Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
2) Click Create = choose /dev/dasda = choose Do not format = enter all blanks for Mount point (I see now that the last entry in the dropdown menu is blanks - aha - the hidden key :)). This is what I've always done. If you want to give a partition to LVM, you have to create it first. That is good that you've always done it correctly. I guess I'm not such a great SLES installer :(( I notice that the SP2 release notes address this issue, but perhaps the process to create logical volumes via the installer is not as intuitive as possible? The current Virtualization Cookbook on linuxvm.org/present recommends that the dasdfmt button be used to create an empty partition for use by LVM later. That seemed to work quickly on SLES 10 vanilla, suggesting that it is really doing an fdasd -a. Now on SLES 10 SP2 that button does seem to take longer, so I assume it is really doing a dasdfmt as the button suggests. The disks probably do not need to be dasdfmt'd twice, so if you want to create logical volumes, the correct answer seems to be to use the Edit Partition window and then select Do not format and an emtpy mount point. I see that now. But perhaps to make the installer more intuitive the following could be implemented: after the Create button is clicked, the user be presented with a choice of disks, but rather than just OK and Cancel, the choices are Empty partition, Mounted partition and Cancel. Then the resulting window from Empty Partition would not require the user to select Do not format and and empty mount point, but would just require that partition size - the only parameter that is pertinent. I know getting developers to recognize usability issues is difficult, so this is just a suggestion. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
/ is also intended to contain other stuff, the binaries you need to get things working well enough to find everything else, the libraries they require, the kernel modules. Which for an enterprise deployment on a platform that has limited choices in hardware should change infrequently and be pretty much the same on every machine. You definitely don't need/want user data in / (definitely NOT /tmp) and the configuration information in /etc is read by things that are later in the process than the things you list (ie can be handled after you substitute a machine-specific /etc for the default /etc. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
I was speaking to its merit overall, without regard to whether to make it separate or not. I find it to be among the more sophomoric additions to the LSB in general and the FHS in particular. While it's a bit heavy-handed to write it into the spec, it is a grand attempt to put Mother's First Law (thou shalt not mix your stuff with vendor stuff) into the general consciousness. If it becomes customary, we can get people to keep code and data separate (I find the usual /var or /home practice for www server data really annoying because the usage patterns of www data are much different than classic home directories or spool data, which makes a number of decisions on filesystem options difficult). And in the case of the webmaster, I recommend electroshock therapy. To paraphrase John Belushi: Users. I hate users. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
David Boyes wrote: While it's a bit heavy-handed to write it into the spec, it is a grand attempt to put Mother's First Law (thou shalt not mix your stuff with vendor stuff) into the general consciousness. If it becomes customary, we can get people to keep code and data separate (I find the usual /var or /home practice for www server data really annoying because the usage patterns of www data are much different than classic home directories or spool data, which makes a number of decisions on filesystem options difficult). On intellish hardware, I've been putting my privates into */local for some years. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Mark Post wrote: For all you folks out there that keep wanting to put / in an LV, all I can say is masochists. I keep /boot in the root file system, and break out everything else. Mark, I have always agreed with your point of view, but even I am considering using / in an LV to be able to use LVM2 snapshots. Of course if SLES had UnionFS or AUFS, that would work well enough for most files, but LVM2 snapshots are very nice ;-) (What I am looking for is the ability to fall back to a point in time for one or more files or a complete filesystem, without involving complicated time-consuming backup/restore of tons of data.) mark -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Mark, It's always worked fine for me. I just went through a new SP1 install on my test What steps did you take? I found if you leave space on /dev/dasda, then click LVM, that the free space on /dev/dasda would not be available for use in a volume group. system, just to make sure nothing had changed with SP1. I am using a SLES 10 SP2 beta - but I will assume that should not be any different. A colleague suggested a way to get this accomplished. I have two 3338 cyl minidisks that become /dev/dasda and /dev/dasdb. From the Expert Partitioner window: 1) Click Create = choose /dev/dasda = choose Format, ext3 = choose your size and Mount point (/ for example) 2) Click Create = choose /dev/dasda = choose Do not format = enter all blanks for Mount point (I see now that the last entry in the dropdown menu is blanks - aha - the hidden key :)). Then when you click the LVM button /dev/dasda2 and /dev/dasdb are available. Note the inconsistentcy - I did not have to create a /dev/dasdb1 for /dev/dasdb to be available to LVM, but I did have to do this extra step for /dev/dasda. I would suggest for the installer to be more usable, that any volume with free space be available for use by LVM. Or there should be an entry on the Create a primary partition window to suggest for use with LVM. FWIW. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
I guess I'm missing something here. If you split out all the subsidiary filesystems, what ever changes in / other than the atime of the mount points for the other filesystems? You don't WANT stuff in /, and restoring / is a few seconds work if all the real work is in the subsidiary filesystems. LVM snapshots are pretty cool, but is it worth the pain when (not if) it breaks? Seems like you get the best of both worlds with Mark's suggested layout. But, your call. -Original Message- From: Mark Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Sent: 4/9/08 5:05 AM Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? Mark Post wrote: For all you folks out there that keep wanting to put / in an LV, all I can say is masochists. I keep /boot in the root file system, and break out everything else. Mark, I have always agreed with your point of view, but even I am considering using / in an LV to be able to use LVM2 snapshots. Of course if SLES had UnionFS or AUFS, that would work well enough for most files, but LVM2 snapshots are very nice ;-) (What I am looking for is the ability to fall back to a point in time for one or more files or a complete filesystem, without involving complicated time-consuming backup/restore of tons of data.) mark -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
David Boyes wrote: I guess I'm missing something here. If you split out all the subsidiary filesystems, what ever changes in / other than the atime of the mount points for the other filesystems? You don't WANT stuff in /, and restoring / is a few seconds work if all the real work is in the subsidiary filesystems. LVM snapshots are pretty cool, but is it worth the pain when (not if) it breaks? / will typically include /etc and then many subdirectories below it. mark -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
/ will typically include /etc and then many subdirectories below it. Ah. I overmount that as early as possible, which cures many evils (and leaves a very nice fallback system if something fails in startup; you just fall back to nothing enabled with a r/o root). But, still, that's seldom more than a few hundred K (and mostly text files at that, which don't get much versioning). -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
David Boyes wrote: / will typically include /etc and then many subdirectories below it. Ah. I overmount that as early as possible, which cures many evils (and leaves a very nice fallback system if something fails in startup; you just fall back to nothing enabled with a r/o root). But, still, that's seldom more than a few hundred K (and mostly text files at that, which don't get much versioning). Yes that's a really good idea - using a bind mount from another filesystem in the LVM2 ? something like: mount --bind /etc /origetc mount --bind /newetc /etc Where /origetc is simply a mountpoint in the root filesystem (to be able to maintain /etc after the next mount) and /newetc is an LV within LVM2. mark -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Yes that's a really good idea - using a bind mount from another filesystem in the LVM2 ? something like: mount --bind /etc /origetc mount --bind /newetc /etc Where /origetc is simply a mountpoint in the root filesystem (to be able to maintain /etc after the next mount) and /newetc is an LV within LVM2. Pretty much. The base /etc gets one /etc/init.d/boot.d/ script entry that remounts the other /etc over the top of the one in the root, and startup proceeds from there using the other /etc. If that fails, then you go directly to single-user mode with no network enabled to let you go fix whatever it's whinging about. Our setup also runs a small script to use CP MSG to scream to a PROP machine to let some human know about the problem. Bill Scully at CA did a nice paper/presentation on the basic idea, which I've tinkered with a bit more to make it use more VM facilities. I actually don't mount the base /etc; I want that centrally maintained and as R/O as I can make it. That shouldn't change often, if ever -- probably once a major release when I build a new template machine. Much easier to deal with overall, and scales nicely without having all that / in LVM mess involved. I suspect one could get really clever and put the initial / in a DCSS, which would promote even more sharing -- it's basically configuring a primarily diskless workstation with some local disks at that point. Hmm. I feel a white paper or a presentation coming on. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
While /etc's overmounted is it still possible to update the underlying /etc/fstab and make other needed config changes? This e-mail, including any attachments, may be confidential, privileged or otherwise legally protected. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this e-mail in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, do not disseminate, copy or otherwise use this e-mail or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete the e-mail from your system. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:43 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? / will typically include /etc and then many subdirectories below it. Ah. I overmount that as early as possible, which cures many evils (and leaves a very nice fallback system if something fails in startup; you just fall back to nothing enabled with a r/o root). But, still, that's seldom more than a few hundred K (and mostly text files at that, which don't get much versioning). -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
While /etc's overmounted is it still possible to update the underlying /etc/fstab and make other needed config changes? You can mount the base /etc at another point in the tree and edit, although the point of the setup I want is that you never have to (substitute minidisks at the correct addresses and use by-path addresses for anything that's early enough in boot to be before the overmount of /etc on the base. It takes a little thought (and z/VM), but it's worth it. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Mark; For all you folks out there that keep wanting to put / in an LV, all I can say is masochists. I keep /boot in the root file system, and break out everything else. # df -h FilesystemSize Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/dasda1 388M 125M 243M 35% / /dev/mapper/vg01-home 97M 4.2M 88M 5% /home /dev/mapper/vg01-opt 74M 21M 50M 30% /opt /dev/mapper/vg01-srv 100M 33M67M 33% /srv /dev/mapper/vg01-tmp 291M 33M 244M 12% /tmp /dev/mapper/vg01-usr 1.2G 1022M 76M 94% /usr /dev/mapper/vg01-var 245M 81M 152M 35% /var This is essentially our approach, as well, although we keep things simpler. We deploy on half a 3390-9. Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/dasda1 2393024 1372088 1020936 58% / udev 43656 100 43556 1% /dev /dev/mapper/vgroot-lvopt 801216184884616332 24% /opt /dev/mapper/vgroot-lvvar 387520 98136289384 26% /var none 43656 0 43656 0% /tmp IMO /srv is a waste of effort. ok r. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Mark Perry wrote: David Boyes wrote: I guess I'm missing something here. If you split out all the subsidiary filesystems, what ever changes in / other than the atime of the mount points for the other filesystems? You don't WANT stuff in /, and restoring / is a few seconds work if all the real work is in the subsidiary filesystems. LVM snapshots are pretty cool, but is it worth the pain when (not if) it breaks? / will typically include /etc and then many subdirectories below it. mark / is also intended to contain other stuff, the binaries you need to get things working well enough to find everything else, the libraries they require, the kernel modules. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 8:19 AM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- What steps did you take? I found if you leave space on /dev/dasda, then click LVM, that the free space on /dev/dasda would not be available for use in a volume group. -snip- A colleague suggested a way to get this accomplished. I have two 3338 cyl minidisks that become /dev/dasda and /dev/dasdb. From the Expert Partitioner window: 1) Click Create = choose /dev/dasda = choose Format, ext3 = choose your size and Mount point (/ for example) 2) Click Create = choose /dev/dasda = choose Do not format = enter all blanks for Mount point (I see now that the last entry in the dropdown menu is blanks - aha - the hidden key :)). This is what I've always done. If you want to give a partition to LVM, you have to create it first. -snip- Note the inconsistentcy - I did not have to create a /dev/dasdb1 for /dev/dasdb to be available to LVM, but I did have to do this extra step for /dev/dasda. I would suggest for the installer to be If you're not creating a single partition on /dev/dasdb, you're asking for trouble at some point in the future. *Every* DASD volume formatted in CDL must have at least one partition defined for it. You wouldn't do it on a midrange system (pipe down Rick, I know you would), and you shouldn't do it here. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:29 PM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Stricklin, Raymond J [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- IMO /srv is a waste of effort. Until some webmaster decides to dump a few 4.7GB DVD .iso files in it, and your system craters. If I'm not going to be running FTP or HTTP, I don't break out /srv either. The catch is forgetting to break it out when you _do_ install Apache or vsftpd. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:03 AM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- (What I am looking for is the ability to fall back to a point in time for one or more files or a complete filesystem, without involving complicated time-consuming backup/restore of tons of data.) I built three very minimal systems with a customer today, using my file system layout. Including the 33MB ext3 journal in /, the amount of space used was ~95MB. I don't consider that very much at all. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Mark; Until some webmaster decides to dump a few 4.7GB DVD .iso files in it, and your system craters. I was speaking to its merit overall, without regard to whether to make it separate or not. I find it to be among the more sophomoric additions to the LSB in general and the FHS in particular. And in the case of the webmaster, I recommend electroshock therapy. ok r. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
What is a good generic disk layout?
Hello list, It's difficult to come up with a one-size-fits-all disk layout for Linux. In the past I've just punted and created a single 3390-3-sized root file system. That often fills up quickly, so most would probably agree that more space is require. Here is a proposed minidisk layout for two 3390-3s: MDISK 100 3390 0001 0050 = for /boot = cannot boot from a logical volume MDISK 101 3390 0051 0500 = for / = in event that lv is hosed, system will not boot MDISK 102 3390 0551 2788 = for LVM volume group = to break file systems out of the root MDISK 103 3390 0001 3338 = for LVM volume group = to be able to grow in other than / and /boot A volume group can then be carved into the following logical volumes /usr usr-lv 1.6GB = to allow for a fair number of packages /var var-lv 300MB /opt opt-lv 400MB = to allow for X and a graphical desktop /srv srv-lv 50MB /home home-lv 50MB = utilize central NFS-automounted space later /tmp tmp-lv 400MB = (or put it into a tmpfs?) ??? = any missing that could fill up? These LVs would leave the volume group with more than 1GB free for growth. Comments on this proposal? Thanks. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Hi all, Just a followup question (Mike and I are working together on this): We're considering this layout due to some difficulty we had in the SLES installer. Ideally, we'd like a 3338 cylinder 100 disk with /boot (ext3 filesystem) and the remaining space used for an LVM volume, so 2 partitions total. However, when we create the /boot ext3 partition, the LVM button doesn't allow us to use dasda any longer for a Volume Group. If we take off /boot, we can use dasda, but since /boot can't be on the LVM this won't work either. It's almost like once you put an ext3 filesystem on dasda, you can no longer use it for LVM. Has anyone run into this situation before? If so, is there a way to put 2 partitions (1 ext3, 1 LVM PV) on dasda during install? Thanks, -Brad On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 09:44 -0400, Michael MacIsaac wrote: Hello list, It's difficult to come up with a one-size-fits-all disk layout for Linux. In the past I've just punted and created a single 3390-3-sized root file system. That often fills up quickly, so most would probably agree that more space is require. Here is a proposed minidisk layout for two 3390-3s: MDISK 100 3390 0001 0050 = for /boot = cannot boot from a logical volume MDISK 101 3390 0051 0500 = for / = in event that lv is hosed, system will not boot MDISK 102 3390 0551 2788 = for LVM volume group = to break file systems out of the root MDISK 103 3390 0001 3338 = for LVM volume group = to be able to grow in other than / and /boot A volume group can then be carved into the following logical volumes /usr usr-lv 1.6GB = to allow for a fair number of packages /var var-lv 300MB /opt opt-lv 400MB = to allow for X and a graphical desktop /srv srv-lv 50MB /home home-lv 50MB = utilize central NFS-automounted space later /tmp tmp-lv 400MB = (or put it into a tmpfs?) ??? = any missing that could fill up? These LVs would leave the volume group with more than 1GB free for growth. Comments on this proposal? Thanks. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Brad Hinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sr. Support Engineer Lead, System z Red Hat, Inc. (919) 754-4198 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
At first glance, looks nice... but, X and a graphical desktop? Should we be encouraging this? Or does the speed of the z10 make it a moot point? Will 10, 100 or 1000 KDE desktops on a z10 matter? Michael MacIsaac wrote: Hello list, It's difficult to come up with a one-size-fits-all disk layout for Linux. In the past I've just punted and created a single 3390-3-sized root file system. That often fills up quickly, so most would probably agree that more space is require. Here is a proposed minidisk layout for two 3390-3s: MDISK 100 3390 0001 0050 = for /boot = cannot boot from a logical volume MDISK 101 3390 0051 0500 = for / = in event that lv is hosed, system will not boot MDISK 102 3390 0551 2788 = for LVM volume group = to break file systems out of the root MDISK 103 3390 0001 3338 = for LVM volume group = to be able to grow in other than / and /boot A volume group can then be carved into the following logical volumes /usr usr-lv 1.6GB = to allow for a fair number of packages /var var-lv 300MB /opt opt-lv 400MB = to allow for X and a graphical desktop /srv srv-lv 50MB /home home-lv 50MB = utilize central NFS-automounted space later /tmp tmp-lv 400MB = (or put it into a tmpfs?) ??? = any missing that could fill up? These LVs would leave the volume group with more than 1GB free for growth. Comments on this proposal? Thanks. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2008 - Chattanooga - April 18-22, 2008 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
can't you make partition1 dasda1 /boot and partition2 dasda2 the PV for LVM? This e-mail, including any attachments, may be confidential, privileged or otherwise legally protected. It is intended only for the addressee. If you received this e-mail in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, do not disseminate, copy or otherwise use this e-mail or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete the e-mail from your system. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Hinson Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:06 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? Hi all, Just a followup question (Mike and I are working together on this): We're considering this layout due to some difficulty we had in the SLES installer. Ideally, we'd like a 3338 cylinder 100 disk with /boot (ext3 filesystem) and the remaining space used for an LVM volume, so 2 partitions total. However, when we create the /boot ext3 partition, the LVM button doesn't allow us to use dasda any longer for a Volume Group. If we take off /boot, we can use dasda, but since /boot can't be on the LVM this won't work either. It's almost like once you put an ext3 filesystem on dasda, you can no longer use it for LVM. Has anyone run into this situation before? If so, is there a way to put 2 partitions (1 ext3, 1 LVM PV) on dasda during install? Thanks, -Brad On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 09:44 -0400, Michael MacIsaac wrote: Hello list, It's difficult to come up with a one-size-fits-all disk layout for Linux. In the past I've just punted and created a single 3390-3-sized root file system. That often fills up quickly, so most would probably agree that more space is require. Here is a proposed minidisk layout for two 3390-3s: MDISK 100 3390 0001 0050 = for /boot = cannot boot from a logical volume MDISK 101 3390 0051 0500 = for / = in event that lv is hosed, system will not boot MDISK 102 3390 0551 2788 = for LVM volume group = to break file systems out of the root MDISK 103 3390 0001 3338 = for LVM volume group = to be able to grow in other than / and /boot A volume group can then be carved into the following logical volumes /usr usr-lv 1.6GB = to allow for a fair number of packages /var var-lv 300MB /opt opt-lv 400MB = to allow for X and a graphical desktop /srv srv-lv 50MB /home home-lv 50MB = utilize central NFS-automounted space later /tmp tmp-lv 400MB = (or put it into a tmpfs?) ??? = any missing that could fill up? These LVs would leave the volume group with more than 1GB free for growth. Comments on this proposal? Thanks. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Brad Hinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sr. Support Engineer Lead, System z Red Hat, Inc. (919) 754-4198 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
X and a graphical desktop? Should we be encouraging this? Installing them and running them are two different things. It's sometimes nice to have one installed so it can be started only when a graphical environment is necessary. But you do bring up a good point. can't you make partition1 dasda1 /boot and partition2 dasda2 the PV for LVM? I could not figure how to do that with the SLES installer. It seems once you use a volume for a conventional file system, it precludes the remainder of the volume from being used for LVM, and vice versa. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
On Apr 8, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Romanowski, John (OFT) wrote: can't you make partition1 dasda1 /boot and partition2 dasda2 the PV for LVM? Sub-partitioning DASD on zSeries is really not a very good idea. If you're running under VM, you've already GOT virtualized disk. Make /dev/dasda a small /boot parition (so, only give it 80 cylinders or something) and make /dev/dasdb a bigger volume which you can make into an LVM PV if you want to. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Some products can only be installed from an X11 session. It seems like DB2 is one. I didn't do the install, however the person that did the install told me he had to use X11. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rich Smrcina Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:24 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? At first glance, looks nice... but, X and a graphical desktop? Should we be encouraging this? Or does the speed of the z10 make it a moot point? Will 10, 100 or 1000 KDE desktops on a z10 matter? Michael MacIsaac wrote: Hello list, It's difficult to come up with a one-size-fits-all disk layout for Linux. In the past I've just punted and created a single 3390-3-sized root file system. That often fills up quickly, so most would probably agree that more space is require. Here is a proposed minidisk layout for two 3390-3s: MDISK 100 3390 0001 0050 = for /boot = cannot boot from a logical volume MDISK 101 3390 0051 0500 = for / = in event that lv is hosed, system will not boot MDISK 102 3390 0551 2788 = for LVM volume group = to break file systems out of the root MDISK 103 3390 0001 3338 = for LVM volume group = to be able to grow in other than / and /boot A volume group can then be carved into the following logical volumes /usr usr-lv 1.6GB = to allow for a fair number of packages /var var-lv 300MB /opt opt-lv 400MB = to allow for X and a graphical desktop /srv srv-lv 50MB /home home-lv 50MB = utilize central NFS-automounted space later /tmp tmp-lv 400MB = (or put it into a tmpfs?) ??? = any missing that could fill up? These LVs would leave the volume group with more than 1GB free for growth. Comments on this proposal? Thanks. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2008 - Chattanooga - April 18-22, 2008 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 __ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review or use, including disclosure or distribution, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this email. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
-Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fargusson.Alan Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:42 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? Some products can only be installed from an X11 session. It seems like DB2 is one. I didn't do the install, however the person that did the install told me he had to use X11. I think that Oracle installation requires X11 also. I know it does on z/OS. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
I understand that, and the installation and use of X should be the exception, not the rule. Software that require X for installation being the exception (but should be encouraged to provide a non-graphical alternative). I still think in this shared environment that we should not be tempting admins with the potential to be starting up graphical environments on any whim. DB2 does have a silent installation option, X is not required (and it goes ALOT faster). Fargusson.Alan wrote: Some products can only be installed from an X11 session. It seems like DB2 is one. I didn't do the install, however the person that did the install told me he had to use X11. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rich Smrcina Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:24 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? At first glance, looks nice... but, X and a graphical desktop? Should we be encouraging this? Or does the speed of the z10 make it a moot point? Will 10, 100 or 1000 KDE desktops on a z10 matter? -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2008 - Chattanooga - April 18-22, 2008 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
I have my dasda in 3 partitions. dasda1 is /boot dasda2 is / and dasda3 is LVM for everything else. This was done with SLES10 SP1 so you should be able to do it too. (Note we have standardized on Mod 9s for the volume sizes and each server gets as a default 2 Mod 9's ). Jerry Whitteridge Safeway Inc 925 951 4184 -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MacIsaac Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 8:12 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? X and a graphical desktop? Should we be encouraging this? Installing them and running them are two different things. It's sometimes nice to have one installed so it can be started only when a graphical environment is necessary. But you do bring up a good point. can't you make partition1 dasda1 /boot and partition2 dasda2 the PV for LVM? I could not figure how to do that with the SLES installer. It seems once you use a volume for a conventional file system, it precludes the remainder of the volume from being used for LVM, and vice versa. Mike MacIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 Email Firewall made the following annotations. -- Warning: All e-mail sent to this address will be received by the corporate e-mail system, and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. This e-mail may contain proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient(s), you are notified that you have received this message in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. == -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
We're using the following layout: Allocate the following disks to the Linux guest: * 124 cylinders minimum as device num 391, used as /boot * 10016 cylinders minimum as device num 392, used as vg_system. * 10016 cylinders minimum as device num 393, used as vg_local * ?? cylinders as device numbers 394+, used as vg_app, vg_db, etc. as required by app During the Linux install, allocate the disk as follows: * /dev/dasda1 (391) as /boot * /dev/dasdb1 (392) as LVM vg_system o / - 2.0 gb o /var - 2.5 gb o /tmp - 500 mb o swap - 1 gb * /dev/dasdc1 (393) as LVM vg_local o /home - 2 gb o /opt - 5.4 gb This provides us with a minimal /boot outside of LVM, isolates /var and /tmp from the root file system, and places /home and /opt on its own disk. This leaves us with a disk usage after install somewhat like the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/mapper/vg_system-lv_root 2890692 2074908668944 76% / udev509860 104509756 1% /dev /dev/dasda1 87076 16544 66040 21% /boot /dev/mapper/vg_local-lv_home 2064208 95864 1863488 5% /home /dev/mapper/vg_local-lv_opt 4954828595096 4108036 13% /opt /dev/mapper/vg_system-lv_tmp 495944110616359728 24% /tmp /dev/mapper/vg_system-lv_var 2580272216860 2232340 9% /var [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ Hope this helps... -- Robert P. Nix Mayo Foundation.~. RO-OE-5-55 200 First Street SW/V\ 507-284-0844 Rochester, MN 55905 /( )\ -^^-^^ In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different. On 4/8/08 10:31 AM, Adam Thornton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Romanowski, John (OFT) wrote: can't you make partition1 dasda1 /boot and partition2 dasda2 the PV for LVM? Sub-partitioning DASD on zSeries is really not a very good idea. If you're running under VM, you've already GOT virtualized disk. Make /dev/dasda a small /boot parition (so, only give it 80 cylinders or something) and make /dev/dasdb a bigger volume which you can make into an LVM PV if you want to. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
I also try to keep /var (even /var/log), /home, and /tmp on separate file systems. It reduces the chances of phone calls at 3AM! Additionally I provide a 20cyl. /config disk which I maintain from CMS. On startup, boot.local reads from /config to customize the Linux instance on the fly. Ray Mrohs -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RPN01 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:36 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? We're using the following layout: Allocate the following disks to the Linux guest: * 124 cylinders minimum as device num 391, used as /boot * 10016 cylinders minimum as device num 392, used as vg_system. * 10016 cylinders minimum as device num 393, used as vg_local * ?? cylinders as device numbers 394+, used as vg_app, vg_db, etc. as required by app During the Linux install, allocate the disk as follows: * /dev/dasda1 (391) as /boot * /dev/dasdb1 (392) as LVM vg_system o / - 2.0 gb o /var - 2.5 gb o /tmp - 500 mb o swap - 1 gb * /dev/dasdc1 (393) as LVM vg_local o /home - 2 gb o /opt - 5.4 gb This provides us with a minimal /boot outside of LVM, isolates /var and /tmp from the root file system, and places /home and /opt on its own disk. This leaves us with a disk usage after install somewhat like the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/mapper/vg_system-lv_root 2890692 2074908668944 76% / udev509860 104509756 1% /dev /dev/dasda1 87076 16544 66040 21% /boot /dev/mapper/vg_local-lv_home 2064208 95864 1863488 5% /home /dev/mapper/vg_local-lv_opt 4954828595096 4108036 13% /opt /dev/mapper/vg_system-lv_tmp 495944110616359728 24% /tmp /dev/mapper/vg_system-lv_var 2580272216860 2232340 9% /var [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~ Hope this helps... -- Robert P. Nix Mayo Foundation.~. RO-OE-5-55 200 First Street SW/V\ 507-284-0844 Rochester, MN 55905 /( )\ -^^-^^ In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different. On 4/8/08 10:31 AM, Adam Thornton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Romanowski, John (OFT) wrote: can't you make partition1 dasda1 /boot and partition2 dasda2 the PV for LVM? Sub-partitioning DASD on zSeries is really not a very good idea. If you're running under VM, you've already GOT virtualized disk. Make /dev/dasda a small /boot parition (so, only give it 80 cylinders or something) and make /dev/dasdb a bigger volume which you can make into an LVM PV if you want to. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
Brad, this can be done. I don't remember the exact procedure (since we built one and cloned the rest quite a while ago), but an ASv4 install using the text based anaconda allowed this, plus skipping default swap build (with a warning). My two volume (3390-9) model system consists of a 100M /boot on /dev/dasdl1, then /dev/dasdl2 has PV along with /dev/dasdm1: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# df -h FilesystemSize Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00 14G 3.1G 9.7G 24% / /dev/dasdl197M 21M 72M 22% /boot --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# pvdisplay --- Physical volume --- PV Name /dev/dasdm1 VG Name VolGroup00 PV Size 6.88 GB / not usable 2.41 MB Allocatable yes (but full) PE Size (KByte) 32768 Total PE 220 Free PE 0 Allocated PE 220 PV UUID 6V2hVT-BGXQ-MN53-XLJg-cmDN-QUJ6-jszkYf --- Physical volume --- PV Name /dev/dasdl2 VG Name VolGroup00 PV Size 6.78 GB / not usable 30.42 MB Allocatable yes PE Size (KByte) 32768 Total PE 216 Free PE 2 Allocated PE 214 PV UUID 1y67zi-nS56-tisg-CB7n-2Aul-Eg23-0wfpwb [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# vgdisplay --- Volume group --- VG Name VolGroup00 System ID Formatlvm2 Metadata Areas2 Metadata Sequence No 2 VG Access read/write VG Status resizable MAX LV0 Cur LV1 Open LV 1 Max PV0 Cur PV2 Act PV2 VG Size 13.62 GB PE Size 32.00 MB Total PE 436 Alloc PE / Size 434 / 13.56 GB Free PE / Size 2 / 64.00 MB VG UUID 0k7UXY-OvjY-CrwH-9y6z-J6gp-7SZ0-n5S5G9 - Swap was built after the fact using VDISK with a backup disk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# swapon -s FilenameTypeSizeUsedPriority /dev/dasde partition 32772 0 9 /dev/dasdf partition 32772 0 8 /dev/dasdg partition 32772 0 7 /dev/dasdh partition 32772 0 6 /dev/dasdi partition 65540 0 5 /dev/dasdj partition 65540 0 4 /dev/dasdk1 partition 7211416 0 1 --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# cat /proc/dasd/devices 0.0.0100(ECKD) at ( 94: 0) is dasda : active at blocksize: 4096, 1802880 blocks, 7042 MB 0.0.0101(ECKD) at ( 94: 4) is dasdb : active at blocksize: 4096, 1802880 blocks, 7042 MB 0.0.0102(ECKD) at ( 94: 8) is dasdc : active at blocksize: 4096, 1802880 blocks, 7042 MB 0.0.0103(ECKD) at ( 94:12) is dasdd : active at blocksize: 4096, 131400 blocks, 513 MB 0.0.0104(FBA ) at ( 94:16) is dasde : active at blocksize: 512, 65560 blocks, 32 MB 0.0.0105(FBA ) at ( 94:20) is dasdf : active at blocksize: 512, 65560 blocks, 32 MB 0.0.0106(FBA ) at ( 94:24) is dasdg : active at blocksize: 512, 65560 blocks, 32 MB 0.0.0107(FBA ) at ( 94:28) is dasdh : active at blocksize: 512, 65560 blocks, 32 MB 0.0.0108(FBA ) at ( 94:32) is dasdi : active at blocksize: 512, 131096 blocks, 64 MB 0.0.0109(FBA ) at ( 94:36) is dasdj : active at blocksize: 512, 131096 blocks, 64 MB 0.0.0200(ECKD) at ( 94:40) is dasdk : active at blocksize: 4096, 1802880 blocks, 7042 MB 0.0.0201(ECKD) at ( 94:44) is dasdl : active at blocksize: 4096, 1802880 blocks, 7042 MB 0.0.0202(ECKD) at ( 94:48) is dasdm : active at blocksize: 4096, 1802880 blocks, 7042 MB = FYI, the 100-104 MDISK's (RO shared libs, iso's, etc.) 104-109 VDISK's, 200 swap disk -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ITS/CS Network Systems Programmer State of North Carolina Office of Information Technology Services - NOTICE: E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized State officials. - -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Hinson Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:06 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: What is a good generic disk layout? Hi all, Just a followup question (Mike and I are working together on this): We're considering this layout due
Re: What is a good generic disk layout?
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:06 AM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brad Hinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- We're considering this layout due to some difficulty we had in the SLES installer. Ideally, we'd like a 3338 cylinder 100 disk with /boot (ext3 filesystem) and the remaining space used for an LVM volume, so 2 partitions total. However, when we create the /boot ext3 partition, the LVM button doesn't allow us to use dasda any longer for a Volume Group. If we take off /boot, we can use dasda, but since /boot can't be on the LVM this won't work either. It's almost like once you put an ext3 filesystem on dasda, you can no longer use it for LVM. Has anyone run into this situation before? If so, is there a way to put 2 partitions (1 ext3, 1 LVM PV) on dasda during install? It's always worked fine for me. I just went through a new SP1 install on my test system, just to make sure nothing had changed with SP1. I even tried it a couple of ways: /dev/dasda1 - /boot /dev/dasda2 - PV for VG system /dev/dasda1 - / /dev/dasda2 - PV for VG system Worked fine both ways. What, exactly, are you doing, and in what order? What error messages are you seeing? Etc. For all you folks out there that keep wanting to put / in an LV, all I can say is masochists. I keep /boot in the root file system, and break out everything else. # df -h FilesystemSize Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/dasda1 388M 125M 243M 35% / /dev/mapper/vg01-home 97M 4.2M 88M 5% /home /dev/mapper/vg01-opt 74M 21M 50M 30% /opt /dev/mapper/vg01-srv 100M 33M67M 33% /srv /dev/mapper/vg01-tmp 291M 33M 244M 12% /tmp /dev/mapper/vg01-usr 1.2G 1022M 76M 94% /usr /dev/mapper/vg01-var 245M 81M 152M 35% /var Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
