[LUTE] Re: Facsimiles
I think trying to make an argument that one form of tab. is better than another is both counter-productive and epistemologically unsound. The fact will in the end remain, that a serious Lute student will have to be at the least familiar with Italian, French and German tab (if not fluent) unless they find themselves in the unenviable position of having to trust on a third party to translate, one to the other, or do it themselves. Myself; I am not fluent in German tab but I can sight read both French and Italian equally well, or poorly depending on your assessment of my abilities. It is for this reason I believe it is best to learn as much as possible from facsimiles and or photo copies of original materials rather than depend on the work modern scholars, or publishers, who may or may not have supplied their opinions or rendered their own mistakes. Not to demean these efforts but to simply state that the original source is often better for educational purposes than the illuminated modern version. - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr Cc: 'Sean Smith' lutesm...@mac.com; 'lute-cs.dartmouth.edu' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Facsimiles A student should learn italian tab as soon as possible, too late they say, oh, I do prefer french tab...) I found it difficult to read both, and began with 'french-like' forms (French with numerals as well as french with letters). Each of the publishers had arguments for their form, all of them entirely rational, none of them conclusive. I find single-glyph symbols easier to work with, and since the number of frets obliges two-glyph symbols with numerals (eg, 14, 15 .. 25), but has single-glyph symbols in the alfabet, there is an argument which slightly favors the use of letters; but nothing really compelling to favor italian-ordered vs french-ordered layout. chacun à son goût... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HIP, was string tension of all things
Wow! A return to music performance relevance. I thought we were having a discussion on semantics and construction of the English language. - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 7:36 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: HIP, was string tension of all things To All: This is an interesting discussion, flavors of which have probably been regurgitated at least bi-annually on this list. I think we can agree that historically-informed performance loosely means that one has done a little background work to understand the music, and made an attempt to discover how the sounds may have been produced. Instrument setup and string material is a convenient place to stop for many in that background research. What seems to be lacking in many performances of old music is a sense of context. I know this is an 'old' article but I happen to like old things. Rob C. Wegman, a specialist in old music who possesses a gift for clear thinking and a knack for communicating his ideas, wrote a very provocative article in _Early Music_, Vol. 23, No. 2 (May, 1995), pp. 299-312, called Sense and Sensibility in Late-Medieval Music: Thoughts on Aesthetics and 'Authenticity'. It is mainly a discussion of Tinctoris and his pronouncements but is worth reading for many generic insights. For instance, he points out that old composers and theorists were silent on some frustratingly important interpretive considerations, and that we should be making an attempt to understand why they were silent (context) instead of spinning our wheels making every possible wrong assumption, hoping to arrive at some truth. Wegman also points out that musical aesthetics and even musicology were 19th century constructs. Rather than analyzing old music from an inappropriate 19th century point of view (as Haynes points out), we could spend a little more time reading and understanding poetry and literature of the era of interest. In order to understand performance of old music, which was mostly functional music, I think it helps to 1) kill your television, 2) slow down and walk where you need to go, 3) sing liturgical music in context, and 4) play in a dance band. Then think about strings. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:58:03 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: HIP, was string tension of all things I think if you had a genre that was called authentic, pure, literate, etc, for say, Jazz, you might annoy some people but most people would ignore you. If you said, hey that's not REALLY Jazz to someone after a concert, well, some more people might get annoyed. I think if you went to a rock concert and told everyone they were using the wrong strings and amp tube filaments you definitely would not be taken too seriously, but I bet there are some HIP beebop guitarists out there, or Django reconstructionists. And yes Hard Rock implies that it is well, harder. I'd add heavy metal to your list, BTW. The difference with informed is that there isn't really a sort of informed, whereas you can have classical rock, etc. It sounds a bit elitist to me as well, the whole informed thing. People already use the word purist to resist crossover forms, but I think most people would agree that there is a difference between that and soulless. As far a New Age, I think it does imply that it is a new age, lierally, just as Ars Nova did in the late middle ages and Nouvelle Cuisine did here in California--people were saying, hey this is new, novel, newer. Obviously, some of these terms amplify or qualify rather than contrast, Hard Rock is harder, but Rock is still Rock Hard; emo may have more emotion, not invent emotion; heavy metal is still metal, it's just heavy, not a slurpie. I'm not sure I understand the one about Gospel, but since Gospel in Old English means good news, a genre called bad news might be fun to listen to, especially if combined with old age. But the classical world is different. We raise funds, hold gala dinners, wear tails. Maybe we need some soul baroque. I still think the term Historically Informed Performance does not reflect well upon the movement. It's just an opinion, nothing more. Historically Inspired Performance seems better--more alive. I like Early Music because I grew up with it, and the magazine is one of the few classy mags left. I hope they don't change the name--it's terriffic. I think anyone who wants to use it should feel free to use it, I think we could find something better, and even if we can't, Historical Performance is marginally better, and on grammatical terra forma for sure. dt At 06:50 PM 3/27/2010, you wrote: Dear David, If you are so worried about
[LUTE] Re: HIP, was string tension of all things
I agreeI think. The snare for me is in having to accept the judgment of others that have through research and study come to the same conclusion that I came to without the research and study: We can only guess at how this music was played considering that none of us were around to hear it first hand. I don't begrudge the research and study but in the end should not the music be played musically, and as well as is humanly possible? Why should we settle for a sound that is akin to rubber bands stretched over a cigar box just because it is historically perfect---as far as we can determine. Much is said and debated about over strings; over-spun strings seeming to be the major casualty of this debate. Even when we have some sort of accurate idea of the materials in ancient strings we still do not know for certain the exact technology in manufacturing them. There fore we cannot possible know for sure what they sounded like. I was told at one time by another Lute maker that the finish Tielke (sp?) used on his instruments is unidentified and by modern standards, impervious. The fact remains: If our knowledge of a thing is only limited by existing literature and surviving examples then our opinions of afore mentioned things must of necessity be limited. We can make assumptions and even teach from the basis of those assumptions but in the end that is all we have---assumptions. Every thing about the Lute is based on our assumptions of how they were made, how they were strung and how they were played. However; the reason the Lute today has some sort of following is because someone took the time to find a way to get music out of the thing and played his/her heart out on it. - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] HIP, was string tension of all things Without wishing to offend or annoy anyone, I would advise against the use of the term HIP. There are reasons for and against, but I think the cons have it over the pros. The main reason not to use the phrase is that it is excruciatingly bad grammar. It makes us look bad. It is hard to imagine a group of any three words that have so many problems. Performance, of course, is not informed. People are informed. By extension, I concede the transfer to the action of the person:one can, of course, make an informed decision. Make takes on the temorary role of a stative verb. And one can have an informed opinion, again, there is an implied reference to the owner of the opinion. But can one make an informed performance? It is, I suppose, as E.B. White famously remarked, a matter of ear. Or possibly it is problematic in that there is no speaker--in a performance, there are many actors and events, it isn't just a person. Performance is also not historically--performance can be historic, but that means something very different. And performance is not historically informed, and neither are people. People are informed about history; they don't undergo a process of being informed that is historic, unless the process of learning is at a memorable occasion. It's cast in the passive. It has an undertone of fudgery with an overtone of elitism: After all, some performances must logically not be informed -so sad, if only the others read more! I'm sure the players of modern instruments, many of whom attended Conservatory, don't appreciate being the historically uninformed. There are other problems with the term as well; obviously people wanted more freedom to play how they wanted, with less emphasis on the authenticity aspect. But the result has been the recapitulate the last 200 years into twenty and give us quite a bit of modern blended in. On the plus side, HIP is hip, and anything like that is goodwho want to be unhip? Alas, even with Sting how hip can we be? It's like the Gollux in the Thurber's The Thirteen Clocks -It's always then; it's never now. If we want to be HIP, ditch the word history. Replace it with sex, food, clothes, designer drinks. There has to be a better word than history. So a new phrase, or live with the old one? I like Early Music performance-the term was reviled by many in the '70s, maybe there is something better. I have no problem with Historical Performance. It seems pretty descriptive. I like it more than when it surfaced as the title for EMA's magazine. Obviously authentic is a bad word to bandy about--implying that everything else is fake. But we can be historical without being authentic. Historical Performance-History is back, and this time It's Personal. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4978 (20100326) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information
[LUTE] Re: Amarilli
This is for dunces like me who have problems thinking about more than one thing at a time. The one thing that makes complex contrapuntal lines easy to manipulate on the Lute is the use of tablature (in my opinion). Now I know there are those out there that can recognize the counterpoint just by looking at the tab, and some of you can probably hear it as well. Because this is not true with me I must assume that there is one other dummy like me that usually has to play through something before gathering an understanding of what the piece is about, especially if I have never heard it. So---what does this mean? Tablature's magic is centered in its linear relationships. You can divide up the entire composition into vertical relationships clearly seen in the tablature, where it is possible to at the least get all of the notes in the right place at the right time, after which you can start getting your mind and understanding around the actual spirit of the music and not just the mechanics. When you add a voice, especially your own, instead of trying to sing the piece with all of its independent elements, and play the instrumental part with all of its independent elements and make them work together without short circuiting your brain, it is easier to learn your vocal part into the same vertical relationship with the music as the individual parts of the instrumental are to each other. In short, learn the mechanics first; then as the mechanics start to make sense the music will start to manifest itself. I suppose it could be called a cheater's method but it is the only way it works for me. - Original Message - From: Eleanor Smith s0347...@sms.ed.ac.uk To: probe...@acm.org; Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 4:45 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Amarilli My trick when accompanying myself singing is to get the vocal part learnt to the point where I no longer need the music or to concentrate that hard ... and then it's just my hands (in my case on a harpsichord) I need to worry about - having said that I often accompany myself when learning notes but usually at the piano where all note-bashing sins can be assisted by pedals! Best, Elly Hello. In addition to learning the lute, I have started formal vocal training. In choosing to sing Caccini I have hit the how do you play and sing at the same time? problem. Any cunning ideas? And when reading from a figured bass how dense is the chordal underlay? Less than with a separate Singer? Thanks Regards .. mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ms Eleanor Smith, MMus PhD Candidate: Organology University of Edinburgh c/o St Cecilia's Hall 220 Cowgate, Niddry Street Edinburgh EH1 1LJ -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4957 (20100319) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4957 (20100319) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience; those who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings. This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the Guitar. The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact point, in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute from this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and respond to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular attention, in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many occasions where I see the latter. - Original Message - From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; morgan cornwall mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca wrote: Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing the double courses simultaneously and without double striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you want to make your lute sound dull and rotten (Stobaeus) ;-) In all seriousness, I would advise you to give it a serious try. The touch and feel is considerably different than classical guitar style and you'll probably like it. The majority of ren. players obviously used this technique and the music they left to us responds well with it. Thumb-out can also be made to work and two strings can be simultaneously struck just as effectively as with thumb-under, but it is generally more appropriate for music c.1600 and later. Also, thumb-out is NOT the same as classical guitar technique: you'll have to spend a lot of time practicing real lute thumb-out. As the quote from Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the practitioners of thumb-out had a different tonal ideal in mind. Chris And thank you, Howard, for the comments. - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote: I would like to make the best use of the time I have. Given my circumstances, would you recommend that I learn thumb-under technique? Does it make more sense to use this technique from the start, or should I focus on the other aspects of lute technique? If I don't learn thumb-under from the get go, will this just be more to unlearn later? Should I not even worry about using thumb-under? I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400 years ago and my email archives don't go back that far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us. As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course together, which in turn involves striking the string from the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is, unless it's interfering with your fingers. My first lute teacher told me to try thumb-under for at least a week or so, mostly to get me doing something different from what I was used to, the theory being, I suppose, that doing something farthest removed from my established habits would minimize the transfer of lute-inappropriate technique to the lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4954 (20100318) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4954 (20100318) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: vance wood [3][16]vancew...@wowway.com To: Lute List [4][17]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience; those who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings. This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the Guitar. The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact point, in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute from this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and respond to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular attention, in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many occasions where I see the latter. - Original Message - From: [5][18]chriswi...@yahoo.com To: Lute List [6][19]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; howard posner [7][20]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; morgan cornwall [8][21]mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall [9][22]mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca wrote: Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing the double courses simultaneously and without double striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you want to make your lute sound dull and rotten (Stobaeus) ;-) In all seriousness, I would advise you to give it a serious try. The touch and feel is considerably different than classical guitar style and you'll probably like it. The majority of ren. players obviously used this technique and the music they left to us responds well with it. Thumb-out can also be made to work and two strings can be simultaneously struck just as effectively as with thumb-under, but it is generally more appropriate for music c.1600 and later. Also, thumb-out is NOT the same as classical guitar technique: you'll have to spend a lot of time practicing real lute thumb-out. As the quote from Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the practitioners of thumb-out had a different tonal ideal in mind. Chris And thank you, Howard, for the comments. - Original Message - From: howard posner [10][23]howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List [11][24]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote: I would like to make the best use of the time I have. Given my circumstances, would you recommend that I learn thumb-under technique? Does it make more sense to use this technique from the start, or should I focus on the other aspects of lute technique? If I don't learn thumb-under from the get go, will this just be more to unlearn later? Should I not even worry about using thumb-under? I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400 years ago and my email archives don't go back that far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us. As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course together, which in turn involves striking the string from the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is, unless it's interfering with your fingers. My first lute teacher
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
You could continue using Classical Guitar technique to begin with but you will have to concentrate on collapsing the first joint and striking both strings together. It is easier to do this with the thumb under but not impossible. - Original Message - From: morgan cornwall mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] should i learn thumb-under technique? Dear Individual and Collective Wisdom, I am an amateur guitarist of about 25 years. I play fingerstyle acoustic, electric, and classical guitar. Because of my other hobbies, such as gardening, I gave up playing with nails some years ago and strictly play with my fingertips. Last year I commissioned a 7-course student lute from Stephen Harris and Sandi Barber, and it is nearing completion. I intend to play renaissance music on this instrument. I have wanted a lute for many years so I am quite excited. From following this list, reading lute tutors, searching the internet, and watching footage of lute players I realize that there aren't strictly thumb-under and thumb-out techniques, but all the shades in between. Currently my technique is very rooted in classical guitar technique, and my thumb never crosses under my other fingers. I have limited time to devote to music, and limited time to devote to learning lute technique. I am not in a rush to learn how to play, but I would like to make the best use of the time I have. Given my circumstances, would you recommend that I learn thumb-under technique? Does it make more sense to use this technique from the start, or should I focus on the other aspects of lute technique? If I don't learn thumb-under from the get go, will this just be more to unlearn later? Should I not even worry about using thumb-under? Thank you in advance, morgan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4952 (20100317) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4952 (20100317) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lachrimae
Maybe we are seeing here what some of Dowland's contemporary critics meant when they remarked about Dowland's lousy counterpoint. Can it be that we are assuming that Dowland would not write in such a manner, ignoring the fact that indeed he did---on purpose? - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lachrimae On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:09 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: As printed in the Poulton edition, The fifths and direct octaves cross the bar, from G to D in the lowest sounding voices to E flat to B flat in the lowest sounding voices. I see, consecutive fifths between what I regard as bass and middle voice (altus/tenor) to bass and tenor, with the middle voice of the first chord clearly going to the altus of the second chord. I think we can agree to disagree on calling that a parallel fifth - we definitively went to different counterpoint classes - but if your ears perceive it such, so much the better for your ears. Mine are less well-attuned, I must confess. Your fix, replacing the b-flat by a g (second fret, fourth course) is elegant - and not more difficult - but I must say I like the stepwise motion of b-flat to c' to d' tenor line in the second measure, in imitation of what is happening in the middle voice of measure one. As you say, hearing counterpoint in lute writing can be a personal thing. But adding the g might have the best of both worlds: warmer chord, third to avoid attention to bare 5-8 sound, retaining stepwise tenor. I will try it for a while. Thanks for the clarification, anyway. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4892 (20100224) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4892 (20100224) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Viola-Matic
How about home defense? Remember El Kabong, the alter ego of Quick Draw McGraw? - Original Message - From: morgan cornwall mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:07 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Viola-Matic If you weigh this against all the appliances and gadgets it replaces, it's just the price of a few cups of coffee per day (for about 8 years). It probably could be used to grind beans as well. - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Viola-Matic To quote the director of the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra (who also works at a violin shop and used to play with Mannheim Steamroller), Actual current price for a Luis Clark carbon fiber viola: US$5,839.00! Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel F Heiman Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:22 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Viola-Matic Decidedly off-topic, but something to think about for folks performing under less than ideal weather conditions. With a matched set of fluorocarbon strings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf2w2zMNvzE *This is a real playable musical instrument.* (Not quite as inexpensive as the tag line suggests.) Daniel Heiman To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4793 (20100121) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4793 (20100121) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Can you define what you mean by sounding neither renaissance or baroque? This seems to me to open up a host of additional questions like how do we know what either actually sounded like? I don't want to seem argumentative in any way but what you are saying here is that there are three sounds at work: Renaissance, Baroque and Neither one. I am totally confused. When one considers that we can only speculate on the real nature of the instruments, strings and have questions about technique, how can we be sure what we do and what we here is authentic? The only guideline I can remember is from Dowland in Varietie of Lute Lessons where in it was said to play sweetly? You certainly fill that niche, playing sweetly. - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 6:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke It is very similar to a rest stroke, and yet very different. When using the two fingered graze, the fingers can either rest or brush against each other. Also, you can create the motion of the stroke without the ending, which can produce the same or similar sound--after the finger has left the string the sound is not affected. To my ear, most rest strokes sound neither renaissance nor baroque, and so I think the main thing to avoid is modern articulation. Of course that is subjective. dt At 05:32 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4787 (20100119) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4787 (20100119) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I speak only from my playing experience and from what I have read here and in a couple of old Lute sources. If the standard method of playing diminutions was to alternate between thumb and index finger (early to mid Sixteenth Century) then it is safe to assume that a thumb rest stroke is not only inconvenient but near impossible. If you are referring to Baroque Lute the technique probably became common when the instrument exceeded ten courses. - Original Message - From: nedma...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Thumb rest stroke I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
Actually;--- from one contemporary source, approximately twenty-years of effort on behalf of the Lute player. - Original Message - From: Benjamin Narvey luthi...@gmail.com To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Cc: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune? Hi Ed, It didn't seem to like the (very rare) dry weather in England when it was put under tension...the soundboard shrank due to the low humidity, and this caused the glue to give way, and the string tension did the rest Ouch. Just got word today that the repair is alomost done, so I'll swing past to pick it up in early February! Best wishes, B 2010/1/18 Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp: On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: The lute I was expecting to use exploded in the lute maker's workshop before I could pick it upbut that *is* another story Do tell! Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 Site web/Website: www.luthiste.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I don't see how that would be possible, there is nothing to rest against except the inside of the hand? - Original Message - From: terli...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a rest stroke being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the thumb came into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? Do we think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? Thanks, Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4784 (20100118) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I agree and I disagree: I agree that everyone who listens and watches a performance is qualified to make an assessment, but that can only go as far as their observation and appreciation of the music. When someone starts making critical comments about technique then I feel they must be able to demonstrate the proper way to do what they are being critical of. With our knowledge and research and application of what we believe to be historical technique, we are still only making logical assumptions on how-- they-- really played the instrument. I still say if you don't have the guts to put up your own performance on YouTube or some other public site, then your criticism, if it must be submitted, should be courteous at the least. - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall lauten...@lautenist.de To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I wonder what is the reason why many feel they would be capable to criticise on whatever is published. I really appreciate even harsh critics on my playing if it helps to develop (although sometimes it's hard to accept if someone criticises very basic features of my playing. But if there are reasons given it helps to improve and I consider it helpfull - at least after a while ) - but usually you only get comments with no substance and mostly written by people who don't dare to show their skills in public. Don't get me wrong: It's not necessary to play by yourself to write a critical comments but when someone starts being rude I feel it as an act of cowardry to hide oneself and your skills. If someone does show his skills and earns my respect it's much easier to accept harsh critics. Otherwise I take them as trolls. In my personal opinion everybody showing his playing on youtube, vimeo or whatever platform one might use has my respect - just for doing it. I tried it myself and find it much harder to perform on a video than to an audience. And I would second David's recommendation: Better to disable the comment-feature. It's not just because rude comments about your playing could be published, it could also be hurting just to read such bullshit for yourself. All the best Thomas David Tayler schrieb: Holy cow! dt At 11:18 AM 1/15/2010, you wrote: Ed, Right after I came out with my Hurel album, I received a private email from someone who regularly contributes to this list. This was one of the first comments I got about the project. In the rudest, most brusk manner, this person told me A) What an awful job I had done with the repertoire B) How could I be so thoughtless as to use synthetic strings? C) I was being irresponsible to the repertoire and instrument by even presuming to have such a wretched recording out there D) I should just hang it all up right then. This was from someone who was definitely informed about the lute, but constructive criticism it was not. Who knows? Maybe the guy was totally right about all those things, but he knew very well that I was a young guy and that this was my first recording. I knew that the album wasn't perfect, but felt that I had accomplished something just by doing it. Fortunately, it hasn't brought me to too many tears. (I wrote him back a message politely thanking him for his insights.) I don't believe this individual would have ever had the guts to make these statements in an educated public forum. I say again - for those who don't want negative comments on their videos, disable the comment feature on your account. (I believe so few do this because they secretly crave the positive comments.) If you do keep the comments, you have the option of deleting any you find offensive. Chris --- On Fri, 1/15/10, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote: From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: What makes a lute stay in tune?
I would say that would be the job of well made and well set pegs. An argument could be made for the actual strength of the Lute's construction, making the assumption that the entire instrument may shrink or expand with the level of humidity but I find this specious. Is staying in tune the sign of a good Lute? I would not make that judgment unless going out of tune was such a big issue you could hear the pegs slip during the night. - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] What makes a lute stay in tune? Ignoring for a moment the tuning instability of gut strings, what construction details make a lute stay in tune better? Is staying in tune a sign of a good lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4778 (20100116) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I suppose that if the recording is out there those who view it have a right to critique it. However; I think this should be shaded by whether or not the critic has had the guts to do the same and if they did would they feel the same way. To those of you who do put out performances on YouTube please don't stop, and to those of you who find it necessary to make negative and scathing reviews, while not putting their own work on YouTube there is an old saying: Put up or shut up. - Original Message - From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] constructive critical commentary About constructive critical commentary, as a multi Youtube recording luteninst, I know very well what's wrong in my videos, I'm working very hard to try do do better, and of course I accept criticism but very often I know the could be better points before being told by someone, and what I would need in fact is a (or many...) good master class(es) with some of the lute gods as Paul, Bob, Ron or Nigel (sorry I miss some other names but... List is long) So I don't wait any technical comment, but I'm always glad to answer to kind words people would spend time to write, even if it is not useful for my lute technic... And I'm afraid critical commentary sometimes posted are often not constructive, but acerb (then I'm sorry but I remove them at once ! Lol) So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love without pretention (I hope for my sake) I just got today a beautiful theorbo made by Didier Jarny, a small instrument for solo music (70cm/120cm) so now working on some Kapsberger's Canarios, and it is great fun ! V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de nedma...@aol.com Envoyé : dimanche 10 janvier 2010 22:55 À : franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk; edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; kidneykut...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata To repeat my comments to the group (since I replied privately inadvertently), I thought the music quite lovely, and very nicely played. Franz's point concerning the absence of constructive critical commentary may be pertinent. Since I'm working on Renaissance lute only, and am not familiar with Baroque lute literature or technique, I'll leave it to other Baroque players to consider Franz's point. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4759 (20100110) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4762 (20100111) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Unknown piece
If you are talking about DD211, sometimes called the Cambridge Manuscript odds are good it is one of the F.DaMilano Fantasias/Ricercares popular in England. It is most definitely a Fantasy, which in turn could be an intabulation of some chanson. - Original Message - From: Matteo Turri matteo.o.tu...@googlemail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 12:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Unknown piece Sorry, I should have added that it comes from the english repertoire M. On Tuesday 29 December 2009 00:36:55 Matteo Turri wrote: Hi Listers, can anybody tell me the title of this piece: http://sites.google.com/site/dnflclivlianvspfavg/home/temp/unknown.mp3 Many thanks in advance Matteo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4725 (20091229) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4725 (20091229) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Unknown piece
I can only offer opinion at this point not as yet having had time to ferret out the piece from the copies of English Manuscripts I have. It is a fact that many of F. DaMilano's compositions found their way into English anthologies such as DD211 and a couple of others. They were of course anglicized in ornamentation but they are Milano's in any case. Does this make them English? No. They are Italian but that does not mean they cannot be found in English sources. In answer to the original question as to what title the piece has; the answered would be none. Very few Fantasias were titled except in cases where the fantasia was based on a known chanson. - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Unknown piece Dear Matteo, Please could you tell us where the music comes from? How do you know it is English? Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matteo Turri Sent: 29 December 2009 05:49 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Unknown piece Sorry, I should have added that it comes from the english repertoire M. On Tuesday 29 December 2009 00:36:55 Matteo Turri wrote: Hi Listers, can anybody tell me the title of this piece: http://sites.google.com/site/dnflclivlianvspfavg/home/temp/unknown.mp3 Many thanks in advance Matteo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4726 (20091229) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4726 (20091229) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Unknown piece
I still hold to my opinion; it is an untitled Fantasia, probably by Milano form the Cambridge Manuscript?. You are correct about the Pavan. This piece does not start out like any Pavan I know of, it starts like a Fantasia, a Milano Fantasia. You might want to write to the artists that put together this CD and see if they know, or if they will tell. - Original Message - From: Matteo Turri matteo.o.tu...@googlemail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Unknown piece The piece comes from the following CD: Rosamund Lute Music Fred Edgar Gilbert Independent Artist Guild VT22560 with music of Dowland, Holborne, Rosseter, Ferrabosco, Daniel, Cutting, Marchant, Bacheler. - english repertoire. Track 18- the piece in question - is entitled Anonymous: Pavan, Ann Markham's However, Ann Markham's Pavan is a piece by Cutting - the score is here: http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Cutting/pdf/markham's_pavan.pdf which does not match the piece in the CD. So, I was just wondering where does this piece come from ... M. On Tuesday 29 December 2009 21:18:48 Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Matteo, Please could you tell us where the music comes from? How do you know it is English? Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matteo Turri Sent: 29 December 2009 05:49 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Unknown piece Sorry, I should have added that it comes from the english repertoire M. On Tuesday 29 December 2009 00:36:55 Matteo Turri wrote: Hi Listers, can anybody tell me the title of this piece: http://sites.google.com/site/dnflclivlianvspfavg/home/temp/unknown.mp3 Many thanks in advance Matteo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4726 (20091229) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4726 (20091229) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Unknown piece
It sounds very much like something Milan would have written. I would have liked to have heard the rest of it, the only way to be sure. It was probably written around 1535 or there about. F.DaMilano is also an outside possibility due to the contrapuntal structure but again the sample is too small. I am sure someone here is familiar with it. - Original Message - From: Matteo Turri matteo.o.tu...@googlemail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 6:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Unknown piece Hi Listers, can anybody tell me the title of this piece: http://sites.google.com/site/dnflclivlianvspfavg/home/temp/unknown.mp3 Many thanks in advance Matteo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4723 (20091228) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4723 (20091228) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up.
This discussion is probably more hypothetical than objective, being determined by the individual player more than an over all axiom. I think that the actual effort of warming up the hands plays a dual purpose; that of warming up the focus. As the hands become mobile the mind becomes more intent on the labor. As the mind becomes more intent on the labor and focused on the music the hands become less tense and more in harmony with the mind. If your mind is wandering to the itch in your back side your hands are less with what your mind is doing or wanting to do. I know that is a crude metaphor but it does demonstrate what I believe is the occasion to double mindedness where the total commitment of the mind hinders the commitment of the hands. - Original Message - From: Suzanne and Wayne angevin...@att.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Physiology of being warmed up. In my opinion, its definitely not just in the brain. If I try to play early in the morning, even after I've had my caffeine, the fingers of both hands just don't work all that well. By the afternoon the brain may be sluggish and in need of a nap, but the fingers are warm and much more capable. Of course you need both the mental and finger facility. But clearly warmed up fingers is really a physical thing. Suzanne Since being warmed up is a major part of lute playing, I wonder whether anyone knows about the physiology of being warmed up? Is being warmed up in the brain? In the muscles? In the spinal cord? Can one learn not to need it? Can drugs help? Is it related to the distinction between short-term memory and long-term memory? What everyday lute playing wisdom might shed light on the question? Etc. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4707 (20091221) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4707 (20091221) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
That's really the only problem with this musical list; snobbery. Not everyone who plays the Lute, or wants to play the Lute is a purist. Some people play just because they enjoy it knowing full well that they will never make a profession of it. This kind of attitude simply turns off those people investigating whether or not they actually want to go to the trouble of learning how to play the Lute. Unless it is the desire of some, that the Lute once more falls into obscurity it is our job to, at the least, not to turn these people away. - Original Message - From: Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; terli...@aol.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte __ ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. I want to respect you, Roman - I do! I read your posts with interest and even glance at your neo-baroque compositions from time to time. But then you make some knuckle-dragger type statement like that and I'm back to square one. I suppoes it's natural to resent a more succesful, wealthier, and more accomplished cousin - but can't you keep that resentment off of the list? Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4703 (20091220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4703 (20091220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]
That was very nice, beautiful, clean and without pretension. I'm glad you took the time to put this together. - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:11 AM Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] To All: After spending insane hours dedicated to house-building in a mad attempt to beat the snow and frozen ground, and the usual spate of December gigs, we took the time to make a new video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT4PLrF0utc This is a performance of Mignonne allons voir si la rose from the poetry of Pierre Ronsard, also recorded on our CD Divine Amarillis. The original is found only as a single melody line in Jehan Chardavoine's _Recueil de chansons en forme de voix de ville_ (1576). The engaging melody has often been performed with a drone, unison doubling or simple arpeggio accompaniment. In searching for a more interesting mode of performance, we looked to contemporary settings of Ronsard's poetry, and in particular, settings by Adrian Le Roy. We discovered that the tune works with only minor adjustments to Le Roy's Passemeze harmonization and, since LeRoy set several other poems by Ronsard in a similar manner, we feel our setting is historically justifiable. Happy Christmas to all. Ron Donna [1]www.mignarda.com __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [2]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://www.mignarda.com/ 2. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4703 (20091220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4703 (20091220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria
I was not referring to intentional fraud but if he is using the site to make contacts, contract instruments, and take payment for the same but knows that he is either unable or unwilling to deliver a finished product, then it is fraud none the less. If the contact numbers on his site are active, for the purpose of generating business, but he becomes un-reachable when questions arise as to when an instrument will be completed it is fraud. It passes the duck test: If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's a duck. If he is not resolving old issues where he has an obligation with funds received for work not completed but is accepting new business it may not be fraud but a good prosecutor could make that argument stick. If at any time he has used the mail system in his communications then he has an even deeper problem. If someone knows this man they should let him know that if he does not make an effort to resolve some of these issues one or more of these unrequited clients could cause him a great deal of grief. - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria I don't know, but I really don't think your speculation of active, deliberate fraud is accurate Vance. I took another look at the website, it lists two forms of contact, telephone, and email. there is no information about terms or any means to detail an order. Yes, prices are listed, being several years stale they become more and more enticing. I dont consider the website to be indicitive of fraud in any way. I also noted something else while in google. LF has a day job. Hanover Brazil is an import/export company with offices in the US and Brazil. one of several products they handle is CITES-blessed Rosewood (cut before the ban in 1991). LF is pictured (holding a vihuela) and mentioned as a staffmember. Perhaps an exchange could be worked out for those willing to take Rosewood in trade? I note that the company has a US office where some wood is kept. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria
Howard: I am not ruining his reputation, or any of the people who have purchased instruments from him, He has done it to himself by not communicating and by accepting new business while these more pressing issue are left outstanding. It is at the least unethical, and illegal. You can say it is not fraud but you do not have to be a con man, intentionally perpetrating a fraud to commit fraud. Just like you do not have to be a serial murderer to commit murder, or a thief to steal. - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:45 AM, Ron Fletcher wrote: It is better to know the truth than to ruin this man's reputation as a good luthier by speculation and hearsay. The truth, according to several list members who say they have personal knowledge, is that Faria is long overdue in making instruments and is not communicating with customers whose money he has taken. This may destroy his reputation, but is certainly not speculation or hearsay. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria
Howard: With all due respects I sent your post along with my response to it; see below. However; that in itself is not important. The opinions are my own you only made a remark that spawned my remarks. Your words: It is better to know the truth than to ruin this man's reputation as a good luthier by speculation and hearsay. - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria On Dec 15, 2009, at 8:52 AM, vance wood wrote: Howard: I think you may have intended to address your remarks to Ron rather than me. I haven't ventured any of the opinions that you discuss below. I am not ruining his reputation, or any of the people who have purchased instruments from him, He has done it to himself by not communicating and by accepting new business while these more pressing issue are left outstanding. It is at the least unethical, and illegal. You can say it is not fraud but you do not have to be a con man, intentionally perpetrating a fraud to commit fraud. Just like you do not have to be a serial murderer to commit murder, or a thief to steal. - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:45 AM, Ron Fletcher wrote: It is better to know the truth than to ruin this man's reputation as a good luthier by speculation and hearsay. The truth, according to several list members who say they have personal knowledge, is that Faria is long overdue in making instruments and is not communicating with customers whose money he has taken. This may destroy his reputation, but is certainly not speculation or hearsay. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria, for thoes of you who doubt
This kind of confirms my cynical position. If you can get in touch with this guy and get a prompt response why can't these other people who have paid good money for a good instrument even get the time of day from him after years of trying? - Original Message - From: Allan Alexander guitarandl...@earthlink.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Luciano Faria, for thoes of you who doubt For those of you who wonder about Luciano getting back to them or if he is still building, I sent him a note asking about a Vihuela and he responded to be within about an hour, Allan ___ Dear Allan, Thank you for your message. I don't have any renaissance guitar in stock, but I can build one for you. The price listed at my website is not valid since 2004, so please do not consider it. The actual price is US$ 2.100. The waiting time is around 10 months. Please let me know if you have any other question. Best wishes, Luciano Faria - Original Message - De Allan Alexander Para: lucianofa...@lucianofaria.com Sent: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:07:32 -0700 Assunto: Hi... Vihuela Hi Luciano I am very interested in a Renaissance guitar, the one you have on your site is beautiful, is that something you have in stock or can make? Allan His mail with headers -- Status: U Return-Path: lucianofa...@lucianofaria.com Received: from mx-austrian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([127.0.0.1]) by mx-austrian.atl.sa.earthlink.net (EarthLink SMTP Server) with SMTP id 1nkGEh3CX3Nl34j0; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.001windows.com.br ([200.186.45.140]) by mx-austrian.atl.sa.earthlink.net (EarthLink SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1nkGEg12D3Nl34j0 for guitarandl...@earthlink.net; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from 189.19.23.37 ([189.19.23.37]) by 001windows.com.br with MailEnable WebMail; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:08:24 -0300 To: guitarandl...@earthlink.net From: lucianofa...@lucianofaria.com Subject: Re: Hi... Vihuela Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:08:24 -0200 Message-ID: 368-236-524e066e43e844b18d4b454dbea7ad7@001windows.com.br X-Mailer: MailEnable Web Mail 1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=--=_NextPart_000_000B_4249922F.B1CD464A X-Read: 0 X-ELNK-Received-Info: spv=0; X-ELNK-AV: 0 X-ELNK-Info: sbv=0; sbrc=.0; sbf=0b; sbw=000; X-PMFLAGS: 570949760 0 1 PBUVIW20.CNM This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_000B_4249922F.B1CD464A Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Allan, Thank you for your message. I don't have any renaissance guitar in stock, but I can build one for you. The price listed at my website is not valid since 2004, so please do not consider it. The actual price is US$ 2.100. The waiting time is around 10 months. Please let me know if you have any other question. Best wishes, Luciano Faria - Original Message - De Allan Alexander Para: lucianofa...@lucianofaria.com Sent: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:07:32 -0700 Assunto: Hi... Vihuela Hi Luciano I am very interested in a Renaissance guitar, the one you have on your site is beautiful, is that something you have in stock or can make? Allan =_NextPart_000_000B_4249922F.B1CD464A-- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4691 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4691 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Luciano Faria
I hate to be the constant cynic but it is an easy thing for someone to be positive, friendly and even accommodating when they have their hand out waiting for the green to flow. However; when this positive, friendly and even accommodating behavior is followed with dodging, equivocating, and a refusal to communicate then one must conclude that they have been taken by a fraud. You might try Interpol but I think they would probably laugh at you behind your back. If one or more of these unrequited purchasers had some discretionary funds it might be fun to locate someone in Brazil capable of finding Mr. Faria and retrieving some or all of your investments. If Mr. Faria still has his web site up and is accepting deposits from it he is guilty of Internet fraud as well. He could be held culpable for this charge as well. One way to interest law enforcement is to provide proof of this kind of activity. - Original Message - From: Robison, John robi...@arts.usf.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 6:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Luciano Faria Hi everyone, For some time now, I have been reading a lot of the messages and comments made about Luciano Faria. My experience began positively when I submitted a double order for an archlute and a theorbo in January 2007; before submitting the orders, I checked with a few people that had purchased instruments from him, and they had good things to say. I know that he had that car accident early in 2008, I think, and I have read something about his parents, but still, this is ridiculous!!! The last time that he answered one of my e-mails was in August 2008, and at that time he said that he was getting ready to begin work on both instruments. Since then all of my e-mails have gone unanswered, and I have no other way of contacting him. His website has not changed since I first looked at it three years ago. My main reason for ordering the two instruments through him was that some of his archlute and theorbo models will accommodate my slightly small hand/finger size. I simply would like to find out definitely if he is building (or going to build) the two instruments, and if he is going to do a decent job on them. At this point, it is very important for me to find out one way or another, since I may have an opportunity to buy an archlute from someone else right now if Faria is not going to do his job. He has had my deposits on the two instruments for almost three years, and some sort of an honest answer from him would be nice. John O. Robison Univ. of South Florida -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4687 (20091214) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4687 (20091214) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: luciano faria
Not wishing to condemn anyone without knowing all of the circumstances but it seems to me if the man has time and resources in time to put up a new first rate web site advertising instruments for sale, knowing that he may not be able to complete those orders, or ignore some of them, or all of them,--- it is fraud. I don't know how international law works in matters like this but I certainly would not invest several thousands of dollars not being reasonably assured that I will get what I have ordered in a timely manner. - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: luciano faria As a luthier myself, I have empathy for any difficulties being experienced by Luciano. That's as it should be, but when it comes to actually doing business, all rises to another level. agreed. Were these times akin to hstorical times there would be a guild or a mayor and town council one could look to for oversight. in todays times there is bankruptcy court, for those with standing to bring complaint. We are not in Brazil, and have little in the way of standing; nor is it conveniant to make moan of any kind. I notice that LF now has a web page advertising his work. A rather impressive page at that, with many different instruments on show. I see nothing in the way of terms, no pictures of the shop, no instruments listed as ready for sale (that page is under construction), no discussion of materials used (also under construction). New orders are of course necessary if the man and his family are to eat; but one hopes the man is also budgeting his time in the shop to include some progress on old commitments. It would be nice if he made some public acknowlegement of the backlist; perhaps with pictures showing progress. When someone askes for a recommendation for this man, I think it would be unethical not to relate my own no argument. I wonder if there is any point in trying some kind of group action? A public website listing outstanding commitments might be a beginning. To be fair, balance it with a similar list of delivered instruments. Include a challenge to him to echo it on his own site. I dont think any want him to go under, just want what was contracted for. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4677 (20091210) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4677 (20091210) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: luciano faria
It seems to me that there has been a good deal about Mr. Faria on this list over the last year or two. Have you talked to him directly? I think (if I am correct) you may get some additional responses. - Original Message - From: THOMAS GEORGI thomasgeo...@rogers.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] luciano faria Is there anybody who can recommend Luciano Faria or has experience ordering an instrument from him? I am considering order a vaboam guitar from him. Thanks, Tom Georgi -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4673 (20091209) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4674 (20091209) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and done, at least as far as ancient music is concerned, composers and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in this context is the performance; which brings us back to the original premise in the first sentence of this reply. - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Cc: dwinh...@comcast.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over. I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: dwinh...@comcast.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented performers- just go back to earlier Golden Ages of recording, like the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) Dan Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore in a sense, natural. The problem with this is that the edits where never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther King Jr. would have recorded his I have a dream speech by reciting it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his voice as an object might technically sound better once the quivers and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of outrage and urgency? What would be the point? Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.11/2430 - Release Date: 10/12/09 04:01:00 __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4501 (20091012) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4501 (20091012) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute Factories
With the exception of those Lutes(?) made in Pakistan I can remember only Lutes being hand made one at a time by custom builders for individual clients. Hopefully I am wrong but I do not think so. - Original Message - From: Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lute Factories Does anyone know if, back in the day, there was the equivalent of the Cremona factories for lutes? Or were lutes always a custom-built instrument? . mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4470 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4470 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Because a good Lute by a master craftsman is more a work of art than the sum total of a bunch of wooden elements shaped by hand and glued together. Most who play the Lute can tell from the quality of the sound whether the Lute is the work of skill and artistry or the product of some sort of paint by the numbers operation somewhere where labor is figured in the essentials of a desperate life. In short a good Lute costs what it costs because that is what the market is. You being a business man should appreciate that, or at least understand it. My father had a saying: A thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are many Lute players that are willing to pay high prices for the kind of Lutes some builders are capable to producing. - Original Message - From: Seth Appel seth.ap...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] : Cost of a lute? So the thread about student lutes and costs has got my brain working... and let me state right away that by profession I am a business man and not am musician. Why does a lute cost as much as it does? Is it materials? Labor? A price premium for know-how? Are the Pakistani lutes cheap (in both the good and bad sense) because they are using poor materials, or is it because the craftspeople simple don't know how to make them better? Could an accomplished luthier go to Pakistan and work with them for a month and enable them to start producing truly good lutes at the same price? Or would this transformation take years of education and training? I wouldn't expect the Pakistani factory to produce master peices, but, as noted earlier, if someone can produce passable violins at $300, and lord knows there are plenty of cheap but OK guitars around, it escapes me why there are not cheap but OK lutes in the marketplace. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM, marius david cruceru [1]marius.cruc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Luther, My suggestion is to contact mister Lorinczi. He is living in Romania, in Tg. Mures. He made my lute, A VEnere, 8, a beautiful instrument, contact me to give you his email address to negociate the price. Would you like to have a REnnassaince Lute or a Baroque? Let me know if you are interested. best regards marius david cruceru romania [2]nedma...@aol.com wrote: As Chris said, don't give up Luther. I found two very nice instruments on Wayne's list at good prices (I have an instrument on order from Dan Larson). But before I found those instruments, I did a lot of practicing on a guitar using lute technique as best I could from some investigation. Put on a light set of strings and give it a try. I didn't use a capo, but you could to shorten the string length and bring the pitch up g'. This would at least get you going in a lute direction until you find an affordable instrument. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:marius.cruc...@gmail.com 2. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4471 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4471 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc
I find it, as a side bar, interesting that the one thing we think of as being so perfect and without flaw is mathematics. If mathematics was so flawless why is one of the most basic of concepts, that of pie, in itself an imperfect number having no resolution this side of infinity? So it is no wonder (in my opinion) that in an effort to justify tonality, an imperfect relationship in practice, with yet another imperfect concept should yield an imperfect result? - Original Message - From: William Brohinsky tiorbin...@gmail.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc It has long been my opinion that temperament is only necessary and workable on fixed-pitch instruments of limited resources. Specifically, it is a great work-around for a specific problem. For the rest of us, it is not a temperament that will be important to us (except where a specific composer adhered to a specific temperament, rather than some other system.) On instruments, like and especially the lute, where the performer's fingers are on the strings and corrections can be made on-the-fly, nothing that fits the definition of temperament is really necessary. Instead, there are adjustments that need to be made for the specific requirements of the instrument. In the case of the lute, the requirements involve things like different string mass/diameter/tension, and nut-grooves vs. saddle triangle shape (i.e., the height of the string and distance from the saddle as determined by the triangle-shaped bit where the string part through the saddle meets the string part over the saddle.) Organs respond well to temperaments, within each rank, and require some kind of resolution between different ranks, which may have pitches perceived differently because of harmonic content. Harpsichords do well, since the density difference between lowest and highest notes is not greatly different and string lengths even of the highest notes and tensions lead to string-behavior throughout the compass. Pianos respond badly to any kind of one-octave temperament-fits-all because the densities and tensions and string lengths cause the upper strings to act more and more like bars than strings. This is affected even more by the length of the piano's harp (most stark between spinets and 12-foot concert grands.) And it is influenced more subtly, but no less significantly, by the piano's scale-design and implementation. So there's no surprise that the purely mathematical solution (immediately available to anyone who has risen in technical acumen to understand the 12th root of 2) to ET12 is not applicable in the real world. The surprise may be that it can be made to work at all, even if the it that is being made to work is but a shadow of the mathematical solution! I find the most satisfying surprise in the discussion of tunings and temperaments is how Dowland's tuning, which is described in his nephew's book of lessons, makes his music sound better than any other system I've tried, even under these poorly-trained (and aging) fingers. Holborne doesn't sound so good to me in Dowland's tuning. Unlike Mr. Turovsky, I don't believe in the aphorism that good music doesn't rely on a specific tuning system or temperament. I believe that good composers take into account their available materials without conscious effort and produce music which uses them all to best advantage. After all, much of late 19th C and early 20th C analysis of renaissance music concluded that it was drab, purposeless and aimless, which seems to me to have been predicated on their using the temperament-of-the-day instead of any kind of just intonation. Compare a cylinder recording of an orchestra like Toscannini's, which can be corrected to reproduce all of the sound that was there at the recording, and compare that to the same piece played by one of today's symphonies: the difference in the sound and attractiveness of the music is incredible. I'm saying, here, that temperament/tuning doesn't make bad music interesting, but it can make GOOD music more interesting, when properly applied. Which I think says what Roman wanted to say about Harrison. Anyway, from a performance-listener point of view, the ability of untrained folk to not hear bad intonation should be well-known by now. And the ability of critical people to be, or claim to be, highly sensitive to out of tune is also well-known. What isn't well-known is a universal rule for how accurate a tuning (or temperament) has to be in order to please everyone. So it is unlikely that math alone is going to be a solution-source for musicians. ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4459 (20090926) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __
[LUTE] Re: cat will after kind
We tend to think we have a monopoly on crude, lascivious behavior with our on line porn, lose moral pop songs and television programs. Such is not the case. This is not the first time we have run across female genital references such and My Lady Hunsdon's Puff. There are those who believe that the word intended here is not puff but puss. I remember a madrigal I heard some time ago, the title and author of which I now cannot remember, but the multi voicing was constructed in such a way that at certain points in the composition the disparate voicing came together to make the phrase tickle her taint. - Original Message - From: Peter Nightingale n...@pobox.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] cat will after kind Dear Luters, The lyrics of Watkins Ale contains this: cat will after kind, all winkers are not blind I had always interpreted the winkers part as referring to a subtle invitation for a roll in the Ale, until I asked a British friend what he thought it meant. Much to my surprise, his response was that he thought that it was pretty crude and explained the winking as the opening and closing of certain penetrable orifices. Who here is so vile that they would know? I'll stop so you can reply. Peter. the next auto-quote is: Keep your government hands off my Medicare! (Unknown Representative of Idiot America) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4356 (20090821) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4356 (20090821) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Larry Brown 8c Lute for Sale
I get the dreaded 404 error message on you link. Can you post another? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Keith Kilo Watt s...@keithwatt.org To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Larry Brown 8c Lute for Sale Hello everyone - Please forgive the brief for sale notice, but I wanted to make my 8c lute available here before putting it up on eBay -- I'd really prefer that it go to a good home, like the good folks here. Here is the basic info, but please check my website ([1]http://www.KeithWatt.org/Lute) for hi-res pictures and the full information. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me off-list! Thanks again, Keith Watt == 8-course Renaissance Lute by Larry Brown Vibrating Length: 59 cm Year Built: 1991 (I am the third owner of the lute) Case: Plywood (made by Larry) Price: $1200.00 (+ shipping and insurance); first come, first served! Please note, I also have a fairly large collection of lute music and tutors available on eBay at a very reasonable price if you are interested. -- References 1. http://www.KeithWatt.org/Lute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4300 (20090803) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4300 (20090803) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: more Luciano
I googled the afore mentioned instrument order taker and found that you are not the only one. Check out the Classical Guitar forum, I think you will find the results both disheartening and interesting. I can speak only for myself but it would seem you are out the money so it is time for a bit of retribution. I would find myself a detective to locate the man and an attorney to sue his socks off, in fact a class action law suit may be even better. But that's just me and what do I know? http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=11t=31290#p320980 - Original Message - From: Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu To: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com; Orphenica wer...@orphenica.de Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 3:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] more Luciano Once more let me admonish anyone thinking of ordering a lute from Luciano Faria - I am still waiting for my instruments - A fully-paid for theorbo and deposits on two other lutes that are all about three years late! He doesn't answer emails, phone calls, or (I'm thinking) smoke signals. I am out thousands of dollars. I can think of no remedy for me, but I will keep sounding these warnings to all and sundry: DON'T DO IT!!! Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4297 (20090801) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4297 (20090801) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb-under . . always?
I too have been through this transition; the soft fingers after washing etc. The next thing you have to concentrate on is striking both strings in a course. If you are coming at the Lute by way of the Guitar you will have the tendency to play the strings much the same way you played the guitar. Your ear will have the tendency to be satisfied with the sound of the single string resonating. Watch many of the Lute players on YouTube. Many of them are pretty good musicians but some of them will be shown striking only one of the two strings in a course of close ups. VW - Original Message - From: nedma...@aol.com To: vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb-under . . always? Thank you, David. It's interesting that you've discovered these various positions whether by research, exploration of a good bit of both. I have noticed that the lute is very sensitive to variations of right hand position and condition of the skin. (I love the sound I get after taking a shower and my fingers are soft). Thanks for sharing. I have much to think about and experiment with. Ned __ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4295 (20090731) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4295 (20090731) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Thumb-under . . always?
I find that it is important to keep the fingers and palm of the right hand parallel to the strings as opposed to the heel of the hand being parallel to the strings. This way the fingers are coming at the strings down and in instead of across and up as in plucking the strings. - Original Message - From: [1]nedma...@aol.com To: [2]vancew...@wowway.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Thumb-under . . always? Thanks, VW. I think I'm striking both strings, but will pay close attention to this issue. Ned __ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4295 (20090731) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. [3]http://www.eset.com -- References 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 2. mailto:vancew...@wowway.com 3. http://www.eset.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tracetti vs. Pinti?
Sometimes the controversy and the uncertainty make for better reading than the often boring truth. It makes the music more interesting as well; for those looking for clues within styles and motives. - Original Message - From: Thomas Walker, Jr. twlute...@hotmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: [LUTE] Tracetti vs. Pinti? Hello all, I'm wondering about the identity of the Laurencini of Besard's collection. It seems we have at least two viable candidates for the Lorenzino of Thesaurus Harmonicus. If I read Mariagrazia Carlone's work properly, she believes the Knight to be Vincenzo Pinti. However, I just scanned the notes of Marco Pesci's cd devoted to Lorenzino, and he vies for Lorenzino Tracetti. Any general views on this? I just finished a cd of Italian lute music c. 1600, including a handful of tunes by Lorenzino. I don't intend to delve deep in the scholarship on this topic, much less add anything new, but I would like to get some facts straight before I write the CD notes (last task remaining). Thanks much all, Thomas Walker, Jr. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Right hand fingerings in Dowland
I may be looked on as wrong here, but here is something that might help you get things sorted out in your head. Use the thumb and index finger in almost the same way you would use a pick if you were playing a guitar with a plectrum. The strong beat is played with a down stroke on the thumb and the weak return with an upstroke with the index finger. The real trick here is to make sure you do not rotate your wrist but keep it parallel to the strings. As soon as you start rotating you are going to miss notes miss a string in a course and or pull up on the course causing it to rattle against the finger board. The tendency for some is to play the base notes with the thumb only which makes for some real problems when some of the passages call for rapid notes in those registers; something difficult to do with the thumb only and not sound thunky. I have found that a lot of Milano requires this technique---for me. As to the Earl of Essex, there are some tricky parts in this piece that require a good deal of right hand fudging. It is one of those cross-over pieces where things seem to be evolving between strict thumb index attack and fingered passages more like guitar technique. A lot of Dowland seems to work this way. - Original Message - From: nedma...@aol.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Right hand fingerings in Dowland As I work on The Right Honorable Robert, Earl of Essex, His Galliard (42a. in Diana Poulton's edition of Dowland's works) - and watch some players on youtube - it occurs to me that not only do I have to work on thumb-under technique, but also to rethink the use of fingers in playing passages that I used to use the thumb in quite a bit. The question I have is, how much do we know about Dowland's right hand technique, and how much do we just try to arrive at something that works? For example, in the fourth measure of the second section of the Earl of Essex Galliard, are all the notes on the third string and up covered by the fingers or would the thumb play a part? And in the final section, four and three measures from the end, how active would the thumb be, or is it mostly finger work? Are there editions of Dowland's music where fingerings are more extensively notated? (I notice in the same Poulton edition in 96. An Almand, right hand fingerings are much more in evidence - as are ornaments). Ned __ Looking for love this summer? [1]Find it now on AOL Personals. -- References 1. http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove0003 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
You may specialize and still have an interest in other instruments without betraying your first love. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Dilettantism I've been bothered by the charge of dilettantism (someone who prefers diversity to virtuosity) which was raised on this list recently. How many different instruments is it possible to play to a high professional standard? One? Two? And how many do most lutenists try to play? Four? Eight? And the differences are not trivial: sizes, playing techniques, tunings, repertoire, notation... Hans Keller once wrote an essay denouncing Phoney Professions, one of which was the Viola Player. Phoney, because playing the viola is so similar to playing the violin that specialist viola players shouldn't need to exist. Yet they persist. The string player's quest for the highest possible standard on his/her instrument trumps Keller's logic. Are we in the lute world systematically harming our playing standards, even the reputation of our instrument, by spreading ourselves too thin? Wouldn't we do better to specialise? Peter (lute, theorbo, classical guitar, baroque guitar, ocarina...) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1936 - Release Date: 02/05/09 11:34:00
[LUTE] Re: Best material for extending a string.
A piece of an old string (the reason you save your old strings) or a piece of spare fret gut, or a piece of monofilament fishing line of appropriate dimension. Tie end to end with a barrel knot, used in fishing. I suppose there may be better methods but any port in a storm. - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Best material for extending a string. Suppose a string broke betwen the nut and the peg, so you needed an extension to reach the peg. What material would be best for the extension? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 12/6/2008 4:55 PM
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
Hi Omer: In a pinch you can substitute monofilament fishing line of appropriate gauge, 30 lbs test or better. - Original Message - From: Omer katzir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 3:38 AM Subject: [LUTE] Fret replacement It's dry, really dry down here in Israel. and it's winter...or at least supposed to me. My gut frets are going bad, really bad. and until I'll get new ones, i need something to replace them. Now, I have guitar strings, i all sizes and shapes, I also have some old nylon lute strings. and i think i even have one A cello string, even computer cables. So...what to do? any recommendation? Thank you, Omer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1833 - Release Date: 12/5/2008 7:08 PM
[LUTE] Re: John Dowland
I agree with the source filing. In order to make this meaningful however, I think it will be necessary, and educational, to list the sources chronologically. The oldest known sources listed first. This also begs the question; is the earliest source the closest to the composers original intent? According to my meager knowledge Lady Hunsdon's Puff is a prime example, existing in what is thought to be Dowland's own hand but can be argued to not be the best version musically. - Original Message - From: Sauvage Valéry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Dowland Hello Rob and all , The version I play of Mrs White's choyce is the Sampson (Tollemache) version (f.7) (according to Poulton's notes on P50) Version unusual in F, but I like this one, and it is not hard to play. ;-) The thing is that Diana Poulton and Basil Lam choose some pieces for their collected lute music, but sometimes other versions are nice too. For example the Lachrimae pavan is proposed in the Cambridge MS version (Dd5 and Dd2). The Folger version (my favorite) is described in Poulton's note as a text with many variants from the norm... (I plan to record both... the Dd5 and the Folger, some day ;-) Valéry - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Dowland Dear John Dowland contributors, it would be good to know which manuscripts you are using for your recordings. Val's recent video performance of Mrs White's Choyce, being a case in point. It is very similar to Mrs Whites Thing in Poulton, but obviously from a different source. I have still filed it under the Poulton classification number for Mrs Whites Thing, but I could put a note of the source in the Notes column. So, Val, let me know your source, please, and could any future contribution from anyone please include the original source where known. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1819 - Release Date: 11/29/2008 10:37 AM
[LUTE] Re: Molinaro, Galilei
I cannot tell you how many books but if you are interested in obtaining some of the music you might want to visit here. http://www.lute.ru/mirrors/gerbode/ft2/composers/index.php?path=Galilei/ - Original Message - From: andrei and [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 3:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Molinaro, Galilei Hi to everyone, Does someone knows how many books did Simone Molinaro and Vincenzo Galilei publish? And when were they publihed? And also, where can I find these books to download? If there ain't no source to download can someone please, send me a link where I can buy these books on the internet? Thank you and, Greetings to all Andrei Vanazzi __ Instale a Barra de Ferramentas com Desktop Search e ganhe EMOTICONS para o Messenger! [1]E GRATIS! -- References 1. http://www.msn.com.br/emoticonpack To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1787 - Release Date: 11/14/2008 8:32 AM
[LUTE] Re: Bach on the baroque lute
It is acceptable to critique someone else's playing but when that critique goes to a point where it is more a personal attack, mean and destructive, it becomes incumbent upon the critic to display his/her own ability and show all of us how he/she would play. In short Igor, put up or shut up. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach on the baroque lute Igor is a moron. There are moments when Val's playing has moved me, and left me thinking, 'Why can't I play like that?'. Keep it up Val. Your fans want more! Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1777 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 9:53 AM
[LUTE] Re: Peace
I am sure you mean well but what does this have to do with the Lute and its music? - Original Message - From: Rebecca Banks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Peace October 29th, 2008 Dear Lutenists: The following link is from Owen, an excellent counsellor and friend who is offering a series of short (not more than 6 minutes) videos with insights on relationship - [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/bwhouare - Peace in the world starts with peace in relationship. The Way of Peace, love, Rebecca Tea at Tympani Lane Records [2]www.tympanilanerecords.com __ -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/bwhouare 2. http://www.tympanilanerecords.com/ Hidden links: 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L17558-2634TMP.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1755 - Release Date: 10/29/2008 5:27 PM
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound
I suspect a couple of things on this issue that go toward the nature of strings as it relates to sound and playing position. The concept, nature and tension of strings from an historical view point has been discussed here many times and at length. The only absolute that we can derive from these discussions is that we really don't know much for sure. The iconography indicates a move in right hand position toward the bridge as the Sixteenth Century progresses and more strings are added to the Lute. It is not difficult to assume that as more strings are added that, of necessity, they would, or should have to be of lesser tension else the instrument would implode under the combined pressure of additional courses. If this assumption is true then strings of lesser tension would have to be played at a location nearer to the bridge in order to produce a pleasing sound. I of course am no specialist and the preceding is but my theory. But still it could come back to the nature of the original period strings and our lack of knowledge of how they were made. We often make assumptions based on our ability, or inability, to duplicate what we believe to be factual. When in the end we are confronted with contradictions we are loath to think our research is flawed. Until that point when we know for sure the how's and why's of historical practices we can only explore, examine, and try to apply them to the real world of Lute playing we strive in. We should attempt to get the best sound out of the instrument and strings we have beneath our fingers at the moment. If playing near the bridge makes your instrument sound like someone dropping nails into a large empty can then don't play near the bridge. VW - Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound On Sep 28, 2008, at 5:57 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: might argue that there _was_ kinda ideal sound. On my way through the museum of musical instruments in Vienna, I learned that in the 16th century it was Spaltklang. The obvious question would be who said that? The museum's iPod 8) And how old is the iPod? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.4/1695 - Release Date: 9/27/2008 1:11 PM
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound, esoteric or worldly?
- Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound, esoteric or worldly? That is I believe the key. It is the old emigration from the Guitar and its single string configuration. Many starting on the Lute actually only play one string in a course and may not realize it for years. It takes a modification of technique from that used on the Guitar to play the Lute so that it sounds like it is supposed to. - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 4:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound, esoteric or worldly? I think it is also about one or two strings. Players who get a big round sound, which is neither soft nor weed whackery, hit two strings pretty consistently. One of the nice things about video is you can see the strings vibrate. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.0/1683 - Release Date: 9/21/2008 10:10 AM
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
- Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] pre-newbie question A capo will put you in the correct pitch but do little in giving you a feel for the Lute. The Lute is double strung, the Guitar is as you know single strung. The tension on Lute strings is significantly lower than that of the Guitar and because of that the technique is different, especially with the right hand. The advantage of using a Guitar at this point is in getting a feeling for the music and whether or not you enjoy playing it. If you are at that point where you can actually play Lute music on the Guitar and enjoy doing it then the Guitar has served its purpose. This is how I came to the Lute, by way of the Guitar. This is also how I can tell you that it is different in many ways. The strings set closer to the sound board. You can not play the Lute with the same heavy hand that you can get away with on the Guitar. - Original Message - From: Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] pre-newbie question I've been plinking around on a cheap guitar I have, trying to get a sense of what it would be like to play a lute. I'm guessing that the likeness would be increased by using a capo. Does this sound right? Any suggestions on where to place the capo for the most lute-like experience, in terms of the biomechanics of playing? Are lute strings easier to fret than (acoustic) guitar strings? Is the action lower on a lute? Thanks for any info, Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1677 - Release Date: 9/17/2008 5:07 PM
[LUTE] Re: Snakewood
I know that some think this not a good idea for Lute backs/bowls, deferring instead to Yew. However history has shown that a variety of hard woods have in the past been used for the bowl, understanding that the sound board is the most critical portion of the Lute where type and quality of wood becomes more of an issue. Otherwise how do you account for the use of Ivory? Personally if I had a supply of quality Snake Wood I would not hesitate to use it. VW - Original Message - From: Guy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Rob Dorsey' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Snakewood I've seen it used in a few Baroque guitars (I think one of them was a Larry Brown, I don't recall who made the others). Guy -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Snakewood Henry, Have not built one from snakewood but, given the little bit of playing with it that I've done, I would not hesitate in building a lute from it. Each wood brings its own challenges and none is dead easy, except maybe completely unfigured maple. Rib width does not really matter. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Henry Villca [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:56 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Snakewood Dear friends, Does anyone know or had experience with snakewood broad-ribbed lute back??... is snakewood a suitable timber for lute backs?? Warm Greetings Henry -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 4:59 PM
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
Actually nothing until you realize that you are not sticking both strings in the course. This is particularly apparent with a doubled first course when you actually do manage to strike both strings, at least on my Lute, the sound is significantly different. It is not so much bending backwards but coming at the string from the top down rather than clawing the string from the bottom up if you get the difference from my feeble description. - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 2:36 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards. How so, Vance? I have a double first course lute too, and don't see the connection. What's different in first and second or third courses? David I will offer my opinion on the right hand. I play a Lute with a doubled first course. Having the ability to collapse the first joint of the digits on the right hand is crucial in getting a proper sound out of the instrument strung in this manner. VW To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1558 - Release Date: 7/17/2008 9:56 AM
[LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards.
I will offer my opinion on the right hand. I play a Lute with a doubled first course. Having the ability to collapse the first joint of the digits on the right hand is crucial in getting a proper sound out of the instrument strung in this manner. VW - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Take II: last joints that bend backwards. On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: Sorry for not being clear. I meant to ask about right-hand technique. Is the extra flexibility of significant help in the right hand? Dear Herbert, I would say yes, definitely. I had a couple of sessions with Richard Stone in May and June, and we talked about this quite a bit. I'm trying to make the changeover from 35 years of renaissance lute thumb- under, to some form of Baroque lute thumb out, or at least thumb- middle. It's a difficult thing to jump into. One of the points that Richard bought out as being the next step in my right-hand progress, was to tell me to play with a lot of flexibility in my right hand fingertips. You can also get some advice on this subject, from Ronn MacFarlane's web site: http://www.ronnmcfarlane.com/lute/btb/BTB_11_Tone_Control.pdf Ronn sees that last joint on your right hand as your tone Control. Best wishes David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1555 - Release Date: 7/16/2008 6:43 AM
[LUTE] Re: Last joints that bend backwards.
I find the technique invaluable in playing much of Milano's work. - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Last joints that bend backwards. On Jul 12, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Herbert Ward wrote: Some people have fingers that bend backwards somewhat at the last joint. Is this helpful for lute playing? Definitely, if it is the first finger of the fretting hand. It makes it easier to play Eb chords in the first position with an open G string. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.9/1548 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 7:40 AM
[LUTE] Re: almost lute
From the configuration of the neck I would conclude that this might be an Oud not a Lute. - Original Message - From: Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 3:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] almost lute Check out the cover of this week's Economist. If you're not near a newsstand, this is the cover image: http://media.economist.com/images/20080614/2408LD1.jpg ...Bob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1501 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 6:33 AM
[LUTE] Re: Left hand positioning
If I read you correctly you should be using a bar with the index finger when the stops are on the same fret. You might want to pick up a copy of Variety of Lute Lessons, a facsimile edition of a Lute primer from the sixteenth Century, there is some information on both hands. - Original Message - From: Daniel Ramey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Left hand positioning Greetings All, I am a rare poster to this list, but I was practicing last night and found an interesting issue cropping up.I am a beginning lute player and most of the songs I have learned to this point have been out of the DeGroot Learning to play the lute book. This is the one that came with my EMS lute. Now, I have another book of 31 pieces for the Renaissance Lute, and those are a bit more complex. Well, I was feeling brave and attempted a couple last night. I quickly found the left hand fingering patterns to be more than I bargained for. I realized after a few attempts, that the tablature showed me everything (which finger to pluck with, which course to pluck, and which courses should be fingered at which frets). But it did not tell me which fingers to use on my left hand! Are there any general rules for fingering position with the left hand? I tend to use my pointer finger for the second fret and my middle for the third, but I find it difficult when I have two or three positions I need to have depressed, that are on the same fret and vertically far apart. Any advice would be appreciated, Thanks, Daniel -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008 5:23 PM
[LUTE] Re: Kind of explanatiom?
Try sitting on a nail. - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Kind of explanatiom? I, for one, am not offended by your comments, Arto. Keep making some of us (Americans) uncomfortable. Gary - Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 3:54 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Kind of explanatiom? In other words; I'm sorry I mentioned it but as long as I did let me add a few more faggots to the fire. Why don't you just stop? You have no idea how many people you offend Arto. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Kind of explanatiom? Dear lutenists, the eve of 1st May is kind of party day here north. My mails about the torture by the US of A. was affected by that fact. I do really know that the possible crimes of the US government really have nothing to do with the lute list! So my sincere apologies for my mis-use of the List! Kind of explanation: Already during the Vietnam war - I was a schoolboy then - I was strongly against the so called American imperialism. But never then could I imagine that they in USA could ever leave the inheritance of the period of the Enlightment, the time of Newton et al., the time when torture was excluded from the repertoire of modern society. Now we have it again - kind of Spanish inquisition by one of the (at least until now?) leading societies of our world. For me that is very hard to stand. All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1409 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 8:39 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1408 - Release Date: 4/30/2008 6:10 PM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1411 - Release Date: 5/2/2008 8:02 AM
[LUTE] Re: Kind of explanatiom?
In other words; I'm sorry I mentioned it but as long as I did let me add a few more faggots to the fire. Why don't you just stop? You have no idea how many people you offend Arto. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Kind of explanatiom? Dear lutenists, the eve of 1st May is kind of party day here north. My mails about the torture by the US of A. was affected by that fact. I do really know that the possible crimes of the US government really have nothing to do with the lute list! So my sincere apologies for my mis-use of the List! Kind of explanation: Already during the Vietnam war - I was a schoolboy then - I was strongly against the so called American imperialism. But never then could I imagine that they in USA could ever leave the inheritance of the period of the Enlightment, the time of Newton et al., the time when torture was excluded from the repertoire of modern society. Now we have it again - kind of Spanish inquisition by one of the (at least until now?) leading societies of our world. For me that is very hard to stand. All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1409 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 8:39 AM
[LUTE] Re: OT: Torture and c-camps
Must have fallen off the wagon once more. - Original Message - From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Torture and c-camps Arto, that was remarkably long since you posted something which is again true but not at all appropiate for the lutenet. Please don't! The only outcome is just another flame war. g On 01.05.2008, at 00:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear musicians, someone from the US PS-talked me lately: . All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1408 - Release Date: 4/30/2008 6:10 PM
[LUTE] Re: Extravaganza (OT)
Interesting, encouraging, and better than a food fight but no Lutes? - Original Message - From: Daniel F Heiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 2:10 AM Subject: [LUTE] Extravaganza (OT) The center part of the US tends to be an early music desert compared to either of the coasts, but lately the Chicago area has begun to perk up a bit, with a few more local musicians putting on relatively high-quality performances. In addition, there are sometimes outreach events designed to engage young people and the general public. I participated in something last Sunday that, while not superb musically, was still just a lot of fun to do. Pictures here: http://earlymusichicago.org/photoalbum_MICEarlyMusicExtravaganzaApril2008 .htm Some of you who attend LSA Seminars will recognize a singer.at the center of the group in the second picture from the right in the top row. Daniel Heiman To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2/1386 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 5:24 PM
[LUTE] Re: Pavana
I have a facsimile of the Pisador book around somewhere, I'll check the notation. The problem may lay with schott and some guitarists that found it was more musical/fun to play in triple time than duple. Your problem is in assigning credibility to a second generation interpretation/transcription of the work. All of this is just a knee jerk reaction and may be totally wrong, but this is what first came to my mind. - Original Message - From: Stephen Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:04 AM Subject: [LUTE] Pavana Greetings. I notice the Pisador vihuela Pavana muy llana para taner is notated in triple time in the Schott guitar edition, which says that the original was given in duple. Normally pavans are duple, but looking at it it does seem to insist on being triple (or is that just knowing it so long in triple?). Three questions pertain: - should this piece really be in triple time? - if so how does it end up in triple: is it a function of its being from an earlier time than many pavans we are used to? - is there an implication for tempo, eg should it be quicker than the stately progress we think of for the standard duple pavan? Umpteen thankings, Stephen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date: 4/12/2008 11:32 AM
[LUTE] Re: Fingering question
Igor I really find it difficult to understand why someone would make a big deal out of this conversation, it's not like you don't know what the message is about in your email in-box. The simple thing;--- use the delete button. If you don't like the food don't order it from the menu--simple. In the mean time post something you might be interested in or--- is it that you really have nothing to say? - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Fingering question Sean, I think we're just suffering a visit from Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged. Once he has insulted everyone individually he will move on On 29/03/2008, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I rather enjoy learning more about the music I like. Maybe you should join the Nintendo lute society where things move a little quicker. Or start one where the insults move more to your taste. Sean Begin forwarded message: you should discuss with each other via telephono..don't be exibionist please . -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1348 - Release Date: 3/28/2008 10:58 AM
[LUTE] Re: I can remain silent any longer....!!.....
Dear Dr. Zakin: You refer to Julian Bream as being The late Julian Bream. Could you clarify this statement, has Julian Bream indeed died? I have heard nothing on this issue neither can I find reference to his death on the Internet. Thank you for your response. Vance Wood - Original Message - From: Paavo R. Zakin, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: William Brohinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] I can remain silent any longer!!. Hello, William et al, PLEASE forgive this mind-altering ukelele hyperlink, which not only is deserving of all lutenists' scrutiny, but specifically a further investigation of Jake Shimabukuro's works in toto: world class uke playing; look beyond the genre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT_Jr3vasOofeature=related As a brief apology, I became enamored of the Elizabethan lute, and learned to play it, after a sleep-over visit to my ancestral home of the late Julian Bream, a friend of our family, when I was a early teen, approximately 1964 or so; he practiced in our attic room, and I listened at the base of the stairwell for hours. Peace. Paavo R. Zakin, MD William Brohinsky wrote: Colliginous Trenchancy, I am (an an advanced age) finally working my way to an engineering degree, and have been accepted at our state's premier technical university. They just happen to have a Collegium Musicum (which I've played with in the past). It just happens to have a theorbo, although currently it is classed as in need of repair. It is my intention to get it repaired and use it to play continuo (which I am learning now). The only reentrant tuning I've dealt with before was a Ukelelei. (Can you mention one of them here without starting a riot?) I figured I could at least get a start by changing out the top two strings of my classical guitar for an A and D string, and tuning them to B and E, an octave lower than 'usual'. This works pretty well, and I was able to make sense of Kapsberger's toccata arpeggiata with a fair minimum of twisting my brain around Italian tab. Up to now, I've been french/english tab exclusively. I seek advice and help: On a student's budget, is there a source for scale and chord studies, the basics that would make the relations of the strings make more sense to someone who has been linear-all-his-life? Any advice for learning Italian tab for someone used to french tab? I've found that the physical relation between the strings (high pitched string towards gravity) and Italian tab (high string notated 'down') does me no good. Ray -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.0/1342 - Release Date: 3/25/2008 10:26 AM
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
On the base of it I would agree, but I find the delete button works as well when a posting subject starts, then deteriorates to the point that I have no interest in it. Occasionally I will look in, as I did here, and thus my comment. Flame wars do nothing to advance our understanding of a subject, just color and diminish our opinion/opinions of those involved. - Original Message - From: Orphenica [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray May be we should create another list, suggest: the inpolite lute list or simple the insult list, exclusively reserved to people bashing comments. That would it make much easier for those to follow who are interested in more lute related discussions. ;-) we igor . schrieb: -- Forwarded message -- From: igor . [1][EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray To: David Tayler [2][EMAIL PROTECTED] Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not here we go David : it is clear that affect,rhetoric etc are just WORDS for you ! i mean , listening to your youtube clips every intelligent music lover can see that. in the end : music is an art for everyone to share , including you ( me, as well ) but, at least try to move from zero point where you are right now. it may make you look happier while performing. p.s. what's lebdjelica ?? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1331 - Release Date: 3/16/2008 10:34 AM
[LUTE] Re: Etymology
Humm?? Would that make a trombone player a tromboner? A piccolo player a piccoloist or maybe a picolist might be better. - Original Message - From: Steve Bryson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Steve Bryson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Etymology I'm surprised no one has mentioned the following, which I've had thrown at me several times over the years by various [EMAIL PROTECTED]: a flute player is called a flautist implies a lute player is called a lautist (always carefully pronounced loutist). The above syllogism is always stated in full and in a loud voice. steve On Mar 4, 2008, at 3:43 AM, G. Crona wrote: I small question. To describe a person playing the lute, I've come across: Lutenist Lutist Lutanist Lute-player Which is (are) the correct one (s)? All of them? G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- http://homepage.mac.com/stevepur -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.4/1310 - Release Date: 3/4/2008 8:35 AM
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Typical of Lutes before the advent of traditional historically accurate instruments. When I went to Oakland University the school owned a Rubio and it was a dog musically. This was in the mid 70's and apparently this Rubio was more historically correct and did not have the metal frets. - Original Message - From: Guy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'David Rastall' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Anthony Hind' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? My old Steiner furniture lute had a similar treble rider, and I've seen them on other instruments of that type and vintage. Perhaps they got the idea from the Bream instrument. It had only seven courses and a single chanterelle, though. Guy -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 1:06 PM To: Anthony Hind Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? Looks like it's in excellent condition. I've never seen an 8-course with a treble rider and both 1st and 2nd single strings. David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mar 3, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date: 3/3/2008 10:01 AM
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
No one can argue that this is not a beautiful instrument, and if Bream owned it I am sure it has a wonderful sound, if not a bit Guitar like. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? On Mar 3, 2008, at 4:24 PM, vance wood wrote: No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Hi Vance, Yes I noticed the frets. As soon as I saw the back of the neck I said, what's wrong with this picture? I like Rubio's monogram BTW. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date: 3/3/2008 10:01 AM
[LUTE] Re: Source Wars
Ahhha, David: You forget egos and music. You cannot separate the two and sometimes egos show themselves in rude responses and --- no responses: I get that all the time. Vw - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Source Wars I assume that these source wars, where one person trots out his sources, and someone else trots out his in rebuttal, are purely academic discussions with little or no relationship to actual real- world playing. Otherwise, if you guys need to be told how to play musically, if you have to look it up in your historical sources, then there is something fundmentally wrong with your own innate sense of music making. At the end of Stewart McCoy's last post I felt like saying congratulations, you just discovered musicianship! (not that Stewart ever acknowledges any of my posts. He simply replies to the list saying the same things I just said, without even the courtesy of a cc). I wonder, though, whether anyone who considers himself/ herself a serious and accomplished player is going to be swayed significantly by anything in those sources. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1255 - Release Date: 2/1/2008 9:59 AM
[LUTE] Re: bach and karamazov
I agree, this is well done and pleasing to listen to. Thanks for posting it. VW - Original Message - From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: bach and karamazov I wonder why nobody responded to this one so far. I must say I actually quite like it. I could do without Edin hugging and swaying the lute like a madman. But this piece can take some punishment and showmanship. Not bad. g On 28.01.2008, at 15:36, Roman Turovsky wrote: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gmHVj6tiIi0 RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.17/1252 - Release Date: 1/30/2008 8:51 PM
[LUTE] Re: arm pain
Rob: I have had carpal tunnel surgery and shoulder surgery. But before you do anything do yourself and all of us a favor. Go to a doctor and have an emg done as well as an ekg. Left arm problems often are indicative of heart issues that can render the other problems moot. It's better to be safe than sorry. I know when they triaged me for my carpal syndrome surgery the emg extended up the neck so I assume the problems can radiate from there. - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Ed Durbrow' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'LuteNet list' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: arm pain Won't be able to play in a month?! Good luck, Ed! Take care. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 January 2008 15:52 To: LuteNet list; Rob MacKillop Subject: [LUTE] Re: arm pain Any experience of this? Yes. I feel your pain! My left arm has been going progressively numb for the last three weeks. I went to the orthopedic hospital on Friday. They say I have a narrow space between vertebrae in my neck. That has been causing pain in my right arm and upper quadrant of my back for a year or so. Every time something new happens to my hands or arms I think it might be the one that will make me stop playing. If this numbness keeps progressing at this rate, I won't be able to play in a month. I'm hoping it will be like most things in the past and I'll just go through this but still be able to play. These are the times I kick myself for not recording some piece or other when it was at it's peak, you know? I work up a piece but don't record it because I know it could be better, but then something else comes along and my interest shifts and before I know it the other piece has slid down the bell curve and is not as close as it was to peak condition and slipping ever away. I certainly wish you a speedy recovery, Rob. On Jan 27, 2008, at 5:56 AM, Rob wrote: Bad news. I'm typing with one hand only as I seem to have a problem with my left. For the past five days I've had muscular pain in my upper left arm. I thought I must have knocked it, but couldn't remember doing so. I did teach a percussion class last Monday, but hardly used my left arm at all. Anyway, I could still play the lute - no problem with fingers, tendons, carpal tunnels, etc. I thought the pain would pass. But it hasn't. In fact, today it has got a lot worse. I nearly crashed the car because I suddenly lost the use of the left arm. Luckily I was close to home. Later I picked up a book and dropped it immediately - the pain was too much. So, I'm really worried. I can still wiggle my fingers - no problem at all there - but I can't drive, or lift my instrument with the left arm. I'm still hopeful it will all disappear tomorrow, but I plan to go to hospital emergency if it doesn't. Every movement is painful, but it still feels like a muscular problem. Any experience of this? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release Date: 1/26/2008 3:45 PM
[LUTE] Re: enough
I agree David, anyone is entitled to work out a composition as they see fit. However; in doing so they must also be willing to take the heat and ridicule, if a majority of listeners think they have perverted the composition, as well as the praise, from those who think what they did was genius. As for me, I am a bit of a purist. As to this performance; I seem to be able to download only the first 23 seconds of it so I cannot form too much of a critique. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lex Eisenhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 4:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: enough On Jan 24, 2008, at 3:56 PM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: reasons to quit the list again Oh, I don't know. Let the fur fly! I think it gets interesting when we start talking about how to play the music. Some people like to take every note of a piece as part of a work of genius, and work from there to hopefully find the voice of the composer. Others like to mess around with the music, and work from there in an attempt to find their own voice. Either approach is valid. I'm going to stay tuned and see if any other points of view arise. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.10/1241 - Release Date: 1/24/2008 9:58 AM
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
From what I understand Dowland from early in hi career was criticized for his poor counterpoint, his use of old style composition and old way of playing. He spent his entire adult life trying to get employment in Elizabeth I's court and so on. If he did indeed change he probably did so finally succumbing to peer pressure, or maybe the introduction of over-spun strings. We will most likely never know exactly how or why about many aspects of this man's life. - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his motivation to change? Just a sec, let me get my flame shield. On Dec 17, 2007, at 7:19 PM, Martin Eastwell wrote: I would tend to assume that a player like Dowland would not go off on a European tour having just made a major technical change. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1210 - Release Date: 1/5/2008 11:46 AM
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Here is another thought: Maybe Dowland created the change in technique? If not him who and from where? Do we know the answer to that question? - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his motivation to change? Just a sec, let me get my flame shield. On Dec 17, 2007, at 7:19 PM, Martin Eastwell wrote: I would tend to assume that a player like Dowland would not go off on a European tour having just made a major technical change. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1210 - Release Date: 1/5/2008 11:46 AM
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
I know that this must be a bit off topic but beside the issue of accessing the additional bases as a criteria for thumb out one has to ask why was thumb in used in the first place, especially when you consider how the thumb and second finger sometimes interfere with each other? I will answer my own question before you all start shooting at me. When I started playing the Lute in the 70's I used what is euphemistically called Guitar technique. When I made the switch to thumb in I discovered that with the thumb in it is far easier to cause both strings of a given course to sound than with the wrist cocked as in Guitar technique. So I would conclude from this experience that the thumb in was used because it sounded better, it's as simple as that. It is not so much an issue of thumb position as it is wrist. Going back to thumb out here is the difference. Going from in to out you must adjust the right hand so that the fingers still have the same or similar attack on the string or you will have the sound of one string in a course sounding rather than both. But in all honesty, with the thumb out all you really are doing is playing the way the instrument dictates. You are not going to be able to reach those bases with the thumb in. The critical issue as I see it is the position of the wrist. - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? I have to contribute my two cents worth of opinion here. I am firm in the belief that no one from the 16th through 18th centuries really cared a whit about proper right-hand technique, other than doing what is necessary to produce a pleasing tone. Here we go again. Vallet.. Besard... Stobaus... No one? No sense restating previous available material, just refer to the LSA Journal, Vol. XII, 1979, Paul Beier's article that brings it all together. Yes, they did care- very much in fact and they had the same stupid fights about it that we have now. The only difference was it wasn't about being historically correct, just playing more effectively the newer styles of music on lutes that had also changed. And being more physically graceful in a very manners-appearance centered society. They sure as hell did care about appearance, posture, the whole socially graceful thing. Maybe shallow concerns, but in those days it mattered. They did not go abroad in jeans and t-shirts, let alone eat out or do gigs dressed that way. We want to understand the milieu in which our heroes operated, why they did the things they did; we cannot discount anything in the picture without first examining and understanding the whole. The question of 'what is historically appropriate right-hand technique?' is entirely a modern day phenomenon, created in the 1970s so lutenists could distinguish themselves from guitarist who 'doubled' on the lute. I never gave a damn about distinguishing myself from the guitarists back in the '70's (Hell, I was one!) I just couldn't get a decent sound or free movement to save my life using late 20th Century Classical Guitar RH technique hand position on my first real Renaissance lute. Either I mastered thumb under business or call the whole project off. There is ample evidence that 'thumb under' technique was preferred up until the time additional bass courses added to lutes became commonplace. It is a matter of practicality that the thumb must take a different position to accomodate additional bass courses. We know from his published works that Dowland's lute employed 7 to 9 courses. This has to be the reason he was described as using a 'thumb out' technique towards the end of his life. I don't think I'm the first one to point this out. Yes, indeed- again, check out Stobaus in Beier's Journal article. It is now the 21st century, and we are far enough away from the 'lutenist versus guitarist' issue of the 1970s that I think we can safely put it to rest. Maybe we should be asking ourselves, 'How can we get more young people interested in playing the lute?' Yes indeedy again. Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his motivation to change? Just a sec, let me get my flame shield. Martin Eastwell wrote I would tend to assume that a player like Dowland would not go off on a European tour having just made a major technical change. Ed Durbrow Maybe it wasn't so sudden (Stobaus did not specify the amount of time it took Dowland to change over.) Maybe he took his sweet time getting it right. I was able to do it effectively within two years and I most certainly am not the best lute player in the world let alone a Dowland (ha ha). I did give a successful, well reviewed Carnegie Recital Hall
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
From what I have been reading over the years about this issue I am not so sure the use of the plectrum as the reason for the thumb under is anything more than supposition, especially when one considers how the fingers of the right hand strike the strings more efficiently from that wrist position than with that assumed by many Guitarists, coming at the Lute for the first time. I know, I have been there. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 4:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? On Sat, Jan 5, 2008, vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I know that this must be a bit off topic but beside the issue of accessing the additional bases as a criteria for thumb out one has to ask why was thumb in used in the first place, especially when you consider how the thumb and second finger sometimes interfere with each other? I understood that it was because of the influence of plectrum play, which has strong (down) strokes, weak (up) strokes, taking advantage of the weight of the arm. When the plectrum is discarded in favor of fingers, one gains the ability to arpeggiate and play lines of polyphony in ensemble leaving harmony to emerge from the ensembles efforts; but the ear will also have an apreciation and expectation of the old strong/weak accentuation; and the player will have a well developed sense of how to give that with the arm. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1210 - Release Date: 1/5/2008 11:46 AM
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Dowland suggests playing sweetly in Varietie. I think the sound must be clean with no buzzing or rattling and even, between base and treble. If you get that it does not matter how you got there. Regardless of what Guru you invest your technique with, playing the Lute is still about the music. It is amazing how we have come full circle once more, where by we are left with the option of criticizing those who came before and those who are now playing the instrument. It must be an obligatory thing that those new to the study must reject the methods and techniques of those who have preceded them. I remember when I started how much Julian Bream was pilloried for the way he played, now people are starting to emulate him once more---go figure. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:50 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? On Dec 15, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Martin Eastwell wrote: I make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some point, and have quite often encountered surprise and even hostility from students because what I was suggesting flew in the face of the teachings or performing practice of their favourite lute guru. Then the guru's are wrong. The teachings and performance practices of the Old Ones are what we should be studying, and alas, this goes against what we learn from the gurus who have invented this hybrid thumb-in / thumb-out thing because they themselves can't handle the way the lute was played in the old days. Yes, we are going to have to drastically re-evaluate our ideas of what kind of sound the Old Ones were actually going for! My $0.02 DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
If you read Dowland's comments on the subject, or maybe it was Besard, I do not now remember exactly, the debate/transition was going on at the time and the remark was made that the Thumb Under was not as elegant but acceptable. It is not clear here if the elegant tag was because of sound or appearance. Sometimes it is more important to some people that they look Cool as opposed to sounding good. I would say in light of the last forty years that both methods are acceptable as long as the attack on the strings achieves the same goal of activating both strings in a course. This is a bit more difficult with the thumb out technique but not impossible. With the thumb in it is more easy to accomplish. I have played both ways and there are pros and cons for both methods; sound wise and technical. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? On Dec 16, 2007, at 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote: My point is only that saying there was a change doesn't necessarily tell you how John Wilson or Constantijn Huygens or Charles Hurel played, or what the normal method of playing in Bruges in 1673 was, or any number of specific things that you might bear on how we might want to approach the music. I'd like to have heard the general response to that argument back in 1980, when the cry was: if it was written before 1600 it must be played thumb-under. I quote verbatim one of the gurus of that day, who as far as I can remember was reflecting the general trend of thought at the time. It also doesn't tell you whether more than a half dozen historical players cared at all about where the thumb should go. Well...we were happy enough in the old days to accept as holy writ the views of very few renaissance lutenists. Would there have been a thumb-under revolution at all had Capirola's writings not been discovered? Think of any historical generalization and imagine how significant the exceptions could be. I think I can risk a generalization: we talk differently about lute playing now than we did back in the old purist revisionist days of the 70's and early 80's, presumably because we think differently about it nowadays. Unfortunately, I can't think of any Tom Leher-ism that would support that view. ;-) David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1187 - Release Date: 12/16/2007 11:36 AM
[LUTE] Re: Specialization (was: 8-course?)
Not meaning to be rude, mean, or out of touch, but it seems to me the key is to play really well and choose the material that will interest those who came to listen. Maybe people leave after intermission because the playing is too tedious. - Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Specialization (was: 8-course?) On Nov 29, 2007, at 2:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also believe this road of super-specialization (i.e. _must_ use a 7-course for this piece, _only_ a 9-course for this..., etc.) is an _extremely_ dangerous road to go down for the entire field. ** * How can you program a whole concert that features, for example, Italian Music, 1538-42 or German Music, 1712-20 and have it interest anyone but diehard specialists? Really, really bad example. Lots of ensembles do German Music, 1712-1720. They title it Complete Brandenburgs and sell lots of tickets. This also starts to sound ominously like the philosophy laid out in Milton Babbitt's 1958 essay Who Cares If You Listen? (interestingly, the original title was The Composer as Specialist) stating that it didn't matter if a regular audience of Joe Blows related to a composition at all: what mattered was that the piece remained faithful to a system of arbitrarily selected parameters that were academically accepted by a small group of self-appointed cognoscenti. I think we should let Babbitt speak for himself. I'll just copy a few sentences from Who Cares if You Listen without expressing any opinion about whether it's self-important crap with logical flaws that a retarded chimpanzee would avoid. Why refuse to recognize the possibility that contemporary music has reached a stage long since attained by other forms of activity? The time has passed when the normally well-educated man without special preparation could understand the most advanced work in, for example, mathematics, philosophy, and physics. Advanced music, to the extent that it reflects the knowledge and originality of the informed composer, scarcely can be expected to appear more intelligible than these arts and sciences to the person whose musical education usually has been even less extensive than his background in other fields. But to this, a double standard is invoked, with the words music is music, implying also that music is just music. Why not, then, equate the activities of the radio repairman with those of the theoretical physicist, on the basis of the dictum that physics is physics. The whole essay can be found at http://www.palestrant.com/ babbitt.html#layman. I find Babbitt's prose mildly more palatable than his music. Well, were is Babbitt's music today? Right where it always was. I daresay it has as many rabid fans as it always did -- about 37. Too much artificially academic specialization has lead to the absolute downfall of contemporary music in its entirety as a legitimate cultural force. Contemporary classical music is still present at the university level were it is supported by grants and endowments as if it were some kind of research rather than art. I think this is barking up the wrong tree. All sorts of popular music is as specialized and limited in its way as Babbitt's, but it sells. Lots of blues or country guitarists are more picky about their instruments than lute players are. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/2007 11:10 AM
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
So really it is more a head issue than a tactile one? Interesting but understandable. I have always had problems playing something on someone else's instruments right out of the gate. One has to get acquainted with the Lute to play it, it seems to me. vw - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:05 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? This slow you down aspect is one that I am finally able to address personally after over 35 years of lute playing. I finally got my first 7 course lute last year; an Andreas Holst, 62 cm. SL. All my previous R lutes- 57 to 72 cm- had all been 8 course. (I'm not counting the 10 course and Baroque lutes for this discussion). The slowing down thing is a tactile/mental manifestation rather than a technical feasibility thing. I could always (and frequently did) play anything and everything much too fast on any of my 8 courses- what I feel on the 7 course is an incredible ease and freedom- things flow very naturally; whatever the tempo. Everything in the repertoire that I can fit on this lute just falls under the fingers almost without conscious thought or effort- some pieces now go slower because there's less to fight against. I wish I had gotten this instrument 30 years ago. And it's not that it's a fabulous instrument, it's just very good; but everything about the neck width, thickness, and general proportions works in an ergonomic way that I have never experienced on an 8 course lute- only on my 6 course- which with the 8ve basses is restricted to the earlier stuff. Just my subjective experience here. We do know that Dowland at least had a one-night stand with an 8 course; Sir John Langton's Pavan and the King of Denmark's galliard in the Varietie are genuine 8 course pieces. Another issue is the 10 tied frets on a 9 course lute. (Anyone ever see/build one of those?) Again, read Dowland's comments in the Varietie. -Dan I'm not sure just how an eight course instrument is going to slow you down? Is it not a matter of not playing the strings you do not use or need at the time? In theory, if not fact, it is possible to play many Lute pieces on a six course instrument and never play the sixth or even the fifth course for that matter and this does not seem to be an issue. So if you or anyone else could explain to me how an eight course instrument can slow you down I would be most appreciative. It seems to me that a six course instrument would have the same effect in its limiting access to a large and significant portion of the literature. This might not slow you down physically but musically is another question. The only thing I would add, purely subjective, is that as a performer, a question: Will the 8 course slow you down in the long run? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1157 - Release Date: 11/28/2007 12:29 PM
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
Sean: I understand, a six course instrument is the appropriate instrument for the music you choose to play. But let us assume you also wished to play Molinaro---not good fair for the six course instrument. I know one size fits all is an awful choice given all of the subtleties of period music and its appropriate instrument, but some desire to play all of this stuff but don't have the financial resources to purchase another Lute or two. So for a good portion of us having one instrument for everything is the only reasonable choice. VW - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Yep, I've followed this baby too. And thought it finally almost settled down till these paragraphs, Vance. So if you or anyone else could explain to me how an eight course instrument can slow you down I would be most appreciative. It seems to me that a six course instrument would have the same effect in its limiting access to a large and significant portion of the literature. This might not slow you down physically but musically is another question. What would slow me down would be to buy another instrument type and choosing yet another rep to play. I had an 8c (ok, still do) and I've made my choice of limits. Limits are good things. Some play lutes also; some play lutes only; some play only baroque or ren lutes The Lute is what it is, and as such it is an instrument possessing many strings. If anyone is going to progress beyond the first part of the Sixteenth Century they are going to have to deal with many strings. There seems to be an assumption here of progress meaning moving temporally forward in time. Ie, Johnson is good but to progress one should go to whoever followed him. I don't buy it. I don't want to move on from my chosen repertory. I've got more than my remaining lifetime's worth of music within the 6-c rep. Yes, I miss playing some Terzis, Molinaros, Cuttings and Dowlands but I don't need to spread myself thinner. Instead I apply myself more focused on my daCremas, Gintzlers and Spinacinos. Even if I were a beginner now it would be perfectly authentic to play a 6-c for an entire lifetime. Plenty did and were no less the lutenist for it. Slow me down. Fa. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/2007 11:10 AM
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? (fwd)
The Cambridge Manuscript seems to indicate that the latest Dowland of the time was grouped together with F. DaMilano in the same book. VW - Original Message - From: Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? (fwd) I would think that in the old times, a lutenist would mostly play music from his or her time. They obviously would not play anything from their future, but I am sure they were mostly not too interested in music of the past, except perhaps for a few master works. I doubt that lutenists were into early music the way we are. Which means that if we are really trying to recreate the sprit of those times we to should probably select one time period and stick with it. Wayne From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm a little perplexed by this discussion. Is the assertion being made that lutenists who played 10c lutes at the inception of these instruments only played music specifically written for 10c and ceased playing music that appeared before unless they also had a 6c, 7c or 8c instrument? In the 10c repertoire a given piece of music will sometimes go several measures without anything happening in the bourdons. Would not these passages be subject to the same problems supposedly accompanying (accompaning?) the playing of 6c, 7c or 8c music on the 10c? Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 11/29/2007 11:10 AM
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
I don't think you can make that argument even though we do it. The We we are discussing happen to be a group of Historically Correct Mavens that look at the issues of historical correctness more closely than we look at the practicality of the things at hand; like the number of strings on our respective Lutes. If I could get a decent sound out of a wooden cigar box strung with rubber bands I might be tempted to play the thing, lacking anything more musical to accomplish the task of playing a tune thought not suitable for the instrument at hand. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? On Nov 26, 2007, at 6:54 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: Do we have any evidence of a 16th- or 17th-century lutenist refusing to play a piece, because his lute had one or two courses more than necessary? I would say yes, we do. The evidence being that we ourselves do it today. I realize that's not anything that a historian/musicologist would be willing to accept as evidence, but nevertheless if we are going to evaluate our experience in the light of what people did centuries ago, then we have to allow that evaluation to work both ways. Our ideas are evolving, just as theirs did. We operate according to our own 20th-century lute mythology: the renaissance meaning the 16th century; until quite recently the 58-60 cm 8-course lute in G tuning as the standard all-purpose default renaissance lute; thumb- under as the compulsory right-hand renaissance lute technique; FAP (Fast-As-Possible) as the standard speed for all diminutions etc. etc. And the evolutionary process continues: more recently, right- hand fingers extended, and thumb sort of out?? but not quite?? as the currently standard right-hand Baroque lute technique; plus we're evolving single-strung archlutes and amplified lutes...all grist to the mill of our modern-day myth-making. So with regard to playing on 6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-whatever courses, I believe it's completely valid historically to go with whatever our personal preferences are. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1157 - Release Date: 11/28/2007 12:29 PM
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
I agree to a point David, I think a six course instrument strung in the Continental style will probably be a better choice for F. DaMilano's music. But; try playing Molinaro's music on that instrument and you miss a lot of the music played in the base registers. My point is that in an ideal world we would all have every Lute configuration possible so that we could do justice to every piece of music we encounter. Knowing that most of us do not have the financial resource with which to explore such an approach we have to find what is within our means and go with that until fate or fortune provides us with better options. For me that option is in making my own instruments---but not everyone can do that either. By the way I did not say they were any good they simply suit my needs for now. VW - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? On Nov 28, 2007, at 3:37 PM, vance wood wrote: The We we are discussing happen to be a group of Historically Correct Mavens that look at the issues of historical correctness more closely than we look at the practicality of the things at hand Hi Vance, Certainly we've all been known to do that at times. But it seems to me (the Great Disclaimer) that generally speaking (another Great Disclaimer) most HIP afficionados will take historical purism as far as it takes to satisfy their intellectual curiosity, and beyond that will do exactly what musicians have always done: whatever's necessary to make good music. In other words, every musician starts with the specifics of his or her chosen instrument, and will sooner or later move on to the general considerations of good music in whatever guise they choose to play it in. That's my belief anyway. This whole discussion about 8-c lutes seems to be two-pronged: our sense of historical correctness vs. our personal musical preferences. I guess my point is that I don't see those two things as incompatible. David Rastall ; like the number of strings on our respective Lutes. If I could get a decent sound out of a wooden cigar box strung with rubber bands I might be tempted to play the thing, lacking anything more musical to accomplish the task of playing a tune thought not suitable for the instrument at hand. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? On Nov 26, 2007, at 6:54 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: Do we have any evidence of a 16th- or 17th-century lutenist refusing to play a piece, because his lute had one or two courses more than necessary? I would say yes, we do. The evidence being that we ourselves do it today. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1157 - Release Date: 11/28/2007 12:29 PM
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
I'm not sure just how an eight course instrument is going to slow you down? Is it not a matter of not playing the strings you do not use or need at the time? In theory, if not fact, it is possible to play many Lute pieces on a six course instrument and never play the sixth or even the fifth course for that matter and this does not seem to be an issue. So if you or anyone else could explain to me how an eight course instrument can slow you down I would be most appreciative. It seems to me that a six course instrument would have the same effect in its limiting access to a large and significant portion of the literature. This might not slow you down physically but musically is another question. The Lute is what it is, and as such it is an instrument possessing many strings. If anyone is going to progress beyond the first part of the Sixteenth Century they are going to have to deal with many strings. I want to add something here: I am not challenging anyone to a flame war. I know it is hard to tell tone of voice from an email and depending on the passion one has for a certain subject words are often taken as challenges when they are not meant to be such. So all due respects to all who have contributed to this discussion, I respect both you and your opinions. VW - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? As a musicologist, I think Martin has such a lucid description that I'm totally persuaded.. And rereading all the insights I can tell that ppl have really thought this through. The only thing I would add, purely subjective, is that as a performer, a question: Will the 8 course slow you down in the long run? And my experience is that it does, if that is your main lute. Again, everyone is different. But I think it changes the idea of practicality versus authenticity to practicality versus deveolping skill. I'm not saying that you can't be a great artist on an 8c, I think it just isn't the best tool for the job. Having said that, if you have a really nice 8c, don't trade it in for an Aria. And there are some pieces that it is great on. dt At 03:04 PM 11/28/2007, you wrote: I agree to a point David, I think a six course instrument strung in the Continental style will probably be a better choice for F. DaMilano's music. But; try playing Molinaro's music on that instrument and you miss a lot of the music played in the base registers. My point is that in an ideal world we would all have every Lute configuration possible so that we could do justice to every piece of music we encounter. Knowing that most of us do not have the financial resource with which to explore such an approach we have to find what is within our means and go with that until fate or fortune provides us with better options. For me that option is in making my own instruments---but not everyone can do that either. By the way I did not say they were any good they simply suit my needs for now. VW - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? On Nov 28, 2007, at 3:37 PM, vance wood wrote: The We we are discussing happen to be a group of Historically Correct Mavens that look at the issues of historical correctness more closely than we look at the practicality of the things at hand Hi Vance, Certainly we've all been known to do that at times. But it seems to me (the Great Disclaimer) that generally speaking (another Great Disclaimer) most HIP afficionados will take historical purism as far as it takes to satisfy their intellectual curiosity, and beyond that will do exactly what musicians have always done: whatever's necessary to make good music. In other words, every musician starts with the specifics of his or her chosen instrument, and will sooner or later move on to the general considerations of good music in whatever guise they choose to play it in. That's my belief anyway. This whole discussion about 8-c lutes seems to be two-pronged: our sense of historical correctness vs. our personal musical preferences. I guess my point is that I don't see those two things as incompatible. David Rastall ; like the number of strings on our respective Lutes. If I could get a decent sound out of a wooden cigar box strung with rubber bands I might be tempted to play the thing, lacking anything more musical to accomplish the task of playing a tune thought not suitable for the instrument at hand. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? On Nov 26, 2007, at 6:54 PM, Stewart McCoy
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the eight course Lute et al, but from a modern stand-point, and a musician's probable limited income, it is still the best choice for the student, and armature player, who wants one instrument capable of playing a wide range of music with a minimum of re-tuning. All of the arguments for other configurations and contrary to the eight course instrument are all valid, but the logistics remain and the choice is clear, with an eight course instrument your access to the most music for the least spent resource is still eight courses. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Ed I keep my 7c at D, and then stop it down for F. Of course this means the7c is no longer open, which no doubt does effect the way the string resonates. So there is a compromise, involved. I would agree that in gut, the additional 8c is not so much of a problem, for 6c or 7c music. However, how many beginners keep their lutes in gut? Probably more important than choosing between 8c and 7c, is finding a good lute, and then succeeding in stringing it well. It took me about two years to find the best stringing for my lute. Even now, I am still ready to experiment. Initially, I found my Gerle a little bass heavy, as Jacob Heringman told me I would, saying approximately that as the Gerle had a deeper body, it would have a plummy bass, an explosive sound but with not so much sustain. That is in contrast to the Venere that might be brighter with a more sustained sound and possibly less rich bass. Using Venice twine has helped balance that out a little better. Presumably, in the case of the Venere, it might be too much of a good thing, but I haven't tried. Regards Anthony Le 27 nov. 07 =E0 01:26, Edward Martin a ecrit : I agree fully with Stewart. Although there is more music for 7 course and 9 course lutes as compared to 8 course lutes, an 8 course is a good compromise. I have that very instrument, an 8 course. A great majority of the music for which I use that instrument is for 7 course, but it is so very convenient to have both a low F _and_ D, so I do not have to re-tune the 7th course. I also sometimes put octaves on both the 4th and 5th course, so I can play Continental 6 course music. In gut, it sound absolutely no different from other 6 course lutes in gut. ed At 11:54 PM 11/26/2007 +, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear All, Unlike many of the contributors to this thread, I don't have a problem with 8-course lutes. They suit Terzi and Molinaro, of course, but you can use them to play earlier music like Capirola, and to some extent later music where nine or ten courses are required. If you want to buy many instruments, by all means buy a 6-course for Milano, a 7-course for (some) Dowland, an 8-course for Terzi, a 9-course for Francisque, a 10-course for Vallet, and then splash out on an 11-course for Mouton, a 12-course for Wilson, and a 13-course for Weiss. Why stop there? Why not spend a few more thousand quid on various sorts of theorbo and archlute, and throw in a mandora or two? If, instead, you want to compromise, and not fill your house with lutes, simply buy one 8-course lute, at least to start with. Having low F and D as open strings is useful for Dowland, you don't have the complexities of a lute with lots of strings, and you can happily play anything from the 16th century. If a note is too low for one's instrument, either play it an octave higher, or re-tune the lowest course down a tone (e.g. 8th-course D to C), as Capirola did (from 6th-course G to F). More significant than the number of strings, is the tuning of the strings, i.e. whether or not to tune the 4th and 5th courses in octaves. That makes far more difference to the sound than the number of courses. If I might add to what Ron has written, the heart-shaped Pesaro manuscript copied in the 15th century, contains music for a 7- course instrument; the music in Osborn fb7 is for a 7-course lute, and dates from about 1630. Plus =E7a change, plus c'est la m=EAme chose. Do we have any evidence of a 16th- or 17th-century lutenist refusing to play a piece, because his lute had one or two courses more than necessary? Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Bocchicchio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:42 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? Dear Michael, G=F6ran all: While G=F6ran gives an eloquent summary of our received notion of the development multiple courses on lutes throughout the 16th century, there is evidence that the matter was not quite so clearly defined. No surprise. H. Colin Slim, in his excellent article, 'Musicians on Parnassus,' (Studies in the
[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?
- Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? The only down side to that point of view is that occasionally you have to re-tune the seventh course and finger notes that would normally be played open. Other than that you are correct. My Lady Hunsdon's Puff, or Puss depending on which interpretation of ancient spelling you adhere to, is a good example. Most of S. Molinaro's music is another where having eight courses is an advantage---but who is counting? VW - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard? This subject comes up regularly here. My two yen: There is hardly anything written specifically for 8 course that cannot be played on 7 course. There is far more music for 7 course than 8 course. 7 course is easier than 8 course. You just have to have a little awareness of what your 7th is tuned to so that you don't begin a piece and discover that the 7th is at the wrong pitch half way through the piece. I usually write tuning reminders on the set list or arrange it in an obvious way so that like tunings are together. cheers, On Nov 26, 2007, at 9:48 PM, G. Crona wrote: Hi Michael, when I got my first lute in the early 80's, after playing lute music on guitar since the early 60's, my teacher recommended an 8-course, arguing in favour of a versatile instrument which could be used for a time span of roughly the whole 16th century. As you know, course development was roughly: 6c - ca. 1500-ca. 1575; 7c - ca. 1565 - 1590; 8c - ca. 1585 - 1600; 9c - ca. 1600 - 1615; 10c ca. 1615 - 1630; 11c - thereafter aso. (with slight overlappings). For me, the switch from 6 string guitar to 8 course lute was a _steep_ learning curve, with the thumb under and all. Not so much for the left as for the right hand. After several years of unsatisfying trial, I decided, that my synapses were not coping and that I wasn't enjoying it very much, in spite of the silvery sound, so I sold the instrument although it was a very fine one. I've often held the view on this list, that for a lute novice, or the transition from guitar should preferably be to a 6c (or a 7c with the 7th removed) and playing the 1500 to ca. 1570 repertory. After a year or two, when the hands have been properly trained, and are familiar with the instrument, one could progress to 7c for a year and then 8c for a year and so on. In this way the student will have a natural progression, and at the same time get familiar with the repertory and all its characteristics for the different epochs and regional differences. The 6c will be much easier to play on, and therefore give a higher feeling of mastering it all and consequently be more rewarding. The ground work will then be set, and I believe that further development will be quicker and more effective. Others will perhaps argue, that you can remove the 7th and 8th course in the beginning and add them when progressing which is certainly an option, but I think that there are many other issues when approaching the music, which speak for playing on the right instrument. (Right number of courses, right width and breadth of neck aso. although again, some will argue that there never was any right measures, and that lutists/lutenists in those days differed as much then as they do now.) But IMV all this talk about HIP somewhat looses its meaning, if not played on an instrument for which the music was intended. I also think that much of the virtuoso polyphonic music beginning around ca. 1560 should be played on a smaller, perhaps even descant lute, as the stretches are sometimes forbidding on an instrument with a long mensur, however better the sound. So to answer your question plainly: Yes, the eight course is best suited for a short span of english and italian music in the last decade of the 16th century. The reasons for it becoming the instrument par exellence for beginners today might have something to do with the lute-revival in the early to mid 20th c. starting mainly in England, (but I'm on thin ice there), and the traditional belief thereby to be getting a versatile instrument where the advantages excel the drawbacks. If the student plans to go into lute playing seriously, and not just as a nice pastime, get a 6 - or 7c first, and that will work much better and be both more enjoyable and lead to more effective learning in the long run. If you prefer Baroque, (and this indeed seems to be the preference nowadays, at least with the posters on this list) I don't know if it would perhaps be better to get an 11 - course from the start and just learn to cope with all the extra courses, or spend a couple of years on a 6 course first
[LUTE] Re: Dowland
Actually I would rather listen to the music. It seems the musician is rather good and I would have liked to have heard him without the lecture which I could not understand. - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Dowland Dear G., I would rather listen to the music or to the speaker, but not both at the same time. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 7:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbHDT0qGTA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.5/1149 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 10:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Not meaning to be confrontational, but does anyone know of an historical example of a single strung Archlute? My impression is that this is nothing more than a Guitar like instrument with a lot of extra base strings shaped like a Lute. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Bruno Correia [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding 8) Mathias Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: No, it is a single-strung archlute. Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than the customary g lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the best solution. Firstly, I did it on a g lute, but D major is awkward on a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. ed At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: Is this a baroque lute? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Thanks for sharing that link Roman, it's nice to be informed about something I did not know existed. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang%C3%A9lique_%28instrument%29 RT From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not meaning to be confrontational, but does anyone know of an historical example of a single strung Archlute? My impression is that this is nothing more than a Guitar like instrument with a lot of extra base strings shaped like a Lute. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Bruno Correia [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding 8) Mathias Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: No, it is a single-strung archlute. Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than the customary g lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the best solution. Firstly, I did it on a g lute, but D major is awkward on a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. ed At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: Is this a baroque lute? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM
[LUTE] Re: Neck section thumb over
Excellent summary Anthony. The iconography does in fact portray the thumb over on an abundance of Lutes of six courses or less. The fact that Variety of Lute Lessons does not mention it, that I recall, only shows that the added number of strings dictated a change in technique. Unless you have a very large hand or a very small Lute, thumbing over a seven course or greater Lute seems to me to not be possible, or practical, except by someone trying to prove a point. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Luca Manassero [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 6:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Neck section thumb over Oups, yet another problem, I am all thumbs it seems. Luca and All First, I should apologize to all left-handed players, such as Jean- Marie, since I am going to take it for granted that all you lefties are just mirror-image right handers, as most lutists do when talking about left-hand and right-hand technique. As Denys Stephens implies in his article, which I quoted previously, much work has been done on rediscovering Renaissance right-hand technique. I was struck by how close Jacob Heringman's hand position is to the portrait that could be of Francesco, on Arthur's site. However, rather less has been done on left hand techniques. It is probable for example that where a barring can be used to avoid thumb over, most players will do that, even if Renaissance players might not have done so. The reasons for this could be complex, first the neck shapes, as you have pointed out are not always historic (guitarists have often preferred a wider shallower neck), and do not easily allow such a hand position. Also, Carlos Gonzales, lutemaker, suggested to the French list that Renaissance string spacing was much narrower than is the case at the moment. Then most specialist Renaissance lute players, such as JH play various lute sizes from 6c to 10c. They can maintain the same right hand movement, with slight variation, but going even from a 6c to a 7c would radically change left hand technique. Some lutists have even suggested that thumb-over would have stopped with the change from 5c to 6c lutes. Personally, I think the change would have been progressive, and probably the technique would have coexisted with barring on 6c lutes. A further reason could be that most players think that while the historic right hand technique improves projection and effects the pulse of the music, historic left hand technique would not make all that much difference to the music produced. I think the difference between Baroque and Renaissance right-hand technique would have have a greater effect than any left hand shift, but I do think that the early Renaissance left hand technique could effect speed and pulse to a certain extent. Denys Stephens would be able to discuss this better, as I believe he sometimes uses both these techniques. Many lutists are also ex-classical guitarists, and the thumb-over is almost considered as vulgar and popular in the worse sense, rather than somehow being seen as folk musicians having carried on older techniques, that were not in the least scorned in the past. Denys rather thinks that thumb-over is a natural way of playing if barring does not become essential. Barring might become essential in chordal music, but not at all natural in a polyphonous music. The Hungarian psycholinguist, Ivan Fonagy, developed a theory of the Semiotics of secondary speech features, in which he claimed that any vocal gesture that is not an essential functional part of a language tends take on a symbolic interpretation. Thus lip-rounding, in a language that does not use lip-rounding significantly, is often interpreted as mouthing the shape of a kiss (a problem for English speakers, particularly men, when learning the French front rounded vowels), while the very wide-open back vowels of Standard British English (as in car) are often shunned by French women students, who have always learnt to speak with the most closed vowels possible (widely opening the mouth even to laugh, can be considered unacceptable in some cultures, where women may even cover their mouth politely while laughing). Fonagy suggested that rolling the Rs in a language that no longer has the rolled R, could be associated with rudely poking out the tongue, or as an expression of rustic virility, while replacing the R with W, or dropping it completely, a sign of extreme effectedness (Les Incoyables (Fr. Incroyables) of the French Directoire, c.1800). Thus wiggling your thumb at the audience over the top of your lute neck for a musician for whom this is not part of his lute culture, could also take on some similar gestural role, that somehow is just rather difficult to come to terms with. Finally, for this sort of left hand technique to be resurrected we would
[LUTE] Re: Hopkinson Smith on silence and lute playing
How about a link? - Original Message - From: Tobias Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 4:12 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hopkinson Smith on silence and lute playing Dear Sirs, I got a newsletter (#3) from the homepage of Hopkinson Smith the other day. He has writtern such a beautiful text on silence and lute playing. Please take your time and read it. All the best Tobias Neumann To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/ - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
You cannot argue with a Guitar player about fixed metal frets, especially if their only exposure to the Lute is at a distance. They have to have first hand experience with gut frets and the fineness of the sound before they start to grasp the significance of them. Don't even try discussing different temperament, that's like having that discussion with a piano player. - Original Message - From: Narada [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Alan Hoyle' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 3:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings A tiny dot on the 3rd, 5th and 7th for me, only because as a geeetarist I like the reference it gives me, so I've carried it over to the lute. I'd also like the lists opinion on fixed metal frets, I had a rather heated discussion with a classical guitarist recently who was very critical of what he called the 'plastic frets' that we lutenists use. -Original Message- From: Alan Hoyle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 November 2007 19:43 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.21/1109 - Release Date: 11/4/2007 11:05 AM
[LUTE] Re: Good morning everyone! - New person
Hi Joshua: As you will find most people on this list came to the Lute by way of the Guitar, most and not all. The Lute is a totally different instrument but has enough similarities to confuse the issues of technique and musicianship. I hope you enjoy the Lute because once bitten by it you are hooked. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Joshua E. Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Good morning everyone! - New person Hi everyone! -- I am new to the Lute Society of America general mailing list. My name is Joshua, I'm 21 and I live in Texas. I have had interests in Lutes for a very long time. I owned my first Arabic Oud several years ago. But my expirence with stringed instruments starts 11 years ago with Guitar lessons. I played Oud for a short while then my Oud (because I had never played before) it was a cheaply made Oud and it broke! - I mainly play Lute music on my acoustic guitar in Renaissance tuning. So I have been playing guitar for 11 years and Oud for about a year I played it, and Lute music just started this year officially. I look forward to talking about Lutes! Joshua -- Joshua E. Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM
[LUTE] Re: Good morning everyone! - New person
I assume you are using tablature? You must learn to play tablature or you are cutting yourself off from 90% of the material available for the Lute, most of which has never been transposed into staff notation. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Joshua E. Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Good morning everyone! - New person Hi Vance, Thanks for the welcome! =] I have had my eye on getting a Lute for a long time. However I am unemployed at the moment (I am a mentally-ill stricken person) who has trouble dealing with crowds and stress and also other things. SO I have trouble keeping jobs. I was however, able to trade one of my laptops that I had to my brother for a new acoustic guitar he had. (mine was broken). I had been playing guitar for about 11 years now. I tuned the guitar to Renaissance Lute tuning as soon as I got it. Ive got a chart of Lute chords and Im looking at different Lute lessons online. So that's where Im at right now. -- Joshua E. Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM
[LUTE] Re: Inlay in neck.
No, most necks are veneered to begin with, they are not made entirely of solid hard wood as you might see on the surface. I am sure there are exceptions to this but for the most part a solid hard wood neck would prove to be too heavy in relation to the rest of the instrument. Most necks have a core of something like Poplar which is light weight and stable. Most of the hardwoods you see on Lute necks are highly figured woods and would be highly unstable if milled into an entire neck, or they might be Ebony which is incredibly heavy. Neither one of the two afore mentioned items make for a good solid Lute neck. The inlays you refer to are generally made from two pieces of veneer one with the negative image the other with the positive. In this way the Luthier has two inlay patterns for two different Lutes cut at the same time. - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 11:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Inlay in neck. I was handling an Italian baroque lute tonight, and noticed about 10 pieces of inlay running the length of the neck. It was a nice lute, and I'm sure the builder knows tons about lute building, but still I wonder whether such inlay weakens the neck to any significant degree. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.11/1071 - Release Date: 10/15/2007 6:48 AM
[LUTE] Re: longbows lutes
Roman; you are correct but there is one caveat, it takes a lifetime of practice and training to become a competent archer and a couple of weeks to learn to shoot an harquebus, if you don't blow your own head off first. That one fact caused the doom of the military archer. You could line up waves of harquebus's and put a pretty devastating amount of destruction down range that went through almost any thing and every thing that was hit, including the armored Knight. VW - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: longbows lutes Possibly. However a sense of humer is not really useful in jurisprudence. It can be as this judge shows. http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTcyN2UzMDE3NGNhNGFlZjU0YjMzOWE1YzkxMjk0NWE= Too bad. The arquebus was supremely effective against archers. RT Actually not so much. Archers could fling many more arrows down range than arquebusiers could fire rounds, and in a shorter period of time. Loading times for the early muzzle loaders was horrific. If you wanted to achieve anything like rapid fire the archers had it all over the gunners. Powder was notoriously fickle, and the bloody things are just plain heavy compared to even a heavy crossbow. Then there's range and accuracy to consider. They were more effective against charging infantry and cavalry. Regards, Craig Arquebisiers did a splendid job during the Battle of Pavia in 1525, mowing down the French army. RT _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1066 - Release Date: 10/12/2007 11:10 AM
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Rép : [LUTE] Re: G ut strings - Tennis-Lute loveALL
I can only give you an opinion understanding that I am not a Tennis player. You are to a certain extent comparing apples and oranges. Gut for musical instrument strings imparts a better tamber to the sound of the Lute, giving it warm over-tones that nylon can not. However; nylon strings are stronger and more resilient making the tone of a Lute a bit more crisp and strident, the very qualities you may be looking for in a tennis racket. This is just my opinion and my thoughts on the subject. There is probably a vast difference in the way nylon for tennis rackets is drawn than for musical instruments. Vance - Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ariel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 7:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Rép : [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - Tennis-Lute loveALL Are there any lutists who also play tennis and use gut for both? How If you live in a place like Brussels, a gut-strung racket will reduce the joy of outdoor tennis to approximateley 2 hours per year :-))) When I was young there were only gut-strung wooden rackets. I remember many years later how Bjoern Borg tried to revive this, I saw a match in Hamburg. No chance! do you feel about this? Is there any common research between the makers of gut for both activities? In 17th century France there were also lutes and the jeu de paume (court tennis - there was a court in Versailles, for example. BH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.8/973 - Release Date: 8/25/2007 5:00 PM
[LUTE] Re: Octave anomaly
If the strings have been on the instrument for a while one or the other of the two strings may have become false because the pressure on the fret has taken it out of round in that location. I would determine which of the two is truly false then unhitch the string, turn it around and re-install it backwards so to speak. This will give you a fresh area of string that has not been corrupted by the action of the frets and should clear up the problem. - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 4:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Octave anomaly Magi delle corde: This may not be truly anomalous, but it's a problem I've noticed with the octave stringing on my 6th course. I'm using all gut from Dan Larsen on my 590 mm g lute. I've been very satisfied with the sound and feel of the strings. Here's the problem: My 6th course has a Pistoy twist fundamental with a standard treble for the octave. When I fret the course (for some reason this is almost always at the 3rd fret, Bb), the additional stiffness of the fundamental (from thickness?) causes it to sound noticeably (to my poor ears) sharper than its octave. My solution has been to tune the fundy down ever so slightly so that both open and fretted notes are almost in tune. Tuning the octave up a bit is unsatisfactory since it so obviously clashes with the Bb's on the 1st and 3rd courses. Anybody else have this problem? Solutions? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/958 - Release Date: 8/17/2007 2:31 PM
[LUTE] Re: Ave Maria by Tromboncino
I could be really wrong, but not so far as to not be plausible; the Lute player my have put together his/her own part. Not only is this possible it is historical. Vance Wood - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 11:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Ave Maria by Tromboncino Dear fellow lutenists, I am looking for the music of Ave Maria by B. Tromboncino. I have a CD with Marco Beasley and Accordone were this piece is recorded and in the programme notes it says that it is taken from the Ms. Vmd 27 in Paris. I have this facsimile and in fact there are two pieces that are called Ave Maria but the lute accompaniment seems to be completely different than the two recordings of this piece that I have listened. I have been puzzled by this for a long time now and I would really appreciate some help from you on this matter. I have uploaded the Accordone version at the address below: http://www.lutevoice.com/avemaria/Ave_Maria.mp3 Do any of you know how to find this piece? Thanks in advance for your help, Greetings, Alfonso To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.12/910 - Release Date: 7/21/2007 3:52 PM
