Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
I wrote: Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. Indi replies: Yes well, the idea that we actually make containers which contain only H2O and silver is a misconception, as you yourself have just pointed out. Yes, but your contention that we cannot achieve any kind of effective air-tight seal is quite misconcieved as well. I've seen plastic pop bottles filled with water on a warm day in the fall and left in the trunk of a car over an entire winter, collapse as the weather got cold, *stay* that way for months even as they underwent numerous freeze-thaw cycles, and return to their original volume the first equally warm day in the spring. I've personally sampled home-canned fruit that was at least 20 years old and still well-sealed and safely edible. I've also designed, built and operated vacuum equipment with everything from O-ring seals and rough pumps to cryo-pumped ultra-high-vacuum systems with conflat flanges. I'm aware that there are detectable leak rates across various sealing materials and diffusion of hydrogen and helium through metals and glass. All of my experiences back up Ken's off-the-cuff report: Although it's theoretically possible, in fact inevitable, that some exchange of gas molecules between the interior and exterior of a filled container will take place, at near-atmospheric pressures and for all practical purposes the amounts are NOT significant as long as the seals are functioning as they're designed. If you are concerned about effects down in the 10^-12 range, don't bother. They are not meaningful in this discussion. Nothing we do here is that precise, nor does it need to be. As I said, without proper chemical analysis one cannot be sure of the exact content, and it is exceedingly unlikely that what we make to start with is pure H2O and silver only, or that the solution stored in simple jars will remain unchanged for very long. Once whatever dissolved gases included in the closed container have finished doing whatever they're going to do over the first few days, long term changes appear to be minimal, based on more reports than just Ken's. Given how sensitive electrical conductivity happens to be to even slight changes in conditions or composition, getting two readings even roughly the same months apart is a pretty strong indicator that things haven't changed significantly. In our experience, that's the nature of the beast when you're talking about conductivity. While the exact value of your readings may not be all that close to some theoretical ideal measurement, comparative readings are in fact pretty sensitive to changes. That is my point, and I certainly cannot yield it, I'd be lying. Well, you're welcome to your position, but in the absence of actual experiences contradicting the rest of us, I'll take a wait-and-see attitude on your assertions, okay? grin Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... As near as I can tell from here, all your posts made it through, including the one you re-sent when you didn't see it. (Which is understandable given the circumstances.) Three people have now reported to me that COMCAST has once again been intermittently blocking messages from the list server. Be well, Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moons revisited
I don't think I did. You said that neither can be proved one way or the other, but I have proved beyond any shadow of doubt that EIS works, as have you and thousands of others! Totally different to religion. dee Neville wrote: You totally missed my point, which was that anything can be argued to death, not whether something works or not! N. Neville wrote: Sorry, but just as a point, EICS is in the same catagory to me as religion, consider all the arguements which abound with that subject! When it is all torn down it all comes to the same thing..belief, faith, blindly following, or..conviction! See my point? There is nobody on this planet that can 'prove' one way or the other, it all comes down to the individual and what they believe -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSAnecdotal versus laboratory testing methods
I had a thought about this. Didn't the latter come about because it became somewhat 'undesirable' to test things actually on people? In the early days when things like bella donna and arsenic were used, they must have tested the doses on people in order to decide what were the beneficial amounts to take, mustn't they? I presume the poor were used as they would have been expendable in those dark times, as they were used for a lot of experimentation. By this thinking, I would have thought that anecdotal evidence and experience, should be superior to laboratory testing because the results are irrefutable. There are too many variables in laboratory tests to be accurate when it comes to people actually *using* stuff. Take Vioxx for example, and Thalidomide. *They* were presumably laboratory tested, but look at the disasters caused when given to people! Just a notion. dee -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moons revisited
My problem with you, dude is that you claim I'm speaking in absolutes when I clearly stated being within observational limits, which NO ONE isn't. There are no absolutes with observation.anywhere. But somehow there ARE absolutes without it? Not being able to detect a change indicates no proof there was a change until one can be detected. I Proved it within the limits of available proof [There ARE no disciplines that don't have limits ] You have proved nothing, in ANY way. You don't back up YOUR claims to the contrary with anything but hear say. You merely say it MUST have changed and haven't even made any observations...OK...HOW? At the least .explain the mechanism of a possibility so it CAN be considered. You don't even explain why YOU ***think*** something is true...you just believe in some Godlike theories you won't even identify. I've run across a hundred theories that obviously are NOT true and a hundred more that are obviously incompleteso tell me why I should believe one that's not even been stated, is even close to being viable. You have yet to MAKE a point, all you have is a lousy finger with nothing holding it up. All you have done is dismiss years of observation, proving it wrong BECAUSE you have done none. What kind of chicken shit is this? TELL ME SOMETHING USEFUL!..I'm listening professor. There is a LOT I don't know...educate me If you have it, spit it out. If you don't..go get it. You made a challenge, not a point...so step up to it. Otherwise, it's foolishness, plain and simpleton. Only when you know absolutely nothing, can you be absolutely right. You don't learn a damned thing unless you are wrong. Show me WHERE I'm wrong so I can learn something...professor. Ode At 10:01 AM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote: I'm glad the silver worked for your friend. See, reporting anecdotal evidence is fine. My difference with Ode is that he crossed a line, saying unchanged after five years, claiming he proved it with an EC meter and laser pointer. That is the very soul of speaking in absolutes. :) You and I may both feel it is plausible that someone got some benefit from a solution stored for years, but if we pronounce the solution unchanged, we take on a burden of proof which we cannot hope to satisfy (unless one of us is a lab tech with access to a well-equipped lab). That is all I'm saying. It is such an obvious point I'd have been happy to say it once and be done, but Ode keeps thinking he can refute the point. It just isn't possible to do that, period full stop. The problem is, there may people on this list who are impressionable and do not possess the most refined critical thinking skills, and I fear for such people when I see the anecdotal pronounced as absolute. We should be more responsible than that! I for one am very enthusiastic about CS and recommend trying it to nearly everyone I meet who is plagued with a health issue for which they have no effective treatment. But I *don't* make extravagant claims, I simply say it did this for me; it may help you too. That is IMO the responsible thing to do. We are all guinea pigs here, and there is much we do not know. So let's keep it honest and try to be humble adventurers in search of the truth. That's all I'm saying, really. I gets my goat when people make extravagant claims they cannot back, because that can only hurt us all. Again, apologies to Ode and anyone else I may have offended. I hope that this clears things up, regarding my intentions. Best Regards, indi On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 08:44:47AM +0100, Dee wrote: With silver being so sensitive to *any* contaminants, I would have thought it would show some colour change or something, if something had become contaminated within it. Would not the taste change? I gave some three year old silver (a bit cruddy) to someone who had never used it and was a sceptic, but she had been to the doctors for two months with raging diarrhoea and sickness, and she drank the whole 250mls out of desperation. Hey presto, she was cured and is now a silver fan. Obviously this was just as efficaceous as any made recently. To me, this is 'proof' enough, as it was in a clear bottle and just chucked on a shelf somewhere for the three years. dee Indi wrote: We seem to be on different pages here. When you speak in absolutes, I tend to take it literally. Now I understand, you speak in absolutes but are taking a lot on faith. That's fine for you, but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast EIS unchanges after five years armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms). -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The
CSCASH. I am just passing this on
This advice hasn't changed for at least the past 6 months, and probably much longer, except that it is now more urgent. Faith G. Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 7:31 AM Subject: Weiss Research's Emergency QA - Transcript Money and Markets Monday, October 20, 2008 WEISS RESEARCH'S EMERGENCY QA - TRANSCRIPT by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D. Dear Faith, Paulson and Bernanke's massive bailout for the banking industry is causing so many unintended side effects it must be making their heads spin. Yes, banks have gotten some interest-rate relief and don't have to pay through the nose for short-term funds like they did a few days ago. But to fund the bailout, the government will have to borrow massive sums, and the mere expectation of that huge avalanche of borrowing is already driving long-term interest rates higher. To read more click here ... http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/?p=27632 Good luck and God bless! Martin -- About Money and Markets For more information and archived issues, visit http://www.moneyandmarkets.com Money and Markets (MaM) is published by Weiss Research, Inc. and written by Martin D. Weiss along with Tony Sagami, Nilus Mattive, Sean Brodrick, Larry Edelson, Michael Larson, and Jack Crooks. To avoid conflicts of interest, Weiss Research and its staff do not hold positions in companies recommended in MaM, nor do we accept any compensation for such recommendations. The comments, graphs, forecasts, and indices published in MaM are based upon data whose accuracy is deemed reliable but not guaranteed. Performance returns cited are derived from our best estimates but must be considered hypothetical in as much as we do not track the actual prices investors pay or receive. Regular contributors and staff include Kristen Adams, Andrea Baumwald, John Burke, Amber Dakar, Dinesh Kalera, Red Morgan, Maryellen Murphy, Jennifer Newman-Amos, Adam Shafer, Julie Trudeau and Leslie Underwood. Attention editors and publishers! Money and Markets issues can be republished. Republished issues MUST include attribution of the author(s) and the following short paragraph: This investment news is brought to you by Money and Markets. Money and Markets is a free daily investment newsletter from Martin D. Weiss and Weiss Research analysts offering the latest investing news and financial insights for the stock market, including tips and advice on investing in gold, energy and oil. Dr. Weiss is a leader in the fields of investing, interest rates, financial safety and economic forecasting. To view archives or subscribe, visit http://www.moneyandmarkets.com From time to time, Money and Markets may have information from select third-party advertisers known as external sponsorships. We cannot guarantee the accuracy of these ads. In addition, these ads do not necessarily express the viewpoints of Money and Markets or its editors. For more information, see our terms and conditions. http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/legal View our Privacy Policy. http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/privacy-policy Would you like to unsubscribe from our mailing list? http://www.emailpreferencecenter.com/?email=jitte...@gis.net To make sure you don't miss our urgent updates, add Weiss Research to your address book. Just follow these simple steps. http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/whitelist Copyright 2008 by Weiss Research, Inc. All rights reserved. 15430 Endeavour Drive, Jupiter, FL 33478 -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:09:32 -0400 Starshar stars...@comcast.net wrote: Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... Cheers, indi I KNEW it-*^%*@ /Comcast WAS acting up again! I went about 36 hours with no email from this list, and probably other sources as well, judging by far lower email volume. Yes, Indi, I think you are pointing the finger in exactly the right direction. I'm glad to see this confirmation of my suspicions! Sharon I switched to using Gmail yesterday, they also host email for a domain I own. So far my experience with them has been quite positive. I have come to truly despise comcast. It's great when it's actually working is the best I can say of it. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring IS Guessing
At 12:54 PM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote: One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. By definition, a qualified chemist or lab tech can indeed do just that. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations If all you have is silver, water and it's various combinations, there is little doubt what is being measured. Since there are other environmental elements involved, those other elements must be controlled and they CAN BE controlled with some care and elimination of samples. An EC meter will not tell you what they are, but it can be used to monitor *change* in EC and make *comparisons* in the same sealed sample over time. Under the same conditions, samples that do change their EC reading are eliminated as contaminated...it's the ones that don't that are of interest. You eliminate variables to get a commonality. If they ALL change, then the *conditions* must be reconsidered. That's setting up the parameters of reasonable accuracy while considering the limitations of the tools being used. You CAN work around limitations with eliminations. Better tools may reveal why the changed samples changed, but that's not the commonality when not all of them do. You CAN get good results with bad tools. If you've ever dealt with laboratories, you'll know that data is not absolute either..it's just a better guess than average...and they DO average it. I don't sell meters because people insist on believing that a PPM meter measures PPM.it doesn't. I wind up spending hours un twisting contexts, explaining what they actually DO do, and what they won't do. If someone *buys* a meter despite not being sold one, there's a better chance that they know what to do with it. But I still cringe a little when I pack one up. Science is a matter of educated guess over blind faith, there are no absolutes. I never said there were...YOU said that, then claimed that I did, then tried to prove it with no evidence. I say: ..it's ALL magic. Science is repeatable magic made by eliminating the more un repeatable. Commonalities within parameters But even that is a hierarchy of probability. In the subatomic realms, the very bottom of the reality pot the measuring itself, creates what is being measured... and the space/time in which to measure it. It all comes down to probably repeatable fantasy vs random fantasy. There is no **proof** that ANYTHING even EXISTS, only evidence gathered by elimination. [The function of every sense depends entirely upon what it eliminates from perception] Evidence doesn't prove anything, it only points out common sets of probability by shucking the uncommon. Anecdotal evidence works the same way. You listen to a thousand stories and look for what they have in common while eliminating what they don't have in common, thus establishing a set of probabilities to look into deeper with more detailed eliminations. Anecdotal evidence contains data. Sensory perception is a HORRIBLY inaccurate measuring tool, but it works well enough to create cohesive realities held in common, BECAUSE. it is based upon the process of elimination. Measure it with a string, mark it with a crayon and cut it with a chain saw, then compare pieces to find the center. [Cut and try] That's a long way around differences, but it's every bit as accurate as a computer guided laser. LOL, then the Doors of Perception turn into windows and you find there is no distance for there to be a difference between. All perceivable motion is spin finding the center of a fantasy to argue into a semblance of a common existence. Ode An EC meter reveals *conductivity*; only proper chemical analysis can reveal *what* we are measuring the conductivity of. Come on now, this is really elementary stuff. Either we have data, or we have anecdotal evidence, but we do not *call* anecdotal evidence data if we wish to be honest. Sincerely, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date: 10/18/2008 6:01 PM
Re: CSConscious vs the Unconscious
cking...@nycap.rr.com wrote: No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1725 - Release Date: 10/14/2008 9:25 PM I agree, negatives are a big problem. The subconcious does not seem to understand negatives, and seems to throw them out. For instance if you concentration that you do NOT want to be poor, the subconcious takes it as you WANT to be poor. Affirmations are desirable. Concentrating on negatives brings them into being. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moons revisited
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp Interesting! Your Type is INTJ Strength of the preferences % Introverted 67 Intuitive 50 Thinking 62 Judging 1 http://keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirseyf=fourtempstab=5c=mastermindINTJ http://keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirseyf=fourtempstab=5c=mastermindtype description by D.Keirsey [Rational mastermind ] http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67SN=-50TF=62JP=0.6INTJ http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67SN=-50TF=62JP=0.6Identify Your Career with Jung Career Indicator http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67SN=-50TF=62JP=0.6 http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67SN=-50TF=62JP=0.6INTJ http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67SN=-50TF=62JP=0.6Famous Personalities http://typelogic.com/intj.htmlINTJ http://typelogic.com/intj.htmltype description by J. Butt and M.M. Heiss INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know. Qualitative analysis of your type formula You are: * distinctively expressed introvert * moderately expressed intuitive personality * distinctively expressed thinking personality * slightly expressed judging personality At 12:21 PM 10/18/2008 -0500, you wrote: I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine someones personality type from postings you can get some indications. Indi, I would guess you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an INTP. Google the type or MBTI and you will get more info than you want. The point I want to make is not your type but to point out that you both have different personalities that color your view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. We each will look at what Ode has done and make our own evaluation of the methods and results independently. I appreciate the information Ode has provided since it is information I would not have otherwise. You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining what is acceptable 'proof' but that does not make any others standard unacceptable as a criteria. You can use your criteria without insisting that everyone else use it too. The problem with hard scientific proof is that is that such proof is often unachievable and that lack of such proof if required prevents release of otherwise useful information. Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data. - Steve N - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008 Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :) As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when your testing is so rudimentary. Feelings, anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit. Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't. :) indi On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote: - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Quote: [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms).] In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable and precise manner. I for one would certainly be most grateful in the knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other than the instrument I currently use. If you know something I don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved with EICS..in their own homes. It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out and get one, but
Re: CSAnecdotal versus laboratory testing methods
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:29:47 +0100 Dee d...@deetroy.org wrote: I had a thought about this. Didn't the latter come about because it became somewhat 'undesirable' to test things actually on people? In the early days when things like bella donna and arsenic were used, they must have tested the doses on people in order to decide what were the beneficial amounts to take, mustn't they? I presume the poor were used as they would have been expendable in those dark times, as they were used for a lot of experimentation. By this thinking, I would have thought that anecdotal evidence and experience, should be superior to laboratory testing because the results are irrefutable. There are too many variables in laboratory tests to be accurate when it comes to people actually *using* stuff. Take Vioxx for example, and Thalidomide. *They* were presumably laboratory tested, but look at the disasters caused when given to people! Just a notion. dee I believe you are addressing the question can a laboratory model make accurate predictions about the effect of a given substance on a human body? (to which the answer is, of course, once in a blue moon:)). That is a very different question from what is the exact chemical composition of a given substance and how does it behave over time?. In fact, your question is surely more relevant to most of us. Unfortunately, clinical double-blind studies are expensive to conduct, and most of them are financed by companies who make their money from patent medicines, or researchers working with grant money, so they have a powerful incentive to skew the results of these studies (it's either re-qualify for the grant money or get this product approved), and also often to avoid head-to-head comparisons of (for example) CS and vancomycin. But the corruption rampant in the pharmaceutical industry should not be read as an indictment of scientific method. The problem is Big Pharma doing science theater rather than real science. For instance the clinical studies *did* catch the big problems with Vioxx, and the manufacturer simply covered it up. This sort of thing happens all the time in the pharmaceutical industry. So perhaps it is not unreasonable to consider anecdotal evidence more trustworthy than information from the FDA or Upjohn, but it's still not as reliable as the scientific method. That correlation does not imply causation has been more than adequately proven. OTOH, where there is smoke there is fire does work a lot of times, too. :) Just my $.02... indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? I mean, geez... you're getting results from CS so I'd assume that you have gotten proof as to what's in the CS you are taking? If so, could you kindly share this proof? As for my crazy, loony self, I'll just continue to trust in the CS I've been making for years now. Seems to work as well even when it's several years old. AND I'll continue to recommend it to family and friends as the opportunity presents itself. I've always heard that the Proof is in the puddingMy CS pudding really works, even though I have no proof as to why Ruth - Original Message - From: Indi To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. By definition, a qualified chemist or lab tech can indeed do just that. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations An EC meter reveals *conductivity*; only proper chemical analysis can reveal *what* we are measuring the conductivity of. Come on now, this is really elementary stuff. Either we have data, or we have anecdotal evidence, but we do not *call* anecdotal evidence data if we wish to be honest. Look, too many people are taking what I said the wrong way. It may be proof enough for you, but it isn't actual *proof*. Just as I am satisfied that CS is curing me from MRSA, but if I write a medical paper about that and submit it to the medical journals I'll be laughed at because I have no actual *proof*. Let's face facts here: if we are not objective enough to recognize the difference between data and anecdotal evidence, then we are just crackpots, and the crackpots issuing absolute statements are the whole reason I waited over a year from the time I first heard of CS until I started using it. I feel personally harmed by that kind of thing, and it is certainly more than conceivable that many people are harmed in this way. Therefore I implore you all, let's be reasonable and honest and let's learn to recognize the difference between hard data and anecdotal evidence. Otherwise, we risk doing suffering humanity a disservice. Wouldn't it be so much nicer (and useful) if, when I'd first read about CS, I'd come away thinking Well, those people have no real data, but they certainly seem sincere -- maybe they're on to something? But no, I was left thinking, what a bunch of loonies!, because of all the absolute statements and unsubstantiable claims presented as data. I had to get really, desperately, on-my-last-legs ill before I tried it, and even then I probably wouldn't have except a friend whom I'd discussed it with bought it for me. Now I'm a believer, but I *still* do not know what I do not know, and I recognize that. That is important! Please -- do not be one of the crrazies responsible for driving reasonable people who are suffering away from CS. Many suffer, and they need the benefit of our experience. But they will not get that if our experience comes wrapped in hyperbolic, fantastical, stories purporting to be facts. If we could all be a little more Joe Friday (just the facts, Ma'm) we could do much more good in the world. If I've offended you, I apologize, but as you may have figured out by now the principles at stake here are rather dear to my heart. I want to contribute, not just muddy the (already quite unclear) waters. Okay, now: I'm stepping away from the soap box, and will not speak on this further unless replied to directly. Only you can decide what's important to you. Sincerely, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
M. G. Devour wrote: Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. Carbonic acid. Then the ionic silver reacts with that and produces silver carbonate. If there happens to be a lightning storm around, then there will be oxides of nitrogen in the air that get absorbed as well, producing silver nitrate. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 07:49:16 -5 M. G. Devour mdev...@eskimo.com wrote: I wrote: Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. Indi replies: Yes well, the idea that we actually make containers which contain only H2O and silver is a misconception, as you yourself have just pointed out. Yes, but your contention that we cannot achieve any kind of effective air-tight seal is quite misconcieved as well. I've seen plastic pop bottles filled with water on a warm day in the fall and left in the trunk of a car over an entire winter, collapse as the weather got cold, *stay* that way for months even as they underwent numerous freeze-thaw cycles, and return to their original volume the first equally warm day in the spring. I've personally sampled home-canned fruit that was at least 20 years old and still well-sealed and safely edible. I've also designed, built and operated vacuum equipment with everything from O-ring seals and rough pumps to cryo-pumped ultra-high-vacuum systems with conflat flanges. I'm aware that there are detectable leak rates across various sealing materials and diffusion of hydrogen and helium through metals and glass. All of my experiences back up Ken's off-the-cuff report: Although it's theoretically possible, in fact inevitable, that some exchange of gas molecules between the interior and exterior of a filled container will take place, at near-atmospheric pressures and for all practical purposes the amounts are NOT significant as long as the seals are functioning as they're designed. If you are concerned about effects down in the 10^-12 range, don't bother. They are not meaningful in this discussion. Nothing we do here is that precise, nor does it need to be. As I said, without proper chemical analysis one cannot be sure of the exact content, and it is exceedingly unlikely that what we make to start with is pure H2O and silver only, or that the solution stored in simple jars will remain unchanged for very long. Once whatever dissolved gases included in the closed container have finished doing whatever they're going to do over the first few days, long term changes appear to be minimal, based on more reports than just Ken's. Given how sensitive electrical conductivity happens to be to even slight changes in conditions or composition, getting two readings even roughly the same months apart is a pretty strong indicator that things haven't changed significantly. In our experience, that's the nature of the beast when you're talking about conductivity. While the exact value of your readings may not be all that close to some theoretical ideal measurement, comparative readings are in fact pretty sensitive to changes. That is my point, and I certainly cannot yield it, I'd be lying. Well, you're welcome to your position, but in the absence of actual experiences contradicting the rest of us, I'll take a wait-and-see attitude on your assertions, okay? grin That's fine, but I think you may have misunderstood the nature of the discussion. I am aware that to some it may have looked like I was picking on Ode (Is Ode whom you call Ken, or did I misidentify someone? I'm a bit confused about that now), but in fact there was an insistence that I accept unproven conclusions based on rudimentary observation as fact, followed by a stream of defensive argument largely based on misconceptions. I don't like to argue very much actually, but I was compelled to do so due to certain ideas (which I will not mention, wishing to be done with it) being presented as facts. I'd have been happy to let it go days ago, personally, and I think If all my emails did get through that is apparent. In short, I don't feel I was the one pushing anything, I just cannot be forced to agree with things I know are unlikely to be true. Anyway, I see you are trying to establish a neutral middle ground, and I appreciate that. You're a good moderator. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... As near as I can tell from here, all your posts made it through, including the one you re-sent when you didn't see it. (Which is understandable given the circumstances.) Three people have now reported to me that COMCAST has once again been intermittently blocking messages from the list server. Surely there is a special place in hell for comcast executives... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at:
CSOlder CS
Hey Faith, I have used my homemade CS I had stored for 4+ years and it has worked as well as my freshly made CS. I do this once in a while to try to see how long the effectiveness lasts, and to rotate my stock so to speak. For what it's worth, my old stuff worked as well as the fresh did for me and other family members and friends. I always keep LOTS (sorry no scientific numbers as to how much) on hand, some of it several years old, as back-up in case of emergencies. It's very comforting to know that my 4+ year old CS works as well as my fresh (in my experience - more years in other peoples experience) in case I need it down the road. Hope this helps some. Ruth - Original Message - From: Faith Gagne To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:18 PM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Dear indi: Thank you very much for your efforts. I think, after all, that you are right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are discussing this. Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS when stored for a while, and wonder how much it has changed, and what its present condition is. I personally cannot afford to get lab analysis on older CS. I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to keep it before chucking it and making some new. Thanks again. Faith G.
CSCS DATA
Re: CSblue moons revisited From: Norton, Steve To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data. - Steve N DITTO that!! Ruth
Re: CSblue moons revisited
LOL and welcome to the loony bin!!! Ruth From: Indi To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:33 PM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Maybe part of my discomfort lies in the fact that I've become one of the people I used to poke fun at, LOL. Cheers, indi
Re: CSOlder CS
Hi Ruth. Yes, your message helps a lot. I was beginning to worry, not that I've had any CS around for 4 years, nor even 1 year. Thanks a lot for your input.These discussions are good, and I believe, necessary. Faith G. - Original Message - From: Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:53 AM Subject: CSOlder CS Hey Faith, I have used my homemade CS I had stored for 4+ years and it has worked as well as my freshly made CS. I do this once in a while to try to see how long the effectiveness lasts, and to rotate my stock so to speak. For what it's worth, my old stuff worked as well as the fresh did for me and other family members and friends. I always keep LOTS (sorry no scientific numbers as to how much) on hand, some of it several years old, as back-up in case of emergencies. It's very comforting to know that my 4+ year old CS works as well as my fresh (in my experience - more years in other peoples experience) in case I need it down the road. Hope this helps some. Ruth - Original Message - From: Faith Gagne To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:18 PM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Dear indi: Thank you very much for your efforts. I think, after all, that you are right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are discussing this. Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS when stored for a while, and wonder how much it has changed, and what its present condition is. I personally cannot afford to get lab analysis on older CS. I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to keep it before chucking it and making some new. Thanks again. Faith G. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription... Of course, some people don't care about all that. The planet's over-populated anyway, right? I'm healthy; screw them, right? But for those of us who do care, anti-intellectualism is not the answer. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moons revisited
One thing at a time. You have claimed that sunlight turns silver ions into particles after the process is complete. No, I never said that at all. I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the sun. ## THERE..you just said it...again. I also never claimed to have verified this with instrumentation, just pointed out that according to what I know, that should do it (I leave the lid off for speedier results, in case you were wondering). Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter which element we're discussing. They will react with other compounds at their first opportunity. ## What other compounds? AND they'll do that, sun or not if they are there. Once a range of other compounds are made, they MIGHT be photo reactive, but that's a whole other subject. None of the possible compounds made with Oxygen, Hydrogen and Silver are photo reactive. Silver ions do not change unless there something else for them to change with. A silver ion cannot even become a metallic silver particle unless it gains an electron. There are no free electrons in water. There is a set of events that can add an electron that does involve sunlight, but the sunlight is not a direct cause. The glass of the container interacts with the light, not the silver ion. So yes, I am assuming my method to be sufficient. ## You have not described a method, nor have you backed it with ANY information. But, I don't think I ever claimed otherwise. I have not seen that happen..within the limits of observation, of course. I have seen TE increase over a few days with or without sunlight...sunlight irrelevant...contaminants relevant...normal Hydroxide and Oxide reactions relevant, accomplished with or without sunlight, but once completed, unchanged for years and years in any observable manner, sunlight or none. By what mechanism is that possible? Premis: If it's absolutely impossible, I'm just not going to observe it happening. Since I haven't seen it happen, I'd like to know how it's possible. Explain within a context that excludes other elements which may or may not be there. We are dealing with Hydrogen, Oxygen, Silver, any of their possible compounds and light...after power has been removed and after the presumably pure product has stabilized. How can light change an ion in a manner that it won't change without light? Light is a common catalyst in chemical reactions, whie any ion is just dying to react with whatever it can by its very nature. Also, you are mistaken about the nature of sealing containers. Screwing the lid back on an empty food jar does not seal it (packing plants do more than just screw lids on). And finally, fluctuation in barometric pressure most assuredly is the cause of gasses passing just such an imperfect barrier. ## You are mixing your contexts. Some silver compounds will use light as a catalyst...true. A silver ion is not a compound Ignoring that one..., nor are any of the possible compounds any of those that can use light to change into something else. Assuming imperfect barrier, what silver compounds can be formed that use light as catalyst given the addition of normal elements found in air? None. You may get more oxides, no light needed and not photo reactive. That will change an EC reading. You may get increased acidification of the water with more dissolved carbon dioxide and that will change an EC reading some. Nitrates could **possibly** form with UV radiation, but glass and water blocks most if not all UV. and that will change an EC reading. But if it didn't change, what then? The thing is, the seal is irrelevant. If it has leaked and has contaminated the sample, that sample is discarded because it has changed. It's the ones that don't change that count. Perfect or not, the seal was sufficient. There is no such thing as a perfect seal. Really, you should just rephrase your original claim. You *believe* your solution was unchanged after five years; your EC meter test may be all you need to consider that a fact, but you have not proven it. I encourage you to spend some quality time at the library or with Google, these answers are not quite as rare as hen's teeth... I believe you are sincere Ode, and I wish you well. I do not want to go around and around with you on these matters; it's as simple as definitive proof vs belief. ## I believe that you are sincere too, but your preponderance of proof using broad undefined generalities against a set of specific conditions defies the rational. NOTHING is absolutely provable. To pick another nit, all there IS, is belief. What is it based on? Theory undefined or experience? If you have had a different experience describe it so that I may look into it myself. You don't learn ANYTHING till you are wrong. If there is any embarrassment involved, I'll get over it...wouldn't be the first time. ..and it's not like I haven't experienced the extremely WEIRD on
Re: CSblue moons revisited
PPM and color..one of those theories taken as gospel that holds no water. Particle size and colorincomplete. Not this or that, but this and that. ode At 07:56 AM 10/19/2008 +1030, you wrote: Hi there Faith, I have both an EC/TDS blah blah meter and a, 'supposedly', ppm meter. The only reason I use any of them is cos I just don't trust the colour business as much as some form of instrument, and no matter how criticised they are. It seems the accepted thing is that slight colour indicates a particular ppm range but I find that doesn't work all the time, not bothered anyway, its much more convenient for me to just use a meter, (besides, it looks real scientific too g), and I don't give a hoot really about precision so long as I get it within a 'range'. After all, EICS is not rocket science to the majority of people is it, they just want to 'make it and take it'. Even though it's suggested colour is evident at 10-15ppm I have made a batch in the past of 17ppm, (well it was 21 initially!), and it remained clear for a couple of months, which is how long it would have lasted till I needed to make another batch. M...maybe my 'lil ol' home made generators are better than I realise g. Cheers Neville. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:46:30 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Carbonic acid. Then the ionic silver reacts with that and produces silver carbonate. If there happens to be a lightning storm around, then there will be oxides of nitrogen in the air that get absorbed as well, producing silver nitrate. I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Sorry for the caps if it was offensive to anyone. This IS a community of caring individuals otherwise we wouldn't be privy to the vast knowledge and testing from several individuals on this list. The intellects (and us not-so-intellects) of this list DO care very much about the well-being of people and animals. And if we lived in a perfect world, we could have doctors recommending CS (but then would Big Pharma be there too, to try and ban CS because they can't profit from it like they can synthetic antibiotics?). As to the Who cares... What difference does it make... Well, I DO care, but I trust what I've learned and what I have experienced over the last several years. Guess it's like owning a car - I don't know all the workings, etc. of the thing, but if I go to those in the know and learn from various experiences I've had using it, I don't actually have to BE a mechanic. Anti-intellectualism was not an issue in my post. Ruth - Original Message - From: indi To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:39 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription... Of course, some people don't care about all that. The planet's over-populated anyway, right? I'm healthy; screw them, right? But for those of us who do care, anti-intellectualism is not the answer. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:46:30 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Carbonic acid. Then the ionic silver reacts with that and produces silver carbonate. If there happens to be a lightning storm around, then there will be oxides of nitrogen in the air that get absorbed as well, producing silver nitrate. Any arcing, whether from the HVAC or from lightning, will product nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. The amounts in air are minute from lightning, but can be quite high concentration if produced in arcing with HVAC method. Thus the amount of nitrate produced will be very small if from lightning. Marshall I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSblue moons revisited
Hey Steve, I understood that... Dan ;-)) From: Norton, Steve [mailto:stephen.nor...@ngc.com] Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine someones personality type from postings you can get some indications. Indi, I would guess you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an INTP. Google the type or MBTI and you will get more info than you want. The point I want to make is not your type but to point out that you both have different personalities that color your view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. We each will look at what Ode has done and make our own evaluation of the methods and results independently. I appreciate the information Ode has provided since it is information I would not have otherwise. You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining what is acceptable 'proof' but that does not make any others standard unacceptable as a criteria. You can use your criteria without insisting that everyone else use it too. The problem with hard scientific proof is that is that such proof is often unachievable and that lack of such proof if required prevents release of otherwise useful information. Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data. - Steve N - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008 Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :) As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when your testing is so rudimentary. Feelings, anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit. Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't. :) indi On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote: - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Quote: [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms).] In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable and precise manner. I for one would certainly be most grateful in the knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other than the instrument I currently use. If you know something I don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved with EICS..in their own homes. It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps we can all go out and get one. N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:59:14 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Sorry for the caps if it was offensive to anyone. No, not offensive. It did make me laugh, though. :) This IS a community of caring individuals otherwise we wouldn't be privy to the vast knowledge and testing from several individuals on this list. That I do know, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. The intellects (and us not-so-intellects) of this list DO care very much about the well-being of people and animals. And if we lived in a perfect world, we could have doctors recommending CS (but then would Big Pharma be there too, to try and ban CS because they can't profit from it like they can synthetic antibiotics?). Yes, I agree. If CS becomes popular enough, we will see Big Pharma improving on it with proprietary manufacturing processes and lots of statistics claiming to be data to show their superiority. Kind of like what we see now, but with bigger budgets and government sanction. Still, that would probably be an enormous improvement over a lot of what is currently offered by Big Pharma. As to the Who cares... What difference does it make... Well, I DO care, I knew you did, actually. :) but I trust what I've learned and what I have experienced over the last several years. Guess it's like owning a car - I don't know all the workings, etc. of the thing, but if I go to those in the know and learn from various experiences I've had using it, I don't actually have to BE a mechanic. That's certainly true enough (though my Dad wouldn't buy that back when it was time for me to learn to drive, LOL). Anti-intellectualism was not an issue in my post. Also true. Sorry, I kind of used your message as a springboard to make my point. It was somewhat bad form, and I apologize if I offended you. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:06:47 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Any arcing, whether from the HVAC or from lightning, will product nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. The amounts in air are minute from lightning, but can be quite high concentration if produced in arcing with HVAC method. Thus the amount of nitrate produced will be very small if from lightning. Thanks. I thought maybe there was something more exotic and potentially harmful of which I was unaware. Basically then, the danger is just formation of NO2 from oxidation of nitric oxide? If I'm not mistaken one can taste and smell that, so a person wouldn't be likely to ingest much. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSAnecdotal versus laboratory testing methods
Yes this corruption was highlighted when the tobacco industries (who funded the trials) told us all that tobacco was actually *good* for us! dee indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:29:47 +0100 Dee d...@deetroy.org wrote: In fact, your question is surely more relevant to most of us. Unfortunately, clinical double-blind studies are expensive to conduct, and most of them are financed by companies who make their money from patent medicines, or researchers working with grant money, so they have a powerful incentive to skew the results of these studies (it's either re-qualify for the grant money or get this product approved), and also often to avoid head-to-head comparisons of (for example) CS and vancomycin. But the corruption rampant in the pharmaceutical industry should not be read as an indictment of scientific method. The problem is Big Pharma doing science theater rather than real science. For instance the clinical studies *did* catch the big problems with Vioxx, and the manufacturer simply covered it up. This sort of thing happens all the time in the pharmaceutical industry. So perhaps it is not unreasonable to consider anecdotal evidence more trustworthy than information from the FDA or Upjohn, but it's still not as reliable as the scientific method. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSLab test, age, etc.
Good post, Dee. I did my own 'unscientific' test. As a newbie, I read all of the stuff about storage, colored glass, storing in a cupboard out of light, etc. I put some CS from one of my first batches in a small, clear, glass jar w/a metal lid and set it in a sunny window. It was there for at least 5 years. It remained clear and there was never any sediment. When I thought of it, I'd taste it. It never changed as far as I could tell. I finally decided it was a silly test and used it for mouthwash. What finally convinced me to buy my first generator was a report from Brigham Young giving their test results on umpteen pathogens. Was that not 'scientific' information? It was certainly done in a lab. It's been too many years ago for me to remember where I read what but I'd swear there was lots of other info that did not come from anyone selling CS. Didn't Brooks do a whole bunch of tests in his own lab? Maybe my memory is bad - wish I could get the CS to fix that! Paula -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moons revisited
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:11:33 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Thanks, Ruth. :) LOL and welcome to the loony bin!!! Ruth From: Indi To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:33 PM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Maybe part of my discomfort lies in the fact that I've become one of the people I used to poke fun at, LOL. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSLab test, age, etc.
thanks Paula. As far as I'm concerned, I have used CS for a couple of years now and have introduced many people to it. We all have had spectacular results. I have used it on my dogs too and my friends dogs, and animals can't be fooled into thinking they are well when they aren't. This to me is proof enough, and I don't need any 'scientific' data to tell me what my own commonsense tells me. I do know there are many drugs on the market which have been laboratoy tested and given the green light for safety and efficacy, and many either do not work, or have ghastly side effects. To me this makes a nonsense of the whole thing, although I take Indi's point about the corruption in the pharmaceutical industry. My CS doesn't last long enough for me to do the test that you did, but I may do one of my own to test the theory. The one I gave my friend was one I had bought from a good source three years ago, and that worked wonderfully well, so that is the bottom line for me too. dee Paula wrote: Good post, Dee. I did my own 'unscientific' test. As a newbie, I read all of the stuff about storage, colored glass, storing in a cupboard out of light, etc. I put some CS from one of my first batches in a small, clear, glass jar w/a metal lid and set it in a sunny window. It was there for at least 5 years. It remained clear and there was never any sediment. When I thought of it, I'd taste it. It never changed as far as I could tell. I finally decided it was a silly test and used it for mouthwash. What finally convinced me to buy my first generator was a report from Brigham Young giving their test results on umpteen pathogens. Was that not 'scientific' information? It was certainly done in a lab. It's been too many years ago for me to remember where I read what but I'd swear there was lots of other info that did not come from anyone selling CS. Didn't Brooks do a whole bunch of tests in his own lab? Maybe my memory is bad - wish I could get the CS to fix that! Paula -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Evening Neville, I have been out of town for 3 days, and you are getting ahead. grin At 11:54 AM 10/18/2008, you wrote: One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. As my teacher said, when your mothers says, All the kids like spinish, tell her to name 3. So, you can name 3 methods ! You are living in the dark ages my friend. Precise or absolute, does not even matter in this case. Nothing I say is silly, unless I intend for it to be. Not one Scientist or chemist or CS maker can measure the ppm, with a TWO BIT EC Meter. ( Even the instrument manufactures tell you that, .. no ppm meter exists ) Unless, they have many dollars worth of lab equipment, and likely then, they will not know how to use it. It takes many thousands of dollars worth of equipment and special trained technician to operate it, as Ode made very clear That is as plain and clear as I can make it. How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? Wayne -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSblue moon Types, ??
Evening Steve, At 12:21 PM 10/18/2008, you wrote: Interesting message and almost funny. I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine someones personality type from postings you can get some indications. Indi, I would guess you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an INTP. Google the type or MBTI and you will get more info than you want. Does it cost more to get my type ? I don't even care. I know which Rooster can pull a Wagon, Before I hitch him up. That is all that matters, most of the time. Wayne The point I want to make is not your type but to point out that you both have different personalities that color your view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. We each will look at what Ode has done and make our own evaluation of the methods and results independently. I appreciate the information Ode has provided since it is information I would not have otherwise. You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining what is acceptable 'proof' but that does not make any others standard unacceptable as a criteria. You can use your criteria without insisting that everyone else use it too. The problem with hard scientific proof is that is that such proof is often unachievable and that lack of such proof if required prevents release of otherwise useful information. Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data. - Steve N - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008 Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :) As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when your testing is so rudimentary. Feelings, anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit. Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't. :) indi On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote: - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Quote: [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms).] In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable and precise manner. I for one would certainly be most grateful in the knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other than the instrument I currently use. If you know something I don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved with EICS..in their own homes. It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps we can all go out and get one. N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.orghttp://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:13:43 -0500 Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com wrote: Howdy Wayne, Not one Scientist or chemist or CS maker can measure the ppm, with a TWO BIT EC Meter. ( Even the instrument manufactures tell you that, .. no ppm meter exists ) Unless, they have many dollars worth of lab equipment, and likely then, they will not know how to use it. It takes many thousands of dollars worth of equipment and special trained technician to operate it, as Ode made very clear That is as plain and clear as I can make it. Yes, and actually that is exactly what I said. So we have no argument there. :) How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? I am stuck with guessing, at present -- like everyone else here. However, that is completely beside the point I was trying to make. The absence of hard data does not magically convert anecdotal evidence into data. Some people certainly have been a bit touchy about that, but this is not supposed to be an emotional issue -- it's a simple discussion of what is known versus what is presumed, a distinction I originally *presumed* we all were qualified to make (I do know better now, LOL). I presume CS is helping get well, but if the only proof I have is that I am getting well, then there is much more to be discovered before I can have it witnessed, written up, and submitted it to the medical journals. There could be innumerable other explanations for the improvement in my condition. I personally *believe* it's the CS. That will not win me any arguments in scientific circles though... My former doctor was happy to see me getting better, but he isn't telling his other patients to look into CS. And *that* is the bottom line here, as far as I'm concerned. It isn't like some people seem to think, that all doctors are evil, that college makes people stupid, that science is a form of superstition, etc. No, it's a simple lack of hard data perpetuated largely by a combination of Big Pharma, unscrupulous vendors, and crackpots making extravagant claims that keeps the virtues of CS a secret most will never learn. Or at least, that's how I see it... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moon Types, ??
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:27:50 -0500 Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com wrote: I know which Rooster can pull a Wagon, Before I hitch him up. I wish I could get a rooster to pull a wagon, that would be a lot cheaper than putting gas in my tractor! indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring IS Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:42:59 -0400 Ode Coyote odecoy...@alltel.net wrote: If all you have is silver, water and it's various combinations, That's rather large if, and you keep choosing to ignore it. If one proceeds to build a mountain of logic upon a fragile premise one can create quite a labyrinth in which to wander (don't you just hate that?). I really cannot agree with you Ode, no matter how hard you try to force me to accept your premise as the basis for your conclusions. It isn't personal. You are free to disagree, it isn't necessary for you to prove anything to me. I feel you have just taken this whole discussion the wrong way, frankly. The bottom line here is, we probably both fall into the know enough to be dangerous category anyway. IMHO. :) Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring IS Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:15:00 -0400 indi indi.sha...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:42:59 -0400 Ode Coyote odecoy...@alltel.net wrote: If all you have is silver, water and it's various combinations, That's rather large if, and you keep choosing to ignore it. If one proceeds to build a mountain of logic upon a fragile premise one can create quite a labyrinth in which to wander (don't you just hate that?). I really cannot agree with you Ode, no matter how hard you try to force me to accept your premise as the basis for your conclusions. It isn't personal. You are free to disagree, it isn't necessary for you to prove anything to me. I feel you have just taken this whole discussion the wrong way, frankly. The bottom line here is, we probably both fall into the know enough to be dangerous category anyway. IMHO. :) Cheers, indi PS: I know enough to be dangerous is a humorous colloquialism where I come from, I don't mean to imply that either of us is literally dangerous. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSblue moon Types, ??
Wayne, I got close on one out of two. Hate to risk that record but ESTP for you? Why funny? It was clear to me that Indi and Ode have strong but different personalities. Ode is a strong intuitive and Indi needs hard facts. Indi will never be satisfied with intuitive reasoning and Ode sees no need for proving physics once his intuition is satisfied. Neither personality is in general better than the other. Ode would excel where decisions need to be made quickly with a minimal amount of information. But you wouldn't necessarily want Ode designing the launch and targeting circuitry for a nuclear ICBM where the slightest error could cause Armageddon. You would want Indi for that job. But I don't see them ever agreeing on the subject at hand. - Steve N -Original Message- From: Wayne Fugitt [mailto:cwf...@fugitt.com] Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:28 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSblue moon Types, ?? Evening Steve, At 12:21 PM 10/18/2008, you wrote: Interesting message and almost funny. I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine someones personality type from postings you can get some indications. Indi, I would guess you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an INTP. Google the type or MBTI and you will get more info than you want. Does it cost more to get my type ? I don't even care. I know which Rooster can pull a Wagon, Before I hitch him up. That is all that matters, most of the time. Wayne The point I want to make is not your type but to point out that you both have different personalities that color your view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. We each will look at what Ode has done and make our own evaluation of the methods and results independently. I appreciate the information Ode has provided since it is information I would not have otherwise. You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining what is acceptable 'proof' but that does not make any others standard unacceptable as a criteria. You can use your criteria without insisting that everyone else use it too. The problem with hard scientific proof is that is that such proof is often unachievable and that lack of such proof if required prevents release of otherwise useful information. Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data. - Steve N - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008 Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :) As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when your testing is so rudimentary. Feelings, anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit. Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't. :) indi On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote: - Original Message - From: Indi indule...@comcast.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited Quote: [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms).] In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable and precise manner. I for one would certainly be most grateful in the knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other than the instrument I currently use. If you know something I don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved with EICS..in their own homes. It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Quote: [If CS becomes popular enough, we will see Big Pharma improving on it with proprietary manufacturing processes and lots of statistics claiming to be data to show their superiority. Kind of like what we see now, but with bigger budgets and government sanction. Still, that would probably be an enormous improvement over a lot of what is currently offered by Big Pharma.] While anything would probably be an improvement on what pharma has to offer currently, with some valid exceptions I spose, if they ever did get into it I have to wonder what truck load of side effects or issues 'their' CS product would bring as it would not be as 'pure' as I produce in my own kitchen. My guess is that there would be 'additives' that would be included for the purpose of marketing. If so then you would not be buying 'pure' EICS as I know it and produce it so I for one wouldn't be buying any of it anyway, even if they sold it for $1 a 44 gallon drum. I'll never go past what I produce myself as I know exactly what's in it, (from a lay-mans point of view of course). But then again there would probably still be a queue outside the chemist shop simply because it's a chemist shop, and whatever they have on offer 'must be good' because they, or governing bodies say so, and I know how caring all of that lot are for my well being! g Perhaps this could be a good thing though as most people line up for pharma drugs knowing of their side effects so it may give EICS real legitimacy, in some whacked out screwed up sense. People are funny like that. N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Hi there Wayne, hope you enjoyed your 3 day fishing trip g Hey, I hope there are two Nevilles here, either that or you're under the mistaken belief I am posting these quotes you keep assigning to me. g I can get into enough trouble on my own thanks very much, without the assistance of others! bg N. - Original Message - From: Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:43 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Evening Neville, I have been out of town for 3 days, and you are getting ahead. grin At 11:54 AM 10/18/2008, you wrote: One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. As my teacher said, when your mothers says, All the kids like spinish, tell her to name 3. So, you can name 3 methods ! You are living in the dark ages my friend. Precise or absolute, does not even matter in this case. Nothing I say is silly, unless I intend for it to be. Not one Scientist or chemist or CS maker can measure the ppm, with a TWO BIT EC Meter. ( Even the instrument manufactures tell you that, .. no ppm meter exists ) Unless, they have many dollars worth of lab equipment, and likely then, they will not know how to use it. It takes many thousands of dollars worth of equipment and special trained technician to operate it, as Ode made very clear That is as plain and clear as I can make it. How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? Wayne -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:33:08 +1030 Neville nevillem...@bigpond.com wrote: - Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Quote: [If CS becomes popular enough, we will see Big Pharma improving on it with proprietary manufacturing processes and lots of statistics claiming to be data to show their superiority. Kind of like what we see now, but with bigger budgets and government sanction. Still, that would probably be an enormous improvement over a lot of what is currently offered by Big Pharma.] While anything would probably be an improvement on what pharma has to offer currently, with some valid exceptions I spose, if they ever did get into it I have to wonder what truck load of side effects or issues 'their' CS product would bring as it would not be as 'pure' as I produce in my own kitchen. My guess is that there would be 'additives' that would be included for the purpose of marketing. If so then you would not be buying 'pure' EICS as I know it and produce it so I for one wouldn't be buying any of it anyway, even if they sold it for $1 a 44 gallon drum. I'll never go past what I produce myself as I know exactly what's in it, (from a lay-mans point of view of course). But then again there would probably still be a queue outside the chemist shop simply because it's a chemist shop, and whatever they have on offer 'must be good' because they, or governing bodies say so, and I know how caring all of that lot are for my well being! g Perhaps this could be a good thing though as most people line up for pharma drugs knowing of their side effects so it may give EICS real legitimacy, in some whacked out screwed up sense. People are funny like that. N. :) I can see it now: Our newest drug, Silvcheminol Ag, is the best -- just check out our list of side effects. You won't get that making it at home! A friend of mine, who's a nurse in a burn ward, says silver-lined bandages are in common use now for severe burn patients. I was surprised to hear it, thinking for sure they'd rather push synthetic chemicals than silver. Maybe there's hope for western medicine yet (some distant day). indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSblue moons revisited
Yeah well I got to be honest with you Ode, I've listened and read a lot from many sources so from a personal perspective I've needed to put all that together with what I have experienced myself. Precision doesn't seem to be an option for me with CS, 'guides' and 'ranges' tend to satisfy me for the most part so you pretty much summed it up...not this or that, but this and that. They are my 'guidelines', in the absence of suitable and/or appropriate technology sitting next to the toaster in my kitchen . g N. - Original Message - From: Ode Coyote odecoy...@alltel.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:22 AM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited PPM and color..one of those theories taken as gospel that holds no water. Particle size and colorincomplete. Not this or that, but this and that. ode At 07:56 AM 10/19/2008 +1030, you wrote: Hi there Faith, I have both an EC/TDS blah blah meter and a, 'supposedly', ppm meter. The only reason I use any of them is cos I just don't trust the colour business as much as some form of instrument, and no matter how criticised they are. It seems the accepted thing is that slight colour indicates a particular ppm range but I find that doesn't work all the time, not bothered anyway, its much more convenient for me to just use a meter, (besides, it looks real scientific too g), and I don't give a hoot really about precision so long as I get it within a 'range'. After all, EICS is not rocket science to the majority of people is it, they just want to 'make it and take it'. Even though it's suggested colour is evident at 10-15ppm I have made a batch in the past of 17ppm, (well it was 21 initially!), and it remained clear for a couple of months, which is how long it would have lasted till I needed to make another batch. M...maybe my 'lil ol' home made generators are better than I realise g. Cheers Neville. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Evening Neville, At 04:18 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote: Hey, I hope there are two Nevilles here, either that or you're under the mistaken belief I am posting these quotes you keep assigning to me. g I can get into enough trouble on my own thanks very much, without the assistance of others! bg The list is getting funny and serious at the same time. Must be some software or person mis quoting. Maybe the quote character used is lost, or ? Not sure. I will be more carful. grin Wayne == -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 7:55 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:33:08 +1030 Neville nevillem...@bigpond.com wrote: - Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Quote: [I can see it now: Our newest drug, Silvcheminol Ag, is thebest -- just check out our list of side effects. You won't get that making it at home! indi] LOL! That was good and I'm smiling indi, the worrying thing is it's accurate to boot..and now I'm solemn faced again! Cheers...Neville. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSConscious vs the Unconscious
Hmmm... All prayers are answered; doubt cancels prayer; worry is prayer for things you don't want. - Don Hamerling Chuck What is the definition of endless love? Stevie Wonder Ray Charles playing tennis! On 10/20/2008 10:57:14 AM, Marshall Dudley (mdud...@king-cart.com) wrote: I agree, negatives are a big problem. The subconcious does not seem to understand negatives, and seems to throw them out. For instance if you concentration that you do NOT want to be poor, the subconcious takes it as you WANT to be poor. Affirmations are desirable. Concentrating on negatives brings them into being. Marshall No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Evening Neville, At 04:18 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote: Hey, I hope there are two Nevilles here, either that or you're under the mistaken belief I am posting these quotes you keep assigning to me. g I can get into enough trouble on my own thanks very much, without the assistance of others! bg [The list is getting funny and serious at the same time.] -Well I thought all of us CS users were considered loons anyway so I guess we're all in good company! g [Must be some software or person mis quoting.] - Just put it down to software Wayne, people don't make mistakes. g N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Hmmm... Is indi in reality Mike Monet? Sounds like him. Remember? Chuck de ja fu - The feeling that somewhere, somehow you've been hit in the head like this before. On 10/20/2008 12:39:02 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
One of the high voltage methods used involved an arc being drawn just above the water surface by one of the electrodes. This was found to result in nitric acid being formed. Not really a good thing to ingest regularly. Good design alleviated this. One way was to use a CO2 blanket in the container. There are other ways, too. Chuck Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth On 10/20/2008 12:58:00 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CSblue moons revisited
I think you may still misunderstand me Dee. My comments were in reference to the 'to and fro' discussion, or 'argument' if one wishes to view it that way, between indi and ode. Hope this has cleared it up. N. - Original Message - From: Dee d...@deetroy.org To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:47 PM Subject: Re: CSblue moons revisited I don't think I did. You said that neither can be proved one way or the other, but I have proved beyond any shadow of doubt that EIS works, as have you and thousands of others! Totally different to religion. dee Neville wrote: You totally missed my point, which was that anything can be argued to death, not whether something works or not! N. Neville wrote: Sorry, but just as a point, EICS is in the same catagory to me as religion, consider all the arguements which abound with that subject! When it is all torn down it all comes to the same thing..belief, faith, blindly following, or..conviction! See my point? There is nobody on this planet that can 'prove' one way or the other, it all comes down to the individual and what they believe -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Thanks. I imagine it'd be hard to ingest much of that without knowing something wasn't quite right. Anyway, I am careful to avoid arcing. BTW, I am a woman named Indulekha Sharpe, not some guy named Mike Monet. Cheers, indi On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:02:38 -0400 cking...@nycap.rr.com wrote: One of the high voltage methods used involved an arc being drawn just above the water surface by one of the electrodes. This was found to result in nitric acid being formed. Not really a good thing to ingest regularly. Good design alleviated this. One way was to use a CO2 blanket in the container. There are other ways, too. Chuck Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth On 10/20/2008 12:58:00 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Cool, interesting first name. For all I know, Mike's a female too. You would have liked discussions with him/her. Chuck Peace through superior firepower On 10/20/2008 7:36:29 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: BTW, I am a woman named Indulekha Sharpe, not some guy named Mike Monet. Cheers, indi No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Well and good! Mike Monet was an interesting and knowledgeable electrical engineer, with an enquiring mind and good math skills, was sometimes upset when people didn't see it his way (the ONLY way). You are pushing for the opposite, in that you recognize humans, and the conditions in/by which they try to find things out, vary widely. OTOH, The double-blind cross-controlled experimental study as mandated by the FDA and loved by big pharma is just Marvy, except it assumes we're all just the same, or should be if we know what's good for us. At the sledgehammer level, sure. Most of their meds are in the 5 to 500 mg level. Compared to CS at 10 to 20 ppm that is a sledgehammer for sure. Another flaw in their protocols is that they assume testing a thousand people for one year equals testing 100 people for ten years; taint so M'Gee. One of the virtues of the so-called anecdotal method, besides it makes for good stories, is that the evidence - oh, sorry, experience - is collected over much time and many different situations; it's 'small time' and we can hassle it out ourselves. We don't have the deus ex authoritas of political or scientific regulation stifling our chance to find out for ourselves what works and how it best works for us. Each. Take care, avoid arcing! Malcolm On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 19:36 -0400, indi wrote: Thanks. I imagine it'd be hard to ingest much of that without knowing something wasn't quite right. Anyway, I am careful to avoid arcing. BTW, I am a woman named Indulekha Sharpe, not some guy named Mike Monet. Cheers, indi Chuck Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
