[Audyssey] Monopoly
Is there a way to delete boards you've created on the Monopoly board maker? Usually I can just go through the list with my arrow keys but, unfortunately with my UAC on it has boards that I created that doesn't show up in the c:\programs\kitchensinc folder. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi all, Is there no way to save a game of Monopoly? Surely you can't assume that you can finish one game in a single sitting? Best Regards, Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
Hellow, I've just downloaded Jim's games again. Can I delete a monopoly board I've created by mistake? I pressed enter on it by mistake when I was looking through the options, so ended up making it anyway. Haha. Thank you, Harmony. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
I noticed a bug in the Monopoly game. When a person goes bankrupt, and is removed from the game, it skips the next player. I played two games this morning, and it happened to me twice in the first game, and once in the second. I've excerpted portions of the transcript below, so that you can see what I mean. Elicia (a bot) goes bankrupt. It tells me that it's my turn, a few chat messages are exchanged, but I never get my turn. It goes straight to Ramiro. In addition, there seems to be a quirk with the houses and hotels. All 32 houses were gone, that's true, but we still had hotels available. But it wouldn't allow us to upgrade to hotels; it kept saying that you couldn't add a fourth house, even though the properties already had 4 houses, and we were trying to upgrade to hotels. It is now Elicia's turn. Elicia unmortgages Saint Charles Place for $77. Elicia rolls 6, 5. Elicia moves eleven spaces. He lands on Park Place. It is a Blue property. It is owned by ramiro, and it has a hotel. Elicia must pay rent of $1500. Elicia is bankrupt! Elicia is out of the game! It is now Loravara's turn. Elicia is watching. It is now ramiro's turn. Loravara is typing a message. Message from Loravara: I bet I'll join him shortly. raaj is typing a message. Message from raaj: hey take it easy. Ramiro rolls 1, 3. Ramiro moves four spaces. He lands on Connecticut Avenue. It is a Light Blue property. It is owned by raaj, and has two houses on it. Ramiro must pay rent of $100. It is now raaj's turn. It is now Elicia's turn. Elicia unmortgages Saint Charles Place for $77. Elicia rolls 6, 5. Elicia moves eleven spaces. He lands on Park Place. It is a Blue property. It is owned by ramiro, and it has a hotel. Elicia must pay rent of $1500. Elicia is bankrupt! Elicia is out of the game! It is now Loravara's turn. Elicia is watching. It is now ramiro's turn. Loravara is typing a message. Message from Loravara: I bet I'll join him shortly. raaj is typing a message. Message from raaj: hey take it easy. Ramiro rolls 1, 3. Ramiro moves four spaces. He lands on Connecticut Avenue. It is a Light Blue property. It is owned by raaj, and has two houses on it. Ramiro must pay rent of $100. It is now raaj's turn. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly.
I'm getting monopoly version 9 put on my laptop. Do you have to turn Jaws off to play it? Thanks, Diana Nowlin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] monopoly
Hi All, I just downloaded and installed Monopoly not long ago. I created my account and received my password successfully, then logged in without issue. The problem comes when foolish me didn't read the docs first and just jumped right in. I tried to join a game, but got too impatient, quitted and went back to the main menu, couldn't find an exit command so used alt f4. Now whenever I log onto the game, I can log on successfully, but I don't hear any of the music and my keystrokes are not received by the programme. I've tried reinstalling the game with the same results. Does anyone have any ideas how to fix this? I was really looking forward to getting a game in too, my username is aiden, in case anyone would like to join me once i've got this issue resolved. Aiden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi, I have put a new file up on my site. File name; winpolyx.exe File size; 1.2m bytes. In version 10 of Monopoly you choose a sound for your token. And the game now creates a monopolylog.txt file. The winpolyx.exe file can be found on my free windows sapi5 text to speech games page. Have fun. BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Phil, Just wanted to thank you for so many of the Monopoly token sound files. BTW You can add and share if you wish more token sound files. Just name the files monopolytoken*.wav. Such as monopolytokenHorse.wav Thanks again. BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] monopoly
Tom and others: Any thoughts on how we can get together somewhere and use Jim's Monopoly game set to play against each other? I used to play tournament games, and would like to play a game or two to see if I can still win. shepherds are the best beasts ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
[Audyssey] monopoly
Doing monopoly live on the net with people would rock. I get my friends to play it at my house, but over the net would rule! We could do this with other games too, like battleship or something...well I guess that would be formatted differently...or concentration??? I have never had anyone to play that against. Peace, Chris ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
Hello, As you might know, Mike F, Jayson Smith and myself have been working on a multiplayer Monopoly game. You can read about some details at www.rsgames.wordpress.com. I'd just like to let you all know that this game is almost complete. What's really holding a public alpha from being released is the lack of sounds. If you are interested in creating/finding sounds, please contact me. -Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi all, Has anyone found a monopoly game which you can play online which is accessible. I mean a game which sighted people would play, but which we could play along with them, without any adaptment or help? Ari --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Kurt. In the kitchinsinc directory, all the monopoly board files are just called monopolyboardname, as one word, for instance monopolyboardaircraft or monopolyboardbeatles, so you can just delete them as normal. to be honest though, from everything I've heard, why have you got uac on anyway? Almost every single program I've found advises you to turn it off if you want stuff to run properly on windows 7. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Curt Taubert" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 4:45 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Monopoly Is there a way to delete boards you've created on the Monopoly board maker? Usually I can just go through the list with my arrow keys but, unfortunately with my UAC on it has boards that I created that doesn't show up in the c:\programs\kitchensinc folder. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Well, I can answer that one. Microsoft's User Account Control, UAC, is a security system which is there to prevent users and applications from modifying secured files, folder, and programs without an admin level user name and password. This is similar to the program sudo found on Linux that performs essentually the same functionality. As a result the idea here is to prevent hackers, trojans, viruses, and worms from accessing restricted areas of the operating system. Generally it is a good idea to use UAC for that additional layer of security, but unfortunately not everything written for Windows is UAC compliant. For example, if you download one of Jim Kitchens games, say Football, it will save all the season standings, settings, etc to data files in the Kitchensinc folder. Well, because Microsoft was extremely lax on security issues on 9t5, 98, Millennium, XP, etc it was perfectly ok to do that. So we can't blame developers like Jim for saving data to the installation directory because it was the easiest thing to do. However, with Vista and now Windows 7 Microsoft decided to get security conscious and have created User Account Control similar to sudo on Linux to prevent programs from accessing various secured areas on the hard drive including Program Files and Program Files (x86) which unfortunately is where many games save their data to. With UAC enabled Windows 7 assumes the game is attempting to illegally access said directories and sometimes said program crashes because its being blocked by UAC. One of the best ways to fix said problems is to turn off UAC, but in doing so you end up removing that extra layer of security in the process. What I do instead is right click on the program's icon select admin, and press enter. This launches the app as administrator and I can leave UAC on so that I get both the security as well as play older games that haven't been updated with UAC compatibility. I think most people tell end users to turn UAC off simply because they don't know how to get around it. There are several ways to set up an app and make it coexist with UAC without disabling UAC. One way is to install the app locally in c:\users\username\programs which means it will run locally for that individual user. Another way is to click on the icon and select run as admin from the pull down menu. Finally, on Windows 7 Ultimate there is a way to customize UAC so it will not block certain programs. So there isn't any need to disable UAC if you know how to run older programs on Windows 7 correctly. Cheers! On 3/9/12, dark wrote: > Hi Kurt. > > In the kitchinsinc directory, all the monopoly board files are just called > monopolyboardname, as one word, for instance monopolyboardaircraft or > monopolyboardbeatles, so you can just delete them as normal. > > to be honest though, from everything I've heard, why have you got uac on > anyway? Almost every single program I've found advises you to turn it off > if you want stuff to run properly on windows 7. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Thanks for the info, will try on a windows 7 test pc I have set up upstairs later. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 10 March 2012 09:34 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I can answer that one. Microsoft's User Account Control, UAC, is a security system which is there to prevent users and applications from modifying secured files, folder, and programs without an admin level user name and password. This is similar to the program sudo found on Linux that performs essentually the same functionality. As a result the idea here is to prevent hackers, trojans, viruses, and worms from accessing restricted areas of the operating system. Generally it is a good idea to use UAC for that additional layer of security, but unfortunately not everything written for Windows is UAC compliant. For example, if you download one of Jim Kitchens games, say Football, it will save all the season standings, settings, etc to data files in the Kitchensinc folder. Well, because Microsoft was extremely lax on security issues on 9t5, 98, Millennium, XP, etc it was perfectly ok to do that. So we can't blame developers like Jim for saving data to the installation directory because it was the easiest thing to do. However, with Vista and now Windows 7 Microsoft decided to get security conscious and have created User Account Control similar to sudo on Linux to prevent programs from accessing various secured areas on the hard drive including Program Files and Program Files (x86) which unfortunately is where many games save their data to. With UAC enabled Windows 7 assumes the game is attempting to illegally access said directories and sometimes said program crashes because its being blocked by UAC. One of the best ways to fix said problems is to turn off UAC, but in doing so you end up removing that extra layer of security in the process. What I do instead is right click on the program's icon select admin, and press enter. This launches the app as administrator and I can leave UAC on so that I get both the security as well as play older games that haven't been updated with UAC compatibility. I think most people tell end users to turn UAC off simply because they don't know how to get around it. There are several ways to set up an app and make it coexist with UAC without disabling UAC. One way is to install the app locally in c:\users\username\programs which means it will run locally for that individual user. Another way is to click on the icon and select run as admin from the pull down menu. Finally, on Windows 7 Ultimate there is a way to customize UAC so it will not block certain programs. So there isn't any need to disable UAC if you know how to run older programs on Windows 7 correctly. Cheers! On 3/9/12, dark wrote: > Hi Kurt. > > In the kitchinsinc directory, all the monopoly board files are just > called monopolyboardname, as one word, for instance > monopolyboardaircraft or monopolyboardbeatles, so you can just delete them as normal. > > to be honest though, from everything I've heard, why have you got uac > on anyway? Almost every single program I've found advises you to turn > it off if you want stuff to run properly on windows 7. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4860 - Release Date: 03/09/12 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4860 - Release Date: 03/09/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Its one reason I liked linux security tom. There shouldn't be any reason you need to change anything, most stuff in linux doesn't even need security unless its system spaciffic. Windows on the other hand wants uac for everything thats not sertified. I have a couple systems, one with uac and one without. The one without ran much faster so there definately is a performance lag of some note. I guess one system was a dulecore the other a quad so maybe that was the problem. But the point is, without uac the stuff ran faster. However one major advantage of uac is you can lock programs to a user account. So all my games, and everything could be locked to my user account. Everyone else that got the system on would just see office and some other generic stuff I allowed access to normal users. Ofcause I have no idea what I'd do, even with search which I can kill if I care to. I have 2 systems, both are not mine and I don't care what they are set at as every app is for the whole box anyway. At 04:34 a.m. 10/03/2012 -0500, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, I can answer that one. Microsoft's User Account Control, UAC, is a security system which is there to prevent users and applications from modifying secured files, folder, and programs without an admin level user name and password. This is similar to the program sudo found on Linux that performs essentually the same functionality. As a result the idea here is to prevent hackers, trojans, viruses, and worms from accessing restricted areas of the operating system. Generally it is a good idea to use UAC for that additional layer of security, but unfortunately not everything written for Windows is UAC compliant. For example, if you download one of Jim Kitchens games, say Football, it will save all the season standings, settings, etc to data files in the Kitchensinc folder. Well, because Microsoft was extremely lax on security issues on 9t5, 98, Millennium, XP, etc it was perfectly ok to do that. So we can't blame developers like Jim for saving data to the installation directory because it was the easiest thing to do. However, with Vista and now Windows 7 Microsoft decided to get security conscious and have created User Account Control similar to sudo on Linux to prevent programs from accessing various secured areas on the hard drive including Program Files and Program Files (x86) which unfortunately is where many games save their data to. With UAC enabled Windows 7 assumes the game is attempting to illegally access said directories and sometimes said program crashes because its being blocked by UAC. One of the best ways to fix said problems is to turn off UAC, but in doing so you end up removing that extra layer of security in the process. What I do instead is right click on the program's icon select admin, and press enter. This launches the app as administrator and I can leave UAC on so that I get both the security as well as play older games that haven't been updated with UAC compatibility. I think most people tell end users to turn UAC off simply because they don't know how to get around it. There are several ways to set up an app and make it coexist with UAC without disabling UAC. One way is to install the app locally in c:\users\username\programs which means it will run locally for that individual user. Another way is to click on the icon and select run as admin from the pull down menu. Finally, on Windows 7 Ultimate there is a way to customize UAC so it will not block certain programs. So there isn't any need to disable UAC if you know how to run older programs on Windows 7 correctly. Cheers! On 3/9/12, dark wrote: > Hi Kurt. > > In the kitchinsinc directory, all the monopoly board files are just called > monopolyboardname, as one word, for instance monopolyboardaircraft or > monopolyboardbeatles, so you can just delete them as normal. > > to be honest though, from everything I've heard, why have you got uac on > anyway? Almost every single program I've found advises you to turn it off > if you want stuff to run properly on windows 7. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, Very true. However, there is a big difference between how Linux and Windows handles user management and security. Linux security is less of a hassle from a user perspective simply because it has always been there from day one, and because of that all or most programs automatically save personal and custom data to your home directory. With Windows you use to be able to save personal data anywhere and everywhere you wanted and now that UAC is here both users and programs find it a hassle because all those non-UAC compliant apps have to be rewritten and updated to work with UAC. As to your issue of performence hard to say. I've not noticed any performence issues with UAC enabled, but it wouldn't suprise me if it does use some of your system resources. The reason is that UAC is a system service that is always running in the background as a watchdog service. On other operating systems such as Linux sudo is launched manually if and when an admin task or program needs to be performed. Otherwise its not running in the background the way UAC is. Cheers! On 3/10/12, shaun everiss wrote: > Its one reason I liked linux security tom. > There shouldn't be any reason you need to change anything, most stuff > in linux doesn't even need security unless its system spaciffic. > Windows on the other hand wants uac for everything thats not sertified. > I have a couple systems, one with uac and one without. > The one without ran much faster so there definately is a performance > lag of some note. > I guess one system was a dulecore the other a quad so maybe that was > the problem. > But the point is, without uac the stuff ran faster. > However one major advantage of uac is you can lock programs to a user > account. > So all my games, and everything could be locked to my user account. > Everyone else that got the system on would just see office and some > other generic stuff I allowed access to normal users. > Ofcause I have no idea what I'd do, even with search which I can kill > if I care to. > I have 2 systems, both are not mine and I don't care what they are > set at as every app is for the whole box anyway. > At 04:34 a.m. 10/03/2012 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi Dark, >> >>Well, I can answer that one. Microsoft's User Account Control, UAC, is >>a security system which is there to prevent users and applications >>from modifying secured files, folder, and programs without an admin >>level user name and password. This is similar to the program sudo >>found on Linux that performs essentually the same functionality. As a >>result the idea here is to prevent hackers, trojans, viruses, and >>worms from accessing restricted areas of the operating system. >>Generally it is a good idea to use UAC for that additional layer of >>security, but unfortunately not everything written for Windows is UAC >>compliant. >> >>For example, if you download one of Jim Kitchens games, say Football, >>it will save all the season standings, settings, etc to data files in >>the Kitchensinc folder. Well, because Microsoft was extremely lax on >>security issues on 9t5, 98, Millennium, XP, etc it was perfectly ok to >>do that. So we can't blame developers like Jim for saving data to the >>installation directory because it was the easiest thing to do. >> >>However, with Vista and now Windows 7 Microsoft decided to get >>security conscious and have created User Account Control similar to >>sudo on Linux to prevent programs from accessing various secured areas >>on the hard drive including Program Files and Program Files (x86) >>which unfortunately is where many games save their data to. With UAC >>enabled Windows 7 assumes the game is attempting to illegally access >>said directories and sometimes said program crashes because its being >>blocked by UAC. One of the best ways to fix said problems is to turn >>off UAC, but in doing so you end up removing that extra layer of >>security in the process. What I do instead is right click on the >>program's icon select admin, and press enter. This launches the app as >>administrator and I can leave UAC on so that I get both the security >>as well as play older games that haven't been updated with UAC >>compatibility. >> >>I think most people tell end users to turn UAC off simply because they >>don't know how to get around it. There are several ways to set up an >>app and make it coexist with UAC without disabling UAC. One way is to >>install the app locally in >>c:\users\username\programs >>which means it will run locally for that individual user. Another way >>is to click on the icon and select run as admin from the pull down >>menu. Finally, on Windows 7 Ultimate there is a way to customize UAC >>so it will not block certain programs. So there isn't any need to >>disable UAC if you know how to run older programs on Windows 7 >>correctly. >> >>Cheers! >> >> >>On 3/9/12, dark wrote: >> > Hi Kurt. >> > >> > In the kitchinsinc directory, all the monopoly board files are just >> > called >> > monopolyboardn
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. This makes sense, but once again it sounds like a stupidity of windows 7 done by microsoft which won't really be of bennifit to most people. For instance, I like to personally separate my games, if interpreters and such frokm important programs like avg, supernova, and any windows components I need. That way, if I'm testing a game, it doesn't matter if I have to go into the folder and muck about with the directory manually, so I have all my games and such installed in a folder called fun program files. This would be totally impossible on windows 7, furthermore the uac would prevent me from mucking about in that folder, copying game files, such as storing extra rail racer tracks, or copying stuff into those files. once again a reason why i really don't want windows 7, even apart from the interface, and with all the problems I've mentioned before caused by user account errors on xp, I'm not really inclined to trust a similar and even more restrictive system on windows 7. That's why I personally just have avg antivirus to deal with spyware and such, and avg pc tuneup to deal with registry errors, junk files, disk defragging and the like, which seems to work fine. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I can answer that one. Microsoft's User Account Control, UAC, is a security system which is there to prevent users and applications from modifying secured files, folder, and programs without an admin level user name and password. This is similar to the program sudo found on Linux that performs essentually the same functionality. As a result the idea here is to prevent hackers, trojans, viruses, and worms from accessing restricted areas of the operating system. Generally it is a good idea to use UAC for that additional layer of security, but unfortunately not everything written for Windows is UAC compliant. For example, if you download one of Jim Kitchens games, say Football, it will save all the season standings, settings, etc to data files in the Kitchensinc folder. Well, because Microsoft was extremely lax on security issues on 9t5, 98, Millennium, XP, etc it was perfectly ok to do that. So we can't blame developers like Jim for saving data to the installation directory because it was the easiest thing to do. However, with Vista and now Windows 7 Microsoft decided to get security conscious and have created User Account Control similar to sudo on Linux to prevent programs from accessing various secured areas on the hard drive including Program Files and Program Files (x86) which unfortunately is where many games save their data to. With UAC enabled Windows 7 assumes the game is attempting to illegally access said directories and sometimes said program crashes because its being blocked by UAC. One of the best ways to fix said problems is to turn off UAC, but in doing so you end up removing that extra layer of security in the process. What I do instead is right click on the program's icon select admin, and press enter. This launches the app as administrator and I can leave UAC on so that I get both the security as well as play older games that haven't been updated with UAC compatibility. I think most people tell end users to turn UAC off simply because they don't know how to get around it. There are several ways to set up an app and make it coexist with UAC without disabling UAC. One way is to install the app locally in c:\users\username\programs which means it will run locally for that individual user. Another way is to click on the icon and select run as admin from the pull down menu. Finally, on Windows 7 Ultimate there is a way to customize UAC so it will not block certain programs. So there isn't any need to disable UAC if you know how to run older programs on Windows 7 correctly. Cheers! On 3/9/12, dark wrote: Hi Kurt. In the kitchinsinc directory, all the monopoly board files are just called monopolyboardname, as one word, for instance monopolyboardaircraft or monopolyboardbeatles, so you can just delete them as normal. to be honest though, from everything I've heard, why have you got uac on anyway? Almost every single program I've found advises you to turn it off if you want stuff to run properly on windows 7. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I aggree, if windows security ran like linux security we wouldn't have a problem. Most stuff works and thats fine. I have not experimented, but I guess I could try the home folder rout though since windows never natively handled it right before its going to be a heck of a learning curve. As it is ie as well to the protections it has in xp has a protected mode that does not impact accessability software or at least nvda anyway. Then there is the performance lag, its a bit of a non reason to have it enabled. Its why in a lot of oses stuff like visuals and a lot of security is disabled, well all that causes issues because ms have never writen anything, ok besides msse maybe in the security department that doesn't have some issue or other. Dark, seriously the win7 interface is not that bad, takes a bit to learn, the win8 interface now thats a major jump but I'm sure I will grow to like it. Ofcause it doesn't help that game devs though on the way to changing have been for the last 10 years have been using old languages, vb6 and older for example for their games. Dotnet and c++ programming is still new for us really, with only a few titles round the place. Hopefully bgt will eaven that score some. However with that all going for it, we still have a large persentage of our games, in fact bat 1-2% of our games that are converted most are still using old code. Some will change but not all. Some can't be bothered and some have other reasons not to upgrade. And then there is the effort to transfer, most stuff by mainstream standards is quite simple and therefore I'd imagion the willingness to port just for a new os may not be there for maybe the smaller devs, I'd feel the same. And it sounds like with win8 in nay case that every old concept of accessability is out the window, msaa, mirror drivers and it appears even sapi, as I have had some people online saying sapi on games doesn't work at all. So the entire market will change. The vm seems to be the only way to get games going. Though since the ms vm will have the same code on it that could become a security risk for game devs since you could happily share codes even for hardware because the os id would be the same for the vm unless I am not getting it right. One things for sure, we are going to have to radically change everything and I am not sure if we can or at least can fast. At 01:03 p.m. 10/03/2012 +, you wrote: Hi Tom. This makes sense, but once again it sounds like a stupidity of windows 7 done by microsoft which won't really be of bennifit to most people. For instance, I like to personally separate my games, if interpreters and such frokm important programs like avg, supernova, and any windows components I need. That way, if I'm testing a game, it doesn't matter if I have to go into the folder and muck about with the directory manually, so I have all my games and such installed in a folder called fun program files. This would be totally impossible on windows 7, furthermore the uac would prevent me from mucking about in that folder, copying game files, such as storing extra rail racer tracks, or copying stuff into those files. once again a reason why i really don't want windows 7, even apart from the interface, and with all the problems I've mentioned before caused by user account errors on xp, I'm not really inclined to trust a similar and even more restrictive system on windows 7. That's why I personally just have avg antivirus to deal with spyware and such, and avg pc tuneup to deal with registry errors, junk files, disk defragging and the like, which seems to work fine. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I can answer that one. Microsoft's User Account Control, UAC, is a security system which is there to prevent users and applications from modifying secured files, folder, and programs without an admin level user name and password. This is similar to the program sudo found on Linux that performs essentually the same functionality. As a result the idea here is to prevent hackers, trojans, viruses, and worms from accessing restricted areas of the operating system. Generally it is a good idea to use UAC for that additional layer of security, but unfortunately not everything written for Windows is UAC compliant. For example, if you download one of Jim Kitchens games, say Football, it will save all the season standings, settings, etc to data files in the Kitchensinc folder. Well, because Microsoft was extremely lax on security issues on 9t5, 98, Millennium, XP, etc it was perfectly ok to do that. So we can't blame developers like Jim for saving data to the installation directory because it was the easiest thing to do. Howeve
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Actually, you could do the same thing on Windows 7 as XP. Just install them locally. What I do in cases of say the Kitchensinc games is install them to c:\Users\Thomas\Programs\Kitchensinc and then I don't have to worry about UAC. The reason is that any thing installed to your local directory has read, write, and execute privileges without having to run it as an administrator. So what you want to do is not impossible on Windows 7 as you assume. For example, if your user name was Dark you could create a directory called c:\Users\DarkFun Program Files and install every game you have into that directory. If you want to muck around with the files and folders you can because its not in a restricted area. Plus since there is an icon to your home directory on Windows 7 all you have to do is control-escape, tab to the right pain, down arrow to the Dark icon, press enter and there is all your personal directories like My Documents, Downloads, Program Files, whatever you have in your home directory. By creating a local Program Files for non-UAC compliant apps you can do anything and everything you normally do on XP without worrying about UAC causing issues. Again this is largely a case of misinformation and misunderstanding of Windows 7. I understand your worries and concerns but Windows 7 is not the monster you and others make it out to be. Neither is UAC. It just requires doing things a bit different from the way you have always done which I think is the real issue here. People are so set in their ways, so use to doing things one way, that they complain about Windows 7 when they have to do things a bit differently like install their old games to a local directory rather than c:\Program Files in order to run them with UAC. Its no big deal. However, if people don't know that then they will run into compatibility issues on Win 7. Its ignorance of how to get around issues like this more than anything else. Cheers! On 3/10/2012 8:03 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. This makes sense, but once again it sounds like a stupidity of windows 7 done by microsoft which won't really be of bennifit to most people. For instance, I like to personally separate my games, if interpreters and such frokm important programs like avg, supernova, and any windows components I need. That way, if I'm testing a game, it doesn't matter if I have to go into the folder and muck about with the directory manually, so I have all my games and such installed in a folder called fun program files. This would be totally impossible on windows 7, furthermore the uac would prevent me from mucking about in that folder, copying game files, such as storing extra rail racer tracks, or copying stuff into those files. once again a reason why i really don't want windows 7, even apart from the interface, and with all the problems I've mentioned before caused by user account errors on xp, I'm not really inclined to trust a similar and even more restrictive system on windows 7. That's why I personally just have avg antivirus to deal with spyware and such, and avg pc tuneup to deal with registry errors, junk files, disk defragging and the like, which seems to work fine. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. well it is true that I didn't know about creating local user directories for installation like that, however a lot of reluctance with windows 7 is based on actual experience I've had with the user interface. I for instance like my computer laid out logically with many directories and folders, and use windows explorer constantly to go and find the stuff I want, just as if I was picking them off a book shelf. For instance I have a folder in the programs menue called audio games, within which are folders for gma, bsc, blind adrenalin etc. I have tried the windows 7 search box, but strongly dislike it, sinse I always prefer looking through the material I have and being able to review it, and those user interface functions are just plane not! there on windows 7 sinse microsoft went for a flashy, ridiculous ui that is hell for a screen reader. I know classic shell will help with this, but if I'm going to make every effort to turn windows 7 into xp, what's the point in windows 7 anyway? it's not as if there really is that much i want to do that requires it, indeed a lot of the things i do with computers will be blocked by having it. That is why, though I may well have to get a windows 7 machine if my desktop gives up the ghost, I'm not in the least looking forward to it. Frankly I wish microsoft had just carried on with a better version of xp rather than changing the entire interface, layout, architecture and everything else to something that is far less screen reader friendly. Though i have actually heard windows 8 is to have better compatibility with older programs sinse so many people disliked the way windows 7 broke this, which is a point in it's favour over 7. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Actually, you could do the same thing on Windows 7 as XP. Just install them locally. What I do in cases of say the Kitchensinc games is install them to c:\Users\Thomas\Programs\Kitchensinc and then I don't have to worry about UAC. The reason is that any thing installed to your local directory has read, write, and execute privileges without having to run it as an administrator. So what you want to do is not impossible on Windows 7 as you assume. For example, if your user name was Dark you could create a directory called c:\Users\DarkFun Program Files and install every game you have into that directory. If you want to muck around with the files and folders you can because its not in a restricted area. Plus since there is an icon to your home directory on Windows 7 all you have to do is control-escape, tab to the right pain, down arrow to the Dark icon, press enter and there is all your personal directories like My Documents, Downloads, Program Files, whatever you have in your home directory. By creating a local Program Files for non-UAC compliant apps you can do anything and everything you normally do on XP without worrying about UAC causing issues. Again this is largely a case of misinformation and misunderstanding of Windows 7. I understand your worries and concerns but Windows 7 is not the monster you and others make it out to be. Neither is UAC. It just requires doing things a bit different from the way you have always done which I think is the real issue here. People are so set in their ways, so use to doing things one way, that they complain about Windows 7 when they have to do things a bit differently like install their old games to a local directory rather than c:\Program Files in order to run them with UAC. Its no big deal. However, if people don't know that then they will run into compatibility issues on Win 7. Its ignorance of how to get around issues like this more than anything else. Cheers! On 3/10/2012 8:03 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. This makes sense, but once again it sounds like a stupidity of windows 7 done by microsoft which won't really be of bennifit to most people. For instance, I like to personally separate my games, if interpreters and such frokm important programs like avg, supernova, and any windows components I need. That way, if I'm testing a game, it doesn't matter if I have to go into the folder and muck about with the directory manually, so I have all my games and such installed in a folder called fun program files. This would be totally impossible on windows 7, furthermore the uac would prevent me from mucking about in that folder, copying game files, such as storing extra rail racer tracks, or copying stuff into those files. once again a reason why i really don't want windows 7, even apart from the interface, and with all the problems I've mentioned before caused by user account errors on xp, I'm not really inclined to trust a
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, Well, fortunately for us Windows user account management has largely improved thanks to the fact Mac OS and Linux have been giving them some serious competition over the last few years. As a result with User Account Control and new user management systems Microsoft has been trying to get developers and users into using the home directory rather than sticking files in other places where they don't belong. For a Linux user like myself saving settings, personal files, and even installing programs locally in my home directory is nothing new. However, for Windows users who have not had that experience it is going to be a bit of a learning curve figuring out what goes in home and what belongs in system directories. As for using old languages I think we've talked that issue to death. It comes down to personal preference, and some developers simply have no desire to learn a new language and new techniques to become fully Windows 7 and UAC compliant. In some cases I can understand the reasons behind the developer's decision even if I don't agree with it from an end user perspective. For example, even if Jim Kitchen started learning Visual Basic 2010 tomorrow it would be a massive undertaking to convert all of his text to speech games to Visual Basic 2010. There are too many changes between VB 6 and VB 2010 to easily convert them. As a result all of his games would require a rewrite from scratch which is a huge undertaking. Even though as an end user I'd love to see this happen the reality is its too much work to be practical for Jim, and I can't blame him for not wanting to do this when he is still running XP as well as a number of other VI users. A lot of audio game developers are in the same situation, and we have to ask ourselves if the work involved is worth the effort in upgrading everything from scratch. A lot of developers say no, because the work involved is too much to be practical for them. The advantage that new developers have, such as myself, is that I didn't have a bunch of titles written in VB 6 etc when I got started so I had a lot more of a choice what language or languages to use. Plus I already had C and C++ in college and was in the process of upgrading my skills to C# and VB .NET which meant I already knew the newer languages and didn't have to learn it after the fact. That makes a big difference when we are talking about upgrading to Windows 7 or Windows 8 from a programming standpoint. As to your comments of Windows 8 those are way off. Sapi 5.5 is Sapi 5 compatible, is a standard Windows COM component, so I don't know where you get your information that it doesn't work. I've done some early testing with my own games and Sapi 5.5 is not that much different from 5.4 from a programming standpoint. Now, it is true that accesssibility has changed in Windows 8 but its nothing new. Windows 7 uses both MSAA and the newer Microsoft UI Automation API. the only difference here with Windows 8 is that Microsoft UI Automation is now the default accessibility framework for Windows and developers are encurraged to use it rather than MSAA on Windows 8. This requires a fairly recent screen reader to use it, but people running Jaws 13, WindowEyes 7.5, etc already have basic support for Microsoft UI Automation as screen reader developers are switching over to it anyway for Windows 7, and will carry over to Windows 8. Cheers! On 3/10/2012 2:37 PM, shaun everiss wrote: I aggree, if windows security ran like linux security we wouldn't have a problem. Most stuff works and thats fine. I have not experimented, but I guess I could try the home folder rout though since windows never natively handled it right before its going to be a heck of a learning curve. As it is ie as well to the protections it has in xp has a protected mode that does not impact accessability software or at least nvda anyway. Then there is the performance lag, its a bit of a non reason to have it enabled. Its why in a lot of oses stuff like visuals and a lot of security is disabled, well all that causes issues because ms have never writen anything, ok besides msse maybe in the security department that doesn't have some issue or other. Dark, seriously the win7 interface is not that bad, takes a bit to learn, the win8 interface now thats a major jump but I'm sure I will grow to like it. Ofcause it doesn't help that game devs though on the way to changing have been for the last 10 years have been using old languages, vb6 and older for example for their games. Dotnet and c++ programming is still new for us really, with only a few titles round the place. Hopefully bgt will eaven that score some. However with that all going for it, we still have a large persentage of our games, in fact bat 1-2% of our games that are converted most are still using old code. Some will change but not all. Some can't be bothered and some have other reasons not to upgrade. And
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Sure. As I said before that is perfectly understandable. However, weather you have a use for Windows 7 or not is really beside the point. The fact is that when you or anyone else buys a new computer you'll get Windows 7 on it and you will have to either roll with the change or remain in the technical dark ages with XP. Its not necessarily pleasant or something you like, but what alternative do you really have? I'll use myself as an example. You know that I use Linux quite a lot instead of Windows. I was very happy with the way accessibility and development was going clear up to Ubuntu 10.04 and the Gnome 2.32 desktop. However, last year things went down hill in my opinion in a hurry. The Gnome developers released the Gnome 3.0 and Gnome 3.2 desktops which broke accessibility in a number of cases, and there were changes I didn't particularly like about the new Gnome desktop. To add to my frustration Ubuntu decided to drop the Gnome desktop in favor of their own desktop, Unity, which was totally different and less accessible than Gnome 2.32. Obviously this situation has me just as reluctant to upgrade to new versions of Ubuntu just like you don't want to upgrade to newer versions of Windows. However, the way I see it is that I don't have much of a choice long term. Ubuntu have what are called long term support releases, LTS, which are only good for two years. So if a person downloads 10.04 LTS in April 2010 the updates, applications, and support for that release will end in April 2012. Sure, a person can continue running it long after that point but there will be no new patches or updates available in software center for that release. If they want patches, updates, and new applications they have to upgrade to the new LTS release Ubuntu 12 which comes out sometime next month, or that person has to manually apply those patches by getting the source, compiling, and installing it themselves. Normally this isn't a problem, but for me I find it very frustrating. I've got Ubuntu 12 beta installed here in a virtual machine, and I have to confess I hate it. the accessibility has taken a nose dive since Ubuntu 10, and there are all kinds of strange bugs that make it less than ideal for me. One bug that we are discussing on the Orca list is the fact when arrowing through a menu Orca announces the underscore character used to identify the hot key for the menu selection. You might be arrowing through Thunderbird's menus and hear something like Prefere underscore nces. Where it correctly identifies the n is the underlined character, but it disrupts the word making it difficult to figure out that its saying Preferences. I'm sure eventually said bug will get fixed, but until it does, as well as other annoying bugs, I have no desire to upgrade to Ubuntu 12. So I understand your reluctance to upgrade to Windows 7 as our situations are similar if not exactly the same. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 7:16 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. well it is true that I didn't know about creating local user directories for installation like that, however a lot of reluctance with windows 7 is based on actual experience I've had with the user interface. I for instance like my computer laid out logically with many directories and folders, and use windows explorer constantly to go and find the stuff I want, just as if I was picking them off a book shelf. For instance I have a folder in the programs menue called audio games, within which are folders for gma, bsc, blind adrenalin etc. I have tried the windows 7 search box, but strongly dislike it, sinse I always prefer looking through the material I have and being able to review it, and those user interface functions are just plane not! there on windows 7 sinse microsoft went for a flashy, ridiculous ui that is hell for a screen reader. I know classic shell will help with this, but if I'm going to make every effort to turn windows 7 into xp, what's the point in windows 7 anyway? it's not as if there really is that much i want to do that requires it, indeed a lot of the things i do with computers will be blocked by having it. That is why, though I may well have to get a windows 7 machine if my desktop gives up the ghost, I'm not in the least looking forward to it. Frankly I wish microsoft had just carried on with a better version of xp rather than changing the entire interface, layout, architecture and everything else to something that is far less screen reader friendly. Though i have actually heard windows 8 is to have better compatibility with older programs sinse so many people disliked the way windows 7 broke this, which is a point in it's favour over 7. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/g
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
If I may chime in on this discussion as it were. Windows 8 does not load, or at least the consumer preview doesn't, on any of the pcs we've tried. But apparently, according to an old friend of mine, its almost like a touch-screen (smartphone) interface has been ported to desktop. Just to give you a heads-up. How good is classic shell anyway? Just to ask what it brings in favour of our predicament. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 11 March 2012 12:46 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Sure. As I said before that is perfectly understandable. However, weather you have a use for Windows 7 or not is really beside the point. The fact is that when you or anyone else buys a new computer you'll get Windows 7 on it and you will have to either roll with the change or remain in the technical dark ages with XP. Its not necessarily pleasant or something you like, but what alternative do you really have? I'll use myself as an example. You know that I use Linux quite a lot instead of Windows. I was very happy with the way accessibility and development was going clear up to Ubuntu 10.04 and the Gnome 2.32 desktop. However, last year things went down hill in my opinion in a hurry. The Gnome developers released the Gnome 3.0 and Gnome 3.2 desktops which broke accessibility in a number of cases, and there were changes I didn't particularly like about the new Gnome desktop. To add to my frustration Ubuntu decided to drop the Gnome desktop in favor of their own desktop, Unity, which was totally different and less accessible than Gnome 2.32. Obviously this situation has me just as reluctant to upgrade to new versions of Ubuntu just like you don't want to upgrade to newer versions of Windows. However, the way I see it is that I don't have much of a choice long term. Ubuntu have what are called long term support releases, LTS, which are only good for two years. So if a person downloads 10.04 LTS in April 2010 the updates, applications, and support for that release will end in April 2012. Sure, a person can continue running it long after that point but there will be no new patches or updates available in software center for that release. If they want patches, updates, and new applications they have to upgrade to the new LTS release Ubuntu 12 which comes out sometime next month, or that person has to manually apply those patches by getting the source, compiling, and installing it themselves. Normally this isn't a problem, but for me I find it very frustrating. I've got Ubuntu 12 beta installed here in a virtual machine, and I have to confess I hate it. the accessibility has taken a nose dive since Ubuntu 10, and there are all kinds of strange bugs that make it less than ideal for me. One bug that we are discussing on the Orca list is the fact when arrowing through a menu Orca announces the underscore character used to identify the hot key for the menu selection. You might be arrowing through Thunderbird's menus and hear something like Prefere underscore nces. Where it correctly identifies the n is the underlined character, but it disrupts the word making it difficult to figure out that its saying Preferences. I'm sure eventually said bug will get fixed, but until it does, as well as other annoying bugs, I have no desire to upgrade to Ubuntu 12. So I understand your reluctance to upgrade to Windows 7 as our situations are similar if not exactly the same. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 7:16 AM, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > well it is true that I didn't know about creating local user > directories for installation like that, however a lot of reluctance > with windows 7 is based on actual experience I've had with the user > interface. > > I for instance like my computer laid out logically with many > directories and folders, and use windows explorer constantly to go and > find the stuff I want, just as if I was picking them off a book shelf. > > For instance I have a folder in the programs menue called audio games, > within which are folders for gma, bsc, blind adrenalin etc. I have > tried the windows 7 search box, but strongly dislike it, sinse I > always prefer looking through the material I have and being able to > review it, and those user interface functions are just plane not! > there on windows 7 sinse microsoft went for a flashy, ridiculous ui > that is hell for a screen reader. I know classic shell will help with > this, but if I'm going to make every effort to turn windows 7 into xp, > what's the point in windows 7 anyway? it's not as if there really > is that much i want to do that requires it, indeed a lot of the things > i do with computers will be blocked by having it. > > That is why, though I may well have to get a wi
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. The funny thing about windows 7, is how few reasons there are that I should! upgrade. For instance, I'm writing my phd thesis in word 2007, and there is absolutely nothing in word 2010 or later that would make that task of writing my phd easier, quite the reverse in fact. All the games and such I play are quite runnable on xp, indeed the only game I've ever seen that requires windows 7 is airik the clerric and even that is going to be fixed. The latest version of winamp, my favourite media player are fine with xp, and indeed from what I've seen outlook express beats microsoft outlook or windows messenger hands down as a quick and useable E-mail client. I'm using ie8 for brouser the net, I've tried firefox but it crashes so much it isn't worth it, and though various websites like sendspace tell me things like "you are using an outdated brouser" I've found very little that won't work with ie8 for all that. Back in 2004 I was using a windows 98 laptop, and I kept running accross applications and games that required xp, indeed this was why I never tried galaxy ranger or the self voicing sapi interpreters and mush clients until I upgraded my machine. i thought that was what would happen with wndows 7, that eventually more and more applications would use it, so at the point I was forced to get it with a new computer, there would be more new stuff I wanted it for. This however simply hasn't happened! So "the dark ages" as you put it really ain't looking so dark from where I'm standing. I'm not saying I will attempt to install xp if this pc breaks, but it would be something I'd seriously considder, sinse rather than being an upgrade windows 7 looks like it'd be more trouble than good over all, and just because microsoft say it's "better" that doesn't mean it actually is so for the things I wish to use a pc for. So the security might be better, well that only really makes a difference if the current security was causing problems, and thanks to avg it certainly isn't. So outlook express doesn't have all the fancy conference options of windows messenger, do I want them? hell no! I want to read my mail quickly and reply quickly, and outlook express is absolutely fine for that. If windows 7 has nothing to actually offer me but a screwy interface, program incompatibilities and bad mail programs, and I'll be using virtual machines, classic shell and just about every other trick in the book to turn windows 7 into xp, why should I bother with windows 7 at all? I'd actually be interested if anyone does! have anything good to say about windows 7 that will actually affect my computer and what I do and let me do it better, sinse from everything I've seen, including the occasions I've had a go with Hal on other windows 7 machines, it seems there is no bennifit to me and just lots of cost, --- -where as upgrading from 98 to xp had huge bennifits and no cost at all. Hay, maybe by the time my xp desktop bites the bullit we'll be in to windows 8 anyway, and several of the more annoying stuff like ribbons and incompatibility with 16 bit programs won't be such an issue, and as for my laptop, I'm probably going to replace that with an Iphone or Ipad anyway next time, sinse as a portable device there are loads of advantages, and unlike windows xp vs 7, there are lots! of fun things I'd like to do on an Ipad, though I wouldn't want a mac as a desktop sinse that would also stop me doing the windows stuff entirely. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
From what I've heard, classic shell basically gives you a windows xp style start menue and explorer in windows 7, rather than those weerd folders that go on forever and the strange partitianed start menue windows 7 has. As to windwos 8 and interface, well I'm not sure sinse I've not seen it at all, though i have heard it does remove both ribbons and will apparently have better compatibility with 16 bit applications sinse microsoft have gotten into trouble over that one. I certainly wouldn't look at using it as an os now, not in it's current beta state, but hopefuly my xp machine will keep going for a good while yet. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Ben" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly If I may chime in on this discussion as it were. Windows 8 does not load, or at least the consumer preview doesn't, on any of the pcs we've tried. But apparently, according to an old friend of mine, its almost like a touch-screen (smartphone) interface has been ported to desktop. Just to give you a heads-up. How good is classic shell anyway? Just to ask what it brings in favour of our predicament. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 11 March 2012 12:46 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Sure. As I said before that is perfectly understandable. However, weather you have a use for Windows 7 or not is really beside the point. The fact is that when you or anyone else buys a new computer you'll get Windows 7 on it and you will have to either roll with the change or remain in the technical dark ages with XP. Its not necessarily pleasant or something you like, but what alternative do you really have? I'll use myself as an example. You know that I use Linux quite a lot instead of Windows. I was very happy with the way accessibility and development was going clear up to Ubuntu 10.04 and the Gnome 2.32 desktop. However, last year things went down hill in my opinion in a hurry. The Gnome developers released the Gnome 3.0 and Gnome 3.2 desktops which broke accessibility in a number of cases, and there were changes I didn't particularly like about the new Gnome desktop. To add to my frustration Ubuntu decided to drop the Gnome desktop in favor of their own desktop, Unity, which was totally different and less accessible than Gnome 2.32. Obviously this situation has me just as reluctant to upgrade to new versions of Ubuntu just like you don't want to upgrade to newer versions of Windows. However, the way I see it is that I don't have much of a choice long term. Ubuntu have what are called long term support releases, LTS, which are only good for two years. So if a person downloads 10.04 LTS in April 2010 the updates, applications, and support for that release will end in April 2012. Sure, a person can continue running it long after that point but there will be no new patches or updates available in software center for that release. If they want patches, updates, and new applications they have to upgrade to the new LTS release Ubuntu 12 which comes out sometime next month, or that person has to manually apply those patches by getting the source, compiling, and installing it themselves. Normally this isn't a problem, but for me I find it very frustrating. I've got Ubuntu 12 beta installed here in a virtual machine, and I have to confess I hate it. the accessibility has taken a nose dive since Ubuntu 10, and there are all kinds of strange bugs that make it less than ideal for me. One bug that we are discussing on the Orca list is the fact when arrowing through a menu Orca announces the underscore character used to identify the hot key for the menu selection. You might be arrowing through Thunderbird's menus and hear something like Prefere underscore nces. Where it correctly identifies the n is the underlined character, but it disrupts the word making it difficult to figure out that its saying Preferences. I'm sure eventually said bug will get fixed, but until it does, as well as other annoying bugs, I have no desire to upgrade to Ubuntu 12. So I understand your reluctance to upgrade to Windows 7 as our situations are similar if not exactly the same. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 7:16 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. well it is true that I didn't know about creating local user directories for installation like that, however a lot of reluctance with windows 7 is based on actual experience I've had with the user interface. I for instance like my computer laid out logically with many directories and folders, and use windows explorer constantly to go and find the stuff I want, just as if I was picking them off a book shelf. For instance I have a folder in the programs
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Ben, Classic Shell is a program for Windows Vista and Windows 7 that restores some of the classic functionality of XP to the Windows environment. In particular the classic Windows 9x start menu with Programs, Settings, Run, etc in a single menu rather than the split screen start menu from Vista and Windows 7. I don't think it offers any particular advantage in terms of accessibility over the default Windows start menu, but merely provides people the advantage to use the classic Windows interface they like from 95,98, ME, and XP in newer Windows operating systems. Another small but helpful thing Classic Shell does is reverts dialogs back to the classic Windows dialogs. In Windows 7 if you want to copy and replace a number of files in a directory you get a prompt to Copy and Replace, Skip, and a checkbox to do this action for all the other files in that directory. Classic Shell replaces that dialog with the classic prompt with Yes, Yes to All, and No buttons found in older versions of Windows. About the only accessibility advantage is you can press alt+y for Yes, alt+n for No, and alt+a for Yes to All which is quicker than tabbing through the default Windows 7 copy and replace dialog to look for the checkbox to perform the action on all files and folders. In short the advantages of Classic Shell is simply a matter of preference. It offers no advantages from an accessibility standpoint. It merely gives people who like the 9x look and feel the 9x look and feel under Windows 7, or at least as close as you are going to get. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 9:24 AM, Ben wrote: If I may chime in on this discussion as it were. Windows 8 does not load, or at least the consumer preview doesn't, on any of the pcs we've tried. But apparently, according to an old friend of mine, its almost like a touch-screen (smartphone) interface has been ported to desktop. Just to give you a heads-up. How good is classic shell anyway? Just to ask what it brings in favour of our predicament. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
For me, the reason I prefer the classic start menue is simply that it is static. for instance, over the past 10 or so years I've been on the net, I've worked out a system of subfolders in my start menue. I have an audiogames folder with games index by developer, a text games folder for eamon deluxe and if interpreters, a freeware games folder for my graphical games, a useful programs folder for avg, 7zip, winamp and other handy stuff etc. I just much prefer having my stuff liked this, layed out like books in a library than having context sensative this, last used that, and recommended the other. For instance, if I want to play gma tank commander, it doesn't matter when I last played it, I know! i'll find it under audio games/gma games. Indeed, I might not actually want! to play the last game I played. Yes, I could use the search box, but just like brousing a set of book shelves, I like brousing my game directories and thinking "hay, It's been ages sinse I last played alien outback, why not give that a bash" Same with favourites in fact. I have folders for work books, audio games, online brouser games, online books such as darker projects, scifi resources with subfolders for Dr. who and startrek etc. I actually enjoy! individually organizing and collecting them, rather than having the process automated. That is why I prefer the classic menue in xp, and would use classic shell in windows 7. the other thing I found in windows 7, is that windows explorer was far more annoying to use, in the way it didn't just put you inside folder subgroups when you click on a folder, it seemed to have random silly buttons everywhere, and looking at a folders contents was near impossible! Just like in my favourites, I have my audio books in folders by author, and music genre and artist folders that I've organized myself. When I want to play one, I just wander into my c:\music directory (I never use my music in my documents, I prefer all my actual music in the one place), find a folder or a track and play it in winamp. Indeed sometimes I just bang my entire 70 gb music folder on shuffle in winamp just for the heck of it :d. I think this is really my problem with modern ui. I treat my computer as a literal virtual environment that I myself wish to organize, just the same way I might organize books or dvds on a shelf, with catagories, subcatagories and the like that I can quickly reach. Where as microsoft (and from the sound of it the ubuntu lynux developers), what everything looking flashy with a bazillion buttons all over the place offering you automated access to lots of stuff that the computer recommends without having to leave a single screen, the idea having as much information in the one place and on the one screen as possible, - though from what my sighted friends say about the ui it doesn't sound like many of them like it much either, though there are some that go for convenience over organization it is true. However if this is the case, why couldn't microsoft just have variable ui settings? The way in xp you could choose! classic or modern menues. But no, microsoft, the big company is always right as usual. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
thanks for your information, both of you. But I agree with you dark. Windows 7 is a mole on the face of accessibility, and one that won't heal, just like vista and ubuntu 12. lol -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 11 March 2012 14:41 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly For me, the reason I prefer the classic start menue is simply that it is static. for instance, over the past 10 or so years I've been on the net, I've worked out a system of subfolders in my start menue. I have an audiogames folder with games index by developer, a text games folder for eamon deluxe and if interpreters, a freeware games folder for my graphical games, a useful programs folder for avg, 7zip, winamp and other handy stuff etc. I just much prefer having my stuff liked this, layed out like books in a library than having context sensative this, last used that, and recommended the other. For instance, if I want to play gma tank commander, it doesn't matter when I last played it, I know! i'll find it under audio games/gma games. Indeed, I might not actually want! to play the last game I played. Yes, I could use the search box, but just like brousing a set of book shelves, I like brousing my game directories and thinking "hay, It's been ages sinse I last played alien outback, why not give that a bash" Same with favourites in fact. I have folders for work books, audio games, online brouser games, online books such as darker projects, scifi resources with subfolders for Dr. who and startrek etc. I actually enjoy! individually organizing and collecting them, rather than having the process automated. That is why I prefer the classic menue in xp, and would use classic shell in windows 7. the other thing I found in windows 7, is that windows explorer was far more annoying to use, in the way it didn't just put you inside folder subgroups when you click on a folder, it seemed to have random silly buttons everywhere, and looking at a folders contents was near impossible! Just like in my favourites, I have my audio books in folders by author, and music genre and artist folders that I've organized myself. When I want to play one, I just wander into my c:\music directory (I never use my music in my documents, I prefer all my actual music in the one place), find a folder or a track and play it in winamp. Indeed sometimes I just bang my entire 70 gb music folder on shuffle in winamp just for the heck of it :d. I think this is really my problem with modern ui. I treat my computer as a literal virtual environment that I myself wish to organize, just the same way I might organize books or dvds on a shelf, with catagories, subcatagories and the like that I can quickly reach. Where as microsoft (and from the sound of it the ubuntu lynux developers), what everything looking flashy with a bazillion buttons all over the place offering you automated access to lots of stuff that the computer recommends without having to leave a single screen, the idea having as much information in the one place and on the one screen as possible, - though from what my sighted friends say about the ui it doesn't sound like many of them like it much either, though there are some that go for convenience over organization it is true. However if this is the case, why couldn't microsoft just have variable ui settings? The way in xp you could choose! classic or modern menues. But no, microsoft, the big company is always right as usual. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4863 - Release Date: 03/10/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Which are all very good valid points. There are certainly advantages in upgrading and using Windows 7, but its hard to argue the point if those advantages do not effect you personally. For example, on Windows 7 you can burn music CD, data CDS, and data DVD through Windows Explorer directly. Obviously, its a nice feature to have as you can just drag and drop all your data to a blank DVD and select Write DVD from the File menu. However, for a person running XP and has Nero, Roxio CD Creator, or a free CD/DVD writing tool the ability to burn CDs and DVDs with Windows Explorer is not really a convincing argument to upgrade because the person already has a tool to perform that task. In the case of something like Direct3D 11 you can only get that with Windows 7, but not too many games are using Direct3D 11 for that precise reason. Most game developers are using Direct3D 9 which ships with XP, Vista, and Windows 7 for compatibility reasons. So again, its hardly a convincing reason to upgrade. Fact of the matter is, and I'll freely admit this, that there isn't anything you can do on Windows 7 that you can't do on XP already. You can get .Net 4.0, Internet Explorer 9, Windows Live Mail, Windows Live Messenger, Live Windows Writer, Windows Media Player 11, Security Essentials, etc all for XP currently so there really isn't anything for Windows 7 you can't get and run on XP too. However, here is the problem. If you buy a new PC and try and install XP on it you may find it difficult to obtain hardware drivers for the new PC that are XP compatible. Plus if you have a new 64-bit PC and only a 32-bit version of XP you will only be able to use a fraction of the memory and CPU power available. Windows 7 supports up to 128 GB of ram. Many new computers ship with 4 GB of ram and can be upgraded to 8 GB of ram. Windows XP only supports up to 4 GB of ram max, and if you have a PC with 8 GB of ram XP won't be able to use it. Granted if you don't need that much ram its hardly a convincing argument, but the point is that XP is falling behind in terms of hardware support and it is going to get harder to find new PCs that XP will run on without problems and issues. The other thing to think about long term is 64-bit support. Right now we are in a transitional stage where developers are still producing 32-bit apps or both 32-bit and 64-bit apps, but give the industry five years or so to become fully 64-bit compliant and XP will be out of date. You can't run new 64-bit apps on 32-bit versions of XP, and that is why I call XP the technical dark ages. Its fine for now, but five years from now it could be a totally different story if there is a game or some other program you want that is 64-bit only and you are still running XP. XP users are living on borrowed time as far as I am concerned as eventually the changes in Win 7 will become standard and XP will simply not be able to keep up with those changes. As for ?Firefox I've always found it rather stable. I'm using Firefox 10 with no issues. However, that said, I know there are certain extensions and plug ins that will cause Firefox to crash. If you install a plug in that isn't compatible with the version of Firefox you are using it will sometimes hang and crash, but removing the offending plug in will make Firefox run fine. So I caution you to not make blanket statements like "Firefox crashes so much it isn't worth it" because Firefox is widely regarded to be the very best web browser on the market. It has been praised by PC Magazine, PC World, and various other respected technical professionals, and I can't help but feel you are being far to bias towards Firefox based on some bad experience likely caused by your personal setup rather than the software itself. Anyway, I do understand and respect your point about Windows 7, because in the main you AR correct. If XP is doing everything you need it to do there is little need to upgrade at this point. However, there may be a day when you buy a new laptop where you might need Windows 7 or Windows 8 to run that PC do to driver issues, better support for memory, support for larger files, support for 64-bit apps, and plenty of other things that don't effect you now but might be an issue five years from now. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 10:16 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. The funny thing about windows 7, is how few reasons there are that I should! upgrade. For instance, I'm writing my phd thesis in word 2007, and there is absolutely nothing in word 2010 or later that would make that task of writing my phd easier, quite the reverse in fact. All the games and such I play are quite runnable on xp, indeed the only game I've ever seen that requires windows 7 is airik the clerric and even that is going to be fixed. The latest version of winamp, my favourite media player are fine with xp, and indeed from what I've seen outlook express beats microsoft ou
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Grin. Strange partitioned Start Menu? Sorry, I just had to laugh because I happen to love the new Start Menu setup. I like the fact on the left pain all of my frequently used apps are right there so I don't have to go through the Programs Menu to find the icons to start a program. Plus on the right pain I have my home directory, Documents, Videos, Music, Pictures, etc so I can click on the icon and go directly to the type of files I want. Plus the new Search bar acts like the Run dialog so all I have to do is type Wordpad press enter and it launches Wordpad. I personally think it is awesome! Yeah, I know you don't like it but I think it is a huge improvement over the classic Start Menu. (I would never go back to the classic Start Menu because I personally feel the new U.I. is an improvement. As it happens other operating systems are adopting this type of Start Menu setup as well. For example, Ubuntu's new Unity desktop has a search box called the Dash.If you hit the Windows key it brings up a search box, and typing gedit, audacity, firefox, thunderbird, etc in it and press enter it will launch the program or open the specified file in the default application. Pressing alt+f1 takes you to the Unity launcher panel where the most commonly used apps are so you can launch Firefox, Thunderbird, Gedit, Audacity, Libre Writer, etc from there as well. So even Linux is becoming more like Windows 7 in many ways. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 10:19 AM, dark wrote: From what I've heard, classic shell basically gives you a windows xp style start menue and explorer in windows 7, rather than those weerd folders that go on forever and the strange partitianed start menue windows 7 has. As to windwos 8 and interface, well I'm not sure sinse I've not seen it at all, though i have heard it does remove both ribbons and will apparently have better compatibility with 16 bit applications sinse microsoft have gotten into trouble over that one. I certainly wouldn't look at using it as an os now, not in it's current beta state, but hopefuly my xp machine will keep going for a good while yet. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Well, I actually have my own Start Menu laid out pretty much as you describe. Under Programs I have a menu for Games that has GMA, PCS, Draconis, USA Games, etc all divided up by developer and game. I have another option called Office where I have Jarte, Microsoft Office, Adobe Reader, etc all devided up the same way. All of my Development tools are under a subdirectory called Development just like Games and Office programs are. Just because I'm using Windows 7 doesn't mean I can't organize the Start Menu as you described. You still have a great deal of ability to customize how you want your Start Menu to look. For example, you mentioned the fact you really don't like all the automated stuff where it puts the last used and recommended apps at the top of your Start Menu. That's no big deal. You can go into Start Menu properties and turn it off as well as various other settings for the Start Menu. Its not quite as simple as the classic Start Menu setup but the point is you can still customize it to a certain degree. For instance, I really do not like the Control Panel in Windows 7, and prefer the classic Control Panel from XP. Well, there is a way to reach a compromise on that issue. In Windows 7 if I go under Start Menu properties I can have the Control Panel display in a menu rather than as a web page. That's almost as good as the classic Control Panel because my Control Panel shows up as a menu in the Start menu with several icons for Programs and Features, Users, Display Settings, etc. Windows 7 still met me half way on that issue. That said, there is a feature in Windows 7 I personally like that doesn't even require the Start Menu. In Windows 7 you can pin icons to the Taskbar and asign them to Windows+1 through Windows+0. If I pin Firefox to the Taskbar I can use Windows+1 to launch it, and if it is already open Windows+1 will bring Firefox to the foreground. What's cool about this feature is I have Thunderbird and Firefox open at the same time I can switch between apps with Windows+1 and Windows+2 because they are pinned to the Taskbar and are assigned to those hot keys. This I think does justify the automation added to Windows 7 because I think it makes launching and switching between common apps better. At least for me anyway. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 10:40 AM, dark wrote: For me, the reason I prefer the classic start menue is simply that it is static. for instance, over the past 10 or so years I've been on the net, I've worked out a system of subfolders in my start menue. I have an audiogames folder with games index by developer, a text games folder for eamon deluxe and if interpreters, a freeware games folder for my graphical games, a useful programs folder for avg, 7zip, winamp and other handy stuff etc. I just much prefer having my stuff liked this, layed out like books in a library than having context sensative this, last used that, and recommended the other. For instance, if I want to play gma tank commander, it doesn't matter when I last played it, I know! i'll find it under audio games/gma games. Indeed, I might not actually want! to play the last game I played. Yes, I could use the search box, but just like brousing a set of book shelves, I like brousing my game directories and thinking "hay, It's been ages sinse I last played alien outback, why not give that a bash" Same with favourites in fact. I have folders for work books, audio games, online brouser games, online books such as darker projects, scifi resources with subfolders for Dr. who and startrek etc. I actually enjoy! individually organizing and collecting them, rather than having the process automated. That is why I prefer the classic menue in xp, and would use classic shell in windows 7. the other thing I found in windows 7, is that windows explorer was far more annoying to use, in the way it didn't just put you inside folder subgroups when you click on a folder, it seemed to have random silly buttons everywhere, and looking at a folders contents was near impossible! Just like in my favourites, I have my audio books in folders by author, and music genre and artist folders that I've organized myself. When I want to play one, I just wander into my c:\music directory (I never use my music in my documents, I prefer all my actual music in the one place), find a folder or a track and play it in winamp. Indeed sometimes I just bang my entire 70 gb music folder on shuffle in winamp just for the heck of it :d. I think this is really my problem with modern ui. I treat my computer as a literal virtual environment that I myself wish to organize, just the same way I might organize books or dvds on a shelf, with catagories, subcatagories and the like that I can quickly reach. Where as microsoft (and from the sound of it the ubuntu lynux developers), what everything looking flashy with a bazillion buttons all over the place offering you automate
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I have only a few things to say here. I know of several new laptops in Germany which have Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit preinstalled, and that can't be good when things like the features of let's say the ultimate edition are surely missing and when there is a 64 bit version available and might be better suited for the new hardware... And Thomas, can Internet Explorer 9 really be installed on XP? And what about IE 9 accessibility and the same goes for Firefox 10 and the upcoming Firefox 11 as well? And what about the plugin issues with Firefox? How are you supposed to handle them? I have read reports of components like quicktime support in Firefox being unstable or failing. This can't just be fixed by uninstalling the offending object. If we are talking about browser extension, it might be right, but what about content plugins (Flash, Shockwave, Silverlight, Java, Adobe Air and so on)? This is nothing the end user can fix, same goes for other extensions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
hi Tom. But that you've said it yourself. Why should up put up with all the hastles with windows 7 if there is no bennifit? yes, it might be able to use more of a pc's hardware and bigger ram, but what is that bigger ram going to actually do for me? To missquote a famous Us president, ask not what you can do for your pc, but what your pc can do for you! when a lot of stuff can't! be done on xp, then is the point I'll considder upgrading, when it will actually give me bennifits, but as it stands given the huge amounts of hastle, stupid less accessible ui, and incompatibility with many older programs, I see little reason to at the moment. Five years down the line things may be different, and there may be some convincing reasons to upgrade, but I don't see them at the present moment. As for borrowed time, well being as windows 7 64 bit has killed a lot of compatibility with 32 and 16 bit applications, it's almost the other way around as far as I'm concerned, upgrading would put you out on a limb. As to brousers, ie9 doesn't seem to be compatible with xp, sinse whenever I go to the page the only package I'm directed to has an upgrade for windows 7 along with ie9 and a statement that it won't run on xp, which is why indeed I'm still using ie8. As to firefox I've been trying it recently but everytime I run it, it crashes within about 30 seconds, with google, with wikipedia, even with the audiogames.net forum. I haven't installed! any addons, this is just the basic program. i know it's got good reports, but clearly there is something in my pc it doesn't like, and frankly as I said,despite lots of websites screaming about me using an incomaptible brouser I've only found one or two things that won't work with ie8, most things are fine, but it was because! I was finding those issues that I was looking at firefox as an alternative, but it just doesn't seem to work, which is why I call it unstable. beware the grue! Dark. - O --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. when I spoke about "the stupid windows 7 interface" I meant more windows explorer and the desktop than the start menue. The start menue is absolutely fine if you like it, it's just that personally as I said, I don't want! the most frequently used stuff flagged by my computer, or to have to open something by typing a name when I don't know where or what the file is. As I said, I like treating my pc as a book shelf, and the last thing I'd want on my bookshelf is for it to start handing! me books. For instance, it's been absolutely months sinse I last played gma tank commander. I know exactly where to find it though, and if I want to review what gma games I have, I can just go and look in the folder. This wouldn't be possible if I got the last application I used on the menue. For the few programs I need on a dayly basis, I have shortcut keys on the desktop, eg, ctrl alt o for outlook express. Then as I said, the desktop and windows explorer file and folder view in ie7 just looked like a confused mess! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Grin. Strange partitioned Start Menu? Sorry, I just had to laugh because I happen to love the new Start Menu setup. I like the fact on the left pain all of my frequently used apps are right there so I don't have to go through the Programs Menu to find the icons to start a program. Plus on the right pain I have my home directory, Documents, Videos, Music, Pictures, etc so I can click on the icon and go directly to the type of files I want. Plus the new Search bar acts like the Run dialog so all I have to do is type Wordpad press enter and it launches Wordpad. I personally think it is awesome! Yeah, I know you don't like it but I think it is a huge improvement over the classic Start Menu. (I would never go back to the classic Start Menu because I personally feel the new U.I. is an improvement. As it happens other operating systems are adopting this type of Start Menu setup as well. For example, Ubuntu's new Unity desktop has a search box called the Dash.If you hit the Windows key it brings up a search box, and typing gedit, audacity, firefox, thunderbird, etc in it and press enter it will launch the program or open the specified file in the default application. Pressing alt+f1 takes you to the Unity launcher panel where the most commonly used apps are so you can launch Firefox, Thunderbird, Gedit, Audacity, Libre Writer, etc from there as well. So even Linux is becoming more like Windows 7 in many ways. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 10:19 AM, dark wrote: From what I've heard, classic shell basically gives you a windows xp style start menue and explorer in windows 7, rather than those weerd folders that go on forever and the strange partitianed start menue windows 7 has. As to windwos 8 and interface, well I'm not sure sinse I've not seen it at all, though i have heard it does remove both ribbons and will apparently have better compatibility with 16 bit applications sinse microsoft have gotten into trouble over that one. I certainly wouldn't look at using it as an os now, not in it's current beta state, but hopefuly my xp machine will keep going for a good while yet. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
hi Tom. The only thing is, as I said, if I'm going to be turning off all this stuff in windows 7, then why have it? that's not exactly a point in it's favour. i will admit the pinning applications to the task bar sounds useful, though once again I've pretty much done that in xp with shortcut keys for desktop icons and using shift alt tab, though I will admit windows and number keys would be less keystrokes. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I actually have my own Start Menu laid out pretty much as you describe. Under Programs I have a menu for Games that has GMA, PCS, Draconis, USA Games, etc all divided up by developer and game. I have another option called Office where I have Jarte, Microsoft Office, Adobe Reader, etc all devided up the same way. All of my Development tools are under a subdirectory called Development just like Games and Office programs are. Just because I'm using Windows 7 doesn't mean I can't organize the Start Menu as you described. You still have a great deal of ability to customize how you want your Start Menu to look. For example, you mentioned the fact you really don't like all the automated stuff where it puts the last used and recommended apps at the top of your Start Menu. That's no big deal. You can go into Start Menu properties and turn it off as well as various other settings for the Start Menu. Its not quite as simple as the classic Start Menu setup but the point is you can still customize it to a certain degree. For instance, I really do not like the Control Panel in Windows 7, and prefer the classic Control Panel from XP. Well, there is a way to reach a compromise on that issue. In Windows 7 if I go under Start Menu properties I can have the Control Panel display in a menu rather than as a web page. That's almost as good as the classic Control Panel because my Control Panel shows up as a menu in the Start menu with several icons for Programs and Features, Users, Display Settings, etc. Windows 7 still met me half way on that issue. That said, there is a feature in Windows 7 I personally like that doesn't even require the Start Menu. In Windows 7 you can pin icons to the Taskbar and asign them to Windows+1 through Windows+0. If I pin Firefox to the Taskbar I can use Windows+1 to launch it, and if it is already open Windows+1 will bring Firefox to the foreground. What's cool about this feature is I have Thunderbird and Firefox open at the same time I can switch between apps with Windows+1 and Windows+2 because they are pinned to the Taskbar and are assigned to those hot keys. This I think does justify the automation added to Windows 7 because I think it makes launching and switching between common apps better. At least for me anyway. Cheers! On 3/11/2012 10:40 AM, dark wrote: For me, the reason I prefer the classic start menue is simply that it is static. for instance, over the past 10 or so years I've been on the net, I've worked out a system of subfolders in my start menue. I have an audiogames folder with games index by developer, a text games folder for eamon deluxe and if interpreters, a freeware games folder for my graphical games, a useful programs folder for avg, 7zip, winamp and other handy stuff etc. I just much prefer having my stuff liked this, layed out like books in a library than having context sensative this, last used that, and recommended the other. For instance, if I want to play gma tank commander, it doesn't matter when I last played it, I know! i'll find it under audio games/gma games. Indeed, I might not actually want! to play the last game I played. Yes, I could use the search box, but just like brousing a set of book shelves, I like brousing my game directories and thinking "hay, It's been ages sinse I last played alien outback, why not give that a bash" Same with favourites in fact. I have folders for work books, audio games, online brouser games, online books such as darker projects, scifi resources with subfolders for Dr. who and startrek etc. I actually enjoy! individually organizing and collecting them, rather than having the process automated. That is why I prefer the classic menue in xp, and would use classic shell in windows 7. the other thing I found in windows 7, is that windows explorer was far more annoying to use, in the way it didn't just put you inside folder subgroups when you click on a folder, it seemed to have random silly buttons everywhere, and looking at a folders contents was near impossible! Just like in my favourites, I have my audio books in folders by author, and music genre and artist folders that I've organized myself. When I want to play o
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Well, I've seen a download for Internet Explorer 9 for XP so I'd assume its available for XP. Beyond that I wouldn't know since I haven't installed it on XP myself since my XP virtual machine is exclusively used for old games and other apps that don't run as well on Win 7. As far as Firefox 10 accessibility goes depends on the screen reader. I've heard Jaws and Window-Eyes users complain that Firefox 10 is not accessible. However, I am using NVDA and Firefox 10 is fully accessible with NVDA. So I think the question of accessibility is one that depends totally on the screen reader being used. Ditto for Internet Explorer 9. As for plugins and Firefox there are a number of ways to manage plugins. If you are having a problem with a certain plugin there are a couple of good things you can do. One, you can download and update the plugin in question and see if it resolves the problem. In many cases what happens is someone updates Firefox without updating all their plugins and Firefox crashes do to incompatibility with plugin x. So checking the plugins for Firefox is one way to correct problems. Two, if a plugin like Quicktime isn't working with Firefox but is working ok with Internet Explorer rather than removing it you can disable it in firefox. To do this do the following. 1. Open the tools menu. 2. Select the add-ons option. 3. Click on the plugins tab. 4. Arrow to the plugin you wish to disable. 5. Tab to the disable button and press enter. After this the plugin will be disabled and Firefox will ignore it. However, it will still be available for Internet Explorer, Chrome, or any other web browsers available on your system. It also helps you to figure out if a certain plugin is causing Firefox to crash by disabling plugins and enabling them one by one until you figure out what is causing it to crash. So as you can see there actually are ways to troubleshoot and fix problems if you know how to handle it. Mostly using the add-ons option under Tools will allow you to configure all of your Firefox add-ons such as enable, disable, add, remove, and update add-ons as needed. Its a classic case of knowing what to do being half the battle. :D Cheers! On 3/11/2012 3:49 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: I have only a few things to say here. I know of several new laptops in Germany which have Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit preinstalled, and that can't be good when things like the features of let's say the ultimate edition are surely missing and when there is a 64 bit version available and might be better suited for the new hardware... And Thomas, can Internet Explorer 9 really be installed on XP? And what about IE 9 accessibility and the same goes for Firefox 10 and the upcoming Firefox 11 as well? And what about the plugin issues with Firefox? How are you supposed to handle them? I have read reports of components like quicktime support in Firefox being unstable or failing. This can't just be fixed by uninstalling the offending object. If we are talking about browser extension, it might be right, but what about content plugins (Flash, Shockwave, Silverlight, Java, Adobe Air and so on)? This is nothing the end user can fix, same goes for other extensions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hello, Just to let you know that you made a misstake: IE9 is only available on vista and 7, not XP. IE9 uses a graphic acceleration driver/API called DirectWrite that doesn't exists before vista. I must also say that there isn't any problem with jaws and firefox. Firefox is a little slower and less accessible than IE, but it is perfectly usable. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Who ever told you that needs to learn computer ops. IE9 has no download for xp and won't even run on it. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/internet-explorer/products/ie-9/system-requirements Internet Explorer 9 system requirements Computer/Processor • Computer with a 1 gigahertz (GHz) 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor. Operating System • Windows Vista 32-bit with Service Pack 2 (SP2) or higher • Windows Vista 64-bit with Service Pack 2 (SP2) or higher • Windows 7 32-bit or higher • Windows 7 64-bit or higher • Windows Server 2008 32-bit with Service Pack 2 (SP2) or higher • Windows Server 2008 64-bit with Service Pack 2 (SP2) or higher • Windows Server 2008 R2 64-bit Memory • Windows Vista 32-bit – 512 megabytes (MB) • Windows Vista 64-bit – 512 MB • Windows 7 32-bit – 512 MB • Windows 7 64-bit – 512 MB • Windows Server 2008 32-bit – 512 MB • Windows Server 2008 64-bit – 512 MB • Windows Server 2008 R2 64-bit – 512 MB Hard Drive Space • Windows Vista 32-bit – 70 MB • Windows Vista 64-bit – 120 MB • Windows 7 32-bit – 70 MB • Windows 7 64-bit – 120 MB • Windows Server 2008 32-bit – 150 MB • Windows Server 2008 64-bit – 200 MB • Windows Server 2008 R2 64-bit – 200 MB Drive • CD-ROM drive (if installation is done from a CD-ROM) Display • Super VGA (800 x 600) or higher-resolution monitor with 256 colors Peripherals • Modem or Internet connection • Microsoft Mouse, Microsoft IntelliMouse, or compatible pointing device At 05:41 PM 3/11/2012, you wrote: Hi Michael, Well, I've seen a download for Internet Explorer 9 for XP so I'd assume its available for XP. Beyond that I wouldn't know since I haven't installed it on XP myself since my XP virtual machine is exclusively used for old games and other apps that don't run as well on Win 7. As far as Firefox 10 accessibility goes depends on the screen reader. I've heard Jaws and Window-Eyes users complain that Firefox 10 is not accessible. However, I am using NVDA and Firefox 10 is fully accessible with NVDA. So I think the question of accessibility is one that depends totally on the screen reader being used. Ditto for Internet Explorer 9. As for plugins and Firefox there are a number of ways to manage plugins. If you are having a problem with a certain plugin there are a couple of good things you can do. One, you can download and update the plugin in question and see if it resolves the problem. In many cases what happens is someone updates Firefox without updating all their plugins and Firefox crashes do to incompatibility with plugin x. So checking the plugins for Firefox is one way to correct problems. Two, if a plugin like Quicktime isn't working with Firefox but is working ok with Internet Explorer rather than removing it you can disable it in firefox. To do this do the following. 1. Open the tools menu. 2. Select the add-ons option. 3. Click on the plugins tab. 4. Arrow to the plugin you wish to disable. 5. Tab to the disable button and press enter. After this the plugin will be disabled and Firefox will ignore it. However, it will still be available for Internet Explorer, Chrome, or any other web browsers available on your system. It also helps you to figure out if a certain plugin is causing Firefox to crash by disabling plugins and enabling them one by one until you figure out what is causing it to crash. So as you can see there actually are ways to troubleshoot and fix problems if you know how to handle it. Mostly using the add-ons option under Tools will allow you to configure all of your Firefox add-ons such as enable, disable, add, remove, and update add-ons as needed. Its a classic case of knowing what to do being half the battle. :D Cheers! On 3/11/2012 3:49 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: I have only a few things to say here. I know of several new laptops in Germany which have Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit preinstalled, and that can't be good when things like the features of let's say the ultimate edition are surely missing and when there is a 64 bit version available and might be better suited for the new hardware... And Thomas, can Internet Explorer 9 really be installed on XP? And what about IE 9 accessibility and the same goes for Firefox 10 and the upcoming Firefox 11 as well? And what about the plugin issues with Firefox? How are you supposed to handle them? I have read reports of components like quicktime support in Firefox being unstable or failing. This can't just be fixed by uninstalling the offending object. If we are talking about browser extension, it might be right, but what about content plugins (Flash, Shockwave, Silverlight, Java, Adobe Air and so on)? This is nothing the end user can fix, same goes for other extensions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audysse
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Trouble, thanks. I stand corrected. Guess I should have looked at the system specs before opening my mouth. On 3/11/12, Trouble wrote: > Who ever told you that needs to learn computer > ops. IE9 has no download for xp and won't even run on it. > http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/internet-explorer/products/ie-9/system-requirements > Internet Explorer 9 system requirements --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, No, but I was just pointing out that you don't necessarily have to stick with the default user interface if you don't want it. That there are ways to disable certain features that you don't like while still running the latest OS. Weather you actually want to or not is a separate issue. Although, as you said there really isn't a compelling issue to upgrade right now. Its kind of ironic, but this discussion of XP vs Windows 7 is similar to a discussion on the Linux access lists about Ubuntu 12. Ubuntu 12 ships with new versions of Orca, Libre Office, Firefox, and a number of flagship applications, but Unity 3D, the default desktop, is totally broken in terms of screen reader accessibility. One answer we get from Ubuntu support is to install Gnome from software-center and configure it as the default desktop, or use Unity 2D which has better access. It begs the question, "if I have to install a totally different desktop environment and configure it what's the point in upgrading in the first place?" So I definitely understand where you are coming from. I've been looking at the same situation of weather or not to upgrade any of my Linux machines, and the conclusion I've come to is no. If I am going to have less accessibility in upgrading then Ubuntu 11.04 with Gnome 2.32 and a slightly older version of Libre Office etc is just fine for me. Its all accessible, it all works, and I'm not going to upgrade to Ubuntu 12 to deal with a bunch of hassles with accessibility and wait around for the developers to fix them when I have a working Linux system already. I can wait until they come out with a new version that resolves all of the access issues with Unity before updating. Cheers! On 3/11/12, dark wrote: > hi Tom. > > The only thing is, as I said, if I'm going to be turning off all this stuff > in windows 7, then why have it? that's not exactly a point in it's > favour. > > i will admit the pinning applications to the task bar sounds useful, > though once again I've pretty much done that in xp with shortcut keys for > desktop icons and using shift alt tab, though I will admit windows and > number keys would be less keystrokes. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Well your question made me think again. At 08:08 PM 3/11/2012, you wrote: Hi Trouble, thanks. I stand corrected. Guess I should have looked at the system specs before opening my mouth. On 3/11/12, Trouble wrote: > Who ever told you that needs to learn computer > ops. IE9 has no download for xp and won't even run on it. > http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/internet-explorer/products/ie-9/system-requirements > Internet Explorer 9 system requirements --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Grin. Yeah, its pretty difficult to argue with that logic, because as you say its not what you can do for your PC but what your PC can do for you that counts. If it works, does what you need it to do, then it makes little sense to invest in new hardware and software to do the same thing, and you may actually end up with less than you had before in the end. I know I've come off as a pretty pro Windows 7 user, but actually I've had a lot of mixed feelings about Windows 7. That is to say I've been able to see both the good and the bad firsthand. There are plenty of pros and cons to take into consideration here, and its not all good or all bad. Here is a quick list of some of the things I like and dislike about Win 7. Pros 1. Html Help Browser. One of the changes in Windows Vista/7 is that the help system consists of html files compiled into a chm file. The end result is that the help system contains links, headers, tables, lists, etc like you would expect with any web page and I find it more user friendly than Windows Help in XP. 2. XAudio2 API. Although, XAudio2 is still a bit buggy one of the huge advantages of XAudio2 is that it has support for 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound, and if you have the hardware for 5.1 surround sound movies, games, etc sound totally awesome on Windows 7 in 5.1 surround sound audio. 3. .NET 4.0 ready. Although, you can download .NET 4 for XP its not a full implementation, and its nice to install the OS and know all the .NET core components are preinstalled by default rather than separately. Windows 7 comes with a fully installed and working .NET Framework out of the box which I like since I do a lot of .NET development. 4. Pinning Program Launchers to the Taskbar. This one I've already explained earlier but it is very handy. You can quickly launch your favorite apps right from the Taskbar and switch between them using Windows+1 through Windows+0. Its faster than alt+tabbing through all of your open Windows. 5. Windows Search. The new Windows Search is a combo between run, search, and the Windows address bar. You can type in a program name, file name, or website and the search bar will automatically open it if there is a match. I find it very very handy, and think it is a very nice feature. 6. Burning CDs and DVDs. Its pretty handy being able to just open up Windows Explorer and be able to burn a CD or DVD without having to go out and by Nero, Roxio CD Creator, or some other third-party software. Its a pretty basic CD and DVD writing tool, but should serve most users needs. Cons 1. Windows 7 requires 1 GB of ram, about 4 GB hard drive space, and at least a 1 GHZ processor minimum, and if you want it to run good double that. That's nearly four times the resources of Windows XP or something like Ubuntu Linux. In short, that's insane. 2. Lack of VB 6 support. Since most accessible games are written in VB its something of a hassle to install the missing VB components when XP has them installed already. 3. Lack of 16-bit support. Unfortunately, there are still plenty of Dos games that are accessible, fun to play, but in a single stroke the 64-bit version of Windows 7 rendered those games incompatible with Windows making it more difficult to continue playing them on newer computers. 4. Issues with Sapi voices. While there are more 64-bit Sapi voices available now than there was two years ago it still continues to be a problem. If a person has a 64-bit version of Windows he or she will have to repurchase all of their favorite voices with 64-bit compatibility which isn't always possible or necessarily desirable. For instance, I got a disc with Openbook 8 and Jaws 9 with all the Sapi 5 versions of the Scansoft voices. When I attempt to install them on Windows 7 I get an error that they are not 64-bit compatible and the installation bombs out. As I paid for those voices I'm really really ticked off that I can't use them on my computer and the disc is basically useless on any new computer. 5. The Control Panel. If I leave the Control Panel in html view its impossible to find what I'm looking for unless I memorize where Microsoft put everything. Half the time I can't remember which link to click to bring up the settings I'm looking for because they are usually put in some place that doesn't make any logical sense to me. So like I said there are good things and bad things to be said about Windows 7. This is only an example of the pros and cons I've found, but how important the pros and cons are is completely in the eye of the beholder. It just depends on the person. However, its because of some of those cons that I continue to use XP in a virtual machine because I don't want to give up my Scansoft voices, 16-bit games, etc just for upgrading to Win 7. So sticking with XP for the moment is probably the most rational decision for most people. Cheers! On 3/11/12, dark wrote: > hi Tom. > > But that you've said it yourself. Why should up put up with all the hastles > wit
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Not necessarily 100% relevant/compliant, but it seems to be possible to
actually browse the start menu in a similar fashion to things like windows
XP if you hit windows key, arrow up once to all programs submenu, arrow
right, and then arrow down like twice, and you can then either browse
through all menu items, etc., or do something like hit first letter to move
down to that piece of the programs menu, and then go from there, and the
only funny, remaining thing is that if you then open a programs submenu, and
then arrow down past it, you actually move back up one level and then carry
on down there, but if you then arrow up again, it takes you back to the
still open submenu, etc.
In other words, roundabout the only thing I totally ignore is windows7's
version of the quick start toolbar - called something like taskbar buttons,
and, yes, while it took me a bit of use/time to get used to/like the
windows7 interface at all, it's alright now, and the only other thing I do
have here is what they call the godmode control panel, which makes it quite
a bit better/easier to find things there:
"Create a new folder in a convenient place like the Desktop.
Rename the folder to:
GodMode.{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}
(note that you can change the "GodMode" text, but the following period and
code number are essential).
The folder icon will change, double click it to show the GodMode control
panel"
And, this folder will only show up as godmode, or the name you gave it,
since the . and code will sort of be hidden, but anyway.
The main thing with this godmode is it sort of groups related groups of
control panel items, in groups that you can also open and close using left
and right arrow keys, but anyway.
Stay well
Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
- Original Message -
From: "dark"
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
For me, the reason I prefer the classic start menue is simply that it is
static.
for instance, over the past 10 or so years I've been on the net, I've
worked out a system of subfolders in my start menue. I have an audiogames
folder with games index by developer, a text games folder for eamon deluxe
and if interpreters, a freeware games folder for my graphical games, a
useful programs folder for avg, 7zip, winamp and other handy stuff etc.
I just much prefer having my stuff liked this, layed out like books in a
library than having context sensative this, last used that, and
recommended the other.
For instance, if I want to play gma tank commander, it doesn't matter when
I last played it, I know! i'll find it under audio games/gma games.
Indeed, I might not actually want! to play the last game I played.
Yes, I could use the search box, but just like brousing a set of book
shelves, I like brousing my game directories and thinking "hay, It's been
ages sinse I last played alien outback, why not give that a bash"
Same with favourites in fact. I have folders for work books, audio games,
online brouser games, online books such as darker projects, scifi
resources with subfolders for Dr. who and startrek etc.
I actually enjoy! individually organizing and collecting them, rather than
having the process automated.
That is why I prefer the classic menue in xp, and would use classic shell
in windows 7.
the other thing I found in windows 7, is that windows explorer was far
more annoying to use, in the way it didn't just put you inside folder
subgroups when you click on a folder, it seemed to have random silly
buttons everywhere, and looking at a folders contents was near impossible!
Just like in my favourites, I have my audio books in folders by author,
and music genre and artist folders that I've organized myself.
When I want to play one, I just wander into my c:\music directory (I never
use my music in my documents, I prefer all my actual music in the one
place), find a folder or a track and play it in winamp.
Indeed sometimes I just bang my entire 70 gb music folder on shuffle in
winamp just for the heck of it :d.
I think this is really my problem with modern ui. I treat my computer as a
literal virtual environment that I myself wish to organize, just the same
way I might organize books or dvds on a shelf, with catagories,
subcatagories and the like that I can quickly reach. Where as microsoft
(and from the sound of it the ubuntu lynux developers), what everything
looking flashy with a bazillion buttons all over the place offering you
automated access to lots of stuff that the computer recommends without
having to leave a single screen, the idea having as much information in
the one place and on the one screen as possible, - though from what my
sighted friends say about the ui it
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi tom. that is indeed a nice list of pros and cons, and it is true there are a couple of features that would be useful, I especially like the sound of full 5.1 sinse at the moment I'm working with virtual 3D sound, which is fine, but probably not what it could be. Just as another Ui question though, what about the desktop and windows expllorer in windows 7? when I tried the system, this looked entirely broken and hugely inconvenient for a screen reader, with random stuff all over the place, no clear listed folder structure, and lots of weerd buttons. For instance pressing enter on a folder didn't seem to display it's contents as in xp, it seemed to open it in yet another pain that I had to tab too, and then give under each item some strange buttons to do various things. Is windows explorer really this bad in terms of access? If this is so, then for me this is a major! con, sinse I use windows explorer a great deal. yes, there is the search box, but I don't want to be reliant upon that for everything. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Windows explorer works fine for me, with either jaws or NVDA, and only thing is I don't bother with any form of tree structure, since when I hit windows key + E it lands in a list of drives, arrow around, hit enter on the one I want to go into, same with folders, backspace key to move up one level, etc., and only real settings change is that one of the first things I do on any newly installed version of windows, including XP, is that set folder view to list view, activate status bar off view menu, go to tools menu, arrow up to folder options, ctrl tab to view tab, and on advanced settings make sure file extensions are shown, etc. then hit space bar on apply settings for all folders, and this works well enough for me then. I am also running the windows7 basic theme in display themes, but not sure how relevant that is to windows explorer, but it might be. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi tom. that is indeed a nice list of pros and cons, and it is true there are a couple of features that would be useful, I especially like the sound of full 5.1 sinse at the moment I'm working with virtual 3D sound, which is fine, but probably not what it could be. Just as another Ui question though, what about the desktop and windows expllorer in windows 7? when I tried the system, this looked entirely broken and hugely inconvenient for a screen reader, with random stuff all over the place, no clear listed folder structure, and lots of weerd buttons. For instance pressing enter on a folder didn't seem to display it's contents as in xp, it seemed to open it in yet another pain that I had to tab too, and then give under each item some strange buttons to do various things. Is windows explorer really this bad in terms of access? If this is so, then for me this is a major! con, sinse I use windows explorer a great deal. yes, there is the search box, but I don't want to be reliant upon that for everything. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, As far as Windows Explorer goes I haven't experienced the issue you described. Its true that Windows Explorer is different, has buttons all over the place, etc but that's not effected me using it in the way you described. I'm wondering if this is a screen reader issue as I'm using NVDA without issue with Windows Explorer, or that you simply don't have Windows Explorer setup correctly. For example, if I press enter on Documents Explorer opens up and NVDA lands on the first item in the list. Now, I have my copy of Windows Explorer to display all of my items in a list which is more accessible than the default, and that might be an issue for you as well. By default I think Explorer is set to details which is less user friendly for me and I have to arrow around to find things where setting the view settings to display items in a list does just that so all I have to do is up or down arrow through the list of files and folders. Basically, what I am saying is many of the issues you mention have workarounds. Windows 7 is very accessible. I've not had any serious access issues with it and NVDA. I can't speak for Supernova, of course, but I think if you have an issue with something like Windows Explorer changing the view settings will go a long ways to correcting the issue. Its just a matter of knowing how to reconfigure things in Win 7 to get the most accessibility out of the OS. Its a clear case of "knowing is half the battle." Same could be said for Ubuntu 12. In its default state its not very accessible, but I'm an old Linux user so know how to go in and set everything up so that I have a stable and accessible environment. Just a few days ago I put Ubuntu 12 beta 1 on on a virtual machine. When I installed it I could barely use it because Unity is broken access wise. No problem for me though. I switched over to a console, braught up speakup, and downloaded Gnome 3.2 from the Ubuntu software repository, edited a couple of files for lightdm, rebooted the virtual machine, logged in, and came up with the Orca screen reader and an accessible desktop environment. So what's the moral of the story? Simply this. Don't assume something isn't accessible because you've had bad experiences with it. If you educate yourself on accessibility, learn what features an operating system has for accessibility, talk to others how to resolve accessibility issues, chances are you can get the most out of your operating system. Regardless if we are talking about Windows 7 or the latest Linux release knowing how to resolve access issues will make it possible to stay up to date and be on an equal level with our sighted peers. I think what happens in all too many cases the average blind user tries a piece of software, has trouble with it, and give up on it completely. They assume because they ran into access issues early on that this or that isn't accessible even though there may be ways to workaround the issue or by changing a few default settings a piece of inaccessible software is made accessible. For instance, I remember I was on a tech list where a blind user said Avast was totally inaccessible when he tried it. I asked him if he had gone into preferences and changed a couple of settings. He answered no. The sad part of this particular case is that he didn't know what settings were needed to be changed to make Avast accessible, didn't ask how to make Avast accessible, assumed it wasn't accessible, and uninstalled it without any further investigation what-so-ever. Then, told everyone else it wasn't accessible based on his experience which was extremely limited at best. I'll just sum up by saying that people need to take more time and have a little more patients with software. They shouldn't just assume something isn't accessible or can't be made accessible because they spent a few minutes with it and gave up. Obviously the software is new to them, they haven't learned how to get the most out of the software, and should take some time getting to know it before just writing it off. Cheers! On 3/12/2012 4:08 AM, dark wrote: Hi tom. that is indeed a nice list of pros and cons, and it is true there are a couple of features that would be useful, I especially like the sound of full 5.1 sinse at the moment I'm working with virtual 3D sound, which is fine, but probably not what it could be. Just as another Ui question though, what about the desktop and windows expllorer in windows 7? when I tried the system, this looked entirely broken and hugely inconvenient for a screen reader, with random stuff all over the place, no clear listed folder structure, and lots of weerd buttons. For instance pressing enter on a folder didn't seem to display it's contents as in xp, it seemed to open it in yet another pain that I had to tab too, and then give under each item some strange buttons to do various things. Is windows explorer really this bad in terms of ac
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi, Same here. I set Windows Explorer to list view, turn on file extentions, and turn off the status bar and everything seems to work fine after that. On 3/12/2012 4:26 AM, Jacob Kruger wrote: Windows explorer works fine for me, with either jaws or NVDA, and only thing is I don't bother with any form of tree structure, since when I hit windows key + E it lands in a list of drives, arrow around, hit enter on the one I want to go into, same with folders, backspace key to move up one level, etc., and only real settings change is that one of the first things I do on any newly installed version of windows, including XP, is that set folder view to list view, activate status bar off view menu, go to tools menu, arrow up to folder options, ctrl tab to view tab, and on advanced settings make sure file extensions are shown, etc. then hit space bar on apply settings for all folders, and this works well enough for me then. I am also running the windows7 basic theme in display themes, but not sure how relevant that is to windows explorer, but it might be. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Something is nice with the details view of W7 explorer: you can use left and right arrow to see the size, type, modification date, etc. of a file. Of course turning extensions always on is the first thing to do with a new windows, even since 98. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. It is true that I have my own folders in xp set as lists, and the windows 7 machine I tried wasn't mine, I just wasn't sure whether all those buttons and random controls were part of the interface or could be disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, As far as Windows Explorer goes I haven't experienced the issue you described. Its true that Windows Explorer is different, has buttons all over the place, etc but that's not effected me using it in the way you described. I'm wondering if this is a screen reader issue as I'm using NVDA without issue with Windows Explorer, or that you simply don't have Windows Explorer setup correctly. For example, if I press enter on Documents Explorer opens up and NVDA lands on the first item in the list. Now, I have my copy of Windows Explorer to display all of my items in a list which is more accessible than the default, and that might be an issue for you as well. By default I think Explorer is set to details which is less user friendly for me and I have to arrow around to find things where setting the view settings to display items in a list does just that so all I have to do is up or down arrow through the list of files and folders. Basically, what I am saying is many of the issues you mention have workarounds. Windows 7 is very accessible. I've not had any serious access issues with it and NVDA. I can't speak for Supernova, of course, but I think if you have an issue with something like Windows Explorer changing the view settings will go a long ways to correcting the issue. Its just a matter of knowing how to reconfigure things in Win 7 to get the most accessibility out of the OS. Its a clear case of "knowing is half the battle." Same could be said for Ubuntu 12. In its default state its not very accessible, but I'm an old Linux user so know how to go in and set everything up so that I have a stable and accessible environment. Just a few days ago I put Ubuntu 12 beta 1 on on a virtual machine. When I installed it I could barely use it because Unity is broken access wise. No problem for me though. I switched over to a console, braught up speakup, and downloaded Gnome 3.2 from the Ubuntu software repository, edited a couple of files for lightdm, rebooted the virtual machine, logged in, and came up with the Orca screen reader and an accessible desktop environment. So what's the moral of the story? Simply this. Don't assume something isn't accessible because you've had bad experiences with it. If you educate yourself on accessibility, learn what features an operating system has for accessibility, talk to others how to resolve accessibility issues, chances are you can get the most out of your operating system. Regardless if we are talking about Windows 7 or the latest Linux release knowing how to resolve access issues will make it possible to stay up to date and be on an equal level with our sighted peers. I think what happens in all too many cases the average blind user tries a piece of software, has trouble with it, and give up on it completely. They assume because they ran into access issues early on that this or that isn't accessible even though there may be ways to workaround the issue or by changing a few default settings a piece of inaccessible software is made accessible. For instance, I remember I was on a tech list where a blind user said Avast was totally inaccessible when he tried it. I asked him if he had gone into preferences and changed a couple of settings. He answered no. The sad part of this particular case is that he didn't know what settings were needed to be changed to make Avast accessible, didn't ask how to make Avast accessible, assumed it wasn't accessible, and uninstalled it without any further investigation what-so-ever. Then, told everyone else it wasn't accessible based on his experience which was extremely limited at best. I'll just sum up by saying that people need to take more time and have a little more patients with software. They shouldn't just assume something isn't accessible or can't be made accessible because they spent a few minutes with it and gave up. Obviously the software is new to them, they haven't learned how to get the most out of the software, and should take some time getting to know it before just writing it off. Cheers! On 3/12/2012 4:08 AM, dark wrote: Hi tom. that is indeed a nice list of pros and cons, and it is true there are a couple of features that would be useful, I especially like the sound of full 5.1 sinse at the moment I'm working with virtual 3D sound, which is fine, but probably not what it could be. Just
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with it. That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. Part of the reason for that is that Apple's iOS and Google's Android OS is very trendy. Everything is moving to touch screens, and Microsoft like everyone else is attempting to come up with a touch screen U.I. similar to Apple's touchscreen U.I. for iOS. Windows 8 has a radically new user interface with new touch screen technology which is similar to iOS, and people who love XP will likely hate Win 8 because Microsoft is pandering to the touchscreen users with their new U.I. Same thing is happening in the Linux world too. Ubuntu 12 uses Unity because Cononical is attempting to market Ubuntu Linux for cell phones, tablet PCs, netbooks, etc all with the new touch screen interface we are seeing with iOS, and in order to stay competative Linux distros like Ubuntu have to move away from traditional graphical user interfaces and adopt trendier interfaces like Unity. Which often leaves access technology in the position of playing catch up. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 6:27 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. It is true that I have my own folders in xp set as lists, and the windows 7 machine I tried wasn't mine, I just wasn't sure whether all those buttons and random controls were part of the interface or could be disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with it. That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. Part of the reason for that is that Apple's iOS and Google's Android OS is very trendy. Everything is moving to touch screens, and Microsoft like everyone else is attempting to come up with a touch screen U.I. similar to Apple's touchscreen U.I. for iOS. Windows 8 has a radically new user interface with new touch screen technology which is similar to iOS, and people who love XP will likely hate Win 8 because Microsoft is pandering to the touchscreen users with their new U.I. Same thing is happening in the Linux world too. Ubuntu 12 uses Unity because Cononical is attempting to market Ubuntu Linux for cell phones, tablet PCs, netbooks, etc all with the new touch screen interface we are seeing with iOS, and in order to stay competative Linux distros like Ubuntu have to move away from traditional graphical user interfaces and adopt trendier interfaces like Unity. Which often leaves access technology in the position of playing catch up. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 6:27 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. It is true that I have my own folders in xp set as lists, and the windows 7 machine I tried wasn't mine, I just wasn't sure whether all those buttons and random controls were part of the interface or could be disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Well, I think you know the answer to that already. Microsoft is out to make money, and in order to stay competitive they have to follow whatever trends are popular in the technology market. Since tablets, smart phones, PDAs, and other handheld devices have become the rave over the last few years simply updating XP won't do. They need to redesign the entire user interface from the ground up for those handheld devices. Since the same technology is being ported to the PC market as well Microsoft is simply building the same interface into the desktop OS as for mobile devices, because its more intuitive for a sighted user. VI users are always going to take a backseat to sighted users simply because intuitive visual user interfaces is what drives the market. For example, lets assume you have Windows 8 running on a tablet PC. Now, if you are using a touchscreen you can point at a icon on your taskbar, tap it twice with your finger, and open the app up just like that. It doesn't require navigating menus etc as everything you pin to the taskbar is right there just a finger point away. Its intuitive, easy, and I suppose better for sighted users as they don't even need a mouse to point and click on icons to open them up. Its the next generation user interface, and its being driven by people's exposure to Droid and iPhones. This is just speculation on my part but the way tablet PCs and smart phones are going I look for the standard desktop or laptop to be ancient history by the next decade. Businesses may still continue to use desktop PCs, but the average home user will probably be carrying around tablets running the latest version of Android, iOS, Windows Mobile, Linux, etc just because of the convenience of smaller more handy computers. My dad who just retired last year doesn't go anywhere without his Droid phone. Its not just a phone for him because I've seen him watch movies on Youtube, play games, take notes on it, browse the web, read e-mail, etc all from his phone. He rarely boots his desktop computer, because he can do most things from his phone. This is happening all over the world right now, and that's a very good reason why XP and other traditional desktop operating systems like it are running on borrowed time. Eventually, the handheld market will push the PC industry into adopting newer interfaces like Windows 8 and touchscreens to remain competitive. Weather we like it or not blind computer users will have to adapt to it sooner or later, because we have little say or choice in the matter. That's why I use Windows 7 and will likely upgrade to Windows 8 when it comes out. Eventually, I'll have to change and my philosophy is, "better get use to it sooner than later." Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:41 AM, dark wrote: Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
As far as touch goes your right its showing more and more. Even vista has some touch screen stuff. The only hold back is monitors, not many have it but that will be changing too. At 08:31 AM 3/13/2012, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, I think you know the answer to that already. Microsoft is out to make money, and in order to stay competitive they have to follow whatever trends are popular in the technology market. Since tablets, smart phones, PDAs, and other handheld devices have become the rave over the last few years simply updating XP won't do. They need to redesign the entire user interface from the ground up for those handheld devices. Since the same technology is being ported to the PC market as well Microsoft is simply building the same interface into the desktop OS as for mobile devices, because its more intuitive for a sighted user. VI users are always going to take a backseat to sighted users simply because intuitive visual user interfaces is what drives the market. For example, lets assume you have Windows 8 running on a tablet PC. Now, if you are using a touchscreen you can point at a icon on your taskbar, tap it twice with your finger, and open the app up just like that. It doesn't require navigating menus etc as everything you pin to the taskbar is right there just a finger point away. Its intuitive, easy, and I suppose better for sighted users as they don't even need a mouse to point and click on icons to open them up. Its the next generation user interface, and its being driven by people's exposure to Droid and iPhones. This is just speculation on my part but the way tablet PCs and smart phones are going I look for the standard desktop or laptop to be ancient history by the next decade. Businesses may still continue to use desktop PCs, but the average home user will probably be carrying around tablets running the latest version of Android, iOS, Windows Mobile, Linux, etc just because of the convenience of smaller more handy computers. My dad who just retired last year doesn't go anywhere without his Droid phone. Its not just a phone for him because I've seen him watch movies on Youtube, play games, take notes on it, browse the web, read e-mail, etc all from his phone. He rarely boots his desktop computer, because he can do most things from his phone. This is happening all over the world right now, and that's a very good reason why XP and other traditional desktop operating systems like it are running on borrowed time. Eventually, the handheld market will push the PC industry into adopting newer interfaces like Windows 8 and touchscreens to remain competitive. Weather we like it or not blind computer users will have to adapt to it sooner or later, because we have little say or choice in the matter. That's why I use Windows 7 and will likely upgrade to Windows 8 when it comes out. Eventually, I'll have to change and my philosophy is, "better get use to it sooner than later." Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:41 AM, dark wrote: Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I agree tom, prophiteering capitalist scumbags run things unfortunately. Myself however I disagree with your philosophy of "get it and get used to it" as I've said before, windows 7 would stop! me doing more stuff, so why should I use it? I use a parrot voice mate, which is one of the finest hand held personal organizers I've ever found, and great for phone numbers, voice notes etc. Should I stop using it becuase the firm that make them have gone bust? Heck no! of course, if I replace my laptop with an Iphone with voiceover, I'll probably no longer need the parrot voicemate, sinse the Iphone will do most of those functions, but sinse I currently just use a phone that is just a phone, and does nothing fancy, and would cost a lot of money to get a speech synth for it, I'll stick with the voicemate because it works for what I want. I don't really see why i should get used to doing something just because it is the latest thing and I'll have to change eventually, indeed I'll probably try and keep my desktop going as long as possible and change only if it looks like a better option is available with a newer system. Btw, I agree about hand helds taking over, however I don't think the desktop pc will be quite gone, simply because of the amount of people who (like myself), use it as a general multimedia device. i use my pc for watching films, laying games etc, on a decent sized screen connected to a set of speakers, and that is one use that the hand held would never fill simply because the idea of connecting a hand held to a home cinema system or full sized screen is a bit ridiculous. I think laptops will be a thing of the past, but the desktop I still see as staying around exactly for this reason, even if the ui does irritatingly change. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I think you know the answer to that already. Microsoft is out to make money, and in order to stay competitive they have to follow whatever trends are popular in the technology market. Since tablets, smart phones, PDAs, and other handheld devices have become the rave over the last few years simply updating XP won't do. They need to redesign the entire user interface from the ground up for those handheld devices. Since the same technology is being ported to the PC market as well Microsoft is simply building the same interface into the desktop OS as for mobile devices, because its more intuitive for a sighted user. VI users are always going to take a backseat to sighted users simply because intuitive visual user interfaces is what drives the market. For example, lets assume you have Windows 8 running on a tablet PC. Now, if you are using a touchscreen you can point at a icon on your taskbar, tap it twice with your finger, and open the app up just like that. It doesn't require navigating menus etc as everything you pin to the taskbar is right there just a finger point away. Its intuitive, easy, and I suppose better for sighted users as they don't even need a mouse to point and click on icons to open them up. Its the next generation user interface, and its being driven by people's exposure to Droid and iPhones. This is just speculation on my part but the way tablet PCs and smart phones are going I look for the standard desktop or laptop to be ancient history by the next decade. Businesses may still continue to use desktop PCs, but the average home user will probably be carrying around tablets running the latest version of Android, iOS, Windows Mobile, Linux, etc just because of the convenience of smaller more handy computers. My dad who just retired last year doesn't go anywhere without his Droid phone. Its not just a phone for him because I've seen him watch movies on Youtube, play games, take notes on it, browse the web, read e-mail, etc all from his phone. He rarely boots his desktop computer, because he can do most things from his phone. This is happening all over the world right now, and that's a very good reason why XP and other traditional desktop operating systems like it are running on borrowed time. Eventually, the handheld market will push the PC industry into adopting newer interfaces like Windows 8 and touchscreens to remain competitive. Weather we like it or not blind computer users will have to adapt to it sooner or later, because we have little say or choice in the matter. That's why I use Windows 7 and will likely upgrade to Windows 8 when it comes out. Eventually, I'll have to change and my philosophy is, "better get use to it sooner than later." Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:41 AM, dark wrote: Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Good
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Not really relevant, but will just mention that with regard to phones, and large screens, etc., I think my nokia N82/N86 came with a TV out adapter...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly I agree tom, prophiteering capitalist scumbags run things unfortunately. Myself however I disagree with your philosophy of "get it and get used to it" as I've said before, windows 7 would stop! me doing more stuff, so why should I use it? I use a parrot voice mate, which is one of the finest hand held personal organizers I've ever found, and great for phone numbers, voice notes etc. Should I stop using it becuase the firm that make them have gone bust? Heck no! of course, if I replace my laptop with an Iphone with voiceover, I'll probably no longer need the parrot voicemate, sinse the Iphone will do most of those functions, but sinse I currently just use a phone that is just a phone, and does nothing fancy, and would cost a lot of money to get a speech synth for it, I'll stick with the voicemate because it works for what I want. I don't really see why i should get used to doing something just because it is the latest thing and I'll have to change eventually, indeed I'll probably try and keep my desktop going as long as possible and change only if it looks like a better option is available with a newer system. Btw, I agree about hand helds taking over, however I don't think the desktop pc will be quite gone, simply because of the amount of people who (like myself), use it as a general multimedia device. i use my pc for watching films, laying games etc, on a decent sized screen connected to a set of speakers, and that is one use that the hand held would never fill simply because the idea of connecting a hand held to a home cinema system or full sized screen is a bit ridiculous. I think laptops will be a thing of the past, but the desktop I still see as staying around exactly for this reason, even if the ui does irritatingly change. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I think you know the answer to that already. Microsoft is out to make money, and in order to stay competitive they have to follow whatever trends are popular in the technology market. Since tablets, smart phones, PDAs, and other handheld devices have become the rave over the last few years simply updating XP won't do. They need to redesign the entire user interface from the ground up for those handheld devices. Since the same technology is being ported to the PC market as well Microsoft is simply building the same interface into the desktop OS as for mobile devices, because its more intuitive for a sighted user. VI users are always going to take a backseat to sighted users simply because intuitive visual user interfaces is what drives the market. For example, lets assume you have Windows 8 running on a tablet PC. Now, if you are using a touchscreen you can point at a icon on your taskbar, tap it twice with your finger, and open the app up just like that. It doesn't require navigating menus etc as everything you pin to the taskbar is right there just a finger point away. Its intuitive, easy, and I suppose better for sighted users as they don't even need a mouse to point and click on icons to open them up. Its the next generation user interface, and its being driven by people's exposure to Droid and iPhones. This is just speculation on my part but the way tablet PCs and smart phones are going I look for the standard desktop or laptop to be ancient history by the next decade. Businesses may still continue to use desktop PCs, but the average home user will probably be carrying around tablets running the latest version of Android, iOS, Windows Mobile, Linux, etc just because of the convenience of smaller more handy computers. My dad who just retired last year doesn't go anywhere without his Droid phone. Its not just a phone for him because I've seen him watch movies on Youtube, play games, take notes on it, browse the web, read e-mail, etc all from his phone. He rarely boots his desktop computer, because he can do most things from his phone. This is happening all over the world right now, and that's a very good reason why XP and other traditional desktop operating systems like it are running on borrowed time. Eventually, the handheld market will push the PC industry into adopting newer interfaces like Windows 8 and touchscreens to remain competitive. Weather we like
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
yep it does come with one. At 09:21 AM 3/13/2012, you wrote: Not really relevant, but will just mention that with regard to phones, and large screens, etc., I think my nokia N82/N86 came with a TV out adapter...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly I agree tom, prophiteering capitalist scumbags run things unfortunately. Myself however I disagree with your philosophy of "get it and get used to it" as I've said before, windows 7 would stop! me doing more stuff, so why should I use it? I use a parrot voice mate, which is one of the finest hand held personal organizers I've ever found, and great for phone numbers, voice notes etc. Should I stop using it becuase the firm that make them have gone bust? Heck no! of course, if I replace my laptop with an Iphone with voiceover, I'll probably no longer need the parrot voicemate, sinse the Iphone will do most of those functions, but sinse I currently just use a phone that is just a phone, and does nothing fancy, and would cost a lot of money to get a speech synth for it, I'll stick with the voicemate because it works for what I want. I don't really see why i should get used to doing something just because it is the latest thing and I'll have to change eventually, indeed I'll probably try and keep my desktop going as long as possible and change only if it looks like a better option is available with a newer system. Btw, I agree about hand helds taking over, however I don't think the desktop pc will be quite gone, simply because of the amount of people who (like myself), use it as a general multimedia device. i use my pc for watching films, laying games etc, on a decent sized screen connected to a set of speakers, and that is one use that the hand held would never fill simply because the idea of connecting a hand held to a home cinema system or full sized screen is a bit ridiculous. I think laptops will be a thing of the past, but the desktop I still see as staying around exactly for this reason, even if the ui does irritatingly change. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, I think you know the answer to that already. Microsoft is out to make money, and in order to stay competitive they have to follow whatever trends are popular in the technology market. Since tablets, smart phones, PDAs, and other handheld devices have become the rave over the last few years simply updating XP won't do. They need to redesign the entire user interface from the ground up for those handheld devices. Since the same technology is being ported to the PC market as well Microsoft is simply building the same interface into the desktop OS as for mobile devices, because its more intuitive for a sighted user. VI users are always going to take a backseat to sighted users simply because intuitive visual user interfaces is what drives the market. For example, lets assume you have Windows 8 running on a tablet PC. Now, if you are using a touchscreen you can point at a icon on your taskbar, tap it twice with your finger, and open the app up just like that. It doesn't require navigating menus etc as everything you pin to the taskbar is right there just a finger point away. Its intuitive, easy, and I suppose better for sighted users as they don't even need a mouse to point and click on icons to open them up. Its the next generation user interface, and its being driven by people's exposure to Droid and iPhones. This is just speculation on my part but the way tablet PCs and smart phones are going I look for the standard desktop or laptop to be ancient history by the next decade. Businesses may still continue to use desktop PCs, but the average home user will probably be carrying around tablets running the latest version of Android, iOS, Windows Mobile, Linux, etc just because of the convenience of smaller more handy computers. My dad who just retired last year doesn't go anywhere without his Droid phone. Its not just a phone for him because I've seen him watch movies on Youtube, play games, take notes on it, browse the web, read e-mail, etc all from his phone. He rarely boots his desktop computer, because he can do most things from his phone. This is happening all over the world right now, and that's a very good reason why XP and other traditional desktop operating systems like it are running on borrowed time. Eventually, the handheld market will push the PC industry into adopting newer interfaces like Wind
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I agree. I know we're a minority but I still think we should be able to have a choice regarding this, a lot of us will be left in the cold if the big companies get their way. Or should I say when they get their way. Amanda -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:41 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with it. That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. Part of the reason for that is that Apple's iOS and Google's Android OS is very trendy. Everything is moving to touch screens, and Microsoft like everyone else is attempting to come up with a touch screen U.I. similar to Apple's touchscreen U.I. for iOS. Windows 8 has a radically new user interface with new touch screen technology which is similar to iOS, and people who love XP will likely hate Win 8 because Microsoft is pandering to the touchscreen users with their new U.I. Same thing is happening in the Linux world too. Ubuntu 12 uses Unity because Cononical is attempting to market Ubuntu Linux for cell phones, tablet PCs, netbooks, etc all with the new touch screen interface we are seeing with iOS, and in order to stay competative Linux distros like Ubuntu have to move away from traditional graphical user interfaces and adopt trendier interfaces like Unity. Which often leaves access technology in the position of playing catch up. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 6:27 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. It is true that I have my own folders in xp set as lists, and the windows 7 machine I tried wasn't mine, I just wasn't sure whether all those buttons and random controls were part of the interface or could be disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
As a programmer and developer, I understand completely why Microsoft (or any developer for that matter) would want to discontinue an older product. Maintenance is expensive and irritating. Keep in mind that if they simply try to "continue" XP (and every other product that some minority group prefers), they will lose money. If they go broke, there are no more products. How do you think MS pays for XP maintenance right now? They do it with sales of products that make money. XP doesn't make money anymore, and they couldn't make it pay for itself if they tried. I've had similar complaints come up on Alter Aeon - why don't I just make ltypes 0 and 1 optional, why don't I just make PPK optional, why don't I bring up separate servers that allow multiplaying, etc. If I tried to do even a fraction of these things, AA would never progress because I'd be spending all my time maintaining crap that doesn't actually make the game any better. All developers have to pick and choose their battles. Microsoft is no different. I know it may be irritating to have to change your ways or learn new things, but the fact of the matter is that we can't all be expecting windows 3.1 (or whatever your favorite version is) to work the same way for the next 20 years. Change happens. It may not seem like it, but usually, it actually is for the better. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Amanda Burt wrote: > Â I agree. Â I know we're a minority but I still think we should be able to > have a choice regarding this, a lot of us will be left in the cold if the > big companies get their way. Â Or should I say when they get their way. > > Amanda > > -Original Message- From: dark > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:41 AM > To: Gamers Discussion list > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly > > Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. > > Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame > after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but > once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the > stick. > > I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of > windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there > are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly > > >> >> Hi Dark, >> >> Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. >> I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I >> didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first >> encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize >> Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with >> it. >> >> That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the >> betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons >> and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really >> was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed >> before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a >> dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. >> >> Part of the reason for that is that Apple's iOS and Google's Android OS is >> very trendy. Everything is moving to touch screens, and Microsoft like >> everyone else is attempting to come up with a touch screen U.I. similar to >> Apple's touchscreen U.I. for iOS. Â Windows 8 has a radically new user >> interface with new touch screen technology which is similar to iOS, and >> people who love XP will likely hate Win 8 because Microsoft is pandering to >> the touchscreen users with their new U.I. >> >> Same thing is happening in the Linux world too. Ubuntu 12 uses Unity >> because Cononical is attempting to market Ubuntu Linux for cell phones, >> tablet PCs, netbooks, etc all with the new touch screen interface we are >> seeing with iOS, and in order to stay competative Linux distros like Ubuntu >> have to move away from traditional graphical user interfaces and adopt >> trendier interfaces like Unity. Which often leaves access technology in the >> position of playing catch up. >> >> Cheers! >> >> On 3/13/2012 6:27 AM, dark wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom. >>> >>> It is true th
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
well a gwmicro win eyes csun review has win8 going to uia more meaning no drivers are required. Ofcause if ms had done this before we relied on sapi, mssa and a whole bunch of other libs for access it would be ok. It sounds like though ti will be better for everyone, however why they made us use all that junk if it was going to be put in a few years into 1 library thats the issue. At 11:41 a.m. 13/03/2012 +, you wrote: Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with it. That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. Part of the reason for that is that Apple's iOS and Google's Android OS is very trendy. Everything is moving to touch screens, and Microsoft like everyone else is attempting to come up with a touch screen U.I. similar to Apple's touchscreen U.I. for iOS. Windows 8 has a radically new user interface with new touch screen technology which is similar to iOS, and people who love XP will likely hate Win 8 because Microsoft is pandering to the touchscreen users with their new U.I. Same thing is happening in the Linux world too. Ubuntu 12 uses Unity because Cononical is attempting to market Ubuntu Linux for cell phones, tablet PCs, netbooks, etc all with the new touch screen interface we are seeing with iOS, and in order to stay competative Linux distros like Ubuntu have to move away from traditional graphical user interfaces and adopt trendier interfaces like Unity. Which often leaves access technology in the position of playing catch up. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 6:27 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. It is true that I have my own folders in xp set as lists, and the windows 7 machine I tried wasn't mine, I just wasn't sure whether all those buttons and random controls were part of the interface or could be disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Well tom I aggree with you, except for one ms has shown they don't or won't want to put accessability in a phone. If what you say is true, then in a few years or so we will all run android os on our pcs and I look foreward to that day!! Windows touch will not be as accessable as other tablet oses like iphone or android. ANd until it is we will have to be annoyed by it not being so. Saying that, I have a friend in the education industry and it seems its going back to 34 grand braille note tablets running windows ce so maybe if it ever dropps as you say we will be carrying round several of those gismos. I wander what that will do to the existing audiogames industry. At 08:31 a.m. 13/03/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, I think you know the answer to that already. Microsoft is out to make money, and in order to stay competitive they have to follow whatever trends are popular in the technology market. Since tablets, smart phones, PDAs, and other handheld devices have become the rave over the last few years simply updating XP won't do. They need to redesign the entire user interface from the ground up for those handheld devices. Since the same technology is being ported to the PC market as well Microsoft is simply building the same interface into the desktop OS as for mobile devices, because its more intuitive for a sighted user. VI users are always going to take a backseat to sighted users simply because intuitive visual user interfaces is what drives the market. For example, lets assume you have Windows 8 running on a tablet PC. Now, if you are using a touchscreen you can point at a icon on your taskbar, tap it twice with your finger, and open the app up just like that. It doesn't require navigating menus etc as everything you pin to the taskbar is right there just a finger point away. Its intuitive, easy, and I suppose better for sighted users as they don't even need a mouse to point and click on icons to open them up. Its the next generation user interface, and its being driven by people's exposure to Droid and iPhones. This is just speculation on my part but the way tablet PCs and smart phones are going I look for the standard desktop or laptop to be ancient history by the next decade. Businesses may still continue to use desktop PCs, but the average home user will probably be carrying around tablets running the latest version of Android, iOS, Windows Mobile, Linux, etc just because of the convenience of smaller more handy computers. My dad who just retired last year doesn't go anywhere without his Droid phone. Its not just a phone for him because I've seen him watch movies on Youtube, play games, take notes on it, browse the web, read e-mail, etc all from his phone. He rarely boots his desktop computer, because he can do most things from his phone. This is happening all over the world right now, and that's a very good reason why XP and other traditional desktop operating systems like it are running on borrowed time. Eventually, the handheld market will push the PC industry into adopting newer interfaces like Windows 8 and touchscreens to remain competitive. Weather we like it or not blind computer users will have to adapt to it sooner or later, because we have little say or choice in the matter. That's why I use Windows 7 and will likely upgrade to Windows 8 when it comes out. Eventually, I'll have to change and my philosophy is, "better get use to it sooner than later." Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:41 AM, dark wrote: Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
And wwhere are the still existing computer or netbook and laptop users whoose hardware doesn't have touchscreen capabilities? Do they think at all? Surely, android might look nice, but what is more important, the look or the functionality? And who exactly thinks that the visual design of Android or IOS is cool? And moreover, Android and IOS devices are not exactly like a desktop computer, so why should a desktop computer have the interface of another device in the first place? Why must it all be alike? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
All of this might be true... But I have several questions. If mobile devices and new technologies are created and let's say touchscreens are so great, why not take it up another level and finally create a computer system like the fictional LCARS from Star Trek, where you have instant access to your data and where you have the option of full real time interactive voice control plus voice output of everything? Surely voice input and output shouldn't be desired by blind users in the world alone, it could be adapted for everyone. And the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of mobile devices in general. I was born blind and could never see, nor do I currently have a device like an IPhone... But I'd like to ask anyone who could see at some point in their life to tell me why watching some HD videos on super small mobile displays or playing complex and graphically intensive games with said small devices instead of using more stationary devices and large screens capable of handling digital HD media? I can understand why people would like to have more functions in small devices. But things like listening to music with more than two speakers like 5.1 or 7.1 audio systems or watching high resolution movies and such surely should remain on the currently needed technology instead of being ported to small devices unless you can adapt them as well to handle all this. I don't know what the processing capabilities of android phones are or what said capabilities are for other mobile devices, but I doubt that they are really better than current high tech computing equipment and the big computer networks and super computers. Surely, there is still time for such developments, but the question remains who does set such trents and can companies like Microsoft influence or stop such trents, because Microsoft is not small and should have considerable power, so it could be asked if Microsoft must adapt, or could Microsoft force others to adapt to whatever they create. Besides, why do we or companies have to follow and copy whatever someone makes before us? This discussion of user interfaces (Office 2003 vs 2007 design for example) is pointless in my opinion. I personally don't have problems with the idea of changing the design of a program. But we do we have to be forced to a design. Let's take the Office 2007 design for an example. I have read several reports and posts in various forums (sighted users) where people were not happy with the new design not because they had to learn new things, but because they did not have a choice in the matter meaning that everyone who got the new Office for whatever reason had to use the new design. But what I never got in this talk was, why Microsoft did not offer two designs? Look at Windows Media Player or Winamp. Both programs have skins which you can download or create yourself to alter and customice the interface of your program. But why don't more programs have the option for skins (surely it can't be because they want to make money, because you could theoretically sell anything you develop). So, what is the problem with the talks of designs and user feedback companies are getting and seemingly ignore here and there sometimes? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
You only have a choice if you buy the computer. If the org's buy them. Then you will get what is current on the market, and now that is win7. At 04:09 PM 3/13/2012, you wrote: I agree. I know we're a minority but I still think we should be able to have a choice regarding this, a lot of us will be left in the cold if the big companies get their way. Or should I say when they get their way. Amanda -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:41 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with it. That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. Part of the reason for that is that Apple's iOS and Google's Android OS is very trendy. Everything is moving to touch screens, and Microsoft like everyone else is attempting to come up with a touch screen U.I. similar to Apple's touchscreen U.I. for iOS. Windows 8 has a radically new user interface with new touch screen technology which is similar to iOS, and people who love XP will likely hate Win 8 because Microsoft is pandering to the touchscreen users with their new U.I. Same thing is happening in the Linux world too. Ubuntu 12 uses Unity because Cononical is attempting to market Ubuntu Linux for cell phones, tablet PCs, netbooks, etc all with the new touch screen interface we are seeing with iOS, and in order to stay competative Linux distros like Ubuntu have to move away from traditional graphical user interfaces and adopt trendier interfaces like Unity. Which often leaves access technology in the position of playing catch up. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 6:27 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. It is true that I have my own folders in xp set as lists, and the windows 7 machine I tried wasn't mine, I just wasn't sure whether all those buttons and random controls were part of the interface or could be disabled. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsub
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
The more its alike the less sighted mousers have to learn. Learn one system and you know them all. At 07:59 PM 3/13/2012, you wrote: And wwhere are the still existing computer or netbook and laptop users whoose hardware doesn't have touchscreen capabilities? Do they think at all? Surely, android might look nice, but what is more important, the look or the functionality? And who exactly thinks that the visual design of Android or IOS is cool? And moreover, Android and IOS devices are not exactly like a desktop computer, so why should a desktop computer have the interface of another device in the first place? Why must it all be alike? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
That is coming, but for now they want to suck all the money out of the public they can. At 07:55 PM 3/13/2012, you wrote: All of this might be true... But I have several questions. If mobile devices and new technologies are created and let's say touchscreens are so great, why not take it up another level and finally create a computer system like the fictional LCARS from Star Trek, where you have instant access to your data and where you have the option of full real time interactive voice control plus voice output of everything? Surely voice input and output shouldn't be desired by blind users in the world alone, it could be adapted for everyone. And the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of mobile devices in general. I was born blind and could never see, nor do I currently have a device like an IPhone... But I'd like to ask anyone who could see at some point in their life to tell me why watching some HD videos on super small mobile displays or playing complex and graphically intensive games with said small devices instead of using more stationary devices and large screens capable of handling digital HD media? I can understand why people would like to have more functions in small devices. But things like listening to music with more than two speakers like 5.1 or 7.1 audio systems or watching high resolution movies and such surely should remain on the currently needed technology instead of being ported to small devices unless you can adapt them as well to handle all this. I don't know what the processing capabilities of android phones are or what said capabilities are for other mobile devices, but I doubt that they are really better than current high tech computing equipment and the big computer networks and super computers. Surely, there is still time for such developments, but the question remains who does set such trents and can companies like Microsoft influence or stop such trents, because Microsoft is not small and should have considerable power, so it could be asked if Microsoft must adapt, or could Microsoft force others to adapt to whatever they create. Besides, why do we or companies have to follow and copy whatever someone makes before us? This discussion of user interfaces (Office 2003 vs 2007 design for example) is pointless in my opinion. I personally don't have problems with the idea of changing the design of a program. But we do we have to be forced to a design. Let's take the Office 2007 design for an example. I have read several reports and posts in various forums (sighted users) where people were not happy with the new design not because they had to learn new things, but because they did not have a choice in the matter meaning that everyone who got the new Office for whatever reason had to use the new design. But what I never got in this talk was, why Microsoft did not offer two designs? Look at Windows Media Player or Winamp. Both programs have skins which you can download or create yourself to alter and customice the interface of your program. But why don't more programs have the option for skins (surely it can't be because they want to make money, because you could theoretically sell anything you develop). So, what is the problem with the talks of designs and user feedback companies are getting and seemingly ignore here and there sometimes? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dennis. the problem is this isn't about learning new things or preferring older systems, this is about access. As per my phd thesis, access = equal, or as close to equal as possible amounts of effort betwene groups with different biological limitations, and whatever way you cut the cookie, more and more effort is having to be expanded with the newer trends in Ui microsoft are implementing. It's rather like a building being rennivated and putting in escalators while wripping up the old ramps that paraplegics could use to enter. It is true that there is little to know prophet in access, however if we followed that line of thinking to it's ultimate conclusion, very little would be accessible. Access is an ethical matter and as such falls outside te of the basic tennits of capitalism, and this is why we can cryticise microsoft mainstream game companies etc, for following prophet only rather than access measures (indeed this is where Carl marx was exactly right in noting that the persuit of prophit is itself an amoral motivation, not an ethical one). plus I might add that "saving money" seems a pretty feeble excuse for the worlds richest coorporation which is paying most of it's manual workers in china and tyland a pittance. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: "Dennis Towne" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly As a programmer and developer, I understand completely why Microsoft (or any developer for that matter) would want to discontinue an older product. Maintenance is expensive and irritating. Keep in mind that if they simply try to "continue" XP (and every other product that some minority group prefers), they will lose money. If they go broke, there are no more products. How do you think MS pays for XP maintenance right now? They do it with sales of products that make money. XP doesn't make money anymore, and they couldn't make it pay for itself if they tried. I've had similar complaints come up on Alter Aeon - why don't I just make ltypes 0 and 1 optional, why don't I just make PPK optional, why don't I bring up separate servers that allow multiplaying, etc. If I tried to do even a fraction of these things, AA would never progress because I'd be spending all my time maintaining crap that doesn't actually make the game any better. All developers have to pick and choose their battles. Microsoft is no different. I know it may be irritating to have to change your ways or learn new things, but the fact of the matter is that we can't all be expecting windows 3.1 (or whatever your favorite version is) to work the same way for the next 20 years. Change happens. It may not seem like it, but usually, it actually is for the better. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Amanda Burt wrote: I agree. I know we're a minority but I still think we should be able to have a choice regarding this, a lot of us will be left in the cold if the big companies get their way. Or should I say when they get their way. Amanda -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:41 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Yep, once again why can't microsoft just continue xp? :D. Goodness knows what will happen with access tech and windows 8, it's a shame after very stable access to xp that things are moving in this direction, but once again because vi users are a minority we get the short end of the stick. I have at least heard that ribbons are so disliked they're coming out of windows 8, and I've also heard windows 8 has 16 bit compatibility, so there are at least a couple of pluses there albeit small ones. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Yes, unfortunately all the buttons etc are a part of the new interface. I've used Vista and now Windows 7 so have had time to get use to them, but I didn't care too much for the new version of Explorer either when I first encountered it under Vista. However, I have at least managed to customize Explorer enough that I can ignore all the extra junk that comes along with it. That said, you should have seen the Explorer that came with some of the betas of Windows 8. Now, that was a nightmare. In addition to the buttons and other crap the menubar had been replaced with the ribbons that really was a major turn off. Now, I hear the ribbons are suppose to be removed before final release and let's hope so. Although, Windows 8 will be a dramatic departcher from XP and even Windows 7 as far as the U.I. goes. Part of the reason for that is that Apple
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Well, like I've said before there isn't much use in upgrading if it doesn't offer anything new for you personally. However, I am someone who likes to be on the bleeding edge, try new things, and I've always enjoyed staying up to date when and where possible. So that's largely where I'm coming from. Although, upgrading isn't necessarily always better for everyone, and we all have different preferences. I realize that as much as the next guy. My basic point isn't that you need to upgrade, or that you shouldn't use your own preferences in upgrading. Obviously, you should do what works for you at the moment, but you should be prepared to change if and when it becomes a necessity. For example, you've got a laptop running XP, it does everything you want it to do, so don't need to upgrade right now. However, lets say you have some serious hardware failure and that laptop dies. What will you do? Will you go on Ebay and buy a used laptop just to get another XP machine, or will you go to your favorite computer store and buy a new laptop with Win 7? The point being that change is inevitable. Yeah, there may not be a pressing need to upgrade right now, and you might not have to for several years. Sooner or later you'll probably have to buy a new laptop or desktop running Windows 7, Windows 8, or later on it to replace your older hardware and software. That's basically all I'm saying. As far as your opinion that desktops will stay and laptops will be a thing of the past in favor of hand-helds I personally disagree. One reason for that is that netbooks are very popular right now. Last year more netbooks were sold than desktops, and for good reason. They are smaller, lighter, more portible and more like the hand-held devices like tablet PCs I was talking about. Plus most laptops are as good as their desktop counterparts. For example, I got a Toshiba last October. Even though this isn't a high-end model it has a full sized keyboard, 17 inch display, DVD reader/writer, a duel core 2 GHZ 64-bit processor, 3 GB of ram, a 3d graphics card, etc. Basically, its specs are similar to the average desktop available at the same time I purchased my laptop. Plus the price on laptops have come way down and aren't any more than a desktop PC. So when I look at it I'm not at all sure the average consumer is willing to go out and buy a desktop PC when a laptop can do the same thing, costs about the same, and is smaller and easier to store. As you know I often do tech support on the side and what I've been seeing is mostly laptops for the last couple of years. Desktop sales have fallen here in the united states and I think the figures pretty much speak for themselves that desktops are more likely to be a thing of the past before laptops and netbooks. As a matter of fact I just helped a neighbor with her new laptop a couple of weeks ago. She got a new H.P. laptop and wireless printer and I had to help her get her printer working. As we were working I made a comment to the effect her new laptop was really light. She replied that she use to have one of those big desktops, it was too big for her apartment, so her and her husband decided to buy a small computer so she could put it away when she wasn't using it. She likes her laptop a lot better than the big desktop. Since my apartment is small, and I don't have room for a desktop either obviously size really does matter in certain cases. More and more people like this neighbor and myself are using laptops because we don't have to deal with a tower, big monitor, external keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, etc all sitting on a desk taking up room. A laptop is very compact with the keyboard, mouse, and monitor all in one, and can be folded up and stored in a desk drawer when not being used. Like hand-helds laptops are more convenient than desktops and I believe it makes them more commercially viable for the average consumer. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 9:13 AM, dark wrote: I agree tom, prophiteering capitalist scumbags run things unfortunately. Myself however I disagree with your philosophy of "get it and get used to it" as I've said before, windows 7 would stop! me doing more stuff, so why should I use it? I use a parrot voice mate, which is one of the finest hand held personal organizers I've ever found, and great for phone numbers, voice notes etc. Should I stop using it becuase the firm that make them have gone bust? Heck no! of course, if I replace my laptop with an Iphone with voiceover, I'll probably no longer need the parrot voicemate, sinse the Iphone will do most of those functions, but sinse I currently just use a phone that is just a phone, and does nothing fancy, and would cost a lot of money to get a speech synth for it, I'll stick with the voicemate because it works for what I want. I don't really see why i should get used to doing something just because it is the latest thing and I'll
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
This is also one of the reasons I have the virtual machine versions of things like windowsXP running inside my windows7 machine - for bits of backward software compatibility occasionally. As in agree that want to make use of/play around with bleeding edge/new things, but sometimes, it might help to have the possibility to drift backward in time - temporarily... Think a sighted friend of mine reckons he can also run some virtual operating systems on his one android unit as well, but anyway... Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, like I've said before there isn't much use in upgrading if it doesn't offer anything new for you personally. However, I am someone who likes to be on the bleeding edge, try new things, and I've always enjoyed staying up to date when and where possible. So that's largely where I'm coming from. Although, upgrading isn't necessarily always better for everyone, and we all have different preferences. I realize that as much as the next guy. My basic point isn't that you need to upgrade, or that you shouldn't use your own preferences in upgrading. Obviously, you should do what works for you at the moment, but you should be prepared to change if and when it becomes a necessity. For example, you've got a laptop running XP, it does everything you want it to do, so don't need to upgrade right now. However, lets say you have some serious hardware failure and that laptop dies. What will you do? Will you go on Ebay and buy a used laptop just to get another XP machine, or will you go to your favorite computer store and buy a new laptop with Win 7? The point being that change is inevitable. Yeah, there may not be a pressing need to upgrade right now, and you might not have to for several years. Sooner or later you'll probably have to buy a new laptop or desktop running Windows 7, Windows 8, or later on it to replace your older hardware and software. That's basically all I'm saying. As far as your opinion that desktops will stay and laptops will be a thing of the past in favor of hand-helds I personally disagree. One reason for that is that netbooks are very popular right now. Last year more netbooks were sold than desktops, and for good reason. They are smaller, lighter, more portible and more like the hand-held devices like tablet PCs I was talking about. Plus most laptops are as good as their desktop counterparts. For example, I got a Toshiba last October. Even though this isn't a high-end model it has a full sized keyboard, 17 inch display, DVD reader/writer, a duel core 2 GHZ 64-bit processor, 3 GB of ram, a 3d graphics card, etc. Basically, its specs are similar to the average desktop available at the same time I purchased my laptop. Plus the price on laptops have come way down and aren't any more than a desktop PC. So when I look at it I'm not at all sure the average consumer is willing to go out and buy a desktop PC when a laptop can do the same thing, costs about the same, and is smaller and easier to store. As you know I often do tech support on the side and what I've been seeing is mostly laptops for the last couple of years. Desktop sales have fallen here in the united states and I think the figures pretty much speak for themselves that desktops are more likely to be a thing of the past before laptops and netbooks. As a matter of fact I just helped a neighbor with her new laptop a couple of weeks ago. She got a new H.P. laptop and wireless printer and I had to help her get her printer working. As we were working I made a comment to the effect her new laptop was really light. She replied that she use to have one of those big desktops, it was too big for her apartment, so her and her husband decided to buy a small computer so she could put it away when she wasn't using it. She likes her laptop a lot better than the big desktop. Since my apartment is small, and I don't have room for a desktop either obviously size really does matter in certain cases. More and more people like this neighbor and myself are using laptops because we don't have to deal with a tower, big monitor, external keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, etc all sitting on a desk taking up room. A laptop is very compact with the keyboard, mouse, and monitor all in one, and can be folded up and stored in a desk drawer when not being used. Like hand-helds laptops are more convenient than desktops and I believe it makes them more commercially viable for the average consumer. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 9:13 AM, dark wrote: I agree tom, prophiteering capitalist scumbags run things u
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Trouble, Well, I've already seen some touchscreen displays. They are not available for your average e-machine PCs, but if you look at some of the higher end stuff $800 to $1,000 or better you'll see things like touchscreen displays which is the next generation input device. Some of the local businesses around here have them, and it probably won't be too long before they trickle down into the household models. Especially, now that Windows 8 and Ubuntu 12's user interfaces are being designed to target touchscreen displays. On 3/13/2012 8:49 AM, Trouble wrote: As far as touch goes your right its showing more and more. Even vista has some touch screen stuff. The only hold back is monitors, not many have it but that will be changing too. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dennis, right. I think what is hard for people who are not in business, who are not programmers, etc to understand is that older products like XP are no longer making Microsoft money. They released it in 2001 and was selling it up until 2010 or so. After a certain point they sold as many copies of XP as they could, and now they have to make money by creating newer operating systems like Vista, Win 7, and Win 8. The only way to sell those newer operating systems is to add new features, make changes to the user interface, etc that are not available in prior products. What Dark and others fail to realize is simply this. How does Microsoft continue to maintain Windows XP if the operating system is no longer making them money? How do they compete with Linux and Mac OS if they never change and build new interfaces etc similar to their competition? Plus as you said even though change doesn't seem very beneficial there usually are advantages to upgrading. They might not be obvious at first, but they are there if a person looks for them. For example, one feature in Win 7 I really like is the ability to pin apps to the taskbar. I can press win+1 through win+0 to open the apps from the taskbar directly and if the app is already open, say window 1, I can press win+1 to jump immediately to that window without having to alt+tab through all the open windows. Its nice and handy and once I got use to it I find older versions of Windows like XP lacking in features I've come to expect to have. Its easy to say "I don't need this or that feature" but once a user comes to use them a lot, to rely on them being there, XP doesn't seem that fantastic in the final analysis. At least that's been my experience. Of course, I'm looking at this from the point of a convert rather than someone who is happy and satisfied with the status quo. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 5:24 PM, Dennis Towne wrote: As a programmer and developer, I understand completely why Microsoft (or any developer for that matter) would want to discontinue an older product. Maintenance is expensive and irritating. Keep in mind that if they simply try to "continue" XP (and every other product that some minority group prefers), they will lose money. If they go broke, there are no more products. How do you think MS pays for XP maintenance right now? They do it with sales of products that make money. XP doesn't make money anymore, and they couldn't make it pay for itself if they tried. I've had similar complaints come up on Alter Aeon - why don't I just make ltypes 0 and 1 optional, why don't I just make PPK optional, why don't I bring up separate servers that allow multiplaying, etc. If I tried to do even a fraction of these things, AA would never progress because I'd be spending all my time maintaining crap that doesn't actually make the game any better. All developers have to pick and choose their battles. Microsoft is no different. I know it may be irritating to have to change your ways or learn new things, but the fact of the matter is that we can't all be expecting windows 3.1 (or whatever your favorite version is) to work the same way for the next 20 years. Change happens. It may not seem like it, but usually, it actually is for the better. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, That's correct. Windows 8 now uses UI Automation which has drastically improved accessibility and has pretty much done away with the video intercept drivers we've seen on prior versions of Windows. So access is actually improving under Windows 8 not getting less accessible. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:02 PM, shaun everiss wrote: well a gwmicro win eyes csun review has win8 going to uia more meaning no drivers are required. Ofcause if ms had done this before we relied on sapi, mssa and a whole bunch of other libs for access it would be ok. It sounds like though ti will be better for everyone, however why they made us use all that junk if it was going to be put in a few years into 1 library thats the issue. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, Hard to say, but the audio games industry will probably have to change just like everything else. I can't say when, but the way hand-held devices like the iPhones and Droid phones are selling we could do well, as audio gamers, to think about targeting those devices as more and more blind users have them. Even Windows 8 is a different ball of wax for a number of reasons and I highly recommend people learn Microsoft's .NET languages because that is now the standard development platform and tools for Windows 8. However, weather audio game developers will do that or not is probably asking too much of them. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:07 PM, shaun everiss wrote: Well tom I aggree with you, except for one ms has shown they don't or won't want to put accessability in a phone. If what you say is true, then in a few years or so we will all run android os on our pcs and I look foreward to that day!! Windows touch will not be as accessable as other tablet oses like iphone or android. ANd until it is we will have to be annoyed by it not being so. Saying that, I have a friend in the education industry and it seems its going back to 34 grand braille note tablets running windows ce so maybe if it ever dropps as you say we will be carrying round several of those gismos. I wander what that will do to the existing audiogames industry. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Actually, we are very close to the full voice input and voice output type system you are talking about. For the last few Windows versions Microsoft has included speech recognition software as well as the Narrator screen reader. From what I've seen of the Windows 8 versions Narrator has become a lot better than prior versions, is more like Apple's Voiceover, and the speech recognition in Win 8 is much improved as well. I still think Dragon is better than Microsoft Speech Recognition, but for a free voice input software its pretty decent. As to your point about high definition I don't think anyone actually uses their cell phone or tablet for that kind of thing. Remember there are alternative devices for that such as 80 inch flat screen plasma displays and blue ray DVD players for watching movies and high definition video. Who needs a computer when they can have a home theater like that. Same goes for playing games. Truth is that the XBox 360, Play Station III, Wii, etc is where the major game market is right now. Yes, there are still PC games being made, but a lot of the gamers I know don't use their PC so much for games. Instead they use their XBox, connect it to a high definition flat screen TV, and on a 60 inch flat screen TV its much better than on a 20 inch monitor. Bottom line, my point is there are alternatives to the PC already. You are still thinking in terms of the PC being an all in one device, but that's changing as newer and better alternatives appear. cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:55 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: All of this might be true... But I have several questions. If mobile devices and new technologies are created and let's say touchscreens are so great, why not take it up another level and finally create a computer system like the fictional LCARS from Star Trek, where you have instant access to your data and where you have the option of full real time interactive voice control plus voice output of everything? Surely voice input and output shouldn't be desired by blind users in the world alone, it could be adapted for everyone. And the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of mobile devices in general. I was born blind and could never see, nor do I currently have a device like an IPhone... But I'd like to ask anyone who could see at some point in their life to tell me why watching some HD videos on super small mobile displays or playing complex and graphically intensive games with said small devices instead of using more stationary devices and large screens capable of handling digital HD media? I can understand why people would like to have more functions in small devices. But things like listening to music with more than two speakers like 5.1 or 7.1 audio systems or watching high resolution movies and such surely should remain on the currently needed technology instead of being ported to small devices unless you can adapt them as well to handle all this. I don't know what the processing capabilities of android phones are or what said capabilities are for other mobile devices, but I doubt that they are really better than current high tech computing equipment and the big computer networks and super computers. Surely, there is still time for such developments, but the question remains who does set such trents and can companies like Microsoft influence or stop such trents, because Microsoft is not small and should have considerable power, so it could be asked if Microsoft must adapt, or could Microsoft force others to adapt to whatever they create. Besides, why do we or companies have to follow and copy whatever someone makes before us? This discussion of user interfaces (Office 2003 vs 2007 design for example) is pointless in my opinion. I personally don't have problems with the idea of changing the design of a program. But we do we have to be forced to a design. Let's take the Office 2007 design for an example. I have read several reports and posts in various forums (sighted users) where people were not happy with the new design not because they had to learn new things, but because they did not have a choice in the matter meaning that everyone who got the new Office for whatever reason had to use the new design. But what I never got in this talk was, why Microsoft did not offer two designs? Look at Windows Media Player or Winamp. Both programs have skins which you can download or create yourself to alter and customice the interface of your program. But why don't more programs have the option for skins (surely it can't be because they want to make money, because you could theoretically sell anything you develop). So, what is the problem with the talks of designs and user feedback companies are getting and seemingly ignore here and there sometimes? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Simple. by adopting a universal interface, universal look and feel, a developer will reduce complexity and the time it takes to learn the software. The Basic principle behind the new user interfaces is that if a customer learns an interface and a developer of a different product has a similar interface the customer will be able to use the new product with very little effort. That's why there is a drive to move to the more touchscreen type user interfaces, and have a more universal look and feel between desktop software and hand-held software. In addition, to that the way we are heading the software that runs on your PC may also be the same software running on your next generation cell phone, tablet, PDA, etc. So adopting a universal user interface in advance will help customers switch back and forth from their hand-held device and their PC. For example, I recently asked someone from Ubuntu why they decided to use Unity instead of Gnome. The answer I got back is that its part of their marketing strategy. In addition to Del building desktops, laptops, and netbooks with Ubuntu preloaded on them Cononical apparently has a deal going where Ubuntu will be embedded in several hand-held devices like tablets and smart phones requiring a newer interface for touchscreens etc. All this make sense considering that if I have Ubuntu on a PC and have a smart phone, tablet, etc I'd certainly want the user interface to be the same rather than having to learn two different user interfaces for the same OS. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:59 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: And wwhere are the still existing computer or netbook and laptop users whoose hardware doesn't have touchscreen capabilities? Do they think at all? Surely, android might look nice, but what is more important, the look or the functionality? And who exactly thinks that the visual design of Android or IOS is cool? And moreover, Android and IOS devices are not exactly like a desktop computer, so why should a desktop computer have the interface of another device in the first place? Why must it all be alike? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Alright, but here is where your argument actually falls apart. If you want to talk about access on Windows 8 I can say access has actually improved. There are a number of areas where access has actually increased and not decreased in Windows, and is well worth noting. First, UI automation. In Windows 8 Microsoft has been deprecating a number of access technologies like MSAA in favor of UI Automation. Its a huge improvement over MSAA, is now a standard part of the Windows API, and any application designed with UI Automation in mind should be accessible without video intercept drivers, scripts, and any of the other crap screen readers have had to use to make prior versions of Windows applications accessible. Second, Windows Narrator has been drastically improved under Windows 8. It looks to me like Microsoft has basically copied Apple's Voiceover screen reader which is not a bad thing. Narrator is far more functional as a screen reader in Windows 8 than prior versions, and thanks to UI Automation any app using it will be accessible to Narrator out of the box. Third, MS Sapi 5.5 is an improvement over earlier versions. Windows 8 now has some new voices available and they blow away Mike, Mary, and Sam found in XP. Even Microsoft Anna which first appeared in Vista was an improvement. Fourth, Microsoft Speech Recognition. Its perhaps not as good as say Dragon Naturally Speaking, but from beta testing the new version the recognition engine is better than prior versions too. So both people with mobility and visual impairments can take advantage of voice input under Windows 8 if they want to. Finally, touchscreen technology is making huge access improvements for people with mobility impairments. All they have to do is point to the screen, and tap the icon they want a couple of times to open it up. This is often easier than using a mouse, trackball, touchpad, etc as a person can interact with Windows 8 with a single finger. Bottom line, if you want to make the case that more and more effort is required to gain equal access to Windows I don't think it really holds a lot of water. From what I've seen of Win 8 so far the opposite is true. Less effort is required because the access technology present is superior to anything else Microsoft has released to date. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 8:28 PM, dark wrote: Hi Dennis. the problem is this isn't about learning new things or preferring older systems, this is about access. As per my phd thesis, access = equal, or as close to equal as possible amounts of effort betwene groups with different biological limitations, and whatever way you cut the cookie, more and more effort is having to be expanded with the newer trends in Ui microsoft are implementing. It's rather like a building being rennivated and putting in escalators while wripping up the old ramps that paraplegics could use to enter. It is true that there is little to know prophet in access, however if we followed that line of thinking to it's ultimate conclusion, very little would be accessible. Access is an ethical matter and as such falls outside te of the basic tennits of capitalism, and this is why we can cryticise microsoft mainstream game companies etc, for following prophet only rather than access measures (indeed this is where Carl marx was exactly right in noting that the persuit of prophit is itself an amoral motivation, not an ethical one). plus I might add that "saving money" seems a pretty feeble excuse for the worlds richest coorporation which is paying most of it's manual workers in china and tyland a pittance. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. Well the upgreading part, I'll have to considder, but I think I would be very wary of upgrading simply! to upgrade, or simply because I had to, that's why i'd like some bennifits. I take your point about laptops, however I am still not convinced, for those who use desktop pcs as a general media system as indeed myself, many of my friends and my brother do, sinse that's something where you need! a larger unit that has a full sized keyboard, can connect to a really good quality monitor, set of 5.1 speakers etc. Btw, as for what I do when this laptop breaks, the answer is probably change for an Iphone, sinse while I still want windows on a desktop, there are lots of portable things I'd want an Ios device to do, and indeed several Ios things and games I'd want specifically. So I think i'd opt for either an Iphone or an Ipad rather than a laptop. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, like I've said before there isn't much use in upgrading if it doesn't offer anything new for you personally. However, I am someone who likes to be on the bleeding edge, try new things, and I've always enjoyed staying up to date when and where possible. So that's largely where I'm coming from. Although, upgrading isn't necessarily always better for everyone, and we all have different preferences. I realize that as much as the next guy. My basic point isn't that you need to upgrade, or that you shouldn't use your own preferences in upgrading. Obviously, you should do what works for you at the moment, but you should be prepared to change if and when it becomes a necessity. For example, you've got a laptop running XP, it does everything you want it to do, so don't need to upgrade right now. However, lets say you have some serious hardware failure and that laptop dies. What will you do? Will you go on Ebay and buy a used laptop just to get another XP machine, or will you go to your favorite computer store and buy a new laptop with Win 7? The point being that change is inevitable. Yeah, there may not be a pressing need to upgrade right now, and you might not have to for several years. Sooner or later you'll probably have to buy a new laptop or desktop running Windows 7, Windows 8, or later on it to replace your older hardware and software. That's basically all I'm saying. As far as your opinion that desktops will stay and laptops will be a thing of the past in favor of hand-helds I personally disagree. One reason for that is that netbooks are very popular right now. Last year more netbooks were sold than desktops, and for good reason. They are smaller, lighter, more portible and more like the hand-held devices like tablet PCs I was talking about. Plus most laptops are as good as their desktop counterparts. For example, I got a Toshiba last October. Even though this isn't a high-end model it has a full sized keyboard, 17 inch display, DVD reader/writer, a duel core 2 GHZ 64-bit processor, 3 GB of ram, a 3d graphics card, etc. Basically, its specs are similar to the average desktop available at the same time I purchased my laptop. Plus the price on laptops have come way down and aren't any more than a desktop PC. So when I look at it I'm not at all sure the average consumer is willing to go out and buy a desktop PC when a laptop can do the same thing, costs about the same, and is smaller and easier to store. As you know I often do tech support on the side and what I've been seeing is mostly laptops for the last couple of years. Desktop sales have fallen here in the united states and I think the figures pretty much speak for themselves that desktops are more likely to be a thing of the past before laptops and netbooks. As a matter of fact I just helped a neighbor with her new laptop a couple of weeks ago. She got a new H.P. laptop and wireless printer and I had to help her get her printer working. As we were working I made a comment to the effect her new laptop was really light. She replied that she use to have one of those big desktops, it was too big for her apartment, so her and her husband decided to buy a small computer so she could put it away when she wasn't using it. She likes her laptop a lot better than the big desktop. Since my apartment is small, and I don't have room for a desktop either obviously size really does matter in certain cases. More and more people like this neighbor and myself are using laptops because we don't have to deal with a tower, big monitor, external keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, etc all sitting on a desk taking up room. A laptop is very compact with the keyboard, mouse, and monitor all in one, an
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about win7. Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. We'll just have to see where it ends up and if these things actually happen or not. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Alright, but here is where your argument actually falls apart. If you want to talk about access on Windows 8 I can say access has actually improved. There are a number of areas where access has actually increased and not decreased in Windows, and is well worth noting. First, UI automation. In Windows 8 Microsoft has been deprecating a number of access technologies like MSAA in favor of UI Automation. Its a huge improvement over MSAA, is now a standard part of the Windows API, and any application designed with UI Automation in mind should be accessible without video intercept drivers, scripts, and any of the other crap screen readers have had to use to make prior versions of Windows applications accessible. Second, Windows Narrator has been drastically improved under Windows 8. It looks to me like Microsoft has basically copied Apple's Voiceover screen reader which is not a bad thing. Narrator is far more functional as a screen reader in Windows 8 than prior versions, and thanks to UI Automation any app using it will be accessible to Narrator out of the box. Third, MS Sapi 5.5 is an improvement over earlier versions. Windows 8 now has some new voices available and they blow away Mike, Mary, and Sam found in XP. Even Microsoft Anna which first appeared in Vista was an improvement. Fourth, Microsoft Speech Recognition. Its perhaps not as good as say Dragon Naturally Speaking, but from beta testing the new version the recognition engine is better than prior versions too. So both people with mobility and visual impairments can take advantage of voice input under Windows 8 if they want to. Finally, touchscreen technology is making huge access improvements for people with mobility impairments. All they have to do is point to the screen, and tap the icon they want a couple of times to open it up. This is often easier than using a mouse, trackball, touchpad, etc as a person can interact with Windows 8 with a single finger. Bottom line, if you want to make the case that more and more effort is required to gain equal access to Windows I don't think it really holds a lot of water. From what I've seen of Win 8 so far the opposite is true. Less effort is required because the access technology present is superior to anything else Microsoft has released to date. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 8:28 PM, dark wrote: Hi Dennis. the problem is this isn't about learning new things or preferring older systems, this is about access. As per my phd thesis, access = equal, or as close to equal as possible amounts of effort betwene groups with different biological limitations, and whatever way you cut the cookie, more and more effort is having to be expanded with the newer trends in Ui microsoft are implementing. It's rather like a building being rennivated and putting in escalators while wripping up the old ramps that paraplegics could use to enter. It is true that there is little to know prophet in access, however if we followed that line of thinking to it's ultimate conclusion, very little would be accessible. Access is an ethical matter and as such falls outside te of the basic tennits of capitalism, and this is why we can cryticise microsoft mainstream game companies etc, for following prophet only rather than access measures (indeed this is where Carl marx was exactly right in noting that the persuit of prophit is itself an amoral motivation, not an ethical one). plus I might add that "saving money" seems a pretty feeble excuse for the worlds richest coorporation which is paying most of it's manual workers in china and tyland a pittance. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Sure. Again, it comes down to personal preference. Sometimes the benefits to upgrading aren't always that obvious or seem all that important at the time. For example, when Windows 7 came out I really wondered myself if I should invest in the upgrade. After all, I had a Compaq that was barely two years old running Windows Vista, and for all intents and purposes Windows 7 is just an updated version of Vista. So I was thinking "what's the benefit in upgrading to Windows 7?" Well, as it turned out there were several things that convinced me to upgrade. One, was the fact that Microsoft overhalled the OS, removed a bunch of older code, and Windows 7 boots much faster than Vista. Two, Windows 7 was more stable before the service packs were released than Vista was. Three, Microsoft removed a lot of apps from the base install such as Windows Mail and made them available through Windows update. The advantage here is if I use Thunderbird I don't have Windows Mail hanging around on my drive taking up space when I don't use it. Four, Windows 7 comes preinstalled with .NET 4.0 which will handle most .NET apps out of the box without having to update or install .NET components on the side. Finally, can handle Microsoft's new UI Automation framework which will improve over all access to software as it becomes more widely used by screen readers and Windows applications. So as you can see at least in my own personal situation there were some pretty clear benefits to upgrading to Windows 7. Everyone agrees that Vista was a pretty poor version of Windows, was a bad release, and Windows 7 was designed and marketed to correct issues in Vista. However, even for an XP user yourself there probably are some benefits to you that aren't immediately obvious or that I've failed to mention because a lot has changed since XP was released. As far as hand-held devices goes I've not decided on one for myself personally. I've looked at an Apple iPad and while I don't mind the user interface I'd want to write accessible games for the unit and unfortunately Microsoft's iOS is proprietary to the max. I'd rather get a Droid phone with Ice Cream Sandwich on it so I could write games and apps for it in Java. At least Google isn't quite as anal about proprietary languages and tools as Apple. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 4:14 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. Well the upgreading part, I'll have to considder, but I think I would be very wary of upgrading simply! to upgrade, or simply because I had to, that's why i'd like some bennifits. I take your point about laptops, however I am still not convinced, for those who use desktop pcs as a general media system as indeed myself, many of my friends and my brother do, sinse that's something where you need! a larger unit that has a full sized keyboard, can connect to a really good quality monitor, set of 5.1 speakers etc. Btw, as for what I do when this laptop breaks, the answer is probably change for an Iphone, sinse while I still want windows on a desktop, there are lots of portable things I'd want an Ios device to do, and indeed several Ios things and games I'd want specifically. So I think i'd opt for either an Iphone or an Ipad rather than a laptop. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi tom. That makes sense, and if the choice was vista vs 7 i'd probably agree, however for me it's the compatibility issue that is the thing. For instance, While I've tried both windows live mail, microsoft outlook and thunderbird, nothing I thought was as good as outlook express. yes, they all came with more features, but seemed to take more navigation to access, for instance if I want a message to a contact in outlook express I just hit tab once from my inbox and bam, there is my contacts list as a dropdown. No mucking about with the address book or anything else. Does it do conferencing? multi user messages, threaded messages or the fancy stuff? no it doesn't, however when I write mail I don't particularly want any of that, I just want something that lets me read, reply, and write mails quickly and easily, and outlook express does that. Microsoft however have done their usual and in making the interface fancier for people with working eyeballs and adding billions of other functions, have overcomplicated the task of just writing, receiving and replying to E-mails. Of course, I'm fairly certain I could get used to using windows messenger or thunderbird, --- -but why should I? the new bennifits aren't things I'd use, and it'd just make what I do currently with outlook express more complex. The same goes for many other changes. It doesn't matter to me if windows 7 comes with the hooja flip new process speed 3000 upgrade of doom that makes it run 500 times faster and more securely if I can't actually play games, write mail and do the stuff I do on it. i think that's probably one of the key differences. For me, a windows is just a tool to do other stuff, I don't really care how well or badly the operating system works compared to other stuff around and on the markit, it just depends upon what it does for me personally. While from what you've described pinning to the taskbar sounds a good idea, and much of rht eannoyences with the interface can be bypassed, do I actually get to do anything new and fun with it? would it let me play more games, play music and audio brouse the net, watch films, do E-mail and write my thesis any better than I do at the second. The answer currently seems to be a distinct no, sinse most of the games that I play run equally well on windows xp, and indeed some like older 16 bit applications won't run on 7 at all without a virtual machine (though as I said apparently this is changing with windows 8). Word 2007 is actually easier to use than the upgraded versions, and winamp still works fine. About the only thing that would! make a difference is full 5.1 speaker support, and while I freely admit this would be a good thing, I don't know if it outways all the bad stuff as yet. Of course, this situation may change in the future. When lots of games come out that I can't run on xp, when a better mail client is available, perhaps when windows 8 actually has the 16 bit compatibility that will let me run fallthru, eamon etc, then is the point I'll considder upgrading. As for Ios, well sinse I haven't got into game developement yet, that's not as much a concern, and where as there aren't! many games that require windows 7, there is a lot of interesting stuff available for Ios that I haven't been able to play. I wouldn't want to go Ios totally, sinse there would be too many other things I couldn't do, my thesis for instance has to be written in ms word format sinse that's what the philosophy department use, but as long as I had a windows desktop, this wouldn't be an issue. I suppose this is ultimately a difference in thinking of computers. For me, a computer just takes the place of a lot of other devices, such as a games console (though I do still own my Snes and gamecube, I don't get new games on either), music system, typewriter and dvd player, and I'd only considder a computer to be good or bad relative to those functions, rather than having any intrinsic value in itself. Btw, a very amusing take on this are the new cybermen in Doctor who. Rather than the old cybermen being people who replaced first their bodies, then their brains with cybernetics for survival, now they are billed as human brains in steel boddies, created as "the next upgrade, human 2.0, with bugs removed and far greater useability" (to quote the actual episode rise of the cybermen). Indeed it was one of the producers stated aimes that the cybermen were almost a play off many people's desire to have the latest and best upgrade, as much as the function they filled in the old series of survival instinct gone mad. This is again why i like Dr. who, when it's done well it manages to make us take a look at ourselves in a really strange and twisted way. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make chang
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
What I never got was the reason why screen readers had to use all the stuff like video intercept and got so little result in using it. If I can clone my graphics card virtually and the screen reader is controlling the clone, then why does a screen reader need external OCR to handle letters? Moreover, if I have access to the entire screen and all graphic information, shouldn't i (the program) be capable of reading nearly anything except for moving and continously morphing pictures out of the box, so that MS or others thechnically wouldn't need to create a second voiceOver for Windows? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
hi Michael. As to why wii, ps3 online etc don't have access to their os, it's the same reason as nintendo, capcom, square, blizard etc don't make accessible games, the almighty prophet margin. While governments and institutions will buy pcs and screen readers for Vi users, thus creating at least some degree of prophet in access for those groups, the same is not true of consoles, and companies like nintendo aren't interested in minorities or indeed ethics. What may happen in the future when the generation who grew up in the 1970's playing atari games start to hit their 50's and lose their vision could be another story though. As to why more software isn't cross platform, well once again it's developement environment and cash. Direct x for instance is windows only, and a developer would need to pretty much redesign a direct x application from scratch to have it work on mac or lynux. Though cross platform libraries exist, they're not usually as good as the ones for the native system. Then of course is apple's less than fair practice of making developers pay! for the privelidge of writing softwware for their os, --- -a practice which deffinately discourages cross compatibility, sinse why should a developer pay! to work on mac, when they can do the same on lynux and/or windows for free. This really isn't a good practice and though it earns apple some money now probably won't encourage people to write for the system in the future. I'm not sure about the differences betwene mobile Ios and Mac, though I assume there are some major ones, indeed I don't know if you need separate dev licences for each system (it wouldn't indeed surprise me if you did given some of apples other less than generous decisions), but I'm not sure on that one. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Michael Gauler" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, I am not familiar with MAC OS or IOS. But what I last heard was that you need to run MAC OS to compile IOS apps. I am not sure if that's still the case, but that was what I last heard. And the question about operating system access is not only about blind users. Somewhere I once read that you could install and run a linux distribution on the Play Station 3, but this feature was removed and without serious hacking, you can't do it right now. Yes, you are probably right that the PS3 doesn't have DirectX. But since I am not a developer of console games, I do not know if the PS3 has their own "directX" or at least something like it. So, we don't know what you would officially require to develop console games appart from licenses of course. And what about the xbox 360? It is a device developed by Microsoft, but because I don't have it, I can't know how games are developed and what files they do use. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Yes, to develop games and apps for iOS devices you need a Mac with XCode and the iOS SDK. That's why its so hard to develop for iOS because its closed to non-Apple users and developers. As far as the PS 3 its actually built using a modified Linux distribution. Thit uses a Linux kernel, but the user interface is customized and the graphics, audio, and input libraries are proprietary to the unit. It doesn't use DirectX, but Sony's own multimedia API. As far as the XBox it uses a version of DirectX which is similar to the version that ships with Vista and Win 7. On 3/14/12, Michael Gauler wrote: > Hi Dark, > I am not familiar with MAC OS or IOS. > But what I last heard was that you need to run MAC OS to compile IOS apps. > I am not sure if that's still the case, but that was what I last heard. > And the question about operating system access is not only about blind > users. > Somewhere I once read that you could install and run a linux distribution on > the Play Station 3, but this feature was removed and without serious > hacking, you can't do it right now. > Yes, you are probably right that the PS3 doesn't have DirectX. > But since I am not a developer of console games, I do not know if the PS3 > has their own "directX" or at least something like it. > So, we don't know what you would officially require to develop console games > appart from licenses of course. > And what about the xbox 360? It is a device developed by Microsoft, but > because I don't have it, I can't know how games are developed and what files > they do use. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Smile. Well, that's true enough. We do come at this entire issue from different perspectives,and makes sense when we look at the reasons why or how we use our computers. You tend to look at this situation strictly as a consumer, an end user, who only cares about playing his movies, writing your thesis, playing music, and some audio games. Which is perfectly valid since XP fulfills all of those needs for you, and as you pointed out Windows 7 won't bring anything really new to the table. So there isn't a pressing need to upgrade at this point. Believe it or not I do understand where you are coming from because even though I have Windows 7 for business purposes my personal OS of choice is Linux. The main reason is because I have Firefox for browsing the web, Thunderbird for handling e-mail, Pigeon for chatting on AIM and MSN, Totem for playing DVD movies, Rythmbox for playing my mp3s, Libre Office for word/Excel documents, etc. In other words other than a lack of audio games Linux provides all the necessities I need, and costs less for me to own and use. As a result if I were to compare Linux to Windows it offers me more benefits in the long run as an end user and software consumer. However, how I look at this issue of Windows 7 vs XP is from a software developer and business point of view. If I am going to remain in the technical support and software development field I absolutely must own and use the latest OS so I can serve my clients. As a result I tend to remain fairly up to date with software releases, do market research on what's coming in the future, and prepare for it in advance. Which means I'm always looking at technology from the long view rather than the short view. To give you an example since I know Windows 8 is supposed to be released later this year it only makes sense as a developer to find out what has changed, what I can do to make my software Windows 8 ready, so if someone runs out and buys it the day after release I know that my products are ready to run on the new OS. Unfortunately, as a developer sometimes preparing for a new OS or new technology breaks compatibility with older operating systems in existence. If I write a piece of software in VB 2010 using .NET 4.0 it will run on XP, Vista, Windows 7, and run on Windows 8 which comes with .NET 5.0. However, it won't work with Windows 98, Millennium, or 2000. As a developer it would require a major downgrade to .NET 1.1 in order to target those platforms which is one reason why software developers can't continue to support older software forever. Plus how much of a market is there for Windows 98/2000 software anyway? So in short while you are looking at this in terms of what can you do on Windows 7 you can't do on XP I'm looking at how many people are likely to buy new computers, upgrade to the latest technology, and tend to think strictly in terms of a developer or tech support specialist. That's why I tend to stay on top of technology.At least as far as Windows goes. With Linux I'm more like you preferring to stick with a long term support release simply because I don't want to grab the latest version every six months and don't mind using a version for two or three years unless there is something new such as KDE 4.8 which now has screen reader support and is going to be available for Ubuntu 12. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 7:06 AM, dark wrote: Hi tom. That makes sense, and if the choice was vista vs 7 i'd probably agree, however for me it's the compatibility issue that is the thing. For instance, While I've tried both windows live mail, microsoft outlook and thunderbird, nothing I thought was as good as outlook express. yes, they all came with more features, but seemed to take more navigation to access, for instance if I want a message to a contact in outlook express I just hit tab once from my inbox and bam, there is my contacts list as a dropdown. No mucking about with the address book or anything else. Does it do conferencing? multi user messages, threaded messages or the fancy stuff? no it doesn't, however when I write mail I don't particularly want any of that, I just want something that lets me read, reply, and write mails quickly and easily, and outlook express does that. Microsoft however have done their usual and in making the interface fancier for people with working eyeballs and adding billions of other functions, have overcomplicated the task of just writing, receiving and replying to E-mails. Of course, I'm fairly certain I could get used to using windows messenger or thunderbird, --- -but why should I? the new bennifits aren't things I'd use, and it'd just make what I do currently with outlook express more complex. The same goes for many other changes. It doesn't matter to me if windows 7 comes with the hooja flip new process speed 3000 upgrade of doom that makes it run 500 times faster and more securely if I can
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
well it looks at least from the gwmicro win8 podcast that ms is intigrating all this internally for screen readers which in my view should have done already!! Msaa was ok but it only did ms spaciffic controls as far as I understand it. Sapi was speech, intercepters were needed so the readers could get data from the graphics card, text and other junk piped to them, though I don't know the full story. The mirror driver was to make that so it didn't mangle things when chains were broken. Ms is doing the right thing by intigrating this into the os. However, after getting reader manufacturers to use and or make multipul libraries, its just a stupid waste of time. Now we need to fix things so we can get access to the system, that should have been there in the first place. It will probably be easier to fix being only 1 set of libs now, but because we worked with several we have to port which is a real nucence. At 02:55 p.m. 14/03/2012 +0100, you wrote: What I never got was the reason why screen readers had to use all the stuff like video intercept and got so little result in using it. If I can clone my graphics card virtually and the screen reader is controlling the clone, then why does a screen reader need external OCR to handle letters? Moreover, if I have access to the entire screen and all graphic information, shouldn't i (the program) be capable of reading nearly anything except for moving and continously morphing pictures out of the box, so that MS or others thechnically wouldn't need to create a second voiceOver for Windows? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I think there will always be a space for a desk computer, or at least a computer on a desk, or a portable laptop type of system with full keyboard of some description. Maybe the desktop will be on the wall and most of our stuff will be touch or voice like startrek but even in startrek they had desktop terminals of some description. So the concept of the desktop won't go away. It may look different. What gets me is why we didn't move to touch earlier. I mean shape drawing will be really good especially if we have feadback. Ofcause all blind will have to buy apple or android to be real successfull with the new market. Ms changes to much to be relyable. Not that I will move any time soon having spent to much cash on games, and other junk, but if i started again, I'd get a chunky expensive braille device and maybe skip to apple solely. Maybe emulate windows on a vm but sertainly I wouldn't have windows as a prime os. I can't afford to move now though. At 02:49 p.m. 14/03/2012 +0100, you wrote: If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Its really quite simple. Attempting to support more than one platform or technology requires lots of time, money, and isn't easy to do. Even though languages and technologies such as Java and Python have been developed to help aid in cross-platform development there is no one size fits all solution because there are just too many differences to make cross-platform development practical. For example, for quite a while now I've been looking into targeting Mac and Linux as well as Windows. Unfortunately, there are no common APIs exactly like DirectX. There is SDL, SFML, OpenAL, etc which are certainly cross-platform and could theoretically be used instead of DirectX. However, the downside is that most cross-platform solutions lack features found in a commercial API like DirectX and the game will suffer because of it. Here is a case in point. Let's assume I decided to write USA Raceway in C++, use SDL, andmake it cross-platform. Thanks to SDL and OpenAL I could port the game to Mac, Linux, and Windows, but there are some features you wouldn't get in the process. One disadvantage would be support for some gaming devices. SDL 1.2.13 does not support special devices like force feedback racing wheels. As a result a feature I could have with a game using DirectX wouldn't be possible using a cross-platform API like SDL. Another reason some games aren't ported to more than one platform is simply cost. In order to write games for gaming consoles like the Play Station, Wii, XBox, etc a company has to pay royalty fees for the use of the console as well as pay for proprietary development kits. This obviously gets expensive and not everyone, including mainstream game companies, can afford to do this for each and every game they develop. Finally, there is the issue of proprietary technologies that are simply incompatible with everything else. Apple is bad about this, because most of the software for Mac OS and iOS is written in a proprietary language called Object C. So if you write a game for an iOS device in Object C you can't just take the source and recompile it for Android. No, a developer has to completely rewrite the app from scratch which just isn't worth it. As to why the XBox or Play Station doesn't have a screen reader built in I think you already know the answer to that question. Its not financially in the companies interests to do it. Same could be said for microwaves, DVD players, and probably a thousand other things we own and use on a daily basis. We are too small a market to interest companies in improving accessibility of their products, and companies aren't in the habit of doing things like that for cherity. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 9:49 AM, Michael Gauler wrote: If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Ok, let's think about this the other way around: Then if it is not in the companies interest to make DVD players or other devices accessible due to financial reasons, why does Windows have Narrator and Mac got VoiceOver included into the operating systems? If it is (theoretically) not a good idea because you won't make money with it? And while we are talking about market size. There are somewhere over six billion people on earth. How many of them are blind or or have other impairments? I only hear that our community is small but what is the actual size and do such statements about a small market include the world outside of the USA? I am not sure here, but most audio game developers are situated in the USA, correct? But no one seems to be asking if there are people outside of that region of the world, at least that's the way I see it. I am from Germany and regardless of how many developers my country has, even here are some people who have bought some audio games or have played the free ones. I have the unregistered version of BGT to play several free games created with it. I was there from the time of TopSpeed 1.1A up to the latest version of it. I also was there when the Alchemy version of Montezuma's revenge was first released. The point is, that we have an unknown number of people scattered around the world. And about speech technology and accessibility: If making devices accessible is not profitable, why does every major company developing TTS voices state that their products are used for embedded devices, automotive applications, phone call centers or for automatic teller machines? I went back to the town where I was born a few weeks ago. I found out that announcements of bus stops for public transport was changed to a German TTS voice instead of using the voices of several radio moderators and voice actors. Said TTS voice can be found in the program called Voice Reader. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. this makes perfect sense, and indeed is also the reason why I have never investigated mac or lynux in further detail, simply because, while I know there are probably technical advantages to either os, those advantages don't matter a bit to me if they won't help me do what I do, part of which obviously includes a great many games. it's like the betamax vhs debate. Betamax was actually a more efficient tape system, less worn out, and technically clearer, however sinse fewer video companies secured betamax contracts, the system went down rapidly, however technically good it was. This is indeed another problem of competative capitalism, that the most prophitable and universal solution is the one that wins, not necessarily the best, but until there is another regulating standard on which to judge these things there's not a lot we can do. Less politically though, another point I've noticed is that many people who work routinely with computers have an intrinsic liking for the subject in themselves. For instance, a close friend of mine is a professional programm designer. When discussing his job, he stated that he gained satisfaction through the process of being given a task to write a program to fulfill and then going off and creatively writing one, irrispective of what that task was. For instance, he recently had to write a program to log and regulate all the pay slips and online reciets issued by a company, and track these to the employees taxes. To me, i can imagine nothing quite so dull, but for my friend, the fact that he! got to design the program to work with this information, calculate the numbers involve and display it securely and relevantly was the important thing, ie, it was the process he enjoyed. The same goes with game design. if (as I hope), in september of this year I write that text rpg I've always wanted to, for me the fun process will be the actual writing and designing and the fact that I'm creating a world and story for people to interact with. The programming will just bhe the process of making that thing happen, and as such I'll look around for a programming method that is easiest for me to use in doing that, rather than worry about a hole lot of programming concerns, such as for instance cross platform compatibility. yes, I want people to be able to play it, but sinse the process of writing the world and story is to me more interesting, I'd rather spend my time on creating something good in windows, than learning a lot of what is to me comparatively less interesting stuff to create something to run on mac or lynux. Of course, if the option I choose is something like Python (which seems likely given how easy python code looks to understand), it might come with cross compatibility anyway, but if not, I'm not going to worry about it. Selfish? just slightly, though I could also make a reasonable arguement that I'm simply focusing on the things I know! I can do, namely write convincing and interesting pros and come up with some balanced game mechanics, rather than the things I probably cannot such as memory management, worry about libraries, garbage checking and all the other weerd alchemical stuff that programmers need to do. in fact if I could just write in near to plane english I'd gladly do that, even if someone had to download something in order to play it. indeed I might just skip the programming altogether and carry on writing gamebooks with darkgrue, though inf airness there are matters of random description and combat rules that would need a little dice work behind the scenes which darkgrue couldn't handle, and the system I had in mind for a text rpg was rather more complex than just a basic gamebook. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Certainly I think UI Automation, the improved Sapi voices, improved speech recognition in the Windows 8 consumor beta are good things However, the new user interface is so radically different from XP, Vista, Windows 7, etc that a lot of blind Windows users, especially those who like XP, are going to absolutely hate Windows 8 because of the new interface even though Microsoft is working hard to provide equal access to the OS and its pretty accessible out of the box already. For example, the start menu as you know it is totally gone. Instead when you log into Windows 8 you land on a start menu with program groupes tiled in columns across the screen. This is perfectly fine for a mouse user who can point to the program group and click on it, but if you have to figure out what row and column a program is in it can be a bit of a pain access wise as there is no list view or tree view structure as in prior versions of Windows. When looking at files folders, etc in explorer they are also tiled the same way and its going to take blind users a while to get use to looking for things since they are arranged in a table like view rather than a vertical list. Plus a lot of things in Windows 8 just don't work the way they did in Win 7 and earlier. In XP if you press the context key you get a vertical list of menu options like Open, Save, Print, etc. Under Windows 8 if you press the context key you get a context screen with options tiled from left to right. Instead of using up and down arrow you have to scroll left and right with the left and right arrow keys. The first time I saw that it threw me for a loop, because I wasn't expecting things to change so radically. Finally, ribbons are a standard part of the Windows interface, and despite talk of Microsoft removing them I sincerely doubt it. Almost all the programs in Windows 8 have ribbons instead of menus. Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, Wordpad, Windows Mail, Windows Media player, you name it all have ribbons. If you hate ribbons then you aren't going to like Windows 8 at all from a user interface perspective. However, that said if you are interested in an overview of what's changed I highly recommend you listen to a demonstration done by GW Micro http://www.gwmicro.com at this years convention. I think it will give you and everyone an idea of what Windows 8 has in store for us both good and bad. The link to the podcast is right on the main page. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 4:20 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about win7. Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. We'll just have to see where it ends up and if these things actually happen or not. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi michael. firstly some stats and corrections. for your information while Usa games, gma, bsc, draconis, blind adrenalin and 7-128 are located in the usa, blastbay is based in sweedan, as was the old terraformers project, Vip gameszone is based in israil, audiogames.net is run from the netherlands, pontes games is run from romania, X site is run online but damien himself is in the Uk, Zero site is based in Italy, the old light tech interactive was a collaboration betwene one hungarian, one Iranian and one I believe czech developer, Nielsbauer who make smugglers are based in Germany, the recent Bari bari baseball and football games are bmade by a company in Japan, as is the developer of laser breakout, world of war, bockerano debuken etc. So while it is true there are many game developers in the Us, it's not true that most are based there, indeed neither are most of the audio games community (I'm english myself)l. As to percentages of population, at last count 2.6 percent of the total world population had low vision, and 0.6 percent are blind. However, of that 0.6 percent, only perhaps a fifth, so 0.13 percent will be under the age of 50, with most being 75 or older. this isn't to say older eople don't use electronics, but certainly most don't, in fact at a rough guess, I'd say that even in a modern country perhaps only 0.01 percent of the population will use computers or electronic devices, and of those not all will be gamers. When your dealing with big corporations who wreckon selling to at least ten percent of the total population if not more, then 0.01 percent doesn't cut the mustard unfortunately. Voices on bank machines, busses etc are also there to serve the percentage of the blind population who don't! use electronics, In fact would I'd say bennifit nearly all of that 0.06 percent, plus of course sighted members of the population who don't pay attention. As to why pcs and not games consoles etc, the answer is simple. Most blind people of working age or close to it (which actually means very few as I've said above), in modern countries are bought pcs by governmental institutions or charatieis for work. This is how companies like Freedom scientific, Dolphin and the people who make other screen readers make their money, by selling to institutions, also why the price of access tech is high, sinse while individuals can't usually afford it, institutions might be able to, and thus compensate for the comparatively few sales they'll get. Unfortunately, these are stats that can't be argued with, and being as most things in the world currently, especially to do with technology, are dictated by the almighty prophet margin there's not a lot that can be done. indeed, blind gamers are in a far worse position than other disabled groups, simply because most blind people are not of an age to play computer games, where as say motion impared gamers are of all ages. unfortunately, these are the facts and the numbers, and we're not in a world currenty where small numbers make a difference. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi tom. that all sounds pretty dire, I especially ahte the sound of the columnized views, but we'll see. Once again though this is the trend of having information all on screen rather than accessible through separate areas. i hope myself there will be the opportunity to put it into lists or some other change to stop it looking as stupid, and whoever thought of ribbons needs hanging on the end of one and punching for several days Imho. yes, I am biased I freely admit, but ribbons just annoy me, sinse they are so damn illogical. hopefully though sinse windows 7's lack of customizability in the interface was a major turn off microsoft will actually listen on this one and offer some alternatives, but we'll have to see. Otherwise I might be heading off to find bill gates with a very big hammer, though I suspect I'll have to wait in the kew, sinse I imagine lots of people are looking for bill gates with very big hammers :d. "hay bill, like windows? maybe your head needs a new context window opening! let me pin this to your task bar!" :d. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Certainly I think UI Automation, the improved Sapi voices, improved speech recognition in the Windows 8 consumor beta are good things However, the new user interface is so radically different from XP, Vista, Windows 7, etc that a lot of blind Windows users, especially those who like XP, are going to absolutely hate Windows 8 because of the new interface even though Microsoft is working hard to provide equal access to the OS and its pretty accessible out of the box already. For example, the start menu as you know it is totally gone. Instead when you log into Windows 8 you land on a start menu with program groupes tiled in columns across the screen. This is perfectly fine for a mouse user who can point to the program group and click on it, but if you have to figure out what row and column a program is in it can be a bit of a pain access wise as there is no list view or tree view structure as in prior versions of Windows. When looking at files folders, etc in explorer they are also tiled the same way and its going to take blind users a while to get use to looking for things since they are arranged in a table like view rather than a vertical list. Plus a lot of things in Windows 8 just don't work the way they did in Win 7 and earlier. In XP if you press the context key you get a vertical list of menu options like Open, Save, Print, etc. Under Windows 8 if you press the context key you get a context screen with options tiled from left to right. Instead of using up and down arrow you have to scroll left and right with the left and right arrow keys. The first time I saw that it threw me for a loop, because I wasn't expecting things to change so radically. Finally, ribbons are a standard part of the Windows interface, and despite talk of Microsoft removing them I sincerely doubt it. Almost all the programs in Windows 8 have ribbons instead of menus. Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, Wordpad, Windows Mail, Windows Media player, you name it all have ribbons. If you hate ribbons then you aren't going to like Windows 8 at all from a user interface perspective. However, that said if you are interested in an overview of what's changed I highly recommend you listen to a demonstration done by GW Micro http://www.gwmicro.com at this years convention. I think it will give you and everyone an idea of what Windows 8 has in store for us both good and bad. The link to the podcast is right on the main page. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 4:20 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about win7. Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. We'll just have to see where it ends up and if these things actually happen or not. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org I
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I agree with you, dark. Always wanted to make him pay for the crimes against accessibility! Lol. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 15 March 2012 00:16 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi tom. that all sounds pretty dire, I especially ahte the sound of the columnized views, but we'll see. Once again though this is the trend of having information all on screen rather than accessible through separate areas. i hope myself there will be the opportunity to put it into lists or some other change to stop it looking as stupid, and whoever thought of ribbons needs hanging on the end of one and punching for several days Imho. yes, I am biased I freely admit, but ribbons just annoy me, sinse they are so damn illogical. hopefully though sinse windows 7's lack of customizability in the interface was a major turn off microsoft will actually listen on this one and offer some alternatives, but we'll have to see. Otherwise I might be heading off to find bill gates with a very big hammer, though I suspect I'll have to wait in the kew, sinse I imagine lots of people are looking for bill gates with very big hammers :d. "hay bill, like windows? maybe your head needs a new context window opening! let me pin this to your task bar!" :d. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly > > Hi Dark, > > Well, yes and no. Certainly I think UI Automation, the improved Sapi > voices, improved speech recognition in the Windows 8 consumor beta are > good things However, the new user interface is so radically different from > XP, Vista, Windows 7, etc that a lot of blind Windows users, especially > those who like XP, are going to absolutely hate Windows 8 because of the > new interface even though Microsoft is working hard to provide equal > access to the OS and its pretty accessible out of the box already. > > For example, the start menu as you know it is totally gone. Instead when > you log into Windows 8 you land on a start menu with program groupes tiled > in columns across the screen. This is perfectly fine for a mouse user who > can point to the program group and click on it, but if you have to figure > out what row and column a program is in it can be a bit of a pain access > wise as there is no list view or tree view structure as in prior versions > of Windows. When looking at files folders, etc in explorer they are also > tiled the same way and its going to take blind users a while to get use to > looking for things since they are arranged in a table like view rather > than a vertical list. > > Plus a lot of things in Windows 8 just don't work the way they did in Win > 7 and earlier. In XP if you press the context key you get a vertical list > of menu options like Open, Save, Print, etc. Under Windows 8 if you press > the context key you get a context screen with options tiled from left to > right. Instead of using up and down arrow you have to scroll left and > right with the left and right arrow keys. The first time I saw that it > threw me for a loop, because I wasn't expecting things to change so > radically. > > Finally, ribbons are a standard part of the Windows interface, and despite > talk of Microsoft removing them I sincerely doubt it. Almost all the > programs in Windows 8 have ribbons instead of menus. Windows Explorer, > Internet Explorer, Wordpad, Windows Mail, Windows Media player, you name > it all have ribbons. If you hate ribbons then you aren't going to like > Windows 8 at all from a user interface perspective. > > However, that said if you are interested in an overview of what's changed > I highly recommend you listen to a demonstration done by GW Micro > http://www.gwmicro.com > at this years convention. I think it will give you and everyone an idea of > what Windows 8 has in store for us both good and bad. The link to the > podcast is right on the main page. > > Cheers! > > On 3/14/2012 4:20 AM, dark wrote: >> Hi Tom. >> >> it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what >> they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about >> win7. >> >> Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they >> appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature >> more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that >> I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. >> >> We'll just have to see where it ends up and if th
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, Well, I agree that something like UI Automation is way over do, but it doesn't do any good to spend time on should've, could've, or would'ive because the fact of the matter is the technology is here now and we should be glad its coming. Plus you must remember that these are different times, new laws, etc have came into effect since all that old stuff was created. For example, MSAA was first introduced for Windows 95 in the mid 90's and became a standard feature of Windows 98. From what I've seen in programming accessibility was primarily bolted on to the OS as an after thought and screen reader developers had to come up with mirror drivers, scripts, etc to make up for the lack of accessibility in applications. However, in 2001 the ADA was amended with section 508 which makes it mandatory that all software purchased by and used by the U.S. government must be accessible to people with physical disabilities. That law pretty much got the software industry moving on access and why Apple, Microsoft, and Linux developers have been devoting more and more time to improving the accessibility of their operating systems. Even operating systems such as FreeBSD are reasonably accessible with the Gnome desktop and Orca which wasn't the case up until a few years ago. Bottom line, asking why Microsoft did or didn't do this or that earlier is a waist of time. I think the simplest answer is they were not interested in developing a better solution until Section 508 made it mandatory that they do so in order to have their software used by the U.S. government. Plus Microsoft is the leader in software for the PC, and it would be rather ironic if they fell behind Apple or an upstart like Linux in terms of accessibility, because both Apple's Cocoa and Linux's at-spi technology centralize accessibility through a single API which is what Microsoft is attempting to do now as well. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 5:46 PM, shaun everiss wrote: well it looks at least from the gwmicro win8 podcast that ms is intigrating all this internally for screen readers which in my view should have done already!! Msaa was ok but it only did ms spaciffic controls as far as I understand it. Sapi was speech, intercepters were needed so the readers could get data from the graphics card, text and other junk piped to them, though I don't know the full story. The mirror driver was to make that so it didn't mangle things when chains were broken. Ms is doing the right thing by intigrating this into the os. However, after getting reader manufacturers to use and or make multipul libraries, its just a stupid waste of time. Now we need to fix things so we can get access to the system, that should have been there in the first place. It will probably be easier to fix being only 1 set of libs now, but because we worked with several we have to port which is a real nucence. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Thomas, I have a question. I also read a test report for the latest version of Windows 8. It was made by a sighted user and he called the new desktop and start menu "Metro". Windows 8 apparently has two versions of Internet Explorer and Metro has its own app store like Apple has. But I also read that the classic desktop (whatever is left of it) can be launched as another app. Two versions of IE are present, one included in Metro and another stand alone version like IE 8 or IE 9 currently are. They do not share data with each other like settings, session data, chache and other data. Now I'd like to know a few accessibility things. Are we talking about build in screen reader support for Metro, or the classic desktop? And what exactly is the new SAPI version and what kind of voices might come with it? And is this somehow related to the separately released Microsoft Speech Platform (or whatever its correct name is)? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Well, one of the major reasons why Windows comes with Narrator, Mac OS with Voiceover, and Linux with Orca has to do with Section 508. In 2001 the U.S. American Disabilities Act, ADA, was amended so that all software purchased by or used by the U.S. government had to meet certain accessibility standards. Soon after George Bush Jr. signed Section 508 into law several small to large software companies began developing access technologies in order to meet Section 508 compliance. Although, Windows was the closest to meeting the requirements Microsoft began expanding the number of applications for Windows that would aid in accessibility. Out of that came Narrator, Microsoft Speech Recognition, and Microsoft Magnifier. Certainly Zoomtext, Jaws, or Dragon were far more advanced than what Microsoft was offering, but they had to include those features to the OS to meet Section 508 compliance. Apple quickly followed suit with their own Section 508 program. They hired developers who worked on screen readers to build Voiceover, and completely updated Cocoa so that new apps using Cocoa would automatically be accessible out of the box. Even better by Mac OS 10.4 you could even install the entire OS from start to finish using Voiceover which is still something you can't do with Windows, but because Apple took a different approach to accessibility, by centralizing it, Apple's accessibility has quickly caught up with Windows and even passed it in certain areas. Besides the top two companies smaller companies like Sun got into the act as well. Sun hired a company from Germany to create a cross-platform screen reader for Solaris, Linux, and FreeBSD called /Gnopernicus. In addition they paid developers to write a totally new accessibility framework for Gnome which continues to this day. After a couple of years Gnopernicus was dropped in favor of a newer screen reader written in Python called Orca, and more and more open source developers have consistently attempted to spend time on making their apps Section 508 compliant for Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris. For example, KDE, which is another GUI for Linux, has been working on accessibility for the last couple of years. Right now they have created an API called qt-at-spi which acts as a bridge between any Qt application for KDE and at-spi, which in turn passes the information to Orca. All of this effort is do to Section 508 which passed 11 years ago, and has been driving accessibility of software ever since. As far as TTS goes that's a separate issue. There are several non-accessibility related applications for TTS voices that has nothing to do with Section 508, screen readers, or the uses we tend to use them for. For example, Nextup has a couple of apps for Windows such as News Aloud and Weather Aloud. The former reads the current news and the other speaks the current weather. While they are accessible to us they were not created or marketed for the blind community but for business men who want to just listen to the news or weather without having to sit down and read it. Speech output can be just as helpful to them as us in cases like that. Another use of TTS is telephone applications. If a person calls into an automatic billing department they might be greeted by a program using a Sapi voice that tells them to press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish. Then, ask him/her for their billing number. It reads the current billing number and asks if it is correct etc. It might then ask him/her if they want to make a payment and so on. Basically, this is a technology that has evolved independent of us and just because you hear a TTS voice at your local teller machine doesn't always mean its there because of us. Its often being driven by mainstream marketing trends. Which brings me to my final point. While there are definitely six billion people in the world and its expected to double over the next century the fact of the matter is blindness is less than one percent of the population. Then, when you divide that one percent up into groups like the elderly who often live in assisted living conditions to begin with and young men and women in our age range we end up with a very very small group who use computers, smart phones, DVD players, etc. When you face the facts you and I are are in a very small group who don't have the kind of numbers to make it financially viable for certain products to be made accessible. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 7:30 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: Ok, let's think about this the other way around: Then if it is not in the companies interest to make DVD players or other devices accessible due to financial reasons, why does Windows have Narrator and Mac got VoiceOver included into the operating systems? If it is (theoretically) not a good idea because you won't make money with it? And while we are talking about market size. There are somewhere over six billion people on earth. How many o
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I aggree tom. On that note and before this topic gets old as it will do sooner or later, and going completely off topic for a second, I have a rather largeish concern with the metro system. gwmicro was doing a podcast on windoweyes on win8 and it looked like one of the most unwieldy interfaces in existance. Sure its ok for the general public, but for us its really just a pain in the guts. I can't see anything good coming of this. I know its still a consumer preview, but still the new system is quite scary and complex. While I did a search on how one would turn it off I found a blog post/ ms forum. about 3 people liked it but the rest didn't. If ms is making a bad choice, win8 could become another vista. All the updates don't mean much for us. I am only just getting to like 7 and now I hear support drops for it in 2015 of all things with end of life at 2020. Aparently every os after this one will be metroised, which probably means windows9 will be better being the second adition, ribbons I can live with. Upgrading the programs I can live with, but all this metro stuff. I have heard descussions on how touchpads get in the way of users on here. I have had to do tablet boxes, and had to resort to an external board as the pads just got in the way. If we can actually use the pads like the iphone or android devices I wouldn't mind, however, I just hope classic shell or something comes out to put the old way in for us at least. At 06:30 a.m. 15/03/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Well, I agree that something like UI Automation is way over do, but it doesn't do any good to spend time on should've, could've, or would'ive because the fact of the matter is the technology is here now and we should be glad its coming. Plus you must remember that these are different times, new laws, etc have came into effect since all that old stuff was created. For example, MSAA was first introduced for Windows 95 in the mid 90's and became a standard feature of Windows 98. From what I've seen in programming accessibility was primarily bolted on to the OS as an after thought and screen reader developers had to come up with mirror drivers, scripts, etc to make up for the lack of accessibility in applications. However, in 2001 the ADA was amended with section 508 which makes it mandatory that all software purchased by and used by the U.S. government must be accessible to people with physical disabilities. That law pretty much got the software industry moving on access and why Apple, Microsoft, and Linux developers have been devoting more and more time to improving the accessibility of their operating systems. Even operating systems such as FreeBSD are reasonably accessible with the Gnome desktop and Orca which wasn't the case up until a few years ago. Bottom line, asking why Microsoft did or didn't do this or that earlier is a waist of time. I think the simplest answer is they were not interested in developing a better solution until Section 508 made it mandatory that they do so in order to have their software used by the U.S. government. Plus Microsoft is the leader in software for the PC, and it would be rather ironic if they fell behind Apple or an upstart like Linux in terms of accessibility, because both Apple's Cocoa and Linux's at-spi technology centralize accessibility through a single API which is what Microsoft is attempting to do now as well. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 5:46 PM, shaun everiss wrote: well it looks at least from the gwmicro win8 podcast that ms is intigrating all this internally for screen readers which in my view should have done already!! Msaa was ok but it only did ms spaciffic controls as far as I understand it. Sapi was speech, intercepters were needed so the readers could get data from the graphics card, text and other junk piped to them, though I don't know the full story. The mirror driver was to make that so it didn't mangle things when chains were broken. Ms is doing the right thing by intigrating this into the os. However, after getting reader manufacturers to use and or make multipul libraries, its just a stupid waste of time. Now we need to fix things so we can get access to the system, that should have been there in the first place. It will probably be easier to fix being only 1 set of libs now, but because we worked with several we have to port which is a real nucence. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-m
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. Interesting about section 5.08. As I've said before disabled access is always something I think the us government, along with other countries like Scandinavia and the netherlands does far better than the Uk, sinse I've found nothing about software access in any of the British acts of parliament that deal with disability such as the disability discrimination act. Indeed my mum has to have a reader provided by the health service sinse the system they employ, despite being a department of the British government is completely inaccessible to screen readers (it was assessed by several experts and judged as such). While provision exists for agencies to perchice equipment for disabled students, this is pretty much farmed out to councels and thus what any given student gets, how willing a local councel is to help with education etc can very much vary from county to county. I will say as well though, this makes me a great deal more enthusiastic about the work i'm doing with my thesis, sinse one of the basic tennits I'm arguing is that disability is not a descrete catagory which a person is or is not, such as genda, nationality etc, but a relation betwene a person, his/her biological capacity, freedom of desires and environment which will affect everyone at some point, to a lesser or greater degree throughout life, and as such is a far more universal matter for a government to considder. Of course, whether anyone takes any notice will be another matter entirely :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
