Re: [IceHorses] Jane Savoie / Use of the Aids
Here is a video by Jane Savoie, on the Use of the Aids: http://icehorses.blogspot.com/2008/04/use-of-aids.html I'm on her mailing list, and I bought the Happy Horse set of videos recently. I've been pleased with the ones I've seen. This is from one of the videos - there are 22 in the set. She's a great teacher, really gifted at explaining things. I bought her Cross Train Your Horse books when they first came out - maybe 10 years ago? They are great and I really recommend the first book. The book is aimed at teaching a little practical dressage for horses not intended to be dressage horses. It's amazing that she wrote a whole book about dressage (for non-believers like Janice!) and never got to shoulder in - I think she didn't get to that until the second book. Low level dressage is really simply about good riding, and good communication - it's not about fancy moves at all. I know that a lot of people have the idea that dressage is all about heavy rein contact, but how she teaches is similar to how I started learning - it doesn't HAVE to be about heavy contact, and it probably shouldn't be. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Full moon this weekend...
You think it might help? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] sick horses
Just talked to the vet and Fafnir's temp is down to 101 and he is eating. He is much brighter and we will see how he is in the morning. Still don't know what is wrong with him but it is not a threat to our herd. Great news! Great that he's better AND great that it's apparently not a threat to the herd. Which Fafnir is this - I was wondering if I might know a relative of his...? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: My pretty princess pony
I'm in exactly the same boat. I have ignored my asthma because I was too busy working as a doctor! HA! That makes me feel better, that I'm not the only one who's been in denial. This has been a rough winter/spring, enough that I've decided to wake up and do something about it. I haven't been able to brush horses, feed hay, or clean stalls without wheezing or having a coughing fit for weeks now. I think it's not really this bad long-term - I do think I've gotten into what my doctor calls post infection asthma after the flu and pneumonia back in January. Still, even before all that, I was wheezing some and coughing more than I should, and I've never smoked, and Cary hasn't smoked in about 25 years. I'm taking a round of Prednisone this week, hopefully to break the cycle, and I've been using the once-daily, preventive inhaler religiously for over a week, and will keep it up. I can't expect Cary to take care of all of these horses for me - he's been a trooper the past few weeks, but I've got to get back being more involved - before I go nuts! I have to have more horsey time than I've been getting lately. All in all, I can tell that the treatments are helping, so maybe I'll break the worst of the cycle soon. Like you, I don't want to end up with some variation of COPD long-term - my mom never smoked, but her untreated asthma has left her with serious breathing problems. I hope to learn from her mistake... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Picture link: Cali session #2; Brunka under sadle
AWESOME Karen!! but you shouldnt ride in sneakers :) Janice Well, if you want to get picky, with all the pollen out and all the shedding horses, and with me taking meds for asthma, I probably shouldn't be out riding at all. But, Brunka's pretty chilled, and Cali needed some company...and I'm darned nearly stir-crazy from riding so little! The sneakers have elastic instead of strings and would come off easily, and I was using caged stirrups...and I was in the little ring. And it was ten-year-old Brunka, not a baby. Is that ok, mom? :) The meds must be kicking in. I feel the best today that I've felt in weeks Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icetolt
I do not believe that a few minutes - 5 minutes loose, 5 minutes see the ice with a rider, 5 minutes competing (with another 5 minutes if the horse is in a final) once a year or less will cause long term dmage in a fit horse. I chased Sophie across the kitchen a few weeks ago...one leap...and my knee was buggeredstill is... Yeah, if you think of it that way, I think I was probably airborne less than a second that fateful day back in May 2002...and then I didn't walk at all for five days, couldn't walk without a walker for 3-4 weeks, wore a back brace for 3 months, and had a crippling sciatic injury for almost two years... BUT luckily, I finally got back pretty much to normal. It could easily been VERY different, and it all happened in a split second. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Big Ball-now navicular
The vet said that if I was going to try to ride him I could get some special shoes that are different than the egg-bar but he suggested just letting him retire. I don't have any experience with navicular, but I'm sorry to hear about your horse's pain. I have a friend with a navicular horse who has tried just about everything to get the horse sound. Technically, her horse has a navicular cyst, which I guess is different from true navicular syndrome. It took a lot of trial and error to get the horse comfortable, but even so, she really can't ride her much. She tried barefoot - which the mare had been for many years prior - and several kinds of shoes and trims. She probably has the vet lameness vet in the area and definitely the best farrier, but sometimes there just isn't much we can do except make them comfortable. They finally found a way to shoe her that helps her comfort for her daily life. I sure don't want to make you give up, but on the other hand, it's easy to feel like you're screwing something up, when you're really doing all you can do. Worry about the horse's comfort first, and if you keep that as your primary focus, maybe you can eventually find a way to ride him...if not, you'll know you did all you could for his happiness, and that's the most important thing of all. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A new friend for Svort/now new homes
Do you know, I make it a practice not to bother horses when they are eating. I allow that to be a time just for them and their food. I think that's best too. Horses do a lot for us, but I think they deserve certain times to be left alone, and eating should be one of those times. If I have a horse with special feeding needs such that it takes him longer to eat, I'll separate him/her from the herd at feeding time (in a stall, private paddock, etc.) until he/she can finish undisturbed. I don't like my horses bullying each other TOO MUCH at meal time, but I don't like to interfere with them either. They have certain eating rituals just like we do, and I tend to leave them alone to be horses at meal time. Overall, I think we should leave them alone to eat, either in the herd with their buddies if they are just sharing hay, or totally separately, if everyone isn't getting the same rations. It's much easier if the horses have free access to pasture and/or hay, with little-to-no grain/pellets - there's no strict mealtime other than the first few minutes when the hay is just put out and is a novelty. Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Finally tried my Sensation on an endurance ride!!!
By Flora of the treelesssaddle list: Flora has been on the treeless list for a good while, and she seems pretty credible. She seems to be a pretty well-rounded horseperson, having experience in lots of sports and disciplines. She also foxhunts in another Sensation. Foxhunting is a very tradition-bound sport, and her hunt-club apparently dresses to the nines in full tradition. She says that people rarely notice that she's foxhunting in a treeless saddle, but that no one really cares either. She's also said that at the endurance rides she attends (in VA, the Carolinas, Georgia mainly I think...?) she sees as many treeless saddles as treed ones, and that treeless saddles continue to gain popularity in the sport in her region. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT - the puppy is getting bigger
oh my gosh he is cute as the dickens!! Janice Isn't he? I want one like him too. And didn't you love the expression on the hubby's face? Great pictures. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] sick horses
I brought in the first guy as he didn't have much gut sound and called the vet. Also brought in the other guy for the vet to look at - mostly he was just too subdued for my liking. The one horse has an impaction but seems somewhat better. The other horse has a temp of 105.2 which is really scary as he has no cough, no runny nose - basically no other symptoms - we drew blood, gave him banamine and penicillin - I am not really feeling good about this horse so your thoughts for both of them would be appreciated. I sure hope they are ok, Robyn. Please keep us updated. My yahoo mails have been lagging, so I'm sorry if this is late. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Another Success Story - Dennis Reis
I came away from the expo with mixed feelings, too. Good points are that none of his horses or students horses are ridden with a bit and there was lots of bridleless riding. His horses and his students horses seemed to be willing, happy workers. He is a round pen , join up kind of trainer. That's funny, because that wasn't my impression of him at all. Now, mind you, I haven't had RFD-TV in a couple of years - our valued shade trees kept growing over our satellite dish, to the point that we were going to have to cut a big tree to get reliable signal, so we switched to cable. I used to watch him occasionally, and he intrigued me - but it might have been just the subject matter he was covering at the time. During the episodes I watched, I don't remember him using a round-pen at all - maybe he did, but it wasn't THE focus like it seems to be with Monty Roberts. What I DO remember was that he was one of the few natural horsemen type clinicians I'd seen that seemed to have a genuine understanding of dressage, at least enough to explain some things clearly, and how to apply NH to the sport. This was about the time that Linda Parelli was starting to talk about Fluidity, but for a good ten years prior, I'd been working with Shirley as we both delved into NH, trying to figure out ways to apply it to dressage - she is a long-time student of serious dressage, more classical in intent, although she has competed to some pretty serious levels in the past. Up until 5-8 years ago, we were pretty much doing our own thing trying to blend NH and dressage - Shirley doing much of the blending of course, and me trying to keep up as I was learning the basics of both. One Dennis Reis episode I saw that knocked my socks off - and I REALLY wish I had it on video - was where he explained SO clearly the difference between leg yields and shoulder-ins. He demonstrated the difference himself (no horse), by showing the difference in the way his body was bent compared to the way he was looking, and I did the same while I watched him do it. If ever I had any doubts that shoulder-in is indeed much more difficult than leg-yields, going through the motions myself (the best a two-legged creature can) really made the point that books and demos had never truly conveyed to me. I think about that episode often now, since so many Icelander trainers talk about shoulder-in to get tolt, especially when what I see them doing is RARELY really shoulder-in, and is usually some sort of bastardized leg-yield/shoulder-in/yanking-around being done in very poor form. I think this horse could have been better turned around with clicker training/ Parelli, etc, but that would have taken too long for it to be good theater. Good theater - that's what it boils down to too often isn't it?Of course, I shouldn't lecture on this subject. The other thing I remember about Dennis Reis is that he is certainly one who sure needs a dash of theater! That's one reason I was never sure how much I liked him. And I'm pretty serious about this stuff - I can't really imagine how he ever developed the following he has developed. So, maybe he DID use a round pen a lot and maybe I just slept through those parts! Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Weird question, sorta off topic
Has anyone ever tried to dye sheepskin themselves? I have an Equine Comfort natural/cream colored sheepskin correction pad and the color looks horrible on many of my horses. I like the pad, but I don't use it much. I have a similar black sheepskin Mattes pad that looks much nicer, but it doesn't have the correction pockets that I like, where you can insert foams of varying thicknesses. I wonder if standard Rit fabric dye would work...? I'd sure hate to ruin it. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] pure love
Geldings do tend to need to play...much more so than the mares. At least in my little herd.. But then I've never raised a fillyonly boys.. I think when they are very young, they play close to equally hard, at least up until they are about six months to a year. Then, the boys continue to play, as the girls minds move onto grownup and sedate activities. And, I never noticed the huge disparity in playing between genders until I got Icelandic's. Probably geldings/stallions are slightly more playful in all breeds, but honestly, I think, in general, Icelandic geldings are the most playful of any subgroup of horses I've ever encountered...except for Buck, the mini-mule! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icetolt
Look at showjumpers and eventers who are ridden every weekend jumping in mud or on grass with studs in. Is that any different, other than the fact that of course showjumpers and eventers spend a whole lot more time doing it??? Just because other disciplines have sins of their own is no reason to overlook the sins within our own breed...and there's certainly no joy for me in finding degrees of bad. I think this list is about finding the optimal ways to do things, not to be satisfied with being best than the very worst examples. BTW, we took hunter lessons for several years, with my daughter showing in hunter classes. If the weather was iffy - with mud or wet grass - we simply didn't jump. Our horses were barefoot even back then, so studs weren't an option - nor did we need them. We worked on other things when the conditions weren't ideal - flat work, groundwork, desensitizing activities, leisurely trail rides, cleaned tack, whatever. We also elected for her not to show in one particular arena once simply because we felt the footing was way too deep. There's room for sensible horsemanship practices in virtually every discipline or sport, if people choose to look for ways. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A new friend for Svort/now new homes
Tosca stays out with her band of horses 24/7, but Hunter, part of the same group, comes in for the night to a large pen and shelter. He requires supplemental feeding or he gets too thin, so I go up in the late afternoon and put him up with his feed, then go back again in the morning and feed him again. Then about 7:30 the barn girl turns him out for grass and hay. He just needs a different diet from his buddies. That sounds like what we're doing with 28-year-old Thunder now. He's always been a moderately easy keeper, out 24x7 with the herd, but no more. His normal pasture is adjacent to my grassy riding ring, so every night we put him in the ring, where he can take his own sweet time eating his senior feed, and can eat all the lush grass he can hold overnight. During the day, he's back out with his senior buddies, Joe and Holly. There's grass in their pasture too, plus some supplemental hay, but he seems to be doing better with the extra grass and plenty of relaxed time. He's still on the thin side compared to where he used to be, but not the bone-rack he was a few weeks ago. BTW, I suspect that Thunder has Cushing's now - I think most older horses eventually get it - but I still have him on lush grass. I know that's counter to the going wisdom, but this worked well with Sundance in his final couple of years, and he never re-foundered. I think there's a point with Cushing's where the tendency to lose weight outdoes the risk for laminitis. I think Thunder has passed that point now - I have to keep weight on him somehow. I hope he doesn't founder, but frankly, at this point, it's a risk I'm willing to take. I hate for him to waste away like he was doing, and if he should founder, I'll put him down, and know he went out happy until the end. I'm not recommending this to everyone, but I have a strong gut feeling this is the right thing to do for Thunder. I want him as happy and healthy as possible during his final days. Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Another Success Story - Dennis Reis
From what I understood from others that have seen him in the past is that he has definitely improved in the showmanship aspect of his presentation. They said he used to be very boring but he was very charismatic when I saw him - wonder where he went to learn that. I don't have a clue. Since I wrote that first post, I've been thinking about that very thing...maybe there's a niche that Janice could fill? :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
wow...i think the person stated in the vet world. the vet that you may be referring to is not stupid, IMHO..she is a very bright woman. Raven, assuming for a minute that you and Janice ARE talking about the same vet - the one that I have in mind, and the same one that Mic named... how can you call someone who advises breeders not to check in on their pregnant mares brilliant? Even the soundest, best mares can having issues with individual pregnancies that won't result in breeding problems being passed onto their offspring - like an incorrectly presented foal that can possibly be turned before delivering. Maiden mares can have minor problems with their first deliveries. Human intervention can save many of those mares and foals. She once wrote to me that natural selection should take care of these issues - it's in one of the list archives. If a mare has a problem that is truly genetic that means she shouldn't be bred again, it's quite possible to save her life and never breed her again - should she really have to die a painful death just in the name of tradition? I think that's pretty barbaric and sadistic in this day and age -anything but brilliant. The more obvious answer is simply never breed the mare again if there's a real problem. Mares can be perfect riding horses and there's no reason that a mare that's not suitable for breeding can't be a lovely and useful horse. I could never live with myself if one of my mares died a painful death that I might have easily prevented, or if a foal died due to my unwillingness to get out of my warm bed to go out and check on them. I've never heard of another person who claims to be a vet making such cold remarks. A brilliant vet - no, even normal, caring horse-owner with decent intelligence - should know that owning a less-than-breeding quality GELDING shouldn't affect a breeder's reputation for breeding. Yet, this person told me that having Tivar on my property - an ideal Icelandic in every way except for his gait limitations - was adversely affecting my reputation as a breeder, and that I should be ashamed to admit that I had him. That's also in list archives, and I'm sure many people remember these and other exchanges. She went on to say that Tivar should be eaten since tolt is not in his repertoire. I have a TOTALLY opposite motto - my motto is the same as some good dog breeders adopt - if you don't rescue, don't breed. In my case, I literally try to rehab as much as rescue, but I'm very honored to have briefly owned Tivar. He's an Icelandic for all of us to be proud of, even if his gaits aren't perfect. There's more that makes this breed special than mere gaits - but even so, I do try only to breed horses with ideal gaits. By the way, I never noticed any of my horses catching Tivar's three-gaitedness. Janice, has owning him ruined your other nicely gaited horses? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icetolt
I went to the iceshow in VT last month and I have to admit, I was horrified. I went because I just needed to see for myself. I'm not one to get overly upset by things but I felt what I witnessed was cruel. One stallion's legs went out right under him and he fell on his side. The rider got back on and continued. The stallion was clearly shaken and every time he passed that spot where he fell, he slowed right down. Many of the horses did some sliding and were trying hard to step carefully. The arena was also very small but that didn't stop them from trying to show the flying pace. Thanks for the report, sad as it is. It's not surprising though - it's simply physics. I don't know if anyone remembers a link I sent in a few months ago, of a show I found on that Icelandic online TV channel - I'm not sure I can still find it. One horse slipped badly and fell, and the crowd roared in laughter. What a difference in cultures... We mostly talk about the long-term damage possible from riding fast and hard on slippery, hard surfaces, but you're right - there are certainly very real short-term (immediate) risks too. How can anyone defend that? The trainers riding were all the well known ones that are living here in the states now. I'm sure many of you can figure out who they are. All I can say is, the studs clearly were not enough and these horses were forced to perform in a situation they were NOT comfortable with. I left the show feeling badly with a lot less respect to the riders/trainers. I remember that it was Sigrun and her American husband, Jason, who seemed to be sponsoring it, so I assume they were also riding. I assume Gudmar too...? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Another Success Story - Dennis Reis
See? that stuff so mystifies and baffles me and seems so complicated and unrelated to what I actually DO that I tend to tune out and ignore it, so thats probably why he did not appeal to me. And Janice, that always seems odd to me when you say that, and I've heard you say it before. Why do you feel it's so unrelated to what you do? I'm serious, very curious. After all, you wanted to teach your horse to do the Spanish Walk, right? And you were very interested in having Shirley show you how to get Tivar to sidepass, right? (She's generally not the biggest fan of sidepass per se...) You do like to have horses trained that you can open gates on the trail, without having to dismount, right? And you were interested in the stuff that Liz showed for honing gaits...? That's exactly why I was vaguely interested in Dennis Reis - but, like Laree, I'm not sure I got an accurate impression of what he's really about. He is one of the few who seemed at that time able to blend the worlds. I've never wanted to compete in dressage, but the communication, the finesse required for the sport has always fascinated and astounded me...but I don't have the patience or interest to pursue it. I see it as VERY applicable to my world though, the lower ends. Some knowledge of the progression of the training required, the biomechanics behind the correct training - it all adds up to help me train my horses for trail - albeit using only a very low-end of dressage - but it also helps me make informed decisions about the long-term soundness implications of certain training practices being hawked by some unscrupulous trainers... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandics in OZ
Any thoughts on the gait he's doing in this picture? She labeled it as his next gear. Looks flat walk or running walk to me - along with foxtrot, I think that's the real official gait of the Icelandic horse - HA! He looks nice and relaxed. What is that - a hackamore over a rope halter? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Icetolt
People put protective boots on Icelandic's when they are running down a straight track, lest the horse cut his leg off, and all the yelling and screaming about *protecting* the horse when the weight of protective boots is challenged. So... why would the same people take the chance of lameness issues by riding on ice? It just doesn't make sense. Boy, Judy, that IS an inconsistency, one I'd never thought of. Of course, we know the real reason - the weighted bell boots aren't for protection but for gait manipulation...In other words, they are just for glitz too, just like ice tolts. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Asking for Gait
For a pacey horse that you would like to have fox trot, you would do something different than asking the square horse to fox trot, and also different than asking the naturally gaited fox trotter to fox trot. Exactly. When we start the young horses under saddle, we let them pick the next gait up from walk. If that's foxtrot, fine. If it's running walk or flat walk, fine. If it's saddle rack, fine. If it's trot, fine too - although we haven't started one to pick trot lately - can't remember starting an Icelandic who didn't offer one of the soft gaits from the get go, but we've been focusing on breeding horses. If the young horse were not to have much of a range of gait in his repertoire, that's fine too...if other gaits come later, that's just icing. What we do when we let the horse pics his choice of gait, we just sit quietly, trying to be balanced and go with his motion, basically staying out of his way. When you do that, and you're pretty sure your saddle fits as well as possible, and you're pretty sure you're using a suitable mild bit, or no bit, you've taken care of the horse's teeth, and his hoofs are trimmed in balance, you can pretty much relax and let the horse show you what he's naturally got. It really takes the mystery out of gait training. No special training required. :) I've also learned to take a stab at conformation analysis as taught by Lee Ziegler and Liz Graves, and Liz has since marked up and analyzed most of my horses. Not surprisingly, what Liz saw in their conformations was always very similar to what we'd actually seen the horses do - some of the horses have ranges of gaits so the conformation analysis is never 100% precise, but she's always been very much in the range we've seen...and she's marked them all before seeing them ridden. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A Woman Rider's Seat
This problem is that the average measurement between seat bones on a male pelvis is 100 mm, whereas the average female seat bones are 130 mm apart. I wonder how he got those numbers, and if they are pretty representative? That would equal about 3 7/8 spacing for a man, and about 5 1/8 for a woman. I'm not sure I know anyone well enough that I want poking around on my expanding derriere to measure mine - that I can trust not to laugh anyway... I wonder how wide the average horse's spinous processes are? Most of the rider's weight is typically on the seatbones - probably a good reminder of how important it is to get the saddle centered on the horse's back and to sit centered. It's also interesting to think that only in recent years (the last five, possibly ten) that we've been seeing gullet channels in treed saddles even close to that wide, yet we've always been told a major purpose of a treed saddle is to protect the horse's spine. Many new saddles still are much narrower than that in the gullet channel. I wonder if we look at it that way, if treeless saddles might actually provide more spinal protectionassuming of course, that the rider sits in a centered way, centered over the spine...? I need to ponder this a while and make some more observations on my horses. Wonder if I can even find the full width of the spinous processes on my well protected backs... Most Icelandic's - not all - seem to have nicely padded backs naturallyeither padded with fat or muscle or both. Even most out of shape horses seem to have some muscle padding, just via their natural conformation. I'm not convinced that there's much justification for picking a treed saddle over a treeless on that argument alone, especially when you can add a nice channel pad for extra insurance. Once you move to a treeless saddle, the width of the seat bones when considering rider comfort tends to be a non-issue, or so I've seen. What becomes the bigger issue for rider comfort is the feeling of the treeless having a twist or not - a little something in the center of the seat to boost the crotch up a tad, so that the hips don't feel totally spread out - that's REALLY important on the super-tankers, like Falki and Sina. That's why the Sensations are our preference for rider comfort - they have the best feeling of twist that any of the saddle we've tried offer, and the horses really like them.The Sensations also have that independent-panel design, that isolates any pressure on one side of the saddle from the other, whereas the single piece designs tend to pull down onto the center of the spine if the pressure is too one-sided. I liked the BMSS, but man, it killed me to ride it or the no-twist Barefoot on wide old Falki. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Little Ball
I took a little video of Isak and Landi playing with a little Walmart SpongeBob ball. Should I upload that to YouTube? yes... Wanda My poor little boys... all they get is a tiny little $0.99 Sponge Bob ball from Wal-mart. And a tiny shakey video from a really bad angle, with no cool background music or anything ... Poor little guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE5UMjjh1io Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] pure love
They were pug, chihuaha and lahsa apso mix. I thought that was quite an interesting mix of breeds. That sounds like my kind of dog - I want one! Good thing you're across the continent. Cary says five is our limit. But, then Cary says a lot of stuff... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] pure love
And how does it work with horses? I have a mare and a gelding. I'm thinking that maybe my next two horses should be mares because I think Orri would probably fight with another gelding over the mares (he was gelded late). Or am I off on that? Melnir was gelded at nine last year and lives in the pasture now with about 8-10 mares, plus Skjoni, Buck, and Loftur. Loftur was a breeding stallion for a while, up until he was about five, and Buck was gelded fairly late, about four. Melnir really doesn't particularly care for Trausti for who knows what reason - Trausti SEEMS to be one of the quietest, most easy-going horses in the herd. Still, they lived together for a while with mares. Buck, the last one gelded just before Melnir, is Melnir's little buddy, his deputy. Mac and Thunder were our first two horses, then we got Holly. We had the three of them for about 18 months, then we bought Sundance...then Joe. Next came Gracie, then Cruise. I bought them in that order, and they always lived together until age-related feeding needs kicked in and I separated them for that reason. I'd heard the warnings about having multiple geldings in with mares, and I think it's basically hooey. I guess it just depends on the horses. It's been a couple of years since Orri was gelded, right? And he only bred for one season? Has he lived with geldings since his surgery? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] pure love
Mac and Thunder were our first two horses, then we got Holly. We had the three of them for about 18 months, then we bought Sundance...then Joe. Next came Gracie, then Cruise. I bought them in that order, and they always lived together until age-related feeding needs kicked in and I separated them for that reason. I'd heard the warnings about having multiple geldings in with mares, and I think it's basically hooey. I guess it just depends on the horses. Oh yeah, I forgot to add: Joe was about seven when we got him, and he'd only been gelded only about six months. He'd bred a lot of mares too, for several seasons. He was absolutely no trouble at all when we brought him into a herd of four geldings and one mare. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A new friend for Svort/now new homes
of it as choosing our battles, and we've found often that if we don't pick a certain battle, it often resolves itself. (I think I learned that fom having had a human child...LOL) I think that's one of the most overlooked training tools/methods of all - just giving things time to resolve on their own as the level of trust develops. Sometimes I think that the best training is non-training, meaning very relaxed, neutral interactions where the training is done very passively. Obviously, some things HAVE to be trained more specifically - I can't think of a way to 100% passively train a horse to saddle, although that would be nice! Side note: interestingly, it was Cary this time - Cary, who really has never been too interested in training - who suggested when it was time to take Cali/Angie out of her semi-quarantine (where she'd been with only Runa), and put her in the pasture with the bigger herd. I think he was right about the timing. She was getting pretty used to our movements, and we'd been handling her daily, not reacting much at all, and his theory is, that at that point, she would pick up a lot from the herd - how they look forward to our visits and will argue about who's going to get the attention - how relaxed and trusting they are with humans. I was pleased to see him developing a sense of what the horse is saying...that was a big step forward for him. We spent a minimal amount of time with her for about 6 weeks after she went into the herd of 15, and just recently, we've found her even MORE interested in humans than before...one more case where no training proved to be a good training alternative. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Janice is famous...well, sorta...
I had my hair cut on Friday. I've been going to the same hairdresser for about 20 years. He has the same warped sense of humor that I do, so I consider him a good friend. Anyway, he was cutting my hair on Friday, and he said, Oh wait, I heard about the coolest t-shirt and I know you'll think this is as funny as I do. Someone saw a t-shirt that says: 'Mess with me and you mess with the whole trailer park!' I said, Wait, it was ME who told you that, and it was my friend Janice who had the guts to wear it! So, Janice, this is the hippest, coolest salon in my county...and you've provided them the laugh of the week! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] saddle pad problem
But now, at the mount and dismount, the saddle (a sensation hybrid) does not even slip, just normal what I would call pulling from the weight in the stirrup on one side, pulls the saddle pad to the left, makes a HUGE wrinkle in it, and then it STOPS moving for some reason, the result being when I am seated in the saddle, I dont know it but there is a HUGE wrinkle, at the back of the saddle, on the left, or mounting side. by huge wrinkle, I mean a lump that is about six inches wide and long, must feel like a huge bump to the horse. Janice, did you open the pad up and take a look at the foam inside? That pad has the Medi Cheval foam, plus some separate shims to compensate for the dips behind Teev's withers. I wonder if the shims have slipped or if the foam has gotten wrinkled? I think Ann said the shims were made by Dave Genadek, so if they have become crumpled with wear, you could probably get more. I think that the USA Torsion distributor sells Medi Cheval, so she could probably get you repalcement foam inserts if necessary - I'm not sure if Skito will sell foam for competitive brands. Maybe Kaaren can comment if they will. It's a nice pad, and it worked well for Tivar, but as much as you ride, it could be time for some replacement parts. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
response to windgait So wrong. Being in the Vet world ,there is absolutely no statistical data to support your supposition. The diagnosis of spavin in Icelandics is virtually nonexistant home and abroad . Period . How shallow to think horses breed and breed on Ice for thousands of years would have a problem doing a Ice routine for 15 minutes . One of the major problems with pseudo- horse people is their total uneducation. Don't think any one with an education would buy your theory. Your agenda is not needed in Hanover. hahhaha i have a pretty good guess who this one is. Yeah, I betcha. Probably the same one who said that breeders shouldn't check on their pregnant mares. Probably the same one who said my breeding program is questionable because I allowed a three-gaited gelding on my property...as if three-gaitedness is contagious. The same one who calls BTW, this is a new claim - that they were bred for THOUSANDS (plural?) of years on ice? The standard line is that they were isolated in Iceland for ONE thousand years, but I think there's evidence to indicate even that's questionable. And, as Judy questioned, how often do Icelandics really RUN on ice when left to their own devices? Unless their lives are in danger? Or do they step gingerly, picking their way for the most part? You'd think someone who claims to be a vet would know that horses don't evolve with special adaptive traits in a period of a mere thousand years. Certain traits can be selectively eliminated very quickly - even in a single generation, but adaptive evolution takes many, many, many years - tens of thousands to millions - to happen. Hey, but what do you expect from me - I'm proud to say that I check in on my pregnant mares several times a day when they are due, and we'll even pull a foal if there is any doubt about the mare's or foal's survival during delivery... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Big Ball
Here¹s me and my horse Trinity playing soccer. He was recently retired at 13 with severe navicular, so we just play. No pressure, just messing around on a pretty day! He¹s now MUCH better at rolling the ball some times I have to slow him down. That's VERY cool...but also very sad that he had to be retired so young. This video is recent? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re:saddle pad problem
Kaaren will know if the pads have changed as I know that everyone loves them and they now are peaked over the withers and I don't think the one I bought and returned was. The last Skitos I bought were as peaked as the Medi Cheval. The first one I bought wasn't very peaked at all - I wouldn't use that type on Tivar.The peaked ones don't seem to bother the low-withered horses, but the non-peaked ones can sure rub the withers of the horses who have them. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Classical Training in Iceland/Spanish Walk
I personally think spanish walk is horrible no matter who, what Nationality, what country, what type of breed of horse etc etc... I agree that Spanish Walk is a pretty useless thing for a horse to know how to do. Same with levade like I saw Halldor trying to perform. Worse still though, is when these difficult moves are performed incorrectly, in the wrong form. They are difficult and potentially damaging to the horse even when done the right way. Very few horses have teh conformation to perform them correctly, even with prior conditioning and doing them without conditioning, or with the wrong conditioning seems riskier still. its unfortunate that some of the Icelandic trainers are getting mesmerized by this kind of stuff..taking after the Americans I suppose. I don't think it's an American thing at all. I haven't seen many Americans teaching either Spanish Walk nor levade, not in my area, and there's a strong dressage crowd here. I suppose that Spanish Walk is more common in the Spanish breeds, but I sure don't see many trying to teach it. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Trausti gait - stills from video
I didn't look at the video again, so don't remember how fast he was going, but it looks like flat walk or run walk. Yes, I don't think it was quite fast enough for run walk, so flat walk. Those two are his favorite gaits, although he has the full range. Good for Nancy for getting it right first, just from the video, even though she claims to be a gait newbie. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Brunka gait at liberty
Here's the link to the long distance video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjE9zN9oB04 And the Best Director award goes toDarn, who DOES it go too? Not Kevin, certainly not Cary...Janice, maybe Donny ISN'T so bad after all Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Big Ball
Here¹s the link to the soccer ball: http://www.naturalhorsetalk.com/horsetoys.html They have some nice things! I'm going to try Charm again on the small ball that we have, and if she doesn't like playing with it, I'm going to get another horse, a gelding! They play more than mares :-) I took a little video of Isak and Landi playing with a little Walmart SpongeBob ball. Should I upload that to YouTube? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: update on BALDUR / Join Up
Classical training is now being done in Iceland. I have never, ever seen any evidence of classical dressage in any interpretation being done in Iceland, not to any serious level. I HAVE seen some gross parodies of dressage tried to be presented as dressage...and in the pictures we've seen of Jolli (head instructor at Holar) showing his mare in some contortion of what he tried to pass off as Spanish Walk. That picture shows about every possible don't for Spanish Walk all rolled into one posture. It's the picture he selected to be on the cover of his video. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Classical Training in Iceland
I recall a young girl telling me that her horse went western and english, so I asked her to show me. She put on a western saddle and a curb bit and rode around. Then she put on an english saddle and an english bridle with snaffle and noseband, and rode around. She said, See, he goes english and western! That's a pretty common misconception...with children. We should hope that adults know better, but some don't. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Classical Training in Iceland
they may feel that the tolt is a collected movement, and it isn't. It is absolutely the opposite of collection! I was told that it was a form of collected walk! Wow. That shows how big the gap is. There's an old dressage adage: Speed is the enemy of collection. Yet, in the Breeding Evaluation videos - the ones where we can hear the judges' comments - the most common comment we hear is, Needs more speed. For virtually ALL the gaits, from tolt to trot to canter/gallop. You just can't have it both ways. Yes they are. Shoulder in to get tolt! No wonder I'm confused and clueless. And if you watch, it's almost never shoulder-in they show or teach. They seem to miss that there are all degrees of lateral movements that can help flexibility, from simple bending exercises and lateral flexions, to turns on the forehand and haunches, to leg yields, etc. Working on flexibility and relaxation is virtually always a good thing. We can start working on these exercises from the ground, or under saddle while standing, then walking. Trying to gain flexibility via an exercise that the horse isn't prepared for - or isn't capable of - is NOT a good thing. Nor is it a good thing if it's done in a rushed manner, or at inappropriate gaits. Shoulder-in is actually a moderately advanced move - NOT something to be taught to casual riders on unprepared horses at a day-clinic. And it's certainly not shoulder-in if you jerk the horses around to get their bodies arranged into some odd position... Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Trausti pictures
Here are a few pictures of pretty boy Trausti. He's got that spring gelding look - too much gelding play and not enough shedding yet - but I think he's still a handsome guy. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.1h4dk27jx=0y=-u4jckxlocaleid=en_US Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Brunka pics
Pretty Brunka - too bad it's not easier to take good pics of dark horses. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.5y46fstrx=0y=dckbb8localeid=en_US Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Trausti at liberty - what gait(s)
This isn't a great video - I was trying to encourage Trausti forward and video at the same time. Trausti is a really sweet boy, very dependable, but generally not in a big hurry. http://youtube.com/watch?v=PU-RAUy1RPI What gait(s)? Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Brunka gait at liberty
Here's a short video of Brunka gaiting at liberty today - again, not an optimal angle. After a few people guess, I'll send in some still shots I grabbed from the original video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn_rumnsqwk Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: update on BALDUR / Join Up
I also felt that the process of starting horses was much too fast. From join up to first rider was a very short time.It produces a horse that can be ridden by a very experienced rider. There are plenty of horses like that. I wanted a horse that could be ridden by my grandaughter. That's what Pat Parelli say's. I see horses like that and I know it is possible but it takes time (because the little steps take time). That's a commodity that many people are unwilling to invest. More fool them as they are going to spend more time micromanaging all those flaws they have created. Well that's got that one off my chest. Sorry all of you for my rant. It's a rant I share, Susan. It's much easier in the long run to train a horse slowly and not missing any steps than it is to leave gaps that have to be filled in later. It's much easier to train a horse than to retrain one. Horses are amazingly willing to forgive and to comply I think...but they don't forget easily. It breaks my heart when we people buy rehab horses and think they can quickly turn them around, and try to sell them for a profit as miraculously recovered, perfect horses. Heck, just as bad: when people get rooked into buying a horse that has issues that they didn't see, and they think they HAVE to get their money back out of the horse when they sell him - and many of these people won't put any effort into addressing the problems themselves, so the horse just gets passed on. These things take time: both the initial training and especially any retraining that may come up later because of the initial rush. Karen Thomas, NC .
Re: [IceHorses] Update on Bibi
I think these horses ... and probably all horses and other living things... benefit from being with people who are able to focus more on the journey than the destination. Jacki Jacki said this yesterday, and I meant to comment. I was just reminded to mention it when I read Susan Coomb's post about join up. This is why I'm comfortable with Cali going to Jacki. Jacki knows that Cali has over 11 years of wariness towards people. She knows that Cali hasn't been saddle-trained, and that her previous owner thought her too nervous to ever be saddle trained. I don't agree at all that Cali is a nervous horse - I think she's an unhandled horse, who was caught in a self-fulfilling cycle that I think CAN be broken. To me there's a HUGE difference. Wary is the word I used re: Cali when I first got her - it's MUCH better, but I can still see some traces of it. Cali has been neglected only as far as relationship-building, partnerships with humans, but I'm pretty confident that she was never physically neglected. She was never abused. Cali doesn't appear to have any abusive training to overcome - certainly no under saddle training at all, and no gait training - nor do I believe that she has any association of pain with humans...but nonetheless, she DOES have 11 years of wariness ingrained into psyche. That alone has to be overcome, but I think Cali WANTS that to change. Unfortunately, we see some Icelandic's who have both that wariness from lack of handling (no deep trust in humans) AND horses who have been trained with force, even to the point of abuse. Horses who have been trained with specific goals in mind, with a specific schedule in mind - some of the goals and schedules very inappropriate for some horses. Thankfully, Cali doesn't have this double-whammy to overcome...but gosh, sometimes I look at what a curious, willing student she is now, and think, wow, what a shame that her first 11 years were so unstimulating for her. I think her curiosity and intelligence will make that little wary edge disappear with time - but will it ever be 100% of what it might have been? Who knows? It certainly isn't going to miraculously go away 100% this year, although I'm optimistic that it can, and will, continue to recede with Jacki's love and attention to the point it can become a non-issue. My hat's off to the Jacki's, the Susan Coombs's, the Janice's, the Ann Cassidy's, and the others who are willing to put some time into these oh-so-potential-rich horses but who understand that there is only love and partnership to be gained if we do it the right way...who understand there's certainly little to no chance of profit in doing this...only an immeasurable feeling of trust to be gained from these awesome creatures. Karen Thomas, NC How do you make a small fortune with horses? Start with a large one.
Re: [IceHorses] clueless horse lovers
I've been a clueless horse lover all my life! Thankfully I did take lessons, and I read everything I can, but I still feel clueless most of the time!! :D I think we all have those moments, Virginia, no matter how long we have horses, so join the club. :) Gosh, I thought we'd done some research, and we certainly took lessons, before we bought our horses, and we still made tons of mistakes. We still do, but hopefully, we'll make fewer and fewer as we go along. Sadly, some people are so clueless that they don't even know they are clueless. God bless their poor horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] OT -cameras
I need a new camera like my husband needs a new gun, but I want a digital camera that I can use with one hand while riding. I don't necessarily need the video function. I really like my little Flip camera. I used to think of Kodak's as low-end cameras as far as quality, but I just bought my third digital Kodak. I have a more expensive Konica Minolta with a 12x optical zoom, but I never bother to get it out - it's heavier, the battery life isn't so great, and it has so many options that it takes longer to setup when those Kodak moments strike. I love my little Kodak V610, but they don't make them anymore. It has a dual lens (automatic-switching) with a 10X optical zoom total capacity and it's still very small. I would love to really get into it the way Mic has, but for now, I enjoy the very good (albeit not professional) quality I get out of these little ones, with the convenience of having a camera that can hang around my neck, or easily fit in a tiny saddle bag. I like the convenience of being able to use disposable AA batteries that I can buy anywhere I need them (like on vacation or on the trail, when finding an outlet to recharge batteries isn't always easy), but the smaller ones like the V610 can't handle the bulk of the AA's. I just found a discontinued Kodak M853 at Office Max on sale for a great discount - about $100. It's even smaller than my V610, but has more pixel capacity while using the same batteries and memory cards as the other one. Since I now have two that use the same accessories, I didn't mind buying a couple more spare batteries that are interchangeable between the two cameras. Since Cary takes pictures too, we can justify having two similar cameras - that may not make sense for everyone though. We hope to be having lots of Kodak moments any day now, when the two foals finally come out to play. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Foals cameras
I was thinking of those babies last night. Aren't they about due? I say so, but they are vetoing my decision on this matter... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Tab Hunter
Just in case California surfer boys never reached Saskatchewan, Wanda, here's Tab Hunter: http://www.tabhunter.com/ For some reason, I thought he was dead. He certainly is a nice looking older man - I think he looks better now than in his glory days.Quite a contrast from seeing the current pictures of, say, Tom Jones, who has apparently had so much work done that he's now got that perpetual surprised-deer-in-the-headlights look, which is really pretty scary-looking to me. Janice, I'll bet Tab-Teev will age just as gracefully... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] ground driving-Saddle Chariot
Let me know if you are successful! I am wondering what these puppies will run cost-wise. . . . I seem to remember the number of $1200, including harness, but I can't be sure. And, if it was, that was 2-3 years ago, and the dollar has taken a beating during that time. I would be surprised if they are that inexpensive now. Since I already have two harnesses, I probably should just go ahead and get a cart... Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Cali video - Leadline surcingle and Unwind game
just bear in mind me and tab hunter will be BEATING you and the cali girl Jacki!! haha Janice Not if he shows up wearing those frog slippers! Jacki She does have a point there, Janice. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: update on BALDUR / Join Up
Karen says Tivar will work on a lunge but I must be doing it in that roundpen manner he fears because when I put him on a lunge he starts going fast in a circle in a very frantic upset manner until I force him to stop and pet him and talk soft and calm him and get him back. I'd be willing to bet that Tivar was chased in the round pen at some point before he came here, because when he came here he would instantly go into zombie-mode and start mindlessly trotting in circles if he even thought that's what I wanted. I had to work carefully to overcome that tendency, but he DID learn the difference. I don't have pics or videos of that process however, since I did it myself and I can't effectively video myself. He will even walk on a circle in a quiet, relaxed way. Watch your body language - think subtle...REALLY subtle. I dont lunge thee horses at all or even try, with them instead, I just put them on a lead and go through some laid back exercises where we walk, i have them whoa, flex right, flex left, sidepass, then we go to the mounting block. I don't lunge/circle my horses much at all, but that said, I think EVERY horse should know how to play the circling game, lunge, free lunge, whatever. If you haven't had it come up yet, I can just about guarantee that you will eventually: a horse will come up slightly, possibly lame for whatever reason, and if you're walking beside him, you can't see what he's doing, and you may not want to ride him to feel what's happening. And, there's a good chance you want have a groundspotter when you really need one or a person to trot the horse out while you watch. Granted, it may be more accurate to judge what's going on if the horse is on a straight line rather than circling, but if you don't have a helper, it's great to be able to give the vet the best description you can before he comes out. If the horse is obviously three-legged lame, you'll probably get the vet out regardless, but there are some subtle lamenesses that should be addressed pretty quickly too. What I'm talking about is WAY different from chasing a horse in a round pen though. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] JP Giacomini
Here's a radio interview with JP Giacomini: http://iceryder.net/jpgiacomini.html Wow, that was long and a bit tedious in spots but I made it through. Towards the end, someone asked if there's a difference between Spanish riding and Portuguese riding. His answer: No, there's good riding and there's bad riding. I liked that. He's an interesting guy, and I'd like to see him sometime. I'm a bit envious of my cousin's husband. He retired early and he goes up and spends a week training with JP several times a year - he's done it for several years now. (I doubt I'd want to do it that often though...) Last year he bred his remaining reining-horse-bred QH mare to one of JP's stallions, producing what they call an Azteca foal. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A new friend for Svort / Tivar
I always figured he needed to be someone's very special horse or only horse and he was not getting that here. It has worked with Janice because I think he knows he is her #1 riding horse. He does not want others riding him. I have no doubt that Tivar is very happy with his life now, and that he and Janice are a match made in heaven. But, when he came back here, I rode him briefly as did Shirley, just for old time's sake. He was a doll for both of us, very relaxed and sweet. I think MOST horses prefer to have one main rider, or at least not to have too many different riders, but I think there was more to what was going on with Tivar than just wanting one single rider. Either he remembered us as non-threatening friends from his past, or we didn't give off the same vibes as some other people...I don't know. He did not like training, it was not always done well for him. I do not know about the lunging except that he hated it so I did not do it. He would go like Karen said fast around while gritting his teeth. perhaps he had that done in training. When he was first trained Jo did free lunging with him and ran alongside him and he loved it. They would go over obstacles and do all kinds of things and he was so proud! Once he relaxed here, he was one of the most eager students I've ever met. He seemed to relish attention and learning as much as any horse I've known, in the same league with my brilliant Sina and Bjola. I think there's a lesson to be learned here... many - most? - horses like to learn, some even love it, but probably most horses don't particularly care for force-fed training. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Baldur has an Album
I posted three photos in an album titled Baldur fra Alfasaga. How long did you have him? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Saddle marks
It's a perfectly symmetrical area so there are no small pressure points and I check them very aggressively for sore backs and get no response. Do you think this is something to worry about? I used to watch sweat marks when I rode in a treed saddle, but I no longer pay much attention to them. I think they can mean different things in different seasons/climates (as the humidity changes, etc.) and depending on the saddle pad you use. Some saddle pads absorb sweat better than others. There have oodles of discussions on sweat patterns on the treeless list, and I've finally decided it's not reliable enough to worry about. I've tested the Sensations with the PLIP and the impressions were actually pretty good. You say she doesn't seem sore at all? If not, I'd just continue to watch for soreness, and watch for any changes in her attitude or for changes in the sweat patterns. I'll try to remember to get some pics of Sina's back next time I ride - assuming I ever get over this stinking cold and the weather ever gets decent again... g. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Definition of Natural Gait Training
For me, gait training means refining the horse's natural gaits under saddle so that he knows which cue means which gait, then working to get the best out of that gait, without gimmicks. That's a good one. I liked that too. If a person is used to dealing with three-gaited horses, I'd say that gait-training a gaited horse should be analogous to gait training a three-gaited horses. A naturally trotting horse might be prone to falling on his forehand, and a young three-gaited horse will definitely need to build strength and balance to carry a rider at the trot. In that light, the trot needs to be improved, but not created. Same with canter - some three-gaited horses find trot and canter easy and have good natural balance to begin with, but virtually all horses need some fine-tuning of trot and canter to do them optimally with riders on their back. The only thing potentially more complicated about gait training a gaited horse is that there may be more gaits to pick through and isolate. I just think we should never have to create a gait, only hone the skills within whatever natural gaits the horse has. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] ground driving-Saddle Chariot
If he can get out of the deal he made with the other lady I may be able to get the older frames for us for a good deal if others are interested. One Saddle Chariot can be modified to work with several different sized horses, with a few extra parts. Let me know if those come up for sale at a good price. I'm not looking to fork out $3000 on one of those, when I can get a new easy-entry cart for about $500-600. Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Wary Horses
I am just curious, are these wary horses low on the totem pole with other horses?? I have noticed my wary horses are. Are you talking about Cali? No. I don't know if you remember, but I've commented a couple of times that I think there are several types of confidence that a horse can have. I've named three types: stuff confidence, herd confidence, and people confidence. Cali seems very confident in the herd, quickly rising to the rank of elder statesman - or maybe a respected peer. She's not overly bossy or dominant, but certainly found her place at the upper levels. She's also pretty confident about stuff. Her only wariness has been about humans. Runa is one of the ones who always seems to fall at the bottom of the herd. For that reason, I assumed she'd be uncertain in her training, and spooky about stuff. She's not. She loves humans and isn't very worried about stuff, but a raised eyebrow from an older broodmare will leave her quaking in her boots... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Update on Bibi
I had Gat and Orri checked--Orri was good to go but Gat needed some work. How often do horses need floating? That depends on the horse. Occasionally, you'll find one that rarely needs any dental work. I suppose it somewhat depends on the conformation of their mouth. When we got Thunder, he was 8 and had apparently never had any dental work, and he had a couple of mouth abnormalities that led him to develop a wave mouth. The vet said he couldn't correct all that was wrong quickly, so we had his teeth floated every six months for about 2-3 years, then he was able to go a year, even two years, between floats. We got Holly about the same time, and her mouth conformation was ideal. She's 23 this year, and I think she's had her teeth floated about three times in her entire life, and she's had the same number of checkups, with the same vets as Thunder. Those are the extremes we've found. I have mine checked every year unless we find a reason to check them more often. My old QH apparently was pretty sensitive to mouth pain, and I found out (literally the hard way, after hitting the ground twice) that the gentle soul needed dental attention at least every year, if not more often. If I hit the ground, something was up, and more often than not, he had a dental problem. The old conventional wisdom was that horses don't need their teeth checked or floated until they are fully mature, maybe after they are seven, or even ten. What we've found is almost reverse. It seems to me that horses should get good, regular care during their early years, and if you keep up with their teeth then, you may find that they need LESS floating as mature horses. I keep up with my horse's dental needs, and I've been surprised to find that my mature horses can often go two years between floats, and some even longer. But, it will vary a lot from horse to horse. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Thunder, April 2008 (Off topic)
(The boarding barn mentality is 'ride them through it', and the rough behavior happens--not all the time, but it's there.) V I think riding it out is RARELY...if ever...the answer. When I was first considering buying Loftur, the first rehab I made a conscious effort to get, I had multiple dire warnings that he'd need a good rider, and that I shouldn't buy him unless I could go see him and ride him myself - many of those warnings came from people no longer active on this list. Just a couple of years before that, I'd hit the ground several times when Gracie developed her problem, and I don't know about others, but I'm just not into pain - for myself or for my critters. I DO think that horses with problems need good HORSEMEN, and of course, many good horsemen are also good riders. Riding it out may prove riding skills, but I know that there are many good riders who simply don't have a clue when it comes to horsemanship skills. As much as I'd love to, I know I'll never be the best rider, but I still keep on trucking, trying to hone my horsemanship skills, because I KNOW I can continue to make progress there. That said, I DO think there are times when we need to gently push a horse past his comfort zone in order to make progress, but hopefully we can do that in small enough increments where the rider's physical safety and the horse's trust aren't jeopardized at all. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Update on Bibi
Thank you, Ann, for doing this for Bibi! Absolutely! And, while we're thanking Ann, I should thank her for having the insight to give Tivar a fresh start two years ago. I know it's hard to let a homegrown baby go, but man, I don't think his story could be happier. You really made a wise decision for your boy (my boy? Janice's boy?) as I'm sure you know from reading Janice's posts. Where else could he have gotten a home that would supply him with frog slippers and parade plumes..? :) My experience with rehab/problem Icelandic's is limited I guess, but with the four I've had, turning them around hasn't taken TONS of money. (Gracie, however, took a lot of time and money to get to the bottom of her issues, but we finally did.) More than anything, it's taken time, patience, and the desire to REALLY watch and observe them. What I've learned from Shirley, as well as some other good horsemen (like the Parelli's) is that there's a lot to knowing when NOT to try to ride them - if your gut tells you it's not right, then don't do it! We can always try another day when things seem better, but a bad incident can set us back so easily! In many cases, sometimes it's perfectly ok - ideal even - to do nothing. When Tivar arrived and didn't show the back pain symptoms that I expected, I was at a loss for what to do next. So...I let him have pasture time, and spent LOTS of time just watching him, learning his unique body language, seeing how he interacts in the herd, watching for signs of pain in his posture, etc. I handled him lightly during that time, taking him for an occasional short walk, etc., trying to get inside his mind as to what motivated him. Since he's so expressive, it didn't take me long with him - eventually, I realized he was much easier to read than the super-stoic ones like Loftur. It's hard to tune out expectations and really listen to 1) our horses and 2) our guts, and 3) to the insights of really good vets and professionals. I would never underestimate the effects of a horse having had problems though - I'm not sure they every totally get over it, depending of course, on what it was. And of course, I haven't tried to force any of these horses to do anything they aren't comfortable with, such as gait in a way they aren't built for. I've said many times, that horses are better at forgiving than at forgetting. I'm convinced that once these horses have gone through some life-changing stresses, we should try as hard as possible to make sure they have a stable home, and don't move any more often than they ABSOLUTELY have to. (At age 52, I no longer talk about homes for life. I know that NO ONE can promise that, no matter how good the intentions.) Here's to hoping that Bibi turns around as happily and successfully as did Tivar, whom I consider the poster child for successful rehabs. I hope that either you can keep her, Ann, or that you can find her very own Janice, whomever that may be. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Ride on Scooter and Walter the mule
From the help of some hikers we got some pictures taken of both of us. Nice butts huh? The horses that is Scooter is just too adorable and I'm glad you're having fun with him. He seems like a great guy. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Trail Horse - trotting
I agree. They also tend to become quite stiff (they pace because they are stiff or become stiff because they pace) and it's a lot more difficult to work a horse loose and keep him that way if he doesn't trot. I know that's a given in the Icelandic community that horses NEED to trot, but I don't literally agree. I DO think it's good for the horses to alternate gaits. I DO think it's hard on the horses to spend too much time in the racky (tolty) or pacey gaits. I think it's great for the horses who can easily trot to be allowed to trot. But, we no longer (I hope!) think that Icelandic's ONLY do walk, trot, canter, tolt and pace. I really think it's hard on some Icelandic's...no, on some horses of ANY gaited breed...to ask them to trot. But, trot isn't the only alternative to rack and pace, right? Many Icelandic's can comfortably run walk, which is a LOVELY gait. Some Icelandic horses can comfortably foxtrot - probably MY favorite of all the soft gaits. Many, probably MOST, Icelandic's can canter, and ALL (that I've ever met!) can WALK and flat walk. I think those are viable alternate gaits too. I think VARIETY is the answer, not asking a horse to do any gait that's hard for him, be it either extreme: rack/tolt or trot. Frankly, I think if the trotting is done in the forced, restrained way we see in the show videos, then the horses aren't going to benefit from trotting any more than from racking. Maybe it's more to-the-point to say that we should aim to vary the gaits the horse does, and to make sure that he does them comfortably and in a relaxed way, rather than advising any particular gait. Sometimes I think we in this breed have the cause and effect reversed on this topic. I think that the horses that SERIOUSLY tend towards pace tend to be stiffer horses, not so much that the pacing made them stiff. But, if the horse is inherently built pacey, I don't think it's fair to expect him to trot to compensate. We can walk him/her a lot on varying terrains. We can do wide serpentines and flexing and bending exercises, even at a standstill. And if the horse has other viable soft gaits and/or can canter, we can encourage those. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] ground driving
Anyway, Mr. Mulholland is planning a trip to the States this summer to demo the Saddlechariot at various locations.I'm so excited! I am sooo hoping he comes close enough to Michigan (or Michigan itself) for me to get to see and meet him.And, I hope this trip results in us North Americans being able to get our hands on one of these lovely little contraptions at some point. I don't know - he was planning to start selling them in the USA any day now, what ..? Two years ago...three? I kept watching for them to appear, and I'm skeptical at this point. I'm on the verge of buying a traditional cart because I'm tired of waiting. They sounded good, but they certainly were a departure from convention. Mic, do you know anyone in the UK that is using them? Weren't you the one who first saw them and reported them to the list? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] What Gait / Rocky Mountain Horse
I watched this video over and over. I sort of wanted to think the horse was lame. The rider is coming up off his back and his head is really bobbing, but not in a nice rhythmic way. It's either resistance or discomfort. Or maybe every time she bounces, it hurts his back and he bobs his head. I think you're onto something. Normally, when I see that much head action in a gaited horse, I first think of the bit or a pinching saddle, but since he was ridden bareback and with no bit, that can't be it. It wasn't a head nod that is a good thing with running walk or foxtrot - as you noted, it wasn't rhythmic. It's like what I saw in his feet wasn't the same story I saw in the rider's bouncing and in his head/body language. Maybe he's just really green, multigaited and is simply shifting gaits trying to find his balance...? It's nice to see a horse so naturally gaited, but I'd like to know more about what's going on. If he's really young and just under saddle, maybe it's not a big deal, but it sure left me with questions. If he IS that green and still finding his balance, I'd like to see more plain old regular walk before asking for gait. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Janice and Jeffers
Anyway, the caption at the bottom of the poster said.. Somewhere, someone is tired of putting up with her sh*t. I've hosted a Liz Graves clinic two years running, after attending one the prior year. They've been blasts, but hosting one is somewhat distracting and certainly adds to the work. Anyway, two years ago, a woman signed up with two beautiful horses, a RMH and a SSH. The woman wasn't a lot younger than I am, but was petite and slender, a blue-eyed blonde with a strong resemblance to Michele Pfeiffer.I soon realized that the woman was not only beautiful, but was fabulously wealthy with a summer home probably worth twice what my full-time-one-and-only farm would bring...and my farm is in an expanding area that has seen some serious real estate inflation over the past ten year. sigh... Anyway, at the end of the first day of the clinic, Cary and I were getting ready to go to dinner with the group and were in our bedroom changing clothes. In a rush, I sort of stepped in front of him, and in his typical deadpan tone, he joked, Hey! Watch it. I'm in the mood to spank a petite middle-aged woman, and you're the closest one. The woman was pampered, beautiful (if slightly past her prime) and wealthy, but just being around her casually for one day had put Cary in a foul mood. Ever been around a person so needy that they just seem to suck the air out of the gathering? That was her. Forget the Michelle Pfeiffer resemblance... after less than 24 hours, Cary was indeed tired of putting up with her sh*t. Karen Thomas, NC
Fw: [IceHorses] ground driving-Saddle Chariot
I've been working on trying to get him out here for two years, but he says he is for sure coming out in June to the Fjord Fun Fest in NC. That would be the start of his summer tour. Will that be in Asheville? I really want to see these things, so let me know when. I really want to get something pretty soon. Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[IceHorses] Janice and Jeffers
more pics i took just before they arrived. Tivar's mane is looking GOOD! Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Update on Bibi
Was it Tab Hunter? HAHHH! Tab - what a great nickname for Tivar/Teev! Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Angie - first lesson towards saddle training
Angie had her first session today towards the goal of starting her under saddle. I took pictures and got a few videos. I'm putting some pictures up on Kodak Gallery now, and when I go through the videos, I'll probably put a couple up on YouTube. I've heard a rumor that Angie may be going to get a new name...? Has anyone else heard that...? Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Re:Update on Bibi and an update on BALDUR
Bibi sounds a bit like Baldur. Baldur is the horse I rescued at full price last summer. He was sold to us as husband safe but afraid of everything. Like Bibi, his teeth needed major work. His hooves also badly needed trimmed and he was underweight and malnourished. ... Baldur didn't accept treats from anyone but me when he came. Now, he loves everyone and will even greet strangers with polite interest. ... He was spooky when he came, but now, his biggest spook is a jump. We worked on everything that spooked him in the beginning from cell phone rings in the forest to feet bumping him when mounting. Wow, it sounds like he really had some issues just a few months ago. I don't think I've ever met an Icelandic that spooks over cell phones. Wonder why he spooked over feet bumping him? Baldur was a gift from God. Now, he needs someone of his own and I need to let him go. Send prospective owners to dreamhorse. Is this him? http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1202065 Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Jeffers traffic cones
Someone asked about buying traffic cones recently...I decided it would be cool to have some of the short ones that are easier to move around. I have some of the cheap soccer cones, but they are old and falling apart now. I ordered the 6 ones from www.jeffersequine.com and they came today. They are just $5 each, but appear to be made of the same heavy-duty stuff the big real ones are. They are very visible, so they seem like a great deal. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Cali
Here are some pictures of Cali's first session aiming towards beginning her saddle training. You can see the peanut gallery (Isak, Landi and Trausti) being rowdy in the background, but she wasn't fazed. There's also a picture of Sarah the Siamese barn cat, and of the little Jeffers traffic cones. Mostly they began the Seven Games (formally - she'd done some informally before), practiced the unwind game, introduced the saddle pad, and used the lead as an introduction to the surcingle. She also got to sniff the bareback pads on the fence. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=4jh0nhxz.6uckmgynx=0y=-uxunoklocaleid=en_US Cali used to be known as Angie, but someone suggested that with her blonde mane, she looks like a California surfer girl. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] ground driving-Saddle Chariot
If he shows up...he's a flaky inventor you know...it will be at Moses Cone June 23-28. If he doesn't show up, there's a lady in Asheville who has several of the prototypes. I drove one at her house. The harness didn't look nice enough to sell but it worked well. I'm trying to get one of the carts she has and a new harness from Simon, maybe we can do a two-fer deal. Keep me informed. I would certainly like to see one and I'll try to forego the temptation to order an easy-entry cart until I've seen one. (Moses Cone in Junea!) Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[IceHorses] Cali video - Leadline surcingle and Unwind game
Here's one video from Cali's session today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USMPPfKqE2I Before she will try to use a surcingle or put a girth around her, she uses a leadline to simulate the feeling around her middle. If the horse isn't comfortable with the feeling, she can release the pressure instantly. Cali also figured out the unwind game pretty quickly. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Cali and Jacki
Here's a little video of Jacki working/playing with Cali last weekend. That was Cali's first experience with the feed sack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl7zupaWAGI Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A new friend for Svort
Congratulations! What a wonderful picture. Cali was fairly wary of folks when she first got here, but she WANTS to be a friendly, cuddly horse. She really warmed up to Jacki, as the picture shows. I think she's decided that she'd like to have her own person. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] A new friend for Svort
I was thinking we could have called her Gidget Gidget and Tab - how cute! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Cali video - Leadline surcingle and Unwind game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USMPPfKqE2I Karen, nice job. That would be a good video for the on-line show; what do you think? Thanks, Judy - it's certainly fine with me, if it's ok with Jacki. I'll make sure it's ok with Shirley. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Cali video - grooming from the mounting block
At first, Cali would act started when someone suddenly got tall by stepping up on a stool, but she's getting better. Since we'll use a mounting block eventually, today, she just groomed her from the mounting block, and used it casually for a couple of things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwTK5tiJXeE Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Two more Cali videos - starting to circle, and intro to the saddle pad
Cali now likes to hang out with people, and since she was initially somewhat wary of people, I find it hard to make her move out and away. But, to make any progress towards getting her under saddle, we'll need to get her moving forward on her own. Here Shirley is very patient and quiet, yet firm, in getting Cali to move forward on the line. She praises her for the slightest try - precision will come later. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae791doEFto The fenced yard where the dogs are is behind me. We've noticed that Connie, the setter, has figured out when we lift the lead rope, the horse is supposed to move forward. Connie is convinced that she could help if she were just allowed to. Later, Cali got to meet the saddle pad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As_tENWgmhM As typical, there is a cat underfoot. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Hay Shortage now another rescue Icelandic
Thanks for your kind words. I'm trying to find out more about what's going on. I'll be calm enough tomorrow to ask the rescue. Cherie, I wrote the rescue on Sunday, as soon as I saw the post on another list. I thought then that he might be another horse that I've tried to get and would still like to have. He isn't the one I thought, as we all know now, but it didn't sound to me like she was actively trying to adopt him out. I got the feeling that someone went to the rescue, saw him and asked, them Kim posted that there was an Icelandic for adoption. She was very honest (I think), being very clear that he has issues and isn't to be ridden - certainly not without a LOT of thought. It's pretty common for rescue agencies to ask for a token adoption fee - most small and large animal shelters do that to discourage the MOST casual adopter.Here's the reply. I have Naggur. He wasnt really for adoption, but if you or anyone are interested in adopting him and not riding him, I will consider. Heres the story I sent the gal that emailed this morning about himemail me if interested. Hi Kimberly, We have Fillippi, aka Naggur here. If you are in icelandic circles, you might have heard of him. He has hurt many people, men and last owner got several broken ribs and a concussion and had to be life flighted to the hospital. He's unpredictable under saddle, but ground drives like a dream. He needs a home where he will not be ridden, ever. He had a traumatic introduction to humans as a 2 yr old colt..pasture fire, then ran with the herd to a golf course up in Buellton, then herded by police car down the street home as he was the only colt who would not be caught..then the bright owner decided since he was now caught..to geld him right away. His intro to humans. If you can provide a home for sanctuary where he can just be a pet and not ridden, let me know, otherwise he is sitting here to protect the innocent public. his adoption fee is $500. all proceeds are tax deductible as we are a nonprofit. I hope this helps. I hope this will help breeders understand that there really isn't any such thing as a forever home. Even with the best of intentions, people get sick, lose their jobs, endure hay shortages, get divorced, even die... We do the best we can, but if we are realistic, we have to admit that even those of us who INTEND to be forever homes may not actually be.It's a sobering thought, but we do what we can. This is why I gelded Melnir last year...I may have a FEW more babies here, but at 52, there's a real chance that this generations of my babies will outlive me. Karen Thomas, NC IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] OT(kind of): Saddle fit
I know I've seen a couple of other models that also have a gullet, although I can't remember the brands -- maybe someone can help there?(I have been rather disappointed that more treeless saddles do not build a gullet into their designs for some unknown reason.) Personally, I don't particularly like the idea of a wider, treed-saddle-like built-in channel in a treeless saddle. Part of the beauty of a treeless saddle is that it can be tweaked for such a range of horses. By putting a wide channel in the saddle itself, you are creating more of a mold such that the angles may or may not be right for the given horse's back. It's just as easy and cost-effective, actually easier to me, to make any minor adjustments to a good Skito-type channel pad (shims, changing to a laminated foam or thicker foam) than to modify panels built into the saddle itself. I will clarify that I don't have any horses at the moment that have prominent spines though, but I do have a range of Icelandic anatomies to deal with. The Sensations do have a small gullet down the center, with the panels on each side being slightly beveled away. I wouldn't use one for extended periods without a channel pad, but there are many people feel they aren't absolutely necessary for horses with well padded backs and inny spines, especially for shorter rides - most people agree they are necessary for horses with prominent spines. And remember, humans tend to have somewhat of a channel built in to their anatomy - the human seatbones are generally, what? Three-and-a-half to four inches apart, or even wider? If you ride very centered in the saddle most of the time (and many people don't) most people probably won't be putting much if any weight on the horse's spine anyway. One of the biggest advantage the Sensations offer in my opinion over the ones like Freeform, BMSS, and the variations of Torsion/Barefoot/Trekker models is that the Sensations have two independent panels on each side of the saddle. To me, this is more important than literally having a built-in channel. If you ride one-sided, or if a spook or whatever puts your weight mostly in one stirrup, a saddle with a single-piece structure across the back will tend to pull down on the withers and spine. With independent panels, the Sensation is much less likely to do that - the pressure will tend to stay to the stressed side, not directly down onto the spine and withers. Skito is one, and I like the Saddleright pads myself My husband also uses a Saddleright pad with his Sensation, and has had good results with it. However, it's not a channel pad, and really wasn't designed for treeless saddles. It works well for them, but his horse has a well-muscled and padded back. I don't think the two type pads can be used interchangeably for all horses. Except for him and Skjoni, we use Skito pads almost exclusively. There are some other pads that get good reviews, but for my money, you can't beat a Skito for protection, longevity, and the ability to customize them. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
I think the main difference is that bad small bales may cause respiratory problems, coughing etc which is a real nuisance, but improperly baled large bales can cause botulism, which is fatal. That's not what I read last night when I went to review why I have such strong feelings against round bales. Anyone who is interested in this topic might want to go to www.thehorse.com and do a little research. I find several mentions of round bales as potential sources of problems, including being more commonly associated with heaves and COPD, even when the round bales are used in the pasture. Again, not saying absolutely that they shouldn't be used - I'd leave that up to your local vet and Ag agents to advise you one - but we should be very careful to read the risks and make an informed decision for our area. You will need to login to read these but they are free. http://thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=6010kw=round%20bales http://thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10472kw=round%20bales http://thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7103kw=round%20bales Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Angie update
Angie has had a few weeks of downtime in the pasture with the herd, just getting some very passive, day-to-day handling. She's the project horse we got at the end of November who was said to be very nervous, but we haven't seen her as very nervous at all. Honestly, I think she got labeled as nervous when was an unhandled filly, and she was never given a chance to overcome that label. I sent the video clip in a couple of weeks ago of her routine vet check: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ofq55ZxBd6o which was thankfully very boring. This weekend, she got more individual attention that she hasn't had in a month or so. Here is a little clip of a friend - nameless, unless she chooses to reveal herself :) - leading Angie up to a feedbag on the ground, something we had never done with her before. I was quite pleased with her non-reaction. We are going to start her towards saddle training now - if we see that she needs more time, we'll give it to her, but I think she's getting ready for a new phase of her life. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
We use baled hay, probably 70 lb bales, and over the years have found all sorts of dead stuff in bales: snakes, rodents, pieces of a fawn. Wonder why it would be that way here in Oregon and less so where you are. It's very rural here, but you have lots of critters don't you? We've certainly seen a few dead mice in our hay - not many, but a few. And like you, Nancy, I've heard about all sorts of dead critters in our hay in our area. I haven't seen any lately, but I know others have. It happens in NC. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
OK - we would call that long straw. It's not used as a feed stuff over here - in fact I think it's only used for thatching. I would have thought it would make a very pretty energy feed, with the grain still attached. Often people here with big horses have problems with choke if they feed straw, though I've never had that with the Icelandics. No, it's not straw at all because it's cut while it's growing and it's still green. Straw is what's left over after the seed heads are cut. Some of the oat hay I've seen doesn't have as much in the way of heads as I thought it would - it was cut before the heads fully formed. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
Round Bales and botulism from the U of TN http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/horses/pdf/Botulism_1-21-03.pdf Botulism is one risk, but probably the more common risk is plain old colic. Horses work through some cases of colic on their own with no medical intervention, but sometimes it's fatal or requires expensive and risky surgery. I'd bet the number of non-fatal colic cases is much higher than the less common botulism poisoning. While the odds of a full recovery after a colic bout are fairly high, even plain old colic isn't something I want my horses having. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
And as I write this I am wondering why, just seems field mice etc would accidentally get into the hay... but I have never heard of a single case of botulism. In fact, the only bad hay probs I have ever heard of is one case of a young horse dying from black mold in hay, that was in mid alabama, and then the blister beetle disaster in alfalfa brought in from somewhere up north. It's not JUST botulism that bad hay can cause, Janice. Moldy or decomposing matter can trigger a colic attack. I'm sure many people don't report each and every case of colic since it's so common, and many of the reported cases never get a specific cause assigned. It's usually not fatal, but I still don't want my horses to have it. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Mats!!
Orri is shedding like crazy. When I was brushing him I noticed that he has some matting around the armpits. Darn. I thought you were going to say that you bought the cow carpet mats and that you liked them. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Mats!!
Oops, sorry...maybe the spelling should've been matts? I don't know - it's probably right. Just knowing you are setting up a farm makes my brain go to certain topics... :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Flexible Trees
http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/forum1/188-5.htmlHere's an additional post with interesting information: http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=188forum_id=1jump_to=2216#p2216 Wow. I've seen plenty of treeless saddles, spring-tree saddles, and flexpanel saddles but I've only seen the flex-tree saddles in videos...and never shown in that light. Do you know what brand that saddle is? No wonder the horse was bucking. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses]Mic - re: mould vs mold
i think, correct me if i am wrong, but in america, mold is mold and we have moulding around the bottom of the wall in houses. and in Canada you have mould, eh. Many years ago, the first settlers in Canada were trying to think of a name for the country. Some insightful leader suggested that they pull some letters out of a hat containing all the letters in the alphabet, and they would use whatever they thought of from the first letters. And thus it was: CehN...ehDeh.. With just three letters they got CANADA. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: 4/5/2008 7:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Hay Shortage
One sideline point I'd like to make here: Sometimes, when a subject comes up, it is not as educational to learn how someone manages within a perfect system, but more helpful to see how someone manages within the less-than-perfect system.For example, Susan mentioned needing to feed alfalfa because it's what is grown in her area, Janice has mentioned she's on sand and never had problems with sand colic, Wanda feeds round bales kept under a tarp. Hearing how everyone manages with what they have is good information I think, because NONE of us have perfect systems.And I hope we will continue to report on how we make things work without fear of lectures or condemation. It's good information. Just remember what may be merely a less than perfect system in one area can be downright dangerous (fatal) in another. I notice you listed most of the folks who commented on this thread except for Laree and me, so I assume this was directed at us. After we explained why we don't use round bales, we both suggested that list members check with their local ag agents since regional climates, soil types and grass species may come into play. If what Laree and I mentioned as documented hazards in our area don't apply to other areas, that's fine, but at least people new to horse-owning will have an idea of the why's behind our reasons - otherwise, they may not even know to ask the questions in the first place.If I remember, new-to-farming Virginia mentioned that she'd heard that round bales aren't best for horses, and I hope she now knows some background for why some people don't use them. I certainly hope that sharing information doesn't constitute lectures or condemnation. Virginia, I certainly apologize if you took what I said as a lecture, and I'm sure you'll make the best decision for your horses and your area. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Wanda! Your cat??
i know someone who had a horse die of EPM. She hates possums. But honestly, seems we had more possoms and coons when we lived closer to town! Now we live way out in the woods and our predators are more foxes and coyotes. Seems possums and coons are found where they can live in nearby woods and like to come dig thru the trash maybe? Or maybe your foxes and coyotes are killing off the raccoons and opossums. (Did I really just write opossums - and me a good Southern girl...?) Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Driving questions
I'm thinking about driving again - so far that's as far as we've ever gotten, but maybe SOMEDAY... Anyway, I've been doing a little reading and I'm ready to start thinking about some details. Does anyone have any good sources for driving in more natural ways? My gut tells me that I don't want to use blinkers - I believe that Christine and Robyn have said they've started driving horses without them, and I won't be driving any horse that I don't trust fully. I'm also wary about using overchecks, probably don't want to use a martingale, and I definitely don't want to use a dropped noseband. So, any good sources? I know that Pat Parelli is starting to show some NH ground driving and ponying, but I don't think they have any materials on driving a cart. I don't want to abandon the tack that's TRULY necessary to be safe, but I sure don't want to use overly restrictive tack if there's no valid reason I have two harnesses, but I suspect I'll have to buy a few new parts to get the fit right. I don't give a fig about tradition - just the safety and comfort of the horse and humans. We'll start this very slowly, in the ring first. I'll start with a mature horse (Saga, Trausti, Skjoni, Melnir or Sina most likely) who's quite used to the trails, know how to ground drive, and who knows how to steer from the saddle and from the ground. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] New Tipperary + helmet
Had anyone seen or tried the new Tipperary plus sportage helmet? No, but I'm going to order one for Cary to have as a spare. It comes in an XXL, and those are hard to find - unless you are ok with the $300+ models from Dover! Thanks for the tip. Karen Thomas, NC
