Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>That's one thing I just don't get. Icelandics have NEVER been advertised in >that way over here, or in any of the ads I've seen from Europe. Why would >people promoting the breed in the US do that And come to that, why >would prospective buyers believe them? < Hi Mic, Many of the Icelandic horse owners here got into Icelandics as their first horses, so no prior horse keeping experience / knowledge. Couple that ignorance with the appealing "mystique" surrounding Icelandics of being touted as s very different from all other equines because of the way they "evolved" -- more like dogs than horses, disease and trouble free -- blah, blah, blah. The myths just got more and more ingrained as those first owners romanced things further (because now they were importing and breeding to sell to others). They became the "experts" within the breed and mentors for the next set of buyers. You really had a case of blind leading the blind and like the sagas, myths were being passed on down until, well, ridiculous things were just taken as well-known "facts". It helped too, that subsequent buyers wanted to beleive they really had something exclusive and different from the myriad of other breeds here, so what they were told was very easy to swallow. They wanted to swallow it. : ) And early sellers / importers had some VERY stiff competition from other gaited breeds in terms of marketing the Icelandic to rise above in some way/shape/fashion. So, why not make them into some kind of completely trouble-free equine where all the typical problems of horse-keeping are "bred out". Another remember being told Icelandics don't spook because there's no predators in Iceland??? That was one of my personal favorites.The irony of our imported mare being almost hysterically wary of people (for the first two years she was with us) didn't escape me as there IS a predator of horses in Iceland: Man. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:13:41 -0400, you wrote: >when the breed's party line was that Icelandic's don't get >laminitisIcelandic's don't colic...Icelandic mares never have trouble >foaling... That's one thing I just don't get. Icelandics have NEVER been advertised in that way over here, or in any of the ads I've seen from Europe. Why would people promoting the breed in the US do that And come to that, why would prospective buyers believe them? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
RE: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>>> Mic, keep track of the people that were in the Icetolt and let us know in a >>> year or so, how many of those horses are still sound. Next April, make a >>> few phone calls and then report back to us how many of them have any >>> lameness issues. I'm honestly curious about your findings... I've been >>> pondering over this, and if I were an owner and my horse was suddenly >>> mysteriously lame and I ACTUALLY was able to connect it to an Icetolt I >>> participated in...I think I'd be too embarrased to admit it.. And "admitting it" has been a huge deal in this breed, bigger than in any I'd ever encountered prior. Thankfully things are MUCH more open than when we got our first Icelandics, but most of us remember when the breed's party line was that Icelandic's don't get laminitisIcelandic's don't colic...Icelandic mares never have trouble foaling... and I think we all know now that they do. And, probably with many thanks to Judy in particular (and the other long-term list members) these things are openly discussed now, at least in some circles. With all the denials I've heard in this breed in the past few years, it means absolutely nothing to me that no one has heard of a horse lamed by an ice tolt. Who that is dumb enough to do it would admit injury or unsoundness? As far as injuries from ice tolts being inevitable, I feel sure some horse DO manage to get through one, or two, or even several of them without injury. Think about it - most of us grew up in an era before seat belts and baby-seats were required in cars, and we're here, safe and of reasonably sound-minds. Did that keep me from being rigorous about using a car seat for Emily when she was small? No! Will I have a car seat in my car if/when I ever get a grandchild? You bet! She went into her car seat every time, just as I buckle my seatbelt for every ride. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1398 - Release Date: 4/25/2008 2:31 PM
RE: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>>>Ah Janice, if only we could sit down and talk and you could tell us how you >>>really feel. Your post reminds me of one of my favorite movie lines in Bull >>>Durham where Kevin Costner tells Susan S what he believes in. "Oh my..." I loved that movie, and I loved her response to his monologue... :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1398 - Release Date: 4/25/2008 2:31 PM
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:56:38 -0600, you wrote: >Mic, keep track of the people that were in the Icetolt and let us know >in a year or so, how many of those horses are still sound. Next >April, make a few phone calls and then report back to us how many of >them have any lameness issues. I'm honestly curious about your >fiindings... I will do, I promise. I know a lot of these horses quite well and see them quite often, so I'll follow up for the list on how they are going. I don't see the display horses so often, but the ones that competed are ones I judge relatively often in this country - the next show is May 18th so that will be the first "update". Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
2008/4/25 Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Same here. I had a young mare fracture a leg years ago (luckily she > recovered after 3 months in a plaster cast) and a friend's horse > actually broke her leg and had to be shot. Plus lots of cuts and bumps > and bruises, the odd suspensory ligament and so on. True, horses will find all sorts of ways to hurt themselves. > I don't think they would like being kept in bubblewrap much though. True, but we can still make careful choices for them. Mic, keep track of the people that were in the Icetolt and let us know in a year or so, how many of those horses are still sound. Next April, make a few phone calls and then report back to us how many of them have any lameness issues. I'm honestly curious about your fiindings... I've been pondering over this, and if I were an owner and my horse was suddenly mysteriously lame and I ACTUALLY was able to connect it to an Icetolt I participated in...I think I'd be too embarrased to admit it.. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Didn't he shoot his friend, and his friend apologized on TV for Dick > shooting him? Then there is the bumper sticker that circulated after this event. It said: "I'd rather go hunting with Dick Chaney than driving with Teddy Kennedy". . . -- Renee M. in Michigan (libertarian party)
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
2008/4/25 Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > i have been trying to pick a fight all day and nobody will haha > Janice-- Janice, you're behaving like some kind of snaggletoothed tigereither that or trolling for bait... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
2008/4/25 Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > And I hate dick Cheney. Didn't he shoot his friend, and his friend apologized on TV for Dick shooting him? I loved that news report. I still giggle when I think about it. Truth is stranger than fiction that's for sure. I gather that when Dick goes hunting now, he has all the secret service in droves around him, and an ambulance follows the whole crew ;)... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> Ah Janice, if only we could sit down and talk and you could tell us how you > really feel. Your post reminds me of one of my favorite movie lines in Bull > Durham where Kevin Costner tells Susan S what he believes in. i have been trying to pick a fight all day and nobody will haha Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
i will try and post some more things i hate later if i think of any. oh! I hate people who sell horses at auction. Ah Janice, if only we could sit down and talk and you could tell us how you really feel. Your post reminds me of one of my favorite movie lines in Bull Durham where Kevin Costner tells Susan S what he believes in. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On 4/25/08, susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And I don't think doing a 15 minute ice tolt is the > same as allowing your child to play in the street. It > would be more like allowing your child to ride a > skateboard. And I would think the ice studs in the > shoes would equate a helmet on the kid. > mmm, for me an analogy would be ... MAKING your kid ice skate as fast as it could and hoping it doesnt pull any tendons or anything or fall down and break a leg, which for a kid isnt life threatening, so maybe a better analogy to say MAKING a kid ice skate as fast as it can and hope it doesnt break its neck. Ice studs in the shoes wouldnt be the same as a helmet at all. they would be like heel caulks, grabbing the ice and torqueing the tendons etc. Look, I see bad stuff every day and turn my head. I cant even go two blocks without seeing something that appalls me. I just get used to turning my head. I am going to a biglick walking horse show tomorrow night in fact. There are other things there I enjoy watching a lot and some people there I enjoy visiting with. ANd I just pure love seeing horses, all kinds. I cant save the earth, I cant help any horses but what I can, now and then, do something for. But I would not do stuff like that to my horses. ANd I will speak out about how I feel about it. I just cant see how icetolting could be good for a horse, even for fifteen minutes, and thats how I feel. I watch rodeo and see the bucking horses and it makes my heart hurt, because I know they are afraid and mad at the world. But I watch PBR and love it because I know a bull bucking for 8 seconds one nite a week is not something that bothers them, in fact they seem pretty happy about it, arrogant, etc. They arent terrified. They are being bulls. Seems a good life to me. I'm sure plenty would disagree. But horses are so much more sensitive emotionally than cows. So much smarter. More kind and full of love. I grew up with cows. They dont love anybody. They just chew grass all day every day and moo. I honestly think calf roping is terrible, more terrible than PBR. Because the calfs are afraid and bawling. SO are pigs when they are in greased pig contests, I am against that. And I am against ice tolting because i believe it is making a horse do something dangerous, and they get used to doing what we ask so it is contingent upon us to ask them to do things that wont be a big risk to hurt them. I have a friend whose paso did the splits when a foot slid out in the back on asphalt as she was crossing a highway to get home and he pulled a tendon and she fell and tore all kinds of ligaments in her knee. Not a happy day for either one, and that is not as slick as ice. I also am deadset against people yahooing horses fast through deep mud or sand and I wont do it and I ask them not to do it or say something like "y'all dont do that because you can hurt your horse.." and they go yahoo and run off and leave me. So thats all I can do about it! But I know a pretty awesome totally lame mare right now that was ridden by a teenage girl repeatedly through deep sucky mud, even did turn and burns or rollbacks whatever they call them and everyone told her not to, she did it anyway, the horse is lame and has been on pasture rest two years so. this is how i feel. I am also very much opposed to taking a recovering horse thats been in the hospital recently out on a several hours ride in 90 degree heat, riding any horse in high heat/humidity if its not in shape and acclimated to it, and gaiting fast constantly on the trail without a break. Also I am against John Mccain for president and most zoos depress the crap outa me. also I hate men who have trophy wives. And I hate dick Cheney. and i cant even believe anybody in america would like george bush right now exceopt maybe some idiot who has more money than sense. I also believe abortion is preferable to having crack babies. thats about all i can think of right now. i will try and post some more things i hate later if i think of any. oh! I hate people who sell horses at auction. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
--- Nancy Sturm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> We seem to have more horses hurt playing in the safest pastures I have ever seen than in any other way.<< My friend's 3 day eventing horse broke it's leg in it's pasture at a trot. $8000 later, they had to put it to sleep because the same thing happend to him as happened to Barbaro. The broken leg was healing beautifully, but the horse foundered on the opposite leg. Never did any damage to itself on cross country courses, tho. And I don't think doing a 15 minute ice tolt is the same as allowing your child to play in the street. It would be more like allowing your child to ride a skateboard. And I would think the ice studs in the shoes would equate a helmet on the kid. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
I don't think they would like being kept in bubblewrap much though. Certainly not. . We have a sweet friend who keeps her warmblood babies in stalls because she is so afraid they will be hurt. Who knows what that level is protection is doing to their developing bodies and minds. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:46:24 -0700, you wrote: >Good point, Mic. We seem to have more horses hurt playing in the safest >pastures I have ever seen than in any other way. Same here. I had a young mare fracture a leg years ago (luckily she recovered after 3 months in a plaster cast) and a friend's horse actually broke her leg and had to be shot. Plus lots of cuts and bumps and bruises, the odd suspensory ligament and so on. I don't think they would like being kept in bubblewrap much though. ; ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>>> Accident and injury can and do happen anytime, anywhere. Sure, and small kids can get hurt in the house, in the bathtub, on the playground, or heck, even get hit by a meteorite, anything, anywhere...but that in no way makes it sensible for parents to allow their kids to play in traffic in the street. We use our common sense and go with the odds to minimize the greatest dangers. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> > - how would you know it was because of the 15 minutes on the ice and not > as a result of playing in the field the next day, or being ridden round > the lanes? Answer - you wouldn't. \ > Good point, Mic. We seem to have more horses hurt playing in the safest > pasture Yes, no way of knowing. . . But the point remains: Why take risks with one's horse that you don't have to? Intentionally riding on a slick surface with fast turns with grabbing icenails is being foolhardy with one's horse. Sorry, but it is. Frankly, I'm just astounded that folks are even trying to weigh how bad it *might* be, or defending it. . . It should be a no-brainer in my mind. Oh well. I'm done trying to talk sense into 'yall.Take your horses sky diving. ; ) -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
- how would you know it was because of the 15 minutes on the ice and not as a result of playing in the field the next day, or being ridden round the lanes? Answer - you wouldn't. Good point, Mic. We seem to have more horses hurt playing in the safest pastures I have ever seen than in any other way. My daughter's retired endurance horse hit his own suspensory playing in the pasture and had a year off then suffered a nasty puncture wound in his shoulder from a sharp object and had another year off. The only structure in the entire field was a wooden shelter, but they never found anything on it that could have caused that type of wound. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:18:00 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >So i question why tolting on ice for a short time with removable ice studs is >so much worse than 3 day eventing, endurance riding, cross country, carraige >driving etc. Or come to that, competition riding, trail riding, playing in the field or any other thing horses get up to. Accident and injury can and do happen anytime, anywhere. Horses have been ridden on ice in Iceland for a loong time, and I have not been able to find evidence of ANY injury as a direct result of being ridden on ice. If anyone can provide me with some, then PLEASE do so! To say horses get injured then it shows up weeks/months/years down the line is daft - how would you know it was because of the 15 minutes on the ice and not as a result of playing in the field the next day, or being ridden round the lanes? Answer - you wouldn't. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
and if you've read Stan Hirson's blog, http://www.hestakau p.com/, you will read where it's rare to see horses beyond their teens (I noticed this as well): Stan said: . . . In Iceland I have heard people marvel that a horse of 18 is still going. And in one case, a horse that is 23 is still being ridden for round-ups. But the competition stallion is going to be ridden for a few years and then used for breeding. There is always a newer and younger horse coming!" This sounds like the typical professional horse world in America too. Where you need to start ther horse at 1 1/2 years oldget it going for competition, and by the time it is 4 or 5 , its oldtime to sell to someone who wants to ride lightly. We do quite a few old performance horses here (Nu Cash sons and daughters , (a really big QH line), but they are 'old', have lameness issues way before 10. There is always another younger horse to work with. We have professioal trainers here who, in their world a 4 year old is old. no need to bother with them at that age. I do not condone the attitude.I am not sure where I stand with icetolts, except that I do not want to make a judgement on someone in regards of what they do with their horses, when it seems there are much more offensive things to target. Personally I would think that any horse in high end competion would suffer joint issues, or mabye injuries and those things would have an adverse effect on their long term soundness or productivity. So i question why tolting on ice for a short time with removable ice studs is so much worse than 3 day eventing, endurance riding, cross country, carraige driving etc. Skye
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>>>I understand your point and your analogy Skye, but really, its not the same. Hey no problem, I really do understand...I was feeling a little giddy that night, and Mics post was really interesting about the icetolt, and it brought up a lot of questions in my mind about what people ask their horses to do, things that we, the civilization really accept, like metal shoes on horses on asphalt pulling big carriges with people all day..talk about concussion. So it really brought up questions in my mind. Skye
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> More and more icetolts in Iceland (especially the big ones) are held > indoors. > > Mic > What a shame. They had the lesser of two evils going on IMO. But the trend seems to be Iceland attempts to adopt what the outside world is doing with horses I've noticed -- or at least their version of it.So, not too surprising they've started to move away from their own tradition regarding outdoor icetolts.That's too bad. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
well. Just wish they would have plain ol races! on dirt tracks. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:38:49 -0400, you wrote: > It's my understanding that in Iceland, on the lakes in the REAL icetolts, >they do go in a straight line. More and more icetolts in Iceland (especially the big ones) are held indoors. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>i wish they would do it in a long straight line. Speedracking too. > Janice-- Janice, It's my understanding that in Iceland, on the lakes in the REAL icetolts, they do go in a straight line.I still don't like the idea, but I DO think no turning is better. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
Seriously - I wish you (Renee), Wanda, Judy, Janice, Karen etc etc could have seen this show and the way the horses reacted. Mic, I'm an engineer. I've had enough physics, statics, and dynamics classes to kill most people of sheer boredom. The laws of physics apply equally to all masses: plant, animal and mineral. Nothing I could have seen in some flash-in-the-pan show would change the respect I have for the laws of nature. The horses may have escaped serious injury in this one event, but it doesn't change the fact that it was risky, and that the horses could still have long-term damage that may not show up until much later. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On 23/04/2008, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So I know in my heart, my soul, Lee was wrong about this in my case. > I don't believe icetolting is good for a horse, neither would rushing > thru deep sucky mud or sand or asphalt. If ice tolting never had a > curve maybe it would be a little better. You're right Janice, I have fewer problems with Ice tolts that happen on lakes rather than in these small hockey rinks... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
i wish they would do it in a long straight line. Speedracking too. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
i think more icelandic horses oughta be like Tivar if I asked jaspar to jump off a cliff he would get wild eyed and make that marble in the nose sound and JUMP. If I asked Tivar he would say no and if i tried to make him he would dump my a__ , i just somehow suspect he would... haha Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> > Seriously - I wish you (Renee), Wanda, Judy, Janice, Karen etc etc > could have seen this show and the way the horses reacted. > > As I said, I like to make up my own mind, just as I did with certain > forms of competition riding at the last WC, and I have. I did not see > any problem with the UK IceTolt. Period. If I had seen it, I may have thought the horses were ok with it, I may have thought it fun and exciting... look, there are things some do on here that others are just deadset against that I am ok with. Some are deadset against endurance riding. I have never formally participated in endurance riding, there arent any close to me but one I think... but I used to ride my horse fifty miles at a fast clip two and three days a week and enjoyed the heck out of it, and he seemed to also. he was in great shape, tip top shape, had good legs etc. unfortunately I was doing some irreparable damage to him saddlefit/back-wise, but for now, thats beside the point. The point is--- take for instance altering gait. Most on here don't believe in altering natural gait and these same ones of US, me too, on here, believe Lee Zeigler to be the foremost gait expert that ever lived... yet Lee believed a stepping pace should be cured. That it was hard on a horse. Since then I have come to sorta understand that some if not most of all horses that stepping pace dont do it so smooth as my Jaspar, who can do it effortlessly, endlessly, no jarring, its his gait of choice, very fluid, easy going, smooth etc. why on earth would it be hard on him... why on earth would i try and change it. Well I did try and change it, in the ways that Lee descibed, for two years. I did get a runningwalk out of him now and then, and a nice flatwalk. But any time i let up on it he would revert right back to his gait of choice. So I know in my heart, my soul, Lee was wrong about this in my case. I don't believe icetolting is good for a horse, neither would rushing thru deep sucky mud or sand or asphalt. If ice tolting never had a curve maybe it would be a little better. But I just cant see how a horse can go around a bend at any kinda speed at all without some torque going on. What I would want from you, is that you try and excercise diligence. Like I do at biglick shows. I watch for things, i take pics, I stand around at the hot dog stand and chat and when people say gosh that looks like its hard on a horse, and I say oh it IS!! They sore them, they hurt them, they nail shoes on over golfballs crammed into the frog so each step is agonizing... I just go on and on real cheerful and their faces start looking more and more horrified and then i say well, thanks, nice chatting and stroll away. We could be right, we could be wrong. But for me, I do what I can where I can to help horses in situations where I think they are in situations that arent good for them! and I think just our exposure to all these varying opinions on here make us more aware and more observant, and horses are helped by it more and more lately because of all of us! Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:31:19 -0400, you wrote: >But I still like ya. : ) Ditto. Just because we sometimes disagree doesn't mean we can't be friends! ; ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> Seriously - I wish you (Renee), Wanda, Judy, Janice, Karen etc etc could > have seen this show and the way the horses reacted.< Hi Mic, I can appreciate that you are comfortable with icetolts based on your experience at this show, and that you make up your own mind about things -- which I also appreciate. But it really wouldn't change my mind at all to see how the horses reacted at your show. I simply do not believe in riding horses on ice in a skaking rink. Im my mind, as a responsible horse owner and advocate for the Icelandic horse, it's pure foolishness. Period. But I still like ya. : ) -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On 23/04/2008, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seriously - I wish you (Renee), Wanda, Judy, Janice, Karen etc etc > could have seen this show and the way the horses reacted. Oh...I'm not disagreeing with how the horses reacted. Gusti would walk through fire if he thought it would please me. As his guardian though...there are certain things I just won't ask him to do. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:39:37 -0400, you wrote: >And what a different take / experience Heather had (viewing the recent show >in Vermont) than Mic did. It sounds like the show in Vermont was poles apart from the one in the UK - like the difference between a Big Lick competition and a normal horse show. Seriously - I wish you (Renee), Wanda, Judy, Janice, Karen etc etc could have seen this show and the way the horses reacted. As I said, I like to make up my own mind, just as I did with certain forms of competition riding at the last WC, and I have. I did not see any problem with the UK IceTolt. Period. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
- Original Message - From: "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I recall one gal several years ago arguing for the icetolts and her horse > not having any problem with it, but a year later was dead lame.< That's another thing. . . Is anyone really going to come forward after riding in these things (or several) and admit their horse is unsound later on??? And what a different take / experience Heather had (viewing the recent show in Vermont) than Mic did. I copy her post from 4/16 here: "I went to the iceshow in VT last month and I have to admit, I was horrified. I went because I just needed to see for myself. I'm not one to get overly upset by things but I felt what I witnessed was cruel. One stallion's legs went out right under him and he fell on his side. The rider got back on and continued. The stallion was clearly shaken and every time he passed that spot where he fell, he slowed right down. Many of the horses did some sliding and were trying hard to step carefully. The arena was also very small but that didn't stop them from trying to show the flying pace. None of the horses were able to do it because they just weren't comfortable. They did an extended trot instead. The trainers riding were all the well known ones that are living here in the states now. I'm sure many of you can figure out who they are. All I can say is, the studs clearly were not enough and these horses were forced to perform in a situation they were NOT comfortable with. I left the show feeling badly with a lot less respect to the riders/trainers. Heather" Now, Jason (Sigrun's American husband) touts himself as an Icelandic farrier having studied in Iceland for awhile to learn just what to do.So. . . he didn't check the horses performing and/or put the icenails on right or something that they were slipping??Or could it be even with icenails horses shouldn't be ridden on ice if at all possible? Why isn't this a no brainer? -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
- Original Message - From: "Skye and Sally ~Fire Island" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > My question is this. > > Has there been studies on horses with metal shoes driving carriges at a > trot on hard asphalt? Days on end for some of them. Hi Skye, I have often wondered that myself. . . They trot a lot and the concussion to their legs has to take a toll. I always feel so sorry for the carriage horses in the bigger cities. . . Gawd, what a life. > > Horses who are ridden across solid rock for endurance, trail rides etc. > (My horses are ridden across solid rock on a daily basis, very hard, solid > and unforgiving rockat least ice gives a little) I think as long as there's nothing on their feet that would "grab" and the horse is allowed to pick his/her speed and gait, you'd be okay. > > Have any studies been done on horses that tolt across ice (for short > perioods of time) Remember, they eat horses in Iceland. There have been studies done on the incidence of Spavin in Icelandic horses, however.Am I suggesting that spavin is caused from the occasional icetolt? No. Just that the breed has not "evolved" to be more resistant to such kinds of injuries. > > And why is it ok for a horse to do icetolt in Iceland , but no other > place? Icetolts started as a late winter gathering when people were likely feeling intense cabin-fever after the long, dark winter and wanting to socialize and have a little friendly competition with their horses.What they had to use were frozen lakes.It was what was available. From a cultural standpoint, I can completely understand how they came to be. Now, of course, it's a tradition and though I don't think they're very nice for the horses, I do respect it's their country and their tradition.However, it makes no sense in this country, to rent a skating rink when we have an abundance of indoor RIDING ARENAS which are large, with good footing MADE FOR RIDING HORSES at our disposal in which to show the horses. But Mic has brought up something that I hadn't thought about before and what I am now thinking is the REAL appeal of holding these events here. . . It's that old favorite curse that usually motivates people: MONEY. In Iceland, Icetolts began and more or less remain an open-air, friendly social event as a pre-curser to the riding season. Outside of Iceland, they've apparently taken on another form: a money maker.Well. . . I guess we will continue to see more of these events here then. Sigh. >Are their joints somehow protected there while on their homeland soil?< No, Judy can direct you to the Spavin studies done on the horses in Iceland. There are scads of horses in Iceland, and if you've read Stan Hirson's blog, http://www.hestakaup.com/, you will read where it's rare to see horses beyond their teens (I noticed this as well): Stan said: . . . In Iceland I have heard people marvel that a horse of 18 is still going. And in one case, a horse that is 23 is still being ridden for round-ups. But the competition stallion is going to be ridden for a few years and then used for breeding. There is always a newer and younger horse coming!" A horse going lame at 10, 12, 15 is not going to be around long to be counted.The Spavin study (at least the one I'm thinking of) was done mostly on horse skeletons. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
Hi Mic, First of all, I am sorry if I came on too strong. It IS a great thing that you reported what you saw and experienced and I hope no one will ever feel like they can't or shouldn't do that on this list -- even if it isn't something many will agree with. So, please accept my apologies if you felt you needed a flame suit (I hope not!) after my post.I DO want to discuss this further however, because you bring up some great points. So. . . I asked: >>What is the point of running horses on ice when there is perfectly good >>footing available for a show?<< Mic responded: > Well, for us in the UK, it got 1200 people to see Icelandics who otherwise > would not have. . . . So - the spectacle of it got people to come and > watch, people who may well go on to become Icelandic horse owners.< Okay, I can understand how encouraging these kinds of numbers must appear to those who sponsored this event. That IS an awesome turnout, especially when compared to the average 50-60 spectators at a major show. As you said, the "spectacle" of the icetolt was the attraction. It was entertainment When my sisters were in High School, (both of whom are in their 50's now) a big money maker for the athletic boosters was holding a "donkey basketball game" where alumni players played the current team and both rode little donkeys during the game. They had to turn people away at the door because the gymasium would be so packed with spectators -- waaayy more than for any normal game.People loved it -- found it immensely entertaining as the little donkeys would buck, run out from under their riders, and create general chaos and mayhem.. (Thankfully, to my knowledge, these events do no go on anymore.) It was immensely popular, but . . . was it a good promotion for basketball? Did it make people want to buy a donkey? No, probably not in both cases. There is a difference between entertaining people and promoting a breed. To me, the indoor icetolts are not creating a positive image for the breed AND especially those who own the horses (who would purposely run their beloved horse on ice for the sake of entertaining people?) any more than whoever used to supply the donkeys for those barbaric donkey basketball games was promoting donkeys. There's another side to these icetolts. I have read people making statements that somehow, Icelandics are "evolved" to handle themselves better on ice than other horses. This is simply misleading and well, stupid. They speak as if the horses themselves grow their own caulks for the winter or have some sort of different hoof structure which gives them more traction.. Take off those icenails and you will have horses moving like any other Equine over ice -- carefully, slowly, and gingerly! (I'm waiting for someone to rig up a Peter-Pan type harness for the horses and suspend them, they we can say they have more of a propensity towards flying than other equines. . . .) An analogy: Take someone born and raised for upteen generations in northern Canada. I would bet they get to be pretty comfortable driving in the winter time on snowy, slippery roads. But take away their four-wheel drive truck and tire chains and chances are, they will be no more adept at not going in the ditch than a California girl.Now, bring Janice, an upteen generation Southern girl up there and give her a four-wheel drive truck and some tire chains.She'd likely be nervous at first, but soon would find she too, could drive pretty well on snowy, slippery roads. It's all in the apparatus, not the genetics. And being that's the case -- does it prove or showcase anything about the breed to run them in a hockey arena? I don't think so. But, as you brought up, it does increase box office sales because it's like the circus coming to town. It's entertaining to people. It's amusing to people. But is beneficial to the breed? Beyond what I and others think of it from the standpoint of torquing the horse's joints when those icenails grab on: Is this good breed promotion? I personally don't think so, any more than donkey basketball games showcase donkeys well. Icetolts show nothing about the Icelandic horse, only than they have farriers capable of giving them good traction. And taken outside with regular footing, I think people could see and learn a whole lot more about the breed -- even if there's only 50 or 60 of them watching. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>>And why is it ok for a horse to do icetolt in Iceland , but no other >>place? Are their joints somehow protected there while on their homeland >>soil? No, the joints are not protected in Iceland. Why is it OK in Iceland and no other place? They can do what they want in their country with their horses. I think the discussion is that the icetolt can be potentially damaging to long-term soundness for the horses, so why would an owner take the chance? My horses are not disposable, so I wouldn't do it. Remember there is not a lot of "cause and effect" in regard to the horses in Iceland as the horses have been expendable and disposable. There is not a lot of reason to look for ways to fix or prevent problems. The horses have been fighting the bit for years and years, but no one has attempted to do anything about it or connect it to problems with the bit or heavy contact. The incidence of spavin is very high in Iceland. Could it be icetolts? The children in the Blue Lagoon did not connect the acts that they performed with the resultant pregnancy and birth of a child. Think about logic and cause and effect. Do we really need a study? It would be nice, but who would study it and who would pay for it. The icetolt in Britain would be a good place to start. Every horse at the icetolt could have had a baseline of radiographs taken, along with video of their movement, with thermographic recordings. And then followed up at specific intervals over the course of the next few years. But in the meantime, we do have basic knowledge that has resulted from experience, logic, and cause and effect. >From Adams Lameness: "Studs in shoes create a wrenching effect (torque) every time the horse lands which can cause immediate or longer-term joint damage. This force can often result in the swollen legs". Now, my own personal example is recent knee surgery. The original tear of the meniscus happened a year and a half ago, doing aerobics on carpeting at the church. I heard it tear / pop. But I've been able to walk and use it over the past year and a half. But it wasn't right, it would be uncomfortable, and at times when moving wrong, it made it worse. I recall one gal several years ago arguing for the icetolts and her horse not having any problem with it, but a year later was dead lame. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:07:49 -0600, you wrote: >I've had horses slip here during a particularly icy spell one winter. >Specifically Elska was sore for a few days. Did she have studs on though? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On 23/04/2008, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Does anyone actually KNOW, for certain, of any horse, anywhere, that > has ever suffered serious or permanent injury from being ridden on ice > with correctly fitted studs? I've had horses slip here during a particularly icy spell one winter. Specifically Elska was sore for a few days. I'm sorry, I just wouldn't consider slapping on studs and going for a ride in those circumstances. And I don't know anyone around here that would. It just isn't done. I've got two race horse trainers living right next to me and they train in all kinds of weather, everything except ice. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:13:26 -0500, you wrote: >he just goes >full bore, leaves flying whooo h having a blast... and its up to >ME to protect him from his own stupidity. I have a couple like that too - I wouldn't even think about riding them on any dodgy surface. The thinking horses are a lot more fun! (and a lot safer too) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:06:12 -0600, you wrote: >Okay...so drive back there and find him, and see how he's moving today. Well, I spoke to his owner Laura and she says he's absolutely fine, no problem whatsoever (she was rather surprised at my concern..) - and quite honestly, why shouldn't he be? One hind foot slid, what, maybe 3 inches? My horses have done that on the road before now, plenty of times. I think maybe people forget that horses strain tendons/damage joints/break legs/etc etc etc ridden on perfect footing or even unridden the field. Unless we wrap them in cotton wool and keep them in a padded stall all the time, nasty things can happen anywhere (and if we kept them in that padded stall they would die of boredom anyhow!). Does anyone actually KNOW, for certain, of any horse, anywhere, that has ever suffered serious or permanent injury from being ridden on ice with correctly fitted studs? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:45:50 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Not sure if you are aware but Sally and I are his owners now WOW You lucky pair! I could be really envious, he's such a super horse. I saw him several years ago in Iceland, and we tried to get a group of breeders together in the UK to buy him when he was for sale but couldn't manage it. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On 4/23/08, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:37:24 +0100, you wrote: > > >The only horse who slid - once > > I should have made it clearer - one foot on one horse slid once; it > sounds like he fell or something, and he didn't, not even close. > > Mic > my only concern with this is, like my stonewall, he is happy-go-effing-stupid. wont slow down for nothing. if my Jaspar or Teev comes up on terrain that is a possible threat to welfare, they slow, will look for and seek better footing. They let ME know the footing is bad. Here the bad stuff is often hidden beneath a foot deep layer of rotting leaves. But stonewall, oh no, he just goes full bore, leaves flying whooo h having a blast... and its up to ME to protect him from his own stupidity... My responsibility actually. Something I have learned is critical actually. Because I have seen people on horses bog down to where I honestly thought helicopters and cranes would have to get them out, people trapped beneath a floundering animal bogged up to the neck in black muck while seven or 8 people with ropes are pulling and shoving the poor thing out. I have been up to my waist in sand while jaspar was up to his nose making some sort of prehistoric groaning sound straining to get out. I dont take terrain lightly! But I do have that one silly horse that does... if I had ice, I think I would watch out for it, and like Skye pointed out, there are other surfaces you just have to watch out for, like asphalt. and just because a horse isnt limping doesnt mean his joint/tendon integrity hasnt been compromised. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
--- On Tue, 4/22/08, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:13:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >And why is it ok for a horse to do icetolt in Iceland , but no other place? >Are their joints somehow protected there while on their homeland soil? Hey Skye, I'll lend you my flamesuit if you like?! ; ))) Mic Thanks Mic, It can pull double duty and I can walk up closer to the active lava flow that is flowing into the ocean at this time! I guess I got a little giddy after riding Baldur earlier. Not sure if you are aware but Sally and I are his owners now. He is my riding horse, and is teaching me lots about riding, what a nice mellow guy. I wonder if I can ride in that flamesuit? Skye
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On 23/04/2008, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I should have made it clearer - one foot on one horse slid once; it > sounds like he fell or something, and he didn't, not even close. Okay...so drive back there and find him, and see how he's moving today. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:37:24 +0100, you wrote: >The only horse who slid - once I should have made it clearer - one foot on one horse slid once; it sounds like he fell or something, and he didn't, not even close. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:26:34 -0500, you wrote: >Naturally, on its own, how does a horse act when it comes up on an >icey patch. Yes, if in ordinary shoes or barefoot, but it was incredible how confident the horses were last weekend when they realised they were not slipping. The only horse who slid - once - was the one whose studs were in the wrong place. He was taken off straight away and the farrier changed the studs, and after that he was just as happy as the others. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> > Tell me something (this is to anyone that knows)are Icetolts a > huge thing or popular in areas where people normally experience the > ice and snow of a regular winter? well, wouldnt it be pretty hard to set up an ice tolt ring unless you had a regular icy winter? Here we have deep sucky mud, and even the most despicable horse people will tell you if you want to ruin a horse, ride him fast through deep sucky mud. Pulled tendons i think... I just watch and listen to my horses. If we come up on a bog and they start smelling the ground and balking and trying to walk through weeds at the edge, it may be a bad place to go fast thru. Naturally, on its own, how does a horse act when it comes up on an icey patch. Does it slow and walk like on eggs? Bad thing about sucky mud, is a horse will start trying to hurry out of it and thats when trouble starts a lot of the time. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> it would be like... us in florida having a show and having our twhbea > horses competing in areas set up to mimic Tennessee hills? > > Janice-- > > > No Janice that would be a trail trial in an arena with fake bridges and rives > to duplicate the outdoors. > > I understand your point and your analogy Skye, but really, its not the same. Because a trail trial is set up to duplicate the obstacles a person might run into on any trail ride anywhere, bridges, water courses, hills etc. A person in england or minnesota or florida would run into these things on the trail. But for instance, if you set up a trail obstacle course with an ice patch the southern horses would be at a disadvantage and if you set one up with deep sucky mud two feet deep the arizona horses would be at a disadvantage. My thought on setting up a competition to be like that in Tennessee for walking horses... my horses could not handle that. They would be ill equipped. and I say that not just as an opinion, but from experience, as a person who took my horse to the mountains and in only two days he was lame with a stone bruise because where we went was an area where horses HAVE to wear shoes... and there was loose shale, going down steep hills over loose razor sharp rock, crossing waterways with big round rocks covered in slimy algae. That was like being on another planet to my horses. Our waterways are either sandy or muddy. our trails are leafy and sandy with tree roots. Ialways look out for my horses in unusual conditions and try to prepare them with shoes etc. but honestly I was a nervous wreck in tennessee with those big flat shelf rocks that had edges like a razor blade... and when the horse went over them they would all shift and move and the horse would have to struggle for footing. Thats what I meant by tennessee conditions. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
2008/4/23 Skye and Sally ~Fire Island <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > And why is it ok for a horse to do icetolt in Iceland , but no other place? > Are their joints somehow protected there while on their homeland soil? I don't know. Maybe because they eat the injured ones? For the horses that slip and slide and fall...does anyone go and check them in a day or two and see whether they are stiff and sore? Tell me something (this is to anyone that knows)are Icetolts a huge thing or popular in areas where people normally experience the ice and snow of a regular winter? Or are these popular where the ice of winter would be considered a novelty? Where I live no one rides during icey conditions...unless well...they happen to cross an icy patch by accident. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:13:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >And why is it ok for a horse to do icetolt in Iceland , but no other place? >Are their joints somehow protected there while on their homeland soil? Hey Skye, I'll lend you my flamesuit if you like?! ; ))) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
--- On Tue, 4/22/08, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Sorry, there is no good icetolt, nor justification for one outside of > Iceland. > > -- Renee M. in Michigan it would be like... us in florida having a show and having our twhbea horses competing in areas set up to mimic Tennessee hills? Janice-- No Janice that would be a trail trial in an arena with fake bridges and rives to duplicate the outdoors. My question is this. Has there been studies on horses with metal shoes driving carriges at a trot on hard asphalt? Days on end for some of them. Horses who are ridden across solid rock for endurance, trail rides etc. (My horses are ridden across solid rock on a daily basis, very hard, solid and unforgiving rockat least ice gives a little) Have any studies been done on horses that tolt across ice (for short perioods of time) What are the damages to these horses? What is the outcome, their plight? How many rescue horses have come about becuase of these ice tolts? How many are put down? What horses have physical damage from these events. I could talk about 3 day eventing horses and what they have to go through to do that. BTW, I love to watch it, I do not have what it takes to do that, but I love watching the sport. I do know thart horses get injured every year from it. What are the hard core stats on injuries from icetolt? Injuries that never heal, ones that do, and how many horses are killed because of it. And why is it ok for a horse to do icetolt in Iceland , but no other place? Are their joints somehow protected there while on their homeland soil? Skye
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
i went to the alabama state horse fair one year when there was an icelandic breed demo. Alabama declares the racking horse as the state horse, you know. Well, the icelandics came out and there is an audience of thousands, and in huge gaited horse country, and the icelandics were not well gaited, one was hard pacing, one hard trotting, one saddleracking and one did a flying pace demo, they were from kentucky, he could not make it fifty yards without breaking gait. he would start hopping and half rearing because the man riding him would haul back on the reins when he started breaking gait. There was happy applause and much exclamation about how cute, how adorable, wow, they are supposed to gait, how cool is that then the alabama state racking horse champion entered the arena in the dark with one spotlight on him and he flew threw the doors in a full blown speed rack and circled the arena about five times going so fast, he had on a tux with tails and the tails flew straight out behind him and the crowd was launched to their feet just roaring, it was the coolest thing! horse and rider were so effortless. i think to demo horses it should be exciting and great fun for all. riders and horses. I can always tell when a horse is having a good time showing off! Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
Well, for us in the UK, it got 1200 people to see Icelandics who otherwise would not have. We've held British championships every year for a couple of decades and rarely get more than 50 or 60 spectators at best. So - the spectacle of it got people to come and watch, people who may well go on to become Icelandic horse owners. It was advertised primarily in the equestrian press, so a large majority of them were horse people. Great. All I can say is that if spectators are dumb enough to think that ice tolts are a cool thing to do with horses, I'd prefer that they NOT become involved with Icelandic's. I talked with another person recently who'd seen the typcial zooming-around demo at one of the expo's. That wasn't at all what she wanted in the horse. She'd talked to a friend who had been to one of the Equine Affair type deals, and her friend had told her that Icelandic's are hot and wild and don't have brakes. Of course Icelandic's have brakes - if they are encouraged to use them. And that didn't even involve claims of rewriting the laws of physics... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:16:28 -0400, you wrote: >What is the point of running horses on ice when there is perfectly good >footing available for a show? Well, for us in the UK, it got 1200 people to see Icelandics who otherwise would not have. We've held British championships every year for a couple of decades and rarely get more than 50 or 60 spectators at best. So - the spectacle of it got people to come and watch, people who may well go on to become Icelandic horse owners. It was advertised primarily in the equestrian press, so a large majority of them were horse people. As to the footing, it was interesting to me to see exactly how the horses went on the ice. The studs dug in around half an inch, with a little bit of forward movement (ie the holes were slightly slanting, not straight). It actually looked very much like the sort of print the horses make on firm sand. Here's some written feedback the organisers received today: RSPCA: We are very happy with everything we saw, how the horses were managed and found nothing that would concern us for another time. The horses look well cared for and safe on ice. Blue Cross Horse Ambulance service: If only all of our events were like this. It is unusual for us to be able just to sit down and enjoy the show. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
> > Sorry, there is no good icetolt, nor justification for one outside of > Iceland. > > -- Renee M. in Michigan > it would be like... us in florida having a show and having our twhbea horses competing in areas set up to mimic Tennessee hills? Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
>>> We had 1200 spectators who all seemed to enjoy it. We had an RSPCA >>> inspector >>> (who also enjoyed it) along with the Blue Cross horse ambulance in case of >>> emergencies Nice to have an ambulance on site...of course, with certain injuries, all the kings horses and all the kings men wouldn't be able to put them back together again. All I can think of is what Judy said the other day - all the claims of "protection" regarding the use of bell boots on a flat, level, dry track. It kills me to hear all the "just in case" defenses for bell boots (usually weighted) yet for ice tolts, you think it's ok to be reactive, not proactive. Very inconsistent...and very convenient. >>> I know this won't be a popular view, but I can't see it was a problem. It's Physics 101, Mic. These are basic laws of the universe, and they were NOT rewritten to make an exception for one breed of horse. It's that simple. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
All well and good Mic. . . But the question remains: What is the point of running horses on ice when there is perfectly good footing available for a show? And it's great that some of the horses were noseband-free, without boots, bitless and in a treeless saddle. They could have been this way on good footing too. And barefoot too perhaps. Sorry, there is no good icetolt, nor justification for one outside of Iceland. -- Renee M. in Michigan
[IceHorses] IceTolt in Britain
Finally recovered enough to write something Well, it was quite a surprise. First, no accidents, all horses and riders fine thank goodness. Second, the horses did NOT appear stressed (or at least no more than at any competition), several people didn't use boots or nosebands, one was bitless and treeless and all in all I was pretty pleasantly surprised. I felt several horses legs when they came off the ice - and a while afterwards - and there was no sign of trauma (swelling or heat). They took it steady on the corners, all of them - when one got a bit too enthusiastic the speaker (an Icelander) immediately told them to be more careful. They showed slow and medium tolt, with a bit of faster tolt (not full speed) on the long sides only. No sparklers/fire/other gimmicks. The first time they went on the ice, most of the horses were given a loose rein as they stepped down about 3 inches from rubber matting on to the ice itself. They all looked, but only one was at all concerned and apparently he's a horse that hates puddles so the owner wasn't surprised. Only one slipped at all (hind feet only) during the practise session, and he was taken straight off as he obviously wasn't happy. When his shoes were checked by the on-site farrier it turned out his studs had been put in the wrong place. We had 1200 spectators who all seemed to enjoy it. We had an RSPCA inspector (who also enjoyed it) along with the Blue Cross horse ambulance in case of emergencies, and a British Master Farrier, and a vet, on site all the time. I know this won't be a popular view, but I can't see it was a problem. There are photos on http://www.icetolt.co.uk/results.htm Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt / UK
> I'm going to the first UK icetolt next weekend - judging. I'll let you > know how it goes and then make up my mind one way or the other, Here's the flier for the UK icetolt: http://www.icetolt.co.uk/icehorses08b5.pdf and the newspaper article: http://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/sport/sporthome/display.var.2203708.0.0.php "A great night out for all the family" it says. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
>>I do not believe that a few minutes - once a year or less will cause long term damage in a fit horse. It only takes a second to rip a tendon or ligament or tear a muscle. The cruciate ligament in horses is not fixable. It's a death certificate. > I'm going to the first UK icetolt next weekend - judging. Bummer that the UK is doing this. >>>I'll let you > know how it goes and then make up my mind one way or the other, > never having been much good at taking anything on faith! ; ) Get some pictures and video. It will be good to have something to refer to later on. Also, study up on the concussive practices so that you know what to look for (one is the snapping of the front feet, another is the pop of the hocks). Judy
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
> By the way, I never noticed any of my horses "catching" Tivar's > three-gaitedness. Janice, has owning him "ruined" your other nicely gaited > horses? No, they all just wish they could trot like that :) Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
>>> wow...i think the person stated "in the vet world". the vet that you >>> may be referring to is not stupid, IMHO..she is a very bright woman. Raven, assuming for a minute that you and Janice ARE talking about the same "vet" - the one that I have in mind, and the same one that Mic named... how can you call someone who advises breeders not to check in on their pregnant mares "brilliant?" Even the soundest, best mares can having issues with individual pregnancies that won't result in breeding problems being passed onto their offspring - like an incorrectly presented foal that can possibly be turned before delivering. Maiden mares can have minor problems with their first deliveries. Human intervention can save many of those mares and foals. She once wrote to me that natural selection should take care of these issues - it's in one of the list archives. If a mare has a problem that is truly genetic that means she shouldn't be bred again, it's quite possible to save her life and never breed her again - should she really have to die a painful death just in the name of "tradition"? I think that's pretty barbaric and sadistic in this day and age -anything but "brilliant". The more obvious answer is simply never breed the mare again if there's a real problem. Mares can be perfect riding horses and there's no reason that a mare that's not suitable for breeding can't be a lovely and useful horse. I could never live with myself if one of my mares died a painful death that I might have easily prevented, or if a foal died due to my unwillingness to get out of my warm bed to go out and check on them. I've never heard of another person who claims to be a vet making such cold remarks. A "brilliant" vet - no, even normal, caring horse-owner with decent intelligence - should know that owning a less-than-breeding quality GELDING shouldn't affect a breeder's reputation for breeding. Yet, this person told me that having Tivar on my property - an ideal Icelandic in every way except for his gait limitations - was adversely affecting my reputation as a breeder, and that I should be ashamed to admit that I had him. That's also in list archives, and I'm sure many people remember these and other exchanges. She went on to say that Tivar should be eaten since tolt is not in his repertoire. I have a TOTALLY opposite motto - my motto is the same as some good dog breeders adopt - "if you don't rescue, don't breed." In my case, I literally try to "rehab" as much as rescue, but I'm very honored to have briefly owned Tivar. He's an Icelandic for all of us to be proud of, even if his gaits aren't perfect. There's more that makes this breed special than mere gaits - but even so, I do try only to breed horses with ideal gaits. By the way, I never noticed any of my horses "catching" Tivar's three-gaitedness. Janice, has owning him "ruined" your other nicely gaited horses? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:40:21 -0500, you wrote: > > >feeding the foal because she gave birth and her uterus came out with > >the baby. > > That's relatively common in sheep, and fairly common in cattle. I > would have thought the vet could have fixed it... ?? > > Horrid to see, though. > > Mic > that was the whole point, she was in a pasture situation, a herd situation, they went out to check and she had given birth some time before and it was too late. Then the vet came, said she needed to be taken to auburn or put down. They put her down. When she went to defecate the manure came out her vulva. Janice
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
>> You'd think someone who claims to be a vet wow...i think the person stated "in the vet world". the vet that you may be referring to is not stupid, IMHO..she is a very bright woman. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze http://www.myspace.com/iceponygoddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:40:21 -0500, you wrote: >feeding the foal because she gave birth and her uterus came out with >the baby. That's relatively common in sheep, and fairly common in cattle. I would have thought the vet could have fixed it... ?? Horrid to see, though. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:33:32 -0700, you wrote: >Or do they step gingerly, picking their way for the most part? They are happy to run around if they are wearing ice nails, apparently. I've not seen it - never been to an icetolt - but a friend who went to one in Holland said the horses were allowed loose on to the ice before it all started and they seemed to love it as they felt secure on it. I'm going to the first UK icetolt next weekend - judging. I'll let you know how it goes and then make up my mind one way or the other, never having been much good at taking anything on faith! ; ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
I know someone who just had to have a mare put down and is bottle feeding the foal because she gave birth and her uterus came out with the baby. no one was around, then she was all torn and when she went to the bathroom it came out the wrong place. I was shocked to hear about it! she was a very well bred expensive quarter horse. she suffered a lot because she didnt die! janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
RE: [IceHorses] Icetolt
Hi Karen, >>>And, as Judy questioned, how often do Icelandics really RUN on ice when left to their own devices? Unless their lives are in danger? Or do they step gingerly, picking their way for the most part? That would be more like it. I think the telling statement in what the 'vet' said was "diagnosed" - not being diagnosed with a problem doesn't mean it can't exist and we know spavin exists. >>> Hey, but what do you expect from me - I'm proud to say that I check in on my pregnant mares several times a day when they are due, and we'll even pull a foal if there is any doubt about the mare's or foal's survival during delivery... Would agree with you on that one with one note of caution... I have definitely pulled foals during delivery but We lost two foals last year, one foal had a leg back, really back and the others pelvis were caught on the mares pelvis and could not get out. The vet felt that had we tried to pull the foals the mares would most likely died as well because of the circumstances so it, like everything, it is not black and white. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
>i didnt mention any names Mic! But it was pretty obvious! ; ) >it. but thats just me... and usually gets me in trouble! > Me too. Maybe we should both have "Permanent Foot In Mouth" tshirts... Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:44:02 -0400, you wrote: > > > You'd think someone who claims to be a vet > > The person writing did not claim to be a vet, but "in the Vet world". > Seriously, I don't think there's any way Andrea Fiddlinvet would > write crap like that - she may be difficult for some people to get on > with, she may hold very strong views that many of us don't agree with, > but she's neither illiterate nor stupid. > > Mic > i didnt mention any names Mic! But I will say i think its a wonderful statement about this list that you are allowed to post something nice about someone and take up for them no matter what others think! This list, supposedly so harshly moderated, allows this, isnt it wonderful? Thats why I love this list, it isnt phoney! You can take up for a friend thats being attacked unfairly, here. And also a wonderful thing that you DID take up for her. It really sucks when you are being attacked in just post after post after post, not just one or two like you perceive happened here, but dozens and dozens day after day, and no one speaking on your behalf is allowed a post to go thru, and then people you THINK are your friends are eerily silent. But i would like to say this--- I dont make stuff up about people I dont like, I dont have to! I usually dont like them for a good reason! And if I had time or inclination I can most always prove what I say is the truth. no matter how bizarre... I have always thought a lot of you and if I perceived you were being attacked I would tend to take up for you publicly, forthrightly, openly. and I would take up for the unpopular person too, like you have now, if i cared about them. But like you, i probably would keep my mouth shut and not let out a peep if I didnt really think all that much of someone or their opinions! but i sure wouldnt be phoney about it. but thats just me... and usually gets me in trouble! Janice
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:44:02 -0400, you wrote: > You'd think someone who claims to be a vet The person writing did not claim to be a vet, but "in the Vet world". Seriously, I don't think there's any way Andrea Fiddlinvet would write crap like that - she may be difficult for some people to get on with, she may hold very strong views that many of us don't agree with, but she's neither illiterate nor stupid. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
>> response to windgait So wrong. Being in the Vet world ,there is >> absolutely no statistical data to support your supposition. The >> diagnosis of spavin in Icelandics is virtually nonexistant home and >> abroad . Period . How shallow to think horses breed and breed on Ice >> for thousands of years would have a problem doing a Ice routine for >> 15 minutes . One of the major problems with pseudo- horse people is >> their total uneducation. Don't think any one with an education would >> buy your theory. Your agenda is not needed in Hanover. hahhaha i have a pretty good guess who this one is. Yeah, I betcha. Probably the same one who said that breeders shouldn't check on their pregnant mares. Probably the same one who said my breeding program is questionable because I allowed a three-gaited gelding on my property...as if three-gaitedness is contagious. The same one who calls BTW, this is a new claim - that they were bred for THOUSANDS (plural?) of years on ice? The standard line is that they were isolated in Iceland for ONE thousand years, but I think there's evidence to indicate even that's questionable. And, as Judy questioned, how often do Icelandics really RUN on ice when left to their own devices? Unless their lives are in danger? Or do they step gingerly, picking their way for the most part? You'd think someone who claims to be a vet would know that horses don't "evolve" with special adaptive traits in a period of a mere thousand years. Certain traits can be selectively eliminated very quickly - even in a single generation, but adaptive evolution takes many, many, many years - tens of thousands to millions - to happen. Hey, but what do you expect from me - I'm proud to say that I check in on my pregnant mares several times a day when they are due, and we'll even pull a foal if there is any doubt about the mare's or foal's survival during delivery... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
response to windgait So wrong. Being in the Vet world ,there is absolutely no statistical data to support your supposition. The diagnosis of spavin in Icelandics is virtually nonexistant home and abroad . Period . How shallow to think horses breed and breed on Ice for thousands of years would have a problem doing a Ice routine for 15 minutes . One of the major problems with pseudo- horse people is their total uneducation. Don't think any one with an education would buy your theory. Your agenda is not needed in Hanover. hahhaha i have a pretty good guess who this one is. Wonder how she ever got out of vet school with all her misspellings and slaughter of the english language. but maybe shes lying about being a vet... and this one: Maybe your next diatribe will be the caging of Elephants at the > zoo. Get a life. > haha, i already wrote a letter to the head of the New orleans zoo telling him how sad I was to see such majestic animals stand in a small cage and sway neurotically from side to side for hours at a time. He answered and gave me a run down of their expansion plans and at the time the elephant compound was next on the list to be made into a large acreage natural type enclosure. I dont just sit around and whine when I see things I dont think are right, I do what I can to make a difference. and I know a horse is "bred" in iceland and the "breed" is icelandic. and I are nut even ah vet ner do I play wun on teev janice Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
> http://www.wickedlocal.com/hanover/fun/x224949997 > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=6C_JM9fOnMk Here are the comments on the news article: beautiful horses Absolutely devine picture. The reason we moved to the area was to move from the heavy suburban environment to peacefulness. This is peaceful. Love the horses. best part of the Mariner Thank you for taking the time to shoot pictures of our Town. So many memories of Horses in Hanover. In our hustle bustle world, it is relaxing to see such beautiful animals. thank you German My family is from Germany and we had Icelandic Horses in Germany. Incredible animals. The best riding horse I was ever on. I am thrilled to know there is an Icelandic Farm in Hanover. Riding Ice It's not the best thing to do with horses, to ride on ice, especially at speed. It is very hard on their joints. Most people are very careful with riding at speed on hard surfaces. Why would this be done at the horse's expense as a spectator sport? Beautiful Horses It is so nice to see and read an article that showcases what Hanover use to be. The thought that we have these majestic horses in our town brings back memories of days passed, when a lot of horses were in our town. Thank you to Four Winds Farm in bringing to our town such a beautiful horse farm. Horses that are natural on ICE Icelandics are naturals on ICE, Iceland is a Country of Ice and the horses live on Ice 9 months of the year. Joint issues are not present in these type horses. Riding on Ice is a common sport in Iceland, Sweden and Germandy. These smaller, rugged horses that the Vikings rode are a natural to the climate in New England. Sure footed, the Icelandic thrives on snow and Ice. Great horse. JDGArrish We have been to Germany many times and the Icelandic horses are superb! We saw quite a few in the Goetesburg area. When I was growing up un Hanover, no one had heard of these. It is good to see them here. Horses in Hanover Driving into Town Hall area and down 139..incredible. We have loved Briggs and their horses and foals for years. Your a welcome addition and your farm is beautiful. We need to maintain a charm to Hanover and I am thankful to those who can and do. windgait Riding on ice is VERY tough on horses' joints, and doing it at speed, while having to balance a human's weight it just crude. Why? For entertainment? There is no such thing as a horse being bred to run on ice. Icelandic bones, bones, muscles, tendons and ligaments function just as any other breed's do. It's interesting to note that horses born and raised in Iceland where this sport is common seem to have a much higher incidence of bone spavin than their USA born counterparts who are not subjected to this kind of riding/training. Please don't suport this cruel practice. We have plenty of ways to enjoy our horses without risking their long-term soundness. response to windgait So wrong. Being in the Vet world ,there is absolutely no statistical data to support your supposition. The diagnosis of spavin in Icelandics is virtually nonexistant home and abroad . Period . How shallow to think horses breed and breed on Ice for thousands of years would have a problem doing a Ice routine for 15 minutes . One of the major problems with pseudo- horse people is their total uneducation. Don't think any one with an education would buy your theory. Your agenda is not needed in Hanover. Owner of a horse with spavin ...One of the major problems with pseudo- horse people is their total uneducation ABSOLUTELY! Isn't anyone doing any research on the problems created by horses working on hard surfaces? Are you a vet? IceRyder You said: "The diagnosis of spavin in Icelandics is virtually nonexistant home and abroad ." Eidfaxi magazine, Issue 4, 1997, had an article entitled "Spavin is a Serious Problem in Icelandic Horses" subsequent to a conference to discuss health issues in the Icelandic Horse of which spavin was a large part. There is also a book which contains several studies about Icelandic Horses and spavin: Bone Diseases of the Saga Horse by S. Bjornsdottir; and from Holar: Culling rate of Icelandic horses due to bone spavin. Thank you ,Lori, for helping to keep the town a good memory for all of us,young and old. Your animals look well fed and well groomed. Your joy in their well-being is obvious. They sure aren't running from you in the picture! Vi ryerson To the undercurrent of Hanover Any one can look on line , regarding any disorder. Those of us who work with such disorders know that the causative reasons for certain disorders in animals is unknown. But one factor is certain in "spavin" it has a genetic component. As such with this genetic component, horses exported to this country undergo testing and are not exported if they have certain conditions. And Spavin has "no correlation with an animal on Ice" nor has there been a study that makes this correlation.. All horse breeds can acquire this "
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:23:11 -0400, you wrote: >The screen said, >"Programme not available in your country". : ( Oh bother. It shows Iris Ashman in Norfolk, UK, practising for next weekend's icetolt at her local icerink. She has a silver dapple stallion called Columbus, German bred, who has never been on ice, so she went along to the public skating session at her local rink to show him the set-up, and the local TV station did a little piece on it. It's actually rather nice - Columbus is tolting calmly and happily round, with lots of little girl skaters following in his wake, with huge grins and giggles. He doesn't have exaggerated action, he's wearing the lightest weight over-reach boots you can get, he's going pretty slowly, and both horse and rider look like they are having a blast. It's not all flash and fire (thank goodness), but it's still a really nice demo of what an Icelandic horse is like - he's a stallion, it's for sure his first time seeing an ice rink, he's on his own, and he's completely calm and relaxed. The ice rink manager comes on and says although they've never had a horse at the rink before (!) he's been very happy to see this one. Apparently the ice is just under 1 inch thick over a rubber sheet on a wooden base. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
The screen said, "Programme not available in your country". : ( -- Renee M. in Michigan - Original Message - From: "Mic Rushen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt > Another view of IceTolt: > > http://www.itvlocal.com/anglia/news/ > > On the little screen in the centre you have to watch a short advert > first but you can then drag the moving arrow or fastforward through > the > news till about 26 minutes. > > Mic > > > Mic (Michelle) Rushen > > --- > Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: > www.solva-icelandics.co.uk > --- > "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes" > > > > > IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses > > "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, > contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and > unrealistic." > > "All truth passes through three stages. > First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer > > > [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com > [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com > [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo > [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.12/1374 - Release Date: > 4/11/2008 4:59 PM > >
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
Another view of IceTolt: http://www.itvlocal.com/anglia/news/ On the little screen in the centre you have to watch a short advert first but you can then drag the moving arrow or fastforward through the news till about 26 minutes. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Icetolt
On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yeah, let's do more icetolts... NOT. > > http://www.wickedlocal.com/hanover/fun/x224949997 > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=6C_JM9fOnMk > oh that video is ba!!! horrible! janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
[IceHorses] Icetolt
Yeah, let's do more icetolts... NOT. http://www.wickedlocal.com/hanover/fun/x224949997 http://youtube.com/watch?v=6C_JM9fOnMk Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
