KR> stalls

[Virgil N.Salisbury]

 Reread Stick and Rudder. You are setting up a DANGEROUS SITUATION, Virg


 On 1/26/2014 10:28 PM, Larry Flesner wrote:
>   I can fly through a stall with my feet on the floor, using only 
> aileron to keep wings level.  I like that.
> Larry Flesner
>> ++
>
>>  PLEASE, DO NOT DO THAT ! KEEP THE WINGS LEVEL WITH
>> THE RUDDER! You increase the Angle of attack with the down 
>> aileron and set
>> yourself up for a SPIN, Virg
>> +
>Not in my KR.  If I try to use rudder to pick up a wing it causes 
> the nose to pitch down and it won't lift a wing.  With a 3 degree wash 
> out the ailerons are still flying.I can slow fly a C150 all day 
> with the stall horn buzzing and maintain wings level with rudder 
> only.  This ain't no Cessna or Piper we're flying here.   My KR does 
> power off stalls very gently and straight ahead, without rudder.
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
>
>
> ___
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KR> stalls

[Larry Flesner]

   I can fly through a stall with my feet on the floor, using only 
aileron to keep wings level.  I like that.
Larry Flesner
>++

>  PLEASE, DO NOT DO THAT ! KEEP THE WINGS LEVEL WITH
> THE RUDDER! You increase the Angle of attack with the down 
> aileron and set
> yourself up for a SPIN, Virg
>+
Not in my KR.  If I try to use rudder to pick up a wing it causes 
the nose to pitch down and it won't lift a wing.  With a 3 degree 
wash out the ailerons are still flying.I can slow fly a C150 all 
day with the stall horn buzzing and maintain wings level with rudder 
only.  This ain't no Cessna or Piper we're flying here.   My KR does 
power off stalls very gently and straight ahead, without rudder.

Larry Flesner

KR> Stalls

[phillabaum...@aol.com]

Glenn wrote:


I would think that the best way to approach this is to practice slow 
light as much as possible, extending the lower speed slowly and 
autiously over many flights, and at a very safe altitude; all the while 
aining experience with the plane. Does that sound judicious? I always 
hought the test phase was about learning how to fly the plane, as much 
s learning how the plane flys.
I'll add.  I have not performed test flights on my plane but I think one would 
want to get in slow flight during the first flight to see where the onset of an 
approach stall is coming on.  You don't know if your airspeed indicator is 
correct. So whatever it shows use 1.2 factor as your minimum approach speed. 
Just my 2 cents worth, others with this experience might differ. 
Steve Phillabaum
KR2Swide, Shorter, Alabama 334-740-0066

KR> Stalls

[David Goodman]

Martin wrote:

I would think that the best way to approach this is to practice slow 
flight as much as possible, extending the lower speed slowly and 
cautiously over many flights

Martin,

You should be doing at least a power off approach to stall on the very first
flight in the plane.  If you do not do this, how else are you going to know
where the approach speed actually is?  How will you know if you are getting
ready to stall the plane on its first landing?

This was my fear about the thread about stalls on the net.  The discussion
has been on FULL POWER or POWER ON stalls.  This is a very different beast
compared to the power off stall.  In a power off stall, the plane is not
going to be cocked up as much, you need far less rudder and you have extra
power to add coming out of the stall.  In the power on stall there is no
extra power available, you will likely have a huge amount of rudder in to
balance the torque of the motor, and there power becomes your enemy unless
the plane is in balanced flight throughout.  They are very different events.

Pilots like Jeff Scott are high hour pilots who have a tremendous amount of
experience in the KR and other aircraft.  Maneuvers that come easily to them
do so because they have gained insight into doing them well, often through
scary experiences, or at least enough experience to have become proficient.
A person writing on the KR net may have no hours at all, or be a high time
pilot, and his or her experience level will be reflected in their comments.


At 300 hours in my KR-2S I see no reason to be doing power on stalls in it.
It is not that I cannot do them, but I have enough experience from other at
high g or inverted maneuvering to not feel the need to do this type flight
in this airplane.  Other pilots may want to go out and do high power stalls
on every flight, and for them that is just as good an answer as my own.  It
all depends on what you want to do in your plane.

Before you do any maneuvers or fly make sure you review and brief to
yourself all the maneuvers you plan on doing.  Think your flights out, plan
safe, fly safe... and have fun!

IHS,

Dave "Zipper" Goodman
www.verticalavionics.com

KR> Stalls

[Glenn Martin]

I would think that the best way to approach this is to practice slow 
flight as much as possible, extending the lower speed slowly and 
cautiously over many flights, and at a very safe altitude; all the while 
gaining experience with the plane. Does that sound judicious? I always 
thought the test phase was about learning how to fly the plane, as much 
as learning how the plane flys.

-- 
Glenn Martin
Kr2 N1333A
Biloxi, MS, 39532
rep...@martekmississippi.com

KR> Stalls

[laser...@juno.com]

> Been re-reading 'Stick and Rudder' (Langewiesche)

> Artful flying is okay too.  

The second one is by Michael Maya Charles, recent (very briefly) editor
(took J. Mac's place for two issues) of Flying.  I've admired his writing
since his first story in Flying back in the 80's called "Freight Dog."

I sure found Langewiesche's chapter on Landings helpful when I was
learning to land my first KR - retractable with a Maloof prop.  He
abolished my fear of hitting the prop when trying to get the plane on the
ground.  Until then every landing had been a stressful affair -
especially with winds - since I only had five and a half inches between
the runway and my prop tips when in a level attitude.  After reading his
chapter on Landings, I stopped worrying about applying forward stick.  
That was a relief.

If I was a flight instructor I would require anyone aspiring to learn to
fly to read S before they ever got in the plane for a lesson. 
Nowadays, many if not most flight instructors have never read
Langewiesche or even heard of him.  And most the students can barely
speak English, much less read it.  Maybe it's been translated into
Chinese.  



I wish my KR would DO a full-power stall but it just keeps climbing . . .
:-)

***

I see Mark's prediction that board participants would only go two weeks
before they started re-posting everything they reply to was accurate.

Mike
KSEE




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Grant Funding May Be Available to Those That Qualify.
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KR> Stalls

[Mark Langford]

Jeff Scott wrote:

>>An example of a plane you don't stall:  If you choose to do an approach 
>>stall in a Lancair 4 you do so with the gear down to prevent overspeeding 
>>the airframe during recovery.  You can expect it to roll onto it's back as 
>>one wing will wash out quite abruptly and violently.  It typically takes 
>>about 2000 feet to recover.  You simply do not do departure stalls in that 
>>aircraft.  Most Lancair 4 pilots will do one approach stall in their 
>>aircraft during training, which teaches them to completely avoid that part 
>>of the flight regime.<<

This pretty much sums up accelerated stalls in my KR for me.  It's good to 
know I'm in good company, at least.  Having said that, I do practice regular 
power-off (typical landing configuration) stalls all the time (often to 
check for improvements due to stuff like increased wing area or flap 
improvements).  Now that I have a little more flying experience in my plane, 
I wouldn't mind another acclerated stall or two in my plane, but I'd 
definitely leave everything that wasn't bolted down in the hangar this time 
around!

Didn't mean to start a big "KRs are dangerous" thread...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com
 

KR> Stalls

[Jeff Scott]

I thought approach and departure stalls are part of the PTS that every pilot 
should be able to perform for their PPL and are typically asked to demonstrate 
during their BFRs.  Now, that doesn't mean it should be performed in every 
aircraft, as I'll discuss below.  The point that I apparently failed to make is 
that my KR wasn't any more difficult to fly to those standards than most 
trainers I have flown.  That does not mean that every KR flies the same as mine 
or that everyone should do what I do.  With some inattention to the rudder, I 
would expect the KR to get out of control much faster than your typical 
trainer.  With the small tails often times found on KRs, that could make for a 
pretty wild ride.  With the huge variations in the way KRs are built, and the 
many different control sizes, configurations and airfoils,  I wouldn't use the 
performance of one as a predictor for any other. An example of a plane you 
don't stall:  If you choose to do an approach stall in a Lancair 4 you do so 
with the gear down to prevent overspeeding the airframe during recovery.  You 
can expect it to roll onto it's back as one wing will wash out quite abruptly 
and violently.  It typically takes about 2000 feet to recover.  You simply do 
not do departure stalls in that aircraft.  Most Lancair 4 pilots will do one 
approach stall in their aircraft during training, which teaches them to 
completely avoid that part of the flight regime. -Jeff ScottLos Alamos, 
NMN1213WJeff,

I agree with you about stalling the KR.  The chances of the average pilot 
making a mistake I a full power stall and turning it into either an inverted 
departure or spin is great enough to caution most KR pilots to not go out and 
try this maneuver.  

Ken Rand dropped 8000 feet after on by one report, and Mark Langford dumped his 
plane upside down doing the same.  It is not the stall that is going to be the 
issue, it is the incipient spin phase of flight that if going to get someone 
killed.

In my opinion there is zero good reason for the average KR pilot to be doing a 
full power stall in the KR.  The attendant risk of departed flight is not 
something the average pilot (whether right or wrong) is ready for.  Even as 
someone who has a lot of hours in planes doing high alpha flight I have zero 
reason to do this type flying in my own KR.

If you enjoy flying in this envelope, by all means go for it!  That is part of 
the fun of flying, to do things the way you want to.  I would not advise others 
to do this is all I am saying, as the KR is unforgiving of mistakes one might 
make in this regime.

IHS,

David Goodman




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KR> Stalls

[Mark Wegmet]

Been re-reading 'Stick and Rudder' (Langewiesche) from the '40's and his
point and focus is "Angle of Attack" big time. Maybe 'stalls' are avoidable,
but should be practiced. I found the book to be helpful as an 'attitude
adjustment"; Artful flying is okay too.

Mark W
N952MW (res)

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Langford
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 7:09 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls

"Joe" wrote:

Anybody have a "in the cockpit" video of a KR2/KR2S in a full stall?

I don't have a video, but I've got one "full power full stall" permanently 
fried into my brain.  Left wing drops, plane drops and rolls inverted, 
accelerates toward the ground at an incredible rate, everything in the plane

sticks to the top of the canopy and ends up in the tail.  Fortunately I was 
at about 5000' when I started.  This was early in my 40 hour test phase, and

I didn't realize the implications of a full power "accelerated" stall.  I 
was watching the airspeed indicator, rather than the ball on the turn and 
bank indicator, which was a real mistake.  I don't know how many g's I 
pulled getting out of that dive, but losing the wings certainly occured to 
me in the middle of all that.  That's when I bought the g-meter.

I'm not trying to say that a KR is any more dangerous than any other plane. 
I'm only writing this so others that are as inexperienced as I was will take

full-power stalls more seriously than I did.  Why would you even need to 
know how and at what speed it stalls at full power?  Consider too steep a 
climbout on takeoff and you'll understand.  Now I have a very healthy 
respect for that flight regime, and I avoid the possibility at all costs.

I guess that doesn't help you out with a video though

Mark Langford
ML "at" N56ML.com
website www.n56ml.com


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KR> Stalls

[Virgil Salisbury]

 One thing that I learned during my flight training was NEVER pick 
up a wing in the approach to
 a stall with the aileron. It INCEREASES THE ANGLE OF Attack on the 
low wing and
 precipitates the stall on that wing and it stalls first, Virg


 On 12/3/2010 11:55 AM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> Before we start beating drum about the KR being a dangerous craft to stall, 
> you need to look a little farther.  I practice both power off and power on 
> stalls in my KR.  It's more docile and controllable in a power on stall than 
> my Tomahawk was (the Tommy always wanted to roll over and spin).  I would 
> compare the handling in that regime to a Cessna 150, only quicker.  Very 
> docile and easy to recover.  I have also spun it, but did not allow the spin 
> to fully develop.  Spin entry and recovery were also very docile.  The spin 
> entry was from an accelerated power on stall and was actually captured on 
> video from another plane for use in an art video.  Unfortunately, I only saw 
> the video once and was never able to obtain a copy.  For the average KR, your 
> mileage may differ significantly, mostly due to CG considerations.  Mark's 
> plane is a different story with a completely different plan form from most. 
> The one thing to remember about stalls, which really shows up during a power 
> on stall, is that your ailerons are useless until you recover.  You are 
> handling the plane with rudder and elevator. -Jeff ScottN1213W -- 
> Original Message --
>

KR> Stalls

[David Goodman]

Jeff wrote:

Before we start beating drum about the KR being a dangerous craft to stall, you 
need to look a little farther.  I practice both power off and power on stalls 
in 
my KR.  

Jeff,

I agree with you about stalling the KR.  The chances of the average pilot 
making a mistake I a full power stall and turning it into either an inverted 
departure or spin is great enough to caution most KR pilots to not go out and 
try this maneuver.  

Ken Rand dropped 8000 feet after on by one report, and Mark Langford dumped his 
plane upside down doing the same.  It is not the stall that is going to be the 
issue, it is the incipient spin phase of flight that if going to get someone 
killed.

In my opinion there is zero good reason for the average KR pilot to be doing a 
full power stall in the KR.  The attendant risk of departed flight is not 
something the average pilot (whether right or wrong) is ready for.  Even as 
someone who has a lot of hours in planes doing high alpha flight I have zero 
reason to do this type flying in my own KR.

If you enjoy flying in this envelope, by all means go for it!  That is part of 
the fun of flying, to do things the way you want to.  I would not advise others 
to do this is all I am saying, as the KR is unforgiving of mistakes one might 
make in this regime.

IHS,

David Goodman
Vertical Avionics, Inc.
663 El Prado Ave.
Coupeville, WA 98239
www.verticalavionics.com
360 969 1174 (C)
360 678 1602 (W)




It's more docile and controllable in a power on stall than my Tomahawk 
was (the Tommy always wanted to roll over and spin).  I would compare the 
handling in that regime to a Cessna 150, only quicker.  Very docile and easy to 
recover.  I have also spun it, but did not allow the spin to fully develop.  
Spin entry and recovery were also very docile.  The spin entry was from an 
accelerated power on stall and was actually captured on video from another 
plane 
for use in an art video.  Unfortunately, I only saw the video once and was 
never 
able to obtain a copy.  For the average KR, your mileage may differ 
significantly, mostly due to CG considerations.  Mark's plane is a different 
story with a completely different plan form from most. The one thing to 
remember 
about stalls, which really shows up during a power on stall, is that your 
ailerons are useless until you recover.  You are handling the plane with rudder 
and elevator. -Jeff ScottN1213W -- Original Message --

Hello Phil,

I once had a conversation with an early KR pilot that personally knew Ken Rand. 
He said that he did a full power stall in his KR at 9000 feet. He said it took 
more than 8000 feet to recover. It was so bad he said he had already decided 
that he was going to die but tried one more time and was able to get it to come 
out of the spin. It is not the "KR" that is the problem but any close coupled 
high power to weight?airplane. It is not going to stay straight when it stalls 
unless the ball is perfectly centered. 

I have more than 17,000 hours and a lot of aerobatic experience and I would not 
stall the KR with full power. 

I am not saying not to do it because I don't know your qualifications but 
simply 

wanted you to know what to expect based on the experience of this guy.
On another note as a KR guy if you are ever in the southern part of Alabama 
look 

me up and we can go do some flying. 


Victor Taylor
Irvington Alabama



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KR> Stalls

[velocityo...@yahoo.com]

That is nice to know Jeff. Thanks for the report. I guess there are a lot of 
variables to look at. 


Victor





From: Jeff Scott <jscott.pi...@juno.com>
To: kr...@mylist.net
Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 10:55:34 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls

Before we start beating drum about the KR being a dangerous craft to stall, you 
need to look a little farther.  I practice both power off and power on stalls 
in 
my KR.  It's more docile and controllable in a power on stall than my Tomahawk 
was (the Tommy always wanted to roll over and spin).  I would compare the 
handling in that regime to a Cessna 150, only quicker.  Very docile and easy to 
recover.  I have also spun it, but did not allow the spin to fully develop.  
Spin entry and recovery were also very docile.  The spin entry was from an 
accelerated power on stall and was actually captured on video from another 
plane 
for use in an art video.  Unfortunately, I only saw the video once and was 
never 
able to obtain a copy.  For the average KR, your mileage may differ 
significantly, mostly due to CG considerations.  Mark's plane is a different 
story with a completely different plan form from most. The one thing to 
remember 
about stalls, which really shows up during a power on stall, is that your 
ailerons are useless until you recover.  You are handling the plane with rudder 
and elevator. -Jeff ScottN1213W -- Original Message --

Hello Phil,

I once had a conversation with an early KR pilot that personally knew Ken Rand. 
He said that he did a full power stall in his KR at 9000 feet. He said it took 
more than 8000 feet to recover. It was so bad he said he had already decided 
that he was going to die but tried one more time and was able to get it to come 
out of the spin. It is not the "KR" that is the problem but any close coupled 
high power to weight?airplane. It is not going to stay straight when it stalls 
unless the ball is perfectly centered. 

I have more than 17,000 hours and a lot of aerobatic experience and I would not 
stall the KR with full power. 

I am not saying not to do it because I don't know your qualifications but 
simply 

wanted you to know what to expect based on the experience of this guy.
On another note as a KR guy if you are ever in the southern part of Alabama 
look 

me up and we can go do some flying. 


Victor Taylor
Irvington Alabama



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KR> Stalls

[Bob Lee]

Mark Langford wrote:

<< I'm not trying to say that a KR is any more dangerous than any other
plane.  >>

For my money Mark, your flight report is completely normal for most
airplanes.  Early in my flight training I did the same thing when learning
accelerated stalls.  While fixating on the airspeed and artificial horizon,
the ball went all the way to the side.  When the wing broke I was inverted
before I knew what happened and pointing straight down.  I was in a Cessna
150 with an instructor at the time.  In the flight debrief, the instructor
told me "I saw it coming but you didn't so I let it happen".  That was one
of those learning moments where you get a lifetime lesson in seconds.  All
these years later I scan the ball continuously to make sure I don't skid
into a problem.

Regards,


Bob Lee
N52BL  KR2
Suwanee, GA  USA
90% done only 69% to go!

KR> Stalls (long)

[David Goodman]

KR-netters,



There have been two excellent posts recently concerning full power stalls in
the KR.  Mark Langford's personal experience of flipping upside down after a
hard roll out of a full power stall is not unique to the KR, but the math
behind the snap roll says the high-powered short KR should respond this way.



While most of us will not see an intentional full power stall in the KR, a
more likely scenario is an accelerated stall during a hard turn or maneuver.
If you are tail chasing a Glasair or RV around the patch this could be a
problem if you are not paying attention to the rumble in the fuselage as it
approaches stall.  The feeling/sounds are the same as the stall series we
all did in Phase I and are distinct from the sound of just having "G" on the
plane.  For my bird, Goliath, the rumble begins about 10-12 MPH before the
calculated stall point and builds in intensity to a heavy rumble as approach
to stall deepens.



The School of Aviation Safety in their course, Fundamentals of Fixed-wing
Aerodynamics covers critical conditions affecting directional stability.
Two that are of interest to us in the KR world:



"When an aircraft is flying at a high AOA the flow field over the vertical
tail is blocked and disturbed.  This causes a lost of lift which in turn
results in a lower restoring moment.  A technique to counter this effect is
to add ventral fins on the bottom of the aircraft."  I can tell you from
personal experience this is why the F-16 has the huge ventral fins.  Flying
over the top at 40 KIAS in full blower would be impossible without them.



"At high angles of side slip an aircraft can lose its directional stability
because a large enough restoring force cannot be created.  This would cause
the aircraft to quickly diverge and depart controlled flight.  To
counter-act this less than desirable occurrence a dorsal fin is sometimes
added to the vertical tail.  This device reduces the effective aspect ratio
of the tail and increases the angle at which stall occurs."  This loss of
directional stability is exacerbated by the P factor of the motor and
helical prop wash on the aircraft.  At higher AOA as the tail becomes more
and more blanked eventually the motor is going to win and the plane is going
to snap roll.  Mark, I am glad you did not prove this in the ultimate
manner.



In the KR, the trend has been to add a dorsal fin to increase lateral
stability.  This certainly increases stability in normal flight for most who
have tried it.  Reducing the aspect ratio on the top of the fuselage would
not help recovery from a deep stall or spin as it would be effectively
blanked by the fuselage.



I have not heard of anyone doing this, but has anyone put a ventral fin on a
KR?  This would have the effect of increasing stability in normal flight
like the dorsal extension and should provide some increased measure of spin
resistance.  I am considering this addition to my plane this winter as I do
the tail chase thing and a good deal of formation flying.



IHS,

Dave "Zipper" Goodman

Vertical Avionics, Inc.

www.verticalavionics.com

360 678 1602 (W)

KR> Stalls

[Jeff Scott]

Before we start beating drum about the KR being a dangerous craft to stall, you 
need to look a little farther.  I practice both power off and power on stalls 
in my KR.  It's more docile and controllable in a power on stall than my 
Tomahawk was (the Tommy always wanted to roll over and spin).  I would compare 
the handling in that regime to a Cessna 150, only quicker.  Very docile and 
easy to recover.  I have also spun it, but did not allow the spin to fully 
develop.  Spin entry and recovery were also very docile.  The spin entry was 
from an accelerated power on stall and was actually captured on video from 
another plane for use in an art video.  Unfortunately, I only saw the video 
once and was never able to obtain a copy.  For the average KR, your mileage may 
differ significantly, mostly due to CG considerations.  Mark's plane is a 
different story with a completely different plan form from most. The one thing 
to remember about stalls, which really shows up during a power on stall, is 
that your ailerons are useless until you recover.  You are handling the plane 
with rudder and elevator. -Jeff ScottN1213W -- Original Message 
--

Hello Phil,

I once had a conversation with an early KR pilot that personally knew Ken Rand. 
He said that he did a full power stall in his KR at 9000 feet. He said it took 
more than 8000 feet to recover. It was so bad he said he had already decided 
that he was going to die but tried one more time and was able to get it to come 
out of the spin. It is not the "KR" that is the problem but any close coupled 
high power to weightairplane. It is not going to stay straight when it 
stalls 
unless the ball is perfectly centered. 

I have more than 17,000 hours and a lot of aerobatic experience and I would not 
stall the KR with full power. 

I am not saying not to do it because I don't know your qualifications but 
simply 
wanted you to know what to expect based on the experience of this guy.
On another note as a KR guy if you are ever in the southern part of Alabama 
look 
me up and we can go do some flying. 


Victor Taylor
Irvington Alabama



__

SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
BREAKING NEWS: High ticket items are being auctioned for an incredible 90% off!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cf9212bf3a754eba86st03vuc

KR> Stalls

[velocityo...@yahoo.com]

Hello Phil,

I once had a conversation with an early KR pilot that personally knew Ken Rand. 
He said that he did a full power stall in his KR at 9000 feet. He said it took 
more than 8000 feet to recover. It was so bad he said he had already decided 
that he was going to die but tried one more time and was able to get it to come 
out of the spin. It is not the "KR" that is the problem but any close coupled 
high power to weight airplane. It is not going to stay straight when it stalls 
unless the ball is perfectly centered. 

I have more than 17,000 hours and a lot of aerobatic experience and I would not 
stall the KR with full power. 

I am not saying not to do it because I don't know your qualifications but 
simply 
wanted you to know what to expect based on the experience of this guy.
On another note as a KR guy if you are ever in the southern part of Alabama 
look 
me up and we can go do some flying. 


Victor Taylor
Irvington Alabama




From: oceanmanus <oceanma...@yahoo.com>
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 7:17:57 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls

Phil,
Wow, that would be great! Thanks buddy.
Joe Cygan
KR-2S




From: "phillipmathe...@bigpond.com" <phillipmathe...@bigpond.com>
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 9:44:23 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls

Video full stall.
-

Joe that is a good idea. I have now purchased
a small hat mount or glasses mount camera.
I will look at that soon.

Phil Matheson

Down under.

___
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KR> Stalls

[gene timpson]

I have a friends who have filmed alot of aerobatics from inside and outside the 
plane w/ cameras mounted in various places. goprocamera.com datatoys.com for 
the systems used. Their #1 rule is the camera must be on a solid mount. No hat 
or helment mounts. The footage is usually not usable and will make those with a 
weak stomach sick when they watch it from all of the small movements of the 
camera. Hope that helps.

GT

--- On Fri, 12/3/10, oceanmanus <oceanma...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: oceanmanus <oceanma...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: KR> Stalls
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 8:17 AM
> Phil,
>  Wow, that would be great! Thanks buddy.
> Joe Cygan
> KR-2S
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "phillipmathe...@bigpond.com"
> <phillipmathe...@bigpond.com>
> To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 9:44:23 PM
> Subject: Re: KR> Stalls
> 
> Video full stall.
> -
> 
> Joe that is a good idea. I have now purchased
> a small hat mount or glasses mount camera.
> I will look at that soon.
> 
> Phil Matheson
> 
> Down under.
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls

[oceanmanus]

Too bad you did not have that on video. 




From: Mark Langford <m...@n56ml.com>
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 7:09:02 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls

"Joe" wrote:

Anybody have a "in the cockpit" video of a KR2/KR2S in a full stall?

I don't have a video, but I've got one "full power full stall" permanently 
fried into my brain.  Left wing drops, plane drops and rolls inverted, 
accelerates toward the ground at an incredible rate, everything in the plane 
sticks to the top of the canopy and ends up in the tail.  Fortunately I was 
at about 5000' when I started.  This was early in my 40 hour test phase, and 
I didn't realize the implications of a full power "accelerated" stall.  I 
was watching the airspeed indicator, rather than the ball on the turn and 
bank indicator, which was a real mistake.  I don't know how many g's I 
pulled getting out of that dive, but losing the wings certainly occured to 
me in the middle of all that.  That's when I bought the g-meter.

I'm not trying to say that a KR is any more dangerous than any other plane. 
I'm only writing this so others that are as inexperienced as I was will take 
full-power stalls more seriously than I did.  Why would you even need to 
know how and at what speed it stalls at full power?  Consider too steep a 
climbout on takeoff and you'll understand.  Now I have a very healthy 
respect for that flight regime, and I avoid the possibility at all costs.

I guess that doesn't help you out with a video though

Mark Langford
ML "at" N56ML.com
website www.n56ml.com


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KR> Stalls

[oceanmanus]

Phil,
 Wow, that would be great! Thanks buddy.
Joe Cygan
KR-2S




From: "phillipmathe...@bigpond.com" <phillipmathe...@bigpond.com>
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 9:44:23 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls

Video full stall.
-

Joe that is a good idea. I have now purchased
a small hat mount or glasses mount camera.
I will look at that soon.

Phil Matheson

Down under.

___
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please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Stalls

[Mark Langford]

"Joe" wrote:

Anybody have a "in the cockpit" video of a KR2/KR2S in a full stall?

I don't have a video, but I've got one "full power full stall" permanently 
fried into my brain.  Left wing drops, plane drops and rolls inverted, 
accelerates toward the ground at an incredible rate, everything in the plane 
sticks to the top of the canopy and ends up in the tail.  Fortunately I was 
at about 5000' when I started.  This was early in my 40 hour test phase, and 
I didn't realize the implications of a full power "accelerated" stall.  I 
was watching the airspeed indicator, rather than the ball on the turn and 
bank indicator, which was a real mistake.  I don't know how many g's I 
pulled getting out of that dive, but losing the wings certainly occured to 
me in the middle of all that.  That's when I bought the g-meter.

I'm not trying to say that a KR is any more dangerous than any other plane. 
I'm only writing this so others that are as inexperienced as I was will take 
full-power stalls more seriously than I did.  Why would you even need to 
know how and at what speed it stalls at full power?  Consider too steep a 
climbout on takeoff and you'll understand.  Now I have a very healthy 
respect for that flight regime, and I avoid the possibility at all costs.

I guess that doesn't help you out with a video though

Mark Langford
ML "at" N56ML.com
website www.n56ml.com

KR> Stalls

[phillipmathe...@bigpond.com]

Video full stall.
-

Joe that is a good idea. I have now purchased
a small hat mount or glasses mount camera.
I will look at that soon.

Phil Matheson

Down under.

KR> Stalls

[oceanmanus]

Anybody have a "in the cockpit" video of a KR2/KR2S in a full stall?

Joe

KR> Stalls

[D F Lively]

Mark:

I recall from slow flight training in a 150 when I was made to stall the
aircraft in a turn--- The high wing would always break first and that was a good
way to get into a spin but 150s are pretty forgiving  and did not snap-roll
easily and were not designed to thake that but the altimeter would really unwind
like a clock with a broken spring.

Don
  

Mark Langford wrote:

> It should be no surprise that spelling is a totally lost art on KRnet, but
> we seem to get the message anyway.
>
> As for tail stalls, I don't know what causes it, but several times I've done
> stalls that resulted in an immediate snap roll, several turns in a spin, and
> then end over end tumbles for a few thousand feet.  So far I've managed to
> recover before I hit the ground.  But them I'm an ace KR pilot, so that's
> nothing to me.
>
> I've got to quit drinking and emailing.  Consider the previous paragraph a
> late April Fool's joke...
>
> Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
> see homebuilt airplane with 188 hours on it at http://www.N56ML.com
> email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[D F Lively]

Listees:

Joe Beyer Claims his craft stalls at 46 mph.

I ran air calck on the RAF48 airfoil @ 900# with the 78 sf wing area
claimed and sure enough got a clean power off stall 52 mph.  I then put
51 as a given  with a Lift Coef. of 1.5 and then 1.6 and  got max.
allowable gross weights of  780# and 830# respectively.

Can anyone confirm their stall speeds at these gross weights or can any
one tell me their clean fixed gear stall speeds at thier actual clean
fixed gear gross weight at the time.

Don

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Mark Langford]

Don wrote:

> Can anyone confirm their stall speeds at these gross weights or can any
> one tell me their clean fixed gear stall speeds at thier actual clean
> fixed gear gross weight at the time.

I don't know that anybody can really "confirm" their stall speeds.  It 
sounds easy enough, but somehow you have to correleate your airspeed to 
ground speed, and that requires a dead calm atmosphere at 5000' (which I'm 
not sure ever happens), or doing stalls in 4 directions while watching GPS 
ground speed (I can tell you THAT ain't no fun!).   I've spent a lot of time 
trying to get a grip on my actual airspeed down that low, and the best I can 
tell you is on my web page:  Stall speed: 58 mph with split flaps deployed, 
62 mph "clean", and that was at about 1000 pounds.  It should be noted that 
my wings are about 14" shorter on each end than the plans call for (no foam 
extensions), and my wing's lift is being compromised by the lack of gap 
seals, not to mention gritty primer overspray on the wings.  So even with my 
best efforts, that's probably no help to you...

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Larry Flesner]

>   It should be noted that
>my wings are about 14" shorter on each end than the plans call for (no foam
>extensions), and my wing's lift is being compromised by the lack of gap
>seals, not to mention gritty primer overspray on the wings.  So even with my
>best efforts, that's probably no help to you...
>Mark Langford



Mark,

I'll also note for you ( :-) ) that you have the new airfoil, not the RAF48.
I have the RAF48 airfoil with 4 inch tips instead of 8 inch as called for
in the plans.  My usual ramp weight is probably 1050 to 1100 pounds
for most flights.  I probably lift off in the 55 to 60 mph range and
estimate my actual stall to be in the 55 mph range at altitude.  I can
maintain altitude at 40 to 45 indicated but we all know how accurate
that is.  I have flown formation with a two place Kolb tandem before
if that gives you any idea of how slow the KR can fly under total control.
With my weight and wing area I want to be in ground effect at 60 mph
indicated or else have plenty of distance between me and the ground.
On the flip side, my KR has the most gentle stall characteristics of any
aircraft I've ever flown and is capable of the softest "kiss it on" landings
on a consistent basis also.  ONE SWEET LITTLE BIRD !

Larry Flesner   ---  199.2 hours and counting !!  Hope to hit 200 in two
years and one month this weekend !!

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Mark Langford]

I should also mention that there are several more KR stall speeds listed at 
Orma's site at http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/krinfo.htm .  Mine 
needs updating, now that I know a little more about the error in my airpseed 
indicator, and there are a lot of KRs that aren't listed there, so download 
the Excel file or text file, edit it (in red, preferably) and send it back 
to Orma for inclusion into the file.

Hows that engine rebuild coming, Orma?  The Gathering isn't that far away...

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[zorc...@aol.com]

Gee Mark,

Did you ever consider that that "gritty overspray" may be energizing your  
boundry layer, and delaying your stall??  I guess you won't know until it  all 
gets polished out, and you fall out of the sky at a higher speed. ,}

Bill Zorc

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Mark Langford]

I wrote:  "you have to correleate your airspeed to ground speed..."

And Steve Jacobs wrote: "Why?  Anything other than TAS is irrelevant."

WHY?  Because the man is trying to do engineering calculations, so what Joe, 
Bob, or Bill's airspeed indicator is reading at stall is irrelevant without 
some frame of reference to tie back to the real world, and about the only 
one that's even remotely easy to correlate to is ground speed from a GPS. 
Airpseed indicators and static/pitot systems are notoriously inaccurate at 
low speeds.  Just throwing a number at him as gospel is guaranteed to give 
him inaccurate data, which is not what he needs.  I assume he's trying to 
design a plane that will meet Sport Pilot regulations (don't shoot me, I'm 
just the messenger).  Just look at the spread of "stall speeds" in the list 
at http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/krinfo.xls ...they range from 
46-60 mph.  And if my correct "clean" speed were on there, it would be 
46-62.

I think you missed the point of his question and my answer...

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net



- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Jacobs" <st...@johnmartin.co.za>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:19 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


> you have to correleate your airspeed to ground speed, ...
>
> +
>
> Why?  Anything other than TAS is irrelevant.
>
> TAS (IAS or CAS) is all the pilot has to inform him of the onset of a 
> stall.
> I agree that it would be dufficult to establish and quanyify TAS at stall
> (or any other flight situation) due to position error, instrument error,
> calibration and even static source - thus important to establish the stall
> speed in terms of IAS for each airplane.
>
> Have a great weekend
> Steve
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[feg...@sbcglobal.net]

When you are flying a general aviation aircraft you are
limited to the airspeed limitations in the aircraft operating
manual, which were calibrated for that particular aircraft.
Therefore, we should do the same.
JR
SanFrancisco

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:32 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


>I wrote:  "you have to correleate your airspeed to ground speed..."
>
> And Steve Jacobs wrote: "Why?  Anything other than TAS is irrelevant."
>
> WHY?  Because the man is trying to do engineering calculations, so what 
> Joe,
> Bob, or Bill's airspeed indicator is reading at stall is irrelevant 
> without
> some frame of reference to tie back to the real world, and about the only
> one that's even remotely easy to correlate to is ground speed from a GPS.
> Airpseed indicators and static/pitot systems are notoriously inaccurate at
> low speeds.  Just throwing a number at him as gospel is guaranteed to give
> him inaccurate data, which is not what he needs.  I assume he's trying to
> design a plane that will meet Sport Pilot regulations (don't shoot me, I'm
> just the messenger).  Just look at the spread of "stall speeds" in the 
> list
> at http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/krinfo.xls ...they range from
> 46-60 mph.  And if my correct "clean" speed were on there, it would be
> 46-62.
>
> I think you missed the point of his question and my answer...
>
> Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
> see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com
> email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Steve Jacobs" <st...@johnmartin.co.za>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:19 AM
> Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights
>
>
>> you have to correleate your airspeed to ground speed, ...
>>
>> +
>>
>> Why?  Anything other than TAS is irrelevant.
>>
>> TAS (IAS or CAS) is all the pilot has to inform him of the onset of a
>> stall.
>> I agree that it would be dufficult to establish and quanyify TAS at stall
>> (or any other flight situation) due to position error, instrument error,
>> calibration and even static source - thus important to establish the 
>> stall
>> speed in terms of IAS for each airplane.
>>
>> Have a great weekend
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>
>
>
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Mark Langford]

JR wrote:

> When you are flying a general aviation aircraft you are
> limited to the airspeed limitations in the aircraft operating
> manual, which were calibrated for that particular aircraft.
> Therefore, we should do the same.

Well there's your answer then.  Just pick up your KR2Sport Operator's
Manual, read the stall speed, and make your calculations. So I stand
corrected.  Please disregard any comments from me, as I obviously did not
realize how simple this really was.  Sorry for wasting the bandwidth...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
--

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[feg...@sbcglobal.net]

I am surprised that a simple solution is always taken as an insult.
If you are not familiar with the procedure for establishing
airspeed limitations that GA uses, then dont take it
as an insult, just admit it and then find out how it is
done by the rest of aviation and stop guessing and probably get yourself and 
others in a possible jam.
JR
SanFrancisco


- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


> JR wrote:
>
>> When you are flying a general aviation aircraft you are
>> limited to the airspeed limitations in the aircraft operating
>> manual, which were calibrated for that particular aircraft.
>> Therefore, we should do the same.
>
> Well there's your answer then.  Just pick up your KR2Sport Operator's
> Manual, read the stall speed, and make your calculations. So I stand
> corrected.  Please disregard any comments from me, as I obviously did not
> realize how simple this really was.  Sorry for wasting the bandwidth...
>
> Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
> see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
> email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> --
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Donald Reid]

At 10:40 AM 3/18/2006, you wrote:
>I am surprised that a simple solution is always taken as an insult.
>If you are not familiar with the procedure for establishing
>airspeed limitations that GA uses, then dont take it
>as an insult, just admit it and then find out how it is
>done by the rest of aviation and stop guessing and probably get yourself and
>others in a possible jam.

You just set yourself up for an amazing amount of flame.  You implied 
that a very qualified engineer and KR pilot does not know something 
that simple.  The discussion thread was related to instrument 
uncertainty and as-built differences in experimental aircraft.  It is 
probably time for you to beat a hasty retreat because the abuse is 
about to begin.



Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
Bumpass, Va

Visit my web sites at:

AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
http://aerofoilengineering.com

KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
Aviation Surplus: http://aerofoilengineering.com/PartsListing/Airparts.htm
EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
Ultralights: http://usua250.org
VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Mark Jones]

You know, sometimes it just is not worth the effort to flame someone that
simply does not know what the he$$ he is talking about. We all know who are
true KR die hards here and it always seems the ignorant statements are from
those who all of a sudden pop up out of no where. This is one reason so many
great KR diehards are no longer on this list.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI  USA
E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
Visit my NEW
KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com



- Original Message - 
From: "Donald Reid" <donr...@peoplepc.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


> At 10:40 AM 3/18/2006, you wrote:
> >I am surprised that a simple solution is always taken as an insult.
> >If you are not familiar with the procedure for establishing
> >airspeed limitations that GA uses, then dont take it
> >as an insult, just admit it and then find out how it is
> >done by the rest of aviation and stop guessing and probably get yourself
and
> >others in a possible jam.
>
> You just set yourself up for an amazing amount of flame.  You implied
> that a very qualified engineer and KR pilot does not know something
> that simple.  The discussion thread was related to instrument
> uncertainty and as-built differences in experimental aircraft.  It is
> probably time for you to beat a hasty retreat because the abuse is
> about to begin.
>
>
>
> Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
> Bumpass, Va
>
> Visit my web sites at:
>
> AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
> http://aerofoilengineering.com
>
> KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
> Aviation Surplus: http://aerofoilengineering.com/PartsListing/Airparts.htm
> EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
> Ultralights: http://usua250.org
> VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[feg...@sbcglobal.net]

Hi,
   I gave a very straight forward recomendation to a question on airspeed 
limitations in my first paragraph
when I suggested Calibrated airspeed and well you can
read the flame I received for yourself.
  And one should never suggest someone else has
credentials, which I am familiar with, without taking
into consideration the credentials of the other person.
  And I am very familiar with the intimidation tactics
used by certain individuals who have taken over
this net.
JR
SanFrancisco
- Original Message - 
From: "Donald Reid" <donr...@peoplepc.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


> At 10:40 AM 3/18/2006, you wrote:
>>I am surprised that a simple solution is always taken as an insult.
>>If you are not familiar with the procedure for establishing
>>airspeed limitations that GA uses, then dont take it
>>as an insult, just admit it and then find out how it is
>>done by the rest of aviation and stop guessing and probably get yourself 
>>and
>>others in a possible jam.
>
> You just set yourself up for an amazing amount of flame.  You implied
> that a very qualified engineer and KR pilot does not know something
> that simple.  The discussion thread was related to instrument
> uncertainty and as-built differences in experimental aircraft.  It is
> probably time for you to beat a hasty retreat because the abuse is
> about to begin.
>
>
>
> Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
> Bumpass, Va
>
> Visit my web sites at:
>
> AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
> http://aerofoilengineering.com
>
> KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
> Aviation Surplus: http://aerofoilengineering.com/PartsListing/Airparts.htm
> EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
> Ultralights: http://usua250.org
> VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[D F Lively]

Listees:

What started all of this was a 1979 plans set that I have that was an upgrade
from a set I purchased in the mid 70's that stated that the KR2 had a stall of
42 and a maximum level flight speed of  150 mph with a 1600 cc engine.  I have
never liked the retract system of the original design from a reliability stand
poit though its locking mechanics were an exercise in elegant simplicity.  It
also seemed reasonable that the 138 mph permitted sport plane maximum could
readily be achieved by moving to fixed gear.  This of course was just  something
that seemed logical and I never questioned the 42 mph stall as stated in the
plans set that I had.  Later in examining more recent performance specs I
observed that the stall speed had been changed to 52 mph and began to
investigate what went on here,  it even has crossed my mind that it may well be
nothing more than a simple typographical error in the plans set that I purchased
so I set out to figure out what was going on here.  I learned long ago that such
discrepencies can lead to big problems if not dealt with.

This led me into uncharted waters and a process that has been most educational
and I have leared a lot.  It is also apparent to me that most KR builders on the
KRnet built their craft before the "Sport Plane" catagory came into play or was
even considered for that matter so there was very little need to even
investigate the issue.  I am certainly not an engineer in the area of
aeronautics and do have a lot of  ignorance  in that area and what I do have is
enough to be dangerous and a direct enough approach as to be irritating when I
raise questions.  Ihave about 350 hours total time and have had a engine failure
in a laminar flow winged cardinal which I set down on a jeep trail half way
between Palm Springs and the Colorado River in the So. CA desert.

I was just looking to see if anyone else had looked into issues of leading edge
slots as a means of  decreasing stall speeds and issues iunvolved.  I also was
inqiring about wing spanchanges because I know that Ken Rand was working on a
long winged version of the KR-1 he had designated the KR-1B.

Don
  

feg...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> I am surprised that a simple solution is always taken as an insult.
> If you are not familiar with the procedure for establishing
> airspeed limitations that GA uses, then dont take it
> as an insult, just admit it and then find out how it is
> done by the rest of aviation and stop guessing and probably get yourself and
> others in a possible jam.
> JR
> SanFrancisco
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:41 AM
> Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights
>
> > JR wrote:
> >
> >> When you are flying a general aviation aircraft you are
> >> limited to the airspeed limitations in the aircraft operating
> >> manual, which were calibrated for that particular aircraft.
> >> Therefore, we should do the same.
> >
> > Well there's your answer then.  Just pick up your KR2Sport Operator's
> > Manual, read the stall speed, and make your calculations. So I stand
> > corrected.  Please disregard any comments from me, as I obviously did not
> > realize how simple this really was.  Sorry for wasting the bandwidth...
> >
> > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
> > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
> > email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> > --
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Larry Flesner]

At 08:20 AM 3/18/2006, you wrote:
>When you are flying a general aviation aircraft you are
>limited to the airspeed limitations in the aircraft operating
>manual, which were calibrated for that particular aircraft.
>Therefore, we should do the same.
>JR


The only airspeed "limitations" I'm aware of for the KR2, as mentioned in
the plans, is the 200mph VNE.  I have a "one of a kind" speed brake that
I have, and usually do, deploy at 110mph indicated and as of yet have not
had it leave the aircraft.  I've set that as my speed limit on deployment.  My
ASI seems to be dead on at most airspeeds.  What other limitations do I
need to determine and how do I go about it?  Keep in mind that my KR is
a 24 inch stretch with all standard tail volume, 8 inch shorter than plans
wing, heavier than most at 765 empty, CG mid range for most flights, one
of a kind canopy and turtle deck shape, etc.  When the air gets rough I slow
down and when I get heavy in the seat I quit pulling back on the stick.  I keep
the indicated airspeed above the indicated stall when close to the ground
and pull back on the stick on takeoff when it feels like it wants to 
fly.  I've not
flown my KR near any limits except maybe the 200mph VNE on a high speed
pass with Mark L. .  I'll admit to not having done a great job of 
flight testing
and most of the operating numbers are in my head but then I'm the only one
who has ever flown my KR.  I suspect that's the case with most KR's.  I hope
my next 200 hours are as enjoyable as the first 200.

This is not a flame but just my opinion of what I suspect to be 
reality in the world
of home built aircraft, right or wrong.

Larry Flesner

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[VIRGIL N SALISBURY]

I have the KR-1B Wing plans. One thing RR is passionate about is 
not lengthening the wings more than their wing skins do. The stress of 
the longer wings has not been figured for "G" loads. I believe the center

spar is the weak point, Virg

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:02:40 -0600 D F Lively <riksh...@interl.net>
writes:
> Listees:
> 
> What started all of this was a 1979 plans set that I have that was 
> an upgrade
> from a set I purchased in the mid 70's that stated that the KR2 had 
> a stall of
> 42 and a maximum level flight speed of  150 mph with a 1600 cc 
> engine.  I have
> never liked the retract system of the original design from a 
> reliability stand
> poit though its locking mechanics were an exercise in elegant 
> simplicity.  It
> also seemed reasonable that the 138 mph permitted sport plane 
> maximum could
> readily be achieved by moving to fixed gear.  This of course was 
> just  something
> that seemed logical and I never questioned the 42 mph stall as 
> stated in the
> plans set that I had.  Later in examining more recent performance 
> specs I
> observed that the stall speed had been changed to 52 mph and began 
> to
> investigate what went on here,  it even has crossed my mind that it 
> may well be
> nothing more than a simple typographical error in the plans set that 
> I purchased
> so I set out to figure out what was going on here.  I learned long 
> ago that such
> discrepencies can lead to big problems if not dealt with.
> 
> This led me into uncharted waters and a process that has been most 
> educational
> and I have leared a lot.  It is also apparent to me that most KR 
> builders on the
> KRnet built their craft before the "Sport Plane" catagory came into 
> play or was
> even considered for that matter so there was very little need to 
> even
> investigate the issue.  I am certainly not an engineer in the area 
> of
> aeronautics and do have a lot of  ignorance  in that area and what I 
> do have is
> enough to be dangerous and a direct enough approach as to be 
> irritating when I
> raise questions.  Ihave about 350 hours total time and have had a 
> engine failure
> in a laminar flow winged cardinal which I set down on a jeep trail 
> half way
> between Palm Springs and the Colorado River in the So. CA desert.
> 
> I was just looking to see if anyone else had looked into issues of 
> leading edge
> slots as a means of  decreasing stall speeds and issues iunvolved.  
> I also was
> inqiring about wing spanchanges because I know that Ken Rand was 
> working on a
> long winged version of the KR-1 he had designated the KR-1B.
> 
> Don
>   
>

> 
> feg...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> 
> > I am surprised that a simple solution is always taken as an 
> insult.
> > If you are not familiar with the procedure for establishing
> > airspeed limitations that GA uses, then dont take it
> > as an insult, just admit it and then find out how it is
> > done by the rest of aviation and stop guessing and probably get 
> yourself and
> > others in a possible jam.
> > JR
> > SanFrancisco
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
> > To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights
> >
> > > JR wrote:
> > >
> > >> When you are flying a general aviation aircraft you are
> > >> limited to the airspeed limitations in the aircraft operating
> > >> manual, which were calibrated for that particular aircraft.
> > >> Therefore, we should do the same.
> > >
> > > Well there's your answer then.  Just pick up your KR2Sport 
> Operator's
> > > Manual, read the stall speed, and make your calculations. So I 
> stand
> > > corrected.  Please disregard any comments from me, as I 
> obviously did not
> > > realize how simple this really was.  Sorry for wasting the 
> bandwidth...
> > >
> > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
> > > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
> > > email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to 
> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > > please see other KRnet info at http:

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Bob Glidden]

What procedures are used to set GA aircraft???I thought our planes even 
though Experimental are still GA airplanes Hell if you go off of RR 
suggestions we would all still be building the old RAF48 airfoil.Nothing 
wrong with this wing,but testing and research by our own KR family members 
found one that works better.I thought building and testing to find our own 
aircrafts limitations was what "EXPERIMENTAL" was all about.Spam can have 
the numbers they do to cover their butts,and most of them are set based on 
ideal condition and weather,something we don't always get...Just my 
thoughts.

Bob Glidden
Eminence,Indiana
KR2S N181FW (building)
Corvair 110
glid...@ccrtc.com 

---
---

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[feg...@sbcglobal.net]

Bob, you are absolutley correct.
And the airspeeds are Indicated; True; Calibrated.
JR
SanFrancisco

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Glidden" <glid...@ccrtc.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


> What procedures are used to set GA aircraft???I thought our planes even
> though Experimental are still GA airplanes Hell if you go off of RR
> suggestions we would all still be building the old RAF48 airfoil.Nothing
> wrong with this wing,but testing and research by our own KR family members
> found one that works better.I thought building and testing to find our own
> aircrafts limitations was what "EXPERIMENTAL" was all about.Spam can have
> the numbers they do to cover their butts,and most of them are set based on
> ideal condition and weather,something we don't always get...Just my
> thoughts.
>
> Bob Glidden
> Eminence,Indiana
> KR2S N181FW (building)
> Corvair 110
> glid...@ccrtc.com
>
> ---
> ---
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[zorc...@aol.com]

Come on guys!

Get serious!  Anyone who is looking at an airspeed indicator to  determine 
when an airplane is going to stall needs to learn how to fly.   While airspeed 
(actually equivalent airspeed [EAS], look it up)  can  be helpful to measure 
performance, when it comes down to flying the plane if you  can't feel an 
impending stall, you really should spend some time with a good  flight 
instructor.  
After all, depending on how much you load the wing, by  pulling a few g's in a 
turn, or pitching upwards, you can literally stall the  wing at any speed or 
atitude.  

Bill Zorc
KR-2.5 50%
active CFII for the last 30 years
A-300-600 Captain UPS

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Fred Lowerre]

  I am almost done restoring this KR2 I bought 6mos ago.RM 2100D,stock 
KR2 gross weight 525lbs. I'm not an engineer or test pilot.I just want to have 
fun! This is my first aircraft project and my first attempt at anything not 
"certified". Not all C-150's or PA28's stall at exactly the same speed but they 
are pretty close,right?Are KR's all so different from one another that they 
don't find similar flight envelopes/airspeeds? What kind of airspeeds should I 
expect for takeoff,climb,approach,stall,etc. when next month I strap into this 
thing and go fly? No offense, but I find some of your' guy's arguments a bit 
confusing at bestFred


-
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze. 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[feg...@sbcglobal.net]

That must be why they installed those bells and horns
on that airbus.
JR
SanFrancisco

- Original Message - 
From: <zorc...@aol.com>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Stalls @ gross weights


> Come on guys!
>
> Get serious!  Anyone who is looking at an airspeed indicator to  determine
> when an airplane is going to stall needs to learn how to fly.   While 
> airspeed
> (actually equivalent airspeed [EAS], look it up)  can  be helpful to 
> measure
> performance, when it comes down to flying the plane if you  can't feel an
> impending stall, you really should spend some time with a good  flight 
> instructor.
> After all, depending on how much you load the wing, by  pulling a few g's 
> in a
> turn, or pitching upwards, you can literally stall the  wing at any speed 
> or
> atitude.
>
> Bill Zorc
> KR-2.5 50%
> active CFII for the last 30 years
> A-300-600 Captain UPS
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[bo...@hatconversions.com]

Fred,
 Where are you? I have 2 of these things with Continentals almost ready.
Bobby Murty
Hatconversions.com
Canon City, Co
719-240-4244




>   I am almost done restoring this KR2 I bought 6mos ago.RM
> 2100D,stock KR2 gross weight 525lbs. I'm not an engineer or test
> pilot.I just want to have fun! This is my first aircraft project
> and my first attempt at anything not "certified". Not all
> C-150's or PA28's stall at exactly the same speed but they are
> pretty close,right?Are KR's all so different from one another
> that they don't find similar flight envelopes/airspeeds? What
> kind of airspeeds should I expect for
> takeoff,climb,approach,stall,etc. when next month I strap into
> this thing and go fly? No offense, but I find some of your'
> guy's arguments a bit confusing at bestFred
>
>
> -
> Yahoo! Mail
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> Stalls @ gross weights

[Larry Flesner]

>
>Get serious!  Anyone who is looking at an airspeed indicator to  determine
>when an airplane is going to stall needs to learn how to fly.
>Bill Zorc
+

That's true but I think you may have missed the point.  I think some
were questioning at what airspeed the KR stalls and were trying to
get past the usual error in most ASI systems that you find in many
KR's in order to determine that number.

While it's true that in most "certified" aircraft you should know when
you're close to a stall by control forces, location, pitch attitude,etc.,
the KR can sneak up on you if you're not paying attention.  Pitch
attitude is probably the best indicator of impending stall in the KR
for a 1 G stall as the control forces are VERY light.  I feel no difference
in stick pitch forces at 55 as I do at 95.  Your weight in the seat is
probably the best indicator to pay attention for the more aggressive
stalls.

During takeoff and landing, at anything below about 65 to 70mph in
my KR, I seldom know what the ASI reads as I'm looking out the
window, feeling what the KR is telling me, and flying the airplane.
Above that in the landing / takeoff / climbout phase, I don't think
anyone is good enough to fly consistent  and proper patterns without
some type of indicator, be it ASI, A of A, or whatever.

For now, I'm off to the airport to test my advise some more.  I should
hit the 200 hour mark today if the weather holds.

Larry Flesner

KR> Stalls

[Colin & Bev Rainey]

Dennis and netters
The reason that some planes can "lift" a wing in slow flight while others can't 
has to do with a long "arm" or simply the leverage that the rudder has due to 
the length of the tailboom. Although some of the trainers allow for use of the 
rudder alone to lift a wing during slow flights and stalls, this is mainly done 
by CFI's in training to build control confidence in the student so that the 
student gets used to small inputs, and being smooth, not because the rudder is 
the preferred control device.  Some ultralights fly with only rudder and 
elevator due to their slow speeds allow for the application of rudder to make a 
turn which momentarily skids the plane, but slows the in board wing causing it 
to drop, while speeding up the out board, causing it to lift. The trainers do 
the same thing, and can "get away" with using this uncoordinated approach to 
turning. It is also to build confidence in the student for later spin recovery 
if ever it has to be done. Application of ailerons then will only cause a 
tighter spin. By design the rudder is only used to maintain coordinated flight 
to correct for yaw. 

The wing washout is by design an attempt to maintain some aileron effectiveness 
as the aircraft slows down. Not always can they maintain positive aileron 
control near the stall, but that is the effort anyway. It is also more 
primarily apart of the design to insure that the stall occurs at the wing root, 
and not the tip so that the stall characteristics will be more forgiving, and 
more control is preserved than would be otherwise, (stall occurring at the 
wingtip first).

Colin Rainey
Sanford, FL

KR> Stalls

[Donald Reid]

At 08:26 PM 7/13/2005, you wrote:
>Dennis and netters
>The reason that some planes can "lift" a wing in slow flight while 
>others can't has to do with a long "arm" or simply the leverage that 
>the rudder has due to the length of the tailboom.


Not entirely true.  The more dihedral the plane has, the more 
pronounced the yaw/roll coupling (lift a wing with rudder) will 
be.  High wing have more effective dihedral than low wings due to the 
location of the center of gravity, so a KR looses a some of the 
potential for lifting a wing with rudder.

>  Although some of the trainers allow for use of the rudder alone to 
> lift a wing during slow flights and stalls, this is mainly done by 
> CFI's in training to build control confidence in the student so 
> that the student gets used to small inputs, and being smooth, not 
> because the rudder is the preferred control device.

Also not entirely true.  My father was a P47 pilot.  He has told me 
that they were taught to always use rudder to pick up a wing when 
they were slow.  In certain situations, the wing will stall abruptly 
toward the low wing when you try and lift it with ailerons 
alone.  For example, you can read Delmar Benjamin's book about his 
experiences with the GeeBee R1 replica.  In one of his early flights, 
it almost snap rolled on final approach when he tried to raise the 
wing with aileron.  He said that after that event, he used rudder to 
lift the wing in slow flight.




Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
Bumpass, Va

Visit my web sites at:

AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
http://aerofoilengineering.com

KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
Aviation Surplus: http://aerofoilengineering.com/PartsListing/Airparts.htm
EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
Ultralights: http://usua250.org
VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org

KR> Stalls

[Dennis Mingear]

Thanks Don, Between your post and Collins a pretty
clear picture is emerging regarding slow flight in
aircraft.

The use of rudder and aileron during slow flight
depends on a host of issues, some subtle and some not
so subtle.

I'm beginning to wonder just how important washout
really is in this mix with respect to low wing
aircraft.

Some KR's use alot of washout and it was pointed out
earlier that washout can play a big roll in how
ailerons behave at high angles of attack, so I wonder
if this might help explain some of its slow flight
handling characteristics?

Denny ...

--- Donald Reid  wrote:

> At 08:26 PM 7/13/2005, you wrote:
> >Dennis and netters
> >The reason that some planes can "lift" a wing in
> slow flight while 
> >others can't has to do with a long "arm" or simply
> the leverage that 
> >the rudder has due to the length of the tailboom.
> 
> 
> Not entirely true.  The more dihedral the plane has,
> the more 
> pronounced the yaw/roll coupling (lift a wing with
> rudder) will 
> be.  High wing have more effective dihedral than low
> wings due to the 
> location of the center of gravity, so a KR looses a
> some of the 
> potential for lifting a wing with rudder.
> 
> >  Although some of the trainers allow for use of
> the rudder alone to 
> > lift a wing during slow flights and stalls, this
> is mainly done by 
> > CFI's in training to build control confidence in
> the student so 
> > that the student gets used to small inputs, and
> being smooth, not 
> > because the rudder is the preferred control
> device.
> 
> Also not entirely true.  My father was a P47 pilot. 
> He has told me 
> that they were taught to always use rudder to pick
> up a wing when 
> they were slow.  In certain situations, the wing
> will stall abruptly 
> toward the low wing when you try and lift it with
> ailerons 
> alone.  For example, you can read Delmar Benjamin's
> book about his 
> experiences with the GeeBee R1 replica.  In one of
> his early flights, 
> it almost snap rolled on final approach when he
> tried to raise the 
> wing with aileron.  He said that after that event,
> he used rudder to 
> lift the wing in slow flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
> Bumpass, Va
> 
> Visit my web sites at:
> 
> AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer
> Program:
> http://aerofoilengineering.com
> 
> KR2XL construction:
> http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
> Aviation Surplus:
>
http://aerofoilengineering.com/PartsListing/Airparts.htm
> EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
> Ultralights: http://usua250.org
> VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at
> http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

"I can train a monkey to wave an American flag. That does not make the monkey 
patriotic."

Scott Ritter

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