RE: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
When it comes to Flash, I think we make a mistake in thinking of it as a web format. It isn't. It's an animation format, which can be used in all kinds of ways -- freestanding applications, kiosks, mobile phones and yes, web pages. So, is the site using Flash for things like navigation, which are essential? Or does the site feature *content* which uses Flash, like a game, or just plain indefinable art? If it uses Flash for navigation, that's inaccessible. If it uses Flash for video and doesn't provide some kind of transcript or description, that's inaccessible. But if a web site wins an award, and its *content* is nothing but Flash, to me, it's winning an award for animation. It's no different from a website winning an award for its embedded Java applet -- it's not really our concern on this list. If we're concerned about web standards, we can look at that site and say OK, its primary content is in a form which is not available to all browsers/platforms, its primary content is not accessible to blind users, but that's fair enough. And then what we can judge them on is how they have dealt with visitors to their site who can't take advantage of its primary content. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: It is not that good... Yes it may load quick but it is a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. Lets hope that the designer does not win any awards That's all down to inevitable site content though. The designer has done the most he or she could, barring turning down the job. I am involved in a long-term project to design a site with accessibility features similar to this - it is a site primarily concerned with presenting music and graphic art, in key instances using flash and javascript-assisted stylistic presentation, and as such its content is mainly of a hi-tech, sensory and artistic nature. It just so happens that there is a lot of very wordy prose around the site, so perhaps it might meet your standards, but there are very large portions of the site whose raison d'etre is a method of accessing intrinsically audio and visual content that by its nature, cannot have a truly worthwhile text substitute. I am not going to tell the artists to create accessible 'alternatives' to their creations, neither am I going to tell them that their work has no place on the internet except as trivial extra features - I'm proud to be able to help them prove that the internet is exactly the place for them to do whatever they want, all the while abiding by intelligent accessibility standards. The question we should be asking ourselves is how web-based content whose ultimate purpose is to present artistic (and this includes - crucially - corporate art) media should be made to be as accessible as possible, not 'if'. But to say that such sites cannot be well designed is tragic wishful thinking. Remember design is always a means to an end. The Ivy Hotel has done a great job as far as design is concerned. Its content is indeed flimsy in concrete terms, and as an informative document it is very weak - but the internet shouldn't be limited to encyclopedias, reference manuals and opinion columns. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Your explanation makes sense but as a designer who also dabbles in seo, would not it be your right to 'suggest' and sell the importance of descent content?? The internet is a place were you find useful or useless information. It is not primely a gallery of art like this website. also you look at the websites home page and your interested so while it may entice the viewers pass the home page, they will not stay beyond that as the home page hides the problems of the whole site. I think as a designer, it is your responsibility to have important content as well as it being accessible, usable and pretty... On 2/6/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: It is not that good... Yes it may load quick but it is a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. Lets hope that the designer does not win any awards That's all down to inevitable site content though. The designer has done the most he or she could, barring turning down the job. I am involved in a long-term project to design a site with accessibility features similar to this - it is a site primarily concerned with presenting music and graphic art, in key instances using flash and javascript-assisted stylistic presentation, and as such its content is mainly of a hi-tech, sensory and artistic nature. It just so happens that there is a lot of very wordy prose around the site, so perhaps it might meet your standards, but there are very large portions of the site whose raison d'etre is a method of accessing intrinsically audio and visual content that by its nature, cannot have a truly worthwhile text substitute. I am not going to tell the artists to create accessible 'alternatives' to their creations, neither am I going to tell them that their work has no place on the internet except as trivial extra features - I'm proud to be able to help them prove that the internet is exactly the place for them to do whatever they want, all the while abiding by intelligent accessibility standards. The question we should be asking ourselves is how web-based content whose ultimate purpose is to present artistic (and this includes - crucially - corporate art) media should be made to be as accessible as possible, not 'if'. But to say that such sites cannot be well designed is tragic wishful thinking. Remember design is always a means to an end. The Ivy Hotel has done a great job as far as design is concerned. Its content is indeed flimsy in concrete terms, and as an informative document it is very weak - but the internet shouldn't be limited to encyclopedias, reference manuals and opinion columns. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: Your explanation makes sense but as a designer who also dabbles in seo, would not it be your right to 'suggest' and sell the importance of descent content?? The internet is a place were you find useful or useless information. It is not primely a gallery of art like this website. Just out of curiousity, exactly what content do you find missing from this site? What questions do you have about this hotel that remain unanswered? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Photos of what the rooms look like would be one obvious example of what would make this website a bit more credible. On 2/6/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: Your explanation makes sense but as a designer who also dabbles in seo, would not it be your right to 'suggest' and sell the importance of descent content?? The internet is a place were you find useful or useless information. It is not primely a gallery of art like this website. Just out of curiousity, exactly what content do you find missing from this site? What questions do you have about this hotel that remain unanswered? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: Photos of what the rooms look like would be one obvious example of what would make this website a bit more credible. Wow. Lack of room photos equates to: a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. :: not to mention not credible??? Wow. Interesting perspective. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Ok I guess your having a dig at me but I will humour you If your in the hotel business and advertising for a brand new hotel, you need to sell your business and entice people away from their current 'fav' hotels to yours. Do you think not having any photos and just a nice flashy home page will do that? I know for a FACT that it will not. I am currently looking at hotels etc for my honeymoon and you know what me and my fiance look at??? Yes we look at photos of the hotel, what it and the rooms looks like. On 2/6/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: Photos of what the rooms look like would be one obvious example of what would make this website a bit more credible. Wow. Lack of room photos equates to: a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. :: not to mention not credible??? Wow. Interesting perspective. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: If your in the hotel business and advertising for a brand new hotel, you need to sell your business and entice people away from their current 'fav' hotels to yours. Do you think not having any photos and just a nice flashy home page will do that? I know for a FACT that it will not. Interesting definition of FACT :-) I am currently looking at hotels etc for my honeymoon and you know what me and my fiance look at??? Yes we look at photos of the hotel, what it and the rooms looks like. Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? So one flash embedded image and a photo of the hotel exterior is going to give you a good feel about what the hotel is all about??? I do not think so mate. Most hotel websites have a few photos for each different hotel room (penthouse, budget etc) and also photos of the hotel area (reception, restaurant, pool, garden etc) I suggest you to take 5 minutes out of having a go at my emails and go and find some hotel websites and I bet majority of them have more than two photos on their whole website. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/6/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? So one flash embedded image and a photo of the hotel exterior is going to give you a good feel about what the hotel is all about??? I do not think so mate. Most hotel websites have a few photos for each different hotel room (penthouse, budget etc) and also photos of the hotel area (reception, restaurant, pool, garden etc) OK, clearly this website is not a good example of an effective business site but it's a decent example of a progressively-enhanced Flash site. Let's not argue about its business merits... that's straying from the topic of web standards. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
It is not that good... Yes it may load quick but it is a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. Lets hope that the designer does not win any awards On 2/3/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Bravo! I took a quick (and only quick) look in Lynx and got a meaningful site. I think that this could be a first. And also a last, as this example neatly takes away any excuse for a primarily Flash-based site to be inaccessible. I seem to recall this all started talking about awards - whoever did the Ivy Hotel design should certainly be in the running for one. Cheers M (Still can't get over it working well in Lynx.) -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Matthew Smith wrote: tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Not liking fancy animations does not make you an accessibility advocate. Apparently everyone hates flash, but for different reasons. Hehehe. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Funny enough, website development depends on your site goal, target audience and client's want. If your site demands that you use a flash (if it's a major communication) then you have to use flash. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barney Carroll Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) Matthew Smith wrote: tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Not liking fancy animations does not make you an accessibility advocate. Apparently everyone hates flash, but for different reasons. Hehehe. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz, those sites are incredibly flash-intensive. Without flash, they fail. With flash and a slow connection (or even processor), they run badly. I'm afraid any objective source would give those low marks for accessibility. But they are entirely based on style - there is no real substance in there, it's just visuals. So the demographics they're excluding have nothing to gain from accessing the sites anyway. At which point, to be honest, I'd stop worrying. There is no reason for you to beat yourself up over these things - perhaps nice little flash tests and messages of 'nothing for you here!' on fail, and you've left no-one unaccounted. Having said that, for creations entirely dedicated to art, they're awfully flimsy. This is the 'art' of college design student bimbos drunk on their own hormones and stumbling about the room looking to fall into the lap of the nearest fad. Of course the only fads that stand out when you're inebriated to this point are the ones with garish colours and stuff jumping out all over the place. I suppose if you gave these guys creative directors they could do corporate ads on the internet, possibly music group web sites. 'Emotional' is too strong a word, I reckon (or not strong enough, depending on where you stand). 'Sentimental' might be better. Although it still gives a good indication of the contents. We were warned! Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Now that's what I'm talking about. When everything is available as raw XML and you've got XSLT, you're in flexible heaven. Rob O'Rourke wrote: Not necessarily, check out what Dan Cederholm wrote about his work on MTV.com [1], they have a fully flash site that runs from a server-side generated xml file. Dan's role was to create XSLTs that transformed the same information into an accessible HTML version of the site so that users could chop and change as they saw fit. Now that's the way things should be done if an ENTIRE site is to be made in flash =] [1] http://www.simplebits.com/work/mtv/ I'm actually working on a browser-based multiplayer game with a friend of mine that will work in this way, hopefully it'll be the first truly accessible one too. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Yea, I agree with your comment. Contents that is available through xml for flash improves performance. Also given the user a choice to switch to version of site is good idea to meet end users viewing experience. Like I said, all still boils down to the project goal, target audience and your client. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) Sunday John wrote: Funny enough, website development depends on your site goal, target audience and client's want. If your site demands that you use a flash (if it's a major communication) then you have to use flash. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com Not necessarily, check out what Dan Cederholm wrote about his work on MTV.com [1], they have a fully flash site that runs from a server-side generated xml file. Dan's role was to create XSLTs that transformed the same information into an accessible HTML version of the site so that users could chop and change as they saw fit. Now that's the way things should be done if an ENTIRE site is to be made in flash =] [1] http://www.simplebits.com/work/mtv/ I'm actually working on a browser-based multiplayer game with a friend of mine that will work in this way, hopefully it'll be the first truly accessible one too. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Sunday John wrote: Yea, I agree with your comment. Contents that is available through xml for flash improves performance. Also given the user a choice to switch to version of site is good idea to meet end users viewing experience. Like I said, all still boils down to the project goal, target audience and your client. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com True, I'm starting to realise that more and more now as the works piling up =$ Still, at least the world of corporate merchandise e-commerce is a little more accessible now =] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 16:37 +, Rob O'Rourke wrote: True, I'm starting to realise that more and more now as the works piling up =$ Still, at least the world of corporate merchandise e-commerce is a little more accessible now =] Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ -m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Incidentally, I understand that the Googlebot can't read flash-based content, and will generally ignore your metadata. If you're not accessible to Goggle, you can hardly be said to be on the web. cheers mark (spending time at the Wellington 7's!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Thanks for pointing that out Christian, I always loved flash(y) sites before I knew anything about web standards etc... it's nice to know that there are options out there, at least when I have the ability to make something that might be considered arty. Anyone want to lend me a copy of flash 8? =P Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 17:01 -0500, Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Beautiful site - took 1 1/2 to 2 minutes for some pages to load completely on dialup but everything 'important' was available almost immediately. Great site and wasn't bothered by any ugly 'you need flash' notices (why do some/so many designers tolerate having their work marred by those notices when they could do something like this. Great stuff. -m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Bravo! I took a quick (and only quick) look in Lynx and got a meaningful site. I think that this could be a first. And also a last, as this example neatly takes away any excuse for a primarily Flash-based site to be inaccessible. I seem to recall this all started talking about awards - whoever did the Ivy Hotel design should certainly be in the running for one. Cheers M (Still can't get over it working well in Lynx.) -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Well, I'll wait with interest to see the response from those whose primary interest is accessibility . . . (I'd duck, if I were you !) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Duck ? Bob - I don't think so... There is a large difference between the word design/designer and code/coder, designer and design are connected with the pure art with a support of usability - code - that's only accesibility... but of course - that's only my opinion... Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) - Original Message - From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Well, I'll wait with interest to see the response from those whose primary interest is accessibility . . . (I'd duck, if I were you !) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Not fair. You picked these sites, so you have to define your criteria. The ball is in your court to answer that question. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Not fair. You picked these sites, so you have to define your criteria. The ball is in your court to answer that question. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' could be implemented with no changes to the html. Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web usability/accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into any one category other than 'web'. And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just want to know if we think they're pretty/usable? What is your opinion on web accessibility? Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz - Your site's opening page took almost three minutes to load on a dialup connection... b'bye. I gave up trying to view sites after three successive 'you need flash' notices... b'bye. Judging by what I (finally) saw on your opening page I would guess that the listed pages are quite beautiful but I'll never know. Do flash designers congratulate their clients on being willing to give up a significant proportion of their possible web-related profits for the sake of art (through sites not being accessible, or simply too slow)? I love beautiful sites - but I have to be able to see them before I can appreciate them. -m On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 20:06 +, Rob O'Rourke wrote: Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' could be implemented with no changes to the html. Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web usability/accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into any one category other than 'web'. And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just want to know if we think they're pretty/usable? What is your opinion on web accessibility? Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Rob O'Rourke wrote: Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' could be implemented with no changes to the html. Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web usability/ accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into any one category other than 'web'. And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just want to know if we think they're pretty/usable? What is your opinion on web accessibility? Rob Nicely put, Rob :) Oh by the way, one of the site (mandchou.com I think) gave me this error: A script in this movie is causing Adobe Flash 9 to run slowly. If it continues to run, your computer may become unresponsive. Do you want to abort the script (YES no) . I think the about message speaks abit about how bad the usability and accesibility for your eye-catching sites? They are pretty though, no doubt about it. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... I define 'accessible' as be given access. In normal terms that means that if one access-point is closed to particular visitors for whatever reason, then alternatives should be provided. I find a message like Instale o Flash Player to be a closed access-point, and there's no alternative. I also define 'accessible' as be given (at least) a minimum amount of information, so one can make some kind of informed choice. Seems to be lacking also, as I wasn't even informed about which Flash Player version to install on that particular page. (According to Adobe I have Flash Player installed in all my browsers, so it would be nice to know why I should install a new one.) So, I think at least some of those designers should have designed a bit more accessible. They do have the same tools as the rest of us. I also think whoever designed and/or authored the 100 the best E-motional Websites site should have provided a slightly more informative alternative text to those link-images, as seeing The Best 100 of E-motionalDesign.com repeated that many times isn't very informative - IMO. So, yes, I think the experience and accessibility-level can be lifted quite a bit with some informative text. Seriously - a dozen or so well-selected and well-placed words might make all the difference on most of those sites - accessibility-wise. Shouldn't limit the artistic freedom on any level, so I can't see why not. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/2/07 5:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff No idea but you might try asking Apple - it looks exactly the way the Apple Dock works!! (And I'm not entering the art/accessibility discussion - too many strong feelings on that grin) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php On 2/1/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/2/07 5:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff No idea but you might try asking Apple - it looks exactly the way the Apple Dock works!! (And I'm not entering the art/accessibility discussion - too many strong feelings on that grin) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Quoth jonnysoco at 02/02/07 09:41... http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php Ah, that's what a Mac dock looks like; haven't seen a Mac for about eight years. Eeeew! The animation nearly made me seasick ;-) Do Macs have a means of turning the animation off for those (like me) who cannot tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Matthew Smith wrote: Ah, that's what a Mac dock looks like; haven't seen a Mac for about eight years. Eeeew! The animation nearly made me seasick ;-) Do Macs have a means of turning the animation off for those (like me) who cannot tolerate screen motion? Yes. And you can adjust the degree of resize as well, thankfully :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Oh yes. You can choose to have the icons bigger or smaller, and the animation on or off. And the animation relates to the size of the icons - smaller icons = smaller animation. You can also have them not visible at all until you put your cursor right at the bottom of the screen (or wherever the dock is located on your desktop) ... :) On 2/2/07 9:50 AM, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth jonnysoco at 02/02/07 09:41... http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php Ah, that's what a Mac dock looks like; haven't seen a Mac for about eight years. Eeeew! The animation nearly made me seasick ;-) Do Macs have a means of turning the animation off for those (like me) who cannot tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Cheers M *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
- Original Message - From: jonnysoco To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php Awesome! Thank you. Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Why would you want to create such an image gallery for navigation, no rollover titles, no idea where each link goes, uses a lot of images for a text based navigation system, maybe it is art but not much else. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 6:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional- websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 9:56:49 am Why would you want to create such an image gallery for navigation, no rollover titles, no idea where each link goes, uses a lot of images for a text based navigation system, maybe it is art but not much else. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 6:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional- websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Picasso's art did make sense, that is why he is famous now. Simple lines. If Picasso were making webpages they would all be accessible. This comparison of genius with self indulgent art for arts sake is annoying. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 1:05 PM, Jermayn Parker wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 9:56:49 am Why would you want to create such an image gallery for navigation, no rollover titles, no idea where each link goes, uses a lot of images for a text based navigation system, maybe it is art but not much else. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 6:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional- websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** *** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. *** *** *** * The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 *** ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
some of it makes sense (like self portraits etc) but a lot of his sculptures and other stuff doesnt, it went agaisnt the grain of normal painting etc of his era [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 10:14:18 am On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - ADMIN
ADMIN - THREAD MOVING OFF TOPIC This thread is fast becoming off-topic, or at least, off focus. If you wish to post to the thread, please keep it focussed and constructive. Thanks Russ Admin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Interesting how people today still either get Picasso or they don't. Says a lot about the timelessness of the work... Noah PerthWebDesigns.com Quoting Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED]: some of it makes sense (like self portraits etc) but a lot of his sculptures and other stuff doesnt, it went agaisnt the grain of normal painting etc of his era [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 10:14:18 am On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Noah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting how people today still either get Picasso or they don't. Says a lot about the timelessness of the work... Well, list-admin said we have to get back on topic, so I'm still wondering if Milosz will share his definition of accessible. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread. G'day. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
OK so how do we help the lecturers??? Is giving them links and offering services as a guest lecturer help? Would not this undermind the old practices that they teach??? [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/01/2007 10:02:12 am Doesn't the ACS (In Australia) claim to be our peek standards body? (Also assuming that Web Dev comes under the Computing banner). Wouldn't they (or somebody like them) be the ones to issue a certificate? (One look at their web site will tell you how seriously they take web standards.) The attitude seems to be that web development isn't real IT. The funny thing is that people in the webby area also seem to feel this way. I brought this up on another list and quite a few were adamant that an IT professional was one that hooked up networks. To me, an IT person is someone who can work with either information or computer systems, from either the technical or human standpoint. That is probably the biggest problem that needs to be solved first and before we try to teach the next generation of devolpers. The problem I see with this arguement is that I do not get 'myself off' by the latest 'geeky' talk like most IT people, I just love coding web pages and im sure majority or some of the developers are the same. Yes we are IT but do we behave and act like IT??? (maybe this is a new arguement/ debate) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Jermayn Parker wrote: OK so how do we help the lecturers??? It's possibly at this point that it's worth mentioning the WaSP Education Task Force (EduTF) http://webstandards.org/action/edutf P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Are these free??? and even i they are, would lectures go to them?? On 1/29/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: OK so how do we help the lecturers??? It's possibly at this point that it's worth mentioning the WaSP Education Task Force (EduTF) http://webstandards.org/action/edutf P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
I think this is the only way it is going to happen if you actually get lecturers willing in their own time to learn and implement the standards into the courses. From my experience majority of the lecturers ive meet would not do that! On 1/29/07, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/29/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so how do we help the lecturers??? Is giving them links and offering services as a guest lecturer help? Would not this undermind the old practices that they teach??? Port80/AWIA (http://www.port80.asn.au) is speaking with two TAFEs in Perth about bringing the skills of their lecturers up to date - recommendations for professional development and mentoring are two things that have been suggested. It's early days yet, but I think it's a great example of what can be done when organisations actually sit down and talk to each other, and what we do will hopefully become a model and case study for other states in Australia. We have a TAFE lecturer who is heavily involved with course development on the committee and she's leading the charge. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
On 29/01/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so how do we help the lecturers??? Is giving them links and offering services as a guest lecturer help? Would not this undermind the old practices that they teach??? Yes, it would undermine the old practises they are currently teaching. The way I see it, that kind of the whole point. :) We WANT to undermine these practises, because they aren't good practises. It's just a matter of picking the right way to suggest it. No good saying We want to come in and teach something completely different to you, and in the process make it look as if you know nothing. Funnily enough, that's not going to bet a very positive response. But what if, instead, we did more than just offer to guest lecture? What if we also offered to give them some materials they could draw on for their own lectures, and if they are interested enough but don't feel confident about tackling it alone we could offer to go through it with them before they have to present it so they are sure they understand it? Sure, it won't see table-based layouts dropped from the syllabus overnight, but it will at least mean that it's not the only thing these up-and-coming developers learn. The attitude seems to be that web development isn't real IT. The funny thing is that people in the webby area also seem to feel this way. I brought this up on another list and quite a few were adamant that an IT professional was one that hooked up networks. To me, an IT person is someone who can work with either information or computer systems, from either the technical or human standpoint. That is probably the biggest problem that needs to be solved first and before we try to teach the next generation of devolpers. The problem I see with this arguement is that I do not get 'myself off' by the latest 'geeky' talk like most IT people, I just love coding web pages and im sure majority or some of the developers are the same. Yes we are IT but do we behave and act like IT??? (maybe this is a new arguement/ debate) I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry at this one, to be honest. It's sad that with technology such a major and integral part of our lives these days, IT people are still seen as geeks who 'get off' on gadgets and code. Sure, I won't say they don't still exist, but it's a very limiting view of IT. I consider myself an IT professional. There's probably people out there who'd classify me as a geek, both because I'm a web programmer for a living and because I like things like fantasy and science fiction novels. *shrug* I can't really say that I 'get off' on geeky talk or any of the rest. Yes there's a certain amount of enjoyment to be had in discussing things that relate to my work with other like-minded individuals - that's one of the reasons I'm on this list. I see that as just not wanting to live in a box though. If I never interacted with other developers, I'd never get any better because I wouldn't know that there's other ways of doing things. To my mind, you don't need to wear thick black-rimmed spectacles held together with sellotape and carry your pens in a pocket-protector to be an IT professional. Cheers, Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Re http://www.port80.asn.au http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.port80.asn.au%2F A missing paragraph tag, a small error It passes S.508 tests with Cynthia! Fails AAA testing I am not likely to pay $150 to join it.. My experience of TAFE publishing are not positive and I do not think they can cope with rapid change. I have worked in TAFE publishing for 10 years with McGraw-Hill and then the defunct Easter House started by Outer Eastern Institute of TAFE (Open Learning project) We were taken over by Swinburne Uni, so I published about 60 books in total for TAFE courses. When if came to writing for the communication skills module, Writing for the World Wide Web, the college insisted I take all URLs out of the manuscript (they were stable ones and the book would have contained a disclaimer and a CD to easily click on web resources) I was forced to abandon the CD in the book and not allowed to make a webpage in support of the text. It was published and it was crap, When it came time to making a new combined manual of all the Office Skills and accounting courses into a complete Windows software guide (instead of 20 single small titles) into one large book, I encountered a lot of opposition from the college (They thought windows would be the same forever, I accused my manager of being luddite like in his approach to publishing for IT courses. I could barely finish the project there was so much opposition. What I did produce by sweat and many arguments was a best selling text Stepping Through Office 97 by Gaulay and Flanders. With a Novelle Networking book I was abused because the book was delayed due to software updates. A friend has just complete a web design course at Bendigo TAFE, he had no idea how to edit HTML, he learnt a bit of Photoshop and Dreamweaver. All graphics and no HTML. I am a believer that TAFE supports competency based training. If you can demonstrate a skill you can get course credits. Therefore, almost all members of this group could with a few $$, a lot of paperwork and some assessments, qualify for a TAFE Certificate in some web related courses. Unfortunately HTML validity and accessibility or even legal compliance does not seem to be taught from my second-hand knowledge of current TAFE courses. Industry professionals will have little chance of dragging TAFE courses into the present, so I believe it is really up-to you few influential TAFE teachers who do know about standards to strongly advocate for change. I am not sure about an association with a commercial company which charges a membership fee, but whose home page seems to be IMHO less than perfect. Tim On 29/01/2007, at 11:59 AM, Kay Smoljak wrote: On 1/29/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so how do we help the lecturers??? Is giving them links and offering services as a guest lecturer help? Would not this undermind the old practices that they teach??? Port80/AWIA (http://www.port80.asn.au) is speaking with two TAFEs in Perth about bringing the skills of their lecturers up to date - recommendations for professional development and mentoring are two things that have been suggested. It's early days yet, but I think it's a great example of what can be done when organisations actually sit down and talk to each other, and what we do will hopefully become a model and case study for other states in Australia. We have a TAFE lecturer who is heavily involved with course development on the committee and she's leading the charge. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
On 1/29/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is the only way it is going to happen if you actually get lecturers willing in their own time to learn and implement the standards into the courses. From my experience majority of the lecturers ive meet would not do that! Actually, the whole point of these discussions is that the changes are coming from the top - the course material is being changed (changes coming in this year) and the lecturers are *required* to get their skills up to date in order to teach it. And it's not going to be an in their own time thing - it is part of their professional development. TAFEs in Western Australia are very concerned about teaching what the industry expects - and they realise that in the field of IT they are being left behind. I know it's not happening everywhere, but my example shows a small area where things are being improved. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Its good to see it happening in WA, seeing we are the best state and now we can set standards for the whole world :P How about the WAs unis?? On 1/29/07, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know it's not happening everywhere, but my example shows a small area where things are being improved. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
On 1/29/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re http://www.port80.asn.au http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.port80.asn.au%2F A missing paragraph tag, a small error It passes S.508 tests with Cynthia! Fails AAA testing Thanks Tim for the heads up. The web site is currently being redeveloped for the new name change, but I will make sure someone gets onto that missing paragraph tag as soon as possible :) I am not likely to pay $150 to join it.. Our members join for the events we put on - monthly networking events (currently held in Perth, Melbourne and Canberra), regular speaking events, and the WA Web Awards - and to help further improve representation for our industry in Australia. It's true that our website, which is from 2003 or thereabouts, is not a great advertisement for the things we do, which is why it is shortly being relaunched. My experience of TAFE publishing are not positive and I do not think they can cope with rapid change. My past experience is similar to yours... but over the past year or two, I've been asked to participate several times in industry forums for local TAFE colleges, where they ask for feedback and direction on their courses/quality of graduates. The meetings that we're scheduling are in a similar vein. The TAFEs seem to understand that they need to move fast to keep up with industry and that they're falling behind. I think it's a challenge for them, but if they're willing to try then I don't see the harm in helping them. In fact as part of any industry association I think it's our duty to help them in any way we can. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
On 1/29/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its good to see it happening in WA, seeing we are the best state and now we can set standards for the whole world :P LOL, that's what we do, lead the charge... :) How about the WAs unis?? We have close ties with Edith Cowan University and contacts with both UWA and Curtin, although they don't do as much web development I don't think. We're trying to get them involved as well. We basically want to convert the entire education section in WA to standards compliance :) -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Why are you the best state? Are we not all Australians, pride cometh before a fall:-) Can you afford a membership fee to be part of the W3C. Sorry WA I reckon the standards are set internationally, but go WA TAFE anyway. Is your TAFE under pressure to provide fee for service to get as many private IT contracts as possible? Victorian TAFE and Swinburne esp. are starved of funding, in my experience. Tim On 29/01/2007, at 1:04 PM, Jermayn Parker wrote: Its good to see it happening in WA, seeing we are the best state and now we can set standards for the whole world :P How about the WAs unis?? On 1/29/07, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know it's not happening everywhere, but my example shows a small area where things are being improved. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
On 1/29/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why are you the best state? Are we not all Australians, pride cometh before a fall:-) That *was* a joke. Being so large but so terribly far away, we're a bit funny over here :) Can you afford a membership fee to be part of the W3C. What's that cost these days? As far as I understood it, that was targeted at mega-corporations... Is your TAFE under pressure to provide fee for service to get as many private IT contracts as possible? Victorian TAFE and Swinburne esp. are starved of funding, in my experience. To be honest I really don't know. I imagine it's largely the same Australia-wide. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Last time I checked it was about $10,000 US to get in the front door A .edu discount? Go WA Tim On 29/01/2007, at 1:49 PM, Kay Smoljak wrote: On 1/29/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why are you the best state? Are we not all Australians, pride cometh before a fall:-) That *was* a joke. Being so large but so terribly far away, we're a bit funny over here :) Can you afford a membership fee to be part of the W3C. What's that cost these days? As far as I understood it, that was targeted at mega-corporations... Is your TAFE under pressure to provide fee for service to get as many private IT contracts as possible? Victorian TAFE and Swinburne esp. are starved of funding, in my experience. To be honest I really don't know. I imagine it's largely the same Australia-wide. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Why are you the best state? Cos WA produces nearly 40% of Australia's export revenue - more than NSW and Victoria combined (and with only 10% of the population). -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Jermayn Parker wrote: I read this discussion and I think it's strange. The universitys and tafes are usually taught by lecturers who have no formal understanding or knowledge themselves about web standards etc. But there are many practitioners out there doing fantastic things without formal knowledge either. Formal here I have taken to mean tertiary courses in the area. Formal knowledge in a realm so new isn't that important - yet. It also is hard for them to change the content of their units as they usually get revised every 5 odd years, also the lecturers are not paid for study and revising the units, they only get paid for class time. So why should they do extra unpaid work for ungrateful students??? In the realm of science, things are updated all the time. This is the norm and is expected. Science university courses are frequently re-written. It is also the norm that lecturers are expected to revise and update the course as when needed. It's part of their job. University educators are expected to do research as well, as well as keep up their professional habits of continually updating themselves. So they *should* be up to date. If they are not, then perhaps it is us who has somehow failed them in helping to update them. We need to find out how we have failed them, and how we can best help them to stay at the fore-front. But the strangest thing of all is this: In this debate, we totally write off current practitioners who are in the field today, as though they were a lost cause. Can you imagine if the medical or law fraternity made a decision like this? We may still have trepanning! Or doctors recommending smoking for relaxation ;) As web developers, information architects and designers, we should have the skills amongst ourselves to be able to profile who it is we want to target, how to best target them, and bring them into the standards fold. This is hard for us to do on an individual level. What we lack is a professional body that is strong to enough to want to promote professional habits of up-skilling to all Web Industry Professionals, through various methods. I have a lot of hope that WIPA will fill this void. btw incase your wondering im not a lecturer - lol... I have raised this issue with my previous lecturers and they informed me of these government standards on lecturers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/01/2007 10:02:12 am Doesn't the ACS (In Australia) claim to be our peek standards body? (Also assuming that Web Dev comes under the Computing banner). Wouldn't they (or somebody like them) be the ones to issue a certificate? (One look at their web site will tell you how seriously they take web standards.) The attitude seems to be that web development isn't real IT. The funny thing is that people in the webby area also seem to feel this way. I brought this up on another list and quite a few were adamant that an IT professional was one that hooked up networks. To me, an IT person is someone who can work with either information or computer systems, from either the technical or human standpoint. That would then include web developers, information architects, usability consultants, and many other titles of those who work with the web. WIPA should take this up with the ACS and get some recognition! :) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Ben Buchanan wrote: I strongly suspect the usable = ugly myth is perpetuated by design firms that don't feel like updating their skills; and don't want their clients to get a clue and go elsewhere. So they spread misinformation so everyone has an excuse to keep doing the same old thing. Right right right. For me it's not hard to attribute this to the character of individual 'designers'. Some of them are designers and some of them are coders. The majority of them are coders. Graphic communications and formal writing are well-established crafts that can conceivably be far more stringent than the full set of w3-backed standards to a person with no visual or literary sensibilities at all. I am forever seeing sites of seamlessly blissful clarity turn to fetid soup when I open up the source, and likewise the elite standardista's site often has to be forgiven its childish aesthetics and perceived semantics because of its very neatly arranged code (and the fact it runs on every system within a mile). I seriously believe it is down to individuals as such - even in teams, the leadership will say Who cares about this invalid code that needs fixing? You could be doing much better stuff, it already works great or I don't have time for you to re-design the third level navigation, it exists and it's in a logical place in the source. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Ben Buchanan wrote: It's a persistent misconception that accessibility has anything to do with the design. We all have to educate clients on this point and hope the message gets out there. Ben... You must elaborate loads on that. If you're saying that a site, no matter how terribly designed, is still possible to navigate and extract information on as a yes no answer, then your comment stands. But I'm afraid you're suggesting something else. 'Nothing to do with'... My every single design decision is based on accessibility. Perhaps I have something revelatory to learn? Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
I was enjoying this little discussion so i decided to put together some of our points and views in my blog http://germworks.net/blog/2007/01/26/attention-web-lecturers im updating it at the moment so please bear with any little problems. On 1/25/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a lecturer turned practitioner, I can completely support Jermayns' comments. One of the hardest things in teaching web development is finding decent text books. By the time most get into print, they are already 2 years out of date. And few come close to standards based development. I'm sure there are more than a few texts still in circulation which heartily advocate the FONT tag. If academics could be helped to understand, or pointed at good resources, as Ben suggests, this would go a long way towards helping the next generation of developers do the right thing. It's all about education. Lucien. On 25/1/07 12:50 PM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also think schools are an area that needs a shake up. at my uni they were still teaching inline style sheets and tablular layout in first and second year I think this is a key issue for the industry. Realistically we're not going to eradicate non-standards shops, nor are we about to get clients to suddenly recognise certification etc. What we can do is focus on winning over lecturers - probably by offering to help them! There are precious few standards-based beginner tutorials out there. I regularly see threads asking for them, but can't recall a really good one to send... although I think someone was writing one? Methodology and habit start forming at university - if we can catch incoming developers at that level, there'll be a very positive flow-on effect. A big part of it would be to stop people treating web as an add-on to programming courses (literally covered in a lecture or two); or treated as part of art/multimedia courses (which often means being taught to create flash). It needs to be taught as a serious discipline. I don't see why you couldn't teach students the basics in a semester. Get the foundations in - semantics, structure, basic accessibility and usability, XHTML, basic CSS. Then have further units on advanced layout, progressive enhancement and so on. cheers, Ben -- Lucien Stals Web Developer Academic Development and Support Phone +61 3 9214 4474 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Education is only the beginning. Let's get on with it. Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
No need to apologise mate. I understand why you get angry as myself I agree that people should not make excusses for On 1/26/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Russ, the group and teachers, it was a knee jerk mental response to make that unfair statement about teachers generally. I did not stop to think that there are great teachers on this group who can do. Sorry. I get frustrated when people make excuses for not Validating when they ignore professional standards or the Trade Practices Act even. Perhaps I raise my voice too often as I feel none is listening. I am more inclined to political action than whispering. Sorry group I will tone my enthusiasm down or express myself more eloquently. Tim The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
It's a persistent misconception that accessibility has anything to do with the design. We all have to educate clients on this point and hope the message gets out there. Ben... You must elaborate loads on that. If you're saying that a site, no matter how terribly designed, is still possible to navigate and extract information on as a yes no answer, then your comment stands. But I'm afraid you're suggesting something else. I probably should have been a bit clearer. What I meant was that good design can be put online in an accessible manner; or to put it the other way around an accessible design can be as creative and gorgeous as you want it to be. There's a misconception that accessible sites have to look like useit.com*, which is silly. Useit.com is ugly because it's ugly, not because it's accessible. I strongly suspect the usable = ugly myth is perpetuated by design firms that don't feel like updating their skills; and don't want their clients to get a clue and go elsewhere. So they spread misinformation so everyone has an excuse to keep doing the same old thing. So you're right, accessibility (and usability) and design should be considered together. But accessibility does not place any serious restrictions on design, so long as you work with accessibility in mind. Accessibility only causes serious disruption when it wasn't considered all the way through, then someone is asked to retrofit accessibility features - usually with two days to go-live. cheers, Ben * I am nicking an anecdote from Cheryl Lead here! :) -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
So would making web designers get a certificate of some kind fix this problem?? The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Accessibility is/should be a way of life for anyone building websites. I don't care to hear the inevitable but that's the way the client wants it - does a doctor give a patient morphine for a burst appendix, because that's what the patient wants, for the pain to go away? No. If you consider yourself a web professional, you have a duty (in my view) to point out to the client that an inaccessible website is the wrong thing to do. It's a persistent misconception that accessibility has anything to do with the design. We all have to educate clients on this point and hope the message gets out there. I periodically wish Jakob Nielsen's site wasn't so ugly, since some people think that's an exemplar site... The architectural analogy highlights the key problem in the web industry: there's no accreditation, no real accountability. A few lawsuits do not take the place of real enforcement of standards. If a building doesn't meet the building code, then heads roll and the building is changed to meet requirements. If a website is inaccessible, the people who did it are rarely punished in any form. Anyway... I believe as web professionals we should build to standards whether the client asks for/understands it or not. If that means we charge more than a tag soup+tables shop, so be it. You get what you pay for in print, same goes for web. It's a personal integrity thing. I guess if someone offered me millions to hack out tables, I'd probably cave... but it really would have to be a *lot* of money :) ...and even then I'd try to talk them out of tables. Someone's suggestion about a legal waiver isn't such a bad idea - that might at least get their attention! cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
On 25/01/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would making web designers get a certificate of some kind fix this problem?? Not if it existed out there all on its own. I think for it to have any real effect, it would have to be backed by some sort of governing body and probably have some sort of legal standing as well. Medical practitioners must be certified and registered, or they can't legally practise medicine (in a lot of countries, anyway). Unless you did something similar for web developers, I really don't see how it would take. The problem isn't just coming up with an exam and a certificate. The problem is you have to have businesses believing that it is a MUCH better idea to hire somebody with that certificate than someone without, even if that someone else is charging half the price. Otherwise, the bottom line will win out every time. That's my take on the matter, anyway ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
I agree w3c and these other groups are not going to acheive it on their own I also think schools are an area that needs a shake up. at my uni they were still teaching inline style sheets and tablular layout in first and second year [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/01/2007 9:31 am On 25/01/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would making web designers get a certificate of some kind fix this problem?? Not if it existed out there all on its own. I think for it to have any real effect, it would have to be backed by some sort of governing body and probably have some sort of legal standing as well. Medical practitioners must be certified and registered, or they can't legally practise medicine (in a lot of countries, anyway). Unless you did something similar for web developers, I really don't see how it would take. The problem isn't just coming up with an exam and a certificate. The problem is you have to have businesses believing that it is a MUCH better idea to hire somebody with that certificate than someone without, even if that someone else is charging half the price. Otherwise, the bottom line will win out every time. That's my take on the matter, anyway ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
very good jermayn!! most people don't place any value in a job done correctly (payers and payees alike). how much does it cost and can you do it on time? i would say that most to all of the members of this organization (wsg) are dedicated to the proposition that all web sites are not created equal and somehow sites they create are better built than the average site. professionalism, defined by most governments and organizations, means you earn more than 50% of your income through the endeavor. bunk! most designers don't give a rat's ass what we talk about and try to accomplish with the work we do. most designers don't give a rat's ass to educating themselves with the requirements (professional and governmental) of this profession. duh, i got dreamweaver and i can drag and drop, i'm a web designer. oh, i hate it when i make a statement like that, it hurts so much, but the truth sometimes hurts. i have looked at some web sites of local businesses where i live and the designer used frames. i talked with a potential client about this problem and how there web visibility would be greatly enhanced by removing their site from frames. well, the local computer tech and a girl in the office are working together on the project in their spare time. there is html for frames and a table on the page. there's no doctype so the html doesn't validate; a certificate wouldn't help here. i digressed. certification is only as good as the dedication is to what you do. education can improve one's dedication, but when you have to make the buck, dinar, ruble or what ever, you better have an indemnity clause in your contract so you can keep whatever monies you are paid if the corner-cutting client gets sued. dwain On 1/24/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would making web designers get a certificate of some kind fix this problem?? -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Doesn't the ACS (In Australia) claim to be our peek standards body? (Also assuming that Web Dev comes under the Computing banner). Wouldn't they (or somebody like them) be the ones to issue a certificate? (One look at their web site will tell you how seriously they take web standards.) What about all the Uni's and various training centres offering certificates in one thing or another. But then how many web developers have ever actually studied web development specifically? It's something most people learn on the job. As long as there is no accountability in the industry, we can cry all we like about certification and standards, but the tag soup+tables shops, as Ben said, will always underbid us, and get the jobs. They just don't care, and there's no reason for them too. They aren't accountable. Lucien. On 25/1/07 11:31 AM, Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25/01/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would making web designers get a certificate of some kind fix this problem?? Not if it existed out there all on its own. I think for it to have any real effect, it would have to be backed by some sort of governing body and probably have some sort of legal standing as well. Medical practitioners must be certified and registered, or they can't legally practise medicine (in a lot of countries, anyway). Unless you did something similar for web developers, I really don't see how it would take. The problem isn't just coming up with an exam and a certificate. The problem is you have to have businesses believing that it is a MUCH better idea to hire somebody with that certificate than someone without, even if that someone else is charging half the price. Otherwise, the bottom line will win out every time. That's my take on the matter, anyway ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Lucien Stals Web Developer Academic Development and Support Phone +61 3 9214 4474 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Education is only the beginning. Let's get on with it. Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
The universitys and tafes are usually taught by lecturers who have no formal understanding or knowledge themselves about web standards etc. It also is hard for them to change the content of their units as they usually get revised every 5 odd years, also the lecturers are not paid for study and revising the units, they only get paid for class time. So why should they do extra unpaid work for ungrateful students??? btw incase your wondering im not a lecturer - lol... I have raised this issue with my previous lecturers and they informed me of these government standards on lecturers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/01/2007 10:02:12 am Doesn't the ACS (In Australia) claim to be our peek standards body? (Also assuming that Web Dev comes under the Computing banner). Wouldn't they (or somebody like them) be the ones to issue a certificate? (One look at their web site will tell you how seriously they take web standards.) What about all the Uni's and various training centres offering certificates in one thing or another. But then how many web developers have ever actually studied web development specifically? It's something most people learn on the job. As long as there is no accountability in the industry, we can cry all we like about certification and standards, but the tag soup+tables shops, as Ben said, will always underbid us, and get the jobs. They just don't care, and there's no reason for them too. They aren't accountable. Lucien. On 25/1/07 11:31 AM, Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25/01/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So would making web designers get a certificate of some kind fix this problem?? Not if it existed out there all on its own. I think for it to have any real effect, it would have to be backed by some sort of governing body and probably have some sort of legal standing as well. Medical practitioners must be certified and registered, or they can't legally practise medicine (in a lot of countries, anyway). Unless you did something similar for web developers, I really don't see how it would take. The problem isn't just coming up with an exam and a certificate. The problem is you have to have businesses believing that it is a MUCH better idea to hire somebody with that certificate than someone without, even if that someone else is charging half the price. Otherwise, the bottom line will win out every time. That's my take on the matter, anyway ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Lucien Stals Web Developer Academic Development and Support Phone +61 3 9214 4474 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Education is only the beginning. Let's get on with it. Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
I also think schools are an area that needs a shake up. at my uni they were still teaching inline style sheets and tablular layout in first and second year I think this is a key issue for the industry. Realistically we're not going to eradicate non-standards shops, nor are we about to get clients to suddenly recognise certification etc. What we can do is focus on winning over lecturers - probably by offering to help them! There are precious few standards-based beginner tutorials out there. I regularly see threads asking for them, but can't recall a really good one to send... although I think someone was writing one? Methodology and habit start forming at university - if we can catch incoming developers at that level, there'll be a very positive flow-on effect. A big part of it would be to stop people treating web as an add-on to programming courses (literally covered in a lecture or two); or treated as part of art/multimedia courses (which often means being taught to create flash). It needs to be taught as a serious discipline. I don't see why you couldn't teach students the basics in a semester. Get the foundations in - semantics, structure, basic accessibility and usability, XHTML, basic CSS. Then have further units on advanced layout, progressive enhancement and so on. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
As a lecturer turned practitioner, I can completely support Jermayns' comments. One of the hardest things in teaching web development is finding decent text books. By the time most get into print, they are already 2 years out of date. And few come close to standards based development. I'm sure there are more than a few texts still in circulation which heartily advocate the FONT tag. If academics could be helped to understand, or pointed at good resources, as Ben suggests, this would go a long way towards helping the next generation of developers do the right thing. It's all about education. Lucien. On 25/1/07 12:50 PM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also think schools are an area that needs a shake up. at my uni they were still teaching inline style sheets and tablular layout in first and second year I think this is a key issue for the industry. Realistically we're not going to eradicate non-standards shops, nor are we about to get clients to suddenly recognise certification etc. What we can do is focus on winning over lecturers - probably by offering to help them! There are precious few standards-based beginner tutorials out there. I regularly see threads asking for them, but can't recall a really good one to send... although I think someone was writing one? Methodology and habit start forming at university - if we can catch incoming developers at that level, there'll be a very positive flow-on effect. A big part of it would be to stop people treating web as an add-on to programming courses (literally covered in a lecture or two); or treated as part of art/multimedia courses (which often means being taught to create flash). It needs to be taught as a serious discipline. I don't see why you couldn't teach students the basics in a semester. Get the foundations in - semantics, structure, basic accessibility and usability, XHTML, basic CSS. Then have further units on advanced layout, progressive enhancement and so on. cheers, Ben -- Lucien Stals Web Developer Academic Development and Support Phone +61 3 9214 4474 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Education is only the beginning. Let's get on with it. Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
One of the hardest things in teaching web development is finding decent text books. By the time most get into print, they are already 2 years out of date. And few come close to standards based development. I'm sure there are more than a few texts still in circulation which heartily advocate the FONT tag. At the moment I think the way to go would be to use web resources rather than wait on a textbook. That way there isn't such a lead time so they should be more up to date. Plus the students don't have to pay for yet another textbook :) If academics could be helped to understand, or pointed at good resources, as Ben suggests, this would go a long way towards helping the next generation of developers do the right thing. There are so many challenges to motivate lecturers though - they have a big enough workload as it is, so convincing them to change lecture material they've used for years can be tough. Not to mention the long lead time on changing course structure, syllabus etc. Even a highly motivated academic could be hamstrung by procedure. I wonder if guest lectures could be a way to go - eg. contact unis to get them in touch with local standards professionals. That would have the added benefit of industry contact for the university's marketing documents ;) It's all about education. So very true. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Ben Buchanan wrote: One of the hardest things in teaching web development is finding decent text books. By the time most get into print, they are already 2 years out of date. And few come close to standards based development. I'm sure there are more than a few texts still in circulation which heartily advocate the FONT tag. Mind you the lag time of most books has now dropped to a few months from final to publishing. So they aren't that much out of date. It used to be disgusting. There are so many challenges to motivate lecturers though - they have a big enough workload as it is, so convincing them to change lecture material they've used for years can be tough. Not to mention the long lead time on changing course structure, syllabus etc. Even a highly motivated academic could be hamstrung by procedure. This usually a major cause of the lack of up to date courses I wonder if guest lectures could be a way to go - eg. contact unis to get them in touch with local standards professionals. That would have the added benefit of industry contact for the university's marketing documents ;) Guest Lectures (or semi guest for 4-6 weeks) are used by some of the Universities in Perth in the Marketing and Business Schools as it allows practicing professionals to impart the real stories and usable skills etc. They are usually a great success. I can't see why they wouldn't work for the Web Industry -- Gary Barber radharc http://manwithnoblog.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Web professionals are not doctors and doctors, in Australia at the very least, would have their licenses revoked if they did exactly what their patients asked them to do. Web professionals however have no licences and do not deal with life-threatening situations. The fact of the matter is if someone offered me thousands of dollars to implement a table-based layout that worked only on IE6, I'd happily do it (although I would probably still feel a little dirty). If however someone offered me thousands of dollars to produce a best-practice website, I'd feel incredibly guilt-ridden if I implemented a table-based layout that worked only on IE6. People are free to make (their own personal) terrible websites, and I will always defend their right to make terrible websites. If people require my services to make that terrible website of their dreams, I'm happy to go ahead and do it for a fee. People are free to chop their own leg off for no medical reason, and I will defend their right to do so. If however people require a doctor's services to chop their leg off, I think it's a good thing that the law forbids a doctor from doing so. On 1/24/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some of the comments on the AIMIA thread seem to indicate that the authors believe accessibility is solely about validation and testing, and that art is only about pretty pictures. I believe that both views are flawed. Accessibility is/should be a way of life for anyone building websites. I don't care to hear the inevitable but that's the way the client wants it - does a doctor give a patient morphine for a burst appendix, because that's what the patient wants, for the pain to go away? No. If you consider yourself a web professional, you have a duty (in my view) to point out to the client that an inaccessible website is the wrong thing to do. That doesn't mean it can't look good - isn't that what web standards are about? Creating pages that work for everybody and still satisfy an aesthetic viewpoint? I'm having trouble with the fact that we are even having this debate on such a list :-( regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Yes I need work as well, but I would have to warn a client in writing that I would proceed to make a website as specified unless they took the responsibility under the 1992 Discrimination Act. The doctor must do what is best practice evidence based medicine, not what the client wants. Web professionals have no certification, but they have many contractual legal responsibilities to clients in contract law and under the 1992 Act. The Olympics corporation was sued in Maguire v Sydney olympics, but it could have been the web design company. I personally believe a professional should have nothing to do with invalid HTML or inaccessible websites! In legal circles it would be lacking due diligence as the professional, a client is entitled to rely on your advice, yes I will make you that crap site, but sign here that I am exempt from supplying a best practice W3C validated 1992 Act Certified webpage and that I take no legal responsibility for making such inaccessible webpages! Show them the option of an accessible site, sell the benefits it has, increased SEO results, legal compliance, company reputation, etc. etc. If they still want crap tell them to buy a copy of Dreamweaver. if your client were later sued under 1992 Act, you could be the co-respondent and all that money you made and your possessions could be subject to an action against you. See the Gummerson case in the USA and Target case by the NFB. http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/USAweb.html#targetstore Even an uncertified web expert, must comply with contractual obligations of fitness for purpose, merchantable quality and Disability Discrimination laws. Tim On 24/01/2007, at 4:05 PM, Antonios Sarhanis wrote: Web professionals are not doctors and doctors, in Australia at the very least, would have their licenses revoked if they did exactly what their patien ts asked them to do. Web professionals however have no licences and do not deal with life-threatening situations. The fact of the matter is if someone offered me thousands of dollars to implement a table-based layout that worked only on IE6, I'd happily do it (although I would probably still feel a little dirty). If however someone offered me thousands of dollars to produce a best-practice website, I'd feel incredibly guilt-ridden if I implemented a table-based layout that worked only on IE6. People are free to make (their own personal) terrible websites, and I w ill always defend their right to make terrible websites. If people require my services to make that terrible website of their dr eams, I'm happy to go ahead and do it for a fee. People are free to chop their own leg off for no medical reason, and I will defend their right to do so. If however people require a doctor's services to chop their leg off, I think it's a good thing that the law forbids a doctor from doing so. On 1/24/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: authors believe accessibility is solely about validation and testing, and that art is only about pretty pictures. I believe that both views are flawed. Accessibility is/should be a way of life for anyone building websites. I don't care to hear the inevitable but that's the way the client wants it - does a doctor give a patient morphine for a burst appendix, because that's what the patient wants, for the pain to go away? No. If you consider yourself a web professional, you have a duty (in my view) to point out to the client that an inaccessible website is the wrong thing to do. That doesn't mean it can't look good - isn't that what web standards are about? Creating pages that work for everybody and still satisfy an aesthetic viewpoint? I'm having trouble with the fact that we are even having this debate on such a list :-( regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Yeah I totally agree. I seriously doubt there are architects writing into lists saying we have to design a building that is beautiful AND accessible; they just incorporate both into every design. Web should be the same, it should go without saying that it will be accessible and it should look as beautiful as if it wasn't coded specifically for accessibility. On 1/24/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some of the comments on the AIMIA thread seem to indicate that the authors believe accessibility is solely about validation and testing, and that art is only about pretty pictures. I believe that both views are flawed. Accessibility is/should be a way of life for anyone building websites. I don't care to hear the inevitable but that's the way the client wants it - does a doctor give a patient morphine for a burst appendix, because that's what the patient wants, for the pain to go away? No. If you consider yourself a web professional, you have a duty (in my view) to point out to the client that an inaccessible website is the wrong thing to do. That doesn't mean it can't look good - isn't that what web standards are about? Creating pages that work for everybody and still satisfy an aesthetic viewpoint? I'm having trouble with the fact that we are even having this debate on such a list :-( regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
