 
of 
> > the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a 
denser 
> > (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> > Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> > distance.
> >
> 
> However, the disfunctional kind of witnessing found in the DSM-IV 
often speaks of having 
> a viewpoint as though outside and above and/or behind the body with 
a definite sense of 
> geographic location.>


Right. This is why I keep emphasizing that an experience of CC does 
not involve a sense of geographic location as being behind, over, or 
in front of the body. Witnessing does not give a sense of location of 
the Self as in the body or out of the body. On the other hand, mental 
illness or drug induced dislocation of the personality out of the 
body can be described as pathological as you've stated. I can 
understand the confusion since the term witnessing or flatness of 
experience could be interpreted as the pathology described in the 
article on Depersonalization but if you read the article carefully, 
you can only conclude that what is being spoken of is not what we 
experience in the practices of TM unless an individual is already 
prone to this state. 

If you were to ask where the self or sense of personality is located 
before CC, you would have to conclude that the I-ness seems to be 
located in the head just behind the eyes. This is where the habit of 
thinking takes place, seeing, hearing, etc. The habitual location of 
the small self seems to be in this location. As the Self becomes more 
generalized, this location becomes less and less pronounced but 
definitely not outside the body. 

People whose sense of self resides outside the body cannot meditate 
since one of the requirements for a successful TM experience is for 
all the bodies from the grossest to the most subtle, seven in all, 
must be perfectly aligned, one within the other. This is why people 
on drugs cannot meditate. Drugs, alcohol, anesthetics, etc.,  place 
the self or personality out of the body. 

Mark 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > 
> > > The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a 
> physical-
> > > limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside 
> the 
> > > body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> > > relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since 
> the 
> > > Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> > > description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer 
> to 'not 
> > > connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a 
> different 
> > > point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out 
> of 
> > > the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a 
> denser 
> > > (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> > > Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> > > distance.
> > >
> > 
> > However, the disfunctional kind of witnessing found in the DSM-IV 
> often speaks of having 
> > a viewpoint as though outside and above and/or behind the body with 
> a definite sense of 
> > geographic location.>
> 
> 
> Right. This is why I keep emphasizing that an experience of CC does 
> not involve a sense of geographic location as being behind, over, or 
> in front of the body. Witnessing does not give a sense of location of 
> the Self as in the body or out of the body. On the other hand, mental 
> illness or drug induced dislocation of the personality out of the 
> body can be described as pathological as you've stated. I can 
> understand the confusion since the term witnessing or flatness of 
> experience could be interpreted as the pathology described in the 
> article on Depersonalization but if you read the article carefully, 
> you can only conclude that what is being spoken of is not what we 
> experience in the practices of TM unless an individual is already 
> prone to this state. 
> 
> If you were to ask where the self or sense of personality is located 
> before CC, you would have to conclude that the I-ness seems to be 
> located in the head just behind the eyes. This is where the habit of 
> thinking takes place, seeing, hearing, etc. The habitual location of 
> the small self seems to be in this location. As the Self becomes more 
> generalized, this location becomes less and less pronounced but 
> definitely not outside the body. 
> 
> People whose sense of self resides outside the body cannot meditate 
> since one of the requirements for a successful TM experience is for 
> all the bodies from the grossest to the most subtle, seven in all, 
> must be perfectly aligned, one within the other. This is why people 
> on drugs cannot meditate. Drugs, alcohol, anesthetics, etc.,  place 
> the self or personality out of the body. 
> 

I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can meditate.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Robert Gimbel]

 
> > 
> > Right. This is why I keep emphasizing that an experience of CC 
does 
> > not involve a sense of geographic location as being behind, over, 
or 
> > in front of the body. Witnessing does not give a sense of 
location of 
> > the Self as in the body or out of the body. On the other hand, 
mental 
> > illness or drug induced dislocation of the personality out of the 
> > body can be described as pathological as you've stated. I can 
> > understand the confusion since the term witnessing or flatness of 
> > experience could be interpreted as the pathology described in the 
> > article on Depersonalization but if you read the article 
carefully, 
> > you can only conclude that what is being spoken of is not what we 
> > experience in the practices of TM unless an individual is already 
> > prone to this state. 
> > 
> > If you were to ask where the self or sense of personality is 
located 
> > before CC, you would have to conclude that the I-ness seems to be 
> > located in the head just behind the eyes. This is where the habit 
of 
> > thinking takes place, seeing, hearing, etc. The habitual location 
of 
> > the small self seems to be in this location. As the Self becomes 
more 
> > generalized, this location becomes less and less pronounced but 
> > definitely not outside the body. 
> > 
> > People whose sense of self resides outside the body cannot 
meditate 
> > since one of the requirements for a successful TM experience is 
for 
> > all the bodies from the grossest to the most subtle, seven in 
all, 
> > must be perfectly aligned, one within the other. This is why 
people 
> > on drugs cannot meditate. Drugs, alcohol, anesthetics, etc.,  
place 
> > the self or personality out of the body. 
> > 
> 
> I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can 
meditate.
>


I agree, this is the instruction: ' If you can think, you can 
meditate.

But, I do remember Maharishi commenting on Krishnamurti's teachings, 
and claiming that(Krishnamurti), was in CC.
And I agree, CC, can be a very flat, detatched experience; if you 
read any of Krishnamurti's work, or hear him speak; he's rather flat. 
I think.
As far as being 'outside the body', this can occur from drugs and 
alcohol; 
What is called a 'black-out' in alcoholism, is nothing more than the 
soul leaving the body- as the body becomes polluted to the extent 
that the soul retreats from the body, and then open to other 'lower 
forces;
I think most people, 'leave their body', when they fall asleep.

Part of beginning to feel the 'Unity', I feel, is to begin to take 
responsiblity for everything which happens to you.
Start to feel, that everything that happens,that you created it to be 
that way, or at least your soul did.
And the more we can feel that there is no more us, or them, or anyone 
or anything that created anything for us that we didn't want or need;

And start accepting the infinite potential which takes- letting go of 
any need to feel victimized or superior to anything...
Then you have allowed for 'oneness', to 'be'.
 
"United we stand, divided we fall"

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think,   
> > you can meditate.
> 
> 
> Shouldn't that've read:
> 
> If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can   
> *not think*, you can meditate?


LOL. Nice one.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can  
> > meditate.
> 
> 
> Shouldn't that've read:
> 
> If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not think*,  
> you can meditate?
>

Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives) without 
transcending, and yet 
they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:50 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:
> >>
> >>> I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can
> >>> meditate.
> >>
> >>
> >> Shouldn't that've read:
> >>
> >> If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not 
> >> think*, you can meditate?
> >
> > Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)  
> > without transcending, and yet
> > they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.
> 
> Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still  
> cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation 
> practice.
> 
> They require more skillful means.

It all depends on your definition for what meditation 
is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
samadhi, then TM is meditation. If you define it as
the periods of samadhi and weight the benefits as
coming primarily from those periods, then some other 
techniques may provide a more "skillful means."

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:56 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
> 
> > It all depends on your definition for what meditation
> > is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
> > of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
> > samadhi, then TM is meditation.
> 
> Even if they never "transcend"?

Yup. There may be some benefit to just sitting
and relaxing. But also, I have met many people
who didn't think they *were* transcending until
they had a clear, several-minutes-long experience
of samadhi. With that clear experience under their
belts, they realized they'd been having brief
moments of samadhi all along, but had never
noticed them because they were looking for
something other than what they are.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:50 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:
> >>
> >>> I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can
> >>> meditate.
> >>
> >>
> >> Shouldn't that've read:
> >>
> >> If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not think*,
> >> you can meditate?
> >>
> >
> > Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)  
> > without transcending, and yet
> > they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.
> 
> 
> Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still  
> cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation practice.
> 
> They require more skillful means.
>

So they failed at meditating. Thanks for explaining it all...

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:50 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can
> > >>> meditate.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Shouldn't that've read:
> > >>
> > >> If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not 
> > >> think*, you can meditate?
> > >
> > > Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)  
> > > without transcending, and yet
> > > they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.
> > 
> > Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still  
> > cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation 
> > practice.
> > 
> > They require more skillful means.
> 
> It all depends on your definition for what meditation 
> is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
> of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
> samadhi, then TM is meditation. If you define it as
> the periods of samadhi and weight the benefits as
> coming primarily from those periods, then some other 
> techniques may provide a more "skillful means."
>


Assuming that those techniques bring about "real" samadhi of course...

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:56 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
> 
> > It all depends on your definition for what meditation
> > is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
> > of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
> > samadhi, then TM is meditation.
> 
> 
> Even if they never "transcend"?
>


Let's hear how you know whether or not they "transcend."

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > 
> > On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:56 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
> > 
> > > It all depends on your definition for what meditation
> > > is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
> > > of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
> > > samadhi, then TM is meditation.
> > 
> > Even if they never "transcend"?
> 
> Yup. There may be some benefit to just sitting
> and relaxing. But also, I have met many people
> who didn't think they *were* transcending until
> they had a clear, several-minutes-long experience
> of samadhi. With that clear experience under their
> belts, they realized they'd been having brief
> moments of samadhi all along, but had never
> noticed them because they were looking for
> something other than what they are.
>

Recent research on transcending changed how  the researchers were trying to 
detect it. 
Originally, they asked  people to press a button when they noticed it. They 
found episodes 
of transcending associated with the button press from about 15 seconds to over 
a minute.

They decided that asking people to "atch out for" transcending might be 
interfering with 
the process and instead ran a bell 3 times at random during a meditatio 
session, and then 
asked people to describe what was going on when they heard the bell, and 
compared it to 
the physiological measures.

Using THIS strategy they isolated periods of transcending as brief as 2 or 3 
seconds. 
MMY's description of transcending suggests that it occurs constantly, whether 
you are 
meditating or not, but is too brief and too "cloudy" for most people to ever 
notice. This 
latest research seems to support this idea. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 6:10 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:56 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
> >>
> >>> It all depends on your definition for what meditation
> >>> is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
> >>> of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
> >>> samadhi, then TM is meditation.
> >>
> >> Even if they never "transcend"?
> >
> > Yup. There may be some benefit to just sitting
> > and relaxing. But also, I have met many people
> > who didn't think they *were* transcending until
> > they had a clear, several-minutes-long experience
> > of samadhi. With that clear experience under their
> > belts, they realized they'd been having brief
> > moments of samadhi all along, but had never
> > noticed them because they were looking for
> > something other than what they are.
> 
> 
> In this case we're talking about people who "go for years and decades  
> (or their entire lives) without transcending". That's what I'm  
> responding to.
> 
> I say: what a waste of time. If they're not aware of transcending,  
> this is another question entirely or if they're just looking for  
> relaxation or stress management. If they're not "transcendental"  
> *successfully* within a year or so, these people would be better off  
> finding something more efficient and successful *for them*. The  
> meditation technique needs to rise to meet the student, not  
> ncessarily the other way around. If a technique cannot produce  
> transcendence, adjustemnts should be made (and obviously "checking"  
> does not always do this). To propose that consistent *failure* to  
> transcend is "success" is TB and brainwashed nonsense. Different  
> people benefit from different styles of meditation. If they're given  
> an inappropriate meditation technique--whatever technique that might  
> be--it's better for them to have something (anything) that will be  
> appropriate for their own unique condition of body, nadi-constitution  
> and mind.
> 
> This is why a guru observes a student over an appropriate period of  
> time before instruction is given. Commercial meditation almost always  
> ignore this important fact: we're all different.
>

Of course, given that TM is advertised as working for everyone, perhaps you're 
projectintg 
your own definition of "works" onto what TM actually does.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> To propose that consistent *failure* to  
> transcend is "success" is TB and brainwashed nonsense.

Only if you have already convinced yourself that
MMY's entire theory of the nature and mechanics
of consciousness, from which he derives his theory
of meditation, is all wrong, in which case you
wouldn't be doing TM anyway.

MMY's criterion for successful meditation has
always been the effect of the practice in
activity,rather than what one experiences in
meditation.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:10 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> >>> Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)
> >>> without transcending, and yet
> >>> they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.
> >>
> >>
> >> Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still
> >> cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation  
> >> practice.
> >>
> >> They require more skillful means.
> >>
> >
> > So they failed at meditating. Thanks for explaining it all...
> 
> But, as you pointed out, they were able to get some relaxation from  
> the mantra, which Barry-1.0 pointed out is a good thing.
>

And, you have no idea what, if anything, besides simple relaxation, occurred 
due to their 
practice, and have never met 99% of the TMers of theworld, but are willing to 
decide what 
is what based, not on some alternate theory, but merely on your belief that TM 
doesn't 
work as advertised.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:19 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > Of course, given that TM is advertised as working for everyone,  
> > perhaps you're projectintg
> > your own definition of "works" onto what TM actually does.
> 
> Or you projecting your constant attachment to the effortless dogma?
>


I don't judge my practice as effortless or not-effortless, sorry.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:10 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> 
>  Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)
>  without transcending, and yet
>  they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.
> >>>
> >>> Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still
> >>> cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation
> >>> practice.
> >>>
> >>> They require more skillful means.
> >>
> >> It all depends on your definition for what meditation
> >> is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
> >> of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
> >> samadhi, then TM is meditation. If you define it as
> >> the periods of samadhi and weight the benefits as
> >> coming primarily from those periods, then some other
> >> techniques may provide a more "skillful means."
> >>
> >
> >
> > Assuming that those techniques bring about "real" samadhi of course...
> 
> 
> That is the assumption, yes.
> 
> But I also should point out that if TM teaching and checking hadn't  
> "gone canonical" (i.e "fixed" and deemed "pure"), there are perfectly  
> good ways to correct all these issues. The Hindu mantrayana is vast  
> in it's array of techniques and adjuncts. One traditional approach,  
> purification of the nadi-bioenergetic systems with pranayama, is  
> being practiced by the newer lineal descendants of Sri Sri Ravi  
> Shankar. Numerous advanced pranayama techniques, along with  
> visualizations, were used in elite TM courses but unfortunately never  
> trickled down to the rank and file. There still exists no way to get  
> their mantra changed because the underlying science of mantra is in  
> fact never taught to TM teachers. In fact, the real raison d'etre of  
> the actual mantras is hidden.
>

Numerous techniques may have b een tried and discarded as not-effective.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation
of Self 
> > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to
> > Cosmic 
> > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology
that has 
> > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological
> > thing. CC isn't the same.
> > >
> > 
> > I see that you have already been sorted out by someone else for your
> > faulty reply, so I'll just make the observation that you would have
> > spared yourself the embarrassment if you have taken the time to
> > actually read the post you replied to before replying.
> > 
> > The issue you responded to is "beginning of CC" - not CC per se.
> > 
> > Not that it matters, you're wrong anyway.
> > 
> > Moreover, as you approach CC it's more about the body being external
> > to You, rather than the way you choose to misconstrue it.
> >
> 
> There's no internal OR external.
>

Thanks for proving that (1) not only do you not know what you are a
communicating about; but also (2) are you unable to read; or (3) your
ego is so damaged by the feedback you have gotten in this thread that
you start to purposely misrepresent the postings of others.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation 
> of 
> > Self 
> > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude 
> to 
> > Cosmic 
> > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that 
> > has 
> > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
> > > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological 
> > thing. CC isn't the same.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Cosmic Consciousness means that one lives 24/7 one's real nature, 
> > bliss consciousness, and that phenomenal reality, including the 
> body, 
> > is experienced as separate from consciousness, although the 
> > relationship is friendly. It is only in Unity Consciousness that 
> this 
> > sense of duality is ended -- one sees a tree as a tree, but the 
> sense 
> > of it's being oneself is dominant.
> >
> 
> The term 'outside' as in 'outside the body' is used from a physical-
> limited understanding, that things are understood to be outside the 
> body because this is how we experience the world, subject-object 
> relationships. So for lack of a better word or description, since the 
> Self is unlimited by space and time, i.e., nonlocalized, the 
> description, 'outside' in the case of witnessing would refer to 'not 
> connected' or un connected or disconnected, viewing from a different 
> point of dimensional-fulness-reality, etc. The idea of being out of 
> the body also refers to grosser astral perceptions in which a denser 
> (astral) spirit can move out of the physical-body dimension. 
> Witnessing gives an idea of watching but not necessarily from a 
> distance.
>

As you imply, it is not only space people witnessing is disconnected
from, but from all of the oneness of space-time continuum - with the
practical result of  people also feeling disconnected from the present
- the here and now - when witnessing.

In fact, I suspect this is the first encounter most TMers have with
witnessing - the feeling of being lost in time after a deep meditation.

Lost in space comes later :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "suziezuzie" 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation
> of Self 
> > > > > > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to
> > > Cosmic 
> > > > > > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology
> that has 
> > > > > > nothing to do with enlightenment?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > It is the beginning of CC.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > The perception that you are outside your body is a pathological
> > > thing. CC isn't the same.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > I see that you have already been sorted out by someone else for your
> > > faulty reply, so I'll just make the observation that you would have
> > > spared yourself the embarrassment if you have taken the time to
> > > actually read the post you replied to before replying.
> > > 
> > > The issue you responded to is "beginning of CC" - not CC per se.
> > > 
> > > Not that it matters, you're wrong anyway.
> > > 
> > > Moreover, as you approach CC it's more about the body being external
> > > to You, rather than the way you choose to misconstrue it.
> > >
> > 
> > There's no internal OR external.
> >
> 
> Thanks for proving that (1) not only do you not know what you are a
> communicating about; but also (2) are you unable to read; or (3) your
> ego is so damaged by the feedback you have gotten in this thread that
> you start to purposely misrepresent the postings of others.
>

Huh. You said: 

as you approach CC, it's more about the body being external to You, rather than 
the way 
you choose to misconstrue it.

I said:

There's no internal OR external.


That sums up the last exchange, right? Now, the question arises: do YOU 
understand what 
I said?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

Hi Fester:

On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:38 AM, feste37 wrote:

You discount scientific research on TM, yet you expect us to take  
seriously the
opinions of your "two psychiatric friends," who hardly sound like  
unbiased

observers!


No, I did not ask you to do any such thing. If YOU know a  
psychiatrist who has worked with TM people, ask him or her.



I have been around TM people all my adult life, and your
comments do not square either with what I have experienced for myself
through the practice of TM or what I have observed in others.


Then I guess you must not have many friends. I've seen everything  
from scarring due to "physio-kundalini syndrome" to delusions of  
grandeur to dissociative disorders to tourette's-like syndromes (and  
other side effects).


Part of the TB mindset is a carefully crafted and deeply engrained  
mechanism of denial. 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:42 AM, sparaig wrote:

I've no doubt that there are plenty of TM teachers who self- 
medicate by meditating too
much. However, that doesn't even suggest that TM is the cause of  
their problems. And,
just as Bob Brigante does, I'm sure that many indulge in projection  
that "something good
is happening" when they have a dissociative disorder and claim CC- 
type witnessing.


I agree.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Sal Sunshine]

On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:53 AM, authfriend wrote:

> It shouldn't even need to be remarked that
> "psychiatrists who have worked with TM people"
> have been exposed only, or primarily, to TM
> people *with pathology* of some sort.  Unless
> these psychiatrists are able to be heroically
> objective, they're naturally going to associate
> TM with pathology simply because those are the
> TMers they see professionally.

Right, Judy, and if a shrink sees someone who happens to be a banker, 
lawyer or hair dresser, he or she is automatically going to associate 
those professions with pathology also.  Makes perfect sense.

Sal

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Sal Sunshine]

On Jan 12, 2007, at 11:35 AM, authfriend wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 12, 2007, at 10:53 AM, authfriend wrote:
>>
>>> It shouldn't even need to be remarked that
>>> "psychiatrists who have worked with TM people"
>>> have been exposed only, or primarily, to TM
>>> people *with pathology* of some sort.  Unless
>>> these psychiatrists are able to be heroically
>>> objective, they're naturally going to associate
>>> TM with pathology simply because those are the
>>> TMers they see professionally.
>>
>> Right, Judy, and if a shrink sees someone who happens to be
>> a banker, lawyer or hair dresser, he or she is automatically
>> going to associate those professions with pathology also.
>> Makes perfect sense.
>
> 
>
> Bogus analogy, Sal.  But you knew that.

Um no it's not, Judy.  But you knew that as well.

Sal

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[llundrub]

>> On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:18 AM, suziezuzie wrote:
>>
>> > When someone starts meditating, is the flatness (separation of Self
>> > from sense perception) that they begin to feel is a prelude to Cosmic
>> > Consciousness or the beginnings of personality pathology that has
>> > nothing to do with enlightenment?


Just depends on the system. Because you're probably talking about TM you 
should know that it is a technique of tantra based on affirmation of the 
divinity of mahalakshmi as the evolutionary shakti of Vishnu the preserver 
of life. Because your bija technique is nishkrama or devoid of specific 
samkalpa or goal, therefore you will only derive what is known as grace from 
the technique. The other movement techniques offered are the other means 
offered of recombining the inner and outer, and the reason this matters to 
you is that because Hinduism is eternalistic that means you shall have to 
petition deities for your reunification. this is the practice of the 
purnavidya.

EG., in shunyatavidya all are one at the base which is empty, and cannot be 
summed up as any extreme. Self arising, thus vidya or knowledge and 
cognition is available anytime one has the ability to incisively cut through 
discursive thought to its base as awareness or light or clarity. If one is 
able to constantly affirm their nature as light awareness free from 
discursive tendencies even during discursive tendencies then under 
techniques of shunyatavidya one may feel the ripple of wholeness from the 
emptiness of their reunified inner/outer mandala. And the reason under 
shunyata that it's so easy is it take no energy as one need not affirm or 
reify any thought structure but simply let them all fall. Having done so 
however one takes the final leap into faith and freedom from mentality.

In either case one will probably seem insane from the outside.  But will one 
be? Only they can really decide. Are you happy? Can you realize unity? Now? 
Or soon? I am for both purna and shunyata vidyas. That's 200 percent minus 
nothing = 200 percent. Seems pretty compatible.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Bhairitu]

off_world_beings wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Yup, agni mantras can be quite heating. Some people can take them and
>> some can't. Not a very good idea to use them in techniques for the
>> 
> masses.>>>
>
> Why not?
>
> No matter what you do, when you get enlightened you will have to face
> this.
> http://tinyurl.com/sz7fg 
>
> Get ready.
> img src="http://www.activereviews.com/screens/383/Balrog_Screenshot.jpg";
> alt="" border="0">
>
>
> OffWorld
>
>
>   
Agni mantras are heating so some folks will feel exactly like that after 
meditating.  :)

Then the day after they feel like a cinder.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Jonathan Chadwick]

suziezuzie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Ultimately, when Cosmic 
Consciousness is gained, and one is a 
witness to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of the 
body, ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.


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  .

 This is alot of nonsense.  If Jesus and Gurdjieff had a hard time with it, 
good luck.

 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:

I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can  
meditate.



Shouldn't that've read:

If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not think*,  
you can meditate?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Jonathan Chadwick]

Historically speaking, the christological position you are proposing - that 
Jesus didn't suffer - is, after all, X'n heresy (in fact in the interview you 
have quoted the Abbot of Downside points this out to Maharishi).  As for what 
happened to Jesus' after he died, there's a huge debate in the mainline 
ecumenical X'n camp still going on about that.

bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  --- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Chadwick 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ultimately, when Cosmic Consciousness is gained, and one is a 
> witness to creation all the time and permanently, even the death of 
the 
> body, ordinarily an overwhelming experience, has no meaning.
> 

> This is alot of nonsense. If Jesus and Gurdjieff had a hard time 
with it, good luck. 
> 

**

Jesus did not suffer, although it looked that way from the 
perspective of suffering humans:

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi commented, "It's a pity that Christ is talked 
of in terms of suffering…those who count upon the suffering, it is a 
wrong interpretation of the life of Christ and the message of Christ…
How could suffering be associated with the One who has been all joy, 
all bliss, who claims all that? It's only the misunderstanding of the 
life of Christ."
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Meditations of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, pp. 123-
124
*
Maharishi: Jesus never suffered and those who saw him suffering saw 
him from their own level of suffering. . . so they could not see 
anything except suffering in him.
Question: Is not the Cross a symbol of suffering?
Maharishi: No, the Cross does not represent suffering and it is not 
meant to. On the other hand, it is the symbol for eternal life. It 
represents cosmic existence, fullness of life. . . a life of all 
bliss, wisdom, creativity. 
(Meditation by His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi with Questions and 
Answers, International SRM Publications, London 1967, page 140 ff.) 

**

Anyway, if Jesus arose from the dead after three days and walked 
around with his disciples, then obviously He was not overwhelmed by 
death.



 

 
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 with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:50 PM, sparaig wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:


I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can
meditate.



Shouldn't that've read:

If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not think*,
you can meditate?



Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)  
without transcending, and yet

they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.



Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still  
cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation practice.


They require more skillful means.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:56 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:


It all depends on your definition for what meditation
is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
samadhi, then TM is meditation.



Even if they never "transcend"?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 6:10 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:56 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:


It all depends on your definition for what meditation
is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
samadhi, then TM is meditation.


Even if they never "transcend"?


Yup. There may be some benefit to just sitting
and relaxing. But also, I have met many people
who didn't think they *were* transcending until
they had a clear, several-minutes-long experience
of samadhi. With that clear experience under their
belts, they realized they'd been having brief
moments of samadhi all along, but had never
noticed them because they were looking for
something other than what they are.



In this case we're talking about people who "go for years and decades  
(or their entire lives) without transcending". That's what I'm  
responding to.


I say: what a waste of time. If they're not aware of transcending,  
this is another question entirely or if they're just looking for  
relaxation or stress management. If they're not "transcendental"  
*successfully* within a year or so, these people would be better off  
finding something more efficient and successful *for them*. The  
meditation technique needs to rise to meet the student, not  
ncessarily the other way around. If a technique cannot produce  
transcendence, adjustemnts should be made (and obviously "checking"  
does not always do this). To propose that consistent *failure* to  
transcend is "success" is TB and brainwashed nonsense. Different  
people benefit from different styles of meditation. If they're given  
an inappropriate meditation technique--whatever technique that might  
be--it's better for them to have something (anything) that will be  
appropriate for their own unique condition of body, nadi-constitution  
and mind.


This is why a guru observes a student over an appropriate period of  
time before instruction is given. Commercial meditation almost always  
ignore this important fact: we're all different.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:10 PM, sparaig wrote:


Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)
without transcending, and yet
they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.



Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still
cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation  
practice.


They require more skillful means.



So they failed at meditating. Thanks for explaining it all...


But, as you pointed out, they were able to get some relaxation from  
the mantra, which Barry-1.0 pointed out is a good thing.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:10 PM, sparaig wrote:



Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives)
without transcending, and yet
they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.


Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still
cogitating a mantra! But they have failed in their meditation
practice.

They require more skillful means.


It all depends on your definition for what meditation
is. If you define it as encompassing all the stages
of sitting and thinking, leading up to and including
samadhi, then TM is meditation. If you define it as
the periods of samadhi and weight the benefits as
coming primarily from those periods, then some other
techniques may provide a more "skillful means."




Assuming that those techniques bring about "real" samadhi of course...



That is the assumption, yes.

But I also should point out that if TM teaching and checking hadn't  
"gone canonical" (i.e "fixed" and deemed "pure"), there are perfectly  
good ways to correct all these issues. The Hindu mantrayana is vast  
in it's array of techniques and adjuncts. One traditional approach,  
purification of the nadi-bioenergetic systems with pranayama, is  
being practiced by the newer lineal descendants of Sri Sri Ravi  
Shankar. Numerous advanced pranayama techniques, along with  
visualizations, were used in elite TM courses but unfortunately never  
trickled down to the rank and file. There still exists no way to get  
their mantra changed because the underlying science of mantra is in  
fact never taught to TM teachers. In fact, the real raison d'etre of  
the actual mantras is hidden.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:19 PM, sparaig wrote:

Of course, given that TM is advertised as working for everyone,  
perhaps you're projectintg

your own definition of "works" onto what TM actually does.


Or you projecting your constant attachment to the effortless dogma?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[llundrub]

I never though I'd say this but you cynicism Vaj has earned you a spot in the 
spam bin for a year. Maybe I'll read you again someday. I'm just tired of all 
the hatred. Maybe someday you'll just get tired of sounding like someones 
bummer nagging mother.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Vaj 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 4:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder




  On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:50 PM, sparaig wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:







  On Jan 14, 2007, at 2:32 AM, sparaig wrote:




I question this conclusion,. however. If you can think, you can  

meditate.







  Shouldn't that've read:




  If you can think, you *practice meditation* if you can *not think*,  

  you can meditate?







Er, no. People go for years and decades (or their entire lives) without 
transcending, and yet 

they show much the same physiological changes in their brain.





  Er, yes. Of course you notice the same changes--they're still cogitating a 
mantra! But they have failed in their meditation practice.


  They require more skillful means.
   

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cosmic Consciousness or Personality Disorder

[Vaj]

LOL, project much?

BTW, I thought you were leaving? In any event, I'm glad to return the  
favor. You've joined Judy in my own spam bin!


On Jan 14, 2007, at 10:18 PM, llundrub wrote:

I never though I'd say this but you cynicism Vaj has earned you a  
spot in the spam bin for a year. Maybe I'll read you again someday.  
I'm just tired of all the hatred. Maybe someday you'll just get  
tired of sounding like someones bummer nagging mother.