Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Hi, On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 00:18, Owen Gunden wrote: Is this reply any harder to read than yours was? For short messages, Of course not. bottom posting still makes at least as much sense as top posting. Yep, 100% agree. It's all up to personal preference.. James -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Hi, On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 02:46, Christopher Fisk wrote: bandwidth. Figure if you trim 10k worth of a message off it doesn't sound like much, but you get a mailing list with 1000 members, you have saved the mailing list provider 10MB worth of transfer for that one message. Won't somebody think of the dialup modem users? :) -- BOFH Excuse #191: Just type 'mv * /dev/null'. Hehe, 'rm -rf * ~' .. oops .. :) James -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
I think you have missed the point. I am objecting to the list nazi like saying EVERYBODY MUST BOTTOM POST OR ELSE! attitude. The way I read my mail is the way that suits me. Fine, I am not telling you to top post, but to trim your mail so I can read it without having to scroll down to the bottom. Hence, if you dont trim it, I am not going to bother reading it. As far as you not wanting me and others to top post, same deal, if you dont like it, /dev/null me and the rest of the world: HOWEVER dont tell me I have to type my email in a fashion that I find objectionable because you have a personnel preference. As I said before: live and let live, dont become a list Nazi! If you really hate us that much, why haven't you written a program that goes through a mail list and reorganises the messages so you can read them in the style you like? - actually, this might be a good project ... To add, I use evolution and get more than 200 emails a day at the moment. I have only a short time to sped on messages, and if I cannot see the anything interesting to cause me to scroll down, I dont bother. Email clients like pine and mutt which I have to use on occasion dont give me the multi-window, graphical view I like, so I gave up on them when evolution became usable. To say again, live and let live - dont force yours views on others End this thread BillK On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 09:29, Zack Gilburd wrote: On Tuesday 24 June 2003 16:28, William Kenworthy wrote: Bottom posting that are not very severely trimmed /dev/null -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
* On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 20:00:45 +0800, William Kenworthy wrote: I think you have missed the point. I am objecting to the list nazi like saying EVERYBODY MUST BOTTOM POST OR ELSE! attitude. [...] As I said before: live and let live, dont become a list Nazi! This is so poor. You triggered Godwin. You lose. Regards, Jens -- Nice boy, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice. -- Foghorn Leghorn -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Spundun Bhatt wrote: Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. That is why you do inline posting, delete what you aren't replying to and just reply to the parts as you get to them. Christopher Fisk -- Leela: That aerosal head spray makes your antenna smell nice... Bender: Thank you. Leela: ...but it's doing long-term damage to the planet. Bender: So? It's not like it's the only one we've got. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Peter McCracken wrote: And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. I don't think bottom posting is the best way. In-Line posting is most often mentioned as the way to go. You reply to what you are reading right after it is written. This is good for multiple reasons. You can jump into the conversation at anytime and know what is going on, Mailing list web archives are much easier to get information out of, and when inline posting you usually are better about trimming messages, which saves bandwidth. Figure if you trim 10k worth of a message off it doesn't sound like much, but you get a mailing list with 1000 members, you have saved the mailing list provider 10MB worth of transfer for that one message. Christopher Fisk -- BOFH Excuse #191: Just type 'mv * /dev/null'. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Peter McCracken wrote: And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. I don't think bottom posting is the best way. In-Line posting is most often mentioned as the way to go. You reply to what you are reading right Just thought I'd add my 2cents worth (inline of course, well bottom as I've cut everything else off). I think there is a rare reason to top post, and usually not in this type of venue.. Sometimes you may have a thought that is slightly related but doesn't fit totally with the thread (perhaps you've skewed off into lala land a bit) but still somewhat tenously related. I have in the past top posted, as well as inline when I couldn't find an appropriate place to put the comment. But I only ever do that when on limited lists or personal correspondence.. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 16:28, William Kenworthy wrote: Bottom posting that are not very severely trimmed /dev/null Please understand that bottom posting in many email readers is severely painful, just as the same as top posting can be in others - there's a reason why top posting is so popular! This comes up regularly, and if memory serves me correctly, top posting is actually the more correct method by history, but not by much It can create an almost religious argument - live and let live please! You can bottom post, thats fine, just understand that many of your messages will not get read ... rant Oh dear. When I read this, I almost wanted to rip my hair out ;). I do feel that this could spark a debate of emacs vs. vim proportion (well, maybe not *that* large). However, top posting is one of *the* most annoying things I have EVER come accross. It happens WAY too frequently here (*especially* on here on the GUML) and on the LKML. I find it _much_ harder to follow a thread that has been broken by top posting. Mind you, if you have a _proper_ cleint (KMail does this beautifully), threads that have no new messages are collapsed when you switch to a certain folder, and threads with new messages are expanded. Also, your 'Goto Next Unread' button is your friend. Top posting is out of hand on this ML, IMHO. When a thread has 7 top posts in one day, it's just plain silly. You may agree with this point and be aware it happens more than infrequently on here. /rant -- Zack Gilburd http://tehunlose.com GnuPG Key ID: A79A45668240AB6C pgp0.pgp Description: signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 10:42:59PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was already suspicious that UW-IMAP could do what I wanted it to do, and now I'm even more suspicious that it will at least come close. UW is excellent for home use, but it has scaling/performance issues for heavy use. I don't expect heavy use anytime in the near future. Since all I really want is webmail + mutt, maybe what I need is a webmail client that works directly with the maildirs. I wonder if such a client exists... If you've already got Courier IMAP working, why not just install SquirrelMail and point it at your (local) IMAP server? That's exactly what I do -- works like a champ. Simply because I'm picky and I don't like the way Courier lays out the mailboxes. I /insist/ that they be stored in a sensible way in the filesystem for mutt users, and my definition of sensible doesn't include Courier's dot-heirarchy maildirs :). I'm trying to set up something similar to a site I've used before, which used IMP, UW IMAP (I think), mutt, and mbox folders. It lets you make folders directly under ~/Mail/ with mutt, and they show up nicely in IMP webmail. The two main differences between that setup and my ideal setup is that I would like to use squirrelmail and maildirs. It basically just comes down to UW's support for maildirs at this point, I think. ta, Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 02:02:15AM -0400, Owen Gunden wrote: I /insist/ that they be stored in a sensible way in the filesystem for mutt users, and my definition of sensible doesn't include Courier's dot-heirarchy maildirs :). Hmmm... You might want to at least try the following in your ~/.muttrc before you blow away courier-imap: set spoolfile=imap://localhost/INBOX set folder=imap://localhost/INBOX set imap_user=owen # or whatever mailboxes =folder1 =folder2 You might even prefer this to accessing the maildirs directly (imap support in mutt-1.5.4i is fast enough for me as long as you're accessing a fast IMAP server over the loopback interface -- it's accessing slow IMAP servers over the internet that's unbearable). I've actually started running this way at home so I don't have to remember to prefix my folders with . before tab-completing them in mutt. UW has gone to great pains to be as compatible as possible but as I said it has problems scaling. UW is the canonical reference platform, but cyrus, courier, et al are pretty feature rich and fast. UW stores things in old-style mbox files (From separated mail in a single file -- but with an adjunct database of indexes into the file to speed things up, IIRC). I used to /insist/ that everything went in /etc/rc.local but all-in-all I'm much happier doing things the gentoo way. :-) You might decide the cyrus/courier way is a little more sensible than you thought (especially when you start adding users to your server). As far as I know, UW doesn't support maildir at all -- just the folders at the same level level rather than the folders below INBOX abstraction. You can go back to UW and IMP, but I think you're going to go back to mbox in the bargain. It's not that hard to get used to. Honest. :-) Regards, -- Rex -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Hi, On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 10:18, Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote: Threading the messages is a good idea since it alleviates information overload. However, what good threaded email clients are there? So far I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? Evolution. Although the IMAP support is a bit .. strange .. but working :) James -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Hi, Not so much etiquette, more 'mob-rules'. I prefer top-posting since it means I can see, at a glance, everything some one has written. Don't need to search through a mail to find what someone wants to say. If I get kill-filed because of how I write, instead of what I write, then I'll chuckle :) James On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 11:19, Peter McCracken wrote: And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Hi, Depends if you're writing a reply like this one I guess :) For such a short reply, it's fairly plain to see where my email ends, and where the original text starts, even with fancy quote highlighting and such. Like everything else, there is a time and place for both styles. James On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 11:44, Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote: Top posted content can be disorientating and difficult to understand as the author rarely takes the time to include the relevant portions of the original message. So essentially bottom posting ensures that the author formulates the message in good form to save the reader some valuable time. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
try Sylpheed is very lightweight-fast(gtk based), threaded mail client.. ctrl+T - to switch between threeaded/non-threaded view... I liked the evolution too, but it is too heavy, probably better for Outlook ppl :) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 01:48, Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote: Threading the messages is a good idea since it alleviates information overload. However, what good threaded email clients are there? So far I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? if you use KDE, then kmail (1.5.2 at least) is fine and now has excellent IMAP support. -- Darren Davison Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 03:02, Florian Huber wrote: Hello Dhruba, On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:48:52 +0100 Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? ... I'm using sylpheed-claws (imap4 supported) as graphical MUA in X and mutt in the console/shell. If you what to use mutt you have to fetch your mail via fetchmail or getmail, which at least fetchmail should have imap support. mutt has imap support. for example i can do: start mutt, press 'c' (open mailbox), and enter: imaps://[EMAIL PROTECTED]:gentoo and i get the mails gabor -- Don't worry. I used the back of my sword. Oh, it's double-sided. Sorry. -Zelgadis, Slayers signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 gabor wrote: | | | mutt has imap support. for example i can do: | start mutt, | press 'c' (open mailbox), and enter: | imaps://[EMAIL PROTECTED]:gentoo | and i get the mails | Yes but mutt doesn't cache headers for IMAP accounts so if you plan to leave the list messages in the account (as I do my gentoo-user account has 26000 messages in it) mutt takes inordinate amounts of time to startup as it has to go and fetch the headers everytime. If it had header caching for imap accounts it would be much more viable as a imap reader. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE++Eqpw+I3MvUBM6QRAqCKAKCTAizRkhu4IXRgNTcQV7gunUR7uwCcCxDu O1lZs5i7IxFupz4lNrcsPBk= =Nn90 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, what good threaded email clients are there? Gnus (running in Xemacs). Gnus is basically a newsreader that is designed to handle large amounts of messages very well. Mail is handled through the included storage backend systems. Gnus is highly configurable and programmable. If you need a function, write a short lisp expression to implement it. If you don't like the way a function works, change it (no real need to do this!). Gnus works with graphical interface and without. Gnus is hated by most users that come from Windows :) It requires you to learn some keystrokes to work efficiently - including the Emacs editing commands. There definitely is a learning curve but it's worth to master it. To be fair: I couldn't convince my wife to use it (she hates it too). Btw.: gnus is broken with the Xemacs versions 21.4.11 and 21.4.12 in Gentoo. You have to go back to 21.4.10 if you want to use gnus. Regards, Frank -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:09:16PM +0930, James McArthur wrote: Not so much etiquette, more 'mob-rules'. I prefer top-posting since it means I can see, at a glance, everything some one has written. Don't need to search through a mail to find what someone wants to say. First of all, for anything but very simple threads, that notion is fallacy. You will have to get context for each comment. But with top posting, they are not matched up, so you have to search for each one by scanning the entirety of earlier messages. But even if you do not agree with the merits of in-line/bottom posting, if you persist in top posting where the agreed standard is bottom-posting you will wreak havoc on readability. Look what your format has done to me on this list where everyone else uses bottom-posting for replies. The next poor schmuck has to read the bottom, then the top, and then the middle! I personally get actually pissed-off about top-posters if I think about it too hard, but at work I am forced into this model by virtue of the fact that everyone uses Lotus Notes, which makes it difficult to choose another style. So I conform, since I am not going to be able to get them to switch, and _my_ posts are for THEM. On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 11:19, Peter McCracken wrote: And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. -- Richard Kilgore [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 11:21:44PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You might want to at least try the following ... Sounds like maybe I should. UW stores things in old-style mbox files (From separated mail in a single file -- but with an adjunct database of indexes into the file to speed things up, IIRC). I was afraid of that. It's not that hard to get used to. Honest. :-) Heh. I guess I should give it a shot. Thanks muchly. Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:12:13PM +0930, James McArthur wrote: Depends if you're writing a reply like this one I guess :) For such a short reply, it's fairly plain to see where my email ends, and where the original text starts, even with fancy quote highlighting and such. Like everything else, there is a time and place for both styles. Is this reply any harder to read than yours was? For short messages, bottom posting still makes at least as much sense as top posting. Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:09:30 +0100 Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spundun Bhatt wrote: Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. Here are guidelines that I follow and would encourage others to do so too. This is for general purpose reference and discussion and is not directed towards anyone in particular. General email guidelines: [ snipped ] Very sensible list, although some may prefer to forward inline. Yes, I too loathe top posting, but even worse is the habbit of not trimming posts! Sometimes five or ten levels of mailing list trailers are left in postings. This is simply disgusting. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 06:57:14AM -0600, Mike Roest wrote: Yes but mutt doesn't cache headers for IMAP accounts so if you plan to leave the list messages in the account (as I do my gentoo-user account has 26000 messages in it) mutt takes inordinate amounts of time to startup as it has to go and fetch the headers everytime. If it had header caching for imap accounts it would be much more viable as a imap reader. IMAP is the one thing that pine does better than mutt. It's not just header cacheing, imho: it's also being smarter with the IMAP protocol. If you only need the last 24 headers to draw the folder list, why ask for all 26,000? Get the 24 you need to draw the screen then collect the remainder in a background thread while the user is staring at his sceen reading mail. Brendan Cully has done yeoman's service with IMAP support in mutt -- apparently these features aren't trivial to add. Wish my coding skills were better :-) Regards, -- Rex -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
-- quoting Jens Mayer -- * On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 20:38:26 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SpamAssasin is the only non-Bayesian spam filter to consider). Recent versions of SpamAssassin in fact do have Bayesian filters implemented which can be easily (auto)trained. I'm using such a setup with SpamAssassin 2.55 at the moment and it works very well for me. yup! sorry for this maybe me too! answer, but for all of you who didn't know about how good SpamAssassin is: I use SA since ~3 months, get around 200 ham mail and around 30 spam mail / day, and only got one (1!) false positve in this 3 months. -- Mmm ... foot-long chili dog - Homer Simpson -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
-- quoting Dhruba Bandopadhyay -- General email guidelines: [snip] -- Use sigdashes (--) before your signature. little correction here: it has to be a -- (with space at the end!) for the sig... -- Mmm ... fresh batch of American balls - Homer Simpson -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello There has been much talk of using threaded email clients to read the high traffic gentoo mailing lists and also much agitation as a result of users breaking the threading by replying to existing messages to Gnus w/ Emacs of course! Since it treats all your mail like USENET groups, mailing lists work out great. Matt -- Matthew Kennedy Gentoo Linux Developer Bugs go to http://bugs.gentoo.org! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Frank Tegtmeyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, what good threaded email clients are there? Gnus (running in Xemacs). Likewise for GNU Emacs users, Gnus is distributed with Emacs. In portage there is also app-emacs/ognus which is Oort Gnus (the latest development version). Matt -- Matthew Kennedy Gentoo Linux Developer Bugs go to http://bugs.gentoo.org! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
i personally use procmail to filter on the List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail gentoo-user.gentoo.org filter int he header to another mailbox, then i use evolution at my mail client (or out look or whatever since my mail is filtered server side, it makes it really easy to use any of my machines to access my e-mail with any client that supports imap), here is my procmailrc, if you use procmail as your mta you might find this useful, e-mail me off list if yah have any questions, tho i believe this is fairly strait forward...
[start procmailrc]
LINEBUF=4096
VERBOSE=off
MAILDIR=$HOME/mail
PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
PMDIR=$HOME/.procmail
LOGFILE=$PMDIR/log
:0e
{
EXITCODE=$?
}
:0:
* ^X-Spam-Status: Yes
spam
:0:
* ^List-Id:.*gentoo-user.gentoo.org
Gentoo\ User
:0:
* ^List-Id:.*gentoo-dev.gentoo.org
Gentoo\ Developer
:0:
* ^List-Id:.*gentoo-announce.gentoo.org
Gentoo\ Announce
:0:
* ^List-Id:.*gentoo-security.gentoo.org
Gentoo\ Security
:0:
* ^List-Id: .*.*valvesoftware.com
Valve
:0:
* ^List-Id: .*.*playstation2-linux.com
Playstation2
:0:
* ^(To|From):[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Road\ Runner
:0:
* ^(To|From):[EMAIL PROTECTED]
BitchX
:0:
* ^(To|From):[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Necrophile
[end procmailrc]
--
You are old, said the youth, and your jaws are too weak For anything tougher than suet; Yet you finished the goose, with the bones and the beak -- Pray, how did you manage to do it? In my youth, said his father, I took to the law, And argued each case with my wife; And the muscular strength which it gave to my jaw, Has lasted the rest of my life. -- Lewis Carroll
--
Nicholas Hockey ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Bottom posting that are not very severely trimmed /dev/null Please understand that bottom posting in many email readers is severely painful, just as the same as top posting can be in others - there's a reason why top posting is so popular! This comes up regularly, and if memory serves me correctly, top posting is actually the more correct method by history, but not by much It can create an almost religious argument - live and let live please! You can bottom post, thats fine, just understand that many of your messages will not get read ... BillK On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 23:44, Collins Richey wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:09:30 +0100 Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spundun Bhatt wrote: Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Hello Dhruba, On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:48:52 +0100 Dhruba Bandopadhyay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? ... I'm using sylpheed-claws (imap4 supported) as graphical MUA in X and mutt in the console/shell. If you what to use mutt you have to fetch your mail via fetchmail or getmail, which at least fetchmail should have imap support. HTH Florian Huber -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote Threading the messages is a good idea since it alleviates information overload. However, what good threaded email clients are there? So far I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? Evolution. I think one other thing to note is that mostly threading is turned off by default, so probably many users violating the threading are just unaware of the capability of their mail client and hence unaware that they are breaking other people's mail-reading-experince. Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. Spundun -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 21:09, Spundun Bhatt wrote: Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote Threading the messages is a good idea since it alleviates information overload. However, what good threaded email clients are there? So far I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? Evolution. I think one other thing to note is that mostly threading is turned off by default, so probably many users violating the threading are just unaware of the capability of their mail client and hence unaware that they are breaking other people's mail-reading-experince. Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. Spundun -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. -Peter -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Spundun Bhatt wrote: Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. Here are guidelines that I follow and would encourage others to do so too. This is for general purpose reference and discussion and is not directed towards anyone in particular. General email guidelines: -- Use plain text instead of HTML. -- Wrap email at 72 characters as a lower limit. -- Do not ask for read receipts or delivery receipts unless necessary. -- Forward emails as attachment and not as inline text. -- Enable threading in your email client. -- Use sigdashes (--) before your signature. -- Keep signatures concise so that it does not detract from message content. -- Separate code listings out with a distinct start and end delimiter (e.g. ) -- When composing a new message with new subject create a new email rather than replying to an older message. -- When replying, create a reply from the email message that you wish to reply to and not just any message on the thread. -- When replying to existing messages include only the relevant portions of original email. -- Compose reply below quoted text rather than above. For each section of original message add reply below it. -- Any lengthy information (e.g. compilation failure log) should be attached to email rather than stated in the body of the email. -- When referring to a web resource provide web link rather than the resource itself. -- When providing lengthy web links put on a new line to prevent mixing with remainder of text. That would encapsulate good practice in general although preferences will vary. With regards Dhruba Bandopadhyay -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Peter McCracken wrote: On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 21:09, Spundun Bhatt wrote: Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. Spundun, If your message is starting on the second page, you probably need to trim the post you are replying to a little more thoroughly... And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. Peter, The recommended method replying is actually not strict bottom-posting. It is EDITED bottom posting, where you only keep enough of the previous message to keep the context obvious. I this particular case, I replied to two separate parts of the previous message. This keeps the context clear, and cuts down on bandwidth usage. The biggest problem with top-posting is that it tends to encourage the inclusion of the entire previous thread in each message. This is particularly bad if the message was from a message digest... The theory is that if your message makes sense without reading the included bits of the previous message, then you probably didn't need to include them at all. -- Craig West Ph: (416) 567-1491 | It's not a bug, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | It's a feature... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
Peter McCracken wrote: And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. It is not the message itself that is important but the context in which it is being written. Providing a relevant portion of the original message followed by the reply offers a context to the message in a 'question and answer' layout and saves the reader from reading the remainder of the thread to pick up the gist of the conversation. It is more intuitive to the mental model. Top posted content can be disorientating and difficult to understand as the author rarely takes the time to include the relevant portions of the original message. So essentially bottom posting ensures that the author formulates the message in good form to save the reader some valuable time. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Peter McCracken wrote: On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 21:09, Spundun Bhatt wrote: Another thing mentioned last time in a similar thread was top-posting. While I have harrassed the online community a lot with my top posted mails, I am trying to change that, is there any guidelines available for this? Sometimes I feel that if my message is starting on the second page of the mail, no-one is going to read it. And perhaps someone could answer why bottom-posting is better, anyway? I'll obey it, if that's etiquette. But I would have thought top posts were easier to read. I've seen it summed up as follows: A: top posting Q: What is one of the most annoying things in newsgroups and email discussion groups? Top posting eliminates the context of the answer. That said, I will top post when giving a short reply to a long email that can't be trimmed down without losing too much information. No one likes having to scroll down through three pages of quoted material to find one new line, which can be quite easy to miss if your client doesn't colorize or otherwise format the quoted lines (italics, etc). Which is another point, include only the relevant parts of the email. Definately do not include signatures or anything you're not replying to. This makes the email more readable, and helps those who pay by the byte. Deletion of content can be indicated with a line that says [snip]. Example: yesterday I started doing task A. [snip] I get error F00 every time I try option B. What's wrong? The discussion of top vs bottom posting also usually doesn't mention interspersed, which is frequently the most appropriate. If you ask 10 questions, I will usually answer each one in turn, rather than all at the top or bottom of the email (deleting those I can't answer). If you do this, the last line of the email should still be yours. Don't continue to quote stuff after you're done replying. That's just noise, and readers will wonder if they've missed something. One other thing, when replying, keep the reply indicator simple, such as a good ole ''. A five character reply indicator is quite excessive. -- Marshal Newrock, Simon's Rock College of Bard Caution: product may be hot after heating -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 10:12:26PM -0400, A. Craig West wrote: The recommended method replying is actually not strict bottom-posting. It is EDITED bottom posting, where you only keep enough of the previous message to keep the context obvious. One of the nicer features of mutt is its ability to toggle the display of quoted material (or simply skip past it). By default these actions are bound to the T and S keys in the pager screen. I'm constantly annoyed by mail from people that apparently can't find the delete key on their keyboard and quote all fifteen pages of text in a post they are replying to, with their three lines of actual content buried somewhere within (invariably with no surrounding whitespace whatsoever -- they can't seem to find the return key either). In mutt I just have to bounce on the T key to find the three lines of (usually anti-climatic) text they actually composed. Mutt also has the best threading of any mail tool I've ever used. (For that matter, it's the all around best mail tool I've ever used.) Mail is all about processing text quickly. I really hate taking my hands off the keyboard when processing text (which is why I rarely use GUI mail clients -- and refuse to use any that don't let me use vim while composing). Sadly, the IMAP support in mutt is somewhat lacking. It'll ask for header info for all umpteen bazillion messages in a folder before it presents the summary of the last 20 or so messages actually required to display the folder summary. IMAP is the ONLY thing that pine does better than mutt, IMHO. Fortunately I now maintain my own mail server and explicitly switched to courier-imap because it (only) groks maildirs. I access the maildirs directly from mutt sessions rather than using IMAP. Mutt still scans all umpteen bazillion messages in the maildir, but with reiserfs this is still reasonably quick. (Reiserfs rocks with big directories full of small files.) Even with multiple open mutt sessions and IMAP client sessions (sylpheed-claws, squirrelmail, pine whatever) reading my mail simultaneously machines from all over the internet, things don't get confused. [As long as I'm somewhere with an ssh client, I just ssh over to my server and run mutt locally -- otherwise I'll just use a browser or whatever IMAP client might be handy at the remote site.] -- Rex -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 08:15:18PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 10:12:26PM -0400, A. Craig West wrote: The recommended method replying is actually not strict bottom-posting. It is EDITED bottom posting, where you only keep enough of the previous message to keep the context obvious. One of the nicer features of mutt is its ability to toggle the display of quoted material (or simply skip past it). By default these actions are bound to the T and S keys in the pager screen. Cool! Didn't know about these! [snip] Mail is all about processing text quickly. I really hate taking my hands off the keyboard when processing text (which is why I rarely use GUI mail clients -- and refuse to use any that don't let me use vim while composing). Here here!!! Anyone that does not understand the gravity of these statements, would do well to force themselves to use vim for a month, and then see how they feel. Sadly, the IMAP support in mutt is somewhat lacking. It'll ask for header info for all umpteen bazillion messages in a folder before it presents the summary of the last 20 or so messages actually required to display the folder summary. IMAP is the ONLY thing that pine does better than mutt, IMHO. fetchmail, cron, and procmail all the way. These tools combined do a FAR better job than any kitchen sink mail client could hope to. Also, though, there is that new SPAM killer POP-3 client that learns from you what is SPAM and what is not. I forget what it's called. Could probably substitute it in for fetchmail, but I haven't tried it out yet. Oh wait, are you referring to leaving mail on the server? You can of course use fetchmail and have it only fetch _new_ mail each time. And then if you occasionally want to tell fetchmail to delete messages that are already read on the server, you can give it the -F option. - richard -- Richard Kilgore [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
* On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 20:38:26 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SpamAssasin is the only non-Bayesian spam filter to consider). Recent versions of SpamAssassin in fact do have Bayesian filters implemented which can be easily (auto)trained. I'm using such a setup with SpamAssassin 2.55 at the moment and it works very well for me. Regards, Jens -- An efficient and a successful administration manifests itself equally in small as in great matters. -- W. Churchill -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 08:15:18PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fortunately I now maintain my own mail server and explicitly switched to courier-imap because it (only) groks maildirs. I access the maildirs directly from mutt sessions rather than using IMAP. Mutt still scans all umpteen bazillion messages in the maildir, but with reiserfs this is still reasonably quick. (Reiserfs rocks with big directories full of small files.) I'm using mutt with maildirs, but I can't get courier-imap to understand my folders because they're not named INBOX.whatever (and I don't want them to be!). I would like them to be layed out as ~/Mail/INBOX/ ~/Mail/folder1/ ~/Mail/folder2/ ... Did you get anything like this working? I can't seem to convince courier to do this.. Owen P.S. I've been testing with IMAP clients squirrelmail and Mozilla mail. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 12:05:19AM -0400, Owen Gunden wrote: I'm using mutt with maildirs, but I can't get courier-imap to understand my folders because they're not named INBOX.whatever (and I don't want them to be!). I would like them to be layed out as ~/Mail/INBOX/ ~/Mail/folder1/ ~/Mail/folder2/ ... When worlds collide ~/Mail implies a filesystem (and probably a Unix shell to expand the ~) but INBOX implies IMAP. They are two very different things. Many IMAP servers (like Courier-IMAP) happen to use a filesystem to store the mail, but this is invisible to IMAP clients. An IMAP client might ask for INBOX and the server may know that this happens to correspond to a maildir named /home/owen/Mail/INBOX, but this is an artifact of the particular server (Courier). A different IMAP server might not use a filesystem at all (some IMAP implementations have used object-oriented databases as the underlying mailstore). That's just a preface, though. There are basically two flavors of IMAP -- UW (University of Washington -- home of Mark Crispin, the author of RFC2060 and pretty much the father of IMAP) and Cyrus (from Carnegie Mellon University). Courier happens to be of the latter flavor. With UW flavor, the separator character between folders and mailboxes is usually a /, and mailboxes are often kept at the top level of hierarchy: you might have mailboxes INBOX, sent, and work for example, as well as a folder name lists containing mailboxes for gentoo named lists/gentoo-user and lists/gentoo-doc. With Cyrus flavor, the separator character is usually a ., a mailbox itself can be a folder, and mailboxes are usually kept in a hierarchy *below* INBOX. In Cyrus (or Courier) the same mailboxes would be referred to as INBOX, INBOX.sent, INBOX.work, INBOX.lists.gentoo-user, and INBOX.lists.gentoo-doc. Courier-IMAP, in particular, uses an extension to Dan Bernstein's maildir (sometimes referred to as maildir+) that stores all subfolders as maildirs contained in one another (and always beginning with a .. Thus when you create a new mailbox named INBOX.foo with your IMAP client, the Courier-IMAP server will actually create a maildir named /home/owen/.maildir/.foo. So to make a long story short, what you are trying to accomplish is going against the grain. I don't think you can get Courier-IMAP to use ~/Mail/INBOX/ ~/Mail/folder1/ ~/Mail/folder2/ It will try to create ~/Mail/INBOX/ ~/Mail/INBOX/.folder1/ ~/Mail/INBOX/.folder2/ instead (assuming the default maildir is ~Mail/INBOX). P.S. I've been testing with IMAP clients squirrelmail and Mozilla mail. Pine has arguably the best IMAP client implementation (it was written by Mark Crispin and the UW folks using the imap-client library). Regards, -- Rex -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On 2003.06.23 23:45, Jens Mayer wrote: * On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 20:38:26 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SpamAssasin is the only non-Bayesian spam filter to consider). Recent versions of SpamAssassin in fact do have Bayesian filters implemented which can be easily (auto)trained. I'm using such a setup with SpamAssassin 2.55 at the moment and it works very well for me. SpamAssassin w/ razor support here. One or two spams a month is very much better than what I previously was recieving, as illustrated by my automagic spam counter: http://www.cidesign.ca/~chris/my-cgi/spam_count.cgi -Chris I fortune: cpu time/usefulness ratio too high -- core dumped. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 10:07:26PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] That's just a preface, though. There are basically two flavors of IMAP -- UW (University of Washington -- home of Mark Crispin, the author of RFC2060 and pretty much the father of IMAP) and Cyrus (from Carnegie Mellon University). Courier happens to be of the latter flavor. Interesting! With UW flavor, the separator character between folders and mailboxes is usually a /, and mailboxes are often kept at the top level of hierarchy: you might have mailboxes INBOX, sent, and work for example, as well as a folder name lists containing mailboxes for gentoo named lists/gentoo-user and lists/gentoo-doc. Yum. [...] Regards, -- Rex Thank you ever so much for the explanation! I've been trying to figure this stuff out for a while now, and your explanation has been the best I've gotten by far. I was already suspicious that UW-IMAP could do what I wanted it to do, and now I'm even more suspicious that it will at least come close. Since all I really want is webmail + mutt, maybe what I need is a webmail client that works directly with the maildirs. I wonder if such a client exists... Thanks again! Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On 2003.06.23 22:09, Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote: General email guidelines: -- Forward emails as attachment and not as inline text. Why as an attatchment? I usually either bounce mail if it needs to be redirected, or forward inline for ease of reading. Some mail clients make it a pain to view attatchments, and some mailclients might not tag them as text/plain. -- Use sigdashes (--) before your signature. Just another clarification request? Back in the day it was used to separate one's signature from the message. This made it easy for scripts to parse incoming email (such as mailman or something), but why is this really neccessary on a regular basis? Granted, i'll agree that email that just has CI or something on a line is kind of annoying, but (for example I will use my sig) a dash- name could be used. Parsing of content is much harder, but that is really unneccessary for the most part. -- When referring to a web resource provide web link rather than the resource itself. -- When providing lengthy web links put on a new line to prevent mixing with remainder of text. Also, on other mailing lists I'm on, links are often put in numbered footnotes. In things like the GWN, footnotes are after each paragraph rather than the end of the mail. Some people place footnotes after each paragraph un-numbered. Is this writer's preference? -Chris I The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the fabricator and impossible for the serviceman. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On 2003.06.23 20:48, Dhruba Bandopadhyay wrote: Threading the messages is a good idea since it alleviates information overload. However, what good threaded email clients are there? So far I am using mozilla mail 1.4_rc2 which is the only competent and fast threaded email client I have found with good IMAP support. What do you use? I used mozilla mail as my mail client from 0.9.5 until balsa introduced gpg support. It is a very nice client, but I prefer firebird as a browser, which meant I couldnt check mail and browse the net at the same time. I use thunderbird when stuck in windows. Balsa has good threading support, and imap support is adeqate, but is still more than usable. -Chris I The shortest distance between two points is under construction. -- Noelie Alito pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Threaded email client for gentoo-user?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 01:31:51AM -0400, Owen Gunden wrote: Thank you ever so much for the explanation! Your welcome. I used to work for Mirapoint explaining IMAP for a living :-) I was already suspicious that UW-IMAP could do what I wanted it to do, and now I'm even more suspicious that it will at least come close. UW is excellent for home use, but it has scaling/performance issues for heavy use. Since all I really want is webmail + mutt, maybe what I need is a webmail client that works directly with the maildirs. I wonder if such a client exists... If you've already got Courier IMAP working, why not just install SquirrelMail and point it at your (local) IMAP server? That's exactly what I do -- works like a champ. Regards, -- Rex -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
