KR> Ethanol

[Andrew Sugg]

Firstly, I will try to respond to questions and comments about ethanol / my KR 
build as soon as I can. The upcoming events and work load my company is seeing 
may take up a large portion of my "free" time. Thank y'all for being patient.

Something I might need to add: I noticed someone mention corn and ethanol. 
Which yes, it is a not so economical plant to obtain ethanol from. You can use 
any vegetation that has sugar or starches in it. The most economical being 
sugar cane. There is a commune in Brazil that runs a sugar cane/ ethanol plant. 
They are able to use the biproducts of making sugar and ethanol to fertilize 
their fields and fuel their boilers. which reduces production cost.

bjoenunley - The only issue we had with cold weather was on start up of a cold 
engine. Once started we did not notice any unaccounted for difference 
throughout density altitudes and air temperatures, that you wouldn't already be 
accounting for with 100LL.

laser147 - Your cadillac was most likely tuned and built to run on 87 octane 
from the pump. Horrible mileage on ethanol is something that was expected when 
the auto industry started building "flex fuel". If the engine is built and 
tuned to run souly on ethanol fuels, they will run below performance on mogas. 
(think of trying to put regular fuel from the pump in a tuned up race car 
engine, it will run rough with low performance).

Bill Jacobs - Thank you, I know there are different opinions. It is nice to 
discuss those opinions and difference in research and experience. Many of the 
airshows we would fly to or in would be full of people bad mouthing ethanol and 
how horrible it is. Yet, very few would actually talk with us and "debate" the 
advantages and disadvantages of the fuel.

Robert - When we did our C172, we sloshed an etching solution in the tank and 
then a sealing solution. I can not remember the exact solution we used, it did 
take a couple days to complete though. We did regular fuel test to on all our 
aircraft to check for alluminum in the fuel. We never had a positive result for 
alluminum particles in the fuel.

As for preping the engines, if you don't increase the compression ratios then 
you won't take full advantage of the increase power with ethanol. So, we 
increased compression with different pistons, adjusted timing, bored out the 
injection ports (Dr. Shauck's secret as to how much), and ensured everything 
was compatible with ethanol.

As for GPH changes, if the engine was tuned for 100LL we saw on average a 150% 
increase in fuel. Meaning that for every 1 gallon of 100LL we would burn 1.5 
gal of ethanol. When we dyno tuned our IO-360 to ethanol, and ran 50 degrees 
lean of peak EGT (temps would drop on the lean side before reaching max EGT) we 
saw more of a 110% increase in fuel flow.

GRG - Although ethanol does hold water, it can not/ will not absorb enough from 
the atmosphere to cause a problem with engine performance. This is based on our 
research with statics tanks at full and half tank. The test ran for 6 months of 
not touching the fuel tanks we had set out on the parking ramp next to our 
hangar. We then had our universities labratory (Gold standard) check for water 
content. We did however, intentionally add water to the fuel up to 25% water 
75% E85. There was a noticeable increase in horsepower, accompanied by an 
increase in EGT. With that we started reaching max EGT on the IO-360 at 15% 
water, way more than static absorbtion.

When I left the research program back in 2008 we had run two engines to TBO 
limits and had the wear measurements done as part of the research. There was 
less wear on some of the components, and normal wear on others. We equated this 
to the reduced vibration, temperatures, and extended oil life. We still 
maintained the 50 and 100 hour service schedules produced by the engine and 
aircraft manufacturers.

We never had an issue with carbuerator icing on any of our aircraft. It could 
possibly be due to the alcohol having a much lower freezing point, and readily 
absorbing any moisture in the air. I do not recall any research into carb icing 
due to ethanol use, but it would be interesting to see the results of focused 
study.

I do appreciate your input and experience with ethanol. Some of the 
disadvantages can be overcome with engine modifications, or a more agressive 
propeller to take advantage of the added torque and horsepower.

KR> Ethanol Continued

[Bill Jacobs]

Thanks,good additionial data points!Regards,Bill

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 

  On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Gibson Racing Group via KRnet wrote:   Hey, guys.? I usually just lurk, absorb the (often 
extremely) useful information I run across here, and take the rest with a grain 
of salt.? I was also on vacation so might have missed part of this 
conversation,? However, having spent a great deal of time with methanol/ethanol 
in racing, I thought it might be helpful to some readers to mention a thing or 
two.? As stated, alcohol does readily absorb water.? On a race car, as long as 
one takes some care with fuel storage, this is not an issue, but with aircraft 
which can often sit for long periods of time, a person would want to be very 
cognizant of that fact.? Keeping fuel tanks completely full if stored would 
probably be a good idea, and if the plane was going to sit over the winter I?d 
recommend an additive and possibly consider draining/replacing the fuel prior 
to resuming use. Oh, and it is VERY corrosive of aluminum, so unless you can 
guarantee a perfect anodize or other protective barrier, I would be nervous 
about that.? I?ve never seen steel fuel tanks in aircraft.? There are 
undoubtedly suitable composites and/or sealers that would be safe with it, but 
remember all the other components in your system have to be fuel safe, too.

Secondly, as was mentioned alcohol is a great, industrial cleaning agent.? 
Before you get too proud of that fact, though, realize that it does the same 
thing to your cylinder walls during running, washing the oil off of them and 
creating significantly increased wear.? Again, on a race car that would only 
run a couple hundred hours tops between teardown (and much less at full power), 
it was something that could be dealt with, but one would really want to do some 
research on how much one?s TBO would be affected.? Also, because of these 
properties when running rich it can and does get by the rings and into the oil, 
leading to milky, compromised oil.

Alcohol has just about exactly 1/2 the energy of gasoline, so while its octane 
is nice, don?t forget you?ll be running almost exactly twice as much of it.? It 
weighs about a pound a gallon less, if I recall, but the increased capacity 
required to run something on significant percentage of alcohol will be a 
problem.? Also, ?cheap? alcohol tends to get more expensive when you need twice 
as much of it.

Lastly, a desirable quality for ground-level racing on hot summer days is that 
the evaporation qualities of alcohol (and perhaps a bit its hydroscopic 
properties) is that it will positively ice up a manifold as it runs through it, 
greatly cooling the charge which, again, is nice for racing.? However, I have 
no idea how this might play on a plane that was not injected, which have to 
watch for icing even on gasoline.? Again, something I would want to know a lot 
more about.

Just food for thought.


> On Jun 6, 2016, at 5:06 PM, billjacobs386 at yahoo.com via KRnet  list.krnet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>? ? Andrew,The information that you provided is sincerely appreciated. People 
>may have different opinions. BUT you cannot argue with the that much solid 
>data.Thanks again.
> Bill Jacobs
> 
> 
> -- Original message--From: Andrew Sugg via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, 
> 2016 1:17 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: Andrew Sugg;Subject:KR> Ethanol 
> ContinuedTony- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet 
> was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed 
> and anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.- The 
> water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is **


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
options

KR> Ethanol Continued

[Gibson Racing Group]

Hey, guys.  I usually just lurk, absorb the (often extremely) useful 
information I run across here, and take the rest with a grain of salt.  I was 
also on vacation so might have missed part of this conversation,  However, 
having spent a great deal of time with methanol/ethanol in racing, I thought it 
might be helpful to some readers to mention a thing or two.  As stated, alcohol 
does readily absorb water.  On a race car, as long as one takes some care with 
fuel storage, this is not an issue, but with aircraft which can often sit for 
long periods of time, a person would want to be very cognizant of that fact.  
Keeping fuel tanks completely full if stored would probably be a good idea, and 
if the plane was going to sit over the winter I?d recommend an additive and 
possibly consider draining/replacing the fuel prior to resuming use. Oh, and it 
is VERY corrosive of aluminum, so unless you can guarantee a perfect anodize or 
other protective barrier, I would be nervous about that.  I?ve never seen steel 
fuel tanks in aircraft.  There are undoubtedly suitable composites and/or 
sealers that would be safe with it, but remember all the other components in 
your system have to be fuel safe, too.

Secondly, as was mentioned alcohol is a great, industrial cleaning agent.  
Before you get too proud of that fact, though, realize that it does the same 
thing to your cylinder walls during running, washing the oil off of them and 
creating significantly increased wear.  Again, on a race car that would only 
run a couple hundred hours tops between teardown (and much less at full power), 
it was something that could be dealt with, but one would really want to do some 
research on how much one?s TBO would be affected.  Also, because of these 
properties when running rich it can and does get by the rings and into the oil, 
leading to milky, compromised oil.

Alcohol has just about exactly 1/2 the energy of gasoline, so while its octane 
is nice, don?t forget you?ll be running almost exactly twice as much of it.  It 
weighs about a pound a gallon less, if I recall, but the increased capacity 
required to run something on significant percentage of alcohol will be a 
problem.  Also, ?cheap? alcohol tends to get more expensive when you need twice 
as much of it.

Lastly, a desirable quality for ground-level racing on hot summer days is that 
the evaporation qualities of alcohol (and perhaps a bit its hydroscopic 
properties) is that it will positively ice up a manifold as it runs through it, 
greatly cooling the charge which, again, is nice for racing.  However, I have 
no idea how this might play on a plane that was not injected, which have to 
watch for icing even on gasoline.  Again, something I would want to know a lot 
more about.

Just food for thought.


> On Jun 6, 2016, at 5:06 PM, billjacobs386 at yahoo.com via KRnet  list.krnet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>Andrew,The information that you provided is sincerely appreciated. People 
> may have different opinions. BUT you cannot argue with the that much solid 
> data.Thanks again.
> Bill Jacobs
> 
> 
> -- Original message--From: Andrew Sugg via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, 
> 2016 1:17 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: Andrew Sugg;Subject:KR> Ethanol 
> ContinuedTony- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet 
> was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed 
> and anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.- The 
> water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is **

KR> Ethanol Discussion (more than you ever wanted to know...)

[Kidd, Robert]

Andrew,

Appreciate you sharing your insights and research results, and I have a couple 
of questions that I'm genuinely interested in the answers to:

I read through your information and am wondering about this statement you made: 
"We slosh anodized our Cessna tanks..."
I'm not aware that it is possible to anodize aluminum without using an acid 
bath and power supply to grow aluminum oxide out of the surface of the aluminum.
Do you perhaps mean that you used a chromate conversion coating?  Such as 
Alodine, or Iridite, both commercial products that tend to leave a gold colored 
surface?
Both processes (anodize and chromate conversion coating) will leave the surface 
more resistant to corrosion, and both depend on thickness to survive, as they 
gradually "dissolve" in treatments such as salt spray exposure testing.
Just wondering if you could clarify?

What did you have to do to the engines to prep them for running alcohol?  I 
assume there is a difference in carb jetting, and timing, but wondering if 
there is more, and if you could enlighten us about it?
When you got the ~30% hp increase, was there a difference in fuel economy as 
well? (burn rate per hour?)

Thanks,
Robert Kidd


--

Notice: This e-mail is intended solely for use of the individual or entity to 
which it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, 
privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader is 
not the intended recipient or agent responsible for delivering the message to 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. This 
communication may also contain data subject to U.S. export laws. If so, that 
data subject to the International Traffic in Arms Regulation cannot be 
disseminated, distributed or copied to foreign nationals, residing in the U.S. 
or abroad, absent the express prior approval of the U.S. Department of State. 
If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by 
reply e-mail and destroy the e-mail message and any physical copies made of the 
communication. Thank you. 
** **

KR> Ethanol-free autofuel

[Larry Flesner]

A quick and easy to test for alcohol in fuel is to use a clear water 
or soda bottle.  Put approx one inch of water in an empty bottle and 
mark the level with a felt tip pen.  Fill remainder of bottle with 
gas to be tested and shake for 5 seconds or so.  Allow to set for a 
minute or two and, if there is alcohol in the fuel, the apparent 
water level will rise as the water absorbs the alcohol.

I purchased fuel on two occasions from a Shell station that claimed 
no alcohol and both times it contained alcohol.  Very simple test.

Larry Flesner

KR> Ethanol

[billjacobs...@yahoo.com]

Turbochargers and/or Superchargers love the way the input temps drop on 
ethanol. Granted the milage is only 1/4 mile at a time. Most dedicated drag 
cars that run very high boost shy away from gasoline as you dont need to cool 
inlet temps artificially with water injection in the air
Bill Jacobs


-- Original message--From: Mike Stirewalt via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, 
2016 2:55 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: laser147 at juno.com;Subject:KR> 
EthanolI had an old Cadillac with a computer display that would read out 
myreal-time fuel consumption.  I imagine most cars have such things thesedays, 
althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved Cadillac withdoesn't.  
Whenever I would drive cross country and got into the mid-westwhere ethanol is 
sold, my fuel mileage would always go down.  I'm impressed by the statement 
"The fastest cars in the country use it."so obviously I'm suffering form a 
misconception.  I inherently dislikedit because it decreased my fuel mileage 
and because government welfare toall the farmers who grow corn for ethanol 
annoyes me too.  Plus, I'venever trusted it in my KR.  If I do ever use auto 
fuel in the KR(GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I always 
use in myother vehicles.  Calling Chevron headquarters in San Francisco 
severalyears ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it.  It may be 
morenow, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying top 
gradegasoline was not correct.  I think it's all got ethanol in it, except 
forboutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for racing.  Why 
wouldracing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the fastest cars in 
thecountry use it."  I'm not arguing here since I'm not very smart, but 
justrelating my experiences.  Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on 
ethanol-free gas - which hecould get in Omaha.  Here in San Diego it's only 
available fromspecialized racing shops.  From Steve's comments on operation of 
myengine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I haveoccasionally 
put some Chevron Supreme in.  It's always mixed withwhatever 100LL is already 
in the tank.  In my aux tank in the wing, madefrom vinyl ester, I've been 
religious about never putting anything but100LL in it.  I've heard too many 
stories about car gas wreaking havoc totanks and fuel components for me to use 
it more than very occasionally. Just my experience.  I'm still learning new 
things . . .hope we all are. 
Nextiva vFAXWhy Do 
You Still Have An Old Fax 
Machine?http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc___Search
 the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe 
from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other 
KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee 
http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options

KR> Ethanol Continued

[billjacobs...@yahoo.com]

Andrew,The information that you provided is sincerely appreciated. People 
may have different opinions. BUT you cannot argue with the that much solid 
data.Thanks again.
Bill Jacobs


-- Original message--From: Andrew Sugg via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, 2016 
1:17 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: Andrew Sugg;Subject:KR> Ethanol 
ContinuedTony- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet 
was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed and 
anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.- The water 
issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is moonshine, and readily 
absorbs water. Now, you will never get 100% ethanol outside of a labratory. 
Even your 200 proof moonshine is roughly 95% ethanol and 5% water. Part of our 
testing included static tank test, aka fuel sitting in the tank for extended 
periods of time without use or agitation. The highest water absorbtion we saw 
was 5% during a hot, rainy Texas summer. Since the ethanol distributes the 
water, you don't have to worry about water destroying your fuel tank or vapor 
locking the engine. Our tested used E85 (85% ethanol 15% denaturing chemicals). 
We then added water (at 5% incriments) into the fuel tank and ran the engine 
for 5 hours, mimicing all phases of flight. We did go up to 15% water before we 
started hitting peak EGT before backing off on the throttle. In short, your 
fuel tank isn't going to allow enough water vapor in the air to pass into the 
tank and be absorbed to the point of causing noticeable changes. If there is 
that much water, someone poured it into the tank.Chris- E85/E90 is what we 
considered 100% during our testing, because it was 100% ethanol fuel with no 
100LL in the tanks. Fuel manufacturers are required by law to add denaturing 
chemicals to the ethanol fuel so you can't give your car/airplane a gallon and 
a gallon for yourself.- In all my testing and the research that had been 
previously done, I couldn't find anything connecting vapor lock with ethanol 
use. I will state, we did have issues with start up in extremely cold 
temperatures (subzero Farenheit), which was countered with a fuel heater. So, 
probably not a great fuel for Alaskan winters.- For corrosion, we did multiple 
test to include common aircraft metals and composite materials. Ethanol does a 
great job cleaning steel (our 5,000gal steel fuel cell had no corrosion when 
inspected at the 5 year mark. It even cleaned the rust off of a chain that was 
dropped into the tank.). It does eat alluminum, but anodizing protects the 
alluminum components. We slosh anodized our Cessna tanks and saw no problems. 
With the composites, we used E-glass and Aeropoxy resin, gel coat, and carbon 
fiber. We saw no reaction to any composite materials during the 5 year 
testing.Bill- Most auto "flex fuels" are tuned to run on 87 octane, which 
further drives people away. NASCAR and INDY do run ethanol due to it's 
benefits. It also makes fuel spill clean up a lot easier. E90 and E85 are 
becoming more popular, but if you are in an area that has either, you could use 
it. One of the reasons for our testing between different ethanol and 100LL 
testing was for availability reasons. Say someone is able to fly at their home 
airport on ethanol, but was not able to find it during a cross country. You 
wouldn't know the exact ratio. So we tested at 10% incriments betwen 100% 
ethanol fuel (E85) to 100% 100LL. There were no changes in performance, outside 
of what we expected due to fuel flow and horsepower changes that happen between 
the fuels.___Search the KRnet 
Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe from KRnet, 
send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other KRnet info at 
http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee 
http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options

KR> Ethanol-free autofuel - be careful what you buy!

[Mark Langford]

On the subject of ethanol-free gasoline, be careful where you buy it.  I 
don't recommend "no-name" independent gas stations...those with names 
that you've never seen or are very small chains that sell really cheap 
gas, and for good reason.

  Where I live, about 5 years ago almost all of the big chains went to 
ethanol-laced fuel, but the no-name guys still had it.  I was running 
the KR and the Swift both on this stuff (I have the auto-fuel STC for 
the Swift) and I filled the Swift up with some stuff from the local "C 
Fuels" station.  When I was filling the 6 gallon cans at the station, I 
noticed a funky smell emanating from the fuel, but thought maybe it was 
something else.  As I poured it into the Swift, I smelled it again, and 
realized this fuel was tainted with something other than what I was 
familiar with in auto fuel.

A little reading revealed that some of these cheap stations sell 
"plug-fuel", which is stuff that might be part fuel oil (or something 
else) and part gasohol, mixed together in the pipeline in the gap 
between the dividers between two types of fuel.  That's why it's so 
cheap.  It may not have ethanol in it, but there are plenty of worse 
chemicals that it might have in it!

Whatever it was, I walked into the hangar a few days later and it 
wreaked of this same awful smell.  There were big oily puddles below 
each wing root.  This "fuel" had dissolved the rubber hoses that connect 
the tanks to the center header, to the point that both tanks were 
drained, and the hoses had an "alligatored" look to them, like the 
cracked floor of a river bed in the driest part of summer.   "Exploded" 
them would have been a better discription.  I'll have to send a picture 
later.  It was eye-opening to say the least.Needless to say, the 
hoses were replaced and the carb inspected for damage (although it was 
never run through the carb).

Moral of the story is be careful where you buy your ethanol-free fuel. 
I don't know that there are any real laws that dictate exactly what can 
and can't be in "gasoline", especially in Alabama!  Given our total lack 
of  automobile inspections, that's not surprising, and the reason half 
the headlights in this state are either "coon-hunting" (aimed up in the 
trees), or pointed 6' in front of the car!

For those who wonder where they can buy ethanol-free fuel locally, see
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp and click on your state abbreviation near 
the bottom.  Notice that most of the places are "UNBRANDED", at least 
they are for Alabama.  That's your clue.  Our local Raceway (which is 
where I buy all of my car gas, and have yet to find a single drop of 
water or debris in it in 28 years) has recently brought ethanol-free 
back, but alas, it's only 87 octane.  That's OK for the Swift, but not 
the high compression ratio Corvair or VW engine.  But if you can find 
high octane ethanol-free fuel from a reputable chain, it's probably a 
good bet.  I've run several thousand gallons through N56ML and had zero 
problems with it with my vinylester fuel tanks.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Ethanol

[Ronald Wright]

It is a simple matter to separate the ethanol out of the gas.  They recommend 
using Premium fuel due to a drop in octane when taking the ethanol out.  Get a 
clear tank, add ethanol fuel, dump in water and watch it separate out the 
ethanol/water solution.  Drain out the ethanol/water and you only have unleaded 
auto fuel left over.  If you want the specific amount of water to use per 
gallon, Google the question and you will easily find several methods for doing 
this.  Simple and easy to use.  Doesn't take very long to do it either..

Another solution was to add a long length of clear tubing to the gas can with a 
shut off valve at the bottom.  Dump in the water to the fuel, turn the can 
upside down and shake.  Watch the water/ethanol separate in the clean tubing; 
open the valve and let the ethanol/water drain out;  what you have left is pure 
gasoline.

Works great.  Your choice as to whether or not you want to try it.

Ron



On Mon, 6/6/16, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet  wrote:

 Subject: KR> Ethanol
 To: krnet at list.krnet.org
 Cc: laser147 at juno.com
 Date: Monday, June 6, 2016, 1:52 PM

 I had an old Cadillac with a computer
 display that would read out my
 real-time fuel consumption.? I imagine most cars have
 such things these
 days, althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved
 Cadillac with
 doesn't.? Whenever I would drive cross country and got
 into the mid-west
 where ethanol is sold, my fuel mileage would always go
 down.? 

 I'm impressed by the statement "The fastest cars in the
 country use it."
 so obviously I'm suffering form a misconception.? I
 inherently disliked
 it because it decreased my fuel mileage and because
 government welfare to
 all the farmers who grow corn for ethanol annoyes me
 too.? Plus, I've
 never trusted it in my KR.? If I do ever use auto fuel
 in the KR
 (GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I
 always use in my
 other vehicles.? Calling Chevron headquarters in San
 Francisco several
 years ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it.?
 It may be more
 now, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying
 top grade
 gasoline was not correct.? I think it's all got ethanol
 in it, except for
 boutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for
 racing.? Why would
 racing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the
 fastest cars in the
 country use it."? I'm not arguing here since I'm not
 very smart, but just
 relating my experiences.? 

 Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on ethanol-free
 gas - which he
 could get in Omaha.? Here in San Diego it's only
 available from
 specialized racing shops.? From Steve's comments on
 operation of my
 engine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I
 have
 occasionally put some Chevron Supreme in.? It's always
 mixed with
 whatever 100LL is already in the tank.? In my aux tank
 in the wing, made
 from vinyl ester, I've been religious about never putting
 anything but
 100LL in it.? I've heard too many stories about car gas
 wreaking havoc to
 tanks and fuel components for me to use it more than very
 occasionally. 
 Just my experience.? I'm still learning new things . .
 .hope we all are. 


 
 Nextiva vFAX
 Why Do You Still Have An Old Fax Machine?
 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc

 ___
 Search the KRnet Archives at
 http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
 To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
 please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
 see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
 to change options

KR> Ethanol

[Mark Wegmet]

One of the things to note about the ethanol/water issue. Water and ethanol are 
fully miscible; i.e., the blend is total and permanent under normal conditions. 
You can determine the "mix" by monitoring specific gravity and applying the 
appropriate formula to determine the "percentage" of water. There are other 
analytical methods available as well. While it is miscible, it is not 
hygroscopic in and of itself - water in alcohol is typically the result of 
condensation in the fuel cell and the aforementioned miscibility. 

JMHO.

Mark W.
N952MW (res)

>Tony King wrote.

>-Original Message-
>From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Tony King 
>via KRnet
>Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 10:29 PM
>To: KRnet
>Cc: Tony King
>Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol

>The two primary objections to ethanol seem to be corrosion/degradatiion of 
>fuel system components and its tendency to absorb water.  As you've pointed 
>out, the corrosion can be dealt with at >design stage quite readily - just 
>specify appropriate materials.

>The water issue doesn't seem so straightforward...


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

KR> Ethanol

[Paul Visk]

Ron,? ? ? ? I've heard some hardcore motorcycle dudes would do the same thing. ?
Paul Visk. ? Belleville IL. ? ?618 406 4705

Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4

 Original message 
From: Ronald Wright via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 06/06/2016  3:19 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: KRnet  
Cc: Ronald Wright  
Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol 

It is a simple matter to separate the ethanol out of the gas.? They recommend 
using Premium fuel due to a drop in octane when taking the ethanol out.? Get a 
clear tank, add ethanol fuel, dump in water and watch it separate out the 
ethanol/water solution.? Drain out the ethanol/water and you only have unleaded 
auto fuel left over.? If you want the specific amount of water to use per 
gallon, Google the question and you will easily find several methods for doing 
this.? Simple and easy to use.? Doesn't take very long to do it either..

Another solution was to add a long length of clear tubing to the gas can with a 
shut off valve at the bottom.? Dump in the water to the fuel, turn the can 
upside down and shake.? Watch the water/ethanol separate in the clean tubing; 
open the valve and let the ethanol/water drain out;? what you have left is pure 
gasoline.

Works great.? Your choice as to whether or not you want to try it.

Ron



On Mon, 6/6/16, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet  wrote:

 Subject: KR> Ethanol
 To: krnet at list.krnet.org
 Cc: laser147 at juno.com
 Date: Monday, June 6, 2016, 1:52 PM

 I had an old Cadillac with a computer
 display that would read out my
 real-time fuel consumption.? I imagine most cars have
 such things these
 days, althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved
 Cadillac with
 doesn't.? Whenever I would drive cross country and got
 into the mid-west
 where ethanol is sold, my fuel mileage would always go
 down.? 

 I'm impressed by the statement "The fastest cars in the
 country use it."
 so obviously I'm suffering form a misconception.? I
 inherently disliked
 it because it decreased my fuel mileage and because
 government welfare to
 all the farmers who grow corn for ethanol annoyes me
 too.? Plus, I've
 never trusted it in my KR.? If I do ever use auto fuel
 in the KR
 (GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I
 always use in my
 other vehicles.? Calling Chevron headquarters in San
 Francisco several
 years ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it.?
 It may be more
 now, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying
 top grade
 gasoline was not correct.? I think it's all got ethanol
 in it, except for
 boutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for
 racing.? Why would
 racing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the
 fastest cars in the
 country use it."? I'm not arguing here since I'm not
 very smart, but just
 relating my experiences.? 

 Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on ethanol-free
 gas - which he
 could get in Omaha.? Here in San Diego it's only
 available from
 specialized racing shops.? From Steve's comments on
 operation of my
 engine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I
 have
 occasionally put some Chevron Supreme in.? It's always
 mixed with
 whatever 100LL is already in the tank.? In my aux tank
 in the wing, made
 from vinyl ester, I've been religious about never putting
 anything but
 100LL in it.? I've heard too many stories about car gas
 wreaking havoc to
 tanks and fuel components for me to use it more than very
 occasionally. 
 Just my experience.? I'm still learning new things . .
 .hope we all are. 


 
 Nextiva vFAX
 Why Do You Still Have An Old Fax Machine?
 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc

 ___
 Search the KRnet Archives at
 http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
 To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
 please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
 see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
 to change options

___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
options

KR> Ethanol Continued

[Andrew Sugg]

Tony
- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet was donated or 
purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed and anodized the 
alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.

- The water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is moonshine, and 
readily absorbs water. Now, you will never get 100% ethanol outside of a 
labratory. Even your 200 proof moonshine is roughly 95% ethanol and 5% water. 
Part of our testing included static tank test, aka fuel sitting in the tank for 
extended periods of time without use or agitation. The highest water absorbtion 
we saw was 5% during a hot, rainy Texas summer. Since the ethanol distributes 
the water, you don't have to worry about water destroying your fuel tank or 
vapor locking the engine. Our tested used E85 (85% ethanol 15% denaturing 
chemicals). We then added water (at 5% incriments) into the fuel tank and ran 
the engine for 5 hours, mimicing all phases of flight. We did go up to 15% 
water before we started hitting peak EGT before backing off on the throttle. In 
short, your fuel tank isn't going to allow enough water vapor in the air to 
pass into the tank and be absorbed to the point of causing noticeable changes. 
If there is that much water, someone poured it into the tank.

Chris
- E85/E90 is what we considered 100% during our testing, because it was 100% 
ethanol fuel with no 100LL in the tanks. Fuel manufacturers are required by law 
to add denaturing chemicals to the ethanol fuel so you can't give your 
car/airplane a gallon and a gallon for yourself.

- In all my testing and the research that had been previously done, I couldn't 
find anything connecting vapor lock with ethanol use. I will state, we did have 
issues with start up in extremely cold temperatures (subzero Farenheit), which 
was countered with a fuel heater. So, probably not a great fuel for Alaskan 
winters.

- For corrosion, we did multiple test to include common aircraft metals and 
composite materials. Ethanol does a great job cleaning steel (our 5,000gal 
steel fuel cell had no corrosion when inspected at the 5 year mark. It even 
cleaned the rust off of a chain that was dropped into the tank.). It does eat 
alluminum, but anodizing protects the alluminum components. We slosh anodized 
our Cessna tanks and saw no problems. With the composites, we used E-glass and 
Aeropoxy resin, gel coat, and carbon fiber. We saw no reaction to any composite 
materials during the 5 year testing.

Bill
- Most auto "flex fuels" are tuned to run on 87 octane, which further drives 
people away. NASCAR and INDY do run ethanol due to it's benefits. It also makes 
fuel spill clean up a lot easier. E90 and E85 are becoming more popular, but if 
you are in an area that has either, you could use it. One of the reasons for 
our testing between different ethanol and 100LL testing was for availability 
reasons. Say someone is able to fly at their home airport on ethanol, but was 
not able to find it during a cross country. You wouldn't know the exact ratio. 
So we tested at 10% incriments betwen 100% ethanol fuel (E85) to 100% 100LL. 
There were no changes in performance, outside of what we expected due to fuel 
flow and horsepower changes that happen between the fuels.

KR> Ethanol

[codylee.cramer]

Ethanol free is also available anywhere you go here in florida. Be it a marina 
or just the local race track gas station.


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Pete Klapp via KRnet  Date: 6/6/16  3:32 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Ronald Wright 
, krnet at list.krnet.org Cc: Pete Klapp  Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol 

 Ron
Ethanol free fuel is also available at many marinas, at least here in Ohio.
Pete Klapp, building KR-2S N729PK,
Canton, Ohio

> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:19:39 +
> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> CC: ronwright5 at yahoo.com
> 
> It is a simple matter to separate the ethanol out of the gas.? They recommend 
> using Premium fuel due to a drop in octane when taking the ethanol out.? Get 
> a clear tank, add ethanol fuel, dump in water and watch it separate out the 
> ethanol/water solution.? Drain out the ethanol/water and you only have 
> unleaded auto fuel left over.? If you want the specific amount of water to 
> use per gallon, Google the question and you will easily find several methods 
> for doing this.? Simple and easy to use.? Doesn't take very long to do it 
> either..
> 
> Another solution was to add a long length of clear tubing to the gas can with 
> a shut off valve at the bottom.? Dump in the water to the fuel, turn the can 
> upside down and shake.? Watch the water/ethanol separate in the clean tubing; 
> open the valve and let the ethanol/water drain out;? what you have left is 
> pure gasoline.
> 
> Works great.? Your choice as to whether or not you want to try it.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> --------
> On Mon, 6/6/16, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>? Subject: KR> Ethanol
>? To: krnet at list.krnet.org
>? Cc: laser147 at juno.com
>? Date: Monday, June 6, 2016, 1:52 PM
>? 
>? I had an old Cadillac with a computer
>? display that would read out my
>? real-time fuel consumption.? I imagine most cars have
>? such things these
>? days, althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved
>? Cadillac with
>? doesn't.? Whenever I would drive cross country and got
>? into the mid-west
>? where ethanol is sold, my fuel mileage would always go
>? down.? 
>? 
>? I'm impressed by the statement "The fastest cars in the
>? country use it."
>? so obviously I'm suffering form a misconception.? I
>? inherently disliked
>? it because it decreased my fuel mileage and because
>? government welfare to
>? all the farmers who grow corn for ethanol annoyes me
>? too.? Plus, I've
>? never trusted it in my KR.? If I do ever use auto fuel
>? in the KR
>? (GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I
>? always use in my
>? other vehicles.? Calling Chevron headquarters in San
>? Francisco several
>? years ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it. 
>? It may be more
>? now, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying
>? top grade
>? gasoline was not correct.? I think it's all got ethanol
>? in it, except for
>? boutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for
>? racing.? Why would
>? racing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the
>? fastest cars in the
>? country use it."? I'm not arguing here since I'm not
>? very smart, but just
>? relating my experiences.? 
>? 
>? Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on ethanol-free
>? gas - which he
>? could get in Omaha.? Here in San Diego it's only
>? available from
>? specialized racing shops.? From Steve's comments on
>? operation of my
>? engine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I
>? have
>? occasionally put some Chevron Supreme in.? It's always
>? mixed with
>? whatever 100LL is already in the tank.? In my aux tank
>? in the wing, made
>? from vinyl ester, I've been religious about never putting
>? anything but
>? 100LL in it.? I've heard too many stories about car gas
>? wreaking havoc to
>? tanks and fuel components for me to use it more than very
>? occasionally. 
>? Just my experience.? I'm still learning new things . .
>? .hope we all are. 
>? 
>? 
>? 
>? Nextiva vFAX
>? Why Do You Still Have An Old Fax Machine?
>? http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc
>? 
>? ___
>? Search the KRnet Archives at
>? http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>? To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>? please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>? see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
>? to change options
>

KR> Ethanol

[Pete Klapp]

 Ron
Ethanol free fuel is also available at many marinas, at least here in Ohio.
Pete Klapp, building KR-2S N729PK,
Canton, Ohio

> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:19:39 +
> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> CC: ronwright5 at yahoo.com
> 
> It is a simple matter to separate the ethanol out of the gas.  They recommend 
> using Premium fuel due to a drop in octane when taking the ethanol out.  Get 
> a clear tank, add ethanol fuel, dump in water and watch it separate out the 
> ethanol/water solution.  Drain out the ethanol/water and you only have 
> unleaded auto fuel left over.  If you want the specific amount of water to 
> use per gallon, Google the question and you will easily find several methods 
> for doing this.  Simple and easy to use.  Doesn't take very long to do it 
> either..
> 
> Another solution was to add a long length of clear tubing to the gas can with 
> a shut off valve at the bottom.  Dump in the water to the fuel, turn the can 
> upside down and shake.  Watch the water/ethanol separate in the clean tubing; 
> open the valve and let the ethanol/water drain out;  what you have left is 
> pure gasoline.
> 
> Works great.  Your choice as to whether or not you want to try it.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> ------------
> On Mon, 6/6/16, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: KR> Ethanol
>  To: krnet at list.krnet.org
>  Cc: laser147 at juno.com
>  Date: Monday, June 6, 2016, 1:52 PM
>  
>  I had an old Cadillac with a computer
>  display that would read out my
>  real-time fuel consumption.  I imagine most cars have
>  such things these
>  days, althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved
>  Cadillac with
>  doesn't.  Whenever I would drive cross country and got
>  into the mid-west
>  where ethanol is sold, my fuel mileage would always go
>  down.  
>  
>  I'm impressed by the statement "The fastest cars in the
>  country use it."
>  so obviously I'm suffering form a misconception.  I
>  inherently disliked
>  it because it decreased my fuel mileage and because
>  government welfare to
>  all the farmers who grow corn for ethanol annoyes me
>  too.  Plus, I've
>  never trusted it in my KR.  If I do ever use auto fuel
>  in the KR
>  (GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I
>  always use in my
>  other vehicles.  Calling Chevron headquarters in San
>  Francisco several
>  years ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it. 
>  It may be more
>  now, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying
>  top grade
>  gasoline was not correct.  I think it's all got ethanol
>  in it, except for
>  boutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for
>  racing.  Why would
>  racing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the
>  fastest cars in the
>  country use it."  I'm not arguing here since I'm not
>  very smart, but just
>  relating my experiences.  
>  
>  Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on ethanol-free
>  gas - which he
>  could get in Omaha.  Here in San Diego it's only
>  available from
>  specialized racing shops.  From Steve's comments on
>  operation of my
>  engine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I
>  have
>  occasionally put some Chevron Supreme in.  It's always
>  mixed with
>  whatever 100LL is already in the tank.  In my aux tank
>  in the wing, made
>  from vinyl ester, I've been religious about never putting
>  anything but
>  100LL in it.  I've heard too many stories about car gas
>  wreaking havoc to
>  tanks and fuel components for me to use it more than very
>  occasionally. 
>  Just my experience.  I'm still learning new things . .
>  .hope we all are. 
>  
>  
>  
>  Nextiva vFAX
>  Why Do You Still Have An Old Fax Machine?
>  http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc
>  
>  ___
>  Search the KRnet Archives at
>  http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>  To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>  please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>  see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
>  to change options
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Ethanol

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

Keep in mind that the original post was regarding pure ethanol which is
a different animal than automotive gas with 10% ethanol that you get at
your local gas station.  The concerns with using ethanol containing gas
and the reasons the FAA does not allow its use in certified planes with
auto fuel STCs are still valid.


 Original Message 
Subject: KR> Ethanol
From: Mike Stirewalt via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Mon, June 06, 2016 11:52 am
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Cc: laser147 at juno.com

I had an old Cadillac with a computer display that would read out my
real-time fuel consumption. I imagine most cars have such things these
days, althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved Cadillac with
doesn't. Whenever I would drive cross country and got into the mid-west
where ethanol is sold, my fuel mileage would always go down. 

I'm impressed by the statement "The fastest cars in the country use it."
so obviously I'm suffering form a misconception. I inherently disliked
it because it decreased my fuel mileage and because government welfare
to
all the farmers who grow corn for ethanol annoyes me too. Plus, I've
never trusted it in my KR. If I do ever use auto fuel in the KR
(GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I always use in my
other vehicles. Calling Chevron headquarters in San Francisco several
years ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it. It may be more
now, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying top grade
gasoline was not correct. I think it's all got ethanol in it, except for
boutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for racing. Why would
racing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the fastest cars in
the
country use it." I'm not arguing here since I'm not very smart, but just
relating my experiences. 

Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on ethanol-free gas - which
he
could get in Omaha. Here in San Diego it's only available from
specialized racing shops. From Steve's comments on operation of my
engine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I have
occasionally put some Chevron Supreme in. It's always mixed with
whatever 100LL is already in the tank. In my aux tank in the wing, made
from vinyl ester, I've been religious about never putting anything but
100LL in it. I've heard too many stories about car gas wreaking havoc to
tanks and fuel components for me to use it more than very occasionally. 
Just my experience. I'm still learning new things . . .hope we all are. 



Nextiva vFAX
Why Do You Still Have An Old Fax Machine?
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc

___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to
change options

KR> Ethanol

[John Martindale]

No need for root beer on tap any more at KR flyin's over there!!

John Martindale
29 Jane Circuit
Toormina NSW 2452
Australia

ph:61 2 6658 4767
m:0403 432179
email:john_martindale at bigpond.com
web site: 
-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of andrew via 
KRnet
Sent: Monday, 6 June 2016 1:07 PM
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Cc: andrew
Subject: KR> Ethanol

Here goes the spoon feed ?Don?t use it?.

 As I?m working on blue prints for the KRSuper1, and getting my outside 
research done. I am settled on one huge taboo of the aviation community. This 
bad boy is going to be tuned and built to run primarily on 
ethanol..SNIP..

KR> Ethanol

[Tony King]

The two primary objections to ethanol seem to be corrosion/degradatiion of
fuel system components and its tendency to absorb water.  As you've pointed
out, the corrosion can be dealt with at design stage quite readily - just
specify appropriate materials.

The water issue doesn't seem so straightforward.  While an engine may run
fine on ethanol with a known quantity of water added, when an aircraft sits
idle for weeks at a time, how can you know how much water is in the fuel?
How much water can ethanol absorb?  How do you know how much it's
absorbed?  Is it evenly distributed (e.g. in solution with the ethanol) or
does it accumulate at the bottom of the tank.  Getting a known and
consistent amount seems like a challenge to me.

An then there's the question of where to get 100% ethanol.  Is it as
readily available to the average joe as 100LL or unleaded?

I look forward to hearing of your progress from time to time.

Cheers,

Tony

On 6 June 2016 at 13:06, andrew via KRnet  wrote:

> Here goes the spoon feed ?Don?t use it?.
>
>  As I?m working on blue prints for the KRSuper1, and getting my outside
> research done. I am settled on one huge taboo of the aviation community.
> This bad boy is going to be tuned and built to run primarily on ethanol.
>
> ?But Cessna and the big aviation companies says it?s horrible.? Hold on
> and let me get some hand on acknowledge your way.
>
> Dr. Maxwell Schauck has been flying on ethanol since the 1980?s, and flew
> across the Atlantic in his Velocity back in 1989. While I was attending his
> program at Baylor University I got to participate in his research for 4
> years. In that four years I came to find out a few things.
>
> 1. Ethanol is a superior fuel to 100LL.
> 2. Oil companies will do everything to keep it out of mainstream use
> 3. Ethanol has a natural octane of 113
> 4. Ethanol burns cooler, and will run smooth at 50 degrees past peak EGT
> 5. If you add water, you get a horsepower boost, AND you don?t have to
> worry about it damaging your engine
> 6. Ethanol reduces engine vibrations by 50%.
> 7. Ethanol doesn?t react with oil in the same manor as 100ll or mogas
> 8. Ethanol will eat aluminum and natural rubber. Easily combated by
> anodizing and using Teflon
> 9. If an engine is tuned to ethanol vs. 100LL, you get a significant
> horsepower boost with minimal GPH increase.
>
> This is all based on my personal experience working on our departments
> Pitts S2B, Cessna 152, Cessna 172, Velocity, Piper Aztec, and Max
> Performance Research aircraft prototype. We averaged a horsepower increase
> of roughly 30-35% increase with ethanol vs. avgas, with no changes to the
> mechanical tuning on the engine. To the point we had to order custom props
> for all our aircraft, due to engine overspeed with the standard propellers.
> (The Pitts S2B ran 300HP on 100LL and 350HP on ethanol).
>
> We also did water in fuel testing for the FAA while getting our Cessna?s
> STCs updated (yes, Dr. Schauck owns the STCs for 152s and 172s to be flown
> on 100% ethanol in utility category). We were able to add 10% water to the
> fuel tanks before reaching peak EGTs. Had we tuned the engine this
> percentage would have gone up.
>
> So why am I sharing; I plan on building the first KR that is designed to
> fly on ethanol. And foreseeing the usual arguments I figured I would head
> off most prior to having to repeat.
>
> So a Corvair with 100HP should obtain 130HP simply by tuning to run on the
> 113 Octane ethanol. But we shall see when we get to that part of my build.
>
> What are your thoughts on the matter?
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
>

KR> Ethanol

[bjoenunley]

*What about high altitude flying in the winter *time??
I have gone to 100LL in the winter because of accational carb icing. ?Would the 
moisture absorbed by ethanol fuel contribute to carb icing?
Joe Nunley?CW2 US Army RetiredBaker JROTC Instructor?Baker Florida?

KR> Ethanol

[Randall Smith]

What about high altitude flying in the winter time? Sense ethanol will hold 
moisture how do you prevent freezing? Sounds like you all have done a lot of 
research just ask. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:27 AM, billjacobs386 at yahoo.com via KRnet  list.krnet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>Probably the same reason most auto oriented stay away. Availability. I 
> agree with everything you said. Fuel consumption increases slightly to 
> compensate for power density. Some of the fastest cars on the planet run it 
> and i would set up for it too. If i could RELIABLY find it.My 2C
> Bill Jacobs
> 
> 
> -- Original message--From: andrew via KRnet Date: Sun, Jun 5, 2016 
> 11:06 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: andrew;Subject:KR> EthanolHere goes 
> the spoon feed ?Don?t use it?. As I?m working on blue prints for the 
> KRSuper1, and getting my outside research done. I am settled on one huge 
> taboo of the aviation community. This bad boy is going to be tuned and built 
> to run primarily on ethanol.?But Cessna and the big aviation companies says 
> it?s horrible.? Hold on and let me get some hand on acknowledge your way.Dr. 
> Maxwell Schauck has been flying on ethanol since the 1980?s, and flew across 
> the Atlantic in his Velocity back in 1989. While I was attending his program 
> at Baylor University I got to participate in his research for 4 years. In 
> that four years I came to find out a few things.1. Ethanol is a superior fuel 
> to 100LL.2. Oil companies will do everything to keep it out of mainstream 
> use3. Ethanol has a natural octane of 1134. Ethanol burns cooler, and will 
> run smooth at 50 degrees past peak EGT5. If you add water, you get a 
> horsepower boost, AND you don?t have to worry about it damaging your engine6. 
> Ethanol reduces engine vibrations by 50%.7. Ethanol doesn?t react with oil in 
> the same manor as 100ll or mogas8. Ethanol will eat aluminum and natural 
> rubber. Easily combated by anodizing and using Teflon9. If an engine is tuned 
> to ethanol vs. 100LL, you get a significant horsepower boost with minimal GPH 
> increase.This is all based on my personal experience working on our 
> departments Pitts S2B, Cessna 152, Cessna 172, Velocity, Piper Aztec, and Max 
> Performance Research aircraft prototype. We averaged a horsepower increase of 
> roughly 30-35% increase with ethanol vs. avgas, with no changes to the 
> mechanical tuning on the engine. To the point we had to order custom props 
> for all our aircraft, due to engine overspeed with the standard propellers. 
> (The Pitts S2B ran 300HP on 100LL and 350HP on ethanol).We also did water in 
> fuel testing for the FAA while getting our Cessna?s STCs updated (yes, Dr. 
> Schauck owns the STCs for 152s and 172s to be flown on 100% ethanol in 
> utility category). We were able to add 10% water to the fuel tanks before 
> reaching peak EGTs. Had we tuned the engine this percentage would have gone 
> up.So why am I sharing; I plan on building the first KR that is designed to 
> fly on ethanol. And foreseeing the usual arguments I figured I would head off 
> most prior to having to repeat. So a Corvair with 100HP should obtain 130HP 
> simply by tuning to run on the 113 Octane ethanol. But we shall see when we 
> get to that part of my build.What are your thoughts on the matter?Sent from 
> Mail for Windows 10___Search the 
> KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe 
> from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other 
> KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee 
> http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Ethanol

[laser147 at juno.com]

I had an old Cadillac with a computer display that would read out my
real-time fuel consumption.  I imagine most cars have such things these
days, althoiugh the Oldsmobile that I replaced my beloved Cadillac with
doesn't.  Whenever I would drive cross country and got into the mid-west
where ethanol is sold, my fuel mileage would always go down.  

I'm impressed by the statement "The fastest cars in the country use it."
so obviously I'm suffering form a misconception.  I inherently disliked
it because it decreased my fuel mileage and because government welfare to
all the farmers who grow corn for ethanol annoyes me too.  Plus, I've
never trusted it in my KR.  If I do ever use auto fuel in the KR
(GP-2180) I always use Chevron Supreme, which is what I always use in my
other vehicles.  Calling Chevron headquarters in San Francisco several
years ago, they told me Supreme has 7% ethanol in it.  It may be more
now, or less, but thinking I could avoid ethanol by buying top grade
gasoline was not correct.  I think it's all got ethanol in it, except for
boutique racing shops that sell ethanol-free gas for racing.  Why would
racing shops sell ethanol-free gas for racing if "the fastest cars in the
country use it."  I'm not arguing here since I'm not very smart, but just
relating my experiences.  

Steve Bennett said he always ran my engine on ethanol-free gas - which he
could get in Omaha.  Here in San Diego it's only available from
specialized racing shops.  From Steve's comments on operation of my
engine, I've tried to keep ethanol out of the tanks but I have
occasionally put some Chevron Supreme in.  It's always mixed with
whatever 100LL is already in the tank.  In my aux tank in the wing, made
from vinyl ester, I've been religious about never putting anything but
100LL in it.  I've heard too many stories about car gas wreaking havoc to
tanks and fuel components for me to use it more than very occasionally. 
Just my experience.  I'm still learning new things . . .hope we all are. 



Nextiva vFAX
Why Do You Still Have An Old Fax Machine?
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5755c69e982ad469e6d0cst04vuc

KR> Ethanol

[billjacobs...@yahoo.com]

Probably the same reason most auto oriented stay away. Availability. I 
agree with everything you said. Fuel consumption increases slightly to 
compensate for power density. Some of the fastest cars on the planet run it and 
i would set up for it too. If i could RELIABLY find it.My 2C
Bill Jacobs


-- Original message--From: andrew via KRnet Date: Sun, Jun 5, 2016 
11:06 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: andrew;Subject:KR> EthanolHere goes the 
spoon feed ?Don?t use it?. As I?m working on blue prints for the KRSuper1, and 
getting my outside research done. I am settled on one huge taboo of the 
aviation community. This bad boy is going to be tuned and built to run 
primarily on ethanol.?But Cessna and the big aviation companies says it?s 
horrible.? Hold on and let me get some hand on acknowledge your way.Dr. Maxwell 
Schauck has been flying on ethanol since the 1980?s, and flew across the 
Atlantic in his Velocity back in 1989. While I was attending his program at 
Baylor University I got to participate in his research for 4 years. In that 
four years I came to find out a few things.1. Ethanol is a superior fuel to 
100LL.2. Oil companies will do everything to keep it out of mainstream use3. 
Ethanol has a natural octane of 1134. Ethanol burns cooler, and will run smooth 
at 50 degrees past peak EGT5. If you add water, you get a horsepower boost, AND 
you don?t have to worry about it damaging your engine6. Ethanol reduces engine 
vibrations by 50%.7. Ethanol doesn?t react with oil in the same manor as 100ll 
or mogas8. Ethanol will eat aluminum and natural rubber. Easily combated by 
anodizing and using Teflon9. If an engine is tuned to ethanol vs. 100LL, you 
get a significant horsepower boost with minimal GPH increase.This is all based 
on my personal experience working on our departments Pitts S2B, Cessna 152, 
Cessna 172, Velocity, Piper Aztec, and Max Performance Research aircraft 
prototype. We averaged a horsepower increase of roughly 30-35% increase with 
ethanol vs. avgas, with no changes to the mechanical tuning on the engine. To 
the point we had to order custom props for all our aircraft, due to engine 
overspeed with the standard propellers. (The Pitts S2B ran 300HP on 100LL and 
350HP on ethanol).We also did water in fuel testing for the FAA while getting 
our Cessna?s STCs updated (yes, Dr. Schauck owns the STCs for 152s and 172s to 
be flown on 100% ethanol in utility category). We were able to add 10% water to 
the fuel tanks before reaching peak EGTs. Had we tuned the engine this 
percentage would have gone up.So why am I sharing; I plan on building the first 
KR that is designed to fly on ethanol. And foreseeing the usual arguments I 
figured I would head off most prior to having to repeat. So a Corvair with 
100HP should obtain 130HP simply by tuning to run on the 113 Octane ethanol. 
But we shall see when we get to that part of my build.What are your thoughts on 
the matter?Sent from Mail for Windows 
10___Search the KRnet Archives at 
http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a 
message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other KRnet info at 
http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee 
http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options

KR> Ethanol

[Chris Prata]

my FIRST thought upon reading that (besides how interesting it is) is what does 
this mean for E90 from the local Shell station because, economically, thats the 
cheapest to run.  I then think of "vapor lock" which seems to be the primary 
concern, followed by water absorption and corrosion. 
I am not talking about the primary topic of course which is E100... because 
thats hard to get

I always thought to run 100ll in one tank for takeoff and approach/landing, and 
E90 in the working tank which would be drained into my car after flight.



> What are your thoughts on the matter? 

KR> Ethanol

[andrew]

Here goes the spoon feed ?Don?t use it?.

 As I?m working on blue prints for the KRSuper1, and getting my outside 
research done. I am settled on one huge taboo of the aviation community. This 
bad boy is going to be tuned and built to run primarily on ethanol.

?But Cessna and the big aviation companies says it?s horrible.? Hold on and let 
me get some hand on acknowledge your way.

Dr. Maxwell Schauck has been flying on ethanol since the 1980?s, and flew 
across the Atlantic in his Velocity back in 1989. While I was attending his 
program at Baylor University I got to participate in his research for 4 years. 
In that four years I came to find out a few things.

1. Ethanol is a superior fuel to 100LL.
2. Oil companies will do everything to keep it out of mainstream use
3. Ethanol has a natural octane of 113
4. Ethanol burns cooler, and will run smooth at 50 degrees past peak EGT
5. If you add water, you get a horsepower boost, AND you don?t have to worry 
about it damaging your engine
6. Ethanol reduces engine vibrations by 50%.
7. Ethanol doesn?t react with oil in the same manor as 100ll or mogas
8. Ethanol will eat aluminum and natural rubber. Easily combated by anodizing 
and using Teflon
9. If an engine is tuned to ethanol vs. 100LL, you get a significant horsepower 
boost with minimal GPH increase.

This is all based on my personal experience working on our departments Pitts 
S2B, Cessna 152, Cessna 172, Velocity, Piper Aztec, and Max Performance 
Research aircraft prototype. We averaged a horsepower increase of roughly 
30-35% increase with ethanol vs. avgas, with no changes to the mechanical 
tuning on the engine. To the point we had to order custom props for all our 
aircraft, due to engine overspeed with the standard propellers. (The Pitts S2B 
ran 300HP on 100LL and 350HP on ethanol).

We also did water in fuel testing for the FAA while getting our Cessna?s STCs 
updated (yes, Dr. Schauck owns the STCs for 152s and 172s to be flown on 100% 
ethanol in utility category). We were able to add 10% water to the fuel tanks 
before reaching peak EGTs. Had we tuned the engine this percentage would have 
gone up.

So why am I sharing; I plan on building the first KR that is designed to fly on 
ethanol. And foreseeing the usual arguments I figured I would head off most 
prior to having to repeat. 

So a Corvair with 100HP should obtain 130HP simply by tuning to run on the 113 
Octane ethanol. But we shall see when we get to that part of my build.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

KR> Ethanol

[Steve G.]

Build your own design and call it something else. 

Steve Glover

Sent from my electronic leash. 

> On Jun 5, 2016, at 20:06, andrew via KRnet  wrote:
> 
> Here goes the spoon feed ?Don?t use it?.
> 
> As I?m working on blue prints for the KRSuper1, and getting my outside 
> research done. I am settled on one huge taboo of the aviation community. This 
> bad boy is going to be tuned and built to run primarily on ethanol.
> 
> ?But Cessna and the big aviation companies says it?s horrible.? Hold on and 
> let me get some hand on acknowledge your way.
> 
> Dr. Maxwell Schauck has been flying on ethanol since the 1980?s, and flew 
> across the Atlantic in his Velocity back in 1989. While I was attending his 
> program at Baylor University I got to participate in his research for 4 
> years. In that four years I came to find out a few things.
> 
> 1. Ethanol is a superior fuel to 100LL.
> 2. Oil companies will do everything to keep it out of mainstream use
> 3. Ethanol has a natural octane of 113
> 4. Ethanol burns cooler, and will run smooth at 50 degrees past peak EGT
> 5. If you add water, you get a horsepower boost, AND you don?t have to worry 
> about it damaging your engine
> 6. Ethanol reduces engine vibrations by 50%.
> 7. Ethanol doesn?t react with oil in the same manor as 100ll or mogas
> 8. Ethanol will eat aluminum and natural rubber. Easily combated by anodizing 
> and using Teflon
> 9. If an engine is tuned to ethanol vs. 100LL, you get a significant 
> horsepower boost with minimal GPH increase.
> 
> This is all based on my personal experience working on our departments Pitts 
> S2B, Cessna 152, Cessna 172, Velocity, Piper Aztec, and Max Performance 
> Research aircraft prototype. We averaged a horsepower increase of roughly 
> 30-35% increase with ethanol vs. avgas, with no changes to the mechanical 
> tuning on the engine. To the point we had to order custom props for all our 
> aircraft, due to engine overspeed with the standard propellers. (The Pitts 
> S2B ran 300HP on 100LL and 350HP on ethanol).
> 
> We also did water in fuel testing for the FAA while getting our Cessna?s STCs 
> updated (yes, Dr. Schauck owns the STCs for 152s and 172s to be flown on 100% 
> ethanol in utility category). We were able to add 10% water to the fuel tanks 
> before reaching peak EGTs. Had we tuned the engine this percentage would have 
> gone up.
> 
> So why am I sharing; I plan on building the first KR that is designed to fly 
> on ethanol. And foreseeing the usual arguments I figured I would head off 
> most prior to having to repeat. 
> 
> So a Corvair with 100HP should obtain 130HP simply by tuning to run on the 
> 113 Octane ethanol. But we shall see when we get to that part of my build.
> 
> What are your thoughts on the matter?
> 
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Peter Drake]

We now have 90UL Avgas which is cleared for use on most engines like 
Lycomings in the UK.
It is 20% cheaper than 100LL and our fuel costs are way higher than in the 
US.
I have been running it in by PA28 140 for about a year with no ill effects.

Peter Drake
UK





"It will be a great day when 100NL (no lead) is available and the lead
problem with valves and plugs, is also removed from the equation."

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Dan Heath]

There are many stories just like this one.  What is that old saying, "pay me
now, or  pay me later"?  Well, flying is expensive.  It took me a long time
to come to the conclusion that if I wanted to fly, I was going to have to
pay at one end or the other.  So, I choose to have the convenience of
filling up at the airport with 100LL and take that problem out of the
equation.  

It will be a great day when 100NL (no lead) is available and the lead
problem with valves and plugs, is also removed from the equation.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics?
See you Oct. 4 and 5, 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Daniel R. Heath -?Lexington, SC



-Original Message-
I replaced the fiberglass wing tanks in my KR-2 with welded aluminum tanks. 
Ethanol in the mogas, that I was trying to use, was dissolving the Vinyl
Ester resin rather quickly.  Rubber components in the carb were being
hardened and would not seal.  (Lots of fun and excitement when the carb
overflows while the engine is running.)  Now using 100LL exclusively.  The
fuel system is good to go now.  The tank change out and carb rebuild cost
about $1500 and six months down time.

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[smwood]

I replaced the fiberglass wing tanks in my KR-2 with welded aluminum tanks. 
Ethanol in the mogas, that I was trying to use, was dissolving the Vinyl 
Ester resin rather quickly.  Rubber components in the carb were being 
hardened and would not seal.  (Lots of fun and excitement when the carb 
overflows while the engine is running.)  Now using 100LL exclusively.  The 
fuel system is good to go now.  The tank change out and carb rebuild cost 
about $1500 and six months down time.

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

- Original Message - 
> Pure gasoline should be good with glass & plastic tanks...
>
> Ethanol degrades certain rubber-ish compounds & the interior of some
> varieties of fuel-lines... The 'mush-ifying' of fuel-tanks has been a
> problem for fiberglass boats, too...
>
> So even without glass tanks... 'Keep the booze in your glass & out of
> your gas'...
>
> Fortunately, my airfield has pure gasoline on-field
>
> On 8/3/2013 8:37 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
>> This last winter the cost of 100LL finally hit my pain threshhold when I 
>> realized I had burned $7000 in 100LL during 2012.  With a $2 per gallon 
>> difference, burning Mogas will make a significant impact over the course 
>> of a year.  In February I dragged my old 100 gallon tank out of storage, 
>> serviced the electric pump, replaced the filters and hoses, then put it 
>> back to use hauling mogas.  The only alcohol free Mogas in our area is 90 
>> octane AKI and is 35 miles away.
>>
>> I have been running a mixture of 80% 90 AKI Mogas and 20% 100LL in both 
>> planes.  The O-200 in the KR and the O-320 in the SuperCub are both 8.5:1 
>> compression engines.  My KR has sloshed Saf-T-Poxy tanks and the Super 
>> Cub has glass tanks that were made with an unknown resin before I bought 
>> the project.  Neither seem to be any worse for having used Alcohol free 
>> Mogas.
>>
>> I have seen disastrous results from using alcohol contaminated fuel in 
>> glass tanks.  One was thousands of $$ damage to the fuel system of a 
>> Cherokee 235 and the other totaled the plane (a Grumman Cheetah), so be 
>> sure to test your fuel.
>>
>> Jeff Scott
>> -Los Alamos, NM
>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>
>>> NetHeads,
>>>
>>> For those who'd rather burn ethanol-free fuel, there's a website that 
>>> lists most known vendors in the US and Canada at 
>>> http://www.pure-gas.org/ .
>>> Mark Langford
>>> ML at N56ML.com
>>> website at http://www.N56ML.com
>>> 

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Dave_A]

Pure gasoline should be good with glass & plastic tanks...

Ethanol degrades certain rubber-ish compounds & the interior of some 
varieties of fuel-lines... The 'mush-ifying' of fuel-tanks has been a 
problem for fiberglass boats, too...

So even without glass tanks... 'Keep the booze in your glass & out of 
your gas'...

Fortunately, my airfield has pure gasoline on-field

On 8/3/2013 8:37 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> This last winter the cost of 100LL finally hit my pain threshhold when I 
> realized I had burned $7000 in 100LL during 2012.  With a $2 per gallon 
> difference, burning Mogas will make a significant impact over the course of a 
> year.  In February I dragged my old 100 gallon tank out of storage, serviced 
> the electric pump, replaced the filters and hoses, then put it back to use 
> hauling mogas.  The only alcohol free Mogas in our area is 90 octane AKI and 
> is 35 miles away.
>
> I have been running a mixture of 80% 90 AKI Mogas and 20% 100LL in both 
> planes.  The O-200 in the KR and the O-320 in the SuperCub are both 8.5:1 
> compression engines.  My KR has sloshed Saf-T-Poxy tanks and the Super Cub 
> has glass tanks that were made with an unknown resin before I bought the 
> project.  Neither seem to be any worse for having used Alcohol free Mogas.
>
> I have seen disastrous results from using alcohol contaminated fuel in glass 
> tanks.  One was thousands of $$ damage to the fuel system of a Cherokee 235 
> and the other totaled the plane (a Grumman Cheetah), so be sure to test your 
> fuel.
>
> Jeff Scott
> -Los Alamos, NM
>
>> - Original Message -
>>
>> NetHeads,
>>
>> For those who'd rather burn ethanol-free fuel, there's a website that lists 
>> most known vendors in the US and Canada at http://www.pure-gas.org/ .
>> Mark Langford
>> ML at N56ML.com
>> website at http://www.N56ML.com
>> 
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Jeff Scott]

I didn't see the Cheetah. ?I bought the engine off it and overhauled it for my 
Super Cub project. ?The carb inlet was completely packed full of fiberglass 
residue, which was why it fell out of the sky and ended on it's back in a 
field. ?There was something glass in the fuel system that ended up packed in 
the carb inlet. 

The Cherokee 235 had the tip tanks softened to the point where they were 
deforming from the air pressures in flight. ?

-Jeff Scott

> - Original Message -
> From: Dj Merrill
> Sent: 08/03/13 09:45 PM
> To: KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> ethanol-free fuel link
> 
> On Aug 3, 2013, at 11:37 PM, "Jeff Scott"  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I have seen disastrous results from using alcohol contaminated fuel in 
> > glass tanks. One was thousands of $$ damage to the fuel system of a 
> > Cherokee 235 and the other totaled the plane (a Grumman Cheetah), so be 
> > sure to test your fuel.
> > 
> > 
> 
> A Grumman Cheetah with glass tanks???
> 
> -Dj

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Dj Merrill]

On Aug 3, 2013, at 11:37 PM, "Jeff Scott"  wrote:

> 
> I have seen disastrous results from using alcohol contaminated fuel in glass 
> tanks.  One was thousands of $$ damage to the fuel system of a Cherokee 235 
> and the other totaled the plane (a Grumman Cheetah), so be sure to test your 
> fuel.
> 
> 

A Grumman Cheetah with glass tanks???

-Dj

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Jeff Scott]

This last winter the cost of 100LL finally hit my pain threshhold when I 
realized I had burned $7000 in 100LL during 2012. ?With a $2 per gallon 
difference, burning Mogas will make a significant impact over the course of a 
year. ?In February I dragged my old 100 gallon tank out of storage, serviced 
the electric pump, replaced the filters and hoses, then put it back to use 
hauling mogas. ?The only alcohol free Mogas in our area is 90 octane AKI and is 
35 miles away. ?

I have been running a mixture of 80% 90 AKI Mogas and 20% 100LL in both planes. 
?The O-200 in the KR and the O-320 in the SuperCub are both 8.5:1 compression 
engines. ?My KR has sloshed Saf-T-Poxy tanks and the Super Cub has glass tanks 
that were made with an unknown resin before I bought the project. ?Neither seem 
to be any worse for having used Alcohol free Mogas.

I have seen disastrous results from using alcohol contaminated fuel in glass 
tanks. ?One was thousands of $$ damage to the fuel system of a Cherokee 235 and 
the other totaled the plane (a Grumman Cheetah), so be sure to test your fuel.

Jeff Scott
-Los Alamos, NM

> - Original Message -
> 
> NetHeads,
> 
> For those who'd rather burn ethanol-free fuel, there's a website that lists 
> most known vendors in the US and Canada at http://www.pure-gas.org/ . 
> Mark Langford
> ML at N56ML.com
> website at http://www.N56ML.com 
> 

KR> ethanol-free fuel link

[Mark Langford]

NetHeads,

For those who'd rather burn ethanol-free fuel, there's a website that lists 
most known vendors in the US and Canada at http://www.pure-gas.org/ .  They 
also have free iPhone and Android apps that will guide you to a nearby station, 
along with pertinent info such as octane ratings.  It is regularly updated by 
folks like you and me through the web page.  I think this has been posted 
before, so this may be just a reminder.  I bought some today for the lawnmowers 
and the generator, and two more stations popped up near the airport and near 
where I work.

Be advised that auto fuel is more prone to vapor lock, especially under hot 
conditions, but ethanol-laced auto fuel is even worse.  Ethanol (and even auto 
fuel, depending on what's in it) is famous for dissolving composite fuel tanks 
and various "rubber" parts in fuel systems, but I've run a lot of it through my 
vinylester tank and Ellison carb with no detrimental effects.  Car fuel burns 
cleaner in my Corvair powered plane than 100LL, which deposits lead in the 
combustion chambers and on the valves.  I prefer it over 100LL, but only use 93 
octane due to the compression of my engine. 

I have a small piece of N891JF's vinylester tank soaking in ethanol-free auto 
fuel now, but will continue to run 100LL in it until I'm convinced it won't be 
an issue.  I'm still nowhere near flying, but am hoping to fly it to the 
Gathering...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com 

KR> ethanol

[Larry Knox]

Thanks, Joe I hope everyone in aviation and the boating industry signs it.
la...@lebanair.com 

-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+larry=lebanair@mylist.net
[mailto:krnet-bounces+larry=lebanair@mylist.net] On Behalf Of
joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 7:20 AM
To: corvaircr...@mylist.net; kr...@mylist.net
Subject: KR> ethanol

 Hey Guys,I don't usually foreword stuff  but this petition looks real
enough to me concerning the future introduction of ethanol into the fuel
supplies. I signed it and gave reason .Joe Horton
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/keep-pure-gas/ 

Mortgage Rates Hit 2.67%!
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ce14fede3e7d2061abst04duc
___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> ethanol

[joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com]

 Hey Guys,I don't usually foreword stuff  but this petition looks real enough 
to me concerning the future introduction of ethanol into the fuel supplies. I 
signed it and gave reason .Joe Horton 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/keep-pure-gas/ 

Mortgage Rates Hit 2.67%!
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ce14fede3e7d2061abst04duc

KR> ethanol and the Ellison

[Larry Knox]

Thanks Tim, this should tell everyone to "never" for any reason put any
level of Ethanol in your airplane, or anything else if you can help it.
la...@lebanair.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Tim
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:01 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> ethanol and the Ellison


Precautions>>>>
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> ethanol and the Ellison

[Larry Knox]

KRneter's, corrosion is a serious problem with Ethanol as is destruction of
rubber and Fiberglass components. This is real guys but the real serious
problem with Ethanol is water. Ethanol gulps up water at a hi rate and it
phase separates at altitude and temp. You don't get to choose where. A big
gulp of water turning on base or final will ruin your day. Don't do it guys
it isn't worth it. Some help fighting the Ethanol reg's would help. I can
tell you some horror stories about boats that loaded with ethanol and
rebuilt the engine and the boat. Also small engines that had the cylinders
and pistons corroded to seizure from ethanol in one season. They won't run
ethanol down the transport pipelines because it ruins there pump systems and
pipelines. Does it tell you something.
With a look at 92 clear it has thousands of gallons and hrs running
in GA aircraft and gives them a far better life span than 100LL. We sell
more 92 clear here than avgas. We are next door to a race track and sell
some of both to the racers. We used to sell mostly Avgas but we now sell
mostly MoGas. One guy told me he had them all beat as he had figured out the
ratio of MoGas to Avgas that let him beat them all, of course this was
confidential info. We are the only airport in Oregon (A mandatory ethanol
state) with 92 Clear MoGas. What a mess we have let our country become.
la...@lebanair.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Lee Parker
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:40 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> ethanol and the Ellison

I have a friend who has had several race cars.  He said they tested the
100LL against 93 octane auto gas and the auto gas came out with more horse
power on the  dynometer.  He also said the auto fuel ran smoother and had
less problems with the valves after the engines were broken in.  Embry
Riddle University did a test several years ago on Mogas and determined that
if you used auto fuel you could cut your maintainence cost signifiantly. 
You can check the archives if you want to read about it.  I tried Mogas in
my mooney and found that it also ran smoother.  The only problem was PRC
fuel tank sealer won't hold up to auto gas.  I have friends with
experimentals that have their fuel tanks sealed with Epoxy Novalac that run
the ethanol and so far have not had any problems.  I think most of the
problems with auto fuel is the risk of vapor lock and fuel tank sealers.  
--- On Mon, 11/30/09, Tim <t...@telus.net> wrote:


From: Tim <t...@telus.net>
Subject: Re: KR> ethanol and the Ellison
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 8:01 AM



Precautions>>>>
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html




___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> ethanol and the Ellison

[Lee Parker]

I have a friend who has had several race cars.  He said they tested the 100LL 
against 93 octane auto gas and the auto gas came out with more horse power on 
the  dynometer.  He also said the auto fuel ran smoother and had less problems 
with the valves after the engines were broken in.  Embry Riddle University did 
a test several years ago on Mogas and determined that if you used auto fuel you 
could cut your maintainence cost signifiantly.  You can check the archives if 
you want to read about it.  I tried Mogas in my mooney and found that it also 
ran smoother.  The only problem was PRC fuel tank sealer won't hold up to auto 
gas.  I have friends with experimentals that have their fuel tanks sealed with 
Epoxy Novalac that run the ethanol and so far have not had any problems.  I 
think most of the problems with auto fuel is the risk of vapor lock and fuel 
tank sealers.  
--- On Mon, 11/30/09, Tim <t...@telus.net> wrote:


From: Tim <t...@telus.net>
Subject: Re: KR> ethanol and the Ellison
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 8:01 AM



Precautions>>>>
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> ethanol and the Ellison

[Tim]

Precautions
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

KR> ethanol and the Ellison

[Tim]

 When ethanol was first introduced in the 1980s, some cars experienced 
deterioration of some elastomers (rubber-like parts) and metal fuel system 
components. Very quickly, manufacturers upgraded their fuel systems so that 
today, they are now all compatible with ethanol fuels..Yeah, but I don't 
run a Car engine  ;-)

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: KR> ethanol and the Ellison


Mike Stirewalt wrote:

> ethanol.  And who knows what it might be doing to diaphragms & other
> fittings inside the Ellison?

I know a guy who's had an Ellison diaphragm in a jar of E85 (85% ethanol)
for several years and it still looks like a new one.  But as Larry would
say, "your mileage may vary"!  I also took my Ellison apart after  a
thousand gallons of autofuel had been run through it and it also still
looked new.  I put it back in to continue the experiement.  I've now run
about 3000 gallons of autofuel through it, and best I can tell, it's still
fine.

Having said that, I run auto fuel almost exclusively, but am lucky that the
nearest gas station to my house and hangar can't sell ethanol-laced fuel
because it's incompatible with their tanks, which tells you something. I've
only knowingly put ethanol in it once, and that's when I was stuck out in
the boonies of Iowa with no aviation fuel available, and all auto fuel there
is apparently required to have ethanol in it.  I ran it through the exhaust
system before the day was over though.

I've never notcied a power difference with 100LL, but it sounds like a test
is in order!  I HAVE noticed that I can lean the engine a little further
before the engine gets rougher though...

Mark Langford
n5...@hiwaay.net
website www.n56ml.com


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> ethanol and the Ellison

[Mark Langford]

Mike Stirewalt wrote:

> ethanol.  And who knows what it might be doing to diaphragms & other
> fittings inside the Ellison?

I know a guy who's had an Ellison diaphragm in a jar of E85 (85% ethanol) 
for several years and it still looks like a new one.  But as Larry would 
say, "your mileage may vary"!  I also took my Ellison apart after  a 
thousand gallons of autofuel had been run through it and it also still 
looked new.  I put it back in to continue the experiement.  I've now run 
about 3000 gallons of autofuel through it, and best I can tell, it's still 
fine.

Having said that, I run auto fuel almost exclusively, but am lucky that the 
nearest gas station to my house and hangar can't sell ethanol-laced fuel 
because it's incompatible with their tanks, which tells you something. I've 
only knowingly put ethanol in it once, and that's when I was stuck out in 
the boonies of Iowa with no aviation fuel available, and all auto fuel there 
is apparently required to have ethanol in it.  I ran it through the exhaust 
system before the day was over though.

I've never notcied a power difference with 100LL, but it sounds like a test 
is in order!  I HAVE noticed that I can lean the engine a little further 
before the engine gets rougher though...

Mark Langford
n5...@hiwaay.net
website www.n56ml.com

KR> ethanol

[Harold Woods]

Hi Netters.
re Issue 186 on 25 Apr 06.
Lets face it, there is going to be a shortage of gasoline in the future. We 
in the airplane group are a tiny drop in the pot. No one is going to make 
special fuel for us. Go with the flow and that is ethanol. Adapt now. No 
aluminum fuel lines. Ethanol attacks them. Redo your carb to ensure all 
rubber parts are ethanol safe. Ensure that your gas tank will hold ethanol, 
pure if necessary.  Expect to burn a greater volume of fuel to do the same 
thing. I am not going to start a war about how efficient gasoline is 
compared to pure ethanol. Get the numbers straight from a knowledgeable 
source.I do not have them. Size your gas tank to suit.  Those of you in the 
USA are fortunate, if you want to produce your own ethanol fuel then apply 
for a licence for a few dollars.  Go to the archives in "Mother Earth News" 
and find the article on a modern high efficiency still that you can make. 
The plans are very reasonable cost. If you can grow your own carbohydrate 
vegetable. Process it into ethanol. The "still" will give you about 80% 
ethanol and 20 % water.
That is an excellent mixture for a gas engine. The water will give you a 
high octane rating, it reduces the burn rate thus more power ( the water 
becomes steam and that pushes uniformly on the piston). There was a man (no 
names given), living not too far away that grew sugar beets, which he made 
into ethanol. He quoted the cost as 25 cents a gallon (Imperial ), no labour 
or taxes involved.  He ran his station wagon on this fuel. He had a sign in 
the back window to the effect that this vehicle ran on alcohol. In Canada, 
this is VERY illegal. After a few years the RCMPolice arrived and shut him 
down.  They said that they had been watching him, he was not abusing the 
alcohol by selling or drinking it so nothing was done until some idiot in 
bureaucratic Ottawa decided that he should not do this. This man solved the 
problem by running for parliament in his area. He won. Government has a 
problem. A member of parliament is charged with making alcohol. Solve the 
problem, give him a permit to do so. (normally this would cost upwards of 
$35,000.00 for a permit.) .  The moral of this story is "adapt" Stop 
bitching, do something constructive so that you can safely burn anywhere 
from 10% to 100% ethanol, or any other fuel that shows up (natural gas, 
propane, butane etc.)  If you want to fly you must adapt. I am sending this 
on a Friday, If it is too late send it next week on a Friday.
Regards
Harold Woods
Orillia, ON. Canada.
haroldwo...@rogers.com 

KR> ethanol

[D F Lively]

Harold:

I have no idea what the FAA's reasoning is but when they issue an STC to permit
the use of Autogas in an aircraft engine they stipulate that such fuel must NOT
contain alcohol.  I do know that older auto engines, ones built before alcohol
blending began, were equiped with many ancillary parts and materials that would
not tolerate alcohol in fuels.  I have been told that the volitility of alcohol
can pose some problems with vapor locking at altitude but I am unsure obout that
problem.  I also wonder about water settling out somewhere in the system and
freezing in a fuel line although I am aware that alcohol can make water miscible
in gasololine I would never use alcohol containing fuel in aircraft until this
was resolved.

I noted last week-end in Mexico that Larry Flesner has his fuel tank fill points
placarded "No Alcohol", perhaps he might weigh in on this subject.  Atany rate
the 10 cents to 20 cents a gallon is not worth the risk!

Don Lively
Burlington IA 52601
  



Harold Woods wrote:

> Hi Netters.
> re Issue 186 on 25 Apr 06.
> Lets face it, there is going to be a shortage of gasoline in the future. We
> in the airplane group are a tiny drop in the pot. No one is going to make
> special fuel for us. Go with the flow and that is ethanol. Adapt now. No
> aluminum fuel lines. Ethanol attacks them. Redo your carb to ensure all
> rubber parts are ethanol safe. Ensure that your gas tank will hold ethanol,
> pure if necessary.  Expect to burn a greater volume of fuel to do the same
> thing. I am not going to start a war about how efficient gasoline is
> compared to pure ethanol. Get the numbers straight from a knowledgeable
> source.I do not have them. Size your gas tank to suit.  Those of you in the
> USA are fortunate, if you want to produce your own ethanol fuel then apply
> for a licence for a few dollars.  Go to the archives in "Mother Earth News"
> and find the article on a modern high efficiency still that you can make.
> The plans are very reasonable cost. If you can grow your own carbohydrate
> vegetable. Process it into ethanol. The "still" will give you about 80%
> ethanol and 20 % water.
> That is an excellent mixture for a gas engine. The water will give you a
> high octane rating, it reduces the burn rate thus more power ( the water
> becomes steam and that pushes uniformly on the piston). There was a man (no
> names given), living not too far away that grew sugar beets, which he made
> into ethanol. He quoted the cost as 25 cents a gallon (Imperial ), no labour
> or taxes involved.  He ran his station wagon on this fuel. He had a sign in
> the back window to the effect that this vehicle ran on alcohol. In Canada,
> this is VERY illegal. After a few years the RCMPolice arrived and shut him
> down.  They said that they had been watching him, he was not abusing the
> alcohol by selling or drinking it so nothing was done until some idiot in
> bureaucratic Ottawa decided that he should not do this. This man solved the
> problem by running for parliament in his area. He won. Government has a
> problem. A member of parliament is charged with making alcohol. Solve the
> problem, give him a permit to do so. (normally this would cost upwards of
> $35,000.00 for a permit.) .  The moral of this story is "adapt" Stop
> bitching, do something constructive so that you can safely burn anywhere
> from 10% to 100% ethanol, or any other fuel that shows up (natural gas,
> propane, butane etc.)  If you want to fly you must adapt. I am sending this
> on a Friday, If it is too late send it next week on a Friday.
> Regards
> Harold Woods
> Orillia, ON. Canada.
> haroldwo...@rogers.com
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[Beverly & Colin Rainey]

It is my understanding that this why alcohol and straight pump gas has never
been endorsed by the FAA: alcohol absorbs water. Water in fuel creates a
nightmare of problems from freezing at altitude to low power, etc…  That is
why MOGAS at airports has the same rating in octane but is refined
differently.

Personally, everything I read leads me to draw the conclusion that the
engine of the future in GA aviation will be run on JET A, kerosene.  They
already have several diesels that run successfully on it, and it is just a
matter of time before they eclipse the gas engine with popularity. The
slower burning and power making diesel also work wells with props.  A light
weight version would be perfect for the KR2, Zenair, Vision crowds.

But what do I know. I am just a southern mechanic from Georgia…

Colin Rainey
N96TA

KR> Ethanol

[3343V]

Beverly & Colin Rainey wrote:
>
> Personally, everything I read leads me to draw the conclusion that the
> engine of the future in GA aviation will be run on JET A, kerosene.
> They already have several diesels that run successfully on it, and it
> is just a matter of time before they eclipse the gas engine with
> popularity. The slower burning and power making diesel also work
> wells with props.  A light weight version would be perfect for the
> KR2, Zenair, Vision crowds.

If there was a suitable diesel out there it would be going into my KR1. Mags 
can't crap out if they aren't installed on the engine.
-- 
Steve
33...@swbell.net
N3343V- '75 C150M
N205FT- KR1 #6170
He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in. 

KR> Ethanol

[D F Lively]

Netters:

Gleaned from new accounts it has came to my attention that the military uses a
grade of diesel fuel that fuels everything from HumVees to aircrft.  Of course
they do it for logistical reasons.  This fact came to my attention in a news
report where in the background I observed a "Chopper" land near a fuel tanker
and the driver finished fueling a "Hum Vee" and then went over and proceeded to
fuel the chopper from the same hose.

Don
  

Beverly & Colin Rainey wrote:

> It is my understanding that this why alcohol and straight pump gas has never
> been endorsed by the FAA: alcohol absorbs water. Water in fuel creates a
> nightmare of problems from freezing at altitude to low power, etc…  That is
> why MOGAS at airports has the same rating in octane but is refined
> differently.
>
> Personally, everything I read leads me to draw the conclusion that the
> engine of the future in GA aviation will be run on JET A, kerosene.  They
> already have several diesels that run successfully on it, and it is just a
> matter of time before they eclipse the gas engine with popularity. The
> slower burning and power making diesel also work wells with props.  A light
> weight version would be perfect for the KR2, Zenair, Vision crowds.
>
> But what do I know. I am just a southern mechanic from Georgia…
>
> Colin Rainey
> N96TA
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

Réf. : KR> ethanol

[Serge VIDAL]

Guys, play with Ethanol if you wish. As for me, my next aircraft will be a 
Diesel, so that I can fly on Jet A-1, and tour the world if I fancy, with 
huge endurance, no no unreliable carb, magnetos or plugs, and without ever 
risking to run out of Agas because the local airfield does not have it 
anymore!

That's my plan, and I will stick to it, even if it takes me another 15 
years to build the darn thing!

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France






"Harold Woods" <haroldwo...@rogers.com>

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
27/05/2006 05:16
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 27/05/2006 05:17


Pour :  <kr...@mylist.net>
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : KR> ethanol



Hi Netters.
re Issue 186 on 25 Apr 06.
Lets face it, there is going to be a shortage of gasoline in the future. 
We 
in the airplane group are a tiny drop in the pot. No one is going to make 
special fuel for us. Go with the flow and that is ethanol. Adapt now. No 
aluminum fuel lines. Ethanol attacks them. Redo your carb to ensure all 
rubber parts are ethanol safe. Ensure that your gas tank will hold 
ethanol, 
pure if necessary.  Expect to burn a greater volume of fuel to do the same 

thing. I am not going to start a war about how efficient gasoline is 
compared to pure ethanol. Get the numbers straight from a knowledgeable 
source.I do not have them. Size your gas tank to suit.  Those of you in 
the 
USA are fortunate, if you want to produce your own ethanol fuel then apply 

for a licence for a few dollars.  Go to the archives in "Mother Earth 
News" 
and find the article on a modern high efficiency still that you can make. 
The plans are very reasonable cost. If you can grow your own carbohydrate 
vegetable. Process it into ethanol. The "still" will give you about 80% 
ethanol and 20 % water.
That is an excellent mixture for a gas engine. The water will give you a 
high octane rating, it reduces the burn rate thus more power ( the water 
becomes steam and that pushes uniformly on the piston). There was a man 
(no 
names given), living not too far away that grew sugar beets, which he made 

into ethanol. He quoted the cost as 25 cents a gallon (Imperial ), no 
labour 
or taxes involved.  He ran his station wagon on this fuel. He had a sign 
in 
the back window to the effect that this vehicle ran on alcohol. In Canada, 

this is VERY illegal. After a few years the RCMPolice arrived and shut him 

down.  They said that they had been watching him, he was not abusing the 
alcohol by selling or drinking it so nothing was done until some idiot in 
bureaucratic Ottawa decided that he should not do this. This man solved 
the 
problem by running for parliament in his area. He won. Government has a 
problem. A member of parliament is charged with making alcohol. Solve the 
problem, give him a permit to do so. (normally this would cost upwards of 
$35,000.00 for a permit.) .  The moral of this story is "adapt" Stop 
bitching, do something constructive so that you can safely burn anywhere 
from 10% to 100% ethanol, or any other fuel that shows up (natural gas, 
propane, butane etc.)  If you want to fly you must adapt. I am sending 
this 
on a Friday, If it is too late send it next week on a Friday.
Regards
Harold Woods
Orillia, ON. Canada.
haroldwo...@rogers.com 


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

Réf. : KR> ethanol

[D F Lively]

KR-netters:

Has anyone explored using the old or newer VW diesels as conversions or is the
weight to big a problem?  You must use the better grades of diesel or "Jet A"
because of the "Jelling" problem common for #2 Diesel in cold weather, add to
that altitude.

Don
  

Serge VIDAL wrote:

> Guys, play with Ethanol if you wish. As for me, my next aircraft will be a
> Diesel, so that I can fly on Jet A-1, and tour the world if I fancy, with
> huge endurance, no no unreliable carb, magnetos or plugs, and without ever
> risking to run out of Agas because the local airfield does not have it
> anymore!
>
> That's my plan, and I will stick to it, even if it takes me another 15
> years to build the darn thing!
>
> Serge Vidal
> KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
> Paris, France
>
>
>
> "Harold Woods" <haroldwo...@rogers.com>
>
> Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> 27/05/2006 05:16
> Veuillez répondre à KRnet
> Remis le : 27/05/2006 05:17
>
>
> Pour :  <kr...@mylist.net>
> cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
> Objet : KR> ethanol
>
> Hi Netters.
> re Issue 186 on 25 Apr 06.
> Lets face it, there is going to be a shortage of gasoline in the future.
> We
> in the airplane group are a tiny drop in the pot. No one is going to make
> special fuel for us. Go with the flow and that is ethanol. Adapt now. No
> aluminum fuel lines. Ethanol attacks them. Redo your carb to ensure all
> rubber parts are ethanol safe. Ensure that your gas tank will hold
> ethanol,
> pure if necessary.  Expect to burn a greater volume of fuel to do the same
>
> thing. I am not going to start a war about how efficient gasoline is
> compared to pure ethanol. Get the numbers straight from a knowledgeable
> source.I do not have them. Size your gas tank to suit.  Those of you in
> the
> USA are fortunate, if you want to produce your own ethanol fuel then apply
>
> for a licence for a few dollars.  Go to the archives in "Mother Earth
> News"
> and find the article on a modern high efficiency still that you can make.
> The plans are very reasonable cost. If you can grow your own carbohydrate
> vegetable. Process it into ethanol. The "still" will give you about 80%
> ethanol and 20 % water.
> That is an excellent mixture for a gas engine. The water will give you a
> high octane rating, it reduces the burn rate thus more power ( the water
> becomes steam and that pushes uniformly on the piston). There was a man
> (no
> names given), living not too far away that grew sugar beets, which he made
>
> into ethanol. He quoted the cost as 25 cents a gallon (Imperial ), no
> labour
> or taxes involved.  He ran his station wagon on this fuel. He had a sign
> in
> the back window to the effect that this vehicle ran on alcohol. In Canada,
>
> this is VERY illegal. After a few years the RCMPolice arrived and shut him
>
> down.  They said that they had been watching him, he was not abusing the
> alcohol by selling or drinking it so nothing was done until some idiot in
> bureaucratic Ottawa decided that he should not do this. This man solved
> the
> problem by running for parliament in his area. He won. Government has a
> problem. A member of parliament is charged with making alcohol. Solve the
> problem, give him a permit to do so. (normally this would cost upwards of
> $35,000.00 for a permit.) .  The moral of this story is "adapt" Stop
> bitching, do something constructive so that you can safely burn anywhere
> from 10% to 100% ethanol, or any other fuel that shows up (natural gas,
> propane, butane etc.)  If you want to fly you must adapt. I am sending
> this
> on a Friday, If it is too late send it next week on a Friday.
> Regards
> Harold Woods
> Orillia, ON. Canada.
> haroldwo...@rogers.com
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

Réf. : Re: Réf. : KR> ethanol

[Serge VIDAL]

As far as I know, the current "popular" Diesels are:

1°) - Certified engines:
- SMA (This is a new design, conventional flat four)
- Thielert (These are conversions of the automotive Mercedes Diesel 
engines).

2) Experimental:
- The Isuzu series , 1.4 liter and 1.9 liter Turbo Diesel
- The Citroen Visa 1.4 liter Diesel.

But rest assured more will follow.

Go visit the DAC aircraft Website, at www.dac-ranger.nl to see what a nice 
Diesel aircraft looks like!

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France





D F Lively <riksh...@interl.net>

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
28/05/2006 14:43
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 28/05/2006 14:44


Pour :  KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
    Objet : Re: Réf. : KR> ethanol



KR-netters:

Has anyone explored using the old or newer VW diesels as conversions or is 
the
weight to big a problem?  You must use the better grades of diesel or "Jet 
A"
because of the "Jelling" problem common for #2 Diesel in cold weather, add 
to
that altitude.

Don
  

Serge VIDAL wrote:

> Guys, play with Ethanol if you wish. As for me, my next aircraft will be 
a
> Diesel, so that I can fly on Jet A-1, and tour the world if I fancy, 
with
> huge endurance, no no unreliable carb, magnetos or plugs, and without 
ever
> risking to run out of Agas because the local airfield does not have it
> anymore!
>
> That's my plan, and I will stick to it, even if it takes me another 15
> years to build the darn thing!
>
> Serge Vidal
> KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
> Paris, France
>
>
>
> "Harold Woods" <haroldwo...@rogers.com>
>
> Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> 27/05/2006 05:16
> Veuillez répondre à KRnet
> Remis le : 27/05/2006 05:17
>
>
> Pour :  <kr...@mylist.net>
> cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
> Objet : KR> ethanol
>
> Hi Netters.
> re Issue 186 on 25 Apr 06.
> Lets face it, there is going to be a shortage of gasoline in the future.
> We
> in the airplane group are a tiny drop in the pot. No one is going to 
make
> special fuel for us. Go with the flow and that is ethanol. Adapt now. No
> aluminum fuel lines. Ethanol attacks them. Redo your carb to ensure all
> rubber parts are ethanol safe. Ensure that your gas tank will hold
> ethanol,
> pure if necessary.  Expect to burn a greater volume of fuel to do the 
same
>
> thing. I am not going to start a war about how efficient gasoline is
> compared to pure ethanol. Get the numbers straight from a knowledgeable
> source.I do not have them. Size your gas tank to suit.  Those of you in
> the
> USA are fortunate, if you want to produce your own ethanol fuel then 
apply
>
> for a licence for a few dollars.  Go to the archives in "Mother Earth
> News"
> and find the article on a modern high efficiency still that you can 
make.
> The plans are very reasonable cost. If you can grow your own 
carbohydrate
> vegetable. Process it into ethanol. The "still" will give you about 80%
> ethanol and 20 % water.
> That is an excellent mixture for a gas engine. The water will give you a
> high octane rating, it reduces the burn rate thus more power ( the water
> becomes steam and that pushes uniformly on the piston). There was a man
> (no
> names given), living not too far away that grew sugar beets, which he 
made
>
> into ethanol. He quoted the cost as 25 cents a gallon (Imperial ), no
> labour
> or taxes involved.  He ran his station wagon on this fuel. He had a sign
> in
> the back window to the effect that this vehicle ran on alcohol. In 
Canada,
>
> this is VERY illegal. After a few years the RCMPolice arrived and shut 
him
>
> down.  They said that they had been watching him, he was not abusing the
> alcohol by selling or drinking it so nothing was done until some idiot 
in
> bureaucratic Ottawa decided that he should not do this. This man solved
> the
> problem by running for parliament in his area. He won. Government has a
> problem. A member of parliament is charged with making alcohol. Solve 
the
> problem, give him a permit to do so. (normally this would cost upwards 
of
> $35,000.00 for a permit.) .  The moral of this story is "adapt" Stop
> bitching, do something constructive so that you can safely burn anywhere
> from 10% to 100% ethanol, or any other fuel that shows up (natural gas,
> propane, butane etc.)  If you want to fly you must adapt. I am sending
> this
> on a Friday, If it is too late send it next week on a Friday.
> Regards
> Harold Woods
> Orillia, ON. Canada.
> haroldwo...@rogers.com
>
> ___

KR> Ethanol

[D F Lively]

Mark:

I picked that up when I was looking into what was involved in getting an STC 
for a certified aircraft which
specified "No Alcohol" permited at any time so I made some inquirey as to why 
and that is what I was told so
perhaps I may have read something in that was unintended but why take a chance

Don
  

Mark Jones wrote:

> >-Original Message-
> >From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
> >Behalf Of D F Lively
> >Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:00 PM
> >To: KRnet
> >Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol
>
> >  FAA says that ethynol blends are a NO-NO.
>
> I have been flying 93 octane ethynol blens with absolutely no 
> problemsmaybe I have just been lucky so far.
>
> Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> Wales, WI
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[Pat Driscoll]

I was watching a film on TV a couple of days ago that showed a Mooney flying on 
pure ethynol. I then read an article in the Saint Paul paper that said that it 
cost $2.74 per gallon to make ethynol.
Pat Driscoll
Saint Paul, MN 
patric...@usfamily.net
http://www.freewebs.com/patrick1936/
LIFE MAY NOT BE THE PARTY WE HOPED FOR
BUT WHILE WE ARE HERE WE MIGHT AS WELL DANCE!"






--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

KR> Ethanol

[D F Lively]

Pat:

I wonder what mods were made to the engine/carburator/injection system to 
permit that because in the STC's it is clearly stated no alcohol.

Don
  

Pat Driscoll wrote:

> I was watching a film on TV a couple of days ago that showed a Mooney flying 
> on pure ethynol. I then read an article in the Saint Paul paper that said 
> that it cost $2.74 per gallon to make ethynol.
> Pat Driscoll
> Saint Paul, MN
> patric...@usfamily.net
> http://www.freewebs.com/patrick1936/
> LIFE MAY NOT BE THE PARTY WE HOPED FOR
> BUT WHILE WE ARE HERE WE MIGHT AS WELL DANCE!"
>
>
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[Ron Freiberger]

It takes twice as much ethanol than gasoline to do the same task, and
when they blend 10% ethanol, you're losing 5% in value.

Ethanol is a big joke, ranking just behind hydrogen as a good idea.
Think about how they make hydrogen.  In our imperfect government,
they'll probably use ethanol to fuel that reaction.

The best fuel for long distance flying is diesel.  For a short distance,
the take-off weight is higher.

Ron and Martha Freiberger
mail to ronandmar...@earthlink.net
 


-Original Message-
Pat Driscol said,

I was watching a film on TV a couple of days ago that showed a Mooney
flying on pure ethynol. I then read an article in the Saint 
 Paul paper that said that it cost $2.74 per gallon to make ethynol.  

Réf. : RE: KR> Ethanol

[Serge VIDAL]

Hey, by the way, a couple weeks ago, I was lucky enough to fly as a 
passenger in a Diesel-powered Cessna 182. That was at the FIDAe Air Show, 
in Chile. The plane is a factory demonstrator, and actually belongs to 
SMA, which is a Safran Group company. As you all know by now, I am a 
Diesel power enthusiast,. But I happen to be a Safran employee too, so it 
was relativelisy easy to negotiate a ride.

The plane had just crossed the Andes between Argentina and Chile behind 
its 230 hp six cylinder flat Turbo Diesel, without a glitch. I was invited 
fo a flight around Santiago, and during the flight, I was impressed with 
the very neat FADEC (which has a manual backup in case of failure), and 
the very low noise and vibration levels as compared to the petrol engine 
it replaces. Conversation is possible on board withou a headset. There was 
a fuel flow meter, and the readings were also quite impressive. The fuel 
consumption is, roughly, less 40% in volume as compared to petrol. And of 
course, this is JET A1 fuel, so the fuel cost difference becomes even 
more.

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France





"Ron Freiberger" <ronandmar...@earthlink.net>

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
24/04/2006 18:06
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 24/04/2006 18:06


Pour :  "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : RE: KR> Ethanol



It takes twice as much ethanol than gasoline to do the same task, and
when they blend 10% ethanol, you're losing 5% in value.

Ethanol is a big joke, ranking just behind hydrogen as a good idea.
Think about how they make hydrogen.  In our imperfect government,
they'll probably use ethanol to fuel that reaction.

The best fuel for long distance flying is diesel.  For a short distance,
the take-off weight is higher.

Ron and Martha Freiberger
mail to ronandmar...@earthlink.net
 


-Original Message-
Pat Driscol said,

I was watching a film on TV a couple of days ago that showed a Mooney
flying on pure ethynol. I then read an article in the Saint 
 Paul paper that said that it cost $2.74 per gallon to make ethynol. 



___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[D F Lively]

Ron:

You have it about right on fuel economy and unfortunately there are to few
diesel a/c engines available as they are a challenge for weight reasons.  A
diesel would be great as you can run #6 fuel oil or "Jet A" in one.  That is
what the military has done for logistics reasons as all their aircraft and
ground vehicles run the same fuel!

Don
  

Ron Freiberger wrote:

> It takes twice as much ethanol than gasoline to do the same task, and
> when they blend 10% ethanol, you're losing 5% in value.
>
> Ethanol is a big joke, ranking just behind hydrogen as a good idea.
> Think about how they make hydrogen.  In our imperfect government,
> they'll probably use ethanol to fuel that reaction.
>
> The best fuel for long distance flying is diesel.  For a short distance,
> the take-off weight is higher.
>
> Ron and Martha Freiberger
> mail to ronandmar...@earthlink.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Pat Driscol said,
>
> I was watching a film on TV a couple of days ago that showed a Mooney
> flying on pure ethynol. I then read an article in the Saint
>  Paul paper that said that it cost $2.74 per gallon to make ethynol.
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[Pat Driscoll]

Don wrote:I wonder what mods were made to the engine/carburator/injection 
system 



According to the announcer, only drilling out a couple of ports in the carb 
were needed
Pat Driscoll
Saint Paul, MN 
patric...@usfamily.net
http://www.freewebs.com/patrick1936/
LIFE MAY NOT BE THE PARTY WE HOPED FOR
BUT WHILE WE ARE HERE WE MIGHT AS WELL DANCE!"






--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

KR> Ethanol

[D F Lively]

Pat:

I can see that but that alone will not adjust for the higher volitility that 
causes vapor locking and
alcohol is very hygroscopic which can also cause problems,  Some seal materials 
are also adversely
affected so that would need to be checked out and addressed.

Don
  

Pat Driscoll wrote:

> Don wrote:I wonder what mods were made to the engine/carburator/injection 
> system
>
> According to the announcer, only drilling out a couple of ports in the carb 
> were needed
> Pat Driscoll
> Saint Paul, MN
> patric...@usfamily.net
> http://www.freewebs.com/patrick1936/
> LIFE MAY NOT BE THE PARTY WE HOPED FOR
> BUT WHILE WE ARE HERE WE MIGHT AS WELL DANCE!"
>
>
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[flymaca711...@aol.com]

Hi all is this going to be a problem running in are aircraft? and if so  what 
can we do .

most guys at the airport don't seem to really know . im not going back to  
avgas it just devastates the valve seats in vw engines .









mac n1055a still flying the vw 
powered Kr

KR> Ethanol

[Scott William]

--- flymaca711...@aol.com wrote:


> im not going back to  
> avgas it just devastates the valve seats in vw
> engines .


Anybody know WHY it trashes the valve seats in VW
engines?

Scott

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

KR> Ethanol

[James R Freeman]

Low lead.

- Original Message - 
From: "Scott William" <scot...@yahoo.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol


> 
> 
> --- flymaca711...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
>> im not going back to  
>> avgas it just devastates the valve seats in vw
>> engines .
> 
> 
> Anybody know WHY it trashes the valve seats in VW
> engines?
> 
> Scott
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[Scott William]

Auto gas has NO lead. 

Anybody else? 


Scott
--- James R Freeman <jrfree...@highland.net> wrote:

> Low lead.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Scott William" <scot...@yahoo.com>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:52 PM
> Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol
> 
>> > Anybody know WHY it trashes the valve seats in VW
> > engines?
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
>

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

KR> Ethanol

[D F Lively]

That is correct but we may soon have a problem buying gas without ethynol
and that is bad because of the potential forvapor-lock at altitude when
used.   FAA says that ethynol blends are a NO-NO.

Don
  




Scott William wrote:

> Auto gas has NO lead.
>
> Anybody else?
>
> Scott
> --- James R Freeman <jrfree...@highland.net> wrote:
>
> > Low lead.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Scott William" <scot...@yahoo.com>
> > To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol
> >
> >> > Anybody know WHY it trashes the valve seats in VW
> > > engines?
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> >
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Ethanol

[James R Freeman]

Scott:
Yes You are correct the E.P.A. law states no lead in auto fuel as of 
1986. The main octane booster are MTBE, ETBE and Ethanol. You can all-so get 
a small bottle of valve seat seat protector for older engines.
In My area we can still get leaded 97 octane (i.e. Boat gas) for boats, 
farm, or other off road use.

- Original Message - 
From: "Scott William" <scot...@yahoo.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol


>
> Auto gas has NO lead.
>
> Anybody else?
>
>
> Scott
> --- James R Freeman <jrfree...@highland.net> wrote:
>
>> Low lead.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Scott William" <scot...@yahoo.com>
>> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol
>>
>>> > Anybody know WHY it trashes the valve seats in VW
>> > engines?
>> >
>> > Scott
>> >
>>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> Ethanol

[Scott William]

This is a good point. Based on my experience with it,
it vapor-locks at sea level so I wouldn't want to fly
with it. 

Scott

--- D F Lively  wrote:

potential
> forvapor-lock at altitude when
> used.   

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

KR> Ethanol

[Mark Jones]

>-Original Message-
>From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
>Behalf Of D F Lively
>Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:00 PM
>To: KRnet
>Subject: Re: KR> Ethanol


>  FAA says that ethynol blends are a NO-NO.

I have been flying 93 octane ethynol blens with absolutely no problemsmaybe 
I have just been lucky so far.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI 

KR> Ethanol Gasoline Issue

[Brant Hollensbe]

The use of ethanol blend gasoline has many more ramifications that just O 
rings and carb parts.
The ethanol gasoline has a lower vapor pressure that straight gasoline which 
may give you trouble at higher altitudes above 8,000'
It absorbs water and holds it suspended in your fuel.  Carb icing becomes 
more frequent in conditions that normaly would not form carb ice if straight 
gas was used.
Ethanol is a wonderful solvent which attacks (shorter life spans) of many 
rubber items(O-rings, Fuel lines) that it comes into contact with. It can 
also dissolve foriegn matter in your tanks and that crude can plug fuel 
filters.
Ethanol gas has a short shelf life.  With Extented storage(3-4 weeks) of 
ethanol gas in your tanks it will start to form acids, varnish, or the 
ethanol will start to seperate from the gasoline so you will have pockets of 
almost pure ethanol in your tank . Because of this acid and varnish 
formation, many chain saw, lawn mower, and garden tractor engine manufactors 
do not recommend using it in their engines.
Ethanol has fewer BTUs per gallon that gasoline, expect a 3-5% increase in 
fuel comsuption at the same horsepower settings.

Overall, I can not recommend the use of ethanol blended Gasoline in aviation 
engines even though the state I live in, Iowa, is the largest producer of 
ethanol (23 plants) in the nation.

Brant Hollensbe
Des Moines Ia
bhollensbe at mchsi.com

KR> Ethanol

[JIM VANCE]

In their great wisdom and ignorance of the consequences, the Kansas state 
legislature has passed a law that PROHIBITS the filling stations from 
indicating if the gasoline contains alcohol, except for the E85 designation 
(the farm lobby is strong here).  Consequently, you can believe that they are 
dispensing whatever in the cheapest.

I bought some 91 octane car gas to flush out my tank and system, and to check 
for leaks.  I left it in the plane about three weeks, then drained it.  I 
checked the gascolator to see if any residue had come from the new tank.  When 
I opened it, the rubber gasket at the top sprang out about half an inch bigger 
in diameter than the groove.  I dried it as much as I could, and let it lay on 
the workbench.  After about ten days, it had shrunk back to where it would fit 
properly.

I put 100LL in the tank, and after six months, the gascolator gasket has 
remained the same size.

So much for gasohol in a system designed for airplanes.

Jim Vance, Claflin, Kansas
va...@hbcomm.net

KR> Ethanol

[Barry Kruyssen]

The problem is that they are probaly cheaper and the aviation industry
couldn't have that :-) 

-Original Message-
They obviously make alcohol resistant rubbers that are used in automotive
systems and how much more could they possibly cost?

Brian Kraut
-End Original Message-


Barry Kruyssen
Cairns, Australia
k...@bigpond.com
http://www.users.bigpond.com/kr2/kr2.htm