[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > I'm very glad to hear that. > Really?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > So we don't get all confused here, Curtis, let's be > very clear at the outset that Ruth has said she's not > having emotional difficulties, and I'm taking her > word for it. What you and I are discussing below is a > sort of retrospective look at my original suggestion, > before Ruth had weighed in. Understood? > Crystal clear. You're freakin' hysterical Judy!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > > > So whenever a person seems upset about something they > > should seek mental health help? > > No, Curtis, only if they're having serious difficulties > dealing with their upset. (I'm pretty sure you could have > figured this out instead of erecting a straw man to knock > down.) > > To reiterate what I said elsewhere, what happened when I > read that particular lament of Ruth's is that I had what > felt like an intuitive flash that her upset was beginning > to be overwhelming to her. She denies this; fine, I'll > take her word for it and be relieved that it isn't. I know that this is atypical of me, but I am finding myself genuinely concerned about Judy. As I read these latest laments of hers what I find myself feeling is an intuitive flash that some internal upset is beginning to be over- whelming for her. Others may not notice, and may believe that this is just normal Judy, but what I'm getting is a more serious distress. It's such a strong flash, something that feels to me like intuition, something beyond the words. Otherwise, I would not suggest, as I am about to, that she seek medical help. This thing I'm feeling is more than "testiness." It's a more significant distress, something that seems to be building up in her and creating a state of blockage that may, I fear, overwhelm her completely and cause permanent damage. Therefore I beseech Judy to trust this intuition on my part and consult medical professionals with great haste. They have treatments that may help, and I hope that she takes advantage of them before this buildup becomes so intense that it can no longer be contained. I believe that the treatments are called colonics. Four or five good ones and this buildup within her may yet be averted before it explodes.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
So we don't get all confused here, Curtis, let's be very clear at the outset that Ruth has said she's not having emotional difficulties, and I'm taking her word for it. What you and I are discussing below is a sort of retrospective look at my original suggestion, before Ruth had weighed in. Understood? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > I'm getting a very disingenuous vibe here Judy. > > > None of the issues Ruth mentioned as concerns > > > have anything to do with John's practice. > > > > Oh, they certainly do, all the ones you mention, in > > fact. I have the impression he more often deals with > > people who've been deeply involved with the TMO, but > > I'd be very surprised if he doesn't also have clients > > who have been deeply involved with people who were > > deeply involved, even if they themselves weren't > > directly involved with the TMO. > > Because she wishes she and her friends hadn't started > TM she needs counseling? So whenever a person seems > upset about something they should seek mental health > help? No, Curtis, only if they're having serious difficulties dealing with their upset. (I'm pretty sure you could have figured this out instead of erecting a straw man to knock down.) To reiterate what I said elsewhere, what happened when I read that particular lament of Ruth's is that I had what felt like an intuitive flash that her upset was beginning to be overwhelming to her. She denies this; fine, I'll take her word for it and be relieved that it isn't. > For example,it is very clear that you are distraught > about what you call Turq and Vaj's "lies" here. > Would it be reasonable for one of us to respond to the > content of any of your posts by suggesting that you > seek medical help for this "problem." Sure, if that's what you really thought. (Not "medical," BTW, psychological. But "medical" makes it sound so much more extreme, doesn't it?) By the same token, if I were to respond that I'm not "distraught" (which I would, because I'm not), presumably you'd take me at my word, just as I've taken Ruth at her word, right? > This point is key. You have expressed that it is part > of your sense of fairness that causes you to react the > way you do to their writing. Perhaps is it also Ruth's > sense of fairness at play and she may not be suffering > from a psychological condition so severe that she would > need professional care for it. Perhaps. But what I got was more serious upset. Otherwise, I wouldn't have suggested, you know, that she get counseling. > > > These are all legitimate reasons to be as you spin > > > it "distraught" and I would term it, normally pissed > > > off for good reason. > > > > Except for the last, I agree. Did I suggest anywhere > > that they weren't legitimate reasons to be distraught? > > I think the question of their legitimacy is important. My answer: They're perfectly legitimate. (I went on to reiterate this, so your question had already been answered. By "Did I suggest anywhere," I was pointing out that you were reading something into what I said to Ruth that wasn't there at all.) > > Given what Ruth has been through with her husband > > and her friends, it wouldn't be normal for her *not* > > to be hurting. > > I don't get the same intensity from the phrases "I > wish" but this is a personal opinion. In my case, as I said, it was a strong flash of what felt like intuition, something beyond the words. > In any case the question is whether there is evidence > for a pathological level of hurt that goes beyond our > normal ups and downs of life and requires professional > help. I believe that you are either using a double > standard for people who disagree with the Maharishi > thing and yourself, or that this is all bullshittery to > cover up a simple FFL FU comment to someone who does > not share your beliefs. I've told you what it actually was, but you can believe whatever you wish. > > I don't know whether Ruth is having trouble dealing > > with her pain. > > Right, so the suggestion was premature and given your > posting relationship context more likely to be a > putdown than a friendly suggestion, right? You're welcome to calculate your own probabilities. I told you what the suggestion was based on. > If she isn't, more power to her. But > > if she is, counseling would be a very positive, > > healthy step. > > So every time someone expresses displeasure here about > anything in life we should all , as caring members of > FFL, suggest that they get professional help for their > "problem" just in case? Straw man, as I pointed out above. > > I'm a veteran of counseling myself. It was pre-TM, > > but I know how life can grind you down to the point > > where it becomes overwhelming. > > Smoke. > > > Ruth likes John. John has had a lot o
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never > > > > started. I wish my friends had never become parusha > > > > or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from > > > > others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > > > > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > > > > > > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate > > > > after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after > > > > school. > > > > > > You sound like maybe you're a candidate for John Knapp's > > > counseling services, Ruth. I'm serious; that's not snark. > > > You seem genuinely distraught. > > > > > > He apparently does counseling over the phone, BTW. > > > > I'm getting a very disingenuous vibe here Judy. None > > of the issues Ruth mentioned as concerns have anything > > to do with John's practice. > > Oh, they certainly do, all the ones you mention, in > fact. I have the impression he more often deals with > people who've been deeply involved with the TMO, but > I'd be very surprised if he doesn't also have clients > who have been deeply involved with people who were > deeply involved, even if they themselves weren't > directly involved with the TMO. Because she wishes she and her friends hadn't started TM she needs counseling? So whenever a person seems upset about something they should seek mental health help? For example,it is very clear that you are distraught about what you call Turq and Vaj's "lies" here. Would it be reasonable for one of us to respond to the content of any of your posts by suggesting that you seek medical help for this "problem." This point is key. You have expressed that it is part of your sense of fairness that causes you to react the way you do to their writing. Perhaps is it also Ruth's sense of fairness at play and she may not be suffering from a psychological condition so severe that she would need professional care for it. > > > She mentions she wishes she had never started and > > doesn't tell us why. Wishes her friends hadn't become > > unable to support themselves and ended up begging money > > from their friends causing the conflicted feelings when > > you care about someone who is shaking you down instead > > of working. She is upset that some of her friends took > > pseudo scientific advice for chronic diseases and I'm > > guessing that this is because they didn't work. Then > > she states basically our society's consensus belief > > that specific religions not be taught in schools. > > > > These are all legitimate reasons to be as you spin > > it "distraught" and I would term it, normally pissed > > off for good reason. > > Except for the last, I agree. Did I suggest anywhere > that they weren't legitimate reasons to be distraught? I think the question of their legitimacy is important. It is the unmanageable reactions to legitimate issues and strong reactions to illegitimate issues that send people to a mental health professional. It is important to understand how you are separating your reactions to things people write here, and hers. For the last one I should have added the word "public." > > > The physiological demonetization of people who > > challenge this teaching is a bit of a trend with > > you lately. > > Ruth is clearly hurting. How is it "physiological > demonetization" (did you mean "psychological > demonization"?) Yes, my fingers got to dancing a bit there. to make that observation and to > suggest appropriate counseling? > > Given what Ruth has been through with her husband > and her friends, it wouldn't be normal for her *not* > to be hurting. I don't get the same intensity from the phrases "I wish" but this is a personal opinion. In any case the question is whether there is evidence for a pathological level of hurt that goes beyond our normal ups and downs of life and requires professional help. I believe that you are either using a double standard for people who disagree with the Maharishi thing and yourself, or that this is all bullshittery to cover up a simple FFL FU comment to someone who does not share your beliefs. > > I don't know whether Ruth is having trouble dealing > with her pain. Right, so the suggestion was premature and given your posting relationship context more likely to be a putdown than a friendly suggestion, right? If she isn't, more power to her. But > if she is, counseling would be a very positive, > healthy step. So every time someone expresses displeasure here about anything in life we should all , as caring members of FFL, suggest that they get professional help for their "problem" just in case? > > I'm a veteran of counseling myself. It was pre-TM, > but I know how life can grind
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 12:43 PM, shukra69 wrote: > > > > > Here is the person who has no truth in him, when caught > > > in lies tells many more lies, accusing someone of having > > > a dishonest approach. Likewise Vaj who accuses others of > > > ad-hominen arguements and never hesitates to make them. > > > Shameless liar.Liar and shameless. > > > > TB Shukra who still doesn't know the difference from > > being accused of lies by dishonest people, the ignorant > > or the personality disordered and actual lies. It's a > > distinction of convenience we see a lot here. > > Actually there's a very easy way to tell the difference. Yes, there is. When a TM-approved "Chatty Cathy Doll" says "X is a liar," that is supposed to be definitive. :-) You know...the same way it's supposed to be definitive when TMers say "TM is not a religion" as they attend Lord Rama's birthday celebration and bow to him and make offerings to him. Or the way that claiming that TM is "unique" or that comtemplation is "dif- ficult" when they've never once tried another technique of meditation is definitive. Or the same way that saying "I can think for myself" and "I am not a parrot" is definitive as they repeat to a TM-teacher- turned-TM-critic the *exact* phrase that he taught thousands of people to say exactly the way they just said it. Or maybe the same way the Chatty Cathy doll says, "Mel Gibson is a Christian Bigot," based on a movie of his she never bothered to see. And who defends it to this day. Or maybe even the way claiming that the TM critics who still have 20-40 posts left for the week when she has "posted out" hysterically "countering" their few satirical posts is definitive when she says that THEY are "distraught." THESE are all examples of how to tell "definitively" who is "lying" and who is not. :-) :-) :-) HINT: *Saying* "I never lie" is not the same as never lying. Especially when dealing with people who have watched you lie by commission or omission for decades. As a "definitive" source of who is lying on this forum and who is not, Judy, you have all the credence of Dick Cheney.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "geezerfreak" wrote: > > Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post concert. > > Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post of yours > concerns Barry in one way or another. It's just Judy proving that she's not "distraught" by spending almost every post this week talking about me. :-) > And here you are offering to "match IQ's with Ruth anytime". > You have no idea how ridiculous you come off do you. You have to put the "IQ" quote into context, Geez. This year marks the 50th anniversary of Judy's graduation from Chatty Cathy class, where out of her *entire* class of Chatty Cathy dolls, Judy memorized the highest number of pre-programmed things to say whenever someone pulls the string. She upholds that tradition to this day. Pull the string and she repeats almost everything she was was ever taught by Maharishi and his teachers. That's a *form* of "IQ," although I am not con- vinced that the "I" in the phrase stands for intelligence. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
Mad as a March Hare Geez, and twice as nasty. Even in April. Some postulate rabies. I'm thinkin' its just in the DNA. Contrary to Mr. Carroll's speculation, she will be, should you return, just as raving mad in May. Can't call her bat-shit insane anymore. The bat lovers here pointed out how completely unfair that was to bat shit. Welcome back. Always enjoy it when I notice your return. There are actually some great book and film recommendations that pop-up here from time to time. I might have never read "Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff" had I not read FFL. The nuggets are worth the slurry. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "geezerfreak" wrote: > > Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post concert. > > Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post of yours concerns Barry > in one way or another. And here you are offering to "match IQ's with Ruth > anytime". > > You have no idea how ridiculous you come off do you. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > Just for fun, I'm going to "fisk" this post of Barry's. > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine wrote: > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 7:16 PM, geezerfreak wrote: > > > Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post concert. > > > > Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post of yours > > concerns Barry in one way or another. And here you are offering to > > "match IQ's with Ruth anytime". > > > > You have no idea how ridiculous you come off do you. > > In a word, no. > But it was a nice try, geez. :) > Welcome back! > > Sal > Thanks Sal. Like death and taxes Judy's obsession with Barry (and cluelessness about herself) seems inevitable. But I guarantee you one thing. She's quite happy to have her name mentioned in whatever context.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > And you certainly feel free to stick it in Knapp, > so why would you recommend him? Because you've said you liked him, because he's easily accessible, and because he's had experience dealing with people in distress that they attribute to their TM-related experiences. What I dislike about Knapp has nothing to do with his capabilities as a therapist. > For the record, such as it is, I am not distraught > nor desperate nor in need of counseling. I'm very glad to hear that.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never > > started. I wish my friends had never become parusha > > or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from > > others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate > > after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after > > school. > > You sound like maybe you're a candidate for John Knapp's > counseling services, Ruth. I'm serious; that's not snark. > You seem genuinely distraught. > > He apparently does counseling over the phone, BTW. Judy goes on to say in another post: "Thanks, Raunch. You don't even have to *like* a person to feel empathy for them. Goodness knows I've been tough on Ruth in other respects. But this time, I got a sense of almost desperation in her lament that I hadn't before." Maybe I should take you at face value here as it is hard to read someone's emotions from what they say on the internet. And Raunchy believes you are sincere. But there is a tone in your posts in this thread that feels patronizing to me and you do have a number of posts that make assumptions about what I think or feel. I am sorry to say that I question your professed empathy given the ease with which you wield the knife. And you certainly feel free to stick it in Knapp, so why would you recommend him? For the record, such as it is, I am not distraught nor desperate nor in need of counseling. If I was, I trust I would recognize the need and deal with it. I do harbor resentment with the cult of TM that has negatively effected my friends, as Raunchy recalled. But irritation with the TMO is not a psychological problem. There is nothing wrong with getting pissed off at what pisses you off.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine wrote: > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 7:16 PM, geezerfreak wrote: > > > Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post concert. > > > > Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post > > of yours concerns Barry in one way or another. And here > > you are offering to "match IQ's with Ruth anytime". > > > > You have no idea how ridiculous you come off do you. > > In a word, no. > But it was a nice try, geez. :) Speaking of being ridiculous, this is what I was responding to from Barry: "Ruth is *just* as potentially intelligent (and demonstrably a great deal more intelligent) as Judy." Overlooking Barry's tortured syntax, what's ridiculous is Barry, of all people, attempting to assert which of us is more intelligent. And even *more* ridiculous are Sal and Geez very carefully ignoring Barry's ridiculousness and pretending I made my "offer" in a vacuum.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 5, 2009, at 7:16 PM, geezerfreak wrote: Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post concert. Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post of yours concerns Barry in one way or another. And here you are offering to "match IQ's with Ruth anytime". You have no idea how ridiculous you come off do you. In a word, no. But it was a nice try, geez. :) Welcome back! Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "geezerfreak" wrote: > > Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post > concert. > > Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post > of yours concerns Barry in one way or another. Geez, perhaps you missed the fact that I was responding to a post in which Barry was attacking me--again. It's odd that you don't seem to notice how many of his posts concern me in one way or another.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > Judy, When I read your post to Ruth I immediately > recognized your intention to reach out to her out as > one human being to another in the spirit of compassion. > You even shared something personal about yourself, > about not being wired to have "faith" and having made > peace with your inability to cultivate it. It's amazing > how tone deaf Curtis, Barry and Sal were to the genuine > concern you had for Ruth. Their collective knee-jerk > response was unwarranted. One would hope they know it > is possible to disagree with someone, like them and > still have empathy for them. Thanks, Raunch. You don't even have to *like* a person to feel empathy for them. Goodness knows I've been tough on Ruth in other respects. But this time, I got a sense of almost desperation in her lament that I hadn't before. I hope I'm wrong. I hope she's not in as much pain as I intuited. Although in a very different context, I've been there, and I don't wish it on anybody. Same with Shemp, whom I don't care for much either, a week or so ago. And Kirk as well. Good for all three of them for being willing to share their unhappiness. That's healthy; it's a sign they're not going to let life get the better of them.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
Figured I'd drop in today to see what's going on post concert. Nothing much changes with you Judy. Nearly every post of yours concerns Barry in one way or another. And here you are offering to "match IQ's with Ruth anytime". You have no idea how ridiculous you come off do you. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > Just for fun, I'm going to "fisk" this post of Barry's. > > I'm going to start with something from the end of his > post, because it's so hilarious: > > > Believe something other than what Judy believes, > > and there is something WRONG with you. > > Here's a question to ponder: If I thought there > was something WRONG with Ruth because she believes > something other than what I believe, would I > recommend that in order to "fix" it, she seek > counseling from *JOHN KNAPP*?? > > Barry gets so totally caught up in his elaborate > fantasies that he's incapable of taking a step back > to determine whether what he's saying makes the > tiniest bit of sense. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > Judy's ENTIRE position can be summed up in > > her own words below: > > > > Trusting your experience is fine. Having an aha > > > moment in which you know you don't believe is fine. > > > > > > What's *not* fine, IMHO, is including in that aha > > > moment of knowledge about your own lack of belief > > > the "knowledge" that other people are "feeding off > > > of each other's hysteria." > > > > > > That's just a way to make yourself feel better > > > about your inability to have good results. > > > > There is a phrase to describe this position. > > It is called "Blame the victim." > > As the rest of my post made clear (which Barry > carefully did not quote because it made nonsense of > his accusations), what I was "blaming" Ruth for is > taking the position (which in any other context Barry > would find an outrage) that if *she* wasn't having > experiences, it must mean that others weren't either > and were just "feeding off of each other's hysteria." > (That's a direct quote from Ruth's post, BTW.) > > I explicitly said in the rest of my post that we > *don't know* why some people have good results from > TM and some don't. But here's Barry, making stuff up > out of whole cloth: > > > Ruth's "problem" -- her "failure" -- is that > > she was "incapable of having good results." > > I did not say that her *inability* to have good > results was either a "problem" or a "failure." Barry > made that up. > > > Whereas Judy was. And as all of the TBs she > > so egomaniacally seeks to represent supposedly > > were capable of having. > > I don't "seek to represent" anybody. And I'm speaking > of only those who have *reported* having good results. > > > The issue here is ELITISM, pure and simple. > > Judy and those who believe as she does are > > the "elite." They were "evolved" enough to > > appreciate the great gifts that Maharishi > > sold them and "capable" of "having good > > results." Ruth, ignoramus and "incapable" > > as she is, was not. > > Made up out of whole cloth. Again, as I said, > we *don't know* why some have good results and > others don't. > > (But I always get a chuckle when Barry rants > about "elitism," given that his positions here > are by far the most elitist of anyone on FFL.) > > > THAT is the message that Judy is trying to > > convey. Curtis is being easy on the bitch. > > I have no such reservations. > > > > Judy's ENTIRE position is that anyone who does > > not agree with her as to 1) what Maharishi > > "really meant" when he said things, 2) what > > his "message" really was, 3) what the "benefit" > > of that message was, and 4) pretty much anything > > else she has an opinion on is a LOSER. They are > > somehow LESS than she is, "incapable" of seeing > > how profound the things she believes are pro- > > found "really" are. > > Made up out of whole cloth. I have never, *ever* > taken this position, nor do I believe it. > > > Curtis is being *kind* to Judy here, treating > > her as if there is still a human being "in there > > somewhere" that could possibly respond to being > > treated like one. I see no such human being. I > > see only an automaton, one who repeats ( almost > > verbatim, like the uncreative parrot she is ) > > The Things She's Been Told Are Truth. > > Also made up out of whole cloth. I do sometimes use > TM-speak when it seems to me to clearly express > what I want to get across, but much more often I > use my own words. Barry knows this. He also knows > I have no inhibitions about disagreeing with Things > I've Been Told Are Truth. > > > In Judy's defense, I think she really DOES > > believe that these things ARE Truth. But that's > > because she tends to "settle" for the first ( in > > her mind ) reasonable explanation given to her. > > A wonderful example of Barry's incompetent mind- > reading. It took a long time for me to get > comfortable with MMY's explanations, and that onl
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
I have it on good source that Sal is really a college guy posing as a bitter woman. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" jstein@ wrote: > > > The reason Sal doesn't deal with me any more is that > > she isn't up to it. If I were her, I wouldn't be > > accusing others of lacking honor and being > > manipulators and phonies. > > > Sal is a bitter old fool angrily trying to bash everything related to the TMO because she intuitively understands that she made her life mistake stopping TM. > > What did you expect, anything honorable from from such a deprived and angry soul ? >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > Actually, if it summed up my ENTIRE position, I > wouldn't have gone on to write what Barry carefully > snipped (because if he hadn't snipped it, what he > went on to say wouldn't have made any sense). > > Here's the rest of what I said: > > - > We don't know why some people get results and some > don't. But that some people don't get results does > *not* automatically mean that all the others aren't > really getting results either. > > Sometimes life just ain't fair. Sometimes it's really, > really complicated and ambiguous and contradictory, > and we can't sort it out into neat little piles. > Sometimes it's more like quantum mechanics than > Newtonian mechanics. (That's an *analogy*, not an > equivalence.) And we're stuck with it. > > Unlike you, BTW, I grew up without faith. Sometimes > I think it would be nice to have faith, but it doesn't > seem to be anything I'm able to cultivate. So I go by > my own experience and by what makes sense to my > intellect. > > Despite my lack of experience of faith, though, I > don't look at those who do have it and assume they're > just hysterical. Rather, I assume they are capable of > having an experience for which, for whatever reason, > I'm not wired. There are enough other things in my > life that give me satisfaction that I don't miss it. Judy, When I read your post to Ruth I immediately recognized your intention to reach out to her out as one human being to another in the spirit of compassion. You even shared something personal about yourself, about not being wired to have "faith" and having made peace with your inability to cultivate it. It's amazing how tone deaf Curtis, Barry and Sal were to the genuine concern you had for Ruth. Their collective knee-jerk response was unwarranted. One would hope they know it is possible to disagree with someone, like them and still have empathy for them. I had a similar experience with Ruth. She expressed her hurt and anger about TM and the difficulty she has with friends and family because of TM. I responded with empathy. I believe it's natural for human beings, unless they are busy fighting by their own demons, to respond to someone's pain with empathy. Everyone has emotional trials to work through and ultimately, we're all in it together. This was my interaction with Ruth a few months ago. Message #203622 Re: Hey, Rick, you might not like this post --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > Yes! That is what I have said from day one. TM has nothing to do > > with love and kindness. And apparently even perverts can be > > enlightened. > > > > I harbor resentment to the TMO. Family and friends who became part of > > the cult treat me like shit and they don't even know that they do. > > And I walk on eggshells. > > Ruth, I don't judge anyone for stopping TM. It's a personal decision. > TM "works for me" may not mean anything to you and you can challenge > me intellectually about it all you want. Regardless, I will continue > to like you because I respect your honesty. I don't agree that TM has > nothing to do with love and kindness. I know many loving people who > practice TM. I have no idea if they were that way before they started > TM and I don't think it matters. Sorry about the eggshells. > Thanks Raunchy. I appreciate that you can say TM working for you might not mean anything to me. The eggshells are more like broken glass. Wax Wings and Eggshells Tightrope taut Toe trip slight Falter not Fear take flight Icaris tested Blistering sun Wax wings bested By too much fun Falling to sea Shattered by love Fearless was he White wingèd dove Freedom bound Storm about Courage sound Without a doubt Fair-weather friends Eggshells hollow Worship ends And dreams lay fallow Harvest now Unsung deeds Unearthed by plow And God's kind seeds raunchydog
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
Just for fun, I'm going to "fisk" this post of Barry's. I'm going to start with something from the end of his post, because it's so hilarious: > Believe something other than what Judy believes, > and there is something WRONG with you. Here's a question to ponder: If I thought there was something WRONG with Ruth because she believes something other than what I believe, would I recommend that in order to "fix" it, she seek counseling from *JOHN KNAPP*?? Barry gets so totally caught up in his elaborate fantasies that he's incapable of taking a step back to determine whether what he's saying makes the tiniest bit of sense. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > Judy's ENTIRE position can be summed up in > her own words below: > > Trusting your experience is fine. Having an aha > > moment in which you know you don't believe is fine. > > > > What's *not* fine, IMHO, is including in that aha > > moment of knowledge about your own lack of belief > > the "knowledge" that other people are "feeding off > > of each other's hysteria." > > > > That's just a way to make yourself feel better > > about your inability to have good results. > > There is a phrase to describe this position. > It is called "Blame the victim." As the rest of my post made clear (which Barry carefully did not quote because it made nonsense of his accusations), what I was "blaming" Ruth for is taking the position (which in any other context Barry would find an outrage) that if *she* wasn't having experiences, it must mean that others weren't either and were just "feeding off of each other's hysteria." (That's a direct quote from Ruth's post, BTW.) I explicitly said in the rest of my post that we *don't know* why some people have good results from TM and some don't. But here's Barry, making stuff up out of whole cloth: > Ruth's "problem" -- her "failure" -- is that > she was "incapable of having good results." I did not say that her *inability* to have good results was either a "problem" or a "failure." Barry made that up. > Whereas Judy was. And as all of the TBs she > so egomaniacally seeks to represent supposedly > were capable of having. I don't "seek to represent" anybody. And I'm speaking of only those who have *reported* having good results. > The issue here is ELITISM, pure and simple. > Judy and those who believe as she does are > the "elite." They were "evolved" enough to > appreciate the great gifts that Maharishi > sold them and "capable" of "having good > results." Ruth, ignoramus and "incapable" > as she is, was not. Made up out of whole cloth. Again, as I said, we *don't know* why some have good results and others don't. (But I always get a chuckle when Barry rants about "elitism," given that his positions here are by far the most elitist of anyone on FFL.) > THAT is the message that Judy is trying to > convey. Curtis is being easy on the bitch. > I have no such reservations. > > Judy's ENTIRE position is that anyone who does > not agree with her as to 1) what Maharishi > "really meant" when he said things, 2) what > his "message" really was, 3) what the "benefit" > of that message was, and 4) pretty much anything > else she has an opinion on is a LOSER. They are > somehow LESS than she is, "incapable" of seeing > how profound the things she believes are pro- > found "really" are. Made up out of whole cloth. I have never, *ever* taken this position, nor do I believe it. > Curtis is being *kind* to Judy here, treating > her as if there is still a human being "in there > somewhere" that could possibly respond to being > treated like one. I see no such human being. I > see only an automaton, one who repeats ( almost > verbatim, like the uncreative parrot she is ) > The Things She's Been Told Are Truth. Also made up out of whole cloth. I do sometimes use TM-speak when it seems to me to clearly express what I want to get across, but much more often I use my own words. Barry knows this. He also knows I have no inhibitions about disagreeing with Things I've Been Told Are Truth. > In Judy's defense, I think she really DOES > believe that these things ARE Truth. But that's > because she tends to "settle" for the first ( in > her mind ) reasonable explanation given to her. A wonderful example of Barry's incompetent mind- reading. It took a long time for me to get comfortable with MMY's explanations, and that only after considerable experience of TM, a lot of "outside" reading, and much intellectual reflection. I thought it was all total nonsense at first. > The next step, unfortunately, is to attempt to > put down anyone who DIDN'T settle for the first > explanation given to them as somehow "defective," As noted, this is false. I did not settle for the first explanation given to me. Nor do I attempt to put anybody down as "defective." Just made up out of whole cloth. > "incapable" of understanding the Great Truths > that Judy has understood ( because she can parrot > them verbatim ).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine wrote: > In Judy's case, yes. That's apparently the only > way she wants to deal with legitimate objections-- > villify the messenger--read their minds--use manipulation > and fake "concern" instead of responding rationally. And then > she accuses others of being "distraught." Which is > why I don't deal with her any more...there's no honor > amongst thieves, or, it would seem, manipulators and phonies. One more example of the hypocrisy of Sal's statement: She accuses me of mind-reading while happily doing it herself. And of course she'd never accuse *Barry* of mind-reading when he's attacking me. Just the latest of innumerable examples: "Judy and those who believe as she does are the 'elite.' They were 'evolved' enough to appreciate the great gifts that Maharishi sold them and 'capable' of 'having good results.' Ruth, ignoramus and 'incapable' as she is, was not. "THAT is the message that Judy is trying to convey. Curtis is being easy on the bitch. I have no such reservations. "Judy's ENTIRE position is that anyone who does not agree with her as to 1) what Maharishi 'really meant' when he said things, 2) what his 'message' really was, 3) what the 'benefit' of that message was, and 4) pretty much anything else she has an opinion on is a LOSER. They are somehow LESS than she is, 'incapable' of seeing how profound the things she believes are pro- found 'really' are." The difference, incidentally, between my "mind- reading" and Barry's is that mine is done in accord with what people actually *say*, whereas Barry simply makes up stuff that he likes the sound of. None of his "readings" above have anything to do with what I've said and are very largely, in fact, *contrary* to what I've said.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Sal Sunshine wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:27 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > >> You have plenty of emotion that you express in your > >> positions here. Neither of us are summing up your > >> objections as stemming from a psychological problem > >> you have. Is it too much to ask for this courtesy > >> in return? > > > > In Judy's case, yes. That's apparently the only > > way she wants to deal with legitimate objections-- > > villify the messenger--read their minds--use manipulation > > and fake "concern" instead of responding rationally. And then > > she accuses others of being "distraught." Which is > > why I don't deal with her any more...there's no honor > > amongst thieves, or, it would seem, manipulators and phonies. Another way you can tell a real liar is that they eagerly agree with lies told by others, as Vaj does here with Sal, and expand on them, as Vaj does below. They are especially good at snipping inconvenient context, as Sal did with Curtis's post when she carefully deleted what he had said to me just before what she quotes: "You have plenty of legitimate challenges to both of our POVs here." Note in Vaj's compendium of lies below, he uses the tactic I just mentioned, the vague, nonspecific charge with no documentation: > Yes, you're right, these have been common tactics in > the past--all part and parcel of her overall dishonest > approach. Another fave, and if I'm grokking tidbits in > others clippings correctly, is when nailed on something > or particularly when some TM dogmatic point she's VERY > attached to is rent asunder, rather than addressing the > actual intellectual or factual elements of the argument, > she'll switch to some unrelated element in the person: > they don't understand stand TM (as when they no longer > use TM speak), their counseling practice, faulty TM > practice, etc. Vaj is well aware that this isn't true. The *fact* is that while I do make some personal comments, I don't make them *instead* of legitimate challenges (as Curtis observed). Vaj thinks it's to his advantage to focus on the personal comments and pretend I substitute them for substantive ones. Goodness knows he's been on the receiving end of many, many substantive challenges from me. Typically he can't respond to them, of course. > The varieties seem endless, but the pattern is observable > and repeated. It's interesting the person who seems so > fond of telling people they are guilty of non sequiturs is > actually the one who tries to craftily use them herself. > Apparently misdirection must be the only way she can > respond when arguments stray outside of TB/SCI/TM milieu. More of the same. Just flatly untrue. Again, Vaj's attempt at misdirection here is obvious. It's the hypocrisy, stupid.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 12:43 PM, shukra69 wrote: > > > Here is the person who has no truth in him, when caught > > in lies tells many more lies, accusing someone of having > > a dishonest approach. Likewise Vaj who accuses others of > > ad-hominen arguements and never hesitates to make them. > > Shameless liar.Liar and shameless. > > TB Shukra who still doesn't know the difference from > being accused of lies by dishonest people, the ignorant > or the personality disordered and actual lies. It's a > distinction of convenience we see a lot here. Actually there's a very easy way to tell the difference. Actual liars are exposed when their lies are documented (such as emptybill and I and several others here do with Vaj's lies). Dishonest people who accuse others of lying simply make vague, nonspecific general accusations that they cannot document, as Vaj as done above. I suspect Shukra has no problem making this distinction.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > The reason Sal doesn't deal with me any more is that > she isn't up to it. If I were her, I wouldn't be > accusing others of lacking honor and being > manipulators and phonies. Sal is a bitter old fool angrily trying to bash everything related to the TMO because she intuitively understands that she made her life mistake stopping TM. What did you expect, anything honorable from from such a deprived and angry soul ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > > > > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. > > > > > > PLEASE stop saying this. > > > > Funny, I don't recall Lawson having said anything > > before that could be interpreted to mean he thinks > > TM is paying. > > > > In fact, in a recent post, he said, "The entire > > thing is funded by the DLF." > > This was all based on his misunderstanding of my statement that our schools > are underfunded. I didn't know why he went off on this tangent in the first > place. > > Shrug. Underfunding in one program doesn't preculde getting funding to do something else. My point was that the schools are NOT underfunded concernign the TM-quiet time program. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > > > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. > > > > PLEASE stop saying this. > > Funny, I don't recall Lawson having said anything > before that could be interpreted to mean he thinks > TM is paying. Eh, the TMO is a non-profit. So is the DLF. The TMO gets funds from the DLF to teach kids under the TM-quiet time thing. One no-profit supporting another non-profit in a venture that is at the core of both of their charters. Seems hardly worth responding to if I confuse one with the other in casual conversation. "the DLF pays for the TMO to do the action." "The TMO pays for the action." No diff at this level, at least to me. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine wrote: > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:27 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > You have plenty of emotion that you express in your > > positions here. Neither of us are summing up your > > objections as stemming from a psychological problem > > you have. Is it too much to ask for this courtesy > > in return? > > In Judy's case, yes. That's apparently the only > way she wants to deal with legitimate objections-- > villify the messenger--read their minds--use manipulation > and fake "concern" instead of responding rationally. Note how carefully Sal snipped what Curtis had said just above what she quoted: "You have plenty of legitimate challenges to both of our POVs here." Amazing. And of course she bought Curtis's misunderstanding-- that I was "summing up [their] objections as stemming from a psychological problem [they] have"--hook, line, and sinker. Never suggested that about either of them. > Which is why I don't deal with her any more...there's > no honor amongst thieves, or, it would seem, > manipulators and phonies. The reason Sal doesn't deal with me any more is that she isn't up to it. If I were her, I wouldn't be accusing others of lacking honor and being manipulators and phonies.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > Judy's ENTIRE position can be summed up in > her own words below: > > > Trusting your experience is fine. Having an aha > > moment in which you know you don't believe is fine. > > > > What's *not* fine, IMHO, is including in that aha > > moment of knowledge about your own lack of belief > > the "knowledge" that other people are "feeding off > > of each other's hysteria." > > > > That's just a way to make yourself feel better > > about your inability to have good results. Actually, if it summed up my ENTIRE position, I wouldn't have gone on to write what Barry carefully snipped (because if he hadn't snipped it, what he went on to say wouldn't have made any sense). Here's the rest of what I said: - We don't know why some people get results and some don't. But that some people don't get results does *not* automatically mean that all the others aren't really getting results either. Sometimes life just ain't fair. Sometimes it's really, really complicated and ambiguous and contradictory, and we can't sort it out into neat little piles. Sometimes it's more like quantum mechanics than Newtonian mechanics. (That's an *analogy*, not an equivalence.) And we're stuck with it. Unlike you, BTW, I grew up without faith. Sometimes I think it would be nice to have faith, but it doesn't seem to be anything I'm able to cultivate. So I go by my own experience and by what makes sense to my intellect. Despite my lack of experience of faith, though, I don't look at those who do have it and assume they're just hysterical. Rather, I assume they are capable of having an experience for which, for whatever reason, I'm not wired. There are enough other things in my life that give me satisfaction that I don't miss it. - The interesting thing is that in any other context, Barry would have been dumping on the person who claimed that because they weren't having a particular set of experiences, therefore nobody else was either. I mean, just *imagine* his righteous wrath if someone had claimed that because they didn't see Rama levitating, it meant that those who did were only "feeding off each other's hysteria." Barry's got nuthin' on the right-wingers as far as hypocrisy is concerned.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 5, 2009, at 12:43 PM, shukra69 wrote: Here is the person who has no truth in him, when caught in lies tells many more lies, accusing someone of having a dishonest approach. Likewise Vaj who accuses others of ad-hominen arguements and never hesitates to make them. Shameless liar.Liar and shameless. TB Shukra who still doesn't know the difference from being accused of lies by dishonest people, the ignorant or the personality disordered and actual lies. It's a distinction of convenience we see a lot here. Thanks for the demonstration. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > > > > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. > > > > > > PLEASE stop saying this. > > > > Funny, I don't recall Lawson having said anything > > before that could be interpreted to mean he thinks > > TM is paying. > > > > In fact, in a recent post, he said, "The entire > > thing is funded by the DLF." > > This was all based on his misunderstanding of my > statement that our schools are underfunded. I didn't > know why he went off on this tangent in the first > place. I'd guess he meant the program isn't underfunded, that the schools aren't going to have to pay anything, so it isn't going to take anything away from the schools' own funding. He thought you were saying the schools were already underfunded so they couldn't afford to fund TM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never > > > started. I wish my friends had never become parusha > > > or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from > > > others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > > > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > > > > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate > > > after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after > > > school. > > > > You sound like maybe you're a candidate for John Knapp's > > counseling services, Ruth. I'm serious; that's not snark. > > You seem genuinely distraught. > > > > He apparently does counseling over the phone, BTW. > > I'm getting a very disingenuous vibe here Judy. None > of the issues Ruth mentioned as concerns have anything > to do with John's practice. Oh, they certainly do, all the ones you mention, in fact. I have the impression he more often deals with people who've been deeply involved with the TMO, but I'd be very surprised if he doesn't also have clients who have been deeply involved with people who were deeply involved, even if they themselves weren't directly involved with the TMO. > She mentions she wishes she had never started and > doesn't tell us why. Wishes her friends hadn't become > unable to support themselves and ended up begging money > from their friends causing the conflicted feelings when > you care about someone who is shaking you down instead > of working. She is upset that some of her friends took > pseudo scientific advice for chronic diseases and I'm > guessing that this is because they didn't work. Then > she states basically our society's consensus belief > that specific religions not be taught in schools. > > These are all legitimate reasons to be as you spin > it "distraught" and I would term it, normally pissed > off for good reason. Except for the last, I agree. Did I suggest anywhere that they weren't legitimate reasons to be distraught? > The physiological demonetization of people who > challenge this teaching is a bit of a trend with > you lately. Ruth is clearly hurting. How is it "physiological demonetization" (did you mean "psychological demonization"?) to make that observation and to suggest appropriate counseling? Given what Ruth has been through with her husband and her friends, it wouldn't be normal for her *not* to be hurting. I don't know whether Ruth is having trouble dealing with her pain. If she isn't, more power to her. But if she is, counseling would be a very positive, healthy step. I'm a veteran of counseling myself. It was pre-TM, but I know how life can grind you down to the point where it becomes overwhelming. Ruth likes John. John has had a lot of experience with people who are experiencing anger and sadness that they attribute to their involvement with TM. Seems to me he'd be the perfect person to counsel her if she needs it. Hanging around FFL seems to be exacerbating her sadness and especially her anger. At any rate, she's expressing it more and more openly. That's probably a good thing up to a point, as long as it doesn't become a matter of further inflaming a wound instead of allowing it to heal. She isn't going to get 100% support for her general criticisms of TM here, and that has seemed to make her more angry. > When I expressed my experience that Maharishi > ignored his followers, you claimed I have "repressed > resentment" coloring my thinking. I said I *thought* you *might* have some *residual* resentment coloring your thinking (and not just based on that one comment by any means). But if that's the case, it would be *perfectly normal*. We've all got residual emotions floating around coloring our thinking. The intellect and the emotions often don't communicate very well. Ruth makes a list > of things how the movement involvement has hurt her > friendships and you "kindly" advise her to get a check > up from the neck up. If she's in serious pain, yes. I certainly could be wrong, but it sounds to me as though she is. (But it wouldn't be from the neck up, it would be from the heart up.) > Do you really need to resort to this tactic? You > have plenty of legitimate challenges to both of our > POVs here. How about knocking off the sophist's > trick of making is seem as if the person who has > issues with the teaching are caused by a physiological > condition instead of dealing with the issues brought up. Issues with the teaching are one thing. As you note, I don't shy away from discussing issues. But negative emotions resulting from loss are very real; it doesn't *matter* how valid the person's issues with the teaching are. I don't know about you, but I don't have to agree with Ruth (or you) on the intellectual issues to empathize with your negative emotions. > You have plenty of emotion that you exp
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
Here is the person who has no truth in him, when caught in lies tells many more lies, accusing someone of having a dishonest approach. Likewise Vaj who accuses others of ad-hominen arguements and never hesitates to make them. Shameless liar.Liar and shameless. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Sal Sunshine wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:27 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > >> You have plenty of emotion that you express in your positions > >> here. Neither of us are summing up your objections as stemming > >> from a psychological problem you have. Is it too much to ask for > >> this courtesy in return? > > > > In Judy's case, yes. That's apparently the only > > way she wants to deal with legitimate objections-- > > villify the messenger--read their minds--use manipulation > > and fake "concern" instead of responding rationally. And then > > she accuses others of being "distraught." Which is > > why I don't deal with her any more...there's no honor > > amongst thieves, or, it would seem, manipulators and phonies. > > > Yes, you're right, these have been common tactics in the past--all > part and parcel of her overall dishonest approach. Another fave, and > if I'm grokking tidbits in others clippings correctly, is when nailed > on something or particularly when some TM dogmatic point she's VERY > attached to is rent asunder, rather than addressing the actual > intellectual or factual elements of the argument, she'll switch to > some unrelated element in the person: they don't understand stand TM > (as when they no longer use TM speak), their counseling practice, > faulty TM practice, etc. The varieties seem endless, but the pattern > is observable and repeated. It's interesting the person who seems so > fond of telling people they are guilty of non sequiturs is actually > the one who tries to craftily use them herself. Apparently > misdirection must be the only way she can respond when arguments stray > outside of TB/SCI/TM milieu. Sometimes it's better to just shuddup. > > Of course she could have some strange vitamin deficiency related to > shoe leather. ;-) >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 5, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Vaj wrote: Of course she could have some strange vitamin deficiency related to shoe leather. ;-) LOL Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 5, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:27 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: You have plenty of emotion that you express in your positions here. Neither of us are summing up your objections as stemming from a psychological problem you have. Is it too much to ask for this courtesy in return? In Judy's case, yes. That's apparently the only way she wants to deal with legitimate objections-- villify the messenger--read their minds--use manipulation and fake "concern" instead of responding rationally. And then she accuses others of being "distraught." Which is why I don't deal with her any more...there's no honor amongst thieves, or, it would seem, manipulators and phonies. Yes, you're right, these have been common tactics in the past--all part and parcel of her overall dishonest approach. Another fave, and if I'm grokking tidbits in others clippings correctly, is when nailed on something or particularly when some TM dogmatic point she's VERY attached to is rent asunder, rather than addressing the actual intellectual or factual elements of the argument, she'll switch to some unrelated element in the person: they don't understand stand TM (as when they no longer use TM speak), their counseling practice, faulty TM practice, etc. The varieties seem endless, but the pattern is observable and repeated. It's interesting the person who seems so fond of telling people they are guilty of non sequiturs is actually the one who tries to craftily use them herself. Apparently misdirection must be the only way she can respond when arguments stray outside of TB/SCI/TM milieu. Sometimes it's better to just shuddup. Of course she could have some strange vitamin deficiency related to shoe leather. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > I wish I had started at > > > > the start of my senior year in HS instead of a > > > > few months after the end. > > > > > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never > > > started. I wish my friends had never become parusha > > > or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from > > > others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > > > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > > > > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate > > > after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after > > > school. > > > > You sound like maybe you're a candidate for John Knapp's > > counseling services, Ruth. I'm serious; that's not snark. > > You seem genuinely distraught. > > > > He apparently does counseling over the phone, BTW. > > I'm getting a very disingenuous vibe here Judy. None of > the issues Ruth mentioned as concerns have anything to > do with John's practice. > > She mentions she wishes she had never started and doesn't > tell us why. Wishes her friends hadn't become unable to > support themselves and ended up begging money from their > friends causing the conflicted feelings when you care about > someone who is shaking you down instead of working. She > is upset that some of her friends took pseudo scientific > advice for chronic diseases and I'm guessing that this is > because they didn't work. Then she states basically our > society's consensus belief that specific religions not be > taught in schools. > > These are all legitimate reasons to be as you spin it > "distraught" and I would term it, normally pissed off > for good reason. > > The physiological demonetization of people who challenge > this teaching is a bit of a trend with you lately. When > I expressed my experience that Maharishi ignored his > followers, you claimed I have "repressed resentment" > coloring my thinking. Ruth makes a list of things how > the movement involvement has hurt her friendships and > you "kindly" advise her to get a check up from the > neck up. > > Do you really need to resort to this tactic? You have > plenty of legitimate challenges to both of our POVs here. > How about knocking off the sophist's trick of making is > seem as if the person who has issues with the teaching > are caused by a physiological condition instead of > dealing with the issues brought up. > > You have plenty of emotion that you express in your > positions here. Neither of us are summing up your > objections as stemming from a psychological problem > you have. Is it too much to ask for this courtesy > in return? While, as always, I bow to Curtis' ability to "see the best in people," and speak to them or about them as if they were rational human beings and not pre-programmed automatons, I will respond *as I see it*, to Judy, as one of the premiere examples on this forum of a pre-programmed automaton. Judy's ENTIRE position can be summed up in her own words below: > Trusting your experience is fine. Having an aha > moment in which you know you don't believe is fine. > > What's *not* fine, IMHO, is including in that aha > moment of knowledge about your own lack of belief > the "knowledge" that other people are "feeding off > of each other's hysteria." > > That's just a way to make yourself feel better > about your inability to have good results. There is a phrase to describe this position. It is called "Blame the victim." Ruth's "problem" -- her "failure" -- is that she was "incapable of having good results." Whereas Judy was. And as all of the TBs she so egomaniacally seeks to represent supposedly were capable of having. The issue here is ELITISM, pure and simple. Judy and those who believe as she does are the "elite." They were "evolved" enough to appreciate the great gifts that Maharishi sold them and "capable" of "having good results." Ruth, ignoramus and "incapable" as she is, was not. THAT is the message that Judy is trying to convey. Curtis is being easy on the bitch. I have no such reservations. Judy's ENTIRE position is that anyone who does not agree with her as to 1) what Maharishi "really meant" when he said things, 2) what his "message" really was, 3) what the "benefit" of that message was, and 4) pretty much anything else she has an opinion on is a LOSER. They are somehow LESS than she is, "incapable" of seeing how profound the things she believes are pro- found "really" are. Curtis is being *kind* to Judy here, treating her as if there is still a human being "in there somewhere" that could possibly respond to being treated like one. I see no such human being. I see only an automaton, one who repeats ( almost verbatim, like the uncreative parrot she is ) The T
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:27 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: You have plenty of emotion that you express in your positions here. Neither of us are summing up your objections as stemming from a psychological problem you have. Is it too much to ask for this courtesy in return? In Judy's case, yes. That's apparently the only way she wants to deal with legitimate objections-- villify the messenger--read their minds--use manipulation and fake "concern" instead of responding rationally. And then she accuses others of being "distraught." Which is why I don't deal with her any more...there's no honor amongst thieves, or, it would seem, manipulators and phonies. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > > > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. > > > > PLEASE stop saying this. > > Funny, I don't recall Lawson having said anything > before that could be interpreted to mean he thinks > TM is paying. > > In fact, in a recent post, he said, "The entire > thing is funded by the DLF." This was all based on his misunderstanding of my statement that our schools are underfunded. I didn't know why he went off on this tangent in the first place. > > Perhaps Barry meant to write "Please DON'T say this"? > I mean, we know he's having quite a struggle today > to express himself clearly. > > > It isn't true and you know it. The TMO is not > > putting a PENNY of its own money on the line. > > Reasonable people who weren't looking for an excuse > to put down a TMer would assume, given the givens, > that Lawson didn't intend to suggest the TMO was > funding it, that he meant something else entirely. > > I'm not sure exactly what he *did* mean, but one > could always ask before activating one's peashooter > (not to mention falsely suggesting Lawson had > previously said what one is shooting at when he > hadn't). > > > Stop perpetuating something that even YOU > > know is a lie, Lawson. > > Oh, my, I guess Barry didn't mean "DON'T say this." > He *did* mean to suggest (knowingly falsely) that > Lawson had been saying it all along. > > So much for giving Barry the benefit of the doubt. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. > > PLEASE stop saying this. Funny, I don't recall Lawson having said anything before that could be interpreted to mean he thinks TM is paying. In fact, in a recent post, he said, "The entire thing is funded by the DLF." Perhaps Barry meant to write "Please DON'T say this"? I mean, we know he's having quite a struggle today to express himself clearly. > It isn't true and you know it. The TMO is not > putting a PENNY of its own money on the line. Reasonable people who weren't looking for an excuse to put down a TMer would assume, given the givens, that Lawson didn't intend to suggest the TMO was funding it, that he meant something else entirely. I'm not sure exactly what he *did* mean, but one could always ask before activating one's peashooter (not to mention falsely suggesting Lawson had previously said what one is shooting at when he hadn't). > Stop perpetuating something that even YOU > know is a lie, Lawson. Oh, my, I guess Barry didn't mean "DON'T say this." He *did* mean to suggest (knowingly falsely) that Lawson had been saying it all along. So much for giving Barry the benefit of the doubt.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > I wish I had started at > > > the start of my senior year in HS instead of a > > > few months after the end. > > > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never > > started. I wish my friends had never become parusha > > or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from > > others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate > > after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after > > school. > > You sound like maybe you're a candidate for John Knapp's > counseling services, Ruth. I'm serious; that's not snark. > You seem genuinely distraught. > > He apparently does counseling over the phone, BTW. I'm getting a very disingenuous vibe here Judy. None of the issues Ruth mentioned as concerns have anything to do with John's practice. She mentions she wishes she had never started and doesn't tell us why. Wishes her friends hadn't become unable to support themselves and ended up begging money from their friends causing the conflicted feelings when you care about someone who is shaking you down instead of working. She is upset that some of her friends took pseudo scientific advice for chronic diseases and I'm guessing that this is because they didn't work. Then she states basically our society's consensus belief that specific religions not be taught in schools. These are all legitimate reasons to be as you spin it "distraught" and I would term it, normally pissed off for good reason. The physiological demonetization of people who challenge this teaching is a bit of a trend with you lately. When I expressed my experience that Maharishi ignored his followers, you claimed I have "repressed resentment" coloring my thinking. Ruth makes a list of things how the movement involvement has hurt her friendships and you "kindly" advise her to get a check up from the neck up. Do you really need to resort to this tactic? You have plenty of legitimate challenges to both of our POVs here. How about knocking off the sophist's trick of making is seem as if the person who has issues with the teaching are caused by a physiological condition instead of dealing with the issues brought up. You have plenty of emotion that you express in your positions here. Neither of us are summing up your objections as stemming from a psychological problem you have. Is it too much to ask for this courtesy in return? >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine wrote: > > On Apr 5, 2009, at 1:57 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > Personally, I think it's fascinating that the > > SAME people who were claiming that me asking > > enlightened_dawn11 to provide a little proof > > that she had ever learned TM or the siddhis > > are now "piling on" to Raunchydog's demand > > for Vaj to do the same thing. :-) :-) :-) > > > > It's only "invasive" and "an attack" and > > "harrassment" if an anti-TMer does it. > > Another hallmark of rabid conservatism: hypocrisy. > Do as I say, not as I do. Good grief, Sal, don't you ever tire of getting caught on the wrong end of Barry's little scams? You aren't smart enough to see 'em coming, so you're a lot better off not chiming in and making yourself look gullible.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > It's only "invasive" and "an attack" and > > "harrassment" if an anti-TMer does it. > > No, it's only "invasive" and "an attack" and > "hartassment" [sic] if there's no good reason > for it. My oopsie: "hartassment" isn't [sic], "harrassment" is [sic].
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > Personally, I think it's fascinating that the > SAME people who were claiming that me asking > enlightened_dawn11 to provide a little proof > that she had ever learned TM or the siddhis > are now "piling on" to Raunchydog's demand > for Vaj to do the same thing. :-) :-) :-) Notice that Barry is having a little trouble with his sentence structure here. What exactly were these people claiming before they piled on? That part of the sentence seems to have gotten detached and put in the next sentence. Oopsie. > It's only "invasive" and "an attack" and > "harrassment" if an anti-TMer does it. No, it's only "invasive" and "an attack" and "hartassment" [sic] if there's no good reason for it. (And I wasn't "piling on" to Raunchy's demand; I was explaining to Curtis why it was reasonable to wonder if Vaj had ever been a TM teacher, and how he could provide some evidence without revealing his name if he wanted to ensure vicious TMers wouldn't be able to hunt him down.) And BTW, if Barry is so sure ed11 is Jim, why is he asking for proof of her TMer credentials? He never asked Jim. Double-oopsie. Oh, my, and the other day Barry made it crystal clear the term "anti-TMer" was a deadly insult-- and here he's using it to describe himself! Triple-oopsie. Could Barry be a little...distraught? Maybe the success of the concert and Barry's interest in McCartney's songwriting prowess has reminded him of this song: Dear Sir or Madam, will you read my book? It took me years to write, will you take a look? It's based on a novel by a man named Lear And I need a job, so I want to be a paperback writer Paperback writer It's the dirty story of a dirty man And his clinging wife doesn't understand His son is working for the Daily Mail It's a steady job but he wants to be a paperback writer Paperback writer Paperback writer It's a thousand pages, give or take a few I'll be writing more in a week or two I can make it longer if you like the style I can change it round and I want to be a paperback writer Paperback writer If you really like it, you can have the rights It could make a million for you overnight If you must return it, you can send it here But I need a break and I want to be a paperback writer Paperback writer Paperback writer Paperback writer, paperback writer Paperback writer, paperback writer Paperback writer, paperback writer ... © SONY/ATV TUNES LLC© SONY BEATLES LTD Lyrics provided by Gracenote
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
to talk of it isn't true and you know- who can be said to be making money? a non-profit org? A non-profit does not destroy itself to fund its current programs.Bevan's salary is known through public disclosure -it a very small amount. I have seen the salaries of other head of non-profits- its nothing by comparison. Its a complete falsehood to speak of "making money" . The result of the David Lynch Foundation can be seen in 100,000 students currently meditating in GROUPS in the program. So to YOU "PLEASE stop saying this." --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. > > PLEASE stop saying this. > > It isn't true and you know it. The TMO is not > putting a PENNY of its own money on the line. > Not only that, it's MAKING money on every > student instructed. > > Same as it ever was. The TMO strategy is to > get OTHER PEOPLE to pay IT for "saving > the world." > > Stop perpetuating something that even YOU > know is a lie, Lawson. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the > > > > TM bashers are working themselves into, to refute > > > > and negate this massive concert that will be held > > > > by some of the world's most famous musicians. > > > > > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating > > > > the message of TM, and introducing a new generation to > > > > it. it is something nobody expected, least of all those > > > > who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > > > > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this > > > > technique. compared to all of that, these few hysterical > > > > TM critics come across as less and less effective every > > > > day. > > > > > > I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how > > > it has reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. > > > > Much more interesting is, as ed11 says, how it has > > "reinvogorated" the TM critics. They haven't been so > > distraught in a long while. > > > > Meltdown alert! Hysterics can be vicious as they flail about just before > their final fizzle. It never ends well. > http://tinyurl.com/3sbc66 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfV_ENR5IZE HeHe, very funny :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 5, 2009, at 1:57 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Personally, I think it's fascinating that the SAME people who were claiming that me asking enlightened_dawn11 to provide a little proof that she had ever learned TM or the siddhis are now "piling on" to Raunchydog's demand for Vaj to do the same thing. :-) :-) :-) It's only "invasive" and "an attack" and "harrassment" if an anti-TMer does it. Another hallmark of rabid conservatism: hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the > teraining of hte kids and the teachers. PLEASE stop saying this. It isn't true and you know it. The TMO is not putting a PENNY of its own money on the line. Not only that, it's MAKING money on every student instructed. Same as it ever was. The TMO strategy is to get OTHER PEOPLE to pay IT for "saving the world." Stop perpetuating something that even YOU know is a lie, Lawson.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > > > > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the > > > TM bashers are working themselves into, to refute > > > and negate this massive concert that will be held > > > by some of the world's most famous musicians. > > > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating > > > the message of TM, and introducing a new generation to > > > it. it is something nobody expected, least of all those > > > who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > > > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this > > > technique. compared to all of that, these few hysterical > > > TM critics come across as less and less effective every > > > day. > > > > I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how > > it has reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. > > Much more interesting is, as ed11 says, how it has > "reinvogorated" the TM critics. They haven't been so > distraught in a long while. Ahem. You will have "posted out" before Monday. So, at their current rate, will Nabby and sparaig and the other compulsive TM apologists. Whereas we critics will still be here discussing more important things, like music and appreciating life. Which strikes you as more "distraught?" :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > > > > > Something good is happening. I never doubted > > > > Vaj was a fraud. He certainly didn't sound > > > > like he knew anything AT ALL about TM. Worse > > > > yet, he claimed he was a TM teacher but > > > > failed to produce a shred of evidence. > > > > > > Think what you like about his points, this > > > challenge is absurd if he wants to keep his > > > name off this forum. > > > > Oh, he could produce some evidence that > > couldn't be linked to his name, like which > > TTC he attended and the names of those who > > ran it, or helped MMY run it. (Of course, > > he could get such information from someone > > who actually was there even if he wasn't, > > but at least it would be *something*.) > > Agreed. I think he is jerking your chain a bit by withholding it. > . . . > > There's a reason why Vaj is the only person on > > FFL claiming to have been a TM teacher whose > > credentials have been seriously challenged. > > I may not have followed enough of this closely enough to > really get your point. You may have a better case than I > know about. Personally, I think it's fascinating that the SAME people who were claiming that me asking enlightened_dawn11 to provide a little proof that she had ever learned TM or the siddhis are now "piling on" to Raunchydog's demand for Vaj to do the same thing. :-) :-) :-) It's only "invasive" and "an attack" and "harrassment" if an anti-TMer does it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > I wish I had started at > > the start of my senior year in HS instead of a > > few months after the end. > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never > started. I wish my friends had never become parusha > or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from > others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate > after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after > school. You sound like maybe you're a candidate for John Knapp's counseling services, Ruth. I'm serious; that's not snark. You seem genuinely distraught. He apparently does counseling over the phone, BTW.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > I wish I had started at > > > the start of my senior year in HS instead of a few months after the end. > > > > > > L. > > > > > > > > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never started. I wish my > > friends had never become parusha or siddhas and lived lives sucking > > resources from others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird > > supplements to cure chronic disease. > > > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate after school. Sit in > > silence after school. Pray after school. > > > > YMMV obviously, but, which of us is the norm? > > L. > Neither of us. We are here. Clearly we are not normal. ;) My guess? The norm would be kids daydreaming instead of meditating and a number acting up when they are supposed to be quiet.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > I wish I had started at > > the start of my senior year in HS instead of a few months after the end. > > > > L. > > > > > And I wish I had never started and my friends never started. I wish my > friends had never become parusha or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources > from others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird supplements to > cure chronic disease. > > School is not for spiritual development. Meditate after school. Sit in > silence after school. Pray after school. > YMMV obviously, but, which of us is the norm? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > > I think the Jim chronicles are a more worthy April Fool's revelation. There > is something so oddly funny about that. What did I miss?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: I wish I had started at > the start of my senior year in HS instead of a few months after the end. > > L. > And I wish I had never started and my friends never started. I wish my friends had never become parusha or siddhas and lived lives sucking resources from others. I wish that they didn't take enemas and weird supplements to cure chronic disease. School is not for spiritual development. Meditate after school. Sit in silence after school. Pray after school.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > Much more interesting is, as ed11 says, how it has > "reinvogorated" the TM critics. They haven't been so > distraught in a long while. > As I explained above, my only concern is TM or any meditation or even silent time in the schools. School is for school. The concert I don't care about. Other than it would have been fun to see the old guys perform.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > > > > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the > > > TM bashers are working themselves into, to refute > > > and negate this massive concert that will be held > > > by some of the world's most famous musicians. > > > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating > > > the message of TM, and introducing a new generation to > > > it. it is something nobody expected, least of all those > > > who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > > > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this > > > technique. compared to all of that, these few hysterical > > > TM critics come across as less and less effective every > > > day. > > > > I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how > > it has reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. > > Much more interesting is, as ed11 says, how it has > "reinvogorated" the TM critics. They haven't been so > distraught in a long while. > Meltdown alert! Hysterics can be vicious as they flail about just before their final fizzle. It never ends well. http://tinyurl.com/3sbc66 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfV_ENR5IZE
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > > > > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the TM bashers are working > > > themselves into, to refute and negate this massive concert that will be > > > held by some of the world's most famous musicians. one anti TM, anti > > > Maharishi, anti everything stooge even calls into question the size of > > > the audience when equated with "huge". first the stooge (lets call him > > > Moe) can't get my name right, and second...i don't think he has heard of > > > media distribution or televised access...probably taps out his postings > > > on a telegraph key... > > > > > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating the message of > > > TM, and introducing a new generation to it. it is something nobody > > > expected, least of all those who run the TMO. just shows the silent power > > > of the Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this technique. > > > compared to all of that, these few hysterical TM critics come across as > > > less and less effective every day. > > > > I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how it has > > reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. You see Roth on the streaming video and he > > is absolutely excited and happy. Many here have been analyzing the purpose > > of the concert and why the small venue. I don't know. But I do agree that > > it must be exciting for those who believe the messages of the TM movement. > > We will see if it develops anything or poops out. > > > > My only problem is the school thing. Keep it away. Keep mindfulness away > > too. Keep silent time away, as it is usually a cover for promotion of > > prayer or something else. All of this stuff is too much tied into the > > promotion of faith based philosophies. Let us use school for school. > > Teaching kids how to read and communicate. Teaching kids science and the > > language of science, math. Teaching kids history, including religious > > history. Teaching kids arts and music and literature. Teaching them skills > > to cope with a complicated world. But not teaching them techniques based > > on philosophies regarding the meaning of life and whether we are more than > > flesh and blood. Let church do that. Let the DLF do that on time that is > > not school time. > > This was an excellent summation of the real issues at stake here for me Ruth, > thanks. Aside from all the detailed nonsense of whether TM is religious or > not, we have the under funded,under actualized secular school system to worry > about without all this added to the mix with its dubious agenda. Parents can > expose kids to anything they want outside of school. And religious people > will never understand why the line must be so firmly drawn. Except its not underfunded. The TMO takes care of the teraining of hte kids and the teachers. ANd for heavens' sake, we who have gone through AMerican schools without TM should be able to weigh in one whether it makes a difference if we start. Certainly did for me. I wish I had started at the start of my senior year in HS instead of a few months after the end. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the TM bashers are working > > themselves into, to refute and negate this massive concert that will be > > held by some of the world's most famous musicians. one anti TM, anti > > Maharishi, anti everything stooge even calls into question the size of the > > audience when equated with "huge". first the stooge (lets call him Moe) > > can't get my name right, and second...i don't think he has heard of media > > distribution or televised access...probably taps out his postings on a > > telegraph key... > > > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating the message of TM, > > and introducing a new generation to it. it is something nobody expected, > > least of all those who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this technique. compared > > to all of that, these few hysterical TM critics come across as less and > > less effective every day. > > I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how it has > reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. You see Roth on the streaming video and he > is absolutely excited and happy. Many here have been analyzing the purpose > of the concert and why the small venue. I don't know. But I do agree that > it must be exciting for those who believe the messages of the TM movement. > We will see if it develops anything or poops out. > > My only problem is the school thing. Keep it away. Keep mindfulness away > too. Keep silent time away, as it is usually a cover for promotion of prayer > or something else. All of this stuff is too much tied into the promotion of > faith based philosophies. Let us use school for school. Teaching kids how > to read and communicate. Teaching kids science and the language of science, > math. Teaching kids history, including religious history. Teaching kids arts > and music and literature. Teaching them skills to cope with a complicated > world. But not teaching them techniques based on philosophies regarding the > meaning of life and whether we are more than flesh and blood. Let church do > that. Let the DLF do that on time that is not school time. This was an excellent summation of the real issues at stake here for me Ruth, thanks. Aside from all the detailed nonsense of whether TM is religious or not, we have the under funded,under actualized secular school system to worry about without all this added to the mix with its dubious agenda. Parents can expose kids to anything they want outside of school. And religious people will never understand why the line must be so firmly drawn. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the > > TM bashers are working themselves into, to refute > > and negate this massive concert that will be held > > by some of the world's most famous musicians. > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating > > the message of TM, and introducing a new generation to > > it. it is something nobody expected, least of all those > > who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this > > technique. compared to all of that, these few hysterical > > TM critics come across as less and less effective every > > day. > > I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how > it has reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. Much more interesting is, as ed11 says, how it has "reinvogorated" the TM critics. They haven't been so distraught in a long while.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the TM bashers are working > themselves into, to refute and negate this massive concert that will be held > by some of the world's most famous musicians. one anti TM, anti Maharishi, > anti everything stooge even calls into question the size of the audience when > equated with "huge". first the stooge (lets call him Moe) can't get my name > right, and second...i don't think he has heard of media distribution or > televised access...probably taps out his postings on a telegraph key... > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating the message of TM, > and introducing a new generation to it. it is something nobody expected, > least of all those who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this technique. compared to > all of that, these few hysterical TM critics come across as less and less > effective every day. I have been puzzling over the concert and certainly see how it has reinvigorated hard core TM'ers. You see Roth on the streaming video and he is absolutely excited and happy. Many here have been analyzing the purpose of the concert and why the small venue. I don't know. But I do agree that it must be exciting for those who believe the messages of the TM movement. We will see if it develops anything or poops out. My only problem is the school thing. Keep it away. Keep mindfulness away too. Keep silent time away, as it is usually a cover for promotion of prayer or something else. All of this stuff is too much tied into the promotion of faith based philosophies. Let us use school for school. Teaching kids how to read and communicate. Teaching kids science and the language of science, math. Teaching kids history, including religious history. Teaching kids arts and music and literature. Teaching them skills to cope with a complicated world. But not teaching them techniques based on philosophies regarding the meaning of life and whether we are more than flesh and blood. Let church do that. Let the DLF do that on time that is not school time.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > More importantly, there would be no call for > > such evidence if Vaj's presentation of what TM > > involves were as accurate as, say, yours. > > Well I am a TM only spiritual seeker. I didn't spend > decades studying the same material in different ways. > So I think it is easier for me to do TM speak when I > need to. emptybill has been around the spiritual block too, it seems, but there's no question he knows his TM onions. And it isn't just "TM-speak"; it's conceptual. > > There's a reason why Vaj is the only person on > > FFL claiming to have been a TM teacher whose > > credentials have been seriously challenged. > > I may not have followed enough of this closely enough > to really get your point. You may have a better case > than I know about. > > > (By "seriously," I mean Willytex and Nabby aside.) > > It is only Nabbie who is a teacher, right? And Richard > may be doing more "thinking things over" than actually > meditating TM style for all we know! I mean Willytex and Nabby aside as serious challengers, not as TM teachers. > > You know, Curtis, we're pretty much in the same > > position you are when Nabby refers to your music > > as "hillbilly music." Even if Nabby had extensive > > knowledge of, say, jazz, there wouldn't be any > > point in your trying to communicate with him about > > the blues vs. jazz on a "more detailed intellectual > > level" if he's starting from the misapprehension > > that the blues is "hillbilly music." > > Well the similarity may be that Nabbie is purely > jerking my chain. I don't know how much of that Vaj > is doing with you, but it wouldn't surprise me if it > is a lot. If he is, that pretty much proves *our* point, that his claims about TM are fraudulent.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > > emptybill rules! Thank you for serving up some well deserved whoop-ass. > Well, isn't it interesting that on April Fool's Day we get a > twofer? Vaj, exposed as a liar and John Knapp exposed as a coward. > Something good is happening. For Knapp to cancel his webinar is not cowardice. It was sensitive to the fact that the DLF has far more resources if it is itching for a fight with its critics. A lawsuit, even a frivolous one, is costly. If you think this was "something good happening" I find that kind of sad.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > > > Something good is happening. I never doubted > > > Vaj was a fraud. He certainly didn't sound > > > like he knew anything AT ALL about TM. Worse > > > yet, he claimed he was a TM teacher but > > > failed to produce a shred of evidence. > > > > Think what you like about his points, this > > challenge is absurd if he wants to keep his > > name off this forum. > > Oh, he could produce some evidence that > couldn't be linked to his name, like which > TTC he attended and the names of those who > ran it, or helped MMY run it. (Of course, > he could get such information from someone > who actually was there even if he wasn't, > but at least it would be *something*.) Agreed. I think he is jerking your chain a bit by withholding it. > > More importantly, there would be no call for > such evidence if Vaj's presentation of what TM > involves were as accurate as, say, yours. Well I am a TM only spiritual seeker. I didn't spend decades studying the same material in different ways. So I think it is easier for me to do TM speak when I need to. > > There's a reason why Vaj is the only person on > FFL claiming to have been a TM teacher whose > credentials have been seriously challenged. I may not have followed enough of this closely enough to really get your point. You may have a better case than I know about. > > (By "seriously," I mean Willytex and Nabby aside.) It is only Nabbie who is a teacher, right? And Richard may be doing more "thinking things over" than actually meditating TM style for all we know! > > > And given the vitriol directed his way I can > > understand why. It still seems unreasonable > > to me that he has this intense interest and > > inside knowledge about the movement without > > being a teacher. > > TM teachers aren't the only ones who have an > interest in and inside knowledge of the TMO. Case in point. > > > I think that his understanding about the > > details of meditaton has shifted too far to > > connect with people who only have studied TM. > > This isn't at all convincing as an explanation > for why he gets so many details of what TM > involves factually incorrect. I admit ignorance of these. > > > > That is why I give the old Kumbaya speech to > > you and Judy every now and then about > > communicating with Vaj on a more detailed > > intellectual level. > > You know, Curtis, we're pretty much in the same > position you are when Nabby refers to your music > as "hillbilly music." Even if Nabby had extensive > knowledge of, say, jazz, there wouldn't be any > point in your trying to communicate with him about > the blues vs. jazz on a "more detailed intellectual > level" if he's starting from the misapprehension > that the blues is "hillbilly music." Well the similarity may be that Nabbie is purely jerking my chain. I don't know how much of that Vaj is doing with you, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is a lot. > > What you'd need to do first would be to find > out why he thought that and disabuse him of the > notion. Since I've already done that I just assume that he thinks it bugs me so he runs it into the ground. > > Not a perfect parallel, but the point is that > you can't engage in a meaningful "compare and > contrast" exercise with a person whose > understanding of one of the elements in the > comparison is faulty. Agreed. > > For that matter, Vaj doesn't seem to be capable > of explaining *his* favored end of the > comparison clearly. (And if emptybill's analysis > is on target, Vaj either doesn't understand it > or is misrepresenting it as well.) Don't know. > > > I would enjoy reading it. I accept that this > > relationship is too broken to fix. > > There's an interesting thread from some years > ago on alt.m.t that represents Vaj's first > major incursion into that forum, between Vaj > and me and several other knowledgeable TMers. > The TMers maintained politeness and gave Vaj > the benefit of the doubt for some time; it was > Vaj who initially devolved into the ad hominem > and open contempt that has always characterized > his exchanges with TMers here. Also clearly > evident were his reluctance (or inability) to > explain himself or justify his positions, as > well as numerous misunderstandings about the > nature of TM and the TM-Sidhis. > > If you'd be interested in reading the thread, > I could dig it up for you. Sure if it isn't a hassle to find it, I'd read it. The truth is that any attempt of mine to judge how you guys interact is bullshittery at best. You have chosen your interaction styles for your own good reasons. My fantasy of having the discussion get to the heart of the differences stems from the fact that I respect both of you for being really into these topics and such a discussion would be interestin
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > Something good is happening. I never doubted > > Vaj was a fraud. He certainly didn't sound > > like he knew anything AT ALL about TM. Worse > > yet, he claimed he was a TM teacher but > > failed to produce a shred of evidence. > > Think what you like about his points, this > challenge is absurd if he wants to keep his > name off this forum. Oh, he could produce some evidence that couldn't be linked to his name, like which TTC he attended and the names of those who ran it, or helped MMY run it. (Of course, he could get such information from someone who actually was there even if he wasn't, but at least it would be *something*.) More importantly, there would be no call for such evidence if Vaj's presentation of what TM involves were as accurate as, say, yours. There's a reason why Vaj is the only person on FFL claiming to have been a TM teacher whose credentials have been seriously challenged. (By "seriously," I mean Willytex and Nabby aside.) > And given the vitriol directed his way I can > understand why. It still seems unreasonable > to me that he has this intense interest and > inside knowledge about the movement without > being a teacher. TM teachers aren't the only ones who have an interest in and inside knowledge of the TMO. > I think that his understanding about the > details of meditaton has shifted too far to > connect with people who only have studied TM. This isn't at all convincing as an explanation for why he gets so many details of what TM involves factually incorrect. > That is why I give the old Kumbaya speech to > you and Judy every now and then about > communicating with Vaj on a more detailed > intellectual level. You know, Curtis, we're pretty much in the same position you are when Nabby refers to your music as "hillbilly music." Even if Nabby had extensive knowledge of, say, jazz, there wouldn't be any point in your trying to communicate with him about the blues vs. jazz on a "more detailed intellectual level" if he's starting from the misapprehension that the blues is "hillbilly music." What you'd need to do first would be to find out why he thought that and disabuse him of the notion. Not a perfect parallel, but the point is that you can't engage in a meaningful "compare and contrast" exercise with a person whose understanding of one of the elements in the comparison is faulty. For that matter, Vaj doesn't seem to be capable of explaining *his* favored end of the comparison clearly. (And if emptybill's analysis is on target, Vaj either doesn't understand it or is misrepresenting it as well.) > I would enjoy reading it. I accept that this > relationship is too broken to fix. There's an interesting thread from some years ago on alt.m.t that represents Vaj's first major incursion into that forum, between Vaj and me and several other knowledgeable TMers. The TMers maintained politeness and gave Vaj the benefit of the doubt for some time; it was Vaj who initially devolved into the ad hominem and open contempt that has always characterized his exchanges with TMers here. Also clearly evident were his reluctance (or inability) to explain himself or justify his positions, as well as numerous misunderstandings about the nature of TM and the TM-Sidhis. If you'd be interested in reading the thread, I could dig it up for you. Point being, it would be hard to make a case that Vaj has *ever* been interested in having an intellectually meaningful dialogue with committed TMers.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
Curtis wrote: > Think what you like about his points, this > challenge is absurd if he wants to keep his > name off this forum... > So, why didn't you challenge Vaj? Richard J. Williams wrote: > You didn't say that yoga was pluralistic and > that only the non-dual realization can produce > moksha? > Vaj wrote: No, you've been hanging around The Stone too long, you're sounding a lot like her! FairfieldLife/message/213929
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
Bill wrote: > Sorry to have to point it out but you have all > been played for fools by Naga Vaj. > Richard J. Williams wrote: > > But Vaj says you're practicing a preliminary > > yoga that is based on a dualism. If so, then > > 'PowerTouch Yoga' is just another pluralistic > > yoga. > > Vaj wrote: > I never said that. > You didn't say that yoga was pluralistic and that only the non-dual realization can produce moksha? FairfieldLife/message/213922
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > It's not surprising the TM naysayers, have lined up behind Vaj kissing > his ass. Let see: Edg believes Vaj as an intellectual authority on > meditation and beseeches him to explain the finer points of akasha and a > Buddhist mediation technique. Curtis thinks Vaj, like himself, has ideas > about TM worthy of discussion because Vaj has been there, done that and > has come to valid conclusions about TM based on his personal experience. > Sal believes everything Vaj says but is clueless as to why. Barry, says > he doesn't give a fuck but enjoys defending Vaj's lies with lies > of his own. Fortunately, the march of the minions over the cliff into > the abyss of Vaj's lies is few. Nota Bene: "over the cliff into > the abyss" is a metaphor for stupidity, and not a death threat. May > the TM critics live long and prosper. > > > > > > [http://teacherseducation.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/spock_giving_vulca\ > n_salute_286x215.jpg] Bingo !
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: > > yep, emptybill quietly carries a big stick, and knows how to use it. > > what is funny now is the absolute contortions the TM bashers are working > themselves into, to refute and negate this massive concert that will be held > by some of the world's most famous musicians. one anti TM, anti Maharishi, > anti everything stooge even calls into question the size of the audience when > equated with "huge". first the stooge (lets call him Moe) can't get my name > right, and second...i don't think he has heard of media distribution or > televised access...probably taps out his postings on a telegraph key... > > i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating the message of TM, > and introducing a new generation to it. it is something nobody expected, > least of all those who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the > Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this technique. compared to > all of that, these few hysterical TM critics come across as less and less > effective every day. Indeed. The "Buddhists", who, in vain, most actively try to bash TM are becoming more eand more desperate seing the success of TM not only in their own western countries but also in traditional Buddhists communities like Thailand and Vietnam. Just watch the energy the Turq and Vaj puts into their work every single day on FFL, up to 50 posts every week all year round; clearer sign of desperation is difficult to find. It appears to be very painful for these souls to see the continued expansion of an organization they again and again, applauded by their groupies and Hillbilly-pets, doomed to be dead and gone long time ago.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
yep, emptybill quietly carries a big stick, and knows how to use it. what is funny now is the absolute contortions the TM bashers are working themselves into, to refute and negate this massive concert that will be held by some of the world's most famous musicians. one anti TM, anti Maharishi, anti everything stooge even calls into question the size of the audience when equated with "huge". first the stooge (lets call him Moe) can't get my name right, and second...i don't think he has heard of media distribution or televised access...probably taps out his postings on a telegraph key... i think this concert is so beneficial to reinvigorating the message of TM, and introducing a new generation to it. it is something nobody expected, least of all those who run the TMO. just shows the silent power of the Maharishi, Guru Dev and all of those who practice this technique. compared to all of that, these few hysterical TM critics come across as less and less effective every day. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > > emptybill rules! Thank you for serving up some well deserved whoop-ass. > Well, isn't it interesting that on April Fool's Day we get a > twofer? Vaj, exposed as a liar and John Knapp exposed as a coward. > Something good is happening. I never doubted Vaj was a fraud. He > certainly didn't sound like he knew anything AT ALL about TM. Worse > yet, he claimed he was a TM teacher but failed to produce a shred of > evidence. Once again, thank you for showing precisely how Vaj so easily > twists the words of others into lies and presents them as FACTS. > Despicable. On the other hand, Barry attempts to get himself off the > hook for telling lies about TM by saying it's OPINION. He states this > often and with such ATTENTION getting grandiosity that methinks he doth > protest too much. > > > > It's not surprising the TM naysayers, have lined up behind Vaj kissing > his ass. Let see: Edg believes Vaj as an intellectual authority on > meditation and beseeches him to explain the finer points of akasha and a > Buddhist mediation technique. Curtis thinks Vaj, like himself, has ideas > about TM worthy of discussion because Vaj has been there, done that and > has come to valid conclusions about TM based on his personal experience. > Sal believes everything Vaj says but is clueless as to why. Barry, says > he doesn't give a fuck but enjoys defending Vaj's lies with lies > of his own. Fortunately, the march of the minions over the cliff into > the abyss of Vaj's lies is few. Nota Bene: "over the cliff into > the abyss" is a metaphor for stupidity, and not a death threat. May > the TM critics live long and prosper. > > > > > > [http://teacherseducation.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/spock_giving_vulca\ > n_salute_286x215.jpg] >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog" wrote: > > > emptybill rules! Thank you for serving up some well deserved whoop-ass. > Well, isn't it interesting that on April Fool's Day we get a > twofer? I think the Jim chronicles are a more worthy April Fool's revelation. There is something so oddly funny about that. < Vaj, exposed as a liar and John Knapp exposed as a coward.> Do you really think he should have faced a team of true believer lawyers working for free in an endless "silence the critics" lawsuit! He made the right move IMO. You have to pick you battles and battles with lawyers bent on defending their MASTER, don't prove anyone's courage. > Something good is happening. I never doubted Vaj was a fraud. He > certainly didn't sound like he knew anything AT ALL about TM. Worse > yet, he claimed he was a TM teacher but failed to produce a shred of > evidence. Think what you like about his points, this challenge is absurd if he wants to keep his name off this forum. And given the vitriol directed his way I can understand why. It still seems unreasonable to me that he has this intense interest and inside knowledge about the movement without being a teacher. I think that his understanding about the details of meditaton has shifted too far to connect with people who only have studied TM. He is outside the box. > > > > It's not surprising the TM naysayers, have lined up behind Vaj kissing > his ass. Let see: Edg believes Vaj as an intellectual authority on > meditation and beseeches him to explain the finer points of akasha and a > Buddhist mediation technique. Curtis thinks Vaj, like himself, has ideas > about TM worthy of discussion because Vaj has been there, done that and > has come to valid conclusions about TM based on his personal experience. I really appreciate this fair treatment of my position Raunchy. Thanks. You have always been nice to me here and I value that friendliness. The funny thing is that I probably share fewer assumptions of the goals of yoga with Vaj and you share much more. You disagree on how to get there, but both seem to share the basic aims and value a practice to achieve them. That is why I give the old Kumbaya speech to you and Judy every now and then about communicating with Vaj on a more detailed intellectual level. I would enjoy reading it. I accept that this relationship is too broken to fix. snip the TM critics live long and prosper.> It feels a little weird to be summed up as a TM critic but I guess it is a fair label. I might prefer "alternative TM explanation provider." Either way the subject still fascinates me and I have no desire to see TM disappear from the world. It has a place. Just not in the schools IMO. > > > > > > [http://teacherseducation.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/spock_giving_vulca\ > n_salute_286x215.jpg] >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
emptybill rules! Thank you for serving up some well deserved whoop-ass. Well, isn't it interesting that on April Fool's Day we get a twofer? Vaj, exposed as a liar and John Knapp exposed as a coward. Something good is happening. I never doubted Vaj was a fraud. He certainly didn't sound like he knew anything AT ALL about TM. Worse yet, he claimed he was a TM teacher but failed to produce a shred of evidence. Once again, thank you for showing precisely how Vaj so easily twists the words of others into lies and presents them as FACTS. Despicable. On the other hand, Barry attempts to get himself off the hook for telling lies about TM by saying it's OPINION. He states this often and with such ATTENTION getting grandiosity that methinks he doth protest too much. It's not surprising the TM naysayers, have lined up behind Vaj kissing his ass. Let see: Edg believes Vaj as an intellectual authority on meditation and beseeches him to explain the finer points of akasha and a Buddhist mediation technique. Curtis thinks Vaj, like himself, has ideas about TM worthy of discussion because Vaj has been there, done that and has come to valid conclusions about TM based on his personal experience. Sal believes everything Vaj says but is clueless as to why. Barry, says he doesn't give a fuck but enjoys defending Vaj's lies with lies of his own. Fortunately, the march of the minions over the cliff into the abyss of Vaj's lies is few. Nota Bene: "over the cliff into the abyss" is a metaphor for stupidity, and not a death threat. May the TM critics live long and prosper. [http://teacherseducation.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/spock_giving_vulca\ n_salute_286x215.jpg]
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
On Apr 2, 2009, at 4:11 AM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: thank you once again for proving something through your impeccable scholarship that many of us intuitively and experientally know about Vaj, that he lies continuously about his knowledge and practice of TM. i hope i didn't say that too loudly and rally his 3 or 4 supporters on this forum... Thanks for parroting your ignorance of ignorance. Impressive!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Warning! Vaj has played you to the hilt in an intellectual scam
thank you once again for proving something through your impeccable scholarship that many of us intuitively and experientally know about Vaj, that he lies continuously about his knowledge and practice of TM. i hope i didn't say that too loudly and rally his 3 or 4 supporters on this forum... my only question would be why you honor his ego trip with the adjective Naga? he is not out to dispel or dislodge our natural practice, only to try and confirm his own inferior one, a far lesser goal. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "emptybill" wrote: > > > Sorry to have to point it out but you have all been played for fools by > Naga Vaj. > > > > Some posts back Vaj began claiming that TM practitioners don't > transcend but only sink into a kind of unconscious state because they > cultivate mental laxity during meditation. He posted a quote from a book > on meditative states given by a Tibetan scholar, Lati Rinpoche, that > describes nine stages of concentration. Vaj then tried to use this quote > as an example of how TM is a faulty meditation practice. > > > > Vaj: > > This style of transcendence is taught in nine levels. They're described > in two files in the file section: > > > > Your first clue that you were being played was Vaj's description of > a "style" of transcendence taught in "nine levels". > Sound slightly suspicious? How many levels of transcendence are there? > In the context of MMY's Vedanta based teachings, transcendence means > turya-chaitanya, the fourth state beyond the relative cycles of waking, > dreaming and sleeping. "Beyond the relative cycles" means in > this context, Absoluteness, where there are no levels and where there > can be no levels - much less "nine levels of transcendence". > > > > Vaj knows this of course, so what he is deliberately doing is > superimposing one particular Buddhist conceptual scheme from one strand > of Buddhism onto FFL member's descriptions of their TM experience. > He is then claiming correlation between various types of TM experience > with the specific stages and phases of a single Buddhist meditative > schema. What Vaj deliberately leaves out of the discussion are the quite > incomparable elements between these two utterly different methods of > meditative practice. >
