RE: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
You would have a set of weak links at each winch with rings attached and loops already tied. Just slip the loop thru chute ring and over the weak link ring and you are ready to fly. Can't take more than 5 seconds. John -Original Message- From: Michael Lachowski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 9:57 PM To: John Linda Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. Actually, more likely is it will just slow down the contest, replacing the weak links. As I said, it's not the line that's the problem, it's the motor and drum diameter. John Linda wrote: The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Michael, You can still use the heavy lines if you adopt a standard week link extension that would go between the parachute and the plane. That way everyone has the same test week link and if you break it you fly it. That would standardize the launch strength. John -Original Message- From: Michael Lachowski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Everyone loves more power. That's why folks want 6 volt motors. Unfortunately there is no strong reason for folks to move away from the Ford long shaft motors. They are cheap to use to build winches. F3b solves the problem by limiting the winch motor resistance. Of course, it complicates it by the fact that everyone brings thier own winches, which is a good thing. You only have yourself to blame on the winch problems. This allows lines and drum sizes to be selected to optimize the winch for the launching conditions. If you took a F3b winch and put a small diameter drum on it with heavy line, you would not break line and you would not need super strong wings unless it was really blowing. I agree that the maximum (it's not required) line length in the AMA rule books is really silly for a TD contest. It's long enough where current models have to look for sink to not make the 10 minutes. Short lines increase the variability in a contest. A short launch in really bad air may not be enough to escape the sink. So you have to trade off between a landing contest and a luck contest if you just select winches. The only true way to avoid that is to run man on man contests. This takes us back to field size limits and the fact that a lot of pilots don't have thier own winches. The only folks cheering for everyone having there own winches are the poor victims who carry out the winches every weekend for thier clubs and the ones that have to rebuild them after they get abused by everyone else. But, it all comes down to what you do as an individual. If you don't like a contest, you don't have to go to it. If you think you can run a better contest, then go and do it. The fact that we use winches and everyone uses the same winches is what I like about soaring. I think the electric comptition guys are crazy. That ends up being a motor technology race. I'm more interested in the airframe technology and the flying. But then, they do have models that will do a good crash and burn. Sailplane pilots usually have to pick on power lines to do that. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. . RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
At 06:02 AM 10/2/2004, you wrote: You would have a set of weak links at each winch with rings attached and loops already tied. Just slip the loop thru chute ring and over the weak link ring and you are ready to fly. Can't take more than 5 seconds. John memories are short.. the f3b community mandated, then quickly left weak links.. it didn't take long to recognize this idea as a major safety hazard.. nothing like a line break with the plane leaving your hand nose up.. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Where we going with this thread? Limiting the height of a launches by either limiting power of winch or line length? Is this to even the playing field? No big planes? Or to just limit the Big Plane Race? No bigger or stronger planes. Light planes only, planes that do not pull hard or launch high. Altimeters in each plane with a height factor would be an interesting concept. F3J gives an advantage to the pilot who releases early and not necessarily getting a complete launch. Time on the line is time not counting towards your score. F3B has done a nice job of creating an equal launch environment. A big part of F3B is getting a good launch. Many people would not be able to launch properly from an F3B winch. If you can't launch well from a standard TD winch you will have a problem with an F3B winch. And most people would not be able to afford an F3B winch or keep replacing the Monofilament line on it that other people would abuse. (I can hear the whiners now complaining about the cost.) With a crippled launch system you will still find that the pilots that have the best launch technique will be getting the most height. No room for error. Sort of a Launch Contest. I thought the goal was to put emphasis on flying? The solution: Closely matched winches, man on man. That's a contest. I still see the best pilots winning. They launch well, they fly well, they land well. I can do two of the three okay, I just need more practice. But I don't gripe about landings, it's part of the contest. I know what I need to do, practice, practice, practice. Steve Meyer LSF IV SOAR RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Now there's the most common-sense observation conclusion that I've seen yet... I still see the best pilots winning. They launch well, they fly well, they land well...what I need to do, practice, practice, practice We can try to implement any of the ideas or none of the ideas...However, Steve's observation and conclusion will ALWAYS be true. The best pilots will continue to win and they'll win because they practice! Hell, I can afford any of the so-called world-beaters out there...Icon, Pike, you name it! My new world-beater however is not going to guarantee that I can beat JW or DP though. It can help, it might give me opportunities that my Sapphire won't, but the only thing that might get me close is practice, practice, practice...And JW/DP having a REALLY unfortunate problem! G Case in point...I'm sure I can borrow an Icon (or whatever) from someone... I'll let JW/DP use my Sapphire. We can launch MoM and you tell me who YOU think has the best chance of winning! Seriously...Steve has made the correct assessment...So let's stop whining and go practice. Or at least go fly have some fun before the snow starts coming! FWIW - My $.02 -Sheldon- -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. Where we going with this thread? Limiting the height of a launches by either limiting power of winch or line length? Is this to even the playing field? No big planes? Or to just limit the Big Plane Race? No bigger or stronger planes. Light planes only, planes that do not pull hard or launch high. Altimeters in each plane with a height factor would be an interesting concept. F3J gives an advantage to the pilot who releases early and not necessarily getting a complete launch. Time on the line is time not counting towards your score. F3B has done a nice job of creating an equal launch environment. A big part of F3B is getting a good launch. Many people would not be able to launch properly from an F3B winch. If you can't launch well from a standard TD winch you will have a problem with an F3B winch. And most people would not be able to afford an F3B winch or keep replacing the Monofilament line on it that other people would abuse. (I can hear the whiners now complaining about the cost.) With a crippled launch system you will still find that the pilots that have the best launch technique will be getting the most height. No room for error. Sort of a Launch Contest. I thought the goal was to put emphasis on flying? The solution: Closely matched winches, man on man. That's a contest. I still see the best pilots winning. They launch well, they fly well, they land well. I can do two of the three okay, I just need more practice. But I don't gripe about landings, it's part of the contest. I know what I need to do, practice, practice, practice. Steve Meyer LSF IV SOAR RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Steve Meyer wrote: Where we going with this thread? F3B has done a nice job of creating an equal launch environment. A big part of F3B is getting a good launch. Many people would not be able to launch properly from an F3B winch. If you can't launch well from a standard TD winch you will have a problem with an F3B winch. Well a good launch is the first part. You also get to do speed and distance which is typically what decides the contest instead our favorite topic, landings. Man on man flight strategy in distance is a whole other world. Models can gain altitude in lift with ballast and without circling! And most people would not be able to afford an F3B winch or keep replacing the Monofilament line on it that other people would abuse. (I can hear the whiners now complaining about the cost.) F3b winch from F3x - $725,Definitely below the cost of the typical cost of a moldie. Maybe $150 more than the cost of a bagged model. And at most, twice the price of an electric motor/controller/battery that all the potential sailplane pilots who happen to fly electric use. These winches last forever. F3b winches typically have ball bearings and support the drum on both ends and run at lower currents. The only reason mono gets expensive on F3b flying is the need to push the line diameter to the minimum you can get away with. Plus you have the option to relaunch. If you use 180 or 210 lb-test mono on an F3b winch, it will last a long time on grass. And if you use heavy line, it can be tied. Mono is a pain to get in the US because we don't use it. This winch setup seems to work everywhere else in the world, and even in Europe. The solution: Closely matched winches, man on man. That's a contest. Sounds like F3b to me. Plus you don't have to argue about skegs ;:) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Everyone loves more power. That's why folks want 6 volt motors. Unfortunately there is no strong reason for folks to move away from the Ford long shaft motors. They are cheap to use to build winches. F3b solves the problem by limiting the winch motor resistance. Of course, it complicates it by the fact that everyone brings thier own winches, which is a good thing. You only have yourself to blame on the winch problems. This allows lines and drum sizes to be selected to optimize the winch for the launching conditions. If you took a F3b winch and put a small diameter drum on it with heavy line, you would not break line and you would not need super strong wings unless it was really blowing. I agree that the maximum (it's not required) line length in the AMA rule books is really silly for a TD contest. It's long enough where current models have to look for sink to not make the 10 minutes. Short lines increase the variability in a contest. A short launch in really bad air may not be enough to escape the sink. So you have to trade off between a landing contest and a luck contest if you just select winches. The only true way to avoid that is to run man on man contests. This takes us back to field size limits and the fact that a lot of pilots don't have thier own winches. The only folks cheering for everyone having there own winches are the poor victims who carry out the winches every weekend for thier clubs and the ones that have to rebuild them after they get abused by everyone else. But, it all comes down to what you do as an individual. If you don't like a contest, you don't have to go to it. If you think you can run a better contest, then go and do it. The fact that we use winches and everyone uses the same winches is what I like about soaring. I think the electric comptition guys are crazy. That ends up being a motor technology race. I'm more interested in the airframe technology and the flying. But then, they do have models that will do a good crash and burn. Sailplane pilots usually have to pick on power lines to do that. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
- Original Message - From: Michael Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. I agree with Michael. The motor side is the place to limit pull on the winch line, if that is what is desired. There is a simple technique that I have heard has been tried with some success in the past. It involves mounting the winch on a spring loaded pivoting device that electrically limits the force on the line. A microswitch interrupts the circuit between the foot switch and solenoid when the pull on the winch line moves the winch on the pivot against the pull of the spring (the weight of the winch itself is also involved). This cuts power to the winch motor until the line tension lightens enough to allow the spring to pull the winch off of the switch. The spring is adjusted against the pull on the line using a simple spring scale such as is used to set up highstarts to set the trip point. If you just stand on the pedal, the result is a near constant force pulsing of the winch line throughout the launch. Actually the pull slightly declines as the diameter of the stack of line on the drum increases with line taken in. This scheme works without breaking of the line or releasing the model early. This is 1920's technology, but effective. A more expensive technique using strain gauges and electronic motor speed controls could be devised. 8^) I am sure that with proper launch technique, towering launches can still be achieved with such a system set at 80 pounds pull launching 4 pound models. I suspect that experimentation will show that 20 to 30 pounds will be more than adequate. Tim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
My club, the Coffee Airfoilers. developed a tension limiter winch about 30 years ago. It was published in the Jan/Feb 1977 issue of Sailplane and a number of clubs built the winch. We set the tension at the tow ring at 25 pounds and was able to launch sailplanes up to 11 pounds without problems. We used 110 pound test line and never had problems with broken lines unless the contestant elected to launch without the tension limiter. The tension limiter could be be bypassed, but if the contestant launched without the tension limiter, he got no reflights for broken towlines. Most flyers with larger models found that they could get better launches by standing on the winch petal and let the winch do the pulsing. The only disadvantages to using the tension limiter winch was the extra work required to maintain and setup the winch. It was also necessary to periodically adjust the tension for variations in line ground drag as the day went on and the wet grass dried out. The remains of the original tension limiter winch base is still in the woods behind my storage shed. Chuck Anderson At 10:54 AM 10/1/2004, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Michael Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. I agree with Michael. The motor side is the place to limit pull on the winch line, if that is what is desired. There is a simple technique that I have heard has been tried with some success in the past. It involves mounting the winch on a spring loaded pivoting device that electrically limits the force on the line. A microswitch interrupts the circuit between the foot switch and solenoid when the pull on the winch line moves the winch on the pivot against the pull of the spring (the weight of the winch itself is also involved). This cuts power to the winch motor until the line tension lightens enough to allow the spring to pull the winch off of the switch. The spring is adjusted against the pull on the line using a simple spring scale such as is used to set up highstarts to set the trip point. If you just stand on the pedal, the result is a near constant force pulsing of the winch line throughout the launch. Actually the pull slightly declines as the diameter of the stack of line on the drum increases with line taken in. This scheme works without breaking of the line or releasing the model early. This is 1920's technology, but effective. A more expensive technique using strain gauges and electronic motor speed controls could be devised. 8^) I am sure that with proper launch technique, towering launches can still be achieved with such a system set at 80 pounds pull launching 4 pound models. I suspect that experimentation will show that 20 to 30 pounds will be more than adequate. Tim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
I built one of these, back then, had it for many years, as well. that thing trainred many of the Cincinnati club, so many years ago, I ended up giving the frame to another club member several years ago. I still have the plans for it as well. up until my BAT winch, this one was the best out there... Jack --Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- My club, the Coffee Airfoilers. developed a tension limiter winch about 30 years ago. It was published in the Jan/Feb 1977 issue of Sailplane and a number of clubs built the winch. We set the tension at the tow ring at 25 pounds and was able to launch sailplanes up to 11 pounds without problems. We used 110 pound test line and never had problems with broken lines unless the contestant elected to launch without the tension limiter. The tension limiter could be be bypassed, but if the contestant launched without the tension limiter, he got no reflights for broken towlines. Most flyers with larger models found that they could get better launches by standing on the winch petal and let the winch do the pulsing. The only disadvantages to using the tension limiter winch was the extra work required to maintain and setup the winch. It was also necessary to periodically adjust the tension for variations in line ground drag as the day went on and the wet grass dried out. The remains of the original tension limiter winch base is still in the woods behind my storage shed. Chuck Anderson At 10:54 AM 10/1/2004, you wrote: - Original Message - From: "Michael Lachowski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on theline side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyoneunhappy. I agree with Michael. The motor side is the place to limit pull on the winch line, if that is what is desired.There is a simple technique that I have heard has been tried with some success in the past. It involves mounting the winch on a spring loaded pivoting device that electrically limits the force on the line. A microswitch interrupts the circuit between the foot switch and solenoid when the pull on the winch line moves the winch on the pivot against the pull of the spring (the weight of the winch itself is also involved). This cuts power to the winch motor until the line tension lightens enough to allow the spring to pull the winch off of the switch. The spring is adjusted against the pull on the line using a simple spring scale such as is used to set up highstarts to set the trip point. If you just stand on the pedal, the result is a near constant force pulsing of the winch line throughout the launch. Actually the pull slightly declines as the diameter of the stack of line on the drum increases with line taken in. This scheme works without breaking of the line or releasing the model early.This is 1920's technology, but effective. A more expensive technique using strain gauges and electronic motor speed controls could be devised. 8^)I am sure that with proper launch technique, towering launches can still be achieved with such a system set at 80 pounds pull launching 4 pound models. I suspect that experimentation will show that 20 to 30 pounds will be more than adequate. Tim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Michael, You can still use the heavy lines if you adopt a standard week link extension that would go between the parachute and the plane. That way everyone has the same test week link and if you break it you fly it. That would standardize the launch strength. John -Original Message- From: Michael Lachowski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Everyone loves more power. That's why folks want 6 volt motors. Unfortunately there is no strong reason for folks to move away from the Ford long shaft motors. They are cheap to use to build winches. F3b solves the problem by limiting the winch motor resistance. Of course, it complicates it by the fact that everyone brings thier own winches, which is a good thing. You only have yourself to blame on the winch problems. This allows lines and drum sizes to be selected to optimize the winch for the launching conditions. If you took a F3b winch and put a small diameter drum on it with heavy line, you would not break line and you would not need super strong wings unless it was really blowing. I agree that the maximum (it's not required) line length in the AMA rule books is really silly for a TD contest. It's long enough where current models have to look for sink to not make the 10 minutes. Short lines increase the variability in a contest. A short launch in really bad air may not be enough to escape the sink. So you have to trade off between a landing contest and a luck contest if you just select winches. The only true way to avoid that is to run man on man contests. This takes us back to field size limits and the fact that a lot of pilots don't have thier own winches. The only folks cheering for everyone having there own winches are the poor victims who carry out the winches every weekend for thier clubs and the ones that have to rebuild them after they get abused by everyone else. But, it all comes down to what you do as an individual. If you don't like a contest, you don't have to go to it. If you think you can run a better contest, then go and do it. The fact that we use winches and everyone uses the same winches is what I like about soaring. I think the electric comptition guys are crazy. That ends up being a motor technology race. I'm more interested in the airframe technology and the flying. But then, they do have models that will do a good crash and burn. Sailplane pilots usually have to pick on power lines to do that. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Tim Bennett wrote: I agree with Michael. The motor side is the place to limit pull on the winch line, if that is what is desired. There is a simple technique that I have heard has been tried with some success in the past. It involves mounting the winch on a spring loaded pivoting device that electrically limits the force on the line. Personally, I find a Stainless Steel ruler makes a perfect resistor. For launching my 2m woodie, I use a 15 SS ruler trimmed and with holes about 12 apart (adjustable), bent and fitted between the solenoids. Costs under $5 CDN, and easily available. It gets hot, so beware, and keep it clean ... and don't forget to remove the cork backing (peels off nicely with a heatgun, and Goo Gone takes care of any adhesive residue) or it will burn. -- Andrew E. Mileski RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Flew off of one about 30 years ago and it was set to 40 pounds. I loved it as my Camano could do a full pedal on it and I got the best launches I ever did with that plane (no wind if I remember). Can't quite remember who built it. About 10 years ago I made a proposal in RCSD about having classes based upon load dialed in by the CD rather than wingspan. It went no where because I did not proof test it and at the time had neither the time or equipment to make the hardware. I did a spec. on the system showing on-off time, ramp angles for the voltage or current and speed of the turnaround pulley. Once you have the equipment, the possibilities are almost endless. Maybe time to look it up and see what I said. Jack Iafret Keeper of the Nostalgia Rules There is a simple technique that I have heard has been tried with some success in the past. It involves mounting the winch on a spring loaded pivoting device that electrically limits the force on the line. A early. This is 1920's technology, but effective. A more expensive technique using strain gauges and electronic motor speed controls could be devised. 8^) I am sure that with proper launch technique, towering launches can still be achieved with such a system set at 80 pounds pull launching 4 pound models. I suspect that experimentation will show that 20 to 30 pounds will be more than adequate. Tim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Actually, more likely is it will just slow down the contest, replacing the weak links. As I said, it's not the line that's the problem, it's the motor and drum diameter. John Linda wrote: The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Michael, You can still use the heavy lines if you adopt a standard week link extension that would go between the parachute and the plane. That way everyone has the same test week link and if you break it you fly it. That would standardize the launch strength. John -Original Message- From: Michael Lachowski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. The only way to avoid line breaks from the normal wear and tear on the line across the field is to go to the 280-300 lb line. Everyone loves more power. That's why folks want 6 volt motors. Unfortunately there is no strong reason for folks to move away from the Ford long shaft motors. They are cheap to use to build winches. F3b solves the problem by limiting the winch motor resistance. Of course, it complicates it by the fact that everyone brings thier own winches, which is a good thing. You only have yourself to blame on the winch problems. This allows lines and drum sizes to be selected to optimize the winch for the launching conditions. If you took a F3b winch and put a small diameter drum on it with heavy line, you would not break line and you would not need super strong wings unless it was really blowing. I agree that the maximum (it's not required) line length in the AMA rule books is really silly for a TD contest. It's long enough where current models have to look for sink to not make the 10 minutes. Short lines increase the variability in a contest. A short launch in really bad air may not be enough to escape the sink. So you have to trade off between a landing contest and a luck contest if you just select winches. The only true way to avoid that is to run man on man contests. This takes us back to field size limits and the fact that a lot of pilots don't have thier own winches. The only folks cheering for everyone having there own winches are the poor victims who carry out the winches every weekend for thier clubs and the ones that have to rebuild them after they get abused by everyone else. But, it all comes down to what you do as an individual. If you don't like a contest, you don't have to go to it. If you think you can run a better contest, then go and do it. The fact that we use winches and everyone uses the same winches is what I like about soaring. I think the electric comptition guys are crazy. That ends up being a motor technology race. I'm more interested in the airframe technology and the flying. But then, they do have models that will do a good crash and burn. Sailplane pilots usually have to pick on power lines to do that. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. . RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
So let me get this straight (as a scorekeeper kind of guy!). In a MoM contest I have 5 pilots in the group. Pilot 1: -1 sec 85 Landing Pilot 2: -1 sec 80 Landing Pilot 3: +3 sec 75 Landing Pilot 4: +4 sec 95 Landing Pilot 5: -4 sec 99 Landing What are the scores? How about the SWC where I probably have dozens of pilots with the same times scattered thru the standings? I don't get it - I guess I'm thick. Any scoring method needs to be reasonably understandable. Jim Rocky Mountain Soaring Association (anal scorekeeper). --- Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snipped section on using landing scores to break ties... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Good points Daryl, Another example is F3J, where we are measuring time to the hundreths and nearly every competitor lands 95+ (with no skegs :) ). Check out the stats from the Worlds. There is talk of dividing the points between 90 and 100 to provide more discrimination. Landings are the only thing discriminating the leaders. There are lots of options to modify the tasks - shorter lines, longer times, different landings, each of which has it's own warts. The tasks as they have evolved are generally fair and accepted. This does not mean there is no room for change, just that one needs to understand the effect of the change on the game... and it is just a game... Jim --- Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gotta be careful here guys. When trying to de-emphasize landings, we usually make some other aspect of the task hyper-critical. John, you're right on the money. Tim, doesn't sound like you're a contest flyer. Guys who fly to 9:46's don't win contests where I'm from. Tim, in your scenario let's assume rounding: A 9:59.49 100 point landing loses to a 9:59.50 0 point landing. Is this fair? You've overemphasized the timer, his thumb, his ability to stop the clock right as the plane touches the ground, etc I remember a contest up in No Cal. It was a huge in or out landing. I hit the ground exactly as my timer said 0. Unfortunately, he wasn't looking at his watch as he counted down, and I was off time. Another contest in Riverside. It was a 2 day. Same deal, they tried to de-emphasize the landing. The spots were super small, and the best you could do was a 5 point landing bonus. The hit for time was more than 5 points per second. I decided to never even try for a landing. I won that w/e without ever getting a landing. Or trying to. Our contest formats have evolved I think to be a relatively fair way of judging our soaring/energy management skills. The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
I am a newbie at this game, but I have assumed that if you shorten the winch lines there will be even greater emphasis on energy retention during the zoom and therefore planes will need to be even stronger, stiffer, more aerodynamically slick which equals further development which then equals dollar$$$. I was shocked to see the local guys getting 10 minutes during very very light lift with no circling in thermals. Certainly that then means that the only way of discriminating these good fliers with their super machines is by measuring to the thousandths and requiring more difficult tasks. With all the technology in our machines, can't someone think of a way to automate the timing and scoring? You *cannot* be accurate to the hundredths, much less tenths with a stopwatch. Just ask any of our dragracer friends what the typical reaction time is. Perhaps an electronic tape that records when/where the nose hits (much like fencing might do) and/or a timing system that senses a release from the towhook? But then again, why complicate what is supposed to be a relaxing hobby? :) Jim Monaco wrote: Good points Daryl, Another example is F3J, where we are measuring time to the hundreths and nearly every competitor lands 95+ (with no skegs :) ). Check out the stats from the Worlds. There is talk of dividing the points between 90 and 100 to provide more discrimination. Landings are the only thing discriminating the leaders. There are lots of options to modify the tasks - shorter lines, longer times, different landings, each of which has it's own warts. The tasks as they have evolved are generally fair and accepted. This does not mean there is no room for change, just that one needs to understand the effect of the change on the game... and it is just a game... Jim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
I almost hate to post this. In my opinion, to eliminate the need for all that extra technology, etc., you will need only to limit the launch line strength. Make it 80 - 100 lbs. and zero the flight of the second line break. That negates the wing strength having to be so great. With a line strength of 80 lbs. and a 600 foot line to start with, the launch technique is much more important, but the emphasis is on soaring. The last time I went to fly, I put the turnaround at the max legal length with a measuring wheel. Anyone that can't get 10 minutes from the launch I got... well... I flew all over the place. The actual fact is that if you don't like the current format, you're kind of screwed. Unfortunately, If you have the nerve to speak against it, you get stereotyped into the landing whiner category. Fortunately for me, I am getting back into flying full scale and, well, there are no landing points awarded there. It's a race. While this is logistically difficult to do with models, it's not impossible. I am personally tired of 10 minute 100 point TD to the point of quitting competition again. There are other contest formats that can be logistically simple to run that aren't so boring. Even running a woody contest or a nostalgia event is more fun than the same old thing... even if part of it is... the same old thing. I can land and I can fly and I practice... but to what end? Once there was a guy that was out flying a Nordic and decided he didn't want to chase his sailplane down wind any more. He thought that an r/c sailplane would be nice, especially if he could land it at his feet... What a whiner! He should be drubbed out of the hobby! The very idea that there could be a change... give us all a break... HEHEHE! Have fun with that one! Nothing like stirrin' the pot... I can see the veins bulging in the foreheads now... Jack Womack Sorry, I'm in a rather strange mood following a family tragedy... You guys are who I decided to pick on. I feel better already. Yep, I'm a sick puppy... Flame suit on! --- Stuart A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a newbie at this game, but I have assumed that if you shorten the winch lines there will be even greater emphasis on energy retention during the zoom and therefore planes will need to be even stronger, stiffer, more aerodynamically slick which equals further development which then equals dollar$$$. I was shocked to see the local guys getting 10 minutes during very very light lift with no circling in thermals. Certainly that then means that the only way of discriminating these good fliers with their super machines is by measuring to the thousandths and requiring more difficult tasks. With all the technology in our machines, can't someone think of a way to automate the timing and scoring? You *cannot* be accurate to the hundredths, much less tenths with a stopwatch. Just ask any of our dragracer friends what the typical reaction time is. Perhaps an electronic tape that records when/where the nose hits (much like fencing might do) and/or a timing system that senses a release from the towhook? But then again, why complicate what is supposed to be a relaxing hobby? :) Jim Monaco wrote: Good points Daryl, Another example is F3J, where we are measuring time to the hundreths and nearly every competitor lands 95+ (with no skegs :) ). Check out the stats from the Worlds. There is talk of dividing the points between 90 and 100 to provide more discrimination. Landings are the only thing discriminating the leaders. There are lots of options to modify the tasks - shorter lines, longer times, different landings, each of which has it's own warts. The tasks as they have evolved are generally fair and accepted. This does not mean there is no room for change, just that one needs to understand the effect of the change on the game... and it is just a game... Jim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
At 10:17 PM 9/30/2004, Jack Womack wrote: The actual fact is that if you don't like the current format, you're kind of screwed. Unfortunately, If you have the nerve to speak against it, you get stereotyped into the landing whiner category. I'll repeat myself again for the whiners. 1. Go get your CD license. (You are an AMA member I hope.) 2. Hold a sanctioned contest. You just have to notify of AMA rules deviation in advance. And if your ideas work, otherwise keep holding contests until it does. 3. Propose a rules change. Sound simple? You can actually CD a contest without having the coveted CD License. If no CD License it's even easier, Announce a contest. You only need 2 people. Now get off your a** and stop whining. :-) Great example of this. Look at what Ray Hayes has been doing with his Wood Crafters contests. They are well attended and well liked. You don't see Ray complaining about how all the contests are completely overrun with Expensive, Molded, Fiberglass, Kevlar, Carbon fiber sailplanes. I applaud a guy like Ray. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
I do this at the SOAR OVSS Fred Contest each year: 1. Short (strong) lines: About 200 meters (650 ft) of 290 lb test braided nylon line as used at the Nats; 2. FAI Landing tapes, added as bonus after FLIGHT scores are normalized (1,100 points is perfect, landing is a 10% point bonus); 3. No landing skegs/arrestors allowed (I always have a hacksaw available for guys who know the rules and still show up with a molded in skeg); 4. Long task times (10+ minute targets); 5. Seeded Man-on-Man (OVSS format, keeps the big boys pounding on each other all day, they like it and so do the spectators); 6. Fly what you want, no primary/backup models designated; We have a great time, fly all day, BS and funfly until dark (or later), and most of us are still talking by the end of the weekend. What's not to like? = Tom Kallevang Wheeling, IL AMA L292 SOAR LSF President Webmaster LSF #303 Level V ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Tom, next week at Muncie, the 2004 F3B Team Select. WILL YOU BE THERE ? Dave.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
After all this stuff that has been spewed about landing, flying, contests and such, below is the secret to success of OVSS and midwest soaring. Yes, we have two contest that do not do MOM, and all the rest use a more normal landing task and skegs. But as Tom stated, we have a great time flying, soaring has become a spectator sport for the first time ever in my recolection, and even though I know some places numbers are down, ours are up. We are flying normally 10-15 minute tasks, mostly short lines (some as short as 450 feet), and in our year you will see about every condition that is possible to have. We added sportsman class this year and that has even added a new dimension to the series. The great part is we united instead of seperated and it has gotten better ever since. Come to Fall Round Up and see what we mean. Marc I do this at the SOAR OVSS Fred Contest each year: 1. Short (strong) lines: About 200 meters (650 ft) of 290 lb test braided nylon line as used at the Nats; 2. FAI Landing tapes, added as bonus after FLIGHT scores are normalized (1,100 points is perfect, landing is a 10% point bonus); 3. No landing skegs/arrestors allowed (I always have a hacksaw available for guys who know the rules and still show up with a molded in skeg); 4. Long task times (10+ minute targets); 5. Seeded Man-on-Man (OVSS format, keeps the big boys pounding on each other all day, they like it and so do the spectators); 6. Fly what you want, no primary/backup models designated; We have a great time, fly all day, BS and funfly until dark (or later), and most of us are still talking by the end of the weekend. What's not to like? = Tom Kallevang Wheeling, IL AMA L292 SOAR LSF President Webmaster LSF #303 Level V ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Marc Gellart, Marketing Representative 704-473-9292 Cell Phone 618-654-8101 Home and Fax RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Would really REALLY like to, but cannot. Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, next week at Muncie, the 2004 F3B Team Select. WILL YOU BE THERE ? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Have a CD license, run large contests, etc... I know what they are like. I also know that we have folks that are stone cold bored with the same old thing. Like someone else posted, this has been this way since 1971 or longer. I left this hobby from shear boredom in 1980 and just came back 4 years ago to guess what... the same old thing... It still boils down to this: If you want to run a contest, you set the task. If it's the same old thing and you have no turn out or a great turn out, it's still the same old thing. If the task is published ahead of time, and it's the same old thing, I may come but I may find something else to do. If it's something different that peaks my interest, I'll probably break my neck to get there, just to see if it works. Jack Womack --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuck, once again experience speaks loud and clear. Let those who have better ideas step up to the pump, get their CD license, and run some serious contests, like the Soaring Nats, the Southwest Classic, etc, try these new ideas and find out what the contestants really like and what really works, and then if they still like their new landing or not landing schemes, get involved in a rules change. Just stop whining and get on with life. Regards, Dave Corven, AMA 878, LSF254 and damn near Level 5. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Those who don't understand why we have landings as part of sailplane contest scoring should read The LSF Story by Scott Christensen. It can be found in the History section of the LSF web site (www.silentflight.org). He goes into great detail about why landings were incorporated into flight scoring. Scott is LSF 001 and was one of the founders of LSF. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Yep, people are leaving the hobby. The numbers are down for golf too. Does making the task easier keep the attraction? NO Make things too easy and people lose interest as well. People will lose interest because they want instant gratification. You want to eliminate the landing or minimize it and have fun FLY F3B!!! It has a landing that is 100 points for a 1 meter radius, and drops by 5 for every meter. So you can get some points without having to dork it. Landing is only important during TD portion and isn't present in speed or distance. You want more fun? Fly XCountry F3J, combat, Slope race. Each of those disciplines mentioned will get the adrenaline pumped. But please don't tell me that the landing task makes it boring (because it is the same old thing) Removing the landing task will do nothing to add to the excitement. The top pilots will make their times, so it certainly is not boring to add landings. Besides ever watch some out of control landing It's not boring 8) Jack Womack wrote: Have a CD license, run large contests, etc... I know what they are like. I also know that we have folks that are stone cold bored with the same old thing. Like someone else posted, this has been this way since 1971 or longer. I left this hobby from shear boredom in 1980 and just came back 4 years ago to guess what... the same old thing... It still boils down to this: If you want to run a contest, you set the task. If it's the same old thing and you have no turn out or a great turn out, it's still the same old thing. If the task is published ahead of time, and it's the same old thing, I may come but I may find something else to do. If it's something different that peaks my interest, I'll probably break my neck to get there, just to see if it works. Jack Womack --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuck, once again experience speaks loud and clear. Let those who have better ideas step up to the pump, get their CD license, and run some serious contests, like the Soaring Nats, the Southwest Classic, etc, try these new ideas and find out what the contestants really like and what really works, and then if they still like their new landing or not landing schemes, get involved in a rules change. Just stop whining and get on with life. Regards, Dave Corven, AMA 878, LSF254 and damn near Level 5. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
- Original Message - From: John Erickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Linda [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The precision part is easy, especially if it doesn't matter where you land (assuming you're inside the field boundaries). I think that if you polled all pilots and they listed tasks in order of difficulty it would come out like this: 1) Making a 100 point landing 2) Making your time 3) Landing on the right time Why de emphasize the skill that is the hardest to do? The way it has been set up for years still has the landing as only worth 10% of the scoring (at maximum) and in many contests only 5%. I think it is a fair allocation of emphasis. We have a game, we have rules, and the guys that are always at the top are the best ones at playing the game. They're not complaining about how it is set up, they're practicing as it is set up. When Russ Young won Visalia he had shot something like 200 landings over the few weeks prior to the contest. He worked on his skills, which is how I see everyone make the biggest strides in improving. If you are not into competition this entire conversation is moot, but since we are talking about our current format, I thought I'd chime in. JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA John, Your comments miss the point, in my opinion. My post addresses the issue of how to adjust the emphasis of our sailplane contests toward flying rather than landing. Your response says Why de-emphasize the skill that is the hardest to do? Thermalling inverted is even harder, why not emphasize that? How about flying blindfolded? Yes, we have a game and it has rules, but is there a better game? Can we get there with a simple change to one of the rules? Is it your argument that what we are doing now cannot be improved? In my proposal to use the landing points for tie breakers only, pilots will not ignore the landing target. As I stated, A perfect flight with a 100 point landing wins every time... Competitors will be trying for the spot every flight or risk losing. I assure you that in any significant contest there will be flyers making their times and their landings. Others will not be competitive by landing anywhere else on the field. The fact that, as you so clearly state, recognizing the key skills needed for an upcoming event, someone practices those skills and wins, does not respond to the question of whether those should be the key skills. It merely proves that those are the key skills. Why should a soaring contest be based on skill in archery? Practicing archery will help one win such a contest, but why should we do that? The fact that this is what we currently do does not justify it. Could there actually be a better idea? Your comment about the traditional weighting of landing points ignores the AMA rules for Triathlon (20% max for landing) and T3 Precision Duration (12.5% max for landing). Also, it has been my experience that many regional contests (including the one I attended 9/18-19 in Tulsa, OK) weigh the landing at 100 points of 1000 or 11%. On a six minute task, which was part of that event, that represents 39.6 seconds. On a ten minute task, also part of that event, that represents 66 seconds. Note that the longer the task the more time can be made up with landing points, regardless of what weight is applied to the landing. Increasing the length of the task does not necessarily de-emphasize the landing. A flight with a 75 point landing and a 10:00 time (1075) loses to one with a 100 point landing and a time of 9:46 (1076). Which pilot flew better? Did a pilot who missed the time by more than a minute fly better than one who made the time, but flipped over due to a gust in the landing circle? I don't think so. So how do we make the contest format reflect that? If all pilots fly perfectly, or nearly so, these issues do not apply, but we hope to attract more than just those pilots to our events and offer them a basis on which to compete as well. If we do not, does our sport have a future? What I propose is not a huge change. I think it deserves consideration and should be argued based on its merits. Those that will resist change, will resist change regardless of any merits. Those seeking better solutions will address the issues. Which are you? Tim Bennett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
So let me get this straight (as a scorekeeper kind of guy!). In a MoM contest I have 5 pilots in the group. Pilot 1: -1 sec 85 Landing Pilot 2: -1 sec 80 Landing Pilot 3: +3 sec 75 Landing Pilot 4: +4 sec 95 Landing Pilot 5: -4 sec 99 Landing What are the scores? How about the SWC where I probably have dozens of pilots with the same times scattered thru the standings? I don't get it - I guess I'm thick. Any scoring method needs to be reasonably understandable. Jim Rocky Mountain Soaring Association (anal scorekeeper). --- Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snipped section on using landing scores to break ties... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Gotta be careful here guys. When trying to de-emphasize landings, we usually make some other aspect of the task hyper-critical. John, you're right on the money. Tim, doesn't sound like you're a contest flyer. Guys who fly to 9:46's don't win contests where I'm from. Tim, in your scenario let's assume rounding: A 9:59.49 100 point landing loses to a 9:59.50 0 point landing. Is this fair? You've overemphasized the timer, his thumb, his ability to stop the clock right as the plane touches the ground, etc I remember a contest up in No Cal. It was a huge in or out landing. I hit the ground exactly as my timer said 0. Unfortunately, he wasn't looking at his watch as he counted down, and I was off time. Another contest in Riverside. It was a 2 day. Same deal, they tried to de-emphasize the landing. The spots were super small, and the best you could do was a 5 point landing bonus. The hit for time was more than 5 points per second. I decided to never even try for a landing. I won that w/e without ever getting a landing. Or trying to. Our contest formats have evolved I think to be a relatively fair way of judging our soaring/energy management skills. The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Great points, Daryl, The ESL seems to be slowly moving towards 5 foot, 50 point landing tapes. They are relatively difficult, but the points are small enough to avoid making it a landing contest. This is especially true with the tasks tending to get longer and longer. These days a 7 minute task is pretty easy where it would have been pretty hard 15 years ago. Flying 10 to 15 minute tasks nowadays is not that rare. Anker RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Daryl, Thanks for your comments. You make an interesting, but rather obscure point. There is clearly an issue of timing accuracy that needs to be addressed under the current format. My expectation would be that flying several rounds will resolve the discrepency you describe with more dependance on flying the time task consistently than any reliance on landing scores will provide. Do you really expect that there would be such a discrepancy after 7 or 10 rounds of flying? I also think it needs to be stated that there are more participants in any worthwhile contest than those consistently posting times within 1/2 second of the target flight after flight. Whatever scoring scheme is used should provide them with a fair way to measure their own performance against other similar flyers as well as to serve the elite competitors such as yourself. To the extent that your scenario is relevent, the real question then becomes: Is the landing task the right way to resolve such discrepencies? Also, isn't the real issue you raise scoring beyond the resolution of the timing technology? Tim - Original Message - From: Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]; John Erickson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. Gotta be careful here guys. When trying to de-emphasize landings, we usually make some other aspect of the task hyper-critical. John, you're right on the money. Tim, doesn't sound like you're a contest flyer. Guys who fly to 9:46's don't win contests where I'm from. Tim, in your scenario let's assume rounding: A 9:59.49 100 point landing loses to a 9:59.50 0 point landing. Is this fair? You've overemphasized the timer, his thumb, his ability to stop the clock right as the plane touches the ground, etc I remember a contest up in No Cal. It was a huge in or out landing. I hit the ground exactly as my timer said 0. Unfortunately, he wasn't looking at his watch as he counted down, and I was off time. Another contest in Riverside. It was a 2 day. Same deal, they tried to de-emphasize the landing. The spots were super small, and the best you could do was a 5 point landing bonus. The hit for time was more than 5 points per second. I decided to never even try for a landing. I won that w/e without ever getting a landing. Or trying to. Our contest formats have evolved I think to be a relatively fair way of judging our soaring/energy management skills. The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Daryl, You wrote: The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models. Do you really think lengthening the tasks will really do much more than reducing the number of rounds we fly rather than actually challenge our current equipment. Other than late evening rounds in F3J Finals (which I have never flown in)or really early morning starts (which I have flown in) I do not see the increase really affecting anything. Generally speaking if you have 10 minute air during the day, you have 15 0r 20 minute air as well. Most guys fly to a spec in the sky in the first 7 minutes and then speed down to set up for a landing. For The Landing Whiners (DP this not directed at you) As for landings, generally speaking the only people I have ever heard complain about landings are those that can't generally get points. Guys, it ain't going to matter how change the landing, the time or anything else, the Guys like DP, JW, Russ Young all the rest of the guys you see at the top of the page are always going to be there because they get out a practice. No more flying than I get to do these days, hell I am happy to get to fly I don't have time to worry about what the landing looks like or is scored like, I am too busy having fun. I will say this though, no matter how little practice I get in, I am always game to join the landing for quarters or dollars that go on at most contests. No there is having real fun with your buds. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Who said anything about making it easier? I can land with most competition pilots. I can certainly fly with most competition pilosts. I don't want to make it easier. I just want to de emphasize landings so that someone can't make up 66 seconds like Tim Bennet pointed out. I want to make it a soaring contest, and again, just not the same old thing. I've been back in the hobby 4 years and I'm already bored with the same old thing. As I remember it, and as one that was around in the early days of competition, landings were added as tie breakers. Let's get back to that basic. Let's have it there as a tie breaker, ONLY. If someone doesn't outright win, check their landing scores. The one with the most landing points wins and the other is second. WHAT A CONCEPT!!! Then it's a soaring contest that can't be won outright by making a bad flight decision and making it up on landings. Don't tell me it doesn't happen because I've been on both ends of that one, winning and losing. Some people just can't believe this comes up... The rest of us just can't believe it has never been changed. We're just as incredulous about this as you are. Jack Womack --- Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, people are leaving the hobby. The numbers are down for golf too. Does making the task easier keep the attraction? NO Make things too easy and people lose interest as well. People will lose interest because they want instant gratification. You want to eliminate the landing or minimize it and have fun FLY F3B!!! It has a landing that is 100 points for a 1 meter radius, and drops by 5 for every meter. So you can get some points without having to dork it. Landing is only important during TD portion and isn't present in speed or distance. You want more fun? Fly XCountry F3J, combat, Slope race. Each of those disciplines mentioned will get the adrenaline pumped. But please don't tell me that the landing task makes it boring (because it is the same old thing) Removing the landing task will do nothing to add to the excitement. The top pilots will make their times, so it certainly is not boring to add landings. Besides ever watch some out of control landing It's not boring 8) Jack Womack wrote: Have a CD license, run large contests, etc... I know what they are like. I also know that we have folks that are stone cold bored with the same old thing. Like someone else posted, this has been this way since 1971 or longer. I left this hobby from shear boredom in 1980 and just came back 4 years ago to guess what... the same old thing... It still boils down to this: If you want to run a contest, you set the task. If it's the same old thing and you have no turn out or a great turn out, it's still the same old thing. If the task is published ahead of time, and it's the same old thing, I may come but I may find something else to do. If it's something different that peaks my interest, I'll probably break my neck to get there, just to see if it works. Jack Womack --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuck, once again experience speaks loud and clear. Let those who have better ideas step up to the pump, get their CD license, and run some serious contests, like the Soaring Nats, the Southwest Classic, etc, try these new ideas and find out what the contestants really like and what really works, and then if they still like their new landing or not landing schemes, get involved in a rules change. Just stop whining and get on with life. Regards, Dave Corven, AMA 878, LSF254 and damn near Level 5. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
As most of you know, I love data (no, NOT the android on Star Trek TNG!). So here is some data. At the SC2 contest yesterday here are the times in seconds off the total of 1,500 possible (5, 10, 10 min tasks): Place - Time off - total landing 1 - 2 - 147 2 - 3 - 141 3 - 2 - 127 4 - 3 - 118 5 - 4 - 97 6 - 5 - 88 7 - 26 - 92 8 - 8 - 47 9 - 71 - 48 10 - 207 - 135 11 - 273 - 50 12 - 366 - 87 This was in our Expert (top) class. Landing was a short runway with points off for distance away from the centerline. 50 points max. 5 minute round was 3.167 points/second, 10 minute rounds were 1.58 points per second. Just some data to chew on. For me, it looks about right. ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Anybody a free flighter in here and know anything about the Super Max? I have a faint memory of reading an article about it the AMA magazine. Something to do with overflying the max time and trying to reach a "super max" in the first round (light morning air, etc.). If you don't reach the super max, there is a penalty. If you do, it can be used as a tie breaker...or something along those lines. Might be adaptable to our RC contests. Anybody familiar with this that can set me straight? Bill Wingstedt
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Oh no, not the Contest Landing thread . . . next it'll be landing arrestors and the downwind turn theory OK, never chimed in on this topic but been-there-done-that since the time of Doodlers and Monterrays so I can't resist: 1) Landing tasks add complexity to the duration and that makes it a challenge -- making it harder is a good thing! 2) Simultaneously accomplishing your duration target and terminating the flight at a precise location, is the best measure of how well you've FLOWN your task. 3) Soaring skill is energy management . . . both going up and coming down!!! 4) If you don't like javelin landings . . . practice more . . . spiking it is not a technique, it's desperation! There's little else more exhilarating than your ship floating in, nose down, over the end of landing tape threshold with 12 inches of altitude and your timer saying . . . two . . . one . . . mark! Brian Molloy MVSA St. Louis 88668 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Rather than longer flight tasks, why not shorten the launch lines? 800'-1,000 ' lines seems like overkill with the planes we have today. Can you fly day one at 700' and day two at 500'? Or would the plane redesign just offset it? Frank Jarratt RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Sort of the same concept as the Royal Order of Thermal Wizards task, a contest run within a contest where the Thermal Wizard attempts to get all 10mins, instead of the 3, 5,7,9, 10 tasks. Check out Harlely M.s Website, its all there and of course the article in a back issue of RC Soaring Digest Magazine! Gordy
[RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. and Urban Legends :-)
Yep, people are leaving the hobby Yep, they arenot. Let's see, people are leaving soaring and that's why Hitec, JR, MPX are creating even more sailplane specific TX's. And why all the 'new' servos introduced by those and the other Mfgr's are sailplane oriented..mounts, configuration, torque etc. Its why inspite of mulitple suppliers of moldies around the world are back ordered up to 2 years. Yep its on the decline...yet there are more winch suppliers than ever before in our hobbies history. Less and less, is why there are now ARF balsa and covered RES ships available from major suppliers like Great Planes and Horizon. Yep the hobby is losing us fast, but not cuz of lack of interest or emotionally destructive landing tasks, but because of all those kidneys stolen while sailplaners are asleep in their motel rooms, for sale to the black market! .Really! We now have more newbies in our Louisville Club than maybe in its history! Its sickening to have to wait in line to get a relaunch! Gordy Gordy:-)
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
YES!! Bring it on!! F3B...F3B...F3B Tom New F3B guy Jeff Steifel wrote: You want to eliminate the landing or minimize it and have fun FLY F3B!!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
