getting money to deraadt@ [Was: Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?]
dera...@openbsd.org (Theo de Raadt), 2015.12.02 (Wed) 02:18 (CET): > >I don't think that quite covers it. Those of us who have the choice > >can send checks or Paypal money directly to Theo, as described on the > >Donations page. I think checks are preferable, because they eliminate > >Paypal skimming its credit-card-like fees, at the cost of a stamp. The > >CDs also involve paying a middle-man. > > Completely true. Also it is a 20 minute walk each way to the bank, > and keyboard folk need to do more walks. Theo, sending money to the account below gets it to you directly, right? (though it undermines your walking training, sorry ;-) from donations.html to bank-donation.html, haven't seen this mentioned in the thread yet: >From Inside Europe (SEPA): IBAN: DE91 7007 0024 0338 1779 00 BIC: DEUTDEDBMUC Name: Theo de Raadt Address: Deutsche Bank, Marienplatz 21 80331 M?nchen, Germany >From outside Europe: SWIFT: DEUTDEDBMUC Account: 7007 0024 0338 1779 00 Name: Theo de Raadt Address: Deutsche Bank, Marienplatz 21 80331 M?nchen, Germany Bye, Marcus > !DSPAM:565e47d1289635898012334!
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:20 PM, frantisek holop wrote: > hmm, on Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:36:25AM -0700, Tom Bodr said that > > > https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa/ > > (sorry for the OT, but:) > it is interesting to see other bsd users > looking at linux "from the outside" coming > to similiar realizations, namely: > > the linux kernel is headed into dark dark lands. > and it will be a veritable black day in calendar(1) > when systemd becomes the default on debian, one > of the few somewhat usable distributions. > "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it" http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#44 Simply BSD was already there (BSD vs commercial Unix [and companies]) and it won. Linux on the other hand allowed them to enter its field and now they are slowly paying price for that. http://news.softpedia.com/news/Linus-Torvalds-Block-All-Code-from-Systemd-Developer-for-the-Linux-Kernel-435714.shtml http://www.muktware.com/2013/02/linus-torvalds-to-secure-boot-supporters-this-is-not-a-dick-sucking-contest/4035 and he was laughing at Theo about his opinions and wording... > > the whole project has been hijacked by corporations. > i have no choice and use linux at work and so i have > an interest in it staying a sane unix clone. it is > starting to look like anything but. knock knock, > anybody at red hat? it would be interesting to see > google hiring torvalds and some top talent and hijack > the development, at least for android's sake. on the > other hand, judging by chrome, maybe let's not go > that way.. > > as it is now, openbsd is not only a breath of fresh > air, it is the promised land, canaan, and paradise > in one. linux is currently paying the price of being > the most popular act in town -- and selling out in > the process. > > please, please openbsd,, dont become too popular!! > :) > > -f > -- > when i want your opinion i'll give it to you!
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
hmm, on Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:07:49AM +0200, Ingo Schwarze said that > Then again, while popularity certainly increases the risk of losing > one's mind, which means caution is permanently needed, there is > precendent indicating that it might be possible to stay true to > one's goals even when successful, even though most who are ultimately > fail. For example, the OpenSSH team hasn't sold out yet. good point. however sending backdoory patches to the openssh project would not fly as it is being run by a competent, focused and uncompromising team. compare that to the openssl project... and while it would be nice to get access to the sysadmins (openssh), compromising the secure channels of the masses is much more valuable (openssl) -f -- programmers don't repeat themselves, they loop.
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
Hi Frantisek, frantisek holop wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:20:28PM +0200: > please, please openbsd, dont become too popular! If you believe the typical corporate Product Management droids, the current tedu frenzy is more likely to bring us closer to perfection than closer to popularity. Being suspicious of resource-induced priority inversion[1] doesn't help either to become rich fast. Then again, while popularity certainly increases the risk of losing one's mind, which means caution is permanently needed, there is precendent indicating that it might be possible to stay true to one's goals even when successful, even though most who are ultimately fail. For example, the OpenSSH team hasn't sold out yet. So the point is: If you accomplish the feat of remaining indifferent whether or not you are popular, it is nearly irrelevant whether or not you are. Nothing wrong with becoming a bit more popular, but that is not a goal, not at all! Yours, Ingo [1] http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=139819485423701
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
hmm, on Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:36:25AM -0700, Tom Bodr said that > https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa/ (sorry for the OT, but:) it is interesting to see other bsd users looking at linux "from the outside" coming to similiar realizations, namely: the linux kernel is headed into dark dark lands. and it will be a veritable black day in calendar(1) when systemd becomes the default on debian, one of the few somewhat usable distributions. the whole project has been hijacked by corporations. i have no choice and use linux at work and so i have an interest in it staying a sane unix clone. it is starting to look like anything but. knock knock, anybody at red hat? it would be interesting to see google hiring torvalds and some top talent and hijack the development, at least for android's sake. on the other hand, judging by chrome, maybe let's not go that way.. as it is now, openbsd is not only a breath of fresh air, it is the promised land, canaan, and paradise in one. linux is currently paying the price of being the most popular act in town -- and selling out in the process. please, please openbsd,, dont become too popular!! :) -f -- when i want your opinion i'll give it to you!
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
Lol so much corporate marketing bs on one page? Is it Christmas already? :) Why there are only US companies mentioned? Guess why OpenBSD is based elsewhere and check history related to that. But I must say that it's nice confirmation of issues mentioned here (which even Linus can do shit about those now) https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/biography-of-a-cypherpunk-and-how-cryptography-affects-your-life/ , https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa/ . Simply very interesting to see long time Linux users and devs saying stuff about relations of corporations and Linux and issues out of that which Theo was describing like 20 years ago (for example interview in Forbes) From: Alejandro Sent: 24. 4. 2014 15:53 To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure" So, i was just reading this article[1] on wired where they mention the Linux Foundation raising money for projects like OpenSSL after Heartbleed hit and for other crucial software on the Internet... What are the chances of things like OpenSSH getting founding from them for example? (I mention OpenSSH because i cannot think any other single most crucial piece of code on the internet). Does this give any kind of hope for future founding on OpenBSD and the Foundation? Also, funny how they mention the lack of founding on OpenBSD on the same article as OpenSSL, meanwhile LibreSSL is born, the irony... Cheers, Alejandro. [1] = http://www.wired.com/2014/04/cii/
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
2014-04-24 15:51 GMT+02:00 Alejandro : > hit and for other crucial software on the Internet... What are the chances > of things like OpenSSH getting founding from them for example? (I mention http://www.openssh.com/";> Please take note of our Who uses it page, which list just some of the vendors who incorporate OpenSSH into their own products -- as a critically important security / access feature -- instead of writing their own SSH implementation or purchasing one from another vendor. This list specifically includes companies like NetApp, NETFLIX, EMC, Juniper, Cisco, Apple, Red Hat, and Novell; but probably includes almost all router, switch or unix-like operating system vendors. In the 10 years since the inception of the OpenSSH project, these companies have contributed not even a dime of thanks in support of the OpenSSH project (despite numerous requests).
Re: Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:51:53AM -0300, Alejandro wrote: > So, i was just reading this article[1] on wired where they mention the > Linux Foundation raising money for projects like OpenSSL after Heartbleed > hit and for other crucial software on the Internet... What are the chances > of things like OpenSSH getting founding from them for example? (I mention > OpenSSH because i cannot think any other single most crucial piece of code > on the internet). Does this give any kind of hope for future founding on > OpenBSD and the Foundation? Zero? This is just hypocrit marketing. Let them continue with selling Potemking villages to stupid governments. j.
Linux Foundation raising money for "Core Infrastructure"
So, i was just reading this article[1] on wired where they mention the Linux Foundation raising money for projects like OpenSSL after Heartbleed hit and for other crucial software on the Internet... What are the chances of things like OpenSSH getting founding from them for example? (I mention OpenSSH because i cannot think any other single most crucial piece of code on the internet). Does this give any kind of hope for future founding on OpenBSD and the Foundation? Also, funny how they mention the lack of founding on OpenBSD on the same article as OpenSSL, meanwhile LibreSSL is born, the irony... Cheers, Alejandro. [1] = http://www.wired.com/2014/04/cii/
Your Money is Paid
Hello, Transfer is made to your bank account. To activate it - click on the link below or copy and paste the link on your browser, enter your email address and your email password then click login. Here is the Link: clax.medorisx.com/info.html Thank You Mr Chris
Lunatics deal in certificates not reality whilst burning wheel barrows of money.
A while back someone mentioned they needed certificates like Cisco etc. had to get OpenBSD used by their organisation. Well they're certainly certified now, lunatics that is. I didn't have a great opinion of Cisco but this went from funny to more than a joke. A big thankyou to OpenBSDs no shit attitude and for making the world a better place on so many levels. Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:26:13 -0500 Subject: [osvdb] Cisco Security Advisory: Cisco RVS4000 and WRVS4400N Web Management Interface Vulnerabilities Details === The Cisco RVS4000 and WRVS4400N Gigabit Security Routers deliver high-speed network access and IPsec VPN capabilities for small businesses. They also provides firewall and intrusion prevention capabilities. The Cisco RVS4000 and WRVS4400N Gigabit Security Routers contain three web management interface vulnerabilities: * Retrieval of the configuration file If an administrator of the device has previously created a backup of the configuration, using Administration --> Backup & Restore --> Backup, it is possible for a remote unauthenticated user to access the backup configuration file. This file contains all configuration parameters of the device, including the HTTP authentication password and VPN pre-shared-keys (PSKs). * Root operating system arbitrary command injection by an authenticated attacker A user who is authenticated to the device can inject arbitrary commands into the underlying operating system with root privileges, via the ping test and traceroute test parameters. * Retrieval of admin SSL certificate private key The admin SSL certificate private and public keys can be retrieved (used for Quick VPN) by a remote unauthenticated user. ++ |Affected|Availability of First Fixed Release| |Product | | || 2011. | || 2011. | || 2011. | ++
Re: Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
On 15/03/2010, at 3:09 AM, Sevan / Venture37 wrote: On 13 Mar 2010, at 10:00 PM, Graeme Lee wrote: FreeBSD and Linux The routing is done on FreeBSD. UI on Linux It's hardly rocket science either. It could easily be done on OpenBSD, but we would need to add a "strip private" or similar to make it implementable. Thanks for letting us know! Now, what's the phone number for the Iranian consulate in London? ;) 16 Prince's Gate London SW7 1PT, United Kingdom 020 7225 3000
Re: Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
On 13 Mar 2010, at 10:00 PM, Graeme Lee wrote: FreeBSD and Linux The routing is done on FreeBSD. UI on Linux It's hardly rocket science either. It could easily be done on OpenBSD, but we would need to add a "strip private" or similar to make it implementable. Thanks for letting us know! Now, what's the phone number for the Iranian consulate in London? ;)
Re: Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
FreeBSD and Linux The routing is done on FreeBSD. UI on Linux It's hardly rocket science either. It could easily be done on OpenBSD, but we would need to add a "strip private" or similar to make it implementable. On 14/03/2010 2:24 AM, Sevan / Venture37 wrote: Hi guys, I was reading the arstechnica article on the internet filtering that's now in place in New Zealand & they mentioned that the appliance they're using called a "Whitebox" which uses a "BSD-Unix" Anyone know more about the OS used in this system?? Sevan / Venture37 http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/03/new-zealand-relies-on-bgp-router-protocol-to-filter-the-net.ars http://www.watchdoginternational.net/images/stories/ncwb2.pdf
Re: Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
I'm not trying to over throw bypass governments or make money being a thug I was trying to imply a possibly that the white box is nothing more then a fancy white box running OpenBSD? Sevan / Venture37
Re: Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
Sevan / Venture37 writes: > they're using called a "Whitebox" which uses a "BSD-Unix" Their marketers apparently do not know (or do not care) that term is 15+ years out of date and used to be the focusing point of a legal dust-up back in the days. Not a good sign in itself, their website (which runs on Microsoft if Netcraft is to be believed) doesn't offer too much detail either. It does sound rather like the 'we must appear to be doing something fer chrissake' excercise the powers that be in .no were trying to impose on ISPs here recently (DNS based and all). > Anyone know more about the OS used in this system?? The marketing material at on their web site gives you enough pointers that you could knit together a rough equivalent on anything unixlike, including OpenBSD. Fairly easy money once you figure out what color schemes the johns^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers want in their web interfaces, I suppose. - P -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/ "Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic" delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
Hi, technical issues aside, On Sat, 13.03.2010 at 15:24:30 +, Sevan / Venture37 wrote: > I was reading the arstechnica article on the internet filtering > that's now in place in New Zealand & they mentioned that the > appliance they're using called a "Whitebox" which uses a "BSD-Unix" > Anyone know more about the OS used in this system?? what do you want to know? How to make money bypassing government villains? Or how to make money being a thug? Kind regards, --Toni++
Easy money with OpenBSD & OpenBGPd?
Hi guys, I was reading the arstechnica article on the internet filtering that's now in place in New Zealand & they mentioned that the appliance they're using called a "Whitebox" which uses a "BSD-Unix" Anyone know more about the OS used in this system?? Sevan / Venture37 http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/03/new-zealand-relies-on-bgp-router-protocol-to-filter-the-net.ars http://www.watchdoginternational.net/images/stories/ncwb2.pdf
money
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You are invited to "information to send the money". By your host Philip Weah: Date: Thursday June 4, 2009 Time: 8:00 pm - 9:00 pm (GMT +00:00) Location: Dearest friend, I have received the cheque from bank three days ago and kept the cheque with Mr Esse John as we discussed. Please mail him immediately to send the cheque to you Iam in Coloumbia now. I kept USD3.5m cashier cheque and will send you the rest of money after my business trip here. I send you so many mails but all bounced back.So mail Mr Esse John below email for him to send the cheque to you: (essej...@sify.com) Thanks and do let me know when you receive it. Philip Weah Send Mr Eze J Will you attend? RSVP to this invitation at: http://calendar.yahoo.com/philipweah2?v=126&a1=0&iid=2hAkdrtd%4023Y%40FYj-xdWdH%40%402uEuAMrD&igid=2hAkdrtd%4023Y%40BYjPxdWeDp%402uUuBMrD Copyright ) 2009 All Rights Reserved www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 09:16:47PM +0200, Wim Vandeputte wrote: > yes, it was just a pass through transaction, just as the sponsor money > that was destined for Opencon So all the other donations were not pass-through transactions too? Why? So then how can it be proven that kd85.com and yourself personally got nothing from this when they should have been passed straight through to the project? -0- -- Pascal is not a high-level language. -- Steven Feiner
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
Hi Bob, It took me some time to parse the emails you quoted in your original message and make sense of them chronologically, as there was a bit of tangled/repetitive quoting and the senders were in different time zones. In the course of reading everything, I've actually edited the lot, creating delicious copypasta that puts these spaghetti in correct order. I could dish up the thusly created remix to this list. Would you and/or others like that? regards, --ropers
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
> I would assume any other donation money was just a passthough. but as > "I don't understand banking in europe", in Europe there are other > reasons you would want to hang on to money that was donated to the > project that make perfect sense and are not understandable to those of > us who are used to North America. Was all donation money passed > through to fund OpenBSD events in europe? I too would love to know what those European reasons are for holding on to money that one individual is giving to a second individual to give to a third individual. For years.
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
* Wim Vandeputte [2009-04-07 13:27]:
The point is that is not an OpenBSD donation. It is something you did
personally. You need to take it off that page because the funeral
money was not a donation to OpenBSD.
I would assume any other donation money was just a passthough. but as
"I don't understand banking in europe", in Europe there are other
reasons you would want to hang on to money that was donated to the
project that make perfect sense and are not understandable to those of
us who are used to North America. Was all donation money passed
through to fund OpenBSD events in europe?
-Bob
> yes, it was just a pass through transaction, just as the sponsor money
> that was destined for Opencon
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Bob Beck wrote:
> > * Wim Vandeputte [2009-04-07 12:26]:
> >> Two developers who wanted to contribute to the funeral did not have a
> >> credit card and asked me if they could wire the money to the IBAN
> >> account I then forwarded the money with my credit card towards the
> >> paypal account
> >
> >Which is fine, but then these are not donations to OpenBSD, and
> > should therefore not be listed on your accounting page as such.
> > correct? This was simply a gift sent through you personally.
>
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
if ((not 0 && not 1) != (! 0 && ! 1)) {
print "Larry and Tom must smoke some really primo stuff...\n";
}
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
yes, it was just a pass through transaction, just as the sponsor money that was destined for Opencon On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Bob Beck wrote: > * Wim Vandeputte [2009-04-07 12:26]: >> Two developers who wanted to contribute to the funeral did not have a >> credit card and asked me if they could wire the money to the IBAN >> account I then forwarded the money with my credit card towards the >> paypal account > >Which is fine, but then these are not donations to OpenBSD, and > should therefore not be listed on your accounting page as such. > correct? This was simply a gift sent through you personally.
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
* Wim Vandeputte [2009-04-07 12:26]: > Two developers who wanted to contribute to the funeral did not have a > credit card and asked me if they could wire the money to the IBAN > account I then forwarded the money with my credit card towards the > paypal account Which is fine, but then these are not donations to OpenBSD, and should therefore not be listed on your accounting page as such. correct? This was simply a gift sent through you personally.
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
Two developers who wanted to contribute to the funeral did not have a credit card and asked me if they could wire the money to the IBAN account I then forwarded the money with my credit card towards the paypal account On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Bob Beck wrote: >Speaking of donation money, > >reading http://accounting.kd85.com/ > >We see this mentioned: > >"some went to funeral costs (Itojun)." > >Why would money that was directed to go to the OpenBSD project be > used for this? especially when at the time it was made pretty clear that > it should not be. > > We (the developers) at the time certainly SENT money for a friend. > > But at the time I objected to using OpenBSD money or a donation > account for this. We wanted it completely clear that the money we were > sending was coming from us personally, in memory of a super great guy > and as a token of respect to his family. At the time, both Myself and > Theo objected to this, stating it was not fair to use money donated to > fund the project for this. The money had to come from us personally. > >So. How much donation money was sent for Itojuns funeral, and in this > case was it "donation" money for openbsd, or was this money from the > developers: > >The email exchange about this at the time is below, when I expressed > my concern about mixing up donations to OpenBSD with money being sent > from a developer to a friend. Wim's answer to this was terse and rude > and basically that I "did not understand accounting in europe", and to > "shut the fuck up because I did not understand banking". Then it goes > on to mention that "personal money" was being put up to "front" this? > >So, what was it? Money from developers sent for a friend that had > nothing to do with OpenBSD? Money from OpenBSD donations? or "personal > money from wim?" - since OpenBSD donations weren't supposed to go to this why > is this now mentioned here? > >Stranger and stranger. > >-Bob > > -8<- > Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:10:37 -0700 > From: Bob Beck > To: Marco Peereboom , hack...@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: Itojun, and sending our regards. > Message-ID: <20071105231037.gk...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca> > Mail-Followup-To: Marco Peereboom , hack...@openbsd.org > References: <20071104174010.gd26...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca> <20071105141949.gd22...@peereboom.us> <20071105164717.ga30...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > In-Reply-To: <20071105164717.ga30...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca> > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 > Content-Length: 2013 > >Ok, here's the deal. > >Ryan is dealing with the show on the ground in japan. > >We will be sending flowers and condolence money to the family. > >based upon the number of people expresssing interest, I would > suggest $20 as a minimum. if you can afford more and would like to, that > is fine too. > >Send your bit by paypal to mcbr...@countersiege.com > >If you don't have paypal, find someone who does and coordinate > with them. this will be easiest on short notice. > >I've already sent mine. > > > * Bob Beck [2007-11-05 09:51]: >> >> Please be patient. I am attempting to finalize details. >> I will let you all know. >> >> -Bob >> >> >> * Marco Peereboom [2007-11-05 07:38]: >> > How and where do we send money to? >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 10:40:10AM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: >> > > >> > > As some of you know, Theo is going to Itojun's funeral >> > > on Nov 7. >> > > >> > > The tradition in Japan is that friends may send flowers with a >> > > message, and the tradition is also to collect an offering for the >> > > family. (funerals in japan are the most expensive on the planet) Ryan >> > > Mcbride has done the legwork for us in getting together 6 flower >> > > arrangements from OpenBSD. >> > > >> > > I imagine some of you who knew and worked with itojun >> > > may be interested in contributing - we might be asking for >> > > in the neighborhood of 20 dollars or whatever. I will post again >> > > soon with more details as I find them, this is mainly just a heads >> > > up, and a find out how many of you may be interested. Full details
Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
Speaking of donation money,
reading http://accounting.kd85.com/
We see this mentioned:
"some went to funeral costs (Itojun)."
Why would money that was directed to go to the OpenBSD project be
used for this? especially when at the time it was made pretty clear that
it should not be.
We (the developers) at the time certainly SENT money for a friend.
But at the time I objected to using OpenBSD money or a donation
account for this. We wanted it completely clear that the money we were
sending was coming from us personally, in memory of a super great guy
and as a token of respect to his family. At the time, both Myself and
Theo objected to this, stating it was not fair to use money donated to
fund the project for this. The money had to come from us personally.
So. How much donation money was sent for Itojuns funeral, and in this
case was it "donation" money for openbsd, or was this money from the
developers:
The email exchange about this at the time is below, when I expressed
my concern about mixing up donations to OpenBSD with money being sent
from a developer to a friend. Wim's answer to this was terse and rude
and basically that I "did not understand accounting in europe", and to
"shut the fuck up because I did not understand banking". Then it goes
on to mention that "personal money" was being put up to "front" this?
So, what was it? Money from developers sent for a friend that had
nothing to do with OpenBSD? Money from OpenBSD donations? or "personal
money from wim?" - since OpenBSD donations weren't supposed to go to this why
is this now mentioned here?
Stranger and stranger.
-Bob
-8<-
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:10:37 -0700
From: Bob Beck
To: Marco Peereboom , hack...@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: Itojun, and sending our regards.
Message-ID: <20071105231037.gk...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
Mail-Followup-To: Marco Peereboom , hack...@openbsd.org
References: <20071104174010.gd26...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
<20071105141949.gd22...@peereboom.us>
<20071105164717.ga30...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20071105164717.ga30...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14
Content-Length: 2013
Ok, here's the deal.
Ryan is dealing with the show on the ground in japan.
We will be sending flowers and condolence money to the family.
based upon the number of people expresssing interest, I would
suggest $20 as a minimum. if you can afford more and would like to, that
is fine too.
Send your bit by paypal to mcbr...@countersiege.com
If you don't have paypal, find someone who does and coordinate
with them. this will be easiest on short notice.
I've already sent mine.
* Bob Beck [2007-11-05 09:51]:
>
> Please be patient. I am attempting to finalize details.
> I will let you all know.
>
> -Bob
>
>
> * Marco Peereboom [2007-11-05 07:38]:
> > How and where do we send money to?
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 10:40:10AM -0700, Bob Beck wrote:
> > >
> > > As some of you know, Theo is going to Itojun's funeral
> > > on Nov 7.
> > >
> > > The tradition in Japan is that friends may send flowers with a
> > > message, and the tradition is also to collect an offering for the
> > > family. (funerals in japan are the most expensive on the planet) Ryan
> > > Mcbride has done the legwork for us in getting together 6 flower
> > > arrangements from OpenBSD.
> > >
> > > I imagine some of you who knew and worked with itojun
> > > may be interested in contributing - we might be asking for
> > > in the neighborhood of 20 dollars or whatever. I will post again
> > > soon with more details as I find them, this is mainly just a heads
> > > up, and a find out how many of you may be interested. Full details
> > > will likely wait until theo is on the ground in japan and has
> > > talked to a few people about what is proper.
> > >
> > > -Bob
> >
>
> --
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> if ((not 0 && not 1) != (! 0 && ! 1)) {
>print "Larry and Tom must smoke some really primo stuff...\n";
> }
>
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
if ((not 0 && not 1) != (! 0 && ! 1)) {
print "Larry and Tom must smoke some really primo stuff...\n";
}
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Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money went to..
Speaking of donation money,
reading http://accounting.kd85.com/
We see this mentioned:
"some went to funeral costs (Itojun)."
Why would money that was directed to go to the OpenBSD project be
used for this? especially when at the time it was made pretty clear that
it should not be.
We (the developers) at the time certainly SENT money for a friend.
But at the time I objected to using OpenBSD money or a donation
account for this. We wanted it completely clear that the money we were
sending was coming from us personally, in memory of a super great guy
and as a token of respect to his family. At the time, both Myself and
Theo objected to this, stating it was not fair to use money donated to
fund the project for this. The money had to come from us personally.
So. How much donation money was sent for Itojuns funeral, and in this
case was it "donation" money for openbsd, or was this money from the
developers:
The email exchange about this at the time is below, when I expressed
my concern about mixing up donations to OpenBSD with money being sent
from a developer to a friend. Wim's answer to this was terse and rude
and basically that I "did not understand accounting in europe", and to
"shut the fuck up because I did not understand banking". Then it goes
on to mention that "personal money" was being put up to "front" this?
So, what was it? Money from developers sent for a friend that had
nothing to do with OpenBSD? Money from OpenBSD donations? or "personal
money from wim?" - since OpenBSD donations weren't supposed to go to this why
is this now mentioned here?
Stranger and stranger.
-Bob
-8<-
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:10:37 -0700
From: Bob Beck
To: Marco Peereboom , hack...@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: Itojun, and sending our regards.
Message-ID: <20071105231037.gk...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
Mail-Followup-To: Marco Peereboom , hack...@openbsd.org
References: <20071104174010.gd26...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
<20071105141949.gd22...@peereboom.us>
<20071105164717.ga30...@bofh.cns.ualberta.ca>
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Ok, here's the deal.
Ryan is dealing with the show on the ground in japan.
We will be sending flowers and condolence money to the family.
based upon the number of people expresssing interest, I would
suggest $20 as a minimum. if you can afford more and would like to, that
is fine too.
Send your bit by paypal to mcbr...@countersiege.com
If you don't have paypal, find someone who does and coordinate
with them. this will be easiest on short notice.
I've already sent mine.
* Bob Beck [2007-11-05 09:51]:
>
> Please be patient. I am attempting to finalize details.
> I will let you all know.
>
> -Bob
>
>
> * Marco Peereboom [2007-11-05 07:38]:
> > How and where do we send money to?
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 10:40:10AM -0700, Bob Beck wrote:
> > >
> > > As some of you know, Theo is going to Itojun's funeral
> > > on Nov 7.
> > >
> > > The tradition in Japan is that friends may send flowers with a
> > > message, and the tradition is also to collect an offering for the
> > > family. (funerals in japan are the most expensive on the planet) Ryan
> > > Mcbride has done the legwork for us in getting together 6 flower
> > > arrangements from OpenBSD.
> > >
> > > I imagine some of you who knew and worked with itojun
> > > may be interested in contributing - we might be asking for
> > > in the neighborhood of 20 dollars or whatever. I will post again
> > > soon with more details as I find them, this is mainly just a heads
> > > up, and a find out how many of you may be interested. Full details
> > > will likely wait until theo is on the ground in japan and has
> > > talked to a few people about what is proper.
> > >
> > > -Bob
> >
>
> --
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> if ((not 0 && not 1) != (! 0 && ! 1)) {
>print "Larry and Tom must smoke some really primo stuff...\n";
> }
>
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
if ((not 0 && not 1) != (! 0 && ! 1)) {
print "Larry and Tom must smoke some really primo stuff...\n";
}
Return-Path:
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X-Spam-Level:
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Re: Where did the donation money go, Wim?
> (Linux Expo Live, held in london last october) Fun times... though that was a dead, unattended event. At other events there were eager punters who wanted OpenSSH/OpenBSD t-shirts, posters, cds, lanyards, soft toys, etc. Lots of 'em. There was no indication the proceeds were going anywhere other than to OpenBSD. Not for the buyers or the volunteer sellers. Sadly said.
Re: Where did the donation money go, Wim?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 03:13:03PM +, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me > > stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD > > project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this > > money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. > > At all the European conference tables where I've been with Wim over > the years, all the money from T-shirt, poster, CD sales *and* cash > donations went into the same glass jar, and at the end of the day > Wim collected the money. > > I don't know what happened afterwards and if Wim's accounting ever > led him to separate out the donations money. > I can't add much more. However, when I helped out at a conference (Linux Expo Live, held in london last october), similar things happened: There wasn't much in the way of donations (a few quid here and there for a lanyard), OpenBSD wasn't a major feature there. On the other hand, again the money went all went into the same jar with tshirt, cd etc sales. I've no idea what happened to it. -0- -- Larkinson's Law: All laws are basically false.
Re: Where did the donation money go, Wim?
Theo de Raadt wrote: > I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me > stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD > project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this > money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. At all the European conference tables where I've been with Wim over the years, all the money from T-shirt, poster, CD sales *and* cash donations went into the same glass jar, and at the end of the day Wim collected the money. I don't know what happened afterwards and if Wim's accounting ever led him to separate out the donations money. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Re: Where did the donation money go, Wim?
I need to correct a few details. > I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me > stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD > project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this > money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. These reports are not > coming from people who gave these donatiosn, but from people who > collected them at tables and gave them to Wim to give to the project. > > The amounts are not large, but this should not be happening. > > These transactions happened after the last time that Wim transferred > money to the project in April 8, 2008. These transactions could not > have come to the project in any other way that we are aware of, since > the Computer Shop and Wim stopped doing transfers of donation money > directly quite a while back since there were problems with that > system. There is no other way this money made it to the project that > we can think of. > > So Wim, where is the donation money from those events? > > therefore, I would like a record of all donation money ever accepted > into the Belgian Bank account on behalf of the OpenBSD project. You > set up a special Belgian bank account just for this purpose, so I am > certain you can provide me with the official bank statements so that I > can check them over. > > I would also like a report about the money ever collected at > conference events. If you cannot come up with exact figures, I will > accept estimates. > > Thank you very much for getting that report to me soon. > > I know what you transferred to the project on Dec 15, 2006 and on > April 8, 2008 (when you apparently closed that account), but I do not > believe there is any possible way that the sum of donations for the > entire period could only be so little. The amount seems extremely > low, basically it boggles the mind to think that the Belgian account > pulled in donations at less than 10% the rate that the replacement > German bank account pulls it in. I now realize that I cannot exactly tell the source accounts apart from each other on the statements I have. But this is hardly relevant, since I have a mail saying that the donation account was set up seperately to not confuse it with kd85's business operation (ie. good fiscal practice). So the donation account records must be seperatable, and I want to see them. > All this donation money received by you, of course, was not spent by > you on anything for the OpenBSD project. How so? Ok, everyone stay > with me for a second here and let me explain. > > When kd85 (Wim's company) was found to be very late in payments to the > Computer Shop, Wim and Austin and I came to an agreement where all the > previous OpenBSD project bills paid by Wim in Europe were requested by > Austin, and then those bills were considered as credit against kd85's > debt. All the spending kd85 / Wim did in the past which was approved > by me was credited; and thus these things were paid for by the > Computer Shop. Furthermore, the Computer Shop even accepted some > bills that had not been approved; Austin convinced me to be generous > in this regard. (The Computer Shop went further, and purchased back > almost all of Wim's old CDs, too, as a credit against his debt). Yet > even after that operation done last year, kd85's debt still remains > substantial. Understand what this means -- it means all the things > ever bought for the OpenBSD project in Europe were paid for by the > Computer Shop. > > So I ask -- did you buy things for the project out of the Belgian > donation account? Then, when the Computer Shop came asking for > receipts, did you submit receipts which were in fact paid for by the > donation account, but which the Computer Shop was now credited against > your company's debt? You will surely say no, but I remain sceptical. > > I would also like an explanation of why two transactions of 5,000 EUR > were made from the Belgian donation account with an annotation saying > that they were paying for "OpenBSD 4.1". The sale of OpenBSD CDs was these say OPENBSD 4.0 RELEASE PART I dated Feb 28, 2007 OPENBSD 4.0 RELEASEdated Mar 19, 2007 Oops, 4.0 not 4.1; a very late payment. Yet it still is not clear why the payment was sent to the German donation receiving account. Austin and I had to resolve this issue carefully, since I cannot receive payment for CDs, that is business. the payment was supposed to be made to the Computer Shop, since it is _CD sales business_ and does not involve me financially. > a kd85 business, and had nothing to do with donations. So why would > you have transferred money from the donation account to pay for a debt > owed by your business? I now
Where did the donation money go, Wim?
I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. These reports are not coming from people who gave these donatiosn, but from people who collected them at tables and gave them to Wim to give to the project. The amounts are not large, but this should not be happening. These transactions happened after the last time that Wim transferred money to the project in April 8, 2008. These transactions could not have come to the project in any other way that we are aware of, since the Computer Shop and Wim stopped doing transfers of donation money directly quite a while back since there were problems with that system. There is no other way this money made it to the project that we can think of. So Wim, where is the donation money from those events? therefore, I would like a record of all donation money ever accepted into the Belgian Bank account on behalf of the OpenBSD project. You set up a special Belgian bank account just for this purpose, so I am certain you can provide me with the official bank statements so that I can check them over. I would also like a report about the money ever collected at conference events. If you cannot come up with exact figures, I will accept estimates. Thank you very much for getting that report to me soon. I know what you transferred to the project on Dec 15, 2006 and on April 8, 2008 (when you apparently closed that account), but I do not believe there is any possible way that the sum of donations for the entire period could only be so little. The amount seems extremely low, basically it boggles the mind to think that the Belgian account pulled in donations at less than 10% the rate that the replacement German bank account pulls it in. All this donation money received by you, of course, was not spent by you on anything for the OpenBSD project. How so? Ok, everyone stay with me for a second here and let me explain. When kd85 (Wim's company) was found to be very late in payments to the Computer Shop, Wim and Austin and I came to an agreement where all the previous OpenBSD project bills paid by Wim in Europe were requested by Austin, and then those bills were considered as credit against kd85's debt. All the spending kd85 / Wim did in the past which was approved by me was credited; and thus these things were paid for by the Computer Shop. Furthermore, the Computer Shop even accepted some bills that had not been approved; Austin convinced me to be generous in this regard. (The Computer Shop went further, and purchased back almost all of Wim's old CDs, too, as a credit against his debt). Yet even after that operation done last year, kd85's debt still remains substantial. Understand what this means -- it means all the things ever bought for the OpenBSD project in Europe were paid for by the Computer Shop. So I ask -- did you buy things for the project out of the Belgian donation account? Then, when the Computer Shop came asking for receipts, did you submit receipts which were in fact paid for by the donation account, but which the Computer Shop was now credited against your company's debt? You will surely say no, but I remain sceptical. I would also like an explanation of why two transactions of 5,000 EUR were made from the Belgian donation account with an annotation saying that they were paying for "OpenBSD 4.1". The sale of OpenBSD CDs was a kd85 business, and had nothing to do with donations. So why would you have transferred money from the donation account to pay for a debt owed by your business? ps. If other people know of donations made to Wim since April of last year, please let me kno
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Re: openbsd and the money [non-profit]
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 12:00:56PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: > There are very good reasons for not becoming a non-profit. Accounting > wise it would NOT help the project. Non-profits with such a small > amount of money are severely limited in what they can do. This > question has been answered at least 20 times before. Now 21 times... No. 22: I thought it was worth pointing out that the Fedora project has also opted against creating a 'foundation' - some of the reasons for which also would apply to OpenBSD. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2006-April/msg00016.html [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: OpenBSD and the money
On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 10:16 +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > Try > to name at least one incentive for Alberta to fund a project where the > financial benefits will largely be reaped outside of Alberta. For a lot of people, OpenBSD has put Alberta on the map... Cheers Steffen.
OpenBSD and the money
Hi, PLease do not forget the best way to help is to order ... Thank you for your OpenBSD Order! In case of problems or questions about this order, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Order number 2006/3/31-4:14:6-*: Your order currently is: -> 1 [B02] Absolute OpenBSD Book @ EUR 40.00 -> 1 [CD39] OpenBSD 3.9 CD @ EUR 45.00 -> Total: EUR 85.00 + Shipping. ~~ http://www.chatou-informatic.com Maintenance, infogerance, interventions sur site, telemaintenance
Re: OpenBSD and the money
Your order currently is: -> 1 [T23] Wireframe Blowfish Shirt (M) @ EUR 20.00 -> EUR 10.00 [DON] DONATION to the OpenBSD Project -> Total: EUR 30.00 + Shipping. This is what I can afford as a student. It's for the first time I donate/buy anything from openbsd.org. I hope it helps a very little bit at least... /bkw On 23/03/06, Peter Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to take in money by nickels > and dimes rather than obtaining research grants from the Alberta > government? > > Alberta is rolling in cash, and has specifically stated it wants to > invest in technological research so that it will be in a good position > when oil money begins to dwindle. OpenBSD could surely qualify as a > research organization without too much trouble, at which point you'd be > eligible for substantial provincial funding. > > I recognize that government grants come with red-tape, and people are > often disdainful of taking "hand-outs". In this case, however, I'd > think the pros outweigh the cons. Don't you have a wish-list of things > you'd implement or improve if you got sufficient funding? > > Something to think about...
Re: openbsd and the money
Roger Neth Jr wrote: On 3/28/06, Daniel Walrond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:09:08PM +0100, frantisek holop wrote: [...] unfortunately there is no real community around openbsd. at least i dont see one -- one where there are people without cvs commit. if you don't have cvs commit, you are a nobody that's what misc@ will teach any newcomer using iron and fire. i try to be part of a community but the devs say you are nobody and should be glad that you can use this stuff. [...] Yes as users we are lucky to be able to use such quality code which OpenBSD produces. I think it's a pritty hard job to be a developer, paid consultant and offer free user support to the user base. So don't be so quick to judge, without trying it yourself ;) [...] Dan, good insight and thanks for the adivce. Years ago I have had the opportunity to meet e.g. Wim. Remembering that, I would like to say that I can agree with Dan and Roger. -- Michael Schmidt MIRRORS: DJGPP ftp://ftp.fh-koblenz.de/pub/DJGPP/ Ghostscript ftp://ftp.fh-koblenz.de/pub/Ghostscript/
Re: openbsd and the money
On 3/28/06, Daniel Walrond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:09:08PM +0100, frantisek holop wrote: > > > > twice a year (or maybe more) when it comes to money issues, Theo and > > the devs ask for donations, cd purchases. at the same time, people > > are every once in a while reminded how "lucky" they are to use what > > the devs create solely "for themselves". this brainwashing is so > > effective even some other advocators are using it now, defending > > the poor helpless devs. > > > > unfortunately there is no real community around openbsd. at least > > i dont see one -- one where there are people without cvs commit. > > if you don't have cvs commit, you are a nobody that's what misc@ > > will teach any newcomer using iron and fire. i try to be part > > of a community but the devs say you are nobody and should be glad > > that you can use this stuff. > > Having met some of the OpenBSD developers last week, they're really > friendly welcoming people. misc@ does get a bit warped at times though. > As with any online commumication medium you lose all those non-verbal > signals which makes it hard to take people the right way sometimes. > > Yes as users we are lucky to be able to use such quality code which > OpenBSD produces. I think it's a pritty hard job to be a developer, paid > consultant and offer free user support to the user base. So don't be so > quick to judge, without trying it yourself ;) > > > Dan > > Dan, good insight and thanks for the adivce. -- rogern John 3:16
Re: openbsd and the money
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:09:08PM +0100, frantisek holop wrote: > > twice a year (or maybe more) when it comes to money issues, Theo and > the devs ask for donations, cd purchases. at the same time, people > are every once in a while reminded how "lucky" they are to use what > the devs create solely "for themselves". this brainwashing is so > effective even some other advocators are using it now, defending > the poor helpless devs. > > unfortunately there is no real community around openbsd. at least > i dont see one -- one where there are people without cvs commit. > if you don't have cvs commit, you are a nobody that's what misc@ > will teach any newcomer using iron and fire. i try to be part > of a community but the devs say you are nobody and should be glad > that you can use this stuff. Having met some of the OpenBSD developers last week, they're really friendly welcoming people. misc@ does get a bit warped at times though. As with any online commumication medium you lose all those non-verbal signals which makes it hard to take people the right way sometimes. Yes as users we are lucky to be able to use such quality code which OpenBSD produces. I think it's a pritty hard job to be a developer, paid consultant and offer free user support to the user base. So don't be so quick to judge, without trying it yourself ;) Dan
Re: OpenBSD and the money
>Understand that OpenBSD does not want to become incorporated, >because of the overheads involved, but I don't understand >why Theo de Raadt does not apply for a "trade name" >http://governmentservices.gov.ab.ca/cr/reg_bus_name.cfm >Trade names cost $10cdn. With a trade name you can >open a bank account using that trade name. >That way checks could be made out to OpenBSD. > >It would be lot easier for a business to write a check >to "OpenBSD" then to "Theo de Raadt". People in accounting departments don't care about the names of their suppliers. They care about things like invoices, Dun and Bradstreet numbers and cost centres. They really start to care about tax registration numbers when it makes the addition of the goods and services tax column a pain because you don't have one. This causes grief for people who could and would donate if there was a mechanism that would allow them to avoid the wrath of the people in Payables. It also forces the issue of "incurred administrative overhead". You don't produce this paperwork for a customer without a cost and you don't process the paperwork to pay the supplier without a cost. While a seemingly reasonable idea, it really comes down to a pretty binary choice in most situations: either you do nothing or you go all of the way. While Austin and Wim help Theo with transactions, the situation is really an economic externality... The 2 former individuals incur overhead to help the latter. Trust me - some of us have had the "disruptive discussions" with Theo, ad nauseum. We know how the math works and we understand the implications of certain courses of action. In the end, when the list tosses out random ideas, Theo becomes more petulant and then he wants to go for beer and then I have to deal with him. :-) --J
Re: OpenBSD and the money
Hi, ... > It would be lot easier for a business to write a check > to "OpenBSD" then to "Theo de Raadt". look, it's really not about making it easier for some big "few letter companies". If they would have been interested to donate they would've done it. Making it easier might give some more money from smaller companies at a price though and this is not the point here. We as regular users do our share, I bought my CD as with every release since 2.x , will continue to do so and donate something the next weeks. But even though it helps it's just a drop on the hot stone, we all are keeping it wet by combined effort but we still need the river to drown it. So the question here is not optimizing the current process of donation or merchandise but: --- How do we get some big company to finally donate the > 100.000 which are long overdue ? --- Being friendly doesn't help anymore, one has to find a way to apply pressure. Just the amount of pressure, not to much, not to little, so that someone says: "Okay let's pay so we get some positive feedback instead of this bad publicity, no use starting a lawsuit against that one." Obviously being on Slashdot and heise is not enough. More is needed. That is the only chance, so far nobody found an answer to this, changing the donation system and inventing merchandise is not the answer. I don't have the answer either, but maybe this mail stopped a few people digging in the wrong corner or helped someone dig up the right idea. bye, siggi. PS. Please do not see these as a reason to stop donating or buying CDs, we do not wan't the stone being baked by the sun. Everything counts.
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 09:57:25PM +0200, Tobias Kirschstein wrote: > On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:50:04 +0200 > Henning Brauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > * Tobias Kirschstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-25 20:26]: > > > > Maybe our friends of humppa.com will make a "Humppa OpenBSD > > > > Support Tour 2006" or add them to the 11 OpenBSD songs. > > > > > > ... as you mention it: an (maybe more funny) idea would be some > > > benefit humppa concerts with e.g. Elaekelaeiset where some percent > > > of the entrance fee will be donated to the OpenBSD project. Some > > > CDs and t-shirts can be sold there, too. This way nobody has to pay > > > for any > > > > have you organzied that yet? > > is this a rhetorical question? :) > > no i haven't, but oliver and i will meet Elaekelaeiset next week in > regensburg maybe i could ask them there if they are interested in such > a thing at all. > it doesn't hurt to ask. (This rant applies to every respondent to these threads, not one person in particular.) But it does. Ideas like these have been filling up my mailbox and wasting everybody's time and bandwidth. Under your logic, spam doesn't hurt either. Prank calls don't hurt. What you don't realize is that it wastes everybody's time to read and respond. That doesn't even take into account the implementation cost of each idea. Want to help? Really help? Just do it. Organize a benefit Humppa concert, then let us know. Set up collection funds, sell M&Ms for $1 each, whatever. Whatever idea it is you have, implement it. Then pass the proceeds to the project. This has been done in the past. That's how the G5 was donated to the project. Someone stepped up to organize the collection funds and once the funds were complete the money was sent to the appropriate people. Do you think the same thing would have happened if 50 people just kept saying, "Apple should donate to OpenBSD. Somebody should organize a fund raiser. Let's sign up for an online petition!"? You may think your ideas are easy to set up and that you are being helpful by submitting more and more ideas (despite being repeatedly told otherwise), but all these things take time to do, and every idea without an action just wastes time. -Ray-
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:50:04 +0200 Henning Brauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Tobias Kirschstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-25 20:26]: > > > Maybe our friends of humppa.com will make a "Humppa OpenBSD > > > Support Tour 2006" or add them to the 11 OpenBSD songs. > > > > ... as you mention it: an (maybe more funny) idea would be some > > benefit humppa concerts with e.g. Elaekelaeiset where some percent > > of the entrance fee will be donated to the OpenBSD project. Some > > CDs and t-shirts can be sold there, too. This way nobody has to pay > > for any > > have you organzied that yet? is this a rhetorical question? :) no i haven't, but oliver and i will meet Elaekelaeiset next week in regensburg maybe i could ask them there if they are interested in such a thing at all. it doesn't hurt to ask. -- ciao, lev
Re: It's not about the money
On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 09:13:58PM +0200, chefren wrote: > On 03/26/06 17:35, frantisek holop wrote: > > Talking about arrogance: > > >everybody seems to be happy about Theo's style > > .. > > >the problem mr de Raadt fails to see is, > > What's his name, Theo or "mr de Raadt"? Mr. de Raadt if you're nasty. Definately not Baby...
Re: It's not about the money
On 03/26/06 17:35, frantisek holop wrote: Talking about arrogance: everybody seems to be happy about Theo's style .. the problem mr de Raadt fails to see is, What's his name, Theo or "mr de Raadt"? +++chefren
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 12:56:14PM -0500, Peter Fraser wrote: > In that case, OpenBSD should not ask for donations > from business since it can not give a tax receipt, [...] I'm quite sure that, would the big players see the benefits giving monetary support to OpenBSD, they would contact Theo and find a way to get money floating. But apparently they don't. They are greedy and blind. See Theos mail to some other mailinglist where he mentions some really shameless behaviour of IBM. If *you* want to do something (apart from buying CDs and donating), you could, for example, write to your favorite hardware vendor or your second[1] favorite OS vendor and tell them what you think about them not supporting OpenBSD. Ciao, Kili [1] I assume that everyone's first favorite OS is OpenBSD. -- > Wir haben im Moment einen Sendmail als Server und der Ruf nach Exchange > wird lauter Tuer zu und Stereoanlage auf drehen. -- Norbert Tretkowski in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc
Re: OpenBSD and the money
Understand that OpenBSD does not want to become incorporated, because of the overheads involved, but I don't understand why Theo de Raadt does not apply for a "trade name" http://governmentservices.gov.ab.ca/cr/reg_bus_name.cfm Trade names cost $10cdn. With a trade name you can open a bank account using that trade name. That way checks could be made out to OpenBSD. It would be lot easier for a business to write a check to "OpenBSD" then to "Theo de Raadt".
Re: openbsd and the money
OpenBSD is not going to become a charity because of the overhead to the accounting involved. I understand that. In that case, OpenBSD should not ask for donations from business since it can not give a tax receipt, and further more if OpenBSD could give a charitable tax receipt that tax receipt probably not be good in any other country than Canada. Instead OpenBSD should ask for advertising money. Advertising is a valid expense for every company in every country. For the company's money, OpenBSD could give either banner add or just a page listing advertisers. In some cases countries only allow advertising money to be spend where the paying country does business. In that case, the money could be using to finance a ftp or web server in that country.
Re: It's not about the money
On 03/26/06 07:45, Travers Buda wrote: They have no time for anything but excelence. Clueless, money is needed because it =isn't= excellent at all. Lots of people are too religious here, OpenBSD is neither a religion nor even a cult and shouldn't be one too. The truth is just that OpenBSD developers are seriously doing their best to make software secure and reliable. Nothing more and nothing less. And even some of the developers are somewhat religious, there is no difference between paying for CD or FTP distribution. The project needs a new motor, CD is out, FTP obviously in. KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid! +++chefren
Re: openbsd and the money
-- Original message -- From: Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I think I've got the solution, at last. > > We'll set up a webpage where people can submit all their excellent, wacky, > off-the-wall, and tired ideas and suggestions for raising money ... and each > submission will cost the submitter a pittance, only a couple of hundred > dollars. Part of that will pay for the poor fool that will have to sift > through the endless submissions. > > On the upshot, the OpenBSD and OpenSSH projects will have tapped into a > virtually limitless revenue stream. > > Oh, and by "we", I mean, of course, that somebody else will set it up. > > Wait, damn. Does this mean I owe money to the project now, too? > > - R. Yes, cough it up, $200. (yuk yuk yuk)
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
thus Timo Schoeler spake: thus Stefan Olsson spake: From: "Alexander Bochmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:29 PM My guess is that especially (US-based) public companies don't want to be seen associated with OpenBSD (by donating, for example), as they fear damage to their business reputation from that. > -Why? In what way would it damage their reputation? Does German businesses think the same? any BSD is not as 'l33t' as Linux, even for managers and PR guys. it's a shame, but a fact. ^ is not as 'l33t' for non-BSD users, that is ;) (if they have some brains in contrast to the common guys in those places, they make it dependent from the license. however, this proves that they don't understand it :)
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
thus Stefan Olsson spake: From: "Alexander Bochmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:29 PM My guess is that especially (US-based) public companies don't want to be seen associated with OpenBSD (by donating, for example), as they fear damage to their business reputation from that. > -Why? In what way would it damage their reputation? Does German businesses think the same? any BSD is not as 'l33t' as Linux, even for managers and PR guys. it's a shame, but a fact. (if they have some brains in contrast to the common guys in those places, they make it dependent from the license. however, this proves that they don't understand it :)
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
From: "Alexander Bochmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:29 PM My guess is that especially (US-based) public companies don't want to be seen associated with OpenBSD (by donating, for example), as they fear damage to their business reputation from that. -Why? In what way would it damage their reputation? Does German businesses think the same?
Re: openbsd and the money
I think I've got the solution, at last. We'll set up a webpage where people can submit all their excellent, wacky, off-the-wall, and tired ideas and suggestions for raising money ... and each submission will cost the submitter a pittance, only a couple of hundred dollars. Part of that will pay for the poor fool that will have to sift through the endless submissions. On the upshot, the OpenBSD and OpenSSH projects will have tapped into a virtually limitless revenue stream. Oh, and by "we", I mean, of course, that somebody else will set it up. Wait, damn. Does this mean I owe money to the project now, too? - R. On 3/27/06, Grigoire Welraeds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Wouldn't it be interesting to sell OpenSSH CD. I read the thread and > people are always talking about OpenBSD CD but It might be interesting > to sell OpenSSH CD (including sources, documentation and pre-builded > binaries for most popular platforms). I think the audiance is more > important. > > I have done my homework and have not found any reference to a OpenSSH CD. > I have not organized anything of course, I'm just submitting the idea. > It might be a silly idea...
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
...on Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 08:25:32AM +0100, Jurjen Oskam wrote: > > There is no reason to provide funding from a business standpoint. What > > does > > the business gain? > Does having a "business standpoint" require shutting off all common sense? In todays world: Mostly. Modern businesses have developed an own definition of morality and common sense, which is not necessarily compatible with whatever individuals may think. In that environment, the ethics applied by the OpenBSD community are deeply anachronistic - which makes them great for some people, and a pain for others, regardless of any technical merits. My guess is that especially (US-based) public companies don't want to be seen associated with OpenBSD (by donating, for example), as they fear damage to their business reputation from that. Alex.
openbsd-newbies (was: openbsd and the money -solutions)
On 2006-03-27 14:49:52 +0200, Hannah Schroeter wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:35:05AM -0700, Spruell, Darren-Perot wrote:
> >And a quick Google search reveals that this is a.) a dead horse, b.) already
> >in place:
>
> >http://mailman.theapt.org/listinfo/openbsd-newbies
>
> This should be referred to from http://www.openbsd.org/mail.html
Agreed, but STFA :-{
At least it's in the FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq2.html#MailLists
Best
Martin
--
http://www.tm.oneiros.de
Re: openbsd and the money
Wouldn't it be interesting to sell OpenSSH CD. I read the thread and people are always talking about OpenBSD CD but It might be interesting to sell OpenSSH CD (including sources, documentation and pre-builded binaries for most popular platforms). I think the audiance is more important. I have done my homework and have not found any reference to a OpenSSH CD. I have not organized anything of course, I'm just submitting the idea. It might be a silly idea... Grigoire. On 3/27/06, Henning Brauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Tobias Kirschstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-25 20:26]: > > > Maybe our friends of humppa.com will make a "Humppa OpenBSD Support > > > Tour 2006" or add them to the 11 OpenBSD songs. > > > > ... as you mention it: an (maybe more funny) idea would be some benefit > > humppa concerts with e.g. Elaekelaeiset where some percent of the > > entrance fee will be donated to the OpenBSD project. Some CDs and > > t-shirts can be sold there, too. This way nobody has to pay for any > > have you organzied that yet?
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
Hello! On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:35:05AM -0700, Spruell, Darren-Perot wrote: >And a quick Google search reveals that this is a.) a dead horse, b.) already >in place: >http://mailman.theapt.org/listinfo/openbsd-newbies This should be referred to from http://www.openbsd.org/mail.html Systematically, it'd fit under Other Mailing Lists OTOH I'd think a reference quite far towards the top would perhaps be better for leading newbies there. There *is* already a reference from the FAQ, section 2.2. Perhaps that should be more prominent, too, if people don't like to (gently - I think there's no contradiction in advicing people to learn and to read and doing that in a gentle way) answer newbie questions on [EMAIL PROTECTED] >DS Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: openbsd and the money
* Tobias Kirschstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-25 20:26]: > > Maybe our friends of humppa.com will make a "Humppa OpenBSD Support > > Tour 2006" or add them to the 11 OpenBSD songs. > > ... as you mention it: an (maybe more funny) idea would be some benefit > humppa concerts with e.g. Elaekelaeiset where some percent of the > entrance fee will be donated to the OpenBSD project. Some CDs and > t-shirts can be sold there, too. This way nobody has to pay for any have you organzied that yet?
Re: It's not about the money
hmm, on Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 02:33:46PM -0800, Aaron Glenn said that > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only people > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your so who decides who deserves it and who doesn't? everybody seems to be happy about Theo's style until they actually get burnt by it. the problem mr de Raadt fails to see is, that he is not just a developer working on these projects in the background who can afford bad mouthing anyone he wants to. he is the _front_ man. we, the community actually get judged also by the leader of the project. > These days common sense and directness passes as arrogance. The *real* common sense and directness? you obviously have never got a private mail from mr de Raadt. the thread i started was about nothing else than directness. that one cannot look down on people and then ask for their money without a blink of an eye. does not work like that in the real world. it was not about handholding, misc@ harshness, whining for features. the only feature i have asked for on this mailing list for the last couple of years was t-shirts with the stuff in the front, not the back. flaming one's loayal user base just because they don't like his filthy mouth is a great way to thank for the donations. i will donate some soap to wash his mouth. -f -- history doesn't repeat itself. historians do.
Re: It's not about the money
No Theo, I've never asked anyone here to write something for me. I tend to do my own coding. When I saw you were in trouble back then I simply offered to see if I could help because I like your product. I know, it was ignorant of me. I should have known better. And you're quite right these threads have really not done anything for anyone, except maybe give some a bit more insight into human follyness. >"Altruism is a sham. Selflessness does not exist. The reason you offered to > help is beacause you felt good practicing your society's morals--you are > egotistical. This is not a bad thing, but such a dissection would deviate > too far from the scope of misc." Yes Travers, I can tell you're experienced in life. I'm glad you took the opportunity to share your insights with me and my silly society's morals. > "So, you asked what you could do, right? No Jacob not really, actually not at all, but it's water under the bridge. > "See, that's the problem. Just go raise the money _on your own_. There are > plenty of "good ideas" in the misc@ archives. Yes, I've since realized how futile and stupid it was of me to have such an idea. I promise it won't happen again. It's probably a good bet that these threads have made a few people realize some of their futilities too. So it's sort of like a blessing in disguise. I'm sure you will not hear anything on the subject for a good while now after getting it all out in the open. -- Steve Szmidt "For evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: It's not about the money
On 3/26/06, Theo de Raadt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help > > raise > > money, because I wanted to help. > > I have been the recipient of hundreds of these "I want to help" > letters. The problem is: lots of people really love OpenBSD and they really want to help however they can. In lots of cases it is difficult for them to really help or they just don't know how. But one thing is sure, it is all because of their love for OpenBSD. I count myselve to this group, I try to do the best I can but for a simple individual it is very difficult to be REALLY helpfull. I can try to come up with lots of crazy ideas, but I think it is a waste of time (and I don't mean my time). Therefore I will only donate what I can miss this month as soon as I receive my paycheck. I wish I could do better than that, but I can't. But whatever I do, I do it because of my love for OpenBSD. Wijnand -- OpenBSD needs your help improving the softwareworld, please donate: http://openbsd.org/donations.html Yes big code using companies, that includes you!
Re: It's not about the money
On Saturday 25 March 2006 20:14, steve szmidt wrote: > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to > help raise money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped > me. I figured it would be a nice thing for me to do. Altruism is a sham. Selflessness does not exist. The reason you offered to help is beacause you felt good practicing your society's morals--helping people with no concern of yourself. Well, since you only offered to help raise money, you got to feel good and do nothing at the same time. What a deal! That's a lot like prayer. "Dear God: Please help my neighbors since their house burned down." Do it yourself! Since you're influenced by popular morals, you probably will feel good by helping them or feel better by allievating your guilt. But don't con yourself into thinking that you're being selfless. You are getting something out of it--you are egotistical. This is not a bad thing, but such a dissection would deviate too far from the scope of misc. I help myself. That's why I've actually contributed (rather than spewing bunk like the rest of you malarky-brained meat wads sans nutritional value.) I know that my money funds tools that I use. It is no donation, and it certainly is not selfless. I think that this perception of "donation" is a stumbling block to corporate funding. Try using that, o' employed ones. > There are very few places indeed where people retain customers after > being verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. > Imagine the support if your attitude matched your code! OpenBSD's code is directionally porportional to the aggregate attitude of the developers. They have no time for anything but excelence. > You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be > happy to contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou > attitude. It's absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if > you had competition that were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on > the list would go elsewhere. Holier than thou? You're the selfless man! > It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird > clothes or something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure > you would not mind if someone threw a few nice words your way... OpenBSD is not fuled by anyone being nice. Insecure people need niceties. Travers Buda
Re: It's not about the money
It's a lot like mountain climbing. People do it, although personally I can't really imagine why. Because it's there. Because they can. That's why. It is not rational. Nice words maybe don't hurt, but at that level are certainly irrelevant. Me, I lurk on this list because of the attitude and the honesty. If there's something I really need to know. it's likely to show here and not much of anywhere else. Actually, considering, it's a very friendly place. They do their thing. It is their thing. It is not your thing or my thing. They will get an instant dislike of anything aimed at trying to make them do either your thing or my thing. I do not blame them. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > steve szmidt > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:14 PM > To: misc@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: It's not about the money > > > On Saturday 25 March 2006 17:33, you wrote: > > > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only > > people > > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your > > own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes > > away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a > > whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and > > those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I > > have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed > > by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely > > deserve it. > > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time > to help raise > money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped me. I > figured it > would be a nice thing for me to do. > > I got ripped so badly in a stream of four letter words I thought > I was back in > boot camp. My kind was not needed and such. Of course it was entirely in > someones mind who I was as it sure as heck was not known. > > Yeah, it was not done on the list. But never the less by what you > call a key > member. Several others have shared their experiences with me. > Maybe because > I've offered a kind word after some public abuse. > > Jim Snyder, and others is dead on, but some people simply don't > see it. It's > invisible to a whole bunch, which is really sad. Personally I had > not heard > such fould language since boot camp. > > Your judgement as to what constitutes "deserve" is not on par > with most others > outside this list. Heck, this list is infamous for toasting people. > > > Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly > > too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to > > Tired cliche?!? > > He's, like most of us, really grateful for the code, and pay in > kind by buying > a copy every six months. Often times I get new people to buy it too. > > > support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand > > through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going > > to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero > > understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part > > is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by > > giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them > > some good. > > This is not Jim whining... > > > Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the > > world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent > > to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply > > drop a $10K check to the project. > > That has never been questioned. And not related to Jim's comment. > > > Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what > > made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-: > > There are very few places indeed where people retain customers > after being > verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. Imagine the > support if your attitude matched your code! > > You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be > happy to > contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou attitude. It's > absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if you had > competition that > were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on the list would go elsewhere. > > It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird > clothes or > something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure you > would not mind > if someone threw a few nice words your way... > > -- > > Steve Szmidt > > "For evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. > Edmund Burke
Re: It's not about the money
>The 10 people who are helping get it. They know that help is about >action, and that if you stops at just words, it just plain isn't help. the extent to which this thread has wasted time and not helped to draw any new conclusions is astonishing. theo makes a good point when he accounts for the time wasted by such outpourings of "support". i have abstained from posting to this thread until now since i see it as acutely pointless. marco's original appeal and the sea of idiotic responses made me think "i should put up or shut up, not whine like a little kid". i suggest people stop whining since it doesn't change anything. if theo were one to make compromises, would openbsd even exist? it takes someone who is unwilling to compromise to achieve anything truly great. compromise means bending your will to suit others and a diminished purity of essence. if you're unable to grok that, you should probably be watching TV. pronate and donate or stay cross.
Re: It's not about the money
On Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 09:14:17PM -0500, steve szmidt wrote: > On Saturday 25 March 2006 17:33, you wrote: > > > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only > > people > > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your > > own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes > > away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a > > whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and > > those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I > > have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed > > by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely > > deserve it. > > Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help > raise > money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped me. I figured it > would be a nice thing for me to do. So, you asked what you could do, right? See, that's the problem. Just go raise the money _on your own_. There are plenty of "good ideas" in the misc@ archives. > I got ripped so badly in a stream of four letter words I thought I was back > in > boot camp. My kind was not needed and such. Of course it was entirely in > someones mind who I was as it sure as heck was not known. Maybe you were the third of fourth person that day that said they wanted to help and asked how. Now, if the person you asked is coordinating all the helpful people and figuring out what they should do next, then how is the person going to have time to hack? This has all been explained before. > Yeah, it was not done on the list. But never the less by what you call a key > member. Several others have shared their experiences with me. Maybe because > I've offered a kind word after some public abuse. > > Jim Snyder, and others is dead on, but some people simply don't see it. It's > invisible to a whole bunch, which is really sad. Personally I had not heard > such fould language since boot camp. Jim says the problem is the culture. I kind of agree. Seems people who want to be part of the cmmunity but don't try to understand the culture (do your homework first, read docs, ask concise and clear questions, etc) end up feeling abused. > Your judgement as to what constitutes "deserve" is not on par with most > others > outside this list. Heck, this list is infamous for toasting people. > > > Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly > > too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to > > Tired cliche?!? > > He's, like most of us, really grateful for the code, and pay in kind by > buying > a copy every six months. Often times I get new people to buy it too. > > > support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand > > through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going > > to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero > > understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part > > is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by > > giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them > > some good. > > This is not Jim whining... > > > Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the > > world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent > > to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply > > drop a $10K check to the project. > > That has never been questioned. And not related to Jim's comment. > > > Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what > > made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-: > > There are very few places indeed where people retain customers after being > verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. Imagine the > support if your attitude matched your code! > > You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be happy to > contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou attitude. It's > absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if you had competition that > were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on the list would go elsewhere. > > It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird clothes or > something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure you would not mind > if someone threw a few nice words your way... Curious who "you" is here. The person you are replying to is not an OpenBSD developer. -- <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: It's not about the money
> Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help > raise > money, because I wanted to help. I have been the recipient of hundreds of these "I want to help" letters. In this last donation drive I have received over 200 letters, and then had to spend a lot of hours going through them. In the end, after about 10 of them will go somewhere, with actual people who can help OpenBSD and OpenSSH get where they want to. Those letters contain actual offers to fund hackathons, or actual offers to force their employer to do the right thing, or they contain questions about how much donation would help -- followed by an donation happening. The other 190 mails have been people telling us to change our process; and about 180 of them have been people telling us that we would be better off making our software less free. Helping us does not include telling us how to make our software less free for some segment of the market. It does not include telling us to treat some software uses less equal than others. Helping us does not include telling us to setup a US non-profit when I am not US-based, and when a US non-profit would have a big problem funding things that are almost exclusively not in the US. It does not include asking me 10 questions about our processes and such when those things are evident on our mailing list and even in the first sentence of our web page. It does not include any sentence like "I want to help you, but you must help me understand ..." The 10 people who are helping get it. They know that help is about action, and that if you stops at just words, it just plain isn't help. I don't remember you specifically, but I can make a really good guess which catagory you are in. SO go ahead, take this mail as a rebuke, take it as an attack on you if you must. Say that this is exactly why misc@ is a problem for you, and why that justifies you villifying us further. But in the end, these are precisely the types of mails and personalities that keep me from finishing the OpenSSH cleanup I am doing. That's helpful? You have started this thread with EXACTLY the kind of mail that you say you have a problem with. Pretty smurt, eh.
Re: It's not about the money
On Saturday 25 March 2006 17:33, you wrote: > Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only people > that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your > own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes > away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a > whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and > those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I > have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed > by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely > deserve it. Hmm. The last time money was short I unselfishly offered my time to help raise money, because I wanted to help. Help those who had helped me. I figured it would be a nice thing for me to do. I got ripped so badly in a stream of four letter words I thought I was back in boot camp. My kind was not needed and such. Of course it was entirely in someones mind who I was as it sure as heck was not known. Yeah, it was not done on the list. But never the less by what you call a key member. Several others have shared their experiences with me. Maybe because I've offered a kind word after some public abuse. Jim Snyder, and others is dead on, but some people simply don't see it. It's invisible to a whole bunch, which is really sad. Personally I had not heard such fould language since boot camp. Your judgement as to what constitutes "deserve" is not on par with most others outside this list. Heck, this list is infamous for toasting people. > Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly > too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to Tired cliche?!? He's, like most of us, really grateful for the code, and pay in kind by buying a copy every six months. Often times I get new people to buy it too. > support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand > through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going > to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero > understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part > is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by > giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them > some good. This is not Jim whining... > Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the > world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent > to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply > drop a $10K check to the project. That has never been questioned. And not related to Jim's comment. > Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what > made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-: There are very few places indeed where people retain customers after being verbally abused. It speaks droves of how good your code is. Imagine the support if your attitude matched your code! You are burning bridges left right and center with those who'd be happy to contribute, had it not been for the holier than thou attitude. It's absolutely amazing people donate at all. Imagine if you had competition that were nice! Anyone who'd spent any time on the list would go elsewhere. It's not like anyone is suggesting you go celebate, or wear weird clothes or something. People just like being treated nicely. I'm sure you would not mind if someone threw a few nice words your way... -- Steve Szmidt "For evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mar 25, 2006, at 6:19 PM, eric wrote: On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 16:38:55 -0700, Theo de Raadt proclaimed... Jason, get real -- everyone is entitled to you doing work for free. We do it. You must do it. Everyone else on this mailing list works for free, didn't you know that? Communism is a great idea when all the slaves are forced into it. What the fuck, I was trying to see if he could charge more so more money could go to the project. I don't give a shit if it's him billing out at $500 an hour. I'm happy to discuss custom contracts with potential clients. I've already had similar discussions with a couple other folks off-list. Thanks, -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: openbsd and the money
On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 16:38:55 -0700, Theo de Raadt proclaimed... > Jason, get real -- everyone is entitled to you doing work for free. > We do it. You must do it. > > Everyone else on this mailing list works for free, didn't you know > that? > > Communism is a great idea when all the slaves are forced into it. What the fuck, I was trying to see if he could charge more so more money could go to the project. I don't give a shit if it's him billing out at $500 an hour. - Eric
Re: It's not about the money
On 3/25/06, Jim Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello All, > > I've been passively following the "money threads" from the very first > post. Considering that this topic has generated over 100 replies, > perhaps this should serve as a clue to its importance. > > Background: I'm a second-generation airline pilot, therefor I've been > many places and worked with many people in a team environment. This > is not to brag. This is to explain my perspective. I love > technology. I love OpenBSD. And I want OpenBSD to thrive. > > The money, or lack of, is not the problem. It is the symptom. The > problem is the culture of condescension. It's very simple. Treat > people like second-class citizens and they will respond accordingly. > This is not quantum physics, folks. This is about people. The code > is beautiful. OpenBSD has no equal. And yet people are abandoning > the community in droves. By what measure? CD sales have dropped while a corresponding increase in FTP downloads occurs. No one is leaving, they're just not supporting the project monetarily; they're still using the code. > I un-subscribed from OpenBSD-misc a long time ago because I realized > quickly that I would not be posting any questions. Why slam my inbox > and be insulted when I can just as easily read the archives. Have you ever read [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean actually read it? The only people that get slammed are those that deserve it. You're supposed to do your own homework - there is no hand holding because hand holding takes away time from more productive things, like code. The community as a whole spends a great deal of effort clearly documenting everything and those that choose to ignore that effort get the brunt of the flames. I have never seen, in my four years on this list, anyone getting flamed by a developer or well-known community member that didn't absolutely deserve it. > A message to Mr. de Raadt and the OpenBSD team: You are exceptionally > gifted hackers. OpenBSD is in a class of its own. You have given the > world a wonderful gift. (several gifts actually) And the project is > now at a critical turning point. Wake up. You can go on pretending > that the problem is too many selfish whiners and too many selfish > vendors. Or you can take a good hard look in the mirror. Your > foundation is cracking. Your sandbox is getting smaller, and it's > starting to smell like the cat got in there. Blah blah blah, enough with the tired cliches. The problem is exactly too many selfish whiners. They want more and more, without having to support the project, and then they want everyone to hold their hand through it. "Why doesnt my laptop touchpad work?" "When are you going to support Adaptec cards? FreeBSD supports it!" These people have zero understanding of OpenBSD or open source in general; and the sad part is, they don't even know it. Consider OpenBSD is doing them a favor by giving them a harsh reality check. One can only hope it will do them some good. > If you are waiting for the support of IBM, Cisco, Sun, or any other > vendor, get real. They don't give a damn. They don't care if OpenSSH > lives or dies. They already have the source code. OpenSSH is already > the world standard. Vendors do care. They have to care exactly because OpenSSH is the world standard. It would cost them far more to develop in house talent to maintain and extend the current codebase than it would to simply drop a $10K check to the project. > Look, I believe in directness more than anybody. It has saved my life > on a few occasions. But there is a big difference between directness > and arrogance. It is this arrogance that is stifling OpenBSD. It is > the culture. These days common sense and directness passes as arrogance. The *real* community cannot, will not, and should not spend cycles holding hands, filling out grants, and opening up non-profit groups. The goal here is to develop secure, open code that any and all can use to build a better computing environment for *everyone*. > So you can tell me to STFU and quit wasting your precious time that > could be spent coding. Fine. Your code is already beautiful. You > can wear it like a crown. It's the culture that needs improvement. > Example comes from above. Leadership starts at the top. Blah blah blah, more tired cliches. The culture here is exactly what made the code "beautiful". So kindly, STFU (-:
It's not about the money
Hello All, I've been passively following the "money threads" from the very first post. Considering that this topic has generated over 100 replies, perhaps this should serve as a clue to its importance. Background: I'm a second-generation airline pilot, therefor I've been many places and worked with many people in a team environment. This is not to brag. This is to explain my perspective. I love technology. I love OpenBSD. And I want OpenBSD to thrive. The money, or lack of, is not the problem. It is the symptom. The problem is the culture of condescension. It's very simple. Treat people like second-class citizens and they will respond accordingly. This is not quantum physics, folks. This is about people. The code is beautiful. OpenBSD has no equal. And yet people are abandoning the community in droves. I un-subscribed from OpenBSD-misc a long time ago because I realized quickly that I would not be posting any questions. Why slam my inbox and be insulted when I can just as easily read the archives. A message to Mr. de Raadt and the OpenBSD team: You are exceptionally gifted hackers. OpenBSD is in a class of its own. You have given the world a wonderful gift. (several gifts actually) And the project is now at a critical turning point. Wake up. You can go on pretending that the problem is too many selfish whiners and too many selfish vendors. Or you can take a good hard look in the mirror. Your foundation is cracking. Your sandbox is getting smaller, and it's starting to smell like the cat got in there. If you are waiting for the support of IBM, Cisco, Sun, or any other vendor, get real. They don't give a damn. They don't care if OpenSSH lives or dies. They already have the source code. OpenSSH is already the world standard. Look, I believe in directness more than anybody. It has saved my life on a few occasions. But there is a big difference between directness and arrogance. It is this arrogance that is stifling OpenBSD. It is the culture. So you can tell me to STFU and quit wasting your precious time that could be spent coding. Fine. Your code is already beautiful. You can wear it like a crown. It's the culture that needs improvement. Example comes from above. Leadership starts at the top. Mr. de Raadt, I sincerely thank you for all the gifts that you and your team have given the world. Few people have made such contributions to the world. And I hope like hell that OpenBSD enjoys a long prosperous life. Regards, Jim Snyder
Re: openbsd and the money
Hi,
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 19:44:32 +0100
Oliver Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The songs are great - but like open{bsd,ssh} already at the public ftp
> servers. I don't think that there will be so many dudes who will pay
> for 9 old and only 2 new songs about 20-30 USD - even the artwork is
> great as usual. Such a production will not cover the original costs.
I also think this won't work, but...
> Maybe our friends of humppa.com will make a "Humppa OpenBSD Support
> Tour 2006" or add them to the 11 OpenBSD songs.
... as you mention it: an (maybe more funny) idea would be some benefit
humppa concerts with e.g. Elaekelaeiset where some percent of the
entrance fee will be donated to the OpenBSD project. Some CDs and
t-shirts can be sold there, too. This way nobody has to pay for any
services, downloads or anything else which would make OpenBSD less free
than it is and it would bring much more fun into the whole thing.
--
lev
Documentation is the castor oil of programming. Managers know it must
be good because the programmers hate it so much.
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had
a name of signature.asc]
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:15:27PM -0800, Brian wrote: > There is no reason to provide funding from a business standpoint. What does > the business gain? Does having a "business standpoint" require shutting off all common sense? Everytime someone mentions things like "business decision" or "business standpoint" you're practically *guaranteed* to hear an extremely narrowminded and shortsighted argument. > No corporation is gonna provide funding unless they get something out of it. The companies which integrated Sendmail all just had to spend a lot of money to issue an advisory about the latest vulnerability. They had to scramble to patch things on their version of Sendmail, or at least make sure that the Sendmail-supplied patches work well on their particular OS. As we all know, OpenSSH is used by many companies in many products. A high quality OpenSSH is in the interest of each and every company. A high quality OpenSSH *lowers* costs, both today (because it's freely available), and in the future because high quality means less bugs, wich means a significantly lowered chance of having to spend a lot money should a vulnerability be found. If it would no longer be possible (for whatever reason) to provide high quality software, costs for each company would go *up* much more than it would cost all of them together to make it possible for a project like OpenBSD to keep providing high quality OpenSSH software. -- Jurjen Oskam
Re: openbsd and the money
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 thankless? you sir, are the most thankless project leader i have ever seen in my life. We thank with code. We don't come shower people with nice words. We write code. i have been advocating openbsd since the 2.6 times and buying cds/shirts/posters since i started making money. wim can tell you that, we mail a lot, because except one time, all my stuff was always late :) oh, and my 3.8 poster is still not here (sorry wim). Advocacy is a way that our user community can help themselves, because it means that we can keep writing code. Oh, I thought you said something nice above, but you managed to sneak in even more complaining. i raise controversial issues on misc@ i admit that, some might even call it flaming, i call it food for thought. people pretend some questions/issues dont exist or they just don't ask it, because they get attacked. It is not food for thought. It is just you showing that you believe that when we write something, and then you show thanks to us, we should show thanks back to you. That makes no sense. If you wish for us to spend our time thanking people for thanking us, rather than writing more code, you have got it all wrong. _i_ started this thread because _i_ think you and some NO. You started this thread because you like to hear yourself talk. There is NOTHING else going on, except for you liking the sound of your own voice, and your own dissatisfied keystrokes. If you are so dissatisfied with the things that we do for you, PLEASE stop using them. Go find someone else who can satisfy you. of devs are not thankful, that you flame us till we burn but accept our money. and now you say _i_ am not thankful. sir, you are a master of words. No, we only flame losers who whine, whine, WHINE, and then a week later keep WHINING. "You guys keep giving us software! But you never say nice words! You suck!". It is whining. It is NOTHING but whining. i am a man of principles just as you. so i do what i believe in. just like you. You are not a man. You are a whiny child who thinks that they should get their software, for free, and then when the nice words are not included they can spend a few minutes to make personal attacks on the people who spent hundreds and thousands of hours writing it. Maybe you are not even a man, because I know whiny children who are nicer than you. but somehow we always end up at the wrong wavelength. you will not believe, but it is not my intention. The frequency and amplitude of your whining is just too much for us. Please stop it immediately. Just shut up! Amen to the shutup! Thank you, Theo, for OpenBSD. I have been a windoze lazyass for years. OpenBSD has made me put on my thinking cap again. They say that keeps you young. Hope so, cause I'm getting old. Bought cd's & a t-shirt. Nice about the donations page, too. Will remember to do so every time I get some extra dough. Anything to keep you guys writing the great code you do. Ignore the whiners! Some may misconstrue this as ass kissing, but it's sincere. Thanks to you & the other developers, I'm almost weaned off insecure, expensive M$, as soon as my scanner gets here from eBay. Talked to one of the guys in the MIS dept the other night at the casino where I work, & told him some of the stuff I was doing with OpenBSD, esp with network printing & security. Apparently, they're doing the same thing there. I have no influence there at all, except for what bugs I can plant in their ears, like the fellow above. I will continue to do so, every chance I get. Nobody's more money hungry, probably, than casinos, but hey, you never know. Maybe they'll spring for some paid for subscriptions. Thanks again for the great project. As for me, no thanks needed or expected from you or the others. The project is more than enough thanks. Denny White Biloxi, MS GnuPG key : 0x1644E79A | http://wwwkeys.nl.pgp.net Fingerprint: D0A9 AD44 1F10 E09E 0E67 EC25 CB44 F2E5 1644 E79A iD8DBQFEJFosy0Ty5RZE55oRAuv8AJ9NCXuFLLg+joxgSXyXk7rouGyHbQCfdtbF vWGFp6phKUHge2UAOoAgU5E= =pdpV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 03:15:27PM -0800, Brian wrote: > I think I doubt. IMHO, this thread should die for now. Byy CDs, donate, hack, clean up your refridgerator, whatever is important for you. Ciao, Kili
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
"Copyright law is complex, OpenBSD policy is simple - OpenBSD strives to maintain the spirit of the original Berkeley Unix copyrights." This is the first sentence of this page: http://www.openbsd.org/policy.html Can't people see how ridiculous is all that talk about "why don't we change the license"? It's written clearly: "strives", which means that being free as Berkeley Unix was is damn important to the project. Besides, let's say that all of a sudden OpenSSH's license changes as has been suggested by many. Any company and/or project could think "Well, the new version has XXX license but the previous version is BSD! So, let's just get the old code and fork it." Read the OpenSSH history here: http://openssh.org/history.html Whoo, these first sentences are really great: "OpenSSH is a derivative of the original free ssh 1.2.12 release from Tatu Ylvnen." Tatu changed the license and created... SSH.com! How ironic... why wouldn't someone think to do just the same if OpenSSH's license changed? Cut these threads, please, and let the devs code. On 3/24/06, Brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- "Spruell, Darren-Perot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Better approach. How about said companies belly up and support the group > > that enables them (in part) to enjoy the financial success they have? > > Because there is no reason for them to. Here's what would happen: > > 1) license change comes out > 2) IT looks for alternative program > 3) IT provides figures to finance for either the alternative program, >the new license, or in house development > 4) finance runs some cash flow analysis and sits down with the CIO and CFO > based >on the results > 5) suggestion is provided to management > > I work in finance. There is no reason to provide funding from a business > standpoint. What does the business gain? Corporations basically have a > free > development team. Sure they cannot dictate requests, but the code quality > is > high and the product works well. > > Honestly, unless the openSSH team mandates funding, no one will cough up > cash. > And the license price has to be the sweet spot, where it isn't too high > that no > funding is received and not too low that it doesn't accomplish anything. > > And Theo from his messages doesn't want the direction of the program > dictated > to him by folks that donate. No corporation is gonna provide funding > unless > they get something out of it. > > I think Theo needs to put his foot down on this issue. I would think of > openSSH as separate from openBSD. I would not advocate changing licenses > on > the rest of openBSD. Of course, the downside is that some of the > corporations > might withhold documentation needed for driver development unless the > license > is lifted. > > Cheers, > > Brian > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > -- Felipe Brant Scarel PATUX/OpenBSD Project Leader (http://www.patux.cic.unb.br)
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
--- "Spruell, Darren-Perot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Better approach. How about said companies belly up and support the group > that enables them (in part) to enjoy the financial success they have? Because there is no reason for them to. Here's what would happen: 1) license change comes out 2) IT looks for alternative program 3) IT provides figures to finance for either the alternative program, the new license, or in house development 4) finance runs some cash flow analysis and sits down with the CIO and CFO based on the results 5) suggestion is provided to management I work in finance. There is no reason to provide funding from a business standpoint. What does the business gain? Corporations basically have a free development team. Sure they cannot dictate requests, but the code quality is high and the product works well. Honestly, unless the openSSH team mandates funding, no one will cough up cash. And the license price has to be the sweet spot, where it isn't too high that no funding is received and not too low that it doesn't accomplish anything. And Theo from his messages doesn't want the direction of the program dictated to him by folks that donate. No corporation is gonna provide funding unless they get something out of it. I think Theo needs to put his foot down on this issue. I would think of openSSH as separate from openBSD. I would not advocate changing licenses on the rest of openBSD. Of course, the downside is that some of the corporations might withhold documentation needed for driver development unless the license is lifted. Cheers, Brian Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006, Chet Uber wrote: 1. Read the damn FAQ's, newbies, and do a Google search on what you are about to waste list bandwidth on. People on the project spend good time getting this done for us. 2. Buy the CD, and quit bitching about it. For that matter be a good neighbor and buy one copy per machine you run the OS on. 3. If you think that the price is unwarranted and unaffordable, you really need to get a job so you can afford the meager fee. Or donate some blood? 4. The stickers make it all worth it. CU Chet Uber President and Chief Scientist SecurityPosture, Inc. 3718 N 113 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68164 vox +1 (402) 505-9684 | fax +1 (402) 932-2130 | cell (402) 813-3211 -- This communication is confidential to the parties it was intended to serve I kind of like #3 (donate blood) easy $10 for OpenBSD and help save someone's existence at the same time. I'm sure we can all spare a little and the ratio of clean usable computer geek blood is bound to be higher than the average seeing as how many of us spend 90% of time in front of a monitor leaving us only 10% of time to go out and impurify ourselves. -Matt-
Re: openbsd and the money
> Realistically, I can't offer my services out for free at more than 8 > hours per customer. If someone wants to pay me above and beyond, > with the extra funds earmarked for a donation to OpenBSD, I'll gladly > pass the money on to the project. Jason, get real -- everyone is entitled to you doing work for free. We do it. You must do it. Everyone else on this mailing list works for free, didn't you know that? Communism is a great idea when all the slaves are forced into it.
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mar 24, 2006, at 4:15 PM, eric wrote: On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 15:59:31 -0500, Jason Dixon proclaimed... Or the main page at http://www.dixongroup.net/?q=openbsd. What about a "gold" bundle that is $1000 or more? I mean, money is just water to most corporations. If there's a legit product, hell, they pay anything for it. Realistically, I can't offer my services out for free at more than 8 hours per customer. If someone wants to pay me above and beyond, with the extra funds earmarked for a donation to OpenBSD, I'll gladly pass the money on to the project. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: OpenBSD and the money
* Michael Favinsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-24 19:53]: > 2) Lots of companies can't send money out until they "get a bill." There > needs to be some way to generate a "donation invoice" that can be taken to > accounting. We need to be able to present our accounting departments with > paperwork that says something to the effect of "We owe OpenBSD $1000." that is in place for ages. you can donate through our order system. (for europe certainly, not absolutely certain for north america, but I think it's the same) -- BS Web Services, http://www.bsws.de/ OpenBSD-based Webhosting, Mail Services, Managed Servers, ... Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity. (Dennis Ritchie)
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
Finally having to weight in: I personally and my company has been buying at least 2 copies of each release and t-shirts for as long as I can remember. The store folks do a great job, and the one time they mixed up an order they sent me a T-shirt and a nice reply. Theo and many others have worked hard for years to give us an outstanding OS, and Theo and others have made it a cost-effective distribution even in the one CD per machine ration. During this time he and his team have had to deal with what are complicated licensing and design issues. I always wonder, do people believe that this happens by some magic method, or do they not get that it is: a lot of long hours, people complaining about things covered in FAQ's or available in archive, and in general being painted as some money grubbing developer every-time you tried to take the ship farther? So please for those of us that need the bandwidth of these groups to follow critical issues that have not been covered in the past: 1. Read the damn FAQ's, newbies, and do a Google search on what you are about to waste list bandwidth on. People on the project spend good time getting this done for us. 2. Buy the CD, and quit bitching about it. For that matter be a good neighbor and buy one copy per machine you run the OS on. 3. If you think that the price is unwarranted and unaffordable, you really need to get a job so you can afford the meager fee. Or donate some blood? 4. The stickers make it all worth it. So here is my plea. Move on Also one promise if someone actually does start copying the current obsd distribtion ISO that is copyright Theo; I for one will make donation to help Theo hire legal counsel to file a suit under WIPO and all other applicable jurisdictional piracy statutes to stop the distribution. He has been creative in getting funds to make the ship go. If you don't like it. Get off the ship. Please note I do not work for Theo and am not a principal developer. I am just a client for the OpenBSD distribution, making my own additions for our clients and ourselves as needed. My comments should probably have remained in my head, but this thread made me so fumed I had to actually reach for my nitro tablets and take two. Flame away if you must. Move on and be a good citizen. Life is too short to argue over things under < $50 CU Chet Uber President and Chief Scientist SecurityPosture, Inc. 3718 N 113 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68164 vox +1 (402) 505-9684 | fax +1 (402) 932-2130 | cell (402) 813-3211 -- This communication is confidential to the parties it was intended to serve --
Re: openbsd and the money
On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 15:59:31 -0500, Jason Dixon proclaimed... > Or the main page at http://www.dixongroup.net/?q=openbsd. What about a "gold" bundle that is $1000 or more? I mean, money is just water to most corporations. If there's a legit product, hell, they pay anything for it.
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
James Mackinnon wrote: If you do offer paypal for the stuff above, I will buy more frequently as to do my part to help support the System I trust with my systems/network security. I will send a donation now as well as I can do that VIA paypal (won't be large, but it will be a donation) It's your lucky day. From http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html#cshop Other payment methods: * PayPal: Payments may be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you know the total, including shipping, like for single CD sets (see mail order costs below or ask us), just place a web order, select payment method "pre-arranged", and put a note in the comments section of the order that payment is being made by PayPal. Pay in either US dollars, Canadian dollars or Euros.
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mar 24, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Diana Eichert wrote: On Fri, 24 Mar 2006, Kevin wrote: SNIP We can (and do) have the company purchase one copy of each release CD set. I might be able to convince them to go for Jason Dixon's offer (if it's still valid), though it might need a little polishing to be buzzword-compliant. Jason't offer is still available per an e-mail conversation I just had with him. You can't ask for much more than what Jason offered. http://www.dixongroup.net/openbsd_bundle_tos.html Or the main page at http://www.dixongroup.net/?q=openbsd. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
Hey I don't usually say much on the mailing list, but if I could make just 1 suggestion, offer CD's, posters and BSDWare VIA Paypal payments. I know myself, I dumped my credit cards because, well, I like to spend, But I have replaced that with my paypal usage and would use paypal to purchase BSD stuff for sure.. I love BSD, I sell the idea of openBSD to everyone I talk to and have recently sat in a business meeting and during this, I have worked on convincing a company that has ISA server running to replace that junk with OpenBSD PF/ISAKMPD because it blows the doors off of ISA in performance and rebuild time and is much more flexable in tools available and well, its not, ISA :) I get my company to buy the a CD set every 6 months, I'm a little behind on 3.9 (I never purchase right away) so I will get that hashed out First of next week and get it ordered up.. If you do offer paypal for the stuff above, I will buy more frequently as to do my part to help support the System I trust with my systems/network security. I will send a donation now as well as I can do that VIA paypal (won't be large, but it will be a donation) Anyhow, Just wanted to mention that. It might go on deaf ears, but I'm just trying to offer a suggestion that would possibly get more orders with little work on setting it up. NOTE: If someone already suggested this, and it got slammed down or something, I'm sorry, I have read as much of the postings I can so I might have missed some. James Mackinnon Devantec Solutions - Original Message - From: "Theo de Raadt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 PM Subject: Re: openbsd and the money -solutions I did not mean to step on another sacred cow - I really only wanted to suggest redirecting this thread toward workable solutions. The problem is that many of the "workable solutions" people are suggesting are completely ridiculous. They are in the catagory of "Cater to me, the entire world is just like me" when we know is not true. Now please, you are keeping many of us from the source code.
Re: openbsd and the money
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006, Kevin wrote: SNIP > We can (and do) have the company purchase one copy of each release CD set. > I might be able to convince them to go for Jason Dixon's offer (if > it's still valid), though it might need a little polishing to be > buzzword-compliant. Jason't offer is still available per an e-mail conversation I just had with him. You can't ask for much more than what Jason offered. http://www.dixongroup.net/openbsd_bundle_tos.html diana
Re: openbsd and the money
On 3/24/06, Theo de Raadt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > These are not people who want to give. They want to give > without giving. They simply want to focus their money into > being a writeoff, which means that our taxation systems > increasingly place more and more of a burden on individuals, > and less of a burden on companies. Corporations are not people, a corporation exists to "maximize shareholder value", thus writeoffs. As an employee of a corporation, my options for directing funding towards OpenBSD are limited -- I can't ask finance write a check for a pseudorandom dollar amount to "Theo De Raadt". My department has budgets for hardware, software, support, salary, consulting, but no category for "I just want to give". We can (and do) have the company purchase one copy of each release CD set. I might be able to convince them to go for Jason Dixon's offer (if it's still valid), though it might need a little polishing to be buzzword-compliant. > They are not taxed -- there is no tax on a gift. And with gifts to a 501(c)(3). my employer will match $2 for every $1 donated, up to $500. A lot of "free" money is being left on the table right there. OTOH, were I to found a 501(c)(3) "OpenBSD Foundation", the strict "conflict of interest" policy would almost certainly prohibit me from soliciting any donations from my employer. Kevin
Re: openbsd and the money
On Mar 24, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Kevin wrote: We can (and do) have the company purchase one copy of each release CD set. I might be able to convince them to go for Jason Dixon's offer (if it's still valid), though it might need a little polishing to be buzzword-compliant. If there is interest, the offer is still valid. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: openbsd and the money
On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:29:19AM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> That said, when 4.0 comes out there will likely be an audio CD made of
> all 11 of the songs, with artwork to match, sold seperately.
The songs are great - but like open{bsd,ssh} already at the public ftp
servers. I don't think that there will be so many dudes who will pay
for 9 old and only 2 new songs about 20-30 USD - even the artwork is
great as usual. Such a production will not cover the original costs.
Maybe our friends of humppa.com will make a "Humppa OpenBSD Support
Tour 2006" or add them to the 11 OpenBSD songs.
--
Oliver Peter, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ# 113969174
"Worker bees can leave. Even drones can fly away. The Queen is their slave."
Re: OpenBSD and the money
On a more productive note... >From the Donations page: Simply send a donation cheque in CDN/US/EUR funds made out to Theo de Raadt, since cheques made out to "OpenBSD" cannot be cashed. This creates a problem for companies that want to make donations. I think we all agree we'd rather see larger donations from companies / corporate entities than the revenue brought in from a T-shirt or a small individual donation. However, most companies are either unwilling or unable to cut a check to "Some guy in Canada." Writing a check to Theo de Raadt in Canada is logistically either very difficult or simply impossible. We have to get approvals, PO's, go through accounting departments, etc. Imagine having to explain to some beancounter that you have to send some guy in a foreign land a personal check. We want to donate, our direct management agrees, but getting it through accounting is impossible given these circumstances. There are some things that would help companies/corporations donate to OpenBSD. 1) Create a DBA (Doing Business As) or some other functional entity named "OpenBSD" that can have a check written to it. It's a lot easier to get a check written to a business than to an individual. 2) Lots of companies can't send money out until they "get a bill." There needs to be some way to generate a "donation invoice" that can be taken to accounting. We need to be able to present our accounting departments with paperwork that says something to the effect of "We owe OpenBSD $1000." -Original Message- From: Theo de Raadt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:52 AM To: Peter Fraser Cc: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: OpenBSD and the money We have nowhere to start. Alberta does not care about what we do. This is an oil place, not a IT place.
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Why don't we have separate lists? One for general questions, > and gently > guiding new users to the FAQ and man pages? It can be all fuzzy and > warm; a place for pleasantries. And a separate list for more > experienced > users that want to dwell in the lair of dragons. Posters get > access to > the top people to help resolve issues, but asking a dumb > question will > get them ignored (at best). And a quick Google search reveals that this is a.) a dead horse, b.) already in place: http://mailman.theapt.org/listinfo/openbsd-newbies DS
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > That said, I think a wall of shame page on the OpenSSH site > > might be a good idea: one listing all those big companies > > mentioned that have never donated a dime. Negative PR might > > result in more donations than managers receiving the minor > > annoyance message forwarded to them, which they'll simply delete > > and forget about. > > Too bad openSSH couldn't just require a license fee for openSSH to > be included in OS's besides openBSD that are sold for money. > This would > include corporate use as well. So if IBM wanted to include openSSH > in one of its products sold to someone, they would have to pay openSSH > to include it in their product or kick back to the openSSH > team some percentage > of the revenue generated by that product. Complicating licensing and reducing freedom obviously don't fit project goals. Better approach. How about said companies belly up and support the group that enables them (in part) to enjoy the financial success they have? You shouldn't *have* to levy a license against somebody to get them to show some appreciation. Call it the moral right thing, or social responsibility, or whatever. It's not about paying for services or products. If that was the goal, don't you think that would have been put in place up front and called OpenSSH ClosedSSH and sold commercially? Ditto for OpenBSD? What is lacking is the symbiotic relationship that the corporations that are in a place to support the project don't currently care to engage in. For these companies, a parasitic approach is appropriate and they will simply take from the project (which, yes, they are entitled to because of the free licensing, BUT...) and never *give* back. This is parasitic. These organizations need to step up and enable the project that enables them. Leveraging licensing against them shouldn't be (and isn't) required. Period. A little goodwill, or charity, or responsibility or logic may be. > Of course, the license would have to be written so the > openSSH team is not > obligated to do support. Yet amazingly, the current license already is. YOU'RE FIXING THE WRONG PROBLEM. The problem to fix is _why don't the moneybag corporations contribute to the project that enables them to be successful?_ That problem is not fixed by compromising values and convoluting licensing. And its not fixed by bludgeoning them with a license clause. You're coming back to the realm of commercial software again. > If IBM wanted their employees to > use openSSH, they > would have to pay a site license fee. Of course, home users > (non-business) and > universities would be excluded. Sounds convoluted. DS
Re: openbsd and the money -solutions
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 08:17:42PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/OpenBSD_needs_a_major_donor > > http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/21/1555243 > > > > No one seems to care (unless donations have shot up and Theo, et. al. > > haven't mentioned it) > > >From what I see, we have received a mini flood of donations, which > means there will soon be a drought. It is already slowing down a lot. > In the end, it will not be enough, unless there is another "funding > drive" just like this in another 6 months. > > If I can try to estimate the situation, having seen how it works > before.. hold onto your seats, this is confusing: > > In the end, 50% of what we have gotten we would have received anyways > from nice donators over the coming 6 months. So we will have received > about twice as much as normal, but just sooner. Of course, since this > rush was driven by a press deluge on this issue (just check > news.google), people will very quickly forget, and not wish to help us > again quite as soon. As I said, it is already slowing down. There > are a finite number of people who can be reached directly via even > these information forums... One thing you can do is extend the conversation, politely, to your local LUG/BUG/UUG mailing list (which I imagine many of us are on.) Some of them will have seen it on slashdot, but many won't. Bringing in new donors and interested people in OpenSSH will help more than us all chipping in what we would have already (full disclosure: I'm a lapsed CD buyer who right now placed his first CD order in a couple years). -- David Terrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://meat.net/
