Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
No.. Dreamweaver Can work w/ wine, however it does not work as quickly, nor is it as functional as on windows. (I personally coulnd't get it to install.) I have managed to get a copy of flash5 installed on my windows partition working with wine(using real win95 dlls), its not really usable as wine gets into a knot with the daft palette/tool thingies and spends 90% of its time redrawing them. -- Rick Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News Resources - http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x231E1CEA Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Kaj Haulrich wrote: Pascal, try "KreateCD". Way easier. If it isn't on your distro, try : http://www.kreatecd.de/download.php They have a "ready-to-go" RPM for Mandrake 8.0 and 8.1. I suppose it's on the cooker as well. Thanks! I'll try it this week-end. Pascal Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
OK, I got it now. Anyone who has positive input to your thread is a geek or power user Darn. Guess I buy the next box at Kmart. When Mandrake works then, can I please just be a user? Lee P.S. My real nightmares are all MS experiences from my dark past. Hi Lee, Thanks for your info, but you are a Power-User by the sound of the box specs! :-) I'm trying to determine if Linux - especially Mandrake is true to the old idea of not needing a monster box to run. I know of Linux Servers that are running on Steam-powered old things and just don't fall over. The sad thing is that I don't know anyone not at least a p/time geek who has made it all go without enough research and effort for a PhD. And of course, you mentioned 8.2 - which isn't even there for us chickens. Altho I noticed it got a couple of accolades on fixing earlier problems in reviews. The 8513 Chipset? The X Motherboard? Onboard sound, video? MSI Boards? (Models?) Asus Bds? (Models?) Anyone got Win4lin going in one go? Anyone got WINE to run anything? FrontPage? Has it ever happened? In a word.mostly 8.2 fired up everything nicely. Soyo Dragon Plus Radeon 7200 AMD Athlon 1900 Only problem isn't a Linux problem and I've said it before. I will probably have a WinBox 'til the cows come home because, in my business I have to communicate with people in their own (wordprocesser) language. When I get a letter in Word, I have to respond in Word to avoid obvious problems with recipients. WordPerfect in WordPerfect, etc. Frankly, I don't see where that is a problem. Linux is a tool, not a religion. It is doing faithfully everything that I expect, and did so right out of the ISO. Would that the rest of life were so simple. Every once in a while, I stumble around in the dark and either install a program or crash the computer, just for sport. Crashes and other self-inflicted wounds are becoming less frequent as Mandrake and I both evolve. More fun than a bowl of pollywogs. Lee -- Registered Linux user #223705 Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Lee and folks, - Original Message - From: Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? OK, I got it now. Anyone who has positive input to your thread is a geek or power user No, No! Anyone who has something positive to say will help give me heart to try it all yet again! But I need it to be someone who isn't an expert at it :-) Example: Many centuries ago, I hired a young kid to help me with a small problem I was having. I didn't know you couldn't do it so ... I was interfacing $5,000 Osborne Executive microcomputers (Transportable P.C.) to $55,000 Photoypesetting computers because they could do so much more. So, I was aiming for a $5000 really useful Terminal, instead of paying $23,000 for a real Terminal. The kid read machine code directly, like I read a Dunn's Report. ( Something most Software Engineers today have no idea of its even existence - but it is the ones and zeros end stuff.) He was very lonely. Nobody really understood anything he was talking about. I introduced him to some VHT (very high tec) people in the Big computer industry. He was mightily unimpressed. He worked 18 hours a day for a couple of weeks and then went away - found something more interesting somewhere else. But I had the first input system of its kind in the whole world - even the manufacturers couldn't work out how the kid did it. He did the analysis determined the technical job) programmed it, built the circuitboards, even devised a cable signal cleaner. Never even seen a Modem. I showed him how to use it and roughly what it did. He went and made up new ones for my branches that *really* worked - they were the first smart modems I ever knew of.. Could not type or spell to save his life. Could hardly read. You had to talk to him and show him what you wanted but once he understood... Now, he was the True Geek. Like the guys who think writing advanced computer games is easy. So geekness is a many faceted thing. It isn't the kid who knows a bit more than the true Newbie and quotes what he has read /been told, it is a state of mind - AND a knack with the tin boxes. But at the other end are the simple users - people like me who never want to see a command line if there is no reason to - who simply want to plug it in and go. Even Doze 98SE can do that. It can be done. Mandrake can do it. All that is necessary is to stop trying to be all things to all people. Put out a RETAIL product for the rest of us. We don't need Servers in a distro for God's sake! Or 5000 utilities that even the laws of statistics tell us will have a 50% no-go rate. We need an approved list of bits that work - like MS does, but on a smaller scale. We need small entrepreneurs who will put together setup boxes for people. OR help by installing it on existing systems - putting in Win4Lin (next version!) if necessary for already exposed users. But mainly putting in the equivalent, or literally, Wordperfect Office. 99% of all prospects out there only want/need to get on the net, write a letter, run simple accounts and have a source of help on line AT THEIR LEVEL. OK, I guess I AM an evangelist in a way. but I have a dream... well, a nightmare anyway - called Dot NET. Cheers, Him Again John Rigby Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Todd,
Thanks for the info.
But you are right you are disqualified! :-)
Home built box indeed! :-0
- Original Message -
From: Todd Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Everything was easy. Things that have gone wrong have done so because I
tinker. It's the same thing I did with Windows95, and that's how I learn.
I have a feeling I'll be disqualified from your survey because I've used
acronyms and specified models.
Actually, though, putting a tinthing together is far easier than the
software side today.
You are right. If the Newbie is truly new to the PC - it will all be the
same - horrific! :-)
I had a friend who developed a serious reflex problem which left him able to
handle hitting keys but not the dreaded rodent.
I printed him out the standard keyboard shortcuts for W98 and then installed
some specials for him and macros.
Now I envy him!
His sister, a totally conditioned Apple-eater was finally shocked into
silence with the wizardry now possible on the derided PC.! :-{
Interestingly, it was the heart of the Apple success that it followed the
Ford Motor Co principle:
Any colour you like so long as it's black - coupled with the outrageous
lies of the totally brilliant marketing of the things. There were no
options, no choices, no nothing. Even the screens were mono long after the
world had moved on. BUT compared to how you were presented with a P.C. they
were SIMPLE TO USE because there were very few things it could do. Choices
were extremely limited.
This is what Linux needs. To reach the non-geek market. There are very few
geeks comparatively and they tend to be poor ( :-) ) There are squillions
of people out there whose first reaction will be to price. Nobody can do a
low-level low-cost deal like a Linux box can.
All we have to do is get it to work together by distinguishing the
prospects:
geeks and users
two TOTALLY different markets requiring a totally different approach and
product.
Cheers!
John
There aren't any great teachers, there are great absorbing subjects of the
time and greatly interested students. Without the latter there is no former
Kilneth.
Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft?
Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
-Original Message- From: john rigby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 13 March 2002 10:34 To: Lee; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? It can be done. Mandrake can do it. All that is necessary is to stop trying to be all things to all people. Put out a RETAIL product for the rest of us. We don't need Servers in a distro for God's sake! Or 5000 utilities that even the laws of statistics tell us will have a 50% no-go rate. We need an approved list of bits that work - like MS does, but on a smaller scale. We need small entrepreneurs who will put together setup boxes for people. OR help by installing it on existing systems - putting in Win4Lin (next version!) if necessary for already exposed users. But mainly putting in the equivalent, or literally, Wordperfect Office. 99% of all prospects out there only want/need to get on the net, write a letter, run simple accounts and have a source of help on line AT THEIR LEVEL. Music to my ears! Speaking as a relative newcomer to the world of Linux, I was at first impressed by how many applications came with LM8.1, then dismayed by how few actually worked out of the box, or did anything useful. I was reminded of the PCs that you can buy in England from a company called Time - the HDs are bloated with loads of applications such as another million indispensable fonts (release 3). Sounds impressive in the adverts, but that's it. I don't have much patience for a lot of the tosh that litters my installation CDs - for example, none of the CD burner software worked, most had absolutely no documentation, and many of the games seemed to crash straight away. And the games that did work... well, they made Solitaire look exciting. A retail release as suggested by John would be great for me - leave out all the server stuff *AND* any alpha/beta releases *AND* anything that's undocumented/has no help menus. Some people like the fun of getting an undocumented cd-burner GUI to run. I just want to burn MP3s. Yes, the success of Linux is down to people who like to tinker with things to get them to work, and no, I am not trying in any way to denigrate what they are doing. What I'm trying to say is that I totally agree with John that Mandrake can't be all things to all people - I'd say that to seriously appeal to users rather than geeks, you need a different version of the product: a cut-down version, not one with extra/different packages. By analogy, try this: You buy Windows in a retail pack. You try the included utilities, one is rubbish. You curse Microsoft. Then you download some shareware to try out, and it either works or it's rubbish. If it's rubbish, you shrug your shoulders and move on. Same rules should apply in the Mandrake world: everything that's on the retail Cd should work (especially if we're supposed to be paying for it nowadays). After that we'll take our chances with all the free RPMs/sources out there ;-) Just my EUR0.02's worth. Richard *** This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named recipient(s) only and are confidential and may be privileged. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or disclose them or any part of their contents to any person or organisation; please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and its attachments from your computer system. Please note that Internet communications are not necessarily secure and may be changed, intercepted or corrupted. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us and we will not accept any liability for any such changes, interceptions or corruptions. Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and its attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. Copyright in this e-mail and attachments created by us belongs to Littlewoods. Littlewoods takes steps to prohibit the transmission of offensive, obscene or discriminatory material. If this message contains inappropriate material please forward the e-mail intact to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be investigated. Statements and opinions contained in this e-mail may not necessarily represent those of Littlewoods. Please note that e-mail communication may be monitored. Registered office: Littlewoods Retail Limited, Sir John Moores Building, 100 Old Hall Street, Liverpool, L70 1AB Registered no: 421258 http://www.littlewoods.com *** Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
Shane, You are being very, very rude and are thus, probably very, very young. I will however answer you. The reason the *quiet moneymakers* use Frontpage and the early 98 version at that, is because THE WORLD uses I. E. and I.E. compatibility. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't design expressly for I.E. It is 90%+ of the users. ( Professional real world marketers tend to look to these sort of things) No package known to me or that group, can do the cheap and quick product - that the world demands - the way it can, and then allow a small client to edit simply, on his own, using the freebie FP Express. Finally, the whole point *is* that I have had completely untrained people in the 100's install/upgrade their own Windows 98 on a simply prepared box over the years. ( I founded and ran a very large computer users group for many years). FACT: I and obviously, *very few others* have ever successfully been able to comfortably install Linux as is being proved on this list every day, by the great range of problems. I am returning to Mandrake's excellent community support once again, to see if it has evolved into something I personally can use and recommend to my friends. It appears that 8.1 was a big improvement over 8.0 and 8.2 beta is claimed to be even better. The vast majority of responses have been sincere attempts to enlighten me toward the chances of finding M8+ useful in a real business environment. Unfortunately, there are still very few users seriously using it except for fun and their own amusement/challenges. Serious use of it requires access to working/workable business programs at least equal to those in the vast majority. So far there seems to be none. Which leaves the Win4lin option. John The only people to really fear are those who know that they are right - especially those who are not Kilneth - Original Message - From: shane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? bullshit, really, seriously, FP is good only for creating MS documents for MSbrowsers, and anyone who thinks that is all you need will have a rude awakening when a combination of linux/mac/bsd users and AOL using gecko as their engine puts IE back under 40% on the browser share. front page is to the webpages what oil spills are to the environment, a big stinking mess that someone will have to clean or will just keep on destroying. i was taking you seriously until now. lets get one thing straight. anyone who can install any other OS can install linux. yes this leaves some people out, but those people couldn't install windows either. shall we make them all use type writers? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
John I've followed this thread for a while and think I may be what you are looking for. I'm 58 yrs old and have a PII 266 with 64kb. Last year i bought mandrake 8.0 power pack, i stuck it in the cd and eveything went fine. I have KDE, Internet connection, web browsing, Star office, xmms, gimp, bluefish, gcash and loads of other things, also proper sound and all with vey little hassle although its a little slow. For me it was just as easy as M$98 which was my only other os install experience. Long live mandrake regards Pete Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
You know, I didn't want to say anything about this, however I should just for relevence. I currently do both PHP and ASP programming for various customers, as well as myself. I use Frontpage for quite a few things. Yes it does produce SOME bad code, however 2002 does produce acceptable code for the basic layout. I do alot of rough work, and table planning and outlining in frontpage, just because I find it handles it better then Dreamweaver. Now, I'll admit that I don't polish these pages w/ Frontpage, that would be silly as it honestly doesn't do a great job. But if I didn't want to polish these pages they would be more then acceptable in either Mozzilla, or IE. I personally found FP the nicest on code I put in manually. Too often I've opened up a page in Dreamweaver and have it start to reformat the HTML code on me. Not only that, but I really like the window switching that was enabled in 2002 for multiple windows open. When I'm doing mass edits (5+ files) I don't like having all 5 windows open w/ Dreamweaver... it becomes very clutered. The Child Window system of Fronpage makes life alot easier. As for the world running on unix, linux, freebsd, and other direvitives (sp?) that's very true. It's also true that quite a few LARGE companies who license a lot of microsoft products have a lot of intranet servers running IIS just because it's easy for them to set up their windows file share server with IIS for the various groups that want to have webpages. Ohh... one last thing. For the person who said that really web designers hand code HTML. That's fine. You code your complex table structure manually. I personally will do it in a WYSIWYG editor myself... for me it takes way less time. Nelson On Wed, 2002-03-13 at 10:39, sda wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:28:50PM +1000, john rigby wrote: Shane, You are being very, very rude and are thus, probably very, very young. I will however answer you. The reason the *quiet moneymakers* use Frontpage and the early 98 version at that, is because THE WORLD uses I. E. and I.E. compatibility. You really are incorrect SIR. Being that Im in publishing and that includes divisons that do *complete* Web design as well as SFX for filmwork and tradional publishing I'm qualified enough to give a rebuttal. I've been in this business for 15 years. Nobody and I mean nobody, uses FrontPage in the professional world. It would be like people doing professsional print design using M$ Pubisher as opposed to Quark, Framemaker, InDesign and PageMaker. The reason? The code generated by FrontPage is atrocious and only works `sometimes' with IE, and ASP, the whole WORLD doensn't use ASP or MIIS. Most professional web design is done by designers who do the nice look using DreamWeaver and/or GoLive. They both produce reasonably clean html. Some designers actually use something like HomePage, or BBEdit as they prefer to tweak raw code. Then the look is handed over to the second tier who do the backend stuff, the programmers, who tie it all into PHP,ASP for serverside dbases using Perl, Python and XSLT, in additon to other fine languages. Very few of these operations run on M$ software. So FrontPage is useless, and additonal time is spent fixing up the atrocious results, which isn't preferable in a production environment. The hobbyists - like FrontPage as it's easy to produce relatively nice looking pages in their default browser. But as soon as db enter the eqation, and most corporate websites use them, FrontPage use is out of the question. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't design expressly for I.E. It is 90%+ of the users. ( Professional real world marketers tend to look to these sort of things) Again you really don't know whereof you speak. The software that runs the internet runs on Linux, BSD or Unix hardware/software - not M$. That's what counts. -- -^- -^- ? ?Steve ^ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ` Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
john rigby wrote: Hi Lee and folks, - Original Message - From: Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? OK, I got it now. Anyone who has positive input to your thread is a geek or power user No, No! Anyone who has something positive to say will help give me heart to try it all yet again! But I need it to be someone who isn't an expert at it :-) Example: Many centuries ago, I hired a young kid to help me with a small problem I was having. I didn't know you couldn't do it so ... I was interfacing $5,000 Osborne Executive microcomputers (Transportable P.C.) to $55,000 Photoypesetting computers because they could do so much more. So, I was aiming for a $5000 really useful Terminal, instead of paying $23,000 for a real Terminal. The kid read machine code directly, like I read a Dunn's Report. ( Something most Software Engineers today have no idea of its even existence - but it is the ones and zeros end stuff.) He was very lonely. Nobody really understood anything he was talking about. I introduced him to some VHT (very high tec) people in the Big computer industry. He was mightily unimpressed. He worked 18 hours a day for a couple of weeks and then went away - found something more interesting somewhere else. But I had the first input system of its kind in the whole world - even the manufacturers couldn't work out how the kid did it. He did the analysis determined the technical job) programmed it, built the circuitboards, even devised a cable signal cleaner. Never even seen a Modem. I showed him how to use it and roughly what it did. He went and made up new ones for my branches that *really* worked - they were the first smart modems I ever knew of.. Could not type or spell to save his life. Could hardly read. You had to talk to him and show him what you wanted but once he understood... Now, he was the True Geek. Like the guys who think writing advanced computer games is easy. So geekness is a many faceted thing. It isn't the kid who knows a bit more than the true Newbie and quotes what he has read /been told, it is a state of mind - AND a knack with the tin boxes. But at the other end are the simple users - people like me who never want to see a command line if there is no reason to - who simply want to plug it in and go. Even Doze 98SE can do that. It can be done. Mandrake can do it. All that is necessary is to stop trying to be all things to all people. Put out a RETAIL product for the rest of us. We don't need Servers in a distro for God's sake! Or 5000 utilities that even the laws of statistics tell us will have a 50% no-go rate. We need an approved list of bits that work - like MS does, but on a smaller scale. We need small entrepreneurs who will put together setup boxes for people. OR help by installing it on existing systems - putting in Win4Lin (next version!) if necessary for already exposed users. But mainly putting in the equivalent, or literally, Wordperfect Office. 99% of all prospects out there only want/need to get on the net, write a letter, run simple accounts and have a source of help on line AT THEIR LEVEL. OK, I guess I AM an evangelist in a way. but I have a dream... well, a nightmare anyway - called Dot NET. Cheers, Him Again John Rigby Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com OK, My 14 year old son took a downloadable CD set (8.2 Beta4) and installed it. His 13 year old friend then did the same. Neither asked me any questions. They are happily playing crossfire on the internet. Both used Recommended installs then downloaded the crossfire rpms from Mandrake-devel. They prefer it to Windows-compatible crossfire which they claim crashes a lot with loss of experience points for their game characters. On my son's computer, a single-board VIA C3-733MHz processor based item with AC97 sound and Trident Cyberblade video, the crossfire sound worked without a tweak. 8.0 had a deadly problem for those who had off-board controllers for IDE drives, like some ASUS motherboards and some rigs with Promise Chipsets. Unless the Freq release following 8.0 is used, it will see the drives one way during install and try to boot them a different way later, resulting in an unbootable system, for a few hardware configurations. Anyway, the number of systems that will install out of the box with no tweaks is increasing, but some do still require some effort. There are ways the hardware configuration can be analyzed and 8.1 and 8.2 have easily accessible alternate install and boot images to take care of older systems and weird systems. And 8.2 as it is soon to be released will support vastly more hardware than windows XP
[OT] HTML editors. [Was: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?]
On Wednesday 13 March 2002 20:25, Nelson Bartley wrote: [snippets] I currently do both PHP and ASP programming for various customers, as well as myself. I use Frontpage for quite a few things. Yes it does produce SOME bad code, however 2002 does produce acceptable code for the basic layout. I do alot of rough work, and table planning and outlining in frontpage, just because I find it handles it better then Dreamweaver. Now, I'll admit that I don't polish these pages w/ Frontpage, that would be silly as it honestly doesn't do a great job. But if I didn't want to polish these pages they would be more then acceptable in either Mozzilla, or IE. To be fair, a lot of the bloated, non-standard pages that litter the web are produced with Frontpage Express, rather than the full Frontpage, which I am told allows you to specify the HTML version you want. And the really sucky pages are often produced, not with HTML editors, but with MS Word. But I try not to blame the authors, many of whom are new to the web. When I started, I too used Save as HTML and didn't notice anything was wrong until I started getting emails about my unreadable pages. I was also pointed to a program called demoronizer which stripped MS smartquotes (an oxymoron). I didn't know what to do with it, so I mailed back and got the reply, Just untar it and run it on the file, no arguments needed, or something like that. Like Huh? That was my introduction to UNIX, which got me into Linux. Ohh... one last thing. For the person who said that really web designers hand code HTML. That's fine. You code your complex table structure manually. I personally will do it in a WYSIWYG editor myself... for me it takes way less time. I asked a friend of mine who teaches web design what tools he had his students use. His answer was pencil and paper. Ironically, WYSIWYG tools work fine in the hands of people who learnt their HTML the hard way. Sorry if this is way off topic, but I did mark it as such! BTW, I'm happy to see off-topic mails on this list (I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't) but I'd appreciate it if people could put OT or something in the header. Then I can read those first ;-) And please change the subject header when the subject gets too far from the original post. Sometimes I miss really entertaining polemics because they still have a subject like Re: SB AWE64 drivers. Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? NOW what for?
No.. Dreamweaver Can work w/ wine, however it does not work as quickly, nor is it as functional as on windows. (I personally coulnd't get it to install.) NB On Wed, 2002-03-13 at 20:13, FemmeFatale wrote: snip sda wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:28:50PM +1000, john rigby wrote: Shane, . Most professional web design is done by designers who do the nice look using DreamWeaver and/or GoLive. snip As an aside, is it possible, as someone on this list wanted to give up M$ for Linux...but couldn't b/c dreamweaver won't work on Linux w/out problems. Is it possible instead to use Codeweavers Wine to help in that effort? Just curious wondering, not that I know wtf Dreamweaver is :) Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
john rigby wrote: Hi Shane, Sorry you are disqualified, too! :-) You are obviously very techo if not Geek! What I'm chasing is whether any non-tech/geek people have ever succeeded. These are Users. People who simply want to make/improve their earning capacity via increased productivity. People who are ancient - like over 30. At last I found a field in which I can qualify! Vis: Anyone who has previously successfully installed any kind of Network is disqualified. :-) Oops! I am disqualified! I happened once to plug a localtalk cable to a laserprinter. And it worked. Anyone who LOVES the challenge of computer exercises. The THRILL of recovering trashed records, totalled systems. No, seriously this time: As for the success history: I have bought Mandrake 8.0 powerpack. Once I inserted the disks, I had to follow the menus only and I didn't have to reply to obscure questions Every board was detected, the printer worked at once. As for the network, yes, I had to condigure it (i.e. I had to choose "DHCP" to connect to my modem), and that was it. KMail worked at once, KWord, K-everything. So to summarize, I didn't have to configure anything except DHCP and the screen resolution after first reboot. As for FrontPage, I don't know, I have never used it. But netscape's editor works well for all what I want to do. As a comparison, I didn't success to fully install Win 98. it asks obscure questions, it needs 4 or 5 reboots + one extra reboot after each driver install. And the top, the cherry on top of the cake: when you install a driver, Win is not even able to find the driver itself in the floppy / CD you insert. You have to point the path. It is not even capable of knowing that it has to search not in the NT directory, but in the W98. This was the end of my w98 experience. Fortunately, I didn't pay for it. Well, this is way off-topic. Sorry. Back to Mandrake. Now the critics: - Installing the system in Japanese is not smooth and there is some work to be done. Not very geeky, but nevertheless it has to be done. I am looking foreward to installing 8.2. to see how it works (I couldn't get an error-less download yet, so I guess I'll have to wait for the CDS). - CD burning software is geeky (at least for me). I opened the GUIs for CD burning, and there are tons of buttons, asking me whether I want ISO something, Joliet (or was it Romeo???) or whatever. So I bought a G4 and I fry my CDs with it. By the way, does anyone know a _SIMPLE_ GUI for CD burning on Linux? I mean an interface with 3 buttons: burn, erase, and open file? A further choice music / data / disc image would be acceptable although it should be the burner's job to decide what to do according to the contents. All the geeky stuff should be in the prefs. As for the productivity, it never freezes. Win used to freeze once a day, or at least several times a week. From that point, it was as stable as MacOS. But now, I didn't freeze Linux over about 1 year. I also like the ability of writing pdf files, and I have a high compatibility degree with my colleagues. I really hope Japanese will work out of the box for later releases in order to start Linux evangelism here. That's about it for the "usable out of the box" subject. As a conclusion: - as long as you install an english (and probably all other western language) system, you get everything working at once without computer knowledge. All the network / ISP parameters are on your ISP contract. - There are still a few geeky softwares that you have to get used to. Although this is not an OS issue, the average end user does not necessary understand where the OS / application border is. Yes, there are some first go success stories with a very minimal knowledge. Well, if you don't know what a mouse is, like president Chirac, I'm not sure you will success. Pascal Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
What was the original question to this posting? On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:29:51 +0900 Pascal Pascal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: john rigby wrote: Hi Shane, Sorry you are disqualified, too! :-) You are obviously very techo if not Geek! What I'm chasing is whether any non-tech/geek people have ever succeeded. These are Users. People who simply want to make/improve their earning capacity via increased productivity. People who are ancient - like over 30. At last I found a field in which I can qualify! Vis: Anyone who has previously successfully installed any kind of Network is disqualified. :-) Oops! I am disqualified! I happened once to plug a localtalk cable to a laserprinter. And it worked. Anyone who LOVES the challenge of computer exercises. The THRILL of recovering trashed records, totalled systems. No, seriously this time: As for the success history: I have bought Mandrake 8.0 powerpack. Once I inserted the disks, I had to follow the menus only and I didn't have to reply to obscure questions Every board was detected, the printer worked at once. As for the network, yes, I had to condigure it (i.e. I had to choose DHCP to connect to my modem), and that was it. KMail worked at once, KWord, K-everything. So to summarize, I didn't have to configure anything except DHCP and the screen resolution after first reboot. As for FrontPage, I don't know, I have never used it. But netscape's editor works well for all what I want to do. As a comparison, I didn't success to fully install Win 98. it asks obscure questions, it needs 4 or 5 reboots + one extra reboot after each driver install. And the top, the cherry on top of the cake: when you install a driver, Win is not even able to find the driver itself in the floppy / CD you insert. You have to point the path. It is not even capable of knowing that it has to search not in the NT directory, but in the W98. This was the end of my w98 experience. Fortunately, I didn't pay for it. Well, this is way off-topic. Sorry. Back to Mandrake. Now the critics: - Installing the system in Japanese is not smooth and there is some work to be done. Not very geeky, but nevertheless it has to be done. I am looking foreward to installing 8.2. to see how it works (I couldn't get an error-less download yet, so I guess I'll have to wait for the CDS). - CD burning software is geeky (at least for me). I opened the GUIs for CD burning, and there are tons of buttons, asking me whether I want ISO something, Joliet (or was it Romeo???) or whatever. So I bought a G4 and I fry my CDs with it. By the way, does anyone know a _SIMPLE_ GUI for CD burning on Linux? I mean an interface with 3 buttons: burn, erase, and open file? A further choice music / data / disc image would be acceptable although it should be the burner's job to decide what to do according to the contents. All the geeky stuff should be in the prefs. As for the productivity, it never freezes. Win used to freeze once a day, or at least several times a week. From that point, it was as stable as MacOS. But now, I didn't freeze Linux over about 1 year. I also like the ability of writing pdf files, and I have a high compatibility degree with my colleagues. I really hope Japanese will work out of the box for later releases in order to start Linux evangelism here. That's about it for the usable out of the box subject. As a conclusion: - as long as you install an english (and probably all other western language) system, you get everything working at once without computer knowledge. All the network / ISP parameters are on your ISP contract. - There are still a few geeky softwares that you have to get used to. Although this is not an OS issue, the average end user does not necessary understand where the OS / application border is. Yes, there are some first go success stories with a very minimal knowledge. Well, if you don't know what a mouse is, like president Chirac, I'm not sure you will success. Pascal -- °°° Mandrake Linux 8.1 Kernel 2.4.8-26mdk KDE 2.2.1 Sylpheed 0.7.2 David L. Steiner Registered Linux User #262493 Homepagewww.davidlsteiner.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
On Tuesday 12 March 2002 11:00, john rigby wrote: Hi folks, Is there anyone out there who has simply put in the full distro CDs and obtained a working ( really working - Office suite, communications, ViaVoice, replacement for FrontPage98) and a few user utilities? WITHOUT RESORTING TO ARCANE COMMAND LINE APPROACHES. As I said, every Mandrake from 7.2 on has worked out of the box on both my home computer (standard 2CD install) and my office computer (FTP install) with the sole exception that I mentioned of needing to type sndconfig to get my sound card working. Win 98 actually gave me more graphic card headaches (no built-in drivers for S3Trio or Trident, IRQ conflicts after upgrading to a GeForce II). For office, the only complete office suite you get with the standard download distro is koffice, which I don't like very much, but Open Office worked fine first time (except for not having Turkish fonts, which was soon remedied). There again, do you get Microsoft Office on your Windows CD? And don't forget, if it's document processing you're after, most Linux distros include LaTeX and LyX. Ever try setting up LaTeX/LyX for Windows? No fun. Anyone got Win4lin going in one go? Anyone got WINE to run anything? FrontPage? Wine is still in development, so it's not fair to expect it to run every Windows app. It certainly runs some things - I used to play StarCraft with it. I wish it would run MS Word better, not that I ever use it, but it would stop my workmates rebooting my office computer into Windows every time they want to write a document. Front Page - who the hell needs that? Unless, of course, you enjoy creating websites that are a pain for users. If you can't be bothered with coding HTML (and I accept that a lot of people can't), then Netscape Composer 6.*, Star/Open Office and Amaya all give you WYSIWYG editing. Robin -- Give me the views, and I'll give you the arguments. - Chrysippus Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
On Tuesday 12 March 2002 11:00, john rigby wrote: WITHOUT RESORTING TO ARCANE COMMAND LINE APPROACHES. How things have changed. I remember, back in 1991 or 1992, teaching our secretary how to use a computer. Typing was no problem, it was the mouse that freaked her out - I had to put her hand on the mouse then put my hand on hers and move it around (it looked pretty incriminating!). Whether the GUI or the command line is easier depends on (a) what you're used to and (b) what exactly you're trying to do. If you want to open a program, clicking on an icon is easier. If you want to find out the status of files in a directory, typing ll is easier. There's nothing inherently arcane about either of them. Robin -- Give me the views, and I'll give you the arguments. - Chrysippus Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
On Tuesday 12 March 2002 01:00, john rigby opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: yes, in 8.0 i had to change a single thing, i messed with fonts, in 8.1 i simply installed. everything a ok. naturally that wasn't good enough, as i have several programs i added after that cause i prefer them. one of them is how i prefer to access network shares (komba2) so i have no idea how well those are handled, but everything worked fine. athelon 750 513 ram WDC hdd Quantum hdd USB san disk reader sanyo CD 3com 3c905 trackman wheel rollerball USB i forget the sound card Is there anyone out there who has simply put in the full distro CDs and haven't any clue on via voice, what is it? ViaVoice, replacement for FrontPage98) and a few user utilities? Anyone got WINE to run anything? FrontPage? my brotherinlaw, and 4 friends have had similar experiences, all perfect. in fact only 2 of the six of us had to adjust anything in 8.0 part of the secret (IMHO) is the expert install. it simply does more for you. -- Steve Balmer, CEO of Microsoft®, recently referred to Linux as a cancer. Unsuprisingly, this is incorrect - Linux was released on August 25th, 1991, and is therefore a virgo. shane http://shentzu.home.mindspring.com/ Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 http://dmoz.org/ cause humans do it better! Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
On Tuesday 12 March 2002 04:00 am, john rigby wrote: Hi folks, Is there anyone out there who has simply put in the full distro CDs and obtained a working ( really working - Office suite, communications, ViaVoice, replacement for FrontPage98) and a few user utilities? WITHOUT RESORTING TO ARCANE COMMAND LINE APPROACHES. Can we even say that e.g. the Intel P3 works with it? AMD? (Duron or Athlon?) The 8513 Chipset? The X Motherboard? Onboard sound, video? MSI Boards? (Models?) Asus Bds? (Models?) Anyone got Win4lin going in one go? Anyone got WINE to run anything? FrontPage? Has it ever happened? With bated breath, Cheers, Him In a word.mostly 8.2 fired up everything nicely. Soyo Dragon Plus Radeon 7200 AMD Athlon 1900 Only problem isn't a Linux problem and I've said it before. I will probably have a WinBox 'til the cows come home because, in my business I have to communicate with people in their own (wordprocesser) language. When I get a letter in Word, I have to respond in Word to avoid obvious problems with recipients. WordPerfect in WordPerfect, etc. Frankly, I don't see where that is a problem. Linux is a tool, not a religion. It is doing faithfully everything that I expect, and did so right out of the ISO. Would that the rest of life were so simple. Every once in a while, I stumble around in the dark and either install a program or crash the computer, just for sport. Crashes and other self-inflicted wounds are becoming less frequent as Mandrake and I both evolve. More fun than a bowl of pollywogs. Lee -- Registered Linux user #223705 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Lee, Thanks for your info, but you are a Power-User by the sound of the box specs! :-) I'm trying to determine if Linux - especially Mandrake is true to the old idea of not needing a monster box to run. I know of Linux Servers that are running on Steam-powered old things and just don't fall over. The sad thing is that I don't know anyone not at least a p/time geek who has made it all go without enough research and effort for a PhD. And of course, you mentioned 8.2 - which isn't even there for us chickens. Altho I noticed it got a couple of accolades on fixing earlier problems in reviews. The 8513 Chipset? The X Motherboard? Onboard sound, video? MSI Boards? (Models?) Asus Bds? (Models?) Anyone got Win4lin going in one go? Anyone got WINE to run anything? FrontPage? Has it ever happened? In a word.mostly 8.2 fired up everything nicely. Soyo Dragon Plus Radeon 7200 AMD Athlon 1900 Only problem isn't a Linux problem and I've said it before. I will probably have a WinBox 'til the cows come home because, in my business I have to communicate with people in their own (wordprocesser) language. When I get a letter in Word, I have to respond in Word to avoid obvious problems with recipients. WordPerfect in WordPerfect, etc. Frankly, I don't see where that is a problem. Linux is a tool, not a religion. It is doing faithfully everything that I expect, and did so right out of the ISO. Would that the rest of life were so simple. Every once in a while, I stumble around in the dark and either install a program or crash the computer, just for sport. Crashes and other self-inflicted wounds are becoming less frequent as Mandrake and I both evolve. More fun than a bowl of pollywogs. Lee Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
so what you want is a stripped down, recompiled, runs on a 486, and you want it without working at it, with a modern gui install, and full hardware detection? no operating system ever created meets those specs. none. why not just wish for world peace? On Tuesday 12 March 2002 15:27, john rigby opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: Hi Lee, Thanks for your info, but you are a Power-User by the sound of the box specs! :-) I'm trying to determine if Linux - especially Mandrake is true to the old idea of not needing a monster box to run. I know of Linux Servers that are running on Steam-powered old things and just don't fall over. The sad thing is that I don't know anyone not at least a p/time geek who has made it all go without enough research and effort for a PhD. And of course, you mentioned 8.2 - which isn't even there for us chickens. Altho I noticed it got a couple of accolades on fixing earlier problems in reviews. -- Nimda virus affects Linux! My linux boxes have had their bandwidth chewed up by four thousand Nimda servers infected with IIS. shane http://shentzu.home.mindspring.com/ Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 http://dmoz.org/ cause humans do it better! Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Robin, Thanks for the reply, but you don't mention your qualifications. My whole project is to demystify the thing for people who are simply Users, not Geeks or would-be's. As for Frontpage, the dozen or so people I know who make a living - yes, actually pay their rent from their activities as serious Web Implementers *all* use FP. Specifically, FP98. ( There are excellent reasons for it commercially and productively, if not technically) There is nothing simpler, there is nothing faster, there is nothing cheaper or easier to support - which is where you make or lose your hourly rate in the real world. I have tried to replace it many times ( a sucker for anything promising THIS time it will work :-) ) and still use it. BUT am always happy to hear from anyone about something different, new, better - after all - I've been with Linux since 5.2. :-) BTW: Your comment about people who can't be bothered coding HTML . you qualify as a Geek on THAT alone. :-) Cheers! John Simply because I know HOW change my own gearbox oil is certainly no reason to do so - Original Message - From: Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? As I said, every Mandrake from 7.2 on has worked out of the box on both my home computer (standard 2CD install) and my office computer (FTP install) with the sole exception that I mentioned of needing to type sndconfig to get my sound card working. Win 98 actually gave me more graphic card headaches (no built-in drivers for S3Trio or Trident, IRQ conflicts after upgrading to a GeForce II). Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Robin, No wonder she freaked out! The actual inventor at PARC said only a couple of years ago that it was insane to have incorporated that device for the purpose. Actually, what you are used to has no relevance in the first approach to computers. There is no usable referential experience. except intelligence and that is pretty useless where using tinboxes and programs are concerned for the most part. The Managing Director of Osborne Computers told me ( before many of our correspondents here were born, much less working) that my invention of the menu was going to make it possible for *anyone* to accept and use the microcomputer. I wrote it in ASCII and created batch files. It made the Microcomputer accessible/usable for my staff. It was intelligence-oriented. Some actions involved up to thirty letters in input. But not for the staff. This is what it looked like from memory: ++ 1. Write a Letter 2. Add to Accounts 3. Telephone connect 4. HOW TO HELP 5. Save work to Floppy Disk 9. DANGER: Out to DOS +--+ The Menus simply cascaded never with more than 5 options. Easy? Even today, we still don't need pretty pikkies and animations - although the kids that design frontends love them - it replaces their cartoon lunchboxes.. :-) All we REALLY need are .. simple English Menus. Cheers, John - Original Message - From: Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ? On Tuesday 12 March 2002 11:00, john rigby wrote: WITHOUT RESORTING TO ARCANE COMMAND LINE APPROACHES. How things have changed. I remember, back in 1991 or 1992, teaching our secretary how to use a computer. Typing was no problem, it was the mouse that freaked her out - I had to put her hand on the mouse then put my hand on hers and move it around (it looked pretty incriminating!). Whether the GUI or the command line is easier depends on (a) what you're used to and (b) what exactly you're trying to do. If you want to open a program, clicking on an icon is easier. If you want to find out the status of files in a directory, typing ll is easier. There's nothing inherently arcane about either of them. Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Shane, Sorry you are disqualified, too! :-) You are obviously very techo if not Geek! What I'm chasing is whether any non-tech/geek people have ever succeeded. These are Users. People who simply want to make/improve their earning capacity via increased productivity. People who are ancient - like over 30. Vis: Anyone who has previously successfully installed any kind of Network is disqualified. :-) Anyone who LOVES the challenge of computer exercises. The THRILL of recovering trashed records, totalled systems. Cheers, John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
Hi Terry, Great! What are you using it for? What is the comparative speed like? What sort of system? Are you a User or a Geek, would you say? I think it offers a great answer for the small business person especially. Cheers, John - Original Message - From: Terry S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was able to get Win4Lin working in one go. After I bought my copy, I went to their website and downloaded the newest installer program. Things worked like a champ from there. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:00:20 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks, Is there anyone out there who has simply put in the full distro CDs and obtained a working ( really working - Office suite, communications, ViaVoice, replacement for FrontPage98) and a few user utilities? WITHOUT RESORTING TO ARCANE COMMAND LINE APPROACHES. Can we even say that e.g. the Intel P3 works with it? AMD? (Duron or Athlon?) I suppose I am a hobbyist geek, though I am ancient (33). I had no trouble at all installing the downloaded 8.1 on my home-built system which previously housed Windows98: Asus P5A mobo, AMD K62 500mhz, 384MB RAM, 8 gig HD, ATI AGP XPERT98, Ensoniq sb compatible (taken from my old computer), HP CD-RW. I did a dual boot with W98 until I got a $9 NIC to try with my cable modem to make sure I could get on with Mandrake, and as soon as I could, I wiped Windows. Everything was easy. Things that have gone wrong have done so because I tinker. It's the same thing I did with Windows95, and that's how I learn. I have a feeling I'll be disqualified from your survey because I've used acronyms and specified models. When I started (about 2 months ago), I hated command line. Now I love it. Just as I learned to do things more efficiently in Windows, so have I done in Linux. This is what happens with practice and use--one actually becomes more competent. Does that make me a geek? I don't think so. Everyday I work with teachers who would not know the difference between W98 and Mandrake 8.1 running KDE--and that's because they don't know W98. If you don't know anything about computers, does it matter whether you learn Mac, Win, Linux, or whatever? If you ask me, installing the OS yourself automatically qualifies you for geekhood :-o As for office apps and such, I am happy to say I haven't had occasion to start openoffice.org more than 3 times, and one of those was to teach my wife how to edit files I saved from Windows. I use Linux at home, for fun, and prefer to leave work at work. This is strictly play--Apache, icecast, GIMPing, writing shell scripts, trying to learn Perl etc. Oddly enough, this will probably spill over to work as I plan to set up a Linux server there to experiment with open source educational apps. Mis dos centavitos. Todd -- Todd Slater No use to shout at them to pay attention. If the situations, the materials, the problems before the child do not interest him, his attention will slip off to what does interest him, and no amount of exhortation of threats will bring it back. (John Holt) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Any First Go success stories ?
On Tuesday 12 March 2002 17:10, john rigby opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: As for Frontpage, the dozen or so people I know who make a living - yes, actually pay their rent from their activities as serious Web Implementers *all* use FP. Specifically, FP98. ( There are excellent reasons for it bullshit, really, seriously, FP is good only for creating MS documents for MSbrowsers, and anyone who thinks that is all you need will have a rude awakening when a combination of linux/mac/bsd users and AOL using gecko as their engine puts IE back under 40% on the browser share. front page is to the webpages what oil spills are to the environment, a big stinking mess that someone will have to clean or will just keep on destroying. i was taking you seriously until now. lets get one thing straight. anyone who can install any other OS can install linux. yes this leaves some people out, but those people couldn't install windows either. shall we make them all use type writers? i have no idea what your goal is here, but seem not to be asking for help, you have not mentioned a problem of your own, and you continue to disagree with everything said. no linux can be installed without too much messing around. i say i have then you are a geek you don't count! well i still have friends who have installed mandrake who can't even tell you what cards they have in the system, you ignore that. fine, please use something, and go away or i shall replace you with a very small shell script -- If Microsoft is innovative in any area, it is in creating new forms of intimidation. - Ralph Nader shane http://shentzu.home.mindspring.com/ Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 http://dmoz.org/ cause humans do it better! Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
