[Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hi Mario, We had the good fortune to finally determine the confusion, thanks to Marlon. His writings are not the exceptions. Though his last post was one of the few with any specifics facts - if we can call them specific. Now the challenge for Goans is how do we correct some of the other inaccurate posts / web pages about Goa's history. A few years ago, thanks to a vigilant Goan in UK (I think), we got a British agency to change their description of Goans on their web site. They called us descendants of the Portuguese. Due to an e-mail campaign we got that changed within a month. Let's hope we have equal success in changing the erroneous statements made by others. I am referring to web pages. Hopefully those who are members of Goanet and are reading this thread will take the initiative and change the wording of their write-ups. Another option is to approach the individual who own / run the web sites. In short, those articles are not dissimilar to Marlon's. May be they were the sources to his opinion. Let me say that I have made my own share of inadvertent mistakes in my writings. But I hope I have not condemned or harmed anyone in those errors. The web sources I refer to above, are ready references and resources for those who would like to exploit "the facts", take them our of context, or for a minimum misunderstand them. As many have opined, these views can only harm Goans. Kind Regards, GL --- Mario Goveia wrote: Based on his endless repetitions of deliberately false assertions about the opinions of others, hoping no one will notice or remember the facts, it is a toss up that he is even quoting his own sources accurately. > The one thing we can be sure about based on extensive evidence in the archives is that his spin will be consistently anti-Christian on the grounds that he is really doing Christians a favor by "exposing their insecurities". --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In your last post you claimed some historical facts. You did so with much > confidence (to prove me wrong!). Obviously as a smart individual, you would > not be making a fool of yourself. So, I can only blame the authors of the > books and web pages that you read (as obviously you, like me, were not there > in the 16th century). > > You make my point. And I have made this repeatedly! Some amateurs are > writing these history books, web pages and expressing opinions not supported > by facts. This false facts either make their biases; or their bias is the > cause for the false facts. The other two reasons may be: plain ignorance, ani > sodanchem kaneos muree. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] The destruction of Hindu temples to build
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hi Vivek, I have not corresponded with you and I do not follow your posts. Yet in reference to below, can you post the specific acts of "extreme example of religious bigotry and intolerance" committed by St. Francis Xavier? Just the facts sir (not opinions), as it related to SFX (not the Portuguese) with references of the claims. Like Marlon, please take your time to research the information. After you provide us with the documentation, we can "accept" what ever you claim we should accept. We look forward to see the actual quotes of personal letters of SFX or first-hand accounts. That will help us understand what SFX was saying, which is often misinterpreted. I analyzed this a few years ago for Filomena Geise on Goanet. Thanks much on behalf of all Goans, who look forward to your research. Kind Regards, GL Vivek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It is well documented by independent historians and the writings of people like Francis xavier too reflect that barbarity. I belive it would be a good start for all of us if accept that what the portuguese and other colonial missionaries of bygone era incuding francis xavier did was an extreme example of religious bigotry and intolerance. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Goan discussion on degrees of affiliation to different faiths
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hi Cornel, Thanks for your post and eliciting my views. To begin with, I do not want to confuse with the Jewish issue and your reaction to other religions. I know little of your thought processes on these subjects. For the important issue at hand, that is a mere digression. If you don't think your writings and opinions are anti-Catholic, think again and take a closer look at yourself. When last did you write a positive post / story on the Catholic faith or Church? In the USA, I meet and work with a lot of non-practicing Christians / Catholics. They don’t care about religion. And that is perfectly fine with me. To repeat! That is perfectly fine with me! Yet, Goan atheists / agnostics and non-practicing Catholics are positively anti-Catholics in their attitudes. This is well seen in the recent discussions on Goanet. It is almost they need an anti-Catholic crutch to rationalize their non-practice of their faith. I have said often that religion is like the field of medicine. They both cover a vast territory and have a long history. Both have had and continue to have major faults and are constantly striving to improve themselves. Yet society needs both. Do you despise and harangue the physicians in your family due to past and present mistakes in the theory and practice of medicine? What would be the logic and rationale for a Church to be built on a temple when there was so much land available in Goa? Could not the Portuguese build a church in Goa wherever they wanted? Do Hindus (today) have to displace a church in USA or UK to build their temple? The choice of words of "arrogant displacement" is yours. Did your professorial curiosity ask for any specific factual details from Marlon or the other authors of anti-Catholic propaganda? With your "English sophistication", and your "deep questioning" you and others have a knack to exacerbate a situation. All this while you claim you are trying to understand the problem and be helpful. The above choice of words have not been the exception. For a similar reason on another thread I asked you if you were a practicing Catholic. I do not want to sound harsh and I apologize in advance if it does come across as such. Your "loaded phraseology" may tickle-pink the Goan-anti-Catholics across the Atlantic. Yet, the diatribe by the few of you-all does not help the Catholics in Goa and India. They have to live with the results of those snide remarks. I am sure you followed the politics of the ban on the Da Vinci Code movie - notwithstanding the various "editorials" in the press or in cyber Goa. That's how much native Goans think of the "smart Goans." I do not have to WASTE MY TIME countering the cheap shots by Catholics who are not even practicing-Catholics, even though their name sounds Goan Catholic. I am sorry to be so blunt. Yet, this is especially irking when you write (piously) that you are wasting your time trying to make Goanet educational. I am not asking you (or others) to refrain from pursuing the evaluation of your religion. Yet do you think washing our dirty religious laundry on Goanet advances your contribution to your faith? Instead of merely criticizing the past, now it is your turn to contribute to your religion. Yet, all that I see from you and others are your "rationale" for not practicing your faith. I am not a holy or fundamentalist person. But I hope at least I have good judgement and that is what I am annoyed about you-all. As I said previously, I work with non-practicing Christians / Catholics all the time and some are our good social friends. Yet they have good judgement not to show-off any anti-Christian attitudes (which they don't have) on their sleeve. The odds are, after all is said and done, you and other Goan-anti-Catholics will realize your positive contribution to the Catholic faith has been ziltz. That's because all of you elect to dwell only on the historical negatives both real and imaginary. In many respects I feel some of the Goan-anti-Catholics are like alcoholics who create their anti-Catholicism as a good excuse not to go for Sunday mass. This instead of blaming it on their self-indulgent hangovers. Kind Regards, GL cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: = Gilbert Firstly, I am at a loss to understand your current talk of anti-Catholic views. How can you possibly arrive at such a view when, as in my case, all
[Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples
Re: The destruction of Hindu Temples to build Churches This post should be called: Revision class on Goa's history! Hi Marlon, In your last post you claimed some historical facts. You did so with much confidence (to prove me wrong!). Obviously as a smart individual, you would not be making a fool of yourself. So, I can only blame the authors of the books and web pages that you read (as obviously you, like me, were not there in the 16th century). You make my point. And I have made this repeatedly! Some amateurs are writing these history books, web pages and expressing opinions not supported by facts. This false facts either make their biases; or their bias is the cause for the false facts. The other two reasons may be: plain ignorance, ani sodanchem kaneos muree. Yet the more you and others write THE FACTS, the more we can really help you.:=)) You and other readers please follow the specific dates and some basic historical facts as they relate to Goa. Albuquerque achieves his Goa victory on November 25, 1510. The Portuguese acquire Bardez and Salcette in 1543. The inquisition was introduced to Goa in 1560. Now please read what you have written below in your own handwriting. Then compare your dates to the remainder of the history posted after your post. Kind Regards, GL -- Marlon Menezes wrote: Just to let everyone, Gilbert's comments below are yet another spin in his attempt to deflect blame from the church. The Portuguese did not touch any of the Hindu structures and the native population continued to live as before. It as only around 100+ years later, with the onset of the Inquisition that the Portuguese were forced to change course and target the native Hindu population and their religion. It is only during this time that Hindu temples were destroyed with churches built on them. To suggest that Hindu temples were destroyed as a result of a military operation that took place 100+ years earlier is simply ridiculous! This was not a militarily driven operation. It was purely a manifestation of christian extremism. As I said, the more Gilbert writes on this topic, the more it highlights his biases. Marlon -- GL continues: Quote from history: Viceroy Antano de Noronha issued in 1566, an order applicable to the entire area under Portuguese rule : "I hereby order that in any area owned by my master, the king, nobody should construct a Hindu temple and such temples already constructed should not be repaired without my permission. If this order is transgressed, such temples shall be, destroyed and the goods in them shall be used to meet expenses of holy deeds, as punishment of such transgression." In 1567 the campaign of destroying temples in Bardez met with success. At the end of it 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. >From another source: The third temple is at Dhargal in Pernem, amidst beautiful surroundings. The Goddess was moved here in 1550 AD for safety from the Inquisition. GL comments: Marlon, you do not have to apologize for your mix-up of historical facts and dates. Though it is my understanding that you are an ex- India military guy and you may be quoting "military history". This may reflect your bias.:=)) You may have a comeback, saying my history dates are wrong. Then, please provide your events and the SPECIFIC dates/years. Anything else is just your usual spin. You may also want to check what military actions happened in Goa in 1565 and 1570. Now, can you tell us, the specific dates when the specific churches you claim were built on top of Hindu temples? Then tell us how many reconstructions these churches underwent during their entire existence. As a first step, let's see if these events were even remotely time-connected. The churches in Velha Goa were built in the early 16th century. It is my understanding the other Goa churches were built in the 17th and 18th century. Thanks for forcing me / compelling me to re-read my Goa history. Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Destruction of Hindu temples and replaced by
Hi Cornel, I will assume that the following is the British way of saying, "I stand corrected".:=)) Now if we can only get the other Goan anti-Catholics on the same page as you, I will have done my "missionary work". Pray, please tell us where do you keep reading this Goan anti-Catholic propaganda? Kind Regards, GL --- cornel wrote: I definitely made no claim that I was in any way certain that Hindu temples were destroyed for Catholic churches to be built over them. To say I had read about this is not to make a claim. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches
Hi Marlon, I read what I have written, and compared it to YOUR descriptions / interpretations of what I wrote. It indeed does NOT give me confidence to rely on what you claim you saw. In fact your spin on my writings is doing wonders to your credibility, and is really making my point. Perhaps you are trying to be the "Dan Brown of Divar". I for one will visit the Divar Church if and when I get to Goa. No promises.:=)) Other readers following this topic can decide for themselves on the veracity of your claims. Let's agree to disagree. Yet, if spinning my posts will give you practice to be the "Goan Dan Brown", I will go along. Perhaps I will have to wait for more expert opinions and proof. I don't believe in fiction. And neither should you.:=)) Kind Regards, GL Marlon Menezes: If you wish to ignore the mountains of independent research that has been done on this issue and choose to ignore the material evidence that still exists on the ground today, all the more power to you. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches
Hi Cornel, This is a response to some of your comments in the two recent posts on this thread. Both your posts have statements which appear to be confusing. In themselves, some may be true statements, but they (the various facts) are not connected. As I stated previously and discussed about two years ago, Hindu temples were destroyed to terrorize the native population and as part of a LAND GRAB. Thus the Hindus left their ancestral land and villages and fled the Portuguese territory. This was part of the military's plan. All invading armies did the same - used some excuse (extending from destruction of places of worship and homes, slaughter, intimidation, introduction of laws, etc.) to confiscate / grab the land. The land was then distributed (as compensation) to the retired soldiers and officers of the invading army. The same happened in England leading to estates and titles like Baron, Earl, Duke etc. Within the Indian context, the titles of the land holders were zamindar, Emir, Sultan, Nawab etc. And prior to that, the Hindu dynasties had their own hierarchy. This had nothing to do with building places of worship which all the new rulers did. The very actions of the Portuguese military in driving off the local population was counter-productive to the efforts of conversion and a very poor example of Christian kindness (and likely scarring the new converts). It must have been frustrating to the young motivated nuns and priests who came all the way from Europe to help the natives. Portuguese colonials in Goa were a law unto themselves. Even the King of Portugal had little control on them. The Church had even less influence, in spite of repeated protestations. See letters of St. Francis Xavier to the King. As expected some Catholic Goans misinterpret these letters. The Portuguese Governador generally came on a three-year term of duty. They and their administrative staff started accumulating wealth as soon as they landed in Goa. It was to control these excesses (moral and criminal activities) by the Portuguese (Catholics), including its military, that the Church introduced the religious, not civil (difficult to separate the two) inquisition and its deterrence effects in Goa. The Portuguese who came to Goa were not necessarily a civilized lot. Goa was not the best place to be posted, even though we call it - amchem bangarachem Goem. It is wet like crazy in the monsoon, hot like hell in the summer (with no fans or air conditioning), and the rest of the year (Goa of the 16th, 17th, 18th century) had endemics of malaria and many other tropical diseases. Even Portugal's most famous poet, Camoes, landed in Goa because of the choice given to him - continue to be in jail (for a drunken brawl in Portugal) or go to Goa. And while in Goa he also landed in jail due to bad debts. Wonder where this intelligent guy was spending his money.:=)) Yet, I am not blaming the young Portuguese bachelor-men, who with no education, were shipped off to Goa away from their families for the sake of King and Country. This was just what life was in the 16th, 17th, 18th century. The type of social life the Portuguese led is also exemplified by the reported 500 cases of syphilitic deaths EVERY YEAR in tiny Goa (pre-penicillin era). And these cases do not include the numbers with primary and secondary stages of the disease and other STDs. Many of these non-curable diseases were endemic (not epidemic) to "golden Goa". I wonder if you or other critics of the inquisition have any suggestions that should have been used to confront these social and medical problems. The inquisition may have been worse than the disease. In my estimate the proportional statistics (based on the population at risk) for the STD illnesses are much worse compared to today's AIDS epidemic. The churches in Goa as expected were built to meet the needs and built where the Catholic population grew / existed. (According to your theory and a few other anti-Catholics it is: "Ah a temple is destroyed, let's go and build a church on top of it.") The majority of the Catholic population in Goa in the 16th, 17th, 18th century were white Portuguese and other Europeans (who came to Goa for commerce, shipping, and to serve in the civilian and military administration) and the mesticios. Velha Goa's population was reported to be as large as that of Lisbon and Madrid. There was no connection between Hindu temples and the Catholic churches. Let me explain by putting it in today's context. In the USA, many Christian churches are closing down and physically deteriorating because of declining worshipers. At the same time many new Hindu temples are being built to meet the needs of the increasing Hindu population. While these are going on simultaneously, the events are not connected. As a faith believer, it is great that Hindus can build their temples in the USA and continue their religion, culture and tradi
[Goanet] Libel & Defamation in the Information Age
I am not sure that regular disclaimers by the moderators and producers of this bulletin board can protect them in addition to the poster from, "It's not uncommon for users to ridicule, harass or insult those who disagree with them." Individuals who have a pattern of such posts, expose themselves to even greater risk not just for libel and penalties, but for punitive damages. It is in punitive damages where attorneys make their (financial) kill. At least that is in medical malpractice. Please read the remainder for the rest of the information. Kind Regards, GL "Goa's Pride Goa-World.Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On the Internet, where abnormal behavior is the status quo, tempers can flare in the heat of debate and word wars can last for days or even weeks. It's not uncommon for users to ridicule, harass or insult those who disagree with them. But if you damage someone's reputation by trying to embarrass them in a public forum, you could be sued for libel or defamation. After all, there's no reason to assume that the messages you send through cyberspace are immune from lawsuits. "The Internet culture right now is for users to refute speech with speech," says Dave Marburger, the attorney who represented Brock Meeks in one of the first defamation lawsuits in the United States involving the Internet. "But as the Internet culture gets more diverse, users will start refuting speech with lawsuits." _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] India in the News ... again
My son-in-law (ex-Bombayite and ex-Manipal engineering graduate) is a past graduate of Harvard Business School (HBS), Boston. As such he is a member of their alumni and I get to see the HBS Alumni bulletin. In the June '06 issue of the magazine the cover is blazoned with "INDIA GOES GLOBAL" with title of the lead article "India Arrives". Those interested about India's growth and current economic strategies and challenges should read the article. It may be available on the Internet. The article has extensive quotes of the CEOs and Chair-men and -women of major companies in India. Many of them are MBAs and most are HBS graduates. Great way for HBS alumni to link and network - that's the whole reason of the alumni bulletin. Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples .....
For perhaps every "true fact" of the Middle Ages there are many of "Dan Brown's" accounts, analysis, opinions and conjectures. Recently I was reading a well-written account on the discrepancy between the Da Vinci's Last Supper painting and the true account of the event (Passover supper) per Jewish practices. There were many interesting differences. Yet, I was amazed that the most obvious fact was not mentioned. Jesus Christ and the apostles are presented in the painting as white men with many having blond hair. Yet we do not see any Mid-East / Palestenians today look like that. So much for "true depictions" in what we see. Also if anybody believes in the existence of the "Holy Grail", I may have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell for very cheap. The person could become rich, by charging all the motorists using the bridge. Please decide before one reads the following.:=)) The "Holy Grail" (which now everybody knows about) has been one of the most important Christian stories in England dating from a few hundred years after Christ. Many books, stories, cathedrals, abbeys and family trees in England are based on this "Holy Grail". This even includes its linkage to King Arthur, other knights, kings and English history. Yet now we know, the water from the "Holy Grail" fountain in Glastonbury, is clear though it appears red as it flows over the rocks (thus supporting the myth of the Holy Grail). The TV commentator states, "the water and the rocks are rich in Iron." Hence we should be skeptical on rumors, beliefs and writings from the Ancient and Middle Ages. In Goa, we call them Kaneos. However many modern writings are reproductions from or heavily referenced to Middle Age accounts. A good example is the De Vinci Code. Other modern examples are some of the articles written on the web on Goa during the Middle Ages. Hence SUBJECTIVE descriptions should be taken with a large grain of salt. This compared to texts that are factual and describe OBJECTIVE findings. Some of these objective findings should still be CORROBORATED to verify the authenticity of the original descriptions. Or else what we see and what they mean may be fictional and we do not want our religious beliefs to be based on fiction. Some on Goanet call the Bible fictional. And undoubtedly some texts in the Old Testament are very simplified! Because they have been written for the people of the time that the texts were written. Common Sense! They are religious texts and not scientific texts. The best example of such writings is the creation of the world in six days; and the suggestion that the sun revolves around the earth. Yet many of the SAME individuals who call the Bible fictional believe in accounts / hand-me-down stories / kaneos / and other writings of the Ancient and Middle Ages by individuals whose authenticity they / we know very little. Kind Regards, GL - Aurelius Figueredo Well it's also quite well known the during the early crusades in Europe, a lot of "pagan temples" were destroyed and churches raised in their place. The reasons were varied of which this thread doesn't get into but it did happen. In fact as Marlon stated, in some old churches eastern Europe, tourists have actually traced the outlines of the "pagan temple" within the church. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Diocesan Society of Education should act!
Hi Tony and Floriano, I agree with you-both about the importance of English language. The importance of the language is for the students and their parents and others interested in the next generation of Goans. Goan Catholics do a good job of sometimes wanting it both ways. They insists the Catholic Diocese be confined to "rock solid principles related to religion" and then expect the institution to fight the Goans' battle for economic progress. Should not the Goan Catholics themselves fight for and strongly "support the govt's wise move"? This rather than expect the Diocese to do it all for them while they sit back and criticize the Diocese / Church? Before you misundersatnd me, I repeat, I agree on the fight for the use of English. Yet, don't you think you'd have more success by you and other teachers and parents leading the fight? And so should the other English writers and journalists and newspapers. That is because they are looking for future readers. And so too should high tech employers, hotel owners, etc etc. Kind Regards, GL --- Goa Su-Raj Party <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Absolutely well said and totally relevant. We goans are our own undoing. Hopefully the Diosesan Society of Education (Bishop's Palace) will see the light after its blunder perpetuated on the people of Goa earlier thro' the all Konkani medium in the primary section. We Goans love our language. But at what cost??? Should not the hypocrites be exposed forthwith? If mistakes were done, just say sorry and get on with the work. Posterity will appreciate the efforts. Anthony M Barreto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Starting this academic year, the Goa education department reintroduced an English language subject from Std I. Sensible move. The Oposition BJP and MGP have joined forces to oppose it. It's time the Goa Diocesan Society of Education support the govt's wise move at least now after meekly accepting Konkani as the medium of instruction in all its primary school. English is the mark of gentleman and it is the language of our bread and butter. Even for the job of a peon you need English. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Built on top of
Hi Cornel, To be "BUILT ON TOP OF" is what the English language says. And this was precisely the basis for the Babri Masjid controversy which generated much violence, loss of lives and property, and other costs in India a few years ago. The temple-related violence had spread to other states including the train massacre in Gujarat. The mosque was destroyed and then demolished, and evaluated by the India-government / court appointed archeologists. To the best of my knowledge, they found no temple beneath this mosque in Ayodhaya. Please someone correct me if I am wrong. A building being "on top of" other structures is common where real state is at a premium. This occurs on the top of a "sacred mountain" OR a small "auspicious island" in the middle / confluence of rivers OR in an VERY OLD populated important city. The best example of the last is Jerusalem, Damascus, Rome, New York, London and other major cities. But pray, in Goa in the 16th and 17th century, (and later) there was no land that was a premium. The Portuguese built their own NEW capital at Velha Goa and later Panjim. Other new rulers did the same in Delhi and later New Delhi, Islamabad away from Rawalpindi and Washington DC. (reasons are obvious!) In your post below, you have made many claims which appear to be unconnected to the specific issue being discussed. (Those statements need another post). I am glad in your inquiry about Goa you state, "I regret I do not have the hard evidence which would be appropriate." I am sure you would agree we should make sure our words mean exactly what they say. And the sources we quote / refer to, are authenticated with some valid objective proof rather than a mere reference to somebody's fictional or non-fictional writings. Regards, GL cornel Thanks for your response. I detect a presentational problem over some of this debate. a) "built on top" to me has meant on a particular site where a structure previously existed. The skyscrapers in limited space on Manhattan Island, New York represent this continously. Indeed, this happens almost everywhere as old structures get demolished and new ones are constructed on the same site by way of modernisation. However, my understanding is that in Goa, some Hindu temples were demolished and Catholic churches were built in their place in a spirit of arrogant displacement. Have I got this entirely wrong according to you? Are you saying that it is not acceptable to say that Catholic churches were built following Portuguese destruction of Hindu temples as you have not found firm historical evidence for such a claim? I regret I do not have the hard evidence which would be appropriate as I have been busy doing other things! b) "built on top" in the way you used it, did not quite strike me as a possible interpretation in our discussion i.e using part of an old structure to hold up the new one. We live and learn! Regards Cornel. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Goa importing poverty
Hi Cornel, Thanks for your question. Your query of physician migration to UK or USA refers to another example of lack of innovative planning in India in the 1970's and 1980' and perhaps even now. Much of the migration would be reduced if the medical schools and medical planners expanded and encouraged many more fields of medical practice in India. In spite of the excess supply of doctors in some specialties, there is a shortage of doctors in other specialties with none available in many parts of the country. For example in the 1970's there were about half-a-dozen cancer centers in the entire country. That was less than what one saw in the city of London or in a borough of New York City. In fact would be interesting TODAY if ALL the "rock solid Goans" (believers in anything) built a rock solid cancer center IN Goa? And the "rock solid native Goans" could maintain the cancer center and its operations. That would be a good belief that should satisfy all. Other medical specialities which are CURRENTLY not widespread in India are sports medicine, geriatrics, pain management, physiatrists. This does not even include sub-specialization is various specialty fields - like pediatric-cardiology or pediatric-gastroenterology or neuro-radiology or vascular-surgery etc. Kind Regards, GL PS. The above suggestion of a cancer center in Goa should in no way be construed that I am seeking a position. In the 1970 and 1980's India government's policy was concentrating on eradicating malaria, cholera, typhoid, amoebaesis and other communicable diseases. It did not want the public or private sector to address the illnesses of the middle class and "waste the country's limited resources" in importing foreign technology. Yet most immigrant doctors of the 70's and 80's are not complaining.:=)). That is called making lemonade from a lemon! Cornel: Just one small point re your "Why are the world economists (who were in favor of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land?" Could the same have been said about Indian doctors who rushed to migrate to the USA? Just asking? _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Woman priest says Mass
Hi Cornel, >From claiming that I said that I am, "denying that Hindu temples were >destroyed during Portuguese rule in Goa" , Marlon switches his claim to, "deny the reality that churches were built on top of destroyed Hindu temples!" Contemporary historical accounts do document PORTUGUESE SOLDIERS destroying Hindu Temple en mass. There is even documentation of the name of the Portuguese officer who led the night of the rampage. We reviewed this in the past, as being part of an invading army's attempt to land-grab, to later on settle its own retired soldiers to form a new supportive community. I still continue to request which SPECIFIC church(s) in Goa were built ON TOP OF Hindu temples. So if Marlon or Cornel or others has any DEFINITE evidence (contemporary historical accounts OR archeological studies OR other dating studies like temple art) within a church PLEASE PROVIDE. This rather than some hand-me-down assertions a.k.a. grandma's kaneos or some accounts why this or that place or event is superstitious. Below is the post that I wrote. It is a great pity (being polite) that Marlon reproduced only a selective quote of my post (the last part of the post). ------- Retaining walls in Church Gilbert Lawrence: If you were building a house for yourself, (as I did) would you want a wall of an old house (of uncertain building materials) maintained and be a small component of the new house? And run the risk of collapse of the entire structure at later date due to the unknown foundation? Or would it be a lot easier for all involved and a lot safer to just build the new structure in-toto? Is the astute observation a fact or a mind's eye? Tariq: When you are in a hurry to build a church or a mosque, and there are no bricks or stones available, you typically use those from the temple that you destroyed. I know of several mosques in North India, that used stones from other temples. In some strange cases, the stones were brought from several hundred miles away. But from what I read, it was a standard practice. Gilbert responds: Agree with Tariq's statement of using bricks from other buildings. It is common that bricks, gold and other precious metals and precious stones etc, are reused/ recycled. But the very act suggests that it is UNLIKELY THAT ONE IS BUILT ON TOP of the other. Now there are always exceptions to the rule; but it is not the practice. For intellectual Goans to make blanket statements that this occurred is both disingenuous and inflammatory or one is living in a make belief world of India. Now that the issue is placed on the table (wittingly or unwittingly), let's discus this rationally, logically and scientifically. And hope wild statements do not come up again and poison the atmosphere in Goa or on Goan cyberspace. - I thank Aurelius Figueredo for posting the other relevant links of what I wrote. To those who may have missed his post, here is the web links that Auri posted which actually is a good revision of our dialogue two years ago. (March 2004). The post is titled "Church built on temple?" http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2004-March/011273.html Here is one of Marlon's replies: http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2004-March/011298.html Here is another one of Gilbert's replies: http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2004-March/011287.html Since the above dialogue Miguel Braganza had a few posts on the Church in Mapuca. Even with him writing a book on this church, he had no evidence that the Mapuca church was built ON TOP OF a temple. I thank Cornel for responding to my post and answering my questions. I am sure he realizes that it would be a good practice for any author(s) to be up front with "a full disclosure" on any given issue, especailly when they express a contrarian view. The discussion on this thread has moved far away from the title of the thread. It now has become personal upmanship and rehashing of past threads (with no new information) rather than on religious belief. I hence will consider this to be my last post on this thread. I will be keen to read any resposne to the four issues that I posted in the last post on "Goa importing poverty". Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Goa importing poverty
The "Goa importing poverty" thread evolved in a very enlightening and civil manner into market economies. I thank both Elizabeth and Mario for keeping it intellectual. Yet both (and the rest of us) would agree that anything good (policies, regulations, laws) left to itself and taken to its extreme by vested interest is bad. The issue is how does society prevent the abuse of a "good thing"? And how do we (society or govt.) address important issues rather that create short-term and short-sighted solutions to more fundamental problems. Here are some thoughts: 1. Should "Social Security" for Seniors relieve the children from being primarily responsible for the well-being of their parents? It should not. But yet is does all too often. This includes the Senior Citizens not wanting to be dependent on their children. 2. The issue of Dubai Ports Deal was a security issue. Yet security is the responsibility of the Govt. / Coast Guard and not of a private company - American or foreign. The intellectual issue here is: Why are there no American companies competing for the tender to manage and operate the ports? 3. The illegal immigration discussion is also miss-directed. Why are the world economists (who were in favor of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land? It is my understanding that the major cause for sharply rising unemployment in Mexico is the undermining of their agriculture with import of cheap corn and other agricultural products. It is like the USA on manufactured products! Its good if it is cheap, but bad if it creates unemployment. Unfortunately neither the academics nor the major and multi-national corporations have stepped to the plate to develop innovative solutions to these worldwide problems. 4. In economic terms, is not human labor and talent (including brain power) to some extent a resource - and thus an exportable / renewable commodity? So in a "free trade system", why / how would one restrict human movement across boundaries be it in Goa or USA, EU, Canada or Australia? Population migration is a NATURAL PHENOMENON and has occurred since the time Man first migrated out of Africa 100,000 years ago. Kind Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Woman priest says Mass
Hi Cornel, Thanks for "coming to the source" since you have not read what I have written. Yes, you and others have misconstrued me. Please repeat my request to Marlon to post the specific quote and the entire context of the quote if any. As now the virulent anti-Catholic Goans are grasping for straws and getting personal, it would suggest it is time to quit. Your silence and that of others during this intellectual discussion speaks volumes about your stand.:=)) Yet, given you past writing on this subject, can I ask you if you are a practicing Catholic? And are you part of any ministry in your Church? Kind Regards, GL --cornel Gilbert Are you seriously saying that Hindu temples were not destroyed by the Portuguese so as to build churches atop the destroyed buildings? Please clarify this point in case I have misunderstood you. Cornel _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] India gobbling the world
Yesterday's US national TV program the Nightly Business Report had a news program about Indian companies buying companies abroad. The reporter claimed that in 2005, Indian companies spent 100 billion dollars buying foreign companies. These were mainly - IT companies, consumer products and hotel chains. The reporter also claimed that there is about the 150 billion dollar surplus with the Bank of India. Today's NBR claimed that IBM announced that it plans to spend 6 billion dollars in India. This will add to the 43,000 people that the company already employs in India. Kind Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Tomorrow is 666
To those who are superstitious and belive in the End-Times, the number 666 is ominous. Tomorrow is that date on the calendar. Kind Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Woman priest says Mass
Hi Marlon, Can you provide me a copy of my post where I an "denying that Hindu temples were destroyed during Portuguese rule in Goa"? Thanks in anticipation. Kind Regards, GL -- From: Marlon Menezes Gilbert for his part believes that the Catholic Church can do no wrong to the point of denying that Hindu temples were destroyed during Portuguese rule in Goa. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Reminder on morality and social conscience
Santosh's post makes interesting reading and in some ways is thought provoking. His response as an atheist / agnostic to my post about: What's the Purpose to life?; and What happens after death", was interesting. It was short and what one would expect from an atheist / agnostic - Nothing, Nyet, De nada, and Kaput. So it is not difficult to discuss the moral superiority of any established / endured religion over Nothing, Nyet, De nada, and Kaput! And yet it is difficult to compare Something to Nothing. Compare my prior response to Santosh to the "Seven Suggestions" of atheist belief. Yet, it is definitely POSSIBLE that an individual atheist / agnostic (especially intellectuals) may have high social responsibility and appreciate his / her moral and social duties. What bewilders me is that individuals WITH religion (that emphasize these duties and responsibilities) have a difficult time living up to these standards. What can one expect, in general from those with none of those inculcated values? And who would inculcate those values? One can argue that for some religion is a camouflage not to live up to high moral standards. Yet that is not the shortcoming of religion. In the book "Goa -A Daughter's Story", the (Catholic) author talks to the respected (Hindu) sage about the pernicious caste practices in Goa and its endurance even through the colonial period especially among Hindus. The intellectual (forget his name) replied, (to the effect) "You Catholics have no idea about the benefit of the 'Sunday Sermao' and how much that sermao helps your community constantly recognize, evaluate and address its social ills." Perhaps some baptized Catholics have turned anti-Catholic and atheist because of the religion's strict codes of living. Many "hate their religion" because as teenagers the coped with taboos on premarital sex and abortion. Others hate the Church's stand against live-in relationship prior to marriage or after a divorce, or the reluctance to grant a divorce . and the list can go on and on. Marlon states his reason for his anti-Catholic and anti-Bible posts are because of anti-Hindu and anti-Muslim posts on Goanet by Catholic Goans. Great logic! Cut your nose to spite your face! Yet, can he please place for us the last three anti-Hindu and anti-Muslim posts on Goanet? All the "theory" we read from some individuals about Religion and the Church may be a cover-up for deeper issues. Hence "Catholic atheists" are individuals for whom I feel sorry, for this small group that may have lost its bearings. I do not want to sound "holier than thou" because at times we are all atheists (do not want to accept God) and that is called SIN. Kind Regards, GL - Mario responds: I agree that an individual's moral compass is theoretically not dependent on any ideology or religious or non-religious belief, and that the results can be the same on a day-to-day basis. Individual unorganized atheists MAY have what could be summarized as the "Seven Suggestions" that overlap similar strictures in the Ten Commandments. However, these carry no consequences by any organized and influential group other than those imposed by civil or criminal law. --- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This is to remind ourselves that the notion that a moral compass or social conscience is dependent on adherence to some form of ideology, religion or atheistic belief system, has been thoroughly discredited in this and other Goan forums. It has also been shown that no religion, ideology or atheistic belief system has ever had a rock-solid moral compass. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Woman priest says Mass
Hi Mario, Thanks for your long response how "you got dragged" kicking and screaming onto this topic while you were peacefully "minding your own business" and planting your spring flowers. The next time I am caught in this situation, my response to them would likely be, "It's all right to sit on your pity pot every now and again. Just be sure to flush when you are done.":=)) Kind Regards, GL From: Mario Goveia As an atheist convert and evangelist with the typical hubris and "what can I get away with today" moral compass, it does not surprise me at all that you are deliberately misconstruing my posts, because I have done anything but blindly follow the shephard. > I will have far more respect when you can show me long-standing and world-wide atheist-supported schools, hospitals, nursing homes, homes for the aged, orphanages and other charitable organizations, as well as a rock solid moral compass going back thousands of years that no one with even half a brain can misunderstand. --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That is exactly where the church wants you with the rest of the sheep who > keep their heads down grazing on the verbiage it provides without questioning > or looking up except to follow directions from the shepherd. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Woman priest says Mass
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hi Mario, I am sure you would not mind / want to "discriminate" / prevent other card carrying atheists / agnostics from answering the second paragraph of your well written post (see below). In my communications with this group, they are great in articulating the limitations of other's beliefs. Yet when it comes to explaining their own beliefs and actions they appear tongue-tied. I'd welcome / encourage them to have a "Progressive Igroz" with a woman pope. They even have a good candidate for the job. And very articulate members on this forum (don’t have to go far) who could hold other high offices. Their religion could expound on multiple spouses, lax moral, social and legal codes etc etc. So what is holding them back? Their joy of torturing the rest of us perhaps.:=)) The next demographic study of Goans can even have a category of Goan atheists/agnostics. This in addition to the current Hindus, Catholics and Muslims. I am sure the ever-generous Khoro Niz Goenkars will make room for these "bhaile". Kind Regards, GL From: Mario Goveia As an atheist convert and evangelist with the typical hubris and "what can I get away with today" moral compass, it does not surprise me at all that you are deliberately misconstruing my posts, because I have done anything but blindly follow the shephard. > I will have far more respect when you can show me long-standing and world-wide atheist-supported schools, hospitals, nursing homes, homes for the aged, orphanages and other charitable organizations, as well as a rock solid moral compass going back thousands of years that no one with even half a brain can misunderstand. --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That is exactly where the church wants you with the rest of the sheep who > keep their heads down grazing on the verbiage it provides without questioning > or looking up except to follow directions from the shepherd. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Good points by all sides. Yet, while and because we are ONLY talking (and writing), we need to import outsiders to DO THE JOB in Goa. Kind Regards, GL --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: > Dear Mario, > You've raised exactly the points that need to be discussed in context with > this issue. > There are many countries that encourage immigration. Canada, the Gulf > countries, the EU (in part) and even the US and Australia in the 70s and 80s. > This is because they need the actual numbers to make up the workforce. Mario observes: Elisabeth, Kudos for initiating these stimulating ideas. > While doing this, let the discussions based on ten opinions for every five Goans continue over a refreshing or intoxicating adult beverage - starting with home-made fenny and Belo Beer :-)) > _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] HEART-TO-HEART: From Princess to Pauper
Every Goan is passionate about Goa! Every other resident of any other place is passionate about the place they live. The difference is most other successful people and communities do something about their passion and channel their Passion into ACTION. Now that one has identified the problems (see below), don't talk about them. Do something at the GRASS ROOT LEVEL. Everybody Goan wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. If we can learn from others, which I love to do, I am amazed about the grass root interest in the USA on issues concerning individuals. Now is spring and summer and every weekend there are events, to raise awareness and MONEY for causes like: diabetes, heart, cancer, missing children, domestic violence, hospice, etc. etc. and every public interest project. And ordinary people support them with 5- 100 dollar donations. Those seeking the donations work for the donated money by running, riding bikes, baking, cookies or cake sale, spaghetti or chicken dinner, conducting auctions, etc. These are just a few ideas for the grass root to take action and control of their own environment and predicament rather that relying or passing the buck to someone else. Kind Regards, GL --- Ethel Da Costa: I'm passionate about Goa, even if I do believe I'm a world citizen. And so are 70 per cent of the people who live and work in Goa and passionately stand up for this State. People whose forefathers and grandfathers build their homes and stature off the sweat of their brow, so that their grandchildren could benefit from the fruits of their toil. A toil that is going waste today, because the curse of politics that afflicts our lives and the future of Goa. Saddled with shameless opportunists and vote bank politics, the fate of the fragile coastline of North Goa continues to sit on the brink of impending environmental disaster, and the possibility of locals who make a living off the coastal belt losing their bread and butter, permanently. Goa is a tourism dependent state, like it or not, its certified. The world comes to us to chill. Even at the cost of our taps running dry, our power supply blowing up our electric appliances, the drug mafia and sex tourism hitting an all time high. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: The right of Christians in India to prostelize (revised)
The author of the following post "agrees" with me. Yet there is little in the first paragraph of the post with which I agree. That makes a bulletin board interesting. The fact that any institution or government or country last for a long time suggest that it was / is valuable, useful, productive, efficient and had some solid foundation. Any business built on spin and hype, (or government support and military might or intrigue or "feel good" topic d' jour) would exists ONLY (for less than) 1-2 centuries. So I do NOT agree that in the main the Church is into spin and marketing. When it has, the endeavor has not lasted long - at the most a few centuries. And in the end it has invariably backfired. I do NOT agree that the church is a "feel good" organization. If anyone believes so, perhaps the individual has to rethink their concepts of the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ. To use my simile again, the religion and the Church is like the medical field. Medicine had, has and will continue to have false theories from time to time on various medical subjects. There are some corrupt physicians and many hospitals are run like a business. Yet, shenanigans do not last for long. No one makes the point that medicine did not and does not have a valid role in society over the centuries. Anyone who recommends to others or does not see a medical doctor for a serious illness because of past errors in medicine, badly needs to see a doctor, if nothing for more, at least to "have their head examined".:=)) Kind Regards, GL Marlon Menezes I agree with Gilbert. There should not be any bans on conversions in India or anywhere. Religion (as Gilbert correctly described with his example of Christianity in France), like any business, is all about spin and marketing. It does not have to be based on facts, but is focused on making the "customer" feel good. Whether Jesus was god, human, illegitmate, married etc does not matter. The fact is that the Christian church has been able to maintain a large base of very happy customers over the millenia. In fact the church has been so successful, there are so many versions of it today, each with its own brand of christianity and Jesus Christ. The catholic church for its part, is fundamentally a very successful 2000 year old business, and is a testament to the vision of its founder father (no pun intended) and its CEOs that followed Jesus. Amen. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] I'm back!!!
Hi Cornel, I have not seen the movie Da Vinci Code and I do not plan to do so. I have seen several programs on the two books on my favorite TV station - the History Channel. Today I saw something on the Travel channel - in Southern France, UK or Mid East. As a student of History and travel, I love to learn something new. Yet something hyped like the Da Vinci Story (at least from the TV series on the novel) turns me off. So right now, I am only amazed by all this hullabaloo about this fictional account, which the authors of both books admit at the outset as being fictional. Another fact that humors me is that we ignore the Bible written by known authors - the apostles' account. Yet we add much weight to the Judas Gospel and other documents where we do not know who was the author and when was it written. Obviously a few hundred years after Christ there was much differences in "Jesus' Followers" with different geographical areas / sects of the following having different interpretations. I guess this depended on the archbishop and his bias. The last TV program said that the concept of Jesus being married and having a wife (believed by the Egyptian sect called the Gnostic), mirrored the Egyptian view of god Osiris and his wife Isis. So it would appear that this Egyptian sect tried to make Jesus acceptable to the local population by portraying Jesus in a manner of the "known entity" - the Egyptian God Osiris. Perhaps as a reincarnation Osiris? This is not different from Paul presenting Jesus' teaching as an evolution of Jewish faith as Paul's main audience were, like him, Jews scattered across Greco-Roman territories in Asia Minor, Greece and Italy. And this is no different in the way Europeans view Jesus as a white person and African's view him as black. We all know in the Middle Ages, and perhaps even now, the common way churches raised funds and built bigger churches was by having local saints, relics, pilgrimages, and creating other exciting stories like their church has the Holy Grail. That was the likely start of the story of the "discovered documents" started by the priest in Southern France in the late 1500's. He "found" the Templar documents in the little chapel that was crumbling. Neat way to get people to come to France and his church to make offerings. The French word "Sangraal" first appeared in a poem in France in the Middle Ages. This is 1200 years after Christ. Kind Regards, GL PS: On a related point. You are for availability of the book "Da Vinci Code" in India (which I agree). But you are for banning the distribution of the Bible (evangelization) in India. Changing standards would you not say?. My stand is I am in favor of Christian conversions in India and Hindu conversions in USA as long as in both (and other) cases there is no overt or covert coercion. cornel As a matter of interest, I couldn't tell from your long post(s) whether you have seen the controversial film The DaVinci Code or are planning to do so. From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > It looks like your thinking cap was in the microwave getting > super-charged.:=)) I have to state at the outset that I am not as smart > in connecting the dots (real and im I could not find the decode words as Dan > Brown found in his research when he read all those documents from Jerusalem > to Southern France. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] I'm back!!!
Hi Elisabeth, It looks like your thinking cap was in the microwave getting super-charged.:=)) I have to state at the outset that I am not as smart in connecting the dots (real and imaginary) as you. Perhaps you are a member of Mensa. I could not find the decode words as Dan Brown found in his research when he read all those documents from Jerusalem to Southern France. I could not find those (real and imaginary) connections even after it was pointed out. But I felt vindicated when another authority on the TV program said, "There was never any link between a V being a feminine symbol or a woman's womb in any artistic language" that he knew off etc etc. I do not know if you saw the History Channel on the "Beyond the Da Vinci Code" program. My responses to you specific points follow your statements. Kind Regards, GL Elisabeth Carvalho: How are you? GL: Thanks for asking. I am on top of the world. Work is busy and very gratifying. Next week our second 3-million-dollar Linear Accelerator (for the production of X-rays) will be coming on line in our department. With it, among other things we will be able to do radio-surgery which is (bloodless) surgery using an X-ray knife. This has been done routinely for deep seated brain tumors. And now it is being applied for lung cancer among other sites. EC: How is the grandchild? GL: The grandchildren are doing great. Grandma is busy (actually having fun) with them in California rather than in New York. EC: The only thing I would like to add is that Dan Brown is neither a historian nor a theologian. He's a novelist. GL: Fictional novel are nice stories. It's like a fresh wind. For most of us that air is a passing moment in our life. For a few that air stays in their make-belief environment. EC: Far more damning books have been written about Christ by the likes of Freke or Gandy. The reason the Church routinely dismisses them without so much as a second thought is because they never make it to the mainstream. They are the companions of lonely agnostics such as myself on a journey of self-discovery. GL: I wish you (and other agnostics on Goanet) could respond to my post (a few days ago) which was in reply to Santosh Helelkar. And feel free to be more generous with your thoughts and response in giving your perspectives about absence of God. The agnostics are usually articulate about criticisms of other peoples' beliefs. Just a thought for you and other agnostics - During the solitary journey of discovery, Sorrow looks back, Worry looks around, and Faith looks up! EC: To me, the personal life of Jesus is as divorced from his message as Clinton's should have been from his politics. GL: I cannot make head or tail of this statement as it related to Jesus Christ or to Bill (I assume) Clinton. I should not assume you are referring to Bill, as Hillary is our fine New York senator and the likely next President of the USA. I need to let you on my bias - Even as a Republican, I love all three of them AND this includes their messages and their politics. For any true believer, the message should be in their personal life especially regarding what they believe. Or else they would be the biggest hypocrites to exists. EC: If the historical Jesus was crucified, in all likelihood given the severity of Roman crucifixions, he died. If he died, his Resurrection is irrelevant. Being God, he wouldn't need to make petty points to human beings by chauvinistically resurrecting himself in any form. It is only the human mind unable to come to terms with its own mortality that yearns for postmortem assurances. GL: Can you put this into plain English? Is your point that Jesus is not God like the Gnostics belief? Just asking to make sure what you are trying to mean. I have a problem with someone who does not believe in God, jumping three leaps in analyzing the nuances of a particular religion; or a belief in one or the other faith. Another pointer: Unless you can create the WHOLE universe, then perhaps giving "advice" to God, isn't such a good idea. In summary, as a friend, I applaud you for your thought process. It reminds me of the saying, "a turtle only makes progress when it sticks out its neck". And yet, standing in the middle of the road can be dangerous. One can get knocked down by the traffic from both ways. I look forward to your thoughts on the questions posed to Santosh. Please keep your writing and logic very simple and rational for a supurlo Goenkar like me.:=)) That should be easy, as agnostics claim they are very logical and rational people. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] I have a theory about men!
Since I working on your assignment on "I am back" post, I will let your other students / devotees respond to this post. Likely the guys who will respond to it will be thinking straight.:=)) Kind Regards, GL Elisabeth Carvalho: No this is not the controversial topic I promised but in the interests of science and philosophy, this is far more important. As a disclaimer, I admit that this theory isn't based on a large population survey, nor is it validated by any other specific statistical tool. It is just based on empirical evidence as observed by me. Men suffer from PDD an acronym for Penile Deficit Disorder. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Holy Warriors
Hi Eddie, Thanks for keeping us posted on Edna Fernandes' book Holy Warriors. I along with many Goans are delighted her book has made it on to the best seller's list. Hopefully many people are reading her three-year research material and are gaining much wisdom. Do you think the controversy on Goanet helped provide more publicity to the book?:=)) I am sure many Goans are proud of Edna and join her in celebrating her success. A few may have retracted into their holes and are awaiting the next tide to salvage them. :=)) I hope Edna's lead supporter on Goanet, Elisabeth has read your post and the British review of her book. Or else she may still be wading through her khatli potlis.:=)) Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] I'm back !!!
Hi Elisabeth, I am glad you found your thinking cap among all your Khatli Potlis.:=)) OK guys, now straighten up! Ms. Hutton is back.:=)) Missed Ya!!! I am definitely finished with Dan Brown story, though not the thread. This especially after watching a week of Da Vinci Code (or something like) that on the "History Channel". The general consensus of the series is Da Vinci Code is a fake with a little sprinkling of historical facts. This is nothing new as Dan Brown himself admits it. Yet, many confuse such fictional works with history and reference material. We all love a conspiracy story with love, sex and and intrigue. So please do not burn your Da Vinci Code book. :=)) Kind Regards, GL Elisabeth Carvalho Hi all, I'm back and missed you'll. we shall have to start on something new and utterly, butterly controversial. I'm putting my thinking cap on!! :)) _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
Hi Santosh, I assume your questions are genuine and you are seeking some answers. I am not into some "gotcha" exercise here and I trust you are not into some esoteric discussion. Thanks for asking me about the CONTEMPORARY issues that the "Church thinkers" are involved with. This, rather than discussing / referencing some 200-1000 year old theology, philosophy or practice patterns. I am obviously not an authority on the Church. As a practical person, and as I see it, the Church today is into LIVING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST rather than developing some theoretical concepts of God, angels, heaven, hell, devil, sin, etc, and that itself is a BIG CHANGE. Of course some outstanding and outspoken Christians and non-Christians are still "STUCK" on those issues. Your religion questions should have best been directed to and answered by persons who have spent their career in the field. It is like asking a theologian / philosophy professor about the advances in the last few decades in cancer. Likely they will tell you that there are no advances; as many many patients are still dying from cancer. There is obviously some humor here. Yet, the critics of religion are very similar to critics of medicine. I am going to do my best to be helpful. However if you or others keep rejecting my explanations, that is your choice. It is not my job to educate you about the Church or religion. While I'd like to help, I have neither the time nor the interest to convert you and them. My response (GL) follows each of your Santosh Helekar (SH) questions. --> GL: The Church too has "an expanding body of knowledge" and continues to do so. SH: Can you give me one or two specific examples in which our knowledge of something has been expanded by the Church in the last decade? GL's response: I have already given you a list of texts that you can refer to. The latest one is Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical Deus Caritas Est (God is Love) of 2006. From a practical perspective, the church has developed very thoughtful PERSPECTIVES on "web-of-life" concerns such as: Issues of social justice, immigration, just wages, discrimination, death penalty, conduct of wars, right to basic health care, dignity of dying, right to life and prolongation of life (separate issues), right to die and prolongation of death (separate issues), euthanasia, protection of the unborn, protection of the environment, etc. Many of these issues have been expanded on several occasions in the Catholic literature on "Orthopraxis" and "Canons" on social justice, and other issues which theologians call "Epikeia". Also the Church IMHO no longer holds to the belief that the Catholic Church is the only path to heaven. The church has changed its attitude toward suicide. If one does not believe in God, one may or may not understand and appreciate these perspectives of the Church. --- > GL: Like in science and medicine, some concepts in theology, philosophy, and ethics survive the test of time and others do not. SH: Which concept in theology has survived the test of time? And in which theology? GL response: Many teachings have survived the test of time and form the basis for new thinking in keeping with the advances in the sciences and society. From where I work, I am aware of much new thinking on "Prolonging Life" and "Prolonging Death". The importance of this was well demonstrated in the recent Terry Schiavo case in Florida. She of course is just one example. Similarly there has been much thought into the ethics of the fate of unused In-Vitro fertilized ova. More recently the religious thinking has expanded into the philosophy, safeguards and ethics into the nuances of cloning, stem cell research, gene manipulation and genetic bioengineering. While these are new issues, the original theology of sanctity of life endures. On a social level there are continuing issues of moral culpability and moral justice on which numerous popes and conferences of bishops have written many encyclicals and produced many documents. The latest is the Catholic Church's stand on helping immigrants, even if they are illegal, as spearheaded by the Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles. Once again, the Church is living its theology and philosophy. --> GL: So perhaps you need to keep an open mind just like the rest of us. SH: Open mind about what? Please explain. GL response: There is much shift in interfaith understanding and acceptance. This involves working through the theology, rituals, social practices and finer points of the tenants of different religions. Your closed mind mirrors some of those of the fundamental right. This, though you and OTHERS at times MAY THINK you-all are more concerned and knowledgeable about religious, social and morals issues than the Church. :=)) In summary, religion like medicine is a large encompassing field with a long history. So any
[Goanet] Fight over reservations
One of the major issue in the Indian news right now is access to education (albeit it is only one aspect of preferences). In fact, we should be happy that in India people want to be educated. So the government and the University Commission should NOT be restrictive on the expansion of educational institutions. Such an approach will help the students of all castes and at the same time create jobs for the teachers and adminstrators etc.. At higher levels of instructions, university education could even be a foreign currency earner for the country - as it is for many countries across the globe. So perhaps educated Indians (of all castes) should campaign for expansive and progressive programs (to grow the pie) instead of fighting over how to "divide the pie". Kind Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
Hi Marlon, Since you specifically asked for my review on "another confused work of fiction, also known as the bible", I thought I should respond. As I'm sure you know, I did not write the article about the "fact and fiction" on the Da Vinci Code. I just forwarded an article from FOX news related to this "hot topic". I am NOT an expert on the authenticity of the Bible since "aum ek supurlo Goenkar murre." However one of my quirks has led me to search the exact site / cause of disconnect Catholic Goans have with their religion. Based on the wording of your post, my guess is your disconnect with the Catholic Church appears to me to be related to about 60 - 120 AD when the Gospels were written. Unless "your beef" relates to the translation of the original texts. Or your beef may be with the Jews and the authenticity of the Old Testament. You may wish to clarify with SPECIFICS of your disconnect and research. BTW, even Martin Luther IMHO did not question the historical authenticity and accuracy of the Gospels. In fact after his break with the Church, he went on to translate them (original Gospel writings) into German. Regards, GL > On Sun May 14 13:42:49 PDT 2006, Marlon Menezes wrote: > > Gilbert, it reminds me of another confused work of fiction, also known as the > bible. How about giving us a review of this work of fiction! > _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Forwarded with Love! Kind Regards, GL >From Foxnews: Fact and Fiction: 'The Da Vinci Code' by Father Jonathan Morris Have you seen the double trapdoor through which "Da Vinci" critics are falling headfirst? It's hard to miss. Both flaps are adorned with tantalizing signs. The first says, "Burn the book, it's the devil." The second laughs mockingly or innocently, "Relax, it is just fiction, after all." Trapdoors always lead down. Here's looking up: Dan Brown's book is not the devil and it's not just fiction. He purports it to be a historic novel founded on scrupulous research. In reality, it is a devilish hodgepodge of well-disguised fiction and fact. His intentions were to confuse, and confuse he did. Sticking to our thesis that this phenomenon is a blessing in disguise for curious minds, today we'll unravel four of Brown's most tightly wound knots. Some of you expect me to preach, to set the story straight with a call to belief. You won't find that here. Nonetheless, a clear mind is the best soil for seeds of faith, and God knows, there's a lot of clearing to do. ART CLASS Fiction: Mr. Brown says it is Mary Magdalene seated to the right of Jesus, not John the Apostle, in Leonardo Da Vinci's painting, "The Last Supper." Fact: In his own "Treatise on Painting," Leonardo Da Vinci says the classic "student" should be shown as youthful, long-haired, and clean-shaven. He was true to this approach in his depiction of St. John, as the youngest of the apostles. Neither his contemporary artists nor reputable art historians have doubted his original intention. Fiction: The Da Vinci Code says Leonardo Da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" was an androgynous self-portrait whose title is a mocking anagram of two Egyptian fertility deities- "Amon and L'isa. Fact: It was commonly known at the time of the painting and today, that the "Mona Lisa" portrays a real woman, Madonna Lisa, the wife of Francesco de Bartolomeo del Giocondo. Summary: There is no historical evidence Leonardo Da Vinci used his paintings to reveal secrets or protest traditional beliefs. THE FORMATION OF THE BIBLE Fiction: The Da Vinci Code claims, "...The Bible as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great." (Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code, New York: Doubleday, 2003, p. 231) Fact: No Bible scholar holds Constantine played a role in the development of the Scriptures. The Old Testament canon (the first part of the Christian Bible) was already essentially developed at the time of Jesus and he and his disciples recognized its authority (Luke 24:27, John 5:39). By the late second century, the early Christian community recognized the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (written from approximately 60-120 A.D.) as the four inspired narratives of the life of Christ. Consensus about the contents of the entire New Testament was already growing by the middle of the second-century. The early Christian Fathers of the second century (Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus) refer to the four Christian gospels and their authors, and give them a unique place within worship (liturgy) and tradition. It was not until the late 300s and early 400s that regional councils of bishops began the process of official definition. Summary: Christian theology teaches the Bible was written, collated, and defined by human beings inspired by God. No major Christian tradition claims the process was magical. It is easier, not harder, to accept the presence of such inspiration when we consider the unity of Christian belief on essential points of Christian doctrine, despite the human, social, and political influences that could have hijacked its content and interpretation along the way. EARLY BELIEF IN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS OF NAZARETH Fiction: The Da Vinci Code claims that before the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, the followers of Jesus did not consider him divine. Listen in: "Until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by his followers as a mortal prophet...a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless. A mortal...By officially endorsing Jesus as the Son of God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity." (Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code, New York: Doubleday, 2003, p. 233) Fact: New Testament writings (written before the Council), early Church Fathers, and deliberations of the Council itself, show clearly the belief in the divinity of Christ. Here are a few quotatio
[Goanet] A New Beginning
--- * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * --- USDA certified Goa Sausages and other Goan foods can now be delivered to virtually any part of the world. http://www.goanfoods.com --- I make it a point to share my personal advice and experience with fellow Goans. And I hope the positive message will be helpful. Yet very likely, many respond saying, "This guy is dreaming". This world is full of dreams, if one works and is prepared for these dreams to come true. As a saying goes, "when the door is shut, a window is always open", only if one is prepared to enter through the window. For me life has been a series of windows. And it could not have been better planned and timed even if I had all the power to design it so. Yesterday, I wrote a post about Easter. I wished all the Goanetters, "Happy Easter to All! May the Easter Bunny bring you all many new eggs and new beginnings for the rest of the "Catholic calendar" which starts today." Guess what, my greeting returned to me? Not fully prepared, we had our own beginning to this New Catholic Year. Our granddaughter, that we were expecting in two weeks in California, decided to begin her new life on Easter Sunday. So we got a surprise gift, from the Easter bunny with a stork flying into our home, from the most unexpected quarters. So grandma and I will be flying to California and seeing her very very soon. To all the xamais and xapais, "May you get your Easter bunny too!" Kind Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Carmo's depiction of Mario
I understand Cornel's discomfort in using the "b b**" terminology.
That's likely, because Cornel is giving the Konkani idiom a literal English
translation.
That is however not fair to any native language which should be able to hold
on and use its own colorful colloquialism.
That's like the American phrase "your a** is grass" referring to being "dead-
meat" after a major "screw-up".
As was mentioned in the post, "B-B" colloquially means a "do nothing" person.
To Cornel and others with a vivid imagination, :=)) this phrase may be
replaced by B & B.:=))
In America we say the indiviudal is "sitting on his hands" which is not as
colorful as B & B.
So my English friends should not / will not "get their knickers in a twist"
about the B & B in amchi bhas.:=))
Kind Regards, GL
cornel writes:
I want to disassociate myself from the terminology ("b b**") used by
Carmo in relation to Mario. On reflection, I can't believe that this can be
acceptable on Goanet. It simply lowers the tone of any discourse,
irrespective of Mario being challenging at times.
[Goanet] Global Goans
-- | Read V.M. de Malar's latest Column: | || | Politics of Destruction | || | http://www.goanet.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=416 | -- Floriano has discredited not one but two NRG / Goan global organizations as seen from his post (below). I do not want to get into this discussion, since I am ignorant of the issues in Goa. There is bound to be a back and forth. We are already seeing this. To me the take-home message for the Diaspora Goans is simple. It sounds very altruistic to try and help Goa and native Goans. But distance and time make it very difficult. More over sooner rather than latter, the well-intentioned efforts are likely to be contaminated by some unscrupulous individuals. For Diaspora Goan leaders who undertake these efforts / leads the groups, this would be embarrassing (for a minimum), be a victim of gossip, or a LEGAL LIABILITY. Not to mention the disappointment of his / her friends and supporters who participated in the endeavor. I have personanlly experienced this let-down from my own donation. So Diaspora Goans should work hard and cooperatively to promote their culture and community in their own backyard, in their own country. This is not necessarily easy given the poor quality of leadership and factionalism we have among Diaspora groups, in spite of our education and sophistication. I do not understand why Rene did not build this global association as an extension of the WGD. Perhaps he tried but the self-centered Diaspora leaders showed no interest to expand and grow into a global association. Kind Regards, GL Floriano Lobo: Goasuraj Our only warning to Mr. Rene Barrtto is to lay-off from selling the Global Goans in the hands of the RSS. Grow-up Mr. Rene Barreto. Will you? Goa has a last chance to come out of the fudge that we Goans have created over the centuries by being self-centered and by displaying our one-upmanships for our own vested goods. Let us now collectively join-up together to save our own skins before they are put up on the drying line by the RSS goons going around in sheepÂs clothing. We at goasuraj had tough time in admonishing Mr. Jaime Rebello and his colleagues from inaugurating the song and dance NRI Forum at LeonoraÂs at Verna very recently. Now we find that you are a busy-bee in selling the Global Goans to the RSS lock-stock and barrel.
[Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Hi Savika, I have not seen your posts before on any other thread. Your initial post received the usual "hammer and nail" response. I hope you get my zest. From your recent response, you have weathered the hammers; and the head of the nail refuses to budge. So I guess, you are committed and serious about doing something good for Goa's political process. I do not live in Goa. But I have enough gray hair to help you (and other Goans) understand how democracy and elections work. If you think you can show up on election day and vote for the "honest candidate", you and others are mistaken. If you are serious, join the political party of your choice and understand the issues. Participate in the political dialogue before and after the elections. Be a candidate for (small) local offices, even though you can be "Goa's best CM" in your first public office.:=)) Don't waste your time with wild political allegations of corruption etc.. If there is political corruption, expose it, with specifics! Minimally write a letter to the superior and then the editor of the local newspaper. Just writing posts on Goanet are for old fogies like me (and a few others).:=)) :=)) Political activism is not reserved to just election day. Remember, in a democracy, the people are ruled by individuals they deserve / elect. For now you can show our activism on the single most important economic issue to North Goa and perhaps the whole of Goa - MOPA. One very intelligent Goaneter recently wrote, "I would be for MOPA if there was not so much corruption with it." Does the corruption change / reduce the economic value of MOPA for Goa and Goans? Should North Goans suffer because some politicians used the project to "make hay while the sun shines"? Refusing Rs. 100 crores from New Delhi for a modern new airport would only be undertaken by Goans on too much Feni saying, "Naka ree Saiba".:=)) Kind Regards, GL Savika Gomes 1) Manoj.great perspectivenow, can u please list out the good guys, the so called "honest candidates"? 2) JC (in reference to my reply in "savika gomes's excuse me in RED"), "On the EVE OF ELECTION voters r treated for SORRO and CHICKEN and such votes r for grabs" - this is the Disease that we have to cut away from our system and bury six feet under/submit to flames..It is definitely us who are to be blamed, for encouraging candidates to resort to this practice for every electionsis there any stopping to this exercise? Will the candidates dare to even contest elections if we goans were strong enough to close our doors to entertaining these thugs? but, we being the educated lot that we are, and having so much knowledge of our candidates, still resort to shamelessly voting and electing a thug! 3) It is definitely time to change but how is the change is going to take place with "Faleiro's" and "Alemao's" and "Rane's" still at the helm of the coup? 4) Manoj : "Looted" is Pass� - our MP's and MLA's have gang raped our Goa! Manoj wrote : "If only GOANS elect the HONEST CANDIDATES AT THE TIME OF ELECTIONS,half the battle is won.GOANS r voting on communla lines,On the EVE OF ELECTION voters r treated for SORRO and CHICKEN and such votes r for grabs. And then what do u expect,such elected candidates who spent money to get elected will work for the development of Goans and Goa. Goans will continue dying in the road accidents and OUR MPS will utilise MP FUND to build subways at Verna and Nuvem only to fill up their pockets. Goans are looted by our elected MPS and MLA's ."
[Goanet] Re: Heros & Hypocrites
It is not my intent to embarass or enter into a controversy with this prolific writer. But this author (and other Indian scribes) may be better served to be more focused (in their writing) and less verbose. I sometimes to the same thing. Only to have the editor of a newspaper or journal respond that my article will be accepted if I reduced the word count by 50%. I would like to offer the same suggestion to this writer. Again no slight intended. Just a suggestion to improve another Goan's prose and skill. Kind Regards, GL HEART TO HEART (FEB 12, 2006 - Herald) By Ethel Da Costa The Politics of Ego Management Nail me to the tree for being blunt, but baby, I'm party to this gate-crashing, nose snooping number (whether I like it or not), every single day of my life, simply because I invariably get to see the underbelly of a person behind the face eventually. It will probably shorten my life span, more, following close encounters with the snob kind, laced with ego, zero on integrity, liar to the core with a public image that could chase Dettol out of the market.
[Goanet] Experience of writing a novel (part 3/3)
es team. Team Utica overcomes many challenges to reach the top rung of the sport. Uticas autograph culinary delight is Italian Greens" made with escarole, prosciutto, peppers, cheese and bread crumbs. In fact Utica as second autograph dish called and "Chicken Riggies". Any city with its own signature dishes cannot be Dullsville. The February 2006 Winter Olympics in Turin, Italy, will no doubt draw world attention to curling. After reading On Thin Ice, the sport will be even more enjoyable. ABOUT THE AUTHORS Meena and Gilbert Lawrence make a wife-husband writing team. They were born in Bombay (Mumbai), India, where they completed their postgraduate studies. They immigrated to the U.S. in 1977 and live in Utica, New York. Meena is a reporter and a human interest feature writer. Gilbert is a physician. On Thin Ice - ISBN 1-59113-826-4 (Publisher Booklocker Inc.) Web page for book reviews: http://www.booklocker.com/books/2194.html
[Goanet] Experience of writing a novel (part 1/3)
The following is a three part series, given my penchant for not writing long e- mail posts. The following appeared on the web page Writers' Weekly - a US based webpage that caters to American writers. Those interested in writing could review this weekly web page (revamped every Wednesday) for serious tips on and about writing. Part 2 and 3 will follow over the next few days. EXPERIENCE of writing a novel in America (part 1 / 3) We'd like to share with the readers the experience of our recently published first novel On Thin Ice. The creative process was such a rewarding one for us we hope we can encourage others to contemplate a similar endeavor. Nearly every one has a story to tell - the challenges and the triumphs, the laughter and the tears, the acceptance of American ways and the dogged adherence to traditional ways. Our novel is not an autobiography. It took us about six months to write and it went through umpteen revisions, drafts and editing. Thanks to modern word processing technology, this wasn't difficult. The approximately 74,000-word novel was a labor of love and satisfaction. BACKGROUND The main character in On Thin Ice is an Asian-Indian-American; the setting is the scenic countryside of upstate New York, a social microcosm which is replicated in cities and towns across the North American continent. As the tale unfolds, East meets West in the myriad interactions between newer and older Americans who become neighbors in a multi-ethnic community. Asian migration to the U.S. and Canada has been significant over the last fifty years. Asians have been well absorbed into their new environment, adding to the country's rich cultural tapestry and achievements. In "The Ballad of East and West" Rudyard Kipling, the British author, born and raised in Colonial India, claimed that "East is east and West is west; and never the twain shall meet"¦. When two strong men stand face to face, tho "they come from the ends of the earth!" This novel negates his well renowned stand. THE STORY The contemporary fictional novel depicts the many winter activities available in this part of the North American continent, including ice-hockey, downhill and cross-country skiing, snow-shoeing, snowmobiling, curling, and all the pleasures associated with them. The main character, Atul Reddy (AR), is an Indian-American physician who lives and works in Utica, New York. Through his professional and sporting interests, Dr. Reddy weaves and links together the ethnic communities and residents of this mid-sized American city. The novel describes how this former resident of the tropics learns, adapts and excels at winter sports - all because of his American-born children. AR's sporting interests gravitate towards curling - a winter sport popular in Utica, thanks to early Scottish-Irish immigration to this region. AR's curling team, comprising Americans of different ethnic backgrounds, advances in the U.S. curling league. Team Utica becomes Team USA. It defeats the Canadians in the North American Championship game. The Uticans take on the Russians who are the European Champions. The Continental Cup gathers national and world attention and becomes a repetition of the Miracle on Ice event at Lake Placid, exactly twenty-five years earlier. Having achieved their nirvana, Team USA receives accolades from across the U.S. and from various ethnic groups that honor the team members who share their heritage. AR also goes on to accept tributes from his birthplace, Mumbai (Bombay). That's where the secret to AR's skill at curling is finally uncovered. ABOUT THE AUTHORS Meena and Gilbert Lawrence make a wife-husband writing team. They were born in Bombay (Mumbai), India, where they completed their postgraduate studies. They immigrated to the U.S. in 1977 and live in Utica, New York. Meena is a reporter and a human interest feature writer. Gilbert is a physician. On Thin Ice - ISBN 1-59113-826-4 (Publisher Booklocker Inc.) Web page: http://www.booklocker.com/books/2194.html
[Goanet] Dr. Garcia de Orta - the other view
-- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | -- Alfred DeMello's web article and my own interest in GOA'S INQUISITION (not European Inquisition) tempted me to do more research on an often quoted figure in Goa's history - Garcia de Orta. My interpretation of the events leads me to differnt conclusions on Dr. Garcia de Orta. This man was a Catholic - not a Jew. His ancestors were Jewish. (So one cannot accuse him of breaking the law by eating pork). Dr. Orta was a rich and well-read man having been a professor at Coimbra University "Amchem Tempar". In 1534 he sailed to India - some claim he fled Portugal because of the inquisition against Jews - false again! WITH the "por favor" of the Portuguese authorities in Goa, Dr. Orta did very well for himself as will be seen below. So likely he immigrated, like most do, for economic reasons. Goa must have been an adeventure for this enterprising and multi-talented man. On coming to India, Dr. Orta had an interest in herbal medicine having written a book on medicinal plants of Goa. Likely this interest was stimulated by looking as what the (Goan) natives did in treating illness before western medicine came to India. With his publications and his theoretical explanations / propounding of the effectiveness of these herbal remedies, he ran afoul of "official" medical practice of the period in the world. There was no one to challenge his theories in Goa/ India and he flourished as a "great dotor" to the colonizers. In Goa he became very very rich - as a smart doctor and also as someone interested in semi-precious stones. He had plenty of influence in the Portuguese / Goan courts, not withstanding his Jewish heritage. Due to his influence and the Portuguese Governadors "por favor" he was rewarded the Island of Bombay where he lived - before the same island was given to the British Royalty. With his affluence and influence he brought his to-be-bride, a relative (a much frowned practice) and later other family members - just like one would do in later periods and today. Again none of this had anything to do with the Inquisition in Portugal or the "forced fleeing" by those with Jewish heritage. Dr. Garcia de Orta died of natural causes. However he was brought before the inquisition after his death. His body was exhumed and burnt at the stake - an undeniable fact. His (Goan) supporters claim this was because he was crypto-Jew (Marrano). More likely in my opinion - Dr. Garcia was perceived to be a spy actually a double-agent whose luck ran out after his death! As one interested in herbal medicine and semi-precious stones - because of or as an excuse, he often visited the courts of the neighboring (Muslim) Nizams the mortal / military enemies of the Portuguese (during that period). As one Jewish authority remarked - Dr. Orta was living a double life. His wife had venereal disease - an uncontested fact - and there are theories how she got it. Burning a dead person at the stake is an abhorrent practice and a lot better than burning live people at the stake. The punishment handed-out to Dr. Orta and a few others who were dead, was to serve as a deterrence to the living that "Justice can catch-up with you even after you are dead." This is no different than the thinking through the ages about the role of Capital Punishment. As a physician, was Dr. Orta's work great? The answer is NO! We know today that India's herbal medicine has no scientific basis and has not stood the test of time. There are less than 10 plants whose extracts may have some medicinal benefit. So Dr. Orta's "scientific" writings and studies like the "other" medicine of the period was just hocus-pocus. This post is not a defense of the Inquisition. Some claim that I deny the existence of the Inquisition in Goa. Not surprising, they do not read my writings well. The above is just my "inquiring mind" probing little known historical facts of Goa in my spare time. Those with "inquiring minds" are encouraged to do their own research & analysis and share them. Kind Regards, GL --- * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * --- Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2005 Christmas Package - Flowers, Bubbles and Layers of Love. http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ -
[Goanet] Antartica Expedition
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Hi Helga, Read your nice post about your party on ice and that the Emperor's left you ladies out in the cold. Of course with your husband there, you had a knight in shinning armour. Did the Emperors use good judgement? Smart thinking.:=)) To those in your crowd who did not have their Knights, the Emperors figured they could'nt take these damsels home. Now they may be even smarter than humans.:=)) Kind Regards, GL -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet] Thank you Silviano Barbosa
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Nice post and thanks for moving this conversation forward. Hopefully this will be a productive dialogue. Perhaps as a first step to promote Goan books is for the new G.O.A.N. organization to do / encourage a compilation of all books by Goan authors that are currently available for sale in the North American Continent. This will also provide you a list of volunteers /authors available. A similar effort could be undertaken in Europe by a Goan organization in UK or Portugal; and a similar process in the Middle East. Would like to hear any further suggestions. Kind Regards, GL George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thank you Silviano Barbosa - THE SIXTH NIGHT I was thrilled to receive my autographed copy of the book, THE SIXTH NIGHT, by Silviano Barbosa yesterday. See details of the book at http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/2004-December/021702.html A friend brought it down from Toronto and gave it to me. I have gone through some of the book and find it hard to put down. I hope Goans continue to support Goan authors. In 2003, Goa Sudharop arranged with Gilbert Lawrence to have his book distributed at the North American Reunion. Without incurring too much additional time on their already limited volunteer time and resources, Goan organization should work out with Goan authors a delivery mechanism for books which is fair to all, making it a win-win for everyone. Additionally, we have invited Goan authors Peter Nazareth and Victor Rangel Rebeiro to speak at a future function. -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet] Little known facts about SFX
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- There have been many posts on the life of SFX. And this is a good time for Diaspora Goans to read these posts and get an e-mail equivalent of a "sermaum" which likely will be delivered at each mass in all churches in Goa today the Feast Day of Goencho Saib. The following summarizes and amazes me about the work of SFX. His missionary life in the East was 10 only years. (He died at the young age of 45). He spent about 3 years in India. He spent only 10 months in Goa. Yet he traveled more and touched more souls than St. Paul. That's why he is the Patron Saint of the missionaries. What will not be mentioned in the Goan churches: The claims about SFX link to the Inquisition (as we know about the Inquisition today and which was introduced to Goa 17 years after SFX died) are false. And SFX's writings are taken out of context in referrence to the inquisition. SFX was very pro-native Goan often incurring the wrath of the Portuguese authorities - military, civilian and religious. His writings to the Portuguese King and his own Jesuit superiors strongly condemned the Portuguese (White European) actions against the natives (Goans). In his letters, he spoke about the appalling social and moral behavior of the colonists - drinking, robbing, multiple mistresses and prostitution. Consider how difficult it was to promote Christ and Catholic faith to the natives "when your own kind / Christ's followers" are behaving like this. :=)) By far one of the most common causes of death among the Portuguese in Goa was Syphilis in the 16 and 17 century (pre-penicillin era). Even during the inquisition, SYPHILIS killed a lot more Portuguese than the Inquisition which was introduced to enforce more stricter morals and behavior codes on the Portuguese military and civilian authorities. It is my analysis that this may have been one major reason, native Goans (Catholic and Hindu) "looked down" on the (white) Portuguese and social contact including marriage with them was frowned. That was a cultural trait developed by the natives to protect themselves and their society from these western (STD) diseases. Kind Regards, GL -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet] Re: Remembering the life and legacy of St. Francis Xavier on December 3
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Hi Jose, Read you post and followed the doctor's good advice to check out the new web site regarding SFX. Only becasue you requested a critical reappraisal of the editorial I am sending you this. In the editorial on that site, you rightly condemn those critical of SFX. And you identify the few who falsely accuse him of introducing the inquisition to Goa. Yet with deep humility it is the Catholics who FALSELY ACCUSE the saint of bringing inquisition to Goa. The recent written web link making that false allegation which I read was on your own TGF web site. Please check the web page written by your good friend Alfred D'Mello on Garcia de Orta. Like the reference to SFX, there are a few other facts in that write-up that are incorrect both regarding Garcia de Orta as well as the inquisition. No one responded to my question on the Goan web site seeking confirmation / reference to the statistics quoted in this article. I trust you will edit that web page to reflect the true facts. Kind Regards, GL jose colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: = Dear all, The TGF website at http://www.colaco.net has been updated for the feast tomorrow (Dec 3) of St. Francis Xavier Your critical appraisal of the 'front page' editorial is welcome Sincerely jc _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet] Remo and IFFI
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- I was surprised to read the post on Remo's reactions vis-a-vis IFFI In many respect it reflects a typical Goan reaction. But who are hurt by Remo's actions? 1. The charitable causes that his donation supported last year and this year if he had participated in the events. 2. The many Goans whose livelihood depends on tourism (conservatively - 30% of Goa's economy). 3. Goan image - that Goa cannot pull-off a national meeting / festival. 4. If the next IFFI is not held, that's Rs- 100 crore less in Goa's economy and the lakhs individual visitors spend during their stay in Goa. The only peeve of Remo that I would agree with is that IFFI exacerbates the garbage problem that Goa has still to resolve. It is NOT the job of the government to provide hospitals to Goans. The same applies to schools. These are consumer-related enterprises that are best left to the private sector (indiviudal and collected Goans) as in the rest of India. I am only pointing this out because Goans always expect someone else to meet their needs and then they complain about the lousy job / service delivered. Ues it is the job f the governemnt ot provide good roads, adequate water adn electricity. But to do so it needs money ani poixe. Wake up Remo and Goans who think like him! The era of a Patrao ani Godfather taking care of Goans is over. And PLEASE do not "cut your nose to spite your face." If one is really annoyed about the ploliticans ruling Goa, the next elections will be comming shortly. Run for the office. That's democracy. Kind Regards, GL News about Remo: In a strident tone directed against the Goa International Film Festival of India (IFFI), the music icon says film festivals are important but so are schools and hospitals. Remo, who slammed his doors on the IFFI by rejecting an offer to perform at Thursday's opening ceremony, has just stopped short of saying 'pack that stuff'. "I am not against IFFI in anyway. But look at the broken benches at Goa's schools and the broken windows of its hospitals. They are in stark contrast to the state-of-the-art Inox theatre showing the films," said Remo, who is staying away from the film fiesta in his state, which has become the permanent IFFI venue this year. The star of such successful albums as 'Goan Crazy!' and 'Pack that Smack', says between last year's IFFI and this year's, the government did nothing to improve the state's infrastructure. "Senior citizens had to walk on the highway between Panaji and Miramar at the risk of their lives because the work on the pavement blocks were not done during the whole year," he says. Remo says while he is not protesting against the IFFI, he wants to look at it on a human scale. "Before you spend on festivals you spend on people. It is about priorities." By hosting an international festival, he says, the authorities have proved that they are capable of doing things though the general perception about the government is that it is incapable of doing anything better. -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet] Patron Saint of Goa
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- St. Francis Xavier is NOT and has never been Patron Saint of Goa. Another one of those Goan misconceptions.:=) SFX title was and is "Goencho Saib". >From the time Albuquerque won the battle for Goa on the feast of St. Catherine >of Alexandria (obviously prior to St. Francis Xavier) to the year 2000, the >Patron Saint of Goa was St. Catherine. As correctly pointed out by others, >when Padre Jose Vaz was made Blessed in 2000, he was made the Patron Saint of >Goa replacing St. Catherine. Unfortunately not many Goans, especially diaspora Goans, know Blessed Joseph Vaz and his current affiliation with Goa. And those who know, celebrate Bl. Joseph Vaz's feast "privately". So instead of complaining about Sri Lanka or the Pope, Disapora Goans should make the best of what we have, rather than do "kerem-kerem" about what we perceive we do not have. Pl. Make plans for Januray! Kind Regards, GL Oscar & Hazel Lobo: Most of our Goans when we celebrate the feast of St. Francis Xavier on 03 December we mention him as the Patron Saint of Goa. In Konkani we call him Goencho Saab and or Goencho Pai. I thought St. Catherine was the Patron Saint of Goa. Can someone please clarify this as many of us continue to mention St. Francis Xavier as the Patron Saint of Goa. Oscar Lobo -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet] Teaching Course about India and Goan culture
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- I would encourage Diaspora members of Goanet to volunteer to give a course to your community or college and educate them about India and Goa. I recently completed my four session / week lecture series to MVILR (Mohawk Valley Institute Learning in Retirement) at SUNY (State University of New York). The topics were Indian History, Culture, Comparative Culture, Economy. I had a great satisfaction doing so, and learnt a lot in the process of making my power-point presentation. You are also likely to receive the following comments from your listeners as I did. Kind Regards, GL = DR. GILBERT LAWRENCE --- THANK YOU SO MUCH We so much appreciated your time and effort. It was great! My geographic horizon has bee significantly widened with a deep appreciation of the development of India. Thank you very much for giving your time to inform us about this great country. Thanks for your interest in teaching us about India. Your classes has been interesting and informative. Simply ... a wonderful class. We are more knowledgeable for having heard you. I was a pleasure to meet somebody who cared. Very informative! It was a most interesting and fascinating course which every one enjoyed. Brought India to the attention of the people. So very interesting. It opened my eyes into learning about modern India. Your class has provided a wonderful opportunity for us to better understand and learn about India, its people , culture, etc. Thank you so much!
[Goanet] Re: St. Francis Xavier
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- No news on any Goan cyber-space outlets about the Goan Diaspora associations celebrating the feast of St. Francis Xavier in the North American Continent. Kind Regards, GL Alfred de Tavares Novena to St. Francis Xavier - The Novena of Grace This novena prayer, although short is sufficient. It would be better of course to add, if time permits, three Hail Marys or say five times the Our Father, Haily Mary and Glory be to the Father, or to use some of the many well-loved novena prayers from other sources. Remember that prayers must be said with the lips in order to gain the indulgences. This novena begins on November 24 and ends on December 3.
[Goanet] Goa, Pearl of the Orient?
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- OK! So the truth lies between what you see in the ad and what you read from the chronic complainers on Goanet. That's not too difficult to figure out. Regards, GL Patrice Riemens: Never saw a lobster either - but that must be a question of what French call 'budgetary choices'. Same applies for king prawns (I saw prawns, but they were more like 'knights' - or for 'giant' pomfrets. This writer must have some imagination to spare (or a lot of dough). There is currently a ludicrous ad for Goa running on BBC world. Outperforming the evergreen "Malaysia, truly Asia" in hype in a way that is absolutely stunning. My problem was that I could not figure out that it possibly could be Goa (think faktap infrastructure and tarnished coastline) but for the fact that it said it was. But may be things have changed in an extraodinary way for the good over the last four years. How comes it's not the impression I gather from reading GoaNet? cheers from Shanghai, patrizio & Dnooos! On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:09:10AM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > >2. India's Pearl of Orient! (domnic fernandes) >
[Goanet] Re: Dev Borem Korum
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Thank you Goanet! My thanks to Goanet administration, and very especially Bosco D'Mello, for the very artistic web page on "On Thin Ice". His handiwork can be seen on: http://www.goanet.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=242 This was done from the goodness of their heart without any request and for no remuneration. So Goanet is more than verbal wrestling. Goanet administration is truly into connecting Goans all over the world. These guys and gals "walk the talk." Dev Borem Korum! Regards, Gilbert A. Lawrence,
[Goanet] PLANT UTSAV 2005
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Curiosity got the better of me to check the write up on Garcia da Orta as posted on the web link provided. Can any one confirm for me the statistic quoted in this article preferably with references to the following statement in the post: Goa's inquisition ."which sent to the stake, more than 39,000 people"? I would assume that "sent to the stake" means "put to death" by the Inquisition. When I wrote to Alfred D'Mello requesting details about his Inquisition statistics and its source, I did not receive a reply. Another interesting fact in this article (see below) is the people that were "sent to the stake" in Goa - Catholics Thanks! Kind Regards, GL Miguel Braganza > Garcia da Orta was a botanist who recorded the plants available in and around > Goa hundreds of years ago. Gabriel de Figueiredo For those wanting more information on this great man, please visit http://www.colaco.net/1/AdmOrta.htm and http://www.vidaslusofonas.pt/garcia_da_horta2.htm. Quote from the post from colaco.net P.S. For those who are not acquainted, the Inquisition in Goa lasted 252 years, from 1560 until 1812, and were it not for the fact that Goa was occupied militarily by the British during the Napoleonic wars, I believe that the British had a lot to do, to banish this iniquitous organization, which sent to the stake, more than 39,000 people, not only "new Christians" (marranos), but also many Goans who had been Christianized, and were unjustly accused of venerating in secret their ancient gods Alfredo de Mello, June 15, 1999
[Goanet] The Big Chill
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- This evening I had the good fortune to watch on the History Channel, a TV documentray entitled "The Little Ice age - the Big Chill". This was the climate change which affected Europe from 1300 to 1850. This period coincided with and the TV program suggests led to / aggravated the many other problems that Europe faced during this period including the famines, epidemics, wars and Inquisition. Perhaps a 100 years from now, the current turmoil in the world would also be labeled on world temperature and environment changes rather than on oil, Islamo-fascist, or fits of freedom, etc. Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Fists of Freedom and Goa
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Some may consider this thread as irrelevant to Goa and Goans. However many readers that are following this dialogue from a "Goa perspective" will find a few similarities to the situation in Goa. Thus one can engage in this dialogue without offending any segments of Goan society, yet gaining useful parallels. Marlon makes a valuable point from a "macro perspective" of the lack of access to education and opportunities to "major segments of the under-class." However in a "free society" individuals can beat the odds of their class, with hard work and diligence. There are many examples among Goans, black and all shades of white Americans who have made it in spite of the system. The Germans and Japanese as a nation did it after world War II. No immigrant group who came to America was handed "a silver spoon in their mouth". Most came with 10-100 dollars in their pocket. Individual Goans (and others) have succeeded even when they lost one of their parents at a very young age. Thus economics and access may be just one factor. There are other factors "within our reach" that can help individuals succeed. That is a "value system" of the individual and his/her community. And that may explain India's sucess after independence compared to many other countries sucess after their independence. And of course the same applies to the many Diaspora groups, the best example being Jews. Tragically in spite of modern societies' progress, community groups may be loosing their "value system". Instead they attempt to "blame others" as one sees in the riots and protests in USA, Europe and South America. That (riots, violence and blaming others) is unlikely to solve the problem. In Goa, the new generation of tomorrow's outcaste is growing everyday with the "school dropouts" due to perhaps a loss of the "value system" even though ther is no lack of opportunities and / or funding. Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Goans and references
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Hi Cornel, Thanks for your response; though I am not sure what is the disagreement. The book that these two authorities wrote on the planetary system was for nincompoops like me. If I wanted / was capable of checking the references (if provided), then I should NOT be reading a book written for amateurs. I should be reading the original scientific papers, do my own research and homework and I should know how to go about finding the references. We can agree to disagree. Your perspective is one from a college environment where you teach students to write. In their education, whatever they write should be researched and referenced. Hence I agree with you here. My perspective is one of "been there and done that" with teaching, writing more that 60 scientific papers in peer reviewed journals (all referenced) and many articles for the lay person (none referenced). Now it is nice to know that other knowledgeable and scientific people also do the same as me. I do not see any references in articles in Time, Newsweek, Business Journal, Wall Street Journal, The Economist, Business Week, The London Times, The Guardian, etc., etc.,!!! Kind Regards, GL Gornel Hi Gilbert, I have to disagree with you that a book about the planetary system and solar space is OK without references. Regards, Cornel Gilbert Lawrence Subject: [Goanet] Goans and references
[Goanet] Goans and their literature
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Lately Goan "leaders" are encouraging Goans to write books. Some are telling NRI Goans to write or encourage others to write books albeit in Konkani. This is no different than few others like Tony Barretto encouraging Goans to "write anything". Yet I beg to ask how many of these Goans including our "leaders" have a personal library of "Goan books by Goan authors", unless of course it is related to their work? Recently an older relative in New Jersey, USA, due to retirement was "downsizing" her home. She wanted to get rid of her library, so I offered to buy all of her Goa-related books. This modestly rich "aum Goemkar" had not a single Goa-related book. I am afraid this is not an exception. And of course, my constant beef that WGD celebrations, (and other Goan socials) with all their repeated posts and hoopla, do very little to actually promote, make available for sale and purchase "Goan" books at their functions. Kind Regards, GL Fred Noronha: More entrepreneurs need to enter the field of creating and marketing cultural products (including books) that reach the audiences. Rather than doing everything oneself and re-inventing the wheel, it makes sense to build alliances with others who are working on parallel tracks. Both Cip and AVF promised to take back the message to their respective regions. One debate focussed on the need for a Roman script Konkani dictionary that is inclusivist in approach to the different dialects and words used by actual speaker-communities. From Kuwait came a cheque of Rs 25,000 for the fledging Dalgado Konkani Academi, whose goal is promoting roman script Konkani. Others present would have their own perspectives, to add to the understanding of what was discussed and what is possible.
[Goanet] Goans and references
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- I am currently reading a book written for the lay person / amateurs entitled: NEAREST STAR - The surprising science of our sun. Authors: Leon Golub and Jay M. Pasachoff. The authors are astrophysicist at Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and Field Memorial Professor of Astronomy at Williams college- a veteran of 31 solar eclipses, respectively. The book should be of interest to any Goan interested in the planetary system and solar space. The book is written for the lay person, but with a fair amount of science. It caught my eye, that this book does not have a single reference. Goans and Goanetters often have the habit for asking for / insisting on references on some messages posted in cyber-Goa. This book reinforces that the responsibility of references lies on the shoulders of the person contradicting the post to prove that what has been posted / written is wrong. Often some armchair Goans want others to provide them with all the facts, "references" and research. The only time references are needed (to new and controversial issues) is, if it is a scientific paper or a thesis. Of course this does not mean one believes all one reads on cyber Goa. As we all know there are some honest errors on minutiae, as well as some "lagao bhathi." Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Constitution, Contribution and Compassion
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Hi Mario, Cornell, and many others Rather than clubbing each other on the plight of the downtrodden, perhaps a more intellectual discussion is what Indians can contribute today to the societies we live in. A good basis to start that discussion may be "On Thin Ice". Parts of the book can be read on line on the webpage (Link below). Please feel free to share your thoughts / review on the book. The novel where "East meets West" highlights the contributions of Indians in the U.S.. The funniest-serious novel you'll ever read. The story helps understand: European and Asian ethnic groups. Asian-Indians in America and in India. The charm of Mumbai. The golden past of New York State. And enjoy the competitive sport of Curling. ON THIN ICE by Meena Lawrence & Gilbert Lawrence Published by Booklocker.com, Inc. ISBN 1 - 59113 - 826 - 4 URL link at http://www.booklocker.com/books/2194.html Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Novel by Goans released in America
-- | Add your name to the CLEAN GOA INITIATIVE | || | by visiting this link and following the instructions therein | || | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/033926.html | -- Novel by Goans released in America ON THIN ICE - an American contemporary fictional novel written by Meena Lawrence and Gilbert Lawrence has just been released in the U.S. by Booklocker Publishers. The hero, Atul Reddy is from Mumbai. Among the many support stars in the novel is Joseph Fernandes. There is a conversation in Romi Konkani when the hero returns back to Mumbai. In fact, Joe holds the secret to the success of the main hero. Please read the book to unlock the details. ON THIN ICE is a story about an Indian-American living in Utica, a small city in upstate New York. Winters form the backdrop for his varied sporting interests - skiing, ice hockey, and curling. The novel describes how this former resident of the tropics learns, adapts and excels at these sports. His curling team, comprising Americans of different ethnic backgrounds, advances in the U.S. curling league. Team Utica becomes Team USA. They defeat the Canadians in the North American championship. The Uticans take on the Russians who are the European Champions. The Continental Cup gathers national and world attention, a repetition of the "Miracle on Ice" event at New York's Lake Placid twenty-five years earlier. Team USA receives accolades from across the U.S. and various ethnic groups which honor the team members who share their heritage. The Indian player additionally goes on to accept tributes from his birthplace of Mumbai (Bombay), where the secret to success is discovered. The funniest-serious East meets West novel you'll ever read. The novel blends U.S., Indian, medical and sports-related humor. The story highlights: European and Asian ethnic groups Asian-Indians in America and in India Cancer treatments and outcomes Physicians and Radiation Oncologists The charm of Mumbai The golden past of New York State And enjoy the competitive sport of Curling. ON THIN ICE by Meena Lawrence & Gilbert Lawrence The book may be available at your library The book is also available as an e-book Published by Booklocker.com, Inc. ISBN 1 - 59113 - 826 - 4 URL link at http://www.booklocker.com Or order from your favorite bookstore. Write with comments to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please feel free to forward this information to your colleagues, friends and relatives. -- | 1st Young Goans International Essay contest 2005 | || | Theme: WHAT CAN I DO FOR GOA | | More details at| | http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2005-October/034190.html| --
[Goanet] Arun Sinha's book on Goa
Looks like this is a good book about Goa and Goans. After the "bhaile" does the research and presents the facts, many smart Goans may want the "outsider" to even come up with the solution and the "magic" formula. Of course the magic formula would help - as another solution / topic (from outsiders) for the Goans to pontificate and condemn. Kind Regards, GL GOA INDICA : A CRITICAL PORTRAIT OF POSTCOLONIAL GOA by Arun Sinha. Bibliophile South Asia in association with May be Sinha should have mooted some such formula in his summing up.
[Goanet] Goans fiddling while Goa is drowning.
Hi Vivian and others, Perhaps you-all missed my post (written shortly after Wendell's plea) on goanet. My suggestion is what Mahatma Gandhi would likely have done. No speeches, no letter writing, no posts. Just ACTION. I had suggested EVERY Sunday, at 2:00 PM, Goans led by Wendell and / or Margaret and other leaders lead a MORCHA to Government house in Panaji till the problem is solved. The same is repeated in every village that has the problem. In villages where there are tourist hotels, the morcha proceeds on to the tourist hotels FOR A ONE HOUR SIT-IN. Soon help will be on its way! To date, I have not seen any response / action to my suggestion. Just more posts. The action plan suggested has NO COST, just coordination, participation and leadership. Kind Regards, GL Vivian D'Souza: Kudos to Wendell, Margaret Mascarenhas, Helga, Floriano Lobo, Melinda and countless others who are fighting the battle to control the garbage situation in our beautiful Goa. We need help, from everyone. Goans in Goa and the Goan diaspora. The Goa government has disingenously, "passed the buck" as far as garbage disposal is concerned to Panchayats and Municipalities without giving them the wherewithall to do it. As a consequence the Panchayats especially, who are made up mostly of not so educated politicians, have in turn passed the buck on to private contractors to pick up garbage and dispose itand dispose it they do by the side of the road and in areas less frequented, with scant concern for health and the outbreak of disease. How can we invite tourists to Goa when Goa is a stinking garbage pile ? Before we get the International Film Festival of India and a new International airport, we need the basics, and that is basic hygiene in Goa, garbage disposal, toilets etc. Help
[Goanet] Re: Goa Govt. - Navy and Dabolim airport
Hello, Goa's recognized authority from the Navy, To begin with let me congratulate you for being a rare breed of very sucessful Goans. I hope you are invited as chielf guest at many Goan events as you can be a real role model for our Goan youth. Thanks for your response and information. As you can well understand, my only interest in these Goa-specific topics is educational. I do not have an opinion or an economic interest on the issue of the Dablolim, etc. But the posts on Navy, Dabolim and other Goa-specific issues intrigue me. Cyber-Goans strongly object to "urban-legends" and rightly so. Yet we do not object to "Goa-legends" which you have well characterized. Is this supposed to be "Goenkarachem pirachit".:=)) In my supurlem Goenkar's mind, there must be busy-time for air flights during "tourist-season"; and during this period, high-utilization during certain days of the week and peak time during certain time of the day. These peaks and valleys in air traffic are known well in advance. So what is so difficult to coordinate? Is Dabolim the first / only airport to face the dilemma of utilization and scheduling? I am sure you know many of the following statistics. But for the benefit of the general readership, here are some statistics of a medium size airport in the USA - Ft. Lauderdale (FLL). It is the younger sister of Miami International Airport. Goa's relationship to Mumbai International can be developed to a similar relationship as Fort Lauderdale's. A Typical DAY at FLL airport: - 663 commercial flights - 201 private plane flights - 57,039 passengers - 7,500 workers - 28,000 airport restaurant meals - 450,000 gallons of jet fuel - 8,000 parked cars - 492 tons of airfreight and mail - 12 calls by private air ambulance - 2,296 runway and taxiway lights illuminated ECONOMIC ENGINE FOR THE COUNTY - 20.8 million passengers per year - 179,608 tons of air cargo per year - More than $2.3 billion annual economic contribution - Largest employer in Broward County with nearly 10,500 employees - Additional 21,000 jobs through ancillary services For more information, the readers, please look up their and other web sites. Hope the above facts are helpful to those who want to see Goa progress. If Goans do not step to the plate for progress the "bhaile" will do it for them! The world does not stay still, just because its "Amchem Bangarachem Goem". Kind Regards, GL Goa's recognized authority from the Navy: Dear Lawrence, Well, here is retired Navy brass writing in response, solely to you and not to goanet! You must have already read about 70 anti Navy posts written by someone who is not even a Goan, - Philip Thomas, on that forum. You must have also read some statements by polliticians recently stating that the Navy should leave Dabolim. Well, let me tell you most emphatically, that all the information about the Navy's hindrance to civil aviation in Goa is misinformation. Let me put things into perspective. ... I am just about fed up of reading most of the rubbish which appears on goanet from time to time, so have decided to hold my peace. Besides I have no intention of aggravating my hypertension. So you are free to use this information, but please do not bring me into the discussion. The wishes of this authoritative source are honored, and I thank him for his response - GL
[Goanet] Goa Govt. - Navy and Dabolim airport
Hi Philip, Sorry to burst your bubble, even though that was not my intention. Please do not take it personally. I hope your attitude is not how "Goanet works" and yea that's a pity. The intention of my post is to encourage Goan posters to write hard facts that are more educational and less opinions. CyberGoa is not an international balcao.:=)) So you don't like my suggestion of Point / Counterpoint format written by RECOGNIZED EXPERTS? You don't think Goan experts can write? :=)) and Only our "wise" journalists can educate cyber-Goans?:=)). The following is a response from "someone in the know." Needless to say, I am very appreciative of him taking the time to educate me with facts and figures about the issue. He has posted this information in 2004 on Goanet as per his e-mail to me. Those interested in his detailed response can do the research. Of course I will spare you the trouble to read other positive letters I have recieved. You and native Goan journalists should be proud that Goans in the Diaspora are interested in and take the trouble to know THE FACTS about Goa. And that's not a pity.:=)) Kind Regards, GL Dear Lawrence, Well, here is retired Navy brass writing in response, solely to you and not to goanet! You must have already read about 70 anti Navy posts written by someone who is not even a Goan, - Philip Thomas, on that forum. You must have also read some statements by polliticians recently stating that the Navy should leave Dabolim. Well, let me tell you most emphatically, that all the information about the Navy's hindrance to civil aviation in Goa is misinformation. Let me put things into perspective. ... I am just about fed up of reading most of the rubbish which appears on goanet from time to time, so have decided to hold my peace. Besides I have no intention of aggravating my hypertension. So you are free to use this information, but please do not bring me into the discussion. The wishes of this authoritative source are honored, and I thank him for his response - GL Philip Thomas: My feedback on this post for what its worth: 1. The author doesnt seem to trust a word of what he reads on goanet. 2. He himself has little or nothing by way of information or insights to share on the topic under discussion. 3. He is under the illusion that other goanetters are waiting with bated breath to hear what he wants and will jump to supply it. My friend, if you haven't understood how goanet works, you may never do so! Pity.
[Goanet] Nature of Goa's government
Hi Philip, I was hoping someone would respond to your interesting comment. But since no has done so, let me take your bait. Goans can stay in their balcao contemplating the "three-ring circus" in government in Goa and India. Yet in the short span of about 40-60 years, Goa and India have made remarkable economic strides (from bullockcart to space missions) in spite of the "three-ring circus." Can you imagine what these places and people would have done if "all were on the same page?" Let me make a humble suggestion to Goan writers. Instead of the news-reporters giving their opinion and solutions on every aspect of life, why don't they interview and quote "people in the know?" Hence let's hear from retired Goan navy brass about the navy base in Goa. Let's hear from retired airline pilots and officials about the maximum utilization of Dabolim, or the need for MOPA, and the tourists /film industry about IFFI, etc. Don't you think that would be a better way to educate cyber-Goans? I have yet to read pros and con on any Goa related issue from two recognized authorities. Thus the rest of us may get the same EXPERT opinions and advice as the politicians. Perhaps you and other journalists have done so. Goans living in the north and south "pole" (i.e. far away from the Goan tropics like me) would be better off listening to and reading from some technically qualified natives. Just a suggestion. Kind Regards, GL Philip Thomas: I would be interested to know especially from our overseas Goan friends in supposedly progressive climes what the role should be of a "democratic government in a republican context" in this tragi-comic situation. Cheers.
[Goanet] Portuguese Terror / Inquisition
Thanks Henrique Salles da Fonseca for your kind response. I agree with much of what you have said, including the need to educate oneself on a topic after an interest is raised by a novel. Thus we should not "run with the fiction" but go by some researched facts. Unfortunately as you have written, most of the research is in Portugal far-far away from Goa. So it is for the Portuguese writers and historians to research and write the hard facts. This, rather than some fictional accounts which (novels) then serves as a basis for people far away - be in Goa or in Brazil to write further "PhD thesis" and more novels on the subject. Sometimes, the author presents the fiction totally contrary to the facts, further confounding their readers. I noticed you completely skirted my question about crypto-Jews IN Goa and their victimization IN Goa during the Inquisition. This would suggest you do not have much information on them. Perhaps because they were not a significant factor. So, some individuals tired of writing the "old" stuff are now emphasizing some obscure "fictional" accounts as "new" findings. So PLEASE, as far that you have some influence, impress on your Portuguese colleagues and friends to write the facts on Goa and avoid the docudrama in their writings. Yes, a little intrigue, romance, torture and violence can help sell the book and the inquisition.:=)) Kind Regards, GL = Henrique Salles da Fonseca: I'm not in a position to educate anyone; on the contrary, I would like to receive some education more. I agree with you that novels are not historical documents; however, writers like Richard Zimmler, awake common people for historical matters that perhaps would never arise if novels shouldn't exist. In my opinion, it is very important that novelists inform their readers that in his scripts there is a frontier between reality and fiction and it is the mission of readers to discover where that frontier stays..... it is much more easy to be a novelist. Gilbert Lawrence: > I would appreciate if Henrique Salles da Fonseca could educate us with hard > statistics (victims and offences) about THE INQUISITION IN GOA (not in > Portugal or Spain or Europe) against the crypto-Jews. I see this mentioned > on cyber-Goa. Yet no one has told us how many crypto-Jews were IN GOA and how > where they identified. Or is Crypto-Jews just a big word to confuse "supurlem > Goenkars" like me. :=)) Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Nature of Goa's government
It is not my intent to opine on Goa's Airport issue. This appears to be consuming Goans both in the native land and in the Diasporas. Yet this issue and a few others about Goan attitude to Goa's government intrigues me. Goans need to remember that Goa and India is a DEMOCRACY. But more important GOA AND INDIA is a REPUBLIC. In this form of government, the populace elects representatives. These representatives make decisions on behalf of the populace. So if one does not like the decision (or lack there-off) of the politicians, the real time to make your opinion felt is at the polls. And if one feels strongly about the ability of the politician, contest the election against him or her. After all, IF the politician is so inept and the critic or the news-reporter so smart, then the contest should be an easy win, with the politician defeated. So individual Goans should take a break. Stop arguing the same point over and over again with name calling. If there are some concerns meet with the elected official as a delegation and seek action with a TIME TABLE. We need to get on, with all of us doing our respective jobs for which we are hired, appointed or elected. Politicians are not paid to get insulted in the press, in cyberspace or in person. We do not advance the cause of government by everyone being an expert on everything in our lives. You get my drift.:=)) Goan politicians are smart enough to make policy decisions and the people have to respect their decisions. Or else every Pedro, Gabru and Forcu in each village and in every Diaspora will have fifteen opinions on the airport and every issue connected with Goa. Fifteen cooks will ruin the soup - guaranteed. Goans are questioning why or will the govt. provide transportation to the old and new airport. It would appear these Goans do not have any relatives in the taxi business or have no interest in owning a fleet of taxis, mini vans or buses. Why does the Government have to do everything with YOUR tax rupees??? Kind Regards, GL Nasci Caldeira It is high time that the Civilian Authority make demands on the Navy, from today, untill such time they can and be able to get out of Dabolim altogether. Why not? Dabolim has been civilian from inception; the Navy has to listen to the Civil Power in Goa and in New Delhi; they should stop dictating and trying to influence locals etc with sops!
[Goanet] Portuguese Terror / Inquisition
When will Goans and foreign tourists and Ph D students, writing FICTIONAL novels / and made-up thesis about Goa, write some facts - as they pertain to Goa? Most take the easy way and substitute, transplant and confuse the Inquisition in Goa with the Inquisition in Europe. Henrique Salles da Fonseca below has again confirmed that much of the Catholic Church Inquisition was directed against the Catholics. This was in at attempt to purge the Goan Catholic society (lay and clergy) of non-conformists (by the Inquisition's definition) of thoughts and actions. By my reading some fear was justified for immoral behavior, given the widespread social and military misconduct; and syphilis epidemic sweeping Goa in the late 16- and early 17-century. Statistics quote more than 500 deaths of tertiary syphilis was reported by Goa's hospitals every year. During this pre-penicillin period, syphilis was very much like today's AIDS. What would Goans do TODAY if every year there were 500 deaths in Goa from AIDS, not to mention ten times that number being chronic sufferers and transmitting the disease. This does not even account for the much larger native population today. I would appreciate if Henrique Salles da Fonseca could educate us with hard statistics (victims and offences) about THE INQUISITION IN GOA (not in Portugal or Spain or Europe) against the crypto-Jews. I see this mentioned on cyber-Goa. Yet no one has told us how many crypto-Jews were IN GOA and how where they identified. Or is Crypto-Jews just a big word to confuse "supurlem Goenkars" like me. :=)) Kind Regards, GL Henrique Salles da Fonseca: Gilbert Lawrence is right, the abstract has nothing to see with the title. Furthermore, the most of the inquisitors in Goa were spaniard and italian dominicans but historic penalties felt over portuguese jesuits. Jesuits were not allowed by their Generals, namely by Muzzio Vitteleschi, to cooperate with Inquisition; on the contrary, jesuits have been great victims of the Inquisition. However, there has been one jesuit who decided to intrude the Inquisition as the only way to collapse it: Ant�nio de Andrade has been Notary of a trial with no victims to death. But someone discovered his intention to collapse the Inquisition in Goa and assassinated him the eve of the "Auto de F�". Someone is writing the story of this portuguese born in Oleiros by the end of the XVI century and crossed the Hymalaias in 1620. Best regards, Henrique Salles da Fonseca
[Goanet] Viewpoint on Dabolim airport
Many posts have been written on this subject. None that I read, quoted the total number of flights to land / take off from Dabolim. Most airports with one run way should be able to land a plane every 15 minutes - AT LEAST. So A MINIMUM OF 240 planes a day CAN USE THE AIRPORT between 6 AM and 6 PM. My relatives who have flown into Goa call the airport much, much better than before. So what is the big problem with Dabolim? Please respond with facts rather than opinions And if airport is that busy, it is my understanding that the state and Central Governments want to build a new airport at MOPA. And the same Goans are beefing about that too. Are we just becoming a group of inward looking and chronic complainers? Kind Regards, GL Frederick Noronha In India, there are hardly any night-time domestic flights -- except a very few connecting the big metros. This probably means the navy is willing to accomodate the tourism lobby, ruin the sleep hours of the state, but not stop their ludicrous peak-morning naval flights which disrupts the continuous working of the airport and bottlenecks all the flights to a narrow afternoon slot. The navy and the Airport Authorites of India have been blaming each other for inefficiencies of the airport (mostly the AAI getting blamed). But for the traveller entering Dabolim, life remains trying. Haven't we seen this airport repeately getting crores of rupees for renovation which hardly reflects in the quality of work there? Also, isn't this one of the few airports in the world which doesn't have a public bus service connected to it? FN On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 12:46 +0530, Goa Desc wrote: > The naval authorities have said that though the Dabolim airport was > available for operations, it has not been utilised by the operators of > scheduled and chartered flights after 6 p.m adding that there was ample > scope for accommodating large number of commercial flights in the time slot > from 6 p.m to 6 a.m. "most international airfields abroad have a closed > down period at night but there was no restriction in Goa." Richard Cabral Compare the two statements and you can clearly see how cunning the Navy is trying to be. The Navy is clearly trying to bluff the readers and Goans leading them to believe that the Navy is very generous and considerate towards them.How very samrt!
[Goanet] Reliving the Portuguese terror
Hi Eustaquio, I read the selected abstraction from the novel and found nothing connecting the passages to the title "Reliving the Portuguese terror." Am I missing something? Both you and the author tell us that this is a novel (and not a historical book). So what is the message of your post and its title? Is the point the same as I have made in the past; that fictional novels are by history and literature standards permitted to make "factual errors" if not wholesale "concoction" of facts to present a nice "kaneo." Kind Regards, GL Eustaquio Santimano; The Rediff Special/Richard Zimler Reliving the Portuguese terror in Goa September 19, 2005 http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/19spec2.htm?q=tp&file=.htm In an interview with rediff India Abroad novelist Richard Zimler pointed out that the 'Goa Inquisition was merciless, cruel' Published in Britain by Constable & Robinson and in America and Canada by Dell in July 2005, this is an excerpt from Zimler's novel, Guardian of the Dawn, set during the Inquisition in Goa. At this point in the novel, the narrator -- a young boy named Tiago -- is living with his Portuguese-Jewish father and younger sister, Sofia, just outside Goan territory. Tiago's Indian mother has recently died and it is the beloved family cook, Nupi, who helps him overcome his grief.
[Goanet] A personal appeal - Waste Disposal
Wendell Rodricks and Margaret Mascarenhas and others: Read your pleas with sympathy. Well written article with some good suggestions. Constructive, with the outlining of feasible and available solutions. This may be the lightening rod that awakens native Goans. Another suggestion for native Goans to highlght their plight. EVERY Sunday at 2:00 PM a peaceful morcha to the city hall and secretariat led by Wendell Rodricks and/or Margaret Mascarenhas together with other prominent and not so prominent Goans. In tourists villages and beaches like Calangute the EVERY SUNDAY morcha should be to the beachfront hotels. Show your ire through action!!! Kind Regards, GL Melinda Coutinho Powell: Davorlim,South Goa I live in South Goa,and right in the vicinity of my children's school is the Sonsoddo garbage dump.The clueless Margao Muncipal Council plan to take up the project after the contract with the Goa Foundation , for treating waste, gets over in November.Untreated this dump is really like a time bomb waiting to explode. I shudder to think of the fate of the school students and residents in the surrounding areas. I don't know what it would take to put pressure on our thick skinnned Government but they need to be attacked from all quarters.The problem is very serious.
[Goanet] Diaspora Goans
Hi Tony, Thanks for your response. I studied the issue of Diaspora Goans and their associations. With all due respect, your post is a bit contradictory. The contradictions and my comments are below following the relevant sections. Kind Regards, GL Tony Barros: (TB) Your last posting on the above subject states that Goans where-ever they are should visit each both for mutual benefit, and to expose their kids to Goan culture. This is being done all the time - particularly during the long weekends. Others have also attended events organized by the community, and likewise the hosts have also reciprocated. However, I do not know how a weekend encounter/short holiday could expose kids to Goan culture - all the more so since most of them are so Americanized. A trip to Goa would be a better proposition as they would be "exposed" to all the authentic stuff. GL: If the above does not achieve the desired end result, it is definitely the fault of the parents and the group of friends. A two-week visit to Goa (I do not know how long vacation you get) every two to five years will not achieve the result. Family get-togethers are important. Yet, to educate children or adults there needs to be some structrured transmission of information and not a do-it-yourself version. TB: Forming a regional body in addition to city / state Goan associations is a futile exercise. It is a duplication of efforts, waste of time and money in unnecessary expenses and I am certain many associations would not "buy" the idea. GL: Not if the regional organization format is to have an association to do what local groups cannot do for lack of participation or volume of attendees interested in the project. Clearly a discussion is needed to define the role and responsibilities of the two groups of committee members. Don't be so close minded. TB: The 1988 International Goan Convention (IGC) surfaced the subject of forming a Federation of all Goan Associations - a kind of "umbrella" global organization to co-ordinate the activities. The IGC pointed out that Goan associations should digress from being mere organizers of social events, and instead attempt to grapple with social issues pertaining to Goans and Goa. They also slated GOANS whose officials / executive committee members are not democratically elected. Unfortunately, the Federation issue never got off the "ground". London-based Rene Barretto- the co-ordinator of World Goa Day- re-surfaced the subject last year, and requested several goans associations to discuss it at their levels. Unfortunately, many associations did not respond - in some cases ostensibly so as the subtle details were not elaborated on. I do not know who is going to make the next move and suggest the formation of a national body. GL: The job of getting regional and national organizations "off the ground" is the responsibility of the city / state organizations - to achieve bigger and better success. The concept is grass-root organizations with a down-up structure. TB: There is no yardstick for comparing Goan associations to other social organizations run by immigrants from Europe -many of whose ancestors have lived in the country for close to two centuries and invariably number over a million people. The Groups you mentioned are "Chapters" of National Bodies and in some cases, the officials are either full-time or part- time employees with a few on a volunteer basis. GL: Others have done it successfully. Perhaps we can learn from their success stories. Your comments below suggest we have some difficulties. TB: You seem to be under the false impression that many committee members have a lot of free time to organize an event every month. Most committee members belong to other Goan groups, help Goa and Goans- directly and indirectly, and also volunteer with their church groups and other community organizations. GL: The secret is to get more Goans involved. Rather than big the same old-same old (committee and events). Part of an organization's and a President's success is to get new successors involved and groomed to replace him/her in two years. TB: Getting people to support events is one great problem, but getting volunteers to assist at functions is another hassle. GL: This contradicts your first few points. Perhaps the events and programs are not the type people and volunteers like. Perhaps diaspora Goan are tired of scotch, sorpatel, gossip, fiesta ani siesta. :=)) TB: And why would a Christian Goan want to attend Diwali which is a Hindu religious festival; would Hindu Goans attend an Easter or Christmas event organized by Catholic Goans ? (That is why both Goan groups in New York and New Jersey do not celebrate spring flings anymore given the poor turnouts). GL: Your comparison of Diwali to Easter and Christmas reflects the sheltered social life of your organization. :=)) Don't Hindus celebrate Dec 31/Jan 1? Growing up in Goa and Bombay
[Goanet] Re: Goans in USA
Hi Tony, Thanks for responding to my post on the above subject. Beyond the superficial, we agree a lot. We both emphasize the need to maintain strong family and community ties, which as you have shown really helps in the time of a crises. So, if one lives in Paradise of Toledo, Ohio, or in the Big Easy of New Orleans, one then needs to make the effort and the trip to the big cities to connect on a regular basis with family, friends and community both for mutual benefit and to expose the kids to Goan culture. Yet, the efforts have to be a two way street. To move the concept of Goan interactions further, I would suggest that city/state Goan associations should develop Regional Goan association which can then coordinate through a national body. This structure is used by many social organizations (Sons Of Italy or German American Club) as well as many professional organizations. While every city/ state organization cannot celebrate all the Goan festivities, coordination within their region will permit one or another celebration in the area about once a month. This may be to celebrate Blessed Joseph Vaz feast or a carnival or a Divali. I have previously posted in cyberGoa a list of about 10-12 Goa-specific celebrations, throughout the year. To encourage individuals to make the long ride and participate, when outsiders come, their efforts should be appreciated and they should be especially welcomed at the social events. This, rather than the same old native groups confining themselves to their old cliques. That is where the committee members can help. After all, what goes around comes around. You may have seen my post congratulating the New England Goans for specifically inviting ALL Goans to their recent picnic. And this for the entrance price of: Bring your own fun, excitment, food and drinks. When regional organizations cooperate, these celebrations can be posted well in advance for all to enter the dates on their calendar of social engagements. Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Fun meet for East-Coast-Goans
Goans living on the east coast of Canada and USA can save themselves from going to Munich, Germany for the Oktoberfest. Attend the FREE Oktoberfest just south of Albany, at Hunter Mountain, New York on the weekend of October 1 and October 8. Great German music, dancing, food, arts and crafts and a cable car drive to the top of the mountain to view the Catskills. It's fun for the whole family. For details on the time and the directions, please look up the web-page on Hunter Mountain, NY, Oktoberfest. Did I mention entrance for the event is FREE and so is parking. :=)) As the Goans say in Mumbai, "Be there or be square".:=)) Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Learning from Katrina-Goans
Last week, I saw a couple of posts on assisting Goans in the three states affected by the hurricane disaster. On my return, I gleamed through the posts in cyber-Goa to see NO FURTHER dialogue on this subject - surprising and disappointed! I was hoping to see some issues surface, specifically: How many Goans live in each of the three states? How many need help? What help is needed? Perhaps we do not know the answer to any of those questions. Most importantly, I don't think we know much information about Goans scattered in the American Diaspora. This is a wake-up call that Goans in the USA have to be more organized that just having a local/city/state G.O.A. or G.I. Goans (at least the committee members) have to interact a lot more than being just isolated groups just within their state. Or even worse being Goa-Goans, East African-Goans, Karachi-Goans, Bombay-Goans, Ex-railway Goans, Middle-East-Goans (that have moved west), Mangloreans, Hindu and Catholic Goans, etc.. Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] What non-Americans think?
Hi Victor, I could not read the attachment that may have attached to your posting. However if you will bear with me, I would like to respond to what the headline of your post suggest. Hurricane Katrina was a natural disaster exacerbated by human miscalculations. It realy does not matter what others think of Americans. It matters what we Americans think of ourselves and what we do about it. What this means?: What did we learn from it? How can we improve from that lesson? and How will we prevent those lapses from ever occurring again? I think those important issues is what makes America great. I hope the non-Americans can learn from us as we learnt from handling this tragedy. In my next post I will outline what Diaspora Goans can learn from this tragedy. But for now, the first learnign lessons: Americans realized our lapses within a WEEK - Thanks to a vigilant and live press! The government (center and other states) responded with help as soon as it learnt of its lapses. Ordinary Americans respond not with words with will money/poixe/dinehiro.:)) and VOLUNTARY efforts. The press played a very importantly role - not just critical but constructive and participatory in the rescue efforts. Kind Regards, GL
[Goanet] Sunday Goan Humor
Hi Carmo, Glad to hear that you and your family weathered the recent storm of Katrina which hit Florida. And your intellectual lifeline - computer and e-mail connection to the outside world is intact. Your "B--a B--t" reference had me and my wife ROTFLMAO. I am sure you know, this is not a Konkani word but stands for "Rolling on the floor laughing my anatomy off." I think even the lusophiles are laughing and being nostalgic. Or they are abusing you because, with your Indian hockey stick you have reminded them of their bliss. Vodlo-khadyacho (old man with a beard) is encouraging us to keep-up our heritage and Konkani language alive. So we should cherish phrases like "B--a B--t." These phrases are as Goan as Caju feni. Only Khoro Niz Goenkars will understand, appreciate and enjoy them. However to maintain our etiquette, perhaps we should civilize "B--a B--t" with "B & B" which only "Sud Goemcars" will enjoy - not even our Diaspora kids, room-mates or live-in-partners (unless they are Goemcars). To them "B & B" will be Bed and Breakfast - what a climb-down!:=)) Kind Regards, GL PS. Khoro Niz Goenkars please do not get ideas about, "room-mates or live-in-partners." That's the phrase old folks use to refer to their spouses just to add a spark to their life. :=)) If you are married and you try the quotes, you will get a B & B - don't mess with the ghorcarni! Men who fight with their wives all day will get no piece at night.:=)) Carmo: "Aao Portugues" type Goans with a "B--a B--t" attitude
[Goanet] Re: We need more Goans to graduate from IITs for the greater good of Goa.....
Hi Oscar, I do not recollect reading that post or the URL. But it would be worth posting it again. I empathize with you with the feeling of lack of support from the Goan community. But as a quick response, if there are any Goans who seek some advice, they can follow the dialogue on cyberGoa and find out who is doing what in which field and communicate with them directly. My suggestion to use Goan social events, takes that mentoring one step further and provides some more personal interactions, especially with Goans who are not on cyberGoa. Kind Regards, GL JosenoronC at aol.com wrote: Dr. Lawrence: Please do not take this personally. But about a year ago or so, I had submitted to this forum a blueprint for a mentoring initiative for the benefit of young Goans. It would meet the needs for facilitating academic, professional and entrepreneurial information. I also provided the URL of a similar organization that was a going and successful concern, albeit not involving Goans. I did not receive one single comment, whether supporting, providing constructive criticism or showing the impracticality of the ideas presented. Regards! Oscar GL wrote: Hi Carmo and Jose, I fully agree with the following sentiments. But the Goan youth need some mentors and role-models. Thus, they will get the message that in spite of being a minority, Goans can excel. No more 'EXCUSES' that we cannot achieve becasue of favoritism. Our motto should be, "Goans can excel in spite of favoritism and our minority status" just as we have DONE in the past. If a mentor / role model is placed in front of a Goan audience, that very likely will be his/her message with many other useful pointers. Kind Regards, GL CARMO DCRUZ wrote: My Dear Cousin Jose, Thanks for your very thoughtful message - it was really inspiring - we really need highly educated Goan professionals from all disciplines in addition to engineers from IITs and other engineering colleges - eg. medicine, law, IT, journalism,,culinary arts (esp. to keep up our Cooks n Butlers tradition and heritage - which I am very proud of too, btw) ...etc...as you so eloquently mentioned in your email.. for the Greater Good of Our Beloved Goa.
[Goanet] GOA - acronym
The most famous GOA stands for is Gulf of Alaska. That's lesson 101 for every sailor and Pacific fisherman. :=)) Gulf of Alaska is also important for those cruising the northwest GOA is also important for those in the oil tanker business Kind Regards, GL Jorge/Livia de Abreu Noronha From: Tony Barros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Monday, August 22, 2005 2:44 AM > When Genoa applied to IATA- the Montreal-based International Air > Travel Association - for their three-letter code, Goa was still a > Portuguese colony with Dabolim basically operating as a military > airport. Likewise, Genoa also beat us to the "draw"- leaving is with > the GOI code after we decided to use Dabolim also as a civilian > airport. > > Dabolim was never used by the Portuguese as a military airport - in fact, the Portuguese Air Force was not present in Goa. During some years after Goa's integration in the Republic of India, when Dabolim was taken over by the Indian Navy, it was named INS Hansa (and it still is); and, when it was open to civilian traffic, the civilian part became known as Dabolim Airport, with the three-letter code of DBL. It was only years later that it came to be renamed Goa Airport, with the code GOI. Genoa Airport in Italy always had its code as GOA. Jorge
[Goanet] RE: We need more Goans to graduate from IITs for the greater good of Goa.....
Hi Carmo, Kitem munta rre? Saiba bogos! Poster Boy for ABC? >From your resume, it appears "I snapped a Marlin" as they say in Indian Harbour Beach, FL. When can I come to take a picture of myself with the Khoro Nitz Goenkar himself? Not to commit the same mistake, I will leave your post untouched. And I will psyche myself to bear the abuses from some Goenkars who will surely complain that "I am wasting bandwidth." I am glad I could convince you and others about placing role-models in front of our youth. As far as names, there are plenty around- unless you are implying there are no truly smart Goans. We need more posts from you! Kind Regards, GL CARMO DCRUZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: = Hi Gilbert, Thanks for your message - but I was really disappointed about where you truncated my email and made me appear like the poster-boy of the proud Cooks n Butlers tradition of our beloved Goa ! Despite my IIT background, which may disqualify me from being emulated by a majority of our Christao Goan youth these days because of the former CM who has been castigated, and because I do not really have the anti-Nehru "Aao Portuguese" pride in me, you may note that I played a lot of national level hockey in India, tried out for Team USA, thus keeping up our traditional Goan position as a "hockey goalie". Like my fellow Velkar international hockey players John Correia (who went on to complete his MA and rise to become an executive at Central Bank) and Dr. Vece Paes the medical doctor who won the Bronze medal at the Munich olympics and the silver in the 1971 World Cup, I too was coached by the great 3-time Olympic gold medallist, the great Balbir Singh Sr. of Punjab Police - he instilled in us the drive for excellence in hockey and academics - and we lived up to it. There are many other Goan hockey players who have been inspired and trained by Balbir and others - but most of our "Bonka Bhot" Goans would have the irreverant "Tho Kon Re Sikro" attitude towards Balbir Sr. these days. These attitudes and excuses about favoritism, unfounded fears of the saffronization of Goa, divisive Devnagiri vs Roman script debates, etc will only divert and hamper the excellence of Goan youth despite our minority status...Its about time that Goan youth realize that they are Indians and not Portuguese-Indians, and be proud of it !!! I am inviting Balbir to Goa in December to inspire our Goan Youth ! Hows taht for role models ? Best Regards, Dr. Carmo D'Cruz, Indian Harbour Beach, FL
[Goanet] Further insights into WGD
Hi Eugene, I skimmed through your article on the above subject and came across a reference to an issue I recently raised. Here are some clarifications. I am not requesting the Goan organizations to push / promote my or other Goan books. All I am requesting (and have done so in the past) is to give the Goan artists in the Diaspora an OPPORTUNITY TO DISPLAY their creative work to the Goan community at the social events, and if the individuals in the community so feel like it, they can purchase the same. In the process, those displays will spark some creativity in a budding Goan and also allow some one-on-one interactions with some mentoring. At some Goan social events, I have offered to donate the books (for free) if all the proceeds could then go to the Goan village church for repairs. Sometimes the response I have received (from more than one organization) is, "there is no time for this." There have been a few Goan organizations wanting the book (for free) if they can keep the proceeds of the sale for themselves. Occasionally, I have gone along with that too. So how much more can one do? Rene Barreto and WGD through their web writings encourage Goans to write and be creative artists. But somehow we cannot complete the loop. Perhaps one needs some influence. :=)) In case you may wonder, Amchi Khobor - Our News - Inside Goa is priced for less than the price of a movie ticket. (U.S. $5:00 only). Those interested please approach your own Goan associations to request for the books. But all the news is not so gloomy! Amchi Khobor will be used as a textbook for a series of classes I will conduct this fall at SUNY (State University of New York) for their students and MVLIR (Mohawk Valley learning in retirement). The classes will be on Indian culture, history, religions and economic development. I am told by the university and many MVLIR members that they are looking forward to the course. And so am I. Kind Regards, GL Eugene Correia >From Gilbert Lawrence's "complaints", I picked the one that I feel needs >urgent attention. It's about his book which, he says is "still way >under-utilized." I gather he means that the WGD organizers and other Goan >diaspora organizations need to push the book among its members or to the Goan public at large. It's going to be a "hard sell" for associations to sell a book, though publicity could be provided in their respective newsletters. I tried hard to sell late Prof. Frank D'Souza book of his collected essays published by his family. I then got the current chairman of the GOA, Roque Baretto, to buy more than a dozen or so at a concession rate and keep the "profits" for the Salcette Association (I think). Few Goans buy books on Goan subjects, as I have seen at Viva Goa and other events. On the subject of books, though the idea seems financially unfeasible if one takes into account Gilbert's case, I want the Goan diaspora, rather directly the Goan associations, to consider putting a book together of selected articles from The Goan World and Anglo-Lusitano, both print publications that went out of publishing decades ago.
[Goanet] RE: We need more Goans to graduate from IITs for the greater good of Goa.....
Hi Carmo and Jose, I fully agree with the following sentiments. But the Goan youth need some mentors and role-models. Thus, they will get the message that in spite of being a minority, Goans can excel. No more 'EXCUSES' that we cannot achieve becasue of favoritism. Our motto should be, "Goans can excel in spite of favoritism and our minority status" just as we have DONE in the past. If a mentor / role model is placed in front of a Goan audience, that very likely will be his/her message with many other useful pointers. Kind Regards, GL Kind Regards, GL CARMO DCRUZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: = My Dear Cousin Jose, Thanks for your very thoughtful message - it was really inspiring - we really need highly educated Goan professionals from all disciplines in addition to engineers from IITs and other engineering colleges - eg. medicine, law, IT, journalism,,culinary arts (esp. to keep up our Cooks n Butlers tradition and heritage - which I am very proud of too, btw) ...etc...as you so eloquently mentioned in your email.. for the Greater Good of Our Beloved Goa.
[Goanet] Re: Fitting in: Colonial official to Anthropology
Paulo Colaco Dias, Hi Paulo, Thanks for providing all the factual information and explanations to support my observations. It was so good, I saved it as "the English version" of the abstract of the Portuguese books. I fully agree with you that we have to move forward. And there is no use going over the lots of woulda, coulda, shoulda.:=)) Kind Regards, GL ---- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: = My reading of Newman's writings is: There are too much of "opinions" and stories (kaneos) and too little analytic and statistical facts on Goa, its people and its life. Perhaps this is what anthropology is! My reading of Figueiredo's writings is that he gives too much credit to the Portuguese pre and post-1947 and for "the Goeses were Cidades Portugueses, like it or not." Perhaps native Goans did have Portuguese citizenships and a few had a passport. Yet only the native Goans who belonged to the feudal families enjoyed all the privileges that come with citizenship - "The Landed Gentry." Why were there paved roads, water, sewage and electricity ONLY in Panjim? (Supposedly the best in the world!) Yet as last reported, long after 1947, Goa's representative to Portugal's parliament, Senhor DeMello made a specific request to the govt. to grant Goans the same privileges as the native Portuguese; only to be told "we will study that request." This is what was presented and dialogued on this cyber-forum only a few months ago. So my question to Gabriel, if "the Goeses were Cidades Portugueses, like it or not" what was Dr. DeMello asking for, as the records of Lisbon's parliament show? I still find it difficult to understand that if Goa under the Portuguese was good, how come 80% of young Goan men had to leave Goa for post-graduate education and jobs until 1960? What was the thinking of native Goan leaders of the period? Or they just did not care for the masses; after all their own kin were doing just fine. Hong Kong pre-1997 (Special Administrative Territory status) was definitely different and better that mainland China. But it was no Britain for the land or its people; nor a free representative government. Very (comparative) few had and traveled on a "British" passport. Kind Regards, GL == Gabriel de Figueiredo's response to Robert Newman FITTING IN: COLONIAL OFFICIAL TO ANTHROPOLOGIST > Taking a closer look at writing that goes back a century > By Robert S. Newman > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... that its culture was utterly unlike that of neighboring India, as if Goa had sprung from the sea like some Venus on a seashell! There is one thing I dislike about Robert Newman and his writings, brief though my acquaintance was with them after having a quick read through half of his book (Umbrellas etc). And that is the dismissal of opinions of some Goans in the manner mentioned above. I have equally read from some publications by authors / visitors other than Goan who say that once they crossed the border into Goa it was like moving into a different environment altogether. >... Major Leal launches into a discussion of other improvements that are >needed in his jurisdiction. The word "Estado" > refers to O Estado da India Portuguesa, the official name for Goa and the > small enclaves to the north. Just a note saying that the above proves that Goa was called the Estado da India Portuguesa (something like what Hawaii is to the US today) long before 1947 - some people claim that Portugal had suddenly turned Goa into its overseas state in 1947 to prevent it from being claimed by Nehru... Thus being Estado da India Portuguesa, the Goeses were Cidad�es Portugueses, like it or not.
[Goanet]Re: Goa: Marching ahead
If the information in the article below is true and I have no doubt it is, then: Congratulations and Thank you Kavish Kamat and Anil Sastry for your article. Congratualtions to native Goans for that progress. How come that article appeared in Hindu and not in a Goan paper? How come the story below is never recounted by Goan journalists? They are always negative on Goa, at least their posts on cyber Goa. I am sure someone is going to write the article is all humbug; but with no data of their own. Or they will find a dark cloud to fill this silver lining of Goa? Will our Nay-sayer Goan journos take it easy on their factual colleagues?:=)) Now I can understand why "the same old politicians" keep getting elected.:=)) Kind Regards, GL = Marching ahead (The Hindu) Kavish Kamat Anil Sastry LARGELY an agrarian economy, which relied considerably on imports, trade and iron ore mining in the pre-liberation days, Goa, today, is an industrially-developing State. Known for its high-literacy rate, widespread knowledge of English and pleasant environment, the State has developed into a pharma hub. A study on this industry, conducted by Pyramid Finance Ltd, says: "Goa has exhibited a brilliant aptitude towards attracting pharmaceutical investments. With less than 20 companies in this sector in 1991, there are today over 50 companies in this sector generating a total revenue of over Rs 1,900 crore, constituting roughly 7.2 per cent of the total drug production in the country."
[Goanet]Goans without Boundries - easier said than done!!!
I read Wendell Rodricks' article (and other posts) on this topic with interest and CONCUR ON SOME points with all of them. There are many areas where things are easier said than done. While much of what is written in targeted to the Diaspora Goan (and that is good), Goan Diasporas cannot come to and into Goa, and make sure the needs and projects are implemented FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF MANY. In my limited experience, Goans in key positions are often the bottle-necks in spite of their pious pronouncements. I can of course talk of generalities and be accused of being an arm-chair Goan. So let me give specific examples without wanting to beat my drum. I am NOT pointing a finger at any individual. Yet there is definitely a pattern that is discouraging. And I hope this is a call to do better. 1. A few thousand-dollar donation made to Goa Sudharop for use for a hospital in Porvorim is still sitting in a bank in San Francisco for three years. 2. A book written on Goan culture and other factual information about Goa for the Goan Diasporas is still way under-utilized becasue the WGD organizers and other Goan Diaspora organizations "could care less." 3. Fund raising for repairs of Goan churches cannot be undertaken at Catholic Goan social events in the Diaspora because the organizers claim, "there is no time for this." 4. Suggestion to set up diabetes support groups in various villages in Goa with blood sugar monitors donated by Diaspora Goans has yet to see the light of day. 5. A Goan maritime museum now started on the web, gets interest from only a handful of Goans; and no interest from the youth, for whose benefit museums are created. 6. Instead of targeting Goan school drop-outs, who will be the next generation of underprivileged (class of) Goans, we endlessly talk of and re-create caste divisions of old. 7. A web-forum of Goan writers is possibly being closed down due to "only rare posts from Goan writers." Please let me stop here before I step on a few more toes. Wendell's suggestions are good on paper. That's the story of Goans! Please do not respond to me or about me; but to the issues raised in this post. As stated above, we can certainly do better. Kind Regards, GL 88 Wendell Rodricks expresses his SOLIDARITY with Goans world wide in his message * GOANS WITHOUT BOUNDARIES * Goa needs the Goan Diaspora more today than ever before. While we continue to live our cultural heritage, it is sad to see the deterioration of the land and Goan values. Corruption, neglect and apathy has taken its toll on Goa. It is in this area than you my fellow Goans in the Diaspora can help. Expose our wrongdoers. Praise the ones who work for a cause. At the moment we have a garbage problem. Talk out it in the national and foreign press. It is a matter that needs to be rectified. Goa's main earner is tourism. It is at stake if the garbage issue is not addressed. Donate information, not money ~ Very often Goans in Goa need information and technology more than a donation in cash. Teach your villagers an alternate method. Talk about new technologies. Gift a computer-aided gizmo to your local Panchayat. Contribute constructively ~ Restore a section of the temple or church personally (or have a trusted person do it). Build a library for the villages. Pay for cataract operations for the old. Do your bit in small ways by doing and not donating. It is important to do what the people need. So ask around first. People who live in Goa have different needs. Sometimes all they will ask for is if someone can help them carry their bazaar from the city to the village. Begin a corpus fund for Goa ~ If every Goan worldwide donated a dollar, it would be a staggering 1 million a month. That is 12 million a year. Sufficient money for the Diaspora Goans to build a hospital or bridge, make roads and solve a garbage disposable problem for the entire state. Sufficient money to make your case heard among those in power in the state. Repair and restore the old homes ~ They are heritage monuments. Please restore them and rent them in season to your own friends. Ignore family disputes. Just do it. I saved my grandmothers house from ruin and the emotional satisfaction was enormous. Take an active part in Goan culture. I know many Goans who make silent contributions to Goan art, literature, music and dance. These are our cultural pillars. They need to be strengthened. We can only go forward if we realize the rich culture we have inherited. Do not condemn Goa ~ Work for it. Too many Diaspora Goans come to Goa and only criticize the way things are and how the locals do nothing for Goa. Please remember that local Goans live in a climate of resignation. So instead of criticising, do something constructive. Protect the Goan environment ~ Even from across the border, you can save Goa's air, land
[Goanet]Fitting in: Colonial official to Anthropology
My reading of Newman's writings is: There are too much of "opinions" and stories (kaneos) and too little analytic and statistical facts on Goa, its people and its life. Perhaps this is what anthropology is! My reading of Figueiredo's writings is that he gives too much credit to the Portuguese pre and post-1947 and for "the Goeses were Cidades Portugueses, like it or not." Perhaps native Goans did have Portuguese citizenships and a few had a passport. Yet only the native Goans who belonged to the feudal families enjoyed all the privileges that come with citizenship - "The Landed Gentry." Why were there paved roads, water, sewage and electricity ONLY in Panjim? (Supposedly the best in the world!) Yet as last reported, long after 1947, Goa's representative to Portugal's parliament, Senhor DeMello made a specific request to the govt. to grant Goans the same privileges as the native Portuguese; only to be told "we will study that request." This is what was presented and dialogued on this cyber-forum only a few months ago. So my question to Gabriel, if "the Goeses were Cidades Portugueses, like it or not" what was Dr. DeMello asking for, as the records of Lisbon's parliament show? I still find it difficult to understand that if Goa under the Portuguese was good, how come 80% of young Goan men had to leave Goa for post-graduate education and jobs until 1960? What was the thinking of native Goan leaders of the period? Or they just did not care for the masses; after all their own kin were doing just fine. Hong Kong pre-1997 (Special Administrative Territory status) was definitely different and better that mainland China. But it was no Britain for the land or its people; nor a free representative government. Very (comparative) few had and traveled on a "British" passport. Kind Regards, GL == Gabriel de Figueiredo's response to Robert Newman FITTING IN: COLONIAL OFFICIAL TO ANTHROPOLOGIST > Taking a closer look at writing that goes back a century > By Robert S. Newman > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... that its culture was utterly unlike that of neighboring India, as if Goa had sprung from the sea like some Venus on a seashell! There is one thing I dislike about Robert Newman and his writings, brief though my acquaintance was with them after having a quick read through half of his book (Umbrellas etc). And that is the dismissal of opinions of some Goans in the manner mentioned above. I have equally read from some publications by authors / visitors other than Goan who say that once they crossed the border into Goa it was like moving into a different environment altogether. >... Major Leal launches into a discussion of other improvements that are >needed in his jurisdiction. The word "Estado" > refers to O Estado da India Portuguesa, the official name for Goa and the > small enclaves to the north. Just a note saying that the above proves that Goa was called the Estado da India Portuguesa (something like what Hawaii is to the US today) long before 1947 - some people claim that Portugal had suddenly turned Goa into its overseas state in 1947 to prevent it from being claimed by Nehru... Thus being Estado da India Portuguesa, the Goeses were Cidad�es Portugueses, like it or not.
[Goanet]East Indian - Correct terminology
The Goan discussion on "East Indians" has be interesting. Now that we are through with all the old derogatory terminologies used to describe "Indians" the issue is what is going on now and where do we go from here? Others will/should call us by the name we seek to be addressed by and how we address ourselves. In the USA, in the past we went by Asian Indians in America. We were a unique group as other ethnic groups were called Irish Americans and German Americans etc. We called ourselves the above because the title of American-Indians was taken and we did not want to be confused with any other groups. NOW the American-Indian terminology is NOT politically correct. It was a left-over of Christopher Columbus thinking that America was India. The American-Indians are correctly called TODAY as Native Americans. So too the young generation of Asian-Indians are more comfortable calling themselves as "Indian Americans" in keeping with other groups, and as they have less of an emotional link with Asia compared to their parents. So I hope we stop calling ourselves and dissuade others from calling us "East Indians" or "West Indians" etc. etc. As an FYI, in our upcoming novel we term Indian Americans in an "innovative manner" as Ind-o-US (Indians of U.S.). Of course somebody will write and tell us we plagiarized it.:=)) We are not trying to change the terminology but just be "innovative". Kind Regards, GL Mario Goveia --- Tony Barros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Eugene et al! > > The label - East Indian is used in the U.S. and > probably in Canada by Asian Indians from the > Carribbean Islands-ostensibly as they were > brought to work as "bonded" laborers by the British > company - the East Indian Trading Company.I do not > know what they call themselves in the Carribbean > Mario adds: Tony, good analysis of typical name-calling in various places, and I was glad you put that one guy in his place. It is not hard to remind Caucasian Americans that even their ancestors from the Mayflower were "illegals". I tell them they are Americans by virtue of a "biological crapshoot" whereas we are Americans by choice. However, I have lived in the US for 34 years. The term "East Indian" is used in my experience to distinguish Indians from India from the various other "Indians" around here. I have several Jamaican and Trinidadian and Guyanain friends and they call the descendants of the "indentured laborers" from India simply Indians. These were brought as supposedly contract laborers after the British abolished slavery, and most never went back. Their descendants are over 50% in Guyana, and about 35% in Trinidad, with a smaller % in Jamaica. The people of African descent from the Carribean call themselves by their Island's name, i.e. Jamaican, Trinidadian, etc. while we refer to all of them collectively as "West Indians", i.e. from the West Indies. These terms are not racial slurs or used in a derogarory manner. They are simply descriptive. That cannot be said of the terms "Pakis", "Wogs", etc. which are used as racial slurs. In the midwest, where I live, and in most of the US, Indians are looked up to, being mostly professionals and businessmen and women, whereas in the areas of intense Indian concentration in NY or NJ, I believe there is some tension.
[Goanet]Bloody foreigners - Semantics
Ms. O'Leary takes exception to Mr. Correia's negative description of the book "Bloody Foreigners" based on the title without reading the book. My reaction to the title of the book was similar to Mr. Correia. And I was surprised that Cornell DaCosta brushed aside the language of the title by lamely calling it "unfortunate." However on reflection, I realize that the Brits use "Bloody" and "Bugger" as every third word in their speech. To them the title perhaps does not sound as harsh as it does to an American or a native Goan. Similarly native Goans use the word "B*st*rd" frequently. And the Americans use "Son of a Gun" or "Sucks" as a matter-of-fact. This is cultural semantics. Yet, there is a difference using a word in speech and putting it in print especially in a publication by a mainstream publisher. And in today's international world it is not what a user means by it, but how the recipient / reader (person at the other end) feels about it. That is what harassment - sexual, racial or caste attitudes or discrimination is all about. If the author and the publisher did not mean what the title says, then they are using the words for its "shock value" and "AT THE COST of the FOREIGNER" to sell more copies of the book. In fact there is no foreigner except the illegal. Most are very much British (by birth and/or legal rights) as Shepard's Pie and perhaps the author. So I find it surprising that the immigrants in the UK did not raise a cry when the book appeared in print - more so, to stop future insensitive titles and texts from appearing. We condemn practices of a generation ago with harsh words (see discussion on caste). But today's practices are called "unfortunate"; and I think that is amazingly unfortunate. :=)) Kind Regards, GL Rebecca O'leary writes: What I find incredible about Mr. Correia's posting is that he has just seen the title of the book "Bloody Foreigners" and not read it but pre-judges it's content. Amazing. Best Wishes Rebecca (London)
[Goanet]Dinesh D'Souza
I have been following some of the posts on Dinesh D'Souza. As has been said, whether one agrees with his philosophy or not, one needs to give him credit for his success within the "Think Tank" at a high level of America's social policy makers. As a Goan community, we should be glad to have members in various camps so that when needed we have a variety of resources to count on. However for the Goan community to call on Dinesh D'Souza (when needed), what has the Goan community done to help him. Through out al this debate, there were no post from Goans in the Washington DC, Maryland, Virginia area. What has the WGD from this U.S. region and this country (U.S.) done to recognize him? Have they ever invited him as a chief guest / speaker? Or does the whole of USA invite Dinesh D'Souza (even as a paid speaker), except the Goans? One could also ask what has Dinesh D'Souza done for the Goans in the USA? Kind Regards, GL Eugene Correia wrote: Dinesh has his own website http://www.dineshdsouza.com, but he hasn't given details of his herediatry. Made a more specific search on his goan roots on google. Unfortunately, the site does not list him as one of the proud sons of Saligao. Maybe rightly so, for Dinesh is a Assagoakar, and a grandson of Saligao, according to some of the posts here. But the tinto -- says it's proud of him, though not saying he is grandson of the village.
[Goanet]Goa permanent venue for IFFI - Rane Govt
I hope cyber-Goans residing aboard (for long) do not have the audacity to write about / define the opinions of Goans residing in Goa. It is the native Goans in cyberspace that (should) write about the natives; and they should be sure they are reporting on the opinions of the majority of the natives and not conveying their personal biases or the preferences of their paymasters. Perhaps because of this, the opinion polls carried on cyber-Goa may not reflect the true sentiment of native Goans. Your suggestion of a discussion on the "big disconnect between cyber Goans and native Goans" is worth persuing it. Kind Regards, GL Philip Thomas By any chance did you mean to say "cyber" Goans instead of "native" Goans at the end of this particular line? Why indeed is there such a big disconnect between cyber Goans and native Goans? Might be worth discussing on goanet. Gilbert Lawrence, Aug 6
[Goanet]Goa permanent venue for IFFI - Rane Govt
Looks like the present Congress Govt is pretty much in lock-step with the prior Goa govt of the BJP about IFFI and the MOPA airport! Yes, a few supposed "pre-conditions" by Mr. Rane. This would suggest, that about 80-90% of Goa's elected representatives are in favor of these projects. Where does that leave the opinions of most of the cyber-Goans? The tourists-businesses and the "silent working majority of native Goans" appear to have won the argument. My philosophical question: Why is there such a big disconnect between the Goans in cyber Goa and the native Goans about whom and whose "interest" native Goans write about. I am sure some will respond saying, "the elected representatives do not represent the interest of the native Goans," as some journalists (in the press and in cyber-Goa) have written. Well in that case the journalist should contest the election against these politicians and let the electorate / resident Goans decide whose policies and economics they would prefer. That's the way it is done in democracy and not through personal denigrating newspaper articles/editorials asking the politician "to step down." Defeat him/her in the polls!!! Perhaps now that Goa's two major political parties have spoken, the majority of cyber-Goans can work to make these even greater success stories instead we being our usual "naysayers". Kind Regards, GL Rane govt sets pre-condition on holding IFFI The Chief Minister, Mr Pratapsing Rane has set a pre-condition for the central government to declare Goa as permanent venue of the International Film Festival of India for giving state's consent to hold the 36th IFFI. The I&B ministry has already announced its IFFI schedule. "If the Union cabinet declares Goa as permanent IFFI venue, we will welcome holding the IFFI in Goa," Mr Rane remarked. The government would sign memorandum of understanding for holding 36th IFFI only if the central government declares Goa as permanent venue of the IFFI in the country. Mr Rane said this would help Goa in long way instead of co-hosting the IFFI for one or two years. Mr Rane said the I&B ministry has agreed to equally share expenditure on the 36th IFFI, but the government was of the opinion that it would be wasteful expenditure on the festival by co-hosting it for one or two years. Infrastructure created for the IFFI like multiplex, roads should be of permanent nature and not for one or two years, and in view of this the government has set the pre-condition to give its consent, Mr Rane stated. However, Mr Rane said he was extremely happy over the Planning Commission allocating additional funds for Goa and that these funds were sufficient to clear pending IFFI bills. A bill of three hotels running into around Rs 1 crore is pending, he informed and added that the government has to settle contractors' bills, which run into crores of rupees, Mr Rane informed. Asked whether the government proposed to set up an inquiry commission to look into the expenditure on IFFI-related projects, Mr Rane said the government would soon decide the course of action to be initiated into the IFFI-expenditure. He stated engineering audit over the Kala Academy is in progress, and that all other 11 contractors involved in IFFI-related projects would be disengaged. The Chief Minister revealed that the Entertainment Society, Goa, the body created to co-host the IFFI, would continue to exist. He said the government would soon re-constitute the ESG. On the Mopa airport, Mr Rane informed that the 800 sq. km land is being acquired at the Mopa plateau in Pernem taluka and technical feasibility report has been prepared by the Airport de Paris. He said the government would invite bids from reputed firms for the proposed international airport by December. Mr Rane said the airport would be built with public-private participation and would be given on BOOT basis. Though he said the estimates are yet to be prepared, the estimated cost on the construction would be around Rs 1000 crore.
[Goanet]Re: Homosexuality normal / abnormal
Hi JC, I am not sure you answered any of my questions. None of them were trick questions. They were posed because I do not know the answer to them. Can you or any one answer the question? especailly Do you think same-sex pedophiles is a sexual-behavioral extension of adult homosexuality or is it a different 'kettle of fish'? If you do not know, please say so and let's not answer a question with a question. Thanks, GL
[Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
Hi Cornel and Mario, You guys and others can continue to stick to the academic model which you have built about Goans and continue to expand on the discrimination in our society. But I would agree with Cornel that, Goans (including me) can certainly improve on our intermingling skills beyond our small circle of same-old-friends. In fact we need it badly - between caste and within the caste strata. Outside my own immediate family, I can count on one hand the number of Goan boys and girls in the USA who are BORN IN THE DIASPORAS and who are married to other Goans. Mario can perhaps share with us his experience. This massive 'out-marriage' is something we have never seen in prior Goan diasporas. This is what Goan academics, sociologists, futurists and writers should talk and write about, rather than the outdated past. I would like to hear what is going on in other diasporas to their first generation. Are our kids looking at the parents and saying, "No way am I going to marry another Goan" irrespective of caste? Or are the parents reluctant to introduce their kids to other Goans for what ever preconceived notions? I hope I have not touched a raw nerve. To those wondering, yes my kid, nephews and nieces are married ... to Goans. Now my solution to fight discrimination in Goan society is to use what has worked well (not perfectly) in US society. In my New York state and Mario's Ohio, there are Poles, Irish, Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Dutch, Slavs, Lebanese etc etc. These groups at one time (30-50 years ago) looked down on each other and historically were hostile to each other. In the USA, each of these groups had their own Catholic seminaries to meet the social needs- that is a whole different discussion. They had derogatory words like WASP, WAP, Pollack etc etc. and Catholics had a 'bad' name (papist). Remember Kennedy running for President? The greatest animosity was among those in the lower educational and social-economic strata of the different groups. My experience in London in the 1970s was the same, and this may be universal. Today the animosity is not there. These ethnic groups have not eliminated their identity. They maintained their cultural heritage. They have shared it with and educated others. In the process have enriched themselves and others with that approach. This is reflected in their cuisine, writings, social contacts (Italian feast, October feast, St. Paddy's Day etc etc). At these events, all comers belong to the host community. Now they even inter-marry. I would like to see the same be done across Goan society as we move forward. To begin with, I wish someone could even tell us what proportion of Goan society belong to the various Varnas. As a sociologist would you not want to see these basic statistics, Cornel? Each of these Varnas have their history and their festivals. Those who laugh about this are actually displaying their ignorance and conceit. Lift the poor, uneducated, the 'lower caste' (what ever that means) up - not by accusing others (including the Goa Bishop) of sins they have not committed unless you can clearly show it. There is no guilt by association or extension which is what you are doing. Sing the praises and the worthy contributions of the poor like Mother Teresa did. All of us in society have contributed. Including in America and UK the coal miners, steel workers, textile workers. In fact I don't even know which are the lower caste occupations in Goa. Do you? Is it the toddy-taper, the feni- brewer, the fisher-folks. That should not be too difficult to have and attend their festival or build a school for them. It will help their business. :=)) And that will be more productive that writting an academic paper for perhaps the casteists.:=)) In the Diasporas, the WGDs are all inclusive. So Diaspora Goans today cannot complain that they are 'kept out' becasue of caste. It is true that this is once a year. For more frequent events, the Diaspora Goan who thinks there is a caste problem can have a social function and invite all, instead of complaining or talking about the problem. For amchem bagarachem Goem, are our 'problem-solving journalists' reading this so that they can provide the publicity to the across-the-caste festivities and the solutions?:=)) Regards, GL
[Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
JC. I have responded to you below to each of your comments. So you will see my thoughts in the final section, where your post appears. GL > Mario Goveia wrote: > Here is an excerpt from the article: "When India's founding Constituent > Assembly debated making concessions for Outcaste-Christians, Jerome > D'Souza, S.J., representing the Christians, rejected them, claiming there > is no caste in Christianity." He sounds just like you, Gilbert. > > Clearly in the late 40's Jerome D'Souza must have known that the caste > system was rampant among Goans. Obviously he had his eyes and ears closed. > > == > > Gilbert Lawrence responds: > > What you have put in quotes from its very English cannot be the words of > Jerome D'Souza but rather your's or someone else's interpretation of Jerome's > thoughts. It does not even tell us the context of the statement. Clearly the > Indian constitution was not being written for 2% of the population. > > Having said that, I fully support the statement there is "no caste in > Christianity." Do you disagree with that statement? > > What are your colors including confused? :=)) > Do you want to have your cake and eat it too? > Do you love to argue? Please be honest? > > > > Response from JC: > > In their opposition to the practice of that Apartheid Caste System, I > support Cornell and Mario. GL: Let's not argue the obvious. WE ALL OPPOSE the practice of apartheid caste system. (Should I repeat the prior statement ten times) So there are no martyrs for this cause. Those who claim that mantel by falsely accusing others (and now including the Bishop of Goa) are the true casteists (or nuts) in some angelic clothes. This is obvious from Mario's post where he is now very very angry with the Goa Catholic bishop and church of Goa for some imaginary or yet to be known reason/ link to caste. > In the above points, I support the points raised by you. GL: Now why is it I make sense to you and many others but not to these 'aum zano Goenkars'? To which escol did these two or three guys go to?:=)) Oh Yes, I did not mention the phantom nuns and priests. :=)) > I do NOT support the individual who wants to have his cake and eat it too. > Even if the Icing on the cakewalla's cake is full of Confusion. GL: You have made the right diagnosis of Confusion and Ignorance. Now can you prescribe some treatment. Yes, I know they are adults. :=)) > > Let us (for the sake of this discussion) assume that those were indeed Fr. > Jerome's words. > > 1. Did he say anything wrong ? GL: First that was what Mario posted when I asked him for Fr. Jerome's quote. Not to your question. That is precisely my point - Absolutely nothing wrong. So why are they quoting him? To discredit him? Misrepresent the priest? or do they not just understand what Fr. Jerome is saying? Again which escol did they go, which taught them 'the art of DISTORTIONS'. > 2. Is there Caste in Christianity? AND Would a person practicing the caste > system be a Christian ? GL: There is no caste-system in the teaching of Christianity. In Goa and in my diocese of Syracuse I do not see caste practices. I have asked you and others for documentation of a systematic /structural discrimination. A person practicing discrimination would not be a Christian. Period end of story! > 3. IF special concessions were made to a special subset of Christians (or > Hindus) based on the Caste System, would that be fighting or enhancing the > Caste System? GL: That would be Affirmative Action - Indian style! I support Affirmative action in the USA. Do you and others have a solution to correct past injustices? > I hope we have noted that the vast majority of Goans (in the late 40s and > 50s and before that) were NOT even considered in the scenario of the > Indian Constitution. They were after all, Portuguese Citizens.that > figure of 2% might merit from revision. GL: The figure of 2% is the proportion of Christians in India at the time the Indian constitution was written. Regards, GL
[Goanet]Re: Goan herrings & the researchwallas
GL responds: If it is not 'soglem casteists' then why go to the Bishop of Goa for redress? Since when does an institution get involved in some private, isolated attitudes and behavior? Do you guys want to make nebulous statements and then run away from you non- specific statements? Do I presume that since there is no interest in doing this study. the proponents of the statements do not think that much will be discovered? If no discrepancy is found among the various strata of Goan society, that will be the best educational tool to wipe out caste attitudes. If these is disparity, then we can know where the redress should be - educational, economic etc. It appears as subsequent posts on this thread show that there are many who want to talk and talk about a problem and not really solve it. Regards
[Goanet]RE: Goan herrings & research
Hi JC, Remember you guys are making the charge of 'soglem casteists'. But let me help you-all with the collection of data. I hope I can apply my methodical skills from my medical background. The accusation you guys seem to make is that there is: Systematic casteism in Goan society - native and Diaspora. Let's leave the Catholic Church out, since you are not 'smoking'. :=)):=)) Also por favor let's keep Sati and Inquisition out of this. These are not practices of today and for the last 150 years. So let's dialogue the theoretical and practical steps on what we can do now for the benefit of today's and tomorrow's Goan society. Also if the study wants to look at Hindu Society, as some experts have persuasively suggested we could have a category below for religion. That would be a good comparison between the two communities to see if the disparity exists, is it religious or only caste / social or geographic within Goa and/ or the Diaspora? I. Existence of Goan casteism and its impact on individuals and on the community regarding: 1. Name (optional), age, residence, religion and caste. 2. Education levels. 3. Jobs categories. 4. Income levels. 5. Marriage rates and partners. 6. Bachelor / Spinster. 7. Places to find a residence. 8. Travel difficulties. 9. Religious vocations. 10. Direct discrimination experience from one's religion. 11. Direct government related discrimination. 12. Unemployed period in the last 2 years. The data as far as possible will be facts (boxes to be filled) not explanations. The computer will do the tabulations. This may be a summer project for a Goan high school or college students or a sociology student working his PhD under one of the Goan sociology professors. II. Any other thoughts you and others may want to add to the survey including 'the Goan solutions' to solve the disparities and misconceptions. I hope we keep this constructive and not nitpick on the phraseology. THIS IS JUST THE START. For the serious, please build on it to develop the questionnaire that can be used in the survey. Do not criticize or write JUST to say some something. Goan sociologists PLEASE step forward to design and shepherd this study. No excuses like ... I am too busy. We all are!!! But it's our priority. Let Goans study Goans! Once again the above is how one would analyze a topic in medicine. Perhaps demographic and sociologists may have their own methodology. As JC said, he'd like a week to reply. That's great 'cause I am out for a week. I would certainly like to hear your and other comments and where do the anti-casteists go with this study to prove that Goan casteism exists and is thriving. Regards. GL JC: Dear Gilbertbab, Let me take your idea a step further. One step at a time. Which accusation(s) are you referring to?
[Goanet]Goans and Caste - Needy Goans
GL responds, Hi Cornell, Thanks for your post on this subject. I was impressed. Congratulations! Now would it not be better if we had spent all our Goan energy and efforts to try and reproduce what you do? Would not that be a better way to get Goans together and work and live more amicably across caste-lines? This may not be in 'Textbooks of Advanced Sociology'. But in my simple mind this help is more valuable in advancing our Goan culture and way of life. I hope with your experience and academic judgment you can transfer the present STRUCTURE OF SUCCESS in London to other Diasporas. If I can lend a hand from this side of the big pond, please do not hesitate to communicate. Dev borem korum ani amchim magnnim Dhonnia Devak tumcam soddanch bori saud (health) ani bolaiki (well-being) asunk. Regards, GL Cornel: Hi Gilbert, Re your specific question to me on help to "needy Goans" in London, I can't see the relevance at all to the ongoing debate on caste. However, as you are obviously dying to know, I can tell that I have been, among other associations, in the Goan Association as an editor with a last publication of forty-eight A4 pages, and while also in the welfare section, was able to help to seek accommodation for newcomers, and even house people in my own premises, briefly, as I was single then, and to obtain warm clothing for them from charity shops. In terms of generally helping people to adjust to a totally new environment with many hurdles to cross, I provided much advice/ help on the education of children from primary school to university. Additionally, help in writing letters to solicitors and immigration bodies, help in obtaining bank accounts and in obtaining council housing and also mortgages, help in registering for GP services, help in sorting out pension transfers from East Africa, and lots and lots of job references, particularly for old acquaintances who badly needed references from here and fast.
[Goanet]Goans MPs in Portuguese Parliament
GL:
The nice thing about analyzing history is that we do not have to be
defensive about it. We don't have an ax to grind, and we can even learn
for it. Of course compared to past history, some aspect of which we may
decry, it may appear that was better than current events.
I was analyzing Teotonio post and reading in between the lines. Of the 8
true-native Goans, only one Bernardo Francisco da Costa appears to have
returned to Goa to serve Goans. Nay, even he appears to have settled
down in Lisbon along with his offspring.:=))
In response to Gabriel's comment, the representation in the Portuguese
Cortes or British Parliament is by the economic interest of 'the people'
represented. So American colonies were represented in British parliament
by the colonists among the Tories or the predecessors (I think the
Wigs). They represented the rulers not the ruled. Similarly India was
represented in British parliament by the BARONS and LORDS who owned
shares of East India Company and subsequent owners of shipping lines
that carried trade from India and China to Europe.
So let's not be carried away by assuming that things were very different
in Portuguese colonies and Cortes. It depends on who does the
appointment/ electing and whose interests are represented and served. In
the current debate about caste, you can bet the economic interest of
which Goans (caste) was represented IF AT ALL.
Gabriel:
I hope the above answers a question you put some months ago as to
whether Goans were allowed to settle in Lisbon. Perhaps the question
was already answered before and the above confirms it.
Also confirmed (I presume - Teotonio would not state this) is that Goa,
or rather, Estado da India Portuguesa, had representation in Portuguese
Parliament ("cortes" during the monarchy and "parlamento" during the
republic and dictatorship), something that British India nor the
Americas did not enjoy in Britain during the British rule (hence the "no
taxation without representation" and the subsequent "Boston Tea Party"
which led to the American War of Indpendence - your knowledge of
American history would be sharper than mine on this topic since you're
"over there").
Teotonio R. de Souza wrote:
This research covers the period 1822-1892. There were 8 true blooded
native Goans during that period. The research only mentions briefly
their background in Goa but does not delve on their lives in Goa. It is
about their performance in the Parliament in Lisbon. But some of them
like Bernardo Peres da Silva, Constancio Roque da Costa, Bernardo
Francisco da Costa, Francisco Luis Gomes and Constancio Roque da Costa
(grandson) played a very active role in local politics in Goa.
Bernardo Francisco da Costa established the first private printing press
in Goa to publish his newspaper "O Ultramar" in 1859. It may be
considered a landmark in Goan cultural history. Bernardo Francisco da
Costa also managed to establish himself as president of an important
municipality in the suburbs of Lisbon ( in Almada) and one of his sons,
Alfredo da Costa was a well-known pediatrician whose name is given to a
prestigious maternity hospital in Lisbon.
[Goanet]Voice of the Exploited
GL responds: Santosh my friend, please do not assume anything. My writing speaks for itself. If you want to make more sense of it, please read it again and again. Then kindly contemplate on it rather than respond to it with a knee-jerk series of reactions or more questions. For all of us, it is easy to get technical on unimportant details and miss the line of reasoning. It may be nice and easy to make fame or a fast buck with writing fabrication (fiction) at somebody else's expense, reputation and physical suffering. But is it right? I am sure your statement below is followed by many cyberGoans. But to my simple mind, it needs a lawyer to interpret. :=)) The only reason I am making this point, so that I can seek your OK to move on to the next perspective. As per your post before last on this thread, do I have your permission? :=)), :=)) :=)) Thanks. Regards GL Santosh: That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you mean you have a problem with fiction which is presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact, which is rightly presented as fiction. Cheers,
[Goanet]RE: Goans and caste
Gabriel de Figueiredo Hi Gabriel, I fully concur with your post. That's the way I was taught and brought up by my family, and my village in Goa and in my Catholic education in Goa and in Bombay. So I do not know where these guys come up with blanket statements. Of course there are going to be the odd-balls, as in any society, that don't have manners and etiquette. But to brand a community and / or institution for casteism is 'just off the top'! And some are confusing individuals who are ignorant and impolite as casteists. Well these folks are inconsiderate and boorish TOWARDS THEIR OWN CASTE members be they upper or lower. I like the title they have given themselves - Anti-Casteist. So what are the rest of us? Pro-Casteist? As some audaciously pigeon-hole us! Can you or someone elucidate what is meant by varying grades of Bamons (or any other caste)? To me one is or one is not! Does the term suggest like varying shades of pompousness? :=)) Regards, Gilbert
