Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
> On Sep 5, 2023, at 8:17 AM, Clem Clarke wrote: > > Yes, we send a bug report way back in the 1960's at Shell Oil in Melbourne. > > We used COND codes a lot, and it mucked everything up! > > Clem > > > Colin Paice wrote: >> I heard that IEFBR14 had the highest "bug rate" per line of code >> 1) There was no CSECT statement >> 2) It was not reentrant >> 3) It did not clear R15 prior to exit >> 4) It was missing an end statement >> >> I was told this over 40 years ago... and may not be true Clem, I still remember getting called in at 2 AM because IEFBR14 did not set r15 with a zero before exiting. When I called it in to IBM and asked when can we expect a fix, I was told maybe in a month. I created my own version which did zero out r15. The next morning my boss’s boss came down from the tower and complemented me for fixing the issue. So quickly. Later on in the year they handed out bonuses and I got a nice 3,000.00 check. I did not do anything that any other competent sysprog would have done. Ed Ps: I just don’t remember the year but I think it was in the 1970’s (probably late), boy do I feel old. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
ISPF regexn are fairly basic, and evn with a PCRE level you wouldn't br able to
do things like these
CHANGE 73/80 TO X10+10 IN EVERY 3RD LINE OF 'ABC' 1/3 in 1.5-2/3.7+2
COPY 'BAL' 10/15 TO END
CHANGE 73/80 TO '' IN EVERY 3RD LINE START 2 OF 'BAL' 10/15
CHANGE '(' DIGITS*3 ')' TO SUBSTRING 2/4
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Leonard D Woren
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 7:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/8/2023 5:29 AM:
> I used SuperWylbur, but even in the free version you had associative ranges,
> which greatly simplified many editing tasks.
Doesn't current ISPF's regexp support let you do the same thing? Not
that I've learned yet how to do that stuff...
Even before regexps, you could always use the ISPF hack "X ALL", "F
ALL string", "C ALL NX oldstr newstr". Which is probably why I
haven't gotten around to learning regexps.
/Leonard
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--
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
On Fri, Sep 08, 2023 at 04:35:59PM -0700, Leonard D Woren wrote: You left out URSA at UCLA. Online editing as long as the file was RECFM FB/80/400. Pre 3270, 20 lines of 40 characters. Along with job submission and output view capability. > Just like the rest that I listed. So a failure, instead of taking out 1 TSO > user, takes out hundreds of users. URSA was reasonably stable once a few things were fixed. There was the problem of the total system & hardware (360/91) failure to deal with but separate address spaces wouldn't help with that (really seperate regions, this was MVT and before and after 1970). Just don't edit "NULLFILE" (keypunch used EXCP). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
This list is dying just like assembler. Another 5, maybe 10 years, both will be in the dustbin of history. In 10 years, most of the dominant posters will be gone. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, September 8, 2023, 7:44 PM, Tom Brennan wrote: I'd say head them over to https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalMainframers In spite of the name, it's 90% nostalgia - maybe more. And there are a lot of retired folks there to give upvotes and comments - unlike a new email group. For me, I don't mind anything reasonably on-topic. It's the political, know-it-all, truck speed limits, I-won-a-game-show type of posts that are driving people away. Tom's opinion. On 9/8/2023 2:17 PM, Mark Zelden wrote: > I'm with most of the posters... > > There needs to be an IBM-MAIN-NOSTALGIA list and these trips down memory lane > moved there when they start. > > I was pretty much gone from IBM-MAIN over the last 2-3 years due to just > being too busy > to try and keep up but recently have tried to start following again. The > signal to noise ratio > is near unbearable and much worse now. The bickering like children is > unprofessional. > > I follow from the web archives instead of email, but I guess to get any value > out of this > list and contribute when I can I'm going to have to seriously consider moving > to email and > filtering out the noise and certain posters like some others have done. Too > bad that > some people are being driven away completely. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I'd say head them over to https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalMainframers In spite of the name, it's 90% nostalgia - maybe more. And there are a lot of retired folks there to give upvotes and comments - unlike a new email group. For me, I don't mind anything reasonably on-topic. It's the political, know-it-all, truck speed limits, I-won-a-game-show type of posts that are driving people away. Tom's opinion. On 9/8/2023 2:17 PM, Mark Zelden wrote: I'm with most of the posters... There needs to be an IBM-MAIN-NOSTALGIA list and these trips down memory lane moved there when they start. I was pretty much gone from IBM-MAIN over the last 2-3 years due to just being too busy to try and keep up but recently have tried to start following again. The signal to noise ratio is near unbearable and much worse now. The bickering like children is unprofessional. I follow from the web archives instead of email, but I guess to get any value out of this list and contribute when I can I'm going to have to seriously consider moving to email and filtering out the noise and certain posters like some others have done. Too bad that some people are being driven away completely. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/8/2023 5:29 AM: I used SuperWylbur, but even in the free version you had associative ranges, which greatly simplified many editing tasks. Doesn't current ISPF's regexp support let you do the same thing? Not that I've learned yet how to do that stuff... Even before regexps, you could always use the ISPF hack "X ALL", "F ALL string", "C ALL NX oldstr newstr". Which is probably why I haven't gotten around to learning regexps. /Leonard -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Steve Thompson wrote on 9/7/2023 7:24 PM: You ever work with WYLBUR? Yes, at RAND circa 1976 as a guest of an employee, and at Stanford, which is where I quickly grew to hate it. Funny thing is, many of the other Stanford systems people started using TSO more as they saw what I could do with it. Single address space, Just like the rest that I listed. So a failure, instead of taking out 1 TSO user, takes out hundreds of users. Wylbur's ability to recover user's work from its own page files was both a blessing and curse -- users didn't lose more than one screen interaction of work, but it could take a long time for Wylbur to restart as it did that recovery. Had its own scripting language, so applications were written to run inside of Wylbur. Yet another tally mark in the disadvantages column. /Leonard -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Hercules 390 list often gets many of those conversations. Or trying to recreate the software. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 4:17 PM Mark Zelden wrote: > > I'm with most of the posters... > > There needs to be an IBM-MAIN-NOSTALGIA list and these trips down memory lane > moved there when they start. > > I was pretty much gone from IBM-MAIN over the last 2-3 years due to just > being too busy > to try and keep up but recently have tried to start following again. The > signal to noise ratio > is near unbearable and much worse now. The bickering like children is > unprofessional. > > I follow from the web archives instead of email, but I guess to get any value > out of this > list and contribute when I can I'm going to have to seriously consider moving > to email and > filtering out the noise and certain posters like some others have done. Too > bad that > some people are being driven away completely. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I'm with most of the posters... There needs to be an IBM-MAIN-NOSTALGIA list and these trips down memory lane moved there when they start. I was pretty much gone from IBM-MAIN over the last 2-3 years due to just being too busy to try and keep up but recently have tried to start following again. The signal to noise ratio is near unbearable and much worse now. The bickering like children is unprofessional. I follow from the web archives instead of email, but I guess to get any value out of this list and contribute when I can I'm going to have to seriously consider moving to email and filtering out the noise and certain posters like some others have done. Too bad that some people are being driven away completely. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
For what it's worth (which is not much, I realize) I generally read this kind of thread with interest and sometimes chime in. Not saying you're wrong, Rex, just casting my own vote the other way. There are lots of threads that don’t interest me, but it's very little work to ignore 'em. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* User error. Replace user and press any key to continue. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 09:31 Folks, This is not addressed to anybody in particular, but we really don't need to know of everybody's 30-40 year old experiences with now-defunct text editors. This kind of stuff is for sitting around a SKIDS table at Share (if those still exist) while having a beer, not on this list. Please stop the chatter on this. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Crawford Robert C (Contractor) Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 7:47 AM I used WYLBUR at Texas A University in the early 80's. It worked well enough for undergraduate programmers although it got very slow towards the end of the semester when everybody was trying to finish their final projects. The EXEC facility was pretty slick. I hated the line editor but didn't know any better. When I got my first real job someone showed me SPF edit and I thought I'd died on gone to heaven. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Folks, This is not addressed to anybody in particular, but we really don't need to know of everybody's 30-40 year old experiences with now-defunct text editors. This kind of stuff is for sitting around a SKIDS table at Share (if those still exist) while having a beer, not on this list. Please stop the chatter on this. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Crawford Robert C (Contractor) Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 7:47 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days I used WYLBUR at Texas A University in the early 80's. It worked well enough for undergraduate programmers although it got very slow towards the end of the semester when everybody was trying to finish their final projects. The EXEC facility was pretty slick. I hated the line editor but didn't know any better. When I got my first real job someone showed me SPF edit and I thought I'd died on gone to heaven. Robert Crawford Abstract Evolutions LLC (210) 913-3822 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 9:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXT] Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days You ever work with WYLBUR? Single address space, keeping users from crossing boundaries (RACF, ACF2, Top Secret and WACF). Could edit a library with RECFM=U. So one could keep source there if they wanted. Would, on close compress the PDS to a single extent if it could. Used very low level interfaces for allocation, such that SMS would not even see the file get opened or closed. So I had to finish fixing that so that in an SMS environment, that interface could be turned off (in testing we found we could cause MVS to have to be re-ipled), and then we used SVC99 for all allocations after that (SVC99 takes a lot of resources as I recall). Had its own scripting language, so applications were written to run inside of Wylbur. With the SRB mode, we could read JES2 spool directly (this was a problem, that I was going to fix when I got to implementing SAF sigh.) I have forgotten all the stuff that Wylbur did with stack processing, and all so it could handle 250 simultaneous users in one address space. That was another thing I needed to fix. I needed to change Wylbur Paging to use a larger number of pages to accommodate more users. (yes, it did its own paging, and interestingly enough, CICS was following along with what we did so that CICS/TS was doing what we had just done with task management). I absolutely loved working on Wylbur, best job I ever had after Amdahl MDF. Steve Thompson On 9/7/2023 9:15 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: > Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: >> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used >> less resources. I hated it. > > ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all > junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all > had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own > category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of > TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS. > > The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO > is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the > resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering > the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also > lowering productivity. Something beancounters generally don't factor > because they don't understand it. They liked the fact that a given > set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) > online users while TSO could support only 25. > > Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. > > > /Leonard > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you a
Re: [EXT] Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I used WYLBUR at Texas A University in the early 80's. It worked well enough for undergraduate programmers although it got very slow towards the end of the semester when everybody was trying to finish their final projects. The EXEC facility was pretty slick. I hated the line editor but didn't know any better. When I got my first real job someone showed me SPF edit and I thought I'd died on gone to heaven. Robert Crawford Abstract Evolutions LLC (210) 913-3822 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 9:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXT] Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days You ever work with WYLBUR? Single address space, keeping users from crossing boundaries (RACF, ACF2, Top Secret and WACF). Could edit a library with RECFM=U. So one could keep source there if they wanted. Would, on close compress the PDS to a single extent if it could. Used very low level interfaces for allocation, such that SMS would not even see the file get opened or closed. So I had to finish fixing that so that in an SMS environment, that interface could be turned off (in testing we found we could cause MVS to have to be re-ipled), and then we used SVC99 for all allocations after that (SVC99 takes a lot of resources as I recall). Had its own scripting language, so applications were written to run inside of Wylbur. With the SRB mode, we could read JES2 spool directly (this was a problem, that I was going to fix when I got to implementing SAF sigh.) I have forgotten all the stuff that Wylbur did with stack processing, and all so it could handle 250 simultaneous users in one address space. That was another thing I needed to fix. I needed to change Wylbur Paging to use a larger number of pages to accommodate more users. (yes, it did its own paging, and interestingly enough, CICS was following along with what we did so that CICS/TS was doing what we had just done with task management). I absolutely loved working on Wylbur, best job I ever had after Amdahl MDF. Steve Thompson On 9/7/2023 9:15 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: > Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: >> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used >> less resources. I hated it. > > ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all > junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all > had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own > category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of > TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS. > > The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO > is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the > resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering > the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also > lowering productivity. Something beancounters generally don't factor > because they don't understand it. They liked the fact that a given > set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) > online users while TSO could support only 25. > > Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. > > > /Leonard > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I used SuperWylbur, but even in the free version you had associative ranges, which greatly simplified many editing tasks. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Steve Thompson Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days You ever work with WYLBUR? Single address space, keeping users from crossing boundaries (RACF, ACF2, Top Secret and WACF). Could edit a library with RECFM=U. So one could keep source there if they wanted. Would, on close compress the PDS to a single extent if it could. Used very low level interfaces for allocation, such that SMS would not even see the file get opened or closed. So I had to finish fixing that so that in an SMS environment, that interface could be turned off (in testing we found we could cause MVS to have to be re-ipled), and then we used SVC99 for all allocations after that (SVC99 takes a lot of resources as I recall). Had its own scripting language, so applications were written to run inside of Wylbur. With the SRB mode, we could read JES2 spool directly (this was a problem, that I was going to fix when I got to implementing SAF sigh.) I have forgotten all the stuff that Wylbur did with stack processing, and all so it could handle 250 simultaneous users in one address space. That was another thing I needed to fix. I needed to change Wylbur Paging to use a larger number of pages to accommodate more users. (yes, it did its own paging, and interestingly enough, CICS was following along with what we did so that CICS/TS was doing what we had just done with task management). I absolutely loved working on Wylbur, best job I ever had after Amdahl MDF. Steve Thompson On 9/7/2023 9:15 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: > Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: >> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it >> used less resources. I hated it. > > ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were > all junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't > remember. They all had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for > Wylbur, a PITA in its own category, allow TSO-like online use > without the perceived overhead of TSO, and also, they would run > on systems other than MVS. > > The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower > than TSO is that it took longer for programmers to get their > work done, so the resource utilization was spread out over more > elapsed time, lowering the apparent resources used in a given > elapsed time period, but also lowering productivity. Something > beancounters generally don't factor because they don't > understand it. They liked the fact that a given set of > hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) > online users while TSO could support only 25. > > Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. > > > /Leonard > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - TSO alternatives
We had several products from West Palm Beach running under SVS, one of which was Full Screen Editor (FSE); it made life a lot easier in the days when SPF was not yet available. Their Superset Utilities replaced IBM's COPY, FORMAT, LIST AND MERGE, which IBM never got working right. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Hitefield Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - TSO alternatives TONE was a single-address space player too. I converted a shop from VS1 to MVS/370. On the VS1 machine we had TONE (TSO for VS1). It worked fairly well, other than the fact it was a single address space. I do recall when we went live with MVS/370 on our first weekend test, none of the developers wanted to go back to TONE. They really preferred TSO and ISPF to TONE. At a shop I worked at on the Texas Gulf coast we ran VS2 (prior to MVS being an actual product). We were one of the first sites in the are to try SPF (before "I"SPF was a thing). It was a new concept, as everyone was used to ye olde line editor (this was in the 70s). Once you picked up on what SPF was doing, it made work a whole lot easier. Bill Hitefield > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Leonard D Woren > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2023 9:15 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days > > Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: > > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all junk. > TONE, > ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all had 1 two-pronged > design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own category, allow TSO-like > online > use without the perceived overhead of TSO, and also, they would run on systems > other than MVS. > > The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO is > that it > took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the resource > utilization > was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering the apparent resources used > in a given elapsed time period, but also lowering productivity. Something > beancounters generally don't factor because they don't understand it. They > liked the fact that a given set of hardware could support 50 (choose your > poison > from above) online users while TSO could support only 25. > > Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. > > > /Leonard > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - TSO alternatives
TONE was a single-address space player too. I converted a shop from VS1 to MVS/370. On the VS1 machine we had TONE (TSO for VS1). It worked fairly well, other than the fact it was a single address space. I do recall when we went live with MVS/370 on our first weekend test, none of the developers wanted to go back to TONE. They really preferred TSO and ISPF to TONE. At a shop I worked at on the Texas Gulf coast we ran VS2 (prior to MVS being an actual product). We were one of the first sites in the are to try SPF (before "I"SPF was a thing). It was a new concept, as everyone was used to ye olde line editor (this was in the 70s). Once you picked up on what SPF was doing, it made work a whole lot easier. Bill Hitefield > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Leonard D Woren > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2023 9:15 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days > > Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: > > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all junk. > TONE, > ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all had 1 two-pronged > design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own category, allow TSO-like > online > use without the perceived overhead of TSO, and also, they would run on systems > other than MVS. > > The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO is > that it > took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the resource > utilization > was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering the apparent resources used > in a given elapsed time period, but also lowering productivity. Something > beancounters generally don't factor because they don't understand it. They > liked the fact that a given set of hardware could support 50 (choose your > poison > from above) online users while TSO could support only 25. > > Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. > > > /Leonard > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
You ever work with WYLBUR? Single address space, keeping users from crossing boundaries (RACF, ACF2, Top Secret and WACF). Could edit a library with RECFM=U. So one could keep source there if they wanted. Would, on close compress the PDS to a single extent if it could. Used very low level interfaces for allocation, such that SMS would not even see the file get opened or closed. So I had to finish fixing that so that in an SMS environment, that interface could be turned off (in testing we found we could cause MVS to have to be re-ipled), and then we used SVC99 for all allocations after that (SVC99 takes a lot of resources as I recall). Had its own scripting language, so applications were written to run inside of Wylbur. With the SRB mode, we could read JES2 spool directly (this was a problem, that I was going to fix when I got to implementing SAF sigh.) I have forgotten all the stuff that Wylbur did with stack processing, and all so it could handle 250 simultaneous users in one address space. That was another thing I needed to fix. I needed to change Wylbur Paging to use a larger number of pages to accommodate more users. (yes, it did its own paging, and interestingly enough, CICS was following along with what we did so that CICS/TS was doing what we had just done with task management). I absolutely loved working on Wylbur, best job I ever had after Amdahl MDF. Steve Thompson On 9/7/2023 9:15 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less resources. I hated it. ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS. The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also lowering productivity. Something beancounters generally don't factor because they don't understand it. They liked the fact that a given set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) online users while TSO could support only 25. Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. /Leonard -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I agree. ROSCOE was clunky & less productive. I’ve never used the other TSO alternatives. I seem to remember vaguely ROSCOE requiring the user to “attach” the member you wanted to edit but that was 35 years ago. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 9:15 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS. The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also lowering productivity. Something beancounters generally don't factor because they don't understand it. They liked the fact that a given set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) online users while TSO could support only 25. Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. /Leonard -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Roscoe was one address space so everything was there when you logged in. Much like using a CICS editor. On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 8:15 PM Leonard D Woren wrote: > > Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: > > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > > resources. I hated it. > > ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all > junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all > had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own > category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of > TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS. > > The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO > is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the > resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering > the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also > lowering productivity. Something beancounters generally don't factor > because they don't understand it. They liked the fact that a given > set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) > online users while TSO could support only 25. > > Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. > > > /Leonard > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM: We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less resources. I hated it. ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all junk. TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember. They all had 1 two-pronged design goal: except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS. The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also lowering productivity. Something beancounters generally don't factor because they don't understand it. They liked the fact that a given set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) online users while TSO could support only 25. Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people. /Leonard -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I used ROSCOE in a couple of sites. Once you got used to it, it was better than TSO EDIT with the same footprint. RPF was easier to master than ISPF/PDF and it had a lot of similarities with REXX. I regressed back to a DOS/VSE shop for a while. A 4331 with 1 MB of memory. We managed to run CICS with ADABAS and write all the code in PL/I. ICCF was our only editor. It was a dog. A few years later I found myself in another VSE shop and they had VOLLIE. Way better than ICCF. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 10:42 AM Roberto Halais wrote: > This list is becoming like Tik Tok. Enough. > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 8:37 PM Lance D. Jackson < > ljack...@pandrueassociates.com> wrote: > > > UNSUBSCRIBE- I'm OUT! You guys go on far too long about stories no one > > else is interested in. You should consider taking these drawn out > > discussions offline. > > > > > On 07/09/2023 15:56 EDT Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > > > > > > > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > > > > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > > > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > > > modules though. Bleah. > > > > > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > > > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > > > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > > > to 500 MB. > > > > > > /Leonard > > > > > > > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: > > > > I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on > > behalf of Clem Clarke > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM > > > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early > days > > > > > > > > > > > > Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Wayne V. Bickerdike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
This list is becoming like Tik Tok. Enough. On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 8:37 PM Lance D. Jackson < ljack...@pandrueassociates.com> wrote: > UNSUBSCRIBE- I'm OUT! You guys go on far too long about stories no one > else is interested in. You should consider taking these drawn out > discussions offline. > > > On 07/09/2023 15:56 EDT Leonard D Woren wrote: > > > > > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > > modules though. Bleah. > > > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > > to 500 MB. > > > > /Leonard > > > > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: > > > I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. > > > > > > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on > behalf of Clem Clarke > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM > > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days > > > > > > > > > Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. > > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
UNSUBSCRIBE- I'm OUT! You guys go on far too long about stories no one else is interested in. You should consider taking these drawn out discussions offline. > On 07/09/2023 15:56 EDT Leonard D Woren wrote: > > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: > > I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. > > > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > > Clem Clarke > > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days > > > > > > Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Agree. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 8:00 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote: We used it at a bank because of the number of application developers. TSO was reserved for system programmers. Also, it was limited in what you could do with the OS. made sense for the purpose but it was not a lot of fun. It was like being moderated at every turn. TSO, was, Liberating. Matt Hogstrom PGP key 0F143BC1 > On Sep 7, 2023, at 15:41, Bob Bridges wrote: > > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I didn’t start it. But, I’ll bet I get the warnings. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 7:21 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: And, they're off again. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* "If dickering won't work, then you have to fight. But I think maybe it takes a man who has been shot at to appreciate how much better it is to fumble your way through a political compromise rather than have the top of your head blown off." He frowned and suddenly looked very old. "When to talk and when to fight -- that is the most difficult decision to make wisely of all the decisions in life." -from _Podkayne of Mars_, by Robert A Heinlein */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Spiegel Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 18:50 Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. --- On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
1972-3. My high school was rated one of the best high schools in America. And just recently received an award for being one of the best again. (Last week) The Ohio rankings are dragged down by white rural MAGA schools and inner city students. The suburban schools in my area are top performers, nationally. I’ve been published approximately 100 times in the local newspaper. Also in Information Week. Mostly political in the newspaper. Because I’m politically active. I also ran for commissioner. Ran 2 businesses, including one that did business with the mafia. Was on the Millionaire show with Regis. Missed the hot seat by .08. I was 4 time spelling runner up in grade school. My spelling and grammar can be perfect when I care. Which I don’t on this list. Heck, some posters are barely literate. I’m making you the grammar and spelling police. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 7:14 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, According to a recent study, Ohio ranked 36. I'm not so sure I would want to boast about that. Please see: 2023’s States with the Best & Worst School Systems (wallethub.com)<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335> Regards, David [https://cdn.wallethub.com/wallethub/posts/94009/states-with-the-best-worst-school-systems.png]<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335> 2023’s States with the Best & Worst School Systems<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335> wallethub.com From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: September 7, 2023 6:59 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: >> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of >> Clem Clarke >> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days >> >> >> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
We used it at a bank because of the number of application developers. TSO was reserved for system programmers. Also, it was limited in what you could do with the OS. made sense for the purpose but it was not a lot of fun. It was like being moderated at every turn. TSO, was, Liberating. Matt Hogstrom PGP key 0F143BC1 > On Sep 7, 2023, at 15:41, Bob Bridges wrote: > > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
And, they're off again. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* "If dickering won't work, then you have to fight. But I think maybe it takes a man who has been shot at to appreciate how much better it is to fumble your way through a political compromise rather than have the top of your head blown off." He frowned and suddenly looked very old. "When to talk and when to fight -- that is the most difficult decision to make wisely of all the decisions in life." -from _Podkayne of Mars_, by Robert A Heinlein */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Spiegel Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 18:50 Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. --- On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
English your second language? The program from the awards ceremony. I still have it. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 7:15 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... I still have the awards program ..." Please translate this statement into English. Regards, David From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: September 7, 2023 6:59 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: >> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of >> Clem Clarke >> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days >> >> >> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Hi Bill, You said: "... I still have the awards program ..." Please translate this statement into English. Regards, David From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: September 7, 2023 6:59 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: >> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of >> Clem Clarke >> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days >> >> >> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Hi Bill, According to a recent study, Ohio ranked 36. I'm not so sure I would want to boast about that. Please see: 2023’s States with the Best & Worst School Systems (wallethub.com)<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335> Regards, David [https://cdn.wallethub.com/wallethub/posts/94009/states-with-the-best-worst-school-systems.png]<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335> 2023’s States with the Best & Worst School Systems<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335> wallethub.com From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: September 7, 2023 6:59 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: >> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of >> Clem Clarke >> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days >> >> >> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: >> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of >> Clem Clarke >> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days >> >> >> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
LOLOLOLOL, I love that you’re obsessed with me. Are you getting enough sleep? Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: > We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less > resources. I hated it. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren > wrote: > > What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. > > MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot > you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay > modules though. Bleah. > > The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in > efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware > languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up > to 500 MB. > > /Leonard > > > Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: >> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of >> Clem Clarke >> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days >> >> >> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Hi Bill, You said: "... because it used less resources ..." Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage. For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you to write more correctly. It might even increase your credibility. Regards, David On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote: We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less resources. I hated it. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay modules though. Bleah. The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up to 500 MB. /Leonard Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Clem Clarke Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Not a 2 MiB region; that was the installed memory. I don't recall how big our TSO regions were. This was on a 370/165 running OS/360, then upgraded* to a 370/168 running SVS. We had a fixd-head disk, which helped performance. The students ran PL/I and FORTRAN programs on TSO, not just assembler. * Yes, I know, you supposedly can only upgrade to a 370/165 II, but IBM really did not want the Technion to go to CDC. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Leonard D Woren Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 3:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay modules though. Bleah. The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up to 500 MB. /Leonard Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: > I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Clem Clarke > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days > > > Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I had been using TSO/ISPF for a decade mostly at GM, then EDS when GM bought them. Before accepting the job at the small local company (hospital) that used ROSCOE. In my programming days. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 4:41 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: If you can explain why without deriding anyone, Bill, I'd be interested in knowing why. I first encountered ROSCOE in 1980 and used it for a while without thinking much about it. When I realized I could change things around in it, I got excited. It was another two years before I was exposed to ISPF. I still have ROSCOE on my resume, but there isn't much excuse for it; I haven't touched it since then, so if anyone asked me to do anything with it I'd have to start over. If you were already familiar with ISPF and thought ROSCOE a poorer product, I guess that makes sense. I didn't know anything about ISPF until ~after~ ROSCOE, so I was unable to compare them. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* A woman means by Unselfishness chiefly taking trouble for others; a man means not giving trouble for othersThus while the woman thinks of doing good offices and the man of respecting other people's rights, each sex, without any obvious unreason, can and does regard the other as radically selfish. -from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 16:06 We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less resources. I hated it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
If you can explain why without deriding anyone, Bill, I'd be interested in knowing why. I first encountered ROSCOE in 1980 and used it for a while without thinking much about it. When I realized I could change things around in it, I got excited. It was another two years before I was exposed to ISPF. I still have ROSCOE on my resume, but there isn't much excuse for it; I haven't touched it since then, so if anyone asked me to do anything with it I'd have to start over. If you were already familiar with ISPF and thought ROSCOE a poorer product, I guess that makes sense. I didn't know anything about ISPF until ~after~ ROSCOE, so I was unable to compare them. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* A woman means by Unselfishness chiefly taking trouble for others; a man means not giving trouble for othersThus while the woman thinks of doing good offices and the man of respecting other people's rights, each sex, without any obvious unreason, can and does regard the other as radically selfish. -from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 16:06 We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less resources. I hated it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less resources. I hated it. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay modules though. Bleah. The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up to 500 MB. /Leonard Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: > I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Clem Clarke > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days > > > Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region? What hardware. MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB . There was a lot you could do, although it was slow. I did experiment with overlay modules though. Bleah. The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in efficient languages, like Assembler. None of these modern bloatware languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up to 500 MB. /Leonard Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM: I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Clem Clarke Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Dead tree? That was excusable in the 1960s, but it's a lot harder to find things on paper. If the programmer didn't have a SYSMDUMP I can at least browse the dump on SPOOL; releasing the dump to print just adds to the work. I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Clem Clarke Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days I used to arrive at work every morning to have to wade through a two foot high paper system dump to see why an OS abend had occurred that night. Every night, pretty well in the early days! MFT, MVT, MVS. MVS was a LOT better. Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. We used to keep the IBM SE's pretty busy in the 1960's and 1970's. Shell Oil Melbourne used to have English Electric Leo computers, and moved to an IBM 65. The English Leos were pretty much the first commercial computers available. Fully multi programming in the '60s. And we were seriously into PL./I - all our Cleo programs were converted to PL/I (F). CLEO was a bit like COBOL - absolutely excellent for commercial programs. Clem Colin Paice wrote: > I remember going to a customer to discuss a deep technical problem. Before > they let us into the inner sanctum were given a dump and were asked "what's > the problem?" My colleague looked at it and said there is a program check > at this address, and this is fixed in ptf uy " come on in you've > passed" they said . They said this weeded out non technical people > > On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 23:32 Bernd Oppolzer > wrote: > >> Hi Peter, >> >> this reminds me of another story ... >> >> some day my customer (a large insurance company here in Germany) asked >> me to talk with their IBM rep, >> because we had a severe problem with one of the DB2 components which I >> discovered, and I was asked to >> have IBM fix it or otherwise provide a solution of my own (it was in the >> DB2 interface for Batch - CAF - IIRC, >> and it used 5 % of the overall CPU in some of our IMS regions simply by >> walking sequentially through >> some MVS control blocks chains) >> >> So I called the IBM rep, and the first thing he asked me was: "are you a >> systems programmer"? >> and, although I wasn't sure at that time what that means, I said: "yes, >> but why do you want to know?", >> and he said: "well, if not, we're not gonna talk with you" >> >> :-) >> >> Kind regards >> >> Bernd >> >> >> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:23 schrieb Peter Sylvester: >>> Namen sind Schall und Rauch, >>> >>> Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the >>> looking glass. >>> >>> It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript >>> >>> https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other >>> gems in that directory). >>> >>> "song" = "what is your profession." >>> >>> >>> Peter Sylvester >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
My interview for my first full-time job, at a big Savings and Loan in 1979 (after the HR interview) with my to-be boss Les went like this: he picked up a thick post-bound continuous-form listing, opened it to a random spot, pointed to an assembler instruction and asked "what does this do?" Did that 2 more times and his 4th question was "how much money do you want?" That place was a zoo. Two weeks later Les quit. His boss calls all of the workgroup into his office, points to Les and says "now here we have a rat deserting a sinking ship." He was half-right. It was a sinking ship. I gave it 3 years but it survived 6 years. Oh, and a few months later that manager was fired. BTW, I don't remember too well now, 44 years later, but I think most of the application code was in assembler. CICS macro-level was brand-new and we hadn't started using it yet, and under the covers, it was still assembler. Sort of. In those days, the Federal government tightly controlled account types, terms, interest rates, everything. One day the company got authorization for a new account type. A few days later we get a call that the new account type wasn't broken out separately on some report. A group of us assembler programmers managed to find the source. In DYL250, which none of us knew although I had a vague awareness of how DYL250 worked. So with about 5 of them gathered around, I open up the source in what passed for an online editor. We stared at it, decided to clone "this" line to "over there", "change this column to xyz", "no it has to be higher up", etc. After a few minutes of this, I saved the updated source and ran it and it worked. From that I conclude that "a good programmer doesn't have to know what's doing." I don't know Pascal, but I modified a Pascal program once. (It was torture.) In my career, I've modified a few programs in languages that I don't know. I'll stick with HLA, although I keep saying I need to learn Metal/C. Assembler with a good Structured Programming Macros set is almost as good as C, probably better in a number of ways, at least if you have HLA watching over your shoulder. /Leonard Colin Paice wrote on 9/6/2023 12:54 AM: I remember going to a customer to discuss a deep technical problem. Before they let us into the inner sanctum were given a dump and were asked "what's the problem?" My colleague looked at it and said there is a program check at this address, and this is fixed in ptf uy " come on in you've passed" they said . They said this weeded out non technical people -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Please can this conversation be moved to the assembler list (and so give it usage!) Thank you Colin On Wed, 6 Sept 2023 at 14:35, Phil Smith III wrote: > Clem, I've never heard of CLEO. Should I assume it's NOT the same CLEO > that comes up when I search "cleo programming language"? That one looks > like some modern scripting thing. > > > > It's pretty interesting these languages that came and went. You'd think > that there would still be pockets of each, but I suppose the death of the > last compiler is what really puts the final nail in the coffin. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
Clem, I've never heard of CLEO. Should I assume it's NOT the same CLEO that comes up when I search "cleo programming language"? That one looks like some modern scripting thing. It's pretty interesting these languages that came and went. You'd think that there would still be pockets of each, but I suppose the death of the last compiler is what really puts the final nail in the coffin. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Personal Attacks - Psychology
I was told many years ago by a professional (her 'field' was in manic depression and anger management, particularly children) that feeling a loss of control is the cause of much (most?) anger. It made a lot of sense to me, and since then I've observed that this appears to be mostly, if not entirely, true. Maybe just me suffering from confirmation bias, but it certainly appears to be a valid observation. It also explains (to me) conspiracy thinking - 'knowing' gives a sense of 'control'. As always, YMMV. I think I'll go back to lurking. I'm not contributing much related to the purpose of the list... On 9/6/2023 5:04 AM, Clem Clarke wrote: ... Since then I have made a study of narcissism and similar., I have discovered that we humans are an interesting lot! Apparently, if you put enough pressure or fear into people (such as raise interest rates to impossible levels) the frontal thinking lobe shuts down our brain, and we literally cannot think logically, and just go into fight, flight or freeze. Interesting. Clem ... Brian Westerman wrote: Personal attacks are really not warranted. I think we can discuss our systems programming beliefs without attacking someone. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Personal Attacks - Psychology
I wrote some code about 13 years ago. It allowed long parameters, and even more importantly, it allowed card files to be generated with symbolic parameter replacement for typical utilities in "card" files. And effectively it allows card files to be stored in Proclibs with parameters or symbolics being replaced. Very useful. More about this in a few days. However, some IBM guy attacked me over some code I had used from MVS to allow programs that needed to be authorised if necessary. Code from the Initiator. IBM tested code! He was VERY rude, and so I just disconnected from this group, effectively, despite the fact that I have been a System Programmer since the 1960's. And I developed an entire replacement language for JCL that was used for decades by some of the largest companies in the world. IBM was going to sell it but some people effectively stole it. Since then I have made a study of narcissism and similar., I have discovered that we humans are an interesting lot! Apparently, if you put enough pressure or fear into people (such as raise interest rates to impossible levels) the frontal thinking lobe shuts down our brain, and we literally cannot think logically, and just go into fight, flight or freeze. Interesting. Some people don't believe in Climate Change. But if you look deeper, behind the Murdoch/Fox news, there really are fires and floods all over the earth. Just a few years ago in Australia, we had massive fires in the Bega region. Some of my best friends lost everything in the fires. They just died a few months later. They had lost everything. We should all be helping each other to make a better world. Even a better computing world. Let's do it! Clem Brian Westerman wrote: Personal attacks are really not warranted. I think we can discuss our systems programming beliefs without attacking someone. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
I used to arrive at work every morning to have to wade through a two foot high paper system dump to see why an OS abend had occurred that night. Every night, pretty well in the early days! MFT, MVT, MVS. MVS was a LOT better. Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting. And VERY slow. We used to keep the IBM SE's pretty busy in the 1960's and 1970's. Shell Oil Melbourne used to have English Electric Leo computers, and moved to an IBM 65. The English Leos were pretty much the first commercial computers available. Fully multi programming in the '60s. And we were seriously into PL./I - all our Cleo programs were converted to PL/I (F). CLEO was a bit like COBOL - absolutely excellent for commercial programs. Clem Colin Paice wrote: I remember going to a customer to discuss a deep technical problem. Before they let us into the inner sanctum were given a dump and were asked "what's the problem?" My colleague looked at it and said there is a program check at this address, and this is fixed in ptf uy " come on in you've passed" they said . They said this weeded out non technical people On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 23:32 Bernd Oppolzer wrote: Hi Peter, this reminds me of another story ... some day my customer (a large insurance company here in Germany) asked me to talk with their IBM rep, because we had a severe problem with one of the DB2 components which I discovered, and I was asked to have IBM fix it or otherwise provide a solution of my own (it was in the DB2 interface for Batch - CAF - IIRC, and it used 5 % of the overall CPU in some of our IMS regions simply by walking sequentially through some MVS control blocks chains) So I called the IBM rep, and the first thing he asked me was: "are you a systems programmer"? and, although I wasn't sure at that time what that means, I said: "yes, but why do you want to know?", and he said: "well, if not, we're not gonna talk with you" :-) Kind regards Bernd Am 04.09.2023 um 16:23 schrieb Peter Sylvester: Namen sind Schall und Rauch, Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass. It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other gems in that directory). "song" = "what is your profession." Peter Sylvester -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I remember going to a customer to discuss a deep technical problem. Before they let us into the inner sanctum were given a dump and were asked "what's the problem?" My colleague looked at it and said there is a program check at this address, and this is fixed in ptf uy " come on in you've passed" they said . They said this weeded out non technical people On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 23:32 Bernd Oppolzer wrote: > Hi Peter, > > this reminds me of another story ... > > some day my customer (a large insurance company here in Germany) asked > me to talk with their IBM rep, > because we had a severe problem with one of the DB2 components which I > discovered, and I was asked to > have IBM fix it or otherwise provide a solution of my own (it was in the > DB2 interface for Batch - CAF - IIRC, > and it used 5 % of the overall CPU in some of our IMS regions simply by > walking sequentially through > some MVS control blocks chains) > > So I called the IBM rep, and the first thing he asked me was: "are you a > systems programmer"? > and, although I wasn't sure at that time what that means, I said: "yes, > but why do you want to know?", > and he said: "well, if not, we're not gonna talk with you" > > :-) > > Kind regards > > Bernd > > > Am 04.09.2023 um 16:23 schrieb Peter Sylvester: > > Namen sind Schall und Rauch, > > > > Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the > > looking glass. > > > > It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript > > > > https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other > > gems in that directory). > > > > "song" = "what is your profession." > > > > > > Peter Sylvester > > > > > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I did regular ASSEMBLER training, provided by training companies here in Germany, in the 1990 to 2005 time frame. Since then, there indeed was not much demand. I worked for different mainframe customers since 2000 until today (I'm a freelancer), and every one of them had some ASSEMBLER programs (more or less). In fact, there was one, who used C on the mainframe heavily; this customer didn't have much ASSEMBLER, IIRC. Only C and PL/1. The co-workers at two of my current customer's sites are asking for ASSEMBLER training, but the management there doesn't want to pay the price, because they don't see the need. But they both have ASSEMBLER programs (one more, the other less), and so I have to fix the problems with the ASSEMBLER code bases myself. At one of these sites (which has a large ASSEMBLER code base), they once made me hold a class for ASSEMBLER sysprogs in the 2010 time frame (IIRC). I always told them (since 2000 ca.): if you don't want to run into problems, send me 10 guys or young ladies at the age of 30, but they sent me 3, which were 45 years old already. 2 of them are still there, but they don't do much. IMO, the ASSEMBLER expertise and the support is still needed until 2030, at least, at this particular company. But I'm 71 then ... not sure, how this can work. I am not marketing ASSEMBLER trainings beyond the scope of my current customers. Because it is not necessary; I am in charge all the time. But, of course, if someone reads this and is interested, feel free to ask. I will set up an ASSEMBLER class for you ... somewhere in Europe, at best. Languages are German, English and French. Other classes, too, like DB2 or PL/1. Call me offline or look at my website. Kind regards Bernd Am 06.09.2023 um 00:49 schrieb Bill Johnson: Offering? To me it sounds like there’s no demand or there would actually be classes available to select as we write. There’s really nothing scheduled and likely won’t be. Because there’s no demand. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:38 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote: I offer training classes, Steve Thompson does. If a company really wants ASSEMBLER training, they can find it here. Am 04.09.2023 um 22:35 schrieb Bill Johnson: I love how many of you downplay others who don’t do what you do. And act like it’s inferior. Plus, puff yourselves up simply for programming in Assembler. I made a boatload of money in 40+ years performing nearly every task on the mainframe. I can also code in Assembler, just never needed to. Assembler is still dying, as the Assembler listserv attests. Plus, the fact it’s nearly impossible to find a company that offers training classes in it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Offering? To me it sounds like there’s no demand or there would actually be classes available to select as we write. There’s really nothing scheduled and likely won’t be. Because there’s no demand. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:38 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote: I offer training classes, Steve Thompson does. If a company really wants ASSEMBLER training, they can find it here. Am 04.09.2023 um 22:35 schrieb Bill Johnson: > I love how many of you downplay others who don’t do what you do. And act like > it’s inferior. Plus, puff yourselves up simply for programming in Assembler. > I made a boatload of money in 40+ years performing nearly every task on the > mainframe. I can also code in Assembler, just never needed to. Assembler is > still dying, as the Assembler listserv attests. Plus, the fact it’s nearly > impossible to find a company that offers training classes in it. > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Hi Peter, this reminds me of another story ... some day my customer (a large insurance company here in Germany) asked me to talk with their IBM rep, because we had a severe problem with one of the DB2 components which I discovered, and I was asked to have IBM fix it or otherwise provide a solution of my own (it was in the DB2 interface for Batch - CAF - IIRC, and it used 5 % of the overall CPU in some of our IMS regions simply by walking sequentially through some MVS control blocks chains) So I called the IBM rep, and the first thing he asked me was: "are you a systems programmer"? and, although I wasn't sure at that time what that means, I said: "yes, but why do you want to know?", and he said: "well, if not, we're not gonna talk with you" :-) Kind regards Bernd Am 04.09.2023 um 16:23 schrieb Peter Sylvester: Namen sind Schall und Rauch, Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass. It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other gems in that directory). "song" = "what is your profession." Peter Sylvester -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Sprechen Sie Englische? I never said any such thing. I’m an expert in many IT things. But, more a jack of all IT things with an ability to pick up things rapidly. And I’ve done everything. Operations, programming, DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, consulting, Ops Manager, z/OS “installer”, third party software expertise, MQ Admin, IMS DB/DC programming, others. JCL is just one area. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:35 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote: So your JCL expertise qualifies you as a systems programmer ... that's interesting. Am 04.09.2023 um 17:57 schrieb Bill Johnson: > To claim people who don’t code assembler or read dumps aren’t systems > programmers is idiotic. > > ... > > I learned zero JCL in college. I learned and became an expert at EDS. But, > college gave me the wherewithal to know how to study and succeed. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I offer training classes, Steve Thompson does. If a company really wants ASSEMBLER training, they can find it here. Am 04.09.2023 um 22:35 schrieb Bill Johnson: I love how many of you downplay others who don’t do what you do. And act like it’s inferior. Plus, puff yourselves up simply for programming in Assembler. I made a boatload of money in 40+ years performing nearly every task on the mainframe. I can also code in Assembler, just never needed to. Assembler is still dying, as the Assembler listserv attests. Plus, the fact it’s nearly impossible to find a company that offers training classes in it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
So your JCL expertise qualifies you as a systems programmer ... that's interesting. Am 04.09.2023 um 17:57 schrieb Bill Johnson: To claim people who don’t code assembler or read dumps aren’t systems programmers is idiotic. ... I learned zero JCL in college. I learned and became an expert at EDS. But, college gave me the wherewithal to know how to study and succeed. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Hi SMJ, you got me, I took the quote from a CS book :-) On 04/09/2023 17:35, Seymour J Metz wrote: ITYM quotation, and IMHO that quote should be part of the curriculum for any school of CS, cited whenevealmost 50 years agor discussing handles, indirect addressing or pointers. It wouldn't hurt for the IBM tech writers to keep it in mind when documenting parameters. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Peter Sylvester Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 10:23 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive Namen sind Schall und Rauch, Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass. It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other gems in that directory). "song" = "what is your profession." Peter Sylvester -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Agree completely. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 9:59 AM, Doug Fuerst wrote: I also think that what many of us seem to forget is that skills need to be used to stay sharp and to learn new things in that field. If you are not doing Assembler a fair amount of time, the skill dulls. Some of the worse assembler I have ever seen was written by people who had not written it in a few years, and often I had to deal with systems heavily modded because somebody "loved" coding in assembler. And sadly the code was not really much better. The same goes for dump reading, performance issues like WLM, or really anything. This is a case where specialization is preferred, but my guess is most of us are generalists, and simply do not have the time or resources to become experts in every part of MVS there is (excuse me z/OS and the are ALOT of parts.) Doug Fuerst -- Original Message -- >From "Brian Westerman" To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date 9/5/2023 6:32:27 AM Subject Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive >Equating college and systems programming is not really logical. I'm not aware >of any colleges that "teach" how to be a systems programmer. I think some may >have tried, but I doubt it would be a big draw. > >I have a PhD, but I didn't learn to write assembler in college, at least not >any that would be usable as a systems programmer. > >I don't think everyone needs to learn how to read dumps or write assembler to >be a systems administrator, but to be a systems programmer is seems very >practical. I can't imagine working with an operating system for a large >number of years without being able to read or write the code it's generated >with. > >But that's just my opinion, I'm sure there are people who consider themselves >to be systems programmers that don't have any knowledge of assembler or know >how to read a dump, or know how to use SMP/e very well or understand ACS >coding or writing REXX or understanding the ins and outs of WLM. My personal >opinion is that it would give me an ulcer to not know what I was doing. > >Brian > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
This is quite true. Back in the days of MVS/SE2 (pre SP1) we already had heavy assembly language people (wrote in ALC and conditional assembly day in and day out) say that we were at the point where no one could know all of the system (MVS environment) -- or be Mr. MVS as it were. And we were just running JES2, TCAM & BTAM on a S/370-158. By the time we (the industry) got into MVS/SP3 (ESA), how many subsystems were there? And that handy dandy chart that showed what was connected to what was no longer being produced. I've been tempted many times to build a new one. Invitation to MVS is rather obsolete as is MVS Power Programming. SYSPLEX, WLM, IP Stack, SMS/ACS, CICS/TS, DB2, etc. Being a Generalist, how can one get all that in their head and keep it there? And stay current? There have been times when I needed to know the interplay between VSM and RSM with paging so I could understand how 64bit addressing would handle things Then 3390 has broken the geometry because you have to have the new version of NOTE/POINT to handle EAV/EAS volumes, plus PDSE made big changes and now it is a GDG thing! Steve Thompson On 9/5/2023 9:59 AM, Doug Fuerst wrote: I also think that what many of us seem to forget is that skills need to be used to stay sharp and to learn new things in that field. If you are not doing Assembler a fair amount of time, the skill dulls. Some of the worse assembler I have ever seen was written by people who had not written it in a few years, and often I had to deal with systems heavily modded because somebody "loved" coding in assembler. And sadly the code was not really much better. The same goes for dump reading, performance issues like WLM, or really anything. This is a case where specialization is preferred, but my guess is most of us are generalists, and simply do not have the time or resources to become experts in every part of MVS there is (excuse me z/OS and the are ALOT of parts.) Doug Fuerst -- Original Message -- From "Brian Westerman" To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date 9/5/2023 6:32:27 AM Subject Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive Equating college and systems programming is not really logical. I'm not aware of any colleges that "teach" how to be a systems programmer. I think some may have tried, but I doubt it would be a big draw. I have a PhD, but I didn't learn to write assembler in college, at least not any that would be usable as a systems programmer. I don't think everyone needs to learn how to read dumps or write assembler to be a systems administrator, but to be a systems programmer is seems very practical. I can't imagine working with an operating system for a large number of years without being able to read or write the code it's generated with. But that's just my opinion, I'm sure there are people who consider themselves to be systems programmers that don't have any knowledge of assembler or know how to read a dump, or know how to use SMP/e very well or understand ACS coding or writing REXX or understanding the ins and outs of WLM. My personal opinion is that it would give me an ulcer to not know what I was doing. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I also think that what many of us seem to forget is that skills need to be used to stay sharp and to learn new things in that field. If you are not doing Assembler a fair amount of time, the skill dulls. Some of the worse assembler I have ever seen was written by people who had not written it in a few years, and often I had to deal with systems heavily modded because somebody "loved" coding in assembler. And sadly the code was not really much better. The same goes for dump reading, performance issues like WLM, or really anything. This is a case where specialization is preferred, but my guess is most of us are generalists, and simply do not have the time or resources to become experts in every part of MVS there is (excuse me z/OS and the are ALOT of parts.) Doug Fuerst -- Original Message -- From "Brian Westerman" To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date 9/5/2023 6:32:27 AM Subject Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive Equating college and systems programming is not really logical. I'm not aware of any colleges that "teach" how to be a systems programmer. I think some may have tried, but I doubt it would be a big draw. I have a PhD, but I didn't learn to write assembler in college, at least not any that would be usable as a systems programmer. I don't think everyone needs to learn how to read dumps or write assembler to be a systems administrator, but to be a systems programmer is seems very practical. I can't imagine working with an operating system for a large number of years without being able to read or write the code it's generated with. But that's just my opinion, I'm sure there are people who consider themselves to be systems programmers that don't have any knowledge of assembler or know how to read a dump, or know how to use SMP/e very well or understand ACS coding or writing REXX or understanding the ins and outs of WLM. My personal opinion is that it would give me an ulcer to not know what I was doing. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Yes, we send a bug report way back in the 1960's at Shell Oil in Melbourne. We used COND codes a lot, and it mucked everything up! Clem Colin Paice wrote: I heard that IEFBR14 had the highest "bug rate" per line of code 1) There was no CSECT statement 2) It was not reentrant 3) It did not clear R15 prior to exit 4) It was missing an end statement I was told this over 40 years ago... and may not be true On Tue, 5 Sept 2023 at 13:53, Bob Bridges wrote: Hey, look at that! I never knew why the famous IEFBR14 was so named; now I guess maybe I do, though I won't be guessing after I look up the BR instruction). --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The historic case against miracles...consists of calling miracles impossible, then saying that no one but a fool believes impossibilities: then declaring that there is no wise evidence on behalf of the miraculous. The whole trick is done by means of leaning alternately on the philosophical and historical objection. If we say miracles are theoretically possible, they say, “Yes, but there is no evidence for them.” When we take all the records of the human race and say, “Here is your evidence,” they say, “But these people were superstitious, they believed in impossible things.” -from "Miracles and Modern Civilisation" by G K Chesterton */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of John Dravnieks Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 04:24 If you are truly interested in learning System z assembler, then one resource you could use is the late John Ehrman's book 'Assembler Programming for IBM System z Servers' - a quick google search should find it for you. The reason I am posting this is to mention some macros detailed in Appendix B - using these macros will hide away a lot of the complexity of z/OS I/O so you can concentrate on all the other details while you learn. Here is a simple 'Hello world' program using the Printlin macro from this set: * * Hello world * Hellocsect using hello,15 * PrintLin Heading,l'heading print page hdr br14 heading dcCl28'1 Hello World!' end hello By default, Printlin will write the output to the SYSPRINT DD -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I heard that IEFBR14 had the highest "bug rate" per line of code 1) There was no CSECT statement 2) It was not reentrant 3) It did not clear R15 prior to exit 4) It was missing an end statement I was told this over 40 years ago... and may not be true On Tue, 5 Sept 2023 at 13:53, Bob Bridges wrote: > Hey, look at that! I never knew why the famous IEFBR14 was so named; now > I guess maybe I do, though I won't be guessing after I look up the BR > instruction). > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* The historic case against miracles...consists of calling miracles > impossible, then saying that no one but a fool believes impossibilities: > then declaring that there is no wise evidence on behalf of the miraculous. > The whole trick is done by means of leaning alternately on the > philosophical and historical objection. If we say miracles are > theoretically possible, they say, “Yes, but there is no evidence for them.” > When we take all the records of the human race and say, “Here is your > evidence,” they say, “But these people were superstitious, they believed in > impossible things.” -from "Miracles and Modern Civilisation" by G K > Chesterton */ > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of John Dravnieks > Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 04:24 > > If you are truly interested in learning System z assembler, then one > resource you could use is the late John Ehrman's book 'Assembler > Programming for IBM System z Servers' - a quick google search should find > it for you. > > The reason I am posting this is to mention some macros detailed in > Appendix B - using these macros will hide away a lot of the complexity of > z/OS I/O so you can concentrate on all the other details while you learn. > > Here is a simple 'Hello world' program using the Printlin macro from this > set: > > * > * Hello world > * > Hellocsect > using hello,15 > * > PrintLin Heading,l'heading print page hdr > br14 > heading dcCl28'1 Hello World!' > end hello > > By default, Printlin will write the output to the SYSPRINT DD > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Please do not use this subject heading, Please change it to what you are talking about. On 2023-09-05 22:53, Bob Bridges wrote: Hey, look at that! I never knew why the famous IEFBR14 was so named; now I guess maybe I do, though I won't be guessing after I look up the BR instruction). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Hey, look at that! I never knew why the famous IEFBR14 was so named; now I guess maybe I do, though I won't be guessing after I look up the BR instruction). --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The historic case against miracles...consists of calling miracles impossible, then saying that no one but a fool believes impossibilities: then declaring that there is no wise evidence on behalf of the miraculous. The whole trick is done by means of leaning alternately on the philosophical and historical objection. If we say miracles are theoretically possible, they say, “Yes, but there is no evidence for them.” When we take all the records of the human race and say, “Here is your evidence,” they say, “But these people were superstitious, they believed in impossible things.” -from "Miracles and Modern Civilisation" by G K Chesterton */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of John Dravnieks Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 04:24 If you are truly interested in learning System z assembler, then one resource you could use is the late John Ehrman's book 'Assembler Programming for IBM System z Servers' - a quick google search should find it for you. The reason I am posting this is to mention some macros detailed in Appendix B - using these macros will hide away a lot of the complexity of z/OS I/O so you can concentrate on all the other details while you learn. Here is a simple 'Hello world' program using the Printlin macro from this set: * * Hello world * Hellocsect using hello,15 * PrintLin Heading,l'heading print page hdr br14 heading dcCl28'1 Hello World!' end hello By default, Printlin will write the output to the SYSPRINT DD -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Personal attacks are really not warranted. I think we can discuss our systems programming beliefs without attacking someone. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Equating college and systems programming is not really logical. I'm not aware of any colleges that "teach" how to be a systems programmer. I think some may have tried, but I doubt it would be a big draw. I have a PhD, but I didn't learn to write assembler in college, at least not any that would be usable as a systems programmer. I don't think everyone needs to learn how to read dumps or write assembler to be a systems administrator, but to be a systems programmer is seems very practical. I can't imagine working with an operating system for a large number of years without being able to read or write the code it's generated with. But that's just my opinion, I'm sure there are people who consider themselves to be systems programmers that don't have any knowledge of assembler or know how to read a dump, or know how to use SMP/e very well or understand ACS coding or writing REXX or understanding the ins and outs of WLM. My personal opinion is that it would give me an ulcer to not know what I was doing. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
If you are truly interested in learning System z assembler, then one resource you could use is the late John Ehrman's book 'Assembler Programming for IBM System z Servers' - a quick google search should find it for you. The reason I am posting this is to mention some macros detailed in Appendix B - using these macros will hide away a lot of the complexity of z/OS I/O so you can concentrate on all the other details while you learn. Here is a simple 'Hello world' program using the Printlin macro from this set: * * Hello world * Hellocsect using hello,15 * PrintLin Heading,l'heading print page hdr br14 heading dcCl28'1 Hello World!' end hello By default, Printlin will write the output to the SYSPRINT DD Kind regards John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I’ve been to at least 10 Shares over the years. Also CA Worlds, OPM conferences, & IBM systems tech universitys. Lots of idiotic presentations at Share. Lots of good ones as well. Like Quackenbush’s SMPE, wait SMP/E, Roger Miller DB2 sessions, and some others. Remember the Rod Stewart freebie about 10 years ago in Vegas? What crappy software was Gabe trying to sell there? Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:49 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: He is better known for his contributions to SHARE.. What have you contributed? From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive lol better known! That’s the goal of these cult members. Not talented, not educated, but better known. That’s why you join LinkedIn too. To be known and to network. You were unemployed for a long period of time. Because you had a signature line asking for a job. Begging really. Something I’ve never had to do. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:40 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Nonsense. I have an MA in Mathematics, and I would never accept a degree as a proof of competency. Gabe has long since earned his chops, and is certainly better known in the industry than you are. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others who couldn’t hack college. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Yeah, sigh. It's sometimes hard to let pass nonsense such as what he spouted about assembler language. But of course when his assertions are demolished, he resorts to distractions such as whether degrees matter and who's had the most short-term employments. Anyone here with as misguided an opinion about what constitutes system programming isn't going to be convinced by reality. So, done. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:43:05 +, August Carideo wrote: >Why don�t you guys just email each other directly. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
He is better known for his contributions to SHARE.. What have you contributed? From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive lol better known! That’s the goal of these cult members. Not talented, not educated, but better known. That’s why you join LinkedIn too. To be known and to network. You were unemployed for a long period of time. Because you had a signature line asking for a job. Begging really. Something I’ve never had to do. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:40 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Nonsense. I have an MA in Mathematics, and I would never accept a degree as a proof of competency. Gabe has long since earned his chops, and is certainly better known in the industry than you are. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others who couldn’t hack college. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
lol better known! That’s the goal of these cult members. Not talented, not educated, but better known. That’s why you join LinkedIn too. To be known and to network. You were unemployed for a long period of time. Because you had a signature line asking for a job. Begging really. Something I’ve never had to do. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:40 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Nonsense. I have an MA in Mathematics, and I would never accept a degree as a proof of competency. Gabe has long since earned his chops, and is certainly better known in the industry than you are. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others who couldn’t hack college. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Why don’t you guys just email each other directly. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:40:44 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive I’m not a narcissist. I don’t need to post my resume there. (Many are embellished) Plus, LinkedIn has had numerous hacks. My resume that I wrote decades ago and just added to with each employer, got me offers galore, was 100% factual, and my interview skills got me hired. I was never unemployed. And never had a bad review. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:35 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: Too funny. Basic research (LinkedIn, etc.) would have revealed my degree. Research ability is another important system programming skill you haven't exhibited. You've listed dozens of places you've worked (with apparently consistently short tenures) and various products you've touched but haven't said a word about anything you've accomplished. Claimed employers and skills and credentials are worthless without something to show for them. Listing my projects done using assembler language is simply stating facts. Your listing your degree and places you've worked is indeed irrelevant puffery. Now let's return to your nonsensical assertions about assembler language. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:18:13 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some >rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar >Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical >Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. >Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as >well as others who couldn’t hack college. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com >wrote: > >That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know >that. > >Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, >vs. having actual qualifications and experience. > >"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound >ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective >business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just >installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for >decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs >(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. > >Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot >like sour grapes: > >refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something >because they cannot have it themselves. > >Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the >list? > >Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control >statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, >>you’re likely an installer of zOS. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I’m not a narcissist. I don’t need to post my resume there. (Many are embellished) Plus, LinkedIn has had numerous hacks. My resume that I wrote decades ago and just added to with each employer, got me offers galore, was 100% factual, and my interview skills got me hired. I was never unemployed. And never had a bad review. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:35 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: Too funny. Basic research (LinkedIn, etc.) would have revealed my degree. Research ability is another important system programming skill you haven't exhibited. You've listed dozens of places you've worked (with apparently consistently short tenures) and various products you've touched but haven't said a word about anything you've accomplished. Claimed employers and skills and credentials are worthless without something to show for them. Listing my projects done using assembler language is simply stating facts. Your listing your degree and places you've worked is indeed irrelevant puffery. Now let's return to your nonsensical assertions about assembler language. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:18:13 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some >rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar >Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical >Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. >Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as >well as others who couldn’t hack college. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com >wrote: > >That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know >that. > >Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, >vs. having actual qualifications and experience. > >"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound >ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective >business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just >installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for >decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs >(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. > >Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot >like sour grapes: > >refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something >because they cannot have it themselves. > >Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the >list? > >Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control >statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, >>you’re likely an installer of zOS. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Nonsense. I have an MA in Mathematics, and I would never accept a degree as a proof of competency. Gabe has long since earned his chops, and is certainly better known in the industry than you are. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others who couldn’t hack college. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I love how many of you downplay others who don’t do what you do. And act like it’s inferior. Plus, puff yourselves up simply for programming in Assembler. I made a boatload of money in 40+ years performing nearly every task on the mainframe. I can also code in Assembler, just never needed to. Assembler is still dying, as the Assembler listserv attests. Plus, the fact it’s nearly impossible to find a company that offers training classes in it. Retirement is great. I no longer have to deal with pompous a**holes like you. Self promoting narcissistic cult members. Trained, not educated. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:26 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: Not that it matters -- or that I rely on it for credentials/credibility -- but I do, B.S. in Applied Mathematics. Wrong again, you are. About so much. My point is that many excellent programmers (system and application) don't have degrees - and are no less excellent for that omission. And besides you I can't think of another working programmer who trumpeted their supposed credentials vs. real-world on-the-job accomplishments. What in the world does having a degree have to do with whether assembler language is a valuable/useful skill? Even for low-level grunt work such as yours, installing z/OS, how does your degree in Math/CS help? You've wandered far afield from the actual topic -- your misunderstanding that the essence of system programming isn't installing things. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:12:41 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >No doubt you don’t have one. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com >wrote: > >That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know >that. > >Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, >vs. having actual qualifications and experience. > >"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound >ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective >business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just >installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for >decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs >(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. > >Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot >like sour grapes: > >refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something >because they cannot have it themselves. > >Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the >list? > >Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control >statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, >>you’re likely an installer of zOS. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Too funny. Basic research (LinkedIn, etc.) would have revealed my degree. Research ability is another important system programming skill you haven't exhibited. You've listed dozens of places you've worked (with apparently consistently short tenures) and various products you've touched but haven't said a word about anything you've accomplished. Claimed employers and skills and credentials are worthless without something to show for them. Listing my projects done using assembler language is simply stating facts. Your listing your degree and places you've worked is indeed irrelevant puffery. Now let's return to your nonsensical assertions about assembler language. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:18:13 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some >rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar >Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical >Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. >Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as >well as others who couldn’t hack college. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com >wrote: > >That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know >that. > >Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, >vs. having actual qualifications and experience. > >"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound >ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective >business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just >installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for >decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs >(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. > >Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot >like sour grapes: > >refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something >because they cannot have it themselves. > >Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the >list? > >Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control >statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, >>you’re likely an installer of zOS. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Phoenix online? Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:26 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: Not that it matters -- or that I rely on it for credentials/credibility -- but I do, B.S. in Applied Mathematics. Wrong again, you are. About so much. My point is that many excellent programmers (system and application) don't have degrees - and are no less excellent for that omission. And besides you I can't think of another working programmer who trumpeted their supposed credentials vs. real-world on-the-job accomplishments. What in the world does having a degree have to do with whether assembler language is a valuable/useful skill? Even for low-level grunt work such as yours, installing z/OS, how does your degree in Math/CS help? You've wandered far afield from the actual topic -- your misunderstanding that the essence of system programming isn't installing things. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:12:41 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >No doubt you don’t have one. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com >wrote: > >That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know >that. > >Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, >vs. having actual qualifications and experience. > >"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound >ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective >business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just >installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for >decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs >(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. > >Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot >like sour grapes: > >refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something >because they cannot have it themselves. > >Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the >list? > >Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control >statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, >>you’re likely an installer of zOS. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Not that it matters -- or that I rely on it for credentials/credibility -- but I do, B.S. in Applied Mathematics. Wrong again, you are. About so much. My point is that many excellent programmers (system and application) don't have degrees - and are no less excellent for that omission. And besides you I can't think of another working programmer who trumpeted their supposed credentials vs. real-world on-the-job accomplishments. What in the world does having a degree have to do with whether assembler language is a valuable/useful skill? Even for low-level grunt work such as yours, installing z/OS, how does your degree in Math/CS help? You've wandered far afield from the actual topic -- your misunderstanding that the essence of system programming isn't installing things. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:12:41 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >No doubt you don’t have one. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com >wrote: > >That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know >that. > >Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, >vs. having actual qualifications and experience. > >"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound >ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective >business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just >installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for >decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs >(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. > >Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot >like sour grapes: > >refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something >because they cannot have it themselves. > >Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the >list? > >Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control >statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, >>you’re likely an installer of zOS. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others who couldn’t hack college. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
No doubt you don’t have one. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know that. Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. having actual qualifications and experience. "Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing. Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like sour grapes: refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something because they cannot have it themselves. Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the list? Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control statements. And set some nice variables to feel better. On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re >likely an installer of zOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
My loss of innocence was when, as a HS student, I had to explain a multiple linear regression program to a woman with an MA in Statistics. The degree changes the odds that you understand your major, but it is neither necessary nor sufficient. It's something to take into account, but there are plenty of excellent programmers without degrees. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bernd Oppolzer Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 2:24 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive FWIW: I have a computer science degree from the university of Stuttgart, Germany (from 1977 to 1985). We learned Pascal first, then different Assembler languages. During my studies, I got interested in compiler construction, and I am the maintainer of the New Stanford Pascal compiler today, look here: http://secure-web.cisco.com/1BkSHCYQxC88CAxeo_0zBvpsyBHaAW9hqf3FnhSG6Apwq6deuk_AjtZ_6COxg8XyVDTuIswWIRERJONH9qKgiqWW-tL2KjMu0xVC5bMC1PlV5Ne5eXXbqQJq-I1vQHeoRTmmfbxRslMCXZuAssMl9AiK28kUly9d8r85b4lJKwjBV8HtUlmG2K5pWla-8RaEuGxz5c_Kc8_Udjr-T15PXaHpFrQWJiWgxJThHhkqDs83L7rHgrZyrJLopliweEsR5dytex1fAA2qXecjXFRy8xRL3ZmMk_UD7cik0WiGmW7UTEWawM0n78aRWXjkps5-bF0cwKm26F6kBP3Zo7w4RLuwzg6KnntJ6uVF7P00dF0qaUoXLiFQNcmFs43geOoAl6jeppmhJADGThQNSSYYEwT9hdYM6RUZ_5E28qENT0jc/http%3A%2F%2Fbernd-oppolzer.de%2Fjob9.htm Later I learned Fortran, RPG, COBOL, PL/1, REXX of course ... During my career I met many very sharp people who didn't have a degree (only some sort of on-site education, starting as an insurance specialist, for example, then changing to the IT department), but they had the same (system) programming skills that I had. The degree is not what made me a systems programmer. But I would not accept someone as a systems programmer who cannot program in ASSEMBLER (on IBM mainframes) or in C (at Unix and Windows platforms). All others IMO are some sort of admins. Regarding "machine code": I also did classes for dump analysis, and one of my students said, Bernd is reading dumps of machine code like others read the newspaper :-) I don't want to do that; my Pascal compiler writes language specific dumps, where the variables and there contents are shown in Pascal syntax, but if there are no such tools, and nothing helps and the error must be solved, I read the hex dumps, of course. No matter if the system is MVS or VSE. Kind regards Bernd Am 04.09.2023 um 04:56 schrieb Bill Johnson: > Nothing more arrogant than saying someone isn’t a systems programmer unless > they have my abilities. And your education is meaningless, just ask Gabe > Goldberg or “machine language” Bernd. > > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
To claim people who don’t code assembler or read dumps aren’t systems programmers is idiotic. Sure, there are some people who don’t need college to be good systems programmers, but I’ll bet you don’t get heart surgery from a guy/gal who isn’t trained by a college and you don’t hire a lawyer who doesn’t have the degree and passed the bar. The vast majority of people who made significant societal contributions and advances, were trained by college educated professionals. I doubt the advances in technology, medicine, science, or other knowledge based industries would have occurred without higher education. I learned zero JCL in college. I learned and became an expert at EDS. But, college gave me the wherewithal to know how to study and succeed. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, September 4, 2023, 2:25 AM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote: FWIW: I have a computer science degree from the university of Stuttgart, Germany (from 1977 to 1985). We learned Pascal first, then different Assembler languages. During my studies, I got interested in compiler construction, and I am the maintainer of the New Stanford Pascal compiler today, look here: http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm Later I learned Fortran, RPG, COBOL, PL/1, REXX of course ... During my career I met many very sharp people who didn't have a degree (only some sort of on-site education, starting as an insurance specialist, for example, then changing to the IT department), but they had the same (system) programming skills that I had. The degree is not what made me a systems programmer. But I would not accept someone as a systems programmer who cannot program in ASSEMBLER (on IBM mainframes) or in C (at Unix and Windows platforms). All others IMO are some sort of admins. Regarding "machine code": I also did classes for dump analysis, and one of my students said, Bernd is reading dumps of machine code like others read the newspaper :-) I don't want to do that; my Pascal compiler writes language specific dumps, where the variables and there contents are shown in Pascal syntax, but if there are no such tools, and nothing helps and the error must be solved, I read the hex dumps, of course. No matter if the system is MVS or VSE. Kind regards Bernd Am 04.09.2023 um 04:56 schrieb Bill Johnson: > Nothing more arrogant than saying someone isn’t a systems programmer unless > they have my abilities. And your education is meaningless, just ask Gabe > Goldberg or “machine language” Bernd. > > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Well said. On 9/4/2023 2:24 AM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote: FWIW: I have a computer science degree from the university of Stuttgart, Germany (from 1977 to 1985). We learned Pascal first, then different Assembler languages. During my studies, I got interested in compiler construction, and I am the maintainer of the New Stanford Pascal compiler today, look here: http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm Later I learned Fortran, RPG, COBOL, PL/1, REXX of course ... During my career I met many very sharp people who didn't have a degree (only some sort of on-site education, starting as an insurance specialist, for example, then changing to the IT department), but they had the same (system) programming skills that I had. The degree is not what made me a systems programmer. But I would not accept someone as a systems programmer who cannot program in ASSEMBLER (on IBM mainframes) or in C (at Unix and Windows platforms). All others IMO are some sort of admins. Regarding "machine code": I also did classes for dump analysis, and one of my students said, Bernd is reading dumps of machine code like others read the newspaper :-) I don't want to do that; my Pascal compiler writes language specific dumps, where the variables and there contents are shown in Pascal syntax, but if there are no such tools, and nothing helps and the error must be solved, I read the hex dumps, of course. No matter if the system is MVS or VSE. Kind regards Bernd Am 04.09.2023 um 04:56 schrieb Bill Johnson: Nothing more arrogant than saying someone isn’t a systems programmer unless they have my abilities. And your education is meaningless, just ask Gabe Goldberg or “machine language” Bernd. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
ITYM quotation, and IMHO that quote should be part of the curriculum for any school of CS, cited whenever discussing handles, indirect addressing or pointers. It wouldn't hurt for the IBM tech writers to keep it in mind when documenting parameters. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Peter Sylvester Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 10:23 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive Namen sind Schall und Rauch, Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass. It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other gems in that directory). "song" = "what is your profession." Peter Sylvester -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Namen sind Schall und Rauch, Some parts of the discussion reminds me to Lewis Carroll, Through the looking glass. It reminds me to the citation that that I made in ibmmail descript https://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/netinfo/EARN/ (There are some other gems in that directory). "song" = "what is your profession." Peter Sylvester -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
FWIW: I have a computer science degree from the university of Stuttgart, Germany (from 1977 to 1985). We learned Pascal first, then different Assembler languages. During my studies, I got interested in compiler construction, and I am the maintainer of the New Stanford Pascal compiler today, look here: http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm Later I learned Fortran, RPG, COBOL, PL/1, REXX of course ... During my career I met many very sharp people who didn't have a degree (only some sort of on-site education, starting as an insurance specialist, for example, then changing to the IT department), but they had the same (system) programming skills that I had. The degree is not what made me a systems programmer. But I would not accept someone as a systems programmer who cannot program in ASSEMBLER (on IBM mainframes) or in C (at Unix and Windows platforms). All others IMO are some sort of admins. Regarding "machine code": I also did classes for dump analysis, and one of my students said, Bernd is reading dumps of machine code like others read the newspaper :-) I don't want to do that; my Pascal compiler writes language specific dumps, where the variables and there contents are shown in Pascal syntax, but if there are no such tools, and nothing helps and the error must be solved, I read the hex dumps, of course. No matter if the system is MVS or VSE. Kind regards Bernd Am 04.09.2023 um 04:56 schrieb Bill Johnson: Nothing more arrogant than saying someone isn’t a systems programmer unless they have my abilities. And your education is meaningless, just ask Gabe Goldberg or “machine language” Bernd. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I write more lines of assembler per month now than I used to write in a year 10 to 15 years ago. I can't even think of an exit that I have not written code for at least a dozen times. I've written more interfaces for Java and C++ to "get" things from z/OS in the past 5 years than I really care to think about. I have also seen literally many dozens (bordering on hundreds) of "systems programmers" that cringe in fear of even thinking of having to deal with anything written in assembler. Several of which, (but not many) I have sat down and taught how to at least understand how to read in interpret assembler code. With many others, I tried and failed to get them to accept that assembler is really just part of the job. Not even a big part, but it helps. Can you go your whole career as a systems programmer without writing any assembler code, sure you can. You can also go the whole time never installing z/OS. Many systems programmers, and I mean a lot of them, have zero concept of how to read a dump. Many of them "might" be able to use IPCS and follow a script to "find things" in a dump, but otherwise are completely lost. Setting up WLM properly and maintaining it? Many|most of them can't do that, and they figure they will just use Watson & Walker's set, or some other one they download from the internet. Capacity planning? "Why bother, just get a bigger box." is the attitude I see the most. Use RMF, "hell yeah, it makes some incredible graphs", (which they can't comprehend), but they are sure pretty. Even writing (and testing) ACS routines (which are extremely simple), is beyond many of them. Most couldn't code a REXX exec from scratch to save their lives. But these are the systems administrators we have now. (notice I said systems administrators, not systems programmers, because I think there is a (big) difference). I am very sorry to see the state of the current "systems programmers", but thinking back 15 to 20 years or so, it really wasn't any different. The same exact complaints from both sides about assembler and "real" systems programmer were exactly the same then as now. There have always been "systems administrators" who have the title "systems programmers" even though they have never "coded" a system program or routine in their career. All of this doesn't make them bad people, or even bad Systems Administrators, they just aren't as technical as some other systems programmers, and not everyone needs to be that technical. Everyone doesn't need to know assembler, but with an operation system that is made up of well over 300 million (OS/390 number) lines of PL/S generated assembler code, it sure helps. The world needs all kinds of systems people. Not all of us need to know assembler, but thankfully a lot of us do. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Assembler is only relevant to the Machine. Joe On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 12:23 AM Matt Hogstrom wrote: > Assembler is only relevant to the Runtime > > Matt Hogstrom > PGP key 0F143BC1 > > > On Sep 3, 2023, at 13:26, Paul Gilmartin < > 042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > > How important are Assembler skills for a Linux for zSeries applications > programmer? > > A systems programmer? Why? Hardware interfaces? Other z control area > > definitions? > > > > Which assembler? HLASM? GNU Assembler? Other? > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Assembler is only relevant to the Runtime Matt Hogstrom PGP key 0F143BC1 > On Sep 3, 2023, at 13:26, Paul Gilmartin > <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > How important are Assembler skills for a Linux for zSeries applications > programmer? > A systems programmer? Why? Hardware interfaces? Other z control area > definitions? > > Which assembler? HLASM? GNU Assembler? Other? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
No. writing "Anyone who thinks learning it now is a worthwhile exercise is a fool." is more arrogant. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2023 10:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive Nothing more arrogant than saying someone isn’t a systems programmer unless they have my abilities. And your education is meaningless, just ask Gabe Goldberg or “machine language” Bernd. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 8:59 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, Besides showing arrogance, you're displaying your ignorance as well. You said: "...Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer ..." For your information, I have a combined CompSci degree with business and mathematics from University of Toronto, the best school in Canada. I've worked at IBM and other employers and have done Systems Programming at all of these shops. My jobs all included programming Assembler for VM, VS/1 and MVS (OS/390, z/OS etc.). Again, if you can't/won't program Assembler, you're simply not a SysProg. How sad. Regards,. David On 2023-09-03 20:06, Bill Johnson wrote: > Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, > you’re likely an installer of zOS. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 7:14 PM, g...@gabegold.com > wrote: > > None of "DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of > operations, programmer, and Operations" are system programming -- so aren't > relevant to this discussion. > > Many people calling themselves system programmers are in fact > installers/configurers/administrators. Those are all useful, but also aren't > what most people consider system programming. > > Without assembler skills, how do you program -- or even fully understand -- > systems written in assembler? > > What I described doing is what most people consider system programming -- > maintaining/developing/enhancing system-level software -- and involved skills > shared by all the others on my teams at Mitre and VMSG. Someone without > assembler fluency would have been useless in both places. > > Degrees aren't relevant -- that's... > > The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone > dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn't have proper > credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. > > ...some of the best system programmers I've known had no degree. So good for > you, degree in math and CS -- but so what? > > In this discussion, you're downplaying yourself with uninformed comments. > > As a system programmer without assembler skills, what did you DO? Not where > did you work, what did you do that was system programming? > > And resorting to name calling, the last resort of bad arguments? > > On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:38:25 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >> Sure David, I’ve never been a Systems Programmer other than the last 19 >> years. Before that, I was a DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer >> analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations for one of the >> largest auto companies on the planet. I’ve worked in numerous industries, >> large and small companies, and have a Math & Computer Science degree. Not >> the idiotic 2 year tech degree that many colleges created to fast track kids >> into a burgeoning IT industry. But keep trying to downplay me idiot. >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >> >> >> On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 5:24 PM, David Spiegel >> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: >> >> HI Bill, >> More vacuous and specious arguments. >> >> You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be >> dangerous. ..." >> Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. >> >> It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems >> Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. >> Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should >> know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. >> It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. >> >> It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". >> Grow up and learn some Assembler. >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> On 2023-09-03 12:37, Bill Johnson wrote: >>> 1 persons experience doesn’t pro
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I learned that in 1981 during Assembler class. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 8:31 PM, Doug Fuerst wrote: Assembler is not machine language. Doug Fuerst -- Original Message -- >From "Bernd Oppolzer" To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date 9/3/2023 17:16:05 PM Subject Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive >+1 > >and I believe, I said virtually the same before, that makes 2 persons > > >Am 03.09.2023 um 22:41 schrieb g...@gabegold.com: >>That "one person's experience" was widely shared among the VM community -- >>hundreds of people collectively helping their installations benefit from what >>assembler language enables. >> >>You might consider taking your own advice: 1 persons experience doesn’t prove >>anything. >> >>"The fact is..." is an assertion, not a fact. It's contradicted by a great >>many people who've used assembler to advance careers and benefit their >>employers. >> >>Given the number of critical bugs fixed by customers, and the number of >>customer system enhancements merged into IBM product code, sometimes NOT >>"making changes to delivered software" can be dangerous. >> >>Assembler -- machine language -- is what actually executes, no matter what >>high-level language or utility uses/produces it. So understanding it helps >>understand much broader concepts. >> >>Your not encountering it among your colleagues might speak more about you and >>your colleagues than assembler language itself. >> >>Why advocate ignorance of a fundamental part of the platform for which you're >>such a relentless cheerleader? >> >>This is a silly argument -- you dismiss and deprecate something you never >>learned; that's an uninformed position to take, no matter how many colleagues >>you've met in your many, many jobs. >> >>Surely it's a specialized skill -- which you never acquired -- but that >>doesn't make it unimportant. >> >>On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 16:37:39 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >> >>>1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything ... > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Nothing more arrogant than saying someone isn’t a systems programmer unless they have my abilities. And your education is meaningless, just ask Gabe Goldberg or “machine language” Bernd. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 8:59 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Bill, Besides showing arrogance, you're displaying your ignorance as well. You said: "...Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer ..." For your information, I have a combined CompSci degree with business and mathematics from University of Toronto, the best school in Canada. I've worked at IBM and other employers and have done Systems Programming at all of these shops. My jobs all included programming Assembler for VM, VS/1 and MVS (OS/390, z/OS etc.). Again, if you can't/won't program Assembler, you're simply not a SysProg. How sad. Regards,. David On 2023-09-03 20:06, Bill Johnson wrote: > Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, > you’re likely an installer of zOS. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 7:14 PM, g...@gabegold.com > wrote: > > None of "DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of > operations, programmer, and Operations" are system programming -- so aren't > relevant to this discussion. > > Many people calling themselves system programmers are in fact > installers/configurers/administrators. Those are all useful, but also aren't > what most people consider system programming. > > Without assembler skills, how do you program -- or even fully understand -- > systems written in assembler? > > What I described doing is what most people consider system programming -- > maintaining/developing/enhancing system-level software -- and involved skills > shared by all the others on my teams at Mitre and VMSG. Someone without > assembler fluency would have been useless in both places. > > Degrees aren't relevant -- that's... > > The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone > dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn't have proper > credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. > > ...some of the best system programmers I've known had no degree. So good for > you, degree in math and CS -- but so what? > > In this discussion, you're downplaying yourself with uninformed comments. > > As a system programmer without assembler skills, what did you DO? Not where > did you work, what did you do that was system programming? > > And resorting to name calling, the last resort of bad arguments? > > On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:38:25 +, Bill Johnson wrote: > >> Sure David, I’ve never been a Systems Programmer other than the last 19 >> years. Before that, I was a DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer >> analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations for one of the >> largest auto companies on the planet. I’ve worked in numerous industries, >> large and small companies, and have a Math & Computer Science degree. Not >> the idiotic 2 year tech degree that many colleges created to fast track kids >> into a burgeoning IT industry. But keep trying to downplay me idiot. >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >> >> >> On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 5:24 PM, David Spiegel >> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: >> >> HI Bill, >> More vacuous and specious arguments. >> >> You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be >> dangerous. ..." >> Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. >> >> It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems >> Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. >> Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should >> know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. >> It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. >> >> It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". >> Grow up and learn some Assembler. >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> On 2023-09-03 12:37, Bill Johnson wrote: >>> 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything. The fact is assembler is >>> becoming less and less important as a skillset. Anyone who thinks learning >>> it now is a worthwhile exercise is a fool. Yeah, I went through college >>> when Assembler was a mandatory course and COBOL was an elective. Guess >>> which was infinitely more critical in my career! In college we coded almost >>> exclusively in PL/I, which I’ll bet was in deference to IBM. Never used it >>> once in the real world. Like I mentioned previously, one professor said >>> there’s no reason to learn JCL because it will be obsolete soon. That was >>> 1980. JCL was probably the most important skill of my career. I did make >>> one misstatement earlier about never using Assembler. One time around 2010, >>> we needed to change IEFUSI. Three of us were able
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Again, I didn’t say assembler programming is dead, but it’s been dying for decades. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 10:51 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote: It proves nothing, so your your conclusion is wrong. You just don't know where the assembler programmers are working. We're working for the software vendors that most companies pay lots of money to because they don't want to hire their own assembler programmers. Fine with me, except that through consolidation, there are only a handful of larger ISVs now, employing thousands of assembler programmers. And since we're the old guys, we don't need no Assembler List. We have our own internal experts to consult with if necessary. I use my personal email for these lists because I don't want my comments to be identified with my employer. Most Fortune 500 companies have one or another or a number of our software products. Based on the support cases that I see, I get the idea that the product I work on is at every national bank in the world. My job title is "Senior Software Engineer", probably because the term "Systems Programmer" has been mis-used for a number of decades. Most MVS/et al "Systems Programmers" are SMP/E jockeys and/or systems administrators. Back when I was an SMP/E jockey, I still wrote Assembler because there are so many system interfaces that can't be called from any HLL, at least not without jumping through ridiculous hoops. I broke a rib laughing when I saw one product purportedly written in Metal/C, where most of the program was inline assembler. But it made some manager happy to say that his new product was written in C. The first IBM mainframe language that I learned was 360 assembler. The second was PL/I. Because of that order of experience, I strongly claim that all programmers should learn assembler first, even if for the rest of their careers they'll only be writing in the HLL de jure, because it's important to understand that certain HLL constructs generate crappy machine code. I once had to fix a PL/I program that was the slowest in its category in the department. I looked at the generated code and groaned. I changed a couple of lines in the program. Each of those 2 changes cut the CPU utilization of the program in half, making it use 1/4 of the CPU time as before my changes. I would not have been able to do that without understanding the generated assembler. /Leonard Bill Johnson wrote on 9/1/2023 7:43 AM: > Which proves my point from a prior thread that coding and using assembler is > almost nonexistent. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Friday, September 1, 2023, 10:39 AM, Steve Thompson > wrote: > > Yes I have. It doesn't have a lot of traffic. > > Steve Thompson > > On 9/1/2023 10:28 AM, Robert Raicer wrote: >> Hi folks; >> >> It's been several months since I've received anything from >> the IBM Assembler List Server. The last I knew, the list server >> e-mail address was: assembler-l...@listserv.uga.edu >> >> Is this still correct? >> Are any of you still getting e-mails from that list server? >> >> Thanks for the help! >> >> Bob Raicer >> >> -- >> >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO >> IBM-MAIN > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
It proves nothing, so your your conclusion is wrong. You just don't know where the assembler programmers are working. We're working for the software vendors that most companies pay lots of money to because they don't want to hire their own assembler programmers. Fine with me, except that through consolidation, there are only a handful of larger ISVs now, employing thousands of assembler programmers. And since we're the old guys, we don't need no Assembler List. We have our own internal experts to consult with if necessary. I use my personal email for these lists because I don't want my comments to be identified with my employer. Most Fortune 500 companies have one or another or a number of our software products. Based on the support cases that I see, I get the idea that the product I work on is at every national bank in the world. My job title is "Senior Software Engineer", probably because the term "Systems Programmer" has been mis-used for a number of decades. Most MVS/et al "Systems Programmers" are SMP/E jockeys and/or systems administrators. Back when I was an SMP/E jockey, I still wrote Assembler because there are so many system interfaces that can't be called from any HLL, at least not without jumping through ridiculous hoops. I broke a rib laughing when I saw one product purportedly written in Metal/C, where most of the program was inline assembler. But it made some manager happy to say that his new product was written in C. The first IBM mainframe language that I learned was 360 assembler. The second was PL/I. Because of that order of experience, I strongly claim that all programmers should learn assembler first, even if for the rest of their careers they'll only be writing in the HLL de jure, because it's important to understand that certain HLL constructs generate crappy machine code. I once had to fix a PL/I program that was the slowest in its category in the department. I looked at the generated code and groaned. I changed a couple of lines in the program. Each of those 2 changes cut the CPU utilization of the program in half, making it use 1/4 of the CPU time as before my changes. I would not have been able to do that without understanding the generated assembler. /Leonard Bill Johnson wrote on 9/1/2023 7:43 AM: Which proves my point from a prior thread that coding and using assembler is almost nonexistent. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, September 1, 2023, 10:39 AM, Steve Thompson wrote: Yes I have. It doesn't have a lot of traffic. Steve Thompson On 9/1/2023 10:28 AM, Robert Raicer wrote: Hi folks; It's been several months since I've received anything from the IBM Assembler List Server. The last I knew, the list server e-mail address was: assembler-l...@listserv.uga.edu Is this still correct? Are any of you still getting e-mails from that list server? Thanks for the help! Bob Raicer -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
++1 [IEFUSI] On 9/3/2023 5:24 PM, David Spiegel wrote: HI Bill, More vacuous and specious arguments. You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be dangerous. ..." Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". Grow up and learn some Assembler. Regards, David -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Hi Bill, Besides showing arrogance, you're displaying your ignorance as well. You said: "...Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer ..." For your information, I have a combined CompSci degree with business and mathematics from University of Toronto, the best school in Canada. I've worked at IBM and other employers and have done Systems Programming at all of these shops. My jobs all included programming Assembler for VM, VS/1 and MVS (OS/390, z/OS etc.). Again, if you can't/won't program Assembler, you're simply not a SysProg. How sad. Regards,. David On 2023-09-03 20:06, Bill Johnson wrote: Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 7:14 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: None of "DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations" are system programming -- so aren't relevant to this discussion. Many people calling themselves system programmers are in fact installers/configurers/administrators. Those are all useful, but also aren't what most people consider system programming. Without assembler skills, how do you program -- or even fully understand -- systems written in assembler? What I described doing is what most people consider system programming -- maintaining/developing/enhancing system-level software -- and involved skills shared by all the others on my teams at Mitre and VMSG. Someone without assembler fluency would have been useless in both places. Degrees aren't relevant -- that's... The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn't have proper credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. ...some of the best system programmers I've known had no degree. So good for you, degree in math and CS -- but so what? In this discussion, you're downplaying yourself with uninformed comments. As a system programmer without assembler skills, what did you DO? Not where did you work, what did you do that was system programming? And resorting to name calling, the last resort of bad arguments? On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:38:25 +, Bill Johnson wrote: Sure David, I’ve never been a Systems Programmer other than the last 19 years. Before that, I was a DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations for one of the largest auto companies on the planet. I’ve worked in numerous industries, large and small companies, and have a Math & Computer Science degree. Not the idiotic 2 year tech degree that many colleges created to fast track kids into a burgeoning IT industry. But keep trying to downplay me idiot. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 5:24 PM, David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: HI Bill, More vacuous and specious arguments. You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be dangerous. ..." Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". Grow up and learn some Assembler. Regards, David On 2023-09-03 12:37, Bill Johnson wrote: 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything. The fact is assembler is becoming less and less important as a skillset. Anyone who thinks learning it now is a worthwhile exercise is a fool. Yeah, I went through college when Assembler was a mandatory course and COBOL was an elective. Guess which was infinitely more critical in my career! In college we coded almost exclusively in PL/I, which I’ll bet was in deference to IBM. Never used it once in the real world. Like I mentioned previously, one professor said there’s no reason to learn JCL because it will be obsolete soon. That was 1980. JCL was probably the most important skill of my career. I did make one misstatement earlier about never using Assembler. One time around 2010, we needed to change IEFUSI. Three of us were able to make the necessary adjustments. In 40+ years in IT, 20+ in tech support, other than the one time mentioned above, none of my colleagues ever needed to make changes to assembler code. In fact, making changes to delivered software can be dangerous. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 11:45 AM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: I've only had three jobs (3, 14, 6 years duration) before switching to freelance writing/editing/consulting in 1994. But I'll chime in anyway with my experience using assembler as
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Assembler is not machine language. Doug Fuerst -- Original Message -- From "Bernd Oppolzer" To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date 9/3/2023 17:16:05 PM Subject Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive +1 and I believe, I said virtually the same before, that makes 2 persons Am 03.09.2023 um 22:41 schrieb g...@gabegold.com: That "one person's experience" was widely shared among the VM community -- hundreds of people collectively helping their installations benefit from what assembler language enables. You might consider taking your own advice: 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything. "The fact is..." is an assertion, not a fact. It's contradicted by a great many people who've used assembler to advance careers and benefit their employers. Given the number of critical bugs fixed by customers, and the number of customer system enhancements merged into IBM product code, sometimes NOT "making changes to delivered software" can be dangerous. Assembler -- machine language -- is what actually executes, no matter what high-level language or utility uses/produces it. So understanding it helps understand much broader concepts. Your not encountering it among your colleagues might speak more about you and your colleagues than assembler language itself. Why advocate ignorance of a fundamental part of the platform for which you're such a relentless cheerleader? This is a silly argument -- you dismiss and deprecate something you never learned; that's an uninformed position to take, no matter how many colleagues you've met in your many, many jobs. Surely it's a specialized skill -- which you never acquired -- but that doesn't make it unimportant. On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 16:37:39 +, Bill Johnson wrote: 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
If I’m still alive in 5 years, I’m going to laugh at these kind of “it can’t be done” comments. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 7:07 PM, Jeremy Nicoll wrote: On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:59, Bill Johnson wrote: > Easy, the Vendors will have it set up for you to fill in some > variables. And if the variables they defined don't cover the /site/-specific needs (that the vendors know nothing about)? > On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 6:48 PM, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:41, Bill Johnson wrote: >> Anyone considering assembler training first off will be hard pressed to >> find any training classes, and in 5 years AI will be able to produce >> better assembler programs than anyone here can write. > > How will anyone spec for the AI precisely what an assembler routine > has to do? > > Suppose it's an exit that has to support a mix of specific vendor > software and work in a site-specific way? > > I'm not saying it's impossible; it just strikes me that whoeever codes > the spec (in some yet to be imagined formal form) will in some sense > be writing the code. THEY need to understand the ins & outs... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
I’ve heard this nonsense before. Lots of blue collar workers told me in the 70’s their job can’t be automated. My brother worked for GM in the paint shop. Said painters will always have a job. Guess what. It’s all done by robots. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 7:25 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: You'll rely on vendors anticipating with variables every possible requirement for every installation? What happens when management comes to IT with an urgent business case-justified request? Tell them so sad, too bad, our vendor doesn't allow that? You consider filling in variables to be system programming? Solving intricate business case technology problems will be automated? By systems like ChatGPT that hallucinate? And who'll judge what this magic automation creates for correctness, completeness, security, performance, reliability? And how will it be maintained -- by more automation? Those aren't serious positions. On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:59:00 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Easy, the Vendors will have it set up for you to fill in some variables. White >collar IT workers will be automated out of jobs. The first wave of automation >killed blue collar jobs. The next wave will eliminate lots of white collar >jobs. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 6:48 PM, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > >On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:41, Bill Johnson wrote: >> Anyone considering assembler training first off will be hard pressed to >> find any training classes, and in 5 years AI will be able to produce >> better assembler programs than anyone here can write. > >How will anyone spec for the AI precisely what an assembler routine >has to do? > >Suppose it's an exit that has to support a mix of specific vendor >software and work in a site-specific way? > >I'm not saying it's impossible; it just strikes me that whoeever codes >the spec (in some yet to be imagined formal form) will in some sense >be writing the code. THEY need to understand the ins & outs... > >-- >Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 7:14 PM, g...@gabegold.com wrote: None of "DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations" are system programming -- so aren't relevant to this discussion. Many people calling themselves system programmers are in fact installers/configurers/administrators. Those are all useful, but also aren't what most people consider system programming. Without assembler skills, how do you program -- or even fully understand -- systems written in assembler? What I described doing is what most people consider system programming -- maintaining/developing/enhancing system-level software -- and involved skills shared by all the others on my teams at Mitre and VMSG. Someone without assembler fluency would have been useless in both places. Degrees aren't relevant -- that's... The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn't have proper credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. ...some of the best system programmers I've known had no degree. So good for you, degree in math and CS -- but so what? In this discussion, you're downplaying yourself with uninformed comments. As a system programmer without assembler skills, what did you DO? Not where did you work, what did you do that was system programming? And resorting to name calling, the last resort of bad arguments? On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:38:25 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Sure David, I’ve never been a Systems Programmer other than the last 19 years. >Before that, I was a DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, >manager of operations, programmer, and Operations for one of the largest auto >companies on the planet. I’ve worked in numerous industries, large and small >companies, and have a Math & Computer Science degree. Not the idiotic 2 year >tech degree that many colleges created to fast track kids into a burgeoning IT >industry. But keep trying to downplay me idiot. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 5:24 PM, David Spiegel ><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >HI Bill, >More vacuous and specious arguments. > >You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be >dangerous. ..." >Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. > >It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems >Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. >Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should >know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. >It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. > >It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". >Grow up and learn some Assembler. > >Regards, >David > >On 2023-09-03 12:37, Bill Johnson wrote: >> 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything. The fact is assembler is >> becoming less and less important as a skillset. Anyone who thinks learning >> it now is a worthwhile exercise is a fool. Yeah, I went through college when >> Assembler was a mandatory course and COBOL was an elective. Guess which was >> infinitely more critical in my career! In college we coded almost >> exclusively in PL/I, which I’ll bet was in deference to IBM. Never used it >> once in the real world. Like I mentioned previously, one professor said >> there’s no reason to learn JCL because it will be obsolete soon. That was >> 1980. JCL was probably the most important skill of my career. I did make one >> misstatement earlier about never using Assembler. One time around 2010, we >> needed to change IEFUSI. Three of us were able to make the necessary >> adjustments. >> >> In 40+ years in IT, 20+ in tech support, other than the one time mentioned >> above, none of my colleagues ever needed to make changes to assembler code. >> In fact, making changes to delivered software can be dangerous. >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >> >> >> On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 11:45 AM, g...@gabegold.com >> wrote: >> >> I've only had three jobs (3, 14, 6 years duration) before switching to >> freelance writing/editing/consulting in 1994. But I'll chime in anyway with >> my experience using assembler as a critical part of my work. I learned and >> used it at IBM doing operating system development. >> >> Second job was at Mitre Corporation in Virginia, where we installed early >> VM. I developed tools such as a system automation tool used widely in the VM >> community. Same for an early system performance monitor, also widely used. I >> enhanced the interface routine for IBM's OS-based GPSS simulation tool to >> support external calls to assembler code, needed by a user. I and other >> system
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
You'll rely on vendors anticipating with variables every possible requirement for every installation? What happens when management comes to IT with an urgent business case-justified request? Tell them so sad, too bad, our vendor doesn't allow that? You consider filling in variables to be system programming? Solving intricate business case technology problems will be automated? By systems like ChatGPT that hallucinate? And who'll judge what this magic automation creates for correctness, completeness, security, performance, reliability? And how will it be maintained -- by more automation? Those aren't serious positions. On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:59:00 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Easy, the Vendors will have it set up for you to fill in some variables. White >collar IT workers will be automated out of jobs. The first wave of automation >killed blue collar jobs. The next wave will eliminate lots of white collar >jobs. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 6:48 PM, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > >On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:41, Bill Johnson wrote: >> Anyone considering assembler training first off will be hard pressed to >> find any training classes, and in 5 years AI will be able to produce >> better assembler programs than anyone here can write. > >How will anyone spec for the AI precisely what an assembler routine >has to do? > >Suppose it's an exit that has to support a mix of specific vendor >software and work in a site-specific way? > >I'm not saying it's impossible; it just strikes me that whoeever codes >the spec (in some yet to be imagined formal form) will in some sense >be writing the code. THEY need to understand the ins & outs... > >-- >Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
None of "DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations" are system programming -- so aren't relevant to this discussion. Many people calling themselves system programmers are in fact installers/configurers/administrators. Those are all useful, but also aren't what most people consider system programming. Without assembler skills, how do you program -- or even fully understand -- systems written in assembler? What I described doing is what most people consider system programming -- maintaining/developing/enhancing system-level software -- and involved skills shared by all the others on my teams at Mitre and VMSG. Someone without assembler fluency would have been useless in both places. Degrees aren't relevant -- that's... The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn't have proper credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. ...some of the best system programmers I've known had no degree. So good for you, degree in math and CS -- but so what? In this discussion, you're downplaying yourself with uninformed comments. As a system programmer without assembler skills, what did you DO? Not where did you work, what did you do that was system programming? And resorting to name calling, the last resort of bad arguments? On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:38:25 +, Bill Johnson wrote: >Sure David, I’ve never been a Systems Programmer other than the last 19 years. >Before that, I was a DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, >manager of operations, programmer, and Operations for one of the largest auto >companies on the planet. I’ve worked in numerous industries, large and small >companies, and have a Math & Computer Science degree. Not the idiotic 2 year >tech degree that many colleges created to fast track kids into a burgeoning IT >industry. But keep trying to downplay me idiot. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 5:24 PM, David Spiegel ><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >HI Bill, >More vacuous and specious arguments. > >You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be >dangerous. ..." >Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. > >It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems >Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. >Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should >know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. >It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. > >It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". >Grow up and learn some Assembler. > >Regards, >David > >On 2023-09-03 12:37, Bill Johnson wrote: >> 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything. The fact is assembler is >> becoming less and less important as a skillset. Anyone who thinks learning >> it now is a worthwhile exercise is a fool. Yeah, I went through college when >> Assembler was a mandatory course and COBOL was an elective. Guess which was >> infinitely more critical in my career! In college we coded almost >> exclusively in PL/I, which I’ll bet was in deference to IBM. Never used it >> once in the real world. Like I mentioned previously, one professor said >> there’s no reason to learn JCL because it will be obsolete soon. That was >> 1980. JCL was probably the most important skill of my career. I did make one >> misstatement earlier about never using Assembler. One time around 2010, we >> needed to change IEFUSI. Three of us were able to make the necessary >> adjustments. >> >> In 40+ years in IT, 20+ in tech support, other than the one time mentioned >> above, none of my colleagues ever needed to make changes to assembler code. >> In fact, making changes to delivered software can be dangerous. >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >> >> >> On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 11:45 AM, g...@gabegold.com >> wrote: >> >> I've only had three jobs (3, 14, 6 years duration) before switching to >> freelance writing/editing/consulting in 1994. But I'll chime in anyway with >> my experience using assembler as a critical part of my work. I learned and >> used it at IBM doing operating system development. >> >> Second job was at Mitre Corporation in Virginia, where we installed early >> VM. I developed tools such as a system automation tool used widely in the VM >> community. Same for an early system performance monitor, also widely used. I >> enhanced the interface routine for IBM's OS-based GPSS simulation tool to >> support external calls to assembler code, needed by a user. I and other >> system programmers developed many other assembler-based tools which met the >> needs of our users, who worked on various government-sponsored projects. A >> noteworthy project for me was getting graphics software developed
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:59, Bill Johnson wrote: > Easy, the Vendors will have it set up for you to fill in some > variables. And if the variables they defined don't cover the /site/-specific needs (that the vendors know nothing about)? > On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 6:48 PM, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:41, Bill Johnson wrote: >> Anyone considering assembler training first off will be hard pressed to >> find any training classes, and in 5 years AI will be able to produce >> better assembler programs than anyone here can write. > > How will anyone spec for the AI precisely what an assembler routine > has to do? > > Suppose it's an exit that has to support a mix of specific vendor > software and work in a site-specific way? > > I'm not saying it's impossible; it just strikes me that whoeever codes > the spec (in some yet to be imagined formal form) will in some sense > be writing the code. THEY need to understand the ins & outs... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
