date:20020129

RE: possibly bug with tomcat 4 vs oracle 8.1.7 ??

2002-01-29 Thread Gerhard Froehlich


Hi,
wrong list, try the tomcat mail lists instead:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/index.html

  Gerhard
 

Give me ambiguity or give me something else.



>-Original Message-
>From: Giovanni Zorzan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 5:17 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: possibly bug with tomcat 4 vs oracle 8.1.7 ??
>
>
>we try to use JDBCStore against a Oracle 8i database.
>the connection works (and tomcat insert some rows into table session), but 
>in the log we have seen this:
>
>2002-01-29 16:47:42 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Stopping
>2002-01-29 16:47:42 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Saving 1 persisted sessions
>2002-01-29 16:47:43 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Removing Session 
>7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 at database tomcat_sessions
>2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: writeObject() storing 
>session 7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385
>2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   storing attribute 
>'SesCategory' with value 'F'
>2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   storing attribute 
>'poolname' with value 'forum'
>2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   storing attribute 
>'sezione' with value 'aziende'
>2002-01-29 16:47:43 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Saving Session 
>7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 to database tomcat_sessions
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 WebappLoader[/lumetel]: Deploying class repositories to 
>work directory /var/tomcat4/work/als.lumetel.it/lumetel
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Starting
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Force random number 
>initialization starting
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Seeding random number 
>generator class java.security.SecureRandom
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Seeding of random number 
>generator has been completed
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Getting message digest 
>component for algorithm MD5
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Completed getting message 
>digest component
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Force random number 
>initialization completed
>2002-01-29 16:47:54 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: The database connection is null or 
>was found to be closed. Trying to re-open it.
>2002-01-29 16:47:56 ContextConfig[/lumetel]: Configured an authenticator 
>for method FORM
>2002-01-29 16:47:56 StandardWrapper[/lumetel:default]: Loading container 
>servlet default
>2002-01-29 16:47:56 default: init
>2002-01-29 16:47:56 StandardWrapper[/lumetel:invoker]: Loading container 
>servlet invoker
>2002-01-29 16:47:56 invoker: init
>2002-01-29 16:47:56 jsp: init
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Removing Session 
>67C3B5C895E57191C54860B35775C3B9 at database tomcat_sessions
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: readObject() loading 
>session 7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   loading attribute 
>'SesCategory' with value 'F'
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   loading attribute 
>'poolname' with value 'forum'
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   loading attribute 
>'sezione' with value 'aziende'
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Loading Session 
>7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 from database tomcat_sessions
>2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Swapping session 
>7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 in from Store
>2002-01-29 16:48:33 jsp: init
>2002-01-29 16:48:33 jsp: init
>2002-01-29 16:48:55 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: SQL Error java.sql.SQLException: 
>ORA-00979: not a GROUP BY expression
>
>with toad (oracle tool) we have seen that the last line is caused  by:
>
>SELECT
>   COUNT(s.session_id),
>   s.session_id
>FROM
>   tomcat_sessions s,
>   tomcat_sessions c GROUP BY c.session_id
>
>the error is in group by expression; the "group by" element must be in the 
>select list. For us the correct sintax is:
>
>SELECT
>   COUNT(s.session_id),
>   s.session_id
>FROM
>   tomcat_sessions s,
>   tomcat_sessions c GROUP BY s.session_id
>
>thank you for your time!
>
>
>
> []-[Giovanni Zorzan ]-[]
> []-[ Agenzia Lumetel Scrl ]-[]
> []-[  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   ]-[]


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RE: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

2002-01-29 Thread GOMEZ Henri


>So we now have three proposed ways forward:
>
>> >Option 1.1
>> >Each project put's their jar's back in - but
>> >according to the guidelines below.
>> >
>> >Option 2.2
>> >We create a 'xml-third-party' repository for
>> >all the third party jar's. Following the
>> >guide lines below.
>> >
>> >So we keep all 3rd party and alien code in
>> >one place.
>>
>>   Option 2.3:
>>  Don't import any jar back into the cvs, but fills a
>   complete and exact dependency list -)
>

I agree with Guillaume, 2.3 is the cleanest way and the easiest
to give coherent dependencies. And It raise another question, 
that you could require different versions of the same API
and so could have to introduce a jar renaming, as does
jakarta-regexp, ie jakarta-regexp-1.2.jar.

And when you have solved that, you're ready to have all jars
in the same location, ie /usr/share/java/ as used in jpackage
project (I'm involved in it with Guillaume) and debian-java.

Regards

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Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

2002-01-29 Thread Dirk-Willem van Gulik




On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Guillaume Rousse wrote:

So we now have three proposed ways forward:

> > Option 1.1
> > Each project put's their jar's back in - but
> > according to the guidelines below.
> >
> > Option 2.2
> > We create a 'xml-third-party' repository for
> > all the third party jar's. Following the
> > guide lines below.
> >
> > So we keep all 3rd party and alien code in
> > one place.
>
>   Option 2.3:
>  Don't import any jar back into the cvs, but fills a
   complete and exact dependency list -)

Opinions ?

Dw.


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FW: Faq-o-matic down

2002-01-29 Thread Paulo Gaspar




> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Faq-o-matic down
>
>
> Hello,
>
> When I clicked the link "Official Jakarta Faq-o-matic" on
> the page "http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html";, I got
> an ugly stack trace like the following.  It appears that
> the link is down.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
>
> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.jav
> a:648) at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158)
> at
> org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d
> oPerform(DefaultSessionValidator.java:101)
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
> org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
> org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
> javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
> javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A
> pplicationFilterChain.java:247)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati
> onFilterChain.java:193)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp
> erValve.java:243)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte
> xtValve.java:201)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.ja
> va:2344)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv
> e.java:164)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat
> cherValve.java:170)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv
> e.java:170)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine
> Valve.java:163)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce
> ssor.java:1011)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor
> .java:1106)
> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
>
>
>


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FW: Web site error

2002-01-29 Thread Paulo Gaspar




> -Original Message-
> From: Allen Chesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 10:41 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Web site error
>
>
> The URL
>
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/
> action/SetAll/project_id/2
>
> which is the "Official Jakarta Faq-o-matic" link from URL
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
>
> produces a set of JAVA exceptions as follows:
>
> Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648)
>
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158)
>
> at
> org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d
> oPerform(DefaultSessionValidator.java:101)
>
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91)
> at
> org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119)
> at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A
pplicationFilterChain.java:247)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati
> onFilterChain.java:193)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp
> erValve.java:243)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte
> xtValve.java:201)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv
> e.java:164)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat
> cherValve.java:170)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv
> e.java:170)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine
> Valve.java:163)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce
> ssor.java:1011)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor
> .java:1106)
>
> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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RE: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


No worries.

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Sven Ewert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:47 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: AW: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> sorry guys,
> ive not followed all threads and answerd to fast. :o)
> 
> c ya
> 
> ---
> sven (e)wert
>!!!   ___
> ()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
> (o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
> ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
>  (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)
> 
> -> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> -> Von: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> -> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:33
> -> An: Jakarta General List
> -> Betreff: Re: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> ->
> ->
> -> Dude, these are all clients.  We're talking about EXCHANGE not 
> -> OUTLOOK or MAILBOX.  I'm using evolution right this very 
> moment.  It 
> -> doesn't do what you say...its not a server AFAIK!  It 
> could connect 
> -> to JAMES and hopefully USE the features...but doesn't provide them 
> -> serverside.
> ->
> -> -Andy
> ->
> -> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 16:34, Sven Ewert wrote:
> -> > -> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> -> > -> Von: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> -> > -> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:19
> -> > -> An: Jakarta General List
> -> > -> Betreff: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> -> > ->
> -> > ->
> -> > ->
> -> > -> > If your goal is to target other developers, then why use
> -> > -> Exchange at all
> -> > -> > when there are better solutions out there?
> -> > ->
> -> > -> Such as...?
> -> > ->
> -> > -> With calendaring support?
> -> >
> -> > with calendaring: 
> http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_evolution/
> -> >
> -> > without calendaring:
> -> > http://www.washington.edu/pine/ http://www.instinct.org/elm/
> -> > http://www.mutt.org/
> -> >
> -> > :o)
> -> > AND YEZ I WAS SENDIG THIS MAIL WITH OUTLOOK (in the headder) 
> -> > hehehe.
> -> >
> -> >
> -> >
> -> > ->
> -> > ->
> -> > ->
> -> > ->
> -> > ->
> -> > -> --
> -> > -> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > -> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > -> 
> > ---
> > sven (e)wert
> >!!!   ___
> > ()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
> > (o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
> > ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
> >  (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> >
> --
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> java 
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/448755
5.html
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador 
Kosh


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Re: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread lloyd



> with calendaring:
> http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_evolution/

Shared, server-based calendaring?  With ACL's?  And native client
support?

Having kept a hopeful eye out for server-based, native-client, open
source groupware projects for about a year, color me skeptical.  For
some reason there is great interest in the project initially, and then
it reaches a mysterious point when everything DIES.

It would be great if it happens, though.  I'd use it.




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AW: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Sven Ewert


sorry guys,
ive not followed all threads and answerd to fast. :o)

c ya

---
sven (e)wert
   !!!   ___
()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
(o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
 (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)

-> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
-> Von: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
-> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:33
-> An: Jakarta General List
-> Betreff: Re: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
->
->
-> Dude, these are all clients.  We're talking about EXCHANGE not OUTLOOK
-> or MAILBOX.  I'm using evolution right this very moment.  It doesn't do
-> what you say...its not a server AFAIK!  It could connect to JAMES and
-> hopefully USE the features...but doesn't provide them serverside.
->
-> -Andy
->
-> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 16:34, Sven Ewert wrote:
-> > -> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
-> > -> Von: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
-> > -> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:19
-> > -> An: Jakarta General List
-> > -> Betreff: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> > If your goal is to target other developers, then why use
-> > -> Exchange at all
-> > -> > when there are better solutions out there?
-> > ->
-> > -> Such as...?
-> > ->
-> > -> With calendaring support?
-> >
-> > with calendaring:
-> > http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_evolution/
-> >
-> > without calendaring:
-> > http://www.washington.edu/pine/
-> > http://www.instinct.org/elm/
-> > http://www.mutt.org/
-> >
-> > :o)
-> > AND YEZ I WAS SENDIG THIS MAIL WITH OUTLOOK (in the headder) hehehe.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> --
-> > -> To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> -> For additional commands, e-mail:
> -> 
> ---
> sven (e)wert
>!!!   ___
> ()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
> (o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
> ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
>  (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


Dude, these are all clients.  We're talking about EXCHANGE not OUTLOOK
or MAILBOX.  I'm using evolution right this very moment.  It doesn't do
what you say...its not a server AFAIK!  It could connect to JAMES and
hopefully USE the features...but doesn't provide them serverside.

-Andy

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 16:34, Sven Ewert wrote:
> -> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> -> Von: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> -> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:19
> -> An: Jakarta General List
> -> Betreff: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> ->
> ->
> ->
> -> > If your goal is to target other developers, then why use
> -> Exchange at all
> -> > when there are better solutions out there?
> ->
> -> Such as...?
> ->
> -> With calendaring support?
> 
> with calendaring:
> http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_evolution/
> 
> without calendaring:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/
> http://www.instinct.org/elm/
> http://www.mutt.org/
> 
> :o)
> AND YEZ I WAS SENDIG THIS MAIL WITH OUTLOOK (in the headder) hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> ->
> ->
> ->
> ->
> ->
> -> --
> -> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> -> For additional commands, e-mail:
> -> 
> ---
> sven (e)wert
>!!!   ___
> ()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
> (o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
> ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
>  (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Evoution is a client, not a server...

Evolution ~= Outlook. 
Evolution != Exchange.

Evolution even has a plugin for Exchange Server, because if they didn't, the corporate 
world would not be too happy.

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Sven Ewert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:34 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> -> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> -> Von: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> -> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:19
> -> An: Jakarta General List
> -> Betreff: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> ->
> ->
> ->
> -> > If your goal is to target other developers, then why use
> -> Exchange at all
> -> > when there are better solutions out there?
> ->
> -> Such as...?
> ->
> -> With calendaring support?
> 
> with calendaring: http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_evolution/
> 
> without calendaring:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/
> http://www.instinct.org/elm/
> http://www.mutt.org/
> 
> :o)
> AND YEZ I WAS SENDIG THIS MAIL WITH OUTLOOK (in the headder) hehehe.
> 
> 
> 
> ->
> ->
> ->
> ->
> ->
> -> --
> -> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> -> For 
> additional commands, e-mail: 
> -> 
> ---
> sven (e)wert
>!!!   ___
> ()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
> (o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
> ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
>  (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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AW: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Sven Ewert


-> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
-> Von: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
-> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Januar 2002 22:19
-> An: Jakarta General List
-> Betreff: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
->
->
->
-> > If your goal is to target other developers, then why use
-> Exchange at all
-> > when there are better solutions out there?
->
-> Such as...?
->
-> With calendaring support?

with calendaring:
http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_evolution/

without calendaring:
http://www.washington.edu/pine/
http://www.instinct.org/elm/
http://www.mutt.org/

:o)
AND YEZ I WAS SENDIG THIS MAIL WITH OUTLOOK (in the headder) hehehe.



->
->
->
->
->
-> --
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---
sven (e)wert
   !!!   ___
()_() `  _ _  ' <_*_>
(o o)  -  (OXO)  -  (o o)
ooO--`o'--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo--8---(_)--Ooo-
 (¯`·.¸(¯`·.¸ I`ll greetz you ¸.·´¯)¸.·´¯)


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread lloyd



> If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all
> when there are better solutions out there?

Such as...?  

With calendaring support?





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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread lloyd


> > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > 
> > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> 
> Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t?
> 
> Let's innovate, not duplicate.

A competitor doesn't have to be a clone - it just has to fulfill the
role of the other product.





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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik


On 29 Jan 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

| I'll subscribe.
|
| (Hey you Endre ...see what just happened)

Yes! And it's all my fault! ;-]

heh-heh! ,)

Endre


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


I'll subscribe.  

(Hey you Endre ...see what just happened)

-Andy

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:50, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Well I guess I now have to step up and put the code in place.  I will
> see you and anyone interested over on james-dev.
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:43 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > Oh and don't forget Lotus notes.  Notes seems to be somewhat 
> > of a deprecation, but had some app development features that 
> > are still used in a lot of places.  Modernize these and make 
> > them more web-ish and you'd have something that would make a 
> > lot of folks very happy.
> > 
> > 1. MIS Managers - $$$, interoperability, TCO
> > 2. Sysadmins- frustration
> > 3. Developers   - migrate off of Notes, 
> > little-exchange-version-of-notes
> > 4. users- stability
> > 5. power users  - choice of email client, features
> > 
> > This sounds like a great idea Scott.
> > 
> > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:41, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > > Some users REQUIRE Outlook, which works with Exchange to provide 
> > > collaboration.
> > > 
> > > MIS managers install both.  But the users require Outlook, not 
> > > Exchange.
> > > 
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:44 PM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, "Scott Sanders" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to
> > > > target users
> > > > > that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> > > > > 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> > > > > 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities 
> > (calendaring, etc.)
> > > > > 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The users will change if they don't know that the 
> > change happened.
> > > > > Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug 
> > into an OSS 
> > > > > impl.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Scott
> > > > 
> > > > Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do.
> > > > 
> > > > -jon
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > For
> > > > additional commands, 
> > > > e-mail: 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > -- 
> > www.superlinksoftware.com
> > www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> > java 
> > http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
> .html 
>   - fix java generics!
> 
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote. -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Well I guess I now have to step up and put the code in place.  I will
see you and anyone interested over on james-dev.

Cheers,
Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:43 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> Oh and don't forget Lotus notes.  Notes seems to be somewhat 
> of a deprecation, but had some app development features that 
> are still used in a lot of places.  Modernize these and make 
> them more web-ish and you'd have something that would make a 
> lot of folks very happy.
> 
> 1. MIS Managers - $$$, interoperability, TCO
> 2. Sysadmins- frustration
> 3. Developers   - migrate off of Notes, 
> little-exchange-version-of-notes
> 4. users- stability
> 5. power users  - choice of email client, features
> 
> This sounds like a great idea Scott.
> 
> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:41, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > Some users REQUIRE Outlook, which works with Exchange to provide 
> > collaboration.
> > 
> > MIS managers install both.  But the users require Outlook, not 
> > Exchange.
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:44 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > > 
> > > 
> > > on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, "Scott Sanders" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to
> > > target users
> > > > that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> > > > 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> > > > 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities 
> (calendaring, etc.)
> > > > 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> > > > 
> > > > The users will change if they don't know that the 
> change happened.
> > > > Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug 
> into an OSS 
> > > > impl.
> > > > 
> > > > Scott
> > > 
> > > Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do.
> > > 
> > > -jon
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For
> > > additional commands, 
> > > e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> java 
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
.html 
- fix java generics!


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


Oh and don't forget Lotus notes.  Notes seems to be somewhat of a
deprecation, but had some app development features that are still used
in a lot of places.  Modernize these and make them more web-ish and
you'd have something that would make a lot of folks very happy.

1. MIS Managers - $$$, interoperability, TCO
2. Sysadmins- frustration
3. Developers   - migrate off of Notes, little-exchange-version-of-notes
4. users- stability
5. power users  - choice of email client, features

This sounds like a great idea Scott.

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:41, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Some users REQUIRE Outlook, which works with Exchange to provide
> collaboration.
> 
> MIS managers install both.  But the users require Outlook, not Exchange.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:44 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to 
> > target users 
> > > that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> > > 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> > > 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.)
> > > 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> > > 
> > > The users will change if they don't know that the change happened.  
> > > Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS 
> > > impl.
> > > 
> > > Scott
> > 
> > Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do.
> > 
> > -jon
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:44, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to target users
> > that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> > 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> > 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.)
> > 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> > 
> > The users will change if they don't know that the change happened.  Then
> > things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl.
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do.
> 

Who would like a money motivator, and yet have to deal with
interoperability.  Great Actor identification Jon.

> -jon
> 
> 
> --
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Some users REQUIRE Outlook, which works with Exchange to provide
collaboration.

MIS managers install both.  But the users require Outlook, not Exchange.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to 
> target users 
> > that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> > 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> > 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.)
> > 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> > 
> > The users will change if they don't know that the change happened.  
> > Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS 
> > impl.
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to target users
> that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.)
> 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> 
> The users will change if they don't know that the change happened.  Then
> things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl.
> 
> Scott

Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do.

-jon


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 1/29/02 12:18 PM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Why not view me as an outsider, trying to use your cool stuff, not finding
> my way around, wading through small and big projects alike..

My point is that there is no such thing as an 'outsider'. You can become
just as involved as I am and there are no road blocks to doing so other than
your own.

If you have questions that would help clear up your confusion, I am more
than happy to answer them for you. If you would like to tell us how to do
things I'm more than happy to ignore you. If you would like to contribute
something that would improve the project, I would be more than happy to help
you.

See my point?

> Because there are _better_ alternatives, like maybe Velocity?

Well, thanks for the compliments...given that I started both projects...

> The "deprecated" thing would not remove the project, it could just direct
> new people to use better, newer technologies. So both JServ, Tomcat 3.1
> and ECS would still be used and even developed a bit further, but new
> people could use better tech.

It is plastered all over the Jserv homepage that it is deprecated. ECS isn't
deprecated because it does still have uses for some people. Some people
honestly prefer it.

-jon

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Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

2002-01-29 Thread Guillaume Rousse


Ainsi parlait Dirk-Willem van Gulik :
[..]
> The next step - fixing things can take more time:
>
> 2.Getting our code to work again.
>
>   Option 1.1
>   Each project put's their jar's back in - but
>   according to the guidelines below.
>
>   Option 2.2
>   We create a 'xml-third-party' repository for
>   all the third party jar's. Following the
>   guide lines below.
>
>   So we keep all 3rd party and alien code in
>   one place.
Option 2.3:
Don't import any jar back into the cvs, but fills a complete and exact 
dependency list -)

Ok, not exactly what you're looking for, but at least it could open the 
debate. Outside of java world, i never saw any binary in CVS. Instead there 
are README files telling: you need libfoo-x.y.z and libbar-x.y.z to build 
this soft.
Putting dependencies in CVS is nasty because:
- you make release tarballs biggers
- you end up with lots of duplicated files on your box
- you give headache to external people wanting to package the soft properly 
for computing exact dependencies (but what version of foobar is this 
foobar.jar exactly ?)
- you can't follow external dependencies evolutions, as you use a static one

So, why not profit of the big CVS clean-up to adopt more coherent practice ?
-- 
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html

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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


Especially as they jack up the prices.

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:30, Scott Sanders wrote:
> And IBM *was* a monopoly for a reason.  Time has a way of changing
> things.  I firmly believe that Outlook is the major reason that Linux is
> not on the desktop.  But that is just my opinion.
> 
> Scot
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:27 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > on 1/29/02 12:06 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > My issue is the places I
> > > typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for 
> > > Exchange...heck yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that 
> > > spamming virus ridden security hole and would be able to 
> > pick my own 
> > > email client instead of often being forced into one.
> > > 
> > > -Andy
> > 
> > What makes you think that you could actually do that?
> > 
> > M$ is a monopoly for a reason.
> > 
> > -jon
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:29, Scott Sanders wrote:
> My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to target users
> that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
> 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
> 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.)
> 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.
> 
> The users will change if they don't know that the change happened.  Then
> things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl.  
> 

+1!  

> Scott
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:26 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the 
> > > purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like 
> > > Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user 
> > > thinks that it *is* Exchange.
> > > 
> > > Scott
> > 
> > What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install 
> > an OSS Jakarta technology over just installing Exchange?
> > 
> > If your goal is to target other developers, then why use 
> > Exchange at all when there are better solutions out there?
> > 
> > See my point?
> > 
> > -jon
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


And IBM *was* a monopoly for a reason.  Time has a way of changing
things.  I firmly believe that Outlook is the major reason that Linux is
not on the desktop.  But that is just my opinion.

Scot

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> on 1/29/02 12:06 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My issue is the places I
> > typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for 
> > Exchange...heck yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that 
> > spamming virus ridden security hole and would be able to 
> pick my own 
> > email client instead of often being forced into one.
> > 
> > -Andy
> 
> What makes you think that you could actually do that?
> 
> M$ is a monopoly for a reason.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:27, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 1/29/02 12:06 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My issue is the places I
> > typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck
> > yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden
> > security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of
> > often being forced into one.
> > 
> > -Andy
> 
> What makes you think that you could actually do that?
> 

;-) Recession, I'm very persuasive :-D, and I'm getting better at that
sort of thing:

JAMES, because we didn't know groupware was supposed to suck  (did I
steal that?) 

JAMES, the best patch for your next 100 email server security holes!

JAMES, because $(calculate the cost of exchange per 100 users) is way
freaking too much to pay if its going to be down all day anyhow.

> M$ is a monopoly for a reason.
> 

So give up!  Learn C# and ditch apache.  Start "Wakarta" providing C#
extensions to IIS, Exchange, etc.  ;-)

> -jon
> 
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


My goal is NOT to target other developers.  My goal is to target users
that *HAVE* to have exchange because they:
1) *HAVE* to use Outlook.
2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.)
3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl.

The users will change if they don't know that the change happened.  Then
things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl.  

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:26 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the 
> > purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like 
> > Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user 
> > thinks that it *is* Exchange.
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install 
> an OSS Jakarta technology over just installing Exchange?
> 
> If your goal is to target other developers, then why use 
> Exchange at all when there are better solutions out there?
> 
> See my point?
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:26, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the
> > purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like
> > Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks
> > that it *is* Exchange.
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install an OSS Jakarta
> technology over just installing Exchange?
> 

because MS keeps upping the price.  Recessions are great for that kinda
thing.

> If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all
> when there are better solutions out there?
> 

I could make the same arguments for just about any serverside software. 
HTTPD for instance ;-)


> See my point?
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


What I'm saying is duplicate the cool features, interoperate with the
client but be better. 

I agree with both Scott and am willing to help as much as I can, and Jon
(that exchange sucks...though I think he could express the degree of
suckiness better than I can ;-) ).  

I also think making client *choice* an integral part of it would be a
nice feature.  I freaking hate outlook. 

-Andy

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:12, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:07, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the
> > purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like
> > Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks
> > that it *is* Exchange.
> > 
> 
> + 1/2 - the users that WANT to believe its exchange.  The ones with
> brains can use their brains and say "gee do I want to use a client that
> every freaking email virus in the world less like 3 was written for"...
> ;-)
> 
> > Scott
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:08 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > > 
> > > 
> > > on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > > >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> > > 
> > > Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t?
> > > 
> > > Let's innovate, not duplicate.
> > > 
> > > -jon
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For 
> > > additional commands, 
> > > e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > 
> -- 
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
>   - fix java generics!
> 
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
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> 
> 
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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 12:06 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My issue is the places I
> typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck
> yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden
> security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of
> often being forced into one.
> 
> -Andy

What makes you think that you could actually do that?

M$ is a monopoly for a reason.

-jon


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the
> purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like
> Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks
> that it *is* Exchange.
> 
> Scott

What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install an OSS Jakarta
technology over just installing Exchange?

If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all
when there are better solutions out there?

See my point?

-jon

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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Sam Ruby


Scott Sanders wrote:
>
> Again, why don't you send a patch with the pages that you would
> like to see, and then we could discuss that?  What we are saying
> is that we do not really know how a jakarta user wants to see it.
> You do.  So post some HTML and lets talk about it.,

+1.  It doesn't even have to be in the form of HTML.  Straight text using
notepad/vi/emacs with ASCII art would seed the discussion just as
effectively.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:14 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:13, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > The user *must* still be able to use Outlook, security 
> holes and all. 
> > Once the IT dept can replace Exchange on the back end, then the 
> > innovation starts to show...
> > 
> 
> Thats what I meant.  I just meant to say being interoperable 
> with doesn't mean you have to suck too.  ;-)

Yes. Exactly.



Scott

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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:13, Scott Sanders wrote:
> The user *must* still be able to use Outlook, security holes and all.
> Once the IT dept can replace Exchange on the back end, then the
> innovation starts to show...
> 

Thats what I meant.  I just meant to say being interoperable with
doesn't mean you have to suck too.  ;-)

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:06 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:08, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > > on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > > >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> > > 
> > > Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a 
> > piece of sh*t?
> > > 
> > 
> > + 1/2
> > 
> > I think achieving interoperability with the clients would be 
> > good. Basically a drop-inable replacement that is *better*.
> > 
> > I like the calendar thing in excel et al...I'd never actually 
> > use it unless forced because I've got my palm (and yes I 
> > don't actually care about synchronizing it because I never 
> > use that info on my PC or if I do its less convenient to 
> > synch then type).  My issue is the places I typically work if 
> > I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck yeah 
> > cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus 
> > ridden security hole and would be able to pick my own email 
> > client instead of often being forced into one. 
> > 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > > Let's innovate, not duplicate.
> > > 
> > > -jon
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > -- 
> > www.superlinksoftware.com
> > www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> > java 
> > http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
> .html 
>   - fix java generics!
> 
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote. -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:07, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the
> purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like
> Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks
> that it *is* Exchange.
> 

+ 1/2 - the users that WANT to believe its exchange.  The ones with
brains can use their brains and say "gee do I want to use a client that
every freaking email virus in the world less like 3 was written for"...
;-)

> Scott
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:08 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > > 
> > > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> > 
> > Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t?
> > 
> > Let's innovate, not duplicate.
> > 
> > -jon
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


The user *must* still be able to use Outlook, security holes and all.
Once the IT dept can replace Exchange on the back end, then the
innovation starts to show...

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:06 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:08, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > > 
> > > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> > 
> > Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a 
> piece of sh*t?
> > 
> 
> + 1/2
> 
> I think achieving interoperability with the clients would be 
> good. Basically a drop-inable replacement that is *better*.
> 
> I like the calendar thing in excel et al...I'd never actually 
> use it unless forced because I've got my palm (and yes I 
> don't actually care about synchronizing it because I never 
> use that info on my PC or if I do its less convenient to 
> synch then type).  My issue is the places I typically work if 
> I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck yeah 
> cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus 
> ridden security hole and would be able to pick my own email 
> client instead of often being forced into one. 
> 
> -Andy
> 
> > Let's innovate, not duplicate.
> > 
> > -jon
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> java 
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
.html 
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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik


On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

| on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| > | What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with
| > | something that has no activity?  Should Jserv die because the last
| > | release was forever ago?  I think not.  Jserv is a production server
| > | that lives in many production sites.  Try finding a java web hoster
| > | that uses something other than Jserv.
| > |
| > | What is your patch to the problem?
| >
| > This is just some quick ideas.
|
| "Those with the most opinions tend to contribute the least code."
|
| We don't need quick ideas. We need people who are stepping up to the plate
| and making real stuff happen.

Why not view me as an outsider, trying to use your cool stuff, not finding
my way around, wading through small and big projects alike..
  Not even to mention XML (which I just discovered today) and the rest of
Apache. Should've been consolidated, the whole thing. Into a big nice
tree..

|
| > JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too.
| > Maybe some other products as well.
|
| Excuse me, but why should ECS be deprecated? People still use it. There is
| still developers checking in code for it and patches are being sent to the
| mailing list. That smells like an active project to me.

Because there are _better_ alternatives, like maybe Velocity?

The "deprecated" thing would not remove the project, it could just direct
new people to use better, newer technologies. So both JServ, Tomcat 3.1
and ECS would still be used and even developed a bit further, but new
people could use better tech.

|
| > I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other
| > systems in that there is a "board" that oversees the whole thing, accepts
| > new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be
| > deprecated.  This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of
| > another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new
| > projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think.
| > It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta,
| > and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least
| > some common "quality" control on these types of projects?
|
| First you say there is an advantage of no 'board that oversees the whole
| thing' and then you say shouldn't there be at least some common quality
| control. Make up your mind dude.

Hmm.. Huh? I say that Apache and Jakarta _has_ (should have used "have",
maybe?) a real advantage ..


-- 
Mvh,
Endre



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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:08, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > 
> > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> 
> Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t?
> 

+ 1/2 

I think achieving interoperability with the clients would be good.
Basically a drop-inable replacement that is *better*.

I like the calendar thing in excel et al...I'd never actually use it
unless forced because I've got my palm (and yes I don't actually care
about synchronizing it because I never use that info on my PC or if I do
its less convenient to synch then type).  My issue is the places I
typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck
yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden
security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of
often being forced into one. 

-Andy

> Let's innovate, not duplicate.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


So then start the base code in the commons, and create impls in Jetspeed
and James that use the base.

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Prickett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:10 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> > 
> > Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO.  I think that 
> JAMES could 
> > become an Exchange killer :)
> > 
> 
> Good point, I would accept that place as a home for the back 
> end objects. Possibly split iCalendar between JAMES and 
> Jetspeed or make it its own module that plugs in to either. 
> Front end - Jetspeed, Back end JAMES. I would like to see 
> Apache create an Exchange killer, but that talk is premature :).
> 
> Jeff Prickett
> 
> 
> Rest of converstion
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Innovation is necessary.  But duplication is also necessary for the
purpose of adoption.  The only way to beat Exchange is to look like
Exchange.  The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks
that it *is* Exchange.

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:08 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> >> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> > 
> > Yes yes yes yes yes.
> 
> Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t?
> 
> Let's innovate, not duplicate.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Again, why don't you send a patch with the pages that you would like to see, and then 
we could discuss that?  What we are saying is that we do not really know how a jakarta 
user wants to see it.  You do.  So post some HTML and lets talk about it.,

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> 
> | > As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system 
> of Jakarta? 
> | > If a project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, the 
> list dies 
> | > or something like this, does it die away from Jakarta too?
> |
> | What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with 
> | something that has no activity?  Should Jserv die because the last 
> | release was forever ago?  I think not.  Jserv is a 
> production server 
> | that lives in many production sites.  Try finding a java web hoster 
> | that uses something other than Jserv.
> |
> | What is your patch to the problem?
> 
> This is just some quick ideas. No patches, again... This is 
> for the "customer" view of your cool open source products. 
> The developers hopefully know what they're developing already..!
> 
> *) A couple of different web pages. One called "releases", 
> another called "in development" and a thrid called 
> "deprecated" or something similar.
> 
> *) All pages whould be further divided into groups, maybe 
> even some kind of tree, based on functionality. It's already 
> started by the grouping in that table done on the frontpage, 
> which is good. This grouping could be identical on each page.
> 
> *) "Releases" are the stuff that are released and maybe "in 
> production quality". By the minor numbers you'd see if a 
> project had had some time to mature. Maybe a download 
> counter, so that you'd see how many which is potentially 
> using it. A release date with the download, so that you'd 
> understand how "fresh" the release was.
>   A release is decided by the project team.
> 
> *) "Under development" are things that are in development, in 
> beta cycling or release candidate or similar stages.
> 
> *) "Deprecated" are things that have lost most of their 
> community, or which have been truly deprecated by other 
> products which are "superior". In this way people wouldn't 
> start fumbling around with old technology, but concentrate on 
> the stuff that Jakarta felt was up to speed with the current 
> state of the art.
>   It could potentially be a bit difficult to decide what 
> would end up in this section. But I think that the developers 
> of the projects (if there was any left) would decide this themselves.
> 
> Several things would maybe have to appear both in "releases" 
> and "under development".
> 
> JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. 
> Tomcat 3.1 too. Maybe some other products as well.
> 
> I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over 
> those other systems in that there is a "board" that oversees 
> the whole thing, accepts new stuff into the system, and maybe 
> also suggests that things should be deprecated.  This will 
> ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of another 
> level of quality than other development systems. Accepting 
> new projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think.
>   It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, 
> at Jakarta, and that they can come from other sources. 
> Shouldn't there be at least some common "quality" control on 
> these types of projects?
> 
> *) Furter; if things started to get a bit too big, one could 
> further divide the projects, and create new boards. The 
> "Libray, Tools and APIs" could have one board, the 
> "Frameworks and Engines" could have another and so on.  A 
> subdivision at each level that got too big.
> 
> *) There could even be a section (page) called "Under 
> Consideration", but that could maybe be left up to sourceforge?
> 
> 
> Endre.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik


On 29 Jan 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

| On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
| > Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.  I can
| > plug in WebDAV support and then right some plugins for Outlook and
| > voila, the user would never know the difference.
| >
| > How's that for reducing TCO?
| >
|
| That's awesome!  I'm a bit stretched right at the moment, but you let me
| know any way I can help.  I would LOVE to see exchange go away or at
| least a suitable alternative that I could sell the idea of converting to
| (at the places I contract, etc), I hate that thing (Exchange) so
| sooo much.

I heard about an alternatice to Exchange, running on Linux. Not open
source, but an alternative..!

I think it was these folks:

http://www.bynari.net/groupware.html


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Endre



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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jeff Prickett

Scott Sanders wrote:
> 
> Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO.  I think that JAMES could
> become an Exchange killer :)
> 

Good point, I would accept that place as a home for the back end
objects. Possibly split
iCalendar between JAMES and Jetspeed or make it its own module that
plugs in to either.
Front end - Jetspeed, Back end JAMES. I would like to see Apache create
an Exchange killer, but that talk is premature :).

Jeff Prickett

Rest of converstion

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
>> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.
> 
> Yes yes yes yes yes.

Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t?

Let's innovate, not duplicate.

-jon


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> | What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with
> | something that has no activity?  Should Jserv die because the last
> | release was forever ago?  I think not.  Jserv is a production server
> | that lives in many production sites.  Try finding a java web hoster
> | that uses something other than Jserv.
> |
> | What is your patch to the problem?
> 
> This is just some quick ideas.

"Those with the most opinions tend to contribute the least code."

We don't need quick ideas. We need people who are stepping up to the plate
and making real stuff happen.

> JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too.
> Maybe some other products as well.

Excuse me, but why should ECS be deprecated? People still use it. There is
still developers checking in code for it and patches are being sent to the
mailing list. That smells like an active project to me.

> I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other
> systems in that there is a "board" that oversees the whole thing, accepts
> new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be
> deprecated.  This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of
> another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new
> projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think.
> It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta,
> and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least
> some common "quality" control on these types of projects?

First you say there is an advantage of no 'board that oversees the whole
thing' and then you say shouldn't there be at least some common quality
control. Make up your mind dude.

-jon


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:54, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> 
> | > As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of
> | > Jakarta? If a project "dies", that nobody seems to update it,
> | > the list dies or something like this, does it die away from
> | > Jakarta too?
> |
> | What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with
> | something that has no activity?  Should Jserv die because the last
> | release was forever ago?  I think not.  Jserv is a production server
> | that lives in many production sites.  Try finding a java web hoster
> | that uses something other than Jserv.
> |
> | What is your patch to the problem?
> 
> This is just some quick ideas. No patches, again... This is for the
> "customer" view of your cool open source products. The developers
> hopefully know what they're developing already..!
> 
> *) A couple of different web pages. One called "releases", another called
> "in development" and a thrid called "deprecated" or something similar.
> 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html

> *) All pages whould be further divided into groups, maybe even some kind
> of tree, based on functionality. It's already started by the grouping in
> that table done on the frontpage, which is good. This grouping could be
> identical on each page.
> 

+1 to do in the sidebar.  I'll submit a patch/patches to this effect
when I'm done with the poi transition.

> *) "Releases" are the stuff that are released and maybe "in production
> quality". By the minor numbers you'd see if a project had had some time to
> mature. Maybe a download counter, so that you'd see how many which is
> potentially using it. A release date with the download, so that you'd
> understand how "fresh" the release was.
>   A release is decided by the project team.
> 

not sure how this is different from present 

> *) "Under development" are things that are in development, in beta cycling
> or release candidate or similar stages.
> 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html

> *) "Deprecated" are things that have lost most of their community, or
> which have been truly deprecated by other products which are "superior".
> In this way people wouldn't start fumbling around with old technology, but
> concentrate on the stuff that Jakarta felt was up to speed with the
> current state of the art.
>   It could potentially be a bit difficult to decide what would end up in
> this section. But I think that the developers of the projects (if there
> was any left) would decide this themselves.
> 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html - see jserv.

Personally I think JServ should be more prominently featured as there
are still s many people using it (even if development is not
happening any longer).  But I respect the decision not to.

> Several things would maybe have to appear both in "releases" and "under
> development".
> 
> JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too.
> Maybe some other products as well.
> 

-1 on "deprecation" in reference to Tomcat. 3.1 is a version.  Know very
little about ECS.  I think I used it once a long time ago..but I cannot
light the candle of thought.

> I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other
> systems in that there is a "board" that oversees the whole thing, accepts
> new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be
> deprecated.  This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of
> another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new
> projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think.
>   It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta,
> and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least
> some common "quality" control on these types of projects?
> 
> *) Furter; if things started to get a bit too big, one could further
> divide the projects, and create new boards. The "Libray, Tools and APIs"
> could have one board, the "Frameworks and Engines" could have another and
> so on.  A subdivision at each level that got too big.
> 
> *) There could even be a section (page) called "Under Consideration", but
> that could maybe be left up to sourceforge?
> 
> 
> Endre.
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread lloyd


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.  

Yes yes yes yes yes.



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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik



| > As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of
| > Jakarta? If a project "dies", that nobody seems to update it,
| > the list dies or something like this, does it die away from
| > Jakarta too?
|
| What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with
| something that has no activity?  Should Jserv die because the last
| release was forever ago?  I think not.  Jserv is a production server
| that lives in many production sites.  Try finding a java web hoster
| that uses something other than Jserv.
|
| What is your patch to the problem?

This is just some quick ideas. No patches, again... This is for the
"customer" view of your cool open source products. The developers
hopefully know what they're developing already..!

*) A couple of different web pages. One called "releases", another called
"in development" and a thrid called "deprecated" or something similar.

*) All pages whould be further divided into groups, maybe even some kind
of tree, based on functionality. It's already started by the grouping in
that table done on the frontpage, which is good. This grouping could be
identical on each page.

*) "Releases" are the stuff that are released and maybe "in production
quality". By the minor numbers you'd see if a project had had some time to
mature. Maybe a download counter, so that you'd see how many which is
potentially using it. A release date with the download, so that you'd
understand how "fresh" the release was.
  A release is decided by the project team.

*) "Under development" are things that are in development, in beta cycling
or release candidate or similar stages.

*) "Deprecated" are things that have lost most of their community, or
which have been truly deprecated by other products which are "superior".
In this way people wouldn't start fumbling around with old technology, but
concentrate on the stuff that Jakarta felt was up to speed with the
current state of the art.
  It could potentially be a bit difficult to decide what would end up in
this section. But I think that the developers of the projects (if there
was any left) would decide this themselves.

Several things would maybe have to appear both in "releases" and "under
development".

JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too.
Maybe some other products as well.

I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other
systems in that there is a "board" that oversees the whole thing, accepts
new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be
deprecated.  This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of
another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new
projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think.
  It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta,
and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least
some common "quality" control on these types of projects?

*) Furter; if things started to get a bit too big, one could further
divide the projects, and create new boards. The "Libray, Tools and APIs"
could have one board, the "Frameworks and Engines" could have another and
so on.  A subdivision at each level that got too big.

*) There could even be a section (page) called "Under Consideration", but
that could maybe be left up to sourceforge?


Endre.


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.  I can
> plug in WebDAV support and then right some plugins for Outlook and
> voila, the user would never know the difference.
> 
> How's that for reducing TCO?
> 

That's awesome!  I'm a bit stretched right at the moment, but you let me
know any way I can help.  I would LOVE to see exchange go away or at
least a suitable alternative that I could sell the idea of converting to
(at the places I contract, etc), I hate that thing (Exchange) so
sooo much. 

> Welcome to Jakarta BTW.  Having done the whole writing Excel Files in
> Unix thing (BIFF4 back in 1992!), I respect what you have done!
> 

If you get a chance, get a load out of OLE 2 Compound Document Format. 
(our docs on it will be up soon)  They took BIFF4, mixed up the records
a bit, then shoved it in this really ill-conceived (basically
undocumented) archive format that resembles FAT!  (Which is why POI is
fun.  Intellectual puzzles galore!)  (Shameless plug ;-) )

Wait till you see what we do to Word! 

I'll be ready to upload POI tomorrow.  Other than a few doc changes
she's basically ready to go.

Thanks,

Andy

> Scott
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:16 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > h yummy.  I've GOT to check out JAMES...  
> > 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:11, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > > Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO.  I think that 
> > JAMES could 
> > > become an Exchange killer :)
> > > 
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM
> > > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, "Jeff Prickett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I
> > > > think that I
> > > > > have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these
> > > > > sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar 
> > originally 
> > > > > started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and 
> > Fulcrum. They 
> > > > > started in Turbine.
> > > > 
> > > > And they still are in Turbine.  They are "subsections" of
> > > > Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community.  We have 
> > > > the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > One reason calendar died is because, there is no community
> > > > around it.
> > > > > It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my 
> > first goals as 
> > > > > a
> > > > > developer with calendar this time is to get more people 
> > > > involved. It
> > > > > is not that easy.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project.
> > > > Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went 
> > > > back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like 
> > > > -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in 
> > > > Velocity, and - in Avalon)
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > System and Software Consulting
> > > > Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > For
> > > > additional commands, 
> > > > e-mail: 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > -- 
> > www.superlinksoftware.com
> > www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> > java 
> > http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
> .html 
>   - fix java generics!
> 
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote. -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Yes.  I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor.  I can
plug in WebDAV support and then right some plugins for Outlook and
voila, the user would never know the difference.

How's that for reducing TCO?

Welcome to Jakarta BTW.  Having done the whole writing Excel Files in
Unix thing (BIFF4 back in 1992!), I respect what you have done!

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:16 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> h yummy.  I've GOT to check out JAMES...  
> 
> -Andy
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:11, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO.  I think that 
> JAMES could 
> > become an Exchange killer :)
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, "Jeff Prickett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I
> > > think that I
> > > > have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these
> > > > sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar 
> originally 
> > > > started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and 
> Fulcrum. They 
> > > > started in Turbine.
> > > 
> > > And they still are in Turbine.  They are "subsections" of
> > > Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community.  We have 
> > > the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > One reason calendar died is because, there is no community
> > > around it.
> > > > It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my 
> first goals as 
> > > > a
> > > > developer with calendar this time is to get more people 
> > > involved. It
> > > > is not that easy.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project.
> > > Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went 
> > > back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like 
> > > -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in 
> > > Velocity, and - in Avalon)
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > System and Software Consulting
> > > Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For
> > > additional commands, 
> > > e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to 
> java 
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


h yummy.  I've GOT to check out JAMES...  

-Andy


On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:11, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO.  I think that JAMES could
> become an Exchange killer :)
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, "Jeff Prickett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I 
> > think that I 
> > > have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these 
> > > sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally 
> > > started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They 
> > > started in Turbine.
> > 
> > And they still are in Turbine.  They are "subsections" of 
> > Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community.  We have 
> > the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects.
> > 
> > > 
> > > One reason calendar died is because, there is no community 
> > around it. 
> > > It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a 
> > > developer with calendar this time is to get more people 
> > involved. It 
> > > is not that easy.
> > > 
> > 
> > I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project.  
> > Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went 
> > back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like 
> > -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in 
> > Velocity, and - in Avalon)
> > 
> > -- 
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > System and Software Consulting
> > Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


+1

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:07, Scott Sanders wrote:
> Comments inline...
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:02 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > | What's the point?
> > |
> > | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS 
> > | repositories.
> > |
> > | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?
> > 
> > Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what 
> > Jakarta is all about. "Browsing" it.. Reading about all the 
> > cool technologies that's in there.
> 
> SUBMIT A PATCH!!!
> 
> > 
> > |
> > | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's 
> > something we 
> > | need to address on the website, I think.
> > 
> > Yes.
> > 
> > |
> > |
> > | > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that 
> > he'll make a 
> > | > nice, thight, _small_ little library, it seems like 
> > getting it into 
> > | > Jakarta just takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
> > |
> > | No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, 
> > | Commons and a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  
> > | That's it.
> > 
> > I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy 
> > to get a project accepted at Jakarta if you already have 
> > "some control" over the community.
> 
> Not really, there are guidelines, and that is but one.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of
> > | jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the 
> > right way, 
> > | BTW.
> > 
> > I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now..
> > 
> > People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude 
> > if they ask whether this or that project could 
> > interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, while people (or.. Jon?) 
> > on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me stuffing this 
> > little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes 
> > response time, it's now in place."
> 
> What did jon stuff into the top level?  Do you understand that ECS is on of the 
>OLDEST projects here at Jakarta, that was started with Jserv at java.apache.org, and 
>moved to jakarta to avoid trademark issues with the java name?  No one just stuffed 
>it in.  Where you here when this happened?  I have been lurking in the java-apache 
>space since early 1998, and I can say that the community back then was MUCH smaller.
> 
> > 
> > | > While if fantastically cool projects
> > | > that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about 
> > impossible.
> > |
> > | Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.
> > 
> > How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? 
> > And how much more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to 
> > go through, compared to ECS?
> 
> That is up to the person you ask.  Someone from Avalon would probably say Avalon is 
>most important.  I would actually say that ANT is the most important.  I am not even 
>a committer there.  Others would say Tomcat.  Even others from the old days would say 
>that Jserv is the most important.  Point is that nothing is 'cooler' than anything 
>else, only on a person by person basis.
> 
> > 
> > | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?
> > 
> > BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.
> 
> Are they not in?  I think that they are :)
> 
> > 
> > | > (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than 
> > | > everybody elses.)
> > |
> > | Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...
> > 
> > I know.
> 
> Because he has actually been involved here pratically forever!!!  I will always hear 
>Jon, Pier, Stefano and now Sam no matter what they have to say.  They have earned my 
>respect.  That does NOT mean I WILL follow them, only that I will try to understand 
>what they are saying.  They tend to be right a lot of the time.  With that said I 
>also must say that sometimes I completely disagree with Jon, but that is my right as 
>well.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of 
> > Jakarta? If a project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, 
> > the list dies or something like this, does it die away from 
> > Jakarta too?
> 
> What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with something that has 
>no activity?  Should Jserv die because the last release was forever ago?  I think 
>not.  Jserv is a production server that lives in many production sites.  Try finding 
>a java web hoster that uses something other than Jserv.
> 
> What is your patch to the problem?
> 
> Looking forward to your PATCH.
> 
> Scott Sanders
> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Mvh,
> > Endre
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> > additional commands, 
> > e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO.  I think that JAMES could
become an Exchange killer :)

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, "Jeff Prickett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I 
> think that I 
> > have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these 
> > sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally 
> > started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They 
> > started in Turbine.
> 
> And they still are in Turbine.  They are "subsections" of 
> Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community.  We have 
> the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects.
> 
> > 
> > One reason calendar died is because, there is no community 
> around it. 
> > It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a 
> > developer with calendar this time is to get more people 
> involved. It 
> > is not that easy.
> > 
> 
> I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project.  
> Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went 
> back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like 
> -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in 
> Velocity, and - in Avalon)
> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...
> 
> 
> --
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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Just my two cents worth. ..  don't freeze your vision.  Have one (we
have a very general one for POI plus some very specific ones for each
release), but you have to allow people to come in and say "I want this
by 2.0" even if its a 4.0 for you.  

For example we landed a very talented developer for POI by allowing some
features I didn't think were very important in our next release (they
turned out to be more important then I realized but thats a long
story).  He's now involved in far more than what his original plan was. 
Its also a strategic advantage to have someone working tomorrow while
I'm sleeping (he's an Aussie).

I try and constantly say "Okay here is the release vision as I
understand it to date" for the next 2 or so releases regularly to keep
it constantly discussed.  

You have to remember opensource is very fluid.  You can't *nail* it down
the way you can other projects.  The best way to do this is just release
as often as possible.  This will make people button up code *for the
release* including yourself.

Some folks will come in with the new features long before you're ready
for them.  MS doesn't have that because they fire those people ;-).  I
figure if one guy wants it bad enough to do it himself, then probably a
hundred want it almost bad enough ;-).

Keep user needs in perspective.  Users are your future development
community and are really an undervalued commodity in open source
projects.  I realize (theres a whole paragraph on this on one of the
jakarta who we are pages), that having a bazillion users isn't as big of
a deal as it is to a commercial project, but it sure as heck helps.  Its
also a wicked career incentive (that I didn't even realize) for
developers on the project.

Lastly, highlight the heck out of the accomplishments of the developers
on the project.  Don't suck all the limelight.  Avoid it like the
plauge, you'll get yours.  (yours may be a barrage of poorly expressed
emails where you quickly diagnose the problem as a mater of failure to
meet the relative intelligence requirements, but you'll get yours ;-)
).  This advice is for everyone on the project ;-).  (great positive
spiral dontcha think).

Anyhow thats my opinion.

-Andy

On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 12:33, Jeff Prickett wrote:
> Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> > 
> > In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer
> > community?
> > 
> 
> I know what does not nuture a development environment.
> 1. Working in a vacuum and hoping someone magically finds out.
> 2. Mispresenting (Intentionally or Unintentionally) the status of the
> project.
> 3. Not having a clear vision of what features we want to see and when.
> 
> Actually, I am going to put my flame suit on before I say this, but I
> was reading an MS Press book by Jim McCarthy (VC++ manager) called
> Dynamics of Software Development. He outlines 50 some odd "rules" of
> software development.
> 
> One rule is to have a Multi-release technology plan. Its just a big word
> for a document that outlines which features will be available in what
> release or in what time frame. Ideally, this document should have the
> buy in of the whole development team.
> 
> I think what Mr. McCarthy is trying to do with the Multi-Release plan is
> to create Vision. Great communities development or otherwise share a
> common vision.
> 
> The multi-release technology plan serves two purposes. It establishes a
> vision and then breaks it down into a set of smaller steps which are
> easier and less frustrating to accomplish.
> 
> When I have a community of developers around icalendar. I am going to
> borrow a page from the MS playbook and create a Multi-release technology
> plan.
> 
> > --
> > Ceki
> > 
> > > It is very easy to monday-morning quaterback and second guess the
> > > decisions that were made in the distant past with perfect 20-20
> > > hindsight.  Some might even find it amusing to single out some of the
> > > participants and try to act as the judge, jury, and executioner of
> > > that person's reputation in the court of public opinion.
> > >
> 
> It is easy to play Monday morning quarterback. One of the reasons I
> stayed away so long was the initial dread of trying to explain what had
> happened (why I "quit", why iCalendar had
> failed).
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Prickett
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Scott Sanders


Comments inline...

> -Original Message-
> From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:02 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
> 
> 
> 
> | What's the point?
> |
> | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS 
> | repositories.
> |
> | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?
> 
> Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what 
> Jakarta is all about. "Browsing" it.. Reading about all the 
> cool technologies that's in there.

SUBMIT A PATCH!!!

> 
> |
> | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's 
> something we 
> | need to address on the website, I think.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> |
> |
> | > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that 
> he'll make a 
> | > nice, thight, _small_ little library, it seems like 
> getting it into 
> | > Jakarta just takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
> |
> | No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, 
> | Commons and a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  
> | That's it.
> 
> I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy 
> to get a project accepted at Jakarta if you already have 
> "some control" over the community.

Not really, there are guidelines, and that is but one.

> 
> 
> [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of
> | jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the 
> right way, 
> | BTW.
> 
> I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now..
> 
> People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude 
> if they ask whether this or that project could 
> interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, while people (or.. Jon?) 
> on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me stuffing this 
> little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes 
> response time, it's now in place."

What did jon stuff into the top level?  Do you understand that ECS is on of the OLDEST 
projects here at Jakarta, that was started with Jserv at java.apache.org, and moved to 
jakarta to avoid trademark issues with the java name?  No one just stuffed it in.  
Where you here when this happened?  I have been lurking in the java-apache space since 
early 1998, and I can say that the community back then was MUCH smaller.

> 
> | > While if fantastically cool projects
> | > that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about 
> impossible.
> |
> | Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.
> 
> How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? 
> And how much more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to 
> go through, compared to ECS?

That is up to the person you ask.  Someone from Avalon would probably say Avalon is 
most important.  I would actually say that ANT is the most important.  I am not even a 
committer there.  Others would say Tomcat.  Even others from the old days would say 
that Jserv is the most important.  Point is that nothing is 'cooler' than anything 
else, only on a person by person basis.

> 
> | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?
> 
> BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.

Are they not in?  I think that they are :)

> 
> | > (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than 
> | > everybody elses.)
> |
> | Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...
> 
> I know.

Because he has actually been involved here pratically forever!!!  I will always hear 
Jon, Pier, Stefano and now Sam no matter what they have to say.  They have earned my 
respect.  That does NOT mean I WILL follow them, only that I will try to understand 
what they are saying.  They tend to be right a lot of the time.  With that said I also 
must say that sometimes I completely disagree with Jon, but that is my right as well.

> 
> 
> As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of 
> Jakarta? If a project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, 
> the list dies or something like this, does it die away from 
> Jakarta too?

What would you like to see happen?  Should we wipe the site with something that has no 
activity?  Should Jserv die because the last release was forever ago?  I think not.  
Jserv is a production server that lives in many production sites.  Try finding a java 
web hoster that uses something other than Jserv.

What is your patch to the problem?

Looking forward to your PATCH.

Scott Sanders

> 
> -- 
> Mvh,
> Endre
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jeff Prickett

Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> 
> In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer
> community?
> 

I know what does not nuture a development environment.
1. Working in a vacuum and hoping someone magically finds out.
2. Mispresenting (Intentionally or Unintentionally) the status of the
project.
3. Not having a clear vision of what features we want to see and when.

Actually, I am going to put my flame suit on before I say this, but I
was reading an MS Press book by Jim McCarthy (VC++ manager) called
Dynamics of Software Development. He outlines 50 some odd "rules" of
software development.

One rule is to have a Multi-release technology plan. Its just a big word
for a document that outlines which features will be available in what
release or in what time frame. Ideally, this document should have the
buy in of the whole development team.

I think what Mr. McCarthy is trying to do with the Multi-Release plan is
to create Vision. Great communities development or otherwise share a
common vision.

The multi-release technology plan serves two purposes. It establishes a
vision and then breaks it down into a set of smaller steps which are
easier and less frustrating to accomplish.

When I have a community of developers around icalendar. I am going to
borrow a page from the MS playbook and create a Multi-release technology
plan.

> --
> Ceki
> 
> > It is very easy to monday-morning quaterback and second guess the
> > decisions that were made in the distant past with perfect 20-20
> > hindsight.  Some might even find it amusing to single out some of the
> > participants and try to act as the judge, jury, and executioner of
> > that person's reputation in the court of public opinion.
> >

It is easy to play Monday morning quarterback. One of the reasons I
stayed away so long was the initial dread of trying to explain what had
happened (why I "quit", why iCalendar had
failed).

Jeff Prickett

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik


On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

| Endre, you clearly have a personal bias against me. If you would like to
| continue to express it, you are free to do so. However, your complete lack
| of contributions around here, other than expressing your bias against me, is
| making you look like a baboon. Put up or shut up.

Take it as a voice from the oppressed people (especially newcomers, that
is) which don't dare to talk out loud! And from the potential, maybe even
cool, new projects which could have benefitted both the "customers" and
the developers of Jakarta, but which won't ever try to come here because
of the hostile environment which some persons make...

,)

| p.s. If you are ever in Berkeley, I would be more than happy to buy you
| dinner.

Cool, thanks! Call me if you come to Norway!
  (I studied a year ('99/'00) at UCSB. I actually have some friends
("people I know" ;) up there, so maybe it'll even happen! ;)


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: possibly bug with tomcat 4 vs oracle 8.1.7 ??

2002-01-29 Thread Craig R. McClanahan




On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Giovanni Zorzan wrote:

> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:17:00 +0100
> From: Giovanni Zorzan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: possibly bug with tomcat 4 vs oracle 8.1.7 ??
>
> we try to use JDBCStore against a Oracle 8i database.
> the connection works (and tomcat insert some rows into table session), but
> in the log we have seen this:
>

This is a posting that should be directed to the TOMCAT-USER list, not
here -- subscription information, as well as documentation on what each
mailing list is for, can be found at:

  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html

Craig McClanahan


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 8:52 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sometimes the reasons an implementation is lousy (or at least, not
> appropriate for the task at hand) are non-technical.  Freemarker was a
> wonderful idea with a GPL implementation.  Hence velocity was born.

Just to be clear...

s/freemarker/webmacro/

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/differences.html

-jon


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 1/29/02 4:42 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> | Example?  Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback.
> 
> At least heavy from Jon, as I remember it.

I wasn't about to accept a half assed proposal. Is there anything wrong with
that?

The POI team took our feedback, re-worked things and re-submitted their
proposal. As a result, I was also one of the first people to vote +1 to
their new proposal. I give that team major props for not taking things
personally and simply improving their game. You might be able to learn
something from them.

Endre, you clearly have a personal bias against me. If you would like to
continue to express it, you are free to do so. However, your complete lack
of contributions around here, other than expressing your bias against me, is
making you look like a baboon. Put up or shut up.

p.s. If you are ever in Berkeley, I would be more than happy to buy you
dinner.

thanks,

-jon

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Sam Ruby

Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
> In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer
> community?

To paraphrase Stefano Mazzocchi (only because I can't locate the exact
words via Google at the moment) - a wonderful idea with a lousy
implementation.  Any other permutations of those two don't seem to work.  ;
-)

Tomcat and Ant met both of these criterias at the time they became
subprojects of Jakarta.  Oro and Regexp sprung to life fully formed, not
leaving enough of an itch to be scratched, so have gathered less attention.
In retrospect, people found alternatives that are more appealing than
constructing HTML element by element within your Java programs.

Sometimes the reasons an implementation is lousy (or at least, not
appropriate for the task at hand) are non-technical.  Freemarker was a
wonderful idea with a GPL implementation.  Hence velocity was born.

I can name other, more recent, examples why there is duplication within
Jakarta along these lines.  But in most cases, the angers have not cooled,
so bringing up these examples would be more of a distraction than help
address your question.

- Sam Ruby

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possibly bug with tomcat 4 vs oracle 8.1.7 ??

2002-01-29 Thread Giovanni Zorzan


we try to use JDBCStore against a Oracle 8i database.
the connection works (and tomcat insert some rows into table session), but 
in the log we have seen this:

2002-01-29 16:47:42 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Stopping
2002-01-29 16:47:42 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Saving 1 persisted sessions
2002-01-29 16:47:43 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Removing Session 
7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 at database tomcat_sessions
2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: writeObject() storing 
session 7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385
2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   storing attribute 
'SesCategory' with value 'F'
2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   storing attribute 
'poolname' with value 'forum'
2002-01-29 16:47:43 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   storing attribute 
'sezione' with value 'aziende'
2002-01-29 16:47:43 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Saving Session 
7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 to database tomcat_sessions
2002-01-29 16:47:54 WebappLoader[/lumetel]: Deploying class repositories to 
work directory /var/tomcat4/work/als.lumetel.it/lumetel
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Starting
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Force random number 
initialization starting
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Seeding random number 
generator class java.security.SecureRandom
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Seeding of random number 
generator has been completed
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Getting message digest 
component for algorithm MD5
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Completed getting message 
digest component
2002-01-29 16:47:54 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Force random number 
initialization completed
2002-01-29 16:47:54 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: The database connection is null or 
was found to be closed. Trying to re-open it.
2002-01-29 16:47:56 ContextConfig[/lumetel]: Configured an authenticator 
for method FORM
2002-01-29 16:47:56 StandardWrapper[/lumetel:default]: Loading container 
servlet default
2002-01-29 16:47:56 default: init
2002-01-29 16:47:56 StandardWrapper[/lumetel:invoker]: Loading container 
servlet invoker
2002-01-29 16:47:56 invoker: init
2002-01-29 16:47:56 jsp: init
2002-01-29 16:48:32 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Removing Session 
67C3B5C895E57191C54860B35775C3B9 at database tomcat_sessions
2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: readObject() loading 
session 7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385
2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   loading attribute 
'SesCategory' with value 'F'
2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   loading attribute 
'poolname' with value 'forum'
2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]:   loading attribute 
'sezione' with value 'aziende'
2002-01-29 16:48:32 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: Loading Session 
7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 from database tomcat_sessions
2002-01-29 16:48:32 PersistentManager[/lumetel]: Swapping session 
7854023989A8A7D1F265633805523385 in from Store
2002-01-29 16:48:33 jsp: init
2002-01-29 16:48:33 jsp: init
2002-01-29 16:48:55 JDBCStore[/lumetel]: SQL Error java.sql.SQLException: 
ORA-00979: not a GROUP BY expression

with toad (oracle tool) we have seen that the last line is caused  by:

SELECT
   COUNT(s.session_id),
   s.session_id
FROM
   tomcat_sessions s,
   tomcat_sessions c GROUP BY c.session_id

the error is in group by expression; the "group by" element must be in the 
select list. For us the correct sintax is:

SELECT
   COUNT(s.session_id),
   s.session_id
FROM
   tomcat_sessions s,
   tomcat_sessions c GROUP BY s.session_id

thank you for your time!



 []-[Giovanni Zorzan ]-[]
 []-[ Agenzia Lumetel Scrl ]-[]
 []-[  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   ]-[]

Re: FAQ-o-matic down at least since yesterday...

2002-01-29 Thread dIon Gillard


Looks like one of those easy to debug, not-java Velocity things :)

I'm no good on it

Paulo Gaspar wrote:

>4 complains and counting!
>
>Can someone take care of this?
>
>
>Have fun,
>Paulo Gaspar
>


-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Ceki Gulcu


In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer
community?  

--
Ceki

> It is very easy to monday-morning quaterback and second guess the
> decisions that were made in the distant past with perfect 20-20
> hindsight.  Some might even find it amusing to single out some of the
> participants and try to act as the judge, jury, and executioner of
> that person's reputation in the court of public opinion.
> 
> But doing any of this is not terribly constructive.
> 
> Building a community is hard work.  It doesn't happen according to a
> time schedule.  The code base that a community choses to form around
> may have more to do with timing, the demeaner of the participants,
> better alternatives not being very well publicized, or even dumb luck
> rather than technical merit.
> 
> But in the long run, the code base with the strongest community
> generally emerges as the one with the most viability.  And in the
> process will tend to gather those important secondary characteristics
> that we all value: quality, robustness, and a large user base.
> 
> - Sam Ruby

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Sam Ruby

Jeff Prickett wrote:
>
> One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It
> was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a
> developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is
> not that easy.

+1

It is very easy to monday-morning quaterback and second guess the decisions
that were made in the distant past with perfect 20-20 hindsight.  Some
might even find it amusing to single out some of the participants and try
to act as the judge, jury, and executioner of that person's reputation in
the court of public opinion.

But doing any of this is not terribly constructive.

Building a community is hard work.  It doesn't happen according to a time
schedule.  The code base that a community choses to form around may have
more to do with timing, the demeaner of the participants, better
alternatives not being very well publicized, or even dumb luck rather than
technical merit.

But in the long run, the code base with the strongest community generally
emerges as the one with the most viability.  And in the process will tend
to gather those important secondary characteristics that we all value:
quality, robustness, and a large user base.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.


On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, "Jeff Prickett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I
> have a point to
> make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off
> from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same
> is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine.

And they still are in Turbine.  They are "subsections" of Turbine that are
managed by the Turbine community.  We have the same thing in Velocity with
the DVSL and -tools projects.

> 
> One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It
> was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a
> developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is
> not that easy.
> 

I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project.  Would starting
to get a core community be easier if you went back to Jetspeed and made it a
subproject there (like -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl,
-tools in Velocity, and - in Avalon)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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FAQ-o-matic down at least since yesterday...

2002-01-29 Thread Paulo Gaspar


4 complains and counting!

Can someone take care of this?


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: FAQs web page
>
>
> It seems that the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic is having problems.  It
> retrieves a Java
> error so I thought I would mention it in case you were not aware of it.  I
> noticed it this past weekend and it's still having a problem.
>
> I found the link to it at this page :
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
>
> Which points to
> ->http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaq
> s/action/SetAll/project_id/2
>
> Not sure if the link is incorrect or some other issue.
>
> __
> Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca
>



> -Original Message-
> From: Brumer, Haim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: faq o matic
>
>
> Hi,
>
> please fix the faq-o-matic (Jakarta).  I need info and the faq
> has been down for over a wk.
>
> thanks,
> haim
>



> -Original Message-
> From: Chanoch Wiggers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:53 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject:
>
>
> there seems to be a major problem with the faqomatic link on
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
>
> which leads to the following:
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/
> action/Set
> All/project_id/2
>
>
> which gives class not found exception copied in below. Hope this helps...
>
> chanoch
>
> technical editor
> wrox press ltd
>
>
> Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648)
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158)
> at
> org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d
> oPerform(D
> efaultSessionValidator.java:101)
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91)
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119)
> at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A
> pplication
> FilterChain.java:247)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati
> onFilterCh
> ain.java:193)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp
> erValve.ja
> va:243)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte
> xtValve.ja
> va:201)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv
> e.java:164
> )
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat
> cherValve.
> java:170)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 64)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv
> e.java:170
> )
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 64)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine
> Valve.java
> :163)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce
> ssor.java:
> 1011)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor
> .java:1106
> )
> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
>



-Original Message-
From: Valerio Gruppo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: page ERROR - problel with FAQ link



http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/action/Set
All/project_id/2

it doesnt work!!!



Exception: java.lan

Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jeff Prickett


"Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote:
> 
> On 1/29/02 7:02 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > | What's the point?
> > |
> > | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories.
> > |
> > | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?
> >
> > Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all
> > about. "Browsing" it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in
> > there.
> >
> > |
> > | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need
> > | to address on the website, I think.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> 
> Good.  We agree :)
> 
> > |
> > |
> > | > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
> > | > thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
> > | > takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
> > |
> > | No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and
> > | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  That's it.
> >
> > I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a
> > project accepted at Jakarta if you already have "some control" over the
> > community.
> 
> Example?  Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback.
> 
> 
> >
> > [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of
> > | jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the right way,
> > | BTW.
> >
> > I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now..
> >
> > People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask
> > whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta,
> > while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me
> > stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes
> > response time, it's now in place."
> 
> Can you offer an example?
> 
> > | > While if fantastically cool projects
> > | > that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible.
> > |
> > | Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.
> >
> > How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much
> > more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to
> > ECS?
> 
> Don't know about ECS - that was something from java.apache.org days, I
> think, and I suspect just grandfathered in.
> 
> Seems right to me.
> 
> And I am not saying that because I am a jakarta guy, or Jon is my friend, or
> anything like that.
> 
> In the evolution of Jakarta, java.apache.org came before - it makes sense to
> keep the continuity.
> 
> > | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?
> >
> > BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.
> 
> Both are in...  What is the argument again?
> 
> 
> > | > (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than
> > | > everybody elses.)
> > |
> > | Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...
> >
> > I know.
> >
> >
> > As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of Jakarta? If a
> > project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something
> > like this, does it die away from Jakarta too?
> 
> It seems to - look at the calendar project :)
> 

As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I
have a point to
make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off
from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same
is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine.

One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It
was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a
developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is
not that easy.

Thanks
Jeff Prickett



> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "We will be judged not by the monuments we build, but by the monuments we
> destroy" - Ada Louise Huxtable
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


Just my opinion.  If you have an ax to grind, lets see some patches. 
Now that the front page has the pretty table with categories I
understand it a lot better and think you're issue is yesterday's issue. 
Writing good project websites is inherently hard.  Its hard for POI...it
should be 10x harder for Jakarta.

What I think would be cool is a page with some "Apache Solutions
Examples" where we get folks to send in how/where they used a bunch of
Apache stuff (including XML/HTTPD/JAKARTA) in a project.  Draw some
pretty diagrams and have the diagrams link back to the projects.

Show how the projects fit together to solve particular problem areas.  

I needed a webpage with a search engine, index my XLS files so I did:
Apache->Tomcat->Lucene->POI, or I needed to replace my $10k Actuate
e-reporting system with something maintainable that didn't require
$500/hr consultants so I installed Apache->Tomcat->Cocoon->POI ... etc
etc.  Put up pretty diagrams etc.  Call it "Apache Software In Use!"

Unfortunately, having no artistic skill whatsoever I can't contribute to
the heart of this...the pretty diagrams...so I'll shut up now ;-)

-Andy

On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 07:02, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> 
> | What's the point?
> |
> | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories.
> |
> | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?
> 
> Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all
> about. "Browsing" it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in
> there.
> 
> |
> | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need
> | to address on the website, I think.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> |
> |
> | > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
> | > thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
> | > takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
> |
> | No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and
> | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  That's it.
> 
> I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a
> project accepted at Jakarta if you already have "some control" over the
> community.
> 
> 
> [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of
> | jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the right way,
> | BTW.
> 
> I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now..
> 
> People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask
> whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta,
> while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me
> stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes
> response time, it's now in place."
> 
> | > While if fantastically cool projects
> | > that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible.
> |
> | Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.
> 
> How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much
> more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to
> ECS?
> 
> | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?
> 
> BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.
> 
> | > (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than
> | > everybody elses.)
> |
> | Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...
> 
> I know.
> 
> 
> As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of Jakarta? If a
> project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something
> like this, does it die away from Jakarta too?
> 
> -- 
> Mvh,
> Endre
> 
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Danny Angus


I'm not sure what to make of this discussion, except this, why would anyone
expect a loose OS project like jakarta to be well organised, methodical and
fair?
Life's not fair, and bearing in mind that everyone involved has to do
"something else" to earn a crust and spare time when they can for jakarta, I
think its a wonderous miracle that jakarta works at all, let alone bears
such rich fruit.
So there :-)

d.


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik



You soon got me cornered here now..!

| > | > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
| > | > thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
| > | > takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
| > |
| > | No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and
| > | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  That's it.
| >
| > I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a
| > project accepted at Jakarta if you already have "some control" over the
| > community.
|
| Example?  Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback.

At least heavy from Jon, as I remember it.


| > People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask
| > whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta,
| > while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me
| > stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes
| > response time, it's now in place."
|
| Can you offer an example?

I tried to find information on some of the projects pages, but it didn't
say "this project was initiaded by".. So I guess I have to search a lot of
archives to find authoriative sources.

Velocity? ECS? (I'm not quite sure..) vs. BCEL and POI.

| > | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?
| >
| > BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.
|
| Both are in...  What is the argument again?

The hassle and noise.

  The problem are all the cool projects that don't bother to get hassled
and rejected by Jon or other community members, so they don't even send
the "are you interested?" email to this list..

Jakarta could be an even more important community than it is.

| > As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of Jakarta? If a
| > project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something
| > like this, does it die away from Jakarta too?
|
| It seems to - look at the calendar project :)

My idea is that if projects are accepted if they have such and such big
community and committed coders and what not, then they should also
probably be "de-cepted" if they loose these requirements.

The difference between Apache and "the others" are that you know that
Apache and Jakarta projects are good, because there are stringent
requirements to be such a project.

That doesn't mean that Apache couldn't have a whole bunch more of projects
going, as long as they were managed quite thight.

 ( I don't know if things have changed, but e.g. last time I tried JMeter,
it didn't live up to what it said it would. Maybe a project shouldn't be
on the page before it lived up to the "Apache standard", which is "the
best stuff available". Maybe there shouldn't be beta stuff available on
the front page at all, you'd have to go to another page to find things
that are in development..? )

Well.. I don't know if I have much more to say now.
  Geir, you're probably right, I'm just full of crap right now... I just
got frustrated when reading the front page of Jakarta, reading about the
small (unimportant, in my view) ECS there, while remembering all the
hassle those other poor bastards, with those other cool projects, had to
go through to get accepted to Jakarta..


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.


On 1/29/02 7:02 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> | What's the point?
> |
> | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories.
> |
> | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?
> 
> Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all
> about. "Browsing" it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in
> there.
> 
> |
> | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need
> | to address on the website, I think.
> 
> Yes.
> 

Good.  We agree :)

> |
> |
> | > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
> | > thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
> | > takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
> |
> | No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and
> | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  That's it.
> 
> I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a
> project accepted at Jakarta if you already have "some control" over the
> community.

Example?  Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback.

 
> 
> [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of
> | jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the right way,
> | BTW.
> 
> I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now..
> 
> People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask
> whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta,
> while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me
> stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes
> response time, it's now in place."

Can you offer an example?
 
> | > While if fantastically cool projects
> | > that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible.
> |
> | Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.
> 
> How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much
> more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to
> ECS?

Don't know about ECS - that was something from java.apache.org days, I
think, and I suspect just grandfathered in.

Seems right to me.

And I am not saying that because I am a jakarta guy, or Jon is my friend, or
anything like that.

In the evolution of Jakarta, java.apache.org came before - it makes sense to
keep the continuity.


> | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?
> 
> BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.

Both are in...  What is the argument again?

 
> | > (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than
> | > everybody elses.)
> |
> | Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...
> 
> I know.
> 
> 
> As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of Jakarta? If a
> project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something
> like this, does it die away from Jakarta too?

It seems to - look at the calendar project :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"We will be judged not by the monuments we build, but by the monuments we
destroy" - Ada Louise Huxtable


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik



| What's the point?
|
| They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories.
|
| Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?

Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all
about. "Browsing" it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in
there.

|
| That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need
| to address on the website, I think.

Yes.

|
|
| > 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
| > thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
| > takes a cvs commit. Even top level.
|
| No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and
| a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  That's it.

I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a
project accepted at Jakarta if you already have "some control" over the
community.


[..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of
| jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the right way,
| BTW.

I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now..

People from "the outside" is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask
whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta,
while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says "yo, dudes, what about me
stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?".. "Ok, that's 5 minutes
response time, it's now in place."

| > While if fantastically cool projects
| > that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible.
|
| Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.

How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much
more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to
ECS?

| What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?

BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here.

| > (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than
| > everybody elses.)
|
| Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...

I know.


As a complement to this: how is the "deprecating" system of Jakarta? If a
project "dies", that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something
like this, does it die away from Jakarta too?

-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.

On 1/29/02 6:32 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A bit to flame-baitish, yes yes..
> 
> 
> But there are two things in that mail:
> 
> 1) Why not do some grouping of the projects in Jakarta?
> 
> ( 1b) Maybe not all projects in Jakarta are of the identical importance?

Well, not sure if it's 'importance'.  I think the smallest suggestion to the
README.txt of the smallest unofficial commons-sandbox component deserves the
same respect as any other contribution.

We recognize that there is a distinction between 'top level projects' and
things that aren't - that was part of the motivation for the Jakarta Commons
project.  However, that's just packaging and community organization -
nothing about 'rank'.

> I would suppose that the most important project of Jakarta is Tomcat.

Maybe at one point.  And most likely now also, given whatever metric you
judge it by - such as # of downloads, traffic on lists, etc.  But times
change ;)

> After that there is definately a lot to argue about, so why not instead
> try to group the projects a bit. I see that some work is done with the
> "frontpage", but the "directory" should also have some tune-over.)

What's the point?

They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories.

Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve?

That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need
to address on the website, I think.

> 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
> thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
> takes a cvs commit. Even top level.

No way.  I'm a guy in Jakarta.  I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and
a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC.  That's it.

I can offer patches to any of the others, but like anyone else, I need to
demonstrate interest, commitment, and competence before the community grants
me commit privs to their CVS.  It's up to the individual community.  It
helps that I am an existing jakarta guy - it shows that I 'get it' when it
comes to the Jakarta-way (or other people think I do :)

One of my responsibilities as a PMC member is covering Jmeter (for licensing
and community issues), and I have no commit rights there - I am just another
list lurker...  The point is that even as part of the 'management committee'
of jakarta, I have no special privs.  And I think that is the right way,
BTW.

> While if fantastically cool projects
> that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible.

Come on.  This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI.

(And as I thought we were large enough before POI, we are certainly large
enough now :)

What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in?

> 
> (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than
> everybody elses.)

Nope.  Some of us just tend to listen to him...

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik


On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

| on 1/29/02 12:31 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| > How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be
| > at the top level of Jakarta?
| >
| > Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it.
| >
| > WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta?
| > Ever heard of "grouping", "trees" and things like this? Could be useful..
| >
| > Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose.
| >
|
| 
|
| Relevant quotes:
|
| "Those with the most opinions tend to contribute the least code."

;)

|
| "Users believe that "open source" == "change it to do what I want". "

;)

|
| "The person who does [sic] the work gets to decide."

;)

A bit to flame-baitish, yes yes..


But there are two things in that mail:

1) Why not do some grouping of the projects in Jakarta?

  ( 1b) Maybe not all projects in Jakarta are of the identical importance?
I would suppose that the most important project of Jakarta is Tomcat.
After that there is definately a lot to argue about, so why not instead
try to group the projects a bit. I see that some work is done with the
"frontpage", but the "directory" should also have some tune-over.)

2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice,
thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just
takes a cvs commit. Even top level. While if fantastically cool projects
that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible.

 (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than
everybody elses.)


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 2:41 AM, "Stephane Bailliez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> While we are at it, if some committers to regexp read this. I submitted a
> patch to make iterator works (they never did) more than a year ago and they
> never get in
> 
> cc to regexp-dev
> 
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-regexp-user&m=98208476024456&w=2
> 
> Stephane

Then nominate yourself for commit status and do it yourself.

-jon


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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens


on 1/29/02 12:31 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be
> at the top level of Jakarta?
> 
> Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it.
> 
> WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta?
> Ever heard of "grouping", "trees" and things like this? Could be useful..
> 
> Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose.
> 



Relevant quotes:

"Those with the most opinions tend to contribute the least code."

"Users believe that "open source" == "change it to do what I want". "

"The person who does [sic] the work gets to decide."

-jon


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RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Stephane Bailliez


> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Lenz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

[...]
> I think that 
> especially the Jakarta Regexp package would be a good 
> candidate for migrating 
> into Jakarta-Commons, considering its size and common use 
> across many projects. 
> I'm neither a contributor nor a direct user of the Regexp 
> package, but exposing 
> it as a sub-project on the same level as Turbine, Tomcat, 
> Struts etc. does 
> indeed seem a bit too much. Just a thought.

While we are at it, if some committers to regexp read this. I submitted a
patch to make iterator works (they never did) more than a year ago and they
never get in

cc to regexp-dev

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-regexp-user&m=98208476024456&w=2

Stephane

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread dIon Gillard


Endre Stølsvik wrote:

>How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be
>at the top level of Jakarta?
>
>Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it.
>
>WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta?
>Ever heard of "grouping", "trees" and things like this? Could be useful..
>
>Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose.
>
Why not submit a proposal rather than moaning?

-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Christopher Lenz

29.01.2002 09:31:16, Endre Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be
>at the top level of Jakarta?
>
>Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it.
>
>WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta?
>Ever heard of "grouping", "trees" and things like this? Could be useful..
>
>Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose.

Even though the tone of this mail is totally inappropriate... I think that 
especially the Jakarta Regexp package would be a good candidate for migrating 
into Jakarta-Commons, considering its size and common use across many projects. 
I'm neither a contributor nor a direct user of the Regexp package, but exposing 
it as a sub-project on the same level as Turbine, Tomcat, Struts etc. does 
indeed seem a bit too much. Just a thought.

-chris
___
 /=/ cmlenz at gmx.de

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Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.

On 1/29/02 3:31 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be
> at the top level of Jakarta?
> 
> Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it.
> 
> WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta?
> Ever heard of "grouping", "trees" and things like this? Could be useful..
> 
> Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose.
> 

I think this is almost a textbook troll  'Almost' because I have
sympathetic feelings (not about ECS, but about scope creep...)

Even if we grouped them, ECS would still be a top level project - it would
just then be a top level project in a group.

A little progress *has* been made in this area - Ted did group the projects
into buckets on the Jakarta home page, which might help people trying to
figure out what we are about...

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Now what do we do?"

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ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??

2002-01-29 Thread Endre Stølsvik


How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be
at the top level of Jakarta?

Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it.

WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta?
Ever heard of "grouping", "trees" and things like this? Could be useful..

Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose.


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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