Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
This has just given me an idea. Instead of just having some preset installation configurations like "Workstation", "Development and "Server", we could have get of checkboxes, with each option representing a function (i.e. not a programme). That way, we can mix and match functions (i.e. be able to select multiple checkboxes). For example, someone could choose to have their machine set up as both a server and a general-purpose home machine, and then Drakx would install the preset programmes for both. Of course, the user must have the option of being able to fine-tune the programmes to be installed. We could even have subgroups, where the user can choose to install certain functions of a main group. For example, a user could choose the Workstation install, but not install multimedia players (e.g. MP3 and video players along with their associated libraries). This could be useful for office environments that need small and clean installations on each machine (it also can be used by employers to stop workers from watching movies or playing games during office hours :-) ). On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:59, Bob Currey wrote: I think "dumbing down" the automatic install is needed if it will ever be for the masses. I think added selectivity in the "custom" install based on purpose would be best for the techies that like to play to get at least the right packages for starters. Like my situation is a "Home Server/Desktop". The server option removes the GUI entirely. The other options remove the server capability. The end result was a month of how-tos and attempts needed to get things running. Yes, I learned a lot, but most people would have given up long before. It just needs to be a bit more flexible without getting scary. Those who want to see scary can click "expert". I would have tried "yes" for shadow passwords, but figured they were trying to impress on me how little II really knew, and figured my likelihood of sucess at approx. nil, given that. I remember seeing a contest where C programmers took pride in making their programs unreadable a few years back. I'm not a glutton for punishment. BobC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mark Weaver Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 10:25 AM To: Mandrake Newbie List Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux All of the above and anything else that folks can think of to do with Linux. For me there is no other OS worth my time or energy. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: If everything "has a purpose" then what exactly *is* Linux's purpose? Is it to run desktop workstations? Servers? Supercomputers? PDAs? Web pads? Wristwatches? Linux has been proven to run well on all these devices, and it is continuing to push both downwards (towards embedded devices, etc.) and upwards (towards high-end servers, etc.), while consolidating its position in the middle (desktop computers, etc.). While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:35, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car
RE: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Yes, I like it your way. The main idea was to make it easy to get a GOOD install from the get go with the capabilities needed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Sridhar Dhanapalan Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 4:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; civileme Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux This has just given me an idea. Instead of just having some preset installation configurations like "Workstation", "Development and "Server", we could have get of checkboxes, with each option representing a function (i.e. not a programme). That way, we can mix and match functions (i.e. be able to select multiple checkboxes). For example, someone could choose to have their machine set up as both a server and a general-purpose home machine, and then Drakx would install the preset programmes for both. Of course, the user must have the option of being able to fine-tune the programmes to be installed. We could even have subgroups, where the user can choose to install certain functions of a main group. For example, a user could choose the Workstation install, but not install multimedia players (e.g. MP3 and video players along with their associated libraries). This could be useful for office environments that need small and clean installations on each machine (it also can be used by employers to stop workers from watching movies or playing games during office hours :-) ). On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:59, Bob Currey wrote: I think "dumbing down" the automatic install is needed if it will ever be for the masses. I think added selectivity in the "custom" install based on purpose would be best for the techies that like to play to get at least the right packages for starters. Like my situation is a "Home Server/Desktop". The server option removes the GUI entirely. The other options remove the server capability. The end result was a month of how-tos and attempts needed to get things running. Yes, I learned a lot, but most people would have given up long before. It just needs to be a bit more flexible without getting scary. Those who want to see scary can click "expert". I would have tried "yes" for shadow passwords, but figured they were trying to impress on me how little II really knew, and figured my likelihood of sucess at approx. nil, given that. I remember seeing a contest where C programmers took pride in making their programs unreadable a few years back. I'm not a glutton for punishment. BobC
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: This has just given me an idea. Instead of just having some preset installation configurations like "Workstation", "Development and "Server", we could have get of checkboxes, with each option representing a function (i.e. not a programme). That way, we can mix and match functions (i.e. be able to select multiple checkboxes). For example, someone could choose to have their machine set up as both a server and a general-purpose home machine, and then Drakx would install the preset programmes for both. Of course, the user must snip I think this would be an excellent idea, but I still think it needs to have better documentation than I have seen in the past. Most users (note, users, not developers) need a limited number of functions to accomplish their tasks. Dividing the install into functional areas would make it much easier to get what is needed, without preventing selection of pet applications within a group. Most users don't need multiple text editors, one or two will meet the majority of needs. Likewise with other programs. A core group with the maintenance utilities needed to make the system work, like networking, ppp, Drakx, and video tools could be mandatory then add others on as options. This is already built into the install, but is cleverly disguised in the package selection process. Unfortunately, the process is also bloated with unnecessary tools that most users never need or use and lacks things needed for a flexible system. My pet deficiencies include some upgrading tools, 100 dpi fonts, and other usability tools. The present system also doesn't seem to actually follow the selection list. As an example my latest install included 4 text editors I had specifically not selected. I use KEdit for 99% of the text editing I do so I didn't want CoolEdit, GEdit, or Advance Editor, but I have them anyway. On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:59, Bob Currey wrote: I think "dumbing down" the automatic install is needed if it will ever be for the masses. I think added selectivity in the "custom" install based on purpose would be best for the techies that like to play to get at least the right packages for starters. Like my situation is a "Home Server/Desktop". The server option removes the GUI entirely. The other options remove the server capability. The end result was a month of how-tos and attempts needed to get things running. Yes, I learned a lot, but most people would have given up long before. It just needs to be a bit more flexible without getting scary. Those who Getting scary is the problem, I spend several hours every week helping newbies with their initial installs. They are afraid to do try linux because they worry about the integrity of their systems. Partitioning, and package selection are daunting tasks for the uninitiated. With simpler documentation, and a function install process vice the current three choices the task would be less frightening for at least some of the new users. Allowing new users to try out a functional system out of the box will give them tools to expand into other programs. This seems to me to be a more viable strategy than the current "shotgun" approach. This isn't "dumbing down" linux, which seems to be a problem with many of the more experienced users. It actually is a more intelligent strategy, because it opens the use of linux to more users. Linux may not be for everyone, but it can only grow if it is useable for more. If nothing else more users will result in more intellectual power to make improvements. -- Jim -- James Mellema, CRNA -- Linux User # 71650 ICQ #19685870
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
All of the above and anything else that folks can think of to do with Linux. For me there is no other OS worth my time or energy. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: If everything "has a purpose" then what exactly *is* Linux's purpose? Is it to run desktop workstations? Servers? Supercomputers? PDAs? Web pads? Wristwatches? Linux has been proven to run well on all these devices, and it is continuing to push both downwards (towards embedded devices, etc.) and upwards (towards high-end servers, etc.), while consolidating its position in the middle (desktop computers, etc.). While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:35, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
David, In many ways Linux is nothing like what you're used to. And much more like the mainframes you've programmed for all these years. What protocols are you using to get the boxes to talk to the Linux box. I'm assuming that you're using the Linux box as a file server, right? -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, David Thompson wrote: See comments embedded... - Original Message - From: "Sridhar Dhanapalan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux snip While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? I guess I am the "dumb Windoze user" many of you refer to, because I am having one H*** of a time getting Linux to communicate with my Windows boxes. I have tried 5 total re-installs, sometimes I'm able to ping the linux box from my Win2K box, then after tweaking using linuxcfg, it doesn't work. After 12 years in the industry as a Cobol programmer, and working with DOS and Windows from it's first release, I thought I had a little more knowledge the the average person. I maintain that Windows runs the first time and any slightly trained monkey can use it from then on. I value linux as a suberb server, and I'm going to continue in my attempts to get my home network up and running with linux, as opposed to using the Windows standard peer-to-peer networking, but as far as networking - this is not for the feeble-minded!! By the way, I am defending, nor blasting either product (Win Linux). I feel they both have their place.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Ahh.. Yes and no DLLs.. Mark Weaver wrote: All of the above and anything else that folks can think of to do with Linux. For me there is no other OS worth my time or energy. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: If everything "has a purpose" then what exactly *is* Linux's purpose? Is it to run desktop workstations? Servers? Supercomputers? PDAs? Web pads? Wristwatches? Linux has been proven to run well on all these devices, and it is continuing to push both downwards (towards embedded devices, etc.) and upwards (towards high-end servers, etc.), while consolidating its position in the middle (desktop computers, etc.). While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:35, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead.
RE: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
I think "dumbing down" the automatic install is needed if it will ever be for the masses. I think added selectivity in the "custom" install based on purpose would be best for the techies that like to play to get at least the right packages for starters. Like my situation is a "Home Server/Desktop". The server option removes the GUI entirely. The other options remove the server capability. The end result was a month of how-tos and attempts needed to get things running. Yes, I learned a lot, but most people would have given up long before. It just needs to be a bit more flexible without getting scary. Those who want to see scary can click "expert". I would have tried "yes" for shadow passwords, but figured they were trying to impress on me how little II really knew, and figured my likelihood of sucess at approx. nil, given that. I remember seeing a contest where C programmers took pride in making their programs unreadable a few years back. I'm not a glutton for punishment. BobC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mark Weaver Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 10:25 AM To: Mandrake Newbie List Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux All of the above and anything else that folks can think of to do with Linux. For me there is no other OS worth my time or energy. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: If everything "has a purpose" then what exactly *is* Linux's purpose? Is it to run desktop workstations? Servers? Supercomputers? PDAs? Web pads? Wristwatches? Linux has been proven to run well on all these devices, and it is continuing to push both downwards (towards embedded devices, etc.) and upwards (towards high-end servers, etc.), while consolidating its position in the middle (desktop computers, etc.). While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:35, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Yes... all that and I can have icing too! -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Romanator wrote: Ahh.. Yes and no DLLs.. Mark Weaver wrote: All of the above and anything else that folks can think of to do with Linux. For me there is no other OS worth my time or energy. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: If everything "has a purpose" then what exactly *is* Linux's purpose? Is it to run desktop workstations? Servers? Supercomputers? PDAs? Web pads? Wristwatches? Linux has been proven to run well on all these devices, and it is continuing to push both downwards (towards embedded devices, etc.) and upwards (towards high-end servers, etc.), while consolidating its position in the middle (desktop computers, etc.). While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:35, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute
Server Setup Problems: Was Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Thank you for responding Mark. I want to run LM 7.0 as a server only, with a command-line interface. I running Cat 5 wire through a 8-port hub. My Linux box (Server) is the following: CPU: 90 Mhz Pentium RAM: 32 MB Audio: None Samba: Ver 2.0.6 NIC: Realtek 8139 - PCI Bus 10/100 Mbps HD: IDE HD 1,626 MB CDRom: ATAPE 36X Bios: Award Plug Play - PCI Bios v1.0a IP Address: 192.168.0.1 Client #1: Mfr: NEC, Ready 9716 CPU: 200 Mhz MMX RAM: 32 EDO MB HD: 3.2 GB CDRom: 16X Modem: 33.6 Kbps OS: Win98 SR2 NIC: Realtek 8139 - PCI Bus 10/100 Mbps IP Address: 192.168.0.2 Client #2: Mfr: Compaq Presario CPU: Celeron 1Ghz RAM: 257 MB OS: Win2000 Professional NIC: Realtek 8139 - PCI Bus 10/100 Mbps IP Address: 192.168.0.3 - Original Message - From: "Mark Weaver" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Mandrake Newbie List" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux David, In many ways Linux is nothing like what you're used to. And much more like the mainframes you've programmed for all these years. What protocols are you using to get the boxes to talk to the Linux box. I'm assuming that you're using the Linux box as a file server, right? -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful."
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
See comments embedded... - Original Message - From: "Sridhar Dhanapalan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux snip While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? I guess I am the "dumb Windoze user" many of you refer to, because I am having one H*** of a time getting Linux to communicate with my Windows boxes. I have tried 5 total re-installs, sometimes I'm able to ping the linux box from my Win2K box, then after tweaking using linuxcfg, it doesn't work. After 12 years in the industry as a Cobol programmer, and working with DOS and Windows from it's first release, I thought I had a little more knowledge the the average person. I maintain that Windows runs the first time and any slightly trained monkey can use it from then on. I value linux as a suberb server, and I'm going to continue in my attempts to get my home network up and running with linux, as opposed to using the Windows standard peer-to-peer networking, but as far as networking - this is not for the feeble-minded!! By the way, I am defending, nor blasting either product (Win Linux). I feel they both have their place.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead. -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
RE: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
-Original Message- From: Adrian Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 10:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. I get what you are saying, but there is a subtle difference between the magnitude of purpose between the hunting rifle/cannon and linux/windows. Presumably, both linux and windows are multiple purpose generic OSs and are able to solve the same problems in the same domains. Both OSs can be deployed for server purposes or desktop purposes. In that respect that are more reasonably interchangeable than the rifle and cannon scenario. There is no reason why Linux cannot or should not be as accessible as MAC and Windows are. (There is no reason that Solaris should not be as accessible as MAC and Windows are -- and in terms of cost as accessible as MAC, Windows, and Linux are) The reason why, is that Linux is not as accessible as MAC and Windows is because Linux doesn't have paying customers that have UI requirements like the other OSs. Consequently, the UI priorities are not the same for linux as Windows, but that's just because of the nature of the Open Source methods and linux's roots. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? In short, because you and I and the most of the linux community typically have philisophical problems with the way MS behaves, beyond any technical merit of the OS and application it runs. i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. You're exaggerating. Yes, it is reasonable to say that linux can address everything that comprises an OS and server/desktop platforms just as well as any other general-purpose OS can address. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. I don't know if the argument is really "linux must be like windows", but rather, "Why can't linux be as accessible as windows and mac and beos?" ps: I think these tangent discussions are very good, as more people of different backgrounds look to solve new problems with linux it will make linux just that much better. pps: It's too bad I can't convince the VPs here to use linux as our production machines instead of solaris, because quite frankly linux has a better (more accesible) devlopment enivronment! (But if you read the unix newsgroups they complain about linux like we complain about windows -- imagine that!)
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Heavens! don't do that. ToJams don't wash down too easily. And I happen to agree with what you said. All things have a purpose and I, like you, don't want Linux to be anymore like windows then the next guy. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
If everything "has a purpose" then what exactly *is* Linux's purpose? Is it to run desktop workstations? Servers? Supercomputers? PDAs? Web pads? Wristwatches? Linux has been proven to run well on all these devices, and it is continuing to push both downwards (towards embedded devices, etc.) and upwards (towards high-end servers, etc.), while consolidating its position in the middle (desktop computers, etc.). While I believe that Linux can be an excellent alternative to M$ Windos, I must admit that my greatest fear is that it will be "dumbed down" to cater for ordinary users. This fear, while not totally baseless, is unlikely to eventuate. There will always be serious computer users, who don't want a "dumb" OS. There are, and always will be, apps to cater for these people, especially since these are the people who code most Linux apps anyway. KDE too "dumb" for you? Use WindowMaker, or BlackBox, or XFce... Think the default Linux kernel is too bloated? Recompile it and include only what you need. Linux is the most scalable OS ever to exist, and this scalability is increasing with time. Linux can be whatever you make it to be. Want it to run a Windos competitor? With GNOME and KDE it already is. Want it to work at the enterprise level? Kernel 2.4 supports the high-end processors like the Itanium in multiprocessor configurations and up to 64GB of RAM. Want it to run a PDA? Compile a tiny kernel and run something like QT-embedded or GTK-embedded. And the most important point is that Linux excels in all these scenarios. See my point? On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:35, Adrian Smith wrote: this will be a shock to you all, but i have an opinon here. =) i agree with Tom -- although i fully confess Tom is much better at saying than I am. probably because i am an obnoxious and arrogant and Tom isn't. but i can't figure this one out ether, why do you guys care so much about converting windoze users? should we make 18 wheelers with automatic stick shifts so that everyone who drives a car can drive a semi-truck? a honda accord has a purpose. a freightliner tractor/trailer rig has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. a hunting rifle has a purpose. a 50mm vulcan cannon has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. windows has a purpose. linux has a purpose. they are not the same purpose. use the right tool for the right job. if i wanted linux to be like windows, why wouldn't i have just kept using windows? i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but i just don't understand this. no product can be everything to everybody. no product. name any one *specific* product that fills every need held by every person on the planet. i think the "must be like windows" concept is a bad thing. i'll try to stuff a sock in my mouth now. =) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9:29:15 PM 1/17/01 OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. Your mouse has moved. Windows must be rebooted to acknowledge this change.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? i agree, but i will add one other thing -- i have done stupid things on my computer and killed it because i was ignorant (but i learn best by crashing my system). i willing do stupid things because i can fdisk start over. so i would change that ro read: anyone stupid enuf not to understand Drakx, or stupid enuf not to be prepaired for a total crash (back ups and install CDs), shouldn't be using Linux. for example, here were i work we just paid $250 an hour to try to extract data from a hard drive that was underwater. why? because most of it wasn't backed up, and the back ups they did have were on tape. right next to the computer. under water. a clear example of people not smart enuf to use linux. =) i'm prepaired for my computer to crash everytime i look at it.=) Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Adrian Smith wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? Adrian, For egotistical reasons I am tempted to agree with you, but I think in the real world that's a poor way to look at the problems here. Everyone had to learn somehow, but just because you and I learned in the school of hard knocks doesn't mean everyone has to. There is no reason to need an advanced degree in comp sci to use a computer. If you want the computer to be a tool it has to be usable by those that need it. If you want it to be an ego trip for the cognoscenti then what you say is true. The Drake tools are very good and easy to use for those of us with more than a smattering of technical knowledge. But without better documentation they are a huge barrier for the average user. Some of the problems I see with Mandrake are trying to use the server install instead of workstation, (I wiped out 3 gigs of webpages, graphics files, and programs on ide2) probably 20 installs before I figured out a reasonable partitioning scheme, multiple development programs an libraries which just take space and are not usable for most users, multiple programs which are extraneous for the majority of users (i.e. text editors, mail programs, web tools, system monitors, and sound/video multimedia programs). I would like to see a documentation link on the splash screen as you open the installation program. Ideally it could be in pdf format and open a pdf client that would give simple steps to the installation process. This could also define terms and give examples of what is necessary for a minimum install, as well as provide warnings about terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: 1) install linux prior to WIN2K, 2) do not use 'server' installation on a dual boot computer, (or one with data you would like to keep), 3) known unreconcilable hardware problems (windmodems, incompatible peripherals) 4) The steps necessary to create a dual boot machine. I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Fortunately I have several computers and don't have to take the chance at destroying my workstation to experiment, most of the computing population doesn't have that advantage. Linux isn't easy but it will have to become easier if it is to become a standard in the business community, and amongst the computing public. Most people don't want to experiment, they would like to use their computer to surf the web, write the odd letter, track their checkbook, and keep records. There is no reason to make things difficult (or impossible) for Joe User. The past 20 years is littered with good ideas, hardware and software that didn't take that unnecessary difficulty into account -- Jim -- James Mellema, MA CRNA -- Linux User # 71650 ICQ #19685870
RE: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
-Original Message- From: James Mellema [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux I would like to see a documentation link on the splash screen as you open the installation program. Ideally it could be in pdf format and open a pdf client that would give simple steps to the installation process. This could also define terms and give examples of what is necessary for a minimum install, as well as provide warnings about terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: I think this is a wonderful idea too, but why PDF? I'd rather HMTL or plain text... I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Wow, do you have anything published that I could read on this subject. I very interested in this sort of thing. It seems that one thing MS and Apple have is a dedicated group that help solve usability problems that are not so closely tied to the techy/developer mentality. I don't know for sure but I don't think this is true for the KDE, GNOME, etc. groups (correct me if I'm wrong), my impression is that there is some gathering of ideas from the community about usability issues, but the ideas come from and are processed by folks higher-up on the computer food chain instead of from the middle or lower regions. See, while Linux is a wonderful thing, the fact that you must pour over HOW-TOs which many times are quite obscure and post many emails to lists and press on for months in this mode to get your sound card to work (for example) speaks to the fact that Linux is a hobbyist OS. But, that said, it is getting better all the time. Just recently my wife has shown some interest in installing Linux because she wants to see what the gimp is like since she is a web developer. And though I am a little apprehensive about this venture, it will be when folks like her reach a critical mass that some usablility innovation will show up in the OS.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Very well said, I will vote for you for vice-President next go around, sorry already committed to someone else on the list for prez. OK, I'll be quiet again. James Mellema wrote: Adrian Smith wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? Adrian, For egotistical reasons I am tempted to agree with you, but I think in the real world that's a poor way to look at the problems here. Everyone had to learn somehow, but just because you and I learned in the school of hard knocks doesn't mean everyone has to. There is no reason to need an advanced degree in comp sci to use a computer. If you want the computer to be a tool it has to be usable by those that need it. If you want it to be an ego trip for the cognoscenti then what you say is true. The Drake tools are very good and easy to use for those of us with more than a smattering of technical knowledge. But without better documentation they are a huge barrier for the average user. Some of the problems I see with Mandrake are trying to use the server install instead of workstation, (I wiped out 3 gigs of webpages, graphics files, and programs on ide2) probably 20 installs before I figured out a reasonable partitioning scheme, multiple development programs an libraries which just take space and are not usable for most users, multiple programs which are extraneous for the majority of users (i.e. text editors, mail programs, web tools, system monitors, and sound/video multimedia programs). I would like to see a documentation link on the splash screen as you open the installation program. Ideally it could be in pdf format and open a pdf client that would give simple steps to the installation process. This could also define terms and give examples of what is necessary for a minimum install, as well as provide warnings about terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: 1) install linux prior to WIN2K, 2) do not use 'server' installation on a dual boot computer, (or one with data you would like to keep), 3) known unreconcilable hardware problems (windmodems, incompatible peripherals) 4) The steps necessary to create a dual boot machine. I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Fortunately I have several computers and don't have to take the chance at destroying my workstation to experiment, most of the computing population doesn't have that advantage. Linux isn't easy but it will have to become easier if it is to become a standard in the business community, and amongst the computing public. Most people don't want to experiment, they would like to use their computer to surf the web, write the odd letter, track their checkbook, and keep records. There is no reason to make things difficult (or impossible) for Joe User. The past 20 years is littered with good ideas, hardware and software that didn't take that unnecessary difficulty into account -- Dennis Myers Registered Linux user #180843
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Right On James! Dan LaBine Registered Linux User #190712 - Original Message - From: "James Mellema" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux Adrian Smith wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? Adrian, For egotistical reasons I am tempted to agree with you, but I think in the real world that's a poor way to look at the problems here. Everyone had to learn somehow, but just because you and I learned in the school of hard knocks doesn't mean everyone has to. There is no reason to need an advanced degree in comp sci to use a computer. If you want the computer to be a tool it has to be usable by those that need it. If you want it to be an ego trip for the cognoscenti then what you say is true. The Drake tools are very good and easy to use for those of us with more than a smattering of technical knowledge. But without better documentation they are a huge barrier for the average user. Some of the problems I see with Mandrake are trying to use the server install instead of workstation, (I wiped out 3 gigs of webpages, graphics files, and programs on ide2) probably 20 installs before I figured out a reasonable partitioning scheme, multiple development programs an libraries which just take space and are not usable for most users, multiple programs which are extraneous for the majority of users (i.e. text editors, mail programs, web tools, system monitors, and sound/video multimedia programs). I would like to see a documentation link on the splash screen as you open the installation program. Ideally it could be in pdf format and open a pdf client that would give simple steps to the installation process. This could also define terms and give examples of what is necessary for a minimum install, as well as provide warnings about terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: 1) install linux prior to WIN2K, 2) do not use 'server' installation on a dual boot computer, (or one with data you would like to keep), 3) known unreconcilable hardware problems (windmodems, incompatible peripherals) 4) The steps necessary to create a dual boot machine. I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Fortunately I have several computers and don't have to take the chance at destroying my workstation to experiment, most of the computing population doesn't have that advantage. Linux isn't easy but it will have to become easier if it is to become a standard in the business community, and amongst the computing public. Most people don't want to experiment, they would like to use their computer to surf the web, write the odd letter, track their checkbook, and keep records. There is no reason to make things difficult (or impossible) for Joe User. The past 20 years is littered with good ideas, hardware and software that didn't take that unnecessary difficulty into account -- Jim -- James Mellema, MA CRNA -- Linux User # 71650 ICQ #19685870
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Hear! hear! Bang on the money! Dan LaBine Registered Linux User #190712 - Original Message - From: "Dennis Myers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux Very well said, I will vote for you for vice-President next go around, sorry already committed to someone else on the list for prez. OK, I'll be quiet again. James Mellema wrote: Adrian Smith wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? Adrian, For egotistical reasons I am tempted to agree with you, but I think in the real world that's a poor way to look at the problems here. Everyone had to learn somehow, but just because you and I learned in the school of hard knocks doesn't mean everyone has to. There is no reason to need an advanced degree in comp sci to use a computer. If you want the computer to be a tool it has to be usable by those that need it. If you want it to be an ego trip for the cognoscenti then what you say is true. The Drake tools are very good and easy to use for those of us with more than a smattering of technical knowledge. But without better documentation they are a huge barrier for the average user. Some of the problems I see with Mandrake are trying to use the server install instead of workstation, (I wiped out 3 gigs of webpages, graphics files, and programs on ide2) probably 20 installs before I figured out a reasonable partitioning scheme, multiple development programs an libraries which just take space and are not usable for most users, multiple programs which are extraneous for the majority of users (i.e. text editors, mail programs, web tools, system monitors, and sound/video multimedia programs). I would like to see a documentation link on the splash screen as you open the installation program. Ideally it could be in pdf format and open a pdf client that would give simple steps to the installation process. This could also define terms and give examples of what is necessary for a minimum install, as well as provide warnings about terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: 1) install linux prior to WIN2K, 2) do not use 'server' installation on a dual boot computer, (or one with data you would like to keep), 3) known unreconcilable hardware problems (windmodems, incompatible peripherals) 4) The steps necessary to create a dual boot machine. I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Fortunately I have several computers and don't have to take the chance at destroying my workstation to experiment, most of the computing population doesn't have that advantage. Linux isn't easy but it will have to become easier if it is to become a standard in the business community, and amongst the computing public. Most people don't want to experiment, they would like to use their computer to surf the web, write the odd letter, track their checkbook, and keep records. There is no reason to make things difficult (or impossible) for Joe User. The past 20 years is littered with good ideas, hardware and software that didn't take that unnecessary difficulty into account -- Dennis Myers Registered Linux user #180843
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
opps... i mean, Hi James (wasn't trying to call you a name or something) =) my fingers sometimes i don't think they listen to my brain. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1:47:01 PM 1/17/01 Hi Jame. i assume you are responding to the paragraph you quoted. if this is so, then Sridhar wrote that, not me (Adrian). tho i do agree with him.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Hi Jame. i assume you are responding to the paragraph you quoted. if this is so, then Sridhar wrote that, not me (Adrian). tho i do agree with him. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] James Mellema [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:58:51 AM 1/17/01 Adrian Smith wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? Adrian, For egotistical reasons I am tempted to agree with you, but I think in the real world that's a poor way to look at the problems here. Everyone had to learn somehow, but just because you and I learned in the school of hard knocks doesn't mean everyone has to. There is no reason to need an advanced degree in comp sci to use a computer. If you want the computer to be a tool it has to be usable by those that need it. If you want it to be an ego trip for the cognoscenti then what you say is true. The Drake tools are very good and easy to use for those of us with more than a smattering of technical knowledge. But without better documentation they are a huge barrier for the average user. Some of the problems I see with Mandrake are trying to use the server install instead of workstation, (I wiped out 3 gigs of webpages, graphics files, and programs on ide2) probably 20 installs before I figured out a reasonable partitioning scheme, multiple development programs an libraries which just take space and are not usable for most users, multiple programs which are extraneous for the majority of users (i.e. text editors, mail programs, web tools, system monitors, and sound/video multimedia programs). I would like to see a documentation link on the splash screen as you open the installation program. Ideally it could be in pdf format and open a pdf client that would give simple steps to the installation process. This could also define terms and give examples of what is necessary for a minimum install, as well as provide warnings about terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: 1) install linux prior to WIN2K, 2) do not use 'server' installation on a dual boot computer, (or one with data you would like to keep), 3) known unreconcilable hardware problems (windmodems, incompatible peripherals) 4) The steps necessary to create a dual boot machine. I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Fortunately I have several computers and don't have to take the chance at destroying my workstation to experiment, most of the computing population doesn't have that advantage. Linux isn't easy but it will have to become easier if it is to become a standard in the business community, and amongst the computing public. Most people don't want to experiment, they would like to use their computer to surf the web, write the odd letter, track their checkbook, and keep records. There is no reason to make things difficult (or impossible) for Joe User. The past 20 years is littered with good ideas, hardware and software that didn't take that unnecessary difficulty into account -- Jim -- James Mellema, MA CRNA -- Linux User # 71650 ICQ #19685870
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Adrian, :) I have the same problem with my fingers. Except sometimes my fingers are too fat for the keys and they miss altogether. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, Adrian Smith wrote: opps... i mean, Hi James (wasn't trying to call you a name or something) =) my fingers sometimes i don't think they listen to my brain. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1:47:01 PM 1/17/01 Hi Jame. i assume you are responding to the paragraph you quoted. if this is so, then Sridhar wrote that, not me (Adrian). tho i do agree with him.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Mark Weaver wrote: Script kiddies, and the folks that just can't grasp the concept of a mouse let alone what the mouse is connected to. And I know a few that fall into the second category. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds What is a script kiddie and as a newbie who is having a HE!!UVA time upgrading my Mdk7.2 KDE 2.01 to 2.1 B2, am I one? -michael-
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Script kiddies are the loving folks generally described as such that are cranking out all the code that all the folks running windows are paying companys like symantec and McAfee all the big money to protect them from. In short...friggin virus writters. The software companies should either give them jobs or they should be taken to the public square and publically beaten till then repent for being a generally HUGE pain in the ass the computing public. And no...you're not a script kiddie. you're a new Linux user like the rest of us were at one time who has bigger stones then I did whenn I first started using Linux 2 years ago messing around upgrading KDE already. Now, that being said I think it would be a wise idea for you to follow an incremental upgrade to KDE rather then attempting to move from 2.0.1 right to 2.1.beta2. It's hard enough going from 2.1beta1 to beta2 without having to worry about all the troubles you're getting into without going thri beta1 first. I could be wrong about the incremental thing. You may want to contact Chris Molnar about that, but it seems as though I heard that was the proper way to do the KDE upgrade. I'm still waiting to hear back from Chris myself before continuing on with the upgrade from beta1 to beta 2 because of some strange dependency issues I'm having that I didn't have when I went from 2.0.1 to 2.1beta1. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, -michael- wrote: Mark Weaver wrote: Script kiddies, and the folks that just can't grasp the concept of a mouse let alone what the mouse is connected to. And I know a few that fall into the second category. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds What is a script kiddie and as a newbie who is having a HE!!UVA time upgrading my Mdk7.2 KDE 2.01 to 2.1 B2, am I one? -michael-
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Adrian Smith wrote: opps... i mean, Hi James (wasn't trying to call you a name or something) =) my fingers sometimes i don't think they listen to my brain. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1:47:01 PM 1/17/01 Hi Jame. i assume you are responding to the paragraph you quoted. if this is so, then Sridhar wrote that, not me (Adrian). tho i do agree with him. Adrian, No problem about the name, I didn't notice it till you pointed it out. As for who wrote the quoted text, I think I cut the quote too close, sorry. I'm not rying to put anyone down, I'm just trying to make a case for continued improvement. I stand behind what I said. I don't agree with the idea that we have to keep linux (or Mandrake in particular) at the level of difficulty and documentation that is currently the standard. Yes its a rush to have someone glance at the screen on my laptop and realize that I'm not using windows. But its been a tough road to get to this stage and I would like very much to make it easier for the next users. I am not a computer professional, although I have taught and done consulting for small businesses and home users. My experience with windows leads me to belive that most users could fit right into Mandrake if the docuemntation and basic information barriers were overcome. My first experience wiht Mandrake 6.0 (not linux, I'd been using Redhat and Caldera for a couple of years) was impressive, and I could belive that here was a company on the road to making linux a useful alternative. The docuemtation was an order of magnitude better than any of the alternatives I had seen. I have downloaded the software since then and have not dealt with the documentation so I don't know if it has improved. I'd like to hope so, but from the calls I've recieved from friends I think not. They still have the same problems I mentioed in my last post with uncertainty as to how to proceed with partitioning, and package selection. I have also heard of several people who have unnecessarily trashed dual boot systems because the requisite information was not readily available to prevent serious damage to a working system. -- Jim -- James Mellema, CRNA -- Linux User # 71650 ICQ #19685870
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Mark Johnson wrote: snip terminal (as in kill your computer) problems. Some examples could be: I think this is a wonderful idea too, but why PDF? I'd rather HMTL or plain text... I never really thought much about it, I just like pdf text. it reminds me of books. My objection to HTML is how it looks on different browsers, but in thinking about it that would not be an issue here I did a portion of my Master's work on usability problems. Much of it based on my long, difficult, and destructive attempts at learning linux. Wow, do you have anything published that I could read on this subject. I very interested in this sort of thing. No, I never published anything on my own, some of my stuff went into work one of my professors was doing, but I can't point wiht pride to scholarly writing. It seems that one thing MS and Apple have is a dedicated group that help solve usability problems that are not so closely tied to the techy/developer mentality. I don't know for sure but I don't think this is true for the KDE, GNOME, etc. groups (correct me if I'm wrong), my impression is that there is some gathering of ideas from the community about usability issues, but the ideas come from and are processed by folks higher-up on the computer food chain instead of from the middle or lower regions. I think this is one of the major problems with Linux in general. Documentation is written for techys by techys (sorry for the derogatory tone, I hold techys in high esteem and aspire to that status someday). It needs to be written for Joe Computeruser by people who understand the software but can look at the systems the way a user does. Telling me after about 40 installs to partition a drive has a much lower fear factor than a roookie. If I screw up I can start over again without a problem, Joe might not know how to recover. snip Just recently my wife has shown some interest in installing Linux because she wants to see what the gimp is like since she is a web developer. And though I am a little apprehensive about this venture, it will be when folks like her reach a critical mass that some usablility innovation will show up in the OS. Right, I agree with that 100% -- Jim -- James Mellema, CRNA -- Linux User # 71650 ICQ #19685870
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
OK y'all !!This marks the last time I'm gonna start a thread starting with a news wire URL, well maybe ; Actually I thought it was a business story that kind'a illustrated Linux's present state, and the perception of. The first full install I did of Mandrake was ~500mb. A current 'du -ch /' with my windoze drive umounted is ~4 gigs! ... and I've uninstalled a lot of the apps I don't use, and there's linux stuff on the windoze drive, not in that count. I like it just the way it is, the installer that is. What brandNewbie doesn't install several times before they 'settle in' ? ...and for experienced users, it's easy, albeit time consuming, to install just what you want. As much or little. LM's installation let's YOU choose. I believe there's nothin that needs changin. I like the current trend in Mandrake's installs. As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead. -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
I'll admit, I have been a little harsh lately about Linux and user friendliness. To those whom I've offended, I apologise. Sometimes Windos and Windos users can drive you nuts :-) What I have meant to say all along is that Drakx itself is not a problem from a user-friendly perspective. Sure, it could use some tweaks here and there, but is is mostly complete. What Drax *does* need, however, is better documentation. This should be built into Drakx, not just available for $$$ with the boxed set. The current documentation is not too bad, but could be improved, especially for newbies. James, your idea of a documentation link is quite good, and I'd like to see something like it in the next version of Mandrake. While I have never seen the official Mandrake printed documentation (I download isos and burn them), I have heard that these are Mandrake's Achilles heel, and should be rectified ASAP to make Mandrake a trully great choice for total newbies. I do have one problem with making Linux more user-friendly for newbies, however. I strongly believe that to use an OS you must understand how it works. I don't mean newbies should be able to compile code and the like (although this is pretty easy), they just need to know the Linux fundamentals. For example, people could learn to appreciate Linux more if they just knew how it came to be. We don't just want to teach people Linux, we need to teach them about the meanings of open source, GPL, the Free Software Foundation and the like. If people don't know these things (they only need to know these things briefly), they will just bring over their bad habits from Windos. Many Windos users who have just started to use Linux expect everything to be commercial and slick. They expect everything to be hidden from them unless they really need it. Some get abusive (believe me, I know) when Free Software doesn't suit them the way they like. Some GPL projects have been canned because developers have felt disenchanted due to constant abuse from people who don't understand that these people are sacrificing their free time just to create these programmes. Look at what the press said about Kernel 2.4. They had a field day poking fun at Linus and the other developers/volunteers. They listened to Linus' projections (on the release date) and made their own predictions on what would happen, and turned these into deadlines. When these were not met, they got angry and attacked the open source movement as a whole. They did not, and still do not, understand the open source philosophy of releasing something only when it is finished. They have grown accustomed to companies trying to meet their deadlines and then releasing a half-baked product. Many people don't think of Free Software as in free speech, but rather as in free beer. Most people pirate software for Windos, so with either OS they are getting stuff for "free". So, they think, why are Linux programmes so much worse? Although many of these people realise that copying most Windos software is illegal, they can't help but think this. I could go on and on with this, but I think you all get my point. People need to *understand* an OS, not just know how to use some graphical tool that does everything automagically for them. They don't need to be kernel developers, they just need a basic understanding of the Linux ethos and how it works. On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 04:58, James Mellema wrote: Adrian Smith wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6:12:43 AM 1/15/01 I personally don't like this solution, but it's yet another way for Linux (and Mandrake) to gain market share (at the expense of becoming more like M$). I believe that if anyone is stupid enough not to understand the already very user-friendly Mandrake Drakx, then they shouldn't be using Linux at all. What do everyone else here think? Adrian, For egotistical reasons I am tempted to agree with you, but I think in the real world that's a poor way to look at the problems here. Everyone had to learn somehow, but just because you and I learned in the school of hard knocks doesn't mean everyone has to. There is no reason to need an advanced degree in comp sci to use a computer. If you want the computer to be a tool it has to be usable by those that need it. If you want it to be an ego trip for the cognoscenti then what you say is true. The Drake tools are very good and easy to use for those of us with more than a smattering of technical knowledge. But without better documentation they are a huge barrier for the average user. Some of the problems I see with Mandrake are trying to use the server install instead of workstation, (I wiped out 3 gigs of webpages, graphics files, and programs on ide2) probably 20 installs before I figured out a reasonable partitioning scheme, multiple development programs an libraries which just take space and are not usable for most users, multiple programs which are
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:29, Tom Brinkman wrote: As to the 'convert windoze users', and get "linux on everybody's desktop' vein this thread has denigrated to. WHO CARES? Seriously, be more concerned that Linux continues to attract the people that built it to begin with ... the people all over the world that contribute to this free, open source, volunteer effort. Without them, Linux is dead. Tom, You make an excellent point here. We seem to be forgetting the ones who built Linux into the great OS it is in favour of converting Windos users. I believe that both are important, but we must think of the former before we think of the latter, or Linux risks becoming another Windoze. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. Your mouse has moved. Windows must be rebooted to acknowledge this change.
Re: [Re: [Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux]]
Mark Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: argument that linux can not be used in a M$ world is also bogus (or FUD). I can't help it any longer...what in the world does FUD stand for? -- Mark = Hi Mark, It's: Fear - Uncertainty - Doubt 8^) Mike "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -Benjamin Frankilin Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail
Re: [Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux]
On Monday 15 January 2001 11:31 pm, you wrote: On 15 Jan 2001 23:25:49 -0500, Mark Weaver wrote: argument that linux can not be used in a M$ world is also bogus (or FUD). I can't help it any longer...what in the world does FUD stand for? Fear, Uncertainity and Doubt. Cool...thanks. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
What is the total amount of space it would need if you installed Linux and the app cds all together? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Robert, My latest developer install on my workstation at work was a little over 2GB. That sucker is loaded to the gills. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Robert Beach wrote: What is the total amount of space it would need if you installed Linux and the app cds all together? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
On Monday 15 January 2001 02:34, you wrote: That proves my point. You know what you're doing, but green newbies don't usually choose expert mode, they click "workstation install" and it fills up their harddrives. Ummm, we did a survey a while back--80% choose expert install and only 20% of that same group know what "rpm" is. With drives getting bigger it's less of an issue, but they still end up with big installs. It's either give a smaller, less-feature-rich choice, or linux will continue to be a geek operating system. I know that a lot of linux users want to keep it that way. JMO, as always. eryl "Simpler" can be read in many ways. As Tood Volz uses it, it means "Free of complications and choices". As we use it, it means, "Easier". Part of the goal is achieved. Ever tried to install Windows? What happens when not all the devices are detected? What happens when you discover you don't have the driver disk for the sound card and the company that made it is out of business? How many times do you have to try to tweak the install of the video drivers and the DVD decoder before they work together? At any time in that process, do you have a feeling that you can actually know what is happening? Most hardware rigs these days you drop in the CD and hit reset and answer a few preference questions with Mandrake. Post-installation of Drivers are for a few manufacturers that haven't got the idea that they wouldn't have to support their drivers if they didn't keep them secret. And I have seen cases where the Win install would detect either of my network cards but not both in combination--so I would leave one out during install... Then try to add it later and fight the windows wizards that kept popping up "NO NO NO-I have to detect that for you!!!" Well, wizard, if you could detect it I wouldn't be trying this(mutters imprecations). Of course it has been a year since I have seen a Win screen for any other purpose than testing its compatibility with linux--perhaps it has gotten easier as well. But for most, I think the perceived "ease" is that it comes preinstalled. So I think we have part of "easier". We are working along several lines to accomplish the rest. Restricting freedom of choice is not one of the options. This doesn't have to mean you get everything installed so you can make a choice... pre-chosen scenarios are a possibility but we need user preference data for that. So anyway Let's get some data. Anyone who wants can write me in the next two weeks with their preferences--their vision of one editor, one word-processor, one mailer, one browser. one window manager, one remote configurator, one local configurator, The ideal system for the raw newbie. DON'T clutter the list with that bandwidth-eating activity, write direct. I'll gather the data and publish the results, and I'll let the figures speak for themselves in regard to statistical significance--to see if the answers are indicative of one or even several "solutions". I will be pretty busy he next two weeks, so don't think your choices weren't delivered. Anyone up for this challenge? Remember, think beginner, then choose the app you would want to use most if you knew little or nothing. And choose an app for everything you do with the computer. Civileme
RE: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
My impression is that the Linux community in general cannot decide whether linux should be seen as a viable desktop alternative to Windows and MAC, or a viable backend alternative to Solaris, or simply as a hobbyist OS. (To me the former is very debatable, the laters are more realistic.) I think that linux will never be a viable desktop for the masses until productivity software is as common as it is for Windows (but then, i guess, linux programmers would have to contend with the "dumb windows user" mentality). I know that a couple of months ago the Linux Journal had a multi-media issue that showed how linux could be used for generating music and movies, and while interesting, it's not even comparable to the multimedia power of the MAC and BeOS. (I can't open any application without XMMS "coughing" on me) To me it seems that despite all linux advances it is still _just_ an inexpensive internet sever (web, mail, news, etc..), and a hobbyist OS for developers. I think a lot of the reason why is the elitism that Linux folks have and distain for the "dumb windows user." What's needed is a real paradigm shift within the community. Yeah, we have token companies like Gnome and Eazel that genuinely care and are compassionate about the computer food-chain, but this isn't enough. (What's up with this in-fighting between KDE and Gnome?) Then again, maybe the fate of linux is never to become a computer for the common user, but rather a development environment for programmers and web developers. We seem very divided on this issue. One last thing, I'm not complaining really, it just that I think there are different priorities that drive linux compared to the other OSs. Consequently, there are opportunity costs and trade-offs. The thing that really bothers me is the elitism. -Original Message- From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux using the expert mode on the install, my package install was 347.2mb. That includes KDE2 with Koffice the network stuuf. Blackbox. Abiword and all the other stuff that is needed. After adding a bunch of updated and stuff from the unsupported dir it whent up to 422.7 mb. Now mandrake make it so easy to add/remove packages that when I need to compile a program from source, I install those packages then and remove them when I am finshed. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 eryl wrote: john rigby wrote: The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. I agree. That's been one of the problems I have with linux. When I hand a linux disk to one of my Windows using friends to try, I tell them that the minimum workstation GUI install will take about 1.5 gigabytes. Everyone gives me the "Huh". Why? Because Windoze 98, with office and a bunch of other programs takes about 600 meg. The distros need something like a "Minimal GUI Install" that includes KDE office, One text editor, one file manager, etc. Everything should be available, but face it--for these newbies it's not necessary. Once they find out that they really like using linux, then they have room to experiment. My Mom does not need 5 different terminals or 6 window managers, and she will never have any use for developmental tools.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
ve token companies like Gnome and Eazel that genuinely care and are compassionate about the computer food-chain, but this isn't enough. (What's up with this in-fighting between KDE and Gnome?) Then again, maybe the fate of linux is never to become a computer for the common user, but rather a development environment for programmers and web developers. We seem very divided on this issue. One last thing, I'm not complaining really, it just that I think there are different priorities that drive linux compared to the other OSs. Consequently, there are opportunity costs and trade-offs. The thing that really bothers me is the elitism. -Original Message- From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux using the expert mode on the install, my package install was 347.2mb. That includes KDE2 with Koffice the network stuuf. Blackbox. Abiword and all the other stuff that is needed. After adding a bunch of updated and stuff from the unsupported dir it whent up to 422.7 mb. Now mandrake make it so easy to add/remove packages that when I need to compile a program from source, I install those packages then and remove them when I am finshed. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 eryl wrote: john rigby wrote: The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. I agree. That's been one of the problems I have with linux. When I hand a linux disk to one of my Windows using friends to try, I tell them that the minimum workstation GUI install will take about 1.5 gigabytes. Everyone gives me the "Huh". Why? Because Windoze 98, with office and a bunch of other programs takes about 600 meg. The distros need something like a "Minimal GUI Install" that includes KDE office, One text editor, one file manager, etc. Everything should be available, but face it--for these newbies it's not necessary. Once they find out that they really like using linux, then they have room to experiment. My Mom does not need 5 different terminals or 6 window managers, and she will never have any use for developmental tools. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. Your mouse has moved. Windows must be rebooted to acknowledge this change.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
al Message- From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux using the expert mode on the install, my package install was 347.2mb. That includes KDE2 with Koffice the network stuuf. Blackbox. Abiword and all the other stuff that is needed. After adding a bunch of updated and stuff from the unsupported dir it whent up to 422.7 mb. Now mandrake make it so easy to add/remove packages that when I need to compile a program from source, I install those packages then and remove them when I am finshed. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 eryl wrote: john rigby wrote: The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. I agree. That's been one of the problems I have with linux. When I hand a linux disk to one of my Windows using friends to try, I tell them that the minimum workstation GUI install will take about 1.5 gigabytes. Everyone gives me the "Huh". Why? Because Windoze 98, with office and a bunch of other programs takes about 600 meg. The distros need something like a "Minimal GUI Install" that includes KDE office, One text editor, one file manager, etc. Everything should be available, but face it--for these newbies it's not necessary. Once they find out that they really like using linux, then they have room to experiment. My Mom does not need 5 different terminals or 6 window managers, and she will never have any use for developmental tools.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
ronment for programmers and web developers. We seem very divided on this issue. One last thing, I'm not complaining really, it just that I think there are different priorities that drive linux compared to the other OSs. Consequently, there are opportunity costs and trade-offs. The thing that really bothers me is the elitism. -Original Message- From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux using the expert mode on the install, my package install was 347.2mb. That includes KDE2 with Koffice the network stuuf. Blackbox. Abiword and all the other stuff that is needed. After adding a bunch of updated and stuff from the unsupported dir it whent up to 422.7 mb. Now mandrake make it so easy to add/remove packages that when I need to compile a program from source, I install those packages then and remove them when I am finshed. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 eryl wrote: john rigby wrote: The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. I agree. That's been one of the problems I have with linux. When I hand a linux disk to one of my Windows using friends to try, I tell them that the minimum workstation GUI install will take about 1.5 gigabytes. Everyone gives me the "Huh". Why? Because Windoze 98, with office and a bunch of other programs takes about 600 meg. The distros need something like a "Minimal GUI Install" that includes KDE office, One text editor, one file manager, etc. Everything should be available, but face it--for these newbies it's not necessary. Once they find out that they really like using linux, then they have room to experiment. My Mom does not need 5 different terminals or 6 window managers, and she will never have any use for developmental tools.
Re: [Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux]
abe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Over here at my house Linux IS, right now, a better alternative to windows or Mac. I'm a full time student and I work part time. I cannot afford to buy programs for windows and I surely cannot afford a Mac that would perform on par with my PC (G4). I do everything with linux. I write papers for school, do my taxes, write letters, email, chat, rip encode MP3's * .ogg's, Create images with the GIMP, play Quake3, UT and other games. Come on man what more do you want? Big Snip for sake of saving bandwith === Abe, I agree with virtualy all of your objections to the original argument about Linux NOT being ready for the desktop. I've been using Linux exclusively for about 20 months now and my usage is similar to yours [well, at 48 years old, I don't do much ripping of MP3's - though my teen age sons do, ON LINUX - and I don't chat or play games beyond the occasional hand of Free Cell - though, again, the sons.]. But I would like to add one more point: Many linux programs have become amazingly successful at handling M$ Office and other progams files. I have students from both high school and colleges e-mail me Word attachments (essays, papers and such) all the time. I open them in StarOffice 5.x, edit in red, save as Word 97, e-mail the attachment back, w/o a single problem! I was provided a copy of my HS budget by central office, 55 pages long, in Excel. StarOffice opened it without so much as a burp. I did extensive editing, printed it out, saved it as both a SO.sdw file and as an .xcl file (for central office purposes), again w/NO problem what-so-ever. My point being that the argument that linux can not be used in a M$ world is also bogus (or FUD). AFAIAC, linux is quite ready for MY desktop. [BTW, I use Blackbox as my environment, but very much like the ability to utilize both KDE and Gnome apps (e.g., kppp, kbiff, Gnome-cal, and others). Just my $.02, Mike "Many loads of beer were brought. What disorder, whoring, fighting, killing and dreadful idolatry took place there!" Baltasar Rusow, Estonia, 16th century Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Yep, thats why I got it, and best of all, its free! (The OS itself) well even better it don't crash and jam up your whole machine. hehe Linux riules On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, abe wrote: Honestly I am very tired of hearing these arguments. Mandrakes distribution has done nothing but get better for the past year. Here's what I mean by "better" 1. Massive choices
Re: [Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux]
argument that linux can not be used in a M$ world is also bogus (or FUD). I can't help it any longer...what in the world does FUD stand for? -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Mark Johnson wrote: My impression is that the Linux community in general cannot decide whether linux should be seen as a viable desktop alternative to Windows and MAC, or a viable backend alternative to Solaris, or simply as a hobbyist OS. (To me the former is very debatable, the laters are more realistic.) I think that linux will never be a viable desktop for the masses until productivity software is as common as it is for Windows (but then, i guess, linux programmers would have to contend with the "dumb windows user" mentality). I know that a couple of months ago the Linux Journal had a multi-media issue that showed how linux could be used for generating music and movies, and while interesting, it's not even comparable to the multimedia power of the MAC and BeOS. (I can't open any application without XMMS "coughing" on me) To me it seems that despite all linux advances it is still _just_ an inexpensive internet sever (web, mail, news, etc..), and a hobbyist OS for developers. I think a lot of the reason why is the elitism that Linux folks have and distain for the "dumb windows user." What's needed is a real paradigm shift within the community. Yeah, we have token companies like Gnome and Eazel that genuinely care and are compassionate about the computer food-chain, but this isn't enough. (What's up with this in-fighting between KDE and Gnome?) Then again, maybe the fate of linux is never to become a computer for the common user, but rather a development environment for programmers and web developers. We seem very divided on this issue. One last thing, I'm not complaining really, it just that I think there are different priorities that drive linux compared to the other OSs. Consequently, there are opportunity costs and trade-offs. The thing that really bothers me is the elitism. -Original Message- From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux using the expert mode on the install, my package install was 347.2mb. That includes KDE2 with Koffice the network stuuf. Blackbox. Abiword and all the other stuff that is needed. After adding a bunch of updated and stuff from the unsupported dir it whent up to 422.7 mb. Now mandrake make it so easy to add/remove packages that when I need to compile a program from source, I install those packages then and remove them when I am finshed. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 eryl wrote: john rigby wrote: The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. I agree. That's been one of the problems I have with linux. When I hand a linux disk to one of my Windows using friends to try, I tell them that the minimum workstation GUI install will take about 1.5 gigabytes. Everyone gives me the "Huh". Why? Because Windoze 98, with office and a bunch of other programs takes about 600 meg. The distros need something like a "Minimal GUI Install" that includes KDE office, One text editor, one file manager, etc. Everything should be available, but face it--for these newbies it's not necessary. Once they find out that they really like using linux, then they have room to experiment. My Mom does not need 5 different terminals or 6 window managers, and she will never have any use for developmental tools. Just another 2 cents from a newbie; I use Linux because IT WORKS! The first PC I ever used was plain Vanilla DOS. Back then we carved our own windows and climbed in and out of them the hard way, with a little help from our friends. The Linux community seems to have that same spirit. I have been using Windows for a few years, but have never liked it. LM was the answer to my problem. I think that LM could be an alternative to Windows, not by making it more "user friendly," but by getting more productivity software to run efficiently on it, without having to be a programmer to install it. That doesn't mean to make it "for idiots." Can't we find a happy medium? User friendly, to me just means "limited." I would like to see LM become less like MS, not more! LM 7.2 was a big dissapointment to me. I went back to 7.1, which is the best OS I have ever used. I hope that the next distribution will have all the bugs out of it, because 7.2 would have been really nice, if I could get it to run properly. As it stands, it was just a tease. ShalomOut Chal
Re: [Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux]
On Monday 15 January 2001 19:31, regarding Re: [Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux], you said: On 15 Jan 2001 23:25:49 -0500, Mark Weaver wrote: argument that linux can not be used in a M$ world is also bogus (or FUD). I can't help it any longer...what in the world does FUD stand for? Fear, Uncertainity and Doubt. (F**ked Up, Dude!) -- ~enjoy!~ -michael-
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
using the expert mode on the install, my package install was 347.2mb. That includes KDE2 with Koffice the network stuuf. Blackbox. Abiword and all the other stuff that is needed. After adding a bunch of updated and stuff from the unsupported dir it whent up to 422.7 mb. Now mandrake make it so easy to add/remove packages that when I need to compile a program from source, I install those packages then and remove them when I am finshed. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 eryl wrote: john rigby wrote: The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. I agree. That's been one of the problems I have with linux. When I hand a linux disk to one of my Windows using friends to try, I tell them that the minimum workstation GUI install will take about 1.5 gigabytes. Everyone gives me the "Huh". Why? Because Windoze 98, with office and a bunch of other programs takes about 600 meg. The distros need something like a "Minimal GUI Install" that includes KDE office, One text editor, one file manager, etc. Everything should be available, but face it--for these newbies it's not necessary. Once they find out that they really like using linux, then they have room to experiment. My Mom does not need 5 different terminals or 6 window managers, and she will never have any use for developmental tools.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
I don't think so as that was my inpression as well. Also don't forget programs that have millions of features that are pointless and no one uses. Mark Hillary Registered Linux User 200755 Miark wrote: Dan, great letter, and good follow-ups from the rest of you. I do a decent job of trying to understand others' viewpoints before condemning them to eternal fire and Liberace records, but Todd's view here is just lame. Again, the truth is beautifully expressed thusly: "Obviously, things need to be simple for users, but I don't think restricting choice is really the answer." Lame-o seems to have used the term "bloatware" to describe the number of packages in a given distribution, but I've been using it to mean a _single_ package that is * Sloppily written, and so takes up lots-o-disk space, * Eats up system resources as if it's the only app in existence, * And, consequently, works slower than it should. Have I been leading a life of error? Miark - Original Message - From: "Denis HAVLIK" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux Folks, don't worry about it. Journalists think that it's fancy to cryticise linux this season, so they do. What Henri said counts, and that's: yust my .022 euro... cu Denis On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, abe wrote: :~Now, if you just say yes to everything then you are going to get one :~hell of an install! But my favorite passtime with my linux box for the :~first few months was to sit down and try all those programs. Fire em up :~and see what happens. It was great fun and a good way to get :~comfortable with the new environment too. :~ ... :~ :~That article is just more FUD. -- - Dr. Denis Havlik http://MandrakeForum.com Mandrakesoft ||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --oOO--(_)--OOo- The mailserver is on strike. It wants better working conditions, paid days off and a female connector. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
yes...thank you MandrakeSoft. I'm in 100% agreement there with Dennis. I love what you're doing with this Distro. Absotlutely the best. :) Even if it does make me nuts sometimes. Just means I have more to learn. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Dennis Myers wrote: On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, you wrote: http://www.upside.com/Open_Season/3a5b574d60.html HM. I'm afraid I agree with Mr. Poole. There's a difference between bloat and choice. Frankly, I like the choices I'm given with the Powerpack Deluxe. If I wanted just a desktop I would have stayed with the net d/l or bought the Deluxe box. This way I can try a lot of different things and work my way into development as I slowly learn how to do the programming. Thanks MandrakeSoft, I enjoy your product. Dennis M. registered linux user # 180842
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Come now...taking over the world PC market isn't going to happen over night. It has to progress normally one PC and one user at a time. In my opinion what really needs to happen is that all the different distros and window managers need to quell "aLL" of the infighting and fussing that is going on between them, i.e. the Gnome - KDE war of this past summer, and show a united _LINUX_ front. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, john rigby wrote: Ha folks, The real problem with the slow uptake of the fantastic Linux System is that it *is* trying to be all things to all people. There is a VAST difference between the BASIC USER and the TRADITIONAL *ux HACKER. The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. The ideal install situation is maybe a 2 disk set: Disk A: SIMPLE up-and-go basic Linux with USEABLE *OFFICE* APPLICATIONS vis: StarOffice, KDOffice, Browser, IE Lookalike Mail program and that is it. NO, repeat NO, Developer stuff needed. Disk B: All the Developer stuff - and certainly no GUI needed. Hackers like to get dirty and "change their own oil". :-) Cheers, John-The-Perpetually-Frustrated-User-ONLY- (Since Fortran and CP/M) - Original Message - From: "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance to slim things down for the regular user a distressing sign.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
I thought he was full of it too. When I first started using mandrake (5.2 I think?) I got a working linux system in a 500 M partition with enough room in ~/abe to keep me happy. Now, if you just say yes to everything then you are going to get one hell of an install! But my favorite passtime with my linux box for the first few months was to sit down and try all those programs. Fire em up and see what happens. It was great fun and a good way to get comfortable with the new environment too. Give me emacs and vim and joe and pico and so on and so forth over notepad and wordpad anyday. Xmms, grip, freeamp, kmp3, and so on over windows media player. I think you all get the point ;-) That article is just more FUD. Abe Adrian Smith wrote: quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance to slim things down for the regular user a distressing sign. quote from adrian: where is my shotgun? mandrake comes on 2 CDs with: 1 OS 10 window managers 100+ programs winsux comes on 1 CD with 1 OS bloat? where's the bloat i think someone missed the bloat. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:54:26 AM 1/10/01 http://www.upside.com/Open_Season/3a5b574d60.html -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
sure and with no development tools you will never be able to recompile the kernel or an app that you use all the time. Most new programs that you download won't install because they need libraries to work. Development tools are required to have a whole linux operating system. Tke away the development tools and linux may as well BE wandows or crapintosh. For the record here I am not a programmer. The only "language" I know is english, html and potty mouth ;-) I'm just a computer user who like to have as much control over my system as I can and I am willing to learn what it takes to do that. Huh, pretty much sums up my overall epistemology about life now that I think about it. Abe john rigby wrote: Ha folks, The real problem with the slow uptake of the fantastic Linux System is that it *is* trying to be all things to all people. There is a VAST difference between the BASIC USER and the TRADITIONAL *ux HACKER. The 99.99% of people out in the Cyberbog that Linux NEEDS to reach/convert to save us all from Bill, do not need now, in the future, ever, ANY Development Tools. The ideal install situation is maybe a 2 disk set: Disk A: SIMPLE up-and-go basic Linux with USEABLE *OFFICE* APPLICATIONS vis: StarOffice, KDOffice, Browser, IE Lookalike Mail program and that is it. NO, repeat NO, Developer stuff needed. Disk B: All the Developer stuff - and certainly no GUI needed. Hackers like to get dirty and "change their own oil". :-) Cheers, John-The-Perpetually-Frustrated-User-ONLY- (Since Fortran and CP/M) - Original Message - From: "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance to slim things down for the regular user a distressing sign.
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Congratulations on an excellent reply to a pathetic article. I couldn't have done it better myself. On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:54, Dan LaBine wrote: Just for the record, here's the response I sent to Mr. Volz ; Dear Todd; Interesting article . Was this picaresque novella written to judge the reaction of the general public? Were you attempting to take a survey of Linux enthusiasts, and some bonehead in your marketing department said "Hey let's write something demeaning and shallow, and see what the readers do"? Or, ARE YOU NUTS ???!!! I can't beleive (although you're making it mighty easy) that someone of your apparent stature wouldn't see the benefits and necessity of providing an abundance of applications. First, let's consider the current situation in regards to available software. Typically, it's very expensive, and doesn't always provide what the customer is looking for. If it manages to accomplish this particular feat, chances are that it will be difficult to learn. How many people are totally satisfied with a particular piece of software. If they master it, they usually ending up jumping at the next version hoping it has the improvements that they feel it needs. And so the vicious circle begins. Upgrade after expensive upgrade. But how many more buy it, try it, and fry it? They get fed up and give up. Wouldn't it be great if they could try several and make their own decision. Perhaps they would appreciate certain features of one application, and other features of another. Your article seems to suggest that these choices should be made for the public by someone else, and that the consumer should simply accept what is offered. In other words, having been caught up in the insidious trap deployed by Microsoft, we should now allow history to repeat itself with Linux? How Orwellian of you. Haven't you clued in yet? Linux is all about choice ! It's about having an opportunity to not only personalize the way your desktop looks, it's about choosing the software you want to use without having to pay through the nose for it. I also noticed that you have taken it upon yourself to decide what people do and don't want on their computers. My firm ships out hundreds of computer per week, and my tech support department handles large quantities of phone calls regarding a larger range of questions. The funny thing is, they're almost all about how to select software, and how to personalize their computers. Having been in this business for almost 14 years, I've seen software companies come and go. Remember Delrina ? Global Village? I do. I remember that they expected consumers to pay high price tags for software, and I remember that they didn't give a rat's ass about discontinuing support or revisions to existing software. I remember may others doing the same, and I'm sure that you do as well. Wouldn't it be great if you already had a large selection of software you could pick from? One of the most repetitive accolades we receive from our clients is that we take the time to "Demystify" how computers and software work. The majority of our clients (Corporate and Individual by the way) are surprised and pleased to learn about their IT investments, especially when it's explained in Plain Old English. The terminology is what scares most people, not the necessity to choose from too many programs. They certainly don't have a problem learning, they have a problem understanding "Techno-Babble" It can be as painful as listening to a politician who's trying to tell the truth ! No Sir ! You're way off the mark ! In this day and age, consumers are being treated like idiots. They don't like it one bit, and I don't either. Ever had surgery done? I'll bet you appreciated having the surgeon explain WHY they were going to remove that part of your brain that gives you a conscience, and what was involved, right? Well consumers are exactly the same. They want to know, but they don't want to be treated like morons in the process. Your article strongly suggests that these decisions and choices should be made by the companies who make the products. I find the implication insulting. So would my clients. In the future, please pay more attention to the ramifications of what you say in your articles. What's next Terry? Left handed mice for everyone, and we'll let Henry Ford pick the color of every car ? ( any Color you want,...as long as it's black!) Have a nice day ! Dan LaBine MCSE, MCP. General Manager, Atlantis Computers Ltd. President Maximum L.A.N.'s Ltd. - Original Message - From: "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Man
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Hi Abe Agrered here completely. Sadly, companies like microsoft seem to be willy to tell you what you want.. The various Linux distros on the other hand seem to be willing to give you the choice. This later approach is what I much prefer myself. Sure, you choose all options then you get one hell of a package installed (bloatwise), but once you know what you want, you end up with quite an effcient and reasonable sized package. James - Original Message - From: "abe" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux I thought he was full of it too. When I first started using mandrake (5.2 I think?) I got a working linux system in a 500 M partition with enough room in ~/abe to keep me happy. Now, if you just say yes to everything then you are going to get one hell of an install! But my favorite passtime with my linux box for the first few months was to sit down and try all those programs. Fire em up and see what happens. It was great fun and a good way to get comfortable with the new environment too. Give me emacs and vim and joe and pico and so on and so forth over notepad and wordpad anyday. Xmms, grip, freeamp, kmp3, and so on over windows media player. I think you all get the point ;-) That article is just more FUD. Abe Adrian Smith wrote: quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance to slim things down for the regular user a distressing sign. quote from adrian: where is my shotgun? mandrake comes on 2 CDs with: 1 OS 10 window managers 100+ programs winsux comes on 1 CD with 1 OS bloat? where's the bloat i think someone missed the bloat. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:54:26 AM 1/10/01 http://www.upside.com/Open_Season/3a5b574d60.html -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Folks, don't worry about it. Journalists think that it's fancy to cryticise linux this season, so they do. What Henri said counts, and that's: "Obviously, things need to be simple for users, but I don't think restricting choice is really the answer." yust my .022 euro... cu Denis On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, abe wrote: :~Now, if you just say yes to everything then you are going to get one :~hell of an install! But my favorite passtime with my linux box for the :~first few months was to sit down and try all those programs. Fire em up :~and see what happens. It was great fun and a good way to get :~comfortable with the new environment too. :~ ... :~ :~That article is just more FUD. -- - Dr. Denis Havlik http://MandrakeForum.com Mandrakesoft ||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --oOO--(_)--OOo- The mailserver is on strike. It wants better working conditions, paid days off and a female connector. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Dan, great letter, and good follow-ups from the rest of you. I do a decent job of trying to understand others' viewpoints before condemning them to eternal fire and Liberace records, but Todd's view here is just lame. Again, the truth is beautifully expressed thusly: "Obviously, things need to be simple for users, but I don't think restricting choice is really the answer." Lame-o seems to have used the term "bloatware" to describe the number of packages in a given distribution, but I've been using it to mean a _single_ package that is * Sloppily written, and so takes up lots-o-disk space, * Eats up system resources as if it's the only app in existence, * And, consequently, works slower than it should. Have I been leading a life of error? Miark - Original Message - From: "Denis HAVLIK" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux Folks, don't worry about it. Journalists think that it's fancy to cryticise linux this season, so they do. What Henri said counts, and that's: yust my .022 euro... cu Denis On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, abe wrote: :~Now, if you just say yes to everything then you are going to get one :~hell of an install! But my favorite passtime with my linux box for the :~first few months was to sit down and try all those programs. Fire em up :~and see what happens. It was great fun and a good way to get :~comfortable with the new environment too. :~ ... :~ :~That article is just more FUD. -- - Dr. Denis Havlik http://MandrakeForum.com Mandrakesoft ||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --oOO--(_)--OOo- The mailserver is on strike. It wants better working conditions, paid days off and a female connector. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Don't the devoted hackers work on any gui development stuff anymore? On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, john rigby wrote: Disk B: All the Developer stuff - and certainly no GUI needed. Hackers like to get dirty and "change their own oil". :-)
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance to slim things down for the regular user a distressing sign. quote from adrian: where is my shotgun? mandrake comes on 2 CDs with: 1 OS 10 window managers 100+ programs winsux comes on 1 CD with 1 OS bloat? where's the bloat i think someone missed the bloat. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:54:26 AM 1/10/01 http://www.upside.com/Open_Season/3a5b574d60.html -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Just for the record, here's the response I sent to Mr. Volz ; Dear Todd; Interesting article . Was this picaresque novella written to judge the reaction of the general public? Were you attempting to take a survey of Linux enthusiasts, and some bonehead in your marketing department said "Hey let's write something demeaning and shallow, and see what the readers do"? Or, ARE YOU NUTS ???!!! I can't beleive (although you're making it mighty easy) that someone of your apparent stature wouldn't see the benefits and necessity of providing an abundance of applications. First, let's consider the current situation in regards to available software. Typically, it's very expensive, and doesn't always provide what the customer is looking for. If it manages to accomplish this particular feat, chances are that it will be difficult to learn. How many people are totally satisfied with a particular piece of software. If they master it, they usually ending up jumping at the next version hoping it has the improvements that they feel it needs. And so the vicious circle begins. Upgrade after expensive upgrade. But how many more buy it, try it, and fry it? They get fed up and give up. Wouldn't it be great if they could try several and make their own decision. Perhaps they would appreciate certain features of one application, and other features of another. Your article seems to suggest that these choices should be made for the public by someone else, and that the consumer should simply accept what is offered. In other words, having been caught up in the insidious trap deployed by Microsoft, we should now allow history to repeat itself with Linux? How Orwellian of you. Haven't you clued in yet? Linux is all about choice ! It's about having an opportunity to not only personalize the way your desktop looks, it's about choosing the software you want to use without having to pay through the nose for it. I also noticed that you have taken it upon yourself to decide what people do and don't want on their computers. My firm ships out hundreds of computer per week, and my tech support department handles large quantities of phone calls regarding a larger range of questions. The funny thing is, they're almost all about how to select software, and how to personalize their computers. Having been in this business for almost 14 years, I've seen software companies come and go. Remember Delrina ? Global Village? I do. I remember that they expected consumers to pay high price tags for software, and I remember that they didn't give a rat's ass about discontinuing support or revisions to existing software. I remember may others doing the same, and I'm sure that you do as well. Wouldn't it be great if you already had a large selection of software you could pick from? One of the most repetitive accolades we receive from our clients is that we take the time to "Demystify" how computers and software work. The majority of our clients (Corporate and Individual by the way) are surprised and pleased to learn about their IT investments, especially when it's explained in Plain Old English. The terminology is what scares most people, not the necessity to choose from too many programs. They certainly don't have a problem learning, they have a problem understanding "Techno-Babble" It can be as painful as listening to a politician who's trying to tell the truth ! No Sir ! You're way off the mark ! In this day and age, consumers are being treated like idiots. They don't like it one bit, and I don't either. Ever had surgery done? I'll bet you appreciated having the surgeon explain WHY they were going to remove that part of your brain that gives you a conscience, and what was involved, right? Well consumers are exactly the same. They want to know, but they don't want to be treated like morons in the process. Your article strongly suggests that these decisions and choices should be made by the companies who make the products. I find the implication insulting. So would my clients. In the future, please pay more attention to the ramifications of what you say in your articles. What's next Terry? Left handed mice for everyone, and we'll let Henry Ford pick the color of every car ? ( any Color you want,...as long as it's black!) Have a nice day ! Dan LaBine MCSE, MCP. General Manager, Atlantis Computers Ltd. President Maximum L.A.N.'s Ltd. - Original Message - From: "Adrian Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance
Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux
Hello, I just read that story myself and felt he was a bit hard on linux, but I cut this piece out and think he has a pointinregards to the suse pro ver 7 which I have. When I first installed it it installed 3417 packs and used just over 6.5 gig of my hard drive. Far too many apps for me . Linux blows windoze out of the water, and I am having a ball with linux, learning how to move around in bash and installing software and learning how to upgrade kde 1.2x to 2.0.1. Much more fun that plain jane windoze, with only one desk top and so on. "quote" The way I see it, for Linux to become a viable desktop platform, it needs to slim down and streamline its offerings. A Linux truly designed for the desktop should include: An installer as easy to manage as that of Corel Linux Automatic network/Internet configuration Tough, preconfigured security for network/Internet access A conservative roster of applications, including an email client; a Web browser; office tools such as a word processor, a spreadsheet, and presentation apps; an image editor; a media player; an HTML editor; Telnet, FTP, and other network utilities Preconfigured Windows/Mac OS file system and network support A single window manager that integrates the best of existing desktop environments into a pared-down, easily configurable workspace A modicum of accessories such as a calculator and an address book User-friendly network administration tools Corporate users may not need even half of these applications, since IT departments will determine which apps are supported by the company. And many more applications may deserve to be included. But as a basic desktop system, a version of Linux, as outlined above, would prove much more appealing and useful to folks who don't live and breathe Linux. "unquote" Regards Anthony Daniell. - Original Message - From: Adrian Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrakesoft CEO defends Linux quote from the artical: The week before Christmas, CNET News.com editor Todd Volz blasted most of the major commercial distributions, including Mandrakesoft, for shipping bloated product. While most of the bloat comes in the area of developer-oriented features, i.e. mulitple compilers, screen setting controls etc., Voltz viewed the business community's reluctance to slim things down for the regular user a distressing sign. quote from adrian: where is my shotgun? mandrake comes on 2 CDs with: 1 OS 10 window managers 100+ programs winsux comes on 1 CD with 1 OS bloat? where's the bloat i think someone missed the bloat. Adrian Smith 'de telepone dude Telecom Dept. x 7042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:54:26 AM 1/10/01 http://www.upside.com/Open_Season/3a5b574d60.html -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
