Re: [neonixie-l] Time for my annual (?) question...mostly for David F....

[NeonJohn]

On 06/15/2018 07:34 AM, 'Grahame' via neonixie-l wrote:
> Hi Kerry
> 
> Are you after a DF kit specifically or would you consider other kits? I
> can only help you with this kit:
> 
> http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/scope3.html
> 
> I provide as much or as little as people want up to a complete kit
> including acrylic case and CRT. Or you choose a CRT and I will customise
> the kit to work with it (if compatible). Contact me via the web site if
> you are interested.
> 
> The technology is the same as David pioneered - Lissajous based circle
> drawing.
> 
> Grahame

Hi Grahame,

I want to buy a fully assembled and tested clock.  I prefer the short
persistence green phosphor.  How long do you think it will be until
these are available?  Estimated price?  Does it come standard with the
GPS module or is that an accessory?

Thanks
John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] circuit board creation.....

[NeonJohn]

Hi Kerry,

If you just want something close to 67.5 volts, snap 8 9 volt batteries
together.  That will produce 72 volts open circuit but will pull down a
few volts under load.

If you plan on using it a lot, then you might want to use these batteries

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M2Z442X/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

There are two kinds of lithium "9 volt" lithium batteries.  Those that
use 2 conventional LiPoly cells and only produce about 7.2 volts, and
these that use 3 LiPo cells and produce almost exactly 9 volts.  The
beauty of these cells is that they are recharged using a micro-USB
cable.  An excellent use for all those old phone chargers laying around.

Back to your question.  That is a bad circuit.  He's running at low
frequency so the transformer is huge.  It is not resonant so the output
is a square wave.  Lots of harmonics.  They'll go through the bridge and
appear on the output.  He has no filtering to speak of.

I'd use a resonant Royer oscillator running at high frequency.  This is
the basis of our company's induction heaters.  Here is the open source one.

http://www.neon-john.com/Induction/Roy/Roy.htm

This one runs at about 80kHz.  It outputs a sine wave so there is little
output noise.  The transformer will be tiny at the power you'll be
operating.  You will wind the transformer on a bobbin core.  The primary
will be something like 5 turns of Litz wire and the secondary will be
something like 9 or 10 turns.

The circuit board package to use these days is KiCAD.  It's a
professional quality program, is FOSS and it's development is mostly
funded by CERN.  Eagle used to be the go-to package but since they
started renting their software and not selling it, most of the open
hardware community had moved to KiCAD.

Going from schematic to PCB is fairly straightforward.  Each part must
have an outline for the schematic and a footprint of the physical part
for the PCB layout.

You would draw the schematic editor and do a design rule check.  This
catches things such as lines close but not quite connected to a pin.

When you're finished with the schematic, you fire up the PCB layout
portion of the program.  All your components' footprints will be there
in one blob.  You move them around the board, the dimensions of which
you've already specified.  The components are connected by "air wires".
The layout is usually quite similar to the schematic layout.  You route
traces between components, switching from front to back as needed until
all the air wires are gone.

You'll run another design rule check which will catch things like
crossed traces, connections not quite made, traces too close together
and things like that.

When you're satisfied with the layout, have the program produce Gerber
files.  These files contain the actual photoplotter instructions and are
what you send to the board house.  You MUST inspect these closely with a
Gerber visualization program.  You will frequently find mistakes that
all the preceding steps did not.  In the Linux world where I work, the
program gerbv is the best.  No idea about other environments.

The last step is to prepare a specification document.  It will specify
the board size, what kind of board to use, how thick the copper should
be in ounces, etc.  And most importantly what each Gerber file is.
Incredibly there is no convention on naming files.  Most folks follow
the Pcad (very expensive board layout program) protocol.

Finally, you bundle the Gerbers up with the specification file into a
zip.  After having made arrangements with the board house you select,
you email that zip (or sometimes upload onto a web page designated for
that purpose), pay them and wait for your boards to return.

Before you start any board work, I strongly suggest you download LTSpice
and simulate your circuit.  LTSpice is free and it works very well,
especially if you enter all the characteristics for each part.  ESR for
capacitors, for example.

I hope that's enough to get you started.

John


On 05/07/2018 08:27 AM, 'orange_glow_fan' via neonixie-l wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> 
>  First off let me say that I know little about porting a circuit design 
> into a workable PC board  design.. I could probably do this using perf 
> board and point to point wiring, but I'd prefer something more reliable 
> (and probably better looking)
> 
> Having said that, can someone tell me how to do exactly that with the 
> pictured circuit?? This needs to be as compact as possible. 
> 
> It is a replacement for the old 67 1/2 volt 'B' battery used in vintage 
> AC/DC tube radios. The transformer is pricey too!  I've tried contacting 
> the author, but there has been no response. The article was written back in 
> 2003, by a radio collector in Australia and I'm not sure if he still 
> 'around' 
> 
> Thanks for your input..
> 
> Kerry
> 
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- emai

Re: [neonixie-l] Apollo-era NASA computers in dead engineer’s basement

[NeonJohn]

On 07/15/2017 09:09 PM, Jon D. wrote:
>
> Just saw this article, so I thought I'd share.  The basement 'scrap' 
> included Nixie tube displays.

Thanks Jon.

Now check out the connecting link about the Apollo 1 fire

https://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2017/01/apollo-1-fire-investigation/

Guss Grissom was my great uncle from my mother's side.  As a young child
I met him several times at family reunions.  And I got some unbelievable
behind-the-scenes tours.

John Grissom DeArmond.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Technical question on Fets and MOSFETS...

[NeonJohn]

With FETs, it works naturally, as the conduction channel has a positive
temco.  The cooler FET has the lowest resistance and so it takes more of
the load until it reaches the temperature of the others.

IGBTs have a negative tempco EXCEPT for those designed to be run in
parallel.  In my highest power induction heaters, I have three 900 volt,
30 amp IGBTs in parallel on each side of the Royer oscillator.  One key
to making it work is to have the devices tightly thermally coupled so
they all see the same temperature.

John


On 04/23/2017 06:30 PM, 'orange_glow_fan' via neonixie-l wrote:
>  In an effort to increase current handling abilities, a 'friend' suggest 
> that one could connect a fet or mosfet in parallel with another identical 
> device
> 
> I tried to wrap my mind around that, but my limited knowledge pretty  much 
> put a stop to that...In theory it sounds possible, yet somehow it seems 
> wrong...
> 
> 
> How's that for indecision
> 
> What say you?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kerry
> 
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[NeonJohn]

On 04/20/2017 05:28 AM, Aiden Koh wrote:

> I'm sorry if I sound unsubstantial; I had once contacted stem base
> suppliers in china, and they do say that they have the product line ISO
> 9001 certified, but I have a hunch that they subcontract the orders to
> another workshop. The US manufacturers carry the parts needed, and they're
> more reputable too. High-quality parts would equate to less of a headache.

Owning a small manufacturing company, I can comment with some authority.
 I think that you're hopelessly naive about this proposal.  Do you have
at least $1 million at your disposal?  That would probably pay for a
minimally automated plant.  And maybe another $mil for R&D.

About buying American.  Dream on.  Very few electronics products are
made in America anymore.  It's almost all done in China, Taiwan and a
few other far eastern companies.  All the US companies do is mark up the
product. A lot.  If you do find a piece manufactured in the US, you have
a fiduciary duty to your investors and stockholders to investigate far
eastern manufacture of the part.

Example: A Meanwell 15 volt 15 watt power supply.  About $25 from
Mouser.  Less than $3 directly from Meanwell when I buy 100 pieces.
Cheaper when I buy more.

Another example.  Our induction heater uses a large buck converter
toroidial inductor.  From Magnetisc, low quantity price was $35.
Somewhere around $20 in quantity 100.  We found out who their Chinese
manufacturer is.  $2, quantity 200.

The next thing you need to know about the Chinese is that they will tell
you anything you want to hear.  It's not lying in their culture.  It is
culturally very difficult to say "no".  We address that problem by
having an agent in China.  He's a Chinese citizen with an American
technical education who speaks flawless English. He actually visits the
factories and verifies that we are getting what we spec'd and what we
paid for.

Which brings up the next thing about China.  It is ALWAYS cash up front.
 Most manufacturers will accept an escrow service which gives us some
reassurance but each order is still somewhat of a shot in the dark.

Now a comment on the tube itself.  I worked for a couple of years for a
man named Ed Kay, retired Chief Engineer at Tung Sol's tube
manufacturing plant in NJ.  Being an amateur glass blower and interested
in vacuum tubes, I relentlessly picked his brain.

There were and are SO many little trade secrets that go into designing
and building a successful tube.  Take electrode treatment, for example.
You can't just have them made and use them in a tube.  There are several
chemical and mechanical treatments that must be performed first.  For
Nixie tube, Dalbor knows but he's not telling.  The point of this
paragraph is to try to convey to you just how much R&D you have ahead of
you before you design your piece of manufacturing equipment.

I think that a $50 tube might be possible IFF you have very deep pockets
backing you.  No way at the price you quoted.

And we still haven't addressed the potential market for Nixie tubes at
any price.  I don't think it's there.  We Nixieonians constitute a tiny
market.  What product do you see that might consume say, 100,000 tubes a
year?

John

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Video Tipps for Nixie Clocks...

[NeonJohn]

On 04/11/2017 06:14 PM, gregebert wrote:
> I encountered problems with light reflecting off the nixies, and it also 
> washed-out the glow, so I thought the solution was to photograph in 
> low-light. Attempting low-light photography led to annoying reflections of 
> light from adjacent tubes. The picture I use for my icon from my big clock* 
> looks* horrible, but the clock itself looks amazing. After several 
> different exposure settings and lighting conditions I was not able to get a 
> 'perfect shot'. I concluded I would need to use photoshop, etc to get 
> something acceptable.

This is the pro solution

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dulling-Spray-11-Ounces/24419272?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1453&adid=227025898045&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=52337137695&wl4=pla-79434469695&wl5=21160&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112550049&wl11=online&wl12=24419272&wl13=&veh=sem

This is an aerosol spray that applies a slightly dulling coating to the
object.  It doesn't completely dry and is easily wiped off with a cloth
afterwards or for inaccessible places, blown off with an air hose.

A second option is to use a polarizing filter.  If you plan on using
your auto-focus then a less effective circular polarized filter must be
used.  If you can manually focus then a linear polarized filter will
provide a much greater extinction ratio (ratio of light passed to light
blocked).

Glare is always polarized.  You might find a circular filter does an
adequate job.  If not, focus is achieved and then a linear polarized
filter is held in front of the lens and rotated until the glare disappears.

Hand-holding the filter can be done but becomes tedious if many photos
are to be shot.  I haven't found a ready-made holder for point and shoot
cameras so I made my own.

It's very simple - a length of aluminum flat stock drilled and tapped
for 1/4-20 on one end.  This goes between the tripod and camera and
generally requires an extended tripod bolt.

The other end is bent up 90 deg and trimmed until it just barely
disappears from the camera's image.  It should almost touch the lens
when the lens is fully extended.

Here's the trick.  Choose a filter diameter large enough to cover the
whole image when zoomed in and out.  Then buy a haze filter of the same
diameter.  That's about the cheapest thing you can get in that diameter.

Break the glass out of the haze filter.  What's left is a ring with the
proper male and female threads. This ring is epoxied to the aluminum
after the stock is curved with a dremel tool to fit the OD of the haze
filter.

Now simply thread the polarizing filter into the mount and it's done.
You can rotate the filter on its threads to see if the effects change.

One final comment.  I may be old-fashioned but anything that can be
fixed in a photo editor is a mistake made by the photographer.  I'm not
talking about the high end stuff such as slenderizing a model's arms or
giving her bigger boobs.  I'm talking about stuff that pre-digital would
be considered bad technique.

Get it right in the original exposure and photo editing won't be
necessary except for cropping.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 04/06/2017 11:20 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote:
>> This cute little one just showed up in my in-box - $40:  
>> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C7061 
>> 
> They have this kit on sale for $10 now:

No GM tube and only 400 volts which limits its use to a limited
selection of mostly Russian low sensitivity tubes.  IMO, not a good deal
even at $10.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/16/2017 12:42 AM, 'threeneurons' via neonixie-l wrote:

> A few years back, Westdave had just visited his cardiologist, the day 
> before the TRW swapmeet. He had an exam, that required ingesting some 
> radioactive "juice". At the swapmeet, a vendor was selling a working geiger 
> counter. Dave lit up that puppy.

A couple of years ago I had a nuclear stress test run.  They injected
the Tc-99 and then told me to go eat a good greasy lunch to help
distribute it.  I had brought my Victoreen RO-3 ion chamber exposure
meter with me.  I have a selfie of me holding the meter to my chest
where I was emanating 30 mR/hr.  Hot stuff, I was.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/15/2017 09:42 AM, Mark Moulding wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 10:02:40 AM UTC-7, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>
>> What is your opinion of this one: 
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Open-source-Geiger-counter-kit-nuclear-radiation-GM-detector-tube-radiation-/161447070168?hash=item2596fec9d8:g:gFMAAOSwcu5UN4Pk

Glass GM tube equals low sensitivity.  The thick walls, necessary to
withstand the partial vacuum, will stop most betas, what you're likely
to encounter in the environment.  Gamma ray sensitivity will be low but
will be enough to detect the activity from a lantern mantle.

To measure exposure, what you're really interested in, one needs a large
volume energy compensated geiger tube or an ion chamber.  An ion chamber
is trivially easy to make - for years Victoreen sold an exposure meter,
the chamber of which was a styrofoam cup coated on the inside with
aquadag to make it conductive.

A smoke detector is an ion chamber.  A source is contained within the
chamber.  combustion products absorb ionizations, reducing the ion
current and triggering the alarm.

If you're interested in hearing clicks, the tube used in the old CDV-700
civil defense geiger counters will work. Very thin wall metal tubes.
Best is a pancake probe.  About $140 from Ludlum and others.

Look guys, this fear of environmental radiation is getting far out of
control.  There is ZERO risk from anything radioactive in the
environment unless you happen to eat the hand off a radium watch dial or
an Am-241 source out of a smoke detector.  Even then the risk would be
so low as impossible to quantify.

The old and discredited linear, no threshold theory that says that any
amount of radiation is harmful is perpetuated because it has been
monetized.  Lots of people are making lots of money "remediating" low
level radioactivity.

The evidence is overwhelming that low level radiation is actually
beneficial.  No different than chemical toxins such as arsenic or zinc
or chlorine.  Vital trace elements but toxic in higher concentrations.
This theory is called "radiation hormesis".

Here is an article I wrote during the Fukushima accident that explains
the difference.

http://www.johndearmond.com/2011/04/23/fukushima-the-high-cost-of-the-lnt-theory/

A Geiger counter is a fun thing to have around if it is sensitive enough
to detect anything.  I carry a pocket unit with the pancake probe's
window facing outward any time I go yard saleing, attend auctions or go
to antique stores.  I collect radioactive materials and I've hit some
bonanzas

I especially like to lay the counter on top of some radiophobe's granite
countertop.  The unit goes off-scale on the X1 scale.  Granite is quite
hot on the environmental activity scale.

As I demonstrate on my nuke page that I already posted, so is wood ash
from the fireplace.

We need to nip this radiophobia in the bud and worry about something
that matters.  Like how many Nixie tubes Dalbor can make :-)

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] checking for radiation Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

Be aware that a peanut tube that size will be very insensitive to
environmental radiation.  I used a tube that size in my area radiation
monitors designed to be mounted in high radiation areas.

John


On 03/15/2017 08:42 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote:
>> Electronic Goldmine has lots of Geiger Counter kits and G-M tubes
>> for sale,  Join their e-mail list and you get notification of new
>> products and sales - at least monthly you will find a deal on
>> radiation detecting kits or parts.
>> 
> Amusingly, just today, they put a pocket size Geiger counter on sale
> for $40 (down from $130), complete with GM tube.
> 
> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C7061
> 
> 
> - John
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/14/2017 02:01 PM, gregebert wrote:
> Anyone know how the radiation "hazard" of nixies compares to Xrays produced 
> by color televisions/computer monitors that used CRTs ?
> 

None vs none.  As soon as the low level X-rays from TV sets were
discovered and became and issue (two different events), several things
happened

1) All new CRTs had their faceplates made out of leaded glass.
2) the damper tube was made from leaded glass*
3) hard high voltage limiting was instituted.

* A properly made damper tube would not generate X-rays regardless of
the voltage applied.  The plate cylinder had to be a little bit out of
concentricity with the filament to produce X-rays.

There was an Amateur Scientist article about how to use a damper tube
and a home-made Odin coil to make an X-ray source.  Several fuzzy X-rays
were published.

I made the Odin coil but I could not get any X-rays.  My tube was in
good alignment.  It took prowling through the inventory of the two TV
repair shops that tolerated this nerdy kid before I found one that worked.

The results were still lousy because the X-rays emanated from all over
the anode's surface.  The optical equivalent is trying to take a
shadowgraph photo of an object using and extremely point source LED vs
using light from a recessed fluorescent fixture.  Real X-ray tubes use
several tricks to make as close to a point source as possible.

Anyway, back to CRTs.  I have a Victoreen survey meter designed
specifically for the CRT industry.  It uses an ion chamber with a
super-thin mylar window and is calibrated microR/Hr.  I have never
detected anything above background from any of the TVs or CRT monitors
I've owned.

John



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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/14/2017 05:05 AM, Luca Bertagnolio wrote:

>  Welcome to the fascinating world of radiation, known by little and
> feared by most, for no good reason. More people have been killed by
> fear of radiation than by radiation itself.

This is literally true.  Several people were killed fleeing Three Mile
Island when the accident was wholly contained on-side and no off-site
radiation was measured.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

I didn't include the mantles because most people don't have them.  A lot
of people use the salt substitute.

The Coleman replacement mantles sold by Century and made in India are
still quite hot.

http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/century_mantle.jpg

Last time I checked, WalMart still carried them.

John


On 03/13/2017 10:37 AM, GastonP wrote:
> Well, I have bought a couple of old gas lamp mantle spares, the ones that 
> shine *very* bright, and use them to check my geiger counters too. They use 
> thorium to give out that extra bright. New ones are made with another 
> process, not so bright but with no radioactive substances either. As far as 
> I know some chinese vendors still sell the thorium covered ones.
> I would tend to think that this would be hotter (radiation wise, of course) 
> than low sodium salt. At least that's what I measured at home.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/12/2017 03:41 PM, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F. wrote:

> It has a half life of nearly 11 Years, this means if the tube is 30 years 
> old, today only 12.5% of its radioactive gas is still active. 
> The only way Kr-85 *could* affect your health is when you drop the tube and 
> inhale the gas. 

Nixie tubes contained about 1uCi of Kr-85 when new.  That quantity of
gas absolutely positively without question or doubt poses NO, NONE,
NADDA risk to humans.

I'm a retired nuclear engineer whose specialty is dealing with very
large amounts of radiation and radioactive materials.  Like 10,000 Ci of
Kr-85 at a time.  So I have some experience in this area.

BTW, for anyone making glow discharge tubes (Dalbor!), custom gas
mixtures including Kr-85 as a component can be purchased here

http://www.specgasinc.com/

They're great to deal with and don't mind dealing with small customers.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/12/2017 06:16 PM, Charles MacDonald wrote:

> But how many Bananas and Brazil nuts do you keep around.  those are the
> real home based radiation sources...
> 
> 
http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/Salt_substitute.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/K40_on_geiger_counter.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/Nuke_Index.htm

The K-40 in salt substitute is by far the hottest thing in an ordinary
house.

John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Why Mercury?

[NeonJohn]

On 03/08/2017 08:15 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:
> OK, but how does it reduce sputtering?
> 

Two mechanisms.  First, its ionization potential is lower than neon so
the atoms have less voltage to accelerate them.  Second and most
importantly, the mercury ion is MUCH heavier than neon and so
accelerates to a much lower speed across the potential than neon.  A
third effect is that the cathodes are coated with a thin film of mercury
so many of the collisions are mercury on mercury.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Rookie question about driving VFD filament

[NeonJohn]

No, the filaments are tungsten and tungsten has a huge positive
temperature coefficient.  The ideal drive would be a constant current,
voltage capped source.  A resistor approximates that quite well.

I would not connect them in series for the same reason it's a bad idea
to connect vacuum tube filaments in series.  I have an art deco tube
radio that still works that has the tubes in series.  Upon turn-on, one
filament goes incandescent and then dims down to normal as the other
tubes warm up.  Needless to say, that tube doesn't last very long.

John


On 03/04/2017 03:34 AM, ten kowal wrote:
> Do I understand correctly, that they work just like a resistor?
> My plan is to drive IV-6 filament by directly PWMing it from 5V or 3,3V. It 
> normally requires 50mA@1V, so if the filament works just like a resistor, 
> can I PWM it with low duty cycle (4% on 5V and 9,2% on 3,3V)? Of course PWM 
> frequency will be something above 25kHz to avoid any noise. Will the wire 
> burn from short current spikes?
> I don't like the idea of adding a dropper resistor. on 5V I will be losing 
> 4x the power needed to warm the cathodes!
> Another idea is to connect 4 tubes in series. Of course it will make a 
> voltage gradient across tubes, but I plan to drive anodes at 50+V, so maybe 
> it won't be visible - does anybody have any experience with driving 
> filaments like that?
> A step-down converter sounds good, but I will be very space limited in this 
> project.
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Some guy offering Rodan CD47 tubes

[NeonJohn]

You could use the modern version of the old edge-lit displays.  A stack
of plex sheets engraved with the numbers and edge-lit with LEDs.  That
would be even more authentic because the numbers would approach and
recede as they change values, just like in a real Nixie.

John


On 02/23/2017 05:10 PM, gregebert wrote:
> One of the (many) projects in the back of my head is a 'beer bottle nixie 
> tube', basically cutting-off the top of a brown beer bottle and inserting a 
> PC board with orange LED's arranged like nixie numerals. The tinted glass 
> would obscure most of the PC board, and blur the LEDs so it would have a 
> fighting chance to look nixie-ish.
> 
> Trust me, I could make a decent enough clock with 6 of these without 
> spending 15,000 euros
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: In18 displaying cathode poisoning after 1000hrs or less.

[NeonJohn]

On 02/20/2017 11:44 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote:

> Both effects happen: the neon and argon leak out because even though
> they're at lower than atmospheric pressure, they're higher than the
> partial pressure of neon and argon outside the tube.  And, more
> intuitively, oxygen and nitrogen leak in.  Both of these effects are
> detrimental to the tube's operation.

Yes.  The uber-killer, though is helium.  It goes through soft glass
like water through a paper towel.

At one nuclear plant where I was setting up their radiation monitoring
system, I suddenly started losing photomultiplier tubes in liquid and
gas monitors.  I traced the problem down to another contractor doing
helium leak tests on the monitors (why? they operate at atmospheric
pressure) and instead of the normal procedure of hooking the mass spec
up to the detector and then flooding the monitor with helium, they were
pressurizing the detection chamber and sniffing with a probe connected
to the leak detector.

I'm talking about exposure of just a few minutes.

> 
> Old-style frit (or "soft") seal helium-neon laser tubes have a
> similar problem.  The helium (a very slippery gas) would slowly leak
> out through the seals, so although the tube would still ionize and
> glow, laser action wasn't supported.  The cure is surprisingly
> simple: "soak" the tubes in a trash bag with helium in it at
> atmospheric pressure.  With the reversed (and much larger) partial
> pressure difference of helium, a few years' loss could be restored in
> a few days.  The normal setup was to leave the tube running and
> monitor the laser output.  It would slowly rise, then begin to drop
> when the helium pressure began to get too great.  Take the tube out
> of the bag then and you could get a few more years out of it.

I've done several of those.  Amazing how fast the He goes back in.

> 
> In short, you don't need a hyperbaric chamber, atmospheric pressure
> will probably suffice, but you'd want to have the proper ratio of
> gases.

Just heat-seal the tubes in metallized mylar bags, the same stuff that
modern helium balloons are made of.

And keep helium out of your house!  No helium balloons or whatnot.

I'll bet that if one did a spectroscopic analysis on the light coming
from a weak tube, one would see He in the mix.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: TI Launchpad free shipping

[NeonJohn]

SUPER!!!

Reaffirms my decision to change from Microchip/Atmel to TI.

Way to go TI!


On 01/21/2017 06:58 AM, Nick wrote:
> Just to add, as of now, TI are no longer charging for any of their 
> development environments, including all compilers etc. i.e. Full function 
> license keys for all previous and current versions are now available for 
> free.
> 
> If you have CCS 4, 5 or 6 installed, you can now download a free full 
> license file from 
> http://software-dl.ti.com/ccs/esd/licenseadmin/ccslicense.zip . The new 
> version, CCS 7, has a full license by default.
> 
> See http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Download_CCS for the V7 (and 
> all previous versions) download.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Nick
> 
> On Monday, 16 January 2017 18:07:52 UTC+4, MrStevenUND wrote:
>>
>> MSP430's have been discussed several times on this forum, I received an 
>> email saying the Launchpad and BoosterPack modules (TI 430's equivalent to 
>> Arduino and shields) are available with free standard shipping from the TI 
>> store through January 22.  https://store.ti.com
>>
>> No affiliation, I just use them at work and like them a lot.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve
>>
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Small run fabrication

[NeonJohn]

On 01/11/2017 10:15 PM, Nicholas Stock wrote:
> For simple 2D CAD you could try FreeCAD which is OK,
> but not great. Inkscape is a good tool for 2D drawing but the learning
> curve is steep (although there are plenty of online resources to help if
> you have patience). 

I use InkScape a lot (Linux) but it's not a CAD package, it's a drawing
program a la CorelDraw.  The difference is in the amount of effort
required to do precision drawings.  That is, drawings that will be fed
into CAM of some sort.

I and my company are firmly committed to FOSS but after a couple of
years of struggling with buggy software, software that would only run in
Windows in a VM and so on, I decided to violate my principles and use a
commercial closed source package called Qcad.

With Qcad one can either key in the coordinates of objects or draw them
close and later fill in the precise dimensions in a "properties" box.

It takes a little while to learn the ways of Qcad but once the light
bulb goes on, it is very fast to work with.  It has up to 4 "view ports"
and will take these and do an isometric projection.  Not quite 3D but close.

The thing that finally tipped me over to this closed source package is
that its native file format is DXF.  No more exporting to DXF.  When the
drawing is saved it is in DXF.  It does several other formats including
AutoCAD .dwg and .pdf.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Small run fabrication

[NeonJohn]

On 01/11/2017 01:33 PM, Paul Andrews wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to make a case for one of my clocks and started looking at 
> online fabrication services such as big blue saw. I am basically looking at 
> designing and fabricating one-offs of some simple acrylic pieces (with cut 
> outs/holes etc.). I was wondering if anyone can recommend a service that is 
> reasonable for one-off parts like this? 

You might take a look at frontpanelexpress.com.  They supply a sorta-CAD
package that you have to submit your design to them with.  It prices out
the cost of the panel as you add things to it.  The software is so
limited, however, that I end up drawing the features in a real CAD
program, exporting the object to DXF and importing it into the Front
Panel program.

I just had a panel made for our new induction heater which fits in a
Pelican knockoff case.  The panel is 200 X 300mm.  IT has 2 large
rectangular cut-outs and a couple of small ones.  a couple dozen drilled
holes and several DXF objects.  Their CAD program calls out each item
and puts a price on it.  A drilled hole is 2.5 cents, for example.

This panel is 2.5mm aluminum, anodized red and the legends and logos are
silkscreened white.  Cost was $189 single piece.  Drops rapidly with
quantity.  Quantity 5 is about $150.

We're shopping the piece around to Chinese manufacturers for volume
production but I can live with their price until sales justify a large run.

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
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[neonixie-l] Some eye candy

[NeonJohn]

http://strattman.com/#!

John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Faulty Atmel Microcontrollers from Aliexpress

[NeonJohn]

No idea, though I can't imagine them changing their entire work flow and
methods just like that.  The blank silicon may come from MicroChip now.

John


On 12/18/2016 11:34 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote:
>> Atmel is what is known as a foundryless manufacturer.  That is they have
>> hunks of silicon logic manufactured by someone else.
> 
> Is that still true, after their acquisition by Microchip?
> 
> - John
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Faulty Atmel Microcontrollers from Aliexpress

[NeonJohn]

On 12/17/2016 03:26 PM, Luka C wrote:
> I'm writing this to warn others or ask if anyone had similar experiences. I 
> purchased a lot of Atmel ATMEGA328P microcontrollers from a seller on 
> Aliexpress. 

Microprocessors are one component that you absolutely MUST buy from an
authorized distributor or directly from the manufacturer.  ESPECIALLY
Atmel.  Instead of trashing chips that fail testing, Atmel apparently
allows them to leave the factory to be sold by unscrupulous resellers.

Atmel is what is known as a foundryless manufacturer.  That is they have
hunks of silicon logic manufactured by someone else.  They then load
microcode into the chip to turn it into an ATMEGA or whatever.

The nature of this process is that the chip can fail to execute certain
instructions, fail to drive pins while the rest of the chip works.

There can also be parts of the chip that won't run at the specified
speed.  I just ran into that with the AT90PWM316.  My (now ex) partner
got a "great deal" on some parts through OctoPart.  At the programming
frequency loaded into Studio, the chip reported the signature of an
unrelated chip.  As a last ditch hunch, I slowed the programming
frequency down to about 50kHz.  IT then reported the correct signature
and accepted my program, though it took several minutes instead of seconds.

Since they abruptly and without warning EOL'd that chip shortly after
the MicroChip takeover and the going rate for remaining stock is about
$15 (was $4), I'm going to have to try to use them.

I recently ran into a similar problem, this time with parts from Mouser.
 Suddenly with this lot of chips, the "heat" button (induction heater)
works only sometimes and about half the time the unit comes up at full
power instead of the set power level.  I haven't yet pin-pointed what is
going wrong so once we use up the OctoPart parts, we'll be down for the
count until I can redesign the board to use a different processor.  I'm
fed up with Atmel.

After someone mentioned it here earlier, I took at look at the TI MXP432
ARM processor.  About the same price but vastly more powerful.  The TI
LaunchPad (think Arduino) is only 12 dollars and is set up like the
Arduino to accept daughterboards.  Ti's support has been great.  This is
the chip I'm converting to.

Back to the issue at hand, never ever ever buy complex parts whose
origin cannot be traced back to the manufacturer and even then expect
problems.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] TI MSP430 promo...

[NeonJohn]

I'm just getting started with the TMS432 Launchpad and Ubuntu Mint.
Their heart still really isn't into Linux but it's a LOT better than a
year ago when I work with a C2000 launchpad.

The install script treats Mint 16.04.1 as plain Ubuntu 16.04.

It has to be installed as root.  I thought the installer was hanging
until I left it hung and went into the lab.  About an hour and a half
later, the install started.  I posted to the support board.  A TI
employee got back to me within hours telling me they'd found a spot
where the script hangs for lack of a non-existent file.  The fix will be
out in the December release.

The CCS is now highly cloud-centric, something I cannot stand since I'm
on Hughsnet.  The various packages can be downloaded to the local system
but again CCS has to be run as root.  Again there are long delays as
something hung up times out.  I will have to say that TI is being
extremely responsive to my problems.

You might want to look at this page for more helpful info.

https://e2e.ti.com/support/development_tools/code_composer_studio/f/81/p/540011/1976051#1976051

The USB is solid as a rock.  Mine is a pathological situation with 6
external drives plugged into the computer's built-in ports and a 13 port
USB expander for a bunch more stuff.  CCS sorts right through all that
stuff and finds the board almost immediately.

I can do code development and flash the board no problem.  my problems
have centered around installing pre-written packages.  I need their
little RTOS and the SD driver packages.

I really appreciate TI's responsiveness, as I'm in somewhat of a jam.
Atmel abruptly and with no warning EOL'd the processor in our main
induction heater.  And they jacked the price of the remaining stock from
less than $3 to over $14!  So I gotta get a new board designed and my
code ported before we run out of stock.

John


On 11/29/2016 12:48 PM, gregebert wrote:
> Has anyone used this launchpad with Linux ? I'm willing to give it another 
> try considering the low price, and the larger memory.
> 
> I bought one of the original Launchpads about 3 years ago and was 
> disappointed that the USB interface was flaky w/ Linux, so it's been 
> gathering dust in my junkbox ever since.
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] NOT another nixie clock!

[NeonJohn]

The C2000 LaunchPad works fine under Linux.  Since it looks like the
MPS432 uses the same interface, I should think it would work as well.  I
use gtkterm as my terminal program.

Like you, here the W word is a profanity, never to be uttered out loud.

John


On 10/09/2016 11:06 AM, gregebert wrote:
> I gave the MSP432 (Launchpad)  a try when it first came out; must have been 
> about 3 years ago. I was unable to get reliable communication (characters 
> randomly got dropped) thru the USB port on a Linux platform, so I put it in 
> the junkbox. The $12 price was irresistible.
> 
> If any of you are currently using the launchapd with Linux and see reliable 
> operation, please post and I'll buy another one with my next online order 
> and give it another try. I'm assuming I have an earlier version that was 
> not fully debugged on Linux; BTW, running on WIndoze is not an option I 
> would ever consider.
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] NOT another nixie clock!

[NeonJohn]

I don't understand why these TI chips and their Launchpads aren't
getting more maker attention.  Based on your recommendation, John, I
just ordered a Launchpad for this processor from Mouser.  $12.  I spent
last night reading the spec sheet.  Wow!  IT'll do just about everything
I need for my induction heaters and then some.  Lots of I/O pins.  fast
enough to implement in software some stuff I've been doing in hardware.

I've previously been evaluating the TI C2000 LaunchPad ($17).  A fine
processor but deficient in I/O pins.  Still more than adequate for most
projects.

Oh, did I mention that the GUI dev environment is available natively for
Linux?  We're a Linux shop and it really ripped me to have to keep a
windoze VM to run Atmel's environment.

About 500 milliseconds after MicroChip digested Atmel, Atmel EOL'd the
chip I use in my main induction heater so I'm having to find a
replacement.  This chip is a couple of bux more but well worth the money.

Good stuff
John


On 10/08/2016 08:30 PM, John Rehwinkel wrote:
>> Upvote here for the TI MSP43x series.
>> 
>> The new ones, the 432s, run at 13 microamp per MHz. Very easy to
>> programming (C++) using free IDE. Development boards (aka
>> "launchpads") cost just a few USD. Lovely chips...
> 
> The "Spy-bi-wire" programming only uses two signals (and pins) and
> ability to run without a crystal makes it possible to breadboard the
> DIP ones easily.  For people who prefer the Arduino environment,
> there's an MSP430 port called "Energia".  And the Launchpad
> development boards Nick mentioned come with an on-board programming
> interface you can use to program other chips.  The programming/debug
> interface runs through a block of jumpers where you can tap it off
> for your own uses.  There's a family of add-on daughterboards as
> well.
> 
> - John
> 

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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[neonixie-l] Pardon the interruption

[NeonJohn]

Will the guy who made the black magic eyes tee shirts please contact me?
 j...@neon-john.com?  I tossed the envelope and then realized I didn't
know who to pay.

Thanks
John

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
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Re: [neonixie-l] How hot should a mosfet get?

[NeonJohn]

I can't speak for low power FETs.  The smallest thing I deal with is a
100 watt fan speed controller.  I have a box under my lab bench that I
call my "L'il box of larnin' " that contains all the FETs and IGBTs that
have failed during development over the past 10 years or so.  A thousand
at least.  There's not a single device in that box that failed open.

John


On 09/28/2016 02:38 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
> I thought FETs always fail open, and it was SCRs which always fail shorted.
> 
> -Dan
> 
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2016, NeonJohn wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 09/28/2016 12:40 PM, Trumpeter wrote:
>>> Thank you for this detailed explaination, even though some is over my
>>> head.
>>>
>>> Should I check the resistance between the two joined pins and one of
>>> the two pins on the other side?  Could the over heating mosfet damage
>>> other components or will it simply fail?
>>
>> The problem is that power FETS *ALWAYS* fail shorted.  So you need to
>> plan your circuit and any protection for that eventuality.  I'd put a
>> PolyFuse in the circuit supplying the circuit.  That'll protect your
>> transformer and power source when the FET lets its smoke out.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> John DeArmond
>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
>> http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
>> http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
>> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
>> PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77
>>
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>>
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>>
> 

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
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http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] How hot should a mosfet get?

[NeonJohn]

You might want to look at some newer parts.  I'm constantly getting
announcements from IR and IXYS about their 60 volt parts that go as low
as 10 milliohms.

John


On 09/28/2016 01:30 PM, Trumpeter wrote:
> It's an IRFD220 looks like it's resistance is .8 ohms. 
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] How hot should a mosfet get?

[NeonJohn]

On 09/28/2016 12:40 PM, Trumpeter wrote:
> Thank you for this detailed explaination, even though some is over my
> head.
> 
> Should I check the resistance between the two joined pins and one of
> the two pins on the other side?  Could the over heating mosfet damage
> other components or will it simply fail? 

The problem is that power FETS *ALWAYS* fail shorted.  So you need to
plan your circuit and any protection for that eventuality.  I'd put a
PolyFuse in the circuit supplying the circuit.  That'll protect your
transformer and power source when the FET lets its smoke out.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] How hot should a mosfet get?

[NeonJohn]

On 09/28/2016 12:03 PM, Trumpeter wrote:
> The one on my newly built kit gets pretty warm. Normal? I'm not an ee
> so go easy on me :)
> 

It depends.  (always a good answer. :-)  My rule of thumb is to keep the
maximum junction temperature somewhere between two thirds and three
quarters of the data sheet's absolute max.  If you know the operating
condition then you can push closer to the max.  But for our induction
heaters, for example, which might be operated in 100 deg ambient and
bright sun, I set the protective circuitry to around two thirds.

You must calculate backwards from the chip, through the substrate/chip
junction, through the substrate (package) to the heat sink and from the
heat sink to air.  If you use an insulator between the device and heat
sink then you have two more junctions to account for.

Calculating the heat flow can be tedious so I've attached a spreadsheet
that automates all that tedium.

John



-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Thermal_resistance.ods
Description: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.spreadsheet

Re: [neonixie-l] Neon Signs

[NeonJohn]

On 05/13/2016 01:57 PM, gregebert wrote:

> NEVER use a microwave oven transformer; they are deadly because there is no 
> current-limiting, and their voltage is probably too low anyways.

A MOT actually IS currently limited using the same stray flux technology
as neon transformers.  If you look at a MOT, you'll see the center leg
has an air gap just like NST.  The dangerous part is that they current
limit at several AMPS at about 2kV.  Very deadly.

But very handy too.  You can saw the secondary off, put a few turns of
welding cable in its place, add accessories and have a mighty fine spot
welder.  The stray flux limits the current so you don't blow a breaker
with the short circuit during spot welding.

Take two and connect the primaries voltage additive, figure out the
correct number of turns and connect the primaries to 240 and you have a
fine welder.  You can vary the current by varying the air gap.  More gap
== more current.  I once made a handy little portable welder by cutting
about a half inch off the center leg and then arranging a lead screw and
nut that drove a wedge of laminated iron into the gap.  Retracted wedge
== more heat.

Because they're so handy, I grab every MOT I can get my hands on.

John



-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/BarbraJoanOriginals/neu <-- Fine Art Originals
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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon Signs

[NeonJohn]

Don't want to sound flippant but they're worth what you can sell 'em
for.  Watch ebay and see what free pieces of neon go for.  recognizable
shapes and letters will bring more.

FWIW, I get $30 for 9" plain block letters that I've collected.  More
for script, especially if it says something.  $20 for random designs and
logos or part of logos.  Note that these are my salvage prices and NOT
what I'd make them for.

John


On 05/12/2016 07:02 PM, Tom Harris wrote:
> Sorry if this is the wrong group. I have been offered a large quantity of
> vintage neon tubes from old signs, "burgers", "restaurant" "cafe", that
> sort of thing, together with straight & curved lines. How do I find out the
> value? I can test them.
> 
> Tom Harris 
> 
> 
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 

-- 
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http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Legal aspects of kits for sale?

[NeonJohn]

On 05/07/2016 07:19 PM, Instrument Resources of America wrote:
> I would say this. The assembler of the kit bears the responsibility of
> EXACTLY and CORRECTLY, assembling and using the kit per the instructions
> provided. HOWEVER, the DESIGN, ENGINEERING, QUALITY of the parts
> supplied, and the INSTRUCTIONS for ASSEMBLY and USE, rest with the KIT
> CREATOR. I'm not a lawyer, but have had to read a lot of legalize, and
> small print, during my 40 years of being self employed. This is open for
> further discussion. I would actually like to hear more.   Ira.

I'm exhausted from today's work and so don't feel like writing another
essay.  Instead I suggest you google the legal concept of "Joint and
Several Liability.)  In a nutshell, if you were involved in a jury-found
defective product, you may be sued.  Many times the juries are asked to
assign percent responsibility for the tort.  Their assignment of blame
is then used to assign liability for the award that follows.

John

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Legal aspects of kits for sale?

[NeonJohn]

On 05/06/2016 07:05 AM, Oscilloclock wrote:
> John, that's truly a great write-up, if not very scary.

Yeah.  If we spent any time in a civil court room we'd probably be
afraid to leave our houses.  My attitude is "damn the torpedos, full
speed ahead" with some mitigation strategies.
> 
> Regarding your liability insurance: Do they demand to see your
> product, go through its design documentation, or at least see testing
> evidence before offering the policy? Or if they do cover you with no
> questions asked, is there risk that they won't cover you in the end
> if they also believe you sold a defective product?

The $5M blanket insurance policy that I have is a PERSONAL liability
rider and not a product liability one.

Product liability is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.  My agent has told me
that for our Roy products at our anticipated sales volume for next year
AND if we got agency listing, the premium would be in the $30k/yr range.
 He also said to forget getting it on a non-listed product.  The
insurance companies rely on the listing companies to tear the product
down, analyze it for safety and destroy one or two.

So.  I've talked to ETL about having Roy listed.  The current model will
not pass because I did not observe sufficient clearance rules for high
voltage but I'm redesigning it for listing testing.

The ETL guy quoted me $11.5k and 3 units for the testing process.  Two
units would be tested to destruction.  Then there's the annual renewal
fee.  My memory is fogged there but I believe the quote was $2.5k.

But that's not all.  If I make ANY change to the listed unit, it has to
be evaluated again.  Depending on the change, probably not a full blown
listing test but some sort of exam.  I asked him whether, for example,
changing the case screws from Phillips head to hex head screws would
trigger the re-exam.  The answer was yes.

Then there's the 4 times a year random factory audit.  I don't recall
the price on that (my head was kinda spinning at that point). but it was
over a couple of kilobucks.

So to fully protect Tnduction from any liability from Roy, I'd spend
over $50k the first year and several $k each year following.

Now you know why people set up shell, valuless companies, have a product
manufactured in China, sell 'em quickly and shut down.

After my investigation, we had a board meeting and decided to "run
bare".  That is, no insurance but also no assets to ward off product
liability attorneys.

Our products are made by a contract manufacturer (AKA "box builder").
All the equipment and furnishing are leased.  Again there, there has to
be a diversity of sales or the court can rule it a sham to get out of
liability.  I got a fried who already leases equipment to take ownership
of our equipment and then lease it back to us.  The lease has to be at
"fair market value" or else it can be ruled a sham.

All the intellectual property is owned by one of the three core owners
and is licensed to the company.  I have a few other things we do but
they rest on novel legal theory so I'm not going to discuss them.

> 
> And have you or anyone heard of anyone in the US prosecute a kit (or
> whole clock) maker outside the US?

Not outside the US but yes, several here.  One stands out.  The Storz
Medical company manufactured what everyone regarded as the best
resectiscope (an instrument inserted into Mr Happy [uncross your legs
now] and has a little loop connected to coax cable that is used to burn
off bladder cysts.

There was another company that made the best borescopes.  So Storz got
this brilliant idea to mate their rescectiscope to this borescope using
an adapter.

They did this by hiring a home shop machinist with little more
instruction than to make the two fit together and make the connection
waterproof.  Then when the company received the adapters, they started
selling them with no outside testing.

This guy, having no medical manufacturing background, made the adapter
out of aluminum instead of surgical steel and used 1 O-ring on each end
for the seal.

A urologists in Cleveland, TN bought one of the setups.  he had the
patient jacked almost to the ceiling and was looking almost straight up
to get at a polyp on the upper wall.  Connected to the instrument was an
"electrosurg" or electronic surgical unit.  Basically a hopped up wart
burner.  About 500 watts max output.

The doc was concentrating so hard on the task at hand that he hadn't
realized that the adapter was leaking irrigation fluid and the fluid had
puddled in his eye socket.

When he stepped on the pedal to cut, the RF flowed down the stream of
fluid and into his eye.  Skin effect let the current flow around his
eyeball until it came to the optic nerve.  It severed the nerve,
instantly blinding the doc in that eye and ending his career.

That was the only case I ever work for the plaintiffs because Storz's
actions were so reckless.

To make a long story short, we cleaned their clocks.  About a $50M
verdict, upheld on appeal.  We clea

Re: [neonixie-l] Legal aspects of kits for sale?

[NeonJohn]

Try to use such a unilateral disclaimer in court.  It's been too long
and I've forgotten the technical term for the legal principle but
essentially it says that unless the disclaimer is part of the purchase
contract, it has no effect because both parties did not agree to the
disclaimer.  You establish the terms of the sales contract when you
process your cart at Digikey or whatever.

My e-store has a little checkbox that must be checked to make a
purchase.  It says that you have read and agree to my terms of sale.
Those terms DO include a disclaimer and by checking that box, you have
made it part of the sales contract.

John


On 05/05/2016 05:12 PM, gregebert wrote:
> Disclaimers are industry-standard practice; take a look at any datasheet.
> 
> Component manufacturers have standard disclaimers in their datasheets, 
> disavowing any liability for consequences of using their products. In 
> addition, most have another specific disclaimer regarding life-support 
> devices.
> 

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
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Re: [neonixie-l] Legal aspects of kits for sale?

[NeonJohn]

While I'm not a lawyer, I've spent many years working for 2 firms as an
expert witness.

What will happen after some guy touches a high voltage point, falls off
his stool, hits his head on the counter, breaks his neck and is now a
quadriplegic is this.

You will be served.  Usually a work.  Process servers LOVE to serve
people at work for maximum embarrassment.  You'll have 30 days in most
states to answer the complaint.  If you don't, the other side wins what
they ask for by default and they start taking your stuff, garnisheeing
your wages and so on.  And a judgment is one of the few things you can't
bankrupt out from under.  You can expect to have your wages garnisheed
pretty much for the rest of your life.

So you see a lawyer.  He'll read the complaint, tell you a few things
about the probability of winning and so forth.  Then he'll tell you that
he charges $350/hour and bills against a $5000 to $10,000 retainer, due
and payable immediately.

You could, of course try to represent yourself but that'd be like
leading a lamb to slaughter.

The next thing that will happen after you clean out your savings account
for the retainer is that there will be a deposition.

You'll meet with the other side and a court reporter in one of the
sides' conference room.  You're sworn in and the fun begins.  The
session will be video recorded in addition to the court reporter.  All
these expenses that are adding up, you get to pay if you lose.

The plaintiff's lawyer will have a guy like me advising him.  They'll
have a working version of the clock PCB all fired up and ticking away.

He'll ask you something to the effect "If I touch right here (a high
voltage point) will I be shocked?  This is civil court.  You can't take
the Fifth.  Ultimately a judge will order you to answer and if you
don't, he will toss you in jail for contempt.

IF you answer "yes", pretty much game-over.  He'll ask you to show him
in the manual where you warn the kit builder not to touch that point.

To add insult to injury, he may pick out a couple more points on the board.

If you say "no", the next question will be "sir, please touch that point
to assure us there is no hazard.

Now you have a dilemma.  If you say that you were wrong and that the
point will cause a shock, you'll get grilled for a bit about which time
did you perjure yourself, your first answer or now?  If you touch it and
get shocked, game over.  If you refuse to answer, the lawyer will
speed-dial a judge on the speakerphone and request an order for you to
answer.  If you refuse, it's off to jail we go.  The judge can keep you
in jail as long as he wants to or until you comply with his order.

The lawyer will finish the deposition by asking about your
qualifications to design such dangerous hardware, what kits you've
designed and sold before and a few other things designed to make you
look bad.

Your lawyer can ask you questions in an attempt to rehabilitate your
case but most won't.  The other side can cross-examine any answer you
give which opens up more doors for exploration.

That's used up your retainer so your lawyer will ask for another check.
 He'll also ask your permission to negotiate a settlement.  If the
victim was seriously hurt, if they will discuss settlement at all, it
will be high.  If the guy wasn't seriously hurt, he might settle for
"just" $50k.  Can you pay that?

If the case goes to trial, the (in TN) 6 man jury gets to see the
depositions.  You will be compelled to testify (remember, no 5th in
civil cases) where the plaintiff's attorney will ask you all the same
questions all over again.  Better remember your answers during
deposition or you'll face a perjury charge.

The jury will be composed of the 6 dumbest people in the county who
couldn't figure out how to get out of jury duty and then passed voir
dire. (OK, I'm overstating a bit but many trials have made me quite
cynical.)  And unlike criminal cases, it takes only a majority of jurors
to find you guilty.  So one juror can't hang the jury or convince the
others to change their minds.

When you lose, you might think that you'll appeal.  In TN, like most
states, you have to post a cash bond equal to the value of the judgment
before you can appeal.   Let's say the jury awarded a "measly" $1
million.  A bonding company will require 10% of the amount as payment.
Can you come up with $100k?  That only buys you the right to appeal.

By the time verdict time rolls around, your lawyer will have prepared
seizure orders, had them signed off by a judge and will have people
positioned to seize your car, your boat and anything else you own except
your house to satisfy the balance of his fees and the plaintiff's
expenses which the judge will award.

Basically you've just become a poor man.

There are a few things you can do to protect yourself.  You should have
an umbrella liability policy attached to your homeowner's or renter's
insurance.  I have a $5Mil one that costs me about $300 a year.

Second, you can do this a

Re: [neonixie-l] Shipping to Russia - Recently ?

[NeonJohn]

We used to ship to Russia UPS or Fedex with no problems.  No USPS
problems.  With the turmoil going on between our two countries, it
wouldn't surprise me for the USPS to be a pawn in the argument.

Shipping with the other two carriers was very easy.  They take care of
all the paperwork.  UPS charges for doing that but Fedex doesn't.

When I took over the company we stopped selling outside the US.  Reasons
are possible ITAR problems, no CE stamp and in our particular case, the
induction heater's frequency might not be legal in that company.  My
main reason was ITAR.  I did my research and read about horror stories
of people shipping ordinary devices, only to have the State dept declare
the processor and its firmware a "munition" and heavily fine the victim.
 I would expect Russia to be a particular problem in that area.

John


On 05/03/2016 01:36 PM, 'threeneurons' via neonixie-l wrote:
> In the past I've sent a few parcels to Russia without any problems. Parcels 
> usually got there in a timely manner. Only one parcel didn't make it. 
> Actually, it did. It got all the way to the proper city, in Russia. Then it 
> got stamped "return to sender", and ended up, unopened, back on my door 
> step. Full circuit time ~4 months.
> 
> Today, somebody in Moscow, ordered a dohickie, thru eBay. I went to the 
> usual routine of trying to fill out the customs form on line. A little 
> problem. Looks like the US Postal Service has no country of Russia, or 
> Russian Federation, in their computer. I called up the post office toll 
> free number, and asked. They were no help.
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone, here, has had any issues with parcels to Russia, 
> within the last month or two ? There's some noise about Russian Customs on 
> other Internet forums. I never rely on those. Too much noise. Very little 
> fact.
> 
> I'll try contacting the US State department, and see if they have any 
> notices.
> 

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
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Re: [neonixie-l] Noble gas 'Neon' Chemical Symbols

[NeonJohn]

On 03/27/2016 10:56 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote:

>>  The problem, other than the high radiation, with placing Ra in an
>> enclosed vessel is that it quickly reaches secular equilibrium with its
>> decay products down to Pb-210.
> 
> Oh, there's another problem.  Various phases of the decay chain release alpha 
> particles, which
> are helium nuclei, and stable.  For each radon atom created (which only last 
> a few days), ultimately
> six helium atoms are also created.  So you won't ever reach equilibrium, the 
> helium will rapidly overtake
> the radon, and the pressure will (extremely) gradually rise as the helium 
> accumulates.

Yes one would reach nuclear equilibrium.  The helium buildup is a
separate phenomena than the nuclear decay.  The helium would grow to
dominate the emission spectrum but the Radon lines will be there too.
That's why I estimate that the discharge would look like Krypton.

As I would start with an evacuated tube, the helium pressure buildup
would take decades to reach atmospheric pressure, depending on the
quantity of radium present.

I have (well, had.  It got stolen.) a 10mCi Ra Brachytherapy source.
Tiny gold capsule over 50 years old.  Still no leakage or helium bulge -
at least until it got stolen.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Noble gas 'Neon' Chemical Symbols

[NeonJohn]

On 03/27/2016 07:06 AM, Tidak Ada wrote:
> May it be there is a getter like material that can produce RN, like the 
> Pb-210 John mentioned?

Radium is the source of radon.  The problem is its intense
radioactivity.  Indeed, a gram of radium defines the Curie, the
traditional measurement of radioactivity.

The problem, other than the high radiation, with placing Ra in an
enclosed vessel is that it quickly reaches secular equilibrium with its
decay products down to Pb-210.  In a few decades, it reaches complete
equilibrium with its daughters as the Pb-210 decays into stable lead as
rapidly as it is formed.

To answer another question, the emission spectrum looks similar to
krypton so the glow discharge would probably be indistinguishable.

I looked at the Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radon
(surprisingly good if you ignore most of the health effects).  I was
surprised to find that Lord Rutherford isolated enough of the gas in
1908 to get its discharge spectrum.

According to the Wiki article, in high enough concentrations, Radon is
also radioluminescent, either green or yellow, probably depending on the
concentration.

To address another comment, Pb-210 is available in regulatory exempt
quantities (5uCi I think) from Spectrum Sources.  Higher quantities if
one obtains a license.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Noble gas 'Neon' Chemical Sympols

[NeonJohn]

I did leave Rn out but not unintentionally.  I'm not sure enough Rn has
ever been collected in one spot to fill the letters Rn.  If that was
possible and the contents added to the tubing, viewing the "Rn" would be
your dying wish!

Of course, one could sprinkle some Pb-210 into the tube.  That's the
first Radon daughter with a useful half-life (about 22 years.)

That would actually work pretty well, as the remaining daughters decay
with either beta or alpha particles.  Both are good for stimulating
phosphors and neither will penetrate the glass, though a little
Bremsstrahlung X-rays will be produced from the beta particles.

Of course, the tube would not fill with a uniform glow.  There would be
bright speckles everywhere a particle of Pb-210 landed.

John


On 03/26/2016 01:57 PM, gregebert wrote:
> I think you mean Rn (Radon), rather than Ra (Radium).
> 
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Noble gas 'Neon' Chemical Sympols

[NeonJohn]

On 03/25/2016 05:33 PM, Tidak Ada wrote:
> Nice Photo's! What is the size of the signs? What I have is about 70×70 mm. 
> Tubing 7,5 mm dia. 
> 
> John:Thanks for the address! I'll contact them...

You're welcome.

In the US, tubing comes in 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14 and 17mm dia.  Those
are nominal and can vary a bit.  I've seen some weird sizes come out of
the orient and mexico.

Most of his stuff is 2 to 2.5' tall.  The free-standing signs rest on a
plastic base that contains the transformer.  Last year I bought my SIL
(who is ape-shit into flamingos) the cool-ray flamingo - the one with
the blue sunglasses.  It comes up to a little above my knees.

Incidentally, another bender in the same class is Tony Greer.
neongl...@aol.com.  I've begged him for years to put up a website but he
still displays on some general art site.  I think you can find it by
searching his name along with "neon".  He does a lot more blown stuff
than Bill does.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Noble gas 'Neon' Chemical Sympols

[NeonJohn]

The best neon bender I know is Bill Buth. b...@neonstreet.com.  He can
fix you right up.

His Etsy shop: https://www.etsy.com/shop/BillieBoi

He will stay in the tube if boro glass is used.  Bill can do that.

Kr is totally boring.

Xe you'll probably want filled to a high enough pressure that it snakes
around in the tube.  Bill knows all this stuff too.

I'd fix you up but inconveniently, someone stole my neon plant several
years ago and I haven't been able to replace it.

John


On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Tidak Ada wrote:
> Please can somebody trell me where to get those 'neon'-letter chemical 
> symbols of noble gases ? I gXeot the symbols for He, Kr and Xe, but are 
> missing just those  for Ne and Ar. Futher tha He symbol is told me to be 
> outgassed.
> 
> Thanks for any information
> 
> eric
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron T-Shirt

[NeonJohn]

Done deal.  Thanks.

If I could make one more suggestion.  The shirt with the dual dekatrons,
Separate them a bit more.  Make 'em, you know, fit the anatomy :-)

John



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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron T-Shirt

[NeonJohn]

On 03/24/2016 08:38 AM, Keith Moore wrote:

> http://www.cafepress.com/thecourtjester
> 
> Dekatron shirts - http://www.cafepress.com/thecourtjester/11101119

Hey Keith.

Love your shirts.  I want some.  Bt.  At 6'7" and around 290 lbs,
the 2XL will probably fit my thigh.  How about including at least the
3XL and a 3XLT if they have 'em.

Ur eager customer
John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Good B7971s?

[NeonJohn]

On 03/11/2016 05:56 PM, Nick wrote:
> It's pretty much impossible to re-gas a nixie, not to mention being
> dangerous due to the Hg.

There is no danger in the tiny amount of mercury involved.
> 
> I tried doing this with an outgassed tube helped by a really expert
> hot-glass specialist.
> 
> We failed, probably on the annealing. The glass cracked.

Probably a coefficient of expansion (COE) problem between the glass of
the nixie envelope and the tubulation you sealed onto it.

It is very likely that your expert glass specialist was used to working
with boro glass with a COE in the 10 range.  Low power tubes usually use
leaded glass with a COE of around 90.  more than about 5 points
difference and it WILL crack, regardless of the annealing.

The way to tell leaded glass is to look for dark and/or reflective
stains on the tubulation tip-off and around the pin header to envelope seal.

I've repaired a number of vacuum tubes and mercury rectifier but being a
neonist, I'm used to 90 COE leaded glass.

The way to determine the compatibility of two glasses is to take two
pieces (say, the tip-off bit left after diamond sawing the tubulation
tip-off from the bad nixie) of the glass and hold touching each other
with stainless needlenose pliers or hemostats.  Place the pieces in the
fire and heat the tip of a glass rod compatible with the known glass.

When the glass has softened, touch the soft end of the glass rod to the
combo.  Fire strongly and pull out to a fine thread.  The known glass
will be on one side and the unknown on the other.

If the thread cools straight then the glasses are compatible.  If the
thread curves away from the axis, then the glasses are not compatible.
The thread will curve toward the glass with the highest COE.

Sometimes a transition glass can be used.  Uranium glass is a good
transition between leaded and harder glass.  That's why you often see
bright green beads of glass around the pins of larger vacuum tubes.

Many high power vacuum tubes use boro glass for the envelope.  There is
no good sealing glass compatible with boro up to vacuum tube standards
so U glass is used as a transition between the boro and the glass on the
pins.

I would not be at all hesitant to repair a Nixie, especially if I had
another one just like it that was scrap that I could use the envelope
glass to determine compatibility.

John



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Re: [neonixie-l] Hi, and my Nixie clock app

[NeonJohn]

On 03/07/2016 02:53 PM, Neal Bridges wrote:
> Hi!  I'm a Nixie fan, and though I've never been lucky enough to own a real 
> clock, I've recently made an app for the iPhone and iPad featuring Nixie 
> tubes.  It's at apple.co/1RaYQZY  .

This is a good opportunity to mention another resource - a Nixie typeface.

http://www.neon-john.com/Neon/Nixie_Fonts/Nixotic_index.htm

Note that I'm simply hosting the files and had absolutely nothing to do
with their creation.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Scope clock in plastic case

[NeonJohn]

On 2/18/2016 8:59 PM, David Forbes wrote:
> I expect to offer it as a product soon. I still need to work out the
> price. I may offer it as a partial kit with the SMT assembly done, or as
> a finished product in a case. I do plan to publish the code and most of
> the design files.

Please!  At least an assembled and tested unit.  I want one of your
clocks so badly but zero extra time to spare right now.

Please have pity on my wallet :-)  Could I trade you an induction
heater? :-)

Thanks,
John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Flip Clock with WWVB

[NeonJohn]

On 02/03/2016 12:03 PM, 'Terry S' via neonixie-l wrote:
> Got it -- I should have read the description more carefully, I assumed it 
> wasn't working due to lack of the broadcast time signal. So in reality, you 
> are good to go. I still think WWVB is unnecessary on a 4 digit clock. 

I have a bunch of flip panels from buses so a clock is in my future.
They are LOUD inside a quiet house.  What I'm thinking is 6 digit but
with a motion sensor that only activates the seconds when someone is
near.  Otherwise the seconds are blanked out and the HH:MM is shifted to
the center of the display.

In the bus display, each row is treated as a shift register while the
columns are treated as bits in a word,  A friend to whom I gave a panel
has figured out the driving scheme.

Even if GPS or WWVB wasn't strictly necessary, I'd have to have it just
to handle the switch to and from DST.  I finally got all the clocks in
my house changed out to WWVB clocks so now DST day is just another day.
> 
> I don't trust Aliexpress, too many of the sellers are shady and there is no 
> real buyer protection. If the seller accepts PayPal then maybe you have a 
> shot. Otherwise you are just broadcasting your credit card all over China.

We've had very good luck with both express and Alibaba.  A few rules.

Never ever use a credit card.  Always paypal.  I loathe paypal but I
have an account just for them and dxexpress.com.

ALWAYS buy or negotiate samples before buying for effect.  Many of those
manufacturers have no idea what they're making.  They just cloned
something that looked cool.

IF you're buying for effect from an Alibaba vendor, ALWAYS use an escrow
service.  Hard lesson learned here.  They always want the full amount
paid up front.  The most we'll do is pay for the raw materials.  The
rest goes in escrow.

If you're having something manufactured, specify every single dimension,
detail and step.  The last round of extrusions we had made, we forgot to
specify deburring the drilled holes.  Just guess what we got!

In the escrow agreement, specify that they must ship several (usually 5)
pieces from the finished production for our inspection before we release
the money.  Of course, they can "cook the book" on the samples but
that's better than being blind-sided.  After the extrusion debacle (the
samples WERE deburred), we've started requiring a video of them picking
samples at random.

Yeah, they're a pain in the tutu but the cost saving is worth it.

John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Microchip finally buys Atmel

[NeonJohn]

Just a note to thank you guys for turning me on to the MPS430 series.  I
spent yesterday reading.  I ordered a Launchpad and am headed to the
library in a few (my Hughsnet can't stand the strain this month :-( to
download all the tools.  I'm really lovin' it that the IDE runs on Linux
too, since we're an all-Linux shop.

This chip series and some of the support libraries are going to allow me
to remarkably simplify the product I've been working on.

Again, thanks
John


On 01/28/2016 09:21 PM, Charles MacDonald wrote:
> On 16-01-27 11:06 AM, NeonJohn wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 01/27/2016 09:22 AM, Nick wrote:
>>> +1 on hating the PIC "architecture".
>>>
>>> I was always an AVR man, then I discovered the MSP430 series... :)

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Re: [neonixie-l] Microchip finally buys Atmel

[NeonJohn]

Ahhh, OK.  Thanks.  Sheds a much different light on things.

John


On 01/27/2016 11:34 AM, Nick wrote:
> The whole MSP430 toolchain is free. You only pay if you want the
> slightly better optimiser in the commercial variant which also allows
> bigger binaries, however the gnu MSP430 compiler has no limits, is
> fully supported by the TI IDE, and is free - TI's commercial offering
> is the same gnu gcc/g++ compiler except that it's been optimised in
> association with red hat.
> 
> Nick
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Microchip finally buys Atmel

[NeonJohn]

On 01/27/2016 09:22 AM, Nick wrote:
> +1 on hating the PIC "architecture".
> 
> I was always an AVR man, then I discovered the MSP430 series... :)

Interesting.  I plugged MPS430 into mouser and what came up is a large
100 pin chip that is fairly expensive.  Are there smaller versions in
the series?  I guess I have a lot of reading to do.

I'm in a quandary.  In upcoming products, I need more power than the
AVRs can provide.  I feel like I should be on the ARM bandwagon but I
have no idea where to start.  This TI chip looks interesting but it
chaps me to have to pay for dev tools. Yeah, I know the GNU chain is
free but sometimes one just has to have a source code debugger.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Microchip finally buys Atmel

[NeonJohn]

On 01/27/2016 12:24 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote:

> I did a lot of research and looked at many architectures before
> settling on the Atmel AVR line, with their strong flash support
> (Atmel was a big flash memory manufacturer), their $79 demo board
> that also served as an in-circuit programmer (open source, with a
> documented protocol, too), widely available tool set, and gcc support
> so I could program in C.

Early on, I took one look at the PIC architecture and dev environment,
puked and stayed with the tried and true 8051.  Then Atmel came along.
Angles sang.  Harps played.. OK, well I am getting carried away a bit.

> 
> Over the years, Microchip slowly learned how the market works, and
> eventually did document their programmer protocol, and even made a
> hamhanded attempt to offer their tools for modern operating systems,
> but they still had the horrid UI typical of MS-DOS software, and were
> horrible bloatware.

Atmel isn't much better with their Studio environment.  Fortunately
there are the GNU toolchains.

> I'm a little dubious about Microchip taking over, and it would be a
> shame if they attempted to shut down the AVR line, programmers,
> tools, and support.

They bought Atmel because Atmel is winning and MicroChip is losing in
the embedded market.  The hobbyists are a tiny segment.  The commercial
and consumer side are where they are winning.  We're a tiny manufacturer
but we've used well over a thousand AT90PWMs.

If you take stuff apart to see what's inside like I do, you'll notice
that more and more Atmel parts are winning design-ins whereas a few
years ago PICs would have ruled.
> 
> Fortunately by now, the Arduino movement has branched out, and
> supports a wide variety of other CPU architectures (ARM, MSP430, LXP,
> the pointless Intel efforts, and many others), so even if Microchip
> kills off that cash cow, I'll have my pick of architectures to move
> to (these days, you can get a serious ARM CPU in DIP format, useful
> for breadboarding).  However, I hope they leave well enough alone.

I do too.  I'm results-oriented (I enjoy seeing the results of my work,
not the work itself) so I don't want to have to learn another
architecture if I don't have to.  I am dipping my toes in the ARM waters
but there are so damn many variations...  Already made one mistake with
the BeagleBoard Black.

John



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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Scope Clock rising from the ashes

[NeonJohn]

Good.  I've coveted that original clock ever since you first made it but
I couldn't scrape together the shekels :-(  Thrilled to get another
opportunity.

Say, could I trade you an induction heater for a clock? :-)

John


On 01/13/2016 12:26 PM, David Forbes wrote:
> John,
> 
> I am planning to make it available in both wood and acrylic cases. The
> laser cutter works on either. There will be bolts and tabs holding it
> together, similar to the Makerbot.
> 
> The PC board will be SMT, with all the parts visible through the acrylic
> front panel. A few thru-hole parts will be on the rear of the panel. I
> will have a USB port on the board, and a header to mount a USB jack on
> the rear panel of the case.
> 
> I do plan to offer it as a board semi-kit (machine-stuffed SMT parts),
> and to publish the laser cutter files for people to make their own cases.
> 
> I plan to eventually produce a generic board that works with any tube
> size, but first I want to get the one done that helps me unload all
> those 3RP1 CRTs I have!
> 
> On 1/13/16 10:08 AM, NeonJohn wrote:
>> Is this going to be like the original scopeclock, in the clear acrylic
>> case?  If so sign me up.  I'll find the money tree somewhere... :-)
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On 01/13/2016 08:55 AM, dixter wrote:
>>> wow  David,,,   please put me down for one when  you are selling
>>> these...  thanks
>>> dick bell
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 12:00:04 AM UTC-6, nixiebunny wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> I have been trying to find a way to fit all my stuff into the storage
>>>> room, and realized that it has too many CRTs in it. This has led to me
>>>> taking the year off the First Robotics team I've mentored, to get some
>>>> free time to design a product that will help me sell all those CRTs.
>>>>
>>>> I am working on reviving my Scope Clocks.
>>>>
>>>> I've decided to go with an Arduino style processor, since it's way more
>>>> user-friendly and popular than those wacky Motorola processors I
>>>> used or
>>>> the PICs that the OscilloClock uses. So I'm rewriting the code in C,
>>>> which will take a few weeks.
>>>>
>>>> I've also redesigned the board and case to be DIY-friendly, and to
>>>> resemble an old 3 inch oscilloscope. I have come up with a circuit
>>>> board
>>>> layout that fits behind the front panel. The panel has the look of a
>>>> fifties 'scope, with the intensity and focus knobs at top corners and
>>>> the H and V knobs below, and a big time-setting encoder in the lower
>>>> center. (Did you know that it's impossible to find high voltage pots
>>>> and
>>>> rotary encoders that share a common knob?)
>>>>
>>>> I've already designed and made a quickie laser-cut case, since I have
>>>> access to a laser cutter now. Quick turn fab is marvelous.
>>>>
>>>> I'll post photos when I have something to take photos of.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> David Forbes, Tucson AZ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Scope Clock rising from the ashes

[NeonJohn]

Is this going to be like the original scopeclock, in the clear acrylic
case?  If so sign me up.  I'll find the money tree somewhere... :-)

John


On 01/13/2016 08:55 AM, dixter wrote:
> wow  David,,,   please put me down for one when  you are selling 
> these...  thanks  
> dick bell
> 
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 12:00:04 AM UTC-6, nixiebunny wrote:
>>
>> Folks, 
>>
>> I have been trying to find a way to fit all my stuff into the storage 
>> room, and realized that it has too many CRTs in it. This has led to me 
>> taking the year off the First Robotics team I've mentored, to get some 
>> free time to design a product that will help me sell all those CRTs. 
>>
>> I am working on reviving my Scope Clocks. 
>>
>> I've decided to go with an Arduino style processor, since it's way more 
>> user-friendly and popular than those wacky Motorola processors I used or 
>> the PICs that the OscilloClock uses. So I'm rewriting the code in C, 
>> which will take a few weeks. 
>>
>> I've also redesigned the board and case to be DIY-friendly, and to 
>> resemble an old 3 inch oscilloscope. I have come up with a circuit board 
>> layout that fits behind the front panel. The panel has the look of a 
>> fifties 'scope, with the intensity and focus knobs at top corners and 
>> the H and V knobs below, and a big time-setting encoder in the lower 
>> center. (Did you know that it's impossible to find high voltage pots and 
>> rotary encoders that share a common knob?) 
>>
>> I've already designed and made a quickie laser-cut case, since I have 
>> access to a laser cutter now. Quick turn fab is marvelous. 
>>
>> I'll post photos when I have something to take photos of. 
>>
>> -- 
>> David Forbes, Tucson AZ 
>>
>>
> 

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
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Originals
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: NixieStat Thermostat is closer to reality

[NeonJohn]

On 01/03/2016 10:37 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
> Perhaps open source it? If you want to make money, perhaps work out a 
> license for the software. 

Oh absolutely open source it.  Hardware and software.

Open source built Fluxeon (my old induction heater company) and now it's
building Tnduction (my new one).  We offered almost all our products as
open source.  Bare boards, kits and A/T boards.

I think we sold all of 5 bare boards.  The kits were a disaster.  People
CANNOT solder, nor can they read resistor color codes.  Or follow
instructions, for that matter.  And after they tried to build a board
using a Weller soldering GUN, they'd want free support.

We sold quite a number of A/T board kits.  Most of those sales resulted
in the sale of a Roy, our standard-bearer product.  Open source got us
started and it continues to contribute to sales today.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] NixieStat Thermostat is closer to reality

[NeonJohn]

Here's my opinion as Chief Engineer and majority owner of a company with
several products on the market.

*) Lose the solid state relays.  They will surely be failed in short
order the first time a service call is initiated.  HVAC guys like to
short low voltage wiring to look for power.  Faster than getting out a
meter.

*)  Lose the LED version.  The Nixies are the hook that justifies the
high price.  LEDs won't.

*)  Not a good KickStarter project.  They (the doners) tend to like big
projects.  Maybe one of the other crowsourced sites that cater to small
projects.

*)  I suggest using a quick flip etch and stuff house to assemble say, 5
A/T systems and get them out there to beta testers.  You MUST beta test.
 Our beta test policy is that the tester buys a machine at half price
and when the test is over, he gets a production machine at no extra
charge.  Another approach is to put them out at cost.  Either way you
recover your costs.

*) Consider putting it with SparkFun.  They have three ways of selling
your projects.

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-sell-your-widget-on-sparkfun

I have several pieces of ancillary bits and pieces that I'm about to
offer.  The first is a variable speed fan controller.  Stick the
stamp-sized board to a heat sink, connect 9 to 30 volts to the input,
connect a 15 volt or higher fan to the output and viola.  No noise
unless it's necessary to keep the sink at the setpoint.  We use this
controller in our Roy induction heater so the design is well-proven.
Therefore I'll probably go with option 1.

*)  Deal with and mock up/3d print the case first and get the approval
of several women of various backgrounds.  No only does the lady of the
house control what goes on the furniture in many instances, they almost
always control the thermostat.

Figure out how you're going to manufacture your enclosure if you go the
custom route.  I'm very unimpressed with the appearance of 3d printed
parts, even from industrial machines.  I can tell you all about getting
enclosures manufactured in China, for that's what we had to do to handle
the cost.

*)  Do a "design for manufacturing" and cost reduction pass across the
thing.  Those Dallas temperature sensors are nice but a forward biased
diode will do the same job for a tiny fraction of the cost.  You can
specify 4 wire telephone indoor plant wiring for the hookup and do a
Kelvin measurement to eliminate lead resistance effects.

Up until a couple of years ago I was seeing thermistors in extremely
cheap consumer goods.  Now I see diodes.

*)  Get hold of an ASHRAE handbook and learn how to properly implement
the outdoor temperature modulated algorithm.  Hint: Torrent :-)

*)  Also study the ASHRAE standard comfort map.  This maps temperature
vs humidity vs comfort.  The aim of your thermostat is not to control
temperature but to control comfort.

*)  To that end, you need a humidity sensor so you can properly
implement the comfort algorithm.

*)  You need outputs for de- and humidifiers for the same reason.
Particularly central humidifiers in the winter.  One can maintain
comfort at a much lower temperature if the humidity is kept high which
will save the owner a lot in energy costs.

Here's a concrete example.  Right now to keep my honey comfortable, the
house is at 79 degrees and 20% RH.  I'm about to re-install the
water-line-connected humidifier in my propane furnace. (I take it out
during the summer to prevent lint build-up).  I know that with 50%
humidity, she's comfortable at 69 deg.  Major savings in fuel.

*) contemplate the liability you're taking on.  A malfunction could
start a fire or let a house freeze up and burst pipes.  At least get a
personal liability rider on your homeowner's policy.  A megabuck's worth
of coverage is very cheap.

*)  Consider your engineering approach, particularly your software
approach.  Are you building self-checking and redundancy and other high
reliability techniques into your code?  Using the Arduino black box
library doesn't give me fuzzy feelings in this area.

*)  If you're going to make these in commercial quantities, consider
getting it listed.  We work with ETL (I have a grudge against UL and
their nasty politics).  Figure at least $5 large.

Well, that turned into an epistle!  Just some things to think about, though.

John


On 01/02/2016 09:38 PM, Joe Croft wrote:
> Happy New Year Yall!!
> 
> To open this new years, I have been continuing on my saga with the
> NixieStat Thermostat. I have a hackaday project with pictures and more here:
> 
> https://hackaday.io/project/4452-nixiestat
> 
> I want to make this a kit, either both a Nixie tube version as well as  7
> segment  LED version. Unfortunately I don't have the cash on hand to do
> this in any quantity to start so I was thinking of turning to Kickstarter.
> The question is, what is the quantity of kits I should aim for? If I do 50
> or each kit the approximate prices would be $115.00 for the LED version and
> $155.00 for the Nixie 

Re: [neonixie-l] Just show you guys what I made

[NeonJohn]

Remarkable accomplishment!

John


On 12/12/2015 11:55 PM, Chaos Hydra wrote:
> Hey guys, if you remember I was asking questions about IV-17 tubes filament 
> voltage problem. Though there is still some contrast problem, the project 
> is finished. Just want to share this cool baby with you guys!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaUscYTW8Vs
> 

-- 
John DeArmond
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Rant: Shipping to Germany

[NeonJohn]

On 11/29/2015 11:27 AM, 'threeneurons' via neonixie-l wrote:

> Seems German Customs needs to see an invoice accessible from the outside. I 
> tend not to ship any paperwork. Only the required Customs Declaration 
> pasted on the box. I think I'll have to invest in these:

Doesn't matter.  We did it correctly and out products still sat in
customs for weeks.  Amazingly enough, the nearby countries that you'd
expect to have the most problems with, France and Italy, no problems at all.

If you have a UPS account, their software will present you with all the
necessary forms and request all necessary data for the country you're
shipping to.  And if you pay their $35 brokerage fee, they'll handle all
customs paperwork at the receiving end.

I highly recommend having an account even if you don't use them much or
at all.  The account is free.  We run stuff that's going USPS through
the UPS system just to make sure we have all the forms and declarations.
 The post office is pretty useless in that regard.

We recently shipped an induction heated lead melting machine to a
Canadian utility.  That was a week-long, nerve-wracking ordeal.  My
first mistake was taking the machine to a company that packs stuff for
shipment.  They had no idea what forms were needed and simply put an
address label on the box.

It took UPS's regional export expert almost a week to straighten out
what was to be an overnight shipment.  I shipped the second machine via
Fedex at a Kinkos/Fedex center and everything was done perfectly but
that's another story.

I learned something from the UPS expert.  Thanks to the panphobia
rampant in this country post 9/11 as embodied in the Patriot (sic) Act,
one is now supposed to be a TSA certified shipper before shipping items
out of the country.  Why TSA?  Who knows?  I don't have the stomach to
read the Patriot (sic) Act.

Our attorney is researching this but I suspect that any of us who ship
stuff across the border are breaking the law.  Customs probably pays no
attention to small, low declared value items but they sure did my lead
melter ($5k).

I had to transfer ownership of the machine to UPS and they technically
exported it.

Something to at least think about, if not worry about.  Meanwhile we are
USA-only sales until we get this clarified.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Rant: Shipping to Germany

[NeonJohn]

Same here and for the same reason.  We've had induction heaters sit for
3 weeks in german customs.

John


On 11/26/2015 09:38 PM, taylorjpt wrote:
> I no longer ship to Germany because it takes a long time or gets lost
> all together and then the German customers open up ebay and paypal
> cases against me.  If thr packages ever get there, not a single one
> of them will admit to it.
> 
> I wash my hands of German customers!
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Linear power supplies for nixies

[NeonJohn]

On 10/02/2015 03:07 AM, Dekatron42 wrote:
> Can anyone direct me to a document that says that it is allowed to sell an 
> electronic apparatus that uses a primary winding as a secondary winding - I 
> spent a lot of time Googling this and I can't find anything. 

I'm truly amazed that anyone would think that this sort of triviality
would be written down somewhere.  Just as you wouldn't find, for
example, an official document saying that one can use a 2n3904 as a very
fast avalanche pulse generator. Or any of the millions of other
techniques engineers use to accomplish the job.

If you pay close attention to the NEC, you'll see that most requirements
can be modified or over-ridden by "good engineering judgement".  That
is, a competent engineer can look at a specific situation, determine
that the cook-book requirement doesn't fit and design a solution
specific to the situation.

Of course, the engineer assumes liability for any subsequent
malfunctions, just as an architect does for new building techniques.

I can assume with reasonable certainty that you don't know how the
agency approval (UL, ETL, etc) works.  There's no massive tome on high
that is consulted to determine if a given gadget works.

If you take your new design for a transformer-based wall-wart to ETL,
they will consult their files to see if there is a testing procedure
already on record.  If so, you pay them about $2500 and they test your
gadget against the procedure.

If your gadget covers new area, then you pay them something starting at
about $10k for them to develop the testing procedure.  THEIR engineers
use good engineering judgement based on experience when determining the
testing procedure.  "Is 2500 VDC for 1 minute enough of an interwinding
potential or should it be 4500?"  Based on their collected body of
experience and data, as well as any applicable standards, they'll select
an appropriate value.

Contrary to popular belief, at least here in the US, a product does NOT
have to have agency approval to be marketed and used, except for a few
malignant jurisdictions such as NYC.

At Fluxeon, we decided at start-up not to waste the money on agency
approvals for our portable induction heaters.  We lose a sale here and
there but all in all, that has turned out to be the correct decision.

As Chief Engineer and as a member of the Board, the onus for product
safety falls on my shoulders.  My qualification requirements are vastly
tougher than any agency would require.

A prime example is the output transformer.  It has about 1200 VAC on the
primary and about 60 VAC on the other.  It is also the life safety
barrier separating line voltage from the user.  An agency might require
a safety factor of 5 and require a HiPot test of perhaps 6kVDC for a
minute.

Every transformer is tested at 8kVDC for one minute primary to
secondary.  The prototypes and random samples pulled from production are
tested at 12KV high frequency AC for 12 hours.  High frequency AC is a
much tougher test than DC because the HF generates dielectric losses and
other effects not seen with DC.


> I am also 
> concerned about safety and what an insurance company would have to say if a 
> fire breaks out and the culprit is the home built equipment which uses a 
> primary winding as a secondary winding.

I don't know where this widely believed fiction originated from but at
least in every state I've lived in, homeowner's insurance doesn't look
any further than whether arson was involved.

When I place burned after a computer monitor caught fire in the night,
the adjuster made a copy of the fire marshal’s report, cut me a check
for the policy limit, wished me good luck and left.  All over with in 30
minutes.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Linear power supplies for nixies

[NeonJohn]

you are correct.  it is perfectly safe to use dual primaries (or
secondaries) for isolation.  The wire is triple-coated with enamel,
plastic and another layer of enamel.

While I have a multi-thousand dollar Topaz 10kVA Ultra-isolator on my
development bench, we require something cheaper for production testing
of our inductin heaters.  Dual primary dry type transformers fill the
bill just fine.  Each new transformer is HiPotted at 2500 volts winding
to winding for 10 minutes before being put into service.  Never had one
fail.

John


On 10/01/2015 12:14 AM, gregebert wrote:
> I did some research on UL/CSA approved transformers, and there is a 
> requirement that all windings withstand a minimum breakdown voltage, even 
> if they are intended to be connected together, such as dual-primaries. 
> Depending upon the VA rating and the voltage, the breakdown must be between 
> 1050 and 4000 V RMS according to how I read the spec (UL5058-2 / CSA C22.2 
> #66). The test is conducted between 1 winding, and all other windings and 
> the core combined and at elevated temperature. There are copies of the spec 
> online.
> 
> I knew there had to be some amount of isolation, but I did not realize it 
> was *that* high. While I would never expose or touch anything that is 
> supposedly "isolated", it does reassure me there is decent insulation.
> 
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon sign for sale

[NeonJohn]

> Would it have cost 7,000 bucks to have that neon tubing replaced? Or
> did they go to the wrong person?

If all he did was have the glass replaced, that's kinda high.  For plain
double stroke block letters, figure $35-50 a letter, depending on size.

Some benders price by the foot and number of bends but I simplified
letter prices to just the height and the number of strokes.  Comes out
about the same.

There would also be crane time for installing the letters in situ.

It doesn't look like any repainting or can touchup was done.

If the sign needed new transformers and internal wiring, maybe that high
a price could be justified but that's a lot more money than I could get
around here.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon sign for sale

[NeonJohn]

On 08/24/2015 11:48 AM, Quixotic Nixotic wrote:
> The owner of this burger joint took it to pieces in 1997. The sign is now for 
> sale for US $18,000. Sale includes the green roof tiles and white porcelain 
> panels.
> 
> The person selling claims $7,000 has already been spent on restoring the neon.
> 
> It seems expensive to me. Do people really pay these prices?

NO!  They don't.  I'm forwarding this to Len Davidson, probably the
world's expert on antique neon signs.

My guess is that he'll be lucky to get $2-3000 out of it if NONE of the
neon units are broken.  Someone MIGHT pay a few hundred dollars for the
flat signs IFF they're porcelain.  If they're painted, maybe a hundred
or so.  The green tiles will end up being scrap metal.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cross reference table?

[NeonJohn]

On 06/29/2015 10:49 AM, 'threeneurons' via neonixie-l wrote:
> A.J.'s site use to be: http://mysite.verizon.net/res0fab4/files/nixdat.htm
> 
> But apparently, he let it lapse, as of late last year. 

Here it is on the Wayback Machine

https://web.archive.org/web/20140328202208/http://mysite.verizon.net/res0fab4/files/nixdat.htm

This is the last crawl before his site went down.

Enjoy
John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Newest Nixie watch renderings

[NeonJohn]

On 06/18/2015 03:07 AM, David Forbes wrote:

> I think the project has momentum enough to get another batch of
> prototypes made. Should be interesting!

OK, I'm drooling.  Any idea what this new design might cost?  Need to
start picking up beer cans :-)

John



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Re: [neonixie-l] Another nixie watch comes to life

[NeonJohn]

On 05/28/2015 01:26 AM, gregebert wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> After 2 years of work, I finally finished my first (and only) "nixie" 
> watch... OK, so it's panaplex watchwhatever.

Love it!  This may be heresy but I think the Panaplex looks much better
in a watch than Nixies.

I like the "People Like Neon" in the background.  I'd love to get a high
res version of that so I can print a banner for my neon shop - until I
get time to do the real thing.

> The sad story about this watch is that *after* I sealed the case (yep, 
> permanently...), then the charging terminal for the battery developed a 
> broken connection. Murphy's LawSo I must either destroy the handmade 
> plexiglass case, which took many hours to build, or drill some tiny holes 
> into it so I can pin-probe the battery terminals to charge it.

What?  No inductive charging? :-)  Best of luck on that.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition, is finally out...

[NeonJohn]

On 04/13/2015 11:52 AM, 'Ian Vine' via neonixie-l wrote:
> When I studied Electronics at Manchester University back in 1985 that
> was one of the mandatory texts. I can't remember the price back then
> but it was pretty steep around £30 I think. My copy is looking a bit
> battered now so maybe a purchase is required Ian

The author is active on Usenet's sci.electronics.design.  He's already
published an eratta list and is soliciting errors and corrections.  I
think he's offering some kind of bounty for this.

John


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[neonixie-l] Interesting Nixie use

[NeonJohn]

On a home-made X-ray machine

http://walyou.com/homemade-x-ray-machine

John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon Xmas present...

[NeonJohn]

On 12/31/2014 12:47 PM, Nick wrote:
> Apparently I'm being sent on a neon sign making course as an Xmas present 
> this spring.

Cool!!!  If you're like me you'll absolutely fall in love with hot glass.

> 
> I've got several Z568Ms that are out-gassed...
> 
> ...just wondering :)

Yep, if a pin seal isn't leaking you can re-process the tube.  I've done
2.  The hardest part was getting the gas mixture just right.  A lot of
experimenting went into the first one.

During the time it took me to move from my commercial building in
Cleveland, TN to paradise :-), some scrappers broke into the building
and stole everything including my neon plant.

I'm currently designing a compact all-in-one neon plant that will be
contained inside a roll-around cabinet with the bending table on top and
will cost literally hundreds of dollars (instead of the approx $10k I
had in my old shop) to build.  I'll be posting a "how to" guide on
neon-john.com as things progress.

John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Sperry Radar Clock almost done

[NeonJohn]

On 12/17/2014 05:54 AM, Morris Odell wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> You may remember some posts a few months back about my conversion of a 
> Sperry marine radar into a clock. Well it's almost done! Here's a video of 
> progress to date:
> 
> http://youtu.be/kTHOvdUqQOk 
> 
> There a few little software tweaks to go and a minor amount of metalwork 
> but it's pretty much there. Unfortunately I was never able to solve the 
> transformer noise problem so adding chimes is not worth doing. It displays 
> GPS time through my home wifi link and if there's no GPS available it can 
> be set manually and uses the mains frequency as a reference.

That is one of the most impressive clock designs I've seen in a long
time.  Well done!

Regarding the whine.  That would have to go!  Have you considered
removing the transformer and having it baked and dipped at a motor
repair shop?  The varnish should both bind the windings in place and
dampen any magnetostriction.

I use converted metal-halide street lights in my shop.  They were
mounted 40 ft above the road where the noise didn't matter.  Intolerable
indoors.  I took the ballasts down to my friendly local motor shop and
had them dipped and baked.  Almost complete silence.
> 
> Power consumption in display mode is 115 watts mostly losses in the power 
> amplifiers and deflection ballast resistors. There are some BIG heatsinks 
> on the back. Now the biggest issue is where to put it - the domestic 
> engineering manager is hard to please :-(

Wow.  I'm surprised it's that low.  Let's see, about 64 watt-hours a
month.  $10 at our $0.12/watt-hour rate.  Yeah, it's worth it.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] OT: "ShellShock" bash shell vulnerability...

[NeonJohn]

On 09/26/2014 05:57 AM, Nick wrote:
> Genuine 10/10 nastiness for web-servers that use Bash CGI - you have all 
> probably heard about this one - its potentially far far worse than the 
> OpenSSL HeartBleed one... This is what I sent to all our staff yesterday:

> Note that the fix that was originally posted was incomplete – a new fix is 
> yet to be delivered.

What I love about Canonical/Ubuntu community.  They pushed out their own
fix last night.  And my web hosting service, Dreamhost.com, sent out an
announcement that they had engineered their own patch.  NO waiting for
patch Tuesday or whatever.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Careful what you use to power your nixies...

[NeonJohn]

On 09/01/2014 08:58 AM, Nick wrote:
> This is a paper from Buckinghamshire Trading Standards on the risks of 
> cheap adapters, even if they have what purports to be a "CE" mark. 

We looked into agency approval for our induction heaters (fluxeon.com).
 What we found was startling.  Unlike here in the States where the
various approval agencies (UL, ETL, etc) have their marks registered as
trademarks and thus govern how they're used, the CE mark is not
regulated.  Anyone can slap a CE mark on anything.  Only when questioned
by a country's regulating agency does the manufacture have to supply a
file backing up the mark.  That rarely happens.  Thus the CE mark has
become essentially meaningless.

John
Chief Engineer,
Fluxeon Inc.

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Font

[NeonJohn]

I think this is what you're looking for

http://www.neon-john.com/Neon/Nixie_Fonts/Nixotic_index.htm

John


On 08/24/2014 06:38 PM, Steve Ripper wrote:
> HELP!
> 
> Quite some time ago someone created a font file where each letter or number
> was shown inside a vacuum tube when printed.
> 
> Does anyone remember this? I need the font file, or a link to where I can
> find it.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
>  
> 
> Steve Ripper
> 
> steve.rip...@gmail.com
> 
> 248-787-0705
> 
> ttytape signature 20Nov2011
> 
>  
> 

-- 
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[neonixie-l] Re: Sperry radar clock now working!

[NeonJohn]

That has to be the coolest scope clock I've seen in a long time.  Well
done!  The 400hz whine would send me through the roof, though.

John


On 07/14/2014 09:29 AM, neonj...@gmail.com wrote:

> I've got the clock displaying time now. The video shows it upside down on
> the bench so it's at a few minutes past 12. That howling power transformer
> is a distraction, I'll have to wrap it in some sound absorbing material
> especially as I like to add Westminster chimes to my clocks :-).
> 
> The next step is to put it all together and tidy it up!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL3840bE9Cs
> 
> Morris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon size limitations?

[NeonJohn]

OK, I've repurposed 2 gun assemblies.  Let me describe the process.  As
y'all found out the indirectly heated cathode is coated with a
strontium/barium/calcium carbonate mixture.  During processing this is
turned into oxides by simply heating the filament while under vacuum.

When vented to air, the oxides can do one of two things.  Return to
carbonates or absorb moisture and turn to hydroxides.  The later process
essentially ruins the cathode because the hydroxides are hygroscopic
enough to liquefy and drip off the cathode.

The solution is to ensure that CO2 gets to the cathode first.  I do that
by bathing the area where I drill the vent hole with dry CO2.

Once vented, I cut the neck using a hot wire cutter.  The first couple I
did I then sealed some 25mm neon tubing onto the assembly, drew a vacuum
and sealed it off.  I had to heat the assembly in an oven to about 400
deg prior to that to keep the moisture from the flame from condensing in
the cool parts.  That was a pain, involving handling the assembly in
gloves and so on.

what I've done on my last few is cork the open end of the assembly with
a silicone rubber cork and then place it with others in a Cambro
air-tight container that I purged with CO2 and include a desiccant pack.

The Cambro is a restaurant container made of clear polycarb and is very
useful in the shop.

 
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3095/square-clear-food-storage-containers-lids.html

When ready to use, heat the assembly as above, seal it off to the tube
of interest and immediately pull a vacuum.  The vacuum doesn't have to
be high.  Just enough to get rid of the water vapor of combustion.

Include a new getter in the assembly.  I use a 10mm getter with a copper
stem that can be sealed directly into the glass.

Make up your tube, evacuate to as high a vacuum as possible, illuminate
the the filament to yellow red heat and seal off the tube.  Fire the
getter AFTER sealing off the tube using an induction heater and you're
ready to go.

John


On 04/28/2014 10:07 PM, JohnK wrote:
> I was about to reply the same then I started to think about what I
> could actually quote.
> 
> This implies that a cathode gets activated after assemby and
> after/during pumping.
> What is the chemical during construction?
> What is the chemical during operation?
> What is the chemical after later exposure to air?
> If the chemical after later exposure to air is not the same as that
> during construction, can this later chemical be converted to what is
> required?
> 
> I thought I knew this   :-(
> I have just reached down Materials and Techniques for Electron Tubes
> [revised edition of Materials Technology for Electron Tubes], Walter H
> Kohl, 1960,Reinhold.
> 
> John K.
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Instrument Resources of America"
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 9:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Neon size limitations?
> 
> 
>> Also!!!   It is my understanding from being a member of T.C.A. Tube
>> Collectors Association, another Yahoo group, that once the 'cathode' of
>> the gun is exposed to 'air' it is DESTROYED, and can NOT be used
>> again.Ira.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/28/2014 4:18 PM, NeonJohn wrote:
>>>
>>> On 04/28/2014 04:47 PM, Matthew Smith wrote:
>>>> Quoth Tidak Ada at 2014-04-29 06:13 ...
>>>>> I once opened a 50 cm B/W picture tube to make a lamp of it. I
>>>>> carefully
>>>>> packed the tube in thick blankets and then filed off the exhaust
>>>>> nipple.
>>>>> About one minute of hissing and the pressure was equilibrated. No
>>>>> danger
>>>>> at all!
>>>> Aha! I wanted to get the electron gun and base of a CRT, to re-mount
>>>> into a longer accelerator structure - was wondering how to break the
>>>> vacuum safely.
>>> That works but it pretty much destroys the evacuation port for future
>>> use.  I have the same intentions and have collected several B/W guns.
>>> My technique is to use a dental turbine (a dremel will do) and bore an
>>> about half mm hole through the neck downstream of where I plan on
>>> cutting it.  That way I can re-open the tubulation in a controlled
>>> manner and reuse it.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon size limitations?

[NeonJohn]

On 04/28/2014 04:47 PM, Matthew Smith wrote:
> Quoth Tidak Ada at 2014-04-29 06:13 ...
>> I once opened a 50 cm B/W picture tube to make a lamp of it. I carefully
>> packed the tube in thick blankets and then filed off the exhaust nipple.
>> About one minute of hissing and the pressure was equilibrated. No danger
>> at all!
> 
> Aha! I wanted to get the electron gun and base of a CRT, to re-mount
> into a longer accelerator structure - was wondering how to break the
> vacuum safely.

That works but it pretty much destroys the evacuation port for future
use.  I have the same intentions and have collected several B/W guns.
My technique is to use a dental turbine (a dremel will do) and bore an
about half mm hole through the neck downstream of where I plan on
cutting it.  That way I can re-open the tubulation in a controlled
manner and reuse it.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon size limitations?

[NeonJohn]

On 04/28/2014 08:05 AM, B Otto wrote:
> Reading the thread on "fake gigantic nixies" got me thinking about
> the possibilities or REAL gigantic neon applications. Is there a
> practical limit on how large a neon indicator could be? Using
> traditional methods, would it be possible to make a neon glow lamp
> from say a five gallon carboy?

One could but it would be a fairly dangerous object.  You'd have about
as much volume enclosing a vacuum as a large picture tube but without
the engineered safeguards against implosion.  I'd be a bit nervous being
around the thing.

John

> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Strobotron

[NeonJohn]

Nifty.  I have two of the general radio Strobotachs that used the neon
tubes.  I'm reversing direction on one.  I'm putting solid state
internals in it with a microprocessor to read the big pot and set the
speed.  That will get rid of the drift that plagues this model.

Best part is, I can fit the microprocessor without stripping out any of
the tube guts other than removing the tubes so the unit can be restored
to original if desired.

I also have a modern StroboTach.  Now that thing is slick.  I picked up
6 spare conducted arc strobe tubes for practically nothing at a hamfest.
 NIB.  I 'bout freaked when I saw the company now making the StroboTachs
charging $500 for a replacement flash tube.

John


On 03/08/2014 11:42 AM, Grahame Marsh wrote:
> 
> http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/strobotron.html
> 
> Enjoy
> Grahame
> 

-- 
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http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
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Re: [neonixie-l] Help with upgrading my soldering iron

[NeonJohn]

On 02/16/2014 01:12 PM, blkadder wrote:
> Greetings All,
> 
> I am hoping you can help me make a decision.  I have been using my Radio 
> Shack 25w soldering iron for a few years now, and it is time to upgrade.  I 
> have been scouring boards and other Interwebz sites, and I think I have 
> narrowed it down to two.

> Aoyue 968A SMD Digital Rework 
> Station

I've been using the Aoyue station for 4 or 5 years now.  It's pretty
decent.  The hot air part is great with one small exception.  The
controller loses its setpoint on any power glitch.  The soldering iron
is OK.  It's a bit unwieldy with that smoke sucker tube, even after the
tube is removed.  I Dremeled the tube boss off the handle and then it
was fine.

The vacuum pickup is totally worthless.  Just toss it in the garbage and
get a dedicated one if you need that functionality.

We buy our stuff here:

http://sra-solder.com/

He stocks plenty of spare parts.  I've had to replace the iron once
after the temperature sensor went bad.  Quick service and as cheap as
Amazon.

John


-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Interesting document on Krypton-doped nixies,,,

[NeonJohn]

On 02/10/2014 10:15 PM, GastonP wrote:
> Did any of you try with good old Thorium?
> I have been playing with some gas lamp mantles, the retail item that 
> contains more Thorium, and they emit a very happy dose of alpha and beta 
> particles. Way more than what you get from uranium marbles.

Might work.  I'd ash several, mix the ash with some epoxy or RTV and
apply to the back of a tube.

Coleman caved to the radiophobes several years ago and removed the
thorium.  The only one I know of that still contains Th is this one:

http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/century_mantle.jpg

The "made in India" and the radioactive material warning are the clues.
 Last time I checked these were still available at Wallyworld.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Interesting document on Krypton-doped nixies,,,

[NeonJohn]

On 02/10/2014 09:32 AM, Tidak Ada wrote:
> But Ra228 will be more efficient in this case, for it is a ß-radiator.
> However, it only has an half life of 69 months.

Actually no.  Ra-226 in equilibrium with its decay chain is an
"everything emitter".  It was widely used in tubes such as radar T/R
switchs before cheaper and cleaner isotopes became available.  The most
common is Ni-63 with a 100 year half-life.  I have a 1st Gulf War
vintage nerve gas detector that uses Ni-63 and of course the venerable
Krytron.  I've never heard of it being used in a display tube.  Kr-85,
being a gas, is much easier to license and handle than any solid isotope.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Interesting document on Krypton-doped nixies,,,

[NeonJohn]

On 02/10/2014 09:30 AM, Kent Stevens wrote:
> Could Americium-241 be used from an old smoke detector since it emits both 
> Alpha and low level Gamma?

I haven't tried it but I would expect it to work fine.  The alpha
particles should slam into the glass and generate enough Bremsstrahlung
X-rays to do the job.

I'm not a safety nazi and I love experimenting with radiation and
radioactive materials.  However I do have to urge some caution here.
Am-241 in the body is a bone seeker and a powerful carcinogen.  The
isotope is "bonded" (I use that term loosely) to the ion chamber
electrode by a few microns of gold, thin enough to allow the alphas out
but thick enough to contain most of the material itself.

Some Am escapes the gold coating through recoil from the disintegration
of other atoms nearby.  So in a detector that is more than a few years
old there will be some loose Am around the emitter.

Also, the gold film can be breached by the mere swipe of a finger across
the surface.

Bottom line: it's easy to loose the stuff and it's quite dangerous once
loosed.  If you don't have an alpha-sensitive survey meter please be
very careful.  Wear gloves and preferably a respirator.  Lay down a
sheet of poly on your work surface and when you're finished, carefully
roll it up and toss it in the trash.

I have processed a large number of detectors to recover the Am so I
speak from experience.  I use a wet process but still I use gloves and a
HEPA respirator. I've never found any contamination in the respirator
filter but I still wear it just in case.

John


-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Interesting document on Krypton-doped nixies,,,

[NeonJohn]

Those UV LEDs generate a LOT of UV.  I use one as a color tester for my
neon shop (most colors of neon tubing look white when off).  Glad you
didn't hurt your eyes.  Problem is, the glass is opaque to UV.

If you don't mind spending the money you can reactivate the tubes.  One
can buy a microcurie of Cs-137 without a license.  It can be had epoxied
to the head of a pin.  1uCi is more than enough to strike a couple of
tubes.  Position the source in an inconspicuous place between two tubes
and it'll work for both of them.  Cs-137 emits a good healthy 661keV
gamma ray that will easily penetrate the glass and cause bunches of
secondary electrons.

I just tried this using a 30 year old source (down to half a uCi) on a
flickering neon bulb on some old test equipment.  I just held the source
against the plastic lens and the lamp glow went steady.

The only downside is that a pin source will run you about $60.  If
anyone is interested in this route, I'll dig up some names of some
suppliers.

John


On 02/10/2014 05:10 AM, Nick wrote:
> Some time ago I was playing with XC18s (bought a large number many years 
> ago when they were very cheap) - they have a similar problem so I 
> experimented with uranium marbles and UV LEDs...
> 
> I wasn't very "quantitative", but from a qualitative standpoint, the 
> marbles made no difference and at that time so-called "UV" LEDs didn't seem 
> to have much UV content - more just purple...
> 
> Maybe things have improved since then and UV LEDs are a possible answer. 
> All you need is a good source of high energy photons to initiate 
> ionisation...
> 
> Nick
> 

-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
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http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
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Re: [neonixie-l] 2 Hickok Ford Vehicle Simulator Analog computers

[NeonJohn]

On 02/03/2014 02:17 PM, Matthew Smith wrote:

> John - any idea of what the Nixies in the Sequoyah were for? Voltmeters?

Yes, voltmeters.  They could be jumpered into any part of the simulation
circuitry.  As I understand it, they were used primarily to set up the
initial parameters more precisely than the verniers could.  The outputs
were all Brush pressurized ink strip-chart recorders.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: 2 Hickok Ford Vehicle Simulator Analog computers

[NeonJohn]

We had an analog computer at the Sequoyah Nuclear plant that simulated
reactor core dynamics.  It had several banks of Nixie tube readouts,
several strip chart recorders, probably 75 precision 10-turn pots with
vernier dials and a big patch board.  The patch board allowed different
sections to be patched together - programmed - for different
simulations.  It was a quick-release affair so that several could be
kept pre-programmed.

There are no sensors.  The unit is programmed with a set of initial
conditions, on this unit using punch cards, and then started.  The only
things missing from these units are the patch cables - and the thick
instruction manual on how to set them up.

What is interesting is that Sequoyah now has a mainframe dedicated to
calculating core dynamics - what a desktop analog computer could do faster.

John


On 02/03/2014 09:55 AM, Nick wrote:
> Fantastic... boat anchors!
> 
> What on Earth would you do with them? They're missing all the external 
> sensors etc.
> 
> Nick
> 

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Putting a film on tubes...

[NeonJohn]

On 01/17/2014 04:41 AM, astroschmidt wrote:
> Hi Nick,
> 
> that could have been me. 
> In Germany the glass-paint that I use to colour my nixies and VFD-tubes is 

Here in the US there are two very easy methods that I use to color neon
tubes.

The first is Krylon "stained glass in a can".  Available at craft stores
such as Hobby Lobby.  It's like regular Krylon except that the color is
a transparent dye instead of a pigment.

I use that for quickie jobs and jobs that aren't expected to have to
last very long.

For very durable coloring, and this should be available everywhere
people build custom cars, I use the color coat of the candy apple car
paint process.  The stuff I use is a concentrated dye that comes in a
pint can.  It is added to the clear automotive paint system of your choice.

For normal stuff I use ordinary acrylic enamel.  Lacquer would be even
more durable and shiny but it has to be polished, something practical
for Nixies but not neon signs.  For extraordinary stuff such as neon
that goes on a tower sign, I use polyurethane epoxy paint (caution: VERY
nasty stuff - supplied air respirator mandatory).  This two part system
is almost bullet-proof.

In any case, I apply the dyed clear coat with an air brush.  I like to
use fairly thin paint and apply several coats.  More uniform color than
trying to do it with just one or two coats.

Clear red neon sprayed with candy apple red makes a deep red that looks
like you could swim into it.  Even better color than classic colored glass.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Exporting Nixie watches to Russia

[NeonJohn]

David,

Contact my partner in Fluxeon, Garett Churchill, g...@fluxeon.com.  Among
other things he handles shipping.  We've sold quite a few of our $700+
induction heaters into Russia so he knows how to do it.  I only do
engineering so I don't know the details but I think he uses DHL.  Just
write and ask him.  He'll be glad to help.

John


On 01/16/2014 11:33 AM, David Forbes wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> I've been exporting a good number of Nixie watches around the world
> lately. This is good, except when I have trouble getting the shipment to
> stay shipped.
> 
> There seems to be trouble sending anything over $200 to a private
> address in Russia via FedEx (USPS won't deliver them at all). They have
> refused my packages on more than one occasion.
> 
> Do any of you have advice or experience that might help?
> 
> Thanks in advance.

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: What to do with a 0B3 regulator tube ?

[NeonJohn]

On 01/10/2014 08:01 PM, John Smith wrote:
> This is getting interesting...never have seen a pure green ionized gas.
> There is a possibility it may have been a hybrid gas mixture.  Since Helium
> produces a pale yellow and mercury will produce a blue color...possibly it
> was a mixture of a few types of gases.  Also some ionized gas will produce
> different colors at different energy (voltage ) levels.  Pressure also
> enters the equation. As far as any commercial vacuum tube regulators I have
> yet to see a pure green color.

What we neonists would give for a pure green gas!  Unfortunately there
isn't one.  Krypton does a rather boring greenish tinged dull white.
Neon has an excitation state that decays with a green photon but it's
very hard to get it that excited without laser light.  Copper ion lasers
do a beautiful green plasma but that's not something that could be used
for display purposes.

Unfortunately for the color green, it's either colored glass or phosphor.

John


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Re: [neonixie-l] Gottlieb VFDs

[NeonJohn]

On 01/07/2014 05:25 PM, Quixotic Nixotic wrote:
> I was given three of these Gottlieb VFDs recently. They are quite
> cute chunky 1 inch / 25.4mm digits, but what can I do with twin 3
> digits? I guess there is a 1,000s dot on there too, so a counter of
> some kind is obvious. On board UDN6118As.
> 
> Ideas please,

Just as soon as I can get it posted to my web site I'm going to
open-source the interval timer that I designed for our (fluxeon.com)
induction heaters.  It uses an Atmel processor, 3 LED display and a
quadrature shaft encoder to enter the time interval.  Easy enough to
substitute the VFD for the LEDs.  You could use one set of 3 digits to
display the setpoint and the other set to show the count-down.  Only a
minor change in the firmware.

If you're interested, I'll push the priority of editing my site a little
higher.

John



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Re: [neonixie-l] Tube making supplies

[NeonJohn]

On 01/04/2014 10:01 AM, chuck richards wrote:
> Thanks for posting that John!  I have checked their
> site a few times before, and it looks like they've
> now added many more items.

You're welcome.

> 
> By the way, have you put any more of the 4-wheeled
> boom boxes out of commission lately?  Always interested
> to hear more about documented kills.

Unfortunately, no.  For those just now tuning in, what Chuck is
referring to is an EMP weapon I built using 4 microwave oven magnetrons,
a waveguide and feed horn and a high voltage capacitor discharge pulsed
power supply.  It was designed to kill the stereo in a car that drove
past my restaurant every day with the boom boom stereo turned up loud
enough that it vibrated stuff off the shelves in the dining room.

It was very effective.  One shot, one kill.  I pressed the button from
my roof-mounted perch where I could aim the horn down through his
passenger side window and...  Nothing.  Silence.  Peace.  Stalled
engine.  The engine restarted but the stereo was down for the count.

Anyway, between the time I moved up here to Tellico and the time I
started moving my shop and lab, my health deteriorated to the point that
I was about 6 months into the move, about half done when scrappers broke
into the building and stole everything.  My neon shop, the electronics
lab, even the copper wiring in the walls.  All gone.

I've built a new (much smaller) lab in a spare bedroom where I design
induction heaters (http://www.fluxeon.com).  I'm saving my money to put
a prefab building on my adjacent lot and that will be for the neon and
glass lab.  Maybe about next fall.

I had a friend donate almost a complete neon shop to the effort so the
equipment is packed in boxes in the basement, awaiting the new building.

The health problem turned out to be a collapsed lung and paralyzed
diaphragm caused by a bulging disk at C5.  That's where the nerves that
drive the left diaphragm muscle exit the spine.  I'm strapped to an
oxygen concentrator but other than that, OK.

Speaking of oxygen concentrators, I had 5 of them in my neon shop.  4
got stolen.  I used them to enrich the air going to my gas/air fires.
That made the fires hot enough to work Pyrex without having to have a
pure oxygen source.  Since they sell used for $2-300 and typically make
5 liters per minute of 90% oxygen, that's a very cheap method of hotting
up your glassworking fires.

John


-- 
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[neonixie-l] Tube making supplies

[NeonJohn]

Hey guys,

This came across the Neon-l list.

http://electrontubestore.com/

They sell components for people who make their own tubes.  I've made
some specialty tubes such as X-ray tubes and BF3 neutron detection tubes
but I had no idea there were enough others to support a business.

Anyway, this should be useful for Nixie tube makers.

John

-- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Quick hello

[NeonJohn]

Sorry but I don't know right now.  Next on my project list.  Others here
are sure to know, though.

John


On 11/26/2013 08:08 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote:
> John, do you have a chip with a built in RTC you'd recommend?  I'm
> embarrassed to admit I didn't know about them, and have typically used a
> cheap Dallas RTC on the protoboard clocks I have built as xmas gifts.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:14 PM, NeonJohn  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 11/26/2013 06:06 PM, Matt Wetherill wrote:
>>
>>> I thought I might try something driven by an Arduino - it'll be quite
>>> a learning curve but should keep me busy ;)
>>
>> Hi Matt,
>>
>> Welcome back.  Mine may not be a real popular opinion but I do NOT like
>> the Arduino.  It's mangled sorta-C++ is a pain, though you can program
>> in C except for some libraries.  It's expensive for what you get and
>> quite short on I/O pins.  Incidentally, if you just want to play with
>> the Arduino style of doing things, Digikey sells the programmed chip for
>> $5.  Just add 5 volts, a TTL serial interface and a clock and there you go.
>>
>> I suggest looking at one of the several chips that have battery-backed
>> RTCs built-in.  Get one in DIP format and assemble something on a proto
>> board.
>>
>> BTW, in the next week or two I'm going to be open sourcing (hardware and
>> software) a nifty little count-down counter that I designed for one of
>> our products.  It uses the ATmega8515 which isn't a very interesting
>> chip but it has lots of I/O pins which is what I needed.  I heavily
>> document my code, especially that which gets released so it would be a
>> good starting point.  I'll announce here when I get it finished (boards
>> to be here on Black Friday :-)
>>
>> John
>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> John DeArmond
>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
>> http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
>> http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
>> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
>> PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77
>>
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>> .
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>>
> 

-- 
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http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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Re: [neonixie-l] Quick hello

[NeonJohn]

On 11/26/2013 06:06 PM, Matt Wetherill wrote:

> I thought I might try something driven by an Arduino - it'll be quite
> a learning curve but should keep me busy ;)

Hi Matt,

Welcome back.  Mine may not be a real popular opinion but I do NOT like
the Arduino.  It's mangled sorta-C++ is a pain, though you can program
in C except for some libraries.  It's expensive for what you get and
quite short on I/O pins.  Incidentally, if you just want to play with
the Arduino style of doing things, Digikey sells the programmed chip for
$5.  Just add 5 volts, a TTL serial interface and a clock and there you go.

I suggest looking at one of the several chips that have battery-backed
RTCs built-in.  Get one in DIP format and assemble something on a proto
board.

BTW, in the next week or two I'm going to be open sourcing (hardware and
software) a nifty little count-down counter that I designed for one of
our products.  It uses the ATmega8515 which isn't a very interesting
chip but it has lots of I/O pins which is what I needed.  I heavily
document my code, especially that which gets released so it would be a
good starting point.  I'll announce here when I get it finished (boards
to be here on Black Friday :-)

John

> 

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Atmel clock/timer projects

[NeonJohn]

Thanks to TVB who gave me a gentle nudge in the direction of measuring
instead of relying on the data sheet, my timer is working perfectly.
The data sheet formula for calculating the output compare register value
is simply wrong.

What I did was program the output compare pin back on and then let the
processor do nothing but generate that 1ms interval.  I set the pin to
toggle on interrupt so that produced a 500. Hz signal.  Or at least
it should have.

I then adjusted the output compare register value until I got 499.
Hz.  I already knew the quartz oscillator was a touch low in frequency
so that was perfect.

I just finished a 999 second run.  Accurate to a millisecond.

Here's the code that works.  I need to prune out a bunch of
commented-out stuff and make it pretty but it does work.  I'll put it
and a schematic on my website shortly.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/81715047/jgd_fixed_timer_code_11_05_2013.zip

Thanks, guys, for the help,

John


-- 
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http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
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Re: [neonixie-l] Atmel clock/timer projects

[NeonJohn]

On 11/04/2013 07:00 PM, Frank Bemelman wrote:

> Assume you have an interrupt every 57 uS.
> 
> 
> [untested code]
> 
> int timervalue = 0;
> int msektimer = 0;
> .
> .
> .
> 
> timer_int()
> { timervalue += 57; // add the uS that have passed since previous interrupt
>  if(timervalue>1000) // a millisecond + some extra uS have past
>  { timervalue -= 1000; // keep the remaining uS
>msektimer++; // keep track of total milliseconds
>  }
> }
> 
> Keeping track of seconds can be done in a similar way, just expand code.
> Sure there is some jitter on the timervalues, but a jitter of 57uS
> is usually not a problem for household purposes.

Clever.  I have been thinking about slowing the interrupts down
dramatically but I can't generate a precise decimal time interval that
way.  I'd been thinking about an algorithm but yours just solved it for
me.  Thanks much

John


-- 
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http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
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Re: [neonixie-l] Atmel clock/timer projects

[NeonJohn]

On 11/04/2013 06:14 PM, Adam Jacobs wrote:
> Hi John,
>   I haven't done anything with AVR chips in a couple of years now, but I
> can only add that I've felt your pain. I built a lot of clocks using AVR
> parts, in a variety of designs and with a variety of AVR chips... and
> they all had strange repeatable timer issues. I do think that the AVR
> parts might miss interrupts on occasion... are you disabling the timer
> interrupts at any point in your code? I think that you usually need to
> disable interrupts when interacting with i2c parts, etc...
> -disable interrupt
> -dump command to peripheral part
> -enable interrupt

A, I'm glad it's not just me and that I'm not going crazy  :-)

The only time I disable interrupts is to write to EEPROM and that's only
to store the last value for retrieval during the next power-up.

The only problem I have with the idea of random missed interrupts is
that my code will repeat, say, a 100 second interval down to fractions
of a microsecond.  May be off by a whole second but it sure repeats.

The next thing I'm going to do is to re-connect the output pin to the
CTC match interrupt and measure that with my counter.  See how much
jitter there is in that.

Grahame and others, the code as it exists right now is here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/81715047/jgd_timer_code_11_04_2013.zip
> 
> Like that... and that sort of thing is what I always assumed was the
> culprit. Eventually, I decided that it simply wasn't worth it for me to
> implement solid clock code in AVR and switched to using standalone clock
> chips. I like the Maxim DS1307, since it comes in 8-pin DIP package and
> is i2c. That way, I can worry about the fun functionality in my AVR code
> and leave the dreary clock accuracy optimization to the birds.

I would have put an RTC on the board but there is absolutely no space
left.  This is a retrofit to an existing product and the board is having
to use otherwise unused space on the back side of the front panel.  I
already have my board house a little miffed. :-)

> 
> FYI, I did find that my clock accuracy increased if I lowered the
> frequency of the AVR. 12mhz ATTiny2313 was much less accurate than the
> same part with the DIV8 fuse set. I assume because a 1.5mhz clock AVR
> would need to interrupt far less often in order to generate the desired
> 0.1 second resolution.

Interesting.  I had intended on running this chip at 8MHz but I couldn't
find a crystal nor an oscillator physically small enough to fit the
space available so I'm running at 16MHz.  Maybe I'll try an 8MHz part
and let it just dangle for the prototype.

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far.  You've certainly given me
some stuff to think about.

John


-- 
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Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
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[neonixie-l] Atmel clock/timer projects

[NeonJohn]

I'm working on a simple count-down timer that will time from 0.1 to 999
seconds with 0.1 second resolution.  I'm using an Atmel ATmega8515,
probably not the best chip but I have a ton of 'em from another project.

My problem is, it's not behaving anything like I expect.  Up to about 10
seconds, the time interval is about a tenth of a second too long.
Between 11 and about 60 seconds, it's spot on.  At 999 seconds, it has
lost 3 seconds.

I'm doing things rather conventionally.  Timer 0 is set up in CTC mode
to count down the 16MHz clock at 1ms intervals.  There's a state machine
that stores what the timer is doing (idling, being set, counting,
finished, etc) but the actual assertion and de-assertion of the output
pin is done in the ISR.  It should therefore have millisecond accuracy.

The erroroneous time is repeatable from one run to the next down to the
millisecond so I know that I'm not missing interrupts.  I've also
verified that by toggling an unused pin inside the ISR and timed it with
a high precision HP counter/timer.

So my first question to the list is, can you point me to some Atmel
clock code in C that I can study to see what I might be doing wrong?

Later I may post the code and ask for someone to look at it but I really
want to solve this problem for myself.

This is a timer for our (Fluxeon's) Roy induction heater but I plan on
open sourcing the thing - hardware and software - once I get it working.
 So it needs to work right AND the code has to look good :-)

Thanks.
John

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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