Re: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:28:08 -0800, you wrote: When I first addded him to our family 14 years ago, I thought something was wrong with him drew blood incl a T3/T4. It was low for that period then came up. That's interesting - in human hyperthyroid cases, low t3/t4 often gives excess hair growth and tiredness Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Air above the ground
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:34:53 -0800, you wrote: You take such awesome photos! What kind of camera are you using? A Canon 300D with an 80-200mm lens. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:15:27 -0800, you wrote: . how many of you are able to ride barefoot always and who feels they need to shoe? We have to shoe our riding horses, at least in front and sometimes all the way round. We have to ride on stony paths, gravel and tarmac roads a lot, but also through mud a fair bit where boots just don't stay on. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
That's interesting - in human hyperthyroid cases, low t3/t4 often gives excess hair growth and tiredness Yes, but you have to be very careful in assigning cause and effect. (Didn't I just say that maybe yesterday?) There's some link (sort of vague) between thyroid levels and IR. That's why so many vets looked to treat horses (like my Holly) with ThyroL when they founder. (Ok...literally, Holly didn't founder since her rotation was ultimately less than 1 degree, but there's no such verb for laminitis that I know of in this sense. I can't say that Holly laminitisated.) Now, they think that Holly probably didn't have a thyroid problem, but that the ThyroL acted as a diet pill to control her weight. Now, looking back, it's not necessarily a good idea to tamper with the thyroid function to control weight, but in Holly's case it worked well. She's been comfortably founder-free after those two attacks over 10 years ago. Holly was never particularly lethargic, before or after her Thyroid treatment. Well, finally after she reached 20, but heck, I'm pretty lethargic compared to what I was like in my 20's when I was a bundle of energy. A lot (the majority) of Cushing's horses have long coats, and they are lethargic. Other breeds of ponies are known for their long coats, especially in winter, but are not necessarily considered lethargic. My Icelandic foals are born with really long coats, and get them every fall - they aren't lethargic. The best I can tell, some hair coat growth patterns are genetic. Some changes in hair-growth patterns may indicate problems. We need to know the difference. I'm sure you can find Icelandic horses with odd thyroid levels. You can certainly find other breed horses with odd thyroid levels. One other thing: many Cushing's horses have long coats, and also have IR. Did you ever think that IR/Cushing's attacks are actually pretty common in the fall? Sundance's weight loss and founder came in September or October. We didn't check his thyroid that I remember. (Maybe we did? If so, it wasn't terribly off, if at all.) We DID check him for Cushing's and he was positive. Anyway, I just threw out a lot of symptoms. Of, these, tell me which is cause, and which is effect? Judging from the ongoing research I read about Cushings/IR/Metabolic Syndrome, I don't think the researchers who live and breathe this subject have all of this clear in their minds. They see some connections, but aren't precisely sure what the connections are. Why do I care? Because every darned time we write something off as just an Icey thing, like it's just harmless, like our horses are SOOO different, we take a chance on missing a BIG problem, one that may be treatable. That's NOT doing our horses any favors. We know that IR, Cushing's and other Metabolic Syndrome conditions happen within our breed. On the other hand, we may miss the obvious way to handle the long coats in most of our climates: clip the horses as needed. If we clip the horses and the lethargy goes away (as it has with all of mine), then problem is solved. If we clip the horses and the lethargy is still notable, maybe it's time to call the vet. Two separate issues - neither of which are unique to Icelandic's. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
--- Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On another list I'm on, those are fighting words, but ... how many of you are able to ride barefoot always and who feels they need to shoe? Nancy Yes Nancy, those would be fighting words over there, as they do not want to talk about barefoot and its benefits vs. shoeing when needed . Anyway, if your horse can go barefoot, we believe its best. That does not mean it can go without quality hoof care..good trimming at the intervals that the individual horse needs are best. It depends on the home pasture terrain, where you want to ride and how often the horse is worked and if there are any hoof conditions that may call for shoes for the horse to be comfortable. We desperatley tried barefoot here on our pastures, but the horn wears faster than the growth, so they need shoes here, or otherwise we would use boots to ride them in rocky area, which is most of our area One thing I mention is this, sometimes in the past we have had clients who are on a 6 week schedule, call us at 5 1/2 weeks to want to push the shoeing appointment forward another week because the feet look so goodwell then at 6 1/2 weeks they see a flare, or its beginning to look too long, then they call us to try to get us to come over right away to shoe.Really its best to figure out what interval your horse needs and stick to that, that way they are comfy and there feet can always look good and you will have less feet issues in the long run. Better to have the farrier come out before than after a problem arises, shoes or no shoes. Skye
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
--- Debbie K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a barefooter, which is why I have the Track system with rocks, most use river rock, I use gravel, cause I ride on gravel... I have boots that I put on if my horse is ouchy, I don't use them often.. Just wondering ...how much money to put in a system like that in your area? Here it is cost prohibited for us, plus we like them to be in the biggest pasture we can give them for a natural horse lifestyle. A 15' X 15' gravel area would cost us $600 (Not spread out...) not including the fencing, (each post on our land costs us about $60 to put in...we use trees whenever possible!) plus the full feeding every month at $30 a bale. We have 1 client who has a half acre completley dry lot, and 2 of hers still have fronts and one is barefoot. (1 is a 6 year foundered case who can not walk without shoes...all the vets told her to put her down, but she is rideable for light trails riding with special shoes) None of our other clients would go for anything that labor intensive and costly. Skye
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
As for blood, I think someone told me they use horse blood to make certain anti venoms or something?? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo Horse and sheep blood is used to make rattlesnake antivenin. Not in Iceland as we don´t have any snake´s or scorpions either the Blood mare´s has to be pregnant (that´s why we get lot´s of foals) and you put stallion to the herd in June and then in late august beginning of september you start to take blood from the mare´s that are pregnant they are after the hormon we produce when we (animals) are pregnant and you take 3-5 litre each time with a week between up to seven time´s each mare. people that are into breeding riding horses with high evaluated mare´s did try this on their mare´s but you have to have at least 20 mare´s that are on the same time in their pregnany to that it pay´s off for the veterinary to come out and take blood and then some folk´s talked about that they didn´t like it done to mare´s that are very valuble ect.ect. so most blood farmers have around 50-60 mare´s or more and it´s a lot of work with it in the autumn. and the foals are bi-product. onefarmer that i know do try to get 1 prize stallions on he´s trained mare´s and hopinng to sell the foals easier then butas the market is here you don´t sell all and the rest often end´s up in the slaughter house Regards Malin in Iceland
Re: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
my Fox is lethargic, slightly off feed, and nervous when I took him out to saddle and ride, (he's not ordinarily a jumpy horse), then I saw him quidding so he's got a mouth/teeth issue and I have to have the tooth vet out. I have lethargy and too much hair on my chin this time of year also. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Oh my...
On 11/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree about the ones that zip and unzip. My Hilason is the endurance and it unzips and the hard foam will come out. I am looking for the wool that you stuff a saddle with to put in the pockets. go to a fabric shop, they might have it, or cotton batting for quilts. some people use that. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Oh my...
I am big Monica, and I ride in a Sensation hybrid. I sorta spill over if you know what I mean, but its like pants, I can wear size stretchy 14 but I realy wear closer to 18. I could get a bigger saddle and just spread out into it more. The sensation hybrid is best for my horse tho. I have four horses I ride regularly and two of them have to have saddles just for them and two of them seem to act and move like they wouldnt care if I duct taped a folding chair on them and rode in it. But the sensation works for them too so why not. I had a hilason and a trekker treeless and the deal with those was that the stirrups are hanging in a fixed position that because of my body shape made me have to sit perched forward. I always felt uncomfortable! and its not good for gait in most horses I would say. wasnt good for mine! also it outs you in launch position. with the sensation you can move the stirrup hangers around until you get your natural position. I also could use the sensation stirrup hangers on my Trekker which was a godsend. but I sold it to buy a sensation. but the sensation stirrup hanger thing was only about 20 bucks. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] FIRES
WELL, we had a fire here in Ramona today and it was put out fast. Not a mile away from our place. Sylvia Oh, I hadn't heard about that and haven't seen any smoke in the sky. I'm glad they got it out quickly. That must have been scary. Kim Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
RE: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
I have lethargy and too much hair on my chin this time of year also. Ok, but that's SO different, Janice. It certainly isn't a typical internationally known middle-aged menopausal woman condition, right? It ONLY occurs in the breed of women born in the panhandle of Florida, just south of the Alabama border, and only in the fall, I'm sure Hehehe! Not that you are either middle-aged, or menopausal, Janice. I'm sure your breed doesn't have menopause, and your kind are eternally young, right? ;) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
On Nov 25, 2007 12:05 AM, Raven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Young patient trainer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw I may be wrong, but from what I was reading of the videographer's comments, I believe she was trying to show that these horses needed to be listened to as to why they were reacting so violently. She was very diplomatic and non-judgemental in her comments, probably knew the people in the video and didn't want to offend them. It appears that the commenters weren't getting the message. They were praising the 'rodeo' type riding instead. If that is what she meant and I was her I would be frustrated beyond belief. I am on dial up and watching a 5 min video literally takes 30 mins to download, so I've only watched about 2 mins. of the video -- Anna Southern Ohio
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
We desperatley tried barefoot here on our pastures, but the horn wears faster than the growth, so they need shoes here, or otherwise we would use boots to ride them in rocky area, which is most of our area Skye, for those who don't realize where you live, you should probably point out that you live on The Big Island, the island of Hawaii in the state of Hawaii. Hawaii is probably some of the newest geography within the borders of the USA. The island is still forming with active volcanoes. (As opposed to the Hawaiian island of Kauai or even Oahu, which I would say are more seismically settled.) I only visited the island once, but maybe some list members have never been there. When I arrived on the island of Hawaii, I was fascinated and amazed at the terrain. Much of the land around the airport - and much of the island - resembles a giant, old parking lot, where the asphalt has buckled and developed huge potholes from lack of care - very stark and rugged. However, the parking lots of Hawaii are natural, produced by lava flows. In a way, it was almost ugly, but so dramatic to me that it transcended my traditional ideas of beauty. Before I visited, I assumed I'd like the garden island of Kauai much better than Hawaii, but I left the state with a new definition of geographical beauty. Hawaii, the big island, is certainly a beautiful state, with small areas of rainforests, deserts, black sand beaches, in addition to the old lava flows. Not all of the island is like that old parking lot - I think you said you live on the Kilauea side? It is an island with active volcanic activity, an island still growing, with rocks and huge rough areas unlike what many/most of us encounter daily. As far as rules of thumb for leaving our horses barefoot or shoeing them, I think you are in such an extreme environment that is foreign to what much of us on the mainland live with. I think it's only fair that you qualify that when you talk about barefoot horses. Aren't you fairly near the area of the black sand beaches? Just more inland? Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 09:14:18AM -0600, Raven wrote: 3-5 liters at a time? 3 liters is 100.5 ounces. there are 128 ounces in a gallon. if 5 liters are taken from the mare...that is alot of blood. humans donate by the pint (16 oz) and need to be at least 110# to do so. (i hover around there, so the figure is important to me.) an 800# pony should have no problem losing around 100 oz. as a vet once put it to me when i was freaking out, your horse can lose enough blood to paint your barn before it becomes a problem. just sayin'. i still have no idea about the veracity of this story. --vicka ps. on another front, i have had two people who have lived in iceland confirm the feeding fish/fish-oil story. apparently it's loaded with nutrition, which icelandic winter pasture grass is not. in the usa it is probably cheaper to obtain flax oil or somesuch for similar goodness for coat and hooves and heart and connective tissue.
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
may be wrong, but from what I was reading of the videographer's comments, I believe she was trying to show that these horses needed to be listened to as to why they were reacting so violently yes. that was her message. ;] She was very diplomatic and non-judgemental in her comments, probably knew the people in the video and didn't want to offend them actaully...i think she is the rider on ALL the horses. she is showing the before and after videos. i wonder who she is and where she is located? Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] winter chaps
On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 08:02:42PM -0800, Lorraine wrote: I'm considering ordering a pair of these for Kevin. Gosh those look warm. It actually is cold today in AZ. What the heck. It is like 60 and windy. if you can still find them, the icelandic riding suits cover your whole body and have full-seat leather for about $75 more. --vicka (who might or might not wear hers today, but sure wishes she had taken them out yesterdaybrrr!)
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
humans donate by the pint (16 oz) and need to be at least 110# to do so. (i hover around there, so the figure is important to me.) an 800# pony should have no problem losing around 100 oz. Well, pregnant mares certainly produce gallons of pee too. Free! As far as I know, no one has ever complained about recycling urine into hormones. The issue has been with how the pregnant mares have to be kept in order to collect the free resource, and what to do with the resultant, unwanted foals. I don't know what's the story behind this situation, but let's keep our eyes focused on the important issues. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
She was very diplomatic and non-judgemental in her comments, probably knew the people in the video and didn't want to offend them -- I think there is a lot to this video that is positive - she calmly rode through the bad behavior but I also think in some instances she was settting up the bad behavior with her reins and nosebands too tight - she gave the horses no where to go. This is typical dressage training and I think sometime dressgae trainers need to learn to western ride and just let the horse learn to go forward without a frame - dressage trainers usually want to immediately put their horse in a frame. Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
[IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
ps. on another front, i have had two people who have lived in Iceland confirm the feeding fish/fish-oil story. apparently it's loaded with nutrition, which icelandic winter pasture grass is not. in the usa it is probably cheaper to obtain flax oil or somesuch for similar goodness for coat and hooves and heart and connective tissue. Oh for goodness sakes, let's get real here! Janice brought this issue up as a lark, a Janice-ism. Somehow, this has turned into folk wisdom...YIKES. Janice, see what you did? :) Vicka, if there's anything Iceland is famous for, it's the sagas. They are a people of a great story-telling history. As you would say, just sayin'. That's neither a condemnation nor praise. But, when people start literally taking some of these old spins as sage nutritional advise...oh, spare me! How gullible can we get?!! Of all the old myths, sagas, whatever, I've heard about Icelandic horses, I have NEVER heard the story of the barrels of salted herring promoted as nutritional wisdom until this thread. Never. The only way I've ever heard this story spun was as that during times of severe hardship, the farmers put out barrels of fish because that's all they had. It wasn't for any essential fatty acids they provided. It was for pure SURVIVAL. There was no grass. There was no hay. They DID have fish. If you want to get literal, I'm sure the Donner Party consumed some great nutrients in their infamous winter during the 1840's...but do we want to play THAT into a modern-day nutritional trend? Hey, their diet was even organic! What the Donner Party did was a matter of simple survival too... Horses don't eat fish of their own accord. Let's drop this subject and get sensible. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Hi Karen Horses don't eat fish of their own accord. Let's drop this subject and get sensible. I have been away so not part of this thread so this may not be relevant but I have seen barrels of frozen herring in many barns in Iceland and they fed the horses 1-2 fish a day as a supplement. This may not happen today. I also know Mickey and Julie Collins in Alaska and they told me that several of their horses would eat the white fish that was meant for her dogs. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 10:37:08AM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: We desperatley tried barefoot here on our pastures, but the horn wears faster than the growth, so they need shoes here, or otherwise we would use boots to ride them in rocky area, which is most of our area Skye, for those who don't realize where you live, you should probably point out that you live on The Big Island, the island of Hawaii in the state of Hawaii. Hawaii is probably some of the newest geography within the borders of the USA. as another datapoint, here in new england (geologically antiquated and inactive, glacially formed) i am currently trying barefoot with my stjarni. (mostly b/c i have so far found a very skilled barefoot trimmer and only kinda lousy shoe farriers) his back feet, after a year, are just fine. his front feet, after about four months (supplemented with a hoof-specific dietary supplement from smartpak and a topical use of keratex) still tend to chip. i'm worrying about what i am going to do when the ice sets in (we're getting frosts now, i figure on ice in the next couple weeks) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Skye, To put in our track was not very expensive at all... I put in push in posts at less then 2 bucks a post and some yellow or white wire, I put in a T post on every side of the big East inner Oval the rest are just push in posts the gravel, well, that was there before I did the track, as we have TONS OF BOOT SUCKING OFF MUD, I got tired of walking in my socks I added a couple truck loads each year, unfortunately, it is getting a lot more expensive here... hay, well we feed 700 lb bales, they get on leafs 2-3 times a day spread out when the weather permits... today was to windy to spread out... along with letting them into the ovals once a day for grass... no added cost there, cause we could not feed full time on grass anyway, they got to fat and one mare we had, a Paso Fino Foundered... this way they are all looking good, cause they MOVE a lot searching for grass or hay... and just moving, running, plalying... Here is a picture of Joe Camps Track on 1.5 acres of land... I love his rocks and hillside... http://www.nakedhorsemanship.com/horseboarding.htm Oh by the way, I have been reading his New book... I LOVE IT so far... I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
[IceHorses] Desert Pics
Everyone seemed to really enjoy Lorraine's pictures of the desert. I live in the same area and always take many pictures when we trail ride. I have posted a few on the photos page (page 2) they are under Carol from AZ. IF you like them let me know and I can ad more. We ride almost every day and I always take my camera. Thanks Carol
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
BTW...she also has other horse training videos on YouTube. it's great to see this young girl work the horses she is training. I think she's a very talented rider/trainer. here are some of her comments made on the horses in the video. Yes I am the rider in all the clips. I still have a lot to learn myself. Just have to take the time to figure it out, its not always easy! None of them in particular had a problem from pain. I did adjust a couple small things with a couple of their saddles, but really none of them had pain issues. The first one in the video longing however was coldbacked. I am very big about checking for pain when I start working with a horse, especially ones with difficulties. Absolutely the first thing to look for. I am in SE Texas. I work for my trainer at the barn I keep one of my own horses, and I also go to a couple other barns and work there. Although they are not playing and having fun, they all have precific problems that had to be individually searched and adressed. Each horse has a 'woohoo' day here and there, these were more than just simple 'woohoo' days ;D. Every horse I ride teaches me something, whether it be the more obviously difficult ones or the more quietly troubled ones. (or not troubled at all!) The loud ones just give a clear message for the video. Oh yes, I have done ground work with most of them. What is often labeled 'join-up' basics I do with a lot of them. I don't like to over-do ground work either. I want to understand them, get that connection that kind of thing. Beyond that not much more - unless they have bad ground manners that need correcting or they are a horse I longe. I think amounts of ground work are wonderful and I do it, but I don't go beyond what is necessary for the horse. Yes, my passion is in dressage. The basics of the discipline help just about every horse - learning rhythm, balance, relaxation and so on. I have ridden horses who are not dressage horses and never will be, but the work helped them in what they were doing. I ride in many different saddles. My own horse has one made for him. The grey is in a Wintec (endurance not dressage), the others went in their owners imported saddles. (not exactly sure how to spell it and do not want to be incorrect in the name) Whatever fits the horse, I have learned to adapt to many types of saddle. Sitting the different movements takes balance, experience, even an understanding of it. You have to know you can do it too ;D. Yes losing your temper is a very normal human reaction and a big problem when working with horses. There are a lot of thing we do for them though, and learning to keep ourselves calm should be on the list ^_^. I tend to get the reaction of cracking a smile when something happens - horses minds and power amuse me. Yes, it is important to keep calm - you can't expect the horse to be calm if your are not so yourself. Lots of riding and riding a lot of different horses (with training from my instructor) helps to improve a rider. I am 19. A lot of riding on a lot of different horses. Part of not being scared is just natural to me. Another part is understanding. It helps a lot (to some at least) to understand why a horse did something that might scare a rider. The more the rider understands it it can be less scary and the more you can learn how to work through it and know that you can the less scary it becomes. It is not for everyone to deal with the most difficult situations, but most riders can lessen a lot of their fears. In reference to the horses in the video. ll of these actually came from a very similar base: training. (except the one on the longe - he was also cold-backed) They all had trainers and riders in their past where that issues came. Most of them for similar reasons: Too harsh a hand and leg. They all had different reactions and required different ways to help them through. They grey had many a more problems with riding and training, he was mentally fried. He was by far the most mentally difficult, but so rewarding to see him happy. I have much to learn myself, but the simple message of taking the time and looking at the situation is just one so many people ignore. You have obviously missed the message of this video. I am not promoting my 'cool-factor'. I have fallen before, as many riders and you will most likely one day. The horses are not 'wild' they have difficulties, I can work through them, that is nothing to be ashamed of, nor gloat about. This video has a message much deeper than me as a rider, if you missed it, I am sorry. I am not sure if I am brave, just know my limits as anyone else. I of course will do my best to stay safe, keep the brain cap on. ::pats helmet:: Oh yes they are all lovely now, which is of course the point of the second part of the video. The bay who reared went to a lovely show home, the buckskin pony just had a foal (she was moved and no one was small enough to ride her), the gray has other updated videos, and the bucking bay
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
Well, pregnant mares certainly produce gallons of pee too. Free! As far as I know, no one has ever complained about recycling urine into hormones actually karen...there has been alot of complaining about how the mare's urine is collected. it's a inhumane method. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
[IceHorses] Re: sensation hybrid ? for Karen
Karen: yours has the standard dressage flap FOR A HYBRID. The only flaps you can order for the Hybrid are Hybrid Dressage Flap or Hybrid/English Trail Flap. I stand corrected made a BIG typo on the Western info (never should multi task while doing e-mails)base length IS the same as all the other models.. it's the flexible skirt that extends it 4. The flexible skirt is very soft, so it's only visually a longer look. Mu guys did not mind it at all, I just prefer the English Trail for my body comfort. Your hot off the presses Dressage Model may well be a bit shorter than what I have seen out here/ what Dana herself measured if it is you're very lucky to have it because Icey's as we all know can have a shorter back length to deal with . That particular saddle could really come in handy with all the different backs you have at your place. If you ever want to sell it, I have several smaller clients on the wait list for a shorter Sensation for their very short backed horses their smaller size. I sold both of mine that were demos because I need the XL seat versatility for my larger demo humans. If smaller people try them, I just include the bolsters!! Laree has one from the same vintage...care to weigh in on your base length Laree?? It would be interesting just to compare! Kaaren
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
but let's keep our eyes focused on the important issues. which are? Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
[IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
I just find it interesting that the low T3/T4 occurs every year for 14 years during the Fall time rights itself during the other times of the year wonder if others have observed anything similar. If it stayed low year round, that would be a different story. Could be entirely unrelated to a metabolic change with the prep for winter...maybe not All I care about is that I have found strategies to help him so he feels better during this time that haven't caused any negative effects are economical. Kaaren
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
I have been away so not part of this thread so this may not be relevant but I have seen barrels of frozen herring in many barns in Iceland and they fed the horses 1-2 fish a day as a supplement. This may not happen today. I have a horse that will drink coffee and eat peanut butter crackers. Kola ate part of an orange hay string before I could get it away from her. My old QH ate a live mouse once - to my horror, I witnessed that event. I eat chocolate cake and French fries. My golden retriever (long deceased) ate such things as a bar of soap, a disposable baby diaper, and one of Cary's socks. Emily swallowed a penny once, and like most kids who grew up with animals, I caught her sampling dog kibble once. The Donner Party ate other humans. I don't think Sundance thrived for years BECAUSE he ate a live mouse...maybe DESPITE eating it would be more likely. Just because an animal has eaten something - voluntarily or taught by a human - doesn't make it meaningful, nutritious, or even desirable. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
actually karen...there has been alot of complaining about how the mare's urine is collected. it's a inhumane method. Yes, I know that and I noted it in the next sentence, if you'd kept reading. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: sensation hybrid ? for Karen
Laree has one from the same vintage...care to weigh in on your base length Laree?? It would be interesting just to compare! Kaaren - I have nothing here to compare mine to - it fits me well (and I'm not small) and fits both the horses here well, so I never compared it to any others - I just enjoy it :-)) -- Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
On 25/11/2007, Raven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW...she also has other horse training videos on YouTube. it's great to see this young girl work the horses she is training. I think she's a very talented rider/trainer. here are some of her comments made on the horses in the video. Well...she seems to be saying all the right things, but those horses are still bucking when she's on them. This is just my totally uneducated guess, but if a horse is still bucking when you first ride them, then you haven't done enough ground work. A bucking horse is not prepared. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
On 11/25/07, Kaaren Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just find it interesting that the low T3/T4 occurs every year for 14 years during the Fall time rights itself during the other times of the year wonder if others have observed anything similar. That's interesting, Kaaren, and I think significant to know All I care about is that I have found strategies to help him so he feels better during this time that haven't caused any negative effects are economical. And isn't that what matters - :-)) Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Swedish Woman Saves Icelandic Ponies
but let's keep our eyes focused on the important issues. which are? I'm sorry, but I thought I was pretty clear when I wrote in the sentence preceding your quote, The issue has been with how the pregnant mares have to be kept in order to collect the free resource, and what to do with the resultant, unwanted foals. I don't know what's the story behind this situation, but let's keep our eyes focused on the important issues. What I see as the main issues are: 1) how the mares are kept during the collection process and 2) what happens to the unwanted foals that are a by-product. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Just because an animal has eaten something - voluntarily or taught by a human - doesn't make it meaningful, nutritious, or even desirable. Actually, though, in this case, I think an argument could be made that there is nutritional benefit in eating fish. Raising Dobermans, for years, we dealt with a lot of skin issues because Dobes just seem to be prone to them. The we started feeding them sardines packed in oil and the skin problems would clear up beautifully. Many people we shared this with had the same results and I have thought about adding them to Doppa's diet to see if they helped with her SE but I haven't figured out what the ideal amount would be and if it would be cost prohibitive. Fish oil has been proven to have health benefits - I take it in capsule form myself. -- Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:47:06 -0500, you wrote: I have a horse that will drink coffee a I had a cat (pre-divorce) who used to love to eat coffee grounds, fresh or used. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Actually, though, in this case, I think an argument could be made that there is nutritional benefit in eating fish. Laree, What I remember hearing was that they filled the barrel with alternating layers of salt and fish. They built a nutritional block (like we use here today) with resources available to them to supply extra nutrition during the long winters. They are a strong people. Learned to survive in a harsh environment with what they had. I have respect for their creative resourcefulness. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses Icelandic Sheepdogs website: www.toltallyice.com
Re: [IceHorses] Desert Pics
We ride almost every day and I always take my camera. If you ride everyday then when are we going to go? Lorraine Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
[IceHorses] barn sour
Dagur has a serious barn sour issue. Do you think sending to a trainer would help? Lorraine Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Keratex, I don't know what that is for sure... I do know from experience that some things can be Toxic and Caustic, coppertox for one is... we have been using Usnea and others use White Lightening soaks to kill the greeblies that cause the foot to chip to high, but generally, I find small amounts of Chipping to mean that the hoof is self trimming they may need more movement on abrasive ground to help with the self trimming or a quick rasp to round up the hoof, I liken it to rasping our fingernails when they get to long and start to break or chip, snag on things, however, I have also learned that the chips are great for traction on muddy land... so, I learned not to file to much on muddy days or rides... I have learned over the years that in soft and or wet ground they tend to have a longer hoof, it helps to dig into the soft ground, which allows the break over to be in the correct place... however, when the ground is hard and dry, the hoof/toe has to shorten up to allow the break over to be in the correct place, thus the foot will chip more often when the ground is drying up or dry, then it will when the ground is soft or wet and muddy.. Here in the midwest, we have a wet/dry cycle it seems... The hoof really takes care of itself here now that I have my track system with soft/hard ground and the gravel in the areas that tended to get so MUDDY, So now I just keep an eye on the hooves, if they shorten up with the natural rasping of my gravel and their constant moving across it, I leave them alone, if they don't, well then I trim them... generally I just have to balance them here and there from time to time... I have gotten really spoiled as I use to trim every 4 weeks for sure as well as a quick touch up before every ride... Charm who was born here and has lived on gravel all her life, very rarely needs any help with balancing of the hoof, She is 3.5 years old and never been ridden... Jewel has a clubby right foot, so I trim that heel from time to time, as well as the toe on the Low Left foot and I have to balance his hooves from left to right as he wears the outsides more then the insides, Duke, he is the MFT and is pigeoned toed, so I have to balance him too from time to time... Molly the mule, she self trims, however, she had a deep bit of thrush years ago, so I have to watch that and treat it from time to time, I have used Usnea on her and am amazed at how well that has helped with hoof balance too, I don't think I ever got that thrush cleaned out completely before I started using Usnea on her, i only use a few drops of it at a time, weekly for 3 weeks When I apply it she tends to wear her feet better balanced on her own, Before I used it, she wore her hooves unbalanced... which makes sense, she did not put as much weight on the painful side as she did on the clean side so the hoof wore unevenly, I thought the thrush was GONE before I started using the Usnea, but thought, what the heck, lets apply it and see if there is a change and there has been... sorry, maybe more info then anyone wanted... I just got carried away on this cold, blustery day in SE MN... -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Here's a couple of notes from 1998 by Ragnar about fish: Hello! About using fish as food for horses in Iceland it is not common but some farmers buy salted cutoffs from herring factories and give the outside going horses (a barrel they eat as they wish from!). We think this is very good for the horses, give them fat and lot of valuable ingredients and salt which many horses lack. Fish meal is not common to use as separate food but it is used in most or all feed-mixes we use. The quality of this fish meal is very variable - for cows and sheeps I have heard the low quality meal dried in fire burners is good(best) but today the most used meal is of a lot higher quality, dried with low temperature so most of the valuable ingredients are saved! As you say salted herring(not red herring!) or actually it mainly is the offcut from the herring or capelin salted in barrels we use widely as food for sheep and horses! This is specially used for horses who go outside all the winter as a food supplement!! I would belive all kinds of fish was actual to use, but we seek for the fat fish like herring and capelin! I would never risk to give it fresh but as salted it is limited how much they can eat! Dried fish is far too expensive - at least the Icelandic one (40-50 $/kg!). The horses get a barrel to eat of - and while we used tree-barrels they often ate the barrel too! Regards, Ragnar Judy
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Thanks Judy for bringing Ragnar back! I often wonder how he is these days. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandic Sheepdogs Puppies by CH Vesturhlithar Loki are HERE! Website: www.sandcreekicelandics.com
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Actually, though, in this case, I think an argument could be made that there is nutritional benefit in eating fish. Raising Dobermans, for years, we dealt with a lot of skin issues because Dobes just seem to be prone to them. I think a valid point is that horses are herbivores, where humans are omnivores and dogs are carnivores. As I said earlier, I have no doubt that there are certain nutrients that can be taken in many forms - some good, some digestible, and some not so digestible. Some nutrients can be obtained from plant sources, as well as from animal sources - if the particular nutrient is even needed by the species. Just because Icelandic horses HAVE been fed fish doesn't make me believe that they SHOULD be fed fish. BTW, I owned a dog once that would actually catch fish out of our pond. Seriously. I didn't want her eating fish bones though, so we discouraged it. Dogs will also catch and eat chickens, but most of us won't knowingly allow our dogs to eat chicken bones. So, even within our carnivore pets, we exercise the necessary precautions. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
then you haven't done enough ground work. That is what I thought the first ride. More groundwork is needed.
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Hawaii is probably some of the newest geography within the borders of the USA. The island is still forming with active volcanoes. (As opposed to the Hawaiian island of Kauai or even Oahu, which I would say are more seismically settled.) Good descriptions Karen. The parking lot look is lava called pahoehoe. The flows by the Kona airport are pretty old I blieve, I would have to look it up, but I think they are around 600-700 years old, which really is baby terms for the earth. But they get almost no rain in that area, so dirt takes FOREVER to happen, as it is difficult for plants and seeds to start in that type of flow. Our land that we live on is a lava flow from I think the year is 1790...so a couple of hundred years old. It was a A'a flow, which has much more air and is porous, so plants can start easily. However it can look so amazing and green like our place, but really the horses are walking on lava with grass (and weeds!) growing right on top of it. We have a farrier buisness though and most of our clients do not live in our district. We travel to 5 other districts to work. (sometimes travelling 2 1/2 hours one way) Each area is so different, so a lot of our buisness is barefoot, and Sally will help anyone transition to barefoot if she thinks their terrain and horse and rider are a match. She would prefer her whole business to be barefoot, but here thats just not going to happen, or would would not be able to eat for lack of enough barefoot horses to do. But, it still holds true. That if your horses hoof wears down faster than the growth, then your horse needs shoes. I know in other rocky areas on the mainland there are areas like that. One thing that is difficult for me is the attitude of some barefoot people that you are being abusive if you put shoes on. I challenge any of them to come here on our land and do it. Sally worked with Sabine Kells (Dr. Hilltuds Straussers assistant) and Gene Ovnick here on island...if barefoot would have worked here we would have done it! The attitude that any horse in any terrain with any rider and any riding can go barefoot just disturbs me. The barefoot movement has become a place of judgement for those of us who need to put on shoes for the comfort of our horses. I am not liked on the barefoot list and seen as a horse abuser. Skye
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
his front feet, after about four months (supplemented with a hoof-specific dietary supplement from smartpak and a topical use of keratex) still tend to chip. i'm worrying about what i am going to do when the ice sets in --vicka Well if you are still getting chips, one of the ways that could be helped is with more frequent trimming, but trimming a smaller amount each time...some of our barefoot clients are on a 4 week schedule and do well, some are on a 8 week schedule, some 6 week...it all depends on each horse and terrain. Ask your trimmer if more frequent trims and trimming a little less each time would be beneficial for your horse. When we are riding a lot, like 5 times a week, we have to shoe our horses here at every 4 weeks because the shoes wear too thin. But I found that their feet are always in that perfect zone when done at every 4 weeks...no chips, no stumbling, great movement, comfy horses, as they do not have to go from long toes to short toes in a half hour. Skye
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
--- Debbie K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skye, To put in our track was not very expensive at all... I put in push in posts at less then 2 bucks a post the gravel, well, that was there before I did the track, as we have TONS OF BOOT SUCKING OFF MUD, I got tired of walking in my socks I added a couple truck loads each year, unfortunately, it is getting a lot more expensive here... cause they MOVE a lot searching for grass or hay... and just moving, running, plalying... We have a dry lot paddock...it is mostly weeds that they do not eat with other types of stuff growing on top of our lovely rock. But we have always spread out the feed to the horses that are kept in there, its about a half acrewe want then to move around and hunt for the feed. That way they are not standing at a bucket for a half hour eating the feed and then standing there waiting till lunchtime. We kept Foss there and full feed him...now I have a IR Icelandic gelding that stays therewe tell our clients to do the same...put the feed all over and let them move around to eatsimulate as much as possible to what they wouyld do naturally in the wild. We just went to the ranch yesterday and saw Sallys ranch gelding. He has been there about 6 weeks nowhe saw us and would not come unless we were on the other side of the fence. He did not want to be caught and brought back to our home. He wants to stay out on the huge pasture with all the other working horses. Horses really love to be in a place where they can take care of themselves...walk for the feed and be with a herd. Skye
[IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
I just thought it was a hoot when I first got Lalli newly imported from Iceland that he stole a sardine sandwhich out of my hands gobbled it down with great relish. Very sorry to have offended/confused anyone with this story as well as the bobbing for goldfish story. It was not meant to endorse/encourage others to feed fish or anything esle horses don't usually get...I just thought they were funny charming stories. Just for the record, I don't feed my horses anything other than grass hay with an after ride bowl of soaked grass hay pellets Occasionally I do like to feed a treat of cut up apple/carrots or a small piece of dried bread (which Didi who used to own Lalli said was his favorite treat) because we ALL deserve an indulgence once in a while. Kaaren
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Hi Karen, I think this is a fairly interesting discussion, which as long as it can be done without people being defensive, could be quite valuable. I think a valid point is that horses are herbivores, where humans are omnivores and dogs are carnivores. My father was involved with shipping fish meal to Japan for many years. They fed it to cattle which I am pretty sure are also herbivores - and I know that the feeding of animal products to cows, sheep, pigs has been done causing potentially huge problems - Mad cow etc. Fish meal has been used as a food supplement for many years in feed for the protein, oils etc that it adds. As I said earlier, I have no doubt that there are certain nutrients that can be taken in many forms - some good, some digestible, and some not so digestible. There are also various types of hay that people disagree as to being good for horses. Calcium / phosphorus imbalances in certain types of hay are not so good for horses but if that is all you have to feed that is what you feed, and there is plenty of disagreement about that. Dogs will also catch and eat chickens, but most of us won't knowingly allow our dogs to eat chicken bones. So, even within our carnivore pets, we exercise the necessary precautions. As far as feeding dogs fish or chicken with bones - I do it all the time, as long as it is raw it is very unlikely that there will be a problem. Some may disagree with feeding a raw diet but it is been done by many people with success and overcoming many physical problems with dogs and cats. Just because Icelandic horses HAVE been fed fish doesn't make me believe that they SHOULD be fed fish. I am not suggesting that I am going to feed my Icelandics fish, nor that anyone needs to but it is definitely not one of the sagas that they are/ or were fed fish in Iceland which was the premise being put forth and what prompted me to write. I envy any of you that are eating leftover turkey from Thanksgiving because that is my favourite part. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
[IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
About using fish as food for horses in Iceland it is not common ... The horses get a barrel to eat of - and while we used tree-barrels they often ate the barrel too! Here's another note from about the same time: Last year a group of us were in Upper Wisconsin and my dad, an ice fisherman, made up a barrel of fish from a recipe I got on the list. Well.I think it's an aquired taste. The horses, all imports, wouldn't eat it, even spit it out when we hand fed it. I think it's a cultural thing. I wonder if the fish eating is something that is done out of necessity by the horses (i.e. not enough food). Judy
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
One thing that is difficult for me is the attitude of some barefoot people that you are being abusive if you put shoes on. I challenge any of them to come here on our land and do it. I understand and I agree. I'm a barefoot fan, and not just a recent convert. My herd has been barefoot for something like 17 years, with only a couple of very minor exceptions. We ride on rocky terrain sometimes, but our pastures and local trails are pretty easy - no rocks to speak of in the pasture, and very few on our trails. We can (and do) use boots for all of our extreme riding, but we never pull them out for our day-to-day rides. If I can have this many horses barefoot, for this long a period, I'm convinced that many more horses could be barefoot than are. BUT, I've never lived in an environment like yours, or like some people live in. I honestly wish more people would give barefoot a fair and honest chance, but if I lived/rode in an environment where any or all of my horses couldn't be comfortable barefoot, I'd put shoes on them in a heartbeat. No dogma is more important to me than the health and comfort of my horses. :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
I wonder if the fish eating is something that is done out of necessity by the horses (i.e. not enough food). That's what I always believed. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
RE: [IceHorses] barn sour
Dagur has a serious barn sour issue. Do you think sending to a trainer would help? Hard to say. My gut tells me that sometimes a barn sourness issue may be relevant to the situation of the moment. Is it possible that Dagur is actually buddy sour and doesn't want to leave Scooter? If he's at a trainer's barn, and Scooter isn't there, would the training transfer back to his situation back at home? I'm just asking because I certainly don't know... Do you have a trainer in your area who might come help you at your place, with you riding? In a lot of cases, I think that works better than sending a horse off to a trainer, but without knowing your horses, it would be hard to say. What do you think? Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Perhaps the salted herring was also about the salt. That is the way I've always looked at it... a fortified salt block! :o) Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses Icelandic Sheepdogs website: www.toltallyice.com
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Hi Karen, My old QH ate a live mouse once - to my horror, I witnessed that event. If you could have taught him to just kill them and not eat them then you would have had one fantastic mouser!! : }} Mandy used to lick the horse's salt block, her pediatrician who also bought Icelandics from us said it was probably why she was so healthy : )) Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
I think it probably was although interesting how that happened. The Collins twins had a domestic bred mare stomp on a whitefish that they had just pulled from the water, for their dogs, and ate it. Maybe she was really really hungry, I thought it was pretty strange. Not something I have considered offering my horses. A friend of mine and I have talked in the past about how on earth did early humans learn what foods are good, which are bad, etc... Her favorite question is always, What on earth ever prompted the first person to try eating an EGG, knowing where they come from? What was he thinking? She goes on to say she's sure a guy discovered that one... Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Desert Pics
Everyone seemed to really enjoy Lorraine's pictures of the desert. I live in the same area and always take many pictures when we trail ride. I have posted a few on the photos page (page 2) they are under Carol from AZ. IF you like them let me know and I can ad more. We ride almost every day and I always take my camera. Ooh, great pictures! Svipur is so cute...reminds me so much of someone near and dear to my heart. :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Hi Karen A friend of mine and I have talked in the past about how on earth did early humans learn what foods are good, which are bad, etc... Her favorite question is always, What on earth ever prompted the first person to try eating an EGG, knowing where they come from? THAT is a good question. I also wonder about things like artichokes - how on earth did anyone find out that if you went through all the prickly bits there was a yummy small bit at the bottom??? I guess necessity... or a dare? Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] barn sour
--- Lorraine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dagur has a serious barn sour issue. Do you think sending to a trainer would help? Lorraine Well...for me I would handle it myself. I would start by taking him out on short rides or walks and letting him graze or feeding him something that he never gets at home...grooming him, spending time together out on the trail with ease, no pressure...and just extending the periods each week. Make going out a fun adventure. Sometimes with a horse that is very barn sour when they come back from all that fun, I tie them up and untack them, let them just stand for awhile...of course letting them drink water before I tie them up. I never feed once back at the barn. Going out is fun, coming back, well a mixed bag. Skye
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
I am not suggesting that I am going to feed my Icelandics fish, nor that anyone needs to but it is definitely not one of the sagas that they are/ or were fed fish in Iceland Was it one of the Icelanders, way back, that made reference to it being in the sagas, maybe implying that it was not true that fish were fed to the horses. Judy
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
??? I guess necessity... or a dare? I think the dare factor is what makes my friend assume it was a guy discovered eggs as food! :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[IceHorses] Myth, Saga, Truth, Reality
The discussion about horses eating fish is interesting. Trying to figure out what is myth, saga, truth, or reality sometimes needs to be teased out. In any case, a quote from Dr. Atul Gawande, author of Better: Further improvements come through greater transparency. Which means... ?? Judy
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
One thing that is difficult for me is the attitude of some barefoot people that you are being abusive if you put shoes on. The attitude that any horse in any terrain with any rider and any riding can go barefoot just disturbs me. Previously on the list: There are three valid reasons that horses are shod: protection, traction, or to effect a therapeutic change necessary for the horse's health. All else is vanity. [] Protection is the most obvious reason: Simply put, if a horse's rate of foot wear exceeds his rate of foot growth, his foot must be protected in some way. If not protected, continuing the same routine, in the same environment, will cause soreness. Once sore, the owner can either lay him up while he grows out enough to protect himself with hoof wall and exfoliating sole, or shoe him and accomplish almost the same thing artificially. [] Traction is the second reason. If the horse *has* to work on bad terrain, shoes for traction may help. [] The final reason to shoe a horse is for therapeutic reasons for the horse's health. In reality, most attempts to modify a horse's way of going are not therapeutic; rather, they are an attempt to modify a particular gait to better meet an arbitrary (subjective) standard, usually related to a particular breed. (Non-therapeutic considerations are an important portion of pragmatic farriery.) In general terms, a gait may be modified by changing the way a foot leaves the ground (breakover) or its behavior off the ground (flight path). These factors are changed by the removal/application/utilization of weight and length. A gait may also be modified by changing the timing relative to opposite members; e.g., fronts to hinds. A horse will do whatever he does most efficiently if he is balanced, both fronts and hinds, in the two basic planes (anterior-posterior; medial-lateral) from the fetlock to the ground. Shoeing, Is It Necessary? © Ray Miller The question is often asked, Is shoeing necessary for my horse? The answer can be both yes and no. There are three main reasons for shoeing a horse: Protection, traction and for therapeutic reasons. One additional reason often given is gait alteration. Lets take each reason and examine it more closely. Protection: This means to protect the hoof from the environment. Most of the time this means wear to the horn/hoof wall. If you are riding your horse where the hooves are being worn down by pavement, sand, gravel or some other agent and the horse is not replacing the hoof to keep up with the wear, then you would need shoes to keep the horse from going lame. If the front hooves need shoes for this reason so do the hind hooves. Because the horse moves on the diagonal, the pairs for shoeing should be the left front/right hind, right front/left hind. In my opinion if shoeing only the front or hind pairs, the horse is being shod out of balance. The horse can be just as sore on the hind hooves, but may not show it like it will on the front. Also, many times hind end lameness will show up as front end lameness. Traction: This means to give the horse grip, better footing. This can be for hunter / jumpers, performance horses (barrel, roping, cutting, racing, etc...). Traction can be obtained with heel calks, rim shoes, polo shoes, toe grabs, heel grabs, borium or drill-tec. There are many types of traction devices. It may be the way a shoe is built that causes it to be a traction device. An example of this is a hind shoe with a trailer. The trailer becomes the traction device to slow the foot. But it must be remembered that traction devices can and do cause stress on the soft tissue and joints of the horse. In time this could lead to lameness. If using a traction device it should be able to be removed when not needed. It has been proven in research and under clinical trials that toe grabs in race horses cause a lot of the injury and lameness that we see in them. A farrier must be skilled in placement of traction devices. Therapeutic: This means to aid or help the horse that has a problem. Horses that have navicular syndrome, founder, contracted heels, arthritis, hock and stifle problems, pedal osteitis, ankylosis, tendon lameness, tendon injury, splints when green, curb, capped hock, capped elbow, spavin, ring bone, bruises, abscesses, caudal hoof pain, etc..., the list can be endless. Also, the list and names of the shoes, pads and the combination of shoes and pads can be endless. A farrier doing this type of work must have a full understanding of the mechanics of the horse. The farrier must understand the geometry and trigonometry of the horse and the shoes/pads that are being applied. All therapeutic work should be under taken with the knowledge and advice of an equine lameness veterinarian. The veterinarian and farrier must work together. __ Gait Modification / Alteration / Movement: There are many things that can be done with shoes to modify the
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
Horses don't eat fish of their own accord. Let's drop this subject and get sensible. Karen Thomas, NC Actually, Karen, whereas I agree with you mostly in that horses were given fish out of need, there is no telling what even well-fed horses will eat by choice. Just an anecdote here: I had fed my guests a very nice shrimp dinner. One of my guest did not clean his plate and left some shrimp on his plate (which I don't like because I grew up in Germany after the war - hungry at times and I simply don't like food being wasted), so I told him eat your shrimp or I will give it to Landi (my stallion). An argument ensued with my guest insisting that horses don't eat meat, fish or any such things. So we bet a bottle of really good sherry and went to find out. We presented the shrimp to Landi who polished them off in no time flat. I won a very nice bottle of sherry. Anneliese in Kentucky.
[IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I think that, as a breed, Icelandic's are a pretty unique breed and they are very special to me. However, I can't think of any single trait where I think they are sooo terribly different from other breed horses. Instead, I see that they have - in general - many minor differences/idiosyncrasies that accumulate and make them seem different overall, in a good, special way. And of course, not all individuals in this breed have all these idiosyncrasies. Simply put, I think they are horses/ponies first, Icelandic's second. Every horse, no matter what breed, needs to be managed, handled and trained for the unique individual that he/she is. Any trainer/owner/farrier/vet/rider who uses that sort of reasoning won't have any trouble working with an Icelandic. We don't need special trainers, we don't need special vets, we don't need special farriers, and we don't need special nutrition. We need GOOD trainers, GOOD vets, GOOD farriers, and GOOD nutrition... Why do I say this? Because I get involved in situations with these horses, stories that don't make it to the list. I've taken in a few rehabs/recsues - I have one more who will be here later this week, God willing, but she doesn't sound like TOO big of a challenge. I tried to get another recently, and I haven't been able to make it happen, and I'm really sick about that one. I've lost sleep over that pony that got away. So, without going into more detail than necessary, I will say that a large part of my frustration with these situations is typically because someone treated these horses as sooo different. Yes, many Icelandics are stoic...but not all are. Sina and Tivar certainly aren't, and neither is Kari. Many Icelandic's are easy keepers...but Trausti isn't and neither are some others. Many Icelandic's tolt - but some don't. (Ok, actually I don't think many literally tolt of their own choosing, but most will do some soft gait.) Many Icelandics are very brave - but some aren't so bombproof. A few have a good bit of energy - but a notable number are quiet, even lazy. Some can carry a good bit of weight - but many can't carry so much very easily. Do I primarily need to think of my special horse, Sina, as being an Icelandic - or as being a horse/pony? I want her to get the best health care, the right saddle, the best farrier care, the best nutrition that ANY horse or pony can have. I can easily think of 50 specific examples where the Icelandic's are sooo different mentality has seriously hurt a horse - sometimes even put him/her over into rehab/rescue status.I honestly can't think of many cases where treating them like horses - using GOOD horsemanship, veterinary practices, sensible training methods, dealing with the specific horse in front of you at the moment - has ever hurt a horse. Sure, any sort of rote, follow-the-book approach isn't going to work with all horses...of any breed. I hope every horse of every breed gets the care and handling that he/she deserves. Since I still have hopes of getting my hands on the rehab who just got away, I can't say too much specifically, so bear with me for speaking in generalities. Icelandic's are special to me. But they really aren't THAT different in any one single way that I can think of. I've essentially gone out of the breeding business...but what I REALLY want to do is go out of the rehab business. Sadly, I don't see that happening any time soon. PLEASE, for the sake of the horses, be careful when you jump out to claim differences in this breed that may not be real. It often sets people up to ignore the commonsense practices used with other horses/ponies. Our horses deserve the same commonsense/common knowledge treatment that other horses in good homes receive. Setting them up so people think they are so different isn't doing them any favors... Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
We presented the shrimp to Landi who polished them off in no time flat. I won a very nice bottle of sherry. Gee, I probably could have won a whole stocked wine cellar with the Sundance/mouse incident... Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Myth, Saga, Truth, Reality
Further improvements come through greater transparency. Which means... ?? If we know all the facts, without marketing hype, without embellishments and without unnecessary spin-doctoring, we can cut to the chase and really make progress in what we are attempting to do. Transparency - we really need to SEE what is important to the decisions we're trying to make. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Myth, Saga, Truth, Reality
Further improvements come through greater transparency. Which means... ?? I think the opposite of that idea would be the old get-ahead-quick phrase, If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS. I don't think there is any getting ahead quickly within a herd of horses though. Sagas, myths and tall tales may have their place in literature... but if we want to further our horsemanship skills, we need to get past the baffling BS. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
I think sometime Icelandics are mis-handled by your average trainer because they think of them as ponies. They feel they can skip steps, let them sit, miss valuable training time and quickly make up lost time by bullying/forcing them into compliance. Then the novice owner gets them home and has a difficult, scared and/or dangerous horse on their hands. I find trainers that specialize in working with Icelandics and understand what the riders in N.A. need in a trained horse have an advantage over the average trainer. They view the Icelandic as a horse first and don't look at them as little ponies that can be bullied rather than trained. I've found that a good trainer is a rare find and the ones I truly value are coincidently trainers that primarily work with Icelandic Horses. Just My Experience. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses Icelandic Sheepdogs website: www.toltallyice.com
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
I think sometime Icelandics are mis-handled by your average trainer because they think of them as ponies. They feel they can skip steps, let them sit, miss valuable training time and quickly make up lost time by bullying/forcing them into compliance. I don't want to make excuses by talking about your average trainer. Every one of us has a duty to find and demand GOOD trainers. If we can't find a GOOD trainer in our area, then maybe we have to become good trainers ourselves - ESPECIALLY those of us who breed. Then the novice owner gets them home and has a difficult, scared and/or dangerous horse on their hands. That should be no different with Icelandic's than with any other breed. If we allow it to happen - those of us who breed - then shame on us. We should take personal responsibility for getting the horses the right training AND for placing them in the right homes. Yes, I know it's not always easy, but we can make it our absolute goal. If we make excuses, we virtually guarantee failure. I've found that a good trainer is a rare find and the ones I truly value are coincidently trainers that primarily work with Icelandic Horses. My, my, my... in a country with 10,000,000 horses, the ONLY trainers you can find are the ones who work with a breed that numbers only 3000...?That's simply statistically ludicrous. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
I think sometime dressage trainers need to learn to western ride and just let the horse learn to go forward without a frame - dressage trainers usually want to immediately put their horse in a frame. Laree in NC I agree Laree. I think it's important for a newly started horse to learn to balance itself with a rider, moving freely in all it's gaits before we try to teach them to stay in a frame. Young horses held in by their faces and boxed in with seat and legs often feel trapped and will rear, crow hop or buck. A lot of inexperienced people starting horses will ask them to move forward, but if they do so briskly, will often get nervous and yank on them to slow down. Very confusing for the horse! Cherie Western North Carolina Lilja, Roka (Icelandics)and Tyra (Fjord)
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
I wonder if the fish eating is something that is done out of necessity by the horses (i.e. not enough food). Mabye those horses at the time did not need the nutrients that was in the fish. I know we free feed our horses minerals and plain salt seperatly. Anyway some days they will eat the minerals like it was a bag of carrots or something, then for days or weeks they will not touch it. They know what they need and will eat it if offered even if in is in fish form. Last week we had just purchased a 50lb container of loose mineral...we pulled up to our next barn to shoe horses and the horses came up to our truck and took off the plastic lid and chowed down on those minerals for 10 minuets. Anyway, it was an owner who did not believe in supplementing horses (I call it lazy myselfa judgement , I know) Anyway she saw that and has now changed her mind...obviously her horses needed those minerals and took them at their first oppertunity. If my only option was fish, I would offer it to them...if the Matson containers stop coming I would have to. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Nov 25, 2007 12:31 PM, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a dry lot paddock...it is mostly weeds that they do not eat with other types of stuff growing on top of our lovely rock. But we have always spread out the feed to the horses that are kept in there, its about a half acrewe want then to move around and hunt for the feed. That way they are not standing at a bucket for a half hour eating the feed and then standing there waiting till lunchtime. We kept Foss there and full feed him...now I have a IR Icelandic gelding that stays therewe tell our clients to do the same...put the feed all over and let them move around to eatsimulate as much as possible to what they wouyld do naturally in the wild. Skye, our smallest track is in a 75 x 110 foot area, this is where Raven's pony's go when she comes here, the oval in the middle is about 85 x 55 leaving about 12-16 feet on 3 sides, one side is narrower, maybe only 8 feet at the narrowest spot... she puts Huginn in the middle for grass a couple hours at a time, leaves the mini on the outside.. She was so excited to see how much they moved and moved and moved on the track... She also had them in there a few times without the track.. they stood at the fence staring at us or the other horses... so, the change was very obvious for both of us with two different herds, very interesting stuff... The narrow area, kind of moves them through faster... Wider areas are for grazing, socializing, I have a hill in there too... I know that they are mentally stimulated this way... I have always spread hay out too... but this method of keeping my horses has changed me forever... i will never go back to the old way of pasturing horses... Jamie Jackson has a book out, Pasture Paradise - I have not read it, I am sure he has a whole lot more to say about this then I can on a list... I just know that Psychologically, it keeps them moving and moving more then when they had access to this small area with no Oval in the middle... It really is amazing... I am trying to figure out how to put my round pen in there, I want it to be at least 60 feet... I might have to move the outside fence out in a couple places, to accomodate a Round pen... then I will bring in more gravel and some sand for good footing... I am still contemplating this procedure... I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
The attitude that any horse in any terrain with any rider and any riding can go barefoot just disturbs me. Previously on the list: There are three valid reasons that horses are shod: protection, traction, or to effect a therapeutic change necessary for the horse's health. All else is vanity. Well, I can answer No, No, and No to all the needs above... and I usually ride a lot of miles barefoot... this summer was limited riding till this fall, then I rode a great deal... but not my usual 3-6 days a week, I had to work.. darn... No, if they need protection I put on boa's, very rarely does this happen.. once this summer at that endurance ride, it was impromptu and Jewel had been living on wet land for 2 weeks, then stood on WET Gravel at the Picket line for 2 days, his feet were SOFT, 13 miles on gravel was to much for him with wet feet... I had to put boots on him after about 5 miles at a gait/trot/canter... the rest of the year he was fine, no boots... I match our riding to his foot condition, or put on boots, Traction... Ya know, I use to ride in shoes... but after about 10 years riding barefoot, we bought Duke, with shoes on... oh my, I had NO TRACTION, I hate shoes for trailriding.. hate, hate, hate them... I am careful about not trimming if they have a few surface chips and it is muddy on the trails, amazing how those chips can give you GREAT TRACTION... my horses just seem to be able to feel the ground better... I can not exactly describe it.. It is just safer for me, in my opinion... No, I don't need to use shoes for any kind of therapy... I did use the Natural Balance shoes once for Dan's Paso Fino, when we had her... that is one of the shoes I would use if I felt I had to again, however, I think had we found a boot that would have worked better on her, and more are out now then we had options for then, we never would have gone to the natural balance shoes, I hate growing out nail holes for one thing... she was sore cause of metabolic reasons... possibly cushings... I got that balanced and she was fine... the healthier she got, the HOTTER she got, LOL... She went back to a previous owner when it became clear that Dan and she were not a good match... -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
Well...she seems to be saying all the right things, but those horses are still bucking when she's on them. yes...they are bucking...cuz when she FIRST got them into her training...they were problem horses. the first part of the video...shows the way they were when she got them. the last part of the video...shows the horses AFTER she worked with them. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 04:51:00PM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: I think sometime Icelandics are mis-handled by your average trainer because they think of them as ponies. They feel they can skip steps, let them sit, miss valuable training time and quickly make up lost time by bullying/forcing them into compliance. i think that many ponies are mishandled that way, icelandic or not. it's a real problem, esp. for those who end up as kids' mounts. --vicka
[IceHorses] Please watch the quotes!
For the record, I most certainly did NOT say what was clipped below. If you are going to use a snippet, PLEASE be careful that you attribute it to the person who actually said it. I don't make excuses for the average trainer. On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 04:51:00PM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: I think sometime Icelandics are mis-handled by your average trainer Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
i think that many ponies are mishandled that way, icelandic or not. it's a real problem, esp. for those who end up as kids' mounts. Exactly Vicka! Too many of your typical trainers just bully ponies rather than train them. No doubt the reason so many ponies have reputations for bad attitudes, they were never really trained, just forced/bullied into compliance. Cheryl Sand Creek Icelandics Icelandic Horses Icelandic Sheepdogs website: www.toltallyice.com
[IceHorses] No Fish Oil
Years ago, while hanging out in the cafeteria at U.C. Davis Vet Hospital, I met a professor from the animal nutrition department. I described the wonderful diet I had put my aging cat on and mentioned the addition of flax oil. She said something like well, flax oil is close to useless for a cat, it can't digest it well or utilize it -- give flax oil to your horses and give fish oil to cats. I complained about what fish oil products were available for cats and she said to just puncture one of the capsules of high quality salmon oil, not flavored, that I take, and squeeze it over the cat's food twice a week. Remember, no fish oil for horses -- a big waste of oil, and useless. I said I had no horses, but thanked her for the advice. I had not yet seen an Icelandic horse. Nancy in Sonoma,Ca.
RE: [IceHorses] No Fish Oil
Years ago, while hanging out in the cafeteria at U.C. Davis Vet Hospital, I met a professor from the animal nutrition department. I described the wonderful diet I had put my aging cat on and mentioned the addition of flax oil. She said something like well, flax oil is close to useless for a cat, it can't digest it well or utilize it -- give flax oil to your horses and give fish oil to cats. ... I had not yet seen an Icelandic horse. That's pretty ironic, isn't it, in light of this thread? But, there are lots of old folk remedies (for humans and for animals) that are either useless or downright harmful. Some may work, but I don't lightly buy into folk remedies without doing a lot of checking first. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] barn sour
--- Lorraine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dagur has a serious barn sour issue. Do you think sending to a trainer would help? My Whisper has some serious issues as well. And she can be intimidating and do scary things that she knows I will back down from. In my mare's case, it is stubborness and she needs a firm hand in making her go out. Yes, that is what I said - MAKING. Before anyone pipes in and flames me, keep in mind I know this mare, have known her since birth, and she can be willful. My neighbor has the experience, seat, and determination to MAKE her go, and I will have her do it soon. As for Dagur, what you need is a trainer to come to YOUR place and make him go out. Then give you lessons on leaving YOUR place. His issues are going to be strongest leaving his own barn, so that is where the lessons need to be. Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
In a message dated 11/25/2007 1:20:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Different in a different way. My two Icelandic horses I have owned have been different from other horses in that they accept what you do to them as a matter of fact. Try to train an appaloosa for instance. I am 65 years old and have had quite a few breeds in my days over forty years of horses. The breed I mostly had over the years was a QH and they don't break as easily as you would think. I cannot remember one of the horses that I have ground broke stand for the saddle and just accept the girth as the Icelandic's do. I have been amazed that they just let you dress them and go about with this stuff on as if it was there from birth. I am so impressed with the two I have worked with I think they are amazing. My Willie for instance. I decided to try a blanket one day and he just stood there and let me put it on him and that was that. Same with the circingle and then the saddle. Oh hum. This past week the trainer that he is with put the full harness on him and drove him around the arena. No issues. To me this is not normal horse stuff. I have also seen that they bond with the owners and don't really like another person to handle them particularly. This is why my horse is away getting trained he would do anything for me but he needed to learn other things I don't know how to do. Anyone else have a horse this easy or is it just mine? Sylvia **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [IceHorses] Myth, Saga, Truth, Reality
Further improvements come through greater transparency. If we know all the facts... we can cut to the chase and really make progress in what we are attempting to do. Yes, I think that's right. If we have to spend time figuring out what's myth, what's truth, it wastes valuable time that could be spend otherwise. In our case, I think the transparency refers to open communication between Iceland and us. Is it advantageous for Iceland to pass on the myths? Not to the horse. In the case of the horses eating fish, yes, it has been done. I think someone made a choice to say that it wasn't done, that it was only a saga. Why? I don't know. If we can't have transparency between Iceland and us, we have to keep in mind to always ask why when presented with a statement such as Icelandic Horses eat fish, or that Icelandic Horses are not ponies, or that they need special icelandic saddles, etc. In the case of the horse eating fish, we have to search out the reason why they did so, for things to make sense and progress from there. Is it for a specific reason? Is that reason valid for us? If not, we can just toss it out, and move on. Same with the pony deal, or the icelandic saddle or noseband situation. If we use our common sense, questioning, and our increasing knowledge of horses and horsemanship, we will be able to wade thru the myths and come to a place of being a benefit to our horses. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Myth, Saga, Truth, Reality
If we have to spend time figuring out what's myth, what's truth, it wastes valuable time that could be spend otherwise. One of my biggest beefs along those lines is the myth that says that Icelandic lab tests are different in many ways. Has anyone ever shown that conclusively? I don't think so. In fact, a friend of mine is a vet and pulls blood on her three Icelandics twice a year. She's never found any significant differences in the levels than you'd expect to find in...dare I say it...normal horses! One of her horses got sick last year and had to go to the vet school for intensive testing and observation. Some of his blood work was off - but only off as you would have expected a horse with his symptoms. Sure, there will be cases where Icelandic blood tests are different...but maybe it means the horse has a genuine medical condition that needs attention? Why not just assume that there's a real warning flag right from the get go? If for some reason he happens to be a horse with an odd reading that is normal for him, they'll figure that out soon enough. But, if the owner or vet wastes time addressing symptoms, believing Icelandics are different they could miss a critical diagnosis. Why waste the time? Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
Sylvia, You and I have had exactly the same experience. I confess I only know a handful of Icelandics and one of our two is only 3/4, but I have had 44 years with other breeds and none of them were as easy as these three Icelandics I know. Hunter, a particularly reactive horse, knocked me down the first time I went to put a blanket on him. Who would have expected that kind of reaction from a nine year old gelding? Yrsa's introduction to a blanket, a HUGE horse-sized, hang on the floor at her sides blanket, was a yawn. They certainly have had some horsey reactions to a couple of things, but very low on the drama meter as compared to the ex-race horses I used to buy. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
your kind are eternally youngIt's the barrels of fish she's been known to eat - or perhaps the salt they're packed in. Nancy pass the fish Sturm
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses the eating of eggs
Well it wasn't my sainted great grandfather who was the first man to try eating an egg. He was a crusty old buzzard, a self-taught horse and buggy doctor. He claimed he wasn't eating anything that came out of the rear end of a chicken - only his language was a little more graphic. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
A friend of mine and I have talked in the past about how on earth did early humans learn what foods are good, which are bad, etc... Her favorite question is always, What on earth ever prompted the first person to try eating an EGG, knowing where they come from? What was he thinking? She goes on to say she's sure a guy discovered that one... Karen Thomas, NC in the book Chesapeake, the writer, i forget his name, he also wrote Hawaii and Poland, says native americans learned to eat seafood by watching birds. birds would dive down and pick up oysters and fly above the rocks and drop them to bust open on the rocks and then fight over them and when they didnt fall over dead from poisoning the indians would go hmmm and give it a try. he said the native americans in the Chesapeake area considered blue crabs to be a gift from god. thats blue crab btw, not that fishy smelling rotten stuff that comes from alaska... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
If you want to get literal, I'm sure the Donner Party consumed some great nutrients in their infamous winter during the 1840's...but do we want to play THAT into a modern-day nutritional trend? Hey, their diet was even organic! What the Donner Party did was a matter of simple survival too... Horses don't eat fish of their own accord. the donner party were on the atkins diet. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
I am gonna put shoes on for their gait. There is a reason Jolly lost her gait and I am sure it is because of her shoes. She had shoes on her whole life. So I will put them on in May and take them off in November. We will see what happens. I have my acreage divided into many little pastures (6) and they are let out in the morning and brought in in the late afternoon. During that time they come and go as they please up and down the path to the particular pasture. They are very happy! I love the idea also and think it would be great if you had lots of acreage and lots of $$$ for the gravel.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
Not that you are either middle-aged, or menopausal, Janice. I'm sure your breed doesn't have menopause, and your kind are eternally young, right? ;) it only happens if i dont get a trace clip so i can vent. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Young Patient Trainer
shows the way they were when she got them I still think somehting is missing with the ground work.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
My Willie for instance. I decided to try a blanket one day and he just stood there and let me put it on him Same with the circingle and then the saddle. Anyone else have a horse this easy or is it just mine? Willie's an easy horse. Charm will be fairly easy, tho maybe not as easy as Willie. Vinur was as easy as Willie. Some Icelandics are not as easy to start. It may have to do with temperment (whether by nature they are calm / quiet types, middle of the road types, or suspicious / flinchy / nervous types). Or what type of relationship they have with their trainer. Or how much exposure they've had to general training prior to saddle training. Or their conformation / general health. If a horse has feet that bother him, he's probably not going to be happy having a person on his back, or if he has the weaker-type back conformation, or teeth problems, etc. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] No Fish Oil
On Nov 25, 2007 4:35 PM, Nancy Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Years ago, while hanging out in the cafeteria at U.C. Davis Vet Hospital, there are only six degrees of separation right... i worked for a year for the City of Davis California. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] barn sour
Do you have a trainer in your area who might come help you at your place, with you riding? In a lot of cases, I think that works better than sending a horse off to a trainer, but without knowing your horses, it would be hard to say. What do you think? That sounds like a good idea. I could find out. I was out with my girlfriend and her donkey and Dagur was sore. He is usually great with another horse. Lorraine Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icelandic horses the eating of eggs
well, in the interest of somehow gleaning something meaningful out of this topic... i always thought when horses would seem insistent on eating something weird--- chewing wood, tree bark, feces, sand, clay, they NEEDED something, salt most likely, people say their horses quit eating feces or chewing wood after having vit B i think it is... one time jaspar started eating dirt even tho i was giving him minerals free choice and i changed his minerals and he quit. so maybe if you give the wrong kind of minerals... i give mine gro strong by alliance loose minerals and a salt block. just for fun i bought a little persimmon flavored mineral block at the feed store for deer plots and it was the size of a brick and no one licked it and nasi would pick it up and run around with it and drop it until it finally broke into pieces. so either they dont like persimmon flavored salt or it was just too weird for my horses, and i bought a feed thru fluy control block and it was covered in a thick coat of hardened molasses and my horses ate it in two days, just gnawed off huge chunks. it worried me that might be getting too much fly control but it musta been ok. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics are not THAT different
I've been listening to this discussion with interest. Most of my experience has been with ponies. As a child I had a silver dapple welsh pony that always seemed to be 10 steps ahead of me if I let her. Her brain was engaged at ALL times. She taught me a lot. . Peppy (a miniature) is probably the brightest animal I've met. He's hotter than a firecracker and has a bit of a temper, simply because he gets frustrated with the world...because we sometimes don't understand himor just don't do what he wants. I have found Icelandics to be just as intelligentbut kinder somehow...interested in the world...always wanting to participate in whatever game comes next...always expressive...and they expect that expressiveness to be respected. It has occurred to me that if they are trained by a trainer that is not interested in their input...or their 'expressiveness'.look out. I could see where some anger might surface. Oh...they'll put up with crap...but only for so long. Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic horses do not go fishing on their own accord!
the donner party were on the atkins diet. Janice AHHH!! That is the funniest-in-a-black-humor-way thing I've heard in a long time! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: bolting/eating fish
On 25/11/2007, Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and just for your information, my daughter left her laptop and it has a builtin webcam and i was trying to video my nekkid bosoms for youtube but i couldnt get my face and my knees in all in one screen. janice Dear Jesus, thank you for putting Janice's knees and face so far apart Wanda
