Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[Christopher Smith]

On Mar 6, 2008, at 1:47 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:


in the case of pop, i think your argument is a little off the mark,  
but am not familiar enough with pop to talk about it with any  
authority: perhaps the piece would have to be notated to be  
registered for copyright, but in such cases i would expect the  
notation to be extremely traditional because the more unfamiliar  
the notation the more difficult it is to justify that symbol X  
really does mean play sound X.


In the case of pop, the only things that would have to be notated  
would be the melody and the lyrics, and only approximately at that,  
as those are the only parts that are copyrightable. Exact sounds,  
drum beats and the like (and even the rough chord symbols, never mind  
exact voicings!) are considered to be part of the arrangement and are  
left up to the band under the musical director. These things change  
over the course of time anyway, as styles change and musicians rotate.


It is just as well that the copyright rule was changed to not  
requiring notated sheet music. Even in the case of the most highly- 
improvised pop arrangements, the real version of the tune is the  
recording, not the sheet music.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[shirling & neueweise]

At 11:52 -0500 3/4/08, John Howell wrote:
It's pretty obvious in hindsight (and crystal 
clear from an historical point of view) that the 
development of new kinds of notation through the 
20th century, for and by the composers who 
believed themselves to be cutting edge on the 
non-pop side of music, was driven by the fact 
that copyright laws required a composition to be 
notated on paper to be eligible for copyright 
protection. (And I'd be interested in whether 
Jeff and Dennis B-K would agree with that 
summary, simplistic though it is.)



there is no foundation whatsoever for this idea.


in the case of pop, i think your argument is a 
little off the mark, but am not familiar enough 
with pop to talk about it with any authority: 
perhaps the piece would have to be notated to be 
registered for copyright, but in such cases i 
would expect the notation to be extremely 
traditional because the more unfamiliar the 
notation the more difficult it is to justify that 
symbol X really does mean play sound X.  new 
forms of notation don't always have an 
established tradition to rely on and therefore 
would be at the very least inefficient as 
references in any copyright dispute.   the same 
symbol means different things in different 
contexts and by different composers; this is not 
the case with pop notation.


have a look at a haubenstock-ramati score and ask 
yourself what the "identity" of the piece is in 
relation to the notation; have a look at a 
madonna chart and ask the same.  consider that in 
the realm of copyright protection.


even the most cursory scanning of even the 
poorest books about music (of which there are 
many) since the early 20th, or music since 1945 
(the two typical measuring references) show that 
the development of notation is a result of 
changing aesthetic interests, changes in 
performance protocol and musical / sonic 
experimentation and variation in the traditional 
performer-composer roles in some cases as well. 
an interest in improv and questioning of the 
supposed interpretive inflexibility inherent to 
the scores of some composers also led to the use 
of more graphic notation.   the situation is far 
more complex than can be summarized in email 
conversation, so i would hope that your remark is 
only a thought intended to open the discussion 
rather than some sort of absolute claim as to the 
nature of notation in contemporary music that a 
comment starting off with  "it's pretty obvious 
in hindsight" would seem to suggest.   i'll 
assume the former and continue...


So my question is, since the rules changed on 
January 1, 1978 (in the U.S.), and a composition 
is now protected by copyright the instant it 
exists "in fixed form," has the development of 
new notations and new notational conventions 
stopped or slowed down in favor of other kinds 
of "fixed forms"?  I would think that it should 
have, but I don't know that it has.


on the one hand, we are no longer in the early 
stages of new approaches to musical notation, 
where such practices would seem novel, "out 
there", or deemed "experimental" (implicitly 
suggesting impermanence although not neceessarily 
meant so), and on the other hand, so much has 
been done that it is really difficult today to 
develop any new symbols -- and possibly 
performance techniques -- that have not yet been 
used.  there would also seem to be at the moment 
a trend to more deeply explore the large range of 
approaches that developed so rapidly in the past 
40 years rather than develop new and unheard-of 
techniques of notation / performance protocol.


on a related topic: what is needed now is a 
resumé of what has been done and an attempt to 
standardize notation -- as far as this is 
possible.  so far we have the ghent conference, 
which was done too early and has not benefitted 
from any follow-up amendments: it remains only a 
partial solution to the problem.  the typical 
problem with standardization is that it is too 
inflexible.  the larger notational reform that is 
needed today is one which articulates a system 
with potential alternative situations / notations 
and which is not incestuously regional, as some 
"proposals" for notation standards have been. 
(reminder: i'm talking about **recent** trends in 
notation)


you can't talk about notation without bringing 
performance and composition into the discussion. 
this is true since any form of notation has 
existed, whether written or oral.



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[shirling & neueweise]

The book "Notations 21" is about to appear. The homepage is here:



there is a review of it here, but there is hardly any reference to 
non-american composers in what claims to be an international 
representation of trends in recent decades... even though there is a 
high proportion of US composers, i find this very dubious.

http://www.nysun.com/article/61847

"Notations21 participating composers; men and women... well reknowned 
icons... emerging artists... young and old...come from all around the 
globe from countries such as USA, Denmark, UK, Egypt, Germany, 
Canada, Austria, Australia, Switzerland, Greece, Argentina, Scotland, 
Japan, Korea, Mexico, Chile, France, China, Columbia, Nigeria, 
Israel, Hungary, India, Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, Peru, New 
Zealand, The Phillippines, Taiwan and South Africa...and more are on 
their way."


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

John Howell wrote, on 3/4/2008 11:52 AM:
It's pretty obvious in hindsight (and crystal 
clear from an historical point of view) that the development of new 
kinds of notation through the 20th century, for and by the composers who 
believed themselves to be cutting edge on the non-pop side of music, was 
driven by the fact that copyright laws required a composition to be 
notated on paper to be eligible for copyright protection.  (And I'd be 
interested in whether Jeff and Dennis B-K would agree with that summary, 
simplistic though it is.)


I don't agree with this conclusion at all. Notation progressed intensely 
throughout the 20th century because the older notation system was broken 
with respect to notating performance techniques, forms, tunings, 
expressive concepts, and performance strategies. None of these had to do 
with copyright. In pop, perhaps yes, but in nonpop, not to my knowledge 
-- and I'd be interested if you can find any composers who referenced 
absence of copyright protection as their reason for having used new 
notation before 1978.


So my question is, since the rules changed on 
January 1, 1978 (in the U.S.), and a composition is now protected by 
copyright the instant it exists "in fixed form," has the development of 
new notations and new notational conventions stopped or slowed down in 
favor of other kinds of "fixed forms"?  I would think that it should 
have, but I don't know that it has.


The book "Notations 21" is about to appear. The homepage is here:

Order from Amazon here:

(I'm supposedly represented in this book -- I haven't seen galleys or a 
published copy yet -- but chances are I will look like the most 
conservative composer among them!)


Development has only slowed down in its visibility because of the sheer 
mass of computer-set music going on with 19th century notation programs 
like Finale and Sibelius. It is still not easy to produce publishable 
graphical notation especially -- and not cheap, since color is now a 
significant part of the notation.


The struggle with using notation programs for new nonpop has been well 
documented here and on many websites and blogs, mine included. But 
notational invention has not withdrawn from the musical scene whatsoever 
-- and in fact, because traditional part of notation is now so easy to 
execute, the presence on new and graphical elements is all the more 
likely. For example, my own "Tirkiinistra: 25 Landscape Preludes" for 
piano are traditionally notated, except for the dynamics and shape, 
which are based on color photographs placed on each score page. The 
concepts and sounds in my series "Lunar Cascade in Serial Time" for 
tenor guitar can only be executed because of the embedded photos and 
graphical elements.


Must go. Have a book deadline to meet (not about music). But do look at 
the Notations 21 site and grab a copy of the book when it's out.


Dennis





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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[John Howell]

At 9:45 AM -0600 3/4/08, Patrick Sheehan wrote:

"What does a copyist do?"

Being a professional copyist, having done work for James Galway and 
wind composer Roger Cichy, I've never had to edit anything that they 
have given me, as I have just reset editions that have been given to 
me.


However, there are time when I have worked with other clients, one 
vocalist in particular, who knew nothing about notation, and sent me 
typed-out syllabic lyrics and note letter names, along with a CD, 
and I had to create a 7-piece score (with vocals) for use as a 
sacred psalm.  So, in that case, it was more than just copying.


I believe it's the copyists job to catch those errors, if there are 
typos or tessitura errors and such.  Anyone want to revisit this 
discussion?


I don't think we need to reopen it, but I do have one comment and one question.

Your note points out something very important, and I don't recall its 
being brought up.  "What does a copyist do?" is entirely dependent on 
"What does a composer (or arranger or would-be composer or arranger) 
do?"  In the case of your vocalist, you were obviously functioning as 
an arranger and not as a copyist, because your client lacked the 
training to do so.  In the case of the established way a musical 
theater or motion picture score is put together, there's an 
established hierarchy reaching from composer to arranger(s) to 
orchestrator(s) to copyist(s) to proof reader(s).  But in the movie 
soundtracks that started turning up in the '80s, which were made up 
of individual songs recorded by individual bands and vocalists, there 
may never have been any "arrangement" on paper because each band may 
have made up their own head arrangements in the recording studio. 
The way I put it to my vocal arranging students (and yes, vocal 
arranging is a specialty that not all instrumental arrangers are 
qualified in) is that there's no hard and fast definition of what an 
arranger does, because s/he does whatever is necessary for a given 
project.  The same thing applies to being a copyist.  The 
responsibilities can and will change from one project to the next.


In my own case, I think of myself as an arranger (even when I end up 
functioning as a composer), because that's my strength.  Any copying 
or engraving I do is simply a means to get my charts in front of live 
singers or players, not my profession.  And I'm not obsessed with 
playback because recorded tracks are not the product I produce.  If I 
were working in the beauty pageant side of the business, or in 
producing tracks for educational arrangements, I would have to be 
obsessed with playback, but I'm not.


OK, now for my question.  It's pretty obvious in hindsight (and 
crystal clear from an historical point of view) that the development 
of new kinds of notation through the 20th century, for and by the 
composers who believed themselves to be cutting edge on the non-pop 
side of music, was driven by the fact that copyright laws required a 
composition to be notated on paper to be eligible for copyright 
protection.  (And I'd be interested in whether Jeff and Dennis B-K 
would agree with that summary, simplistic though it is.)  So my 
question is, since the rules changed on January 1, 1978 (in the 
U.S.), and a composition is now protected by copyright the instant it 
exists "in fixed form," has the development of new notations and new 
notational conventions stopped or slowed down in favor of other kinds 
of "fixed forms"?  I would think that it should have, but I don't 
know that it has.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[Patrick Sheehan]

"What does a copyist do?"

Being a professional copyist, having done work for James Galway and wind 
composer Roger Cichy, I've never had to edit anything that they have given 
me, as I have just reset editions that have been given to me.


However, there are time when I have worked with other clients, one vocalist 
in particular, who knew nothing about notation, and sent me typed-out 
syllabic lyrics and note letter names, along with a CD, and I had to create 
a 7-piece score (with vocals) for use as a sacred psalm.  So, in that case, 
it was more than just copying.


I believe it's the copyists job to catch those errors, if there are typos or 
tessitura errors and such.  Anyone want to revisit this discussion?


- Original Message - 
From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?



shirling & neueweise wrote:


"From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied 
exactly as they gave it, no more and no less."


i won't say where this came from other than to mention it is from a 
composer and was sent to an experienced and diligent copyist i know.


i know there are copyists that also feel this way, but i've always felt 
that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' 
relation with the music, which means in some cases slight editing and 
corrections (notational standards, obvious typos/errors etc.) and in 
others actually arguing points with the composer that you know to be 
true, because you have spoken to dozens upon dozens of composers, 
performers, copyists and musicologists and have gleaned and considered 
various perspectives on notation standards, tendencies, alterations etc. 
and have a braod understanding of what the norms are and when it is 
pertinent to break them and when it is not.


further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is 
not always the person who "knows best" about their scores exactly because 
of the fact that they have spent so many months on the composition that 
they cannot distance themselves from things that actually hinder a proper 
rendition of the score by a performer who has not spent the same kind of 
obsessive focus (tunnel vision?) on the score. (this is not a comment on 
performer disengagement, that is another discussion altogether).


but i'm just one measly copyist, what do the collective you think about 
all this?  i'll start the list:


1. poor composer.
2.



I think that generally whenever anybody says "generally" that whatever 
they say is only true in a general sense and when examined more closely it 
often falls apart.


For *some* composers that original quote is true, but for many others, 
they welcome the corrections that copyists can provide.  And arguing 
points from the perspective of a performer to help a composer clarify what 
is being communicated on the printed page should, in my opinion, be 
welcome by any and all composers.  As long as the copyist realizes which 
sort of composer he/she is dealing with and ultimately adheres to the 
"client is always right (until the check clears)" mentality.  Composers 
need to be allowed their idiosyncracies -- otherwise what will the 
musicologists of the 2200s have to argue about and write dissertations 
about?  ;-)





--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[dhbailey]

Ray Horton wrote:
I read somewhere that Respighi had some instruments made for the piece, 
but I don't know where I read it.  The parts (3 pairs, sop, alto, 
ten/bass) say something like "Buccina (flicorno basso)" etc.  I believe 
the alto parts do give flugelhorn in parenthesis. The parts are usually 
played on trumpets and trombones, sometimes with flugel in the middle.  
I assume trombones on the lower parts because players are easier to find 
and projection is easier than with valve instruments.


The nightingale sound in the third movement specified a certain 78 RPM 
record of the day (now on CD).


I'm sorry I got fairly defensive on the scordatura issue.  I didn't know 
why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and interpreting what 
string professionals told me on the subject.  It seems like people 

[snip]

I, too,  was surprised that people were shooting the messenger.  It's 
not as if trombonists are afraid of scordatura string parts.  ;-)




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:

At 6:07 AM -0500 2/27/08, dhbailey wrote:


Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a 
semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with 
the extension on the low string?  It would certainly be a different 
tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it?


Well, don't the extensions actually fret the string mechanically? (No, 
I've never actually look at one up close.)  If so, you'd still have the 
open string quality, and of course you'd have the pitch. What you 
wouldn't have would be the slight change in string tension, which might 
or might not be audible, and which R. probably did NOT make the basis of 
his request.


As David pointed out, bass gamba players routinely tune their low D 
strings down to C when necessary, just as classical guitarists often 
tune their low E down to D, all without damaging the instruments or even 
changing the pitch of the other strings.  This is not rocket science!


John





Yes, a half-step on a single string shouldn't create any havoc on most 
string instruments or result in moving bridges or destabilization which 
needs a week or more to regain.


however, more drastic scordatura, possibly involving all strings, or as 
was mentioned in one piece detuning to where the bridge falls over is 
quite a different animal which could easily antagonize many string players.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 10:37 AM -0600 2/27/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hmm--would be interesting to see who (if anyone) uses the 78-rpm disc for
that Respighi specified for the "Janiculum" section. (Are you listening,
Roger Norrington?)


According to Daniels IV, the recording is supplied with the 
(presumably rental) parts.  What the recording format is, in this day 
and age, is a good question, but I doubt that it is still the 
original 78 rpm shellac disc (which very few people would actually be 
able to play any more).  On the other hand, I once received some 
Riccordi rental parts on age-yellowed paper that looked as if they 
dated from the same time as that 78 recording!!!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

Not to mention the low b-flat(s) for the basses in "Frau ohne Schatten."

ajr

> The basses have a low B. So he wants those with the low C extension to
> detune to B.
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
>
>
>
> On 27 Feb 2008, at 6:07 AM, dhbailey wrote:
>
>> Darcy James Argue wrote:
>>> Ray,
>>> I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have
>>> the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible.
>>> I would love to hear a performance with buccini.
>>> But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for
>>> a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down
>>> their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a
>>> specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a
>>> big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this
>>> instance.
>>
>> Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a
>> semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with
>> the extension on the low string?  It would certainly be a different
>> tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David H. Bailey
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

"No matter what happens, I'll be OK."


Darcy James Argue wrote:
Nobody's blaming you for anything, Ray. The only thing under attack 
here is the idea that retuning a string or two by a semitone will harm 
someone's instrument, a belief that does not seem to be founded in 
reality. Nobody doubts that this belief exists -- that's why we are 
complaining about it.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 27 Feb 2008, at 1:27 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

I didn't know why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and 
interpreting what string professionals told me on the subject.  It 
seems like people interested in writing and arranging music would 
want to know, without shooting the messenger.  This is an orchestra 
known worldwide for playing new music (somewhat in remission now, 
unfortunately), and not afraid of new techniques - check out the 
recording of _Suite for Symphonic Strings_ by Lou Harrison, for 
example, which has the cellos using guitar picks, etc., just for one 
example that comes to mind.


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

Nobody's blaming you for anything, Ray. The only thing under attack  
here is the idea that retuning a string or two by a semitone will harm  
someone's instrument, a belief that does not seem to be founded in  
reality. Nobody doubts that this belief exists -- that's why we are  
complaining about it.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 27 Feb 2008, at 1:27 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

I didn't know why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and  
interpreting what string professionals told me on the subject.  It  
seems like people interested in writing and arranging music would  
want to know, without shooting the messenger.  This is an orchestra  
known worldwide for playing new music (somewhat in remission now,  
unfortunately), and not afraid of new techniques - check out the  
recording of _Suite for Symphonic Strings_ by Lou Harrison, for  
example, which has the cellos using guitar picks, etc., just for one  
example that comes to mind.


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

I read somewhere that Respighi had some instruments made for the piece, 
but I don't know where I read it.  The parts (3 pairs, sop, alto, 
ten/bass) say something like "Buccina (flicorno basso)" etc.  I believe 
the alto parts do give flugelhorn in parenthesis. The parts are usually 
played on trumpets and trombones, sometimes with flugel in the middle.  
I assume trombones on the lower parts because players are easier to find 
and projection is easier than with valve instruments. 



The nightingale sound in the third movement specified a certain 78 RPM 
record of the day (now on CD). 



I'm sorry I got fairly defensive on the scordatura issue.  I didn't know 
why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and interpreting what 
string professionals told me on the subject.  It seems like people 
interested in writing and arranging music would want to know, without 
shooting the messenger.  This is an orchestra known worldwide for 
playing new music (somewhat in remission now, unfortunately), and not 
afraid of new techniques - check out the recording of _Suite for 
Symphonic Strings_ by Lou Harrison, for example, which has the cellos 
using guitar picks, etc., just for one example that comes to mind. 



Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra




John Howell wrote:

At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote:
And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger 
case of ignoring the composer's wishes!


That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate 
questions (at least!).  (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and 
(2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend.  (Assuming, 
of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society 
building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and 
(b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a 
certain distinctive sound.)


Stolba, in "The Development of Western Music: A History," says briefly:

"A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome.  Aerophones 
included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from 
bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections 
that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large 
G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped 
lituus.  Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin."


On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of 
the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says:


"The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient 
Roman army.


It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in 
length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a 
cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the 
mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened 
by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while 
playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his 
head or shoulder.


The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and various 
other purposes in the camp.


The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone. 
The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from 
Buccina.


In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines 
of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different 
ranges notated as "Buccine" (Italian plural), although he expected 
them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns.


So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical) 
shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore.  Not much help!!


And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or 
flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate 
this in writing or conversation somewhere?  And of course the eternal 
question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on 
the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?! 
(Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow 
bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.)


As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant to 
be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists to do 
something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a specific 
request.  And isn't this the piece that also calls for a nightingale 
as an "original instrument," or am I thinking of some other piece?


How are the buccinae parts usually played?  Saxhorns?  Wagner tubas? 
(That would be kind of a neat sound!)


John



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

The basses have a low B. So he wants those with the low C extension to  
detune to B.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 27 Feb 2008, at 6:07 AM, dhbailey wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:

Ray,
I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have  
the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible.  
I would love to hear a performance with buccini.
But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for  
a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down  
their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a  
specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a  
big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this  
instance.


Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a  
semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with  
the extension on the low string?  It would certainly be a different  
tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it?




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 27 Feb 2008 at 11:47, John Howell wrote:

> As David pointed out, bass gamba players routinely tune their low D 
> strings down to C when necessary, just as classical guitarists often 
> tune their low E down to D, all without damaging the instruments or 
> even changing the pitch of the other strings.  This is not rocket 
> science!

The fact that both examples there are in the guitar family (and have 
frets) should not be taken as some kind of special case. The fact is, 
a gamba is much more unstable tuning-wise than a modern instrument 
(because of the all-gut strings and low string tension), but I have 
tuned down to C and back up more than once within a single concert. 
It just isn't an issue.

Of course, with gambas, one has to tune between every piece, anyway, 
and they are still out of tune. ;)


-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 6:07 AM -0500 2/27/08, dhbailey wrote:


Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a 
semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with 
the extension on the low string?  It would certainly be a different 
tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it?


Well, don't the extensions actually fret the string mechanically? 
(No, I've never actually look at one up close.)  If so, you'd still 
have the open string quality, and of course you'd have the pitch. 
What you wouldn't have would be the slight change in string tension, 
which might or might not be audible, and which R. probably did NOT 
make the basis of his request.


As David pointed out, bass gamba players routinely tune their low D 
strings down to C when necessary, just as classical guitarists often 
tune their low E down to D, all without damaging the instruments or 
even changing the pitch of the other strings.  This is not rocket 
science!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

Hmm--would be interesting to see who (if anyone) uses the 78-rpm disc for
that Respighi specified for the "Janiculum" section. (Are you listening,
Roger Norrington?)

ajr

> At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote:
>>And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much
>>bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes!
>
> That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate
> questions (at least!).  (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and
> (2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend.  (Assuming,
> of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society
> building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and
> (b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a
> certain distinctive sound.)
>
> Stolba, in "The Development of Western Music: A History," says briefly:
>
> "A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome.  Aerophones
> included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from
> bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections
> that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large
> G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped
> lituus.  Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin."
>
> On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of
> the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says:
>
> "The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient
> Roman army.
>
> It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in
> length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a
> cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the
> mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened
> by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while
> playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his
> head or shoulder.
>
> The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and
> various other purposes in the camp.
>
> The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone.
> The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from
> Buccina.
>
> In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines
> of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different
> ranges notated as "Buccine" (Italian plural), although he expected
> them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns.
>
> So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical)
> shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore.  Not much help!!
>
> And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or
> flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate
> this in writing or conversation somewhere?  And of course the eternal
> question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on
> the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?!
> (Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow
> bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.)
>
> As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant
> to be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists
> to do something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a
> specific request.  And isn't this the piece that also calls for a
> nightingale as an "original instrument," or am I thinking of some
> other piece?
>
> How are the buccinae parts usually played?  Saxhorns?  Wagner tubas?
> (That would be kind of a neat sound!)
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John R. Howell
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Ray,

I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the 
instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would 
love to hear a performance with buccini.


But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a 
performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down their 
lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific spot. I 
am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn deal to 
follow the composers instructions in this instance.




Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a 
semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with the 
extension on the low string?  It would certainly be a different tone 
than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it?




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote:
And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much 
bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes!


That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate 
questions (at least!).  (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and 
(2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend.  (Assuming, 
of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society 
building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and 
(b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a 
certain distinctive sound.)


Stolba, in "The Development of Western Music: A History," says briefly:

"A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome.  Aerophones 
included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from 
bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections 
that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large 
G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped 
lituus.  Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin."


On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of 
the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says:


"The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient 
Roman army.


It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in 
length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a 
cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the 
mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened 
by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while 
playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his 
head or shoulder.


The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and 
various other purposes in the camp.


The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone. 
The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from 
Buccina.


In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines 
of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different 
ranges notated as "Buccine" (Italian plural), although he expected 
them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns.


So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical) 
shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore.  Not much help!!


And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or 
flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate 
this in writing or conversation somewhere?  And of course the eternal 
question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on 
the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?! 
(Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow 
bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.)


As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant 
to be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists 
to do something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a 
specific request.  And isn't this the piece that also calls for a 
nightingale as an "original instrument," or am I thinking of some 
other piece?


How are the buccinae parts usually played?  Saxhorns?  Wagner tubas? 
(That would be kind of a neat sound!)


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

OK

Ray

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Ray,

I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the 
instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would 
love to hear a performance with buccini.


But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a 
performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down 
their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific 
spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn 
deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 26 Feb 2008, at 1:46 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger 
case of ignoring the composer's wishes!


Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:

On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that 
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped 
bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least 
play the B without vibrato?)




Pizz, very soft, not so much.


Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as 
arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive 
because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway 
-- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.)


What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking 
their bridges off?  It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be 
imitated any other way.  Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the 
composer should always get exactly  what he/she wants...



Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to 
play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some 
representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the 
section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally 
substituting some other effect is not.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

Ray,

I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the  
instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would  
love to hear a performance with buccini.


But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a  
performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down  
their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific  
spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn  
deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 26 Feb 2008, at 1:46 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much  
bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes!


Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:

On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that  
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped  
bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least  
play the B without vibrato?)




Pizz, very soft, not so much.


Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive  
as arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive  
because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway  
-- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.)


What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking  
their bridges off?  It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be  
imitated any other way.  Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the  
composer should always get exactly  what he/she wants...



Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to  
play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some  
representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express  
the section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally  
substituting some other effect is not.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger 
case of ignoring the composer's wishes!


Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:

On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that 
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass 
string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B 
without vibrato?)




Pizz, very soft, not so much.


Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as 
arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive 
because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- 
folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.)


What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their 
bridges off?  It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated 
any other way.  Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer 
should always get exactly  what he/she wants...



Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play 
the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some 
representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the 
section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally 
substituting some other effect is not.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Just listen to the example (Pines, mvt 4) and get back to me.


RBH


Darcy James Argue wrote:

On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that 
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass 
string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B 
without vibrato?)




Pizz, very soft, not so much.


Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as 
arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive 
because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- 
folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.)


What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their 
bridges off?  It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated 
any other way.  Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer 
should always get exactly  what he/she wants...



Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play 
the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some 
representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the 
section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally 
substituting some other effect is not.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Feb 2008 at 17:59, Ray Horton wrote:

> I believe that needing "perhaps some slight adjustment to bridge angle" 
> in the middle of a piece, for the entire section of violins, is exactly 
> what we are discussing here as often impractical. 

Slight adjustments to the bridge are pretty much routine, at least 
for viols. I check mine weekly, and have to make slight adjustments 
every couple or three weeks -- nothing big, just making sure it 
remains in proper vertical and horizontal alignment.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura and trombone low B

[Ray Horton]

OK, you win!


I looked that one up again on Wikipedia:
---
In Haydn's  Symphony No. 60 
 in C (/Il 
Distratto/), the first and second violins start the finale of this 
unusual six-movement symphony with the lowest string tuned to F, but 
tune up to G in the course of the music to create a comical effect. The 
title of the symphony means "the absent-minded man" – so it is as if the 
violins have "forgotten" to tune their strings. The music actually stops 
for the violins to re-tune before continuing! Haydn also uses a violin 
with the lowest string tuned to F in the trio of his Symphony No. 67 
 in F.

---
Sounds cute, and quite doable. I had not heard of it before, and assumed 
it was obscure, but i was obviously incorrect. My mistake.



RBH


David W. Fenton wrote:

On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:47, Ray Horton wrote:

  
OK - that's one reported pro "Distratto" performance!  (No report on how 
many, if any, of the fiddlers brought their alternate instruments.)



Some Googling turned up this:

Cleveland Orchestra, 2002
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=18550

St. Louis Symphony, 2006
http://slso.org/notes/09-29-2006.htm

New York Philharmonic, 1991
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE4DF163DF932A1575AC
0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Philadelphia Orchestra, 2007
http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op76_philadelphia/op76_rec
itals.html

Philadelphia Orchestra, April 2008
http://www.philorch.org/styles/poa02e/www/prognotes_20070412.html

San Francisco Symphony, 2006
http://www.sfcv.org/arts_revs/sfsym_3_14_06.php

I found no evidence that Boston or Chicago had done it, but I just 
googled the orchestra names and "Distratto" to find these.


It seems to me that the best professional orchestras are programming 
this piece *all the time*, and not a single one of the reviews 
mentioned any switch of instruments by the players. Doesn't mean it 
didn't happen, but I see no evidence anywhere for the idea that any 
professional orchestra has switched instruments when programming this 
popular work. 

  

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

I believe that needing "perhaps some slight adjustment to bridge angle" 
in the middle of a piece, for the entire section of violins, is exactly 
what we are discussing here as often impractical. 



RBH


David W. Fenton wrote:

On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:25, Ray Horton wrote:

  
This would play into my earlier points concerning relative power of 
conductor and players, also value of instruments.



I'm certain I heard the Cleveland Orchestra do it back in the 80s 
when I lived in Cleveland. And just a quick Google picks up a report 
that they did it in 2002.


I don't think your point has any merit whatsoever. It doesn't reflect 
anything rational about the way stringed instruments actually work. 
It may be true that lots of string players have voodoo ideas about 
their instruments, but that doesn't mean there's any basis in fact 
for those ideas.


I talked to a professional violinist about it last night and he said 
the concern was totally crazy. Yes, retuning changes the balance of 
the instrument for the time that it's retuned, but if the instrument 
has nothing wrong with it physically, it will go back to its natural 
balance after being tuned back to standard tuning (with perhaps some 
slight adjustment to bridge angle). He said he used to play the Biber 
scordatura pieces all the time and never used a second instrument, 
nor encountered any problems with either of the tunings.



  

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura and trombone low B

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:47, Ray Horton wrote:

> OK - that's one reported pro "Distratto" performance!  (No report on how 
> many, if any, of the fiddlers brought their alternate instruments.)

Some Googling turned up this:

Cleveland Orchestra, 2002
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=18550

St. Louis Symphony, 2006
http://slso.org/notes/09-29-2006.htm

New York Philharmonic, 1991
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE4DF163DF932A1575AC
0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Philadelphia Orchestra, 2007
http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op76_philadelphia/op76_rec
itals.html

Philadelphia Orchestra, April 2008
http://www.philorch.org/styles/poa02e/www/prognotes_20070412.html

San Francisco Symphony, 2006
http://www.sfcv.org/arts_revs/sfsym_3_14_06.php

I found no evidence that Boston or Chicago had done it, but I just 
googled the orchestra names and "Distratto" to find these.

It seems to me that the best professional orchestras are programming 
this piece *all the time*, and not a single one of the reviews 
mentioned any switch of instruments by the players. Doesn't mean it 
didn't happen, but I see no evidence anywhere for the idea that any 
professional orchestra has switched instruments when programming this 
popular work. 

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that  
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass  
string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the  
B without vibrato?)




Pizz, very soft, not so much.


Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as  
arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive  
because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway --  
folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.)


What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking  
their bridges off?  It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be  
imitated any other way.  Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the  
composer should always get exactly  what he/she wants...



Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play  
the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some  
representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the  
section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally  
substituting some other effect is not.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:25, Ray Horton wrote:

> This would play into my earlier points concerning relative power of 
> conductor and players, also value of instruments.

I'm certain I heard the Cleveland Orchestra do it back in the 80s 
when I lived in Cleveland. And just a quick Google picks up a report 
that they did it in 2002.

I don't think your point has any merit whatsoever. It doesn't reflect 
anything rational about the way stringed instruments actually work. 
It may be true that lots of string players have voodoo ideas about 
their instruments, but that doesn't mean there's any basis in fact 
for those ideas.

I talked to a professional violinist about it last night and he said 
the concern was totally crazy. Yes, retuning changes the balance of 
the instrument for the time that it's retuned, but if the instrument 
has nothing wrong with it physically, it will go back to its natural 
balance after being tuned back to standard tuning (with perhaps some 
slight adjustment to bridge angle). He said he used to play the Biber 
scordatura pieces all the time and never used a second instrument, 
nor encountered any problems with either of the tunings.


-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura now ergobone (REALLY TAN)

[Ray Horton]

Hi Jim,


ErgoBone saved my career on bass trombone.  I really need to send the 
guy in Finland a testimonial.



I have a British euph and an American front-action, neither are really 
comfortable for me.



RBH


Williams, Jim wrote:

Hi, Ray...
Nice to see another Ergo user!
The ErgoEuph works nicely as well, though I have become convinced that the 
euphonium is the world's LEAST ergonomic instrument, at least the top-action 
ones with the british side 4th valve...
Jim 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ray Horton
Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 1:36
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura



First position - trombone - I get it!

I made reference to this in another post.


This retuning to which you refer on bass trombone takes a lot longer
than five minutes to learn, and remains confusing forever.  I know, I
went back to a single-valve for a few years, a few years ago, in an
effort to save my aching shoulder.   When I found out about the
Ergo-bone (a very nicely designed stand for the trombone while playing)
I put my double valve back on, which makes 99% of retuning the valve
unnecessary.


RBH


John Howell wrote:
  

At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote:


I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players
weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never
got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.
  

Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player!

OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to
adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?
I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes.  And similarly,
any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in
scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and
therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same
(except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses).

John




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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura and trombone low B

[Ray Horton]

OK - that's one reported pro "Distratto" performance!  (No report on how 
many, if any, of the fiddlers brought their alternate instruments.)




Trombone low B:
I teach my tenor trombone students to fake a low B - lipping down the C, 
since most of them don't have an E pull anyway. 



I have a nice, lighter-playing single-valve bass trombone (an old George 
Roberts model Holton), in addition to my orchestral double-valve Bach 
(on which the valves are removable).  On the Holton I can fake a B very 
nicely.  George told me he would pull to E if a B was sustained, or fake 
it if it was in passing. 



Re - Bartok: An E pull alone does not get you the Bartok glissandi, as 
they are B to F.  Most players play them switching from two valves to 
one, in the middle of the gliss.  Doug Yeo in Boston Symphony had an F 
bass with long slide (7 positions) made (like the instrument in Bartok's 
head).  The best way, short of the latter, is to start with an E pull 
and have tuba player push the slide in in mid-gliss (two hands - it 
works!). 



RBH





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well, low B isn't exactly a staple for trombones--not quite a pedal tone,
and not that versatile as a first harmonic. Esp for tenor 'bone. I've
always found it worthwhile to work around the challenges of instrumental
limitations to solve my problems--after, look at what Haydn pulled out of
the same necessity!

(Also, St. Louis Symphony did program the "Distratto" a buncha years
ago--I didn't get to hear it, though.)

ajr

  

I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve
bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today
where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN
HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major
orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he
didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it.

I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same
week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B
before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same!

C.


On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra?

ajr

  

John Howell wrote:


OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to
adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?
  



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

This would play into my earlier points concerning relative power of 
conductor and players, also value of instruments.



RBH



Bruce Clausen wrote:
The Young Musicians Foundation orchestra in L.A, performed "Il 
distratto" with Michael T. Thomas at the helm in the late '60s.  I 
don't recall any particular problems, though I was watching from the 
horn section.

Bruce Clausen

- Original Message - From: "Ray Horton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura



And you've seen it played, by a pro symphony, when?


RBH


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And don't forget Haydn't "Distratto" (Symphony #60) in terms of 
re-tuning

written into the music!

ajr



I think the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" comes to mind.


Thanks for the example.


RBH


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Hi Ray,

IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using
the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new 
F#C#AE

tuning.

The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link 
here:


http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441 




Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:



Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.


Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:


There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The
process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into
the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded
the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was
incredible.

I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.

--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:

http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27 




Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:



I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But
if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.


My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.


RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:


Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON



When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to
respond to in this...


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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

And I was in the audience for one of those performances, and can't 
say that all the trouble was actually worth it!!!  Definitely not a 
composer for the masses (I'm tempted to say definitely not a 
composer, but that would be unkind), but hey, he married a gorgeous 
woman with a breathtaking mezzo voice.  (Like other opera composers 
we could mention!)


John


At 12:15 PM -0500 2/25/08, Williams, Jim wrote:

Gee~
I was on the stage crew for a couple of those, especially Heracles, 
IIRC (at least for the destruction of the sets). Between the 
rehearsal pianos tuned flat (some of 'em anyway) and a set of 
confused singers who were making it up as they went along, and the 
flat winds...what a circus!
The stage crew that eventually destroyed those sets did so with a 
vengeance I had never seen before and haven't seen since.

Jim



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 11:56
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura


Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's
operas years ago...

ajr


 On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote:


 As far as scordatura for winds


 That phrase makes my head hurt.

 --
 David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
 David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

Well, low B isn't exactly a staple for trombones--not quite a pedal tone,
and not that versatile as a first harmonic. Esp for tenor 'bone. I've
always found it worthwhile to work around the challenges of instrumental
limitations to solve my problems--after, look at what Haydn pulled out of
the same necessity!

(Also, St. Louis Symphony did program the "Distratto" a buncha years
ago--I didn't get to hear it, though.)

ajr

> I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve
> bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today
> where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN
> HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major
> orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he
> didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it.
>
> I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same
> week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B
> before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same!
>
> C.
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra?
>>
>> ajr
>>
>>> John Howell wrote:

 OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to
 adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?
>>>
>>> To E??  I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G,
>>> but ...
>>> what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E?
>
>
>
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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Williams, Jim]

Gee~
I was on the stage crew for a couple of those, especially Heracles, IIRC (at 
least for the destruction of the sets). Between the rehearsal pianos tuned flat 
(some of 'em anyway) and a set of confused singers who were making it up as 
they went along, and the flat winds...what a circus!
The stage crew that eventually destroyed those sets did so with a vengeance I 
had never seen before and haven't seen since.
Jim



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 11:56
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura


Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's
operas years ago...

ajr

> On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote:
>
>> As far as scordatura for winds
>
> That phrase makes my head hurt.
>
> --
> David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
> David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/
>
>
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's
operas years ago...

ajr

> On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote:
>
>> As far as scordatura for winds
>
> That phrase makes my head hurt.
>
> --
> David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
> David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/
>
>
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 1:13 AM -0500 2/25/08, Ray Horton wrote:
As far as listing unusual techniques and unusual instruments in the 
auditions, it depends on how many players you want to eliminate from 
considering the auditions.


That's what I sort of figured.  (Of course the teaching jobs I've 
held both here and at Indiana would NEVER have been advertised as 
they ended up.  NOBODY does the strange variety of things I've done!)


Sax is a good example of what I mean.  Clarinet players often play 
sax, orchestras often need sax for pops and the occasional French 
piece.  The next time your orchestra has a second or third clarinet 
opening, should you list sax as a requirement?  Sure, you could, and 
you will get some applicants, and probably some good ones, but you 
won't get as many good clarinet applicants, and possibly not the 
best clarinet applicants.  Do you want the best clarinet player you 
can get playing every day, or do you want to save money on those 
occasions when you have to hire a sax?


I hear you, Ray.  The regional orchestra I played in until recently 
does the occasional Pops concert with a "star" (or at least someone 
who passes as a star in central Virginia; hey, we've even had Jimmy 
Dean!).  We had one such a couple of years ago, and it did call for a 
sax section, which was mostly filled by orchestra members who had sax 
as a double.  Well, the bottom line was that we had 5 sax players, 
but we didn't have a section.  And we had someone playing 1st alto, 
but we didn't have a lead player!


Also, on that concert, the "star's" conductor had us set up all over 
the stage in a configuration where nobody could hear what they were 
used to hearing.  In point of fact, he had us separated the way you 
would in a recording studio, and of course we were all miked.  We 
violas were stuck behind the drum set, and had no chance of getting a 
section blend with the rest of the strings.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Bruce Clausen]

The Young Musicians Foundation orchestra in L.A, performed "Il distratto" 
with Michael T. Thomas at the helm in the late '60s.  I don't recall any 
particular problems, though I was watching from the horn section.

Bruce Clausen

- Original Message - 
From: "Ray Horton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura



And you've seen it played, by a pro symphony, when?


RBH


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And don't forget Haydn't "Distratto" (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning
written into the music!

ajr



I think the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" comes to mind.


Thanks for the example.


RBH


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Hi Ray,

IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using
the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE
tuning.

The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link 
here:


http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:



Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.


Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:


There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The
process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into
the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded
the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was
incredible.

I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.

--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:

http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:



I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But
if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.


My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.


RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:


Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON



When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to
respond to in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote:

> As far as scordatura for winds

That phrase makes my head hurt.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

No, not at all, this does not happen.  We are simply not talking about 
"taking the easy way out." 



In fact, players will do quite the opposite.  Once, we were playing a 
piece written by a prominent bluegrass/crossover violin soloist who was 
obviously a novice orchestrator.  He had written an extremely high muted 
note in one of the trombone parts, just in a simple, quick trumpet and 
trombone chord.  I suggested (within the section) that we double it in a 
trumpet for safety, but the players involved took it as a point of pride 
to play it as written, as they always do in a case like that.  



Now, if they had had to alter their instrument, risking damage (even 
temporary) to same, it would have been different.  Same for the high 
bassoon solo. 



RBH



John Howell wrote:

At 10:58 PM + 2/23/08, Owain Sutton wrote:

 >

 Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to
 suspect that  Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons 
for wanting the  scordatura they asked for.



Absolutely.  Stravinsky in particular makes some very unexpected and
awkward demands on string players at times, and one can either say 'ahh,
but it's easier to do it another way', or trust him and try what he
says, which has a different end result even if only in a change in
timbre.


Ah heck, just give that high bassoon solo to the oboe player.  All the 
notes'll be covered!


Timbre is important, especially to someone like Stravinsky.

John



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

And you've seen it played, by a pro symphony, when?


RBH


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And don't forget Haydn't "Distratto" (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning
written into the music!

ajr

  

I think the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" comes to mind.


Thanks for the example.


RBH


Darcy James Argue wrote:


Hi Ray,

IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using
the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE
tuning.

The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

  

Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.


Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:


There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The
process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into
the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded
the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was
incredible.

I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.

--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:

http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

  

I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But
if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.


My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.


RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:


Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

  

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to
respond to in this...
  

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Hi Ray,

On 23 Feb 2008, at 5:18 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, 
they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely 
unnecessary:  In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a 
bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft);


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that 
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass 
string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B 
without vibrato?)





Pizz, very soft, not so much.  Pizz, the vibrato is minimal anyway. Most 
orchestras do not have a full section of basses with extensions, so they 
are playing the "upper" octave anyway.   Respighi's notation is mostly 
theoretical.   I can't imagine an Italian orchestra in the 20's all 
having extensions, but I don't know.



I suppose you get more upset when hardly anyone uses Respighi's 
especially designed _buccini_ for the extra brass?  This would have far 
more impact on the performance than those silly low Bs .  I've read of 
the instruments, but never seen them.  I enjoyed playing the parts (on 
conventional brass, as they are generally played) when I was younger, 
but the on-stage parts are more fun.



in __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the 
violas can do much better;


Not if what you want is the sound of a violin playing an open string Gb!



What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their 
bridges off?  It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any 
other way.  Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should 
always get exactly  what he/she wants...


in the original example that started this thread a novice 
orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the 
violin by several notes, etc.


Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that 
Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the 
scordatura they asked for. (And god forbid we assume that a [gasp] 
living composer might also have a legitimate musical reason for asking 
orchestral musicians do something a tiny bit out of the ordinary.)




It looks to me like the composer of the only one of the three examples 
that _might_ make a difference, Stravinsky, gave up on it in all 
subsequent revisions.  And maybe it would not really make a difference.  
It is a marvelous effect as it is played, now.  Perhaps someone will 
witness a trial of it as originally scored and tell us if it makes a 
significant difference - or perhaps the composer did already, and that 
is why he did not notate it that way again.  His works are full of this 
sort of correction - the polyrhythms near the beginning of _Petrushka_ 
are notated differently in the revision, for example, most certainly 
because the first version was impossible to understand at sight.



RBH





Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Williams, Jim]

Hi, Ray...
Nice to see another Ergo user!
The ErgoEuph works nicely as well, though I have become convinced that the 
euphonium is the world's LEAST ergonomic instrument, at least the top-action 
ones with the british side 4th valve...
Jim 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ray Horton
Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 1:36
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura



First position - trombone - I get it!

I made reference to this in another post.


This retuning to which you refer on bass trombone takes a lot longer
than five minutes to learn, and remains confusing forever.  I know, I
went back to a single-valve for a few years, a few years ago, in an
effort to save my aching shoulder.   When I found out about the
Ergo-bone (a very nicely designed stand for the trombone while playing)
I put my double valve back on, which makes 99% of retuning the valve
unnecessary.


RBH


John Howell wrote:
> At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote:
>>
>> I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players
>> weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never
>> got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.
>
> Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player!
>
> OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to
> adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?
> I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes.  And similarly,
> any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in
> scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and
> therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same
> (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses).
>
> John
>
>
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

First position - trombone - I get it!

I made reference to this in another post.


This retuning to which you refer on bass trombone takes a lot longer 
than five minutes to learn, and remains confusing forever.  I know, I 
went back to a single-valve for a few years, a few years ago, in an 
effort to save my aching shoulder.   When I found out about the 
Ergo-bone (a very nicely designed stand for the trombone while playing) 
I put my double valve back on, which makes 99% of retuning the valve 
unnecessary. 



RBH


John Howell wrote:

At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote:


I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players 
weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never 
got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.


Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player!

OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to 
adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? 
I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes.  And similarly, 
any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in 
scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and 
therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same 
(except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses).


John



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

As far as listing unusual techniques and unusual instruments in the 
auditions, it depends on how many players you want to eliminate from 
considering the auditions.



Sax is a good example of what I mean.  Clarinet players often play sax, 
orchestras often need sax for pops and the occasional French piece.  The 
next time your orchestra has a second or third clarinet opening, should 
you list sax as a requirement?  Sure, you could, and you will get some 
applicants, and probably some good ones, but you won't get as many good 
clarinet applicants, and possibly not the best clarinet applicants.  Do 
you want the best clarinet player you can get playing every day, or do 
you want to save money on those occasions when you have to hire a sax?  
Besides, most of times you need a sax, you will need the clarinet part 
covered, also.  We lucked out becaue our 3rd/contrabassoonist happens to 
be a good sax player, and it does happen that a lot of pops concerts 
that use sax on the second half (with the "star") don't use 
third/contrabassoon on that half.  But would you list sax as a double on 
your next bassoon audition?  I wouldn't advise it.



BTW, re "tenor tuba" euphonium or Wagner tuba (two different 
instruments, both of which are called tenor tuba) are already standard 
doubles for trombone and horn players, respectively, in an orchestra.  A 
trombone section will nearly always have one or more euph players in the 
section, although euph does sometimes get listed on the audition.  The 
only limit on horn players playing Wagner tuba is availability of 
instruments and an hour or two of practice.  But most of the Wagner tuba 
pieces require another four horns, anyway.  I'm sure the Met Opera and 
other opera orchestras with double sections that play a lot of that rep 
have Wagner tuba on the auditions for the bottom half. 



Not uncommon to find a mandolinist in a violin section - but how often 
do you need one, really?  And we hire a banjo about once every ten 
years, and we're in Kentucky! 



Start listing banjo, mandolin, and scordatura on your string auditions, 
and you will cut the string pool WAY down;  but I'm sure that they would 
be of more similar mind-set for whatever you have planned.



As far as scordatura for winds - actually, bass trombonists get quite 
familiar with retuning their valve on the fly, especially if they play 
without a double valve.   Can be mentally quite challenging.  Trumpets 
retune the third valve to play a low F, which affects other notes.  [the 
next examples are tangential] Also, the key of their part and the key of 
their instrument often do not match.  They play A parts on C trumpet, E 
parts on Bb trumpet, etc.  I saw a trumpet player who was playing the 
high section in the finale of the Bartok _Concerto for Orchestra_ on an 
E trumpet, but he was reading it off of a part transposed for F 
trumpet.  Tuba players really have some of the biggest mental challenge 
- the parts are always in concert pitch - they learn first on an 
instrument in Bb, then later switch to one in C, and somewhere pick up a 
horn for the high parts in Eb, or F, or maybe one of each, and maybe a 
euphonium in (high) Bb.  Of course, trombone players have the same 
situation between tenor and alto trombone - the parts are always in 
concert pitch, but the alto trombone is in a different key and all the 
positions are shorter. 



Bassoons sometimes add an extension (a short wooden cylinder, an English 
Horn bell, or even a toilet paper roll) to get a low A that is 
occasionally written.   And then there is the "basset-clarinet"!  (


Percussionists do have to play pretty much anything that gets written in 
their part - and cost a lot of weird rentals.  And the only double and 
cartage paid is drum set, as a rule.   (Timps are a seperate instrument.)



As far as a lack of adventure among orchestral musicians, not really 
true.  I, personally, enjoy doing many different things.  In the 
orchestra I've played bass and tenor trombone, euphonium, bass trumpet, 
tuba, dijerido, garden hose, sung a couple of solos and with groups, 
done numerous arrangements and compositions, etc.  And there are quite a 
few others in the orchestra who are like that, and a few who are not.  



But I still don't blame strings for not doing the scordatura if there is 
another way that is just as good, or if the composer could find another 
way.



Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra


John Howell wrote:
And you're also right that not everyone WANTS to do it.  Fine.  The 
point, then, is that folks should not seek employment in a situation 
where they will be required to do things they haven't learned to do, 
not that they couldn't learn to do them if they wanted to.  Passive 
resistance to specific instructions or requests by a composer simply 
show a too highly developed lack of any sense of adventure.


Perhaps orchestral auditions should include a warning that the players 
will be expected to make 

Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Christopher Smith]

I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve  
bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today  
where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN  
HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major  
orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he  
didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it.


I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same  
week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B  
before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same!


C.


On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra?

ajr


John Howell wrote:


OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to
adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?


To E??  I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G,  
but ...

what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E?




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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra?

ajr

> John Howell wrote:
>>
>> OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to
>> adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?
>
> To E??  I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ...
> what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E?
>
> cd
> --
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#
> http://members.cox.net/dershem
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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 10:58 PM + 2/23/08, Owain Sutton wrote:

 >

 Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to
 suspect that 
 Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the 
 scordatura they asked for.



Absolutely.  Stravinsky in particular makes some very unexpected and
awkward demands on string players at times, and one can either say 'ahh,
but it's easier to do it another way', or trust him and try what he
says, which has a different end result even if only in a change in
timbre.


Ah heck, just give that high bassoon solo to the oboe player.  All 
the notes'll be covered!


Timbre is important, especially to someone like Stravinsky.

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 5:49 PM -0500 2/23/08, Darcy James Argue wrote:

Hi Ray,

On 23 Feb 2008, at 5:18 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, 
they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as 
merely unnecessary:  In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when 
there is a bass section that can divide (the passage in question is 
very soft);


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that 
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass 
string.


Exactly!  A composer who is a skilled and experienced orchestrator is 
concerned with more than just having the notes played.  The timbre is 
another variable with which a fine orchestrator is concerned, and 
with which s/he is entitled to play.  I seem to recall that in 
Rimsky's orchestration books he spent page after page dealing with 
the wind instruments in different combinations.  Would the brass 
section decide that when a composer asks for straight mutes they'd 
really rather play with cup mutes?  Hey, all the notes are still 
there!!!


And as to double, triple, and quadruple stops, again a knowledgeable 
composer has the right to specify divisi or non-divisi, while the 
conductor or concertmaster in an orchestra below the professional 
level have an equal right to simplify the composer's desires in order 
to make them playable.  A true professional, by definition, is one 
who is capable of following the composer's imagination and 
specifications to the letter, as long as it is a capable composer who 
really knows his or her craft.


Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect 
that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting 
the scordatura they asked for. (And god forbid we assume that a 
[gasp] living composer might also have a legitimate musical reason 
for asking orchestral musicians do something a tiny bit out of the 
ordinary.)


Q.E.D.

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton
> Sent: 24 February 2008 02:32
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
> 
> 
> On 23 Feb 2008 at 21:28, Owain Sutton wrote:
> 
> > I've played a piece where all four strings are
> > gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several 
> > minutes, to the point where the bridge falls down.  And when 
> > discussing this piece, many other players have said they 
> would never 
> > do this, the soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the 
> > body would be prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like 
> they keep it 
> > at a constant humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc.  
> > None of these has happened yet.
> 
> While I agree that the concerns over tuning one or two strings a half 
> or whole step away from normal are completely overblown, there really 
> *is* a danger when the bridge is down, and that's that the post falls 
> over (which is *good*, since it releases the tension), or that the 
> post could poke through the top of the instrument. William Monical 
> describes a stringed instrument as a lever balanced on a point, the 
> bridge, and that balance can be limited to a fairly tight range.
> 
> If my instrument were going to have the bridge down for any length of 
> time, I'd definitely want to knock the post out of place.
> 

Bear in mind that in this context, I'm not talking about suddenly
releasing all the pressure.  In any case, even if there is a risk of the
soundpost falling, 'poke through the top of the instrument'?  That's
equating it to instruments dropping from a height bridge-down onto tiles
or being stamped on, which are the situations in which I've seen that
happen.




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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton
> Sent: 24 February 2008 02:43
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
> 
> 
> On 23 Feb 2008 at 22:55, Owain Sutton wrote:
> 
> > And unless a bridge or
> > soundpost actually needs replacing, I don't have much respect for 
> > somebody who charges money to set things up again.  It's 
> NOT that big 
> > or skilled a task.
> 
> I would have to disagree with that. You definitely need someone with 
> a good ear and the skill to translate the sound into adjustments to 
> the position of the sound post. It's always a trade-off -- e.g., by 
> opening up the top of the instrument, you may tighten the bottom, and 
> balancing that out takes sensitivity to the instrument and to the 
> particular player.
> 


I suppose what I mean is the actual tasks of setting up and adjusting an
instrument are not the difficult part, and that the player should be
involved in the process and understand the effects of what is being done
rather than expecting a third party to perform some magic.


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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 23 Feb 2008 at 22:55, Owain Sutton wrote:

> And unless a bridge or
> soundpost actually needs replacing, I don't have much respect for
> somebody who charges money to set things up again.  It's NOT that big or
> skilled a task.

I would have to disagree with that. You definitely need someone with 
a good ear and the skill to translate the sound into adjustments to 
the position of the sound post. It's always a trade-off -- e.g., by 
opening up the top of the instrument, you may tighten the bottom, and 
balancing that out takes sensitivity to the instrument and to the 
particular player.

On the other hand, it is a bit of voodoo, but that's mostly because 
the instruments themselves vary so wildly with humidity and 
temperature. William Monical once came to an NYU Collegium concert 
and adjust the posts on all our viols just before we played. I'd love 
to say that it made a huge difference in our playing, but it didn't! 
It is always frustrating to make the trek out to Staten Island, and 
have your instrument sound simply fabulous after his adjustments, and 
then get home and find that it no longer sounds like it did in 
Monical's shop.

But post adjustments *do* make a huge difference. And perhaps it's 
more of a different in instruments like viols, which are at much 
lower tensions so that things can shift more easily.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 23 Feb 2008 at 17:18, Ray Horton wrote:

> Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they 
> see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely 
> unnecessary:  In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass 
> section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); in 
> __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the violas 
> can do much better; 

Well, there's quite an obvious answer:

IT SOUNDS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE ALTERNATIVE SCORING.

It's not even a subtle difference in the case of a violin playing 
below its normal range as compared to a viola played on the bottom 
string.

> in the original example that started this thread a 
> novice orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the 
> violin by several notes, etc. 

I introduced the topic of scordatura in response to that *as a joke*.

>  These players do not want to risk a 
> problem, even a temporary one, to their instrument for what they see as 
> a musical situation that can be solved in an easier and better fashion 
> than by one that causes its own problems.. 

I think it's ridiculous to worry about such a thing, even with a very 
fine instrument. If it's really that unstable that you can't retune 
it and have it hold its tune, then the instrument needs work!

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[David W. Fenton]

On 23 Feb 2008 at 21:28, Owain Sutton wrote:

> I've played a piece where all four strings are
> gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes,
> to the point where the bridge falls down.  And when discussing this
> piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the
> soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be
> prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant
> humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc.  None of these has
> happened yet.

While I agree that the concerns over tuning one or two strings a half 
or whole step away from normal are completely overblown, there really 
*is* a danger when the bridge is down, and that's that the post falls 
over (which is *good*, since it releases the tension), or that the 
post could poke through the top of the instrument. William Monical 
describes a stringed instrument as a lever balanced on a point, the 
bridge, and that balance can be limited to a fairly tight range.

If my instrument were going to have the bridge down for any length of 
time, I'd definitely want to knock the post out of place.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 3:08 PM -0800 2/23/08, Carl Dershem wrote:

John Howell wrote:


OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning 
to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to 
E?


To E??  I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but 
... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E?


Getting the low B Bartok required.  Or anyone else.  Of course I'm 
thinking back in the good ol' days when bass trombones only had one 
valve.  (If it's good enough for George Roberts ...)


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Christopher Smith]

On 23-Feb-08, at 6:08 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:


John Howell wrote:
OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning  
to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide  
to E?


To E??  I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G,  
but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E?


On single-valve bass trombones (that used to be the only kind) you  
had to add about 4-1/2 inches of tubing to get a low B without faking  
it. Usually they pulled the valve slide when they saw a B coming up.


Tenor trombones with F valves still have the capability to pull to an  
E tuning for the most part, so it isn't gone into the depths of  
history yet.


Some serious orchestra players prefer to play bass trombone on a  
single-valve instrument. They claim it is much freer-blowing. I have  
to agree with them, but in my free-lance work I need the second valve  
too often to be able to pass it up. If I were only an orchestral bass  
trombonist, I might be able to get away with it.


Christopher



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

And don't forget Haydn't "Distratto" (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning
written into the music!

ajr

> I think the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" comes to mind.
>
>
> Thanks for the example.
>
>
> RBH
>
>
> Darcy James Argue wrote:
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using
>> the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE
>> tuning.
>>
>> The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here:
>>
>> http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - Darcy
>> -
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Brooklyn, NY
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
>>
>>> Solos are different.
>>>
>>> Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the
>>> strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> RBH
>>>
>>> Darcy James Argue wrote:
 There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's
 (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two
 strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The
 process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into
 the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded
 the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was
 incredible.

 I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good
 instrument," and not a beater fiddle.

 --

 Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in
 fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave
 lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:

 http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27


 Cheers,

 - Darcy
 -
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Brooklyn, NY



 On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

> I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But
> if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.
>
>
> My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get
> similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you
> talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.
>
>
> RBH
>
>
> shirling & neueweise wrote:
>>
>>> Tread carefully.
>>> For starters, the violinist is my daughter.
>>
>> in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)
>>
>> mouthclosedmodeON
>>
> When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she
> said "That's why God made violas."

 there are just too many layers of things to even begin to
 respond to in this...
>>
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>


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Carl Dershem]

John Howell wrote:


OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to 
adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E?


To E??  I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... 
what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E?


cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#
http://members.cox.net/dershem

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[arabushk]

I remember that the debut concert of the IU New Music Ensemble featured a
cellist playing Pendercki's "Capriccio per Siegfried Palm." The cellist
sitting next to me in piano class said that you couldn't give here $3000
to do that to her cello, and I found out later that the guy who played it
borrowed a school instrument to do so.

Also, the ensemble's director was very fond of saying that a bunch of
string players bitched at Monteverdi for asking them to play pizzicato,
and that we all know Monteverdi's name but not the names of any of those
whiny string players.

ajr

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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> 
> Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to 
> suspect that  
> Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the  
> scordatura they asked for.


Absolutely.  Stravinsky in particular makes some very unexpected and
awkward demands on string players at times, and one can either say 'ahh,
but it's easier to do it another way', or trust him and try what he
says, which has a different end result even if only in a change in
timbre.


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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell
> Sent: 23 February 2008 22:39
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
> 
> 
> At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote:
> >
> >I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players
> >weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never 
> >got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.
> 
> Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player!
> 
> OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to 
> adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? 
> I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes.  And similarly, 
> any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in 
> scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and 
> therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the 
> same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string 
> basses).
> 
> John
> 


Absolutely.  It's more a 'state of mind' than anything else, treating
the notation as one step closer to a tablature than normal.


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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> 
> Perhaps orchestral auditions should include a warning that the 
> players will be expected to make any adjustments to conventional 
> techniques required by the composers whose music is played.  How 
> about it, Ray; would professional orchestra players agree to that, or 
> are they too hidebound conservative?  There must be provisions for 
> conventional unconventional doubles, like banjo, mandolin, and of 
> course the saxes and occasional tenor tuba.  And is there an 
> equivalent to scordatura tunings for strings in the brass and 
> woodwind sections?  (Percussionists may be more open to challenges 
> than any other players in the orchestra!!)
> 
> 

Well, one of the difficulties that we're clearly encountering is that
it's hard to find any common agreement of how far one can adjust
instruments, violins specifically, without risking permanent damage.
Which surely would have to be the limit of any such requirement?!







> 
> (Actually they do their darndest to maintain constant humidity, both 
> with those wormy things stuck in the F-holes and with very 
> scientific-looking gizmos in their cases.  Instruments built in and 
> for European climates react quite badly to the wild extremes found in 
> various parts of North America.)

As I have demonstrated to my and my violin's cost when camping in the
Rockies.  However, none of it as as scientific as it might look.  The
hygrometers in cases are just there to look flash, and I wouldn't trust
them to give an accurate reading.  As for humidifiers in f-holes, while
they have a very useful function in preventing things drying out too far
(especially in an instrument more familiar with maritime climates), they
fall a long way short of maintaining constant humidity.


> 
> But I would definitely draw the line (despite my advocacy of 
> following the composer's wishes) at anything that would cause the 
> bridge or soundpost to either fall or get misplaced.  It costs MONEY 
> to get a good luthier to restore the proper setup, and it has to be 
> done in the dark of the moon with newt's eye and some other weird 
> stuff.  I'd expect the composer to rent me a fiddle and take full 
> responsibility for it if s/he wanted something that close to being 
> destructive.
> 
> John
> 

I suppose I am a bit spoilt, with a fallen soundpost only requiring a
ten minute walk down the road to get sorted :)   And unless a bridge or
soundpost actually needs replacing, I don't have much respect for
somebody who charges money to set things up again.  It's NOT that big or
skilled a task.


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Chuck Israels]

I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players  
weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never  
got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.





On the trombone!  ;-)

Chuck

Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Ray,

On 23 Feb 2008, at 5:18 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint,  
they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely  
unnecessary:  In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a  
bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft);


Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that  
scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass  
string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B  
without vibrato?)


in __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the  
violas can do much better;


Not if what you want is the sound of a violin playing an open string Gb!

in the original example that started this thread a novice  
orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the  
violin by several notes, etc.


Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that  
Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the  
scordatura they asked for. (And god forbid we assume that a [gasp]  
living composer might also have a legitimate musical reason for asking  
orchestral musicians do something a tiny bit out of the ordinary.)


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote:


I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players 
weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never 
got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.


Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player!

OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to 
adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? 
I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes.  And similarly, 
any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in 
scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and 
therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the 
same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string 
basses).


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Chuck Israels]

On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Hi Chuck,

The discussion has not been about the difficulty of learning to play  
in an unfamiliar tuning, but rather the allegation that detuning a  
string instrument can cause serious, lasting problems to the  
instrument itself.


Sorry, my bad.

Probably shouldn't jump in after having deleted all the preceding posts.

Chuck





(I should add that the harmonic gliss passage from The Firebird  
under discussion is not at all difficult to play!)


Clearly, the issues are much different for jazz improvisers vs.  
learning to play a written passage that calls for an alternate tuning.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 3:44 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:


HI Darcy,

I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there  
is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but  
short passages.  Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic  
patterns for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some  
are more adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with  
different tunings than others.  I can play the cello a little, and  
the bass tuned in 5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste,  
but some people find it advantageous), but comfortable access to  
the hand movements and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz  
improvisation I can only get in my "home" tuning of 4ths.  I know  
this is a limitation of my brain function, but I don't believe I am  
alone in being disturbed and a little distanced from my musical  
responses when I have to cope with unfamiliar tunings.  I'm sure  
this can be overcome with practice, (people double on clarinet and  
saxophone, and some know the old system of clarinet fingering and  
can switch back and forth from it with relative ease) but not  
everyone wants to do it.


Just my 2 cents.

Chuck


On Feb 23, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Also:

If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more  
concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior  
instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting  
tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and  
serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you  
would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to  
play a piece that called for alternate tuning.


I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and  
superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of  
orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an  
orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from  
the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians  
to do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do  
the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just  
curious.



Thanks,
RBH


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phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 9:28 PM + 2/23/08, Owain Sutton wrote:


That's nothing ;)  I've played a piece where all four strings are
gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes,
to the point where the bridge falls down.  And when discussing this
piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the
soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be
prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant
humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc.  None of these has
happened yet.


You mean the sky really isn't falling?  Whew!  I was afraid I missed it!!

(Actually they do their darndest to maintain constant humidity, both 
with those wormy things stuck in the F-holes and with very 
scientific-looking gizmos in their cases.  Instruments built in and 
for European climates react quite badly to the wild extremes found in 
various parts of North America.)


But I would definitely draw the line (despite my advocacy of 
following the composer's wishes) at anything that would cause the 
bridge or soundpost to either fall or get misplaced.  It costs MONEY 
to get a good luthier to restore the proper setup, and it has to be 
done in the dark of the moon with newt's eye and some other weird 
stuff.  I'd expect the composer to rent me a fiddle and take full 
responsibility for it if s/he wanted something that close to being 
destructive.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they 
see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely 
unnecessary:  In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass 
section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); in 
__heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the violas 
can do much better; in the original example that started this thread a 
novice orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the 
violin by several notes, etc.   These players do not want to risk a 
problem, even a temporary one, to their instrument for what they see as 
a musical situation that can be solved in an easier and better fashion 
than by one that causes its own problems.. 



A soloist, who gets the gig based on a unique work and gets paid much 
more dough, is in quite a different situation.   Even the concertmaster 
playing "Dance Macabre" is, similarly.  (And, yes, the former soloist 
MAY be playing her less than best fiddle!  But she might not - she 
definitely has time to set it up for the next performance.)



I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players 
weighing in.  I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got 
_really_ comfortable out of first position, myself.



RBH






Darcy James Argue wrote:

Also:

If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern 
for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and 
must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this 
might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so 
if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be 
more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for 
alternate tuning.


I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and 
superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral 
string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral 
warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place 
as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that 
falls outside of their usual comfort zone.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the 
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.



Thanks,
RBH


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 12:44 PM -0800 2/23/08, Chuck Israels wrote:

HI Darcy,

I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there 
is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short 
passages.  Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns 
for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more 
adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings 
than others.  I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in 
5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people 
find it advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements 
and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only 
get in my "home" tuning of 4ths.  I know this is a limitation of my 
brain function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed 
and a little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope 
with unfamiliar tunings.  I'm sure this can be overcome with 
practice, (people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know 
the old system of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth 
from it with relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it.


Hi, Chuck, and you're absolutely right, and it's no limitation of 
your brain function.  You can't do something you've never done before 
unless you learn to do it and practice doing it.  The most obvious 
example is that most classically-trained players and singers can't 
perform jazz and do it not only with proper styles but with intuitive 
instincts for what is right, let alone improv.  (The opposite, of 
course, is also true.)


And you're also right that not everyone WANTS to do it.  Fine.  The 
point, then, is that folks should not seek employment in a situation 
where they will be required to do things they haven't learned to do, 
not that they couldn't learn to do them if they wanted to.  Passive 
resistance to specific instructions or requests by a composer simply 
show a too highly developed lack of any sense of adventure.


Perhaps orchestral auditions should include a warning that the 
players will be expected to make any adjustments to conventional 
techniques required by the composers whose music is played.  How 
about it, Ray; would professional orchestra players agree to that, or 
are they too hidebound conservative?  There must be provisions for 
conventional unconventional doubles, like banjo, mandolin, and of 
course the saxes and occasional tenor tuba.  And is there an 
equivalent to scordatura tunings for strings in the brass and 
woodwind sections?  (Percussionists may be more open to challenges 
than any other players in the orchestra!!)




Just my 2 cents.

Chuck


I'll see your 2 cents and raise you a nickel!

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

I think the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" comes to mind.


Thanks for the example.


RBH


Darcy James Argue wrote:

Hi Ray,

IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using 
the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE 
tuning.


The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441 



Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the 
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.



Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:
There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's 
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two 
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The 
process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into 
the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded 
the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was 
incredible.


I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good 
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.


--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in 
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave 
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:


http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27 



Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But 
if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get 
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you 
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.



RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:



Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she 
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to 
respond to in this...



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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darcy James Argue
> Sent: 23 February 2008 18:54
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
> 
> 
> Hi Ray,
> 
> IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the 
> adjustment using  
> the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the 
> new F#C#AE  
> tuning.
> 



That's nothing ;)  I've played a piece where all four strings are
gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes,
to the point where the bridge falls down.  And when discussing this
piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the
soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be
prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant
humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc.  None of these has
happened yet.


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Chuck,

The discussion has not been about the difficulty of learning to play  
in an unfamiliar tuning, but rather the allegation that detuning a  
string instrument can cause serious, lasting problems to the  
instrument itself.


(I should add that the harmonic gliss passage from The Firebird under  
discussion is not at all difficult to play!)


Clearly, the issues are much different for jazz improvisers vs.  
learning to play a written passage that calls for an alternate tuning.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 3:44 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:


HI Darcy,

I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there  
is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short  
passages.  Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns  
for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more  
adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings  
than others.  I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in  
5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people  
find it advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements  
and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only  
get in my "home" tuning of 4ths.  I know this is a limitation of my  
brain function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed  
and a little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope  
with unfamiliar tunings.  I'm sure this can be overcome with  
practice, (people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know  
the old system of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth  
from it with relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it.


Just my 2 cents.

Chuck


On Feb 23, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Also:

If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more  
concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior  
instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting  
tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and  
serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you  
would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to  
play a piece that called for alternate tuning.


I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and  
superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of  
orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an  
orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from  
the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to  
do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do  
the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just  
curious.



Thanks,
RBH


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230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Chuck Israels]

HI Darcy,

I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there is  
a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short  
passages.  Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns for  
controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more adept at  
the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings than  
others.  I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in 5ths  
(too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people find it  
advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements and  
fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only get in  
my "home" tuning of 4ths.  I know this is a limitation of my brain  
function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed and a  
little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope with  
unfamiliar tunings.  I'm sure this can be overcome with practice,  
(people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know the old system  
of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth from it with  
relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it.


Just my 2 cents.

Chuck


On Feb 23, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Also:

If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more  
concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior  
instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning  
problems this might cause would be even more exposed and serious for  
a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect  
soloists to be more reluctant than section players to play a piece  
that called for alternate tuning.


I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and  
superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of  
orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an  
orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from  
the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to  
do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the  
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.



Thanks,
RBH


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230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

Also:

If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern  
for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and  
must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this  
might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so  
if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be  
more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for  
alternate tuning.


I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and  
superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral  
string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral  
warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place  
as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that  
falls outside of their usual comfort zone.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the  
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.



Thanks,
RBH


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 1:42 PM -0500 2/23/08, John Howell wrote:


We've just been going through some wild weather swings that have 
affected all the stringed instruments, and I can guarantee that the 
tuning variations people are finding when they open their cases are 
LESS than most of the scordature we've been discussing!


Sorry!  What I meant to write, of course, was "MORE than most of the 
scordature we've been discussing!"  And that doesn't even count the 
cellist who bumped her cello in rehearsal this morning and made the C 
peg completely unravel and the string pop out of the tailpiece.  Pull 
it back up to pitch and everything's fine.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Ray,

IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using  
the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE  
tuning.


The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote:


Solos are different.

Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the  
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.



Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:
There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's  
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two  
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The  
process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into  
the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded  
the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was  
incredible.


I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good  
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.


--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in  
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave  
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:


http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But  
if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get  
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you  
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.



RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:



Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she  
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to  
respond to in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 3:53 AM -0500 2/23/08, dhbailey wrote:

Ray Horton wrote:
I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But 
if I read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get 
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you 
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.




And understandably so -- it's easy to ask for something which gives 
a unique sound, but it's not always practical.  And you can't expect 
people with extremely expensive instruments to go doing things which 
will render that instrument all but useless for a week or so as it 
settles back into standard tuning.


But the point is that it won't!!!  What we've been discussing is very 
minor tuning variations that will have NO permanent and virtually NO 
temporary effect on the instruments at all.  And what's been lurking 
in back of this discussion--with all due respect to your daughter, 
Ray--is players who have been carefully taught that there is one and 
only one Right and Proper way to deal with the tool of their trade, 
which happens also to be a musical instrument, and it simply 'taint 
so!!  We've just been going through some wild weather swings that 
have affected all the stringed instruments, and I can guarantee that 
the tuning variations people are finding when they open their cases 
are LESS than most of the scordature we've been discussing!


Most singers are trained the same way, of course, and you've got to 
have a baritone with no inhibitions and no fear if he's going to sing 
Orff's "Carmina Burana"!


What composers want is one thing -- what all but the most highly 
paid orchestras can give them may be something else entirely.  :-)


I think Beethoven had the answer to that:  "I write the music; you 
figure out how to play it!"


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Solos are different. 



Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know?  Do the 
strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece?  Just curious.



Thanks,
RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:
There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's 
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two 
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process 
of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. 
I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with 
the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible.


I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good 
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.


--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in 
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave 
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:


http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27 



Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But if 
I read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get 
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk 
to, at least the ones with good instruments.



RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:



Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she 
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond 
to in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[dhbailey]

shirling & neueweise wrote:



Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said 
"That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to 
in this...





Ah, just put some Scruggs pegs on the thing and have done with 
scordatura problems!  ;-)



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[dhbailey]

Ray Horton wrote:
I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But if I 
read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get 
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk 
to, at least the ones with good instruments.




And understandably so -- it's easy to ask for something which gives a 
unique sound, but it's not always practical.  And you can't expect 
people with extremely expensive instruments to go doing things which 
will render that instrument all but useless for a week or so as it 
settles back into standard tuning.  And you can't expect those same 
people to have any other instruments which they can "sacrifice" in the 
same way, either.


What composers want is one thing -- what all but the most highly paid 
orchestras can give them may be something else entirely.  :-)


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Darcy James Argue]

There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's  
(2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two  
strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process  
of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music.  
I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with  
the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible.


I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good  
instrument," and not a beater fiddle.


--

Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in  
fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave  
lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview:


http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:

I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But if  
I read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get  
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you  
talk to, at least the ones with good instruments.



RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:



Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she  
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond  
to in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string."  But if I 
read you incorrectly, I apologize.



My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician.  You will get 
similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk 
to, at least the ones with good instruments.



RBH


shirling & neueweise wrote:



Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said 
"That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to 
in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Horn players might rebel "bells up" because of difficulty, but that's a 
shame, because it's a neat effect and sound and the conductor can 
insist.  It is also quite standard now, since Mahler has become 
routine.  (How about the horns standing in the Mahler First?  That still 
does not always happen.) 



The Seattle clarinetist, if his reasoning, was as you say, was an 
idiot.  Every wind instrument needs to be babied to play in tune.



I addressed some of the problems string players have with detuning in 
another message. 



I believe that the Saint-Saens Dance-Macabre is usually played as 
written.  The solo violinist usually has plenty of time to check over 
his/her whole instrument before the next work, or may have two 
instruments. 



RBH



John Howell wrote:

At 3:27 PM -0500 2/22/08, Ray Horton wrote:

---
These exceptions MAY be played, but these are in pieces firmly in the 
standard rep.  An unknown composer bring his/her scordatura passage 
with "violin playing several notes below its range" into a symphony 
rehearsal will get nowhere.  Yes, I know this may sound like the 
problems Berlioz and other greats had with innovation, but they 
managed to get the best new sounds out of instruments after working 
with the players.  When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G 
string, she said "That's why God made violas."


Define "good violinist"!  I've known a lot of horn players who refuse 
to follow "Bells Up" instructions, too, but it is a different sound. 
And the principal clarinetist in the Seattle Symphony when I was 
growing up in the '40s and '50s refused to alter his embouchure to 
bring notes into tune, believing that the clarinet could not be played 
in tune and so should not be played in tune.  Lots of people have 
strange ideas that make perfect sense to them.


Probably the most famous scordatura in the standard repertoire is the 
Devil's violin tuned to the tritone A - D# for the opening of "Dance 
Macabre."  Sure, it can be played as double stops, but that isn't the 
sound the composer wanted.  I can't remember whether it comes back 
later on in scordatura, but I'm pretty sure this is a case where the 
concertmaster would bring a spare fiddle that had settled into that 
tuning.  Just as the fiddlers would probably bring their carbon fiber 
bows if asked to play col legno.  In earlier, baroque solo music, 
scordatura was a fairly standard technique, and violas d'amore were 
regularly used in different tunings, but as i commented earlier, the 
gut strings were a lot more forgiving.


John



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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[shirling & neueweise]

Tread carefully.
For starters, the violinist is my daughter.


in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-)

mouthclosedmodeON

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she 
said "That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond 
to in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Tonight at intermission of our performance of Berlioz "Romeo and 
Juliet"  (now that is some orchestration - still crazy after all these 
years) I asked a couple of cellists about the _Pines of Rome_ example:



>3]# Ottorino Respighi's tone poem The Pines of Rome requires the 
cellos to tune the low C string down to a B in the third movement. Also, 
the basses must either have a fifth low B string or tune a C extension 
down to the B in the >third and fourth movements.



They both recall it as the fourth movement, with the basses.  They said 
usually some of the section will detune, but sometimes none.  One player 
said "scordatura messes up everything.  Moving one string changes the 
tension of the other strings.  I have done it only when I can memorize 
exactly 4 and 1/2 turns of the fine tuning peg or whatever so I can turn 
it back without interfering with anything else, but it's best to avoid 
it altogether."



It would be interesting to see a whole section of violins bring in two 
instruments to play the Firebird - they all have an outdoor instrument 
at home, after all. 



Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra



Owain Sutton wrote:

It's the 1919 (or 1918?!) suite I'm thinking of, yes.  I've never seen
anything other than much-abused rental copies of the parts...

I've discussed with a number of people about the apparent difficulty of
getting back in tune afterwards.  Many say 'oh no, impossible', without
even considering the details.  Some go with me, that tuning the string
correctly followed by keeping track of how much you turn the adjuster to
lower by a tone means you can silently return to something pretty damn
close (and it's not as if string players never adjust their tuning while
performing, anyway).  I've yet to find a situation where I can persuade
a conductor to try this out, though.



  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Horton

Sent: 22 February 2008 23:48
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura


Owain, is it in all the versions of the _Firebird_?  
Especially, is it 
in the 1918 suite that is the most often played?  The old 
Kalmus set of 
parts to the 1918 suite was full of errors.  There is a new, 
Kalmus set, 
edited by Clark McAlister that is much better. 



I agree that this could be an astonishing affect, but if the first 
violinists do not get their E strings tuned well for the rest of the 
work, the effect could be equally astonishing.



On the other topic - Many composers do not exceed fff.  Tchaik is, of 
course infamous for abusing fs and ps the most. 


RBH


Owain Sutton wrote:


[1} I suspect that violinists do not detune for the
_Firebird_ passage ...


No, it's routinely ignored: it's an instruction to tune the 
  
E string 

down to D for the harmonic glissandos in the introduction, and is 
instead generally played an octave lower, matching the 
  
second violins. 

Which is a shame, because we're missing out on an 
  
astonishing effect 

Stravinsky created.  Many players have never even wondered 
  
what those 

funny French words mean - I asked a player with the 
  
orchestra of the 

Royal Opera House (i.e. the Royal Ballet!), and she'd never thought 
about it.  This problem is compounded, if I recall correctly, by a 
discrepancy between score and parts as to whether things are to be 
transposed up one or two octaves.  Note also that it's the 
  
first thing 

the 1st violins play, so the tuning down could be done while tuning 
the orchestra, with only the tuning back up again to be done during 
the performance.



(Incidentally, was it on this mailing list some time ago 
  
that somebody 

said Stravinsky never went above fff in dynamic markings?  
  
I noticed 

not long ago that the end of the Firebird has four Fs in the 1st 
violin

part.)


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Tread carefully. 



For starters, the violinist is my daughter.   



RBH

shirling & neueweise wrote:


When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said 
"That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to 
in this...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[shirling & neueweise]

When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said 
"That's why God made violas."


there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this...

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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[John Howell]

At 3:27 PM -0500 2/22/08, Ray Horton wrote:

---
These exceptions MAY be played, but these are in pieces firmly in 
the standard rep.  An unknown composer bring his/her scordatura 
passage with "violin playing several notes below its range" into a 
symphony rehearsal will get nowhere.  Yes, I know this may sound 
like the problems Berlioz and other greats had with innovation, but 
they managed to get the best new sounds out of instruments after 
working with the players.  When I asked a good violinist about 
detuning the G string, she said "That's why God made violas."


Define "good violinist"!  I've known a lot of horn players who refuse 
to follow "Bells Up" instructions, too, but it is a different sound. 
And the principal clarinetist in the Seattle Symphony when I was 
growing up in the '40s and '50s refused to alter his embouchure to 
bring notes into tune, believing that the clarinet could not be 
played in tune and so should not be played in tune.  Lots of people 
have strange ideas that make perfect sense to them.


Probably the most famous scordatura in the standard repertoire is the 
Devil's violin tuned to the tritone A - D# for the opening of "Dance 
Macabre."  Sure, it can be played as double stops, but that isn't the 
sound the composer wanted.  I can't remember whether it comes back 
later on in scordatura, but I'm pretty sure this is a case where the 
concertmaster would bring a spare fiddle that had settled into that 
tuning.  Just as the fiddlers would probably bring their carbon fiber 
bows if asked to play col legno.  In earlier, baroque solo music, 
scordatura was a fairly standard technique, and violas d'amore were 
regularly used in different tunings, but as i commented earlier, the 
gut strings were a lot more forgiving.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[John Howell]

At 4:09 PM -0600 2/22/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 > She didn't even know what scordatura is.

   - Original Message -
   From: David W. Fenton
   2. ask if the composer intends for the player to tune the bottom
   string down to accommodate the lower notes, and, if so, shouldn't
   there be a note advising the player about that.
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Having talked to several violists about the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante,
they all told me that they play in in E-flat at normal tuning rather than
in D on a re-tuned instrument. Has anyone found anyone who DOES play it as
Mozart wrote it?


This was discussed maybe 6 months or so ago on the ViolaList.  There 
are some pretty heavy hitters on that list, along with average 
players and amateurs.  Some said they definitely tuned up as Mozart 
wrote it.  Our orchestra performed it last spring and our viola 
soloist opted NOT to tune up, and while he had just as much technique 
and his instrument just as much projection as our violinist, it's the 
nature of the writing that the viola tends to get buried.  Mozart 
knew EXACTLY what he was doing (surprise, surprise!), and it really 
needs the extra tension to balance the violin's projection an octave 
or two lower.


Whether modern strings will take the added tension or not is, of 
course, an entirely separate question.  The gut strings used in 
Wolfie and Leopold's day were a lot more forgiving.   But yes, some 
DO choose to play it as Mozart wrote it, because they feel it works 
better.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[shirling & neueweise]

I've discussed with a number of people about the apparent difficulty 
of getting back in tune afterwards.


my understanding is that it has to do with how long the instrument 
has been "sitting" in the scordatura.  the instrument will adjust to 
whatever you give it (to an extent) and for this reason, some works 
always need to be played on an alternate instrument.


the main problem i have come across is the performer trying to 
explain that they can't play piece X on their instrument because of 
the changes in tuning to the instrument the piece requires to the 
person or institution/department they are trying to borrow an 
instrument from to play the piece in a concert programme also 
requiring a "normally-tuned" instrument.


i have checked on this thoroughly with a performer who consulted 
several luthiers for a piece which requires removal of two strings 
and scordatura of the remaining strings by an octave and confirmed 
that the worst thing that can happen is the tuning is so loose that 
the bridge shifts and has to be reset by a luthier.  the solution? 
visit a luthier beforehand and have the bridge placement measured 
extremely precisely in case of shifting.  there is no damage to the 
instrument if done properly, but the instrument (viola in this case) 
will take about a week to be able to "hold" the CDGA tuning again.


i have also had many discussions with piano tuners about prepared 
piano; one of the most knowledgeable ones i consulted said if the 
preparation is done and removed properly (professionally) and the 
composer has a minimal amount of respect for the instrument, you 
should without problem be able to play chopin immediately following a 
prepared piano piece (removing of course the preparation if you so 
desire).


if the piano "preparation" is made to perform a certain geoge brecht 
piece involving sledgehammers and saws, this last point may not apply 
100%...


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[Lora Crighton]

LOL!  The answer to "What does a copyist do?" is
clearly he/she hustles for work.

Oh - me too ;-)


--- Barbara Touburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hahaha! Me first, please! :)
> 
> dhbailey wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Me, too, please!
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti
So far tranquillo ogni turbato core,
Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore
Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti.
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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

It's the 1919 (or 1918?!) suite I'm thinking of, yes.  I've never seen
anything other than much-abused rental copies of the parts...

I've discussed with a number of people about the apparent difficulty of
getting back in tune afterwards.  Many say 'oh no, impossible', without
even considering the details.  Some go with me, that tuning the string
correctly followed by keeping track of how much you turn the adjuster to
lower by a tone means you can silently return to something pretty damn
close (and it's not as if string players never adjust their tuning while
performing, anyway).  I've yet to find a situation where I can persuade
a conductor to try this out, though.



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Horton
> Sent: 22 February 2008 23:48
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
> 
> 
> Owain, is it in all the versions of the _Firebird_?  
> Especially, is it 
> in the 1918 suite that is the most often played?  The old 
> Kalmus set of 
> parts to the 1918 suite was full of errors.  There is a new, 
> Kalmus set, 
> edited by Clark McAlister that is much better. 
> 
> 
> I agree that this could be an astonishing affect, but if the first 
> violinists do not get their E strings tuned well for the rest of the 
> work, the effect could be equally astonishing.
> 
> 
> On the other topic - Many composers do not exceed fff.  Tchaik is, of 
> course infamous for abusing fs and ps the most. 
> 
> RBH
> 
> 
> Owain Sutton wrote:
> >> [1} I suspect that violinists do not detune for the
> >> _Firebird_ passage ...
> >> 
> >
> >
> > No, it's routinely ignored: it's an instruction to tune the 
> E string 
> > down to D for the harmonic glissandos in the introduction, and is 
> > instead generally played an octave lower, matching the 
> second violins. 
> > Which is a shame, because we're missing out on an 
> astonishing effect 
> > Stravinsky created.  Many players have never even wondered 
> what those 
> > funny French words mean - I asked a player with the 
> orchestra of the 
> > Royal Opera House (i.e. the Royal Ballet!), and she'd never thought 
> > about it.  This problem is compounded, if I recall correctly, by a 
> > discrepancy between score and parts as to whether things are to be 
> > transposed up one or two octaves.  Note also that it's the 
> first thing 
> > the 1st violins play, so the tuning down could be done while tuning 
> > the orchestra, with only the tuning back up again to be done during 
> > the performance.
> >
> >
> > (Incidentally, was it on this mailing list some time ago 
> that somebody 
> > said Stravinsky never went above fff in dynamic markings?  
> I noticed 
> > not long ago that the end of the Firebird has four Fs in the 1st 
> > violin
> > part.)
> >
> >
> > ___
> >   
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> 


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Ray Horton]

Owain, is it in all the versions of the _Firebird_?  Especially, is it 
in the 1918 suite that is the most often played?  The old Kalmus set of 
parts to the 1918 suite was full of errors.  There is a new, Kalmus set, 
edited by Clark McAlister that is much better. 



I agree that this could be an astonishing affect, but if the first 
violinists do not get their E strings tuned well for the rest of the 
work, the effect could be equally astonishing.



On the other topic - Many composers do not exceed fff.  Tchaik is, of 
course infamous for abusing fs and ps the most. 


RBH


Owain Sutton wrote:
[1} I suspect that violinists do not detune for the 
_Firebird_ passage ...




No, it's routinely ignored: it's an instruction to tune the E string
down to D for the harmonic glissandos in the introduction, and is
instead generally played an octave lower, matching the second violins.
Which is a shame, because we're missing out on an astonishing effect
Stravinsky created.  Many players have never even wondered what those
funny French words mean - I asked a player with the orchestra of the
Royal Opera House (i.e. the Royal Ballet!), and she'd never thought
about it.  This problem is compounded, if I recall correctly, by a
discrepancy between score and parts as to whether things are to be
transposed up one or two octaves.  Note also that it's the first thing
the 1st violins play, so the tuning down could be done while tuning the
orchestra, with only the tuning back up again to be done during the
performance.


(Incidentally, was it on this mailing list some time ago that somebody
said Stravinsky never went above fff in dynamic markings?  I noticed not
long ago that the end of the Firebird has four Fs in the 1st violin
part.)


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? - Now Viola in Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante

[Wade KOTTER]

Marilyn McDonald used Mozart's tuning in a 1986 Smithsonian Chamber Orchestra 
recording with Jaap Schroeder on violin. I also heard them perform it live. The 
brilliant sound of the re-tuned viola was a revelation to me and gave me even 
greater respect for this wonderful work. Unfortunately, it appears that this 
recording is no longer available.

Wade Kotter

>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/22/08 3:09 PM >>>
> She didn't even know what scordatura is.
>   - Original Message -
>   From: David W. Fenton
>   2. ask if the composer intends for the player to tune the bottom
>   string down to accommodate the lower notes, and, if so, shouldn't
>   there be a note advising the player about that.
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Having talked to several violists about the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante,
they all told me that they play in in E-flat at normal tuning rather than
in D on a re-tuned instrument. Has anyone found anyone who DOES play it as
Mozart wrote it?

ajr


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RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura

[Owain Sutton]

> 
> [1} I suspect that violinists do not detune for the 
> _Firebird_ passage 
> but play it with artificial harmonics.  I will try to 
> remember to ask at 
> our concert this evening.


No, it's routinely ignored: it's an instruction to tune the E string
down to D for the harmonic glissandos in the introduction, and is
instead generally played an octave lower, matching the second violins.
Which is a shame, because we're missing out on an astonishing effect
Stravinsky created.  Many players have never even wondered what those
funny French words mean - I asked a player with the orchestra of the
Royal Opera House (i.e. the Royal Ballet!), and she'd never thought
about it.  This problem is compounded, if I recall correctly, by a
discrepancy between score and parts as to whether things are to be
transposed up one or two octaves.  Note also that it's the first thing
the 1st violins play, so the tuning down could be done while tuning the
orchestra, with only the tuning back up again to be done during the
performance.


(Incidentally, was it on this mailing list some time ago that somebody
said Stravinsky never went above fff in dynamic markings?  I noticed not
long ago that the end of the Firebird has four Fs in the 1st violin
part.)


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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[Barbara Touburg]

Hahaha! Me first, please! :)

dhbailey wrote:




Me, too, please!





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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[dhbailey]

Barbara Touburg wrote:
Ton Koopman had to do this for a series of Mozart concerts in Japan, 
the NMA

had no parts available for rent, so he used this as a solution, but I get
the impression he used a Xerox machine and glue sticks ;) 


Koopman (his name means merchant...) doesn't care a lot about how the 
music looks! (I know this from experience.)


I'm beginning to

get a lot of freelance work for early music precisely for this sort of
circumstance: the musicians or conductor have a score, but there are no
parts available. And they're just too busy to bother with learning 
Finale or

Sibelius. I'm not complaining though, the extra money is VERY nice.


Good for you! If you ever have too much work, I'd be happy to help out. 
I have lots of experience in early music.


Me, too, please!

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 22 Feb 2008 at 15:31, Christopher Smith wrote:

I have played parts that were scanned in from the score, then sliced  
into long ribbons and pasted with Photoshop into a new document, then  
printed. It was next to illegible. The guy thought he was saving  
copyists fees. He was an idiot. The performers were wasting so much  
brain CPU cycles on deciphering the parts that it never did sound as  
good as it could have.


Well, my viol consort plays from such sets of parts a lot, because 
we're using editions that have old-style clefs and no parts 
available. When the printed parts are in the wrong clefs, I create 
new ones, but if I had to do it for everything, it would take weeks 
of work to get ready for any prep. period for concerts.


I don't think it's all that bad.

On the other hand, we do have several weeks to prepare usually 
(though we did a Feb. 5th Ash Wednesday service with only 4 viol 
rehearsals -- it want fine, for the *viols*).





Working from photocopied/cut/taped parts isn't de facto bad -- it's only 
bad when it's a composer's very inadequate and illegible manuscript.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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