Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:34:47 -0800, you wrote: That is why WE use them. We don't use browbands or throatlatches on our and so we use dropped noseband BUT they are not tight - our horses can always eat crunchies and carrots very easily. Likewise. Mostly ours are so loose we don't ever fasten or unfasten them, just slip them on over the chin. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On Dec 7, 2007 2:36 PM, Laura Khurana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So...why is it that I only hear it said within Icelandic circles that the dropped noseband is only for steadying the bit in the horse's mouth? I thought it was so that the bridle would stay on when I fell off ...:) hahahaha a good one. janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding / Open Mouths
Hi Judy, When the horse ventroflexes, if too much, he can have kissing spines. That would hurt. Interesting thought. I know lots of non gaited horses with kissing spine but don't actually know of any gaited horses with it.Kissing spine has also become a rather broad diagnosis (the way navicular can be for non-specific foot lameness). There is some thought that many many horses have kissing spine and depending on how they are worked function quite well. The sidepulls may also be too tight, if fitted by the icelander-style method of fitting a noseband... also if the sidepull is fitted normally with room, that room gets taken away with heavy contact, I don't fit my sidepulls tightly and with the jowel strap you don't need to have help from the nosepiece to keep it in place. But there is no question that if a horse has sharp points on their molars then any kind of hackamore or halter can cause discomfort. I would think there is some expectation of being pulled on if the mouth opens but I can't be sure. It is interesting that so many rodeo bucking horses open their mouths - I was trying to think if I have seen it in both saddle bronc and bareback bronc?? They don't all but some certainly do. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
So...why is it that I only hear it said within Icelandic circles that the dropped noseband is only for steadying the bit in the horse's mouth? I thought it was so that the bridle would stay on when I fell off ...:) Laura
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Hi Laura, So...why is it that I only hear it said within Icelandic circles that the dropped noseband is only for steadying the bit in the horse's mouth? That is why WE use them. We don't use browbands or throatlatches on our and so we use dropped noseband BUT they are not tight - our horses can always eat crunchies and carrots very easily. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding / Open Mouths
I have seen horses open their mouths without a bit - actually even with a neck ring I have seen it once or twice - have never gotten a photo. I've seen it with Icelandics but other breeds as well. Robyn, why do you think the horses would be opening their mouths in the cases that you have seen? Judy
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Janice, You state that the horse never gets release with a dropped noseband. Are you saying that the horse feels no release when the pressure on the reins (thus the bit and mouth) is softened? I thought about what you said, and realized that the horse doesn't ever feel complete release even if there is no nose band. The bit is still in the corners of the mouth and across the tongue. When you are riding a horse there is always pressure on his back, and there is pressure on his sides even if your leg is draped softly on his sides. I don't see that one can ever give total release when riding. Why do you feel that a dropped noseband is inherently cruel? Are using keepers on a full cheek bit cruel too? I don't see how just holding or steadying the bit in the horse's mouth is more cruel than using a bit at all. If you can explain it in a scientific way on the mechanics of dropped vs no dropped, I would reconsider my opinion. Facts, though, not opinion or emotion, are needed for your argument. [moderator's note: please use email list netiquette when posting to the list, by deleting the previous post from the bottom, or only quoting a line from the previous post and putting your response below that quote; thanks]
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Hi Christine, Janice, You state that the horse never gets release with a dropped noseband. Are you saying that the horse feels no release when the pressure on the reins Not Janice but what I would say is that dropped nosebands in themselves are not bad, we use them, but how tight you have them is what really prevents there from having release. Same goes for contact on the reins - depends on how much pressure the rider has on the reins. Many western reins are weighted and so even a loose rein feels like contact. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding / Open Mouths
Hi Judy why do you think the horses would be opening their mouths in the cases that you have seen? I don't really know - they weren't necessarily horses that I had seen do it with a bit. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding / Open Mouths
On 06/12/2007, Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Judy why do you think the horses would be opening their mouths in the cases that you have seen? I don't really know - they weren't necessarily horses that I had seen do it with a bit. I'm curious. When a horse is ventroflexed harshly, is it possible that the mouth is opened as a reflex reaction? Are there muscles that would cause that to happen when a horse is forced to 'star gaze'?? Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Are using keepers on a full cheek bit cruel too? My understanding is that the keepers on a full-cheek bit are to prevent injury to human bystanders, not for anything related to the horse. I had the sleeve of my tee-shirt ripped open when my old QH reached over to itch his face on me once, before I started using keepers. I fail to see any comparison to between keepers on a full-cheek bit versus a dropped noseband. The dropped noseband has one purpose: to keep the horse's mouth shut. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1173 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 9:29 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Not Janice but what I would say is that dropped nosebands in themselves are not bad, we use them, but how tight you have them is what really prevents there from having release. Same goes for contact on the reins - depends on how much pressure the rider has on the reins. Many western reins are weighted and so even a loose rein feels like contact. yes, exactly Robyn. If the noseband is digging in and across the bit so that it shoves it tight into the corners there is no release ever. In a normal bit and nose band there is release. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Keepers also put pressure on the poll. My question was not about the purpose of a dropped noseband, but about the issue Janice raised about release. CJ
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 12/6/07, Christine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keepers also put pressure on the poll. My question was not about the purpose of a dropped noseband, but about the issue Janice raised about release. CJ did my answer make sense? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
I don't see how just holding or steadying the bit in the horse's mouth is more cruel than using a bit at all. You know, one thing I have to hand the competitive dressage crowd. I've heard many well-known dressage trainers put it this way: the only purpose of a dropped noseband is to keep the horse's mouth shut. I think that sounds somewhat harsh, but I have to respect people who are at least direct and honest. I believe that the Icelanders picked up the use of dropped nosebands from the Germans probably in the early 1970's, and thus you might even say that there is a common source for its use in Iceland, and in dressage. So...why is it that I only hear it said within Icelandic circles that the dropped noseband is only for steadying the bit in the horse's mouth? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1173 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 9:29 PM
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Karen, I did not say that the only purpose of the dropped noseband was to steady the bit. I wasn't trying to be dishonest as you seem to imply. I was commenting on the difference in RELEASE between a bit with and without the dropped noseband. Besides keeping the horse's mouth shut, it does steady the bit and hold it. However the noseband doesn't have to be tight and I am not advocating for tight nosebands. I'm not necessarily a proponent for dropped nosebands, Sometimes I use one and sometimes I don't. I don't se it as cruel in the way that I use one. CJ [moderator's note: please use email list netiquette when posting to the list, by deleting the previous post from the bottom, or only quoting a line from the previous post and putting your response below that quote; thanks]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding / Open Mouths
I'm curious. When a horse is ventroflexed harshly, is it possible that the mouth is opened as a reflex reaction? Are there muscles that would cause that to happen when a horse is forced to 'star gaze'?? That could be. Let's think about this: The gaited horse has somewhat loose tendons and ligaments. This can be a good thing, and it can also be a bad thing. When the horse ventroflexes, if too much, he can have kissing spines. That would hurt. Would he open his mouth because of it? If he ventroflexes because of the weight on his spine, that's one thing. If he ventroflexes because the rider is pulling him into that position, that's another thing. Forcing the neck into a crammed position may also force the head to squash all of the organs and glands in the neck. That could cause the horse to open his mouth. If there's not enough room for his tongue to lay flat because his throat has been compressed from constant or too much contact, he may have to open to relieve the tongue. For the horses that may have opened their mouths with a sidepull the above may also apply. Too much contact, too heavy contact, constant contact, there's no relief, bit or no bit. The sidepulls may also be too tight, if fitted by the icelander-style method of fitting a noseband... also if the sidepull is fitted normally with room, that room gets taken away with heavy contact, and the sidepull can dig into the skin, and probably doesn't feel very good after a while on the bones of the nose and jaw (not to mention any points of wayward teeth) (and this would be worse with the sidepull fitted tightly in the first place). Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Judy, do you mind if I forward this on to one or two people? Let me know what your people think Well, I've sent it to the President of FEIF (along with a quote from his welfare letter) and the entire FEIF sport committee. It will be interesting to see if I get any reply at all... Mic, any response from anyone on this? Judy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:10:17 -, you wrote: Mic, any response from anyone on this? No, not a thing. I'm not surprised - disappointed, but not surprised. However, one good result - I went to a show at the weekend, and there was not one Icelandic bit used with a flash noseband. One competitor used a tom thumb with a flash (but used it well and the horse was not resisting at all), another used the same combination and the horse was not so happy, but it's a big improvement on the last show. There was a lot of discussion on the GB list about Icelandic bits used with flashes - seems like some of it penetrated. Interestingly, any horses that were not shod at the show a month ago are now shod. We've had a lot of wet weather, and a farrier I was chatting with said many of his clients who normally ride barefoot can't at the moment as there horse's feet are so soggy and soft. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
was not one Icelandic bit used with a flash noseband. One competitor used a tom thumb with a flash (but used it well and the horse was not resisting at all), another used the same combination and the horse was not so happy, but it's a big improvement on the last show. There was a lot of discussion on the GB list about Icelandic bits used with flashes - seems like some of it penetrated. Wooo-h!!! Great! Interestingly, any horses that were not shod at the show a month ago are now shod. We've had a lot of wet weather, and a farrier I was chatting with said many of his clients who normally ride barefoot can't at the moment as there horse's feet are so soggy and soft. Well, that's OK. If they have to wear shoes for good reason, that's OK. I'm so glad to hear that there is progress being made in the show arena. Good for you, Mic, for getting things moving in a better direction! Judy
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
Mic It is done differently in the other classes: Deductions A deduction of 0.5 - 2.0 can be given for: transitions carried out too early or too late slow tölt is too fast bad riding (i.e. unbalanced, fixed hands on the saddle) rough aids (eventually a yellow card) So it is in the interest of the competitive rider to be a 'better rider'. If all judges follow this is another matter! John --- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:58:42 -0400, you wrote: Now whether it should be part of the judging is another whole issue. In the FIPO classes for youth and novices, a mark is given for the rider's seat and aids. I would like to see that happen in the main classes too. (nothing to do with horse conformation - that's a whole other subject) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
How do you disagree and then maintain your stance when people start calling you names just for having a different belief? you look at pictures like this: http://gallery.mac.com/jtfreeman/100035/DPP_0225/web.jpg Or this. There's a big discussion going on at the German icelist, about the same subject. This is a preview of an article in one of the German horse magazines, taken at the WC. It's not just here than people are getting upset. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes attachment: problemruna.jpg
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
So it is in the interest of the competitive rider to be a 'better rider'. If all judges follow this is another matter! That's the problem, isn't it? We've all seen some horrible riding which is totally ignored. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
It's the presentation Will anyone ever see that some of their angry, ill informed comments on this forum and repeated on the Eidfaxi site will not actually help the aim of treating the horses in a better way. You can have a good message you can have a great message but its the way you all present it that will make the difference. Already on another list, which some people here would have said would be completely opposed to what this list says, people have agreed with many of the things Judy said. On another list a person posts that there is a debate in Germany about 'better riding' ( but that's in German so it doesn't count). In the UK both Mic and I know that most people want to ride their horses better. Here where I live in Sweden I have been to many competitions - I have yet to see anyone that deliberately mistreats any horse ( yes there will be some somewhere). Sometimes in a competition a person does the wrong thing -and people in the crowd do not like it. What there maybe is a lack of education about what is the right thing, the kindest thing and the best thing. I utterly refute that the vast majority of people here are not open to listening, seeing and putting into place a better way of doing things - they just need to know what it is. The vast majority of people do not make money from horses - they have them because they love them even if they compete with them and only want to do the best for them. If I was one of the people that this list wishes to 'educate' and I looked at some of these postings I would simply not bother to look again due to the ignorance of some of them. Unfortunately I would then miss out on much of the reasoning and comment on Judy's main posting having categorised it all as rubbish. Take the comment below: The poster gets the name of the double world champion wrong. She assumes that a Norwegian has a perfect grasp of English and can express anything straight after having competed in a world final and having a microphone shoved under his nose. He didn't thank his horse - which I suspect does not understand English or Norwegian. This major poster on the site is happy to criticise a person who she has not met, does not know, and has no idea about how he trains horses or people. So, as a competition rider, after reading that post do I think the rest of the information here is going to be a value? Once again it's all in the presentation Posting: I watched that video again this morning, and at the end, they interviewed the man, Stian Petursson, who won the WC T1 title on Jarl. The interviewer asked him if he had anyone to thank. He thought a minute and said that was difficult. When asked what he was thinking at the end, he said something about telling people who are going for the gold not to give up, and then said something about being surprised to win the second title, since the frontrunner had thrown a shoe. I couldn't help but notice that he never mentioned the horse, or gave him any credit. It was all about riders
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
Back to the education then And FEIF has been doing work on this and yes it does take time getting 17 countries to agree... John --- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So it is in the interest of the competitive rider to be a 'better rider'. If all judges follow this is another matter! That's the problem, isn't it? We've all seen some horrible riding which is totally ignored. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:08:54 -, you wrote: And FEIF has been doing work on this and yes it does take time getting 17 countries to agree... Bit like herding cats. Seriously though, I think a major part of the problem is that many people just do not see there is a problem. And that includes the FEIF Sports committee, our own Sport leader and Chairman, most of the judges, and many of the sport riders. It's not that people are trying to cover up the poor horsemanship that is certainly present - they just do not recognise it. Therefore, they do not recognise that as an organisation FEIF needs to do something about it. And unfortunately, the way some of the people on this list have acted in the past (from the best of intentions) has alienated some of those best placed to make a difference. Much as we might like to think otherwise, at the end of the day this is just an email list read by few people outside the US, with relatively few members, most of them unable or unwilling to actually participate in national or international matters where their voices would be heard by a larger majority. I still believe the only way to really make a difference to Icelandic horses across the world is from within FEIF. It's all very well saying we should not support the organisation, but it's the worldwide one for Icelandic horses, and we will effect far more horses from inside than if we simply play in our own little patch. It took being off the scene for several years, then attending the WC, for me to truly recognise the problems. That's in spite of reading this list since it was first created in about 1995 by Christophe - and I'm pro-natural methods, bitless/shoeless/treeless etc etc etc. How do we propose to effect all those thousands of people who are dedicated sport riders (and spectators!) who see nothing really wrong with today's riding? Diatribes, bitching, hysterics and patronising comments won't cut much ice with them. We need calm, logical reasoned arguments, and a good case for change made through the proper channels. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
He didn't thank his horse - which I suspect does not understand English or Norwegian. This major poster on the site is happy to criticise a person who she has not met, does not know, and has no idea about how he trains horses or people. So, as a competition rider, after reading that post do I think the rest of the information here is going to be a value? Once again it's all in the presentation John, my posts here aren't always about CHANGING the way things are. Sometimes they are about UNDERSTANDING the way things are, and that's a big difference. The posts simply can't be aimed to be equally effective to the people on this list (who share common values for the most part) as they are for people in other cultures, speaking other languages with whom our values may be quite different. Sure, changing the rules is a big goal when there are abuses involved. But, for a lot of us, it's a HUGE undertaking simply to try to get a grasp on how values can be so different in different countries...or in this case, with so many people who ride Icelandic's competitively. That Stian didn't thank Jarl was just one clue...but that the other guy didn't dismount the horse to check the hoof until he was well outside the arena, and then he smoked, and acted totally unconcerned? And that Eidfaxi didn't bother to name Jarl in that article, but only listed the rider's name? When I think about it, I've never felt so outside of any horse culture as I feel outside the Icelandic horse culture. I such a HUGE divide from my world to theirs that I'm not sure it's worth trying to change. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in the USA, at least not with people like us. The horse always gets named and credited, or it does most of the time. It's about the horse, not about winning, so we're coming at this from hugely different perspectives. If we are debating whether to try to change things or to withdraw from this battle, don't you think that's critical to see how much common ground we have? Did you ever hear the old poker player's saying - you have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. Sometimes, in certain circumstances, we can hold on and try to change things, but other times we have to simply walk away and find a more productive use of our time. I don't know what's right here, but unraveling the cultural differences may give us insight. Gosh, we've gotten so many lectures in the past for not understanding the way things are done in Iceland, or how things are done in Icelandic showing. I think these are huge clues of how dramatically different our values are. We can change rules MAYBE, but we can't change the values of other cultures... I simply don't know how I might present that any differently. It's just what it is. Honestly, I don't aim my posts to be read by competition riders. I think I'd be pretty arrogant to do that. Sometimes it's not just in the presentation...sometimes it's in how it's read. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and stil the trolls come on to argue? There will likely always be people who want to start an argument just to argue, no matter which list, or which information is being presented. But even if it makes a difference to ONE person, then isn't it still worth it? And I think sometimes what is seen as a troll arguing is actually someone who has very sincere questions about something. In other words, maybe it's not an argument, but instead someone who really doesn't understand something and is asking for clarification in a not so clear way. A lot of undertones can get lost in email. How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? --A lot of times YOU don't. That person may experience something on his own and then go seek information. This list is great for providing that information. But sometimes, just listening to other people's situations, what is working for them, seeing pictures of GOOD riding and pictures showing the GREAT bond between horse and rider will win over someone who is already thinking about going to a better method. I've been learning things for years on Judy's lists and at no time did I feel alienated, disrespected, demeaned or undermined. --I have. Many times over. But I have persisted in asking for a better way to work with the horses I work with. Even after being treated horribly on many occasions, I still come back. And why? Because I sincerely want to know more about building the relationship with Osp, how to keep her healthy all her life, and how to help others with these things. I've put my pride aside on MANY occsions to help educate myself in order to help Osp and others. Stupid after the fact yes, and wishing I knew then what I know now type of thingbut still a better horse person for the experience.. Boy, isn't that the truth! I think back to so many of the things I've done wrong over the years and thank the Lord every day that he has given such an incredible horse who is so capable of forgiving and forgetting past wrongs and helping to teach me a better way. It just makes me want to help her and other horses all the more. And I know I still have a lot to learn - it's a never ending endeavor. What's so fascinating about horses is that there's always something that comes up that I haven't seen before and want information on how to best handle. Having the lists to help out has been a tremendous help over the years. Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:06:48 -, you wrote: I've been learning things for years on Judy's lists and at no time did I feel alienated, disrespected, demeaned or undermined. --I have. Many times over. But I have persisted in asking for a better way to work with the horses I work with. Even after being treated horribly on many occasions, I still come back. Me too. I know how you feel. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you disagree and then maintain your stance when people start calling you names just for having a different belief? you look at pictures like this: http://gallery.mac.com/jtfreeman/100035/DPP_0225/web.jpg janice -First, boy is that picture ugly! It's hard, but here's my thoughts on it - be the bigger person. Don't answer with venom back. I know that people want to defend themselves when verbally attacked (boy, do I know that!). But if you stoop down to their level of beratement, then you are getting as pissy and petty as they are. That doesn't resolve anything. Janice - you have a blast with your horses. You enjoy them, the bond with them, and enjoy them for their individual personalities. If someone wants to berate you for that, they are the ones who have a problem, not you. Everyone has their own individual way of riding and working with their horses. As long as you aren't hurting your horse, what the heck does it matter??? Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 20/09/2007, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -You are wrong on this. *I'M* one of those who thought of you and the natural method people as lunatics who didn't know what you were talking about. That's great! I have indeed changed my ideas on this! I went from riding in the dropped noseband, traditional Icelandic saddle that didn't fit, and shoes all the time to riding in a sidepull, treeless saddle and barefoot. I have been studying the Linda Tellington Jones TTouch stuff, and have started taking a more holistic approach to training and riding. I have employed the clicker training method to help turn a horse around who had a bad start under saddle. *I* have changed. If I can change, others can too. Just a question for you Dawn, and I can't stress enough how I just want to understand the realization you went through..when you were feeling the most alienated, was it during a time you were holding some of your previous beliefs to be true? In my experience, that's when I've been the most defensive...Though during those periods I was often very quiet on the list and did a lot of research and reading on my own. I remember a time when those awful WC pics were defended and thought of as a bad moment in time... At the time I was trying to remain open minded and give as much benefit of the doubt as I possibly could. But when this was presented time and time again as something to strive for I lost my patience for such things. I have to say that never in my experience have I ever felt on iota of ridicule for the average Joe Schlepp who is just tring to keep his/her horse healthy and sound and develop a partnership. It's only the professional riders and trainers that I've got an issue with. Maybe not all of them, but if the good ones are out there I think we should support them. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On 9/20/07, jtafreemanuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the presentation Will anyone ever see that some of their angry, ill informed comments on this forum and repeated on the Eidfaxi site will not actually help the aim of treating the horses in a better way. You can have a good message you can have a great message but its the way you all present it that will make the difference. what would YOU suggest then, that would be effective to help the horses. I think most of us are speaking out and trying in the only way we know to help. Killing the messenger doesnt help. Criticising the people who point out the problem doesn't help. maybe its being done in a wrong way, an ineffective way. Please tell me the way it will work and I will do it... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
I just want to say all this has been a very informative litmus test of the list(s). For one thing, I am amazed at so many people who feel the same way I do, yet feel alienated from this list, and these same people, many of them, who agree with me on this, have alienated me on the other lists. makes me feel sorta ashamed for being bratty in my posts sometimes. and I am gonna make an effort to not be that way! And also it makes me angry too, a little, so many people saying how they have been treated bad here and I have been treated pure horrible on almost all the otehr lists! I mean horrible. I have even been sent terrible computer viruses, repeatedly, every time I posted to the world list for a while. When I went there and said so someone posted back that I was accusing nice people of criminal behavior?? Anyway. this is all just a huge eye opener. I just see now there are so many great people out there who dont feel welcome on this list and I hope we can change that! Thats awful, because I know how I feel on the other lists. And whats best for the horses should be all of our highest priorities. We should try and agree to disagree in a pleasant manner, and if we do lose our temper, what could we do? take it offlist or something? I dont know of a solution. I just know anytime I would get really insistent about a point, posting, trying to be polite and not live up to all the accusations, inevitably people would name call, I would fight back, someone would say I was a troll and I would just shut up and go away and feel like Mic, like oh what the heck am I even doing here! But then I would not unsubscribe, and then i would see a post I had a lot of experience I could share, and then here we go all over again. because it is like some people are just waiting for me to post so they can attack. One person is so sweet, never attacks, but any time I post and she responds signs off with going to bed now with a terrible headache like I have just ruined her day by being alive and posting haha. and that brings out my ingenious ability to be very mean while hilarious at the same time, which some appreciate and with others--- it causes world war three! I will make an effort to change me! I cant change anyone else, but I will try very hard to be better! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
We should try and agree to disagree in a pleasant manner, and if we do lose our temper, what could we do? Yes, Janice, even though it's really hard sometimes, I think we all need to try to stay on the high road, becasue sometimes the people we alienate are the ones that need us most (and I'm not just talkiing about this list) I try to be kind in all my dealings with people and animals but sometimes a button is pushed and it's impossible to not be a little snide and maybe hostile. After I do that, though, I always feel crappy because I think this might be a person that really needed me to approach them in a calm, reasonable manner to help them understand. Also, though, I realize a lot of social change has only come about because people have been willing to put it all on the line. It's a hard balancing act but the struggle is worth it if you can help bring about change for the good-- let's all just keep striving to find the way. Laree
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/20/07, Laree Shulman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We should try and agree to disagree in a pleasant manner, and if we do lose our temper, what could we do? Yes, Janice, even though it's really hard sometimes, I think we all need to try to stay on the high road, becasue sometimes the people we alienate are the ones that need us most (and I'm not just talkiing about this list) I try to be kind in all my dealings with people and animals but sometimes a button is pushed and it's impossible to not be a little snide and maybe hostile. After I do that, though, I always feel crappy because I think this might be a person that really needed me to approach them in a calm, reasonable manner to help them understand. Also, though, I realize a lot of social change has only come about because people have been willing to put it all on the line. It's a hard balancing act but the struggle is worth it if you can help bring about change for the good-- let's all just keep striving to find the way. During the last nasty go-round, Dawn posted somtething that I thought was extremely wise--she said that before she hits the send button, she gives some thought to how her reply sounds to someone else: if it would sound nasty or snippy in person, it would sound at least that bad online. Since then, I've tried to maintain the same attitude. I've noticed that Judy does the same--she is always patient and calm with people, even those that are nasty. I've seen her be firm but fair, just as we should be with our horses too. And Robyn H. seems to stay out of the bickering and simply offer her knowledge. So how about we all treat each other as we strive to do with our horses--fairly, kindly but firmly when necessary, and leave the egos at the door. Robyn S -- Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: when you were feeling the most alienated, was it during a time you were holding some of your previous beliefs to be true? -It probably was. But I think it was also when I pointed out how the posts often turned to bashing a particular person and then I would start getting bashed because of it. I think there's a very clear difference between educating people with information and making inflammatory comments that have no basis in education and are intended to either anger the other person or vent anger or frustration. In my experience, that's when I've been the most defensive...Though during those periods I was often very quiet on the list and did a lot of research and reading on my own. -And I think you have a very kind, compassionate personality too. You seem to treat others with respect and kindness. I can't ever think of a time when you became defensive. I also do a whole lot of reading when I question something. But I think I tend to ask more short questions on the lists when this is the case. Maybe it comes across as being terse, or argumentative, I'm really not sure??? I remember a time when those awful WC pics were defended and thought of as a bad moment in time... At the time I was trying to remain open minded and give as much benefit of the doubt as I possibly could. But when this was presented time and time again as something to strive for I lost my patience for such things. --Yeah, I feel the same way. That being said, I still believe that ANYONE can have a photo taken that is a bad moment in time, even the best, most gentle trainers using the most gentle methods of training. But when we see the the horse in clear discomfort again and again, there's no mistaking the severity of the tack and/or riding. I still strongly feel that we should be talking more education - about what is physically happening to the horse because of the tack and harsh riding, and what could be used/employed differently that would be better. I think that will hit home more than just saying Joe Rider is a bad, bad man who is mean to his horses!. I think understanding WHY it's bad for the horse is a better way that will avoid the alienation and perhaps allow that rider to understand what he is doing to his horse. If the conversation dissolves into slander, that rider will most likely write off that person and what she (he) stands for. And even worse, the rider will unfortunately likely feel the need to defend himself and lash out at the poster. Not productive for anyone, mainly the horse. I have to say that never in my experience have I ever felt on iota of ridicule for the average Joe Schlepp who is just tring to keep his/her horse healthy and sound and develop a partnership. It's only the professional riders and trainers that I've got an issue with. --Here's the thing - I've taken lessons and clinics with many, many folks over the years, natural horseman, traditional Icelandic trainers, and gentle trainers. In all reality, I have seen some of the natural horseman treat horses HORRIBLY with no regard to tack and or physical issues clearly causing pain. I've had traditional Icelandic trainers show the most compassion and understanding of how the horse was feeling. And I've had gentle trainers ask me to sit in a chair position with hands held high for gait. Each trainer/rider has something to offer that can help, and each have things that are absolutely of no help. From my own experiences, I have seen more kind, compassionate training (NOT in a show environment) from the traditional Icelandic Horse trainers than I have from the natural horse trainers. Unfortunately, these same trainers also have a tendancy ride harshly when in a show type of environment (do as I say, not as I do). And those natural horse trainers and gentle trainers have videos that show them being so gentle with their well trained horses who've they've had for many, many years in a non-show environment. I guess how I feel is that not everything we see or hear gives us the whole picture. I don't think it's fair to bash a *person* based upon a photo and only going by hearsay. I think that bad tack and/or how the person is riding absolutely SHOULD be addressed and explained as to WHY it's bad!!! THAT would help the cause on so many levels. I am deliberately NOT giving names of trainers because I have no desire to bash any particular person. I just want to explain what I've personally seen to help clarify where I'm coming from. Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 20/09/2007, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am deliberately NOT giving names of trainers because I have no desire to bash any particular person. I just want to explain what I've personally seen to help clarify where I'm coming from. Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine Thanks for explaining. Email is a difficult medium sometimes isn't it? However, it's been my experience that in some cases we are dealing with bullies who have absolutely no intentioin of changing their riding practises. They are making a living at it, and will continue to do so as long as they continue to win or place. It was interesting to see on the world standings that there were only riders mentioned, and nothing about the horses they were riding that allowed them to achieve those scores. That's a huge member of the partnership not acknowledged. Wanda
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or this. There's a big discussion going on at the German icelist, about the same subject. This is a preview of an article in one of the German horse magazines, taken at the WC. It's not just here than people are getting upset. That is really a relief to hear. I've noticed some German sites (maybe just one? can't remember) where people are importing Rocky Mountain Horses and doing Natural Horsemanship (good horsemanship) with them, using sidepulls, gentle techniques. I don't see why that wouldn't spread over to Icelandics. I believe there is hope. I know there are people who have done things one way and then seen the light and started going down a softer, gentler path. It's just hard to see horses fighting their riders, I think a lot of us wish it could just stop right now! It's really hard when people are right in the middle of these things, it takes something to jolt us out of the situation, to take a step back, get some space, and really look at the situation, break old habits. It's uncomfortable to learn new ways of doing things, I still get uncomfortable sometimes and go back and forth with this. That's why I think it's important to work on ourselves, find our inner center when working with the horses, a quiet place, contemplate what we are doing. I am surrounded by people who are set in their way, set in their beliefs about how to handle horses, things that make me uncomfortable. I try to get quiet and just focus on myself and the horse I am working with, try not to let the chatter of what other people think work it's way in there. It's probably more difficult for people who are already set in their ways. It's amazing, there is a guy on another list who just got a mule, his first, and he has gone straight to clicker training and wanting to go see Liz Graves, this is pretty cool. I think it's great that this information is out there, I think it does make a difference. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/20/07, Kim Morton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or this. There's a big discussion going on at the German icelist, about the same subject. This is a preview of an article in one of the German horse magazines, taken at the WC. It's not just here than people are getting upset. That is really a relief to hear. That is a relief. Doesn't Germany have the largest population of Icelandics of any country outside of Iceland? Robyn S -- Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- Robyn Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/19/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. I agree. And you won't change the minds of people in that group anyway. Robyn S I really do not think that is a fair statement Robyn. I have been offline for a couple of days now, and am now reading all these posts from all 3 Icelandic horse lists that I am on. I have read statements from members on the other lists...they also do not like the bits, the harshness.they would love to talk about it, change things, but it is very difficult to have a dialouge here, as it becomes a screaming match and some people can be a bit rudeI have said things here on this list about bits and nosebands...only to get bashed...I will still speak up, as I do not think that tack itself is bad, it is how it is used.and from some, just some of the photos, it is obvious that the tack was used in a very harsh manner in some of those horses.that saddens me, as it does other lists members on those other lists. Its the All or Nothing mentality that is hard for for people to respond to. Its the rudeness that sometimes comes from just a very small, but very loud minority on this list that puts people off. If we could dialoge Nicely, and not call people names, inform without expectations or judgements, people would be more likley to listen I have said similar things before, only for it to fall on Deaf earsshoving rude comments down people throats only makes the person throw it back up. Displaying the information in a nice and informative manner allows people to read and take the info in, digest it fully..its not anything I have made up, it is just human nature. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
they would love to talk about it, change things, but it is very difficult to have a dialouge here, as it becomes a screaming match and some people can be a bit rude Skye - I think most folks on this list are nice, reasonable folks that want what is best for the Icelandic Horse. I think some of us just have a little harder time than others in containing the passion and frustration we feel for this topic. Hopefully in the future those folks that want a more a more reasoned approach will be brave enough to speak up and we can all make a better effort to curb our frustrations. Geez - I'm beginning to sound like some New Age touchy feely person, but seriously, I appreciate the effort you and Dawn and Janice have made to stay reasonable as you make your points and hope that we can all do this better. -- Laree What a horse does under compulsion is done without understanding, and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip or spur a dancer. -Xenophon
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep. Melnir is very green, and I'm a believer that the first few months of training should mostly be walk, walk walk. I did finally get Cary to tape a few little bursts of flat walk and foxtrot that he freely offered. I have no qualms about posting my in progress videos. I'll keep doing it too. I think it's good to show good examples of how we do things, not just the finished product, I think the most important part is how we get there. If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Kim
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting. I'm used to mainly thinking of winging as a conformation problem...and I suspect there almost has to be a conformational element for a horse to show it as markedly as these two did. Karen Thomas, NC --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
--I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? No, that's not correct. What's accepted in Peruvians is something called termino which is not the same thing as winging. From the pictures I've seen, the action of termino begins at the shoulders, and the whole leg moves in an arc... although I've heard from a chiropractor that unknowing breeders are mistaking termino for winging, so it's showing up in that breed too. I don't know many Peruvians though, so that's definitely secondhand. I don't know much about termino, and don't think I've seen it very often. There is a section clarifying termino in Lee Ziegler's book - there may be better sources for explaining it for all I know, but that's one source that many of us have easy access to. Judy posted a link recently to winging, which has many implications. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
The Peruvian movement known as Termino is not true winging - it comes from the shoulder, not the knee. I've seen a few Icelandics which do exactly the same movement, but not that many, and it isn't winging. Mic --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. I agree. And you won't change the minds of people in that group anyway. Robyn S Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
There's a Peruvian Paso where I board that has been having some serious soundness problems, so he's been on stall rest and thus getting a lot more attention from the rest of us than he might have otherwise. I think his owner would argue that he does not wing as we think of it, but has a distinctive gait. We were standing talking to Fabio over his stall door and noticed that his chest muscles are VERY developed. Looking at him from the side, his chest is probably three or four inches deeper in front of his front legs than it is behind (just in front of where his girth probably lies). He looks like a body builder with pecs. We wondered if this muscle development was a result of the way he moves or was the CAUSE of how he moves. His owner is the sort of person we would all like to sell horses to. She's an older single woman who commutes from her pschyiatric practice in San Francisco to Applegate, where she has her home and horses. She has no pets. Those horses get the best of care. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
There is a quote from my favorite novel of all time, the best humorous novel ever written in my opinon, and is a magnificent southern novel. It is entitled A Confederacy of Dunces, published 11 years after the author killed himself. His mother took his manuscript to LSU and asked an english professor there if he would read it and see if it was good enough to send off for publishing. it won the pulitzer prize. and was titled after this quote: by Jonathan Swift: When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. janice yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On 9/19/07, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? yes, they wing from a different place, their conformation is such that they wing from the shoulder I think it is, but a definite conformation thing. I have seen them gait and wing and it looks very different I dont know how to describe it. Their whole body frames up differently. I have seen walking horses wing and paddle out in back too, and it looks different. I wish I had the technical knowlege to explain it! All I can say is when peruvians wing they appear to be very collected and their front, in the chest appears to be in a different frame for gaiting than when a walker does it. When a walker does it he seems to do it more from the legs and seems more constrained... again I dont know how to describe. One way to describe... have you seen men, football players, run through a course of rubber tires? How each foot lands in the center of a different tire so they are going along with legs farther out from the hip, not from lower down. Its like that. The winging doesnt come from lower down. And I have never seen one wing that wasnt in a gait where they seemed very elegantly bent at the poll. Also they werent going fast fast like a racker so dont know what gait. Walkers winging were going fast like a racker. Peruvians seem to do it more elegantly. These are my observations. In the icelandic video the winging seems to be too much swaying side to side. a peruvian does not swing side to side like that when winging. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Have you ever noticed that sometimes you can post people need to stop abusing horses and inevitably someone comes out with Janice is a huge jerk and I dont like her or her posts and then other people come out oh I love Janice and her posts and then others Janice is an idiot, a lackey then others oh dont be mean to janice I adore her! then next thing you know, voila, it isnt about helping horses at ALL anymore. Its about who is good and who is bad. and guess who loses? Horses. Its is about whose queendom is being usurped, whose power infringed, whose ivory tower crumbling, which goddess is best. and who is still cranked in a tight dropped noseband, mouth gaping? horses. so guess what, you are right. I am an idiot, a lackey, a bad person, a goofball, a stupid jerk. Now lets move on and help these poor dumb animals who only want to please and are suffering at our hands if we do nothing to help them!! how on EARTH can you love horses and not want them helped?! How can you live with yourself knowing every time someone speaks out to help these horses you deliberately try to change the subject to who is bad, who is good, just so nothing changes. and if nothing changes, nothing changes. Shame on YOU! I'm NOTHING. I am NOBODY. Get off your bougois (sp) snooty rear end and be FOR something other than going to the mall and help effect change in this world. Thats what life is all about! Not whether I am a jerk or not?!? a hundred years from now no one will ever remember I existed, but if in a hundred years there is one more horse somewhere gaiting along comfortably, relaxed, happy, then what will it matter whether I was a jerk or not?? get OVER yourself. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. I agree. And you won't change the minds of people in that group anyway. Robyn S I wholly disagree with this. There are absolutely people who can, will and do change. You will not change everyone. But there are those out there who maybe have something happen and they start realizing that there is a better way. But alienating, disrespecting, demeaning and undermining them and perpetuating the them versus us mentality is surely not the way to get across to some of the ones who may be inclined to change. The goal is to help people realize what's best for the horse is it not? The post that Judy had on Eidfaxi was far more educational than demeaning. To me, this is the way to really get through to the people who need it the most. Education, mutual respect, keeping an open mind to seeing the slightest change in those who ARE open to change and treating others with respect is the key. The person bashing has begun on the Eidfaxi blog, but it's interestingly mostly one sided with very little education to back up that side. I think the key to success in helping the horse is to not get sucked into the nastiness with the same nasty replies and instead just simply get the education out there. Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:34:44 -, you wrote: I think the key to success in helping the horse is to not get sucked into the nastiness with the same nasty replies and instead just simply get the education out there. Well said, Dawn. I think if people selling horses, particularly in Iceland and Germany, realise they are losing a big chunk of the market, that might also help. Appealing to people's better nature might not always work (some people don't seem to have one) but hit them in the bank account, and they seem more eager to change. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 19/09/2007, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wholly disagree with this. There are absolutely people who can, will and do change. You will not change everyone. But there are those out there who maybe have something happen and they start realizing that there is a better way. But alienating, disrespecting, demeaning and undermining them and perpetuating the them versus us mentality is surely not the way to get across to some of the ones who may be inclined to change. But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and still the trolls come on to argue? How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? I've been learning things for years on Judy's lists and at no time did I feel alienated, disrespected, demeaned or undermined. Stupid after the fact yes, and wishing I knew then what I know now type of thingbut still a better horse person for the experience.. Wanda happily riding my ponies...
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19/09/2007, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wholly disagree with this. There are absolutely people who can, will and do change. You will not change everyone. But there are those out there who maybe have something happen and they start realizing that there is a better way. But alienating, disrespecting, demeaning and undermining them and perpetuating the them versus us mentality is surely not the way to get across to some of the ones who may be inclined to change. But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and still the trolls come on to argue? And those are the ones that I refer to. Not the people new to the breed who have been influenced by traditional riders and methods. Its the ones who regard those of us into natural methods as lunatics who don't know what we're talking about. Those are the ones who won't change. So sadly, it IS going to be us vs. them, to a degree. And Janice, I truly appreciate your lack of ego--THAT'S what separates true horsemen from merely riders. Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? How do you disagree and then maintain your stance when people start calling you names just for having a different belief? you look at pictures like this: http://gallery.mac.com/jtfreeman/100035/DPP_0225/web.jpg janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and still the trolls come on to argue? I think it's time to address the subject line question in light of where this thread has morphed... I don't know about you all, but I'm applauding Judy Ryder for so tirelessly crusading for the humane treatment and training of all gaited horses, particularly Icelandic Horses. And for how long...? What would we all do without Judy's efforts? :) Here's to Judy! Karen Thomas, is there an e-mail shorthand for clapping...? [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Laree Shulman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's to Judy! Yes, Here, Here !! - Thanks for your courage +1!! Robyn S -- Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? I'm not so sure we can. Ugh, I actually went and read that stuff on Eidfaxi, it really makes me mad:), but at the same time, really, they are so defensive and trying to be insulting, it's really not rational. Unfortunately, I have actually heard things like this out of people's mouth's in real life, it really turned me off. What it seems like to me is that a few people are looking for status in a group, a good horse (one that costs a lot of money and does speed racking:)), that might get you into the group, and everyone else has ponies who are from slaughter lines:) These people are actually a little bit funny, just don't let anyone see that the emperor really doesn't have any clothes. I don't think it is either/ or/ like if I ride my horses with good horsemanship, they can't perform well. I think they can perform well, I don't know if I have any speedrackers yet, maybe not:) I don't see why a good fast tolt, rack, whatever couldn't be done with good horsemanship, I think it could. It's fun to go fast, I just don't want to see the harsh bits, and yanking, pulling, it's really an unattractive picture and in my mind takes away from the talent of the horse, it's so distracting. People who don't see it, they see a something good, well, I'm sure the spider crawl looks good to the TWH people who like padded up horses, they think it looks great, other people who aren't used to it are disgusted. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
People who don't see it, they see a something good, well, I'm sure the spider crawl looks good to the TWH people who like padded up horses, they think it looks great, other people who aren't used to it are disgusted. I'll never forget when I was at the Rocky Mountain Horse Expo some years ago, and a man came out on a racking saddlebred for the ASB breed demo. The horse's head was yanked back, and his feet were lifting so ridiculously high it was pathetic. And people were LAUGHING because this poor horse looked so silly. And at a big jumper show I went to once, one of the horses refused a jump two times. The rider took his crop and started whacking the crap out of the horse on its neck, and people booed. The general public isn't stupid--people know when they see something wrong. Robyn S -- Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.notion.net/icelandichorses2007/qtpreviewT1.html I wonder: what is the audience applauding?!?!? What can we do to make a positive impact on this situation? to change things for the benefit of the horse? I think we have to keep setting a good example of how to do things, keep putting the information out there, educate, inform, and keep protesting when we see people hurting horses. Kim
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/18/07, Kim Morton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- I think we have to keep setting a good example of how to do things, keep putting the information out there, educate, inform, and keep protesting when we see people hurting horses. Kim yay kim, good deal! basically follow Judy's lead. I know she aggravates people sometimes when she tries to show how things arent being done that are good for the horse. But who cares what people think! Our goal should always be to do things that are best for the horse and keep money and prestige out of it! Janice yipie tie yie yo
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mean... it is pretty clear to me what I see... and I assume it's pretty clear to other horsemen around the world (unless they're *not* horsemen and only *horse riders* or *horse controllers*). I would hope that people get a clue and NOT copy what those people (World Championship riders?!?!?!) are doing. well yes, and definitely something to not make light of! But I just don't know how to tell people that haven't seen the downhill progression from just a little to full out stomach lurching horse cruelty. I think that it is unfortunate that this kind of thing is out there to set an example. I think that people watch this, get used to it, don't see anything wrong with it, they are told this is ideal, and then try to immitate it. It's too bad that we have sheep riding horses:) Kim
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
It's too bad that we have sheep riding horses:) That's a good one, Kim. The phrase that is, not the situation. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 9/16/2007 6:32 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
The new Jolli Caveson A fantastic tool to work with and teach horses a friendly behavior towards basic training. Master Trainer Eyjólfur Ãsólfsson the designer of the Jolli caveson explaines the use of this effective training tool in his educational film On Horseback And he's the head teacher at Holar? What type of natural horsemanship is that? That lunging caveson looks similar to this Crescent Noseband: http://tinyurl.com/nuk43 That's the leveller; not a nice piece of equipment: http://iceryder.net/leveller.html It's all about control of the horse, not communication. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Friendly behavior towards basic training? Really, it probably just controls the horse with enough force to keep them shut down, so they stop trying to run away from you. There are such better training techniques out there, special torture devices not needed. I've bought oodles of Icelandic videos, of shows, World Championships, training videos but I draw the line at buying anything from Jolli. It just makes me furious to know that he claims to use either dressage or Natural Horsemanship. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 9/16/2007 6:32 PM
