Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: Tom C Having checked the stats... In 2007... children aged: <1... 57 drownings 1-4.. 458 drownings (#1 rank of deaths by unintentional injury for 2007 in this age group) 5-9.. 122 drownings apparently people get stupider as they age as opposed to smarter for a while... 10-14... 102 15-19... 630 and the numbers hover in the 300's/400's on up through all ages I don't know if the raw numbers tell the whole story though. There were three adult drownings in North Carolina over the Memorial Day Weekend. All three lost their lives while trying to rescue children. The children were rescued. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: "P. J. Alling" On 5/31/2010 5:33 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: "P. J. Alling" >> crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that? >> > > It expected you to take "personal responsibility." ;-D It was a little, (very), joke... Yeah, mine too. I guess we both have "small" minds. 8^) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 5:27 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: Plus you asked for the insight of an Economist, and I spent a good number of years studying to become one. I'm not kidding when I talk about my disdain for the profession. So I surely did. Well, you sure have your reasons for disdain... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: DagT Den 31. mai 2010 kl. 23.28 skrev John Sessoms: I got no kids myself, and ain't too thrilled with how much I have to pay in taxes to support schools and other stuff the government does ... Maybe you should think about it this way: Someone has to pay for your pension. Did you think the government or insurance companies put your money in a jar? I think they are betting that the next generation will pay. If the next generation are too few or doesn?t have the money, you don?t get any. In poor countries they see their children as investments in the future, but in many ways they are the same in our part of the world. I think you may have missed my point. I agree that children are the future. And education is the least costly way to achieving a desirable outcome; cheaper than letting them grow up savages and ending up warehoused in prison somewhere. I understand WHY I have to pay my share of taxes to accomplish something for the greater good of society as a whole even if it doesn't benefit me personally. But I don't have to enjoy paying taxes. I only have to pay them. I don't have to like it. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 11:33 AM, Tom C wrote:
Having checked the stats...
In 2007... children aged:
<1... 57 drownings
1-4.. 458 drownings (#1 rank of deaths by
unintentional injury for 2007 in this age group)
5-9.. 122 drownings
apparently people get stupider as they age as opposed to smarter for a while...
I wouldn't say they get stupider as they age, in some ways more clever
and better able to implement poorly thought out plans.
10-14... 102
15-19... 630
and the numbers hover in the 300's/400's on up through all ages
#1 cause of unintentional injuring causing death, all ages...
Motor vehicle accidents...
Drive safe.
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Tom C wrote:
Having thought again after what you wrote Peter, I now feel there is no
solution that is enforceable for the problem.
A technology based approach does not guarantee the problem still won't occur
the same way education does not guarantee it.
Statistically I'd guess more children die from drowning in swimming pools
each year.
(Not saying this is unimportant, which is the whole reason Paul wrote the
article.)
Tom C
On Jun 1, 2010 7:56 AM, "P. J. Alling" wrote:
Boris, you equate my dislike of government control with a dislike of
technology? I can't even think of words about how wrong headed that is.
Your examples don't even make particular sense. We've gotten away from the
issue.
Here is the contention.
Parents are forgetting their toddlers in cars, who are then dying from
heat prostration.
Your answer, force every person buying a car to have a special warning
device installed to remind parents that their child is in the car.
My contention, is that this makes no sense. I didn't do an
exhaustive search but the numbers I was able to find suggest this is a very
rare occurrence.
(In the US this happened 27 times a year on average, for the last 10
years, in a country with a populations over 300,000,000).
I also believe that Government better have a pretty compelling
reason to force citizens to do anything, and this just doesn't rise to that
level, yes it's a tragedy, but it's in the realm of personal not public.
You disagree but your main argument seems to be that Government
makes us to a lot of stupid things that cost money so what's just one more.
I disagree and point out that there may even be an existing
technological solution that requires only a bit of effort on your part.
You tell me I'm against technology?
Boris, I love you man, but give me a break.
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On 6/1/2010 1:35 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/31/2010 5:56 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
I won...
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Having checked the stats...
In 2007... children aged:
<1... 57 drownings
1-4.. 458 drownings (#1 rank of deaths by
unintentional injury for 2007 in this age group)
5-9.. 122 drownings
apparently people get stupider as they age as opposed to smarter for a while...
10-14... 102
15-19... 630
and the numbers hover in the 300's/400's on up through all ages
#1 cause of unintentional injuring causing death, all ages...
Motor vehicle accidents...
Drive safe.
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Tom C wrote:
> Having thought again after what you wrote Peter, I now feel there is no
> solution that is enforceable for the problem.
>
> A technology based approach does not guarantee the problem still won't occur
> the same way education does not guarantee it.
>
> Statistically I'd guess more children die from drowning in swimming pools
> each year.
>
> (Not saying this is unimportant, which is the whole reason Paul wrote the
> article.)
>
> Tom C
>
> On Jun 1, 2010 7:56 AM, "P. J. Alling" wrote:
>
> Boris, you equate my dislike of government control with a dislike of
> technology? I can't even think of words about how wrong headed that is.
> Your examples don't even make particular sense. We've gotten away from the
> issue.
>
> Here is the contention.
>
> Parents are forgetting their toddlers in cars, who are then dying from
> heat prostration.
>
> Your answer, force every person buying a car to have a special warning
> device installed to remind parents that their child is in the car.
>
> My contention, is that this makes no sense. I didn't do an
> exhaustive search but the numbers I was able to find suggest this is a very
> rare occurrence.
> (In the US this happened 27 times a year on average, for the last 10
> years, in a country with a populations over 300,000,000).
>
> I also believe that Government better have a pretty compelling
> reason to force citizens to do anything, and this just doesn't rise to that
> level, yes it's a tragedy, but it's in the realm of personal not public.
>
> You disagree but your main argument seems to be that Government
> makes us to a lot of stupid things that cost money so what's just one more.
>
> I disagree and point out that there may even be an existing
> technological solution that requires only a bit of effort on your part.
>
> You tell me I'm against technology?
>
> Boris, I love you man, but give me a break.
>
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>
> On 6/1/2010 1:35 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
>>
>> On 5/31/2010 5:56 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>>>
>>> I won...
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 1:20 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/31/2010 7:58 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
For this we might save and I stress might save the lives of 26 children
a year. I say the money is better spent on cigarettes and booze.
Peter, I cannot, will not and should not argue with such an argument.
I won't call you names right now, but trust me, you really tempt me
this time.
Boris
P.S. I dismissed your math as it is something I don't care too much
about at this specific moment.
Don't look at the math, look at the order of magnitudes of the numbers.
This is a very tiny problem. I agree it's a tragedy, I wouldn't want to
see this happen to a dog, but there needs to be some proportionality
here. Plus you asked for the insight of an Economist, and I spent a
good number of years studying to become one. I'm not kidding when I
talk about my disdain for the profession.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 1:16 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/31/2010 10:17 PM, paul stenquist wrote:
Part of the problem with making a warning device optional is that
everyone believes it could never happen to them. That's also part of
why it happens with relative frequency. Three deaths this week alone
in the U.S. Looks like we'll be setting a new record this year. Paul
Right. Like I said earlier, people (at least here, in Israel) are
mostly reactive. And when someone tries to call for proactive action,
they are met with all kinds of criticism. Probably natural to our
species, but it frustrates heck out of my (however feeble) intelligence.
Boris
The numbers show it will probably never happen to them. They are simply
being rational.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 4:59 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: Boris, I love you man, but give me a break. Break is thereby given, granted and sealed. I am feeling awfully close to the language/on-line communication barrier here, because I wasn't saying that you dislike technology and I was trying to say something entirely different. But having given, granted and sealed the break you requested I take my leave here. I appreciate your summary of the discussion. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 1:35 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/31/2010 5:56 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
I won't appoligize, after all I also called myself an idiot. There are
other options, if your car has keyless entry you may already have one
solution. Some keyless systems won't let you lock the car if an
electronic key is in the car. If yours works that way attach the fob to
the baby's car seat. The car won't let you forget it. I'm sure that
there are other solutions if you're that worried. But your wife didn't
forget the child, and I doubt she would, almost forgetting is something
else. But that brings up an important question; Why do you expect or
want the State to tell you to do something that you already know you
should do, why do you want the State to treat you as an incompetent?
I don't expect and don't want anything, Peter. But I suggest you turn
off/out/away all automation in your present life and live one day
without it - no cell phone, no car, no mass transit, nothing. If you
want to get to your work - run, if you want to buy a nice steak - go
hunt, but don't use a gun - use a spear that you will have maee
yourself without help of any modern tools whatsoever...
Boris
Boris, you equate my dislike of government control with a dislike of
technology? I can't even think of words about how wrong headed that
is. Your examples don't even make particular sense. We've gotten away
from the issue.
Here is the contention.
Parents are forgetting their toddlers in cars, who are then dying
from heat prostration.
Your answer, force every person buying a car to have a special
warning device installed to remind parents that their child is in the car.
My contention, is that this makes no sense. I didn't do an
exhaustive search but the numbers I was able to find suggest this is a
very rare occurrence.
(In the US this happened 27 times a year on average, for the
last 10 years, in a country with a populations over 300,000,000).
I also believe that Government better have a pretty compelling
reason to force citizens to do anything, and this just doesn't rise to
that level, yes it's a tragedy, but it's in the realm of personal not
public.
You disagree but your main argument seems to be that
Government makes us to a lot of stupid things that cost money so what's
just one more.
I disagree and point out that there may even be an existing
technological solution that requires only a bit of effort on your part.
You tell me I'm against technology?
Boris, I love you man, but give me a break.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 9:13 AM, John Francis wrote: It's complicated. In general, the rights of the "state" (or country, here) are subservient to the rights of the individual. That includes the right of the presumed legal guardian of the child (the parent, typically) to make decisions that may, in some cases, be injurious to the well-being of the child. In particular it is quite legal for a parent to decline medical treatment for a child where such treatment would go against the religious beliefs of the parent. There have been a few (very well publicised) cases where the state has tried to intervene and force medical treatment on an incapacitated individual even though the legal guardians of said individual were opposed to this action (probably the most infamous case in recent memory in the USA being that of Terry Schiavo, but there have been similar cases brought in other countries). I see your point. Indeed this is very interesting and not simple. And I readily admit that my Soviet background shows in my arguments. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On Tue, Jun 01, 2010 at 08:18:58AM +0300, Boris Liberman wrote: > On 5/31/2010 7:29 PM, John Francis wrote: >> Wrong. For some number of years (exact number depending on where you live) >> they are citizens, but not yet fully fledged - they are minors. A minor >> does not have the right to vote, or to enter into legally binding contracts; >> a parent (or a legal guardian acting in loco parentis) gets to make those >> decisions. As such, it's the parents responsibility tp look after the child. > > John, when a child is born and, G-d forbid, dies for any reason - is it > an obligation of the state to actually find out why? If a child is born > do they immediately get their most basic right to actually live in this > country? If a child is born - is she or he protected by the state? > > If so, my argument still stands. It's complicated. In general, the rights of the "state" (or country, here) are subservient to the rights of the individual. That includes the right of the presumed legal guardian of the child (the parent, typically) to make decisions that may, in some cases, be injurious to the well-being of the child. In particular it is quite legal for a parent to decline medical treatment for a child where such treatment would go against the religious beliefs of the parent. There have been a few (very well publicised) cases where the state has tried to intervene and force medical treatment on an incapacitated individual even though the legal guardians of said individual were opposed to this action (probably the most infamous case in recent memory in the USA being that of Terry Schiavo, but there have been similar cases brought in other countries). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 7:49 PM, John Francis wrote: Actually, the thread is doing surprisingly well. Apart from a few unfortunate uses of terms like "idiot" or "bullshit", the discussion has mostly been conducted using mostly well-reasoned arguments. That said, this is one of those issues (like religion, or politics) where it is extremely unlikely that anyone will change their opinion. Yeah, right. But I for one learned a number of interesting and important things from this thread. For that I am thankful to everyone who participated. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 8:05 PM, Tom C wrote: I personally believe: 1) A society has the responsibility to look out for the safety, health, and education of all it's citizens. 2) To that end, every individual is taxed to provide that, for the greater good of all. 3) Deaths of children left in cars is tragic in every case. 4) Statistically, and number-wise, there are far greater issues that deserve our attention, causing far greater loss of human life, than this one. 5) Would it hurt me to pay extra for cars with sensors? No, I doubt I'd notice, and would not complain about doing so, but I think this issue is a molehill compared to some mountains. Tom C. Thank you, Tom. I might as well go ahead to agree with every word you wrote above. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 5:56 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: I won't appoligize, after all I also called myself an idiot. There are other options, if your car has keyless entry you may already have one solution. Some keyless systems won't let you lock the car if an electronic key is in the car. If yours works that way attach the fob to the baby's car seat. The car won't let you forget it. I'm sure that there are other solutions if you're that worried. But your wife didn't forget the child, and I doubt she would, almost forgetting is something else. But that brings up an important question; Why do you expect or want the State to tell you to do something that you already know you should do, why do you want the State to treat you as an incompetent? I don't expect and don't want anything, Peter. But I suggest you turn off/out/away all automation in your present life and live one day without it - no cell phone, no car, no mass transit, nothing. If you want to get to your work - run, if you want to buy a nice steak - go hunt, but don't use a gun - use a spear that you will have maee yourself without help of any modern tools whatsoever... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 3:14 AM, Tom C wrote: The problem with this whole idea of protecting people (I'm sure this has been said here, haven't read every post) is... OK fine, protect baby from consequences of parent's actions. What about after the child is removed from the car? 1. Might parent lay baby down, and baby roll of changing table? That could result in severe head trauma resulting in paralysis, loss of hearing, vision, or death. 2. Might parent let go of toddler's hand? Child could get lost, abducted, or runover after wandering into street. 3. Might parent allow child to stand in shopping cart? See item 1. 4. Might parent give toy made in China to child? Poor Johnny may choke to death or get lead poisoning. 5. Might parent leave toxic chemicals in the house where poor Suzy might drink it? Poor Suzy, she doesn't have lips anymore. Neither parents or children can be protected from the consequences of their actions, or the actions of others, 100% of the time, probably not 1% of the time. So Tom, you decide to take this argument ad absurdum. Well, after all it was you who took close up portraits of folks in Chicago with 14 mm lens ;-). No, we don't want to arrive to the situation described by Issac Asimov's planet Aurora (I think it was the name) from his robot stories. But let me ask you a question. Consider the following realistic scenario: 1. Two years ago you bought a Toyota car (Corolla, Camry, whatever). It ran for two years without a problem. 2. Two months ago you read on the news that Toyota has massive recall. You check and your car is among those who you can go with to the dealership to have it inspected and fixed if need be. 3. Since your car is running fine so many years and miles you decide you don't need to loose your precious time on rubbish. 4. Next day you crash and upon investigation it turns out that you crashed because of that part that Toyota found faulty and had to engage in that massive recall operation. 5. Now, consider carefully, Tom. And I think Bill Robb might take a look at this as well. Ethically, Tom, you're the one who is totally guilty of the very sad and unfortunate situation you're in. However, legally you will most likely go on and sue the hell out of Toyota. My point being that if you are aware of a specific danger and a specific way to avoid it that you can implement - ethically you should take action. Or at least in case of my private code of ethics. But then again, I am Jewish of Eastern European descent, so that to say that I am overprotective is to say all too little. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 7:58 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: For this we might save and I stress might save the lives of 26 children a year. I say the money is better spent on cigarettes and booze. Peter, I cannot, will not and should not argue with such an argument. I won't call you names right now, but trust me, you really tempt me this time. Boris P.S. I dismissed your math as it is something I don't care too much about at this specific moment. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 7:29 PM, John Francis wrote: Wrong. For some number of years (exact number depending on where you live) they are citizens, but not yet fully fledged - they are minors. A minor does not have the right to vote, or to enter into legally binding contracts; a parent (or a legal guardian acting in loco parentis) gets to make those decisions. As such, it's the parents responsibility tp look after the child. John, when a child is born and, G-d forbid, dies for any reason - is it an obligation of the state to actually find out why? If a child is born do they immediately get their most basic right to actually live in this country? If a child is born - is she or he protected by the state? If so, my argument still stands. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 10:17 PM, paul stenquist wrote: Part of the problem with making a warning device optional is that everyone believes it could never happen to them. That's also part of why it happens with relative frequency. Three deaths this week alone in the U.S. Looks like we'll be setting a new record this year. Paul Right. Like I said earlier, people (at least here, in Israel) are mostly reactive. And when someone tries to call for proactive action, they are met with all kinds of criticism. Probably natural to our species, but it frustrates heck out of my (however feeble) intelligence. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 6:02 PM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 01/06/2010, Boris Liberman wrote: Well, I am not sure your car has it, but my sure does - it is called ISOFix and it is a set of anchors (for lack of better word) that are used in order to extra securely attach a child seat... So glad you brought this up Boris ;-) ISOFix is proven to be more effective in most crash simulations than the conventional seat belt anchorages however due to Australian Design Rules it's illegal to fit an ISOFIX seat to a car in Australia and it doesn't look like changing any time soon. See how we are protected by legislation. I did not say that the global planet-wide legislation must be put in place. I reckon in Siberia such discussion as this one would be moot at best. Or on Alaska. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 5:31 PM, William Robb wrote: Even if I don't have children, there is a good chance that I may well be carrying rear seat passengers (not in my truck though) at some point. IIRC, it's been pretty well documented that airbags can cause very young children significant injury, /which I believe is why car seats should go into the vehicle facing backwards rather than forwards if there is an airbag present on the seat/. Wrong. What you say however is actually the reason why cars are equipped with the switch that can switch off the front passenger seat air bag. In Israel, if I am not mistaken it is forbidden to put a child seat on a (front) seat of a car if you cannot switch off the regular air bag. I am not talking here about side air bags or knee air bags or whatever fancy air bags you car may or may not have. Again, you would do better to insist that it be an option on car seats, not cars. As soon as it is an option on cars, it sill become a standard feature at an extra cost to everyone, whether you need it or not. Right, but come think of it. It is likely going to be needing some juice. I am unaware as of yet of common child seats that can be plugged in. So either it will require yet another car modification (and it could be that wiring each car seat with some kind of outlet is really going to be pretty expensive and complex) or you will have to run all kinds of wires in the cabin yourself - not too good either. But you have a point, Bill, and I think Bob W made similar point - make it an option and make it an option of the car seat. I can agree with that, but I am thinking we are discussing the issue of somewhat more general scale here - do we encourage (legislate, do so by voting with our credit cards, publicly promote, whatever) such devices or do we simply shrug the issue off. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 5:42 PM, William Robb wrote: To a great extent we are discussing ethics. That is what the law is about. We take the ethics we would like to see in our society and compel people into following what we think is an ethical approach. It tends to break down when special interest groups get their wedge into the door and start to force people into doing not what is necessarily right for society, but what is right for them. I believe that ethics does not taste very well if spiced with money arithmetic. And the next thing you arrive to is someone (e.g. Peter) preferring cigarettes and booze to whatever ethical issue you're discussing. No offense, Peter, just making a example to the point. To bring this back to the discussion at hand, if a special interest group in my country put a big push on to have some sort of child alert device mandated into every new vehicle sold, they would make a lot of noise about it being "for the children", and anyone who disagreed would be branded as a child hater who wants to see kids getting killed in hot cars. By making this jump in logic, they would effectively shut up any discussion on the subject and would force their will onto the majority of the people. I've seen this sort of thing happen enough to be very wary of any special interest group. Well, it has to take a degree of leveled and cool head to have productive conversation on the matter. So far, it seems it has been the case, though I haven't yet read all the messages from yesterday (my time). Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 6/1/2010 12:50 AM, John Sessoms wrote: Some have cited those parents who deliberately left children in the car as irresponsible. Could anyone plausibly argue those parents KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the risk? Or argue that had they known the risk, they would still have subjected their children to intentional harm? I think not. Right. I agree with you, John. As long as it is not the "lack of knowledge of the law is not an excuse of breaking it", this is valid argument. Meaning that education and/or P.R. campaign of some kind can be useful here. Darn, education is what is lacking in great many aspects of our lives anyway. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 5:33 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
From: "P. J. Alling"
crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that?
It expected you to take "personal responsibility." ;-D
It was a little, (very), joke...
On 5/31/2010 1:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
> On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote:
>> 2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
>>> I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
>> field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing
is a
>> flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
>>
> Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's
not > as evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident.
>
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist" Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars On May 31, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Madame RD wrote: Le 31/05/10 16:12, Boris Liberman a écrit : I agree. Bob W indicated that he wouldn't mind if it were an option. However, I would add to Bob W's agreement a requirement of my own that such a system would be available from any car manufacturer as an extra cost option. Boris seems to me it's a very good idea . Over here, a very serious-minded chemist left his baby daughter to die in his car because he had had to interrupt his daily routine ( had to stop and help at a car accident after leaving his first child at her school) he hurried to work and completely forgot about her . He never could explain how such a thing could have happened. I dont remember whether he was condamned or not . dominique Part of the problem with making a warning device optional is that everyone believes it could never happen to >them. That's also part of why it happens with relative frequency. Three deaths this week alone in the U.S. >Looks like we'll be setting a new record this year. Paul Damm global warning.. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Bob W" Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars A kid who successfully completes the journey through scholl ...will have extremely good foot health all his life! Probably using Brook's spell checker -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
The in-carseat sensor, as opposed to a mfr-installed device seems the most appropriate solution, if one is even required. That way only the persons with the children of concern pay for the device. The problem with this whole idea of protecting people (I'm sure this has been said here, haven't read every post) is... OK fine, protect baby from consequences of parent's actions. What about after the child is removed from the car? 1. Might parent lay baby down, and baby roll of changing table? That could result in severe head trauma resulting in paralysis, loss of hearing, vision, or death. 2. Might parent let go of toddler's hand? Child could get lost, abducted, or runover after wandering into street. 3. Might parent allow child to stand in shopping cart? See item 1. 4. Might parent give toy made in China to child? Poor Johnny may choke to death or get lead poisoning. 5. Might parent leave toxic chemicals in the house where poor Suzy might drink it? Poor Suzy, she doesn't have lips anymore. Neither parents or children can be protected from the consequences of their actions, or the actions of others, 100% of the time, probably not 1% of the time. I sort of agree with helmet laws, but then again I ski and do not wear a helmet, even though I realize it could provide an extra degree of protection (I just don't plan on pulling a Sonny Bono). So I understand the view and reasoning of those who do not wish to wear one. Tom C. On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Ken Waller wrote: > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message ----- From: "Boris Liberman" > > Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars > > >> On 5/31/2010 6:06 AM, Ken Waller wrote: >>> >>> Boris, to me the issue is that this is an issue that doesn't affect a >>> great many people. Only those that, for what ever reason, leave their >>> children in their vehicle. And for that the entire society should be >>> penalized ? >> >> I am thinking your wording is inexact. Let me try to rephrase in a way I >> see it. "Only those that, for whatever reason, *might* leave their children >> in their vehicle"... > > Everyone with small children 'might' leave them in a car, but very, very few > do. > >> >> Because not many people run red lights daily, only few. But you cannot >> have road patrols just for them, you have them for everybody. > > A totally different issue. > >> >> Boris >> >> P.S. I am thinking that the entire society is penalized much more by other >> things, say overgrown bureaucratic system than by $10 extra for every >> vehicle. > > The overgrown bureaucratic system seems to be a part of the issue here, some > like you want to make it bigger by mandating a requirement to implement a > device for rear seat child safety. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 31, 2010, at 7:44 PM, Ken Waller wrote: > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "Boris Liberman" > > Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars > > >> On 5/31/2010 6:06 AM, Ken Waller wrote: >>> Boris, to me the issue is that this is an issue that doesn't affect a >>> great many people. Only those that, for what ever reason, leave their >>> children in their vehicle. And for that the entire society should be >>> penalized ? >> >> I am thinking your wording is inexact. Let me try to rephrase in a way I see >> it. "Only those that, for whatever reason, *might* leave their children in >> their vehicle"... > > Everyone with small children 'might' leave them in a car, but very, very few > do. Unfortunately, it seems that more do so every day. Doctors, teachers, scientists and trailer-park residents. Distraction doesn't seem to be a function of intelligence or economic status. All who have forgotten a child, once believed it could never happen to them. I'm not advocating a solution. But the facts are alarming. Paul > >> >> Because not many people run red lights daily, only few. But you cannot have >> road patrols just for them, you have them for everybody. > > A totally different issue. > >> >> Boris >> >> P.S. I am thinking that the entire society is penalized much more by other >> things, say overgrown bureaucratic system than by $10 extra for every >> vehicle. > > The overgrown bureaucratic system seems to be a part of the issue here, some > like you want to make it bigger by mandating a requirement to implement a > device for rear seat child safety. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Boris Liberman" Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars On 5/31/2010 6:06 AM, Ken Waller wrote: Boris, to me the issue is that this is an issue that doesn't affect a great many people. Only those that, for what ever reason, leave their children in their vehicle. And for that the entire society should be penalized ? I am thinking your wording is inexact. Let me try to rephrase in a way I see it. "Only those that, for whatever reason, *might* leave their children in their vehicle"... Everyone with small children 'might' leave them in a car, but very, very few do. Because not many people run red lights daily, only few. But you cannot have road patrols just for them, you have them for everybody. A totally different issue. Boris P.S. I am thinking that the entire society is penalized much more by other things, say overgrown bureaucratic system than by $10 extra for every vehicle. The overgrown bureaucratic system seems to be a part of the issue here, some like you want to make it bigger by mandating a requirement to implement a device for rear seat child safety. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Den 31. mai 2010 kl. 23.28 skrev John Sessoms: > > I got no kids myself, and ain't too thrilled with how much I have to pay in > taxes to support schools and other stuff the government does ... Maybe you should think about it this way: Someone has to pay for your pension. Did you think the government or insurance companies put your money in a jar? I think they are betting that the next generation will pay. If the next generation are too few or doesn´t have the money, you don´t get any. In poor countries they see their children as investments in the future, but in many ways they are the same in our part of the world. DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: Madame RD Le 31/05/10 16:12, Boris Liberman a ?crit : > I agree. Bob W indicated that he wouldn't mind if it were an option. > However, I would add to Bob W's agreement a requirement of my own that > such a system would be available from any car manufacturer as an extra > cost option. > > Boris seems to me it's a very good idea . Over here, a very serious-minded chemist left his baby daughter to die in his car because he had had to interrupt his daily routine ( had to stop and help at a car accident after leaving his first child at her school) he hurried to work and completely forgot about her . He never could explain how such a thing could have happened. I dont remember whether he was condamned or not . dominique One of the articles cited earlier in the thread said stress can mess up your short term memory. Not only was his daily routine disrupted, but it was disrupted in an especially stressful way - by having to help at the scene of an automobile accident. That's why intelligence is no indicator for your likelihood to fall victim to one of these lapses. You can be subject to undue stress no matter how smart you are. Society is more stressful than it used to be, hence the number of incidents grows. And neither your intelligence, nor your socio-economic status in life can insulate you from that stress. Maybe if you're financially well off and well educated you have stress from different directions than if you're working poor wondering whether your next paycheck will be enough to pay the baby-sitter. But you still have stress. Being poor and undeducated just means you have more stress and fewer tools for dealing with it. Some have cited those parents who deliberately left children in the car as irresponsible. Could anyone plausibly argue those parents KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the risk? Or argue that had they known the risk, they would still have subjected their children to intentional harm? I think not. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 10:32 AM, eckinator wrote: 2010/5/31 William Robb: I find it galling enough that as a non parent my tax dollars are being spent on subsidized day care or school taxes. Pondering whether to take a deep breath and shut my trap or let you have a piece of my mind here... Let rip, but remember two things: 1) you might not like what comes back to you. 2) I will still respect you in the morning. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: "P. J. Alling" crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that? It expected you to take "personal responsibility." ;-D On 5/31/2010 1:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: > On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote: >> 2010/5/31 Larry Colen: >>> I believe that hospitals call it "triage". >> field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a >> flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list? >> > Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's not > as evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: John Francis On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 06:32:23PM +0200, eckinator wrote: > 2010/5/31 William Robb : > > > > I find it galling enough that as a non parent my tax dollars are being spent > > on subsidized day care or school taxes. > > Pondering whether to take a deep breath and shut my trap or let you > have a piece of my mind here... Well, I'm a non-parent, too, and my takes are being spent on a whole lot of things I don't like. But I view the two examples quoted as a case where there is some long-term benefit to me. Subsidised day care is good - it lets people get back to work (doing jobs that I personally wouldn't want to do myself) without it being bad for their children. I don't see why day care should be a benefit only available to people who work at Google, say. School taxes is an even easier issue. Education is an investment that yields a pretty high return. A kid who successfully completes the journey through scholl (and state college) is less likely to end up breaking into my house and stealing my cameras. I'd rather pay $1 to educate them than $5 to arrest them and stick them in prison. School taxes are justifiable from a purely selfish viewpoint. I got no kids myself, and ain't too thrilled with how much I have to pay in taxes to support schools and other stuff the government does ... and still have to pay for utilities like water & sewer & garbage collection on top of all the taxes I pay. Still, I figure schools cost less than jails. Schools you only got to pay for some of 'em to get one meal a day, and jail you got to pay for 3 meals & a roof over their head & health care & ... You're gonna' pay one way or the other. Schools do seem like the more cost effective choice for society in general. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
If Bob wants to smear his brain all over the highway because it's his personal responsibility whether or not he wears a helmet, I'm cool with that. But why should I have to contribute to his maintenance when he ends up in a persistent vegetative state from doing something stupid? And should I, who do prudently wear the mandated personal protective equipment, be denied care because the resources that might be used to treat me were already used up by someone who refused to do so? Or should I be taxed additionally so that there are enough facilities to provide care to both? Especially when the additional cost might be easily avoided by enforcement of the helmet laws? Instead of "the State", say society has an interest to force individuals to take self protective measures to the extent that their failure to do so adds an unfair burden on the rest of society. Personal responsibility is all well and good, but you must accept ALL of the responsibility. Indeed, but before making helmet-wearing compulsory you'd need to be satisfied that it would in fact reduce the cost to you. But actually, experience in different parts of the world shows that it wouldn't, that it would increase the cost of healthcare generally because so many people would stop cycling and taking exercise, leading to an increase in such things as heart disease. Additionally, you need to consider all the other activities that increase the general cost of health care, and consider banning those activities too, or excluding them from healthcare. The largest costs of a healthcare system are for things like heart disease and other problems brought about by people's lifestyles - too much smoking and drinking, eating the wrong food and not taking enough exercise. If you really want to reduce your tax bill then this is what you should be going after. You would also, of course, have to give the frontline medical personnel some reasonable guidance on how to triage based on your value judgements, rather than on medical need. For example, when I broke my wrist after falling off a bike, entirely due to my own carelessness, should I have been billed? Or was it not my fault that my wrist broke, because I'm unfortunate enough to have low bone density? These problems can't be dealt with on a case-by-case basis which is why, if we're to have a universal health service, it must be based on clinical need and not on value judgement, and why people should not be forced to change their behaviour to satisfy the penny-pinchers. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Triage = THREE *RIGHT NOW!! *Can wait 'til later *Won't make any difference not quite. Triage as a word has the same origins as try, trial etc. from French trier which means to sort, pick out, pick over, grade, select, marshal, etc. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: eckinator 2010/5/31 Larry Colen : > > I believe that hospitals call it "triage". field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list? Not just field hospitals. Every hospital and urgent care facility uses triage. It may not be as critically evident, but it's there. That's why the guy with the stomach ache doesn't get seen right away and the guy with severe chest pain goes right in, and why the DOA goes into the hallway. Triage = THREE *RIGHT NOW!! *Can wait 'til later *Won't make any difference -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: Boris Liberman On 5/31/2010 1:13 PM, Bob W wrote: > yes, sure, but that's changing the terms of the discussion. So far the > discussion has been about whether the state has a right to force the > individual to something 'for his own good'. I say it doesn't. It could be that you and I had a discussion on close but different sets of terms here. I see your point now. I say that the State *may have* a right to force (or very strongly recommend) something to the individual if it prevents severe harm to individual's health or may be even their death. If Bob wants to smear his brain all over the highway because it's his personal responsibility whether or not he wears a helmet, I'm cool with that. But why should I have to contribute to his maintenance when he ends up in a persistent vegetative state from doing something stupid? And should I, who do prudently wear the mandated personal protective equipment, be denied care because the resources that might be used to treat me were already used up by someone who refused to do so? Or should I be taxed additionally so that there are enough facilities to provide care to both? Especially when the additional cost might be easily avoided by enforcement of the helmet laws? Instead of "the State", say society has an interest to force individuals to take self protective measures to the extent that their failure to do so adds an unfair burden on the rest of society. Personal responsibility is all well and good, but you must accept ALL of the responsibility. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
From: "Ken Waller" From: "David J Brooks" > >From what is read and hear on news hours, its not so much a case of > "forgetting" a child in a car, but rather intentional short term > abandonment for shopping, and the parent(s) personal gratifications. What ever the reason, the issue is a total lack of personal responsibility for one's actions. That argument gives me a lot of heartburn, mainly because I've heard it used as a defense too many times by persons who refused to take responsibility. It's been abused so many times that every time I hear the "personal responsibility" mantra, I also hear the unspoken "just don't expect ME to take responsibility for MY actions!" Just so you know. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 31, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Madame RD wrote: > Le 31/05/10 16:12, Boris Liberman a écrit : >> I agree. Bob W indicated that he wouldn't mind if it were an option. >> However, I would add to Bob W's agreement a requirement of my own that such >> a system would be available from any car manufacturer as an extra cost >> option. >> >> Boris > seems to me it's a very good idea . > > Over here, a very serious-minded chemist left his baby daughter to die in his > car because he had had to interrupt his daily routine ( had to stop and help > at a car accident after leaving his first child at her school) he hurried > to work and completely forgot about her . He never could explain how such a > thing could have happened. I dont remember whether he was condamned or not . > > dominique > Part of the problem with making a warning device optional is that everyone believes it could never happen to them. That's also part of why it happens with relative frequency. Three deaths this week alone in the U.S. Looks like we'll be setting a new record this year. Paul > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Now that's pretty funny. :-)
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
>
> On May 31, 2010, at 10:32 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>
>> crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that?
>
> Because use of the spell checker is voluntary, not mandatory. We need to
> pass a law that requires compulsory spell-checkers on email, that will sound
> an audible alarm if you try to send an email with misspelled words.
>
> It should only cost a couple of dollars per computer to implement.
>
>>
>> On 5/31/2010 1:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>>> On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote:
2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
> I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
>>> Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's not as
>>> evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> {\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1033{\fonttbl{\f0\fnil\fcharset0
>> Courier New;}}
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>> interface subtly weird.\par
>> }
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> --
> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>
>
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>
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Le 31/05/10 16:12, Boris Liberman a écrit : I agree. Bob W indicated that he wouldn't mind if it were an option. However, I would add to Bob W's agreement a requirement of my own that such a system would be available from any car manufacturer as an extra cost option. Boris seems to me it's a very good idea . Over here, a very serious-minded chemist left his baby daughter to die in his car because he had had to interrupt his daily routine ( had to stop and help at a car accident after leaving his first child at her school) he hurried to work and completely forgot about her . He never could explain how such a thing could have happened. I dont remember whether he was condamned or not . dominique -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 31, 2010, at 10:32 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:
> crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that?
Because use of the spell checker is voluntary, not mandatory. We need to pass
a law that requires compulsory spell-checkers on email, that will sound an
audible alarm if you try to send an email with misspelled words.
It should only cost a couple of dollars per computer to implement.
>
> On 5/31/2010 1:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>> On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote:
>>> 2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
>>> field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
>>> flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
>>>
>> Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's not as
>> evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident.
>>
>
>
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 1:47 PM, Bob W wrote:
A kid who successfully completes
the journey through scholl
...will have extremely good foot health all his life!
But the important question will he be a Dr.?
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
A kid who successfully completes the journey through scholl ...will have extremely good foot health all his life! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
It's a vast left-wing conspiracy.
You've heard of the dumbing down of America being an accidental
phenomena. It's actually deliberate.
Tom C.
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 1:32 PM, P. J. Alling
wrote:
> crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that?
>
> On 5/31/2010 1:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>>
>> On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote:
>>>
>>> 2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
>>>
>>> field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
>>> flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
>>>
>> Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's not as
>> evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident.
>>
>
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
crysus vs crises how did the spell checker let me send that?
On 5/31/2010 1:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote:
2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's not
as evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Don't get me started Peter... :-)
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 1:23 PM, P. J. Alling
wrote:
> Great frauds from tiny increments grow. The fact that you, or for that
> matter, I personally wouldn't notice the relatively small increase in the
> cost of an automobile. Howmany gigantic boondoggles do we put up with
> because it doesn't cost much money us individually?
>
> On 5/31/2010 1:05 PM, Tom C wrote:
>>
>> I personally believe:
>>
>> 1) A society has the responsibility to look out for the safety,
>> health, and education of all it's citizens.
>> 2) To that end, every individual is taxed to provide that, for the
>> greater good of all.
>> 3) Deaths of children left in cars is tragic in every case.
>> 4) Statistically, and number-wise, there are far greater issues that
>> deserve our attention, causing far greater loss of human life, than
>> this one.
>> 5) Would it hurt me to pay extra for cars with sensors? No, I doubt
>> I'd notice, and would not complain about doing so, but I think this
>> issue is a molehill compared to some mountains.
>>
>> Tom C.
>>
>> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 12:49 PM, John Francis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 01:05:54PM +0200, eckinator wrote:
>>>
2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
>
> I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
>
field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
>>>
>>> Actually, the thread is doing surprisingly well. Apart from a few
>>> unfortunate uses of terms like "idiot" or "bullshit", the discussion
>>> has mostly been conducted using mostly well-reasoned arguments.
>>>
>>> That said, this is one of those issues (like religion, or politics)
>>> where it is extremely unlikely that anyone will change their opinion.
>>> As such, I feel it is probably time to let the thread fade away so
>>> we can get back to our discussions of art (or Art) and aperture
>>> s(t)imulators.
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Great frauds from tiny increments grow. The fact that you, or for that
matter, I personally wouldn't notice the relatively small increase in
the cost of an automobile. Howmany gigantic boondoggles do we put up
with because it doesn't cost much money us individually?
On 5/31/2010 1:05 PM, Tom C wrote:
I personally believe:
1) A society has the responsibility to look out for the safety,
health, and education of all it's citizens.
2) To that end, every individual is taxed to provide that, for the
greater good of all.
3) Deaths of children left in cars is tragic in every case.
4) Statistically, and number-wise, there are far greater issues that
deserve our attention, causing far greater loss of human life, than
this one.
5) Would it hurt me to pay extra for cars with sensors? No, I doubt
I'd notice, and would not complain about doing so, but I think this
issue is a molehill compared to some mountains.
Tom C.
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 12:49 PM, John Francis wrote:
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 01:05:54PM +0200, eckinator wrote:
2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
Actually, the thread is doing surprisingly well. Apart from a few
unfortunate uses of terms like "idiot" or "bullshit", the discussion
has mostly been conducted using mostly well-reasoned arguments.
That said, this is one of those issues (like religion, or politics)
where it is extremely unlikely that anyone will change their opinion.
As such, I feel it is probably time to let the thread fade away so
we can get back to our discussions of art (or Art) and aperture
s(t)imulators.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 6:39 AM, paul stenquist wrote:
On May 30, 2010, at 11:56 PM, Ken Waller wrote:
Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller
- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 30, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Ken Waller wrote:
Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller
- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 30, 2010, at 7:47 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
Not always forgetfulness - sometimes just plain ignorance.
The hyperthermia deaths are sometimes the result of ignorance. But the majority
are inadvertently caused by otherwise responsible parents.
Ahem Paul I would change that to 'irresponsible parents'. Having children
is among other things, a responsibiity.
You could change that, but the facts wouldn't support you. Most of those who
have inadvertently forgotten an infant have otherwise very clean records.
Distraction and the stresses of daily life can cause even the best of men and
women to fail from time to time. The record supports that. Yes, it seems like
its impossible to forget one's child, but apparently it's not.
I didn't say they weren't fine upstanding members of the community, but that
they were unwilling to be responsible for their actions, they left their child
in the car, I didn't.
Everyone makes mistakes, it how we deal with them that is the issue here.
I don't know of anyone who has caused the death of their child or someone
else's and has been unwilling to take responsibility for the outcome. Some have
even been incarcerated, although not many. The Post article that preceded mine
deals with that in depth. It's independent safety advocates who have been
pushing for a warning device. As I said, I take no position on the issue.
Paul
"Independent advocates" have been pushing for everything, it doesn't
matter how few people are affected, it doesn't matter that those
involved could have taken precautions on their own, it doesn't matter
the total cost, because; "It's for the children." Say those four,(well
five actually), magic words, then say the second magic formula; "It
only costs x number of dollars, for each y! (where x is some
sufficiently small amount, and y is some sufficently large group of
things, car, person, whatever), and you get a mandate. So what if x is
underestamated, as it usually is, it's still small. Small that is until
you all the damn xs up and the cost to each person becomes substantial.
But it's done deal because "It's for the Children!"
In this specific case, instead of spending the money on something that
might be of utility to them car buyers pay for another non essential on
an already over complicated car. Which by the way probably costs too
much for most of the people who might actually forget their children in
a car. They have used cars, in which most of the extr crap stopped
working years ago.
Paul
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
I personally believe: 1) A society has the responsibility to look out for the safety, health, and education of all it's citizens. 2) To that end, every individual is taxed to provide that, for the greater good of all. 3) Deaths of children left in cars is tragic in every case. 4) Statistically, and number-wise, there are far greater issues that deserve our attention, causing far greater loss of human life, than this one. 5) Would it hurt me to pay extra for cars with sensors? No, I doubt I'd notice, and would not complain about doing so, but I think this issue is a molehill compared to some mountains. Tom C. On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 12:49 PM, John Francis wrote: > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 01:05:54PM +0200, eckinator wrote: >> 2010/5/31 Larry Colen : >> > >> > I believe that hospitals call it "triage". >> >> field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a >> flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list? > > Actually, the thread is doing surprisingly well. Apart from a few > unfortunate uses of terms like "idiot" or "bullshit", the discussion > has mostly been conducted using mostly well-reasoned arguments. > > That said, this is one of those issues (like religion, or politics) > where it is extremely unlikely that anyone will change their opinion. > As such, I feel it is probably time to let the thread fade away so > we can get back to our discussions of art (or Art) and aperture > s(t)imulators. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 06:32:23PM +0200, eckinator wrote: > 2010/5/31 William Robb : > > > > I find it galling enough that as a non parent my tax dollars are being spent > > on subsidized day care or school taxes. > > Pondering whether to take a deep breath and shut my trap or let you > have a piece of my mind here... Well, I'm a non-parent, too, and my takes are being spent on a whole lot of things I don't like. But I view the two examples quoted as a case where there is some long-term benefit to me. Subsidised day care is good - it lets people get back to work (doing jobs that I personally wouldn't want to do myself) without it being bad for their children. I don't see why day care should be a benefit only available to people who work at Google, say. School taxes is an even easier issue. Education is an investment that yields a pretty high return. A kid who successfully completes the journey through scholl (and state college) is less likely to end up breaking into my house and stealing my cameras. I'd rather pay $1 to educate them than $5 to arrest them and stick them in prison. School taxes are justifiable from a purely selfish viewpoint. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote:
2010/5/31 Larry Colen:
I believe that hospitals call it "triage".
field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a
flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list?
Every hospitial engages in triage, under most circumstances it's not as
evident. During a crysus it becomes a lot more evident.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 4:21 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/30/2010 11:54 PM, paul stenquist wrote:
I didn't say that the fact that much of the cost goes back into the
economy is a reason to do this. I just pointed out, correctly, that
the cost per device times the number of cars isn't the true cost to
society. And I'm not necessarily in favor of regulation. Never have
been. But I'm in favor of truth and accuracy. Paul
I might as well go a step further and maintain that none of us can
actually produce a accurate and truthful assessment of
financial/economic aspect of this issue, unless we have some
professional economist among us. I for one, wouldn't dare say that
mere multiplication of number of cars however approximate it be by the
cost of this device is an accurate figure.
Boris
As someone who was trained to be an economist, I can tell you few of
them are even capable of making objective assessments, and even fewer
who can make those assessments do.
Lets look at the utility of this device.
According to Ask.com 230 children have died from being left in cars in
the US since 1998. Assuming for the sake of argument well take the
average number for a year. That works out to 23 children per year.
The population of the US was in July of 2009 estimated to be
307,006,550, (which is too damned accurate for an estamate in my
estimation).
Simple mathematics, (and I take no responsibility for absolute accuracy
on this I could be off by an order of magnitude), gives a result of
.0024 deaths of this kind per hundred thousand of population. Now lets
just think about that for a moment. Even if I'm off by an order of
magnitude on the low side, the odds of this happening are vanishingly
small, but since it happens finite, demonstrably so.
Now lets assume that each family of four owns one car. (Very simplistic
I know, but that's really how economists work, If I were really doing a
study I'd refine this considerably, but in the end my numbers wouldn't
be any more or less meaningful). That gives a rough estimate of
76751637.5 cars, (I wonder who gets the half car, with my luck probably
me). I'll dispense with how many cars per hundred thousand of
population, and leave that as exercise for those who actually give a
rats a**.
Now I'm going to put my engineers hat on for a moment, (software, but
still, I have held that title), and talk about costs. I figure the
device in question could be put together for about $10~$15 of off the
shelf parts, (engineers are always pulling numbers out of their a**),
but it will cost an order of magnitude more once assembled and installed
in a car, lets split the difference and call it $125.00, (now I'll don
my retailers hat and pull a few more numbers), but the final consumer
will pay an order of magnitude more... OK maybe not the full $1250,
maybe only half that. So lets say $600. (Yes, economists really do
work this way).
Now we have some "hard" numbers. this gives us a total cost of
$46,050,982,500. to society. The side benefits are beside the point.
Spending that kind of money will help the economy no matter how it's
spent, (I would do the math but it requires complex derivatives, and
really most economists don't understand it either). The actual stated
benefit would be to a very small percentage of the population.
We must remember that all cars won't have this "feature" now, in fact as
the average car lasts about 10 years all cars won't have this feature
for 10 years, and given that most devices that don't directly benefit
the driver fall by the wayside after warranted service expires a lot
that have it built in won't either.
For this we might save and I stress might save the lives of 26 children
a year. I say the money is better spent on cigarettes and booze.
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 01:05:54PM +0200, eckinator wrote: > 2010/5/31 Larry Colen : > > > > I believe that hospitals call it "triage". > > field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a > flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list? Actually, the thread is doing surprisingly well. Apart from a few unfortunate uses of terms like "idiot" or "bullshit", the discussion has mostly been conducted using mostly well-reasoned arguments. That said, this is one of those issues (like religion, or politics) where it is extremely unlikely that anyone will change their opinion. As such, I feel it is probably time to let the thread fade away so we can get back to our discussions of art (or Art) and aperture s(t)imulators. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Bob W writes: > sure, that's perfectly consistent with the liberal idea. > > The difficulties arise when you try to apply the limits fairly and how > you decide what unacceptable means. I never said it was easy. :) Anwyay, we're obviously on the same page. -tih -- SIGTHTBABW - a signal sent from Unix to its programmers at random intervals to make them remember that There Has To Be A Better Way --Erik Naggum -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 William Robb : > > I find it galling enough that as a non parent my tax dollars are being spent > on subsidized day care or school taxes. Pondering whether to take a deep breath and shut my trap or let you have a piece of my mind here... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:12:10AM +0300, Boris Liberman wrote: > > 2. Consider the same situation from the child perspective. Once born in > a state of A, B or C, they become fully fledged citizens of that state, > right? Wrong. For some number of years (exact number depending on where you live) they are citizens, but not yet fully fledged - they are minors. A minor does not have the right to vote, or to enter into legally binding contracts; a parent (or a legal guardian acting in loco parentis) gets to make those decisions. As such, it's the parents responsibility tp look after the child. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 Bob W : > [...] >> >> I know. I was kidding. Triage suggested it. And the greater benefit >> for the greater number is a good guiding principle. But some >> applications of it are ugly. >> > > it's a terrible guiding principle - it inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Democracy just as much. Democratorships like the Bush era are fortunately rare. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Then you've misunderstood me. I'm only saying that it may be necessary for societies to limit the freedom of individual members to perform acts that may result in unacceptable added cost or reduced freedom to other members of that same society. sure, that's perfectly consistent with the liberal idea. The difficulties arise when you try to apply the limits fairly and how you decide what unacceptable means. In the case you mentioned - bicycle helmets - my response is that there are other activities which people take part in which entail far greater costs to society, and these include everyday activities such as eating the wrong type of food, smoking, drinking too much and not taking enough exercise. Indeed, it has been shown that enforcing the use of cycle helmets leads to a greater cost to society because it reduces overall health levels. So you have to be very careful deciding how and why you are going to limit somebody's freedom, and be prepared for a fight. You have to be prepared to justify limiting one activity as opposed to some other which may cause similar harm to society, and you have to decide why you should stop with that activity - why not ban all activities which entail a cost to society? It's up to you to answer these questions as soon as you start proposing limits on freedom. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Bob W writes: >>> The approach you suggest leads to absurd consequences which would be >>> unacceptable in any right-thinking society. >> >> Only if you insist on taking it to the extreme. Real societies don't. >> > > that's because real societies don't adopt the approach you suggest. Then you've misunderstood me. I'm only saying that it may be necessary for societies to limit the freedom of individual members to perform acts that may result in unacceptable added cost or reduced freedom to other members of that same society. -tih -- SIGTHTBABW - a signal sent from Unix to its programmers at random intervals to make them remember that There Has To Be A Better Way --Erik Naggum -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
The approach you suggest leads to absurd consequences which would be unacceptable in any right-thinking society. Only if you insist on taking it to the extreme. Real societies don't. that's because real societies don't adopt the approach you suggest. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Bob W writes: > The approach you suggest leads to absurd consequences which would be > unacceptable in any right-thinking society. Only if you insist on taking it to the extreme. Real societies don't. > It's part of being a human and living in a civilised society. To me, an important part of that is the establishment of common rules that we all choose to follow in order to further our common interest. -tih -- SIGTHTBABW - a signal sent from Unix to its programmers at random intervals to make them remember that There Has To Be A Better Way --Erik Naggum -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 01/06/2010, Boris Liberman wrote: > Well, I am not sure your car has it, but my sure does - it is called ISOFix > and it is a set of anchors (for lack of better word) that are used in order > to extra securely attach a child seat... So glad you brought this up Boris ;-) ISOFix is proven to be more effective in most crash simulations than the conventional seat belt anchorages however due to Australian Design Rules it's illegal to fit an ISOFIX seat to a car in Australia and it doesn't look like changing any time soon. See how we are protected by legislation. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
...you might just as well herd all the kids into state-run boarding
schools where they will, no doubt, be much safer...
Good one Bob.
On 5/31/2010 6:13 AM, Bob W wrote:
[...]
in that case you're going to have to legislate to remove all possible
self-imposed risk from the world. You're going to have to make smoking
illegal, you're going to have to make sunbathing for longer than 30
minutes a day illegal, crossing the road while the green man is
flashing, walking the streets without wearing a helmet,...
B
Bob, it is not black/white scenario like you seem to be trying to
paint it. I am thinking that "self-imposed" is the keyword here. If a
state can protect you from somebody *else's* stupidity (because,
pardon my bluntness, you're not omniscient or omnipotent) and do so
for $10 per car or $10 per motorcycle, they might as well go on and
do it.
yes, sure, but that's changing the terms of the discussion. So far the
discussion has been about whether the state has a right to force the
individual to something 'for his own good'. I say it doesn't.
Now, the classic starting point for liberalism is that you are free to
do whatever you want, provided you don't infringe the right of other
people to do the same. The state is an institution that we have
established to guarantee that principle. Therefore it does have to try
and protect me from other people's stupidity in as much as that
stupidity might prevent me from going about my lawful business. That's
why we enforce red traffic lights, and have gun laws and such like. At
the same time, it doesn't absolve me from the responsibility to look
after myself.
Children are also protected by the state but they are in a special
position because unlike normal adults they are not fully autonomous
members of society yet. They are under the stewardship of their
parents and their parents have the first responsibility for their
well-being. The parents have to make the minute-by-minute decisions
about what is best for the child, including whether or not it is safe
to leave them in the back of a car. Once you start leaving that sort
of decision to other people, particularly the state, you might just as
well herd all the kids into state-run boarding schools where they
will, no doubt, be much safer...
Bob
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 4:36 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/30/2010 8:44 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:
Boris
There might be some merit to that. Some studies, (I wish I had a link
but a Google search will probably turn up a bunch pro and con), have
show that in many cases intersections are safer with fewer lights,
and signs. Drivers are more cautious entering, they don't have a
false sense of security.
Well, yes, I was surprised by some "unmanaged" crossings around Stanford
(I think it was Stanford that I visited some years ago). You will also
be surprised that very often if a busy crossing lights break in my area,
it is usually major time loss for commuters.
However I'll answer on point. Your example is a straw man. The
"benefit" from street lights and other traffic control improvements
accrue to all drivers and most pedestrians, pretty much all of
society, pretty much directly.
Well, I've read some arguments or opinions against that in other
messages in this thread, but /I/ agree with you - the benefit is there.
The only thing everyone gains from this is a good feeling, that we've
/done/ /something/. Which is still likely to a.) not solve the
problem, I believe in the idiocy of dedicated idiots, and b.) cause
more had wringing when it doesn't work. I know everyone can be and
Idiot about something sometimes. Hell I'm an idiot more than most,
(someday I'll tell the story of how I ran over my own dog. He
survived...), but I don't expect society to save me from my idiocy,
because it can't!
Well, Peter, you just called an idiot my wife who admitted to me
yesterday (we talked about this thread a bit) that since she is sitting
next to me and our younger is sitting alone on the back sit, she caught
herself once or twice that she was forgetting about Anat. I am thinking
that you should at least reconsider and at most apologize.
Peter, consider very simple and likely scenario. An alone mother of
two kids must get one kid to the hospital. And she cannot leave the
other child at home. She takes that child with them and under pressure
and stress forgets that poor child in the car. I see no "dedicated
idiocy" here. I see a tragic possibility for which I would gladly pay
$10 of my money every year to have it avoided across my country.
Admittedly, it'll give me a /good feeling/ that you pointed out, but
it as well may save some _innocent_ lives...
... But we have to recognize that life is dangerous. We cannot
guarantee perfect safety, to all people at all times. We can't afford
it either financially or more importantly for the sake of the
individual's spirit. To even attempt to do so is a fools errand.
Somebody's got to say stop somewhere.
That's right. But you can give it a proper benefit of a doubt, spend
your time considering and not dismiss any such offer outright just
because.
Boris
I won't appoligize, after all I also called myself an idiot. There are
other options, if your car has keyless entry you may already have one
solution. Some keyless systems won't let you lock the car if an
electronic key is in the car. If yours works that way attach the fob to
the baby's car seat. The car won't let you forget it. I'm sure that
there are other solutions if you're that worried. But your wife didn't
forget the child, and I doubt she would, almost forgetting is something
else. But that brings up an important question; Why do you expect or
want the State to tell you to do something that you already know you
should do, why do you want the State to treat you as an incompetent?
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Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 8:28 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: I would even disagree that it is my responsibility to get involved in a child being locked in a hot car, in that the law should have no right to force me to get involved, either by actively coercing me by saying I have to, or passively coercing me by charging me with negligence for not doing so. Well, that's disputable, but it would be a general ethics dispute, which I think we might want to avoid, at least on list. To a great extent we are discussing ethics. That is what the law is about. We take the ethics we would like to see in our society and compel people into following what we think is an ethical approach. It tends to break down when special interest groups get their wedge into the door and start to force people into doing not what is necessarily right for society, but what is right for them. To bring this back to the discussion at hand, if a special interest group in my country put a big push on to have some sort of child alert device mandated into every new vehicle sold, they would make a lot of noise about it being "for the children", and anyone who disagreed would be branded as a child hater who wants to see kids getting killed in hot cars. By making this jump in logic, they would effectively shut up any discussion on the subject and would force their will onto the majority of the people. I've seen this sort of thing happen enough to be very wary of any special interest group. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 8:12 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: On 5/31/2010 4:45 PM, William Robb wrote: So Boris, how is forcing me to spend an extra couple of hundred dollars or so on a new vehicle for a baby seat monitor that will never be used going to protect me from someone else's stupidity? How is someone doing a shake and bake on their infant by locking them in a car going to harm me personally? Well, I am not sure your car has it, but my sure does - it is called ISOFix and it is a set of anchors (for lack of better word) that are used in order to extra securely attach a child seat... Yes, I am familiar with them. I have them in my truck, and in my wife's car. She uses them to secure the dog kennel, I use them to secure my toolbox. Suppose, sir William that you have only a family of two, which as far as I remember is the case for you. Now, tell me does it really help you to have 2 air bags for special protection of rear seat occupants??? Neither of my vehicles have rear seat airbags, and in fact my truck no longer has rear seats or seatbelts. I removed both to make it easier to carry my dogs. I am thinking that those air bags are way more expensive than the above monitor. Yet, I don't recall hearing much protest from you or anyone else on this. Even if I don't have children, there is a good chance that I may well be carrying rear seat passengers (not in my truck though) at some point. IIRC, it's been pretty well documented that airbags can cause very young children significant injury, which I believe is why car seats should go into the vehicle facing backwards rather than forwards if there is an airbag present on the seat. When people toss numbers around like $10.00/ vehicle, they are blowing smoke out their ass. When our government mandated daytime headlight use, and forced manufacturers to put a device into vehicles that forced the headlights on whenever the car was put in gear, it may have only been a $10.00 component, but the cost to the consumer was a couple of hundred dollars per car according to the Canadian Automobile Association at the time the legislation was passed. I agree. Bob W indicated that he wouldn't mind if it were an option. However, I would add to Bob W's agreement a requirement of my own that such a system would be available from any car manufacturer as an extra cost option. Again, you would do better to insist that it be an option on car seats, not cars. As soon as it is an option on cars, it sill become a standard feature at an extra cost to everyone, whether you need it or not. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 5:09 PM, William Robb wrote: The point is, that the onus is on the parent to look after their child in a way that is consistent with ensuring that child grows up to adulthood and becomes a contributing member of society. True. It's not my responsibility to do that unless I put myself in a position where it becomes my responsibility (becoming a teacher for example). Also true. I would even disagree that it is my responsibility to get involved in a child being locked in a hot car, in that the law should have no right to force me to get involved, either by actively coercing me by saying I have to, or passively coercing me by charging me with negligence for not doing so. Well, that's disputable, but it would be a general ethics dispute, which I think we might want to avoid, at least on list. And the state certainly has no right whatsoever to force me to subsidize parents by spreading the cost of a device across every car sold that will remind them that they had sex last year. I find it galling enough that as a non parent my tax dollars are being spent on subsidized day care or school taxes. Point taken. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
I don't believe buckling up should be mandatory, any more than wearing cycling helmets should be mandatory. I also think it should be legal for adults to use class A drugs if they want to. In principle, I'm with you on all three points. However, there's also the cost to society of handling the results of people's careless choices. If, say, cyclists not wearing helmets results in lots of emergency room capacity being taken up by them, thus reducing the available capacity for handling other patients, then society may have a right to demand that they start wearing those helmets. as I replied earlier, society is going to have to make some pretty drastic decisions if they adopt that line of thinking. It would need to legislate against all kinds of self-imposed risk. Taking cycle helmets as an example, more pedestrians and motorists than cyclists die of head injuries so you'd have to mandate helmet wearing for both those groups too. You'd need to ban things like skiing and motorcycling, rugby, Saturday night fighting, etc. etc. The approach you suggest leads to absurd consequences which would be unacceptable in any right-thinking society. The only reasonable approach to this in a society like ours, with socialized medicine, is to accept that people have a right to take part in risky activities and factor it into the cost of providing the healthcare. Furthermore these are not necessarily careless choices, as you put it. I have given a lot of thought to the question of wearing a cycling helmet and have chosen not to. Other people give careful thought to going rock-climbing, parachuting and crossing the road without wearing safety gear, eating butter and McDonalds burgers, and after careful thought they choose to undertake these risk-filled activities. It's part of being a human and living in a civilised society. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 7:41 AM, eckinator wrote: 2010/5/31 William Robb: So, you say, injecting heroin (provided it is injected) is fine as long as it is done behind doors alone? Isn't it a bit shallow perspective? Actually Boris, if, as a society we said yes, it is OK, and then treated the fallout as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue, both society and the drug user would be better off. Germany treats it as such an issue. It is illegal to own, sell and use but if you do you get a free Methadone therapy. The results are quite good. No idea about figures though, as in is the social cost lower or higher. But it is certainly not OK to say it is OK, there are just too many implications. It is OK to say yes we will deal with it openly which is one way I can read William's statement but saying it is OK raises issues as to prevention, education, etc. So yay to OK we deal with it as a fact but NAY to we outright allow it Not to mention there goes your 10 bucks... I'm very much a proponent of educating people regarding the consequences of actions they might take, but not of intervening if their actions don't stand much chance of only harming them. My wording would have been better if I had said that society would be better off if we decriminalized heroin use (which is not the same as saying it is OK), and then treating the fallout as a health issue. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 4:45 PM, William Robb wrote: So Boris, how is forcing me to spend an extra couple of hundred dollars or so on a new vehicle for a baby seat monitor that will never be used going to protect me from someone else's stupidity? How is someone doing a shake and bake on their infant by locking them in a car going to harm me personally? Well, I am not sure your car has it, but my sure does - it is called ISOFix and it is a set of anchors (for lack of better word) that are used in order to extra securely attach a child seat... Suppose, sir William that you have only a family of two, which as far as I remember is the case for you. Now, tell me does it really help you to have 2 air bags for special protection of rear seat occupants??? I am thinking that those air bags are way more expensive than the above monitor. Yet, I don't recall hearing much protest from you or anyone else on this. When people toss numbers around like $10.00/ vehicle, they are blowing smoke out their ass. When our government mandated daytime headlight use, and forced manufacturers to put a device into vehicles that forced the headlights on whenever the car was put in gear, it may have only been a $10.00 component, but the cost to the consumer was a couple of hundred dollars per car according to the Canadian Automobile Association at the time the legislation was passed. I agree. Bob W indicated that he wouldn't mind if it were an option. However, I would add to Bob W's agreement a requirement of my own that such a system would be available from any car manufacturer as an extra cost option. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Bob W writes: > Now, the classic starting point for liberalism is that you are free to > do whatever you want, provided you don't infringe the right of other > people to do the same. With regard to my previous comment about taking up emergency room capacity: the decision that needs to be made is whether a specific choice, such as not wearing a seat belt in you car, has sufficient repercussions that it in fact unduly infringes on others' rights to, say, walk on the sidewalk without wearing a helmet. -tih -- SIGTHTBABW - a signal sent from Unix to its programmers at random intervals to make them remember that There Has To Be A Better Way --Erik Naggum -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 4:59 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: By saying that parents have to make minute-by-minute decisions you actually assign quite a lot to the parents. Modern society goes very long way to make one's life easier, so to say. And here you are asking parents to make minute-by-minute decisions... I don't think it is too liberal, you know. Life is about making minute by minute decisions. Get behind the wheel of a car and make the wrong decision (or no decision) while traveling 120KPH on a freeway and see where you end up. It's part of what we call taking responsibility for your chosen activity. If two people are going to engage in unprotected sex, they stand a good chance of becoming parents (presuming heterosexual activity). This puts the onus on those people to make minute by minute decisions for the life they have created, be it deciding who is going to do the 2:00 AM feeding to who is going to change the diapers at 3:00, to who is going to drop the kid off at the daycare. If they have a concern about not being able to make a correct decision in regard to the latter, then they should either have used birth control or perhaps look into buying some sort of monitoring device that will remind them that they have a kid in a car seat when they exit the vehicle. The point is, that the onus is on the parent to look after their child in a way that is consistent with ensuring that child grows up to adulthood and becomes a contributing member of society. It's not my responsibility to do that unless I put myself in a position where it becomes my responsibility (becoming a teacher for example). I would even disagree that it is my responsibility to get involved in a child being locked in a hot car, in that the law should have no right to force me to get involved, either by actively coercing me by saying I have to, or passively coercing me by charging me with negligence for not doing so. And the state certainly has no right whatsoever to force me to subsidize parents by spreading the cost of a device across every car sold that will remind them that they had sex last year. I find it galling enough that as a non parent my tax dollars are being spent on subsidized day care or school taxes. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Bob W writes: > I don't believe buckling up should be mandatory, any more than wearing > cycling helmets should be mandatory. I also think it should be legal > for adults to use class A drugs if they want to. In principle, I'm with you on all three points. However, there's also the cost to society of handling the results of people's careless choices. If, say, cyclists not wearing helmets results in lots of emergency room capacity being taken up by them, thus reducing the available capacity for handling other patients, then society may have a right to demand that they start wearing those helmets. -tih -- SIGTHTBABW - a signal sent from Unix to its programmers at random intervals to make them remember that There Has To Be A Better Way --Erik Naggum -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
[...] I know. I was kidding. Triage suggested it. And the greater benefit for the greater number is a good guiding principle. But some applications of it are ugly. it's a terrible guiding principle - it inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 4:13 AM, Bob W wrote: you might just as well herd all the kids into state-run boarding schools where they will, no doubt, be much safer... Canada tried that with a portion of it's population. If you are curious, Google "residential schools" (you many have to add Canada to that if Google practices geographic centralism. We found it to be a very stupid and extremely damaging and expensive waste of human life. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 2:14 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Bob, it is not black/white scenario like you seem to be trying to paint it. I am thinking that "self-imposed" is the keyword here. If a state can protect you from somebody *else's* stupidity (because, pardon my bluntness, you're not omniscient or omnipotent) and do so for $10 per car or $10 per motorcycle, they might as well go on and do it. So Boris, how is forcing me to spend an extra couple of hundred dollars or so on a new vehicle for a baby seat monitor that will never be used going to protect me from someone else's stupidity? How is someone doing a shake and bake on their infant by locking them in a car going to harm me personally? When people toss numbers around like $10.00/ vehicle, they are blowing smoke out their ass. When our government mandated daytime headlight use, and forced manufacturers to put a device into vehicles that forced the headlights on whenever the car was put in gear, it may have only been a $10.00 component, but the cost to the consumer was a couple of hundred dollars per car according to the Canadian Automobile Association at the time the legislation was passed. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 William Robb : >> >> So, you say, injecting heroin (provided it is injected) is fine as long >> as it is done behind doors alone? Isn't it a bit shallow perspective? > > Actually Boris, if, as a society we said yes, it is OK, and then treated the > fallout as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue, both society > and the drug user would be better off. Germany treats it as such an issue. It is illegal to own, sell and use but if you do you get a free Methadone therapy. The results are quite good. No idea about figures though, as in is the social cost lower or higher. But it is certainly not OK to say it is OK, there are just too many implications. It is OK to say yes we will deal with it openly which is one way I can read William's statement but saying it is OK raises issues as to prevention, education, etc. So yay to OK we deal with it as a fact but NAY to we outright allow it Not to mention there goes your 10 bucks... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 31/05/2010 2:12 AM, Boris Lieberman wrote: So, you say, injecting heroin (provided it is injected) is fine as long as it is done behind doors alone? Isn't it a bit shallow perspective? Actually Boris, if, as a society we said yes, it is OK, and then treated the fallout as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue, both society and the drug user would be better off. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 P N Stenquist : > > Wrong. The issue will face a war of words in Washington. In fact, it has > already begun. Great =) ...easily said from my side of the pond... > Doug doesn't censor the list. Members are free to ignore a thread if they so > choose. I know. I was kidding. Triage suggested it. And the greater benefit for the greater number is a good guiding principle. But some applications of it are ugly. > For the most part, I have found the discussion quite civil. Totally. And impressively fact-focused. And hopefully a wake-up call for some. Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 31, 2010, at 7:05 AM, eckinator wrote: 2010/5/31 Larry Colen : I believe that hospitals call it "triage". field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list? Wrong. The issue will face a war of words in Washington. In fact, it has already begun. Doug doesn't censor the list. Members are free to ignore a thread if they so choose. For the most part, I have found the discussion quite civil. Paul -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 Boris Liberman : > > Naturally, under these conditions the only thing that can happen if we > continue this talk is more grinding and eventual halt at a dead end. Keep grinding guys but don't forget the bumping =) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 2:23 PM, eckinator wrote: 2010/5/31 Bob W: look at the linked article again Bob, please - it states clearly that the cause can be beyond conscious control because it all happens in the lizard portion of your brain. you wouldn't trust your gecko to look after your kids either, would you? liberal or not, I mean come on now! (trying to make light of the controversy, the thread seems to be slowly grinding to a halt at a dead end) Ecke, I am not sure Bob can convince me as I am also pretty stubborn. Neither it would seem I could convince him. I am sure however that he understands me and I hope I understand Bob's point of view well enough. Naturally, under these conditions the only thing that can happen if we continue this talk is more grinding and eventual halt at a dead end. :-) Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 2:07 PM, Bob W wrote: Modern society goes very long way to make one's life easier, so to say. And here you are asking parents to make minute-by-minute decisions... I don't think it is too liberal, you know. come off it, Boris. If the parents don't make those decisions, who does? Are you seriously telling me that you would grant to someone else the right to take minute-by-minute decisions about your children? Who? Your local catholic priest? The mayor of your town? Your corrupt MP? A social worker you've never seen before and will never see again? The car park attendant at your supermarket? Bob, I am Jewish of Eastern European descent. It means (as if you did not know that ;-) ) that worrying is something that is built-in in me way below the lizard brain, speaking in terms that Ecke used. However I am thinking that we are far enough off the original track here. May be you and I do need to meet anyway and as a matter of truly friendly exchange have a little chat about this and other things. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 Bob W : > > come off it, Boris. If the parents don't make those decisions, who does? Are > you seriously telling me that you would grant to someone else the right to > take minute-by-minute decisions about your children? Who? Your local > catholic priest? The mayor of your town? Your corrupt MP? A social worker > you've never seen before and will never see again? The car park attendant at > your supermarket? look at the linked article again Bob, please - it states clearly that the cause can be beyond conscious control because it all happens in the lizard portion of your brain. you wouldn't trust your gecko to look after your kids either, would you? liberal or not, I mean come on now! (trying to make light of the controversy, the thread seems to be slowly grinding to a halt at a dead end) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
By saying that parents have to make minute-by-minute decisions you actually assign quite a lot to the parents. ? That's what being a parent is! Modern society goes very long way to make one's life easier, so to say. And here you are asking parents to make minute-by-minute decisions... I don't think it is too liberal, you know. come off it, Boris. If the parents don't make those decisions, who does? Are you seriously telling me that you would grant to someone else the right to take minute-by-minute decisions about your children? Who? Your local catholic priest? The mayor of your town? Your corrupt MP? A social worker you've never seen before and will never see again? The car park attendant at your supermarket? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
2010/5/31 Larry Colen : > > I believe that hospitals call it "triage". field hospitals, yes. the only war this issue is possibly facing is a flame war. doug, can you implement post/thread triage on the list? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 1:13 PM, Bob W wrote: yes, sure, but that's changing the terms of the discussion. So far the discussion has been about whether the state has a right to force the individual to something 'for his own good'. I say it doesn't. It could be that you and I had a discussion on close but different sets of terms here. I see your point now. I say that the State *may have* a right to force (or very strongly recommend) something to the individual if it prevents severe harm to individual's health or may be even their death. Now, the classic starting point for liberalism is that you are free to do whatever you want, provided you don't infringe the right of other people to do the same. The state is an institution that we have established to guarantee that principle. Therefore it does have to try and protect me from other people's stupidity in as much as that stupidity might prevent me from going about my lawful business. That's why we enforce red traffic lights, and have gun laws and such like. At the same time, it doesn't absolve me from the responsibility to look after myself. That I can agree with. Sans the attribution of this principle to liberalism. It is more "live and let live" kind of reasoning to me. Children are also protected by the state but they are in a special position because unlike normal adults they are not fully autonomous members of society yet. They are under the stewardship of their parents and their parents have the first responsibility for their well-being. The parents have to make the minute-by-minute decisions about what is best for the child, including whether or not it is safe to leave them in the back of a car. Once you start leaving that sort of decision to other people, particularly the state, you might just as well herd all the kids into state-run boarding schools where they will, no doubt, be much safer... Bob By saying that parents have to make minute-by-minute decisions you actually assign quite a lot to the parents. Modern society goes very long way to make one's life easier, so to say. And here you are asking parents to make minute-by-minute decisions... I don't think it is too liberal, you know. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 30, 2010, at 8:03 PM, Ken Waller wrote: > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "Bob W" > Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars > > y're not taking into account that the budget is limited so you have to spend > the money on the project with the best business case. >> >> In other words, if you're going to spend that money you should spend it on >> the project with the biggest return. Especially if you're using taxpayers' >> money. > > I had a boss that use to call this the 'silver bullet approach'. He couldn't > afford to let us spend all the available capitol on a variety of projects, he > wanted us imagine we were in a battle and he could only give us one bullet - > we had to use it very wisely. I believe that hospitals call it "triage". > -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On May 30, 2010, at 11:56 PM, Ken Waller wrote: > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist" > > Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars > >> On May 30, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Ken Waller wrote: >>> >>> Kenneth Waller >>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller >>> >>> ----- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist" >>> >>> Subject: Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars >>>> >>>> On May 30, 2010, at 7:47 AM, John Sessoms wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not always forgetfulness - sometimes just plain ignorance. >>>> >>>> The hyperthermia deaths are sometimes the result of ignorance. But the >>>> majority are inadvertently caused by otherwise responsible parents. >>> >>> Ahem Paul I would change that to 'irresponsible parents'. Having >>> children is among other things, a responsibiity. >>> > >> You could change that, but the facts wouldn't support you. Most of those who >> have inadvertently forgotten an infant have otherwise very clean records. >> Distraction and the stresses of daily life can cause even the best of men >> and women to fail from time to time. The record supports that. Yes, it seems >> like its impossible to forget one's child, but apparently it's not. > > I didn't say they weren't fine upstanding members of the community, but that > they were unwilling to be responsible for their actions, they left their > child in the car, I didn't. > Everyone makes mistakes, it how we deal with them that is the issue here. > I don't know of anyone who has caused the death of their child or someone else's and has been unwilling to take responsibility for the outcome. Some have even been incarcerated, although not many. The Post article that preceded mine deals with that in depth. It's independent safety advocates who have been pushing for a warning device. As I said, I take no position on the issue. Paul >> >> Paul > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
[...] in that case you're going to have to legislate to remove all possible self-imposed risk from the world. You're going to have to make smoking illegal, you're going to have to make sunbathing for longer than 30 minutes a day illegal, crossing the road while the green man is flashing, walking the streets without wearing a helmet,... B Bob, it is not black/white scenario like you seem to be trying to paint it. I am thinking that "self-imposed" is the keyword here. If a state can protect you from somebody *else's* stupidity (because, pardon my bluntness, you're not omniscient or omnipotent) and do so for $10 per car or $10 per motorcycle, they might as well go on and do it. yes, sure, but that's changing the terms of the discussion. So far the discussion has been about whether the state has a right to force the individual to something 'for his own good'. I say it doesn't. Now, the classic starting point for liberalism is that you are free to do whatever you want, provided you don't infringe the right of other people to do the same. The state is an institution that we have established to guarantee that principle. Therefore it does have to try and protect me from other people's stupidity in as much as that stupidity might prevent me from going about my lawful business. That's why we enforce red traffic lights, and have gun laws and such like. At the same time, it doesn't absolve me from the responsibility to look after myself. Children are also protected by the state but they are in a special position because unlike normal adults they are not fully autonomous members of society yet. They are under the stewardship of their parents and their parents have the first responsibility for their well-being. The parents have to make the minute-by-minute decisions about what is best for the child, including whether or not it is safe to leave them in the back of a car. Once you start leaving that sort of decision to other people, particularly the state, you might just as well herd all the kids into state-run boarding schools where they will, no doubt, be much safer... Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 12:45 PM, Bob W wrote: broadly speaking it is the parents' responsibility to make sure that their children grow up. However the rest of us as individuals and the state itself have a duty to intervene in certain cases where any person, not just a child, is in clear and present danger. For example, if we see a child suffering in the back of a car or a swimmer being swept away by the current. Good. So, there is a minimal or may be even certain degree of mutual help and cooperation. But that's a long way from saying the state should have an influence on such things. Once you let the state, or other people, make your decisions for you, you have effectively given up your freedom, and responsibility, as an adult to make your own decisions. You might think that because the state in this case would make the same decision as you that nothing is lost. However, you would have established the principle and they will soon make decisions that you do not agree with, and where does that leave you? Well, Bob, you and I are not sitting in the pub drinking each a glass of our favorite drink (which in itself is a big drawback), so that I don't think we have the bandwidth to make all the steps from A to B, so to say. What you say is theoretically right. However I fail to see how seat belt or that device that we are discussing in this specific thread take away my freedoms or make me less adult. In fact, cell phone makes me less adult by a good measure and take great deal of my freedoms away, but not the seat belt. Or at least I don't see how it may do so. Furthermore, once you have decided that someone else can make your decisions for you about the upbringing of your child, who is that someone going to be? Who are you going to trust to make your decisions for you? Bob, not leaving my child in a car has nothing to do with their upbringing. Or may be I miss a logical connection/step here? The government, medical profession etc. should provide information about the effects of these activities on our health and let us decide what we want to do about it, provided we're only affecting ourselves. So, you say, injecting heroin (provided it is injected) is fine as long as it is done behind doors alone? Isn't it a bit shallow perspective? I didn't say it should be done alone and behind closed doors, or that it should necessarily be injected. I see no reason at all why it shouldn't be done on public licensed premises (opium dens, effectively) as well, just as we drink at home and in pubs and just as in some places people go to coffee shops to smoke grass. Leper hospitals for leprous?! Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
Two questions. 1. What is it "class A drugs"? I am unfamiliar with drugs classification. stuff like heroin. 2. Consider the same situation from the child perspective. Once born in a state of A, B or C, they become fully fledged citizens of that state, right? Then, does it mean that mere right and privilege of a child to live their life out in full is in fact dependent on degree of responsibility of their parents? I am thinking that it is rather tricky question to answer in a simple clean cut manner. I also think that it is in the direct interest of a state to increase the likelihood of any child growing up to be a full adult. Therefore, as such the state might and probably should endeavor to have an influence on certain things. broadly speaking it is the parents' responsibility to make sure that their children grow up. However the rest of us as individuals and the state itself have a duty to intervene in certain cases where any person, not just a child, is in clear and present danger. For example, if we see a child suffering in the back of a car or a swimmer being swept away by the current. But that's a long way from saying the state should have an influence on such things. Once you let the state, or other people, make your decisions for you, you have effectively given up your freedom, and responsibility, as an adult to make your own decisions. You might think that because the state in this case would make the same decision as you that nothing is lost. However, you would have established the principle and they will soon make decisions that you do not agree with, and where does that leave you? Furthermore, once you have decided that someone else can make your decisions for you about the upbringing of your child, who is that someone going to be? Who are you going to trust to make your decisions for you? The government, medical profession etc. should provide information about the effects of these activities on our health and let us decide what we want to do about it, provided we're only affecting ourselves. So, you say, injecting heroin (provided it is injected) is fine as long as it is done behind doors alone? Isn't it a bit shallow perspective? I didn't say it should be done alone and behind closed doors, or that it should necessarily be injected. I see no reason at all why it shouldn't be done on public licensed premises (opium dens, effectively) as well, just as we drink at home and in pubs and just as in some places people go to coffee shops to smoke grass. This is the classic liberal position on such matters. Pleasure to make an acquaintance. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/30/2010 8:44 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: Boris There might be some merit to that. Some studies, (I wish I had a link but a Google search will probably turn up a bunch pro and con), have show that in many cases intersections are safer with fewer lights, and signs. Drivers are more cautious entering, they don't have a false sense of security. Well, yes, I was surprised by some "unmanaged" crossings around Stanford (I think it was Stanford that I visited some years ago). You will also be surprised that very often if a busy crossing lights break in my area, it is usually major time loss for commuters. However I'll answer on point. Your example is a straw man. The "benefit" from street lights and other traffic control improvements accrue to all drivers and most pedestrians, pretty much all of society, pretty much directly. Well, I've read some arguments or opinions against that in other messages in this thread, but /I/ agree with you - the benefit is there. The only thing everyone gains from this is a good feeling, that we've /done/ /something/. Which is still likely to a.) not solve the problem, I believe in the idiocy of dedicated idiots, and b.) cause more had wringing when it doesn't work. I know everyone can be and Idiot about something sometimes. Hell I'm an idiot more than most, (someday I'll tell the story of how I ran over my own dog. He survived...), but I don't expect society to save me from my idiocy, because it can't! Well, Peter, you just called an idiot my wife who admitted to me yesterday (we talked about this thread a bit) that since she is sitting next to me and our younger is sitting alone on the back sit, she caught herself once or twice that she was forgetting about Anat. I am thinking that you should at least reconsider and at most apologize. Peter, consider very simple and likely scenario. An alone mother of two kids must get one kid to the hospital. And she cannot leave the other child at home. She takes that child with them and under pressure and stress forgets that poor child in the car. I see no "dedicated idiocy" here. I see a tragic possibility for which I would gladly pay $10 of my money every year to have it avoided across my country. Admittedly, it'll give me a /good feeling/ that you pointed out, but it as well may save some _innocent_ lives... ... But we have to recognize that life is dangerous. We cannot guarantee perfect safety, to all people at all times. We can't afford it either financially or more importantly for the sake of the individual's spirit. To even attempt to do so is a fools errand. Somebody's got to say stop somewhere. That's right. But you can give it a proper benefit of a doubt, spend your time considering and not dismiss any such offer outright just because. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/31/2010 6:06 AM, Ken Waller wrote: Boris, to me the issue is that this is an issue that doesn't affect a great many people. Only those that, for what ever reason, leave their children in their vehicle. And for that the entire society should be penalized ? I am thinking your wording is inexact. Let me try to rephrase in a way I see it. "Only those that, for whatever reason, *might* leave their children in their vehicle"... Because not many people run red lights daily, only few. But you cannot have road patrols just for them, you have them for everybody. Boris P.S. I am thinking that the entire society is penalized much more by other things, say overgrown bureaucratic system than by $10 extra for every vehicle. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/30/2010 11:54 PM, paul stenquist wrote: I didn't say that the fact that much of the cost goes back into the economy is a reason to do this. I just pointed out, correctly, that the cost per device times the number of cars isn't the true cost to society. And I'm not necessarily in favor of regulation. Never have been. But I'm in favor of truth and accuracy. Paul I might as well go a step further and maintain that none of us can actually produce a accurate and truthful assessment of financial/economic aspect of this issue, unless we have some professional economist among us. I for one, wouldn't dare say that mere multiplication of number of cars however approximate it be by the cost of this device is an accurate figure. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/30/2010 9:00 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: It shouldn't be. But I'm a libertarian, if you want to commit suicide it's none of my concern, as long as you don't take unwilling others with you. That's right. But we're discussing something that I can have no influence onto. Being a child, especially a toddler, I cannot properly call my dad's or my mom's attention that they (not me, see?!) left me in the car under the scorching sun. The state gets to make decisions for you and eventually you end in the position where everything not prohibited is requited. Hell even God allows for free will. There is a very interesting piece written by Stanislaw Lem on the subject. I was thinking about this very notion the other day, Peter. Consider "do not steal" commandment. Stealing is bad, but by yours and Bob W's logic it should be abolished. As a grown up adult it is my responsibility to keep my belongings in a way that they don't get stolen. And I cannot project my rightfulness or decency onto others. If they want to steal, let them. The next step is of course getting rid of IRS or whatever it is called in your country. You don't have to answer to the above, unless you want to. But I pray you spend a moment and think about it a bit. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/30/2010 5:13 PM, Bob W wrote: [...] out to be just too damn dumb, there will always be someone else suffering the consequences with you or for you and this is exactly where that kind of thinking becomes terminally selfish cheers ecke in that case you're going to have to legislate to remove all possible self-imposed risk from the world. You're going to have to make smoking illegal, you're going to have to make sunbathing for longer than 30 minutes a day illegal, crossing the road while the green man is flashing, walking the streets without wearing a helmet,... B Bob, it is not black/white scenario like you seem to be trying to paint it. I am thinking that "self-imposed" is the keyword here. If a state can protect you from somebody *else's* stupidity (because, pardon my bluntness, you're not omniscient or omnipotent) and do so for $10 per car or $10 per motorcycle, they might as well go on and do it. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Kids are Dying in Cars
On 5/30/2010 5:02 PM, Bob W wrote: Exactly so. You're consistent in your perspective. That's excellent. ... I also think it should be legal for adults to use class A drugs if they want to. Adults are responsible for their own safety; parents and relatives are responsible for the safety of children, not the government or groups of well-meaning do-gooders. Two questions. 1. What is it "class A drugs"? I am unfamiliar with drugs classification. 2. Consider the same situation from the child perspective. Once born in a state of A, B or C, they become fully fledged citizens of that state, right? Then, does it mean that mere right and privilege of a child to live their life out in full is in fact dependent on degree of responsibility of their parents? I am thinking that it is rather tricky question to answer in a simple clean cut manner. I also think that it is in the direct interest of a state to increase the likelihood of any child growing up to be a full adult. Therefore, as such the state might and probably should endeavor to have an influence on certain things. The government, medical profession etc. should provide information about the effects of these activities on our health and let us decide what we want to do about it, provided we're only affecting ourselves. So, you say, injecting heroin (provided it is injected) is fine as long as it is done behind doors alone? Isn't it a bit shallow perspective? This is the classic liberal position on such matters. Pleasure to make an acquaintance. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
