Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
No William I'm not what you describe in any way but since you seems to resort to the same type of argument JCO usually uses when he's angry I suppose you have nothing interesting to say aynmore. Maybe you hsould use aome other OSes and see for yourself. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
That's not the way they work. Adobe has always been very good on support. Godfrey Fine, I guess they deserve I make confidence in them. If the money follows, I will buy Lightroom. PS an entirely different budget so I will see later. Maybe PSE if limitations aren't too annoying. Thanks for you advices Godfrey. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Thibouille wrote: No William I'm not what you describe in any way but since you seems to resort to the same type of argument JCO usually uses when he's angry I suppose you have nothing interesting to say aynmore. Maybe you hsould use aome other OSes and see for yourself. I've used/administered pretty much every UNIX/Linux and Windows OS versions. I stay away from the OS bashing in every way, because every OS is useful for certain applications. My experience with MacOS is limited but growing. I can see where Mac zealots get their ideas, however I really don't see much difference in the way it works from a user point of view and the way desktop Windows or Linux works. It's simply a matter of getting used to an interface. Behind the scenes, from a systems administrator's position (my job), they differ in huge ways but it really is just a matter of getting used to them. As for stability/bugs/security, I've had windows systems that never crashed and Solaris boxes that wouldn't stay up for a week at a time without a kernel panic. I've never had a virus or spyware on a windows box and I've had linux systems that couldn't run an app to save their lives without major kernel tweaking. Of course, I've had remarkably stable Linux, Solaris and HPUX systems as well (those FAR outnumber the unstable ones (I administer over 1000 Linux, Solaris and HPUX servers; several have uptimes greater than my time at the company which frightens me a little). Any system is as good as you make it or as stable as the applications you run. Finally, my company is allowing me to explore open-source alternatives to the current bloated database apps we run and I'm finding that resources are less taxed and systems more stable for it. Plus the community support is far greater and fixes to common issues are easier to find and more quickly discovered. For my own personal gain, more OSs mean more skills and better opportunities for my career. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I've used/administered pretty much every UNIX/Linux and Windows OS versions. I stay away from the OS bashing in every way, because every OS is useful for certain applications. My experience with MacOS is limited but growing. I can see where Mac zealots get their ideas, however I really don't see much difference in the way it works from a user point of view and the way desktop Windows or Linux works. It's simply a matter of getting used to an interface. Behind the scenes, from a systems administrator's position (my job), they differ in huge ways but it really is just a matter of getting used to them. Yeah that's what I think (think because although I've programming studies, I've never been in a position allowing me do other than guessing on that point. As for stability/bugs/security, I've had windows systems that never crashed and Solaris boxes that wouldn't stay up for a week at a time without a kernel panic. I've never had a virus or spyware on a windows box and I've had linux systems that couldn't run an app to save their lives without major kernel tweaking. Of course, I've had remarkably stable Linux, Solaris and HPUX systems as well (those FAR outnumber the unstable ones (I administer over 1000 Linux, Solaris and HPUX servers; several have uptimes greater than my time at the company which frightens me a little). Any system is as good as you make it or as stable as the applications you run. Finally, my company is allowing me to explore open-source alternatives to the current bloated database apps we run and I'm finding that resources are less taxed and systems more stable for it. Plus the community support is far greater and fixes to common issues are easier to find and more quickly discovered. I'm not suprised at all. But the only system I used (and still use) which becomes slower not installing a single software is Windows. Just day to day use. I never saw that with other OSes. That doesn't mean Windows is full of s*** and others are wonderful. I don't like Windows much but I reckon for a couple reasons it is my only way of having a simple life not having to reboot an other OS 3 times a day. But because I use a product doens't mean all is perfect but it seems some think so. For my own personal gain, more OSs mean more skills and better opportunities for my career. I understand that pretty well :) -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I concur with Adam. G On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Adam Maas wrote: Except the plugin is different(I suspect you're confising plugin and camera profiles). There's a fair bit of internal differences between ACR 2 and ACR 3, and while camera profiles are common to both, actually adding the recognition portion of the code and testing it will be different (There's two parts to adding support for a camera, one is the profile and the other is to modify the file type recognition, the latter is the issue). There's no economic justification for Adobe to continue to support long-discontinued software like Photoshop CS and Elements 2, neither of which has been available from Adobe for 2 years. And since they'd have to setup a group to QC the updates, this is a cost issue where Adobe will have no income to justify the costs. -Adam Paul Stenquist wrote: On this one, I suspect there's a bit of profit motive involved. The new camera specs and their RAW file parameters are identical whether it's ACR 3 or ACR 2. If you write a plug-in for one, I'm sure it's easy to transport it to the other. I use both a lot. ACR 3 adds a few features. In every other way, they're identical. But I'm not complaining. Profit is important. Keeps our favorite software provider in business. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Oh my... Hopefully I will not have to wait too long for the Phase One LE upgrade (v. 3.7.7), which will support Pentax K10D RAW files. This upgrade is due March 2007. (I just love Phase One LE :-) Regards Jens Bladt Nytarkort / Greeting Card: http://www.jensbladt.dk/godtnytaar2007/lydshow.html http://www.jensbladt.dk +45 56 63 77 11 +45 23 43 85 77 Skype: jensbladt248 -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af Boris Liberman Sendt: 9. februar 2007 20:36 Til: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Emne: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Jens, on Feb 27th the Beta version shall expire. Jens Bladt wrote: Boris, why don't yiou just use the free Beta version? I do. Regards Jens Bladt Nytarkort / Greeting Card: http://www.jensbladt.dk/godtnytaar2007/lydshow.html http://www.jensbladt.dk +45 56 63 77 11 +45 23 43 85 77 Skype: jensbladt248 -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af Boris Liberman Sendt: 7. februar 2007 08:47 Til: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Emne: Trying to buy the LightRoom Hello there. Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... *Deep sigh* Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 02/06/2007 17:52 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.32/677 - Release Date: 02/08/2007 21:04 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.32/677 - Release Date: 02/08/2007 21:04 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date: 02/09/2007 16:06 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
From: Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/10 Sat AM 05:22:52 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom I agree with you, Bill. Though I do bash Micro$oft but XP is stable if driven properly. I think mine is like 2+ years old now and it is still there. I'm currently running 98, installed on a machine bought in the summer of that year. I upgraded to ME in 2000. I have performed two system restores after application installations went wrong. No other problems. William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Sure, I tyres are supposed to be used and wear over time. An OS/software is not supposed to, although I admit a Windows installation is good for format c: every 3 months. Ah, a professional Windows basher. A friend of mine is still running his original Win98SE install. I installed it for him in 2000, IIRC. My Win XP install ran 4 years without a hitch, and would still be running if the hardware hadn't failed. My old Pentium 2 is still in use, running Win98SE, which was a clean install in 2001. What you are complaining about is akin to complaining that the car you bought last year doesn't have as much horsepower as what they are putting under the hood this year. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Hmmm...I've upgraded computers and re-installed registered versions of XP Pro and Office 2003 on the new one without a hitch. But I'm behind a router. I wonder if the MS server sees the IP address of the router gateway and recognizes it as the registered owner. -P Christian wrote: William Robb wrote: More than enough reason to steer clear of SP2 even if you have a fully registered and paid for system. All it takes is being out of business for one day to remind you why you should hate Microsoft. I just replaced my system's OS hard drive. I installed XP onto the new one, everything was cool, until I went to install Office XP. I wasn't allowed to install it because it was registered on another (my old) system. A quick call to Microsoft's help line was all it took to straighten things out. I wasn't unhappy with the service. Same thing happened to me. For once I bought real fully licensed versions of XP and Office 2003 and installed them on my existing PC. A few days later I decided to upgrade my motherboard, CPU, RAM and hard drive. XP wouldn't update to SP2 and office wouldn't register. An easy call to MS (yes, easy and quick) resolved the issue. I almost fell on the floor because I expected a long wait and a hassle. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Paul Sorenson Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Hmmm...I've upgraded computers and re-installed registered versions of XP Pro and Office 2003 on the new one without a hitch. But I'm behind a router. I wonder if the MS server sees the IP address of the router gateway and recognizes it as the registered owner. I'm behind a router as well. I think the serial number of the drive or some such is transmitted during registration. It would make more sense from the software writers POV or else there would be nothing to stop a business from putting software onto a couple of dozen machines, all going through the same gate. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Bob, Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. when I start my notebook, XP SP1 occupies about 90MB of memory. When I had XP2 installed, windows took almost 160MB. My notebook has got just 256MB RAM. Need I say any more? WRT security: I'm not running any anti-virus or anti-spyware or anti-whatever software, just a copy of Kerio Personal Firewall and had zero problems so far. Actually I hate those anti- programs, because they are IMO even worse than actual malware as they slow down your computer constantly. And BTW my other computer is a Mac, of course. :-) Cheers, Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
So is SP2 now. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Øsleby Sent: 09 February 2007 01:21 To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom I'll answer for Boris. Because SP1 is a legacy operating system. Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob W Sent: 8. februar 2007 21:20 To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Because IMO anyone should be able to change PC without trouble. The problem is you often need/get (depends) another OS when you buy another PC. Of course you can scrap Vista and install XP but in 2 years? Of course now the stories are about XP - Vista but the problem exists for long. Wanna try installing 95/98/NT on a modern PC so you can use your old PS on it? Good luck ! That is the problem I'm pointing at. Other than that, I perfectly agree that nobody forces you (or anbody) to change your OS just because it is new. You're perfectly right. But after a time there are compatibility problems and I don't think that running OSes/old progs in Virtual machines should be considered reasonable in this case. I don't think it is should be considered normal to get free upgrades on product. I think that, for the price of a software like PS, you should at least be sure that if Vista or any other OS comes out, you'll get any sort of update letting you use your PS on the new OS. Iask for nothing else. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: What advantage does running a legacy operating system with poor security get you? I think SP1 didn't kill your system if you are running an unregistered version of XP, and SP2 does a better check and disables it if it thinks it is pirated. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Indeed, M$ implemented a better check against pirates but sp2 also inviolves some compatibility problems with a couple softwares, not many but some which *may* be critical for some. Here's an example: My parents have/had (depends on their mind) the habits of using a software which is Weihgt Watrcher's something (don't know the exact name in English) which stubbornely refuses to run under SP2. It shows in fact a bug running Authorware (on which it is based) from Macromedia (I think... RIP) and the runtime tells you to go to hell. It works perfectly well under XP RTM and XP SP1. Seems stupid but for them, it is defenitely critical and so I never updated their computer to SP2. Keep in mind you can uninstall it (SP2 I mean), anyway but you should be careful, that's all. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom I don't think it is should be considered normal to get free upgrades on product. I think that, for the price of a software like PS, you should at least be sure that if Vista or any other OS comes out, you'll get any sort of update letting you use your PS on the new OS. Iask for nothing else. I'll ask Nissan for my free upgrade from my 2004 Titan to a 2007 Titan. I'll let you know how loudly they laugh at me. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On Feb 9, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Thibouille wrote: ... I don't think it is should be considered normal to get free upgrades on product. I think that, for the price of a software like PS, you should at least be sure that if Vista or any other OS comes out, you'll get any sort of update letting you use your PS on the new OS. I ask for nothing else. It's quite a tall order, nonetheless. I know nothing of how Microsoft does their OS development testing, but I know that at Apple we always tested a huge list of existing applications extensively in development with new OS revisions to ensure the greatest amount of upward compatibility possible. There are occasions, however, where the OS development team has to make a decision as to whether to patch around an application's particular use of OS services (whether in error or because the OS service behavior had to change for one reason or another) or simply let the application break and tell the vendor to update it. Things that were allowed to break were never taken lightly. Then it's up to the vendor to take on the burden of fixing their problem and putting out an update. MOST of the time, such updates are small things and the vendor absorbs the cost, provides a free incremental update (like PS CS2 going from v9.0 to v9.0.2) but sometimes, if the amount of work required is substantial, they have no choice but to incorporate the fix into a paid update (like going from PS CS2 to PS CS3) and places a backwards compatibility limit on that version of the application to OS versioning. There are also questions of implementation dependence ... For instance, Lightroom v4.1 beta and v1.0 release is dependent upon some OS services that were first released on Mac OS X in v10.4.2. So you cannot install it on Mac OS X v10.3.9 ... and it is neither Apple's responsibility nor Adobe's responsibility to compensate you for an update as the software didn't exist in the v10.3.9 lifespan. It's up to you to decide whether the application is worth the expense of updating your system as well as purchase the software package. If you choose not to, and decide to use other software even if this package is better suited to your needs, that's your option. I see no reason to complain about it, or make defamatory remarks about Adobe's pricing. Adobe's products are some of the best supported in the industry, on either OS platform. I have never felt like I was paying too much given the level of excellent support I get whenever I have a question. They're not cheap but they're worth it to me. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
C'mon, it is just about being sure that if the tires Nissan used when the car came out or phased out you'll be able to buy others which will let you use your car normally, nothing else. 2007/2/9, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom I don't think it is should be considered normal to get free upgrades on product. I think that, for the price of a software like PS, you should at least be sure that if Vista or any other OS comes out, you'll get any sort of update letting you use your PS on the new OS. Iask for nothing else. I'll ask Nissan for my free upgrade from my 2004 Titan to a 2007 Titan. I'll let you know how loudly they laugh at me. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
More than enough reason to steer clear of SP2 even if you have a fully registered and paid for system. All it takes is being out of business for one day to remind you why you should hate Microsoft. Christian wrote: Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: What advantage does running a legacy operating system with poor security get you? I think SP1 didn't kill your system if you are running an unregistered version of XP, and SP2 does a better check and disables it if it thinks it is pirated. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom C'mon, it is just about being sure that if the tires Nissan used when the car came out or phased out you'll be able to buy others which will let you use your car normally, nothing else. I still wouldn't expect those tyres to be free. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom More than enough reason to steer clear of SP2 even if you have a fully registered and paid for system. All it takes is being out of business for one day to remind you why you should hate Microsoft. I just replaced my system's OS hard drive. I installed XP onto the new one, everything was cool, until I went to install Office XP. I wasn't allowed to install it because it was registered on another (my old) system. A quick call to Microsoft's help line was all it took to straighten things out. I wasn't unhappy with the service. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
You were lucky, you got a tech who knew what they were doing. William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom More than enough reason to steer clear of SP2 even if you have a fully registered and paid for system. All it takes is being out of business for one day to remind you why you should hate Microsoft. I just replaced my system's OS hard drive. I installed XP onto the new one, everything was cool, until I went to install Office XP. I wasn't allowed to install it because it was registered on another (my old) system. A quick call to Microsoft's help line was all it took to straighten things out. I wasn't unhappy with the service. William Robb -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
William Robb wrote: More than enough reason to steer clear of SP2 even if you have a fully registered and paid for system. All it takes is being out of business for one day to remind you why you should hate Microsoft. I just replaced my system's OS hard drive. I installed XP onto the new one, everything was cool, until I went to install Office XP. I wasn't allowed to install it because it was registered on another (my old) system. A quick call to Microsoft's help line was all it took to straighten things out. I wasn't unhappy with the service. Same thing happened to me. For once I bought real fully licensed versions of XP and Office 2003 and installed them on my existing PC. A few days later I decided to upgrade my motherboard, CPU, RAM and hard drive. XP wouldn't update to SP2 and office wouldn't register. An easy call to MS (yes, easy and quick) resolved the issue. I almost fell on the floor because I expected a long wait and a hassle. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Boris, why don't yiou just use the free Beta version? I do. Regards Jens Bladt Nytarkort / Greeting Card: http://www.jensbladt.dk/godtnytaar2007/lydshow.html http://www.jensbladt.dk +45 56 63 77 11 +45 23 43 85 77 Skype: jensbladt248 -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af Boris Liberman Sendt: 7. februar 2007 08:47 Til: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Emne: Trying to buy the LightRoom Hello there. Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... *Deep sigh* Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 02/06/2007 17:52 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.32/677 - Release Date: 02/08/2007 21:04 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I know nothing of how Microsoft does their OS development testing, but I know that at Apple we always tested a huge list of existing applications extensively in development with new OS revisions to ensure the greatest amount of upward compatibility possible. There are occasions, however, where the OS development team has to make a decision as to whether to patch around an application's particular use of OS services (whether in error or because the OS service behavior had to change for one reason or another) or simply let the application break and tell the vendor to update it. Things that were allowed to break were never taken lightly. I somewhat doubt M$ behaves the same. If Apple (I have no reason to doubt your words BTW) does indeed what you say then I am respectful to them. They take their responsabilities and I perfectly understand sometimes they have to make choices. Nothing against that. Then it's up to the vendor to take on the burden of fixing their problem and putting out an update. MOST of the time, such updates are small things and the vendor absorbs the cost, provides a free incremental update (like PS CS2 going from v9.0 to v9.0.2) but sometimes, if the amount of work required is substantial, they have no choice but to incorporate the fix into a paid update (like going from PS CS2 to PS CS3) and places a backwards compatibility limit on that version of the application to OS versioning. This is exactly what I'm talking about: fixes not enhanced capabilities. v9.0 - 9.02 is indded a good example. if ACR 3 is only comatiblme with CS2, OK if then still update ACR2 with new cameras. I don't expect to get new capabilities without paying for that: sure it would be nice but I'm not stupid. There are also questions of implementation dependence ... For instance, Lightroom v4.1 beta and v1.0 release is dependent upon some OS services that were first released on Mac OS X in v10.4.2. So you cannot install it on Mac OS X v10.3.9 ... and it is neither Apple's responsibility nor Adobe's responsibility to compensate you for an update as the software didn't exist in the v10.3.9 lifespan. With beta softwares, nobody is responsible for anything. Otherwise one shouldn't use beta software.period. It's up to you to decide whether the application is worth the expense of updating your system as well as purchase the software package. If you choose not to, and decide to use other software even if this package is better suited to your needs, that's your option. I see no reason to complain about it, or make defamatory remarks about Adobe's pricing. Adobe's pricing is high. I have no necessary background to claim it is prohibitive. It is overpriced *for my use*. What wanna have for this price is the certainty an expensive software like PS will work with next OS. With fixes, of course but that they will do their best to fix any compatibility issue and AFAIK there is no certainty as there is no contract they have to honour. Adobe's products are some of the best supported in the industry, on either OS platform. I have never felt like I was paying too much given the level of excellent support I get whenever I have a question. They're not cheap but they're worth it to me. I don't doubt the support provided byu either Adobe or the community of users. I imagine support is pretty good (for the price, it is normal). I wouldn't want to be in a situation like that: Imagine myself 6 months ago: I'm a normal user which means I'm not playing with beta from next OSes blabla, I buy PS CS2 and then Vista comes and I realize it is not compatible (or has quite restricted capabilities) when run under Vista. Basicaly I'm f*, I'm not? Godfrey BTW Godfrey since you seem to be pretty much used to Adobe softwares, do you think Adobe supports all their softwares the same way? I mean, is PSE well supported? I'm sure I could be satisfied with PSE * if they support it as what Adobe brand would lead me to beleive they would*. I don't ask the same support as PS CS, of course, you pay for that too. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Jens, on Feb 27th the Beta version shall expire. Jens Bladt wrote: Boris, why don't yiou just use the free Beta version? I do. Regards Jens Bladt Nytarkort / Greeting Card: http://www.jensbladt.dk/godtnytaar2007/lydshow.html http://www.jensbladt.dk +45 56 63 77 11 +45 23 43 85 77 Skype: jensbladt248 -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af Boris Liberman Sendt: 7. februar 2007 08:47 Til: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Emne: Trying to buy the LightRoom Hello there. Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... *Deep sigh* Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 02/06/2007 17:52 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.32/677 - Release Date: 02/08/2007 21:04 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On Feb 9, 2007, at 11:39 AM, Thibouille wrote: This is exactly what I'm talking about: fixes not enhanced capabilities. v9.0 - 9.02 is indded a good example. if ACR 3 is only comatiblme with CS2, OK if then still update ACR2 with new cameras. I don't expect to get new capabilities without paying for that: sure it would be nice but I'm not stupid. The Camera Raw 2 to 3 change was a major update, as Camera Raw 3 has huge changes in it that are in sync with new back-end services available only in CS2 and Bridge. They kept compatibility for version 3.x in the Basic operation mode for Photoshop Elements, which doesn't support any of Camera Raw's feature set beyond the Adjust and Detail tabs. Adding new cameras to the Camera Raw 2.x plugin would mean maintaining a second parallel development effort, which would be too costly. However, you can process the DNG files output from the combines Camera Raw and DNG Converter v3.x package with Camera Raw v2.4, so the upgrade path is there for you, without cost. ... What wanna have for this price is the certainty an expensive software like PS will work with next OS. ... Unfortunately, nothing can be guaranteed as no vendor can know for sure what will happen with future versions of an OS, any OS. The depth and extent to which fixes and patching can be effective is variable. Imagine myself 6 months ago: I'm a normal user which means I'm not playing with beta from next OSes blabla, I buy PS CS2 and then Vista comes and I realize it is not compatible (or has quite restricted capabilities) when run under Vista. Basicaly I'm f*, I'm not? If you want to upgrade from XP to Vista, well, what for? Why would you want to upgrade until you know what you're going to get from it? Using software to do your work often means balancing the cost of new, desirable features against established reliability of a working system. You pay for the desirable new things as you accept them, the price should always include the cost of whatever other side effects are created. BTW Godfrey since you seem to be pretty much used to Adobe softwares, do you think Adobe supports all their softwares the same way? I mean, is PSE well supported? I'm sure I could be satisfied with PSE * if they support it as what Adobe brand would lead me to beleive they would*. I don't ask the same support as PS CS, of course, you pay for that too. I haven't used the full suite of Adobe products, but I've gotten the same level of excellent support when using Acrobat 8 Standard that I get for Photoshop CS2. I don't belong to or purchase any of their more dedicated professional support programs. Of course, it might be that they have 10 support people to handle 100,000 PS CS2 users and 10 support people to handle 600,000 PSE users, and thus support practices for the lower priced product are more tuned to 1-to-Many support tools, which might not give quite the same warm fuzzies of the more expensive products. I'd consider that normal for low cost, high volume products vs higher cost, lower volume products. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Sure, I tyres are supposed to be used and wear over time. An OS/software is not supposed to, although I admit a Windows installation is good for format c: every 3 months. 2007/2/9, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom C'mon, it is just about being sure that if the tires Nissan used when the car came out or phased out you'll be able to buy others which will let you use your car normally, nothing else. I still wouldn't expect those tyres to be free. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
The Camera Raw 2 to 3 change was a major update, as Camera Raw 3 has huge changes in it that are in sync with new back-end services available only in CS2 and Bridge. They kept compatibility for version 3.x in the Basic operation mode for Photoshop Elements, which doesn't support any of Camera Raw's feature set beyond the Adjust and Detail tabs. Adding new cameras to the Camera Raw 2.x plugin would mean maintaining a second parallel development effort, which would be too costly. However, you can process the DNG files output from the combines Camera Raw and DNG Converter v3.x package with Camera Raw v2.4, so the upgrade path is there for you, without cost. They might have without too much trouble IMO but as long as they provide a converter for all those formats not supported by ACR before 3 to DNG so they can be imported with ACR is indeed suffcient even if not ideal. It works, you're right. It's OK. ... What wanna have for this price is the certainty an expensive software like PS will work with next OS. ... Unfortunately, nothing can be guaranteed as no vendor can know for sure what will happen with future versions of an OS, any OS. The depth and extent to which fixes and patching can be effective is variable. Imagine myself 6 months ago: I'm a normal user which means I'm not playing with beta from next OSes blabla, I buy PS CS2 and then Vista comes and I realize it is not compatible (or has quite restricted capabilities) when run under Vista. Basicaly I'm f*, I'm not? If you want to upgrade from XP to Vista, well, what for? Why would you want to upgrade until you know what you're going to get from it? Using software to do your work often means balancing the cost of new, desirable features against established reliability of a working system. You pay for the desirable new things as you accept them, the price should always include the cost of whatever other side effects are created. Sure and my questions and interrogations even of they might seem annoying and stubborn (thinking about William here, no offence meant, Will) is part of the work I need to do before making any decision. Photography is nothing more than a hobby an d a K10D hasn't been easy to pay and I earn nothing from my photography which means I'm must be very confident I'll make the best choice possible for my situation. BTW Godfrey since you seem to be pretty much used to Adobe softwares, do you think Adobe supports all their softwares the same way? I mean, is PSE well supported? I'm sure I could be satisfied with PSE * if they support it as what Adobe brand would lead me to beleive they would*. I don't ask the same support as PS CS, of course, you pay for that too. I haven't used the full suite of Adobe products, but I've gotten the same level of excellent support when using Acrobat 8 Standard that I get for Photoshop CS2. I don't belong to or purchase any of their more dedicated professional support programs. Useful comment. Of course, it might be that they have 10 support people to handle 100,000 PS CS2 users and 10 support people to handle 600,000 PSE users, and thus support practices for the lower priced product are more tuned to 1-to-Many support tools, which might not give quite the same warm fuzzies of the more expensive products. I'd consider that normal for low cost, high volume products vs higher cost, lower volume products. Fair enough. I'd just don't want anyone (Adobe or any other) to sell me a product which is low cost because support is essentially absent. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I still use ACR 2 on one of my main photography computer. Works fine with DNG files. I have ACR 3 on my work computer. It offers more flexibility in RAW conversion with its curves function, but I can still produce identical results with ACR2 and PSCS. Just have to work in a slightly different and perhaps somewhat more complicated way. (Generally, this just means an additional Curves adjustment or two after the file is opened in PSCS.) Paul -- Original message -- From: Thibouille [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Camera Raw 2 to 3 change was a major update, as Camera Raw 3 has huge changes in it that are in sync with new back-end services available only in CS2 and Bridge. They kept compatibility for version 3.x in the Basic operation mode for Photoshop Elements, which doesn't support any of Camera Raw's feature set beyond the Adjust and Detail tabs. Adding new cameras to the Camera Raw 2.x plugin would mean maintaining a second parallel development effort, which would be too costly. However, you can process the DNG files output from the combines Camera Raw and DNG Converter v3.x package with Camera Raw v2.4, so the upgrade path is there for you, without cost. They might have without too much trouble IMO but as long as they provide a converter for all those formats not supported by ACR before 3 to DNG so they can be imported with ACR is indeed suffcient even if not ideal. It works, you're right. It's OK. ... What wanna have for this price is the certainty an expensive software like PS will work with next OS. ... Unfortunately, nothing can be guaranteed as no vendor can know for sure what will happen with future versions of an OS, any OS. The depth and extent to which fixes and patching can be effective is variable. Imagine myself 6 months ago: I'm a normal user which means I'm not playing with beta from next OSes blabla, I buy PS CS2 and then Vista comes and I realize it is not compatible (or has quite restricted capabilities) when run under Vista. Basicaly I'm f*, I'm not? If you want to upgrade from XP to Vista, well, what for? Why would you want to upgrade until you know what you're going to get from it? Using software to do your work often means balancing the cost of new, desirable features against established reliability of a working system. You pay for the desirable new things as you accept them, the price should always include the cost of whatever other side effects are created. Sure and my questions and interrogations even of they might seem annoying and stubborn (thinking about William here, no offence meant, Will) is part of the work I need to do before making any decision. Photography is nothing more than a hobby an d a K10D hasn't been easy to pay and I earn nothing from my photography which means I'm must be very confident I'll make the best choice possible for my situation. BTW Godfrey since you seem to be pretty much used to Adobe softwares, do you think Adobe supports all their softwares the same way? I mean, is PSE well supported? I'm sure I could be satisfied with PSE * if they support it as what Adobe brand would lead me to beleive they would*. I don't ask the same support as PS CS, of course, you pay for that too. I haven't used the full suite of Adobe products, but I've gotten the same level of excellent support when using Acrobat 8 Standard that I get for Photoshop CS2. I don't belong to or purchase any of their more dedicated professional support programs. Useful comment. Of course, it might be that they have 10 support people to handle 100,000 PS CS2 users and 10 support people to handle 600,000 PSE users, and thus support practices for the lower priced product are more tuned to 1-to-Many support tools, which might not give quite the same warm fuzzies of the more expensive products. I'd consider that normal for low cost, high volume products vs higher cost, lower volume products. Fair enough. I'd just don't want anyone (Adobe or any other) to sell me a product which is low cost because support is essentially absent. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
You're not putting forward much of an argument there, Boris. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Sent: 09 February 2007 11:47 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: What advantage does running a legacy operating system with poor security get you? I think SP1 didn't kill your system if you are running an unregistered version of XP, and SP2 does a better check and disables it if it thinks it is pirated. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I don't see how that's Microsoft's fault. If the application writers tie their code into a specific version of the operating system in that way so that it's not reasonably future-proof, how can that be MS's fault? Where I work we have hundreds, if not thousands, of millions of pounds invested in software and there are very specific instructions to our software developers to write code that has a reasonable chance of surviving operating system suchlike upgrades. If they don't we don't run around blaming Microsoft or Oracle or IBM, we slap the application writers. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thibouille Sent: 09 February 2007 14:02 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Indeed, M$ implemented a better check against pirates but sp2 also inviolves some compatibility problems with a couple softwares, not many but some which *may* be critical for some. Here's an example: My parents have/had (depends on their mind) the habits of using a software which is Weihgt Watrcher's something (don't know the exact name in English) which stubbornely refuses to run under SP2. It shows in fact a bug running Authorware (on which it is based) from Macromedia (I think... RIP) and the runtime tells you to go to hell. It works perfectly well under XP RTM and XP SP1. Seems stupid but for them, it is defenitely critical and so I never updated their computer to SP2. Keep in mind you can uninstall it (SP2 I mean), anyway but you should be careful, that's all. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Christian Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom I wasn't unhappy with the service. Same thing happened to me. For once I bought real fully licensed versions of XP and Office 2003 and installed them on my existing PC. A few days later I decided to upgrade my motherboard, CPU, RAM and hard drive. XP wouldn't update to SP2 and office wouldn't register. An easy call to MS (yes, easy and quick) resolved the issue. I almost fell on the floor because I expected a long wait and a hassle. Now you know why I have little respect for Microsoft bashing. Anytime I've had to deal with them, they have been helpful and knowledgable. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Sure, I tyres are supposed to be used and wear over time. An OS/software is not supposed to, although I admit a Windows installation is good for format c: every 3 months. Ah, a professional Windows basher. A friend of mine is still running his original Win98SE install. I installed it for him in 2000, IIRC. My Win XP install ran 4 years without a hitch, and would still be running if the hardware hadn't failed. My old Pentium 2 is still in use, running Win98SE, which was a clean install in 2001. What you are complaining about is akin to complaining that the car you bought last year doesn't have as much horsepower as what they are putting under the hood this year. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Because they've often done so at MS's request. Win32 is not the most feature-stable API out there (DirectX on the other hand is better for that) -Adam Bob W wrote: I don't see how that's Microsoft's fault. If the application writers tie their code into a specific version of the operating system in that way so that it's not reasonably future-proof, how can that be MS's fault? Where I work we have hundreds, if not thousands, of millions of pounds invested in software and there are very specific instructions to our software developers to write code that has a reasonable chance of surviving operating system suchlike upgrades. If they don't we don't run around blaming Microsoft or Oracle or IBM, we slap the application writers. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thibouille Sent: 09 February 2007 14:02 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Indeed, M$ implemented a better check against pirates but sp2 also inviolves some compatibility problems with a couple softwares, not many but some which *may* be critical for some. Here's an example: My parents have/had (depends on their mind) the habits of using a software which is Weihgt Watrcher's something (don't know the exact name in English) which stubbornely refuses to run under SP2. It shows in fact a bug running Authorware (on which it is based) from Macromedia (I think... RIP) and the runtime tells you to go to hell. It works perfectly well under XP RTM and XP SP1. Seems stupid but for them, it is defenitely critical and so I never updated their computer to SP2. Keep in mind you can uninstall it (SP2 I mean), anyway but you should be careful, that's all. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Thibouille wrote: Adding new cameras to the Camera Raw 2.x plugin would mean maintaining a second parallel development effort, which would be too costly. ... They might have without too much trouble IMO ... Trust me. I worked with the folks at Adobe extensively, once knew lots of folks in their development groups very well personally. There are no resources to maintain a parallel development effort on Camera Raw, it would have cost a lot of money and time just to set it up. Fair enough. I'd just don't want anyone (Adobe or any other) to sell me a product which is low cost because support is essentially absent. That's not the way they work. Adobe has always been very good on support. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On this one, I suspect there's a bit of profit motive involved. The new camera specs and their RAW file parameters are identical whether it's ACR 3 or ACR 2. If you write a plug-in for one, I'm sure it's easy to transport it to the other. I use both a lot. ACR 3 adds a few features. In every other way, they're identical. But I'm not complaining. Profit is important. Keeps our favorite software provider in business. Paul On Feb 9, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Thibouille wrote: Adding new cameras to the Camera Raw 2.x plugin would mean maintaining a second parallel development effort, which would be too costly. ... They might have without too much trouble IMO ... Trust me. I worked with the folks at Adobe extensively, once knew lots of folks in their development groups very well personally. There are no resources to maintain a parallel development effort on Camera Raw, it would have cost a lot of money and time just to set it up. Fair enough. I'd just don't want anyone (Adobe or any other) to sell me a product which is low cost because support is essentially absent. That's not the way they work. Adobe has always been very good on support. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Except the plugin is different(I suspect you're confising plugin and camera profiles). There's a fair bit of internal differences between ACR 2 and ACR 3, and while camera profiles are common to both, actually adding the recognition portion of the code and testing it will be different (There's two parts to adding support for a camera, one is the profile and the other is to modify the file type recognition, the latter is the issue). There's no economic justification for Adobe to continue to support long-discontinued software like Photoshop CS and Elements 2, neither of which has been available from Adobe for 2 years. And since they'd have to setup a group to QC the updates, this is a cost issue where Adobe will have no income to justify the costs. -Adam Paul Stenquist wrote: On this one, I suspect there's a bit of profit motive involved. The new camera specs and their RAW file parameters are identical whether it's ACR 3 or ACR 2. If you write a plug-in for one, I'm sure it's easy to transport it to the other. I use both a lot. ACR 3 adds a few features. In every other way, they're identical. But I'm not complaining. Profit is important. Keeps our favorite software provider in business. Paul On Feb 9, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Thibouille wrote: Adding new cameras to the Camera Raw 2.x plugin would mean maintaining a second parallel development effort, which would be too costly. ... They might have without too much trouble IMO ... Trust me. I worked with the folks at Adobe extensively, once knew lots of folks in their development groups very well personally. There are no resources to maintain a parallel development effort on Camera Raw, it would have cost a lot of money and time just to set it up. Fair enough. I'd just don't want anyone (Adobe or any other) to sell me a product which is low cost because support is essentially absent. That's not the way they work. Adobe has always been very good on support. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I agree with you, Bill. Though I do bash Micro$oft but XP is stable if driven properly. I think mine is like 2+ years old now and it is still there. William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Sure, I tyres are supposed to be used and wear over time. An OS/software is not supposed to, although I admit a Windows installation is good for format c: every 3 months. Ah, a professional Windows basher. A friend of mine is still running his original Win98SE install. I installed it for him in 2000, IIRC. My Win XP install ran 4 years without a hitch, and would still be running if the hardware hadn't failed. My old Pentium 2 is still in use, running Win98SE, which was a clean install in 2001. What you are complaining about is akin to complaining that the car you bought last year doesn't have as much horsepower as what they are putting under the hood this year. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
What you quoted is not my argument, though, Bob. OTOH, based on if ain't broken don't fix it rule I shouldn't be producing any argument at all, should I? Unlike many people on the list, my Windoze has been installed only once on my computer. It works. It does all I need it to do. Bob W wrote: You're not putting forward much of an argument there, Boris. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Sent: 09 February 2007 11:47 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: What advantage does running a legacy operating system with poor security get you? I think SP1 didn't kill your system if you are running an unregistered version of XP, and SP2 does a better check and disables it if it thinks it is pirated. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom N only a sor of warranty which would warrant (obviously) that your lovely $1000 software will still be useful onece new Window$ or OSX or whatever comes out or new ACR or whatever. This sort of forcing you to upgrade is lame to say the least. I seem to be making the same debating point on two different threads. If what I have now is working, why would I need to update anything? If something comes along that I think might work better for me, then I have a decision to make regarding whether I want to adopt it or not, whether I want to spend the money or not. I could still be using my PII/Windows 98 and Photoshop 5 if I wanted to. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/8/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: N only a sor of warranty which would warrant (obviously) that your lovely $1000 software will still be useful onece new Window$ or OSX or whatever comes out or new ACR or whatever. This sort of forcing you to upgrade is lame to say the least. I seem to be making the same debating point on two different threads. If what I have now is working, why would I need to update anything? If something comes along that I think might work better for me, then I have a decision to make regarding whether I want to adopt it or not, whether I want to spend the money or not. I could still be using my PII/Windows 98 and Photoshop 5 if I wanted to. My wife uses Elements. We started with version 3 I think, and are now up to 4. We also have a copy of CS2, which I occasionally use but she never does. In reality we could use something like Picasa for the vast majority of what we do. I've found that the spot healing brush is essential for film scanning. Other than that I typically adjust contrast and highlights/shadow for my black and white scans. Looking back it's plainly obvious that Elements 3 is plenty for what we need. The money spent on Elements 4 and CS2 would have been better spent on lenses. I'm sure some of you need the horsepower in CS2, and it's perfectly justified. For me, though, I just got caught up in the upgrade cycle. In September 2005 I bought my wife a Mac Mini for her birthday. When she opened it she asked me if Adobe offered special pricing for switching from the PC version to the Mac version of Photoshop, and would she have to replace her collection of Sims games, and on and on. Apparently, I hadn't thought things through. Turns out that switching her to a Mac (she didn't want multiple computers at her desk) would cost more than buying the Mac itself. We sent it back. Now that Macs are capable of dual booting Winders we may re-consider. But for now she's staying with what she has. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Speaking of upgrades. My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/8/07, Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In September 2005 I bought my wife a Mac Mini for her birthday. When she opened it she asked me if Adobe offered special pricing for switching from the PC version to the Mac version of Photoshop, and Out of curiousity Scott, how much would it have cost to move the Photoshop license(s) from Windows to Mac? I may be facing a similar upgrade path soon. I may just wait until CS3 is released, and purchase that for the mac. -Mat -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/8/07, Mat Maessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/8/07, Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In September 2005 I bought my wife a Mac Mini for her birthday. When she opened it she asked me if Adobe offered special pricing for switching from the PC version to the Mac version of Photoshop, and Out of curiousity Scott, how much would it have cost to move the Photoshop license(s) from Windows to Mac? I may be facing a similar upgrade path soon. I may just wait until CS3 is released, and purchase that for the mac. We couldn't find anything specific on Adobe's site about making the switch. I though this was odd. So I shot off an email to Adobe asking about it. I got two replies. One stated that we would only need to pay the upgrade price, and the other said we would have to pay full price. We gave up at that point. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/8/07, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speaking of upgrades. My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? It's all about what it costs Adobe to support end users on multiple platforms. If they can develop and test for one OS, they save money. Believe me, supporting a product on every version of Windows ever released is a PITA. I've done it. It sucks. While there may be no technical reason that Lightroom won't work on earlier versions of Windows, if I were Adobe I'd do things the same way. When I worked for First Data, I supported literally thousands of users running anything from Windows 98 to XP. There were even a few 95 boxes out there running critical applications that had been abandoned by their developers. So we supported that, too. Our outside sales force were all issued laptop computers. The established sales reps got the newer models. The newbies got hand-me-downs. Quite a few of these were four and five year old Dell's running W2K with 256MB RAM and 6GB hard disks. Some of the newer sales tools were memory hogs. We quickly found that many of the older machines just couldn't handle it. This basically forced a hardware upgrade for a big chunk of the company. We couldn't have been happier. We went from supporting a few thousand Frankenstein laptops that had been strung along for years, to supporting mostly brand new machines all running the same OS. We were able to reduce average handle time. In turn, the dept was able cope with attrition much better. We simply didn't replace the first two people to leave after the upgrade. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On Feb 8, 2007, at 6:40 AM, Mat Maessen wrote: On 2/8/07, Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In September 2005 I bought my wife a Mac Mini for her birthday. When she opened it she asked me if Adobe offered special pricing for switching from the PC version to the Mac version of Photoshop, and Out of curiousity Scott, how much would it have cost to move the Photoshop license(s) from Windows to Mac? I may be facing a similar upgrade path soon. I may just wait until CS3 is released, and purchase that for the mac. If you have the current version, it is cost free to do an OS platform license transfer. Here is a report from another user on the process: http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34459 If you are not using the current version, they require an upgrade to the current version as they will send you the current version; the cost is the price of an upgrade. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
From: Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/08 Thu PM 02:45:02 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Speaking of upgrades. My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? AFAIK SP2 is most importantly a security overhaul, although there will undoubtedly be other issues dealt with in there. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Boris Liberman wrote: Speaking of upgrades. My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? It's about support, Boris. I work in a huge company with thousands of machines. If we have a problem with one or an application running on one, the vendors will check firmware and OS kernel versions before even investigating the problem. If it is behind they will not look at the problem until we update to the latest version. In windows/lightroom case, SP2 has been around for a while and I'm sure Lightroom was developed to run on the updated version. sure it might work on SP1, but if it doesn't in some way it could be because of OS version interactions and the solution will be to update to SP2. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On Feb 8, 2007, at 6:45 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? Support/development costs for new software running on operating system versions that are obsolete make it infeasible to offer full testing/support for that system configuration, plain and simple. It has little to do with what is possible functionally, although that might enter into the picture too depending upon what features supplied by the OS an application is taking advantage of. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boris Liberman Sent: 08 February 2007 14:45 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Speaking of upgrades. My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I'll answer for Boris. Because SP1 is a legacy operating system. Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob W Sent: 8. februar 2007 21:20 To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. -- Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boris Liberman Sent: 08 February 2007 14:45 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Speaking of upgrades. My home PC is running Win XP SP1. Please don't try to convince me it is not good. Now, LR comes and says - I shall run on SP1, but you should upgrade to SP2 so that with SP1 you won't get any support from my team. Bullshit if you ask me. What on earth makes SP2 so much preferable over SP1 for photo editing??? -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
What advantage does running a legacy operating system with poor security get you? G On Feb 8, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote: I'll answer for Boris. Because SP1 is a legacy operating system. Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Obvious. When you get a virus you have a reason to stay home from work. Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: 9. februar 2007 03:12 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom What advantage does running a legacy operating system with poor security get you? G On Feb 8, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote: I'll answer for Boris. Because SP1 is a legacy operating system. Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Bob, Godfrey, Tim (;-) ) I run SP1 simply because I experience no security problems. I am connected to the internet via NetGear router (thanks to my younger brother who gave it to me) and so far I haven't had a single problem (knock on the wood of my head). Generally I tend to prefer the oldest OSes possible because it seems (like in I think so, but I am not sure) to me it has less moving parts, less complexity, and thus more stable for my operations. I think that I was forced to move from Win 98 (notice, not 98 SE, and not Millenium) 'cause my DSL operator did not support non XP OSes. Bob W wrote: Why are you still running SP1? SP2 is a security upgrade and costs nothing (other than additional storage space). Your stuff is at risk without it. -- Bob Tim, I don't drive Subary Legacy so that Legacy OSes do not concern me ;-). Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Pricing has never been Adobe's strong point. I have chosen to use other tools partly because of that. Picture Window Pro for editing and either Capture One or Silkypix or Bibble for Raw development, along with BreezeBrowser for file management have served me pretty well so far. Sorry that you are having trouble. -- Bruce Tuesday, February 6, 2007, 11:46:43 PM, you wrote: BL Hello there. BL Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit BL card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if BL any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. BL So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless BL of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about BL CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. BL I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... BL *Deep sigh* BL Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
PS cost me about the same as my 77 Ltd, so I tend to think of the expense as I would purchasing a high quality lens. It's a tool that I deem necessary. I first started using PS to do photo restorations. It was several years before I actually used it to edit my own pictures. Unless you intend to do photo restorations/retouching, or graphics, the full version of Photoshop is overkill. But I don't just use it's levels curves features, so I think it's worth the price. WRT, LR I'm going to give it a miss get the CS3 upgrade instead. The RAW development tools of LR are going to be in the revised ACR, plus the other goodies that will be in CS3. As to the cost, assume a 2 year product upgrade cycle and it works out to about NIS 600/year (~AU$184), or 50/month. Not much when you think of it like that huh? ;-). Also when the next version comes out, you only pay the upgrade price, should you choose to upgrade. Cheers, Dave (apprentice enabler) On 2/7/07, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello there. Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... *Deep sigh* Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Bruce, I went to the next and checked the prices. Except Capture One Pro (which is really expensive at EUR 500) I will need two or three tools from your list. I mean, at least an editor and a RAW converter, provided I could use FastStone image viewer for the rest. This yields prices starting at around $200... Not much to gain compared to LR prices. Though of course, I've no clue how to Adobe will manage pricing of LR updates. More work to do for me, I am afraid ;-). On 2/7/07, Bruce Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pricing has never been Adobe's strong point. I have chosen to use other tools partly because of that. Picture Window Pro for editing and either Capture One or Silkypix or Bibble for Raw development, along with BreezeBrowser for file management have served me pretty well so far. Sorry that you are having trouble. -- Bruce Tuesday, February 6, 2007, 11:46:43 PM, you wrote: BL Hello there. BL Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit BL card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if BL any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. BL So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless BL of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about BL CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. BL I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... BL *Deep sigh* BL Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/7/07, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce, I went to the next and checked the prices. Except Capture One Pro (which is really expensive at EUR 500) I will need two or three tools from your list. I mean, at least an editor and a RAW converter, provided I could use FastStone image viewer for the rest. This yields prices starting at around $200... Not much to gain compared to LR prices. Though of course, I've no clue how to Adobe will manage pricing of LR updates. More work to do for me, I am afraid ;-). On 2/7/07, Bruce Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pricing has never been Adobe's strong point. I have chosen to use other tools partly because of that. Picture Window Pro for editing and either Capture One or Silkypix or Bibble for Raw development, along with BreezeBrowser for file management have served me pretty well so far. Sorry that you are having trouble. -- Bruce Tuesday, February 6, 2007, 11:46:43 PM, you wrote: BL Hello there. BL Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit BL card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if BL any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. BL So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless BL of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about BL CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. BL I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... BL *Deep sigh* Hey, Boris. You should take a look at Picasa. It will handle pef files from the *ist D, DS, DL, K100D and K110D. No pef support for K10D yet, but it does support DNG. You can't beat the price. It's rather limited and not quite as flexible as PS or Picture Window, but it's often good enough for quick edits and web display. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
mm I suppose it is a question of POV. Frankly, I'd choose the 77ltd and ditch PS but it dpends on the use you make from both. What I know is that the 77 will still have work the same as it does now in a couple years if used on a body from the same era. It wouldn't be good enough for the trash. A software needs upgrades once in a while which you have to pay for. Imagine you have to upgrade the coating of your lens every 2 years... If PS and such software which are VERY expensive IMO for those like me (I don't earn anything from my photography hobby) would be offered with free upgrades then I'd probably consider it very seriously. For me Lightroom is probably very useful. If I need an editor, I'll be satisfied with an other one I think, even if PS would be cool to have and probably offer beter integration with Lightroom. Still, try to sell your PS CS in 5 years and a 77ltd in 5 years just to see what money one an get back from those investisment. I'd be curious. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/07/07 9:06 AM, Scott Loveless, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, Boris. You should take a look at Picasa. It will handle pef files from the *ist D, DS, DL, K100D and K110D. No pef support for K10D yet, but it does support DNG. You can't beat the price. It's rather limited and not quite as flexible as PS or Picture Window, but it's often good enough for quick edits and web display. Not quite relating to this but a friend of mine emailed Stepok¹s Raw Importer/Convertor for me to check it out. Unfortunately, this is for dark side computers only but the price is right - free. http://www.adidap.com/2007/02/07/free-raw-converter/ I do not even know if this supports compatible with K10D. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom A software needs upgrades once in a while which you have to pay for. Imagine you have to upgrade the coating of your lens every 2 years... If PS and such software which are VERY expensive IMO for those like me (I don't earn anything from my photography hobby) would be offered with free upgrades then I'd probably consider it very seriously. I suppose you work for free to support the best interests of people you don't know? I expect not. Why should software writers? Anyway, buying into Photoshop is an expensive proposition, and yes, the upgrades cost money, but not huge amounts. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
On 2/07/07 9:38 AM, K.Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not quite relating to this but a friend of mine emailed Stepok¹s Raw Importer/Convertor for me to check it out. Unfortunately, this is for dark side computers only but the price is right - free. http://www.adidap.com/2007/02/07/free-raw-converter/ I do not even know if this supports compatible with K10D. For a brief description; http://www.stepok.net/eng/raw_importer.htm For download; http://www.stepok.net/eng/download.htm Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I fully expected Lightroom to be about $300. With the sophistication I see in this application and it's fit to my needs, that is inexpensive. The moaning and lamenting about Photoshop pricing reminds me of Leica owners with $30,000 worth of Leica M bodies and lenses in their bag going to CostCo to save three dollars on film processing and accepting the mediocre results. And then complaining about the results and blaming CostCo. It makes no sense to me. Image processing tools are, if anything, MORE important than fancy lenses if you're serious about making fine photographs. I bought Photoshop because, after trying every other tool available, it did the best job for me even if it didn't do everything I needed. I bought it before I started expecting to make a living from my photography, they just did the job right for me. I am buying Lightroom for the same reason. The two together address all my needs, and cost me less than the DA14. I like the DA14 very much, but if push came to shove I'd take Photoshop + Lightroom instead. Using them will likely generate the money to buy a DA14 faster than using a DA14 and less productive tools. Well, that's my perspective ... Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
In a message dated 2/7/2007 8:08:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, that's my perspective ... Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Godfrey === Yup, my opinion is that Adobe overprices. By at least $100 per product. I don't think software should be a purchase one has to go into hock for (i.e. run up cc bill, or nix another lens purchase in favor of it instead). What the heck do I know, though? I am still on CS 1 with no plans to upgrade any time soon. And I bought it used on Amazon (works fine). I do like Elements 5, however. Maybe I need nothing else. Not all of us have your photographic workflow, Godfrey. I don't shoot nearly as much. My tools are fine for my workflow (er, since I am not selling, let's call that funflow). Marnie aka Doe :-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
- Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom Image processing tools are, if anything, MORE important than fancy lenses if you're serious about making fine photographs. Up until a very few years ago, I had way more money invested in darkroom equipment than camera equipment. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Yes, but you still need an editor even if you get LightRoom, so you are really looking at more of around $100-$130 for a raw converter. If you already have an editor that you use, continue to use it. Lightroom is not a photo editor, it is a converter. -- Bruce Wednesday, February 7, 2007, 2:00:29 AM, you wrote: BL Bruce, I went to the next and checked the prices. Except Capture One BL Pro (which is really expensive at EUR 500) I will need two or three BL tools from your list. I mean, at least an editor and a RAW converter, BL provided I could use FastStone image viewer for the rest. This yields BL prices starting at around $200... Not much to gain compared to LR BL prices. Though of course, I've no clue how to Adobe will manage BL pricing of LR updates. BL More work to do for me, I am afraid ;-). BL On 2/7/07, Bruce Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pricing has never been Adobe's strong point. I have chosen to use other tools partly because of that. Picture Window Pro for editing and either Capture One or Silkypix or Bibble for Raw development, along with BreezeBrowser for file management have served me pretty well so far. Sorry that you are having trouble. -- Bruce Tuesday, February 6, 2007, 11:46:43 PM, you wrote: BL Hello there. BL Apparently I cannot pay to Adobe either with my international credit BL card or PayPal. Further, I must have a legal postal address so that if BL any of you agrees to buy the sucker for me, it still will be unsupported. BL So I turned to Adobe representative in Israel. LR costs $285 regardless BL of whatever introductory price Adobe has in USA. Bummer. I asked about BL CS2. CS2 costs in Israel $1000+. Big bummer. BL I am not entirely sure I will enjoy shelling out NIS 1,200 just because... BL *Deep sigh* BL Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net BL -- BL Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Godfrey, to clarify my point (of the initial message of this thread). I consider LR pricing to be fair. I consider the way Adobe markets its products outside US of A to be very user-repulsing. On 2/7/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I fully expected Lightroom to be about $300. With the sophistication I see in this application and it's fit to my needs, that is inexpensive. The moaning and lamenting about Photoshop pricing reminds me of Leica owners with $30,000 worth of Leica M bodies and lenses in their bag going to CostCo to save three dollars on film processing and accepting the mediocre results. And then complaining about the results and blaming CostCo. It makes no sense to me. Image processing tools are, if anything, MORE important than fancy lenses if you're serious about making fine photographs. I bought Photoshop because, after trying every other tool available, it did the best job for me even if it didn't do everything I needed. I bought it before I started expecting to make a living from my photography, they just did the job right for me. I am buying Lightroom for the same reason. The two together address all my needs, and cost me less than the DA14. I like the DA14 very much, but if push came to shove I'd take Photoshop + Lightroom instead. Using them will likely generate the money to buy a DA14 faster than using a DA14 and less productive tools. Well, that's my perspective ... Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
It is not so much the lamenting of the price of tools in general, it is that Adobe is high priced compared to the competition. You might get more in the package, but much of it may not be needed. So when I compare all the other converters, they are running around $100-140 in price - about 1/2 to 1/3 the Lightroom price. And yes, I have tried Lightroom - part of it I like very much, but part of it is not needed for the workflow that I do. I sell photos for weddings, portraits and sports and need on-line ordering, money collection, lab interface, drop shipping and such. Lightroom and Photoshop offer me none of that. I use a tool that is called Darkroom from ExpressDigital and cost quite a bit too. But there isn't much competition to choose from for it. So for my needs, I need a raw converter, an editor for a few things and some file management - Darkroom does quite a bit of that as well There are many types of photographers and workflows to suit their needs. Adobe tools suit some of them, but not all. Competitors are typically lower priced which makes the Adobe price when come out. I think the Leica comparison is more for those who don't have Leica who think it is overpriced. It may be better than the competitors, but not by enough for everyone to feel justified by the prices they ask. We have seen the same kind of thing from other vendors when they have a great product that has significant market share - Novell, Microsoft (debatable on great product-but have significant market share), Adobe and others have been able to charge a premium price and do so. I am not saying they shouldn't do it - if the market will bear it, then more power to them - but it certainly encourages me to look at other tools. Sorry for the rambling... -- Best regards, Bruce Wednesday, February 7, 2007, 8:40:17 AM, you wrote: BL Godfrey, to clarify my point (of the initial message of this thread). BL I consider LR pricing to be fair. I consider the way Adobe markets its BL products outside US of A to be very user-repulsing. BL On 2/7/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I fully expected Lightroom to be about $300. With the sophistication I see in this application and it's fit to my needs, that is inexpensive. The moaning and lamenting about Photoshop pricing reminds me of Leica owners with $30,000 worth of Leica M bodies and lenses in their bag going to CostCo to save three dollars on film processing and accepting the mediocre results. And then complaining about the results and blaming CostCo. It makes no sense to me. Image processing tools are, if anything, MORE important than fancy lenses if you're serious about making fine photographs. I bought Photoshop because, after trying every other tool available, it did the best job for me even if it didn't do everything I needed. I bought it before I started expecting to make a living from my photography, they just did the job right for me. I am buying Lightroom for the same reason. The two together address all my needs, and cost me less than the DA14. I like the DA14 very much, but if push came to shove I'd take Photoshop + Lightroom instead. Using them will likely generate the money to buy a DA14 faster than using a DA14 and less productive tools. Well, that's my perspective ... Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net BL -- BL Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Bruce, Your characterization of Lightroom is inadequate ... it is a photographic management application with RAW conversion, image adjustment, and presentation tools embedded. I find that with Lightroom my need for Photoshop's higher level editing has diminished quite a lot compared to how much I need it when using Bridge and Camera Raw to do the RAW conversion processing. Of the past several weeks work, less than 10 of the 150 exposures I've printed have required any editing work outside of Lightroom's facilities. Printing and export to web-sized JPEGs are all handled within the environment too, rather than in Photoshop. And with it's modular architecture, I'm betting that in the future there will be an ecology of third party tools delivered for it to address more specific needs. Godfrey On Feb 7, 2007, at 8:31 AM, Bruce Dayton wrote: Yes, but you still need an editor even if you get LightRoom, so you are really looking at more of around $100-$130 for a raw converter. If you already have an editor that you use, continue to use it. Lightroom is not a photo editor, it is a converter. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
I will agree that for your use, my characterization is inadequate - for the parts that I could find useful to me, I stand by my characterization. With my current toolset, my use of a photo editor is similar to yours. I think more, I am trying to say that Lightroom and photoshop suit certain types of photographers very well, for others only part of the tools are useful. Each person will have to determine if the toolset fits well or not. Certainly Boris will have to make that decision. The fact that he is not happy about the price would seem to indicate that he is not fully exploiting the capabilities within Lightroom. Maybe he should work with more to see if it is the right tool - if so, then the price may become a non-issue. -- Bruce Wednesday, February 7, 2007, 9:38:40 AM, you wrote: GD Bruce, GD Your characterization of Lightroom is inadequate ... it is a GD photographic management application with RAW conversion, image GD adjustment, and presentation tools embedded. GD I find that with Lightroom my need for Photoshop's higher level GD editing has diminished quite a lot compared to how much I need it GD when using Bridge and Camera Raw to do the RAW conversion processing. GD Of the past several weeks work, less than 10 of the 150 exposures GD I've printed have required any editing work outside of Lightroom's GD facilities. Printing and export to web-sized JPEGs are all handled GD within the environment too, rather than in Photoshop. GD And with it's modular architecture, I'm betting that in the future GD there will be an ecology of third party tools delivered for it to GD address more specific needs. GD Godfrey GD On Feb 7, 2007, at 8:31 AM, Bruce Dayton wrote: Yes, but you still need an editor even if you get LightRoom, so you are really looking at more of around $100-$130 for a raw converter. If you already have an editor that you use, continue to use it. Lightroom is not a photo editor, it is a converter. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
At 11:07 PM 7/02/2007, Thibouille wrote: mm I suppose it is a question of POV. Frankly, I'd choose the 77ltd and ditch PS but it dpends on the use you make from both. The 77 Ltd. won't help me restore a damaged 50+ year old photograph, unless I go back to doing restorations with spotting dyes razor blades. That's why I got PS. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
N only a sor of warranty which would warrant (obviously) that your lovely $1000 software will still be useful onece new Window$ or OSX or whatever comes out or new ACR or whatever. This sort of forcing you to upgrade is lame to say the least. 2007/2/7, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message - From: Thibouille Subject: Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom A software needs upgrades once in a while which you have to pay for. Imagine you have to upgrade the coating of your lens every 2 years... If PS and such software which are VERY expensive IMO for those like me (I don't earn anything from my photography hobby) would be offered with free upgrades then I'd probably consider it very seriously. I suppose you work for free to support the best interests of people you don't know? I expect not. Why should software writers? Anyway, buying into Photoshop is an expensive proposition, and yes, the upgrades cost money, but not huge amounts. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
Indeed, that's why I talked about POV ;) 2007/2/8, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: At 11:07 PM 7/02/2007, Thibouille wrote: mm I suppose it is a question of POV. Frankly, I'd choose the 77ltd and ditch PS but it dpends on the use you make from both. The 77 Ltd. won't help me restore a damaged 50+ year old photograph, unless I go back to doing restorations with spotting dyes razor blades. That's why I got PS. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Trying to buy the LightRoom
The moaning and lamenting about Photoshop pricing reminds me of Leica owners with $30,000 worth of Leica M bodies and lenses in their bag going to CostCo to save three dollars on film processing and accepting the mediocre results. And then complaining about the results and blaming CostCo. It makes no sense to me. Except a Leica ai nothing near disposable when computer technologies (both hardware and software) are. My problem is not only to pay a high price (I did for my K10D) but the value it will have later. I know my K10D will worth almost nothing in 3-4 years. But I'm not even sure that PS will run OK on next Window$ version or that next ACR version will work with it. My problem is the combination of the two + the use I expect to do of an editor. Now that Lightroom's here, I won't edit a lot IMO. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
