Re: Giving and taking criticism
What happened to the good old days, before I got old, and it was just you and me. We knew everything too. On Nov 30, 2011, at 06:12 , Dario Bonazza wrote: > Doug Franklin wrote: > >> On 2011-11-29 13:18, Dario Bonazza wrote: >> >>> (I'm not sure I succeeded in expressing my thought so well, >>> but perhaps you'll get it) >> >> I think you expressed it pretty darned well, Dario. And I completely agree >> with what you say regarding building a "community of the like-minded". >> >> For me, it's mostly a matter of the time required. I often barely have time >> to skim through the list, wielding the delete key like a scythe at reaping. >> If I had more time, I'd both post more and offer more feedback. > > Same here... Joseph McAllister Pentaxian http://gallery.me.com/jomac -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Doug Franklin wrote: On 2011-11-29 13:18, Dario Bonazza wrote: (I'm not sure I succeeded in expressing my thought so well, but perhaps you'll get it) I think you expressed it pretty darned well, Dario. And I completely agree with what you say regarding building a "community of the like-minded". For me, it's mostly a matter of the time required. I often barely have time to skim through the list, wielding the delete key like a scythe at reaping. If I had more time, I'd both post more and offer more feedback. Same here... Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 29, 2011, at 8:37 AM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: Rick Womer >> Do I want to know what IFQ stands for? > > Image for Qritique? I'd go with RFC, Request For Critique just because I like to confuse people by repurposing TLAs. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 29/11/2011 9:12 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: Hey - Ashley reads the list with me! Watch your mouth! I'm not shooting in the studio all that much any more. I'm thinking of the kittens. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 2011-11-29 1:07, Rob Studdert wrote: A FB community page or organisation page (I co-manage one) can have a number of admins which negates that need for handovers etc. Nice. I've never done that (FB community/organization page) so I wasn't aware. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 2011-11-29 13:18, Dario Bonazza wrote: (I'm not sure I succeeded in expressing my thought so well, but perhaps you'll get it) I think you expressed it pretty darned well, Dario. And I completely agree with what you say regarding building a "community of the like-minded". For me, it's mostly a matter of the time required. I often barely have time to skim through the list, wielding the delete key like a scythe at reaping. If I had more time, I'd both post more and offer more feedback. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I imagine there are those who comment largely to allay the poster's possibly experiencing self doubt as a result of the image receiving few if any responses. They may feel innocuous to be preferable to dismissal. Jack - Original Message - From: Daniel J. Matyola To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism I don't know, Ann. It seems to me that the comments have been rather polite and non-critical of late. Six or nine months ago, I received some detailed and pointed constructive criticisms on a number of images, but that hasn't been the case for the last few months. As a result, I find myself posting fewer images now, because I now longer anticipate being told what are the weaknesses of the posted images. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > good idea... which it seems has been what we have been doing right along - > at least recently -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
From: "Daniel J. Matyola" So, can we agree that on a PESO or GESO or PUG entry or whatever, if the poster invites criticism, those who have an opinion of any sort are free to express it, and to give positive or negative feedback, as long as the comments are directed to the merits or failings of the image, and not personal insults to the poster? Pretty much sums up what I expect if/when I post a PESO. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Deal! Jack - Original Message - From: Ann Sanfedele To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On 11/29/2011 12:41, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: > So, can we agree that on a PESO or GESO or PUG entry or whatever, if > the poster invites criticism, those who have an opinion of any sort > are free to express it, and to give positive or negative feedback, as > long as the comments are directed to the merits or failings of the > image, and not personal insults to the poster? > > Dan Matyola > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola > > > Gee, Dan , you're no fun at all but seriously folks - yeah , good idea... which it seems has been what we have been doing right along - at least recently ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/29/2011 10:49 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: I don't know, Ann. It seems to me that the comments have been rather polite and non-critical of late. Six or nine months ago, I received some detailed and pointed constructive criticisms on a number of images, but that hasn't been the case for the last few months. As a result, I find myself posting fewer images now, because I now longer anticipate being told what are the weaknesses of the posted images. Either that, or the criticisms were so helpful that your current work has few, if any weaknesses. It seems that I haven't been getting a lot of feed back on the photos that I post lately, and took that as a sign that I post to many, so I've been trying to wait until the end of the month and just posting a list to my monthly "best of", which is entirely counterproductive to getting useful feedback, but is less tedious to the list. I think that one thing that might help the quality, and usefulness of feedback on this list is if people were able to improve their skill at giving and getting feedback on their photos. We should talk about that some time. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I’ve been out of the loop lately: not even able to lurk. Larry, the brain dump is a very good start. Your "rules" actually apply to a lot of life in general. There are a lot of good comments in this thread. The only reason I post photos is to get feedback from a group of people who collectively (and individually) have more photographic knowledge than I and I respect that knowledge. Critiques are good. I don’t always get to look at everyone’s postings or comment on photos, because of highly fluctuating work schedules. Rick Womer’s comment says a lot, “If it's "an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and clichéd subject" I'd like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too.” I have been out of photography for so long I might not know that today it’s a clichéd subject. I once worked for an editor who always had a red pencil in his hand. I always knew as I turned in my work the first draft was going to get cut to ribbons, but I learned more from that man than any one else I've ever known. The criticism was strong but never personal and was always focused on the work. I also learned a lot from my Grandmother, but that’s another story about criticism. In my current work I’ve seen a few people crushed by criticism, and that’s unfortunate, but a fact of the business world. It’s even more unfortunate to see aspiring photographers crushed. I think the PDML could use a little more honest photo criticism, and I like reading people’s comments about others submissions for my own learning. k -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I don't know, Ann. It seems to me that the comments have been rather polite and non-critical of late. Six or nine months ago, I received some detailed and pointed constructive criticisms on a number of images, but that hasn't been the case for the last few months. As a result, I find myself posting fewer images now, because I now longer anticipate being told what are the weaknesses of the posted images. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > good idea... which it seems has been what we have been doing right along - > at least recently -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: > So, can we agree that on a PESO or GESO or PUG entry or whatever, if > the poster invites criticism, those who have an opinion of any sort > are free to express it, and to give positive or negative feedback, as > long as the comments are directed to the merits or failings of the > image, and not personal insults to the poster? I'd say yes to that. I appreciate any and all comments. Dave > > Dan Matyola > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola > > > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: >> On Nov 25, 2011, at 18:06, William Robb wrote: >>> I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph >>> on it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. >>> And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it >>> be a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a >>> kitten gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning >>> image, etc) or no comment at all. >>> >> >> (which explains the reason for mostly silence when I post images!) >> >> I suspected as much. I don't know if that's a :-) or :-( >> >>> Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one >>> likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor >>> rendering of a banal and cliched subject. >> >> Sad but true. >> >> -Charles >> >> -- >> Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com >> Minneapolis, MN >> http://charles.robinsontwins.org >> http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/29/2011 12:41, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: So, can we agree that on a PESO or GESO or PUG entry or whatever, if the poster invites criticism, those who have an opinion of any sort are free to express it, and to give positive or negative feedback, as long as the comments are directed to the merits or failings of the image, and not personal insults to the poster? Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola Gee, Dan , you're no fun at all but seriously folks - yeah , good idea... which it seems has been what we have been doing right along - at least recently ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Daniel J. Matyola wrote: So, can we agree that on a PESO or GESO or PUG entry or whatever, if the poster invites criticism, those who have an opinion of any sort are free to express it, and to give positive or negative feedback, as long as the comments are directed to the merits or failings of the image, and not personal insults to the poster? I fully subscribe to that. Just to add some contribution to this thread: When I (seldom) post some pics here, I always ask for comments and I am open to anything (good or bad). Usually, I get very few feedbacks and that probably prevents me from being a bit more active with PESO's and such here. I have the strong feeling that the more active folks here are also those more willing to comment and who get in return more comments on their pictures, in sort of a self-growing mutual exchange among people so inclined. (I'm not sure I succeeded in expressing my thought so well, but perhaps you'll get it) Perhaps those (like me) having little time to spend online (let's say 80% here on PDML and 20% on FB, and that's all) look far less interesting to the community, but I can understand that Cheers, Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
So, can we agree that on a PESO or GESO or PUG entry or whatever, if the poster invites criticism, those who have an opinion of any sort are free to express it, and to give positive or negative feedback, as long as the comments are directed to the merits or failings of the image, and not personal insults to the poster? Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: > On Nov 25, 2011, at 18:06, William Robb wrote: >> I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph on >> it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. >> And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it be >> a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a kitten >> gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning image, etc) >> or no comment at all. >> > > (which explains the reason for mostly silence when I post images!) > > I suspected as much. I don't know if that's a :-) or :-( > >> Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one >> likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor >> rendering of a banal and cliched subject. > > Sad but true. > > -Charles > > -- > Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com > Minneapolis, MN > http://charles.robinsontwins.org > http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 25, 2011, at 18:06, William Robb wrote: > I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph on > it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. > And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it be > a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a kitten > gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning image, etc) or > no comment at all. > (which explains the reason for mostly silence when I post images!) I suspected as much. I don't know if that's a :-) or :-( > Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one likes > to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a > banal and cliched subject. Sad but true. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
From: Rick Womer Do I want to know what IFQ stands for? Image for Qritique? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Hey - Ashley reads the list with me! Watch your mouth! ann On 11/29/2011 03:20, Bob W wrote: [...] Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? -- William Robb I think I read somewhere that you don't have to cover them in magnesium to make them flash anymore, you can get some sort of electronic thing. Probably not as effective, but might be worth investigating, and you can keep them now for squeegeeing your wet film. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Giving and taking criticism
SNAFU! -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER & DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Paul Stenquist Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:38 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On Nov 29, 2011, at 6:28 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Bob W wrote: > >>> Thus it starts. The proliferation of alphabet acronyms that leads >>> to complete communication breakdown. >>> >> PAA => CCB > > OMG! > > WTF? > -- > Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia > www.robertstech.com > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 29, 2011, at 6:28 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Bob W wrote: > >>> Thus it starts. The proliferation of alphabet acronyms that leads to >>> complete communication breakdown. >>> >> PAA => CCB > > OMG! > > WTF? > -- > Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia > www.robertstech.com > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Bob W wrote: >> Thus it starts. The proliferation of alphabet acronyms that leads to >> complete communication breakdown. >> >PAA => CCB OMG! -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Giving and taking criticism
[...] > > Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? > > -- > > William Robb > I think I read somewhere that you don't have to cover them in magnesium to make them flash anymore, you can get some sort of electronic thing. Probably not as effective, but might be worth investigating, and you can keep them now for squeegeeing your wet film. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Giving and taking criticism
PAA => CCB > > Thus it starts. The proliferation of alphabet acronyms that leads to > complete communication breakdown. > > On 11/28/2011 8:18 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: > > I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs > > (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images > > submitted for discussion and critiques. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 27 November 2011 13:45, Doug "Lefty" Franklin wrote: > I think it could be a good thing. However, it has the same governance > issues as the PUG and the PDML: someone has to be "first point of contact" > and "owner" at any point it time. And some sort of transition will be > required when someone wants to retire from that "owner" role. The folks been > able to handle those issues for the PDML, and I'd think they'd be able to > handle it for a Facebook PUG page, too. A FB community page or organisation page (I co-manage one) can have a number of admins which negates that need for handovers etc. Cheers, -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
We have this discussion on a semi-regular basis, and I recall that several years ago we decided to do exactly that, which is why I always put, "comments always welcome," on my PESOs (am I the only one who still does this?). Personally I don't understand why anyone would want to post on a forum such as this if one doesn't want comment and critique, but that's just me. Yeah, you gotta take the good with the bad, but how else are you gonna learn? Of course personal attacks and insults aren't to be tolerated but they are rare and tend to be well policed by the list at large. I don't think that more acronyms or initialisms will do much more than clutter our already busy lives. Cheers, frank --- Original Message --- From: Brian Walters Sent: November 28, 2011 11/28/11 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On Monday, November 28, 2011 8:18 PM, "Daniel J. Matyola" wrote: > I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs > (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFiQ: Images > submitted for discussion and critiques. > By all means give that a try but, I think a statement in a PESO noting that "comments and suggestions are welcome" (or similar), should be enough. I'm can't understand why a statement like that shouldn't be taken at face value. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/28/2011 22:20, Rick Womer wrote: Do I want to know what IFQ stands for? Rick Rick - see my post :-) Great minds - or, perhaps not so great... ann http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: Daniel J. Matyola To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images submitted for discussion and critiques. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM, William Robb wrote: On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the opposite effect. Here's a metaphor. As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you want. The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to photography. A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered positive feedback. And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is essentially the same picture. Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the same picture, I know of what I speak. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the leash). So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of the positive motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes out and takes another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of canvas, or another sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are abused by photographers on a daily basis. And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I F Q ? dangerous acronym, that Dan! lol ann On 11/28/2011 21:54, Brian Walters wrote: On Monday, November 28, 2011 8:18 PM, "Daniel J. Matyola" wrote: I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images submitted for discussion and critiques. By all means give that a try but, I think a statement in a PESO noting that "comments and suggestions are welcome" (or similar), should be enough. I'm can't understand why a statement like that shouldn't be taken at face value. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Hum, probably not. On 11/28/2011 10:20 PM, Rick Womer wrote: Do I want to know what IFQ stands for? Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: Daniel J. Matyola To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images submitted for discussion and critiques. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM, William Robb wrote: On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the opposite effect. Here's a metaphor. As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you want. The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to photography. A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered positive feedback. And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is essentially the same picture. Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the same picture, I know of what I speak. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the leash). So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of the positive motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes out and takes another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of canvas, or another sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are abused by photographers on a daily basis. And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Thus it starts. The proliferation of alphabet acronyms that leads to complete communication breakdown. On 11/28/2011 8:18 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images submitted for discussion and critiques. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM, William Robb wrote: On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the opposite effect. Here's a metaphor. As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you want. The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to photography. A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered positive feedback. And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is essentially the same picture. Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the same picture, I know of what I speak. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the leash). So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of the positive motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes out and takes another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of canvas, or another sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are abused by photographers on a daily basis. And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
> >> 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the >> positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued >> excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with >> practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. > > Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the > opposite effect. > Here's a metaphor. > As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog > trainer, one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This > training technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog > does something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do > what you want. > The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog > whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend > to start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the > undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. > > So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it > to photography. > A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit > on a decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive > comments, comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of > the image. > So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what > garnered positive feedback. > And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is > essentially the same picture. > Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially > the same picture, I know of what I speak. > I understand exactly what you're saying, but have problems with the metaphor (you knew I would). First off, you're talking about dogs and I believe most people are capable of being more intelligent than dogs. Secondly you said you take pride in your ability to train dogs, and therein lies a big difference, You have an interest, often a vested interest in dog training. I and many others here have no vested interested in 'training' or teaching people photography. We share a common interest yes, and sometimes offer either praise or helpful negative feedback - but I'm not interested in providing negative feedback to numerous (many) posters who display an image, in much the same way and for the same reason I don't give to every charity that asks me to 'do my fair share'. I either have no interest or no time to provide feedback to very many posters simply because they posted an image (and as mentioned before, many posters are not really seeking feedback regarding the merits of the image itself). There's also some genres I have no interest in, or have little to no experience with, and therefore refrain from commenting. >> 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest >> on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look >> or respond. > > But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative > feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the > leash). So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of > the positive motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes > out and takes another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of > canvas, or another sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are > abused by photographers on a daily basis. > And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. > I agree with the first statement, but I think that's where human and dogs differ. If I show a picture to 10 people and 9 out of 10 don't respond, I figure either they didn't like it or it didn't interest them enough to comment. Either way, I figure the image was not that great (i.e. failure), and therefore I learn to be more critical of my own images I present. Basically it gets down to the fact that it's not my job to be a photography teacher or critic and therefore I'm not. I sometimes give negative feedback on a very good image with lots of potential. > Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? My hero. :-) Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Do I want to know what IFQ stands for? Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: Daniel J. Matyola To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images submitted for discussion and critiques. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM, William Robb wrote: > On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: >> > >> 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the >> positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued >> excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with >> practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. > > Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the > opposite effect. > Here's a metaphor. > As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, > one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training > technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does > something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you > want. > The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog > whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to > start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the > undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. > > So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to > photography. > A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a > decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, > comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. > So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered > positive feedback. > And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is > essentially the same picture. > Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the > same picture, I know of what I speak. > >> 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest >> on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look >> or respond. > > But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative > feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the leash). > So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of the positive > motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes out and takes > another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of canvas, or another > sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are abused by > photographers on a daily basis. > And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. > > Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? > > -- > > William Robb > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 2011-11-28 21:54, Brian Walters wrote: By all means give that a try but, I think a statement in a PESO noting that "comments and suggestions are welcome" (or similar), should be enough. I'm can't understand why a statement like that shouldn't be taken at face value. I agree, but with a caveat: Don't put a statement like that on your posting if you're not prepared to deal with the results. The results could include a response like the one mentioned about fifty or a hundred messages ago, a response like "you should be ashamed to post such dreck" (paraphrasing). Personally, I think that "critique" was totally out of line, but it could happen again, so be prepared. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM, William Robb wrote: > On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: >> > >> 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the >> positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued >> excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with >> practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. > > Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the > opposite effect. > Here's a metaphor. > As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, > one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training > technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does > something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you > want. > The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog > whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to > start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the > undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. > > So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to > photography. > A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a > decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, > comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. > So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered > positive feedback. > And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is > essentially the same picture. > Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the > same picture, I know of what I speak. Sounds like operant conditioning is the way to go. Maybe the pdml can pioneer a Skinner Box for photographers...? :) -c -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Monday, November 28, 2011 8:18 PM, "Daniel J. Matyola" wrote: > I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs > (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images > submitted for discussion and critiques. > By all means give that a try but, I think a statement in a PESO noting that "comments and suggestions are welcome" (or similar), should be enough. I'm can't understand why a statement like that shouldn't be taken at face value. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I still say that we should have two types of submissions: PESOs (pictures posted for enjoyment and sharing) and IFQ: Images submitted for discussion and critiques. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM, William Robb wrote: > On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: >> > >> 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the >> positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued >> excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with >> practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. > > Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the > opposite effect. > Here's a metaphor. > As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, > one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training > technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does > something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you > want. > The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog > whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to > start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the > undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. > > So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to > photography. > A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a > decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, > comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. > So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered > positive feedback. > And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is > essentially the same picture. > Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the > same picture, I know of what I speak. > >> 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest >> on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look >> or respond. > > But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative > feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the leash). > So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of the positive > motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes out and takes > another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of canvas, or another > sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are abused by > photographers on a daily basis. > And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. > > Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? > > -- > > William Robb > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 28/11/2011 2:04 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: Stop being agreeable, but then I guess you can't help it, you're Canadian. I'll try to make up for Frank's agree-ability. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 28/11/2011 12:21 PM, Tom C wrote: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. Well, yes and no. Only giving positive feedback can have exactly the opposite effect. Here's a metaphor. As you know, I take pride in my abilities to train dogs. As a dog trainer, one of the tools I use is called "positive reinforcement". This training technique (and it is quite successful) used praise when the dog does something tight, and no feedback at all when the dog doesn't do what you want. The idea is that by ignoring undesirable behaviour and praising the dog whenever it comes up with a way to please the owner, the dog will tend to start doing that which gives it feedback, and will cease doing the undesirable stuff which gives it nothing at all. So, lets take what we have learned about simple psychology and apply it to photography. A person goes out and shoots a subject, any subject, and manages to hit on a decent picture. They post it to the internet and get back positive comments, comments that may be semi specific in relation to aspects of the image. So, the person starts looking for those aspects, since this is what garnered positive feedback. And next thing you know, they have a whole body of work of what is essentially the same picture. Take it from someone who has a whole body of work that is essentially the same picture, I know of what I speak. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. But it isn't negative feedback, it's just no feedback at all (negative feedback would be, metaphorically speaking, a good solid jerk on the leash). So, your "negative feedback" becomes meaningless in the face of the positive motivation that comes from the gushers, and the person goes out and takes another picture of a pretty girl in front of a hunk of canvas, or another sunset, or another of the many, many cliches that are abused by photographers on a daily basis. And life goes on, and photography gets dumbed down a little bit more. Did you know that every time I do a studio shoot a kitten dies? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/28/2011 3:34 PM, Larry Colen wrote: On Nov 28, 2011, at 12:33 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: We're a very polite people (with the exception of Bill Robb). ;-) (just kidding, Bill) He's not a person? I don't know, you should ask his wife. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 28, 2011, at 12:33 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > We're a very polite people (with the exception of Bill Robb). > > ;-) > > (just kidding, Bill) He's not a person? > -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
We're a very polite people (with the exception of Bill Robb). ;-) (just kidding, Bill) cheers, frank --- Original Message --- From: "P. J. Alling" Sent: November 28, 2011 11/28/11 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism Stop being agreeable, but then I guess you can't help it, you're Canadian. On 11/28/2011 2:00 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > I agree with Ann. > > Cheers, > frank > > --- Original Message --- > > From: Ann Sanfedele > Sent: November 28, 2011 11/28/11 > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism > > Well put, Tom.. > Nice summing up of the whole bit > > ann > > On 11/28/2011 13:21, Tom C wrote: >> Been out and about at Bryce and Zion National Parks over the weekend. >> I may have one or two shots to display. :-) >> >> Here's my thoughts on this semi-annual topic: >> >> 1. If a person posts a picture they're inviting a response. Usually >> they're expecting a positive response I believe, otherwise they likely >> wouldn't have posted it. >> 2. Having invited a response a poster must be prepared for a response >> they did not expect, i.e., negative feedback or tips for improvement. >> 3. There's nothing wrong with posting an image and getting an "ego >> massage" out of it, especially if it's a praiseworthy image. We all >> like to feel good about our photography. >> >> That being said: >> >> 4. Many images are offered for viewing that were intended more as a >> show& tell and sharing, a form of communication as opposed to an >> example of photographic craft. >> 5. It seems kudos are often given for these images and they often >> receive the same adulation as images that meet a higher standard. >> That's unfortunate because it, in essence lumps great shots and >> otherwise into the same bucket. It's akin to pooling tips for >> waiters/waitresses. Excellent service and poor service are rewarded >> equally. That can have the tendency to make some with mediocre shots >> believe they have a great image and it tends to have a diluting effect >> on praise given to worthy images, especially if the same person is >> giving the feedback. >> 6. For criticism and critique to have validity one must take into >> account the credentials of the one giving feedback, be it here, or any >> of the numerous photo sharing sites. But credentials alone is not the >> end all, because personal subjectivity always enters in. I've found on >> other sites, that it appears some individuals have the tendency to >> downgrade others images as a means to inflate their own egos. >> Likewise, a beginner in photography can easily get excited about an >> image that has little merit - or not realizing how little they know, >> give negative feedback and advice. >> 7. A negative critique that attacks the photographer as opposed to the >> photograph serves no use. It's that kind of negative attack I've seen >> from time to time on the list, that I find onerous whether it occurs >> to myself or someone else. It's pointless, rude, and serves no purpose >> other than to elevate the one giving the critique - in their own mind. >> >> Personally: >> >> 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the >> positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued >> excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with >> practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. >> 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest >> on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look >> or respond. >> >> Tom C. >> -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Stop being agreeable, but then I guess you can't help it, you're Canadian. On 11/28/2011 2:00 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with Ann. Cheers, frank --- Original Message --- From: Ann Sanfedele Sent: November 28, 2011 11/28/11 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism Well put, Tom.. Nice summing up of the whole bit ann On 11/28/2011 13:21, Tom C wrote: Been out and about at Bryce and Zion National Parks over the weekend. I may have one or two shots to display. :-) Here's my thoughts on this semi-annual topic: 1. If a person posts a picture they're inviting a response. Usually they're expecting a positive response I believe, otherwise they likely wouldn't have posted it. 2. Having invited a response a poster must be prepared for a response they did not expect, i.e., negative feedback or tips for improvement. 3. There's nothing wrong with posting an image and getting an "ego massage" out of it, especially if it's a praiseworthy image. We all like to feel good about our photography. That being said: 4. Many images are offered for viewing that were intended more as a show& tell and sharing, a form of communication as opposed to an example of photographic craft. 5. It seems kudos are often given for these images and they often receive the same adulation as images that meet a higher standard. That's unfortunate because it, in essence lumps great shots and otherwise into the same bucket. It's akin to pooling tips for waiters/waitresses. Excellent service and poor service are rewarded equally. That can have the tendency to make some with mediocre shots believe they have a great image and it tends to have a diluting effect on praise given to worthy images, especially if the same person is giving the feedback. 6. For criticism and critique to have validity one must take into account the credentials of the one giving feedback, be it here, or any of the numerous photo sharing sites. But credentials alone is not the end all, because personal subjectivity always enters in. I've found on other sites, that it appears some individuals have the tendency to downgrade others images as a means to inflate their own egos. Likewise, a beginner in photography can easily get excited about an image that has little merit - or not realizing how little they know, give negative feedback and advice. 7. A negative critique that attacks the photographer as opposed to the photograph serves no use. It's that kind of negative attack I've seen from time to time on the list, that I find onerous whether it occurs to myself or someone else. It's pointless, rude, and serves no purpose other than to elevate the one giving the critique - in their own mind. Personally: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. Tom C. -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I agree with Ann. Cheers, frank --- Original Message --- From: Ann Sanfedele Sent: November 28, 2011 11/28/11 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism Well put, Tom.. Nice summing up of the whole bit ann On 11/28/2011 13:21, Tom C wrote: > Been out and about at Bryce and Zion National Parks over the weekend. > I may have one or two shots to display. :-) > > Here's my thoughts on this semi-annual topic: > > 1. If a person posts a picture they're inviting a response. Usually > they're expecting a positive response I believe, otherwise they likely > wouldn't have posted it. > 2. Having invited a response a poster must be prepared for a response > they did not expect, i.e., negative feedback or tips for improvement. > 3. There's nothing wrong with posting an image and getting an "ego > massage" out of it, especially if it's a praiseworthy image. We all > like to feel good about our photography. > > That being said: > > 4. Many images are offered for viewing that were intended more as a > show& tell and sharing, a form of communication as opposed to an > example of photographic craft. > 5. It seems kudos are often given for these images and they often > receive the same adulation as images that meet a higher standard. > That's unfortunate because it, in essence lumps great shots and > otherwise into the same bucket. It's akin to pooling tips for > waiters/waitresses. Excellent service and poor service are rewarded > equally. That can have the tendency to make some with mediocre shots > believe they have a great image and it tends to have a diluting effect > on praise given to worthy images, especially if the same person is > giving the feedback. > 6. For criticism and critique to have validity one must take into > account the credentials of the one giving feedback, be it here, or any > of the numerous photo sharing sites. But credentials alone is not the > end all, because personal subjectivity always enters in. I've found on > other sites, that it appears some individuals have the tendency to > downgrade others images as a means to inflate their own egos. > Likewise, a beginner in photography can easily get excited about an > image that has little merit - or not realizing how little they know, > give negative feedback and advice. > 7. A negative critique that attacks the photographer as opposed to the > photograph serves no use. It's that kind of negative attack I've seen > from time to time on the list, that I find onerous whether it occurs > to myself or someone else. It's pointless, rude, and serves no purpose > other than to elevate the one giving the critique - in their own mind. > > Personally: > > 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the > positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued > excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with > practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. > 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest > on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look > or respond. > > Tom C. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Well put, Tom.. Nice summing up of the whole bit ann On 11/28/2011 13:21, Tom C wrote: Been out and about at Bryce and Zion National Parks over the weekend. I may have one or two shots to display. :-) Here's my thoughts on this semi-annual topic: 1. If a person posts a picture they're inviting a response. Usually they're expecting a positive response I believe, otherwise they likely wouldn't have posted it. 2. Having invited a response a poster must be prepared for a response they did not expect, i.e., negative feedback or tips for improvement. 3. There's nothing wrong with posting an image and getting an "ego massage" out of it, especially if it's a praiseworthy image. We all like to feel good about our photography. That being said: 4. Many images are offered for viewing that were intended more as a show& tell and sharing, a form of communication as opposed to an example of photographic craft. 5. It seems kudos are often given for these images and they often receive the same adulation as images that meet a higher standard. That's unfortunate because it, in essence lumps great shots and otherwise into the same bucket. It's akin to pooling tips for waiters/waitresses. Excellent service and poor service are rewarded equally. That can have the tendency to make some with mediocre shots believe they have a great image and it tends to have a diluting effect on praise given to worthy images, especially if the same person is giving the feedback. 6. For criticism and critique to have validity one must take into account the credentials of the one giving feedback, be it here, or any of the numerous photo sharing sites. But credentials alone is not the end all, because personal subjectivity always enters in. I've found on other sites, that it appears some individuals have the tendency to downgrade others images as a means to inflate their own egos. Likewise, a beginner in photography can easily get excited about an image that has little merit - or not realizing how little they know, give negative feedback and advice. 7. A negative critique that attacks the photographer as opposed to the photograph serves no use. It's that kind of negative attack I've seen from time to time on the list, that I find onerous whether it occurs to myself or someone else. It's pointless, rude, and serves no purpose other than to elevate the one giving the critique - in their own mind. Personally: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Been out and about at Bryce and Zion National Parks over the weekend. I may have one or two shots to display. :-) Here's my thoughts on this semi-annual topic: 1. If a person posts a picture they're inviting a response. Usually they're expecting a positive response I believe, otherwise they likely wouldn't have posted it. 2. Having invited a response a poster must be prepared for a response they did not expect, i.e., negative feedback or tips for improvement. 3. There's nothing wrong with posting an image and getting an "ego massage" out of it, especially if it's a praiseworthy image. We all like to feel good about our photography. That being said: 4. Many images are offered for viewing that were intended more as a show & tell and sharing, a form of communication as opposed to an example of photographic craft. 5. It seems kudos are often given for these images and they often receive the same adulation as images that meet a higher standard. That's unfortunate because it, in essence lumps great shots and otherwise into the same bucket. It's akin to pooling tips for waiters/waitresses. Excellent service and poor service are rewarded equally. That can have the tendency to make some with mediocre shots believe they have a great image and it tends to have a diluting effect on praise given to worthy images, especially if the same person is giving the feedback. 6. For criticism and critique to have validity one must take into account the credentials of the one giving feedback, be it here, or any of the numerous photo sharing sites. But credentials alone is not the end all, because personal subjectivity always enters in. I've found on other sites, that it appears some individuals have the tendency to downgrade others images as a means to inflate their own egos. Likewise, a beginner in photography can easily get excited about an image that has little merit - or not realizing how little they know, give negative feedback and advice. 7. A negative critique that attacks the photographer as opposed to the photograph serves no use. It's that kind of negative attack I've seen from time to time on the list, that I find onerous whether it occurs to myself or someone else. It's pointless, rude, and serves no purpose other than to elevate the one giving the critique - in their own mind. Personally: 7. I generally give only positive feedback and feel that praising the positive is the best way of promoting improvement and continued excellence. The photographer can learn the basics from a book and with practice, so I feel no need to give instruction. 8. Take a 'no comment' as either negative feedback or lack of interest on my part. If not that, then it means I was simply too busy too look or respond. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I presume you mean re Facebook, not expatritism to Canada :-) ann On 11/27/2011 13:43, Jack Davis wrote: I'd as soon experience bedbug infestation. Jack From: Ann Sanfedele To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On 11/27/2011 10:58, David J Brooks wrote: On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: In terms of exposure (no pun) for the PUG a bunch of us just liking it and sharing the link it would possibly increase visitation without having to disenfranchise the anti-facebook population on the list, eh? When did you become Canadian, eh.,:-) I've thought about it a lot from time to time I see no problem with a Facebook page for the PUG. I'd volunteer to do it, if i knew what it was i was doing.LOL Dave ann UM as I said better not... I'm a definite no in this idea - although I've become less of a facebook disliker than I was once. ann On 11/27/2011 07:12, Mark Roberts wrote: "P. J. Alling" wrote: I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to the PDML and post to the PUG. Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would filter out the undesirables ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:37 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote: > mike wilson wrote: > > >On 27/11/2011 03:34, Christine Aguila wrote: > >> That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine > > > >As I understand it PUG is for list members, actively contributing or > >not. Why would we want to promote it? > > The idea would be to promote The List. More people might be likely to > take an interest in the PDML if they could see what kind of cool > photography is being done by members and also see a venue where they > might show off their own photographs. We can always use some new blood > around here. > > Since I already have a Facebook page for the PDML Photo Annual, > perhaps I could just post an announcement there once a month when the > PUG appears. I think that would be useful. I'm pretty much Facebook neutral as far as the PUG is concerned and I don't have a problem with a PUG Facebook page as long as it's not me maintaining it I signed up to Facebook when a family member set up a page for my extended family to keep in touch, but it's become a venue for trivial "I did this today' banter, so I never go there. Life is too short. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
mike wilson wrote: >On 27/11/2011 03:34, Christine Aguila wrote: >> That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine > >As I understand it PUG is for list members, actively contributing or >not. Why would we want to promote it? The idea would be to promote The List. More people might be likely to take an interest in the PDML if they could see what kind of cool photography is being done by members and also see a venue where they might show off their own photographs. We can always use some new blood around here. Since I already have a Facebook page for the PDML Photo Annual, perhaps I could just post an announcement there once a month when the PUG appears. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
From: Christine Aguila That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Christine Aguila wrote: I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. I don't do Facebook. As long as it's not the PUG moving to Facebook, I'm neutral to the idea. But if you gotta' have Facebook to see the PUG that's a bad idea. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 27/11/2011 03:34, Christine Aguila wrote: That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine As I understand it PUG is for list members, actively contributing or not. Why would we want to promote it? On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Christine Aguila wrote: I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. -- No fixed Adobe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I'd as soon experience bedbug infestation. Jack From: Ann Sanfedele To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On 11/27/2011 10:58, David J Brooks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: >> In terms of exposure (no pun) for the PUG a bunch of us just liking it and >> sharing the link it would possibly increase visitation without having to >> disenfranchise the anti-facebook population on the list, eh? > > When did you become Canadian, eh.,:-) I've thought about it a lot from time to time > > I see no problem with a Facebook page for the PUG. I'd volunteer to do > it, if i knew what it was i was doing.LOL > > Dave >> >> ann >> UM as I said better not... I'm a definite no in this idea - although I've become less of a facebook disliker than I was once. ann >> On 11/27/2011 07:12, Mark Roberts wrote: >>> >>> "P. J. Alling" wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot >>>> uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to >>>> the PDML and post to the PUG. >>> >>> Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG >>> wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones >>> "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would >>> filter out the undesirables ;-) >>> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 2011-11-26 19:00, Brian Walters wrote: Well, I suppose it's a matter of available time. For me, it's hugely a matter of available time. As Paul mentioned, if I tried to comment on every posted photo or gallery, I'd never have time for anything else. And a constructive "near miss" message is a very time consuming to produce, if done right (as compared to "great shot!" ;-) ). -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 2011-11-25 19:15, Tim Bray wrote: I think it’s a little more nuanced than that. If I think a PESO is worthless, I say nothing. If I think it’s great, I’ll say so and if I can, add a word or two about why. If i think a picture is worthwhile and could be improved by cropping or color adjustments or whatever, I’ll say that too. I was taught to give praise in public but save harsher words for private. On those rare occasions I comment on a posted photo, I stick with that principle and use direct email for the harsher words rather than posting them publicly to the list. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I am far from a FaceBook fan, but I think a page for the PDML is a great idea, if someone is willing and able to set it up and maintain it. If we attract a few idiots who are not our type of idiots, a few days on the list will drive those folk away. We are a unique and idiosyncratic bunch, and those that don't appreciate our twisted outlook and bizarre sense of humor will soon run away, screaming all the way back to normal life. Dan Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Bran Everseeking wrote: > On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:29:20 -0500 > Mark Roberts wrote: > >> As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up >> a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. > > I am cheating here having read some dissent then coming back to this > point. > > Promoting the PUG could be done without a Page though its not a > bad idea to attract some fresh blood. Adding links to the pug and pdml > to individual FB and other social media pages could be quite useful > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:29:20 -0500 Mark Roberts wrote: > As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up > a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. I am cheating here having read some dissent then coming back to this point. Promoting the PUG could be done without a Page though its not a bad idea to attract some fresh blood. Adding links to the pug and pdml to individual FB and other social media pages could be quite useful -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 22:17:49 -0500 "P. J. Alling" wrote: > I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot > uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe > to the PDML and post to the PUG. MARK! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:06:50 -0600 William Robb wrote: > Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no > one likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, > poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject. sad true and entirely useless to all concerned. on the other hand so many viewers like clichés and the boring images that the are used to. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 27, 2011, at 11:04 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > > > On 11/27/2011 10:58, David J Brooks wrote: >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: >>> In terms of exposure (no pun) for the PUG a bunch of us just liking it and >>> sharing the link it would possibly increase visitation without having to >>> disenfranchise the anti-facebook population on the list, eh? >> >> When did you become Canadian, eh.,:-) > I've thought about it a lot from time to time > >> > I see no problem with a Facebook page for the PUG. I'd volunteer to do >> it, if i knew what it was i was doing.LOL >> >> Dave >>> >>> ann >>> > UM as I said better not... > > I'm a definite no in this idea - although I've become less of a facebook > disliker than I was once. > > ann > > I don't see any real downside to a facebook page for the PUG , other than it might grow the list excessively. But based on my experience with a page I use to promote my business, I suspect it would provide some dividends but no sea change. It's easy to maintain such a page by the way. And if an objectionable post appears, it can be deleted by the page owner. (So far I've experienced no problems but have generated some new business.) If there's anything nefarious about a facebook promo page, I have yet to discover it. Paul > >>> On 11/27/2011 07:12, Mark Roberts wrote: "P. J. Alling"wrote: > I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot > uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to > the PDML and post to the PUG. Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would filter out the undesirables ;-) >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> >> >> >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/27/2011 10:58, David J Brooks wrote: On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: In terms of exposure (no pun) for the PUG a bunch of us just liking it and sharing the link it would possibly increase visitation without having to disenfranchise the anti-facebook population on the list, eh? When did you become Canadian, eh.,:-) I've thought about it a lot from time to time > I see no problem with a Facebook page for the PUG. I'd volunteer to do it, if i knew what it was i was doing.LOL Dave ann UM as I said better not... I'm a definite no in this idea - although I've become less of a facebook disliker than I was once. ann On 11/27/2011 07:12, Mark Roberts wrote: "P. J. Alling"wrote: I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to the PDML and post to the PUG. Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would filter out the undesirables ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > In terms of exposure (no pun) for the PUG a bunch of us just liking it and > sharing the link it would possibly increase visitation without having to > disenfranchise the anti-facebook population on the list, eh? When did you become Canadian, eh.,:-) I see no problem with a Facebook page for the PUG. I'd volunteer to do it, if i knew what it was i was doing.LOL Dave > > ann > > On 11/27/2011 07:12, Mark Roberts wrote: >> >> "P. J. Alling" wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot >>> uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to >>> the PDML and post to the PUG. >> >> Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG >> wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones >> "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would >> filter out the undesirables ;-) >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
In terms of exposure (no pun) for the PUG a bunch of us just liking it and sharing the link it would possibly increase visitation without having to disenfranchise the anti-facebook population on the list, eh? ann On 11/27/2011 07:12, Mark Roberts wrote: "P. J. Alling" wrote: I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to the PDML and post to the PUG. Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would filter out the undesirables ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
"P. J. Alling" wrote: >I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot >uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to >the PDML and post to the PUG. Well the useful thing about Fcebook is that people who "like" the PUG wouldn't automatically be eligible to participate. Only the ones "special" enough to join the List would qualify. I think that would filter out the undesirables ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/26/2011 22:17, P. J. Alling wrote: I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to the PDML and post to the PUG. Me too, Pete ann On 11/26/2011 9:34 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Christine Aguila wrote: I value the PUG, Brian! Cheers, Christine As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Point taken! :-). Cheers, Christine On Nov 26, 2011, at 9:17 PM, "P. J. Alling" wrote: > I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot uses > facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to the PDML > and post to the PUG. > > On 11/26/2011 9:34 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: >> That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine >> >> >> >> On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: >> >>> Christine Aguila wrote: >>> I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine >>> As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up >>> a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> > > > -- > Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a > lengthily search. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I'm not sure I'd be in favor of that, just about every kind of idiot uses facebook, whereas it takes a special kind of idiot to subscribe to the PDML and post to the PUG. On 11/26/2011 9:34 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Christine Aguila wrote: I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 2011-11-26 21:34, Christine Aguila wrote: That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. I think it could be a good thing. However, it has the same governance issues as the PUG and the PDML: someone has to be "first point of contact" and "owner" at any point it time. And some sort of transition will be required when someone wants to retire from that "owner" role. The folks been able to handle those issues for the PDML, and I'd think they'd be able to handle it for a Facebook PUG page, too. -- Thanks, Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Christine Aguila wrote: > >> I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine > > As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up > a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Christine Aguila wrote: >I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine As far as promoting the PUG goes, it would be quick and easy to set up a PUG Facebook page. Might even attract some people to The List. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/26/2011 19:38, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Nov 26, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: On 11/26/2011 19:00, Brian Walters wrote: snip... I have no evidence to back it up but I suspect most people here look at galleries in the way I suggested. You've only got to look at how few comments the monthly PUG receives. Sometimes I wonder if anyone, other than the contributors, looks at it. Cheers Brian I think lots of people on the list that DON'T contribute do look... (You could add a counter that only you can see to verify this) You're right Ann. My photo.net pages have counters. and I've noticed that "looks" following a PESO post usually total over 40 in the next few hours. That's true whether the post draws one comment or ten. Paul Definitely true with Pesos of mine - there is a counter for galleries on smugmug and the peaks are within a day or two of my posting a peso.. I consider those numbers a favorable response :-) ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I value the PUG, Brian!Cheers, Christine On Nov 26, 2011, at 7:31 PM, "Brian Walters" wrote: > On Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:19 PM, "Ann Sanfedele" > wrote: >> >> >> On 11/26/2011 19:00, Brian Walters wrote: >>> snip... >>> >>> I have no evidence to back it up but I suspect most people here look at >>> galleries in the way I suggested. You've only got to look at how few >>> comments the monthly PUG receives. Sometimes I wonder if anyone, other >>> than the contributors, looks at it. >>> Cheers >>> >>> Brian >>> >> >> I think lots of people on the list that DON'T contribute do look... >> (You could add a counter that only you can see to verify this) > > > Yeah, not a bad idea. I'll do that although I think Igor may already > have some way of measuring site activity. > > > >> But I think lack of time more than inclination keep us from extensively >> commenting on them. Especially when the gallery is just consistently >> good - as it has been. Haven't seen a lemon there in a long while - >> though some themes I like better than others... > > > I wouldn't expect extensive comments - just nomination of a couple of > favourites would confirm that the PUG is actually of some value. I have > been wondering. > > > > Cheers > > Brian > > ++ > Brian Walters > Western Sydney Australia > http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ > > > > > -- > > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:19 PM, "Ann Sanfedele" wrote: > > > On 11/26/2011 19:00, Brian Walters wrote: > >snip... > > > > I have no evidence to back it up but I suspect most people here look at > > galleries in the way I suggested. You've only got to look at how few > > comments the monthly PUG receives. Sometimes I wonder if anyone, other > > than the contributors, looks at it. > > > >> Cheers > > > > Brian > > > > I think lots of people on the list that DON'T contribute do look... > (You could add a counter that only you can see to verify this) Yeah, not a bad idea. I'll do that although I think Igor may already have some way of measuring site activity. > But I think lack of time more than inclination keep us from extensively > commenting on them. Especially when the gallery is just consistently > good - as it has been. Haven't seen a lemon there in a long while - > though some themes I like better than others... I wouldn't expect extensive comments - just nomination of a couple of favourites would confirm that the PUG is actually of some value. I have been wondering. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 26, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > > > On 11/26/2011 19:00, Brian Walters wrote: >> snip... >> >> I have no evidence to back it up but I suspect most people here look at >> galleries in the way I suggested. You've only got to look at how few >> comments the monthly PUG receives. Sometimes I wonder if anyone, other >> than the contributors, looks at it. >> >>> Cheers >> >> Brian >> > > I think lots of people on the list that DON'T contribute do look... > (You could add a counter that only you can see to verify this) You're right Ann. My photo.net pages have counters. and I've noticed that "looks" following a PESO post usually total over 40 in the next few hours. That's true whether the post draws one comment or ten. Paul > But I think lack of time more than inclination keep us from extensively > commenting on them. Especially when the gallery is just consistently good - > as it has been. Haven't seen a lemon there in a long while - > though some themes I like better than others... > > ann > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/26/2011 19:00, Brian Walters wrote: snip... I have no evidence to back it up but I suspect most people here look at galleries in the way I suggested. You've only got to look at how few comments the monthly PUG receives. Sometimes I wonder if anyone, other than the contributors, looks at it. Cheers Brian I think lots of people on the list that DON'T contribute do look... (You could add a counter that only you can see to verify this) But I think lack of time more than inclination keep us from extensively commenting on them. Especially when the gallery is just consistently good - as it has been. Haven't seen a lemon there in a long while - though some themes I like better than others... ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Saturday, November 26, 2011 2:59 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Brian Walters > wrote: > > > Yes, I regard GESOs as being posted for enjoyment, not critical comment. > > I'll usually nominate a couple of favourites but nothing much more. > > Interesting; that approach had never crossed my mind. A > thematically-linked album of photos feels more natural to me than a > single picture standing naked and alone. Not saying you’re wrong or > unreasonable; just another interesting illustration of how wildly > mental models of the world vary. -T Well, I suppose it's a matter of available time. It's difficult enough to keep up with the number of PESOs without trying to critically examine all of the photos in a gallery. But I take your point about a gallery that illustrates a theme. Commenting on how well the images present the theme is definitely worth commenting on. I have no evidence to back it up but I suspect most people here look at galleries in the way I suggested. You've only got to look at how few comments the monthly PUG receives. Sometimes I wonder if anyone, other than the contributors, looks at it. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Brian Walters wrote: > Yes, I regard GESOs as being posted for enjoyment, not critical comment. > I'll usually nominate a couple of favourites but nothing much more. Interesting; that approach had never crossed my mind. A thematically-linked album of photos feels more natural to me than a single picture standing naked and alone. Not saying you’re wrong or unreasonable; just another interesting illustration of how wildly mental models of the world vary. -T -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Saturday, November 26, 2011 5:25 PM, kwal...@peoplepc.com wrote: > My lack of comments on images generally means I'm not interested in the > subject matter or there are too mamy for me to take the time to view. And > as > some one else has already stated, commenting on images in a GESO is just > asking for too much. Yes, I regard GESOs as being posted for enjoyment, not critical comment. I'll usually nominate a couple of favourites but nothing much more. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - > From: "Paul Stenquist" > Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism > > > > After reading Ann's comment, i have to add the same qualifier to my > > previous comment. I can't possibly comment on every photo -- I'd never get > > any work done. So a lack of response doesn't mean I don't like it. > > However, I merely meant to point out that, in regard to my own photos, I > > generally interpret a lack of response as somewhat telling. > > Pau > > On Nov 26, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > > > >> Well I have to jump in just to say this - while I don't bother to comment > >> at all on photos that don't interest me my "doest quite work for me" and > >> suggestions like why dont you you crop a bit are always > >> comments made to photograhers that really do want comments and who > >> seem to be to be those who would like to hear them. > >> > >> But I hope noone ever reads the _lack_ of any comment at all by me > >> (or, for that matter, lots of others of us) as an automatic thumbs down - > >> the randomness with which I read the list and look at the Peso's cannot > >> be exagerated... > >> > >> My PDML folder has over 2000 emails in it right now, and 1258 unread. > >> I'll never get around to reading anything more than a couple of days old. > >> > >> For the most part I only show stuff to the list of my own that I think is > >> at least competent but more as a way of telling what I've been up to > >> instead of writing it in words... or presenting a couple of choices > >> on the same subject because I can't decide which works better... > >> > >> I probably should keep from commenting too much on images until after > >> my eye exam in January :-) > >> > >> ann > >> > >> > >> > >> On 11/26/2011 09:44, Jack Davis wrote: > >>> I agree with Paul. Not that I see every posted image, but if I really > >>> can't find something sufficiently pleasing about an image, I often > >>> convey these feelings by not commenting. > >>> Doesn't happen often, at least not that I've recently noticed, but I > >>> find it particularly inappropriate for a third party to jump to an > >>> indignant defense of an image by means of demeaning comments directed at > >>> the critique's author. > >>> > >>> Jack > >>> . > >>> > >>> > >>> - Original Message - > >>> From: Paul Stenquist > >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >>> Cc: > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 5:02 AM > >>> Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism > >>> > >>> > >>> On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: > >>> > >>>> I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the > >>>> PDML is capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has > >>>> the rhetorical skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't > >>>> on the list when the situation Bill refers to took place, but I just > >>>> can't recall a time when anyone came rhetorically close to repeating > >>>> that situation since I've been on the list, yet there have been plenty > >>>> of times PDMLers received helpful critique, and I've benefited from it. > >>>> Like Larry, I find it helpful when reading the critiques of other > >>>> people's work. Like Brian has said, "Can't we just move on?" > >>>> > >>> Of course. And I think we have. I only referred to the situation Bill > >>> mentioned, because the overall negative rea
Re: Giving and taking criticism
My lack of comments on images generally means I'm not interested in the subject matter or there are too mamy for me to take the time to view. And as some one else has already stated, commenting on images in a GESO is just asking for too much. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism After reading Ann's comment, i have to add the same qualifier to my previous comment. I can't possibly comment on every photo -- I'd never get any work done. So a lack of response doesn't mean I don't like it. However, I merely meant to point out that, in regard to my own photos, I generally interpret a lack of response as somewhat telling. Pau On Nov 26, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: Well I have to jump in just to say this - while I don't bother to comment at all on photos that don't interest me my "doest quite work for me" and suggestions like why dont you you crop a bit are always comments made to photograhers that really do want comments and who seem to be to be those who would like to hear them. But I hope noone ever reads the _lack_ of any comment at all by me (or, for that matter, lots of others of us) as an automatic thumbs down - the randomness with which I read the list and look at the Peso's cannot be exagerated... My PDML folder has over 2000 emails in it right now, and 1258 unread. I'll never get around to reading anything more than a couple of days old. For the most part I only show stuff to the list of my own that I think is at least competent but more as a way of telling what I've been up to instead of writing it in words... or presenting a couple of choices on the same subject because I can't decide which works better... I probably should keep from commenting too much on images until after my eye exam in January :-) ann On 11/26/2011 09:44, Jack Davis wrote: I agree with Paul. Not that I see every posted image, but if I really can't find something sufficiently pleasing about an image, I often convey these feelings by not commenting. Doesn't happen often, at least not that I've recently noticed, but I find it particularly inappropriate for a third party to jump to an indignant defense of an image by means of demeaning comments directed at the critique's author. Jack . - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 5:02 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the PDML is capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has the rhetorical skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't on the list when the situation Bill refers to took place, but I just can't recall a time when anyone came rhetorically close to repeating that situation since I've been on the list, yet there have been plenty of times PDMLers received helpful critique, and I've benefited from it. Like Larry, I find it helpful when reading the critiques of other people's work. Like Brian has said, "Can't we just move on?" Of course. And I think we have. I only referred to the situation Bill mentioned, because the overall negative reaction to that particular critique of so many years ago was justified. I think our discussions of posted photos are appropriate for this type of list. Tips are frequently offered and questions are raised. When no one comments on a photo I've posted, I count that as a statement in itself: BORING! Cheers, Christine On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:01 PM, "Brian Walters" wrote: On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" wrote: Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot from that--it is this group at its best. When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are gratifyingly, constructively critical. When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. I pretty much agree with Rick on this. I only vaguely recall the issue that Bill and Paul referred to, when a particularly scathing and personal cr
Re: Giving and taking criticism
on 2011-11-26 07:03 Daniel J. Matyola wrote I also agree that there is no criticism harsher than getting no comments at all on a PESO. To me that means not only that no one liked it, but also that no one thought there was any hope of fixing it or improving on it. I would much rather hear "That is a poor image because . . . ." when i don't comment on a photo it could be that i dislike it, but ultimately it comes down to whether i had both time and inspiration to organize some thoughts about it; many times i fail to comment on photos i like and even admire (such as Mark C.'s incredible dragonflies) if i comment, it either immediately brought up some thoughts, or it intrigued me enough to ponder the image; my comments are not always "critiques" but i will only give a pat on the back to photos i really enjoy (i'm sort of a junior commenter here because i post very few photos and arrived only a couple of years ago) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I have. =] Jack - Original Message - From: Christine Aguila To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On Nov 26, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Cotty wrote: >> > > I'm sorry. > > (I'm British). > I've never held that against you! :-) Cheers, Christine -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Saturday, November 26, 2011 2:23 PM, "John Sessoms" wrote: > From: David Parsons > > > An idea was floated last year that if you wanted, or were okay with > > critique to use a different tag than PESO. Nothing ever came of it, > > but it's always an option for people who just want to share, and those > > who want active feedback. > > Someone on list has a sig that says something like "criticism welcome, > but may be ignored". That would be P.J. B.C. Alling ;-)> Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ > That's pretty much how I feel about it. I don't post many PESOs, but > those I do you're all welcome to tell me what you think about them, with > the understanding that I'll ignore what you say if I feel like it. > -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 26, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Cotty wrote: >> > > I'm sorry. > > (I'm British). > I've never held that against you! :-) Cheers, Christine -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
From: David Parsons An idea was floated last year that if you wanted, or were okay with critique to use a different tag than PESO. Nothing ever came of it, but it's always an option for people who just want to share, and those who want active feedback. Someone on list has a sig that says something like "criticism welcome, but may be ignored". That's pretty much how I feel about it. I don't post many PESOs, but those I do you're all welcome to tell me what you think about them, with the understanding that I'll ignore what you say if I feel like it. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 26/11/11, Christine Aguila, discombobulated, unleashed: >I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. I'm sorry. (I'm British). -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: > I also agree that there is no criticism harsher than getting no > comments at all on a PESO. To me that means not only that no one > liked it, but also that no one thought there was any hope of fixing it > or improving on it. I would much rather hear "That is a poor image > because . . . ." I hope that’s wrong but I fear that it’s correct. -T -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On 11/25/2011 7:06 PM, William Robb wrote: On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take criticism. And a related discussion of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. -- That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest critique of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will likely have some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word critique kind of come from.) I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph on it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it be a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a kitten gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning image, etc) or no comment at all. Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject. Banal and Cliched are my middle names... -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
After reading Ann's comment, i have to add the same qualifier to my previous comment. I can't possibly comment on every photo -- I'd never get any work done. So a lack of response doesn't mean I don't like it. However, I merely meant to point out that, in regard to my own photos, I generally interpret a lack of response as somewhat telling. Pau On Nov 26, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > Well I have to jump in just to say this - while I don't bother to comment at > all on photos that don't interest me my "doest quite work for me" and > suggestions like why dont you you crop a bit are always > comments made to photograhers that really do want comments and who > seem to be to be those who would like to hear them. > > But I hope noone ever reads the _lack_ of any comment at all by me > (or, for that matter, lots of others of us) as an automatic thumbs down - the > randomness with which I read the list and look at the Peso's cannot be > exagerated... > > My PDML folder has over 2000 emails in it right now, and 1258 unread. > I'll never get around to reading anything more than a couple of days old. > > For the most part I only show stuff to the list of my own that I think is at > least competent but more as a way of telling what I've been up to instead of > writing it in words... or presenting a couple of choices > on the same subject because I can't decide which works better... > > I probably should keep from commenting too much on images until after > my eye exam in January :-) > > ann > > > > On 11/26/2011 09:44, Jack Davis wrote: >> I agree with Paul. Not that I see every posted image, but if I really can't >> find something sufficiently pleasing about an image, I often convey these >> feelings by not commenting. >> Doesn't happen often, at least not that I've recently noticed, but I find it >> particularly inappropriate for a third party to jump to an indignant defense >> of an image by means of demeaning comments directed at the critique's author. >> >> Jack >> . >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: Paul Stenquist >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Cc: >> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 5:02 AM >> Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism >> >> >> On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: >> >>> I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the PDML >>> is capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has the >>> rhetorical skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't on the >>> list when the situation Bill refers to took place, but I just can't recall >>> a time when anyone came rhetorically close to repeating that situation >>> since I've been on the list, yet there have been plenty of times PDMLers >>> received helpful critique, and I've benefited from it. Like Larry, I find >>> it helpful when reading the critiques of other people's work. Like Brian >>> has said, "Can't we just move on?" >>> >> Of course. And I think we have. I only referred to the situation Bill >> mentioned, because the overall negative reaction to that particular critique >> of so many years ago was justified. I think our discussions of posted photos >> are appropriate for this type of list. Tips are frequently offered and >> questions are raised. When no one comments on a photo I've posted, I count >> that as a statement in itself: BORING! >> >> >>> Cheers, Christine >>> >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:01 PM, "Brian Walters" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" >>>> wrote: >>>>> Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. >>>>> >>>>> Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of >>>>> interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the >>>>> photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot >>>>> from that--it is this group at its best. >>>>> >>>>> When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are >>>>> gratifyingly, constructively critical. >>>>> >>>>> When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told >>>>> =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. >&
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 25, 2011, at 7:06 PM, William Robb wrote: > > Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one likes > to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a > banal and cliched subject. > I can agree that no one likes to hear such a message, but if we post an image link and invite comments, presumably we are open to hearing such critiques whether we like hearing them or not. If I honestly want to improve, or at least learn what images I shouldn't show to anyone beyond my crowd of sycophantic admirers, I will listen to and try to comprehend the critique and the mis-match between the critique and my own impressions. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: I have to say, I'm with Ann when she says: > But I hope noone ever reads the _lack_ of any comment at all by me > (or, for that matter, lots of others of us) as an automatic thumbs down - > the randomness with which I read the list and look at the Peso's cannot be > exagerated... > I don't really have a good routine established of regular reading, looking & commenting... often, I just have time for a quick look at a few posts & even fewer remarks. I do feel like I benefit from absorbing the commentary on others' images, and when I post my own, I always appreciate the constructive criticism. For that reason alone, I'm trying to venture more often out of "lurk" mode... :) -c -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 26, 2011, at 7:02 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote: > > > >> >> When no one comments on a photo I've posted, I count that as a statement in >> itself: BORING! Same here. When I get no comments on stuff I've posted, I think the same thing. Cheers, Christine > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Well I have to jump in just to say this - while I don't bother to comment at all on photos that don't interest me my "doest quite work for me" and suggestions like why dont you you crop a bit are always comments made to photograhers that really do want comments and who seem to be to be those who would like to hear them. But I hope noone ever reads the _lack_ of any comment at all by me (or, for that matter, lots of others of us) as an automatic thumbs down - the randomness with which I read the list and look at the Peso's cannot be exagerated... My PDML folder has over 2000 emails in it right now, and 1258 unread. I'll never get around to reading anything more than a couple of days old. For the most part I only show stuff to the list of my own that I think is at least competent but more as a way of telling what I've been up to instead of writing it in words... or presenting a couple of choices on the same subject because I can't decide which works better... I probably should keep from commenting too much on images until after my eye exam in January :-) ann On 11/26/2011 09:44, Jack Davis wrote: I agree with Paul. Not that I see every posted image, but if I really can't find something sufficiently pleasing about an image, I often convey these feelings by not commenting. Doesn't happen often, at least not that I've recently noticed, but I find it particularly inappropriate for a third party to jump to an indignant defense of an image by means of demeaning comments directed at the critique's author. Jack . - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 5:02 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the PDML is capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has the rhetorical skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't on the list when the situation Bill refers to took place, but I just can't recall a time when anyone came rhetorically close to repeating that situation since I've been on the list, yet there have been plenty of times PDMLers received helpful critique, and I've benefited from it. Like Larry, I find it helpful when reading the critiques of other people's work. Like Brian has said, "Can't we just move on?" Of course. And I think we have. I only referred to the situation Bill mentioned, because the overall negative reaction to that particular critique of so many years ago was justified. I think our discussions of posted photos are appropriate for this type of list. Tips are frequently offered and questions are raised. When no one comments on a photo I've posted, I count that as a statement in itself: BORING! Cheers, Christine On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:01 PM, "Brian Walters" wrote: On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" wrote: Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot from that--it is this group at its best. When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are gratifyingly, constructively critical. When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. I pretty much agree with Rick on this. I only vaguely recall the issue that Bill and Paul referred to, when a particularly scathing and personal critique was given. That must be nudging 8-10 years ago, but it seems to have put a permanent moratorium on providing full and frank feedback. Can't we move on? Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: William Robb To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take criticism. And a related discussion of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. -- That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who attempted it one time; he was promptly chased of
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I agree with Paul. Not that I see every posted image, but if I really can't find something sufficiently pleasing about an image, I often convey these feelings by not commenting. Doesn't happen often, at least not that I've recently noticed, but I find it particularly inappropriate for a third party to jump to an indignant defense of an image by means of demeaning comments directed at the critique's author. Jack . - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 5:02 AM Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: > I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the PDML is > capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has the rhetorical > skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't on the list when the > situation Bill refers to took place, but I just can't recall a time when > anyone came rhetorically close to repeating that situation since I've been on > the list, yet there have been plenty of times PDMLers received helpful > critique, and I've benefited from it. Like Larry, I find it helpful when > reading the critiques of other people's work. Like Brian has said, "Can't we > just move on?" > Of course. And I think we have. I only referred to the situation Bill mentioned, because the overall negative reaction to that particular critique of so many years ago was justified. I think our discussions of posted photos are appropriate for this type of list. Tips are frequently offered and questions are raised. When no one comments on a photo I've posted, I count that as a statement in itself: BORING! > Cheers, Christine > > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:01 PM, "Brian Walters" wrote: > >> On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" >> wrote: >>> Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. >>> >>> Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of >>> interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the >>> photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot >>> from that--it is this group at its best. >>> >>> When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are >>> gratifyingly, constructively critical. >>> >>> When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told >>> =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. >>> >>> What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an >>> excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd >>> like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, >>> or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. >>> >> >> >> I pretty much agree with Rick on this. >> >> I only vaguely recall the issue that Bill and Paul referred to, when a >> particularly scathing and personal critique was given. That must be >> nudging 8-10 years ago, but it seems to have put a permanent moratorium >> on providing full and frank feedback. Can't we move on? >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Brian >> >> ++ >> Brian Walters >> Western Sydney Australia >> http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ >> >> >> >> >> >>> Rick >>> >>> http://photo.net/photos/RickW >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: William Robb >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> Cc: >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:06 PM >>> Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism >>> >>> On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: >>> >>>> One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take >>>> criticism. And a related discussion >>> of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who >>> attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. >>> It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest >>> critique of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will >>> likely have some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word >>> critique kind of come from.) >>> I tried to give
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: > It's important to note that the "regular member" didn't just critique the > photo. He told the photographer that he should be ashamed at having posted > such inferior work and generally directed his comments at the person rather > than the phtotograph. He was way out of line and obviously had some personal > problems that interfered with his ability to be civil. > Paul I was around for that post. I must say i was suprised by it, but was still new and figured out what was going on later on. Dave > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 7:06 PM, William Robb wrote: > >> On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: >> >>> One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take >>> criticism. And a related discussion >> of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. >>> >>> -- >>> >> That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who >> attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. >> It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest critique >> of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will likely have >> some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word critique kind of >> come from.) >> I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph on >> it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. >> And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it be >> a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a kitten >> gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning image, etc) >> or no comment at all. >> >> Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one >> likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor >> rendering of a banal and cliched subject. >> >> -- >> >> William Robb >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I to enjoy praises and knock downs of my photos, i use this information on any re shoots and future endeavors. As far as being able to take and handle criticism and reject,. i think people of my generation were taught how to fail, that it was not the end of the world. I think a lot of younger people don't know how to accept this and cannot deal with it. I see this in the students i drive and lunch monitor. As far as offering, i will comment on a photo i like, and usually do not if its a photo i'm not crazy about. Maybe i should as the photographer may be looking for just such . Dave On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: > I've realized that one reason the PDML has helped me improve my photography > is not only feedback on my photos, but looking at other people's photos and > reading the feedback on them. It has exposed me to different styles of > photography, given me a feel what other people like, or dislike, and why, and > in many cases set the bar up much higher than when all I ever did was pretty > much look at my own photos. I've been on a few other forums which have a lot > of people who are just barely past the stage of understanding how f/stop > affects depth of field and think that makes them a technical expert. > > One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take > criticism. And a related discussion of what venues on the net, or off, are > good for that sort of discussion. > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I miss the days when I got scathing comments on my PESOs. They were always helpful, or at least thought provoking, even when the comments were a little hurtful. I'm a big boy, and I can take criticism. I made it though Marine boot camp, where I was insulted by professionals. I realize that I am a mediocre photographer. The only way that I will get any better, however, is if the people here who know more than I do give me frank critiques of my efforts. I can always post images in the non-photography groups to which I belong if I need my ego stroked. I also agree that there is no criticism harsher than getting no comments at all on a PESO. To me that means not only that no one liked it, but also that no one thought there was any hope of fixing it or improving on it. I would much rather hear "That is a poor image because . . . ." Perhaps we need to categories of image submissions on this list: Pictures submitted for admiration or amusement and images submitted for Critical Review. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: > I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the PDML is > capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has the rhetorical > skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't on the list when the > situation Bill refers to took place, but I just can't recall a time when > anyone came rhetorically close to repeating that situation since I've been on > the list, yet there have been plenty of times PDMLers received helpful > critique, and I've benefited from it. Like Larry, I find it helpful when > reading the critiques of other people's work. Like Brian has said, "Can't we > just move on?" > Of course. And I think we have. I only referred to the situation Bill mentioned, because the overall negative reaction to that particular critique of so many years ago was justified. I think our discussions of posted photos are appropriate for this type of list. Tips are frequently offered and questions are raised. When no one comments on a photo I've posted, I count that as a statement in itself: BORING! > Cheers, Christine > > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:01 PM, "Brian Walters" wrote: > >> On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" >> wrote: >>> Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. >>> >>> Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of >>> interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the >>> photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot >>> from that--it is this group at its best. >>> >>> When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are >>> gratifyingly, constructively critical. >>> >>> When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told >>> =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. >>> >>> What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an >>> excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd >>> like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, >>> or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. >>> >> >> >> I pretty much agree with Rick on this. >> >> I only vaguely recall the issue that Bill and Paul referred to, when a >> particularly scathing and personal critique was given. That must be >> nudging 8-10 years ago, but it seems to have put a permanent moratorium >> on providing full and frank feedback. Can't we move on? >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Brian >> >> ++ >> Brian Walters >> Western Sydney Australia >> http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ >> >> >> >> >> >>> Rick >>> >>> http://photo.net/photos/RickW >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: William Robb >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> Cc: >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:06 PM >>> Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism >>> >>> On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: >>> >>>> One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take >>>> criticism. And a related discussion >>> of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who >>> attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. >>> It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest >>> critique of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will >>> likely have some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word >>> critique kind of come from.) >>> I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph >>> on it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. >>> And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it >>> be a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a >>> kitten gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning >>> image, etc) or no comment at all. >>> >>> Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one >>> likes to be told that their image is an excruciatin
Re: Giving and taking criticism
I agree with Rick and Brian. And I agree with Ken. Everyone on the PDML is capable of giving frank and respectful critique. Everyone has the rhetorical skills and the photographic technical skills. I wasn't on the list when the situation Bill refers to took place, but I just can't recall a time when anyone came rhetorically close to repeating that situation since I've been on the list, yet there have been plenty of times PDMLers received helpful critique, and I've benefited from it. Like Larry, I find it helpful when reading the critiques of other people's work. Like Brian has said, "Can't we just move on?" Cheers, Christine On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:01 PM, "Brian Walters" wrote: > On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" > wrote: >> Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. >> >> Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of >> interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the >> photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot >> from that--it is this group at its best. >> >> When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are >> gratifyingly, constructively critical. >> >> When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told >> =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. >> >> What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an >> excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd >> like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, >> or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. >> > > > I pretty much agree with Rick on this. > > I only vaguely recall the issue that Bill and Paul referred to, when a > particularly scathing and personal critique was given. That must be > nudging 8-10 years ago, but it seems to have put a permanent moratorium > on providing full and frank feedback. Can't we move on? > > > Cheers > > Brian > > ++ > Brian Walters > Western Sydney Australia > http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ > > > > > >> Rick >> >> http://photo.net/photos/RickW >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: William Robb >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Cc: >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:06 PM >> Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism >> >> On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: >> >>> One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take >>> criticism. And a related discussion >> of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. >>> >>> -- >>> >> That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who >> attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. >> It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest >> critique of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will >> likely have some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word >> critique kind of come from.) >> I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph >> on it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. >> And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it >> be a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a >> kitten gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning >> image, etc) or no comment at all. >> >> Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one >> likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor >> rendering of a banal and cliched subject. >> >> -- >> William Robb >> >> -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> >> > -- > > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Ken, Nothing wrong with your criticisms. I always look forward to them. Regards, Bob S. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:52 PM, wrote: > I've attended critiques of participant images done during outdoor workshops > by professional outdoor photogs. > For most of them it is really hard to offer honest critiques of attendees > images for fear of crushing the spirit of the attendee. The better pros will > give honest comment to an outstanding image and offer an area of improvement > to those images that are not so good. > > I've always solicit critiques from the pros I've shot with, knowing the > quality of the images they have produced and that they are interested in > helping to improve the work of the attendees. > > I'll take critiques from others but will balance it by the quality of work > that I've seen them produce. > > Hell, they're only images. > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "William Robb" > > > Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism > > >> On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: >> >>> One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take >>> criticism. And a related discussion >> >> of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. >>> >>> -- >>> >> That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who >> attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. >> It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest >> critique of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will >> likely have some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word >> critique kind of come from.) >> I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph >> on it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. >> And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it >> be a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a >> kitten gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning image, >> etc) or no comment at all. >> >> Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one >> likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor >> rendering of a banal and cliched subject. >> >> -- >> >> William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
On Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 PM, "Rick Womer" wrote: > Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. > > Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of > interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the > photo in LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot > from that--it is this group at its best. > > When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are > gratifyingly, constructively critical. > > When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told > =why= people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. > > What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an > excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd > like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, > or vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. > I pretty much agree with Rick on this. I only vaguely recall the issue that Bill and Paul referred to, when a particularly scathing and personal critique was given. That must be nudging 8-10 years ago, but it seems to have put a permanent moratorium on providing full and frank feedback. Can't we move on? Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ > Rick > > http://photo.net/photos/RickW > > > - Original Message - > From: William Robb > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Cc: > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:06 PM > Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism > > On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: > > > One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take > > criticism. And a related discussion > of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. > > > > -- > > > That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who > attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. > It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest > critique of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will > likely have some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word > critique kind of come from.) > I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph > on it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. > And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it > be a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a > kitten gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning > image, etc) or no comment at all. > > Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one > likes to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor > rendering of a banal and cliched subject. > > -- > William Robb > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > > -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
Larry, Let me share what we have done in the local Pentax group here in the Philippines, I get to be asked to critique photos ever so often and Filipinos are the worst in either giving or receiving critique (okay, someone out there might think their culture are worse...). One thing that I have done is to make a 'rules of engagement' that allows the critique to be private. This "softens" the shame factor of a really scathing comment. This also makes Facebook the worst place to critique photos--its hard to make sober criticism when the photographers' mom "liked" it. So we have this ritual of having them state they seriously want a critique and then they should put the photo in the end of their stream in Flickr (by changing the date the photo was uploaded) so it would not be randomly seen. >From then on a conversation follows in the comments page which, depending on the one being critiqued, may either be deleted or shared to the rest of the group. I usually add a disclaimer that goes "...feel free to delete this comment after you have read it..." I generally get a "thank you" for my comments, of which I assume to mean "thanks but no thanks" (esp for the bad ones) then never hear from them again. A funny ending to one episode was after I deconstructed this guy's photo, he went ahead and shared to the group the photo complete with my comments. I asked "are you sure?" He said he's actually proud of it--its like showing off a black eye given by Manny Pacquiao... Bong :-) On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Larry Colen wrote: > I wasn't referring to the PDML per se, but just the skills in general. Being > an engineer, I could spend a lot of time designing an online photography > critique community, but that is an exercise in mental masturbation that I'll > leave for another day. > > Here is a disorganized brain dump of some of my thoughts on the subjects. > Maybe, at some point, I'll try and actually write a coherent piece on the > subject. Or at least put in enough effort to find one that someone else has > already written. > > 1) Opinions are neither right nor wrong. If someone doesn't like something, > there's nothing to argue about. Different people will like different things. > On several occasions two photos, or two versions, of the same photo, posted > to a group of skilled photographers, with the question "which is better", > and invariably the results are split. And it can be for reasons as basic as > "I prefer color" , "I prefer black and white", or "I hate the shade of teal > in the second shot". > > 2) I can learn from anybody. Even if I know far more than someone about a > particular topic, they can always see something that I missed. > > 3) I least enjoy hearing about what I did wrong, but that is usually what I > most need to hear to improve my craft. If I don't know what's wrong, it is > very hard to fix it. > > 4) It is just as important to tell someone what they did right, what worked, > as what didn't work. > > 5) It is very rarely as useful to ask for critique of a set, as it is of a > single photograph. The person reviewing them won't have time to devote to > each one, and there will almost always be exceptions to observations like > "it looks like your horizon is crooked", or "it looks like your autofocus is > in love with the microphone and hates the vocalist". > > 6) It is often more useful to ask for feedback about a particular aspect of > a photograph. > > 7) Don't just say that something is wrong, give suggestions on how to fix > it. > > 8) I can learn as much from reading critiques of other people's work, as I > can reading critiques of my own. > > 9) Someone looking at a photo on a wall generally won't care if it was taken > at ISO 640, f/8 or with an instamatic, Hasselblad, or 645D. However, someone > trying to help you improve your photography will need to know details like > ISO, shutter speed, aperture, maybe the lens, was it on a tripod or hand > held, what sort of lighting, did you shoot a grey card frame to set the > color balance, was it taken on auto or manual focus, or any of the myriad of > technical details that affect a shot. > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Bong Manayon http://bong.manayon.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Giving and taking criticism
An idea was floated last year that if you wanted, or were okay with critique to use a different tag than PESO. Nothing ever came of it, but it's always an option for people who just want to share, and those who want active feedback. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Rick Womer wrote: > Having nominated Bill for a "Mark!", I don't agree with him. > > Over the summer I posted a view from a New Hampshire peak. I got lots of > interesting and useful comments, and one list member manipulated the photo in > LR and posted a version much better than mine. I learned a lot from that--it > is this group at its best. > > When a pic falls short, I want to know why. Several people here are > gratifyingly, constructively critical. > > When I have a pic that works, it's nice to be told so, and also be told =why= > people think it works. Many listers are good at that, too. > > What I don't like is getting no comments on a photo at all. If it's "an > excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a banal and cliched subject" I'd > like to know that. If it's technically great but the subject is lacking, or > vice versa, I'd like to know that, too. > > Rick > > http://photo.net/photos/RickW > > > - Original Message ----- > From: William Robb > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Cc: > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:06 PM > Subject: Re: Giving and taking criticism > > On 25/11/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: > >> One thing I haven't seen a lot of is discussion on how to give and take >> criticism. And a related discussion > of what venues on the net, or off, are good for that sort of discussion. >> >> -- >> > That's because we don't offer criticism here. We had a regular member who > attempted it one time; he was promptly chased off the island. > It put a very real chill on the entire concept of giving an honest critique > of images that get shown here, since any honest critique will likely have > some criticism accompanying it (that being what the word critique kind of > come from.) > I tried to give a critique one time and was told to accept the photograph on > it's own merits, and either accept it for what it was or STFU. > And now you know why most every photograph that is shown here, whether it be > a stunning landscape or a tedious snapshot of a child playing with a kitten > gets, more or less, the same response (great capture, stunning image, etc) or > no comment at all. > > Most people don't want a critique, they want an ego massage, and no one likes > to be told that their image is an excruciatingly boring, poor rendering of a > banal and cliched subject. > > -- > William Robb > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
