subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: The four classes"

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:15 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:
   
Look my source for any info I have on the DL are the movies 
 Seven
years in Tibet, Kundun and that Snow Lion documentary.
   
If I've got it wrong, blame Martin Scorcese and Brad Pitt...
  
  Or blame someone so stupid and lazy that he bases
  his bigoted rant against Tibetant Buddhism on the
  little he's seen in the movies.  :-)
 
 Are you saying that Martin Scorcese was wrong?

No, merely that for cinematic reasons he shortened
a month-long process into about three or four minutes
of screen time and that you, like many equally-brain-
dead, lazy Americans, thought that those three to four
minutes portrayed the whole story.  :-)

Also, that *as* a brain-dead, lazyass, incurious American, 
you were content to *settle* for the movie version
rather than looking into the reality, and exerting a 
little effort to find out more.  :-)

 How about the documentary Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion?
 
 If I'm wrong in my analysis, why not tell me where I'm wrong?

Well, since you asked...basically I think you're an 
angry guy who has spent thirty years or so pursuing a 
spiritual path that has never paid off for him in terms 
of direct spiritual experience. Therefore, you are jealous
of and want to fuck with those whose paths *have* paid 
off for them in terms of spiritual experience. What gets
you off is trying to find things that'll enable you to put 
down those who have had experiences you have not.

In other words, your operating system is Aesopian:
sour grapes.  You'd rather put down someone else's 
experiences than do a little work to have your own.  :-)

   Read John Avedon's _In Exile From the Land of Snows_.
  
  Or, much better, read: The Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A 
  Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation, by Dalai Lama XIV, 
  Glenn H. Mullin, and Valerie Shepherd.
  
  This book lists the historical tests that were
  performed to verify that the kid named as the rein-
  carnation of the previous Dalai Lama really was.
  Unlike the movie version, the tests often went 
  on for a month, five or six such tests per day.
  Failing *any* of them meant that the kid was not
  the right one.
 
 hahahahahahahahaahaha.
 
 Dear, dear Barry.  I've seen to hit a sore spot.

You'd like to think that. But the reality is that, 
*unlike you*, I've actually *studied* with Tibetan
teachers who could *demonstrate* the basis on which
they can track beings through their incarnations.
I've been there, done that as they did it.  It's an
utterly fascinating, nigh unto mindblowing experience.

And yes, it makes *absolutely no sense* to someone
who is attached to Western ways of seeing and think-
ing, but damn! -- when you are there participating
in the process -- damn if it doesn't work.  Go figure.

 The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO 
 for weird and crazy things and here you are defending 
 probably one of the weirdest cults of them all: one 
 that chooses its leader based on some sort of 
 fairy tale about reincarnation!
 
 hahahahahahahahahaha.

Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.  

(Trivia question here...who can name the movie
that the above quote comes from?)  :-)

The issue, Shemp, is that you're laughing at a 
group of people who have more knowledge than you
do about a certain subject -- death, dying, and
reincarnation.  And you're laughing at them and
trying to put them down, when what a *smart* seeker 
would be doing is trying to figure out what they 
know, and whether it might be useful.

Did you notice, only a few days ago, how *quickly*
the subject of death, dying and reincaration *DIED* 
here on FFL?  The subject came up, a few TMers posted 
the few rumors that they'd heard about the subject 
from within the TM movement or from other Indian 
sources, and a couple of people posted a few more 
tangible things they'd learned from the Tibetan 
teachers with whom they'd actually studied.  And 
within a day the subject was no more.  Over.  Fini.  
Ignored as if it had never happened.

I thought it was a fascinating exchange. The *reason*
the subject died so quickly was -- in my opinion --
because the TMers realized how little they actually
*knew* about death and dying, and about how the
reincarnation process actually works.  They were able,
when the subject came up, to report only *rumors*
that they'd heard from *non-official* TM sources.
The discussion made it clear that *at no point* in 
their entire TM career had anyone sat them down
and explained to them what death and dying were all 
about, and how they could best prepare for it.

I guess my point is that when it comes to the process
of death, dying, and rebirth, you are *not* likely
to find out anything of worth by studying with anyone
from an Indian/Hindu background.  Whereas, if that is
one

[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
 shempmcgurk@ wrote:
snip
  How about the documentary Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion?
  
  If I'm wrong in my analysis, why not tell me where I'm wrong?
 
 Well, since you asked...

Note that Barry does not answer the question Shemp
asked but substitutes his own question, one that 
enables him to put Shemp down in his answer.

snip
 They've got a clue, in my opinion.  In my opinion, NO
 ONE I've *ever* encountered from an Indian/Hindu-based
 tradition does.  They are basically *clueless* as to 
 what happens when they die, and often as fearful of
 dying as the man on the street.  (Just look at 
 Maharishi hiding in his sterile room, afraid to even
 interact with other human beings...is this how some-
 one who is 'established in Brahman' or even unafraid 
 of death would act?)

Quite possibly, if he felt it was important for him to
stay alive as long as possible to complete a crucial
task.

Fear of death is far from the only reason to postpone
it as long as possible.  Some might even *prefer* to
die rather than hang around but feel a sense of
obligation to complete unfinished business.

 And to be even more in your face, death is going to 
 happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.  
 You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
 and probably closer to ten.

Shemp is going to die in his early 60s or 70s?

And you know this how?

 You're going to be lying 
 on your deathbed, still knowing as little about what 
 lies in front of you when your body breathes its last
 breath as you do today.  You'll be about to dive into
 an experience that is as much a mystery for you as it
 was the day you were born.  Whereas a lot of people who
 have actually studied with the tradition you like to
 make fun of (Tibetan Buddhism) will just be getting
 ready to perform a series of meditational exercises
 that they've been preparing for their whole lives.

Or one might be of the opinion that some people are so
afraid of mystery and the unknown that they spend
significant portions of their lives absorbing others'
speculations about the mystery and convincing themselves
they have the definitive map to it, as well as putting
out a great deal of effort in exercises these same folks
have told them will make the mystery less scary when
they have to face it.

snip
 I'm just sayin', Shemp...that the time before you die
 might be better spent figuring out what dying is all
 about than it would be trashing the only people on the
 planet who seem to be able to *teach* you what dying
 is all about.

Some may feel that the time before you die should be
spent in living that time fully, rather than becoming
preoccupied with what might happen after it.

It seems to me that the people who are *most* afraid
to die are those who spend inordinate amounts of time
trying to prepare themselves for it.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-08 Thread Rick Archer

on 4/8/06 8:09 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.
 
 (Trivia question here...who can name the movie
 that the above quote comes from?)  :-)

Buckaroo Banzai?
 
 And to be even more in your face, death is going to
 happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
 You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
 and probably closer to ten.

Why so soon? Is Shemp 75?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-08 Thread Vaj


On Apr 8, 2006, at 9:09 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO
  for weird and crazy things and here you are defending
  probably one of the weirdest cults of them all: one
  that chooses its leader based on some sort of
  fairy tale about reincarnation!
 
  hahahahahahahahahaha.

 Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.

 (Trivia question here...who can name the movie
 that the above quote comes from?)  :-)

 The issue, Shemp, is that you're laughing at a
 group of people who have more knowledge than you
 do about a certain subject -- death, dying, and
 reincarnation.  And you're laughing at them and
 trying to put them down, when what a *smart* seeker
 would be doing is trying to figure out what they
 know, and whether it might be useful.

 Did you notice, only a few days ago, how *quickly*
 the subject of death, dying and reincaration *DIED*
 here on FFL?  The subject came up, a few TMers posted
 the few rumors that they'd heard about the subject
 from within the TM movement or from other Indian
 sources, and a couple of people posted a few more
 tangible things they'd learned from the Tibetan
 teachers with whom they'd actually studied.  And
 within a day the subject was no more.  Over.  Fini.
 Ignored as if it had never happened.

Really typical of FFL--esp. since the alt.tm.med diaspora--since  
before there wasn't groups of obsessive posters redirecting the  
conversation back to you know what. Fill a list with one liners and  
Mrs.-Spock-who-learned-TM and there ain't room for much else. But  
that's the way fundies are I guess...

 I thought it was a fascinating exchange. The *reason*
 the subject died so quickly was -- in my opinion --
 because the TMers realized how little they actually
 *knew* about death and dying, and about how the
 reincarnation process actually works.  They were able,
 when the subject came up, to report only *rumors*
 that they'd heard from *non-official* TM sources.
 The discussion made it clear that *at no point* in
 their entire TM career had anyone sat them down
 and explained to them what death and dying were all
 about, and how they could best prepare for it.

Maybe they'll reincarnate in India. Meanwhile all the indians are  
busy reincarnating here :-).

Maybe that's why we were only given part of the puzzle: it's actually  
the biggest real estate heist in history. Mahesh will use the power  
of the Sri Yantra he stole from SBS to reincarnate him and his  
minions here and take over the US, meanwhile TMers will all  
unconsciously reincarnate to India and other third world countries.  
Voila! He'll have become king of the US. Then the Islamofascists will  
nuke India and the inner elect of M.'s entourage will rule from the  
US, safe and sound.


 I guess my point is that when it comes to the process
 of death, dying, and rebirth, you are *not* likely
 to find out anything of worth by studying with anyone
 from an Indian/Hindu background.  Whereas, if that is
 one your interests, you *are* likely to find out a
 little of how it all works by studying with a tradition
 that has delved into this subject for thousands of
 years, with some success.  That is, Tibetan Buddhists.

Well if they studied mantra shastra to its logical conclusion, they  
would eventually learn to consciously leave their bodies, but only a  
few are doing that. They think they have it all...or so they've been  
conditioned to believe.


 They've got a clue, in my opinion.  In my opinion, NO
 ONE I've *ever* encountered from an Indian/Hindu-based
 tradition does.  They are basically *clueless* as to
 what happens when they die, and often as fearful of
 dying as the man on the street.  (Just look at
 Maharishi hiding in his sterile room, afraid to even
 interact with other human beings...is this how some-
 one who is 'established in Brahman' or even unafraid
 of death would act?)

Interesting image. Howard Hughes as holistic yogi.


 And to be even more in your face, death is going to
 happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
 You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
 and probably closer to ten. You're going to be lying
 on your deathbed, still knowing as little about what
 lies in front of you when your body breathes its last
 breath as you do today.  You'll be about to dive into
 an experience that is as much a mystery for you as it
 was the day you were born.  Whereas a lot of people who
 have actually studied with the tradition you like to
 make fun of (Tibetan Buddhism) will just be getting
 ready to perform a series of meditational exercises
 that they've been preparing for their whole lives.

They also just might realize, if they died why still living, that  
human spans are rather short and that it might be helpful to open  
channels of communication with beings who are not only enlightened,  
but huge lifespans compared to ours. Humans aren't the only ones

[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 on 4/8/06 8:09 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.
  
  (Trivia question here...who can name the movie
  that the above quote comes from?)  :-)
 
 Buckaroo Banzai?

Give that man a kewpie doll.  :-)

One of the great cult films of all time.

  And to be even more in your face, death is going to
  happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
  You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
  and probably closer to ten.
 
 Why so soon? Is Shemp 75?

No particular reason, and it may not be true.  But
he IS going to die, and if he manages to live the
rest of his life as incurious and as unwilling to
exert *any* effort to learn anything new as he has 
during the last few years, he'll face that death as 
ignorant of what it's all about as he is today.

For some reason, that just struck me as sad this
morning, and so I wrote what I wrote.

Periodically, Shemp decides to trash the Dalai Lama
and Things Tibetan for -- as far as I can tell -- no
other reason than to be a troll and to be provocative.
He knows *nothing* about the Dalai Lama, nothing about 
Tibetan history, nothing about Tibetan Buddhism, and 
doesn't really *care* to learn anything or intend to
*ever* learn anything about it. Where this subject is
concerned, Shemp is what I termed a typical American 
-- Ignorant And Proud Of It.

I just got tired of putting up with his troll act
is all, and decided to call him on it.  If he actually
has any desire to *learn* something about Tibet and
its approach to death, dying, and reincarnation, I
will be happy to interact with him.  But for that to
happen, he has to do his homework, and read a book
called The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, by 
Sogyal Rinpoche, Patrick D. Gaffney, and Andrew Harvey.

If he does, I'll interact with him on the subject of
Tibet and its philosophies. If he doesn't, I'll continue 
to treat him as the ignorant adolescent he seems content 
to be, and to be until he dies.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-08 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 fairfieldlife@ wrote:
  on 4/8/06 8:09 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.
   
   (Trivia question here...who can name the movie
   that the above quote comes from?)  :-)
  
  Buckaroo Banzai?
 
 Give that man a kewpie doll.  :-)
 
 One of the great cult films of all time.

I mentioned that a Buckaroo comic is coming out, didn't I? Done by 
the guys who did the movie. The preview comic has a great editorial 
about the way in which Buckaroo was buried in Studio Limbo for so 
long.

RIghts, rights, who owns the rights? Actually, they're STILL not 
sure...

 
   And to be even more in your face, death is going to
   happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
   You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
   and probably closer to ten.
  
  Why so soon? Is Shemp 75?
 
 No particular reason, and it may not be true.  But
 he IS going to die, and if he manages to live the
 rest of his life as incurious and as unwilling to
 exert *any* effort to learn anything new as he has 
 during the last few years, he'll face that death as 
 ignorant of what it's all about as he is today.
 
 For some reason, that just struck me as sad this
 morning, and so I wrote what I wrote.
 
 Periodically, Shemp decides to trash the Dalai Lama
 and Things Tibetan for -- as far as I can tell -- no
 other reason than to be a troll and to be provocative.
 He knows *nothing* about the Dalai Lama, nothing about 
 Tibetan history, nothing about Tibetan Buddhism, and 
 doesn't really *care* to learn anything or intend to
 *ever* learn anything about it. Where this subject is
 concerned, Shemp is what I termed a typical American 
 -- Ignorant And Proud Of It.
 
 I just got tired of putting up with his troll act
 is all, and decided to call him on it.  If he actually
 has any desire to *learn* something about Tibet and
 its approach to death, dying, and reincarnation, I
 will be happy to interact with him.  But for that to
 happen, he has to do his homework, and read a book
 called The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, by 
 Sogyal Rinpoche, Patrick D. Gaffney, and Andrew Harvey.
 
 If he does, I'll interact with him on the subject of
 Tibet and its philosophies. If he doesn't, I'll continue 
 to treat him as the ignorant adolescent he seems content 
 to be, and to be until he dies.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes


 On Apr 8, 2006, at 9:09 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk
  shempmcgurk@ wrote:
 
 
   The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO
   for weird and crazy things and here you are defending
   probably one of the weirdest cults of them all: one
   that chooses its leader based on some sort of
   fairy tale about reincarnation!
  
   hahahahahahahahahaha.

Shemp, did you have something strange to eat before you wrote this? This is an 
odd 
reaction to the Dalai Lama and to a whole tradition that also uses the Vedas.  
Vedic 
traditions sound pretty wild, too, to most people - things like performing fire 
cermonies 
so that that energies coming from planets to your very own physiology will be 
deflected or 
enhanced.

  The issue, Shemp, is that you're laughing at a
  group of people who have more knowledge than you
  do about a certain subject -- death, dying, and
  reincarnation.  And you're laughing at them and
  trying to put them down, when what a *smart* seeker
  would be doing is trying to figure out what they
  know, and whether it might be useful.
 
snip
 
  I guess my point is that when it comes to the process
  of death, dying, and rebirth, you are *not* likely
  to find out anything of worth by studying with anyone
  from an Indian/Hindu background.  Whereas, if that is
  one your interests, you *are* likely to find out a
  little of how it all works by studying with a tradition
  that has delved into this subject for thousands of
  years, with some success.  That is, Tibetan Buddhists.
 
 
  They've got a clue, in my opinion.  In my opinion, NO
  ONE I've *ever* encountered from an Indian/Hindu-based
  tradition does.  They are basically *clueless* as to
  what happens when they die, and often as fearful of
  dying as the man on the street.And to be even more in your face, 
  death is 
going to
  happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
  You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
  and probably closer to ten. You're going to be lying
  on your deathbed, still knowing as little about what
  lies in front of you when your body breathes its last
  breath as you do today.  You'll be about to dive into
  an experience that is as much a mystery for you as it
  was the day you were born.  Whereas a lot of people who
  have actually studied with the tradition you like to
  make fun of (Tibetan Buddhism) will just be getting
  ready to perform a series of meditational exercises
  that they've been preparing for their whole lives.

Vaj wrote:
 Another thing Shemp might want to consider is that the Tibetan  
 diaspora was actually a blessing for this planet, rather than a  
 curse. But that would entail seeing the big picture.


Nice point about the Tibetan diaspora!

Re death and dying, I have found Yogananda's books of comfort.  I just started 
his Gita 
translation/commentary and it seems packed with all sorts of good information.  
Personally, I would find it comforting to have some trusty steps to perform as 
death nears.  
But, I also trust that the process will take care of itself, to a large extent. 
 All this 
meditating and yoga for all these years, trying to live a good life while 
having some fun, 
caring for  family. I am counting on a compassionate universe to include me and 
frankly 
everyone in the normal flow of transition.  I don't think we all have to feel 
responsible for 
learing how to manage each stage of life. The analogy that comes to mind is the 
fundy 
Christian idea that ONLY thru belief in Jesus can a person be saved.  But what 
about those 
who never heard of Jesus?  Same with death.  Such a  fundamental experience 
cannot 
possibly REQUIRE special training available in one part of the world.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Re death and dying, I have found Yogananda's books of 
 comfort.  I just started his Gita translation/commentary 
 and it seems packed with all sorts of good information.  

Haven't looked at it in decades. Thanks for the tip;
I'll check it out.

 Personally, I would find it comforting to have some 
 trusty steps to perform as death nears.  But, I also 
 trust that the process will take care of itself, to a 
 large extent.  All this meditating and yoga for all 
 these years, trying to live a good life while having 
 some fun, caring for  family. I am counting on a 
 compassionate universe to include me and frankly 
 everyone in the normal flow of transition.  

You've just *nailed* the difference between the Hindu
approach to dying and the Tibetan Buddhist approach
to dying. That is, underlying the Hindu approach to
dying is an assumption that the universe is sentient,
is compassionate, and that it has the ability to act 
on that compassion with regard to the living and the
dying. In the Hindu cosmology, the basic concept is
that the universe really runs the show when it comes 
to how and as what one will reincarnate. The Tibetan 
Buddhist approach is more based on free will.  As a 
seeker, you are responsible for your own enlightenment, 
or for the realization thereof. 

If you believe that the universe is really running
everything and you don't have all that much to say in
how and where and as what you incarnate next, where
is the impetus to study the mechanics of death, dying, 
and reincarnation?  You just die and hope for the best. :-)

On the other hand, if you firmly believe that there
are things that you *can* do to further your own
evolution and find a cool next incarnation in which 
*to* further it, then you might tend to study death, 
dying, and reincarnation rather thoroughly indeed.  
That seems to be what the Tibetan Buddhists did.  
Different strokes for different folks, that's all.

 I don't think we all have to feel responsible for 
 learing how to manage each stage of life. 

Nope. But for those who are interested, there is a 
wealth of valuable information available.  Whether
you are interested in that information or not 
probably has a lot to do with how much of a hand
you believe you have with regard to your own evo-
lution, and with regard to how much you think is 
*out* of your hands.

 The analogy that comes to mind is the fundy Christian 
 idea that ONLY thru belief in Jesus can a person be 
 saved.  But what about those who never heard of Jesus?  
 Same with death.  Such a fundamental experience cannot 
 possibly REQUIRE special training available in one part 
 of the world.

Did you hear anyone say it did?

It's a matter of predilection.  You can dive into the 
Bardo and just hope for the best, allowing the universe 
to do everything for you.  And it will.  The universe
is good about that. 

Other people with other predilections might want to 
get more involved, and have more of a say in where 
they're going next, and as what.   :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
  On Apr 8, 2006, at 9:09 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk
   shempmcgurk@ wrote:
  
  
The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO
for weird and crazy things and here you are defending
probably one of the weirdest cults of them all: one
that chooses its leader based on some sort of
fairy tale about reincarnation!
   
hahahahahahahahahaha.
 
 Shemp, did you have something strange to eat before you wrote this? 
 This is an odd reaction to the Dalai Lama and to a whole tradition 
 that also uses the Vedas.  Vedic traditions sound pretty wild, too, 
 to most people - things like performing fire cermonies so that that 
 energies coming from planets to your very own physiology will be 
 deflected or enhanced.

I have a sneaking suspicion Shemp doesn't buy into any
of this either...

snip
 But, I also trust that the process will take care of itself, to a 
 large extent.  All this meditating and yoga for all these years, 
 trying to live a good life while having some fun, caring for  
 family. I am counting on a compassionate universe to include me and 
 frankly everyone in the normal flow of transition.  I don't think 
 we all have to feel responsible for learing how to manage each 
 stage of life.

*Very* well said.

 The analogy that comes to mind is the fundy Christian idea that 
 ONLY thru belief in Jesus can a person be saved.  But what about 
 those who never heard of Jesus?  Same with death.  Such a  
 fundamental experience cannot possibly REQUIRE special training 
 available in one part of the world.

Sounds awfully elitist, doesn't it?

But at least the fundies' doctrine of salvation promises
that if you accept Jesus as your savior while you're
on earth, you are assured of eternal happiness after you
die--relieving you of the need to spend time and effort
going through elaborate training for death, when you
could be living your life to the fullest while you still
*have* it.

Tibetans are certainly entitled to have their beliefs
respected, as are the fundies.  But for Tibetan beliefs
to be used as an excuse to heap scorn on others, by
someone who isn't even Tibetan, strikes me as very
likely incompatible with what devout Tibetans would
find acceptable.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
 wrote:
 
  Re death and dying, I have found Yogananda's books of 
  comfort.  I just started his Gita translation/commentary 
  and it seems packed with all sorts of good information.  

 
 Haven't looked at it in decades. Thanks for the tip;
 I'll check it out.

 The Gita commentary by Yogananda that I have is a 2 volume set that was 
published only 
recently.  Don't know if it is different than any decades old volume you might 
have.
 
  Personally, I would find it comforting to have some 
  large extent.  All this meditating and yoga for all 
  these years, trying to live a good life while having 
  some fun, caring for  family. I am counting on a 
  compassionate universe to include me and frankly 
  everyone in the normal flow of transition.  
 
 You've just *nailed* the difference between the Hindu
 approach to dying and the Tibetan Buddhist approach
 to dying. That is, underlying the Hindu approach to
 dying is an assumption that the universe is sentient,
 is compassionate, and that it has the ability to act 
 on that compassion with regard to the living and the
 dying. In the Hindu cosmology, the basic concept is
 that the universe really runs the show when it comes 
 to how and as what one will reincarnate. The Tibetan 
 Buddhist approach is more based on free will.  As a 
 seeker, you are responsible for your own enlightenment, 
 or for the realization thereof. 
 
 If you believe that the universe is really running
 everything and you don't have all that much to say in
 how and where and as what you incarnate next, where
 is the impetus to study the mechanics of death, dying, 
 and reincarnation?  You just die and hope for the best. :-)
 
 On the other hand, if you firmly believe that there
 are things that you *can* do to further your own
 evolution and find a cool next incarnation in which 
 *to* further it, then you might tend to study death, 
 dying, and reincarnation rather thoroughly indeed.  
 That seems to be what the Tibetan Buddhists did.  
 Different strokes for different folks, that's all.
 
  I don't think we all have to feel responsible for 
  learing how to manage each stage of life. 
 
 Nope. But for those who are interested, there is a 
 wealth of valuable information available.  Whether
 you are interested in that information or not 
 probably has a lot to do with how much of a hand
 you believe you have with regard to your own evo-
 lution, and with regard to how much you think is 
 *out* of your hands.

I do think things here in the unviverse, including me,  run on autopilot and 
that the sense 
that I have free will is an illusion. This is based on  TM meditation - related 
experiences I 
have had, so I feel pretty convinced of this (while also recognizing that  
first, I probably 
have only experienced a tiny piece of the BIG picture, and second, the 
meditation 
technique that gives rise to this may do just that by changing the brain in 
specific ways 
related to the technique, but that is another discussion) Nevertheless, since 
most of the 
time I have the sensation/illusion that I am controlling my life, I have no 
choice but to 
keep on exerting my will and seeking!  And if in the midst of this world I DO 
have some 
free will, I am betting it has to do with evolution and related choices. So, I 
am curious. Is 
there some reading you could recommend?   Can't get to Dharamsala in person for 
at least 
a few years!
  
snip






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
  wrote:
  
   Re death and dying, I have found Yogananda's books of 
   comfort.  I just started his Gita translation/commentary 
   and it seems packed with all sorts of good information.  
  
  Haven't looked at it in decades. Thanks for the tip;
  I'll check it out.
 
  The Gita commentary by Yogananda that I have is a 2 volume 
 set that was published only recently.  Don't know if it is 
 different than any decades old volume you might have.

I don't know either. The one I had (and sadly no longer
have) was a clearly printed-in-India 2-volume set bought
at the SRF Temple in Encinitas back in the late 60s. 
The new books you refer to could be the same or different;
I don't know.

   Personally, I would find it comforting to have some 
   large extent.  All this meditating and yoga for all 
   these years, trying to live a good life while having 
   some fun, caring for  family. I am counting on a 
   compassionate universe to include me and frankly 
   everyone in the normal flow of transition.  
  
  You've just *nailed* the difference between the Hindu
  approach to dying and the Tibetan Buddhist approach
  to dying. That is, underlying the Hindu approach to
  dying is an assumption that the universe is sentient,
  is compassionate, and that it has the ability to act 
  on that compassion with regard to the living and the
  dying. In the Hindu cosmology, the basic concept is
  that the universe really runs the show when it comes 
  to how and as what one will reincarnate. The Tibetan 
  Buddhist approach is more based on free will.  As a 
  seeker, you are responsible for your own enlightenment, 
  or for the realization thereof. 
  
  If you believe that the universe is really running
  everything and you don't have all that much to say in
  how and where and as what you incarnate next, where
  is the impetus to study the mechanics of death, dying, 
  and reincarnation?  You just die and hope for the best. :-)
  
  On the other hand, if you firmly believe that there
  are things that you *can* do to further your own
  evolution and find a cool next incarnation in which 
  *to* further it, then you might tend to study death, 
  dying, and reincarnation rather thoroughly indeed.  
  That seems to be what the Tibetan Buddhists did.  
  Different strokes for different folks, that's all.
  
   I don't think we all have to feel responsible for 
   learing how to manage each stage of life. 
  
  Nope. But for those who are interested, there is a 
  wealth of valuable information available.  Whether
  you are interested in that information or not 
  probably has a lot to do with how much of a hand
  you believe you have with regard to your own evo-
  lution, and with regard to how much you think is 
  *out* of your hands.
 
 I do think things here in the unviverse, including me,
 run on autopilot and that the sense that I have free 
 will is an illusion. 

That's what I got from what you said. No *problem*
with this, by the way...it's just that I don't
happen to believe that myself.

 This is based on  TM meditation - related experiences I 
 have had, so I feel pretty convinced of this (while also 
 recognizing that first, I probably have only experienced 
 a tiny piece of the BIG picture, and second, the meditation 
 technique that gives rise to this may do just that by 
 changing the brain in specific ways related to the 
 technique, but that is another discussion) Nevertheless, 
 since most of the time I have the sensation/illusion that 
 I am controlling my life, I have no choice but to keep on 
 exerting my will and seeking!  

All I'm talking about is continuing to do so *after*
you die, as you transit from this life to the next.

 And if in the midst of this world I DO have some 
 free will, I am betting it has to do with evolution and 
 related choices. 

Well, I'd be more willing to say that it was because
free will is the essential nature of the universe.
But it's Ok to disagree on this, of course.  :-)

 So, I am curious. Is there some reading you could 
 recommend?   Can't get to Dharamsala in person for at 
 least a few years!

Me, either.  Get to Dharamsala, that is.  I'm not even
sure I'd want to go.

I think that the book I recommended to Shemp a couple
of posts ago is pretty good.  The Tibetan Book of
Living and Dying.  I think that's a very well-written
overview of the strange way that Tibetans look at death,
dying and the reincarnation process.

Caveat:  I do NOT know that any of this shit is true.
It *feels* true to me, based on my own subjective
experiences of having remembered the process of dying
and being reborn when working with a couple of Phowa
teachers.  But that might just be an illusion.  In
other words, your mileage may vary.   







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
 wrote:
snip
  I don't think we all have to feel responsible for 
  learing how to manage each stage of life. 
 
 Nope. But for those who are interested, there is a 
 wealth of valuable information available.  Whether
 you are interested in that information or not 
 probably has a lot to do with how much of a hand
 you believe you have with regard to your own evo-
 lution, and with regard to how much you think is 
 *out* of your hands.

Exactly.  Those who think they're doing their best
to make the most of their lives are likely to feel
fairly confident that if there is an afterlife,
they'll have earned a good spot in it through their
own efforts.  They'll see no need to prepare for
death in any way other than by living well.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
   wrote:
  I do think things here in the unviverse, including me,
  run on autopilot and that the sense that I have free 
  will is an illusion. 
 
 That's what I got from what you said. No *problem*
 with this, by the way...it's just that I don't
 happen to believe that myself.
 
  This is based on  TM meditation - related experiences I 
  have had, so I feel pretty convinced of this (while also 
  recognizing that first, I probably have only experienced 
  a tiny piece of the BIG picture, and second, the meditation 
  technique that gives rise to this may do just that by 
  changing the brain in specific ways related to the 
  technique, but that is another discussion) Nevertheless, 
  since most of the time I have the sensation/illusion that 
  I am controlling my life, I have no choice but to keep on 
  exerting my will and seeking!  
 
 All I'm talking about is continuing to do so *after*
 you die, as you transit from this life to the next.
 
  And if in the midst of this world I DO have some 
  free will, I am betting it has to do with evolution and 
  related choices. 
 
 Well, I'd be more willing to say that it was because
 free will is the essential nature of the universe.
 But it's Ok to disagree on this, of course.  :-)
 
  So, I am curious. Is there some reading you could 
  recommend?   Can't get to Dharamsala in person for at 
  least a few years!
 
 Me, either.  Get to Dharamsala, that is.  I'm not even
 sure I'd want to go.
 
 I think that the book I recommended to Shemp a couple
 of posts ago is pretty good.  The Tibetan Book of
 Living and Dying.  I think that's a very well-written
 overview of the strange way that Tibetans look at death,
 dying and the reincarnation process.
 
 Caveat:  I do NOT know that any of this shit is true.
 It *feels* true to me, based on my own subjective
 experiences of having remembered the process of dying
 and being reborn when working with a couple of Phowa
 teachers.  But that might just be an illusion.  In
 other words, your mileage may vary.

Barry, turns out I have that very book on my bedside table, got it in December 
and I have 
been eyeing it ever since while I indulge in novels (Embers by Marai and 
Saturday by 
McEwan are good).  The whole death and dying thing looks awfully complicated.  
Regarding the idea of free will, I would agree with you entirely except for 
experiences I 
have had (and sadly have not had iin quite some time).  The few experiences I 
have had, 
and I know many many others have too and have written books about etc etc, are 
unmistakable.  Life all happens, just happens and unfolds - kind of like a 
plant grows 
without any planning, so does a human act and think and feel.  My understanding 
is that 
even brain research is beginning to suggest that our volitional actions 
actually got 
triggered before we have had time to feel or ponder or choose.  This is all 
irrelevant until 
the experience occurs, but it is a real relief to experience, and  the shock of 
all shocks, let 
me tell you.  Perhaps just a distorted brain state, although I don't think so. 
But I agree with 
you that this appears to be a fundamental difference between Bhuddists and 
Hindus and 
goes beyond just using different words. I am all in favor of Bhuddism and all 
the 
compassion and good works and honesty that it encourages.  I am a Hindu type, 
tho.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  I think that the book I recommended to Shemp a couple
  of posts ago is pretty good.  The Tibetan Book of
  Living and Dying.  I think that's a very well-written
  overview of the strange way that Tibetans look at death,
  dying and the reincarnation process.

 
 Barry, turns out I have that very book on my bedside table, 
 got it in December and I have been eyeing it ever since 
 while I indulge in novels (Embers by Marai and Saturday 
 by McEwan are good).  

Cool. Synchronicity. That's how that book happened
for me, too. I bought it, put it on a shelf, and
didn't get around to reading it until years later.

 The whole death and dying thing looks awfully 
 complicated.  

Quite possibly. Just diving into it and trusting in
the will of God or whatever is definitely easier.  :-)

 Regarding the idea of free will, I would agree with you 
 entirely except for experiences I have had (and sadly 
 have not had iin quite some time).  The few experiences 
 I have had, and I know many many others have too and 
 have written books about etc etc, are unmistakable.  
 Life all happens, just happens and unfolds - kind of 
 like a plant grows without any planning, so does a 
 human act and think and feel.  

I've had those experiences, too.  I think the difference
is that I do not consider them any different than any
*other* experience I've ever had.  In other words, the
state of attention in which one is not the doer has no
more importance or weight for me than any other.  It's
Just Another Fleeting State Of Attention.

 My understanding is that even brain research is beginning 
 to suggest that our volitional actions actually got 
 triggered before we have had time to feel or ponder or 
 choose.  This is all irrelevant until the experience occurs, 
 but it is a real relief to experience, and  the shock of 
 all shocks, let me tell you.  

I think the keyword here might be in your use of the
word 'relief.'  IMO, some people are actively *searching*
for experiences that prove to them that they are not
in control, and that something bigger and greater than
they are *is* in control.  So (also IMO), when they have
the particular fleeting experience of not the doer,
they tend to interpret that experience as an ultimate
experience, a glimpse of some ultimate truth.  I don't
see it that way.  I treat such experiences, interesting
as they may be, just like any other experience.  They
come, they go...NONE of them is any more advanced or
higher than the other.

 Perhaps just a distorted brain state, although I don't 
 think so. But I agree with you that this appears to be 
 a fundamental difference between Bhuddists and Hindus 
 and goes beyond just using different words. 

*Incredibly* fundamental difference. 

 I am all in favor of Bhuddism and all the compassion and 
 good works and honesty that it encourages.  I am a Hindu 
 type, tho.

Cool.  I wish you well on that path.  I'm definitely
more of a Buddhist.  May we all get to the same party
location at some point, and get to sit down over a few
margaritas and talk about the incredibly different
routes we all took to get there.  :-)  :-)  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-08 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
   I think that the book I recommended to Shemp a couple
   of posts ago is pretty good.  The Tibetan Book of
   Living and Dying.  I think that's a very well-written
   overview of the strange way that Tibetans look at death,
   dying and the reincarnation process.
 
  
  Barry, turns out I have that very book on my bedside table, 
  got it in December and I have been eyeing it ever since 
  while I indulge in novels (Embers by Marai and Saturday 
  by McEwan are good).  
 
 Cool. Synchronicity. That's how that book happened
 for me, too. I bought it, put it on a shelf, and
 didn't get around to reading it until years later.
 
  The whole death and dying thing looks awfully 
  complicated.  
 
 Quite possibly. Just diving into it and trusting in
 the will of God or whatever is definitely easier.  :-)
 
  Regarding the idea of free will, I would agree with you 
  entirely except for experiences I have had (and sadly 
  have not had iin quite some time).  The few experiences 
  I have had, and I know many many others have too and 
  have written books about etc etc, are unmistakable.  
  Life all happens, just happens and unfolds - kind of 
  like a plant grows without any planning, so does a 
  human act and think and feel.  
 
 I've had those experiences, too.  I think the difference
 is that I do not consider them any different than any
 *other* experience I've ever had.  In other words, the
 state of attention in which one is not the doer has no
 more importance or weight for me than any other.  It's
 Just Another Fleeting State Of Attention.
 
  My understanding is that even brain research is beginning 
  to suggest that our volitional actions actually got 
  triggered before we have had time to feel or ponder or 
  choose.  This is all irrelevant until the experience occurs, 
  but it is a real relief to experience, and  the shock of 
  all shocks, let me tell you.  
 
 I think the keyword here might be in your use of the
 word 'relief.'  IMO, some people are actively *searching*
 for experiences that prove to them that they are not
 in control, and that something bigger and greater than
 they are *is* in control.  So (also IMO), when they have
 the particular fleeting experience of not the doer,
 they tend to interpret that experience as an ultimate
 experience, a glimpse of some ultimate truth.  I don't
 see it that way.  I treat such experiences, interesting
 as they may be, just like any other experience.  They
 come, they go...NONE of them is any more advanced or
 higher than the other.
 
  Perhaps just a distorted brain state, although I don't 
  think so. But I agree with you that this appears to be 
  a fundamental difference between Bhuddists and Hindus 
  and goes beyond just using different words. 
 
 *Incredibly* fundamental difference. 
 
  I am all in favor of Bhuddism and all the compassion and 
  good works and honesty that it encourages.  I am a Hindu 
  type, tho.
 
 Cool.  I wish you well on that path.  I'm definitely
 more of a Buddhist.  May we all get to the same party
 location at some point, and get to sit down over a few
 margaritas and talk about the incredibly different
 routes we all took to get there.  :-)  :-)  :-)

One word: Anejo.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 
  Cool.  I wish you well on that path.  I'm definitely
  more of a Buddhist.  May we all get to the same party
  location at some point, and get to sit down over a few
  margaritas and talk about the incredibly different
  routes we all took to get there.  :-)  :-)  :-)

 One word: Anejo.

Nine words:

Single-village mescal, made from 
wild (not-cultivated) agave.

:-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
 shempmcgurk@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:15 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:

 Look my source for any info I have on the DL are the 
movies 
  Seven
 years in Tibet, Kundun and that Snow Lion documentary.

 If I've got it wrong, blame Martin Scorcese and Brad 
Pitt...
   
   Or blame someone so stupid and lazy that he bases
   his bigoted rant against Tibetant Buddhism on the
   little he's seen in the movies.  :-)
  
  Are you saying that Martin Scorcese was wrong?
 
 No, merely that for cinematic reasons he shortened
 a month-long process into about three or four minutes
 of screen time and that you, like many equally-brain-
 dead, lazy Americans, thought that those three to four
 minutes portrayed the whole story.  :-)
 
 Also, that *as* a brain-dead, lazyass, incurious American, 
 you were content to *settle* for the movie version
 rather than looking into the reality, and exerting a 
 little effort to find out more.  :-)


I have the effort but not the attention-span.



 
  How about the documentary Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion?
  
  If I'm wrong in my analysis, why not tell me where I'm wrong?
 
 Well, since you asked...basically I think you're an 
 angry guy who has spent thirty years or so pursuing a 
 spiritual path that has never paid off for him in terms 
 of direct spiritual experience.



I meant regarding the Dalai Lama and HIS history, not mine, Barry.



 Therefore, you are jealous
 of and want to fuck with those whose paths *have* paid 
 off for them in terms of spiritual experience.





You mean the issue that I was addressing?  The spiritual 
experience of 1.5 million Tibetans who died unnecessarily?  The 
rest of the Tibetan culture unnecessary descimated?

Yeah, you're right, I'm really jealous.

But I'd still like you to tell me where my analysis is wrong 
(without you having to tell me which books to read to get the 
answers).  Can't you?





 What gets
 you off is trying to find things that'll enable you to put 
 down those who have had experiences you have not.
 
 In other words, your operating system is Aesopian:
 sour grapes.  You'd rather put down someone else's 
 experiences than do a little work to have your own.  :-)






I love your use of the :-) which you employ whenever you're 
criticizing someone and venting your spleen but want to still 
maintain that I'm a loosy-goosy cool intellectual living in France 
personae.

Why not just be honest and leave out the :-)?  That way, when you 
DO use the :-), it will actually mean something.







 
Read John Avedon's _In Exile From the Land of Snows_.
   
   Or, much better, read: The Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A 
   Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation, by Dalai Lama XIV, 
   Glenn H. Mullin, and Valerie Shepherd.
   
   This book lists the historical tests that were
   performed to verify that the kid named as the rein-
   carnation of the previous Dalai Lama really was.
   Unlike the movie version, the tests often went 
   on for a month, five or six such tests per day.
   Failing *any* of them meant that the kid was not
   the right one.
  
  hahahahahahahahaahaha.
  
  Dear, dear Barry.  I've seen to hit a sore spot.
 
 You'd like to think that. But the reality is that, 
 *unlike you*, I've actually *studied* with Tibetan
 teachers who could *demonstrate* the basis on which
 they can track beings through their incarnations.
 I've been there, done that as they did it.  It's an
 utterly fascinating, nigh unto mindblowing experience.



You're very special.



 
 And yes, it makes *absolutely no sense* to someone
 who is attached to Western ways of seeing and think-
 ing, but damn! -- when you are there participating
 in the process -- damn if it doesn't work.  Go figure.
 
  The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO 
  for weird and crazy things and here you are defending 
  probably one of the weirdest cults of them all: one 
  that chooses its leader based on some sort of 
  fairy tale about reincarnation!
  
  hahahahahahahahahaha.
 
 Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.  
 
 (Trivia question here...who can name the movie
 that the above quote comes from?)  :-)


The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai across the Eigth Dimension.


 
 The issue, Shemp, is that you're laughing at a 
 group of people who have more knowledge than you
 do about a certain subject -- death, dying, and
 reincarnation.



I totally concede that point to you, Barry, I am totally ignorant of 
that field.




  And you're laughing at them and
 trying to put them down,




Actually, I was laughing at you.

For the Tibetan Buddhists, I have the utmost respect.  For the Dalai 
Lama, I have a great deal of skepticism.  But that is mostly a 
function of the almost fanatical reverence

[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
  shempmcgurk@ wrote:
 snip
   How about the documentary Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion?
   
   If I'm wrong in my analysis, why not tell me where I'm wrong?
  
  Well, since you asked...
 
 Note that Barry does not answer the question Shemp
 asked but substitutes his own question, one that 
 enables him to put Shemp down in his answer.



And I am genuinely interested to know where I'm wrong.

I've given my sources where I got my info (which you all may very 
well be looking down your noses at but it still is the same one that 
99% of Americans got their info on this subject on).

Barry for some reason has a great interest in reincarnation and 
death and dying.  Fine, God bless him but it really is boring to me.

Do I believe in reincarnation?  Yes.  I thought about it for about a 
week when I was 18, decided that that was the reality of life and 
haven't much thought about it since.




 
 snip
  They've got a clue, in my opinion.  In my opinion, NO
  ONE I've *ever* encountered from an Indian/Hindu-based
  tradition does.  They are basically *clueless* as to 
  what happens when they die, and often as fearful of
  dying as the man on the street.  (Just look at 
  Maharishi hiding in his sterile room, afraid to even
  interact with other human beings...is this how some-
  one who is 'established in Brahman' or even unafraid 
  of death would act?)
 
 Quite possibly, if he felt it was important for him to
 stay alive as long as possible to complete a crucial
 task.
 
 Fear of death is far from the only reason to postpone
 it as long as possible.  Some might even *prefer* to
 die rather than hang around but feel a sense of
 obligation to complete unfinished business.
 
  And to be even more in your face, death is going to 
  happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.  
  You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
  and probably closer to ten.
 
 Shemp is going to die in his early 60s or 70s?
 
 And you know this how?
 
  You're going to be lying 
  on your deathbed, still knowing as little about what 
  lies in front of you when your body breathes its last
  breath as you do today.  You'll be about to dive into
  an experience that is as much a mystery for you as it
  was the day you were born.  Whereas a lot of people who
  have actually studied with the tradition you like to
  make fun of (Tibetan Buddhism) will just be getting
  ready to perform a series of meditational exercises
  that they've been preparing for their whole lives.
 
 Or one might be of the opinion that some people are so
 afraid of mystery and the unknown that they spend
 significant portions of their lives absorbing others'
 speculations about the mystery and convincing themselves
 they have the definitive map to it, as well as putting
 out a great deal of effort in exercises these same folks
 have told them will make the mystery less scary when
 they have to face it.
 
 snip
  I'm just sayin', Shemp...that the time before you die
  might be better spent figuring out what dying is all
  about than it would be trashing the only people on the
  planet who seem to be able to *teach* you what dying
  is all about.
 
 Some may feel that the time before you die should be
 spent in living that time fully, rather than becoming
 preoccupied with what might happen after it.
 
 It seems to me that the people who are *most* afraid
 to die are those who spend inordinate amounts of time
 trying to prepare themselves for it.



...or reading and writing about it, especially when it isn't even 
the subject at hand.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-08 Thread Marek Reavis

Comment below:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

**SNIP**

 I do think things here in the unviverse, including me,  run on
autopilot and that the sense 
 that I have free will is an illusion. This is based on  TM
meditation - related experiences I 
 have had, so I feel pretty convinced of this (while also recognizing
that  first, I probably 
 have only experienced a tiny piece of the BIG picture, and second,
the meditation 
 technique that gives rise to this may do just that by changing the
brain in specific ways 
 related to the technique, but that is another discussion)
Nevertheless, since most of the 
 time I have the sensation/illusion that I am controlling my life, I
have no choice but to 
 keep on exerting my will and seeking!  And if in the midst of this
world I DO have some 
 free will, I am betting it has to do with evolution and related
choices. 

**SNIP TO END**

Very well said.  This my experience/POV as well.  In the sense that
sadhana seems to be progressive, rather than an instantaneous
awakening, the best way I could describe it is a thinning of the ego.
 Can't say it's not there but pretty much the only time it's noticed
are those times when I feel annoyed.  When that occurs it doesn't
take much more than a moment's reflection for the feeling to subside.

This life seems to be little more than a point of view, a way of
interaction.  Things of interest draw my attention and other things don't.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 fairfieldlife@ wrote:
  on 4/8/06 8:09 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Laugh while you can, Monkeyboy.
   
   (Trivia question here...who can name the movie
   that the above quote comes from?)  :-)
  
  Buckaroo Banzai?
 
 Give that man a kewpie doll.  :-)
 
 One of the great cult films of all time.
 
   And to be even more in your face, death is going to
   happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
   You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
   and probably closer to ten.
  
  Why so soon? Is Shemp 75?
 
 No particular reason, and it may not be true.  But
 he IS going to die, and if he manages to live the
 rest of his life as incurious and as unwilling to
 exert *any* effort to learn anything new as he has 
 during the last few years, he'll face that death as 
 ignorant of what it's all about as he is today.
 
 For some reason, that just struck me as sad this
 morning, and so I wrote what I wrote.
 
 Periodically, Shemp decides to trash the Dalai Lama
 and Things Tibetan for -- as far as I can tell -- no
 other reason than to be a troll and to be provocative.




Actually, I've certainly trashed the Dalai Lam but have never 
trashed the Tibetan Buddhists (don't know enough about them to 
either trash or love 'em).

As for being a provocateur, yes, I readily admit to it, especially 
in this case.





 He knows *nothing* about the Dalai Lama, nothing about 
 Tibetan history, nothing about Tibetan Buddhism, and 
 doesn't really *care* to learn anything or intend to
 *ever* learn anything about it. Where this subject is
 concerned, Shemp is what I termed a typical American 
 -- Ignorant And Proud Of It.
 
 I just got tired of putting up with his troll act
 is all, and decided to call him on it.  If he actually
 has any desire to *learn* something about Tibet and
 its approach to death, dying, and reincarnation, I
 will be happy to interact with him.  But for that to
 happen, he has to do his homework, and read a book
 called The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, by 
 Sogyal Rinpoche, Patrick D. Gaffney, and Andrew Harvey.
 
 If he does, I'll interact with him on the subject of
 Tibet and its philosophies. If he doesn't, I'll continue 
 to treat him as the ignorant adolescent he seems content 
 to be, and to be until he dies.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
  On Apr 8, 2006, at 9:09 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk
   shempmcgurk@ wrote:
  
  
The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO
for weird and crazy things and here you are defending
probably one of the weirdest cults of them all: one
that chooses its leader based on some sort of
fairy tale about reincarnation!
   
hahahahahahahahahaha.
 
 Shemp, did you have something strange to eat before you wrote 
this? This is an odd 
 reaction to the Dalai Lama and to a whole tradition that also uses 
the Vedas.  Vedic 
 traditions sound pretty wild, too, to most people - things like 
performing fire cermonies 
 so that that energies coming from planets to your very own 
physiology will be deflected or 
 enhanced.




I don't particularly like any form of voodoo, tibetan or hindi.




 
   The issue, Shemp, is that you're laughing at a
   group of people who have more knowledge than you
   do about a certain subject -- death, dying, and
   reincarnation.  And you're laughing at them and
   trying to put them down, when what a *smart* seeker
   would be doing is trying to figure out what they
   know, and whether it might be useful.
  
 snip
  
   I guess my point is that when it comes to the process
   of death, dying, and rebirth, you are *not* likely
   to find out anything of worth by studying with anyone
   from an Indian/Hindu background.  Whereas, if that is
   one your interests, you *are* likely to find out a
   little of how it all works by studying with a tradition
   that has delved into this subject for thousands of
   years, with some success.  That is, Tibetan Buddhists.
  
  
   They've got a clue, in my opinion.  In my opinion, NO
   ONE I've *ever* encountered from an Indian/Hindu-based
   tradition does.  They are basically *clueless* as to
   what happens when they die, and often as fearful of
   dying as the man on the street.And to be even more in 
your face, death is 
 going to
   happen -- to YOU -- far sooner than you want it to.
   You personally are going to DIE within twenty years,
   and probably closer to ten. You're going to be lying
   on your deathbed, still knowing as little about what
   lies in front of you when your body breathes its last
   breath as you do today.  You'll be about to dive into
   an experience that is as much a mystery for you as it
   was the day you were born.  Whereas a lot of people who
   have actually studied with the tradition you like to
   make fun of (Tibetan Buddhism) will just be getting
   ready to perform a series of meditational exercises
   that they've been preparing for their whole lives.
 
 Vaj wrote:
  Another thing Shemp might want to consider is that the Tibetan  
  diaspora was actually a blessing for this planet, rather than a  
  curse. But that would entail seeing the big picture.
 
 
 Nice point about the Tibetan diaspora!
 
 Re death and dying, I have found Yogananda's books of comfort.  I 
just started his Gita 
 translation/commentary and it seems packed with all sorts of good 
information.  
 Personally, I would find it comforting to have some trusty steps 
to perform as death nears.  
 But, I also trust that the process will take care of itself, to a 
large extent.  All this 
 meditating and yoga for all these years, trying to live a good 
life while having some fun, 
 caring for  family. I am counting on a compassionate universe to 
include me and frankly 
 everyone in the normal flow of transition.  I don't think we all 
have to feel responsible for 
 learing how to manage each stage of life. The analogy that comes 
to mind is the fundy 
 Christian idea that ONLY thru belief in Jesus can a person be 
saved.  But what about those 
 who never heard of Jesus?  Same with death.  Such a  fundamental 
experience cannot 
 possibly REQUIRE special training available in one part of the 
world.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
snips 
wayback:  Regarding the idea of free will, I would agree with you 
  entirely except for experiences I have had (and sadly 
  have not had iin quite some time).  The few experiences 
  I have had, and I know many many others have too and 
  have written books about etc etc, are unmistakable.  
  Life all happens, just happens and unfolds - kind of 
  like a plant grows without any planning, so does a 
  human act and think and feel.  
 
 I've had those experiences, too.  I think the difference
 is that I do not consider them any different than any
 *other* experience I've ever had.  In other words, the
 state of attention in which one is not the doer has no
 more importance or weight for me than any other.  It's
 Just Another Fleeting State Of Attention.
.
 
  My understanding is that even brain research is beginning 
  to suggest that our volitional actions actually got 
  triggered before we have had time to feel or ponder or 
  choose.  This is all irrelevant until the experience occurs, 
  but it is a real relief to experience, and  the shock of 
  all shocks, let me tell you.  
 
 I think the keyword here might be in your use of the
 word 'relief.'  IMO, some people are actively *searching*
 for experiences that prove to them that they are not
 in control, and that something bigger and greater than
 they are *is* in control.  So (also IMO), when they have
 the particular fleeting experience of not the doer,
 they tend to interpret that experience as an ultimate
 experience, a glimpse of some ultimate truth.  I don't
 see it that way.  I treat such experiences, interesting
 as they may be, just like any other experience.  They
 come, they go...NONE of them is any more advanced or
 higher than the other.

Well, the first time it happened I felt as if I had been living my entire life 
in some sort of 
cosmic joke which produced the feeling that I had free will and my full 
attention on the 
details of life was essential. The relief was that I did not need to take 
things quite so 
seriously since the flow of it all would carry things along. Maybe these 
experiences are not 
special or more evolved, just odd brain functionings that have been deemed 
higher.  But 
my bet is that this is not so. I think there are higher states of consciousness 
and that 
MMY's basic delineation is a pretty good one.

snip 
  I am all in favor of Bhuddism and all the compassion and 
  good works and honesty that it encourages.  I am a Hindu 
  type, tho.
 
 Cool.  I wish you well on that path.  I'm definitely
 more of a Buddhist.  May we all get to the same party
 location at some point, and get to sit down over a few
 margaritas and talk about the incredibly different
 routes we all took to get there.  :-)  :-)  :-)


Yes, I look forward to that - here on earth, too. Someone in FF has to arrange 
this in the 
next decade!






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
snip
  In other words, your operating system is Aesopian:
  sour grapes.  You'd rather put down someone else's 
  experiences than do a little work to have your own.  :-)
 
 I love your use of the :-) which you employ whenever you're 
 criticizing someone and venting your spleen but want to still 
 maintain that I'm a loosy-goosy cool intellectual living in 
 France personae.

ROTFL!

*Nailed*.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
snip
  It seems to me that the people who are *most* afraid
  to die are those who spend inordinate amounts of time
  trying to prepare themselves for it.
 
 ...or reading and writing about it, especially when it isn't even 
 the subject at hand.

Yeah, but that doesn't matter.  The subject at hand
didn't present enough opportunity for putdowns, and
Barry desperately needed to do a scornful rant at
*somebody*.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-08 Thread Rick Archer

on 4/8/06 7:17 PM, wayback71 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Cool.  I wish you well on that path.  I'm definitely
 more of a Buddhist.  May we all get to the same party
 location at some point, and get to sit down over a few
 margaritas and talk about the incredibly different
 routes we all took to get there.  :-)  :-)  :-)
 
 
 Yes, I look forward to that - here on earth, too. Someone in FF has to arrange
 this in the 
 next decade!

We ought to have a FFL get-together sometime. How many of you who live out
of town would fly in for it?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

   First, What is your definition of insanity.??

It would be complex, because insanity is a complex
subject, but I'm pretty sure that one aspect of it
would include people who give themselves the titles
of kings and expect others to honor those titles.
It would also include those stupid enough *to* honor
these self-given titles.  :-)

   Second, it may not be sane, but you cannot ignore 
 the teachings completely.  That would be like throwing 
 the baby along with the bathwater.

Some babies deserve to be thrown out.  I'm with Shemp
on this one -- the *only* teaching I think was *ever*
of worth in the TM movement was how to do basic TM.
I think that's a good start for almost anyone, and
thus potentially valuable.  I think that everything
else, including the siddhis and the diet advice and
all the Vedic bullshit, is better thrown out.
   
   Third, A little bit of Snake-Oil might be 
 necessary to grease the wheels of a big movement.

Who said a big movement was necessary?  It has turned
into an entity mostly concerned with continuing itself,
not with helping others.

Also, anyone who can actually *justify* snake oil
(that is, lying) to further a goal they think is worthy
has already lost his soul.

   Fourth, Take what is good in all the masters and 
 leave out the irrelevant and the unnecessary.

There have never been any masters in history,
only people who longed to be subservient and thus
picked someone to be subservient to so that they
could call them master.

 TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:11:01 -
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]
 

 And you believe this is sane?
 

 
   
 -
 Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  
Great rates starting at 1cent;/min.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:49 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:26 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:
   
I think it's the whole shebang, a complete package...don't
need anything else...
  
   Well that's probably because you were taught to believe that.
 
  No, it's probably because YOU were taught that...

So were you. It was part and parcel of the TM teaching.
And furthermore, YOU still believe it, Shemp; it is part 
and parcel of what you say on this forum.  YOU are the one
who keeps saying that TM is all you need.  All we're saying
is that you were actually taught to believe that, something
you seem to have forgotten.  

  ...and believed it and
  therefore think that all other TMers must think the way you
 
 Not at all Shemp. When you see where the road stopped and see the  
 methods continue, it's pretty darn obvious.

The issue, as I see it, is that the TM approach to
spiritual development *IS* seriously limited, and in 
my opinion deals with primarily elementary school
aspects of the enlightenment process.  Knowing this,
and knowing that he didn't really have anything to 
offer *other* than elementary school topics, Maharishi
has since pretty much Day One endeavored to make
people comfortable with staying in elementary school
forever.

First, he made it off the program to read books
from other traditions or see other teachers.  This
is smart because if you never know that there is more
out there than the TM movement offers, you'll never
miss it.  

Second, Maharishi created a *very* strong TM is the
best and *all* other techniques and traditions are
lesser mindset in his students.  You see it here
*EVERY DAY*, whether it manifests itself as the pure
bigotry of a Bob Brigante or just the ignorance of
TMers who are just believin' what they were told. 
This mindset contributes to people being complacent 
about what they are taught by the TM movement and 
accepting of it as all that *needs* to be taught.  
They think, *Because* all other techniques and
traditions are lesser than TM, what could they 
possibly have to teach me?  They have so thoroughly
accepted the TM is best bullshit that it has become
a set of blinders for them, keeping them from even
*noticing* that there are huge aspects of the spiritual
process that TM doesn't even touch on in its teachings.

Third, Maharishi created an Inquisition-like arm of 
the TM movement, whose job it is to come down on those
for which the first two techniques don't work, and who
*were* curious enough to study other traditions. When
that happens, the first step is usually a proclamation,
declaring that IT'S NOT TM and will not be countenanced.
(Similar to the recent proclamation about diksha.) The
next step after that is to excommunicate anyone who still 
persists in this off the program activity.

At the end of the process, you have gotten rid of any-
one who had the first-hand experience of having learned 
things of value that the TM movement doesn't teach
(or in many cases, even know about), *and* you have
created an example for the remaining students of *what
happens to them* if they *dare* to learn anything but
the elementary school stuff fed to them by the TMO.

It's a pretty fascinating cycle to watch, even after
all these years.  The only thing I can really feel 
about it all is compassion for those who have submitted
to this stuff, and even more compassion for those who
claim it wasn't done to them, and that they became the
TM bigots they are all on their own.  I mean, compassion
IS in order; there are a lot of smart people on the TM
internet forums who really could have done something with 
their spiritual aspirations. But instead they *settled* 
for repeating elementary school over and over and over, 
in some cases for thirty years or more.  And now they 
spend their days lashing out at anyone who suggests *that* 
they settled for elementary school.  It's really a 
mindstate to be pitied, not reacted to.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

   First, What is your definition of insanity.??

It would be complex, because insanity is a complex
subject, but I'm pretty sure that one aspect of it
would include defining as insane people who give 
themselves the titles of kings and expect others to 
honor those titles. It would also include those 
stupid enough *to* honor these self-given titles.  :-)

   Second, it may not be sane, but you cannot ignore
 the teachings completely.  That would be like throwing
 the baby along with the bathwater.

Some babies deserve to be thrown out.  I'm with Shemp
on this one -- the *only* teaching I think was *ever*
of worth in the TM movement was how to do basic TM.
I think that's a good start for almost anyone, and
thus potentially valuable.  I think that everything
else, including the siddhis and the diet advice and
all the Vedic bullshit, is better thrown out.

   Third, A little bit of Snake-Oil might be
 necessary to grease the wheels of a big movement.

Who said a big movement was necessary?  That's the 
question that True Believers never seem to ask them-
selves.  Many spiritual organizations (for example,
Vipassana) have entirely volunteer organizations that
teach for free and end up teaching ten to twenty times
the number of people worldwide to meditate that the
TM organization does.  In my opinion, the TMO has turned
into an entity primarily concerned with perpetuating 
itself, not with helping others.  The goals of the
organization are long forgotten; all that matters now
is perpetuating the organization.

   Fourth, Take what is good in all the masters and
 leave out the irrelevant and the unnecessary.

IMO, there have never been any masters in history,
only people who longed to be subservient and thus
picked someone to be subservient to so that they
could call them master.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-07 Thread Vaj


On Apr 7, 2006, at 8:00 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 Or, much better, read: The Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A
 Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation, by Dalai Lama XIV,
 Glenn H. Mullin, and Valerie Shepherd.

 This book lists the historical tests that were
 performed to verify that the kid named as the rein-
 carnation of the previous Dalai Lama really was.
 Unlike the movie version, the tests often went
 on for a month, five or six such tests per day.
 Failing *any* of them meant that the kid was not
 the right one.

 It's an odd science, but as far as I can tell, a
 real one.

Glenn is an excellent translator, I'll get a copy of this one.


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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock jedi_spock@
  wrote:
  
 First, What is your definition of insanity.??
  
  It would be complex, because insanity is a complex
  subject, but I'm pretty sure that one aspect of it
  would include defining as insane people who give 
  themselves the titles of kings and expect others to 
  honor those titles.
 
 Who expects anyone to honor the rajah titles, even within the TMO?

Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though I don't
consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is still
giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to people
based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing since
the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much on money
all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and file.
 
  It would also include those 
  stupid enough *to* honor these self-given titles.  :-)
 
 
 Who DOES honor those titles outside the ceremonies of the club that 
 they belong to?

You're right, no-one ... but MMY has expressed genuine disappointment
that Hagelin was not elected president and at other rather bizarre
notions, so it seems he and others in the inner circle might take
these titles very seriously.

 Second, it may not be sane, but you cannot ignore
   the teachings completely.  That would be like throwing
   the baby along with the bathwater.
  
  Some babies deserve to be thrown out.  I'm with Shemp
  on this one -- the *only* teaching I think was *ever*
  of worth in the TM movement was how to do basic TM.
 
  I think that's a good start for almost anyone, and
  thus potentially valuable.  I think that everything
  else, including the siddhis and the diet advice and
  all the Vedic bullshit, is better thrown out.
 
 The Sidhis aren't of value? Amrit kalash isn't? Ayurveda isn't 
 sweeping the country in popularity?

Ayurved is popular in new agey and wholistic circles, but not sweeping
the nation IMO, and sweeping mainly in Chopra and Weil circles.  Amrit
kalash is sweeping the emerging diabetics section of the country.  The
issue for me isn't whether these alternative programs have potential
value, but how the tmo has managed them - the enlightenment centers in
malls plan is a joke and sweeping towards bankrupcy, but no-one dares
contradicts or gives reality checks to raja wynne or MMY.
 
 Third, A little bit of Snake-Oil might be
   necessary to grease the wheels of a big movement.
  
  Who said a big movement was necessary?  That's the 
  question that True Believers never seem to ask them-
  selves.  Many spiritual organizations (for example,
  Vipassana) have entirely volunteer organizations that
  teach for free and end up teaching ten to twenty times
  the number of people worldwide to meditate that the
  TM organization does.
 
 Vipassana has taught 3 million in this country?

This is a really interesting pt.  There has to be some middle ground
between being a effective (corporate-like) marketing org. (which is
necessary to actually reach people today) and being obsessed with
marketing driven by greed or culty evangelical zeal (which ultimately
undermines your original mission).  I think the tmo balanced it pretty
well in the 70s.

   In my opinion, the TMO has turned
  into an entity primarily concerned with perpetuating 
  itself, not with helping others.  The goals of the
  organization are long forgotten; all that matters now
  is perpetuating the organization.
 
 At this point in time, you may be correct. OTOH, the upcoming seminar 
 on TM and its effect on education and ADHD is expected to have over 
 100 people. True, the invited guests don't have to pay for their 
 lunch atthe Tucson Hilton, but even so, it's a good start.

Certainly lots of potential for marketing TM via specific areas like
high blood pressure, ADHD and others, but doesn't seem to be the
desire of the central org. who whole heartedly believe MMY and the TMO
are the only hope for world salvation right now and who want billions
to achieve it.  For 2 decades now these good little projects have
withered away for this reason.

 Fourth, Take what is good in all the masters and
   leave out the irrelevant and the unnecessary.
  
  IMO, there have never been any masters in history,
  only people who longed to be subservient and thus
  picked someone to be subservient to so that they
  could call them master.
 
 Which is why I still call my ole gung fu teacher sifu when I see 
 him, and why I call my former Japanese teacher Yamashita-sensei, 
 even though he hasn't been my teacher in over a year, when he calls 
 to say hi.

Sounds like you're giving them respect, which is good and different
from subservience.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread Vaj


On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:

 Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though I don't
 consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is still
 giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to people
 based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing since
 the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
 whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much on money
 all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and file.


It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck me  
that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's just  
that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the buying of  
titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually involves  
is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule a  
country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay enough  
money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be able  
to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. And  
every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.

It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to enter  
some religious order.

It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, holding  
fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're actually  
royalty.

It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I always  
knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
 
  Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though I 
don't
  consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is still
  giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
people
  based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing 
since
  the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
  whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much on 
money
  all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
file.
 
 
 It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
me  
 that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's 
just  
 that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the buying 
of  
 titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
involves  
 is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule a  
 country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
enough  
 money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
able  
 to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
And  
 every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.
 
 It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
enter  
 some religious order.
 
 It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, holding  
 fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're actually  
 royalty.
 
 It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
always  
 knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.

While I agree, I might point out that the SCA
(Society for Creative Anachronism) is a real
bargain if what you want is a fancy title. All
you do is make up your own, make sure that the
name could have existed during the time period
and geographical location your persona lived in
but didn't actually exist (in other words, you
can't use the names of real historical characters),
and voila, you're Lord Whatever of Wherever.

You can choose your own costume, too.  Most
of the crowns one sees in SCA gatherings are
*much* nicer and more tasteful than the TMO 
Burger King crowns.  

And all in all, this is just good fantasy fun,
more so because at the end of the weekend or
whatever, you just go home and resume your real
life don't have to pretend any more. Unlike the 
rajas, who are stuck with pretending that their
version of fancy titles and dressup *are* real
life.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread Marek Reavis

Comment below:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
 
  Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though I don't
  consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is still
  giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to people
  based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing since
  the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
  whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much on money
  all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and file.
 
 
 It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck me  
 that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's just  
 that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the buying of  
 titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually involves  
 is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule a  
 country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay enough  
 money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be able  
 to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. And  
 every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.
 
 It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to enter  
 some religious order.
 
 It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, holding  
 fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're actually  
 royalty.
 
 It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I always  
 knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.

**END**

The scam of titles and the nobility has always existed in the same
way.  It was always about property and affluence.  Queen Elizabeth of
England and all her courtiers and the Royal family all look just as
silly (to my eyes) as the current crop of TMO rajahs.  The only real
difference is that the House of Windsor has been in place within the
cultural context of England for so long (though not under that name)
that there is a presumed legitimacy that the TMO rajahs don't yet have
(if ever).  There are so many titled Europeans that they're
categorized as eurotrash.

Governmental authority only exists if you believe it does.  When that
belief gets shaky then the government starts imposing its authority by
other means.  Mao's statement that the only real power comes from the
barrel of a gun is the expression of the authority of a government
either on the way up or on the way down from recognized legitimacy.

Real authority is expressed by someone like Guru Dev who spent his
life in the solitude of the Self.  All the rest of this stuff is funny
hats. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 It's all been done before - think buying Indulgences. Was 
 that before or after the Inquisition? 

The practice of 'buying indulgences' was long before
the Inquisition.  The Cathars formed their sect in 
reaction to the selling of indulgences and the other 
corruption in the Roman Church.  The Inquisition was
then formed to deal with the Cathars.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
  
   Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though 
I 
 don't
   consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is still
   giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
 people
   based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing 
 since
   the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
   whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much on 
 money
   all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
 file.
  
  
  It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
 me  
  that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's 
 just  
  that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the buying 
 of  
  titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
 involves  
  is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule a  
  country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
 enough  
  money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
 able  
  to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
 And  
  every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.
  
  It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
 enter  
  some religious order.
  
  It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
holding  
  fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
actually  
  royalty.
  
  It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
 always  
  knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
 
 While I agree, I might point out that the SCA
 (Society for Creative Anachronism) is a real
 bargain if what you want is a fancy title. All
 you do is make up your own, make sure that the
 name could have existed during the time period
 and geographical location your persona lived in
 but didn't actually exist (in other words, you
 can't use the names of real historical characters),
 and voila, you're Lord Whatever of Wherever.
 
 You can choose your own costume, too.  Most
 of the crowns one sees in SCA gatherings are
 *much* nicer and more tasteful than the TMO 
 Burger King crowns.  
 
 And all in all, this is just good fantasy fun,
 more so because at the end of the weekend or
 whatever, you just go home and resume your real
 life don't have to pretend any more. Unlike the 
 rajas, who are stuck with pretending that their
 version of fancy titles and dressup *are* real
 life.  :-)


Er, it takes a LOT of work to get a title past M'Lord or M'Lady 
in the SCA. In theory, one must show that one would be able to make a 
living as a musician to be awarded a title for being a musician, as a 
blacksmith for being blacksmith, as an artisan for being an artisan, 
etc., and you must present your talents in a period-appropriate 
manner by performing period music or dance, or creating period 
instruments, or manufacturing reasonably period armor, etc. of the 
required quality.

For the fighting titles, you must beat all the other young bucks (or 
buckettes -there are have been a  few fighting baronesses and 
princesses in the SCA, and I believe one Queen in Her own right) at 
your level of the SCA, and for the title of king you must not only 
defeat all comers at the Kingdom level, but must commit to presiding 
over a certain number of SCA functions over the next year, many of 
which require a LOT of travel time, or expensive plane tickets, since 
a Kingdom usually covers several states and you gotta be willing to 
visit most of your Realm over the period of your reign.


BTW, your average Baron or King *does* live the SCA most of the time, 
outside of work. Not only do they have to attend those out-of-town 
royal functions, but in order to become king, one must become a 
master of broadsword, ax, mace, etc., by putting in just as many 
hours of practice as any karate blackbelt does to prepair for a 
tournement match.

And those damn rattan swords HURT, even through the padded armor.


--Sparrow the Incorrigible, Anno Societatis 8






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ 
 wrote:
 
  It's all been done before - think buying Indulgences. Was 
  that before or after the Inquisition? 
 
 The practice of 'buying indulgences' was long before
 the Inquisition.  The Cathars formed their sect in 
 reaction to the selling of indulgences and the other 
 corruption in the Roman Church.  The Inquisition was
 then formed to deal with the Cathars.

We haven't quite made it to the 'Cathars' stage yet?

Ingegred, look out... :-) 

JohnY







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread Sal Sunshine


On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:51 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 While I agree, I might point out that the SCA
 (Society for Creative Anachronism) is a real
 bargain if what you want is a fancy title. All
 you do is make up your own, make sure that the
 name could have existed during the time period
 and geographical location your persona lived in
 but didn't actually exist (in other words, you
 can't use the names of real historical characters),
 and voila, you're Lord Whatever of Wherever.

And you don't even have to pay a million.   They're big here in the US, I've come across a number of people involved with it in my weaving forays.

 You can choose your own costume, too.  Most
 of the crowns one sees in SCA gatherings are
 *much* nicer and more tasteful than the TMO 
 Burger King crowns.  

 And all in all, this is just good fantasy fun,
 more so because at the end of the weekend or
 whatever, you just go home and resume your real
 life don't have to pretend any more. Unlike the 
 rajas, who are stuck with pretending that their
 version of fancy titles and dressup *are* real
 life.  :-)

I'd like to see one of them try and get on a plane wearing those get-ups...

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Chain]

2006-04-07 Thread Jason Spock

I wrote about this to quite a few people. NoBody except Sir Rick Archer bothered to reply. I think this idea of Superiority has become a Dogma. The sooner the TM movement gets rid of this Chain [Golden Chain] the better off it will be. I think it's Voltaire who said, "Only fools rever the chains that bind them." TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:16:13 -Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes So were you. It was part and parcel of the TM teaching. And furthermore, YOU still believe it, Shemp; it is part and parcel of what you say on this forum. YOU are the onewho keeps saying that TM is all you need. All we're sayingis that you were actually taught to believe that, something you seem to have forgotten.The issue, as I see it, is that the TM approach tospiritual development *IS* seriously limited, and in my opinion deals with primarily "elementary school"aspects
of the enlightenment process. Knowing this,and knowing that he didn't really have anything to offer *other* than elementary school topics, Maharishihas since pretty much Day One endeavored to makepeople comfortable with staying in elementary schoolforever.First, he made it "off the program" to read books from other traditions or see other teachers. This is smart because if you never know that there is more out there than the TM movement offers, you'll never miss it. Second, Maharishi created a *very* strong "TM is thebest and *all* other techniques and traditions are lesser" mindset in his students. You see it here *EVERY DAY*, whether it manifests itself as the pure bigotry of a Bob Brigante or just the ignorance of TMers who are just "believin' what they were told." This mindset contributes to people being complacentabout what they are taught
by the TM movement and accepting of it as "all that *needs* to be taught." They think, "*Because* all other techniques and traditions are lesser than TM, what could they possibly have to teach me?" They have so thoroughly accepted the "TM is best" bullshit that it has become a set of blinders for them, keeping them from even *noticing* that there are huge aspects of the spiritual process that TM doesn't even touch on in its teachings.Third, Maharishi created an Inquisition-like arm of the TM movement, whose job it is to come down on those for which the first two techniques don't work, and who *were* curious enough to study other traditions. When that happens, the first step is usually a proclamation, declaring that "IT'S NOT TM" and will not be countenanced. (Similar to the recent proclamation about diksha.) The next step after that is to excommunicate anyone who still persists in this "off the program" activity.At the end of the
process, you have gotten rid of any-one who had the first-hand experience of having learned things of value that the TM movement doesn't teach (or in many cases, even know about), *and* you have created an example for the remaining students of *what happens to them* if they *dare* to learn anything but the elementary school stuff fed to them by the TMO.It's a pretty fascinating cycle to watch, even after all these years. The only thing I can really feel about it all is compassion for those who have submitted to this stuff, and even more compassion for those who claim it wasn't done to them, and that they became the TM bigots they are all on their own. I mean, compassion IS in order; there are a lot of smart people on the TM internet forums who really could have done something with their spiritual aspirations. But instead they *settled* for repeating elementary school over and over and over, in some cases for thirty years or more. And now they
spend their days lashing out at anyone who suggests *that* they settled for elementary school. It's really a mindstate to be pitied, not reacted to.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Chain]

2006-04-07 Thread authfriend

Once again, for some reason Barry's posts aren't
showing up on the Web site, so I'm quoting from
Jason's response.

[Barry wrote:]
 So were you. It was part and parcel of the TM
 teaching. And furthermore, YOU still believe it,
 Shemp; it is part and parcel of what you say on
 this forum.  YOU are the onewho keeps saying
 that TM is all you need.  All we're saying is
 that you were actually taught to believe that,
 something you seem to have forgotten.

(Not sure who the we is here.)

The sort of people who aren't very deep or rigorous
thinkers may well believe something simply because
it was taught to them; apparently that was the case
with Barry when he was in the movement, so he
imputes this tendency in a blanket fashion to anyone
who agrees with something taught by the movement,
because he can't conceive of any other way of
arriving at that particular point of view.

But of course that *isn't* the only way, not for
people who use their brains.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:15 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:47 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:
   
 It's all almost as silly as naming some 5-year-old peasant 
 boy the
 Dalai Lama because he can recognize a shoe that the 
recently-
 departed Dalai Lama once wore...
   
You're obviously not familiar with the real story if that's
what you believe!
   
The real story is pretty amazing.
  
   Okay, it was eyeglasses or some such nonsense.
  
   Look my source for any info I have on the DL are the movies 
Seven
   years in Tibet, Kundun and that Snow Lion documentary.
  
   If I've got it wrong, blame Martin Scorcese and Brad Pitt...
 
 Or blame someone so stupid and lazy that he bases
 his bigoted rant against Tibetant Buddhism on the
 little he's seen in the movies.  :-)




Are you saying that Martin Scorcese was wrong?

How about the documentary Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion?

If I'm wrong in my analysis, why not tell me where I'm wrong?




 
  Read John Avedon's _In Exile From the Land of Snows_.
 
 Or, much better, read: The Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A 
 Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation, by Dalai Lama XIV, 
 Glenn H. Mullin, and Valerie Shepherd.
 
 This book lists the historical tests that were
 performed to verify that the kid named as the rein-
 carnation of the previous Dalai Lama really was.
 Unlike the movie version, the tests often went 
 on for a month, five or six such tests per day.
 Failing *any* of them meant that the kid was not
 the right one.




hahahahahahahahaahaha.

Dear, dear Barry.  I've seen to hit a sore spot.

The man who takes every opportunity to hit the TMO for weird and 
crazy things and here you are defending probably one of the weirdest 
cults of them all: one that chooses its leader based on some sort of 
fairy tale about reincarnation!

hahahahahahahahahaha.





 
 It's an odd science, but as far as I can tell, a
 real one.


It's an odd science but as far as I can tell, a real one.  Now 
that's a doozy of a quote.  It speaks volumes all by itself.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock jedi_spock@
   wrote:
   
  First, What is your definition of insanity.??
   
   It would be complex, because insanity is a complex
   subject, but I'm pretty sure that one aspect of it
   would include defining as insane people who give 
   themselves the titles of kings and expect others to 
   honor those titles.
  
  Who expects anyone to honor the rajah titles, even within the 
TMO?
 
 Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though I 
don't
 consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is still
 giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to people
 based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing 
since
 the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
 whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much on 
money
 all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and file.




From day one, I always got the impression that the rank and file 
were treated like shit in the TMO.




  
   It would also include those 
   stupid enough *to* honor these self-given titles.  :-)
  
  
  Who DOES honor those titles outside the ceremonies of the club 
that 
  they belong to?
 
 You're right, no-one ... but MMY has expressed genuine 
disappointment
 that Hagelin was not elected president and at other rather bizarre
 notions, so it seems he and others in the inner circle might take
 these titles very seriously.
 
  Second, it may not be sane, but you cannot ignore
the teachings completely.  That would be like throwing
the baby along with the bathwater.
   
   Some babies deserve to be thrown out.  I'm with Shemp
   on this one -- the *only* teaching I think was *ever*
   of worth in the TM movement was how to do basic TM.
  
   I think that's a good start for almost anyone, and
   thus potentially valuable.  I think that everything
   else, including the siddhis and the diet advice and
   all the Vedic bullshit, is better thrown out.
  
  The Sidhis aren't of value? Amrit kalash isn't? Ayurveda isn't 
  sweeping the country in popularity?
 
 Ayurved is popular in new agey and wholistic circles, but not 
sweeping
 the nation IMO, and sweeping mainly in Chopra and Weil circles.  
Amrit
 kalash is sweeping the emerging diabetics section of the country.  
The
 issue for me isn't whether these alternative programs have 
potential
 value, but how the tmo has managed them - the enlightenment 
centers in
 malls plan is a joke and sweeping towards bankrupcy, but no-one 
dares
 contradicts or gives reality checks to raja wynne or MMY.
  
  Third, A little bit of Snake-Oil might be
necessary to grease the wheels of a big movement.
   
   Who said a big movement was necessary?  That's the 
   question that True Believers never seem to ask them-
   selves.  Many spiritual organizations (for example,
   Vipassana) have entirely volunteer organizations that
   teach for free and end up teaching ten to twenty times
   the number of people worldwide to meditate that the
   TM organization does.
  
  Vipassana has taught 3 million in this country?
 
 This is a really interesting pt.  There has to be some middle 
ground
 between being a effective (corporate-like) marketing org. (which is
 necessary to actually reach people today) and being obsessed with
 marketing driven by greed or culty evangelical zeal (which 
ultimately
 undermines your original mission).  I think the tmo balanced it 
pretty
 well in the 70s.
 
In my opinion, the TMO has turned
   into an entity primarily concerned with perpetuating 
   itself, not with helping others.  The goals of the
   organization are long forgotten; all that matters now
   is perpetuating the organization.
  
  At this point in time, you may be correct. OTOH, the upcoming 
seminar 
  on TM and its effect on education and ADHD is expected to have 
over 
  100 people. True, the invited guests don't have to pay for their 
  lunch atthe Tucson Hilton, but even so, it's a good start.
 
 Certainly lots of potential for marketing TM via specific areas 
like
 high blood pressure, ADHD and others, but doesn't seem to be the
 desire of the central org. who whole heartedly believe MMY and the 
TMO
 are the only hope for world salvation right now and who want 
billions
 to achieve it.  For 2 decades now these good little projects have
 withered away for this reason.
 
  Fourth, Take what is good in all the masters and
leave out the irrelevant and the unnecessary.
   
   IMO, there have never been any masters in history,
   only people who longed to be subservient and thus
   picked someone to be subservient to so that they
   could call them master.
  
  Which is why I still call my ole gung fu

[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  
  On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
  
   Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though 
I don't
   consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is 
still
   giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
people
   based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing 
since
   the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
   whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much 
on money
   all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
file.
  
  
  It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
me  
  that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's 
just  
  that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the 
buying of  
  titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
involves  
  is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule 
a  
  country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
enough  
  money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
able  
  to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
And  
  every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.
  
  It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
enter  
  some religious order.
  
  It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
holding  
  fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
actually  
  royalty.
  
  It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
always  
  knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
 
 
 It's all been done before - think buying Indulgences. Was that 
before
 or after the Inquisition? 
 
 JohnY


I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma 
and like things with a price on them.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  
  On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
  
   Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though 
I 
 don't
   consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is 
still
   giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
 people
   based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing 
 since
   the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
   whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much 
on 
 money
   all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
file.
  
  
  It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
me  
  that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's 
 just  
  that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the 
buying 
 of  
  titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
 involves  
  is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule 
a  
  country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
enough  
  money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
 able  
  to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
And  
  every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.
  
  It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
 enter  
  some religious order.
  
  It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
holding  
  fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
actually  
  royalty.
  
  It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
 always  
  knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
 
 
 In the case of the Rajahs, its more than that. The Millionaires 
 Course could be seen that way to a certain extent, but the Rajahs 
are 
 expected to actually *administrate* which is a big difference, 
IMHO.


Spare Egg, you should have been around at the time of Stalin.

You could have been his Minister of Justification.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread Jason Spock




   The TM-org lacks compassion.Had it been a little compassionate and treated it's members like family, it would not be having so many enemies today.ShempMcGurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:43:06 -Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp] From day one, I always got the impression that the rank and file were treated like shit in the TMO.  
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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Chain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Once again, for some reason Barry's posts aren't
 showing up on the Web site, so I'm quoting from
 Jason's response.
 
 [Barry wrote:]
  So were you. It was part and parcel of the TM
  teaching. And furthermore, YOU still believe it,
  Shemp; it is part and parcel of what you say on
  this forum.  YOU are the onewho keeps saying
  that TM is all you need.  All we're saying is
  that you were actually taught to believe that,
  something you seem to have forgotten.



I missed this post of Barry's altogether (so, Barry, if you're 
wondering why I didn't respond it's because I never saw it!).

Anyone have a message number for it so I can read it and respond?




 
 (Not sure who the we is here.)
 
 The sort of people who aren't very deep or rigorous
 thinkers may well believe something simply because
 it was taught to them; apparently that was the case
 with Barry when he was in the movement, so he
 imputes this tendency in a blanket fashion to anyone
 who agrees with something taught by the movement,
 because he can't conceive of any other way of
 arriving at that particular point of view.
 
 But of course that *isn't* the only way, not for
 people who use their brains.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread bob_brigante

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  Queen Elizabeth of
 England and all her courtiers and the Royal family all look just as
 silly (to my eyes) as the current crop of TMO rajahs.  



Yes, but the Brits don't get to enjoy it:

Great Britain is one of the world's foremost guilt-driven societies, 
says David Holmes, a psychologist who studies the phenomenon at 
Manchester Metropolitan University in Manchester, England. If people 
there seem too happy, he says, it's like an admission of guilt. When 
you're smiling, people think you've done something wrong.

http://tinyurl.com/oov8l Wall Street Journal 6Apr2006, page D1








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Chain]

2006-04-07 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
 
  Once again, for some reason Barry's posts aren't
  showing up on the Web site, so I'm quoting from
  Jason's response.
  
  [Barry wrote:]
   So were you. It was part and parcel of the TM
   teaching. And furthermore, YOU still believe it,
   Shemp; it is part and parcel of what you say on
   this forum.  YOU are the onewho keeps saying
   that TM is all you need.  All we're saying is
   that you were actually taught to believe that,
   something you seem to have forgotten.
 
 I missed this post of Barry's altogether (so, Barry, if you're 
 wondering why I didn't respond it's because I never saw it!).
 
 Anyone have a message number for it so I can read it and respond?

The original isn't *on* the Web site, Shemp (see the
first line at the top of my post).

But if you click the Up Thread box, far left at the
top of your screen, you can trace a thread back, and
you'll get to Jason's post, which quoted Barry's in
full. 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   
   On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
   
Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, though 
 I don't
consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is 
 still
giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
 people
based on their financial contributions, which has been ongoing 
 since
the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute to
whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much 
 on money
all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
 file.
   
   
   It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
 me  
   that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, it's 
 just  
   that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the 
 buying of  
   titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
 involves  
   is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule 
 a  
   country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
 enough  
   money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
 able  
   to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
 And  
   every now and then you can pay money to hang with various royals.
   
   It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
 enter  
   some religious order.
   
   It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
 holding  
   fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
 actually  
   royalty.
   
   It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
 always  
   knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
  
  
  It's all been done before - think buying Indulgences. Was that 
 before
  or after the Inquisition? 
  
  JohnY
 
 
 I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma 
 and like things with a price on them.


It may seem to quantify karma, but it doesn't work.

JohnY 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   
   On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
   
Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, 
though 
 I don't
consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is 
 still
giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
 people
based on their financial contributions, which has been 
ongoing 
 since
the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute 
to
whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much 
 on money
all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
 file.
   
   
   It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
 me  
   that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, 
it's 
 just  
   that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the 
 buying of  
   titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
 involves  
   is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule 
 a  
   country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
 enough  
   money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
 able  
   to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
 And  
   every now and then you can pay money to hang with various 
royals.
   
   It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
 enter  
   some religious order.
   
   It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
 holding  
   fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
 actually  
   royalty.
   
   It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
 always  
   knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
  
  
  It's all been done before - think buying Indulgences. Was that 
 before
  or after the Inquisition? 
  
  JohnY
 
 
 I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma 
 and like things with a price on them.


IIRC, Tibetan monks believe that writing out scripture is a religious 
activity. Some believe that *photocopying* scripture is a religious 
activity, and hence good karma.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   

On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:

 Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, 
though 
  I don't
 consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is 
  still
 giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority 
to 
  people
 based on their financial contributions, which has been 
ongoing 
  since
 the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who 
contribute to
 whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so 
much 
  on money
 all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank 
and 
  file.


It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just 
struck 
  me  
that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, 
it's 
  just  
that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the 
  buying of  
titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
  involves  
is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer 
rule 
  a  
country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
  enough  
money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to 
be 
  able  
to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, 
etc. 
  And  
every now and then you can pay money to hang with various 
royals.

It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money 
to 
  enter  
some religious order.

It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
  holding  
fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
  actually  
royalty.

It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
  always  
knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
   
   
   It's all been done before - think buying Indulgences. Was that 
  before
   or after the Inquisition? 
   
   JohnY
  
  
  I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of 
karma 
  and like things with a price on them.
 
 
 It may seem to quantify karma, but it doesn't work.




...but it's nice to be da King...




 
 JohnY








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   
   On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:48 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:
   
Those full-time in the tmo definitely honor the titles, 
though 
 I 
  don't
consider that insane.  My main problem here is that MMY is 
 still
giving out aristocratic titles and positions of authority to 
  people
based on their financial contributions, which has been 
ongoing 
  since
the 108 days.  I'm all for recognizing people who contribute 
to
whatever cause, but I think basing a spiritual mov't so much 
 on 
  money
all these yrs has undermined the heart value of the rank and 
 file.
   
   
   It's interesting that you mention this, the thought just struck 
 me  
   that this type of thing is going on constantly in the west, 
it's 
  just  
   that most probably never aware of it. I'm referring to the 
 buying 
  of  
   titles. It's actually quite a big business. What it usually 
  involves  
   is giving money to some foreign ruler, most who no longer rule 
 a  
   country or are simply members of royal families. If you pay 
 enough  
   money they will give you a title. This will authorize you to be 
  able  
   to wear certain regalia, add certain titles to your name, etc. 
 And  
   every now and then you can pay money to hang with various 
royals.
   
   It's also popular in Neo-Templar circles where you pay money to 
  enter  
   some religious order.
   
   It's quite expensive, but some people are really into it, 
 holding  
   fancy parties where they congregate and act like they're 
 actually  
   royalty.
   
   It just dawned on me that this is basically the same scam. I 
  always  
   knew it was a scam, but this puts it in perspective.
  
  
  In the case of the Rajahs, its more than that. The Millionaires 
  Course could be seen that way to a certain extent, but the Rajahs 
 are 
  expected to actually *administrate* which is a big difference, 
 IMHO.
 
 
 Spare Egg, you should have been around at the time of Stalin.
 
 You could have been his Minister of Justification.


Really? The Millionaires Course was for millionaires who wanted face 
time (more or less) with MMY. The Rajas are expected to work FOR the 
TM organization and they paid good money for that privledge. While 
you can make a case that they are so gung-ho in their beliefs that 
they are willing to pay money to be allowed to wear a TMO crown, 
there are certainly cheaper and easier ways to win accolades from 
underlings than paying big bucks to work for the TMO at executive 
level.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

  
   The TM-org lacks compassion.  Had it been a little 
compassionate and treated it's members like family, it would not be 
having so many enemies today.
 
 ShempMcGurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:43:06 -
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]
 

 From day one, I always got the impression that the rank and 
file were treated like shit in the TMO.
 

I often think that as well. However, there's a fine line between 
treating someone like family, and forcing your own beliefs about what 
is best for your brother onto your brother (speaking from ongoing 
personal experience). Perhaps the TMO goes too far in cutting the 
strings for the family, but if they went too far in the other 
direction, they'd be open to even MORE criticism.

I *do* think that retirement plans should be available for people.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis reavismarek@ 
 wrote:
   Queen Elizabeth of
  England and all her courtiers and the Royal family all look 
just as
  silly (to my eyes) as the current crop of TMO rajahs.  
 
 
 
 Yes, but the Brits don't get to enjoy it:
 
 Great Britain is one of the world's foremost guilt-driven 
societies, 
 says David Holmes, a psychologist who studies the phenomenon at 
 Manchester Metropolitan University in Manchester, England. If 
people 
 there seem too happy, he says, it's like an admission of guilt. 
When 
 you're smiling, people think you've done something wrong.
 
 http://tinyurl.com/oov8l Wall Street Journal 6Apr2006, page D1


Is this David S. Holmes? He once published a study on meditation that 
proved that meditation of any type doesn't work. I wrote an English 
paper that trashed his study but never got it published.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
[...]
  I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma 
  and like things with a price on them.
 
 
 It may seem to quantify karma, but it doesn't work.

The Midieval Roman Church would disagree.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

2006-04-07 Thread Sal Sunshine

How do you know?  All those people who bought them might be running around in heaven right now, having wild parties and boozing it up.

Sal

On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:53 PM, jyouells2000 wrote:

 > I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma 
 > and like things with a price on them.
 >

 It may seem to quantify karma, but it doesn't work.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
 [...]
   I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma 
   and like things with a price on them.
  
  
  It may seem to quantify karma, but it doesn't work.
 
 The Midieval Roman Church would disagree.

And they laughed all the way to (what became the future BOA) the bank 

JohnY






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes [Shemp]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 How do you know?  All those people who bought them might be running 
 around in heaven right now, having wild parties and boozing it up.
 
 Sal
 

Could be, but I wouldn't bet money on it :-) 

JohnY

 
 On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:53 PM, jyouells2000 wrote:
 
I love the idea of indulgences.  It quanitifies the field of karma
and like things with a price on them.
   
 
   It may seem to quantify karma, but it doesn't work.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 the four classes
  
 economy talk, 21.3.06 
  
 MAHARISHI:  ...Jyotish is the field of determining who will do 
 what.  And today this slogan `all men are equal` - all are equal 
 because everyone is cosmic. But in that sense the society is not 
 structured. Society is structured in `same education to all`. 
  
 Vedic structure, the constitution of the universe, right in the 
 beginning  the first syllable of the constitution it says, four 
 classes I am submitting, creating - four classes.
  
 Four classes well defined: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudras. 
 Wherever a man is the birthchart, Jyotish, will determine whether 
he 
 belongs to number one, number two, number three, number four. 
  
 It is the same thing determining what is the seed, whether it is a 
 mango seed or guava seed or orange seed. What seed is it, that is 
 the seed, put it to that soil and it will grow.
  
 So education should be on broad terms. Four kinds of education in 
 every country.
  
 It is for the government to see that those custodians of pure 
 knowledge (Brahmin), those who are born that way, they are 
educated 
 that way. 
 The others take recourse to knowledge and action, both together 
 being in the junction point, like the Kshatriyas. 
 Pure knowledge one side and knowledge mixed with action the other 
 side, Kshatriyas. 
 And action and action and action - Vaishyas, trades people, do the 
 trade, fill the wealth in the society. 
 And the others, creative people. Create, create the whole 
 engineering. The whole field of construction on the gross level, 
the 
 Shudras. 
  
 So Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras these are the four 
big 
 broad classification of profession. And that is on the basis of 
who 
 is born for what. The birthpoint is the soul point of determining. 
  
 A child is born to do what - whether he is born to be an 
 administrator, born to be an engineer, born to be the custodian of 
 the constitution of the universe. That means born to be the 
 custodian of pure knowledge or born to be knowledge and action 
 together  or born to be action or born to be a engineer. Engineer 
 creates. There is nothing and now he creates a mile of road in the 
 sky - this is engineering. 
  
 Where is the knowledge -  the knowledge is the same  where one 
 section of society has a complete knowledge, generation after 
 generation - a specialist in that economy: do everything without 
 doing anything. The other one takes subrecourse to action, the 
other 
 plunges into action, the other creates everything out of nothing - 
 Shudras.
  
 This is insight into the field of economy from the level of 
 responsibility of a government and on the level of education..








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

An elitist superstition codified
is no less of an elitist superstition.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 the four classes
  
 economy talk, 21.3.06 
  
 MAHARISHI:  ...Jyotish is the field of determining who will do 
 what.  And today this slogan `all men are equal` - all are equal 
 because everyone is cosmic. But in that sense the society is not 
 structured. Society is structured in `same education to all`. 
  
 Vedic structure, the constitution of the universe, right in the 
 beginning  the first syllable of the constitution it says, four 
 classes I am submitting, creating - four classes.
  
 Four classes well defined: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudras. 
 Wherever a man is the birthchart, Jyotish, will determine whether 
he 
 belongs to number one, number two, number three, number four. 
  
 It is the same thing determining what is the seed, whether it is a 
 mango seed or guava seed or orange seed. What seed is it, that is 
 the seed, put it to that soil and it will grow.
  
 So education should be on broad terms. Four kinds of education in 
 every country.
  
 It is for the government to see that those custodians of pure 
 knowledge (Brahmin), those who are born that way, they are 
educated 
 that way. 
 The others take recourse to knowledge and action, both together 
 being in the junction point, like the Kshatriyas. 
 Pure knowledge one side and knowledge mixed with action the other 
 side, Kshatriyas. 
 And action and action and action - Vaishyas, trades people, do the 
 trade, fill the wealth in the society. 
 And the others, creative people. Create, create the whole 
 engineering. The whole field of construction on the gross level, 
the 
 Shudras. 
  
 So Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras these are the four 
big 
 broad classification of profession. And that is on the basis of 
who 
 is born for what. The birthpoint is the soul point of determining. 
  
 A child is born to do what - whether he is born to be an 
 administrator, born to be an engineer, born to be the custodian of 
 the constitution of the universe. That means born to be the 
 custodian of pure knowledge or born to be knowledge and action 
 together  or born to be action or born to be a engineer. Engineer 
 creates. There is nothing and now he creates a mile of road in the 
 sky - this is engineering. 
  
 Where is the knowledge -  the knowledge is the same  where one 
 section of society has a complete knowledge, generation after 
 generation - a specialist in that economy: do everything without 
 doing anything. The other one takes subrecourse to action, the 
other 
 plunges into action, the other creates everything out of nothing - 
 Shudras.
  
 This is insight into the field of economy from the level of 
 responsibility of a government and on the level of education..








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 An elitist superstition codified
 is no less of an elitist superstition.

Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood based on the 
Jyotish chart...

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 
  the four classes
   
  economy talk, 21.3.06 
   
  MAHARISHI:  ...Jyotish is the field of determining who will do 
  what.  And today this slogan `all men are equal` - all are equal 
  because everyone is cosmic. But in that sense the society is not 
  structured. Society is structured in `same education to all`. 
   
  Vedic structure, the constitution of the universe, right in the 
  beginning  the first syllable of the constitution it says, four 
  classes I am submitting, creating - four classes.
   
  Four classes well defined: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudras. 
  Wherever a man is the birthchart, Jyotish, will determine whether 
 he 
  belongs to number one, number two, number three, number four. 
   
  It is the same thing determining what is the seed, whether it is 
a 
  mango seed or guava seed or orange seed. What seed is it, that is 
  the seed, put it to that soil and it will grow.
   
  So education should be on broad terms. Four kinds of education in 
  every country.
   
  It is for the government to see that those custodians of pure 
  knowledge (Brahmin), those who are born that way, they are 
 educated 
  that way. 
  The others take recourse to knowledge and action, both together 
  being in the junction point, like the Kshatriyas. 
  Pure knowledge one side and knowledge mixed with action the other 
  side, Kshatriyas. 
  And action and action and action - Vaishyas, trades people, do 
the 
  trade, fill the wealth in the society. 
  And the others, creative people. Create, create the whole 
  engineering. The whole field of construction on the gross level, 
 the 
  Shudras. 
   
  So Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras these are the four 
 big 
  broad classification of profession. And that is on the basis of 
 who 
  is born for what. The birthpoint is the soul point of 
determining. 
   
  A child is born to do what - whether he is born to be an 
  administrator, born to be an engineer, born to be the custodian 
of 
  the constitution of the universe. That means born to be the 
  custodian of pure knowledge or born to be knowledge and action 
  together  or born to be action or born to be a engineer. Engineer 
  creates. There is nothing and now he creates a mile of road in 
the 
  sky - this is engineering. 
   
  Where is the knowledge -  the knowledge is the same  where one 
  section of society has a complete knowledge, generation after 
  generation - a specialist in that economy: do everything without 
  doing anything. The other one takes subrecourse to action, the 
 other 
  plunges into action, the other creates everything out of nothing -
 
  Shudras.
   
  This is insight into the field of economy from the level of 
  responsibility of a government and on the level of education..
 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  An elitist superstition codified
  is no less of an elitist superstition.
 
 Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
 based on the Jyotish chart...

I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 

Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
astrologer willing to say that the person is a
Brahman based on his chart.

But all of this is just silly TB stuff. Who on 
earth really *gives a shit* whether Maharishi 
could have become Shankaracharya, other than a 
few TBs who would *like* to believe such fictions 
because the fantasy makes them feel more important?

To me the most fascinating thing is that the people
who do this -- the ones who try to construct some 
fantasy world in which Maharishi could have or 
should have been Shankaracharya -- are probably
considered by Maharishi *himself* to be lower than 
Shudras because they're not even Indian.  :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
   An elitist superstition codified
   is no less of an elitist superstition.
  
  Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
  based on the Jyotish chart...
 
 I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 
 
 Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
 on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
 on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
 claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
 only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
 astrologer willing to say that the person is a
 Brahman based on his chart.

And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position until 
his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position due to his chart 
certainly gives him an out that admitting that his family name was 
recognized as unworthy by the Jyotishi doesn't.


 
 But all of this is just silly TB stuff. Who on 
 earth really *gives a shit* whether Maharishi 
 could have become Shankaracharya, other than a 
 few TBs who would *like* to believe such fictions 
 because the fantasy makes them feel more important?

Perhaps.

 
 To me the most fascinating thing is that the people
 who do this -- the ones who try to construct some 
 fantasy world in which Maharishi could have or 
 should have been Shankaracharya -- are probably
 considered by Maharishi *himself* to be lower than 
 Shudras because they're not even Indian.  :-)


Again, perhaps...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
   
An elitist superstition codified
is no less of an elitist superstition.
   
   Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
   based on the Jyotish chart...
  
  I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 
  
  Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
  on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
  on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
  claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
  only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
  astrologer willing to say that the person is a
  Brahman based on his chart.
 
 And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
 until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
 due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
 that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
 Jyotishi doesn't.

I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
on the same thing.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:

 An elitist superstition codified
 is no less of an elitist superstition.

Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
based on the Jyotish chart...
   
   I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 
   
   Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
   on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
   on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
   claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
   only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
   astrologer willing to say that the person is a
   Brahman based on his chart.
  
  And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
  until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
  due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
  that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
  Jyotishi doesn't.
 
 I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
 pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
 be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
 ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
 a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
 on the same thing.


Heh. It just jives with what I have heard about why MMY couldn't become 
Shankaracharya. I 
mean, think about it: a birth-chart consists of 3 things: time of birth, place 
of birth and 
name.

Most people think of the time and place as being the most important for such a 
chart, but 
what if it was *name* and place that gave the jyotishi pause?

Caste is based on birth-chart suddenly makes sense, eh?









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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes


On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:22 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  
   An elitist superstition codified
   is no less of an elitist superstition.
 
  Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood
  based on the Jyotish chart...

 I don't think I get your point, if you had one.

 Seems to me that to claim that caste is based
 on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
 on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
 claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
 only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
 astrologer willing to say that the person is a
 Brahman based on his chart.

This style of analysis does exist in Jyotish, but it is primarily for  
determining mental inclinations in a very general way.


 But all of this is just silly TB stuff. Who on
 earth really *gives a shit* whether Maharishi
 could have become Shankaracharya, other than a
 few TBs who would *like* to believe such fictions
 because the fantasy makes them feel more important?

Or the fantasy that being a Shankaracharya really has any real  
importance anymore. In many ways the Mahamandaleshwaris are much more  
relevant and more practically important.


 To me the most fascinating thing is that the people
 who do this -- the ones who try to construct some
 fantasy world in which Maharishi could have or
 should have been Shankaracharya -- are probably
 considered by Maharishi *himself* to be lower than
 Shudras because they're not even Indian.  :-)

He was never even close to that post except by *buying* the post.  
Anyone who thinks otherwise is either fooling themselves or simply  
deluded.

-Vaj the mleccha



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes


On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:11 AM, sparaig wrote:

 And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position until
 his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position due to his chart
 certainly gives him an out that admitting that his family name was
 recognized as unworthy by the Jyotishi doesn't.

What if he hadn't completed his Jedi training?



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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes




   Only a Brahmin can become a Shankaracharya. All the 5 Shankaracharya posts are allowed only for Brahmin-born. My initator told me that Maharishi cannot become Shankaracharya although he deserves the post.Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:31:53 -0400Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes  What if he hadn't completed his Jedi training?  On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:11 AM, sparaig wrote: And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting that his family name was recognized as "unworthy" by the Jyotishi doesn't.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes



True. And you have to be established in Brahman and essentially a pandit of the tradition--in other words, you had to be a master of absolute and relative jnana or no light saber...so he's down on several counts.On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Jason Spock wrote:    Only a Brahmin can become a Shankaracharya.  All the 5 Shankaracharya posts are allowed only for Brahmin-born. My initator told me that Maharishi cannot become Shankaracharya although he deserves the post.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes




 I think His Majesty Dr. Nader is a Master of the Absolute, Relative and he's qualified for the Light-sabre as well. Looks like a Genuine guy.  Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:51:52 -0400Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes   True. And you have to be established in Brahman and essentially a pandit of the tradition--in other words, you had to be a master of absolute andrelativejnana or no light saber...so he's down on several counts.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes



On Apr 6, 2006, at 9:01 AM, Jason Spock wrote:    I think His Majesty Dr. Nader is a Master of the Absolute, Relative and he's qualified for the Light-sabre as well.  Looks like a Genuine guy.Unfortunately his master went over to the dark side a long time ago, so he can only have one of the red ones.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes




   Well, once in my dream he gave me a glass of white milk.!! There is something about Dr.Naderthat eludes explanation.! I was thinking of reviving Buddhism in india on a large scale. I felt that it is the only solution to the caste problem which india has perpetually. You know Dr.Ambedkar himself took to Buddhism. Unfortunately it did not take off as he had imagined.Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:  Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:06:55 -0400Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes Unfortunatelyhis master went over to the dark side a long time ago, so he can only have one of the red ones.  
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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

  I think His Majesty Dr. Nader is a Master of the Absolute,
 Relative and he's qualified for the Light-sabre as well.  
 Looks like a Genuine guy.

Well, that's your call, of course, and yours to make.
But I'm just tellin' ya...if the two of us (you and
me) ever get called upon to go up against Darth Vader, 
I'm going to let you be on someone else's squad. If 
I'm goin' into battle, I'd like to think that the
guys beside me are sane.  :-)

  
 Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:51:52 -0400
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes
 
 True. And you have to be established in Brahman and 
essentially a pandit of the tradition--in other words, you had to be 
a master of absolute and relative jnana or no light saber...so he's 
down on several counts.

   
 
   
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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes




 In other words, you're saying that I am insane and my judgement about Dr. Nader is wrong. Would you please elaborate on this.? What is it that you don't like in Dr. Nader.??  TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:26:52 -Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes Well, that's your call, of course, and yours to make. But I'm just tellin' ya...if the two of us (you and me) ever get called upon to go up against Darth Vader,I'm going to let you be on someone else's squad. If I'm goin'
 into battle, I'd like to think that the guys beside me are sane. :-)
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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
   An elitist superstition codified
   is no less of an elitist superstition.
  
  Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
  based on the Jyotish chart...
 
 I don't think I get your point, if you had one.

Seemed pretty clear to me.  If it's based on the
Jyotish chart and he wanted to be elitist about 
it, he could have claimed to be a Brahmin.

 Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
 on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
 on the caste of the birth parents)

That's the traditional way.  MMY appears to be
saying the traditional way is incorrect.

 is a way to
 claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
 only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
 astrologer willing to say that the person is a
 Brahman based on his chart.

Which MMY did not do.

 But all of this is just silly TB stuff. Who on 
 earth really *gives a shit* whether Maharishi 
 could have become Shankaracharya, other than a 
 few TBs who would *like* to believe such fictions 
 because the fantasy makes them feel more important?

As Lawson just pointed out, MMY explained in that
talk that he *could not* have become Shankaracharya.
If being a TB means you take what MMY says seriously,
no TB would suggest MMY could have become a
Shankaracharya.

Pay attention, Barry.

 To me the most fascinating thing is that the people
 who do this -- the ones who try to construct some 
 fantasy world in which Maharishi could have or 
 should have been Shankaracharya

Seems you're the only one here who's even
suggesting such a thing.




 -- are probably
 considered by Maharishi *himself* to be lower than 
 Shudras because they're not even Indian.  :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:

 An elitist superstition codified
 is no less of an elitist superstition.

Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
based on the Jyotish chart...
   
   I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 
   
   Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
   on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
   on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
   claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
   only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
   astrologer willing to say that the person is a
   Brahman based on his chart.
  
  And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
  until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
  due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
  that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
  Jyotishi doesn't.
 
 I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
 pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
 be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
 ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
 a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
 on the same thing.

What the holy *crap* are you talking about?

*You're* the guy claiming MMY is elitist.  Nor is
there any suggestion in that talk that he's trying
to justify anything.  You've just constructed a
whole new fantasy.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:

 An elitist superstition codified
 is no less of an elitist superstition.

Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
based on the Jyotish chart...
   
   I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 
   
   Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
   on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
   on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
   claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
   only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
   astrologer willing to say that the person is a
   Brahman based on his chart.
  
  And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
  until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
  due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
  that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
  Jyotishi doesn't.
 
 I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
 pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
 be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
 ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
 a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
 on the same thing.

P.S.: Just imagine what Barry would have said if
MMY had attempted to claim he *was* qualified to be
Shankaracharya.  But damn, he didn't, so Barry has
to find a way to dump on him for *not* doing so.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
 no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
   An elitist superstition codified
   is no less of an elitist superstition.
  
  Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
  based on the Jyotish chart...
 
 I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 
 
 Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
 on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
 on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
 claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
 only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
 astrologer willing to say that the person is a
 Brahman based on his chart.

And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
Jyotishi doesn't.
   
   I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
   pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
   be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
   ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
   a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
   on the same thing.
  
  Heh. It just jives with what I have heard about why MMY couldn't
  become Shankaracharya. I 
  mean, think about it: a birth-chart consists of 3 things: time 
  of birth, place of birth and name.
  
  Most people think of the time and place as being the most
  important for such a chart, but 
  what if it was *name* and place that gave the jyotishi pause?
 
 And what if it was the monkeys flying out of 
 Maharishi's butt that 'gave them pause.'  :-)
 
 Face it, dude...this is about YOUR need to feel
 important because you like to think of yourself
 as studying with someone who was qualified to be 
 Shankaracharya. There is no evidence that Maharishi 
 was *ever* considered qualified, or was *ever* con-
 sidered for the position, and there probably never 
 will be.  You'd just like to believe that it's true.

LOL!  Barry *really* loves this fantasy, don't he?

 It's OVER.

Over?  What's over?

 He wasn't qualified then, and he isn't
 qualified now. He went on and did other things with
 his life, some of them good, some of them not so
 good. His place in history (assuming he even has 
 one) will be based on those things that he actually
 did, not on anyone's fantasies about what he could
 have done.
 
 To his credit, he invented a simple beginner's 
 technique of meditation that was easy to learn
 and that could give people a taste of who they
 really are.  To his discredit, at a certain point
 he stopped promoting this technique, and in fact
 did almost everything in his power to make it
 unavailable except to an elite few.  

 Personally,
 I don't think the positivity of the former actions 
 outweighs the negativity of the latter actions,
 but that's up to the laws of karma to figure out, 
 not me.
 
 All in all, when it comes to traversing the Bardo 
 and having to deal with your own karma, I'd much
 rather be me than be Maharishi.  I think he's going
 to have a pretty rough ride.

Says Barry, not leaving it to the laws of karma to
figure it out, but going right ahead and doing it
himself, to his own deep satisfaction.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 What is it that you don't like in Dr. Nader.??

I don't so much dislike Tony Nader as I am underwhelmed
by him.  The level of respect I have for someone who
allows himself to be dressed up in flowing robes and a
crown and be called a king when he knows that he isn't
one is about the same level of respect I have for someone
who -- for *any* reason -- tries to justify the caste 
system.

In short, zero respect.  None.  Nada.  Rien.  Bupkus.

If you like 'King' Tony and can stomach all this crap, 
that's your business, not mine.  He's basically irrele-
vant to my life, and I like things that way.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 He was never even close to that post except by *buying* the post.  
 Anyone who thinks otherwise is either fooling themselves or simply  
 deluded.
 
 -Vaj the mleccha


So, Vaj, just how long did you work as mail-answerer for a 
Shankaracharya...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:11 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position until
  his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position due to his chart
  certainly gives him an out that admitting that his family name was
  recognized as unworthy by the Jyotishi doesn't.
 
 What if he hadn't completed his Jedi training?


Ihave it on good authority that his light sabre was of the highest 
quality.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 True. And you have to be established in Brahman and essentially a  
 pandit of the tradition--in other words, you had to be a master of  
 absolute and relative jnana or no light saber...so he's down on  
 several counts.
 
 On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Jason Spock wrote:
 
 
 Only a Brahmin can become a Shankaracharya.  All the 5  
  Shankaracharya posts are allowed only for Brahmin-born.
 
  My initator told me that Maharishi cannot become 
Shankaracharya  
  although he deserves the post.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 True. And you have to be established in Brahman and essentially a  
 pandit of the tradition--in other words, you had to be a master of  
 absolute and relative jnana or no light saber...so he's down on  
 several counts.
 
 On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Jason Spock wrote:
 
 
 Only a Brahmin can become a Shankaracharya.  All the 5  
  Shankaracharya posts are allowed only for Brahmin-born.
 
  My initator told me that Maharishi cannot become 
Shankaracharya  
  although he deserves the post.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
 wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
no_reply@ 
   wrote:
 
  An elitist superstition codified
  is no less of an elitist superstition.
 
 Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
 based on the Jyotish chart...

I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 

Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
astrologer willing to say that the person is a
Brahman based on his chart.
   
   And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
   until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
   due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
   that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
   Jyotishi doesn't.
  
  I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
  pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
  be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
  ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
  a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
  on the same thing.
 
 What the holy *crap* are you talking about?
 
 *You're* the guy claiming MMY is elitist.  Nor is
 there any suggestion in that talk that he's trying
 to justify anything.  You've just constructed a
 whole new fantasy.


*I* said that he justified his non-shankaracharyahood. Barry, who 
obviously didn't read the original post, thought I meant he justified 
it *explicitly*.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
 wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
no_reply@ 
   wrote:
 
  An elitist superstition codified
  is no less of an elitist superstition.
 
 Note that he justifies his own non-Shankaracharya-hood 
 based on the Jyotish chart...

I don't think I get your point, if you had one. 

Seems to me that to claim that caste is based 
on one's Jyotish chart (it's not...it's based
on the caste of the birth parents) is a way to
claim that one is *eligible* for a position open
only to Brahmans simply because one can find an
astrologer willing to say that the person is a
Brahman based on his chart.
   
   And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
   until his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position 
   due to his chart certainly gives him an out that admitting 
   that his family name was recognized as unworthy by the 
   Jyotishi doesn't.
  
  I honestly don't know which strikes me as more
  pathetic -- a man so insecure and vain as to still
  be hung up on events that happened over 50 years 
  ago, still trying to justify them in his mind, or 
  a follower of that insecure man who is hung up 
  on the same thing.
 
 P.S.: Just imagine what Barry would have said if
 MMY had attempted to claim he *was* qualified to be
 Shankaracharya.  But damn, he didn't, so Barry has
 to find a way to dump on him for *not* doing so.


All it really shows is that Barry hadn't read the original post, 
since it was MY interpretation that MMY had just justified his non-
shankaracharyahood based on the rumor I'd heard that once the jyotish 
started to read his chart, he put two and two together and realized 
someone with that family name from that part of India was low-caste 
by Indian law.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock jedi_spock@ 
 wrote:
 
  What is it that you don't like in Dr. Nader.??
 
 I don't so much dislike Tony Nader as I am underwhelmed
 by him.  The level of respect I have for someone who
 allows himself to be dressed up in flowing robes and a
 crown and be called a king when he knows that he isn't
 one is about the same level of respect I have for someone
 who -- for *any* reason -- tries to justify the caste 
 system.
 
 In short, zero respect.  None.  Nada.  Rien.  Bupkus.
 
 If you like 'King' Tony and can stomach all this crap, 
 that's your business, not mine.  He's basically irrele-
 vant to my life, and I like things that way.



Of course, King Tony knows that this is how the vast majority of 
humanity will feel, and yet he's willing to play dressup for his guru.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

2006-04-06 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip All in all, when it comes to traversing the Bardo 
 and having to deal with your own karma, I'd much
 rather be me than be Maharishi.  I think he's going
 to have a pretty rough ride.

I'd rather be me too...because I'm me. That being said, the eM-Dude 
has roasted his seeds a long time ago. It is evident in the sound of 
his voice, the sequences of words he uses, and his observations. 
Pretty unmistakable from my pov. eM-Dude is beyond the Bardo.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock jedi_spock@ 
  wrote:
  
   What is it that you don't like in Dr. Nader.??
  
  I don't so much dislike Tony Nader as I am underwhelmed
  by him.  The level of respect I have for someone who
  allows himself to be dressed up in flowing robes and a
  crown and be called a king when he knows that he isn't
  one is about the same level of respect I have for someone
  who -- for *any* reason -- tries to justify the caste 
  system.
  
  In short, zero respect.  None.  Nada.  Rien.  Bupkus.
  
  If you like 'King' Tony and can stomach all this crap, 
  that's your business, not mine.  He's basically irrele-
  vant to my life, and I like things that way.
 
 Of course, King Tony knows that this is how the vast majority of 
 humanity will feel, and yet he's willing to play dressup for his 
 guru.

Exactly. If he actually cared about Maharishi, 
he'd tell him the truth.  But he's too much of 
a wuss to do that.  So what is there to respect?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
 snip All in all, when it comes to traversing the Bardo 
  and having to deal with your own karma, I'd much
  rather be me than be Maharishi.  I think he's going
  to have a pretty rough ride.
 
 I'd rather be me too...because I'm me. That being said, the eM-Dude 
 has roasted his seeds a long time ago. It is evident in the sound of 
 his voice, the sequences of words he uses, and his observations. 
 Pretty unmistakable from my pov. eM-Dude is beyond the Bardo.

You are welcome to that opinion, but I do not
share it.  I have never felt -- even when I was
studying with him -- that Maharishi was 
enlightened, and still don't.  I think he's
gonna have a really bumpy ride.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes


On Apr 6, 2006, at 11:47 AM, sparaig wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:11 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
   And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position until
   his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position due to his  
 chart
   certainly gives him an out that admitting that his family name was
   recognized as unworthy by the Jyotishi doesn't.
 
  What if he hadn't completed his Jedi training?
 

 Ihave it on good authority that his light sabre was of the highest
 quality.

Which girl told you that?



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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
  snip All in all, when it comes to traversing the Bardo 
   and having to deal with your own karma, I'd much
   rather be me than be Maharishi.  I think he's going
   to have a pretty rough ride.
  
  I'd rather be me too...because I'm me. That being said, the eM-
Dude 
  has roasted his seeds a long time ago. It is evident in the sound 
of 
  his voice, the sequences of words he uses, and his observations. 
  Pretty unmistakable from my pov. eM-Dude is beyond the Bardo.
 
 You are welcome to that opinion, but I do not
 share it.  I have never felt -- even when I was
 studying with him -- that Maharishi was 
 enlightened, and still don't.  I think he's
 gonna have a really bumpy ride.


Far worse than anyone else you've studied with?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
   
   snip All in all, when it comes to traversing the Bardo 
and having to deal with your own karma, I'd much
rather be me than be Maharishi.  I think he's going
to have a pretty rough ride.
   
   I'd rather be me too...because I'm me. That being said, the eM-
   Dude 
   has roasted his seeds a long time ago. It is evident in the 
   sound of 
   his voice, the sequences of words he uses, and his 
   observations. 
   Pretty unmistakable from my pov. eM-Dude is beyond the Bardo.
  
  You are welcome to that opinion, but I do not
  share it.  I have never felt -- even when I was
  studying with him -- that Maharishi was 
  enlightened, and still don't.  I think he's
  gonna have a really bumpy ride.
 
 Far worse than anyone else you've studied with?

Most of the teachers I've worked with will
probably have a pretty smooth Bardo transit
and move on to nice places.  But if what you
are asking is whether I suspect that both 
Maharishi and Rama will have a tough time,
the answer is Absofuckinglutely.  








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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Apr 6, 2006, at 11:47 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:11 AM, sparaig wrote:
  
And yet, what if MMY *was* being considered for the position 
until
his chart was made? Justifying his lack of position due to 
his  
  chart
certainly gives him an out that admitting that his family 
name was
recognized as unworthy by the Jyotishi doesn't.
  
   What if he hadn't completed his Jedi training?
  
 
  Ihave it on good authority that his light sabre was of the highest
  quality.
 
 Which girl told you that?


So now he's a pedaphile also? Have you no shame?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: The four classes