[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2023-07-18 at 02:05 +, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be
> > different languages.
> 
> BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, 

There's also this project:

https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/


-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 14:14 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/30/21 1:50 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> > At Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:41:47 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> > 
> > > That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
> > > are better at hosting MTAs?
> > 
> > Almost certainly.
> 
> Any suggestions/recommendations?

Vultr, RamNode, and HostUS are solid ones.

-Jim P. 


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sun, 2020-09-20 at 23:40 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
> On Sun, 2020-09-20 at 18:23 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > > I imagine ARC support is something Jim Popovitch would like to have.
> 
> > You imagine wrong.
> 
> OK, so you don't believe in providing features that other users want.


blinking.gif

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sun, 2020-09-20 at 18:23 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> I wrote:
> 
>  > > >> I'm pretty sure that at least for now I[1] can configure a
>  > > >> system to run Mailman 2 so that none of the above matters
> 
> "None of the above" includes other crypto.
> 
>  > > > I'm pretty sure that's pure FUD.
> 
> I do not agree.  Besides being able to talk SMTP (and some people have
> used it, though I'm sure it's very few nowadays), Mailman 2 talks DNS
> (for DMARC) although I am not sure it can deal with secure DNS (in
> fact, I'm not sure anyone can ;-).  DNS over HTTPS (DOH) is coming,
> which implies TLS.  

You're on the Mailman Cabal and that's what you came up with?!?

> Mailman 3's ARC handler has to do both encryption
> and decryption for ARC and decryption for DKIM, and that would be
> fairly easy to port (I'm pretty sure the underlying libraries are 2/3
> compatible).  (Ports are fair game because we're talking "future", and
> I imagine ARC support is something Jim Popovitch would like to have.)

You imagine wrong. I see ARC as a piece of the delivery phase, Mailman
should sit well before that.  Let's be realistic, nobody says "I'm gonna
ditch my MTA and replace it with Mailman", just like nobody says "I'm
going to process MLM email without a caching DNS resolver".  

> Any secure version of those protocols that Mailman 2 doesn't have
> could Mailman unusable if some important partner decides to require
> it.

> I'm sure I'm missing stuff, too.  So no, it may not be more likely
> than not (given current status of "EOL"), but it's not pure FUD.  And
> if the "reopen Mailman 2 for features" crowd has its way, the
> likelihood goes up IMO (because I don't think they're likely to
> succeed in getting a sufficiently stable port of Mailman 2 to Python
> 3).

Challenge accepted! Gauntlet: If we succeed, I challenge you to retire
immediately.

(You're right Barry, this is fun!)  

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:56 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/17/20 2:27 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> > Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
> > with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
> > doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
> > but I do see value in those things.
> 
> No just a need for a 15 year out-dated user interface and a MLM that 
> requires an EOL version of Python. Otherwise Mailman 3 can behave in the 
> same manner as Mailman 2. The installation of Mailman 3 takes an hour. 
> That includes OS, web server, database, MTA and python 3. All of the 
> complexity you continue to gripe about is, to use your word, fud.

The age of a product shouldn't determine it's usefulness.  Is Mark less
useful because of his age?  WTF dude?  

I don't get how you are a champion of mm3 being a simple install. You do
realize this list's archive is full of your problems with mm3, right? 
That, and you had to replace 2/3 of mm3 to get what you wanted?  How is
that easy, and how is that done in 1 hour?

> 
> > That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
> > your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
> > users want.
> 
> There it is again. A use of a word meant to imply something negative. 
> Affinity and Empathy are not "workarounds". They are modern interfaces 
> that I developed because I host MANY list owners with all kinds of 
> requirements. I also wanted something to set apart myself from other 
> potential competitors. I am still using Postorius and Hyperkitty to for 
> Mailman 3 hosting clients. They are still fine to work with.
> 
> So your users don't want to use a MLM that works just like Mailman 2? 
> Mailman 3 can just be that but the potential to be more is there, a 
> potential that Mailman 2 does not have.
> 
> 
> > Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
> > Mailman 3 work for you.
> 
> Again a disingenuous remark. You pull the same bs with Stephen all the 
> time. Mailman 3 works fine apart from Affinity/Empathy. I accomplished a 
> bold marketing and brand move with those two applications. You wouldn't 
> understand that. 

I do understand it, it's just that your business doesn't matter one way
or the other to me.  I get the sense that you might think we are MLM
competitors, we're not.  You have a MLM business, I just host a few
lists for others at my expense.

> I am no longer on the same playing field with budget 
> hosts. I have set my company apart from them. Why because Mailman 3 gave 
> me the ability to do that. Mailman 2 did not.
> 
> > My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
> > reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
> > else, but why?
> 
> Then why bring them up as a reason to not use MM3?

They were a bullet point in a list of bullet points, nothing more.

> 
> > > Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to
> > > Mailman 3 within a day.
> > I won't be your salesman.
> 
> Yet you have been in the past. Jimmy, did I offend you???

In the past I simply sent someone to you because they came to me asking
to pay me to do a mm3 migration. I told them I was no fan, but that you
were.  I don't get your "Jimmy" comment, but whatever dude.

> > I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.
> 
> Not anymore ridiculous as your proposals to work harder to keep an EOL 
> MLM application alive when its replacement is alive and well.

I'm curious, do you get a new car every year when the dealership
replaces last year's model?

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
> > prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
> > installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
> > admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.
> 
> It's because you don't want to be sold. 

Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
but I do see value in those things.

> But I will say this, what you 
> want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different 
> things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list 
> owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or 
> posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a 
> tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations 
> are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible 
> with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be 
> swayed to use Mailman 3.

That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
users want.

> Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: 
> "you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't. 

Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
Mailman 3 work for you.

> I think 
> the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make 
> up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2.  You don't want to go 
> through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you 
> can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. 
> However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.

My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
else, but why?

> > > I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
> > > <https://www.mailop.org/about/>;;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.
> > They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
> > how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
> > server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
> > is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
> > version:
> > 
> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
> >  this time via Outlook
> > X-BeenThere:mai...@mailop.org
> > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
> > Precedence: list
> > List-Id: For mail operators 
> > 
> > 
> > I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
> > it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
> > moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.
> 
> Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to 
> Mailman 3 within a day.

I won't be your salesman. 

> > > It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
> > > archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
> > > importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
> > > `django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.
> > > 
> > > I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
> > > the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
> > > mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
> > > multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
> > > <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891998>;;. Brian's take is at
> > > <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892066>;;.
> > > 
> > I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
> > detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
> > second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3.
> > Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
> > if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
> > people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
> > point?
> > 
> > -Jim P.
> 
> I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are 
> *inflexible* in your i

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 09:07 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 8:04 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > > Forward to where?
> > 
> > Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
> > there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
> > To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
> > something that people know, and something that meets their needs.
> 
> The EOL notices were clarified to mean "no new features" I committed to
> continue to fix critical bugs and security issues going forward.

I can't say this enough, Thank you for clarifying that issue because it
does mean a lot to a lot of people when it comes from you.

> If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
> it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
> desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
> for years.)

That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.

> 
> > Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
> > pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
> > mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
> <https://www.mailop.org/about/>;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
version: 

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
this time via Outlook
X-BeenThere: mai...@mailop.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: For mail operators 


I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.


> It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
> archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
> importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
> `django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.
> 
> I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
> the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
> mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
> multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891998>;. Brian's take is at
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892066>;.
> 

I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3. 
Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
point? 

-Jim P.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 7:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
> > can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
> > mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
> > and/or Flask, etc.
> 
> Or they can just continue to use Mailman 2.1 with Python 2.7, and no one
> needs to do anything.
> 
> 
> > What I'm trying to do is
> > provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
> > those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
> > issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.
> 
> Forward to where?

Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
something that people know, and something that meets their needs.

Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:13 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
> > web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
> > Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> > process.
> 
> I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
> examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
> what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
> add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
> lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.

Would it though?  Is that conjecture or based on available data that can
be analyzed?  Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
and/or Flask, etc.  All those current mm2 admins get to continue life as
they normally do.  They save a weekend (or a month in some cases) and
some even save some $$, by not having to significantly change their
Mailman installation or server size, etc.  What I'm trying to do is
provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 18:47 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
>  > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
>  > > You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit 
> bit
>  > > to do any of that.
>  > > 
>  > > You just do it.
>  > 
>  > Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.
> 
> No, that is *all* this conversation is about.  You need to persuade us
> to give you what you want.  If you don't speak to our interests, you
> won't get it.
> 
>  > You keep taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused
>  > on product preservation.
> 
> I care very little about product preservation for Mailman 2 (it's
> complete subordinate to user service in the sense that it would be a
> nice to have if there's zero risk to user support), and you need
> *nothing* from us to do it, anyway.
> 
> Pragmatically, users are *all* I care about in the Mailman 2 world.
> And I'm quite sure that's what the rest of GNU Mailman (the software
> development project) thinks, too.  Note well: I am not their elected
> representative, but I believe my statements are generally
> representative of their beliefs about the user base and their values.
> If you think otherwise, get in touch with them off list, since they
> aren't posting that I'm full of nonsense on list (ie, maybe they're
> just not listening here).
> 
>  > There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you feel I need
>  > to fit in the role you define for me?
> 
> You don't need to fit into any role in the Mailman project.  You have
> the code, you have access to Launchpad or Github or Gitlab or
> SourceForge, and you have and will have access to this mailing list.
> 
> But if you don't care about users, you're not part of the team.
> You're a lone ranger.
> 
>  > Who's users?  ;-)
> 
> The Mailman Project's users, and in particular subscribers and admins
> of Mailman 2 sites and lists.
> 
>  > I think, based on this thread, you are going to have a really tough
>  > time ever retiring from Mailman.
> 
> From "Mailman"?  Not even envisioned at present, except in the sense
> that I'm old enough to be aware of my own impending death being closer
> to me than my birth.
> 
> From *Mailman 2*?  No problem at all.  This is not my first rodeo, my
> friend.  You clearly do not understand what I've been saying about the
> costs and benefits of user support and why GNU Mailman has chosen the
> development and user support strategies we have.
> 
> I'm not saying you should agree.  Certainly not that you should
> abandon your own interests.  But you seem to have a completely
> unrealistic idea of how things work in open source and how you could
> get at least some of what you want in this particular case.
> 
>  > > "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
>  > > vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
>  > > Mailman.
> 
>  > Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
>  > don't prevent them from deciding that.
> 
> Have a clue, Jim.  Really.  Abhilash, Mark, I, and several others
> *are* GNU Mailman -- there's nothing else it *could* be.  The FSF has
> nothing to do with decisions about what code we distribute, that's not
> what GNU is about.  The Mailman community is *not* going to be part of
> the decision-making process, except that a small, unrepresentative
> sample of individual community members post here, and GNU Mailman is
> listening to them.  And in fact, there will not even be a decision in
> some sense.  That is, we could lift the feature freeze at any future
> date, and then we could reverse that decision afterward.
> 
> As for me preventing anything, I can't prevent anything -- if it's at
> all a close call, Abhilash will decide -- and I am not trying to do
> so.  I am *advocating* that
> 
> 1. the current feature freeze is, on balance, *good* for the community
>as a whole even though there's a very vocal group (I take it on
>faith that you're not the only one ;-) that wants the freeze
>lifted, and
> 
> 2. that lifting the freeze *as proposed on this list* is *not* in the
>interest of GNU Mailman or the community
> 
> and I am stating that
> 
> 3. due to my own preferences and constraints, I will retire from
>Mailman 2 support if I don't get credible assurances that Mark and
>I will get substantial help with user support to offset the likely
>increase in needs, and to ensure that user support is maintained at
>high levels even as we reduce o

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> You're right.  If we're going to reopen the Mailman 2 branch to new
> features, there should be a much larger body.  So where is it?  Mark
> and I are not special.  We're merely here every day, we have acquired
> a lot of knowledge about common issues, and we dig into the code or
> the user's configuration when that's needed to solve a problem.  

You're not alone in that, there are plenty of people who help out. Are
you one of the more prevalent this month? Sure!  Last month, not so much
(according to my email archive), etc.  People do what they can, when
they can.

> You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
> to do any of that.
> 
> You just do it.

Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.  You keep
taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused on product
preservation.  There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you
feel I need to fit in the role you define for me?

> It's *easy* to learn to support users, at least the relatively
> sophisticated, often service-oriented admins we see on most days.  So
> where are the folks who "just do it" and show day-to-day attachment to
> supporting other users?
>
> Bottom line: When do we get to retire?  What happens to our *users*
> when we do?  Eventually (ie, within 3 years or so) that *is* going to
> happen.  What are you going to do for our users?

Who's users?  ;-)  I think, based on this thread, you are going to have 
a really tough time ever retiring from Mailman.  I think, and I mean
this with love and appreciation, you are extremely protective of
something you've shepherded.  Like a parent who is offended by a teacher
or professor criticizing their child.

> "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
> vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
> Mailman.

Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
don't prevent them from deciding that.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 21:11 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/15/20 8:18 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
> > are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
> > all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
> > on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
> > testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
> > the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.
> 
> When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make 
> mm2 python 3 compatible?

yes.

> 
> So this labor you and your group are looking to do for MM2, how is this 
> not going to take more time then just migrating to MM3? One of your 
> criticism is that MM3 is complex and it is difficult to install. How is 
> all of this effort you are making staying with a version of Mailman that 
> has been updated (MM2 to MM3), and uses an interface that is over 15 
> years old productive? 

How old is the technology and tools used to steer the vehicle you drive,
or the mechanics behind the blades that wipe the windshield?

> I don't see this path you are trying to take as 
> one that is less complex and difficult than just moving to a MM3 
> environment. 

Fair point.

> At this point, those who use MM2 via cPanel will most 
> likely not benefit from your efforts. Especially if you port MM2 to 
> python 3 (this is an assumption I am making). I don't think cPanel will 
> touch such a version at all.

I'm no fan of cpanel as I have stated many times before. This isn't for
them.

> By the way, with all the problems I have seen with some folks having a 
> difficult time with installing MM2 on this list, I think the arguments 
> that MM3 is too difficult to install (it's not) 

says the guy who paid someone to re-craft 2/3rds of it. O_o   :)


> weakens considerably. I 
> still think non-cPanel MM2 users' time is better spent learning to 
> install MM3 and using it. Or better yet use a Mailman 3 host provider 
> such as myself to make their lives considerably easier.
> 

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 16:51 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 12:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
> > all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
> > support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 
> 
> I told you to make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org. I suggested
> what I thought it should include. I don't think I said it had to include
> all that. See my follow=up at
> <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/WS5ISNCEOGKEJRJNO3FCXFBCXMJY5ADC/>;.
> 

Thank you Mark.  I did read your followup when you posted a few days
back, I've read and followed every email in this thread.

A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2020-09-16 at 03:51 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
>  > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
>  > umbrella.
> 
> Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
> not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
> for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
> It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
> quite clear about that.
> 
> If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
> have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
> denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
> We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
> we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
Mark manages just the new features? (BTW, NEWS lists New Features were
added as recently as 2020-April) Do you feel that you would be obligated
to support something that was added to mm2 that you didn't feel should
be added or that you couldn't provide support for?  Is that what this is
all about?  


>  > Obstruction much?
> 
> There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.
> 
> Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
> almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
> find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
> we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
> You don't need anything else.
> 
> You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
> in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
> assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.  

I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 

> You also apparently think you have
> the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.

No I don't, and I don't know why you can't differentiate between Mailman
and yourself.  Mailman should, and can, support multiple versions.  You
and Mark should feel free to contribute wherever you feel comfortable;
but I draw the line at you saying mm2 should die because you don't want
to support it under the parameters and guidelines designed and
established by yourself (and Mark).  I think the genuine problem here is
that it's a 2 man show when it should be a much larger body.

Now, no one should be shielded from criticism when they attempt to
abandon an installed base of users.  Remember, we are at this juncture
today because several people spoke up, over the past year, about all the
repeated "Final Release" warnings. It took at least 2 days of back-n-
forth emails just to get someone to say publicly that mm2 security
issues would indeed still be addressed going forward (why was it so
difficult to come to that reasoning?).   Also, don't forget that this
time last Summer there were some discussions on this list about how mm2
would be eol on 1/1/2020 because that was the Python team's v2 eol. 

> My question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright! 
> new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
> plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
> your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
> Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
> project is committed to, as Mark and I are.
> 
> I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
> majority of Mailman 2 users.

Why just you and Mark?  What about any of the other many people who
contribute and help in various ways? 

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 08:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 4:40 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
> > interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
> > should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?
> 
> Brian's Affinity and Empathy are his proprietary work and he has valid
> reasons for not licensing their use by others.

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder if we can get him to license/allow a copy
for use by Python.org.

> Would you care to elaborate on why you think interacting with HK is "an
> abysmal time waste"?

I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
that make it easy to use.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 16:10 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he could
>  > or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against his
>  > objectives,
> 
> Correction: I will not work with someone who repeatedly misrepresents my
> positions in the way that the quoted passage does.


Fine. I'll leave it up to the reader to bisect what you and I have both
said on the issue, including your other comments today about how you (a
member of the Mailman Cabal) will only support Mark's Mailman releases.

I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
umbrella.  Obstruction much?

I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 09:16 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/13/20 9:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and
> > appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction
> > it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured.
> 
> So make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org

I think at this point the onus is on the Cabal to formally state their
position given that we seen waffling about mm2 finality and security
releases (yes, it did eventually turn out better than it looked), and
comments like this from a current Cabal member: 

  "...the GNU Mailman Project whose core members control access 
   to Mailman resources ranging from mailing list moderation to 
   GSoC slots, has the goal of developing, maintaining and 
   promoting Mailman 3, while winding down Mailman 2 gracefully."


Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal?

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 15:36 +, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> OK, I'm back and more or less caught up so I'm ready to continue this 
> discussion. 
> 
> In his initial post in this thread, Jim suggests that he and others want to 
> join the Mailman Coders team on Launchpad in order to commit to the Mailman 
> 2.1 branch there. In a thread on the merge proposal that started this, Jim 
> quotes my conjecture that he wants not only commit permission, but also the 
> ability to make releases and distribute them to the appropriate download 
> locations, and says that's "overkill". He also notes my suggestion that he 
> make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org which he has not yet done. [1] I 
> mentioned that previously in this thread [2] and Jim replied that my 
> suggestions were "over the top" [3].
> 
> So much for background. Here's my current position. Steve has presented a 
> summary of issues [4] with which I agree. For my part, I have stated that I 
> am willing to continue in my role as Mailman 2.1 release manager and to fix 
> critical bugs and security issues and commit i18n updates, but not implement 
> new features. I am also happy to continue to support Mailman 2.1 users via 
> this list. In fact, I just reported and fixed a bug [5].
> 
> However, if third parties are making changes to the code base, I can no 
> longer make signed releases of code that I haven't audited, and this auditing 
> is what I don't want to do.
> 
> Jim seems to want to be able to make these changes, but seems unwilling to 
> take over as release manager. So, what is the value of these changes if there 
> is never another release?
> 
> I think that's probably enough for this post. I will try to answer any 
> follow-ups.
> 
> [1] 
> https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024990
> [2] 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/ADOK7LGWRKNM4EJIZKO6CSIJRWCYS74A/
> [3] 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/RUZCFKDQAS2AGTPD3GXMCN7B7YBQF245/
> [4] 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/XCGIWMFWRY63DZOYHJPRCCUYUXBNDK67/
> [5] https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1895451


Since it's not clear enough, my "overkill" statement about specifically
about the laundry list of things that Mark said I would need commit and
update access to [1], which seemed above and beyond necessary to me. 
More specifically that list of access-to-everything seems to me like a
jellybean test. e.g. "Ask for all of this so that it is impossible for
you get get any of it".

1. 
https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024988

I standby my feelings that some people want to quietly run away from
this established product and make it impossible for any others to take
over.  See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he
could or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against
his objectives, yet he wanted to remain as one of the few in the Cabal
(really just who is the Cabal these days?), thereby preventing any mm2
people from being in the Cabal, the Cabal that Mark just said myself and
anyone else would need permission and access from.  It looks like a
rotten egg, it smells like a rotten egg,

What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and
appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction
it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sun, 2020-08-30 at 14:29 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> I wrote a long screed, full of piss and vinegar.  But on reflection,
> clearly nobody is reading what I wrote earlier, so let's try pithy and
> dry.  It's still long. :-(
> 
> Chip Davis writes:
> 
>  > OK guys, what's really going on here?
> 
> I don't know.  I can tell you I'm done with Jim.  You'll have to ask
> him about what he thinks is going on.

I'm more than happy to detail it.  Stephen and Mark want to move on, and
get away from mm2, they want everyone else to follow them to mm3. They
feel that *their* reputations would be hurt if others stayed back and
continued to work on what they are abandoning. 

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Fri, 2020-08-28 at 23:47 -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> Or... it's pretty likely that MM2 maintenance, and maybe improvements, will 
> continue in some fashion. The question is whether that's under the auspices 
> of the gnu-mailman project or in a fork. If the existing gnu-mailman team 
> doesn't want new members working on old code, and that's the way it sounds, 
> just say so and give the blessing for a code fork.


I'd love to hear RMS's opinion of that.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sat, 2020-08-29 at 03:53 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > Again with the "Jim's team".  Those other guys, that other group, them
>  > folks  That's nauseating to hear from you Stephen.
> 
> I use the word "team" to describe people who work together closely to
> achieve common goals.  That's just English.  

Yet, (as you write in the 4 paragraphs below) you see no benefit of
working together closely with anyone in favor of continuing work on mm2.
So which use of "team" is it Stephen? 

> The team I'm on, the GNU
> Mailman Project whose core members control access to Mailman resources
> ranging from mailing list moderation to GSoC slots, has the goal of
> developing, maintaining and promoting Mailman 3, while winding down
> Mailman 2 gracefully.  Mark's "gatekeeping" is a deliberate strategy
> to that end that is an economical use of our resources.  Until you
> spoke up, there wasn't really an alternative anyway given Mark's
> expressed desire to EOL his support of Mailman 2.
> 
> You have a different goal, maintaining, promoting, and developing
> Mailman 2.  As far as I know, you have no interest in doing the same
> for Mailman 3 at this time.  I believe that is also true of others who
> have expressed interest in your proposal.
> 
> I don't see how you can question that these are different teams.  We
> don't need to work together and we won't work together on 99% of what
> either team does.  I do not understand why you take insult at
> references to this simple fact, and spew abuse in return.
> 
> This abuse is quite different from getting upset at the GNU Mailman
> Project's policy of deprecating Mailman 2.  That imposes real costs on
> you.  I understand why that frustrates you.  I understand why you want
> to share in our resources and our reputation that we built up and we
> maintain, rather than fork a new project.  And you know what?  Even
> though your goal of promoting Mailman 2 is apparently opposed to our
> goal of winding down Mailman 2, it presents a great opportunity to do
> it with grace.  I understand and to some extent agree with Brian's
> concerns about technical debt and irresponsible providers.  But I
> don't really see how a shoot-the-prisoner approach to Mailman 2 EOL
> addresses the technical debt and provider issues given the switching
> costs that Mailman 2 users still face.  So I think it would benefit
> Mailman 2 users in the community to take up a friendly offer to
> maintain Mailman 2, and not really harm our goals.
> 
> Problem is, you are not friendly.  You are hostile and abusive, and I
> don't understand why.

Because friendly got us all the way to this point, and it's a point that
could have, and should have, been avoided by not alienating mm2 users
and site owners. Your "team" did that alienation, don't try to throw it
off as the fault of others who are identifying it.

> Ball's in your court, Jim.
> 
>  > Stephen, just who do you think did the DMARC research and work in
>  > MM2?
> 
> What's your point?  Again, you seem to have taken offense, but I'm not
> sure why.  The only contribution I deprecated was my own, and I'm
> baffled at the connection to who did DMARC work.

I'm baffled because you claimed to have headaches from doing all the
DMARC work, and, honestly, you weren't a part of the DMARC work that
Mark, Phil and I did.  And up until our work there was no widely used or
well known DMARC solution in mm2 other than from_is_list (which, lets
face it, hardly anybody knew about or used).  Frank's patch (from 2012)
was not really a solution, and Mark did most of the work on that. Here's
the commit log: 
https://code.launchpad.net/~mlm-author/mailman/2.1-author/+merge/115035

Here's the source of my DMARC work:
https://code.launchpad.net/~jimpop/mailman/dmarc-reject
Here's Phil's contributions:
https://code.launchpad.net/~phil.pennock/mailman/dmarc-reject

And if you look in this list you will find several other merges from me
on DMARC handling: 
https://code.launchpad.net/%7Emailman-coders/mailman/2.1/+merges
What I can't find on that list is contributions/merges from you Stephen.


> To answer your question, though, Franck Martin of LinkedIn and DMARC
> contributed the original from_is_list patch.  I contributed an
> alternative, RFC-conforming wrapper approach (that wasn't useful
> because of Apple Mail's mishandling message/rfc-822 parts), and
> liaised with the DMARC Consortium.  You did something that I forget
> exactly, IIRC related to the DNS fiddling that enabled the mitigations
> only on p=reject domains, which made from_is_list a lot more
> palatable.  Mark did the integration of about 2 dozen patches,
> testing, much of the documentation, and cut several releas

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-08-27 at 10:05 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 8/27/20 3:29 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > There is sooo much to respond to, but in order to stay on focus... 
> > Brian, you fail to identify the problem, in fact you mischaracterized
> > it. Mark is essentially gatekeeping.  He is saying that he wants to
> > continue to control security maintenance of mm2 but he wants any other
> > feature development to be under a different umbrella away from his
> > gatekeeping.
> 
> I am the gatekeeper because the current Mailman 2.1 branch belongs to
> the GNU-Mailman project and I am the only member of that project who is
> doing anything with updating/releasing Mailman 2.1. If I weren't there,
> the gate would be locked.

The phrasing of "the current Mailman 2.1 branch belongs to the GNU-
Mailman project" seems odd.

> > Absolutely not.  We see life in MM2 and want the gatekeepers out of the
> > way.
> 
> We've had this discussion at
> <https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691>;. I have
> told you what you need to do to get commit permission to the branch at
> <https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1>;, and I assume
> that your initial post in this thread was an effort to get others to
> join you in this. I am sure that I and the other members of the
> GNU-Mailman project will give serious consideration to anything you
> propose, but we haven't seen a proposal yet.

To be honest, I felt your post here
https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024988 
was a bit over the top.  You seem to have gone on and on about listing
all the possible things that I would need access to, as though it would
be such an impossibility for the Cabal to approve.  

> Please stop painting me as an obstructionist who wants to kill Mailman
> 2.1. I do not think that's a fair characterization.

I'm not here to judge you, I think your position on Mailman 2.1 is very
clear, and I think my good and thankful opinion of you is well
understood by the readers of this email.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-08-27 at 09:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 8/27/20 3:41 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-08-27 at 17:41 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > > The question for you is what benefit there is to anyone in having
> > > Mailman 2 maintenance inside the Mailman Project going forward.  
> > 
> > You mean inside the Mailman3 Project at mailman3.org?  None.
> > 
> > > The Mailman Project certainly doesn't want to encourage new 
> > > installations of Mailman 2.  
> > 
> > Again, Do you mean the Mailman3 Project at mailman3.org and on the MM3-
> > org mailinglists?  If so, fine, move on.
> 
> I think Steve is referring to the GNU-Mailman project which is the group
> of people, always small and continuously evolving, starting with John
> Viega, who've been responsible for the development and maintenance of
> Mailman since it's inception.
> 
> I'm still not clear on what you (Jim) are really wanting to do. 

I want there to be a team, and I'm willing to be a part of it, that sees
merge requests and accepts or rejects them as features for Mailman 2.x
based on their value and suitability (not based on fear of any effect it
will have on mm3).  JUST Like you (Mark) alone did for all of these
merge requests except for the most recent 1:  
https://code.launchpad.net/%7Emailman-coders/mailman/2.1/+merges

> I may be
> wrong on this, but I don't see any distros picking up new versions of
> Mailman 2.1 unless they come from some 'official' source and so far, the
> GNU-Mailman project is the only such source. I'm not even sure that any
> distros are planning to package Mailman 2.1.34.

The distros may not rollout pure mm2.1.34, but they certainly do pick
and choose bits to apply to their maintained version. For example, the
DMARC and other stuff that I contributed wound up in numerous versions
of Mailman as released by distros and their derivatives. 


> I don't think Steve or I is being 'proprietary' about Mailman per se,
> but we are proprietary about the GNU-Mailman project,

To me, they are the same. As you said above, distros aren't going to
pull from un-official sources, so supporting "Mailman" is only relevant
in the context of supporting "GNU-Mailman".

> so the question is
> do Jim and possibly others become part of the GNU-Mailman project and
> continue to maintain the 2.1 branch on Launchpad or wherever and make
> 'official' releases, or do they fork the project and hope that their
> fork becomes the accepted source for Mailman 2.1.x.

I don't know why you think that's a valid question given that you have
stated you have no proprietary interest in Mailman.  I think it would
help everyone if you explained just what you mean by, and any
proprietary items you can identify, when you say "GNU Mailman"

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-08-27 at 17:27 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> MM3, on the other hand, not only has three more or less active
> developers, it also has frequent releases including new features as
> well as bug fixes.

That could still be happening for MM2 if not for some imaginary line in
the sand.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-08-27 at 17:41 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> The question for you is what benefit there is to anyone in having
> Mailman 2 maintenance inside the Mailman Project going forward.  

You mean inside the Mailman3 Project at mailman3.org?  None.

> The Mailman Project certainly doesn't want to encourage new 
> installations of Mailman 2.  

Again, Do you mean the Mailman3 Project at mailman3.org and on the MM3-
org mailinglists?  If so, fine, move on.

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-08-27 at 17:24 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Brian Carpenter writes:
>  > On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>  > >
>  > > As someone regularly uses and maintains a fair bit of old and antique 
>  > > machinery, MM2 still has a lot of life in it.
> 
> In particular, MM2 L10N supports a couple dozen languages, including
> the major Han languages and dialects, and I think Hebrew and Arabic.
> MM3 supports English, French, German, and now Italian.
> 
>  > MM2 has some life. That is correct. MM3 has far more.
> 
> Thank you both for your support.  Of course, you're both right. ;-)
> 
> Brian, do you see the presence of lots of MM2 installations around the
> 'net as a threat or irritation for you or your business?  I don't see
> that, but you know your business and I don't.  Or are you taking the
> users' point of view, and arguing that the features of Mailman 3 and
> possible risks to Mailman 2 installations make migration the "right
> thing"?
> 
> The point is that I don't see a lot of direct harm to third parties
> from maintaining existing MM2 installations, if their owners are
> willing to accept the risks that come with an unsupported software
> stack.  I don't disagree that for-profit services that offer these are
> irresponsible, but I don't see how that hurts you or us, given that we
> don't support that stack any more.
> 
>  > That is good as long as no major "DMARC" events come along.
> 
> That's a very good point.  There are major risks to using Internet-
> facing applications that lack an experienced, active development team.
> But that's up to the users to decide, while monitoring just how active
> Jim's team turns out to be.

Again with the "Jim's team".  Those other guys, that other group, them
folks  That's nauseating to hear from you Stephen.

> I think Jim should very much take this to heart, as well as thinking
> about the fact that we get several CVEs a year, which will be his job
> to deal with.  I don't lose sleep over the CVEs (they're all 1s and 2s
> recently, and Mark did almost all the work before I could get started :-),
> but DMARC cost me a lot of sleep.


Stephen, just who do you think did the DMARC research and work in MM2? 
Phil, Mark, care to chime in on this?

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 23:17 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> 
> I am sure Mark has moved on from Mailman 2, at least he has said that on 
> numerous occasions. It is you folks that won't let him. 

There is sooo much to respond to, but in order to stay on focus... 
Brian, you fail to identify the problem, in fact you mischaracterized
it. Mark is essentially gatekeeping.  He is saying that he wants to
continue to control security maintenance of mm2 but he wants any other
feature development to be under a different umbrella away from his
gatekeeping.

> You want to keep using MM2 and you want the developers to keep
> supporting it. 

Absolutely not.  We see life in MM2 and want the gatekeepers out of the
way.

> That pressure can/does hinder the work on Mailman 3.

That is imaginary or self-contrived pressure.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 20:25 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 8/26/20 7:02 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are
> > admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts.
> > I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3
> > and needed a 3rd party to bail them out.  Brian, I recall referring one
> > of them to you.  So, I guess, money does come into play.  Fear is
> > another interesting choice of words.  Do you think that the fear might
> > be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project
> > is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going
> > forward?
> 
> Because the main reason why Mailman 2 has seen the popular use that it 
> does is because of budget hosts that offered cPanel and Plesk 
> environments. Both of them included Mailman 2 with their packages. I do 
> know some hosting control panels are starting to drop support for 
> Mailman 2 and that will continue to grow. I personally don't think 
> Mailman 3 will see as large of an adoption rate as Mailman 2. That is 
> because cheap hosting companies are not interested in quality but 
> quantity. cPanel will probably never adopt Mailman 3. Dreamhost said no 
> to it and will keep Mailman 2 for now. Why? Because Mailman 3 requires a 
> more complex environment. However, my opinion, most well developed apps 
> do. So SaaS providers such as myself will play a more important role in 
> the propagation of Mailman 3. That's not a bad thing. At least Mailman 3 
> will have providers who will provide expert and conscientious support of 
> Mailman 3 than some of these budget hosts (looking at you A2).

My experience is different, I know of no Mailman cPanel installs, in
over 2 decades of dealing with Mailman.  In fact, I have a long history
of hating cPanel and such.

> I think what prevents folks like you and Carl, ultimately, is fear of 
> the unknown. Mailman 3 does not require expensive consulting contracts. 
> I made a $150 bucks from your referral. That doesn't break no one's 
> budget. Also I would appreciate if you keep our private conversations 
> off of a public mailing list.

Sure, but you do know that you just revealed more about it than I did.

As for "fear", I don't fear mm3, I have a mm3 setup and that is how I
know all about mm3 (that and the mm3 lists).   

> Mark is simply saying it doesn't make sent to continue to build up a 
> retired application (MM2) and instead focus their limited resources on a 
> young stallion called MM3. There is nothing wrong with that. Go to 
> someone else for the development of MM2.

Who?  I'm the one volunteering to do it, why would I go to someone else
to do it for me?  I just don't follow your logic there.


> > Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that
> > time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over.  The difference
> > now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and
> > should have the right and support to move on.
> > 
> > > Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of
> > keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about.
> > 
> > That, *that* ^^^, is my point.  I want to take that on, I want to work
> > with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2
> > branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it.  I think
> > who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team.  There is
> > absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples
> > for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or
> > closed source for that matter) project.
> > 
> > 
> So go to cPanel forums to request that or Dreamhost, or others. I am 
> pretty sure you will not like the answer you will get from them. Why 
> wouldn't you just spend your efforts to migrate to Mailman 3? I just 
> don't see the logic in your efforts here.

I'm confused, why do you think I should talk to Dreamhost or cPanel? 

> I didn't like Postorius or Hyperkitty (still don't, sorry Mark and Abs). 
> So due to that beautiful REST api, I made my own path. At the end of the 
> day, its still Mailman 3 that I am using. Modern web development offers 
> so much choices and potentials these days for users. It's just sad that 
> Mailman 2 will never see those choices and potentials because it just 
> doesn't have the foundation to do so. It is dead in the water. But it is 
> resurrected in Mailman 3.

You seem happy with mm3, and that is good.  Nobody is saying you
shouldn't have mm3...but please don't say others should do exactly what
you want 

[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 17:05 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
snip-snip

> I think the issue here is money and fear. Cheap cPanel hosts include 
> Mailman 2 with their budget hosting packages and I am pretty sure that 
> is who you are using. 

I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are
admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts. 
I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3
and needed a 3rd party to bail them out.  Brian, I recall referring one
of them to you.  So, I guess, money does come into play.  Fear is
another interesting choice of words.  Do you think that the fear might
be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project
is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going
forward?

Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that
time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over.  The difference
now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and
should have the right and support to move on.

> Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of
keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about. 

That, *that* ^^^, is my point.  I want to take that on, I want to work
with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2
branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it.  I think
who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team.  There is
absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples
for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or
closed source for that matter) project. 

-Jim P.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 23:52 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > A couple of days ago, over on the MAILOP mailinglist, there was a
>  > long thread titled 'Mailman confirmation email denial of service'.
> 
> *sigh* The price of success.  Of course this can be done with any
> automated service that accepts an email address as an identity, eg,
> Wordpress blog comment sections.
> 
>  > Recently, a kind person submitted a patch [1] to Mailman for
>  > hCAPTCHA an alternative to ReCAPTCHA.  In the discussion of that
>  > patch, Mark has stated that he is not interested in any more
>  > features for Mailman 2.x.
> 
> [...]
> 
>  > So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two
>  > more people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and
>  > approve new features that continue the long tradition of providing
>  > value to Mailman 2.x.  Who's with me on this?
> 
> In the following I'm expressing personal opinions and suggestions,
> which should not be taken as representing the position of the Mailman
> Project.
> 
> I'm not willing to join the group.  I've thrown my lot in with Mailman
> 3, and don't have energy to spare for new development on Mailman 2.
> However, if I can contribute support to Mailman 2 users, I'll do that.
> I don't object to people making efforts to maintain Mailman 2, nor do
> I begrudge sharing Mailman resources (including the mailing lists and
> official repos) -- our hosts are quite elastic about the resources we
> use, it's no cost to us.  On the contrary, aside from the intrinsic
> value to Mailman 2 users, it's an interesting social experiment.
> There was a lot of grumbling about maintaining Python 2, but nothing
> ever came of it.  I'd like to see if you can make this work, and I'll
> be rooting for your success.
> 
> I (again, this is me, I am not speaking for the team) would appreciate
> it if you could come up with team nickname or motto to express that
> you're not the same as the core project (at least for now).  And you
> probably don't want to overpromise.  "Classic Mailman Volunteer Fire
> Dept" is the best I can think of offhand.[1]

Thanks Stephen.  I don't think there is a need for a new name, a new
repo, or a new team.  Mailman 2.x will be in distro repos for at least
the next 5 years, so there's plenty of life left in it (and Python 2
too).  Look, we've known about the EOL of Python2 for 2 years now, and
in that time many new features have been added to Mailman 2.x by people
in the Mailman project.  To say that we need a different group now is
nonsense, we just need members in the Mailman group who are willing to
continue the work that has been done over the past several years
(including recent years) by Mark.

I hate to say this, but I'm sensing an exclusivity in your and Mark's
comments.  Is Mailman a open source project or is it an exclusive club?

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

Hi Folks,

A couple of days ago, over on the MAILOP mailinglist, there was a long
thread titled 'Mailman confirmation email denial of service'.  This
detailed some of the problems we've all seen with Mailman subscription
spam.  The Mailman team has addressed a lot of these problems with 
ReCAPTCHA support and additional configuration options.  Arguably the
best solution has been the ReCAPTCHA integration.  BUT, a lot of people
don't like the Google tie-ins that come with ReCAPTCHA. 

Recently, a kind person submitted a patch [1] to Mailman for hCAPTCHA an
alternative to ReCAPTCHA.  In the discussion of that patch, Mark has
stated that he is not interested in any more features for Mailman 2.x. 
I think that is fine, Mark has given decades of this time to Mailman and
I think it's perfectly natural for him to want to move on.  He deserves
a lot of credit for Mailman's success, both the 2.x and 3.x branches. 

So, I have volunteered to spearhead an effort to add one or two more
people to the Mailman Coders group[2] in order to vet and approve new
features that continue the long tradition of providing value to Mailman
2.x.  Who's with me on this?



1. https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691

2. https://launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/+members#active


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Upgrading from 2.1.12

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-07-23 at 10:15 -0500, Barry S. Finkel wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:40 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> > 
> > > On 7/22/20 12:54 AM, Daniel Krause via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > > > Good Day
> > > > 
> > > > We have a running 2.1.12 installation that was done long ago via an
> > > > external consultant.
> > > > It hasn't been changed in years, but I would like to upgrade this to at
> > > > least the latest 2.x version and potentially 3.x.
> > > > We would also like to migrate this from the current Centos VM to an
> > > Ubuntu
> > > > EC2 instance
> > > 
> > > You have choices. Basically, there are Debian/Ubuntu packages for both
> > > Mailman 2.1 and Mailman 3, but I don't necessarily recommend them. I
> > > prefer installing Mailman 2.1 from source or, for Ubuntu, maybe from Jim
> > > Popovitch's PPA
> > > ;.
> > > 
> > > Mailman 3 is more complex, but there is installation info at
> > > ;, 
> > > and
> > > <
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xIcSsoNFp2nHi7r4eQys00s9a0k2sHhu1V5PlantPTs/edit
> > > > .
> > > > Knowing very little about the structure etc of the data etc, what would
> > > be
> > > > the best way to go about this?
> > > 
> > > If you have created a working MM 2.1 installation, see
> > >  for info on moving lists.
> > > 
> > > For MM 3 there are tools, namely `mailman import21` and
> > > `hyperkitty_import` for importing Mailman 2.1 lists and archives.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> > > San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> > > --
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> 
> 
> On 7/22/2020 10:57 PM, Daniel Krause via Mailman-Users wrote:
>  > Thanks Mark
> 
> 
> As I have written before - When I was a Mailman administrator
> I was told to install the Debian/Ubuntu package, but that package
> 
>   o contained undocumented patches
> 
>   o removed a library that was sometimes needed
> 
>   o appears to have "fixed" bugs without checking with the
> Mailman development team
> 
> So, I could not trust the Ubuntu package.  I spent a lot of time
> determining how to create a Debian/Ubuntu package from the source.
> I think that this was around 2.1.14, but I assume that my instructions
> would work on on the latest 2.1.x source.  For details, contact me
> offline.  The procedure is not complicated,


FWIW, to those interested, the procedures (recipes) for auto building
the Mailman 2.x PPA are locate here:

https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-administrivia

They contain all the rules/logic/scripts to build the Debian/Ubuntu
packages that auto-build off of Mark's code bases for mailman2.x,
mailman-htdig, etc.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 17:18 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/2/20 1:55 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > There are plenty of people who are still happy with pipermail and some
> > of the other search options (Google, htdig, etc)  What benefit does a
> > REST api provide to church groups, and tech lists like nanog or mailop? 
> 
> It provides a stable, documented management interface so people can
> create their own web UIs to control Mailman 3 in whatever way they want.
> Granted your end user's aren't going to do this, but the people who want
> it can, and more easily than by porting Mailman 2.1 to Python 3.

Can you share with me (us) the number and size, along with the industry
or operations arena, of those people who are creating their own web UI.

I honestly don't believe that there is that much interest for that
outside of a handful of entities (Brian, CPanel, Canonical, and
LinkedIn?).  I feel like if the interest was greater, we'd see more
evidence of that in the Gitlab issue tracker and or on the MM3 lists.  
Convince me that I'm wrong.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 10:54 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/2/20 8:56 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> > Barry's roadmap
> > for Python2 -> Python3 seems to counter the narrative that MM2 is ill-
> > advised to be ported to Python3 (btw, that was posted in Jan of this
> > year).
> 
> The question is what do people want when they say they want Mailman 2
> ported to Python 3.

I believe they want Mailman 2, as it is today, but with a fully
supported language that it depends on.  Lets be clear, the upgrade from
MM2 to MM3 is not the same as a traditional upgrade path, MM3 is a whole
new application.  It's an application upgrade the same way the Space
Shuttle was an upgrade from the Apollo capsules.  Different designs,
whole new concepts, years of pie-in-the-sky and dry marker dust.  While
that is important to some, it may not matter to others (and I think that
is the situation today).  I really want to know who all the "we need a
REST interface now!" people are.

I'm reminded of that great diagram from years past about "what the
customer wanted", "what the developer envisioned", "what the tester
tested", etc.  It's a great reminder of how quagmires are created.

> If it means, porting to Python 3 and fixing a few things on the way such
> as adding a real backend database, a concept of "user" and a REST API,
> it's at least partially done. It's Mailman 3 core.
> 
> If it means cloning the MM 2.1 web UI and pipermail archiver, that is
> almost certainly not worth the effort.

There are plenty of people who are still happy with pipermail and some
of the other search options (Google, htdig, etc)  What benefit does a
REST api provide to church groups, and tech lists like nanog or mailop? 

BTW, I've run some technical discussion lists for 2 decades now, I can
recall the number of times someone has said "we need an archive search
feature" on 1 hand.
 
> A compromise is exactly what Brian proposes. Mailman 3 with a new web
> UI, light weight, not based on Django and easy to install. Mailman 3 was
> explicitly designed to be separate from a web management UI and Archiver
> and to allow different implementations of those to integrate easily with
> core.

While I applaud Brian's efforts, I'm not convinced that I would run PHP
on a public facing portal, even in 2020.  But that's just me, others may
feel differently.

> Postorius and HyperKitty are part of Mailman 3 because we needed
> something and that is what people were willing to commit to do. We
> always hoped there would be alternatives, and it seems that now Brian is
> working on one. There's room for more.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 17:17 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > Interestingly enough, here's a roadmap on exactly how to do it:  :)
> 
> Jim, you're not helping.  

Stephen, thank you for taking the time to respond.  Although I would
have preferred you respond to the questions that I asked, I believe I
can now see why you don't want to.  Your "Dave Matthews" subthread sent
me down a youtube rabbit's hole of Barry's videos and links. TBH, I can
see why bringing those to the surface aren't favorable. Barry's roadmap
for Python2 -> Python3 seems to counter the narrative that MM2 is ill-
advised to be ported to Python3 (btw, that was posted in Jan of this
year).

> Until there are "I'll do it" hands up, no
> port to Python 3 that is faithful to current Mailman 2 is viable.

That is a piece of a much bigger puzzle.  How are we to attract interest
in coding for MM2 when (omg wow) for the past 10+ years key people have
been drumming a beat that MM2 is dead.

> Pushing it just serves to annoy those who are currently doing work for
> Mailman that they care more about.

I get that, but others may care more about MM2, you yourself have even
somewhat begrudgingly acknowledged this.

> By contrast, your question about security fixes was an entirely
> appropriate clarification, and #ThankYouForPersisting on that
> subthread.

#Mailman3MightBeTheNewNewCoke :-)

-Jim P.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sat, 2020-02-29 at 10:46 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/29/20 7:02 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > If
> > a CSF/CSS is identified in Mailman v2.1.30 in May-2020, what will be
> > done to address it?
> 
> I'd say it depend on the details of how serious the vulnerability is,
> how easy it is to exploit and how hard it is to fix. I am not opposed to
> Mailman 2.1.30-x security fix releases.


Thank you, it is reassuring to hear you say that. 

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-02-27 at 14:51 -0500, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2020, at 14:24, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> > Personally, I'd like to see the GNU Mailman project have a formal
> > Mailman 2.3 release that supports Python3, I feel that there would be 
> > a
> > lot of support for that.
> 
> I'm sure there would be widespread applause and congratulations if such 
> a thing were actually released. That sort of "support" is unhelpful 
> towards actually making such a release.
> 
> The needed support is the actual skilled effort of writing the required 
> Python3 code. I don't have the time to hunt down the specific 
> statements, but I have vague recollections that both Barry and Mark have 
> said repeatedly that doing so would be substantially more effort than 
> they are willing to put into anything built on the MM2 architecture.


Interestingly enough, here's a roadmap on exactly how to do it:  :)

https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2020/how-we-retired-python-2-and-improved-developer-happiness


-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sat, 2020-02-29 at 16:28 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mark Sapiro writes:
> 
>  > Well, Steve channeled me earlier, so I'll return the favor.
> 
> And did it with extreme precision and accuracy.  Sorry if I created
> any misunderstandings.
> 
> The only thing I have to add is that mailman-users@python.org is not
> going away.  Furthermore, I expect that Mark and I, at least, will be
> here for the foreseeable future.  That's because not only are existing
> Mailman 2 installations not going away any time soon, there's every
> reason to believe that people will continue installing Mailman 2 for
> quite some time (even if it might be more convenient for *us* if
> everybody would switch to Mailman 3 ;-).
> 
> Steve

Steve, given your comments above, please expand upon this scenario:  If
a CSF/CSS is identified in Mailman v2.1.30 in May-2020, what will be
done to address it?

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Fri, 2020-02-28 at 10:07 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/28/20 6:17 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Fri, 2020-02-28 at 19:52 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > > Brian Carpenter writes:
> > > 
> > >  > I have hired a professional PHP developer to begin work on a new 
> > >  > admin/forum interface for Mailman 3.
> > > 
> > > Too bad.  I really sympathize with your goals but am unlikely to be
> > > able to contribute directly to implementation (assuming an eventual
> > > open-sourcing).  Never learned PHP, not going to do it anytime soon.
> > 
> > Stephen, It's difficult for me to parse your thought process on this.
> > Why do you say "Too bad" about someone wanting to improve something that
> > you admit you want no part of?
> 
> Well, Steve channeled me earlier, so I'll return the favor. I think
> Steve is saying "Too bad" he is only talking about the choice of PHP as
> a platform rather than Python. We absolutely encourage people to develop
> alternatives to Postorius and HyperKitty for archiving and web
> management of Mailman. I think all Steve is saying is he could be more
> helpful with Python as opposed to PHP.
> 
> See this paragraph:
> 
> > > That's OK, the point of REST is so *you* *can* do that.  I can only
> > > speak for myself, but we can help to some extent on the Python side of
> > > the REST interface.
> 
> 
> > Who is this "we", you referenced them a few times in this email.
> 
> See the initial paragraph in the Acknowledgements section at
> <https://www.list.org/>;.
> 
> 
> 
> > I'm fairly confident in saying that Mark has said (repeatedly now) that
> > there will never ever ever ever ever be another Mailman2 release beyond
> > v2.1.30.  Stephen, why do you say there will be? Do you have the project
> > authority to make that statement?  Who do I beleive?
> 
> Actually, I have said there will not be another release from the GNU
> Mailman project. That does not preclude anyone from forking that project
> from Launchpad and doing whatever with it.

I get that, but that sounds sharply different than what Stephen was
saying.

> I personally am not interested in porting Mailman 2 to Python 3. That's
> already been done. The result, with a real backend database and some
> extensions such as the concept of "user" that doesn't exist in MM 2, is
> Mailman 3 core.
> 
> 
> > What I'm reading between the lines is that
> > nothing but Django was considered for MM3 (by "we") and everything else
> > is inferior and not worth the time.  I'd love to be wrong on that.
> 
> The web based archiving and list management we distribute are based on
> Django because that's how the people who developed those things wanted
> to do it.
> 
> The whole point of Mailman 3 is all that stuff is separate from the core
> engine and communicates with core via a REST API, so there can be lots
> of different web management UIs. We knew if we released Mailman 3 core
> only without a web UI for list management and archive access, no one
> would use it, so we needed those things and the people who were willing
> to implement them built what we have.
> 
> We certainly hoped that there would be people like Brian implementing
> alternatives and we're glad to see it.
> 
> > > Agreed.  I didn't even know bounce processing wasn't working until
> > > this summer (my production lists are all in-house to personal
> > > acquaintances to same-university addresses -- if mail isn't flowing to
> > > somebody, it's not going to anybody, even Mailman!)
> > 
> > MM3 has been on python.org for a while, was it not noticed there either?
> 
> Of course. We began discussing this almost 3 years ago
> <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues/343#note_31870366>;. The
> implementation was mostly done last year by a GSOC student.

I think that is Brian's and a lot of other people's concern.  3 years to
implement something into MM3 that was a core feature in MM2.  I realize
this next question is going to sound bombastic, I assure you it's not
meant that way:  What other things are missing or not available
presently in MM3 that are taken for granite in MM2?

> We are a small project. We have very few people working on Mailman on a
> regular basis, and everyone is a volunteer, no one is paid. If you want
> things to happen faster, please contribute.
> 

~$ grep "Jim Popovitch" ~/devel/Mailman/NEWS | wc -l
10

I don't think that I've been sitting on the fence, in fact I think I've
been contributing a lot if you include not just source contributions but
also the PPAs.  I wo

Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Fri, 2020-02-28 at 19:52 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Brian Carpenter writes:
> 
>  > I have hired a professional PHP developer to begin work on a new 
>  > admin/forum interface for Mailman 3.
> 
> Too bad.  I really sympathize with your goals but am unlikely to be
> able to contribute directly to implementation (assuming an eventual
> open-sourcing).  Never learned PHP, not going to do it anytime soon.

Stephen, It's difficult for me to parse your thought process on this.
Why do you say "Too bad" about someone wanting to improve something that
you admit you want no part of?

> That's OK, the point of REST is so *you* *can* do that.  I can only
> speak for myself, but we can help to some extent on the Python side of
> the REST interface.
> 
> A word of advice: we, too, talked about "modern forum software and
> interfaces that users expect", but implementing them well is a lot
> harder than we expected.  I'm not saying it's too hard for your
> developer, but stay on top of that project!  Mail is hard to combine
> with forums, and it's easy to stray into the weeds.

Who is this "we", you referenced them a few times in this email.


>  > 2. Mailman 2 does need to be ported to python 3 eventually
> 
> Sure, but that's still quite a ways away.  The main issues I can see
> would be related to TLS, where old versions of the protocol seem to be
> deprecated more and more rapidly, but it's probably easier to patch
> Python 2 for that than to port Mailman 2 to Python 3.  Sure, there may
> be non-TLS CVEs against Python 2, but I really can't see them being as
> serious as the kinds of issues that Mailman 2 itself, not to mention
> any site with mail service, would have.

I'm fairly confident in saying that Mark has said (repeatedly now) that
there will never ever ever ever ever be another Mailman2 release beyond
v2.1.30.  Stephen, why do you say there will be? Do you have the project
authority to make that statement?  Who do I beleive?

>  > 3. The decision to use Django. Maybe great for Python users
> 
> This makes no sense to me.  

I'm no fan of PHP, but I'd bet that a majority of web frontend
developers, who "Never learned Django" would say that using Django
"makes no sense to" them.  What I'm reading between the lines is that
nothing but Django was considered for MM3 (by "we") and everything else
is inferior and not worth the time.  I'd love to be wrong on that.

> If your problem with Django is that it's
> written in Python, you've got the REST interface.  That's as far as
> our responsibility goes.  See "REST is the approach" below.
> 
>  > 4. [W]ay too many methods of installing it which means all kinds of
>  > versions of Mailman 3 are in production today because Mailman
>  > versions are dependent upon what method of installation a person
>  > chooses: Distro Package, Docker, Source, others?
> 
> That's not a problem we created.  Our recommendation is, as it always
> has been, build from source.  And the problem is not going to go away.
> Users want turnkey packages such as containers, distros can't be
> stopped from building distro packages.  If you open source your
> interfaces, you'll run into the same issues.
> 
>  > I think the highest priority is to get Mailman 3 core up to speed
>  > in offering everything that Mailman 2 offers such as bounce
>  > processing.
> 
> Agreed.  I didn't even know bounce processing wasn't working until
> this summer (my production lists are all in-house to personal
> acquaintances to same-university addresses -- if mail isn't flowing to
> somebody, it's not going to anybody, even Mailman!)

MM3 has been on python.org for a while, was it not noticed there either?

>  > Then perhaps a whole new approach to interfacing with Mailman 3
>  > core is in order.
> 
> REST *is* the "Mailman 3 approach" to interfacing.  Historically, at
> the time Mailman 3 core got whipped into shape to start beta testing,
> we went with Django for Postorius, because it was the "hot" framework
> of the day, and that's what the developers who volunteered wanted to
> work with.  Of course it had to be a Python framework since we'd be
> maintaining it.  HyperKitty was a little bit different: the Fedora (or
> Red Hat?) people wanted Mailman 3 for internal reasons, and they
> contributed a pile of labor, and (AFAIK) independently chose Django
> and developed the UI based on it (which is why we have two separate
> Django configs).
> 
> *However*, the original idea was that *we* didn't know much about UI
> development, especially the peripheral features of archiving such as
> search and access control, and we wanted to encourage third parties to
> develop their own, or to integrate Mailman lists into their larger
> platforms which already provided user interfaces.
> 
>  > I hope I did not offend anyone here
> 
> The main Postorius devs aren't hanging out here, and we get only a
> little contact in the summer with the HyperKitty devs since the Fedora
> support got cut three or four years ago. 

[Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-02-27 at 10:56 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> for Mailman 3, but that seems unduly kludgy. There won't be any change
> in Mailman 2.1 which is only waiting for i18n updates for the final
> 2.1.30 release which will be the last release from the GNU Mailman project.

Who decides that there will be no more releases of MM2 from the GNU
Mailman project?  

I've got to be honest, Mailman 3 still looks unstable to me.  I get that
it's working on python.org where there are people working on it day
after day, but surely you realize there are a ton of Mailman2 sites that
don't have the time to develop and maintain their own install day after
day.  Look at the MM3 list, there are people who do nothing but offer
full time Mailman hosting and they have problem after problem.  And then
there's the whole "I don't need a CMS for a MLM" argument.  I personally
believe there's a lot more life left in MM2 than a few people want to
admit. 

OK, there's the Python2 EOL issue, but python2 isn't disappearing
overnight, certainly not this month or next (as you say the case should
be with MM2).  

I guess I'm just still a bit shocked to see you rush to abandon
something so popular and established.

Personally, I'd like to see the GNU Mailman project have a formal
Mailman 2.3 release that supports Python3, I feel that there would be a
lot of support for that.

-Jim P.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Handling Munged From Addresses

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-02-27 at 10:23 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/27/20 10:05 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I've been wondering if we should change that to something like this:
> > 
> >  From: Jane Doe (jane@domain.tld) via Listname
> > 
> 
> We specifically do not do that because it is said that multiple email
> addresses in From: trigger spam filters.
> 

Sorry, I meant this:

From: Jane Doe (jane.doe#domain.tld) via Listname 
 


-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Handling Munged From Addresses

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2020-02-27 at 09:58 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/27/20 7:22 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> > I think this may have been addressed but I can't find it. Now that I am
> > munging the from address to mitigate DMARC, recipients can no longer
> > tell who the message is from. What are other folks doing to handle that?
> > Other than having list members add their own signature? Thanks.
> 
> The From: header in the munged message contains the sender's display
> name as in
> 
> From: Jane Doe via ListName 


I've been wondering if we should change that to something like this:

 From: Jane Doe (jane@domain.tld) via Listname



This would be better for mobile email clients which can't/don't easily
display reply-to or other headers.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Apache subscription Referer rules

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-01-14 at 00:19 -0500, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jan 2020, at 10:52, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> > (I think I asked this a few months back, but I couldn't locate any
> > emails on it)
> > 
> > What is the Apache rule syntax for rejecting subscription linking that
> > doesn't come from the same domain/site?
> 
> First step:
> 
> Header always set Referrer-Policy "same-origin"
> 
> This assures (to the degree that browsers comply with directives 
> provided in headers) that legitimate internal links and sub-resource 
> loads have a Referer header (see 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_referer) which you can use.
> 
> The next step is to read 
> https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/rewrite/access.html#blocked-inline-images 
> and adapt the example to your site.
> 

Mod_Rewrite is "too heavy" for something this simple.  I couldn't recall
the specifics, but your mod_rewrite link actually mentioned the way to
do something similar without mod_rewrite.  From that, I extrapolated
this (which I haven't been able to test yet):

SetEnvIfNoCase Referer "https://.*/mailman/listinfo/; ListInfoReferer
SetEnvIfNoCase Request_Protocol "POST" HttpPostProto

Require env ListInfoReferer
Require env HttpPostProto



thoughts?

-Jim P.



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[Mailman-Users] Apache subscription Referer rules

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

(I think I asked this a few months back, but I couldn't locate any
emails on it)

What is the Apache rule syntax for rejecting subscription linking that
doesn't come from the same domain/site?

tia,

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 11:06 -0500, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> > Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
> > :
> > > On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > > > Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> > > > EOL in about 40 days.  
> > > 
> > > I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
> > > declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
> > > HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
> > > throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
> > > for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data 
> > > for Debian 9).
> > 
> > Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This 
> > already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they 
> > will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the 
> > bullseye release.
> 
> Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?)
> will be the last of Python2 for Debian.
> 
> If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an
> application (e.g. Mailman) migration too.  BUT if you are not using
> bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.

Since I'm working on PPAs some today, an additional bullet-point to the
above is that Ubuntu Bionic (which includes Python 2.7) has an EOL of
April 2028.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

Sure, it would be great if everyone migrated to MM3 (and MM3 fit inside
the requirements of everyone using it..) ASAP, but just like with the
Linux Kernel there is no magic solution to have everyone on Kernel 5.x
this week... so guess what, kernel 3x still gets security patches from
distributors.

- -Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> 
> Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
> :
> > On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > > Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> > > EOL in about 40 days.  
> > 
> > I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
> > declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
> > HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
> > throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
> > for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data 
> > for Debian 9).
> 
> Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This 
> already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they 
> will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the 
> bullseye release.

Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?)
will be the last of Python2 for Debian.

If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an
application (e.g. Mailman) migration too.  BUT if you are not using
bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> EOL in about 40 days.  

I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data 
for Debian 9).

Stop being scared by the Python team's misleading messaging.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] English (USA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Tue, 2019-07-09 at 08:40 -0400, Timothy Jasionowski wrote:
> I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but can we acknowledge that 
> this version of Mailman is effectively on life support for a variety 
> of reasons, that the limited developer support on it has been focused
> primarily on fixing critical bugs out of kindness rather than 
> implementing any new features, and focus any internationalization 
> efforts where they belong: in the actively developed Mailman 3?

Why not fix both?  I disagree with your "life support" statement,
Mailman2 has a huge install base that just isn't going to fade away. 
Mailman3, as you correctly point out, still needs and has lots active
development, something a lot of Mailman2 admins don't want to run in
production, for a variety of reasons.  Mailman2 is supported in
Debian/Ubuntu releases for at least the next 5 years.

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] English (USA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2019-07-08 at 14:17 -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 7/8/2019 1:51 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I just keep getting reminded that we specifically support USA English
> > and we offer no other English language support.
> 
> I'm not clear on what other English needs support. (This kind of seems like 
> a solution in search of a problem.)

No other English needs support.  But we are saying, in the list of
languages, that only English (USA) is supported.  For clarity, being an
international application, we should just say that we support English. 
Imagine if Mailman supported "French (CA)" but not "French".

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] English (USA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2019-07-08 at 13:32 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 7/8/19 1:00 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > 
> > Just to be clear, I'm not proposing changes to any po strings, rather
> > just the labels.  The end result would be just "English" in the list of
> > available languages for a list instead of "English (USA)".
> 
> 
> Actually, you are proposing a change to a string. The string "English
> (USA)" is a translatable string which is translated in almost all of the
> 39 translations for display in the list of available languages on
> various web pages. Changing it from "English (USA)" to "English" would
> cause it to be displayed as "English" rather than the translation of
> "English (USA)" for any non-English view of those pages.

Agreed. What I was referring to when I said "po string" was the rest of
the translated text that is in English (field descriptions, etc.)   I
just presumed that converting "English (USA)" to "English" was a
translation that would occur in each po file.

I just keep getting reminded that we specifically support USA English
and we offer no other English language support.

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] English (USA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2019-07-08 at 12:46 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 7/8/19 12:15 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Now I'm confused. :-)  I know about the differences in UK and US English
> > are in general (color vs colour, etc), but I don't know about the
> > differences within Mailman.  Adding to my confusion is that my Mailman
> > installs only have "English (USA)" and no "English (UK)", let alone any
> > of the other English speaking countries.
> 
> 
> Actually, there is no English (en, en-US, en-UK or other) message
> catalog distributed with Mailman. There are templates, but no message
> catalog. All of the translatable strings in the Mailman code are written
> in English, and since there is no English message catalog, they are
> untranslated when the target language is English.
> 
> As far as whether or not any of the strings are specifically US rather
> than generic English is concerned, I don't know. One would have to audit
> the messages/mailman.pot file to determine that.
> 
> However, I think a requirement that Mailman use only "generic" English
> and avoid any en-US that differs from other dialects would be unduly
> restrictive.

Just to be clear, I'm not proposing changes to any po strings, rather
just the labels.  The end result would be just "English" in the list of
available languages for a list instead of "English (USA)".

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] English (USA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2019-07-08 at 21:06 +0200, Christian F Buser wrote:
> Hi Jim
> 
> I do not know about where the English (US) and English (UK) languages differ 
> in Mailman. But in school, half a century ago, I learnt (learned) about the 
> differences in general. For example color / colour, center / centre, etc. 
> 
> And there are other expressions which are completely different in UK English 
> and US English - see 
> .
>  There are probably many more. 
> 
> So if you want to "unify" those two, which variant to choose? Or better blend 
> them into one - changing the spelling from one occurence to the other? 
> 
> Christian 
>  

Now I'm confused. :-)  I know about the differences in UK and US English
are in general (color vs colour, etc), but I don't know about the
differences within Mailman.  Adding to my confusion is that my Mailman
installs only have "English (USA)" and no "English (UK)", let alone any
of the other English speaking countries.

- -Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] English (USA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

It has been brought to my attention again that Mailman supports one
dialect of English, but declares that it the USA variant.  What in
Mailman makes the English language (translations?) specific to USA?

In the interest of world perspectives, would a patch to convert it to
just "English" be welcomed?

- -Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] What to do about SPF rejection?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2019-06-17 at 12:47 -0400, John Levine wrote:
> In article  you write:
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > I today saw three bounces where the receiving mail server had said:
> > 
> > host mail.gfbv.de[185.199.217.16] said: 550 external MTA
> >sending our header From:    (in reply to
> >end of DATA command)
> > 
> > The SPF record for gfbv.de is
> > 
> > gfbv.de.86400   IN  TXT "v=spf1 mx 
> > a:epicmail1.newsaktuell.net ~all"
> > 
> > I am not sure, whether mailman 2 has any workaround for this like for
> > the DMARC issue
> > 
> > Can anyone spot, whether there is something wrong with the SPF record?
> > Whose fault is it?
> 
> Theirs.  That message says they apparently have a policy of rejecting
> any incoming mail with their domain on the From: line.  They can do
> that if they want, but it means that none of their users can
> participate in mailing lists.
> 
> I suppose you could further screw up your list and do DMARC rewrites
> even for domains without DMARC policies, but I'd suggest contacting
> whoever is subscribed there and encourage him or her to subscribe from
> an address that isn't gratuitiously hostile to mailing lists.

I've experienced similar before, some people work for large companies
that outsource email policies to others^widiots.  I wrote the patch
below, which was merged into v2.1.29, specifically to address for such
idiotic policies.

https://code.launchpad.net/~jimpop/mailman/dmarc-moderation-addresses/+merge/359963

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading mm 2.1.26 on Ubuntu 18.04 to 2.1.29

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Thu, 2019-05-23 at 09:40 -0400, Fabian A. Santiago wrote:
> also, that wiki page you sent me mention an error with missing dnspython
> and it states to run this:
> 
> "sudo apt-get install python-dnspython"
> 
> but that claims it's already installed, yet the error occurs. what i
> found you want to install is the package "python-dev".
> 

python-dev should only be necessary if you are building Mailman from
source.  If you are installing from PPA/apt/rpm/dpkg/etc you should only
need python-dnspython

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading mm 2.1.26 on Ubuntu 18.04 to 2.1.29

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Thu, 2019-05-23 at 09:04 -0400, Fabian A. Santiago wrote:
> 
> Thanks for this heads up. i should also mention adding the ppa to my apt
> sources fails on gpg signing key import. i had to do it manually,
> searching for the key on ubuntu's keyserver.

Can you provide some more details on this, please.  Was this possibly
due to you not being able to follow the default PPA instructions of
using "add-apt-repository"? 

I just update the Mailman PPA to include this text above the area that
details how to add a PPA to an Ubuntu system.

   The details below are automatically provided by Launchpad and
   not edible by Mailman Administrators. One important bit that is
   missing below is that the command line program "add-apt-repository"
   is available in the stock Ubuntu package "software-properties-common"
   which may need to be installed on your system.

hth.

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading mm 2.1.26 on Ubuntu 18.04 to 2.1.29

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Wed, 2019-05-22 at 08:42 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 5/21/19 5:20 PM, Fabian Aldo Santiago wrote:
> > 
> > So I started over (restored snapshot) and then tried adding a ppa apt 
> > source which contains 2.1.29:
> > 
> > https://launchpad.net/~mailman-administrivia/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
> > 
> > Installed with an IO error over a lock file purported to be from one of my 
> > lists but otherwise started ok. But sending an email produced an error 
> > complaining:
> > 
> > The mail system
> > 
> > : Command died with status 2: "/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman
> >  post list". Command output: Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the
> >  mail wrapper script to be executed as group "daemon", but the system's mail
> >  server executed the mail script as group "list". Try tweaking the mail
> >  server to run the script as group "daemon", or re-run configure, providing
> >  the command line option `--with-mail-gid=list'.
> 
> 
> This is a group mismatch in the /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman wrapper.
> See  for more on group mismatch.
> 
> This may be an issue with the ppa which is maintained by @jimpop who
> reads this list and may chime in.
> 
> However, Postfix is running the wrapper as group 'list' because 'list'
> is the owner of Mailman's data/aliases.db file. You can change this by
> `chown daemon data/aliases.db` but you need to ensure that that file is
> still group 'list' and group writable for Mailman to be able to update
> it as lists are added/deleted.


New PPAs were released a few hours ago that address this userid mis-
match problem.

- -Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Restrict archives to Administrator

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2019-04-18 at 17:23 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mark Dale writes:
> 
>  > I've posted some notes on restricting a list's archive to Administrators
>  > only. They may be of use to some folks.
> 
> Could you say something about the use case?  If there's a common
> enough reason for doing this, we (the committers) should think about
> adding such features to Mailman 3 (Mailman 2 is up to Mark, but I
> think he really really wants that in security mods only mode).  But I
> don't see the point, since subscribers (moderated or not) will be
> receiving (and can locally archive) the posts.
> 
>  > It's a hack of Jim Popovitch's code which restricts archive access to
>  > unmoderated subscribers.
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> The only scenario where either of these restrictions makes sense to me
> (given my own experience) would be

Ack.  It's a narrow need, but there are reasons. Not every list is for raw
public consumption.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2019-04-10 at 09:25 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> The path forward is to increase the community of MM 3 users which will
> result in more people contributing to the project and faster progress.

What Mailman things need assistance in MM3?  I've avoided jumping in because
honestly every time I looked it seemed like all the focus was everything but
the email reflector bits.

-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Moderating if keywords mentioned?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sat, 2019-02-23 at 08:04 +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> Thanks. I assume that will work on subject lines, will it also
> allow filtering on the message body? If not, is there any way
> to do that?

It won't work on msg body text.  To do that you would need a custom
handler (Mark sent that in his email), or use something like
SpamAssassin and specify the SpamAssassin header like so:

X-Spam-Status:.*LIKELY_SPAM_BODY

Or as Mark also stated, you can write a custom SpamAssassin rule to add
headers for your own body matches.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Moderating if keywords mentioned?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On February 22, 2019 6:33:48 PM UTC, Peter Shute  wrote:
>Is it possible to specify keywords that will cause a matching message
>to
>held for moderation? I thought I'd seen something like this, but I
>can't
>find it in the admin interface.
>


It's under Privacy Options -> Spam Filters.

Set a regex for whatever you want to catch, set the action to Hold.

Ex:

Subject: .*[Oo]ut.*[Oo]ffice.*


hth,

-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman & DMARC question

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2018-11-05 at 10:07 -0600, David Gibbs wrote:
> My quandary is: Is there any risk in implementing my own more
> restrictive DMARC policy?
> 
> Currently my DMARC policy is 'p=none' ... but I'd like to change that
> to 'p=quarantine'.
> 
> Is there any risk running mailing lists from a domain with that DMARC
> policy?
> 
> My theory is that there isn't ... since DMARC is mainly concerned with
> the from address and, as long as mail sent from my domain aligns with
> the DMARC policy, everything should be good.
> 
> Is this correct ... or am I missing something?

You are correct, as long as the SPF and DKIM align you can set a
restrictive DMARC policy.  In addition to your p=none, you should add
ruf= and rua= stanzas so that you can see today what impact your present
DMARC settings have.

DMARC on your list domain will also help with any delivery issues for
list notifications, as well as any DMARC wrapped posts.

Further, you can test your setup by creating a test list, and then
subscribing and sending a list email to any of these:

  check-a...@verifier.port25.com 
  autore...@dmarctest.org
  autorespond+d...@dk.elandsys.com
  ch...@dmarcanalyzer.com
  checkmya...@auth.returnpath.net

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] GPG Sig parse error

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 16:48 -0600, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 11/01/2018 01:49 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Apologies Grant it this is too much discussion of you :-) I'm only
> > trying 
> > to get to the root of the issue.
> 
> No problem.
> 
> I'm using S/MIME, not PGP (GPG).
> 
> Let's see if this makes it through happier.

Indeed it does.

Thx again Mark for the changes, and Grant for testing.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] GPG Sig parse error (was: Re: mm-handler starting version)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 13:07 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/1/18 12:43 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > 
> > Here's what I see https://i.imgur.com/xLDnojI.png in Evolution.  I
> > was wrong to assume it was a PGP parse error, it does however look
> > to be a pkcs7 sig parse error... and I'm clueless about how to
> > investigate that.
> > :-)
> 
> The list's content filtering was removing the
> application/pkcs7-signature part. I have now added
> application/pkcs7-signature to pass_mime_types
> (application/pgp-signature was already passed).
> 
> That should help.


Thanks Mark!  I completely missed guessing that it was a being stripped
by content filtering.  


-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] GPG Sig parse error (was: Re: mm-handler starting version)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 15:43 -0400, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > On 11/1/18 12:11 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 12:27 -0600, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users
> > > wrote:
> > > > Error verifying signature: parse error
> > > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > I changed the subject and have GPG signed this message.  I've done
> > > this
> > > because I keep seeing GPG Sig parse errors for Grant's emails that
> > > traverse this list, but not other lists.  I'm curious if my sig
> > > produces
> > > a parse error on this list or if anyone else sees a parse error on
> > > Grant's emails... and ideally to get to the bottom of what is
> > > causing
> > > the problem.
> > 
> > 
> > Your sig verifies fine. Grant's sig is not a PGP signature. It is a
> > pkcs7-signature. 
> 
> Well that makes more sense, I suppose I should have first looked into
> the msg source.
> 
> > Your MUA should not be attempting to process it via PGP/GPG.
> 
> Here's what I see https://i.imgur.com/xLDnojI.png in Evolution. 

And for completion here's what I see for Grant's emails to the Bind-
Users list:  https://i.imgur.com/gOEXlh9.png

Apologies Grant it this is too much discussion of you :-) I'm only
trying to get to the root of the issue.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] GPG Sig parse error (was: Re: mm-handler starting version)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/1/18 12:11 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 12:27 -0600, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users
> > wrote:
> > >   Error verifying signature: parse error
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I changed the subject and have GPG signed this message.  I've done
> > this
> > because I keep seeing GPG Sig parse errors for Grant's emails that
> > traverse this list, but not other lists.  I'm curious if my sig
> > produces
> > a parse error on this list or if anyone else sees a parse error on
> > Grant's emails... and ideally to get to the bottom of what is
> > causing
> > the problem.
> 
> 
> Your sig verifies fine. Grant's sig is not a PGP signature. It is a
> pkcs7-signature. 

Well that makes more sense, I suppose I should have first looked into
the msg source.

> Your MUA should not be attempting to process it via PGP/GPG.

Here's what I see https://i.imgur.com/xLDnojI.png in Evolution.  I was
wrong to assume it was a PGP parse error, it does however look to be a 
pkcs7 sig parse error... and I'm clueless about how to investigate that.
:-)

- -Jim P.



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[Mailman-Users] GPG Sig parse error (was: Re: mm-handler starting version)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Thu, 2018-11-01 at 12:27 -0600, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>   Error verifying signature: parse error

Hello,

I changed the subject and have GPG signed this message.  I've done this
because I keep seeing GPG Sig parse errors for Grant's emails that
traverse this list, but not other lists.  I'm curious if my sig produces
a parse error on this list or if anyone else sees a parse error on
Grant's emails... and ideally to get to the bottom of what is causing
the problem.

- -Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] new Mailman Ubuntu builds (PPA)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hello,

With some help from Mark and Barry, I was able to setup build "recipes"
(Ubuntu Launchpad configurations) that will now automatically build and
publish the latest greatest Mailman 2.x source that Mark releases. 
That's right, it's all auto-magical.  When Mark pushes an update to
Mailman, Lauchpad detects it and builds and releases packages (.debs) in
the new Mailman PPA.


The 5 build variants are:

  mailman
 https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1

  mailman-htdig
 https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig

  mailman-htdig-mhonarc
 https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig_mhonarc

  mailman-mhonarc
  https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/mhonarc

  mailman-vhost
  https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/vhost


The currently released distributions are:

Ubuntu/Precise LTS (12.04)
Ubuntu/Trusty LTS (14.04)
Ubuntu/Xenial LTS (16.04)
Ubuntu/Bionic LTS (18.04)
Ubuntu/Cosmic (18.10)

...across these processor architectures:

AMD x86-64 (amd64)
    ARM ARMv8 (arm64)
    ARM ARMv7 Soft Float (armel)
    ARM ARMv7 Hard Float (armhf)
    Intel x86 (i386)
    PowerPC (powerpc)
    PowerPC64 Little-Endian (ppc64el)
    IBM System z (s390x)

That's right, fire up your System Z and create a near infinite number of
lists.  :-)


For more information on the new Mailman PPA, please see this link:
https://launchpad.net/~mailman-administrivia/+archive/ubuntu/ppa

- -Jim P.





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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 11:01 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
> geniuses and technically their service really rock. 

Next time you're on one of their nodes do this:

egrep "(MHz|model name)" /proc/cpuinfo

For less $$ you can get newer/faster hardware elsewhere (and some even
come with pure SSD RAID10 storage)  All I'm saying is that it pays to
shop around.

model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
cpu MHz : 3695.998
model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
cpu MHz : 3695.998


model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
cpu MHz : 3400.022
model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
cpu MHz : 3400.022


- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help setting up mailman

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 08:47 -0400, Matthew Draft wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm new to mailman and could use some advise as far as setting up a
> new listserv.  Do I need to rent server space to hold the list data?

Hi,

If you don't want to rent a server and install and maintain mailman, you
can find a list of Mailman hosting services here:

https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services


-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected password reminder from this list

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-08-06 at 19:00 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/06/2018 11:08 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > 
> > What's your thoughts on adding reCAPTCHA to the 2nd half of the
> > listinfo page in order to mitigate some of that?
> 
> At this point I have no interest. I think most "other address"
> password requests are either inadvertence, curiosity, or malice on
> the part of humans.
> 
> If and when I see evidence of massive robotic reminder requests, I
> may rethink this, but I note that the implementation of reCAPTCHA on
> the web subscribe form on all Mailman 2.1 @python.org lists didn't
> seem to make much of a dent in the bogus web subscribes we were
> seeing despite the fact that the form must first be retrieved by GET
> and then the POST can't come too soon thereafter.
> 

Ack.  FWIW, I think that's a healthy attitude about this.   

Thanks,

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected password reminder from this list

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-08-06 at 16:20 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> On 08/06/2018 02:08 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > 
> > What's your thoughts on adding reCAPTCHA to the 2nd half of the
> > listinfo page in order to mitigate some of that?
> 
> 
> I don't want google to know about my users and I don't want people to
> unblock google in order to get passwords

I don't disagree with that, and I understand where you're coming from. 
  I wish Redhat/Ubuntu/Debian would take the lead on an alternative.

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected password reminder from this list

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-08-06 at 05:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On August 6, 2018 3:14:05 AM PDT, Jayson Smith  .com> wrote:
> > Hi again,
> > 
> > This was not a monthly password reminder. It specifically said
> > that 
> > "You—or someone posing as you—has requested" this password
> > reminder.
> 
> 
> Anyone can request a password reminder for any address from either
> the options or private archive login pages.
> 


What's your thoughts on adding reCAPTCHA to the 2nd half of the
listinfo page in order to mitigate some of that?

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] enabling reCAPTCHA for older lists

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Sun, 2018-07-22 at 16:36 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 07/22/2018 12:49 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > 
> > What could be set for an older list that would break reCAPTCHAs?
> 
> 
> A list specific listinfo template.
> 
> At rev 1218 (in 2.1.24), I changed the default listinfo templates.
> See
> <https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/12
> 18#templates/en/listinfo.html>.
> 
> The change that affects reCAPTCHA is moving 
> from line 29 to line 68. List specific templates that have that line
> in the old place don't work with the reCAPTCHA feature.
> 

Thanks Mark!!  That was it.

- -Jim P.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

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[Mailman-Users] enabling reCAPTCHA for older lists

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hello,

I've crossed over into reCAPTCHA hell (voluntarily!) currently
looking for a savior.

I have followed all the instructions in Defaults.py, and I have created
the google account and setup the site-key and secret-key in mm_cfg.py,
and restated MM. (this is v2.1.27)

Everything works fine on newly created lists.  HOWEVER, older existing
lists (from years ago) present the following browser error to the user:

   reCAPTCHA validation failed: missing-input-response 

along with the following browser console debug warning:

   A form was submitted in the windows-1252 encoding which cannot
   encode all Unicode characters, so user input may get corrupted.
   To avoid this problem, the page should be changed so that the 
   form is submitted in the UTF-8 encoding either by changing the
   encoding of the page itself to UTF-8 or by specifying accept-
   charset=utf-8 on the form element.

I've done diff's of the config-text of a new and old list, and the diff
output shows nothing more than domains, filters, privacy differences
between each list.

What could be set for an older list that would break reCAPTCHAs?

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] non-subscribers getting through--email address in "Real Name"

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On July 19, 2018 6:53:52 PM UTC, Jim Popovitch  wrote:
>On July 19, 2018 5:28:24 PM UTC, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>>On 07/19/2018 08:02 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have often wondered about enhancing Mailman, or augmenting it with
>>a
>>> milter, to be able to test the SMTP envelope from, to, and body
>>content
>>> against list parameters and be able to reject messages during the
>>SMTP
>>> delivery transaction.
>>
>>
>>You might be interested in
>>.
>
>Here's an alternate take on the same thing that I wrote a couple years
>back.

With link this time!

https://code.launchpad.net/~jimpop/mailman/check_subscriber

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] non-subscribers getting through--email address in "Real Name"

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On July 19, 2018 5:28:24 PM UTC, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>On 07/19/2018 08:02 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> 
>> I have often wondered about enhancing Mailman, or augmenting it with
>a
>> milter, to be able to test the SMTP envelope from, to, and body
>content
>> against list parameters and be able to reject messages during the
>SMTP
>> delivery transaction.
>
>
>You might be interested in
>.

Here's an alternate take on the same thing that I wrote a couple years back.




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Re: [Mailman-Users] pending subscription to list "mailman"

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-06-11 at 12:21 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 6/11/18 10:26 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > 
> > For some unknown reason a legitimate human sent a subscribe request
> > to 
> > mailman-subscr...@domain.tld and now I'm receiving pending
> > subscriber
> > notifications for the "mailman" list, which isn't a list with an
> > available web interface.  Is there a cmd line way to discard
> > pending
> > subscribers?
> 
> Why do you think there's no web interface. Have you tried going to
> http(s)://any.of.your.domains/admindb/mailman/ ?

There's no web interface on domain.tld because it's the backend domain
that's hosting virtual lists.

Using one of the virtual domains, as you described, works to show the
pending sub request, but Submit action is based on mlist settings
(domain.tld) so the submit never occurs.

> There are a couple of scripts at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/>,
> namely 'erase' and 'list_requests' that can do the discard.

Perfect, thanks!

> 
> > Also, should the mailman/data/aliases.db even contain aliases for
> > the
> > mailman list?
> 
> 
> The address mail...@domain.tld is exposed in both the listinfo and
> admin
> overview pages as a place for questions. Also,
> mailman-boun...@domain.tld is the envelope sender of password
> reminders
> and some owner notices and some MTA configurations don't accept
> outging
> mail that isn't from a deliverable address, although I think this is
> mostly an Exim issue and Exim doesn't use aliases.
> 
> Also, if you don't put a MAILTO in Mailman's crontab, any errors from
> Mailman's crons will be sent to mail...@domain.tld.
> 
> For all these reasons, I recommend setting up the 'mailman' list with
> the Mailman site admins as owners and members and setting
> generic_nonmember_action to accept.
> 
> Anyway, the short answer to "should the mailman/data/aliases.db even
> contain aliases for the mailman list?" is Yes, but if it makes sense
> in
> your installation to remove them, you can.

I'm going to leave them but disable (comment out) the
subscribe/join/etc ones.

Thanks for the help!

- -Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] pending subscription to list "mailman"

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hello,

For some unknown reason a legitimate human sent a subscribe request to 
mailman-subscr...@domain.tld and now I'm receiving pending subscriber
notifications for the "mailman" list, which isn't a list with an
available web interface.  Is there a cmd line way to discard pending
subscribers?

Also, should the mailman/data/aliases.db even contain aliases for the
mailman list?

tia,

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus Subscriptions (was: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 172, Issue 6)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On June 5, 2018 1:22:54 AM UTC, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>On 06/04/2018 05:48 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> I have applied the attached patch to a couple of installations. We'll
>> see if it helps.
>
>
>I have made this a feature contingent on setting
>
>mm_cfg.BLOCK_SPAMHAUS_LISTED_IP_SUBSCRIBE = Yes
>

Thank you very much Mark.  The latest patch (from bzr) applies cleanly and 
there's something new in the vette log already:

Jun 05 04:55:44 2018 (1812) Users banned subscription: i...@bitbroker.co.uk 
from 116.255.35.23 (Spamhaus IP)

Very nice!

Thanks again,

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus Subscriptions (was: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 172, Issue 6)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-06-04 at 18:10 -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-06-04 at 14:48 -0700, Russell Clemings wrote:
> > They seem to be changing their tactics pretty much regularly now.
> > Just
> > tailing the subscribe log I see all of these:
> > 
> > Jun 04 21:28:16 2018 (16689) LISTNAME1: pending Steven Lugo <
> > supp...@quickbitcoin.co.uk>  159.203.88.55
> > Jun 04 21:30:06 2018 (17063) LISTNAME1: pending Steve Asher <
> > supp...@bitcoin.com.au>  185.237.98.51
> > Jun 04 21:30:38 2018 (17503) LISTNAME2: pending Sterling Leng <
> > supp...@vaultoro.com>  185.237.98.51
> > Jun 04 21:31:26 2018 (17651) LISTNAME3: pending Cristina Hibbard <
> > supp...@vaultoro.com>  59.152.95.54
> > Jun 04 21:32:01 2018 (17754) LISTNAME3: pending Kirk Maddox <
> > supp...@bitcoin.com.au>  185.237.98.51
> > Jun 04 21:33:58 2018 (18188) LISTNAME4: pending Jarrod Rand <
> > supp...@vaultoro.com>  80.211.240.206
> > Jun 04 21:36:54 2018 (19212) LISTNAME5: pending Anna Glen <
> > supp...@quickbitcoin.co.uk>  159.203.88.55
> > Jun 04 21:36:59 2018 (19231) LISTNAME1: pending John Savage <
> > supp...@bitflyer.com>  39.137.69.9
> > Jun 04 21:38:21 2018 (19476) LISTNAME4: pending Sarah Adami <
> > supp...@coindirect.com>  185.237.98.51
> > 
> 
> Interesting, I see delimited email addrs for those same domains.
> 
> Jun 04 20:57:11 2018 (5670) users: pending James Sturgill
>  @quickbitcoin.co.uk>  111.13.56.16
> Jun 04 21:19:10 2018 (7469) users: pending John Heninger
>  @bitflyer.com>  152.231.81.122
> Jun 04 21:35:52 2018 (8894) users: pending Judith Route
>  vaultoro.com>  149.202.38.124
> Jun 04 21:42:25 2018 (9149) users: pending Donna Watts
>  @vaultoro.com>  212.73.137.45
> Jun 04 21:49:33 2018 (9323) users: pending Justin Rybij
>  r...@bitflyer.com>  67.197.233.15
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> here's the list I've accumulated so far:
> alec768+kx...@gmail.com
> alec768+kyc...@gmail.com
> alec768+orf...@gmail.com
> alec768+tm...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+e...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+hrr...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+nbkd...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+vhffi...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+vlk...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+vns...@gmail.com
> alexmanalo76+zas...@gmail.com
> cybertuna94+c...@gmail.com
> cybertuna94+gjuht...@gmail.com
> cybertuna94+jh...@gmail.com
> cybertuna94+wdlg...@gmail.com
> cybertuna94+xgos...@gmail.com
> cybertuna94+x...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+fy...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+piurl...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+rv...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+ta...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+vwsg...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+wf...@gmail.com
> desertkaiju+z...@gmail.com
> khongthong94+badu...@gmail.com
> khongthong94+bhct...@gmail.com
> khongthong94+veya...@gmail.com
> spikedmauler+j...@gmail.com
> sqrlyjack+hbql...@gmail.com
> sqrlyjack+hd...@gmail.com
> sqrlyjack+ny...@gmail.com
> sqrlyjack+vamj...@gmail.com
> sqrlyjack+vdflt...@gmail.com
> support+jzmpf...@bitflyer.com
> support+q...@quickbitcoin.co.uk
> support+qw...@bitflyer.com
> support+xw...@vaultoro.com
> support+yvdm...@vaultoro.com
> tinyowl94+dcjf...@gmail.com
> tinyowl94+ftmyd...@gmail.com
> tinyowl94+kff...@gmail.com
> tinyowl94+pfa...@gmail.com
> tinyowl94+s...@gmail.com
> tinyowl94+zo...@gmail.com
> yllwdg+gitv...@gmail.com
> 
> And these are the IPs:
> 
> 101.132.136.83
> 103.35.168.166
> 110.37.200.83
> 111.13.56.16
> 121.10.118.70
> 138.122.2.7
> 139.224.24.26
> 144.76.62.29
> 149.13.80.46
> 149.202.38.124
> 150.109.44.245
> 152.231.81.122
> 176.235.99.166
> 179.180.144.28
> 181.118.183.153
> 186.251.102.85
> 187.106.238.241
> 187.12.46.218
> 187.190.221.71
> 187.245.88.185
> 188.211.227.149
> 189.76.93.64
> 190.12.47.246
> 190.144.39.34
> 190.214.1.26
> 191.0.70.90
> 193.165.144.66
> 197.210.216.22
> 197.255.255.91
> 200.165.177.66
> 200.202.229.218
> 201.10.154.50
> 201.49.98.58
> 202.179.186.138
> 202.179.4.70
> 202.191.121.171
> 212.49.84.113
> 212.73.137.45
> 218.60.8.99
> 221.214.208.226
> 36.67.233.131
> 67.197.233.15
> 78.66.102.104
> 80.122.84.246

BTW, most of those IPs are listed in the XBL (https://www.spamhaus.org/
xbl/).  I think I'll work on a patch to block signups from IPs in the
XBL and domains in the DBL (https://www.spamhaus.org/dbl/)

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus Subscriptions (was: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 172, Issue 6)

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-06-04 at 14:48 -0700, Russell Clemings wrote:
> They seem to be changing their tactics pretty much regularly now.
> Just
> tailing the subscribe log I see all of these:
> 
> Jun 04 21:28:16 2018 (16689) LISTNAME1: pending Steven Lugo <
> supp...@quickbitcoin.co.uk>  159.203.88.55
> Jun 04 21:30:06 2018 (17063) LISTNAME1: pending Steve Asher <
> supp...@bitcoin.com.au>  185.237.98.51
> Jun 04 21:30:38 2018 (17503) LISTNAME2: pending Sterling Leng <
> supp...@vaultoro.com>  185.237.98.51
> Jun 04 21:31:26 2018 (17651) LISTNAME3: pending Cristina Hibbard <
> supp...@vaultoro.com>  59.152.95.54
> Jun 04 21:32:01 2018 (17754) LISTNAME3: pending Kirk Maddox <
> supp...@bitcoin.com.au>  185.237.98.51
> Jun 04 21:33:58 2018 (18188) LISTNAME4: pending Jarrod Rand <
> supp...@vaultoro.com>  80.211.240.206
> Jun 04 21:36:54 2018 (19212) LISTNAME5: pending Anna Glen <
> supp...@quickbitcoin.co.uk>  159.203.88.55
> Jun 04 21:36:59 2018 (19231) LISTNAME1: pending John Savage <
> supp...@bitflyer.com>  39.137.69.9
> Jun 04 21:38:21 2018 (19476) LISTNAME4: pending Sarah Adami <
> supp...@coindirect.com>  185.237.98.51
> 

Interesting, I see delimited email addrs for those same domains.

Jun 04 20:57:11 2018 (5670) users: pending James Sturgill   111.13.56.16
Jun 04 21:19:10 2018 (7469) users: pending John Heninger   152.231.81.122
Jun 04 21:35:52 2018 (8894) users: pending Judith Route   149.202.38.124
Jun 04 21:42:25 2018 (9149) users: pending Donna Watts   212.73.137.45
Jun 04 21:49:33 2018 (9323) users: pending Justin Rybij   67.197.233.15

FWIW,

here's the list I've accumulated so far:
alec768+kx...@gmail.com
alec768+kyc...@gmail.com
alec768+orf...@gmail.com
alec768+tm...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+e...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+hrr...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+nbkd...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+vhffi...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+vlk...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+vns...@gmail.com
alexmanalo76+zas...@gmail.com
cybertuna94+c...@gmail.com
cybertuna94+gjuht...@gmail.com
cybertuna94+jh...@gmail.com
cybertuna94+wdlg...@gmail.com
cybertuna94+xgos...@gmail.com
cybertuna94+x...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+fy...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+piurl...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+rv...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+ta...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+vwsg...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+wf...@gmail.com
desertkaiju+z...@gmail.com
khongthong94+badu...@gmail.com
khongthong94+bhct...@gmail.com
khongthong94+veya...@gmail.com
spikedmauler+j...@gmail.com
sqrlyjack+hbql...@gmail.com
sqrlyjack+hd...@gmail.com
sqrlyjack+ny...@gmail.com
sqrlyjack+vamj...@gmail.com
sqrlyjack+vdflt...@gmail.com
support+jzmpf...@bitflyer.com
support+q...@quickbitcoin.co.uk
support+qw...@bitflyer.com
support+xw...@vaultoro.com
support+yvdm...@vaultoro.com
tinyowl94+dcjf...@gmail.com
tinyowl94+ftmyd...@gmail.com
tinyowl94+kff...@gmail.com
tinyowl94+pfa...@gmail.com
tinyowl94+s...@gmail.com
tinyowl94+zo...@gmail.com
yllwdg+gitv...@gmail.com

And these are the IPs:

101.132.136.83
103.35.168.166
110.37.200.83
111.13.56.16
121.10.118.70
138.122.2.7
139.224.24.26
144.76.62.29
149.13.80.46
149.202.38.124
150.109.44.245
152.231.81.122
176.235.99.166
179.180.144.28
181.118.183.153
186.251.102.85
187.106.238.241
187.12.46.218
187.190.221.71
187.245.88.185
188.211.227.149
189.76.93.64
190.12.47.246
190.144.39.34
190.214.1.26
191.0.70.90
193.165.144.66
197.210.216.22
197.255.255.91
200.165.177.66
200.202.229.218
201.10.154.50
201.49.98.58
202.179.186.138
202.179.4.70
202.191.121.171
212.49.84.113
212.73.137.45
218.60.8.99
221.214.208.226
36.67.233.131
67.197.233.15
78.66.102.104
80.122.84.246

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Any scripting available for global site admin

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-06-04 at 18:47 +, Parker, Michael D. wrote:
> I have mailman 2.x and am specifically interested in knowing how to
> do the following two tasks:
> 
> 
> 1.   List all users with all their mailing lists

list_members -h

> 
> 2.   Globally remove a user from all mailing lists


remove_members -h


- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fail2ban on the Mailman web interface

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On June 3, 2018 5:44:17 PM UTC, Henrique Fagundes  
wrote:
>Dear,
>
>Where should I put this file?
>First I put it in "/ etc / mailman", and it did not work.
>

It's intended to be an example of modifications that can be made to Utils.py in 
order to get better logging.  If you look in the mischief log there should 
already be some errors related to failures.   I don't use fail2ban, but there 
should be examples in /etc/fail2ban/scripts.d (I think that's the dir) that you 
can modify to process /car/log/mailman/mischief.

-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fail2ban on the Mailman web interface

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Sun, 2018-06-03 at 13:52 -0300, Henrique Fagundes wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> Good afternoon!
> 
> I begin by apologizing for the fact that this text is difficult to 
> interpret because I am Brazilian and I do not have many English
> language 
> skills.
> 
> I'm having a hard time using Fail2Ban along with MailMan mailing
> list 
> management software.
> 
> My idea is that when the attacker / attacker incorrectly enters the 
> password of the login field in the web interface, it is blocked. But
> for 
> this to work, it is necessary for MailMan to report unsuccessful
> login 
> attempts in its log.
> 
> I have already checked to see if there is a plugin or extension
> (just 
> like it exists for Wordpress and PHPMyAdmin), but it seems like there
> is 
> nothing developed for this.
> 
> So I would like to know if anyone has ever had the need to do this 
> implementation, so I can have some way.
> 
> If anyone can help me, I will be very grateful.

Hello,

I use the attached patch for Mailman/Utils.py to log the listname and
remoteIP to the mischief log.

Mark, if you think this should be in the regular release let me know
and I'll submit a merge request.

-Jim P.

=== modified file 'Mailman/Utils.py'
--- Mailman/Utils.py	2015-09-17 17:11:08 +
+++ Mailman/Utils.py	2015-10-20 13:36:09 +
@@ -104,7 +104,11 @@
 # But first ensure the list name doesn't contain a path traversal
 # attack.
 if len(re.sub(mm_cfg.ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS, '', listname)) > 0:
-syslog('mischief', 'Hostile listname: %s', listname)
+remote = os.environ.get('HTTP_FORWARDED_FOR',
+ os.environ.get('HTTP_X_FORWARDED_FOR',
+ os.environ.get('REMOTE_ADDR',
+'unidentified origin')))
+syslog('mischief', 'Hostile listname: listname=%s remote=%s', listname, remote)
 return False
 basepath = Site.get_listpath(listname)
 for ext in ('.pck', '.pck.last', '.db', '.db.last'):



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Spam Subscriptions

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Sat, 2018-06-02 at 20:50 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Are they just script kiddies trying to be noticed or are they
> actually trying to accomplish something.

I don't think they know what potential they have, but they know there
has to be something worth building a collection for.  I'm fairly
confident that they've achieved some level of non-moderated
subscriptions on some lists, the question is what do they intend to do
with that megaphone.

- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Probable bug in Bouncers/DSN.py

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Argh!  This was intended for just Mark, not the whole list.  Sigh.

- -Jim P.

On Thu, 2018-05-24 at 11:40 -0400, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> Given a bounce msg with a subpart of:
> 
> 
>   message/delivery-status:
>  Final-Recipient: rfc822;u...@domain.tld
>  Action: failed
>  Status: 5.1.10
>  Diagnostic-Code: smtp;550 5.1.10
> RESOLVER.ADR.RecipientNotFound; 
> 
> 
> and the code beginning at Bouncers/DSN.py:64
> 
> params = []
> foundp = False
> for header
> in ('original-recipient', 'final-recipient'):
> for k, v
> in msgblock.get_params([], header):
> if k.lower() ==
> 'rfc822':
> foundp = True
> else:
> params.append(k)
> if foundp:
>  
>    # Note that params should already be unquoted.
>   
>   addrs.extend(params)
> break
> 
> 
> It appears that "params" is never populated and thus the bounce score
> is never incremented for the user.   
> 
> I was intending to release a patch for this but my dev system is
> showing an odd python issue where once "k.lower()" is evaluated the
> variable v is no longer available. O.o
> 
> -Jim 
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[Mailman-Users] Probable bug in Bouncers/DSN.py

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hello!

Given a bounce msg with a subpart of:


  message/delivery-status:
 Final-Recipient: rfc822;u...@domain.tld
 Action: failed
 Status: 5.1.10
 Diagnostic-Code: smtp;550 5.1.10 RESOLVER.ADR.RecipientNotFound; 


and the code beginning at Bouncers/DSN.py:64

params = []
foundp = False
for header
in ('original-recipient', 'final-recipient'):
for k, v
in msgblock.get_params([], header):
if k.lower() ==
'rfc822':
foundp = True
else:
params.append(k)
if foundp:
 
   # Note that params should already be unquoted.
  
  addrs.extend(params)
break


It appears that "params" is never populated and thus the bounce score
is never incremented for the user.   

I was intending to release a patch for this but my dev system is
showing an odd python issue where once "k.lower()" is evaluated the
variable v is no longer available. O.o

- -Jim 
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