from:"Bob Caputo"

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Protecting underground storage of explosives.

2024-04-05 Thread Bob Caputo

Chris,

When I worked in the Kansas City area in the ‘80’s we installed sprinklers
in hundreds of thousands of square feet of limestone caves.  I was not
aware that hazardous materials were permitted to be stored underground.  At
the time, most was restricted to philatelic, wine, paper records and not
much more than Class IV products.

The problem I see right off the bat, is secondary containment of the
sprinkler water runoff.  There are super fast deluge systems but not sure
deflagration hazards are a good match for subterranian storage
opportunities.

 my two cents

Bob

Bob Caputo, CFPS
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.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 3:05 PM Chris Dorn 
wrote:

> Trying to help a friend of a friend. Has anyone ever provided any type of
> fire suppression system for underground storage of ANFO (Ammoniun Nitrate
> and fuel oil mixture)? The area in question is in a limestone mine
> underground. The space is pretty large and has 30’ ceilings so I’m guessing
> that chemical suppression is not going to be an option. I tend to believe
> that sprinklers may not be the route to go. Water will apparently render
> the ANFO inert but in case of a fire I’m not sure that the sprinklers could
> operate fast enough to provide any real protection. Additionally, the water
> supply is inadequate for almost any type of sprinkler system anyway.
>
>
>
> I’m not really finding much in NFPA except Annex C in NFPA 495 which
> refers to separation distances. I did find a reference to NFPA 490 2002
> Edition but cannot find a current code so I’m guessing it was folded into
> 495 at some point.
>
>
>
> Any direction at all would be appreciated to help me in my research.
>
>
>
> Chris Dorn
>
> Dorn Fire Protection LLC
>
>
>
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Sprinkler age magazine.

2024-01-28 Thread Bob Caputo





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

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*From:* mattgrise5 
*Sent:* Saturday, January 27, 2024 11:49 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Sprinkler age magazine.



I was just sitting down to read the December issue of sprinkler age and I
hope that everyone has had a chance to take in the outstanding update to Mr
Caputo's picure with the President's Report (pg8). We may need to consider
his portrait artist for the Parmlee Award! Very regal!  :)







Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device





 Original message 

From: Jackie Ward 

Date: 1/24/24 10:16 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Refill mechanism for a break tank (NFPA 22)



With your break tank capacity exceeding a 30 minute duration, that is the
way I would interpret it.  Depending on your available water supply, you
may have to increase your break tank size in order for your required refill
rate to be less than your available refill rate.







Sincerely;



Jackie "JW" Ward; SET

1-405-240-7076

jw...@firetrol.net

NICET  IV Cert. No. 104187

Victaulic Vortex Integrator



Firetrol Protection Systems

108 NW 132nd Street; Oklahoma City, OK 73114

405-752-2330  Ext. 10230  Fax:405-752-2297

License No: AR-FSS-162, LA-F415, OK-863 & 302, TX - ECR-1751432,
ACR-1751168, SCR-G-0292



[image: Firetrol Oklahoma City BACK]





*From:* Daniel Bobadilla 
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2024 9:47 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Refill mechanism for a break tank (NFPA 22)



Hello guys, hoping you're doing great!



I am designing a sprinkler system for a warehouse, but the pressure from
the city water main is to weak to deliver the required pressure to the
system, so the client wants to install a booster pump with a break tank.



The break tank is sized to provide a duration of 30 minutes of the maximum
system demand (1282 gpm), this is 38,500 gallons aprox. The issue is how to
calculate the refill mechanism.



NFPA 22-2018 sec. 14.5.2.2.1 states "*The refill mechanism shall be
designed for and capable of refilling the tank at 110 percent of the rate
required to provide the total fire protection system demand [110% (Total
Demand – Tank Capacity) / Duration]."*



In terms of system demand (1282 gpm for 120 minutes according to a CMDA
sprinkler system = 153,840 gallons) I made the following calculation:



110% (153,840 gal - 38,500 gal) /120 min = 1,057 gpm.



The refill mechanism shall be capable of providing a flow of 1,057 gpm to
fill the tank while the fire pump is operating at system demand.



Am I right?



Bless to all of you!



-- 

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Dry System Aux. Drain

2024-01-03 Thread Bob Caputo

Brian,



Anything you can do to ensure the drum drips are attended to at the onset
and during cold weather will be a benefit.  It’s the owners responsibility,
so educating them will be the best way.



That said,  NFPA 13 section *29.6.1 requires t*he installing contractor to
provide a general information sign….



The sign shall include the following information:  (14)  Location of
auxiliary drains and low point drains on dry pipe and preaction systems



So, assuming the signage required on the riser since the 1999 or 2002 code
cycle is there, I’m not sure another sign will help.







*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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*From:* Brian Harris 
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 3, 2024 6:57 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Dry System Aux. Drain



I have a dry attic system where in addition to a couple drum drips I also
have (2) aux. drains per 8.16.2.5.3.3 (2016). What’s the best way to make
sure these get drained before the system is put into service? I’m thinking
of making an 8.5x11 laminated print to put on the dry riser and note these
(2) locations. Thoughts?



Thank you,



*Brian Harris, CET*

BVS Systems Inc.

bvssystemsinc.com

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definitions

2023-12-11 Thread Bob Caputo

The 2022 edition of NFPA 13 section  A.4.3.2 (16) lists unused attics under
examples of light hazard.  This also exists in prior editions.  That said,
the annex material is not the only consideration. The definitions of each
hazard classification should be considered when determining protection
criteria.  For example, where fuel fired equipment is located in an
otherwise unprotected attic, sprinkler protection is required to be
installed above it….



I hope that helps.



*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

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*From:* tston...@comcast.net 
*Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 9:08 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Definitions



I am working on a unheated Attic of 6800 SF wood framing with a Ridge Pole
29’ above the upper floor ceiling structure. The structure was built in
1893.

The Building is being renovated which includes new HVAC with air handling
equipment to be installed in the Attic. No heating equipment. The attic
will not be used for Storage.



Will the presence of Air Handling equipment negate the definition of an
“unused Attic”? Does the presence of any HVAC equipment put the occupancy
into Ordinary Hazard?



If there is a definition in NFPA FOR “Unused Attic”, I am unable to find it.





Regards,

*G. Tim Stone*



*G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC*

*NICET Level III Engineering Technician*

*Fire Protection Sprinkler Design*

*and Consulting Services*



*   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452*

* CELL: (802) 373-0638  *

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves Residual Pressures

2023-11-02 Thread Bob Caputo

Lets look at this from the practical application side of things.  The
standpipe and its valves are there for the fire service, solely and only.
Every department has its own operational standards, due in part to the hose
nozzles they choose.  Some want the hose valves at intermediate landings,
some want them on the floor landing.  Some want 100 psi, while others want
125 psi at the hose valve (because there is about 29 psi appliance loss in
100 ft of hose) and they want 100 psi at the nozzle.



Here on earth, the pressure of elevation is the same for everyone:  0.433
psi per ft of elevation – that is unless you went to the University of
Maryland, where its 0.434 psi per ft. 



Some departments want the FDC on the address side of the building, while
others may want more than one FDC for a high rise that is built on an
entire city block.  Getting back to the point…  NFPA 14 is a minimum
standard for the design and installation of standpipes which will be used
by the first responders – who should be the only one’s deciding the design
criteria and the location of equipment to be used in fighting fires.



That’s my 2 cents – I hope that helps.



bc





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

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*From:* Kyle.Montgomery 
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2023 6:21 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves
Residual Pressures



Well, they can’t have a minimum of 100 psi AND a maximum of 100 psi
available at the hose valve. So, if they want to limit the residual
pressure to a maximum of 100 psi, then they need to deviate from NFPA 14
and allow LESS THAN 100 psi as the minimum.



[Note: I suppose that maybe you could utilize a pilot-operated
pressure-regulating valve at every hose valve location to keep the pressure
right at 100 psi over a wide range of flow, but that would be unorthodox to
say the least.]



*Kyle Montgomery*



*Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co.*

*21605 N. Central Ave.*

*Phoenix, AZ 85024*

*Direct: 623.580.7820*

*Cell: 602.763.4736*

kmontgom...@aerofire.com







*From:* Greg McGahan 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:16 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves
Residual Pressures



With all due respect Rick, I have had Fire Departments very concerned about
the residual pressure being greater than 100 psi for safety. Sizing PRV's
is not the easiest part of a standpipe design. If you are in a jurisdiction
that requires



With all due respect Rick, I have had Fire Departments very concerned about
the residual pressure being greater than 100 psi for safety.



Sizing PRV's is not the easiest part of a standpipe design. If you are in a
jurisdiction that requires flow testing and recording the pressures prior
to the final inspection (as it should be per NFPA 14), guessing could cost
a lot of money to correct.



On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 10:49 AM Rick Matsuda  wrote:

The requirements of NFPA-14 for the standpipe hose valves are maximum
175-psi static outlet pressure and minimum 100-psi residual outlet pressure
while flowing 250-gpm through the hose valve.
If your pump source is from the city mains, then make it easy on yourself
and select a PRV hose valve that will provide maximum 165-psi static outlet
pressure.
This should allow you to use whatever residual inlet pressure while flowing
the 750-gpm total standpipe demand and still provide the minimum 100-psi
residual outlet pressure.

I used the 165-psi static outlet pressure cause the pump inlet pressure may
vary up/down which will vary the pump static outlet pressure which may
raise the static outlet pressure over 175-psi.

If the pump source has a constant pressure like an elevated tank, then
select a PRV that will provide a maximum 175-psi outlet pressure.

Just my opinion but if you select a PRV based on the maximum static outlet
pressure then this should allow a bit more than the 100-psi minimum outlet
pressure. Check the charts to verify this.
Don’t select a PRV based on providing just the minimum outlet pressure.
I think that the

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 1" Armover Restraint

2023-10-19 Thread Bob Caputo

George,

An arm over to a single sprinkler is defined as an arm over whereas when
two sprinklers are served, it’s considered a branch line. Branch lines
require restraint. If the arm over is to a sprig up longer that 4ft, the
sprig requires restraint.

I am not aware of a requirement to restrain the arm over (but if it’s long
enough….)

I’m sitting in an airport without a book so there might be other opinions

Bob Caputo

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 11:35 AM George Medina Jr. <
los_amigos_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have an armover that is 2'-4" in length. The SEOR is requiring me to put
> a diagonal brace on the branch line that the armover is supplied from and a
> restraint on the armover ( I had left a branchline restraint detail from my
> template and I probably should not have left it on with these small
> aromovers) When is an armover required to be restrained (if at all?). Could
> not find any specific length in NFPA-13 (2016 ed.)
>
>
> George Medina Jr.
> Sr. Fire Sprinkler Designer
> SINGLETON FIRE PROTECTION INC.
> Office: (818) 252-5744
> Cell: (323) 906-5701
> Business Hours: 9:00am-5:00pm
>
>
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Pump installation over radiant heat floor

2023-06-15 Thread Bob Caputo

I think you’re ok once the house keeping pad is poured on top of the heated
slab.  I would also pour a housekeeping pad for the controller rather than
having the metal feet on the floor and having heat transferred into the
cabinet

Installing piping along the floor on unistrut type channels is also common
in pump rooms (especially sensing lines) which would also be problematic in
terms of heat transfer and how the temperature changes might effect the
pressures in those lines… so I’d want to run those overhead.

In general, I’d discuss the installation with the structural and mechanical
engineers

Bob Caputo

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 6:15 AM Fpdcdesign  wrote:

> I am working on an installation where the fire pump is going to be
> installed above and already poured radiant heat floor. Outside of not being
> able to drill into the floor, is there anything else I should be concerned
> about?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-554-7054  (fax)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
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-- 
Bob Caputo, CFPS
*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>

*Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*

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you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Back-to-back sidewalls at Mar-a-Lago?

2023-06-10 Thread Bob Caputo

I will remind all users of this forum, this is NOT a place for political
discussion or personal attacks. This will serve as a global warning to
anyone violating this policy, a policy you all agreed to when signing on.
The AFSA will remove your access to the Sprinkler Forum if you violate this
policy. There will be no further warnings – this is one warning, then
one-strike and you’re out policy. No exceptions and no appeals. The
sprinkler forum is a member benefit for AFSA members to discuss technical
and business matters.

We all have views on current events and the political drama we see playing
out every day – this is not the place for it.

Thank you.

*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

214-349-5965 ext124

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Sidewalls for 18 Inches Down

2023-05-23 Thread Bob Caputo

Sorry,  I didn’t see the word, “sidewall” when I responded.  I need more
sleep 





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

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c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*



*Need a Refresher on Hand Calculations?*

During AFSA’s three-day in-person Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations
Workshop, learn and apply principles of hydraulics, including the different
types of pressure, calculating changes in pressure (elevation and friction
loss), and node analysis. Click here
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*From:* Derrek Crigler 
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 23, 2023 1:12 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Sidewalls for 18 Inches Down



TYCO TY3302



Thank you,



Derrek Crigler

Fire Sprinkler Design Manager



7130 Convoy CT, San Diego, CA 92111

o: 858-277-3473 | *HillerFire.com*



[image: Logo Description automatically generated with low confidence]



*From:* Taylor Schumacher 
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 23, 2023 11:05 AM
*To:* 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Sidewalls for 18 Inches Down



Does anyone know of a sprinkler that meets the allowance for up 18 inches
below a ceiling? I have an architect that’s quoting that section, but I’ve
never seen that unicorn…



*8.7.4.1.1.2 *

Horizontal sidewall sprinklers shall be permitted to be located in a zone
6 in. to 12 in. (150 mm to 300 mm) or 12 in. to 18 in. (300 mm to 450 mm)
below noncombustible and limited-combustible ceilings where listed for such
use.





*Taylor Schumacher*

Security Fire Sprinkler <http://www.j-berd.com/>

1 Industrial Blvd | Sauk Rapids, MN 56379

Office: 320.656.0847 | Direct: 320.640.7050

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Sidewalls for 18 Inches Down

2023-05-23 Thread Bob Caputo

If it qualifies as Obstructed Construction by definition:



*10.2.6.1.2 Obstructed Construction.*

Under obstructed construction, the sprinkler deflector shall be located in
accordance with one of the following arrangements:

   - (1) Installed with the deflectors within the horizontal planes of
   1 in. to 6 in. (25 mm to 150 mm) below the structural members and a maximum
   distance of 22 in. (550 mm) below the ceiling/roof deck
   - (2) Installed with the deflectors at or above the bottom of the
   structural member to a maximum of 22 in. (550 mm) below the ceiling/roof
   deck where the sprinkler is installed in conformance with *10.2.7.2*
   <https://link.nfpa.org/publications/13/2022/chapters/10#ID000130001317>
   - (3) Installed in each bay of obstructed construction, with the
   deflectors located a minimum of 1 in. (25 mm) and a maximum of 12 in.
   (300 mm) below the ceiling
   - (4) Installed with the deflectors within the horizontal planes 1 in.
   to 6 in. (25 mm to 150 mm) below composite wood joists to a maximum
   distance of 22 in. (550 mm) below the ceiling/roof deck only where joist
   channels are fire-stopped to the full depth of the joists with material
   equivalent to the web construction so that individual channel areas do not
   exceed 300 ft2 (28 m2)



But I’m guessing your situation doesn’t meet that definition….



*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*



*Need a Refresher on Hand Calculations?*

During AFSA’s three-day in-person Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations
Workshop, learn and apply principles of hydraulics, including the different
types of pressure, calculating changes in pressure (elevation and friction
loss), and node analysis. Click here
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/calendarevent/sprinkler-hydraulic-calculations-workshop-4/>
for details and to register.



*From:* Taylor Schumacher 
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 23, 2023 1:05 PM
*To:* 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Sidewalls for 18 Inches Down



Does anyone know of a sprinkler that meets the allowance for up 18 inches
below a ceiling? I have an architect that’s quoting that section, but I’ve
never seen that unicorn…



*8.7.4.1.1.2 *

Horizontal sidewall sprinklers shall be permitted to be located in a zone
6 in. to 12 in. (150 mm to 300 mm) or 12 in. to 18 in. (300 mm to 450 mm)
below noncombustible and limited-combustible ceilings where listed for such
use.





*Taylor Schumacher*

Security Fire Sprinkler <http://www.j-berd.com/>

1 Industrial Blvd | Sauk Rapids, MN 56379

Office: 320.656.0847 | Direct: 320.640.7050

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Need help with a sanity check - Estimate - Open records on safety professionals

2023-04-27 Thread Bob Caputo

Scot,



Thank you for your thoughtful diatribe expressing a common sense viewpoint
of societal norms and the proclivities of the federal government. That
said, this is a fire protection (and predominately) fire sprinkler forum
and as such, the content and submittals should be related to the point.
While insightful, your political point of view is out of place, and I
invite you to post such thoughts elsewhere, as they do not belong on the
sprinkler forum.



Thank you for the compliment and for your participation, which will
continue to be welcomed, provided we can keep posts related to primary
industry topics.



Best regards,



Bob





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*



*Advanced Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations*

Take a deep dive into advanced hydraulic principles for standpipe systems,
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the May 3-5 class here
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/programs/advanced-sprinkler-hydraulic-calculations-workshop/>
.



*From:* å...  
*Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2023 2:26 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Need help with a sanity check - Estimate - Open
records on safety professionals




Funny that the American FTC, coming from the land that claims capitalism
like few other nations have...

doesn't have the gonads to openly talk about the cost of capital...



But we -- the public safety professionals -- seem to not give the public
taxpayers funding the FTC, enough open, honest, simple information about
costs, or about other parameters of our profession to help the public
consumer avoid the pitfalls of collusion.



We know more about what basketball and curling competitors make and charge,
than we do about professionals who steward public safety.  We know more
about the hourly wage of  baseball players and boxers than we do about
doctors and construction engineers.   This gap is wrong, dead wrong.



We should have open, honest, and simple access to each doctor's,
engineer's, politician's



   hourly-rate or salary

   inventory of decisions, actions and outcomes (i.e. performance record)

   collusion or sub-contracts and professional dealings with colleauges,
etc.



How could collusion on an open forum be worse than the collusion that
already happens in hushed voices at NFPA standards meetings or in corridors
of SFPE conferences or fire safety industry trade shows?  Collusion and
corruption are simply different manifestations of entropy, and are
impossible by the laws of Nature to prevent.



I think debate and discussion of pricing on an open forum such as this,
discourages collusion.  Any one is able to offer a lower price here, in the
open;  that is anti-collusion, not collusion.



Seems to me, that most times a law is passed to ban 'product zeta', the ban
on 'product zeta' ends up creating a higher profit for those who find a way
to continue to offer 'product zeta'.   Examples:  alcohol prohibition,
medicine prices in Canada or Mexico versus USA,  sanctioned oil...



Maybe someone should start a forum where FTC allows open talk on



prices and bids,

'cooperative' designs or sub-contracts with other colleagues

hourly wages,

accuracy of engineering design,

effective reliability of engineering design, etc.

# and type of failures per occupancy class



Actually, this open, honest information would be a collusion, but a
collusion against the professionals whom hide the salami on
salary, non-competitive bid awards, insider tips, etc.  We should know as
much numerical data about doctors performing surgery on our bodies, or
about engineers building bridges on our highways, as we know about the
percentage of completed cross-pitch passes from any given left fullback.



Mr. Caputo you do your job well.  This is not an indictment of you, AFSA or
anyone on this forum.  It is a castigation of society in general, with a
special foot to the crotch of the FTC, who would be better at preventing
collusion by



memorializing (not preventing) information access on professionals paid to
provide public safety.



The FTC could put each professional's actions, decisions, hourly rate,
design outcomes, etc. onto a blockchain (where the intent is that anyone
could access data about a public safety professional, but only change the
data after agreement from 95+% peers in the blockchain).  Recording
decisions and actions is what schools do,  so why would the decis

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Need help with a sanity check - Estimate

2023-04-26 Thread Bob Caputo

As a gentle reminder, it is inappropriate to discuss pricing on any level
or basis on this Forum. We could be subjected to an accusation of
collusion by the Federal Trade Commission and no one wants to have that
discussion. While this post didn’t quite touch the flame, it’s warm enough
to warrant a warning. There can be no pricing discussions or anything
close to it.

Thank you all and I hope this forum will continue to be a valuable resource
for our members!

Best regards,

Bob

*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

214-349-5965 ext124

firesprinkler.org

*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*

*Advanced Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations*

Take a deep dive into advanced hydraulic principles for standpipe systems,
fire pump assemblies, and water storage tanks. Learn more and register for
the May 3-5 class here
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/programs/advanced-sprinkler-hydraulic-calculations-workshop/>
.

*From:* Prahl, Craig
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 26, 2023 1:48 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Need help with a sanity check - Estimate

I have an in-house estimator who provided me an estimate of $2.77MM for a
Pre-Engineered building, 350’x250’, open production area, no ceilings.
35,000 sf area with 45 ft high roof, 52,500 sf 30 ft high roof. Three wet
pipe systems.

Open racks with 2-level of in-rack sprinklers, approx. 1400 linear ft of
racking. Dedicated wet pipe system.

Separate Utility bldg., 2400 sq. ft, wet system

Truck loading/unloading canopy 1500 sq. ft. Deluge system

Office area 100’x260’, wet pipe system. LH.

No fire pump, no water tank. Tying into municipal water supply. UG is not
included in this scope, it’s by others.

This seems a bit high to me . All I’m looking for is an off-the-cuff,
back-of-the-napkin, ball park number or tell me he’s spot on.

If you wish, you can reply via my email address shown below.

Thanks,

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection |
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: - NFPA13:2022 pdf version

2023-03-08 Thread Bob Caputo

I am a long-time member of NFPA 13 and 25 committees and also an instructor
for NFPA so I am very familiar with their processes and direction.



I know you are a long way from the USA, but membership in our organization
is inexpensive and gives you access to our technical services department
for support.  We sit on over 30 standards and have 5 FPE’s on staff.



Many of our training programs are available remotely as well.  If you visit
our website:   www.firesprinkler.org you may find our association useful as
well.



Best regards,



Bob





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*



*Advanced Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations*

Take a deep dive into advanced hydraulic principles for standpipe systems,
fire pump assemblies, and water storage tanks. Learn more and register for
the May 3-5 class here
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/programs/advanced-sprinkler-hydraulic-calculations-workshop/>
.



*From:* Phong - Indochine Engineering 
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 7, 2023 9:33 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: - NFPA13:2022 pdf version



Thanks Bob,



My team has asked NFPA and get their guidance same with your email, thanks
again.























*Good day  ,Thank you for contacting National Fire Protection Association
(NFPA).NFPA no longer offers PDF's for the code documents. The overwhelming
input from our stakeholders has been for digital offerings versus simply a
code or a static version of a code. NFPA has looked extensively at various
formats and determined that not only is a PDF not a true digital offering,
but the PDF format also lacks sufficient security and copyright protection
and cannot be updated with new information in an effective manner.   As
part of our transition to a new digital way to deliver information, NFPA
will no longer offer access to PDFs for new editions of codes and
standards, including new titles available through the National Fire Codes®
Subscription Service (NFCSS™) effective with the 2020 releases.  Titles
previously published in PDF format will remain in-market and will be
available in the digital access version of NFCSS.   We now offer a service
with both online and offline access to NFPA codes/standards, NFPA
LiNK®.NFPA LiNK® delivers information beyond just the text of codes and
standards; it offers context and insights, as well as features that our
stakeholders find useful, including the ability to search, bookmark, add
notes, and collaborate.  Please see nfpa.org/link
<https://nfpa.org/link> to learn more.  We offer a 14 day free trial that I
encourage you to take advantage of.You can also see the Evolution of
Information Delivery <https://www.nfpa.org/formatoptions> section of our
website for more details on this transition.Have a safe day.Sincerely,NFPA
Customer Support*



Regards,

Le Vu Phong

Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525



*From:* Bob Caputo 
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 7, 2023 8:24 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: - NFPA13:2022 pdf version



Actually, NFPA LINK will provide you with access to every NFPA standard,
both on line and you can download individual codes or standards to your
device for use off line.  These versions include commentary from the
handbooks in many cases and are searchable. Once you get used to it, its
better than having pdf’s and they offer a free trial to try it before you
buy it.



LINK is the alternative to pdf’s and hard copies.





[image: Image removed by sender.]

*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

[image: Image removed by sender.]
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>  [image: Image removed by
sender.] <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>  [image:
Image removed by sender.]
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  [image: Image removed by sender.]
<https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*



*Advanced Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations*

Take a deep dive into advanced hydraulic principles for standpipe systems,
fire pump assemblies, and water storage tanks. Learn more and register for
the May 3-5 class here
<https://

[Sprinklerforum] Re: - NFPA13:2022 pdf version

2023-03-07 Thread Bob Caputo

Actually, NFPA LINK will provide you with access to every NFPA standard,
both on line and you can download individual codes or standards to your
device for use off line.  These versions include commentary from the
handbooks in many cases and are searchable. Once you get used to it, its
better than having pdf’s and they offer a free trial to try it before you
buy it.



LINK is the alternative to pdf’s and hard copies.





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Our new address is 1410 East Renner Rd., Suite 150, Richardson, TX 75082*



*Advanced Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations*

Take a deep dive into advanced hydraulic principles for standpipe systems,
fire pump assemblies, and water storage tanks. Learn more and register for
the May 3-5 class here
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/programs/advanced-sprinkler-hydraulic-calculations-workshop/>
.

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

2023-02-20 Thread Bob Caputo

I don’t weigh in on forum matters often, but as one who has done a
significant amount of (contract) plan reviews, if the number of sprinklers
on the branch lines outside of the grid visually appears to potentially
present a greater demand, I would ask for calcs to prove they are not.



Any submittal should provide enough hydraulically calculated areas to show
the plan reviewer that the area of greatest demand is proven. (Unless the
system is a tree configuration, with a single occupancy and design density
throughout) where the demand area is obvious. I teach plan review and
that’s what I tell AHJ’s to expect.



Bob





*From:* Fpdcdesign 
*Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2023 7:14 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...



Rule of thumb: if the number of sprinklers on the outrigger is less than
1/2 the number on a single line in the remote area, you do not need to calc
the outrigger. Caveat: the outriggers are the same size as the grid lines.






On Feb 20, 2023 at 8:07 AM, >
wrote:

Personally, I have always calculated the outriggers
because sometimes they are more demanding. If a designer reduces the
spacing between the sprinklers on the outriggers to make up for the
distance against the wall, this can force you to pick up extra heads
in the same Sq Ft area. It takes a couple of minutes to be sure and I
have busted people in review where the calcs did not
work.On Sat, Feb 18,
2023 at 11:31 PM Travis Mack mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com
">t.m...@mepcad.com
wrote:













With the modern software systems it’s quite simple. You
just put as many design areas in the plan as needed to find the most
demanding. It’s not like we are doing hand calcs and taking hours to
do them. It is generally only a few seconds to a

 few minutes to put a calc area on a system. 











Travis
Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |


181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I
Henderson, NV 89074

http://www.mepcad.com/; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)"
target="_blank">www.mepcad.comhttp://www.mepcad.com%3c/span%3e%3c/a%3e%3cspan>
style="color:black"> | m:
480.547.9348

 

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |
AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

 

Book
appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)"
target="_blank">https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad











From: Rick Matsuda mailto:rick26...@gmail.com "
target="_blank">rick26...@gmail.com

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 1:23:12 PM

To: mailto:vi...@wtfp.net "
target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net mailto:vi...@wtfp.net
" target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net; Discussion
list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
"
target="_blank">sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

 









The rule is…you must calculate the “hydraulically most
demanding area” which is often difficult to determine. 

Rick



On Feb 18, 2023, at 2:11 PM, Vince Sabolik
mailto:vi...@wtfp.net "
target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net wrote:









 Thanks Rick -

I fully understand the hydraulic stuff, but I was hoping to be able to
point to a

rule somewhere. 



On 2/18/2023 2:53 PM, Rick Matsuda wrote:





It’s hydraulics. If you have a remote area in the
middle of the grid, then water is flowing to the sprinklers from both
mains. If the remote area has four sprinklers on each branchline, then
two sprinklers are fed from each main.

 If you have six sprinklers on each branchline, then three sprinklers
are fed from each main. 

As a plan reviewer, I required an additional remote area to be
calculated if there was more than half the number of sprinklers on
deadend “outriggers” if all the branchline pipes were the same size.
The deadend lines are hydraulically more demanding. 

I also required additional remote areas if you down-sized the
outrigger piping.  



Rule of thumb for you…don’t put more than half the number of
sprinklers from the width of the remote area on an outrigger and don’t
change the outrigger pipe sizes. 

Rick Matsuda



On Feb 18, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Vince Sabolik mailto:vi...@wtfp.net " target="_blank">

vi...@wtfp.net wrote:









 Thanks Mike -



That sure would explain a lot of uncalculated three head outboards
that Ive seen,

but I was hoping for a written down rule somewhere.



On 2/18/2023 2:00 PM, Mike Morey wrote:









I
was always told it was half the number of heads per line in the remote
area. Theory being roughly half the water goes each way back to the
mains anyways,

 so half the heads was half the water that one direction.











Mike
Morey

CFPS
3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677

Project
Manager
•

 Fire Protection Group

Shambaugh  Son, LP an
EMCOR Company

7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN
• 46825

direct
260.487.7824 /

 cell 260.417.0625
/  fax 260.487.7991

email mailto:mmo...@shambaugh.com "
target="_blank">mmo...@shambaugh.com

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Roof Hydrant

2022-11-30 Thread Bob Caputo

Todd,



Regardless of adoption or interpretation of codes and standards, the local
AHJ has to respond to the emergency at hand. The codes and standards
provide the local AHJ with a lot of leeway in terms of what they think they
need in terms of systems, design criteria and the value of a roof hydrant.
It is within their purview to require what they think they want or need.



We can argue about mini-maxi states or where the limit might be as it
relates to requirements but I’m not sure this isn’t reasonable (depending
on the roof slope)



We should remember that NFPA standards provide a minimum level of
protection – nothing says we cannot or should not do more.  Yes, I know I
am preaching to the choir with this angle but our codes and standards
cannot address every situation specifically and the AHJ probably has a
reasonable thought in their request.



Just my 2 cents





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Stronger Together – We help solve problems with you, at any point in your
project timeline!*

*Are you a member with a technical question?  *Don't forget one of the most
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Services Department. It’s like having an FPE on your staff. Visit
www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview to submit a question today! (Member
login required.)



*From:* Fpdcdesign 
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2022 7:00 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Roof Hydrant



I am working on an existing 4 story building which is being retrofitted
with a Class III standpipe system. We have been told that a ”roof hydrant”
is required. I have not seen anything in 14 (2013 is what this jurisdiction
is using) that specifically mentions a roof hydrant. Section 7.3.2 talks
about a hose valve on the roof, which I assume is a single valve. I
couldn’t find anything that requires any more, although there are a lot of
images that show 2 or 3 outlets. What am I missing?



Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-554-7054  (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply

2022-11-18 Thread Bob Caputo

Backflow preventers are actually not always required.  NFPA standards do
not require them – but where the water purveyor does, NFPA provides
installation requirements.  When a back flow is required, the type and
location are the purview of the water district.



If arranged to allow full forward flow, a hydrant or even the annual fire
pump test or standpipe flow testing could qualify as the means to perform a
forward flow test





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



*Stronger Together – We help solve problems with you, at any point in your
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*Are you a member with a technical question?  *Don't forget one of the most
valuable resources that AFSA provides is Technical Reviews by our Technical
Services Department. It’s like having an FPE on your staff. Visit
www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview to submit a question today! (Member
login required.)



*From:* Michael Slaughter 
*Sent:* Friday, November 18, 2022 4:14 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Cc:* e...@bamfordfire.com
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply



FYI,



A question from an AHJ. In many cases, we receive a dedicated underground
fire line to serve fire hydrants and the building fire sprinkler system.
(Domestic if provided through a separate line)



When this occurs, the local water authorities always require a backflow (in
an underground vault) to separate the public water supply from the private
water system.



With this approach, we do not require a backflow on the riser and use the
yard hydrant system for the forward flow testing of the backflow.



Does anyone see an issue with this approach? If so, please advise we can
revise our procedure.



Mike Slaughter

Risk Reduction Division

Travis County Emergency Services District 2

Office:(512) 989-4531

mslaugh...@pflugervillefire.org









On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 4:03 PM Bob Caputo 
wrote:

So, why would it matter where the backflow preventer is located?  NFPA is
clear in the requirement to provide a forward flow test connection. If the
backflow is in a vault or a pit, the intent is still clear.  I am the
current chair of NFPA 24, and I think most members would agree this
connection is better located on the control riser – but there is no
restriction on where you place this connection.  NFPA 13, chapter 6 is a
direct extract of underground installation requirements, provided so
installer/maintainers don’t even have to purchase a copy of NFPA 24.



Are we a solution in search of a problem on this one?



Bob





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*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

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w:

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*From:* Ed Kramer 
*Sent:* Friday, November 18, 2022 11:19 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] BFP on underground supply



NFPA 13 is pretty clear that some method of forward flow testing a fire
sprinkler system backflow preventer shall be provided.  If the BFP is
located at the system riser (very common in these parts), we provide the
required means.



So, who is responsible for providing the means if the BFP is located in a
pit on the underground fire service, and the UG fire service (along with
the pit/BFP) is “by others”?  From a practical viewpoint, it’s easy enough
for us to provide that at our system riser, but are we required to do so?
Or does that responsibility fall on whomever installs the BFP?  I’ve not
seen this addressed anywhere in bid/contract documents.



Ed Kramer

Bamford Fire








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[Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply

2022-11-18 Thread Bob Caputo

So, why would it matter where the backflow preventer is located?  NFPA is
clear in the requirement to provide a forward flow test connection. If the
backflow is in a vault or a pit, the intent is still clear.  I am the
current chair of NFPA 24, and I think most members would agree this
connection is better located on the control riser – but there is no
restriction on where you place this connection.  NFPA 13, chapter 6 is a
direct extract of underground installation requirements, provided so
installer/maintainers don’t even have to purchase a copy of NFPA 24.



Are we a solution in search of a problem on this one?



Bob





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



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login required.)



*From:* Ed Kramer 
*Sent:* Friday, November 18, 2022 11:19 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] BFP on underground supply



NFPA 13 is pretty clear that some method of forward flow testing a fire
sprinkler system backflow preventer shall be provided.  If the BFP is
located at the system riser (very common in these parts), we provide the
required means.



So, who is responsible for providing the means if the BFP is located in a
pit on the underground fire service, and the UG fire service (along with
the pit/BFP) is “by others”?  From a practical viewpoint, it’s easy enough
for us to provide that at our system riser, but are we required to do so?
Or does that responsibility fall on whomever installs the BFP?  I’ve not
seen this addressed anywhere in bid/contract documents.



Ed Kramer

Bamford Fire

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 14 Hose Systems

2022-10-28 Thread Bob Caputo

Luis,



While you may not find the term “wall hydrant” in NFPA 14, you will find it
in multiple NFPA standards, including NFPA 1, 13, 20, 25 & 24 to name a
few.



While NFPA 24  does not provide a specific definition for a wall hydrant,
the other definitions do not preclude one from having a wall mounted
hydrant  or even independent 2.5” gate valves (2022 - 24:7.1.1.4). Such an
arrangement would be under section 1.4 or 1.5 (Equivalency) depending upon
the standard you’re looking at.



This arrangement lends itself to serving Fire Department needs when the
access and/or distance to the back of a facility is greater than the FD is
will to drag hoses for access, and considers the cost to the owner to
extend the underground water main from the street to that hydrant
location.  Then whether it would be a dedicated easement and whether the
hydrant would become public or remain designated as a private hydrant.



Reasonable consideration with regard to flow should include whether the
building is full protected with fire sprinklers, in which case we should
expect the system to control the fire, so the demand for this wall hydrant
might be limited to mop up operations or final suppression.



Much of this needs to be discussed with the municipal AHJ and maybe the
insurance company.



So, the answer to your question is probably, “depends”



Best regards,



Bob Caputo, CFPS



*It should be noted that the above is my opinion.  It has not been
processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA
Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be
considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of NFPA or its
committees. This is provided with the understanding that AFSA assumes no
liability for this opinion or actions taken on it.  AFSA does not provide
design or consulting engineering services and this opinion should not be
considered as such.*







*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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login required.)



*From:* Luis Perea 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 25, 2022 2:53 PM
*To:* 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] NFPA 14 Hose Systems



Hello to all,



I have a couple of questions regarding the NFPA 14 Hose systems,

For a hose only fire protection system based in NFPA 14 is it possible to
install the wall hydrants with a 4” pipe supply? Considering I have the 4”
loop inside the building.



If I need to strictly supply  the wall hydrant with a 6” pipe I need to
change the interior loop to a 6” and increase the cost considerably. (the
only wall hydrant fm approved is in 6”).



The other question is if i have a building over 80,000ft2 Class I and Class
III is it ok to have the minimum 750gpm Flow Rate? Or it is mandatory to
consider the maximum 1250GPM considering that i dont have a sprinkler
system?.



Thank you in advance.

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure on placard greater that static.

2022-09-27 Thread Bob Caputo

California has its own version of NFPA 25, which is enforced statewide.
Main Drain tests are annual only in the CA edition. They have lined through
the monthly requirement.  In addition, the State of California has its own
forms which are required whether electronic or paper.







*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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*From:* Brad Casterline 
*Sent:* Monday, September 26, 2022 11:35 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure on placard greater
that static.



Very interesting Bob, thanks!

How does Carlsbad address the requirement in 13 of quarterly Main Drain
Test for systems where the sole water supply has a BFP?

(The test includes fully open valve, steady flow, etc.)

There are other situations where a Main Drain Test is required also, e.g.,
after putting a system back in service.

Brad



*From:* Bob Caputo 
*Sent:* Monday, September 26, 2022 9:43 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure on placard greater
that static.



Brad,



Move to Carlsbad, CA.  They have multiple municipal pumps that come on line
as demand increases.  One would have to open 3 or more hydrants to get a
drop in pressure and during drought conditions (which is normal) someone
would likely arrest you if you opened any hydrant(s).  We normally get a
computer generated report or we take a static read and make believe we had
a 10% drop to predict the residual.



Just sayin’





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*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

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*From:* Brad Casterline 
*Sent:* Monday, September 26, 2022 8:48 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure on placard greater
that static.



A Main Drain Test would be interesting if this was the case!

The pressure would drop as the valve is being opened, then at some point
start climbing.

Most ‘everyday’ system demands can be flowed out the Main Drain, especially
if it is 2”.

I’ve never seen or heard of a Main Drain Test where the residual is higher
than the static, but then, I don’t get out much.

I think step 1 in trouble shooting this water supply quandary is to verify
the gauge is working right.

I know we record Main Drain Tests to keep our eye on the water supply over
time, and nowadays we can use them to estimate the flow when exercising a
BFP.



Brad



*From:* Matthew J Willis 
*Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2022 4:37 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pressure on placard greater that
static.



Might be some city pumps kicking in you do not know about.



R/

Matt





*Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP*

Design Manager



*Rapid Fire Protection, Inc.*

600 E. Carlson St. Suite AB | Cheyenne, WY. 82009

Office (307) 426-4077 ext. 404

Direct (307) 316-6630

Cell (605) 391-2733





*From:* Fpdcdesign 
*Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2022 2:23 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Pressure on

[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure on placard greater that static.

2022-09-26 Thread Bob Caputo

Brad,



Move to Carlsbad, CA.  They have multiple municipal pumps that come on line
as demand increases.  One would have to open 3 or more hydrants to get a
drop in pressure and during drought conditions (which is normal) someone
would likely arrest you if you opened any hydrant(s).  We normally get a
computer generated report or we take a static read and make believe we had
a 10% drop to predict the residual.



Just sayin’





*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



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magazine *Sprinkler Age* delivered straight to your mailbox, inbox, or
both! Subscribe <https://sprinklerage.com/subscribe> now to get the latest
information you need to know and never miss another issue.



*From:* Brad Casterline 
*Sent:* Monday, September 26, 2022 8:48 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure on placard greater
that static.



A Main Drain Test would be interesting if this was the case!

The pressure would drop as the valve is being opened, then at some point
start climbing.

Most ‘everyday’ system demands can be flowed out the Main Drain, especially
if it is 2”.

I’ve never seen or heard of a Main Drain Test where the residual is higher
than the static, but then, I don’t get out much.

I think step 1 in trouble shooting this water supply quandary is to verify
the gauge is working right.

I know we record Main Drain Tests to keep our eye on the water supply over
time, and nowadays we can use them to estimate the flow when exercising a
BFP.



Brad



*From:* Matthew J Willis 
*Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2022 4:37 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pressure on placard greater that
static.



Might be some city pumps kicking in you do not know about.



R/

Matt





*Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP*

Design Manager



*Rapid Fire Protection, Inc.*

600 E. Carlson St. Suite AB | Cheyenne, WY. 82009

Office (307) 426-4077 ext. 404

Direct (307) 316-6630

Cell (605) 391-2733





*From:* Fpdcdesign 
*Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2022 2:23 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Pressure on placard greater that static.



I have run into a couple of situations where the required pressure as shown
on the system placard is less than the static pressure on the riser. I
found another one today during a survey. If others are finding this, how do
they handle it?



Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-554-7054  (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Intumescent Paint

2022-09-01 Thread Bob Caputo

This is true for impregnated fire treatment however this also weakens the
structural member. There are intumescent paint on the market that can be
applied but must be approved first by the local AHJ.

The problem with these applications can be a lack of uniformity in the
thickness applied (as with any coating) but section 1.5 allows alternatives
were approved by the local AHJ

On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 9:08 AM Anthony Carrizosa <
anth...@archerconstruction.com> wrote:

> According to NFPA 703 NFPA 703 Fire Retardant – Treated Wood.
>
>
>
> This cannot be a paint applied after construction, but must be during the
> wood manufacturing process.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Anthony Carrizosa *
>
> Project Manager *| *Fire Protection
>
> 7855 S 206
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/7855+S+206?entry=gmail=g>th St
> Kent, WA 98032
>
> Cell: *206-679-5283* | Office Dir: *253-341-4593*
>
> https://archerconstruction.com
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fpdcdesign 
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 1, 2022 6:58 AM
> *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Intumescent Paint
>
>
>
> Has anyone dealt with a situation where an intumescent paint has been used
> on a wood structure to make a space above a ceiling non combustible? I’ve
> never been a fan of this stuff but I have a building owner that is adamant
> about using it.
>
>
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>
> 860-554-7054  (fax)
>
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> _____
> SprinklerForum mailing list:
> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org

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Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Hydraulic Design Information sign

2022-04-22 Thread Bob Caputo

Thank you Mr. Leyton for self-policing and reminding everyone the forum is
not the place for advertisements of any kind.



The forum is solely for the purpose of peer review information and the
exchange of ideas, technical (informal) interpretations of codes and
standards. Participants are not permitted to post items for sale and should
not consider the opinions expressed to be relied upon as consultation
services.



AFSA’s technical staff wants to remind our members to verify the
acceptability of design concepts with your AHJ’s prior to proceeding with
any assumptions or costs.



Thank you,



The Management

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Idle Plastic Pallet Storage

2022-04-06 Thread Bob Caputo

James,



With an apology, I should have looked at the latest edition of NFPA 13….
The 2022 edition provides some guidance that addresses your situation:



*20.17.2.2.4.3 *

Plastic pallets shall have no impact on the required sprinkler protection
when stored as follows:

   - (1) Storage shall be piled no higher than 4 ft (1.2 m).
   - (2) Sprinkler protection shall employ high temperature–rated
   sprinklers.
   - (3) Each pallet pile of no more than two stacks shall be separated
   from other pallet piles by at least 8 ft (2.4 m) of clear space or 25 ft
   (7.6 m) of stored commodity.
   - (4) Minimum ceiling design of OH2 shall be used.



Your AHJ should be able to accept this under section 1.5 of whatever
edition you’re using









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c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

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*From:* Bob Caputo 
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 6, 2022 7:01 AM
*To:* 'James Crawford' ; '
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* RE: [Sprinklerforum] Idle Plastic Pallet Storage



James,



Your AHJ is technically correct, assuming the plastic pallets are not
chemically treated or listed. (Chapter 20)



The rules for Miscellaneous storage or Low piled storage (2019 edition
Chapter 4) do not apply because they’re defined specifically and Idle
Pallet Storage is section (20.14). Since the receiver doesn’t control what
pallet types they receive from the shipper, your client is likely to have
multiple types of pallets.



>From a practical perspective, the idle pallet storage rules are based on a
lot more than a dozen pallets, but the standard doesn’t offer an
alternative for a limited number of pallets.



IF your AHJ would consider the pallets to be Miscellaneous Storage of a
Group A plastic, Table 4.3.1.7.1 would allow up to 5 ft high storage with a
design criteria based on OH2.



It is within the AHJ’s purview to allow an alternative if you could
convince him/her to accept it as an equivalency under section 1.5 but idle
pallets can be (likely to be) a much faster and hotter fire than just
plastics – again, a lot depends on the pallet construction and chemical
makeup.











*Important Notice:** Any opinion expressed in this correspondence is the
personal opinion of the author and does not necessarily represent the
official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. The American
Fire Sprinkler Association does not offer consultation services.  This
correspondence is neither intended, nor should it be relied upon, to
provide professional consultation or services.*



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*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



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Competition is April 29, 2022. Don't miss this opportunity to be recognized
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**https://www.firesprinkler.org/competition
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/competition>*



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Program prepares your trainees with a long term career path and the proper
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*From:* James Crawford 
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 5, 2022 7:08 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Idle Plastic Pallet Storage



We have a client that we are trying to help out and are getting push back
from the AHJ



System is designed to Ordinary Hazard Group 2.



Some of the product they get in comes on unreinforced plastic pallet and
the need to store them until they get enough to have picked up, normally
about 12 pallet

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Idle Plastic Pallet Storage

2022-04-06 Thread Bob Caputo

James,



Your AHJ is technically correct, assuming the plastic pallets are not
chemically treated or listed. (Chapter 20)



The rules for Miscellaneous storage or Low piled storage (2019 edition
Chapter 4) do not apply because they’re defined specifically and Idle
Pallet Storage is section (20.14). Since the receiver doesn’t control what
pallet types they receive from the shipper, your client is likely to have
multiple types of pallets.



>From a practical perspective, the idle pallet storage rules are based on a
lot more than a dozen pallets, but the standard doesn’t offer an
alternative for a limited number of pallets.



IF your AHJ would consider the pallets to be Miscellaneous Storage of a
Group A plastic, Table 4.3.1.7.1 would allow up to 5 ft high storage with a
design criteria based on OH2.



It is within the AHJ’s purview to allow an alternative if you could
convince him/her to accept it as an equivalency under section 1.5 but idle
pallets can be (likely to be) a much faster and hotter fire than just
plastics – again, a lot depends on the pallet construction and chemical
makeup.











*Important Notice:** Any opinion expressed in this correspondence is the
personal opinion of the author and does not necessarily represent the
official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. The American
Fire Sprinkler Association does not offer consultation services.  This
correspondence is neither intended, nor should it be relied upon, to
provide professional consultation or services.*



*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



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*From:* James Crawford 
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 5, 2022 7:08 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Idle Plastic Pallet Storage



We have a client that we are trying to help out and are getting push back
from the AHJ



System is designed to Ordinary Hazard Group 2.



Some of the product they get in comes on unreinforced plastic pallet and
the need to store them until they get enough to have picked up, normally
about 12 pallets. If they store them in one pile due to limited space this
works out to about 5’-0” high. They would only have one pile or about 16 ft²,
and the AHJ has said they need to upgrade the roof system or reduce the
storage height as code only allows 4’-0” high storage.



The way we were looking at it is that the total amount of plastics is much
less then what would be allowed by an Ordinary Hazard system.



Any comments.



Thank You



James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone 604-888-0318

Cel: 604-790-0938

Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca

Web: www.phaserfire.ca

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[Sprinklerforum] Just a reminder

2022-04-05 Thread Bob Caputo

Please do not post copy written materials on the forum. This especially
important as it relates to NFPA materials, as we have an agreement to refer
to tables and figures, but not to reproduce them.



I understand the recent post with Table 4 was NOT a NFPA but seeing any
copy written material posted causes me to remind everyone to avoid doing
so.



Please refer to the material without reproducing it. If need be, to a small
snippet *might* be ok





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*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

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214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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*From:* Vince Sabolik 
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 5, 2022 1:13 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] OH K?



Good afternoon, forum -

Does anyone know if  FM requires using minimum K8.0 heads when
HC-2 (OH2)?

 thanks - Vince

-- 

11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601


*Vince Sabolik *

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Velocity - Rant leeway for the AHJ

2022-03-22 Thread Bob Caputo

Scot,



A lot to unwrap in your diatribe but to the point, ICC is a code and most
NFPA documents are standards.  In simple terms, codes tells us when systems
are required and standards tell us how to comply in terms of design,
install, and maintenance.  Of course you know this.



I don’t want or need to post a dozen back and forth point by point debates
but my statement refers to the simple fact that NFPA standards are intended
to be interpreted by the local AHJ who has the authority determine what is
needed for their community.  NFPA standards are minimum requirements and it
is within the purview of an AHJ (by definition, an organization, office or
individual responsible for enforcing a code or standard, or for approving
equipment, materials, an installation or a procedure) to accept alternative
arrangements as noted in section 1.5 (Equivalency).



While I appreciate your perspective on the system of codes and standards,
every municipality is different and local AHJ’s have leeway to apply
requirements as they deem necessary.  Insurance companies are also an AHJ
by definition and their too is money and business decisions as opposed to
enforcing adopted codes or standards.



Let’s not twist or demean the system by invoking visions of mismanaged
pandemics.  I do not speak for NFPA but these consensus based codes and
standards have stood the test of time and keep people safe in the built
environment.  They are not perfect – few people are willing to pay for
perfection.  No code body or non-profit is going to provide legal support
for users of the documents, as they organization has zero control over how
they may be used or abused. NFPA’s committees are the most inclusive, open
and collaborative in terms of being consensus based on the planet.



Thanks for calling me out on my statement.







*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

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<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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*From:* å...  
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:51 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Velocity - Rant leeway for the AHJ



NFPA standards provide wide leeway for the AHJ to make decisions, since
they are the ones who need to show up and fight a fire or access a building.



NFPA may provide wide leeway...on some subjects,

 but in reading of the administrative sections of NFPA and IBC,

  IBC to me clearly provides more--and more explicit permit for-- leeway.

And that is as it should be...

Why?

  Despite what some safety professionals might say, levels of  risk
tolerance or catastrophe acceptance -- VARY.

  Risk tolerance varies from locality to locality, from economic boom to
recession under inflation,

from construction materials to labor skills... risk tolerance must
be flexible.



I see the IBC administrative chapter is written far more flexibly than the
NFPA administrative chapter.

In fact, NFPA seems to wash its hands entirely of any liability (see page 2
of every standard).

   While this disclaimer is transparent enough, it does not provide near as
much 'leeway' in supporting AHJs as IBC

IBC writes it will stand alongside and ?loyally? defend AHJ working in its
jurisdiction and with good faith,

 to the last court appearance.

I don't, and no one else should as well, expect IBC to be !loyal! to an
AHJ, just because that AHJ may say

   " hey, IBC building code trumps NFPA standards "

but we should *expect* IBC to provide legal support that is as open and
honest as possible.



several cans of worms have been opened here...

a can of:   IBC vs NFPA vs most specific prescriptions vs contradictory
prescriptions

a can of:   whoop yippie-kay-ya, regarding variability in risk tolerance



an example, si'll vous plait?

  May I have one can of COVID, please?

  Once upon a time, there was a thing called Hong Kong flu.

 It killed children too, not predominantly old, corpulent humans
already sick.

There was a vaxx for this.  It was not mandatory.  No lockdown called
from uptown.

I submit that the risk tolerance in 1968-69 was far, far greater than
it is in these mamsey-pamsey woken days.

  Risk tolerance changes,  not just over the last 50 years, but as one
crosses into states from red to blue ...

  Risk tolerance changes...so AHJ NEED engage this reality.

  It is the job of Mrs

[Sprinklerforum] Re: What happened to the Misc. Storage verbage of 14.2.3.1 in the 2019 edition?

2022-03-15 Thread Bob Caputo

2019 incorporated  Miscellaneous and Low Piled Storage requirements into
the chapters addressing sprinkler technology for storage applications
(CMDA, CMSA, ESFR and Rack Storage) as opposed to having its own chapter as
it did in 2016





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*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

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214-349-5965 ext124

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*From:* J H 
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2022 11:34 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] What happened to the Misc. Storage verbage of
14.2.3.1 in the 2019 edition?



Hello All,

I see in the cross reference index in 2019 that section 14.2.3.1 was
deleted for 2019. I'm searching all over for at least the same verbiage in
the 2019 stating:



"The protection criteria for storage up to and including 12 ft (3.7 m)
shall be the same as for miscellaneous storage"



Aside from a note in the commentary I cannot find anything in the 2019
edition that explicitly states that.



Can someone help me out please?



Thanks,

JH

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Velocity - Rant

2022-03-15 Thread Bob Caputo

Two separate issues:



There is no safety margin required by NFPA standards with regard to the
water supply test versus the system demand.  The annex recommends one but
the AHJ has the purview to require one.  I have tried many times, to define
a 10% or 5% required safety margin by submitting proposals to the NFPA 13
committee and none have passed.  Ken Isman from University of Maryland
(formerly from NFSA) also pushed this issue passionately but failed to
convince the committee that a safety margin is required, or that one can e
defined for every project.  If your project is in the already populated
area, you may not need one but if it’s a location where communities are
being developed or factories and warehouses are being planned, 10% might
not be enough.



The evaluation of water supplies is engineering as opposed to design.  A
registered professional engineer should evaluate all of the issues
surrounding a project to determine the adequacy of a water supply.  NFPA
standards provide wide leeway for the AHJ to make decisions, since they are
the ones who need to show up and fight a fire or access a building. It is
within the purview of the AHJ to add a safety margin to a water supply
where they determine one is needed.





The velocity issue is simple.  NFPA standards do not require or limit
velocities anywhere except for the suction side of a fire pump.  NFPA 13
and 24 did limit velocities many years ago but the reasons have long since
been dispelled.  People though at faster velocities, the Hazen Williams
formula was less accurate.  Joe Hankins once told me that FM’s velocity
limits were created because they didn’t want 1” grids or systems that
couldn’t be upgraded as tenants or owners changed hands or building uses.



The benefit of being old is knowing old stuff, as long as you can still
remember it







*Bob Caputo, CFPS*

*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*

c: 760-908-7753

p:

214-349-5965 ext124

w:

firesprinkler.org

<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>



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Now enrolling for Spring 2022!



*From:* Byron Weisz 
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:18 AM
*To:* Michael de Gabriele ; Sprinkler Academy - C
Bilbo 
*Cc:* travis.m...@mfpdesign.com; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Velocity - Rant



I think there are some good practices that need to be followed in the
design of fire sprinkler systems and sometimes “simpler” is better.
Treating the flow of water in fire sprinkler piping to other mechanical
systems are not comparable. The obvious is a fire sprinkler system is
designed for emergency use and other mechanical systems are in continuous
use. Sadly, most Mechanical Engineers who write specifications for fire
sprinkler design don’t understand the difference. I was taught that
velocity in fire sprinkler piping was irrelevant and to my knowledge there
is nothing stated in NFPA 13.



To continue the conversation there is no reference of a “safety margin” in
NFPA 13 either. I was told many years ago by this guy named Bob Caputo that
NFPA 13 allow you to design right to the design curve. Most jurisdictions
in the Republic of California give water flow data from either the Fire
Department or a Water Service Company to use for design of a system. This
information is usually doctored in some way. So why would a designer take
“doctored” water flow data and then include a 10% safety margin? Other than
to meet a local requirement there is no reason. What makes no sense at all
is to take “doctored” water flow information and use that information to
size a fire pump to design an ESFR fire sprinkler system.



Again, the best person to answer the questions of velocity and safety
margin in the design of a fire sprinkler system gracefully would be Bob.





*Byron Weisz*



*Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.*

P.O. Box 1284

Lodi,  CA   95241

Phone (209) 334-9119

Fax  (209) 334-2923

Cell  (209) 993-8832

by...@cen-calfire.com



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RE: Distilled spirits

2022-03-07 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Steve,

I suggest looking at the FM Guidelines on distilled spirits,  I have a
copy somewhere if you need it or any help drinking the evidence

Bob Caputo


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 3:23 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: Distilled spirits

All:

Picture a small batch, craft distilled spirits storage and distribution
facility with 23,500 sq. ft. of fixturized storage.   Single and double
row pallet racks and also a fixture that is double row, with three levels
of tilted roller racking down near the floor.40-55% alcohol in glass
bottles by the case; not sure if they have 1.75L sizes or if its 1L and
750ml exclusively.A.5.6 says these are a flammable liquid and NOT
specifically addressed in the standard.

By flash and boiling points, 80-proof distilled spirits are a Class 1A
flammable liquid, but I have read that the packaging in glass bottles and
small container size radically reduce the effective hazard.   (I have read
passionate arguments against this theory as well.)   I've seen tech
reports that describe cased spirits as Class 4 commodity.   I've seen a
tech report that required bottled goods to be protected with the same
design criteria as if there were 500 gallon vats of alcohol in the array.
I'm looking for opinions and code citations - what is the appropriate
commodity classification for distilled spirits in consumer packaging?


Steve Leyton, President
Protection Design and Consulting
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108 Fire
Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training





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RE: INDOOR SPORTS FACILITY FIELD HOUSE

2022-02-07 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Not in my opinion.  We should always look at the definitions for each
occupancy classification as opposed to the list in the annex.  These
facilities have a lot of plastics and combustibles that exceed the
definition of light hazard and they are of heights exceeding 8 ft so OH1
is probably not adequate.

When I look at the foam in landing pits of gymnasiums or even the
bleachers, I'd have a hard time seeing a simple gymnasium as light hazard.

This is a personal opinion.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of tstone52--- via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 7:44 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: tston...@comcast.net
Subject: INDOOR SPORTS FACILITY FIELD HOUSE

NFPA does not define Field houses.

Indoor Track, Basketball Courts, Tennis Courts and Climbing Wall. The new
building will be 37'-0 high to the peak of a flat roof.



Would it be safe to use Light Hazard Occupancy?





Regards,

G. Tim Stone



G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC

NICET Level III Engineering Technician

Fire Protection Sprinkler Design

and Consulting Services



   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452

 CELL: (802) 373-0638

  <mailto:tston...@comcast.net> tston...@comcast.net



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RE: swimming pool

2022-02-07 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

For what its worth, in the 2013 code cycle of NFPA 13, I submitted two
proposed changes related to this topic.  The first was to eliminate
sprinklers directly above the water where indoor swimming pools were
present.  This was rejected by the committee with the statement that indoor
pools are not always in service and when drained, could be used for
storage - so sprinklers are required above the pool.

The second proposal was to eliminate sprinklers in gymnasium locker room
shower areas where non-combustible tiles covered the entire floor, walls and
ceilings. This was also rejected by the committee with the statement that
gym mats and similar combustibles could be stored in these areas.

Additional discussion related to swimming pools expressed concerns for
combustible play toys and equipment often found in swimming pools.  Yes, I
did argue that changes of occupancy or use are addressed by NFPA 25 and
addressed the corrosive nature of the environment on the sprinklers, but the
committee rejected the proposal to omit sprinklers above the indoor pool.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association

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-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Tony Silva via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Sunday, February 6, 2022 10:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Tony Silva 
Subject: Re: swimming pool

Thanks for the responses. I'm trying to find out the industry practice.
Which do you see more? Sprinklers below the water slides or none taking into
account the fire load and possible vandalism?
Tony

On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 5:31 PM AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> That is the preferred way to set the AHJ agreement, in distributed
> meeting minutes of course, because the other way it may be set,
> “provide NFPA 13 coverage for the deck area only”, means some
> sprinklers have to be installed beyond the pool edge to satisfy the
> application density transition boundary rules. That’s why it is best
> to be present at that first AHJ meeting, not just the Architect like some
> Architects like to do.
> The AHJs appreciate being in on the design from inception when dealing
> with odd situations.
>
> >
> > I have seen a pool where it was the AHJ that specifically required
> > NO
> heads anywhere over a pool because they are impossible to maintain.
> (municipal facility)
> >
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Re: UNUSED ATTIC DEFINITION

2022-01-15 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Tim,

In defense of the committee and its members, NFPA standards state clearly
that where terms are not specifically defined in chapter 3, Mirriam Webster
Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition definitions shall be used.  Unused mean
no storage in this context and the standard does provide protection
requirements for situations where fuel fired heaters are present.

Of course, you are welcome to submit language to define unused attic spaces
for consideration when the standard is open for public inputs.  If we
provided a definition for every term used, the NFPA 13 would weigh 10
pounds (4.54 kilos)

Bob Caputo, President
AFSA

On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 9:24 AM tstone52--- via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> The building is new wood frame with insulated roof deck over the Attics.
> The
> roof pitches range from 8:12 – 12:12. Occupancy is Hotel, 3 story built
> into
> hillside with full Attic. This fully insulated Attic shall remain above 40°
> F. which would allow installation of wet pipe system.
>
>
>
> Two air handling units (1 at each end of the Attic) will be suspended from
> the Roof. Each unit occupies about 160 SF of area in an Attic of about
> 9,400
> SF. These AHUs will have propane fired furnaces. I have already spoken with
> Mechanical Engineer and he has suggested that the Fire boxes could be
> replaced with forced hot water coils if needed. There will be service
> platforms built underneath and around these AHUs for servicing only. No
> Walls, Service doors and ladder from floor below only to access the AHUs.
> No storage and Public will not have access.
>
>
>
> Could this be considered “Unused Attic”?  I have laid out sprinkler
> coverage
> using QR listed heads in accordance with NFPA 13, 10.2.4.2 and Table
> 10.2.4.2.1(a) and 10.2.6.1.4. I believe this layout should also qualify for
> Ordinary Hazard per Table 10.2.4.2.1(b), 2022 edition.
>
>
>
> I wish NFPA would define “Unused Attic”. This term is used in NFPA 13 so
> why
> not define it. Or do I treat the entire Attic spaces as “Mechanical Room”?
>
>
>
> Thank you advance.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> G. Tim Stone
>
>
>
> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
>
> NICET Level III Engineering Technician
>
> Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
>
> and Consulting Services
>
>
>
>117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/117+Old+Stage+Rd.+-+Essex+Jct.,+VT.+05452?entry=gmail=g>
>
>  CELL: (802) 373-0638
>
>   <mailto:tston...@comcast.net> tston...@comcast.net
>
>
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p: 214-349-5965 ext124
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*Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*

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<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>,
you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
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Re: Airing of Grievances

2021-12-29 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Scot,

Thank you for your commentary on this subject and for sharing your opinion on 
the subject of open discussion related to money however, as I stated earlier, 
this is not the place for it. 

As president of the AFSA, it is my responsibility to ensure we deliver on out 
mission statement for the membership.  We welcome openly, opinions and debate 
with very few restrictions - including (as stated by Kevin Hall) the discussion 
of pricing models.

This is not a democracy nor are we a government agency and as such, our rules 
will be followed or violators will be subjected to suspension or removal from 
the forum at the discretion of AFSA management and leadership. This is not open 
to debate. 

Thank you for your understanding and Happy New Year to one and all. 

Bob Caputo, President
AFSA 

> On Dec 28, 2021, at 6:03 PM, Bob Caputo  wrote:
> 
> Leyton, 
> 
> While I agree with you in spirit and in practice, please refrain from 
> discussing
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Re: Airing of Grievances

2021-12-28 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Mr. Leyton, 

While I agree with you in spirit and in practice, please refrain from 
discussing specific pricing models within the forum or and AFSA venue or 
medium. Doing so may be considered a form of price fixing which is both frowned 
upon and illegal. 

AFSA is a non profit trade organization and such conversations could put us in 
jeopardy or at risk or invite some form of investigation. 

Personally, I agree that many in our industry accept too much risk, 
responsibility and liability for too little money but this forum is not the 
place for specific pricing discussions.   Please keep comments generic or 
offline.  

Thank you,  the management 

Bob Caputo - Sent from my iPhone


> On Dec 28, 2021, at 4:01 PM, 321 via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> Guys,
> Having been in this business for almost 50 years, I have learned that the 
> quality of a Fire Sprinkler job begins with Quality Design. I was on the 
> "Board" for almost 10 years before I moved on to Sales, Management and later 
> Ownership.
> My start in Design gave me a great foundation to have the success that I have 
> had. I don't mind paying more for a complete Design Job with tie down 
> dimensions and proper routing of piping with the installer in mind.
> I for one will walk away from a job that I can't get a decent price for...a 
> price that will allow me to pay the people at the foundation of the job...the 
> Designers and Fitters, to do the best job they can.
> I closely review all shop drawings that come thru our company and don't 
> hesitate to use the highest quality people I can find.
> That has always been my policy and always will.
> Certified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
> John W. Farabee, Manager and License HolderFire Protection Division
> 561-707-5150
> 
> 
>On Tuesday, December 28, 2021, 03:32:41 PM EST, Steve Leyton via 
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
> 
> As long as I'm on a roll, I submitted a proposal last week on a site fire 
> main project that's off  the grid in the desert east of San Diego.  The 
> proposal request came from the Civil Engineer who's already signed up and on 
> board, but they recently realized that the FP infrastructure is beyond their 
> capabilities.  It's a battery farm for the regional utility corporate parent, 
> with approximately 2 million SF of lithium battery stacks in 100,000 sq. ft. 
> modular buildings.Water supply will be tapped from an adjacent canal, 
> stored in 3 large tanks, then pumped into 3.5 miles of 8" or 10" pipe to 
> supply 43 hydrants and an unknown number of building systems, since service 
> laterals to the buildings weren't shown on the concept site utilities plan.  
> Probably because the basis of design for suppression systems hasn't been 
> conceived yet.  Number of, size and configuration of pumps unknown, whether 
> the utility is self-insured or not, has existing loss prevention standards or 
> not, how they intend to use the 20 accessory buildings shown on the plans in 
> addition to the battery housing, all still not known.  
> 
> We estimate a 9-12 month design schedule with a meeting a week, and included 
> 12 trips to the site during construction at 2 hours each way from San Diego 
> to the site.  So we guessed at a design fee of 2.5% of an ROM cost for the 
> work and they literally came back with, "What can we get for $35-50,000?"
> 
> I dunno, a late-model used car?
> 
> SL
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 12:16 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum 
> Cc: Fpdcdesign 
> Subject: Re: Airing of Grievances
> 
>   
>   
> 
>   Steve, that stuff happens on the other coast, too. A few years ago I had 
> someone come in at half the design price I quoted. I told the client I can’t 
> come near that, so the other guy got it. A few months later, the low bidder 
> called to hire me to get the plan through review. I told him I know what he 
> took the job for and he can’t afford me.  
>   
> 
>   
> We have another guy out here, who may or may not be NICET certified, who bids 
> on the spec jobs at shop drawing prices. He has a McDonalds PE (buy him 
> breakfast at McDonalds and he will stamp your drawings) that will stamp them 
> and everyone thinks they are getting PE specified plans. It has effectively 
> killed making money in any small/medium sized spec jobs. The big stuff goes 
> to the big name firms so guys like me are SOL.
>   
>   
>   
> Todd G Williams, PE  
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>   
> Stonington, CT
>   
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>   
> 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054)(fax)
>   
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)

RE: Purpose of Subdividing Dry Systems?

2021-12-21 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

As noted in the NFPA 13, 2013 edition handbook, "Prior to the 2010
edition, 7.2.3.9 conflicted with the requirement in 7.4.4.1 that combined
dry pipe and preaction systems be subdivided as well as contradictory to
the requirement in 7.9.2.8.4(5) for separate indicating control valves and
check valves for ceiling and in-rack preaction systems, as indicated in
figure 7.9.2.8.4. If subdivision is necessary for those systems, there is
no reason that it should not be acceptable for dry pipe systems, which
operate in similar fashion."

Section 7.2.3.9 was revised in the 2010 edition of NFPA 13 because it was
contradictory to 7.4.5.1

Yes, the reason for sub dividing dry pipe (and preaction systems) is/was
to speed the water delivery time by not having to exhasut air in the parts
of systems not in the direct path of water flow to open sprinklers. All
check valves require internal inspection at 5 year intervals per NFPA 25
but the concern noted by the submitter of the change (AFSA rep Roland
Huggins) in his statement included in the PI. was that check valves could
be frozen closed and not observed, since most inspections are performed in
warm months.

The installation committee agreed that check valve may still be used but
require installation in a heated enclosure to ensure operability.

As always, the above is the opinion of the writer and may not be
considered as a formal interpretation of NFPA 13, and does not necessarily
reflect to views of NFPA or it committees. This opinion should net be
relied upon as consultation.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of J H via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2021 1:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: J H 
Subject: Re: Purpose of Subdividing Dry Systems?

Don't be shy, anyone?

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On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 11:42 AM J H  wrote:

> Hello All,
> Is the purpose of subdividing a dry system per NFPA 13, 7.3.9 -
> 7.2.3.9.2
> (2013 ed) in order to control system size? Let's say you have a system
> that is 1000 gallons and I don't want to be subject to the water
> delivery time requirement can I divide the system right down the
> middle with a check valve (with the check valve in a heated area and a
> hole drilled in clapper) and call it good? If that's not the intention
> of the code mentioned what is it for?
>
> Thanks,
> JH
>
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Re: Sprinkler protection in a freezer warehouse - with plastics

2021-12-14 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Craig,

As you know, the commodity classification is based on the product, the
packaging and the pallet type.  As such, your foam trays have to be taken
into account by weight or by volume.  NFPA 13, Fig 20.4.3.3(a) and (b) and
I don’t have a book with me but pretty sure frozen food on polystyrene
trays is listed as a Group A plastic in the annex list….

Not sure NFPA 13 has any dark corners, though the color of the new edition
is dark gray ;-)

Bob Caputo, Lurking the dark corners of Dubai this week
AFSA

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 2:49 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I have searched the from the deepest depths to the highest heights within
> NFPA 13 for a solution and am coming up empty.
>
> We have a freezer warehouse, storing packaged meats on foam trays which
> are placed in plastic trays. The frozen meat per NFPA 13 is a class III,
> the kicker is the exposed, expanded plastic tray which represents about 63%
> of the package load.  They claim to only put about 2.5 lbs of meat in a
> plastic tray that weighs 4.4 lbs.  This is pushing us into considering this
> as a Group A plastic commodity.
>
> I have found no system criteria for a freezer warehouse with 22' of racked
> storage and a 30 ft ceiling/roof height and exposed, unexpanded group A
> plastic.  Any options we find show them as being Wet systems only.
>
> I am starting to dig into the FM data sheets but was looking to see if
> anyone has any insight or if I've missed some option hidden away in the
> dark corners of NFPA 13.
>
> Quell only goes up to Class III commodities.
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>
>
> 
>
> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged
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> unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
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-- 
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*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>

*Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*

By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training Series for
Sprinkler Fitters
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>,
you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>
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Re: NFPA #30 Containment

2021-12-14 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

I am out of the country (without my books) but from recollection, the time
frame is based on the H occupancy classification form the IFC/IBC, where H9
has a longer duration than H3.  Not sure its in NFPA 30.  It’s definitely
sprinkler discharge rate plus the volume of the largest vessel though.

I hope that helps

Bob Caputo
AFSA

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 4:08 AM James Crawford via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Hope some can help, I seem to remember there was a time frame of the
> sprinkler demand plus largest container in order to figure out the amount
> of containment requires for a flammable storage room, but cannot seem to
> find it.
>
> Can only find the 20 minutes for plastic containers.
>
> Can someone point me in the right direction.
>
> Thank You
>
> James Crawford
> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
> Phone 604-888-0318
> Cel: 604-790-0938
> Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca>
> Web: www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca>
>
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*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>

*Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*

By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training Series for
Sprinkler Fitters
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>,
you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>
.
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Re: Mechanical roll-grooved fittings for fire pipe

2021-12-14 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

NFPA 13 does provide rules for grooved piping.  These rules are copied from
the 2016 edition, so the current edition section numbers will be different.

6.5.3.1* Pipe, fittings, valves, and devices to be joined with grooved
couplings shall contain cut, rolled, or cast grooves that are dimensionally
compatible with the couplings.

6.5.3.1.1* Pipe, fittings, valves, devices, and couplings that conform with
or are listed in compliance with standardized groove specifications shall
be considered compatible.

6.5.3.1.2 Other groove dimensions and grooving methods shall be acceptable
in accordance with 6.5.5.1.

6.5.3.2 Grooved couplings, including gaskets used on dry pipe, preaction,
and deluge systems, shall be listed for dry service.

Coupling manufacturers are required to observe these dimensionally
compatible specifications so that any manufacturer’s couplings or fittings
will work with any other brand.

As always, the opinions expressed herein are my personal opinions and may
not be considered as the opinion of NFPA or its committees. This opinion
should not be considered or used as consultation services.

Bob Caputo, President
AFSA

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 8:55 AM Jamie Seidl via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> You are going to need to cite a specific section, and preferably provide a
> link to said section, otherwise we will not know what you're referencing.
> The link you provided takes you to a gateway page, and I don't think there
> are many of us that have the time to find roll groove specs in what appears
> to be a "spec book" web page.
> Can you give us a section you have in question?
>
> -Jamie Seidl
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 11:28 PM Phong - Indochine Engineering via
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > NATSPEC in Australia specify the application of mechanical roll-grooved
> > fittings: Provide only in sprinkler-protected areas.
> > https://www.natspec.com.au/
> >
> > I wonder why and if NFPA has a similar rule?
> >
> > Thanks for discussing.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Le Vu Phong
> > Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
> > ___
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> >
> >
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> >
> ___________
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*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>

*Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*

By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training Series for
Sprinkler Fitters
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>,
you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>
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RE: Paint Booth Duct Protection

2021-12-03 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

I should have checked the spelling before posting that 1st comment (damned
auto correct) but I wouldn't say only the exhaust duct requires
protection.  It depends on the arrangement of the hood and filter screens.
Often, the booth, the area behind the filter screens and the duct require
sprinklers and they should be on a separate (independent) control valve.
It really depends on the content of the fumes (flammability)

Bob Caputo

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, December 3, 2021 10:48 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson 
Subject: RE: Paint Booth Duct Protection

Only the exhaust duct is normally sprinklered.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2021 12:23 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Caputo 
Subject: Re: Paint Booth Duct Protection

Generally, if the exhaust duct Carrie's flammable or combustible vapors it
does




On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 9:49 AM Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I have a paint booth with a intake and exhaust duct systems.
>
> When I look at NFPA 33-9.5.1.6 Duct Protection
>
> It only specific size of duct requiring protection, and doesn't
> mention "exhaust" until item #2 and #3.
>
> If larger enough does both set of ducting require protection?
>
>
> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
> Oceanside, CA 92058
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the
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nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL
CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=%2F%2FUhGCzr8q91bup4UXX1CAYqLLRgJizzh7J1704
2y9w%3Dreserved=0>

<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ins
tagram.com%2Ffiresprinklerorg%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Cdwilson%40blackhawkspr
inklers.com%7Cff22abcc7986400b961208d9b5c0d273%7C20b3eafa18334148b9c58e75b
45c105a%7C1%7C1%7C637740662041777897%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wL
jAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=jTO
VwjLs%2BUB6JRm%2BMs04l8SzePr%2Bf3t9BUPSqiB6q%2BA%3Dreserved=0>

*Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*

By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training Series for
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esprinkler.org%2FWWW%2FEducation%2FApprentice_Training%2FWWW%2FEducation%2
FApprenticeship_Training.aspx%3Fhkey%3De88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff86614
9data=04%7C01%7

Re: Paint Booth Duct Protection

2021-12-02 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Generally, if the exhaust duct Carrie’s flammable or combustible vapors it
does

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 9:49 AM Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I have a paint booth with a intake and exhaust duct systems.
>
> When I look at NFPA 33-9.5.1.6 Duct Protection
>
> It only specific size of duct requiring protection, and doesn't mention
> "exhaust" until item #2 and #3.
>
> If larger enough does both set of ducting require protection?
>
>
> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
> Oceanside, CA 92058
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole
> use of the intended recipients and contain information that may be
> confidential or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in
> error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any
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-- 
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you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
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RE: theft of FDC inlets

2021-10-15 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

There are ways to replace the FDC swivels -  here are a few links.  AFSA
does not endorse specific manufacturers or suppliers - this is simply
offering potential solutions for FDC repair.

https://www.qrfs.com/blog/110-replacing-a-fire-department-connection-swivel/#:~:text=How%20to%20install,fire%20department%20connection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOUMQFSTJ6E

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 3:12 PM
To: e...@bamfordfire.com; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: BRUCE VERHEI 
Subject: Re: theft of FDC inlets

Ed,

They’re not using a wrench. They’re breaking out the caps, sticking in a
piece of 1-1/2” pipe, and rotating unit off.

We went to the Knox product which stopped the problem. Some owners added
Locktite Red, which adds its own problem if replacement is necessary.

Knox passes out the key to the FD’s. As they don’t access the building I don’t
think we kept them in the semi-secure, remote release box in the engines
etc.

If address was stamped on would scrap buyers stop pretending they don’t know
source?

Best.

Bruce Verhei

> On 10/14/2021 8:16 AM Ed Kramer via Sprinklerforum
>  wrote:
>
>
> We received a letter from a local fire official saying they've seen a
> significant increase in theft of FDC's.  It's no longer just the brass
> plugs, but now it's the female swivel - making the FDC non-functional.
>
>
>
> Some potential solutions that have been offered include:
>
> * Using a bit of JB Weld on the set screw that holds the swivel in
> place
> * Drilling out the top of the same set screw
> * Replacing standard FDC's w/Storz
> * Installing locking covers (such as Knox #3041)
> * Electrifying the FDC and instructing fire fighters to wear
> insulating gloves (not really)
>
>
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
>
>
> Ed K
>
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RE: Attic protection over a storage occupancy

2021-10-06 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

NFPA 13, 2019 edition section A.4.3.2(16) lists unused attics as light
hazard.  That said, it's always better to consider the definition of the
hazard as opposed to automatically applying the lists from the annex.
Section 4.3.2 defines LH as spaces with low quantity and combustibility of
contents. And of course, Table 10.2.4.2.1(a) will dictate the spacing of
standard sprinklers in the LH space, depending on the construction and
whether obstructed or not.  Unless you (and the AHJ) believe the plywood
adds to the combustibility, there is a solid case for LH design in the
unoccupied attic.

Just my thoughts

Bob Caputo

Have you visited afsasafetyportal.com yet?
It's AFSA's member-only safety resource! This virtual library delivers the
accident-prevention and safety-related information you need to educate
your staff, help prevent claims, and create a safe work
environment. Click here to learn more.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Mike Morey via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, October 6, 2021 11:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mike Morey 
Subject: RE: Attic protection over a storage occupancy

Maybe I wasn't clear, this is an existing unsprinklered building attached
to a sprinklered building at a firewall.  I presume when constructed it
was per code.  The intent is to add fire protection at the request of an
insurance company.  All areas would be protected as stated, my concern is
whether or not a traditional light hazard attic design is appropriate for
the space above the plywood ceiling given that it's a plastic storage
warehouse below.

Mike Morey
CFPS 3229 * NICET S.E.T. 123677
Project Manager * Fire Protection Group
Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company
7614 Opportunity Drive * Fort Wayne, IN * 46825 direct 260.487.7824 /
cell 260.417.0625 /  fax 260.487.7991 email mmo...@shambaugh.com



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Art Tiroly via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, October 6, 2021 11:36 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Art Tiroly 
Subject: RE: Attic protection over a storage occupancy


BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR.


No building size is indicated. Does the building code require protection?

Plastic storage may be considered a high hazard.
If protection is a code requirement then the attic requires protection.
Without protection a fire in the attic will likely cause a total loss of
the building and contents.

Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Mike Morey via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2021 10:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mike Morey 
Subject: Attic protection over a storage occupancy

Applicable code/standards would be IBC 2012 and its references (NFPA 13
2010
mainly) I'm not coming up with a "why not" for this, but it doesn't give
me a warm fuzzy.  I have a wood framed "pole barn" being used for plastic
storage in racks.  The building is a standard 4:12 wood truss building
with plywood sheathing at the bottom of the trusses (with a layer of
fiberglass batts on them above) creating a flat ceiling at 18' AFF, walls
are exposed 2x construction with fiberglass batts.  I can't come up with a
reason I can't protect the space below the plywood according to the
storage requirements (looking at .6/2600 dry system, rack storage of Gp A
plastic to 20' max <5' clear, doing CMDA both because they barely have 18"
clear and they want a dry system) and the space above as an unused light
hazard attic, potentially with "back to back" style attic heads.  Anyone
see a flaw with this logic, or any other pitfalls to watch for due to this
construction scenario?  I don't love this scenario but the customer went
out of their way to avoid sprinklering the building
  origina  lly and built it to the bottom dollar, but now a new insurance
carrier may require it to be protected.

Mike Morey
CFPS 3229 * NICET S.E.T. 123677
Project Manager * Fire Protection Group
Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company
7614 Opportunity Drive * Fort Wayne, IN * 46825 direct 260.487.7824 /
cell
260.417.0625 /  fax 260.487.7991 email mmo...@shambaugh.com



This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain
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RE: Fire Pump Room Sprinkler Classification

2021-09-13 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

NFPA 20 is clear that the pump room is to be protected per EH2.  By
definition of EH2, the presence of the diesel fuel makes it EH2.   See
4.14.1.3


Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of James Crawford via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 12:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: James Crawford 
Subject: Fire Pump Room Sprinkler Classification

We are having a discussion in our and with a local AHJ on the design
requirements of the sprinkler system in a fire pump room with a diesel
fire pump.

Comments have varied from OH2 to EX1 to EH2

Any feed back out there?

Thank You

James Crawford
Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
Phone 604-888-0318
Cel: 604-790-0938
Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca>
Web: www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca>

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RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

2021-08-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Not to mention it’s a horrible practice in my opinion


Bob Caputo, President
American Fire Sprinkler Association



-Original Message-
From: Prahl, Craig/GVL 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:07 PM
To: Bob Caputo ;
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

While NFPA 24 may not restrict the use or installation of certain materials,
the manufacture's listing data may in fact restrict the use.  It's a good
idea to review the listing of the material to see what restrictions may
apply to its use.

Also, some Risk Groups/Insurers also may comment on use of certain
materials.



Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection |
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS



-Original Message-
From: Bob Caputo 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:48 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL ; John Denhardt

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

The prior editions of NFPA 24 do not restrict the use of non-metallic spigot
pieces (riser coming up through the floor from the underground piping)  I
discovered this fact a few years ago, while responding to the question when
doing Advisory Service for NFPA.  I was surprised and concerned for all of
the reasons of exposure now enumerated in the annex when installing
materials this way.

As for temperature, about 8 years ago, I was asked to evaluate a high
pressure problem at a high rise building in Honolulu, where the daily
pressures were excessive. Upon visiting the site, we discovered the
standpipes were interconnected at the top of the building (on the roof) as
opposed to the floor level.  The steel pipe was exposed to direct sunlight
every day...  increasing the system pressure significantly.  We proposed
tenting the pipe on the roof to solve the problem, which it did.

The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal
interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee
Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no
liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be
considered the official position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical
committees. AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services,
and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as
such.


Bob Caputo, President
American Fire Sprinkler Association





-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 10:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL ; John Denhardt

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

Thanks for the additional comments John, oh and BTW, I guess the forum
doesn't do different text colors.

My point was that if you are unsure whether or not an item is being used
correctly, go to the sources, either the manufacturer's installation
guidelines, the letter from the recognized testing agency,  or the Approval
Guide and verify one way or another whether the component is being used and
is installed as it was intended.

There are those out there who will try to gain an advantage over others by
substituting cheaper or more easily installed materials regardless of
whether or not the choice material is appropriate or not.   So if it doesn't
seem right, verify.

As far as temperature exposure versus pressure rating degradation, whether
someone agrees or not doesn't matter. It is a tested and proven fact
provided in the published data by the manufacturer.   I'd be curious how the
NFPA 24 committee viewed this information.



Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection |
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | http://www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 11:22 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

Looking at Craig's comments directly, I want to provide some information.
*(in blue bold)*

1. Go to the manufacturer's data and see if it is listed to be installed
above grade per UL and/or FM as a fire riser. * I am not aware of many
nonmetallic underground materials which are Listed for a fire riser.
The NFPA 24 technical committee acknowledged this during the debates on the
new language which was added for the 2019 editions of NFPA 13 and 24..*

2. Exposure to elevated temperatures such as in a fire event can cause
plastic pipe to fail. The pressure rating of Non-metallic pipe is typically
coupled to the design temperature at which it is intended to be used.  A
class of piping that may be rated for 175 psi at 73 deg. (f) will not
provide the same resiliency at 150 deg (f) and even less at 500 deg. (f).
For example, C900

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

2021-08-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

The prior editions of NFPA 24 do not restrict the use of non-metallic spigot
pieces (riser coming up through the floor from the underground piping)  I
discovered this fact a few years ago, while responding to the question when
doing Advisory Service for NFPA.  I was surprised and concerned for all of
the reasons of exposure now enumerated in the annex when installing
materials this way.

As for temperature, about 8 years ago, I was asked to evaluate a high
pressure problem at a high rise building in Honolulu, where the daily
pressures were excessive. Upon visiting the site, we discovered the
standpipes were interconnected at the top of the building (on the roof) as
opposed to the floor level.  The steel pipe was exposed to direct sunlight
every day...  increasing the system pressure significantly.  We proposed
tenting the pipe on the roof to solve the problem, which it did.

The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal
interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee
Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no
liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be
considered the official position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical
committees. AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services,
and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as
such.


Bob Caputo, President
American Fire Sprinkler Association





-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 10:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL ; John Denhardt

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

Thanks for the additional comments John, oh and BTW, I guess the forum
doesn't do different text colors.

My point was that if you are unsure whether or not an item is being used
correctly, go to the sources, either the manufacturer's installation
guidelines, the letter from the recognized testing agency,  or the Approval
Guide and verify one way or another whether the component is being used and
is installed as it was intended.

There are those out there who will try to gain an advantage over others by
substituting cheaper or more easily installed materials regardless of
whether or not the choice material is appropriate or not.   So if it doesn't
seem right, verify.

As far as temperature exposure versus pressure rating degradation, whether
someone agrees or not doesn't matter. It is a tested and proven fact
provided in the published data by the manufacturer.   I'd be curious how the
NFPA 24 committee viewed this information.



Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection |
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 11:22 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material

Looking at Craig's comments directly, I want to provide some information.
*(in blue bold)*

1. Go to the manufacturer's data and see if it is listed to be installed
above grade per UL and/or FM as a fire riser. * I am not aware of many
nonmetallic underground materials which are Listed for a fire riser.
The NFPA 24 technical committee acknowledged this during the debates on the
new language which was added for the 2019 editions of NFPA 13 and 24..*

2. Exposure to elevated temperatures such as in a fire event can cause
plastic pipe to fail. The pressure rating of Non-metallic pipe is typically
coupled to the design temperature at which it is intended to be used.  A
class of piping that may be rated for 175 psi at 73 deg. (f) will not
provide the same resiliency at 150 deg (f) and even less at 500 deg. (f).
For example, C900 PVC obtains its pressure rating at an ambient temperature
of 73 deg. (f) at which its pressure rating reduction coefficient would be
100 (100% of pressure rating is attainable).  At 140 deg. (f) it's pressure
reduction coefficient is .22 where it has lost 75% of its pressure rating.
This is why we typically do not accept plastic pipe of any kind above grade
for a riser unless the manufacturer explicitly states that it is Listed
and/or Approved for such an installation. * I do not disagree with the
information.  The NFPA 24 technical committee reviewed this data.*

3. Additional support is needed for the riser assembly.  *Agree.*

*What I want to add is that the NFPA 24 technical committee added new
language in the 2019 editions of NFPA 13 and 24 to cover this application.
This material was discussed and debated in detail.*

NFPA 13 - 6.1.4* Underground piping shall be permitted to extend into

the building through the slab or wall not more than 24 in.

(600 mm). [24:10.1.4]


NFPA 13 - A.6.1.4 Where nonmetallic underground piping is provided

RE: Material Prices !!

2021-08-05 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

The AFSA Forum is intended to be used for the sharing of ideas and technical
questions or issues.  We do not allow, or condone any conversations related
to pricing on any level. Please take this topic off line. It is not
appropriate for this forum and will be deleted by the administrator.

Thank you for your understanding.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association

Get in the (Fitter) Zone!
AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during the
workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more here.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 5:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Subject: Re: Material Prices !!

My hogwash radar alarm went off. So I checked. People in the fire sprinkler
protection business did time combing through code and standards books. I
cannot apologize for checking.
US Antitrust laws comprise three acts. One is The Sherman Anti-Trust Act. It
is all about conspiracy in restraint of trade, such as monopolization,
attempted monopolization or conspiracy or combination to monopolize. Wrong
buzzer on that one. The second Act is The Federal Trade Commission Act. It
bans unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or
practices. Wrong buzzer on that one also. The third Act is The Clayton
Antitrust Act. It is about mergers and acquisitions that substantially
lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly. Wrong buzzer for that one
also.
Checking steel prices, the US steel prices are currently 3 to 4 times what
they where at this time last year. The steel prices in other parts of the
world are not exhibiting the same degree of out of balance. The true
antitrust aspect has to do with the price of steel. That alone may not be
what this forum is about, but a good portion of a sprinkler system is steel.
Certainly, business contract practices necessary to ensure the proper health
of fire sprinkler contractors’ businesses so that they can provide and
install effective fire sprinkler systems is forum material.

Alllan Seidel
St. Louis, MO

> On Aug 5, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum
>  wrote:
>
> Just a reminder to the forum that this is toeing the line on
> Anti-Trust Policies. Please refrain from further comment on specific
> pricing of products and proposals.
>
> Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE *Coordinator, Engineering
> and Technical Services*
>
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> p: 214-349-5971
> w: firesprinkler.org
> <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
> <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
>   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>
>
>
> *Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*
>
> AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for
> fire sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays
> whenever possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the
> field during the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these
> webinars will be recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.
> Learn more *here* <https://www.firesprinkler.org/fitterzone>.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:18 PM JD Gamble via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
>> Who all is demanding an escalation clause in contracts right now?
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum 
>> on behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:14:37 AM
>> To: 321 ;
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>> Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
>> Subject: Re: Material Prices !!
>>
>> Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from
>> around
>> $600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently,
>> in pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating
>> this to your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from
>> the recent high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.
>>
>>
>> Skyler Bilbo
>> 217-819-6404 Cell
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I

Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Closets and Clearance from Deflector to Storage

2021-07-01 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

The committee discussion on this change was the in a 400 cubic foot enclosure, 
it doesn’t matter where the sprinkler is relative to the shelf.  Think about in 
rack sprinklers and the product loads…. I agree there should be concern for 
bumping the sprinkler but no one is loading the closet with a forklift so…. 

Bob Caputo - Sent from my iPhone


> On Jul 1, 2021, at 2:52 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> From an old fire guys perspective I’d be more concerned with accidental head 
> breakage than water dispersal.
> 
> Best.
> 
> 
>> On 07/01/2021 3:01 PM Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\19HEF) via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks for that clarification.  I missed that.
>> 
>> Pete
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Dane Long via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 12:51 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Dane Long ; Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\19HEF) 
>> 
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Closets and Clearance from Deflector to Storage
>> 
>> Peter,
>> 
>> One thing to emphasize is that it says 400ft3 not ft2. So, the thought is if 
>> you have mechanical equipment like a furnace, you're not really going to 
>> have much room to store anything in this closet. An example would be a 
>> closet with an 8ft. ceiling can only be 7ftx7ft. This is 49sqft or 392ft3.
>> Your minimum discharge is going to automatically be the 7psi, so you're 
>> going to be flooding the closet anyway.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dane Long, AET
>> Engineering Technician | Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc.
>> P:785.825.7710
>> F:785.825.0667
>> A:   1383 W. North Street  Salina, KS  67401
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\19HEF) via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 10:36 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\19HEF) 
>> Subject: Closets and Clearance from Deflector to Storage
>> 
>> NFPA 13 (2019 edition) states the following in two sections:
>> 
>> 9.5.5.4 Closets. In all closets and compartments, including those closets 
>> housing mechanical equipment, that are not larger than 400 ft3 (11 m3) in 
>> size, a single sprinkler at the highest ceiling level shall be sufficient 
>> without regard to obstructions or minimum distance to the wall.
>> 9.5.6 Clearance from Deflector to Storage.
>> 9.5.6.1* Unless the requirements of 9.5.6.2, 9.5.6.3, 9.5.6.4, or
>> 9.5.6.5 are met, the clearance between the deflector and the top of storage 
>> or contents of the room shall be 18 in. (450 mm) or greater.
>> 
>> Section 9.5.5.4 states "a single sprinkler at the highest ceiling level 
>> shall be sufficient without regard to obstructions or minimum distance to 
>> the wall."  Does 9.5.5.4 allow a sprinkler to be less than 18 inches from 
>> the storage in a closet?  Section 9.5.6.1 does not specifically say that
>> 9.5.5.4 is an exception to the 18 inch storage clearance requirement.
>> 
>> However, if the storage less than 18 inches from the deflector is considered 
>> an "obstruction", then it would seem that 9.5.5.4 would allow storage that 
>> is less than 18 inches from the sprinkler deflector in a closet.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Pete
>> Dept of VA
>> 
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RE: Closets and Clearance from Deflector to Storage

2021-07-01 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Pete,

You are correct. Where the closet is less than 400 ft3, no clearance is
required below the deflector

Bob Caputo




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\19HEF) via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 10:36 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Larrimer, Peter A (HEFP\19HEF) 
Subject: Closets and Clearance from Deflector to Storage

NFPA 13 (2019 edition) states the following in two sections:

9.5.5.4 Closets. In all closets and compartments, including those closets
housing mechanical equipment, that are not larger than 400 ft3 (11 m3) in
size, a single sprinkler at the highest ceiling level shall be sufficient
without regard to obstructions or minimum distance to the wall.
9.5.6 Clearance from Deflector to Storage.
9.5.6.1* Unless the requirements of 9.5.6.2, 9.5.6.3, 9.5.6.4, or
9.5.6.5 are met, the clearance between the deflector and the top of
storage or contents of the room shall be 18 in. (450 mm) or greater.

Section 9.5.5.4 states "a single sprinkler at the highest ceiling
level shall be sufficient without regard to obstructions or minimum
distance to the wall."  Does 9.5.5.4 allow a sprinkler to be less than 18
inches from the storage in a closet?  Section 9.5.6.1 does not
specifically say that 9.5.5.4 is an exception to the 18 inch storage
clearance requirement.

However, if the storage less than 18 inches from the deflector is
considered an "obstruction", then it would seem that 9.5.5.4 would allow
storage that is less than 18 inches from the sprinkler deflector in a
closet.

Thanks in advance.

Pete
Dept of VA

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RE: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand

2021-05-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

I would agree with Mark at Aero when the project is within a municipal area
with a public utility water supply but what if we're designing a
hotel/casino on a reservation where no such infrastructure exists and the
tank will be used to supply domestic, irrigation and fire protection needs,
to include private fire hydrants?  Then what?

Fire flow has nothing to do with system design or water supply analysis for
fire protection purposes. System demand and fire flow are completely
separate issues and are not combined or compared.  When the tank is designed
for multiple water uses, the non-fire protection supply must be piped higher
up so the minimum fire protection water cannot be used for other purposes
and such a tank would not actually have to meet NFPA 22 requirements.  The
demand for hydrants would have to be added to the water-based systems demand
but "fire Flow" requirements would probably not be the basis for determining
that extra volume.

Water supply analysis is engineering in my opinion and the needs of a
project in terms of water supply evaluation should be the purview of the
engineer of record if there is one.

My opinion solely and only.  Not to be considered the opinion of AFSA, NFPA
or any technical committee upon which I serve. (13/25/24/291)

Bob Caputo

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 11:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mark.Phelps 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand

I think I disagree with the statement that the Fire Flow must be provided by
the fire pump. I believe the fire flow is only required to be “available” in
the capacity of the city water main. The responsibility for utilizing it is
completely the domain of the responding Fire Company. They will connect
their Truck to the FDC and  an available hydrant and manage it from there.
In the process of this they may override the site fire pump and shut it down
on a time out.  Isn’t that the standard protocol?

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:51 AM, Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum
>  wrote:
>
> So NFPA 13 11.1.5.3 does require the fire pump to be sized for the demand
> that is on the discharge side of the fire pump regardless of whether it is
> site demand or fire sprinkler demand or both.  If the fire pump is
> supplying both a 2000 gpm site demand and 900 gpm fire sprinkler demand,
> the fire pump would have to be a minimum of 2000 gpm.  (2000 gpm x 150% +
> 3000 gpm).  Correct?
>
> My original question wasn't meant to determine if site and fire sprinkler
> demands need to be added together.  Just if a fire pump supplies both per
> NFPA 13 11.1.5.3, then fire pump gpm has to be able to meet both not just
> the greater of the two.
>
> Thanks,
> Gregg Fontes
> Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
> 209-334-9119
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum 
> On Behalf Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 6:21 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Bob Caputo 
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>
> Lots of great responses to this question, the best of which is that it is
> really up to the local AHJ to determine what will be required.  That said,
> in the context of NFPA 13 (2016 edition) we should note two specific
> applicable sections in consideration of the issue:
>
> First, section 3.8.2.1.3 defines a private fire hydrant as a valved
> connection on a water supply system having one or more outlets and that is
> used to supply hose and fire department pumpers with water on private
> property. [24, 2013] Second, and most important to the question is section
> 11.1.5.3* which requires pumps shall be sized to supply the equipment that
> they serve.
>
>
> The issue of fire flow is interesting and separate because it requires a
> volume of water at 20 psi, based on the construction type and size of the
> building, which can be reduced by 50% for a sprinklered building.  The
> point is that the fire pump cannot make water and can only provide
> pressure.  If your volume is not met, you’ll need a water storage tank and
> a pump. (Both of which are required to be sized for the equipment they
> serve).
>
> The private hydrant is likely required because the public hydrants on the
> street are too far from the rear of the building for normal hose lays and
> the friction loss per 100 ft of hose is about 29 psi.  Some AHJ’s require
> that hydrant to become public and piped separately from the sprinkler
> system, with a dedicated easement but either way, the hydrant is for fire
> department use only, and they bring a pump in the engine when they show
> up - so its more likely you’d need to add a water storage tank if fire
> f

Re: Available Pressure from Fire Water Storage Tank

2021-05-07 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum



On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:23 AM Michael Hill via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> There goes my logic, right out the window..again.
>
> Mike Hill
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 2:21 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Bob Caputo 
> Subject: Re: Available Pressure from Fire Water Storage Tank
>
> No, you are not permitted to use elevation pressure from a gravity tank.
> You do not know the elevation of the water in the tank which is depleted
> during the operation of the systems in fighting the fire.  You are
> permitted to use the pumps productive curve at 150% of rated flow and 65%
> of rated pressure
>
> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:13 AM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
> > I'm working on a project where they are adding a new building to an
> > existing campus. There is an existing fire water storage tank and fire
> > pump  that serves the site underground fire loop. The new building has
> > a very demanding sprinkler system that just barely exceeds the fire
> > pump's pressure available at the demand flow (using just the pump
> > curve as the water supply).
> >
> > Normally, I would be conservative and use just a few psi as my water
> > supply from the tank (as though it were nearly empty). But, is that
> > overly conservative? The tank is mounted on the ground, at the same
> > elevation as the fire pump, but it is nearly 45 feet tall, with a
> > total capacity of over
> > 500,000 gallons. Can I use some of that elevation pressure, or do I
> > need to design and calc as though the tank is nearly depleted?
> >
> > -Kyle M
> > ___
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> >
> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
> > er.org
> >
> --
> Bob Caputo, CFPS
> *President*
>
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> p: 214-349-5965 ext124
> w: firesprinkler.org
> <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
> <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
> <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/
> >
><https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>
>
> *Train a safer, more efficient workforce.*
>
> By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training Series for
> Sprinkler Fitters <
> https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149
> >,
> you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
> Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
> productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more <
> https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149
> >
> .
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Re: Available Pressure from Fire Water Storage Tank

2021-05-07 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

No, you are not permitted to use elevation pressure from a gravity tank.
You do not know the elevation of the water in the tank which is depleted
during the operation of the systems in fighting the fire.  You are
permitted to use the pumps productive curve at 150% of rated flow and 65%
of rated pressure

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:13 AM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I'm working on a project where they are adding a new building to an
> existing campus. There is an existing fire water storage tank and fire
> pump  that serves the site underground fire loop. The new building has a
> very demanding sprinkler system that just barely exceeds the fire pump's
> pressure available at the demand flow (using just the pump curve as the
> water supply).
>
> Normally, I would be conservative and use just a few psi as my water
> supply from the tank (as though it were nearly empty). But, is that overly
> conservative? The tank is mounted on the ground, at the same elevation as
> the fire pump, but it is nearly 45 feet tall, with a total capacity of over
> 500,000 gallons. Can I use some of that elevation pressure, or do I need to
> design and calc as though the tank is nearly depleted?
>
> -Kyle M
> ___
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> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
-- 
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*President*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>,
you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew.
Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's
productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more
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Re: Hydrant barrel loss

2021-04-26 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Sincerely you’re measuring the flow and pressure at the hydrant in the
first place, why would you need to know that?  Just curious...

Reverse engineering the water supply in the water main below?


On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 3:57 PM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Does anyone have any tech data or knowledge of the pressure loss within a
> wet-barrel hydrant?  I've tried to reach Mueller/Jones but their customer
> service isn't answering.
>
>
> Protection Design and Consulting
> Steve Leyton, President
> T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  www.protectiondesign.com<
> http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
> 2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
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>
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand

2021-04-23 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

A lot of this depends on whether the private hydrant is supplied from the fire 
pump or around it (directly from the city supply)

In Mr. Leyton’s scenario of a manual standpipe arrangement, he is absolutely 
correct because a manual standpipe requires manual intervention to be of use by 
definition.  However, fire hydrant needs to produce a minimum flow rate.  So if 
the fire pump in the original question is the primary supply for the sprinkler 
system and the fire hydrant, I would expect the pump to be sized for both 
simultaneously.  The hydrant could be used for something other than hand lines 
fighting a fire within the building served, such as an adjacent wildland fire.  
If the hydrant has an adequate city supply, I would size the pump for the 
system only.  

This is why the local AHJ has to be included in the discussion, so that all 
aspects are considered.  Again, fire pumps move water and add pressure, they 
can’t add water.   

Again, just my 2 cents wort…. Not be be considered the opinion of NFPA, AFSA or 
any technical committee nor the formal opinion of the NFPA 13, 24, 291 or 25 
committees.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
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> On Apr 23, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> Let's change the context to a similar demand scenario where a wet-manual 
> combined standpipe/sprinkler system requires a pump to meet the sprinkler 
> demand.  In that case, the pump can be sized for sprinklers only as the 
> primary water supply for the standpipe demand is pumped to the FDC.In 
> this case, you said that there is a bypass from city water around the pump: 
> does the city water supply meet the hydrant demand in this configuration?  If 
> yes, then you do NOT have to size the pump for hydrant flow because the pump 
> isn't the primary water supply for the hydrants.   They will over-perform if 
> the pressure in the discharge main drops during a hydrant flow scenario and 
> the pump kicks in because it will pressurize the line to its rating - this is 
> a good thing.  But you do not have to size the pump for the hydrants if the 
> primary (city) water supply can meet the demand. 
> 
> 
> The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 13 
> and 24 Technical Committees, nor is intended to serve as an interpretation of 
> the standard.
> 
> 
> Steve Leyton
> Protection Design & Consulting
> San Diego, CA 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 7:51 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Gregg Fontes 
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
> 
> So NFPA 13 11.1.5.3 does require the fire pump to be sized for the demand 
> that is on the discharge side of the fire pump regardless of whether it is 
> site demand or fire sprinkler demand or both.  If the fire pump is supplying 
> both a 2000 gpm site demand and 900 gpm fire sprinkler demand, the fire pump 
> would have to be a minimum of 2000 gpm.  (2000 gpm x 150% + 3000 gpm).  
> Correct?  
> 
> My original question wasn't meant to determine if site and fire sprinkler 
> demands need to be added together.  Just if a fire pump supplies both per 
> NFPA 13 11.1.5.3, then fire pump gpm has to be able to meet both not just the 
> greater of the two. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Gregg Fontes
> Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
> 209-334-9119
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 6:21 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Bob Caputo 
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
> 
> Lots of great responses to this question, the best of which is that it is 
> really up to the local AHJ to determine what will be required.  That said, in 
> the context

Re: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand

2021-04-23 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Lots of great responses to this question, the best of which is that it is 
really up to the local AHJ to determine what will be required.  That said, in 
the context of NFPA 13 (2016 edition) we should note two specific applicable 
sections in consideration of the issue:

First, section 3.8.2.1.3 defines a private fire hydrant as a valved connection 
on a water supply system having one or more outlets and that is used to supply 
hose and fire department pumpers with water on private property. [24, 2013]
Second, and most important to the question is section 11.1.5.3* which requires 
pumps shall be sized to supply the equipment that they serve.

The issue of fire flow is interesting and separate because it requires a volume 
of water at 20 psi, based on the construction type and size of the building, 
which can be reduced by 50% for a sprinklered building.  The point is that the 
fire pump cannot make water and can only provide pressure.  If your volume is 
not met, you’ll need a water storage tank and a pump. (Both of which are 
required to be sized for the equipment they serve). 

The private hydrant is likely required because the public hydrants on the 
street are too far from the rear of the building for normal hose lays and the 
friction loss per 100 ft of hose is about 29 psi.  Some AHJ’s require that 
hydrant to become public and piped separately from the sprinkler system, with a 
dedicated easement but either way, the hydrant is for fire department use only, 
and they bring a pump in the engine when they show up - so its more likely 
you’d need to add a water storage tank if fire flow is the concern.  Fire flow 
is not a NFPA 13 issue but section 11.1.5.3 is. 

Just adding my 2 cents...

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
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> On Apr 21, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've had at least one Official state (opinion) that the "Fire Flow"  @ 20 
> PSI" was never intended to be "provided to the site hydrants". It is simply a 
> recommendation for the benefit of Fire Fighters using their pumpers and hoes 
> to "preserve" 20 psi in the city water main for all the obvious reasons. Ive 
> also has fire fighters tell me that if they know its only a structure fire, 
> (no occupants) they will not pull their suction pressure down below 20 psi. 
> However, if there are known lives at stake, they will go negative on the 
> suction pressure if they feel its necessary. 
> Mark at Aero
> 602 820-7894
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ron 
> Greenman via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:12 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Cc: Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
> 
> Consider that if the building was not there and you could meet the required 
> CFC fireflow for the site you'd be done, just as you would for any land 
> development project, municipal or private. No pump necessary. Then you 
> reference 13 as the place with the sticky wicket paragraph about everything 
> after the pump. Remember that 13 addresses sprinkler systems and associated 
> hose allowances and if your site system could handle both of those without a 
> pump you'd also be done. Since you apparently need a pump to meet 13 
> requirements I'd say your pump needs to be sized for the sprinkler and 
> associated hose stream allowance from 13 only. But then who the hell am I?
> As Craig said, check with the approving authority. And as a bit of learned 
> advice, didn't ask for a solution but rather give that person your read of 
> the rules and how you got there, and then ask if that's how they see it.
> Your job is to come up with the solution and theirs is to yay or nay it.
> 
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:40 AM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum < 
> sprinklerforu

Re: Old sprinklers

2021-04-08 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

This may have been approved by the local AHJ, which would be the
appropriate assumption based on NFPA 25. We are not doing a design
analysis.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 9:34 AM Dale Wingard via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Sounds like the intent was to protect the egress.  I'm not sure about the
> current IBC but there use to be where a max of 6 sprinklers was allowed to
> be supplied from the domestic water to provide this sort of protection
> under certain conditions.  I'm still working from home so no access to the
> codes right now.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dale F. Wingard, SET
> Designer Commercial/Marine Division
> NICET IV #76284
> Water-based Systems
>
> Hiller Systems
> A Division of The Hiller Companies, Inc.
>
> 3751 Joy Springs Drive
> Mobile, AL 36693
> c: 251.509.7108
> o: 251.661.1275 ext. 10145
> HillerFire.com
>
>
>
> Protecting life and property since 1919
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 9:12 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Matt Grise 
> Subject: RE: Old sprinklers
>
> Is there also a stand-alone sprinkler system, or are those the only 4
> heads in the building?
>
> Matt
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 9:05 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Thomas Reinhardt 
> Subject: Old sprinklers
>
> Question for the group. I recently did an inspection at a very old
> McDonalds restaurant in town. During inspection found 4 sprinkler heads
> piped off domestic  protecting the rear corridor leading the exit access. I
> found nothing in the old file showing this installation. I do realize that
> maybe when it was built that the code may have warrant this protection.
> Usually I see this in residential building where the basement store room
> has one or two heads. Any thoughts. Thanks
>
> Tom Reinhardt
> Skokie Fire Prevention Bureau
> Plan Review/Fire Inspector
> 7424 Niles Center Road
> Skokie Fire Department
> Skokie, IL 60077 847-982-5342
> thomas.reinha...@skokie.org
>
>
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Re: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

BTW, I probably should have included in my comments, the requirements for floor 
control valve assemblies in NFPA 13, 2019 edition section 16.9.11, which might 
be applicable to Jerry’s situation.  Again, I may have missed the point of the 
original question…. But I’m old so I have an excuse! 




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
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> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:35 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d ask why. Is the fire sprinkler system acting as detection system for a 
> smoke exhaust system? 
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei
> 
> 
>> On 03/18/2021 8:05 PM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected 
>> from the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one 
>> system because of that.
>> 
>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
>> Engineering Manager
>> MFP Design
>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
>> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com>
>> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com>
>> 
>> Send large files to us via: 
>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0>
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
>> Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard
>> 
>> I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way 
>> to argue it.
>> 
>> I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There 
>> are areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 
>> level are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them 
>> with the same system.
>> 
>> Jerry Van Kolken
>> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>> Oceanside, CA 92058
>> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>> 
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use 
>> of the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential 
>> or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
>> notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, 
>> copying, distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than 
>> the intended recipient is prohibited.
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Re: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Jerry,

NFPA 13 is clear that it is the designers responsibility to design the system 
and chose the design method.  It is the AHJs (reviewer’s) responsibility to 
review the submitted design for acceptance to adopted codes and standards.  
Unless the reviewer in your case is the owner’s representative as would be the 
case for an A firm, the design method is the purview of the designer.

Admittedly, the specific comment in NFPA 13, 2019 edition section 19.2.1 is 
speaking to the selection of a design approach ie: density/area; residential; 
room design method… but the statement is clear in the fact that the design is 
required to meet the rules provided in NFPA 13 at the designer’s digression.  
You may not exceed the allowable area per system, not exceed spacing 
limitations and provide proper hanger and bracing components, and so on, unless 
you submit alternatives under section 1.5.

I would not encourage you to pick a fight with an AHJ, who’s purview it is to 
decide what is compliant or not… but they are not the system designer. 

With an apology if I’ve missed the point of your issues…. the information 
provided herein is an informal interpretation of the standard and the opinion 
of the writer and may not be considered a formal interpretation of the 
standard, may not express the opinion of NFPA or its technical committees. 

Bob 

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org <http://firesprinkler.org/>  
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Spring 2021 <https://www.firesprinkler.org/itm>.

> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:35 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d ask why. Is the fire sprinkler system acting as detection system for a 
> smoke exhaust system? 
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei
> 
> 
>> On 03/18/2021 8:05 PM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected 
>> from the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one 
>> system because of that.
>> 
>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
>> Engineering Manager
>> MFP Design
>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
>> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com>
>> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com>
>> 
>> Send large files to us via: 
>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0>
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
>> Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard
>> 
>> I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way 
>> to argue it.
>> 
>> I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There 
>> are areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 
>> level are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them 
>> with the same system.
>> 
>> Jerry Van Kolken
>> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>> Oceanside, CA 92058
>> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>> 
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use 
>> of the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential 
>> or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
>> notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, 
>> copying, distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than 
>> the intended recipient is prohibited.
>> ___
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Re: Question about a drop pipe size

2021-03-18 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Henry,

I’m not sure why the forum site would have disallowed your question but I will 
inquire with our IT people. 

To your specific question, NFPA 13, 2019 edition was reorganized (as you know) 
and all existing system modification requirements were moved to Chapter 29.  
The use of a 4”  maximum length nipple when remodeling existing pipe scheduled 
systems is permitted in section 29.4.3.  

Section 29.4.6 notes that you may not use this method where seismic design is 
required.  This change occurred many cycles ago after the Loma Prieta and 
Northridge, CA earthquakes showed us that the 1/2” or 3/4” x 0-4 nipples were 
not substantial enough to withstand the weight of the attached drop assembly.

The development of mechanical tee products and the ease of drilling holes to 
accommodate them are a more practical and safe method of providing pendent 
sprinklers when remodeling existing systems utilizing existing piping.

I hope this is the data you’re looking for….

The information provided herein is an informal interpretation of the standard 
and the opinion of the writer and may not be considered a formal interpretation 
of the standard, may not express the opinion of NFPA or its technical 
committees.

Best regards,

Bob

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org <http://firesprinkler.org/>  
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> On Mar 18, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Henry Fontana  wrote:
> 
> Good morning All
>  
> I know I have read that you can no longer remove a sprinkler and add an (1/2” 
> or ¾”) extra heavy nipple and up size to 1” and add a new drop. I have a 
> customer that is asking to see this in a code document.  I cannot seem to 
> find this, can someone please help? 
>  
>  
> Henry Fontana
> Operations Manager (NYC)
> Johnson Controls Fire Protection
> 100 Lighting Way Secaucus, NJ 07094
> Cell: 201-210-9873
> henry.font...@jci.com <mailto:henry.font...@jci.com>
> 

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Re: leaving abandoned sprinkler piping in place

2021-03-17 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

NFPA 13, 2019 edition actually addresses this in section 29.2




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org <http://firesprinkler.org/>  
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<https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>
 

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Development Program. This comprehensive 20-month program provides a blended 
learning environment teamed with robust curriculum created by top industry 
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Spring 2021 <https://www.firesprinkler.org/itm>.

> On Mar 17, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a customer that is being asked to cut and cap an existing system and 
> leave it in place.  I seem to recall a section of the fire or building code 
> that does not permit you to leave abandoned life safety equipment in place.  
> They are being asked to remove the sprinklers but leave all of the piping 
> dead in the air.  Is anyone familiar with this section of the fire / building 
> code?  If so, would you be able to provide the location in the IFC / IBC so 
> that I can forward it on?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the assistance.
> 
> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
> Engineering Manager
> MFP Design
> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
> Gilbert, AZ 85298
> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com>
> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com>
> 
> Send large files to us via: 
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Re: Fire Retardant Coating used in Combustible concealed spaces

2021-02-10 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Actually, the coating would be allowed under the equivalency clause with
approval of the AHJ.

With AHJ approval, the 3000 sq ft rule could also be ignored.  Some years
ago, I made the mistake of saying no to this question while doing
interpretations for NFPA as a consultant and almost got them sued over my
response - so I know this answer really well

Bob Caputo

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:44 AM tstone52--- via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Project is a 100 year old 6 story Steel & Concrete Hotel building. The roof
> is steel framed with concrete above and the Sixth floor ceiling is Plaster
> over metal lath. Over the years the building has been added onto with wood
> framing above the Sixth floor ceilings.
>
> As Part of a major renovation started in 2020, the installation of a
> complete NFPA 13 sprinkler system and Standpipes is taking place.
>
>
>
> A few substantial combustible concealed spaces have been discovered
> throughout the building on other floors too. If nothing is done the
> sprinkler design areas would need to be increased to 3,000 SF as outlined
> in
> Chapter 11.2.3.1.5. The sprinkler contractor and I have suggested filling
> these spaces with noncombustible Insulation.
>
>
>
> The architect and builder are discussing Flame Retardant Coating to be
> applied to the wood framing in order meet the Non-Combustible and Limited
> Combustible concealed space definition. In reviewing Chapter 11.2.3.1.5.2 I
> don't see where Flame Retardant Coating is an option in order to reduce the
> design area.
>
>
>
> I believe In order to reduce the Design areas these combustible spaces need
> to be filled with noncombustible Insulation.
>
>
>
> Would "Flame Retardant Coating" be considered an option as outlined in
> A.8.15.1.2.11 (commentary text) the equivalency provisions in Section 1.5?
>
>
>
> Thank you for your imput.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> G. Tim Stone
>
>
>
> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
>
> NICET Level III Engineering Technician
>
> Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
>
> and Consulting Services
>
>
>
>117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/117+Old+Stage+Rd.+-+Essex?entry=gmail=g>
> Jct., VT. 05452
>
> CELL: (802) 373-0638   TEL: (802) 434-2968
>
>   <mailto:tston...@comcast.net> tston...@comcast.net
>
>
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Re: Distilled Spirits

2021-02-03 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

FM Global has a standard for this specifically.  I recommend downloading it 
from their website.  Great information that might provide guidance for you.




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
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> On Feb 3, 2021, at 12:21 PM, Trillium Fire Sprinkler Design Inc. via 
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:
> 
> Can anyone direct me to design criteria for the manufacturing and storage of
> distilled spirits ( Rum)?
> 
> 
> 
> Any info would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> Troy
> 
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Re: schedule 7 pipe?

2021-01-20 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Jeff Normand is correct in terms of the 1st exposed thread at the fitting 
having less depth of material than a schedule 10 roll groove, however most 
corrosion we see is related to oxidation as opposed to MIC.  The problem with 
roll grooves tends to be water trapped between the grooves sitting in the 
“damned” area regardless of pitch of pipe or the rating of the gasket used with 
the coupling (in dry pipe or reaction systems). 

Bob Caputo 


> On Jan 20, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Jeff Normand via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have been designing with sch 7 pipe for over 25 years. Not sure about
> longevity. But you mentioned A53 unlisted pipe. Possibly getting listed?
> 
> I would really like to see comparisons of sch 7, 10 and 40 for corrosion
> and MIC. Specially treated pipe some manufacturers claim. Always heard that
> sch 40 threads are just as bad as sch 10 grooved.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 12:45 PM Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> 
>> Considering how much corrosion I've observed and documented in wet and dry
>> systems in schedule 10 in 8-15 years - not MIC - we only specify schedule
>> 40.
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
>> Cell: (612) 759-5556
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On
>> Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 11:07 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matt Grise <
>> m...@afpsprink.com>
>> Subject: RE: schedule 7 pipe?
>> 
>> Considering how much "Sch. 7" we've seen perforated by MIC, and also that
>> our firm is heavily invested in the institutional and educations sectors
>> where clients want 50+ year buildings, we only spec' Sch. 10 and 40.
>> 
>> Steve L.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
>> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise
>> via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 7:58 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Matt Grise 
>> Subject: schedule 7 pipe?
>> 
>> Has there been any push/interest in allowing unlisted (standard ASTM A53)
>> schedule 7 steel pipe to be allowed by code in place of the listed "flow"
>> piping options?
>> 
>> Matt
>> 
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Re: Merry Christmas,

2020-12-25 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Thank youSame to you and yours

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 10:38 AM Mario Berrios via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Merry Christmas,
> mario berrios
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Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum

Matt,

Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I’ll offer my 2 
cents worth….  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a letter 
stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage resulting from their 
request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the building.

This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my opinion, 
because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the sprinklers, 
there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding parts.  That said, 
the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not recommend or stand behind their 
product in the event of any such damage.  

You didn’t note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to the 
branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I would 
recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few remote 
sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless, protect you 
liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns and putting the 
responsibility for potential damage on the GC or the owner.  This will likely 
change their mind about doing the hydro before heat is available.

Just my opinion - and is not intended to represent the opinion of AFSA, NFPA or 
any NFPA Committee

Bob  

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
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> On Dec 22, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> we have a GC who wants to hydro test a pendant ESFR system before they have 
> heat in the building. They want to fill and test during the day while 
> temperatures are over 40F, and then drain the system before it gets cold 
> again.
> 
> I thought it did not sound like a great idea, but I can't necessarily find 
> any code or rule that specifically prohibits the plan.
> 
> on the same note - if a pendant ESFR warehouse were going to be left cold and 
> drained, would it be required to pull every head?
> 
> matt
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RE: FIRE PUMP: Urgent

2010-04-12 Thread Bob Caputo

Since your pump is not listed, you don't comply with NFPA 20 so why does it
matter if the standard allows an automatic shut off?   For your use, the
2010 edition of NFPA states the following:

 

12.7.2.6 Sole Supply Pumps.

12.7.2.6.1 Shutdown shall be accomplished by manual or automatic means.

12.7.2.6.2 Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted where the pump
constitutes the sole source of supply of a fire sprinkler or standpipe
system or where the authority having jurisdiction

has required manual shutdown.

 

Regardless of the pump listing or other compliance issues, the answer lies
solely with the permission of the local AHJ.

Important Notice: As a member of the NFPA 13 Installation  NFPA 25
Committee's, this correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued
pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion
of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of
the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is
neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or
services.

Bob Caputo

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:15 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: FIRE PUMP: Urgent

 

Dear all..

 

We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30

story builing.

The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the

supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is

located in the basement floor and is barricaded .

 

The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop

due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start.

Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no

automatic shutoff .

*The scenario they are considering is *.

Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump

will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get

damaged.?

I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people.

*Can we provide automatic shuttoff for the diesel pump. Is it acceptable as

per NFPA?*

Is there anyother options available or anything from NFPA to support that we

dont need automatic shutoff?

 

Please give your valuable inputs.

 

Sam

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RE: FIRE PUMP: Urgent

2010-04-12 Thread Bob Caputo

While pumps are intended to start automatically (on a pressure drop) it is
intended that upon receipt of alarm indicating the pump is running, a
qualified person will be dispatched to the pump room to monitor conditions
and provide shut down after 30 minutes if the pump isn't actually needed.
This is especially true of electric motor drive pumps because it's not good
for the motor to start and stop without allowing it to run at least 10
minutes.  

Even your temporary water supply pump should have a running alarm to some
central station, job shack or similar but again, non-listed pumps are not
the subject of NFPA 20 so do whatever your local AHJ requires

insert stand disclaimer here

bc


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:36 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: FIRE PUMP: Urgent

Thaanx bob

I just went through the same now.

But If am not providing an automatic shutoff facility,how can I avoid  any
damage to the pump in case of mentioned scenario
From the pump supplier I cant expect anything .so from our side what we can
do to make it more safe.?

any thoughts?


Regards

Sam



On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Bob Caputo bcap...@cox.net wrote:

 Since your pump is not listed, you don't comply with NFPA 20 so why does
it
 matter if the standard allows an automatic shut off?   For your use, the
 2010 edition of NFPA states the following:



 12.7.2.6 Sole Supply Pumps.

 12.7.2.6.1 Shutdown shall be accomplished by manual or automatic means.

 12.7.2.6.2 Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted where the pump
 constitutes the sole source of supply of a fire sprinkler or standpipe
 system or where the authority having jurisdiction

 has required manual shutdown.



 Regardless of the pump listing or other compliance issues, the answer lies
 solely with the permission of the local AHJ.

 Important Notice: As a member of the NFPA 13 Installation  NFPA 25
 Committee's, this correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued
 pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal
opinion
 of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of
 the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is
 neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or
 services.

 Bob Caputo







 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b
 Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:15 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: FIRE PUMP: Urgent



 Dear all..



 We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30

 story builing.

 The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the

 supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is

 located in the basement floor and is barricaded .



 The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop

 due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start.

 Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no

 automatic shutoff .

 *The scenario they are considering is *.

 Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump

 will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get

 damaged.?

 I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people.

 *Can we provide automatic shuttoff for the diesel pump. Is it acceptable
as

 per NFPA?*

 Is there anyother options available or anything from NFPA to support that
 we

 dont need automatic shutoff?



 Please give your valuable inputs.



 Sam

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RE: NFPA 25 QUALIFICATIONS FOR WORKING ON FIRE PUMP

2010-04-07 Thread Bob Caputo

NFPA 70E - is the standard they are quoting for electrical safe practices in
the work place and that standard requires the appropriate PPE (Personal
Protective Equipment) when working on energized electrical circuits.  This
includes the proper head cover shield which resembles that worn by bee
keepers, rubber and leather gloves and a rubber mat upon which to stand
while wearing appropriate shoes.

There may be 1,000 ways to die but electrocution isn't the one I'd choose
(I'm still hopeful to be shot by a very young jealous husband)   

The recommendations provided in the NFPA 25 Handbook are intended to provide
a precautionary advisory that we shouldn't stick our mitts into stuff we
don't really know enough about, lest we be severely injured or killed

Have a nice day.

Bob Caputo

Oh, yeah - the opinion stated above is a personal opinion which may not be
considered an interpretation of the NFPA 25 standard nor does this reflect
the opinion of NFPA, etc...
 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: NFPA 25 QUALIFICATIONS FOR WORKING ON FIRE PUMP 

NFPA 25 does point out that one needs to take appropriate precautions  
- see section 4.9.  The Handbook identifies other standards to apply  
for safety precautions.

Roland

On Apr 7, 2010, at 7:53 AM, Tom Duross wrote:

 I think that might be an item in OSHA.  I was told last summer by an
 electrician to step away during a start-up that I need full non- 
 conductive
 apparel in addition to ear-eye-head protection. He said it was in  
 NFPA (I
 looked in 70 and 20) but I think it might have come up in a training  
 class.
 Tom


 I have never heard this even suggested at the NFPA 25 meetings.  Since
 the text in 25 does not even suggest it, I would put it down as an
 over-zealous editor in the Handbook.  I will pursue clarification of
 this with NFPA for the next edition of the Handbook (which we just
 finished working on).

 Roland

 On Apr 6, 2010, at 3:57 PM, cherokeefire...@aol.com wrote:

 NFPA 25-8.3.3.6 Handbook commentary states that a licensed
 electrician should perform work near fire pumps.
 Is the Committee trying to establish that only licensed electricians
 should perform work on or near controllers, or that an electrician
 should always be present?
 Can someone please clarify what the commentary is implying or  
 stating?

 Forest Wilson

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RE: Window sprinklers

2010-03-08 Thread Bob Caputo

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

2010-03-08 Thread Bob Caputo

Thom,

I'm hopeful Mr. Izzo will shed more light on this for us...  it's not a NFPA
13 allowance - it's a building code issue and my expertise is limited to
scuba diving.   


Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
SSI Master Diver Certified

I doubt you could be Wong.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Bob:

Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were
being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance?
What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces
were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there
was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing
down the glass.

As I said I could be Wong.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

2010-03-08 Thread Bob Caputo

Sal,

I assure you, no one thought you were pushing a product.  I was looking for
the education you provided and as always, your wealth of knowledge is
appreciated!

bc

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Bob:

I agree, Bob.   My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for
forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such
prescriptive alternatives.  My intent was to just make the distinction
between a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray
sprinkler that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a
direct equivalent as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing,
where a regular spray sprinkler used for such applications would require
some prescriptive requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA
standards), as you mention.  I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose
of this forum  which is to learn from each other.  Believe me, I am not
looking to push something I cannot sell!!

Best Regards,

Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
[bcap...@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Epoxy hanger point?

2010-03-05 Thread Bob Caputo

Hilti has an epoxy hanger listed but you have to drill the holes 1st so you
may as use the post installed anchors.  Let us know which brands will have
the concrete dust so we can eat something else...

bc 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 12:44 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Epoxy hanger point?

Anyone used or heard of a glue or epoxy for hanger attachment to concrete,
yes for sprinklers.  I have an existing cereal production plant that needs
to be retrofitted.  Drilling or shooting hangers is possible I guess.
Thinking about a vacuum otherwise but that ain't perfect.  They have some
down time but not really enough for us to do our thing.  And I'd certainly
be a preferred vendor if I didn't leave a mess.  

 

Chris Cahill, P.E.

Fire Protection Engineer

Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.

 

763-658-4483

763-658-4921 fax

 

Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com

 

Mail: P.O. Box 69

Waverly, MN 55390

 

Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW

  Waverly, MN 55390

 

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RE: 2 Buildings with 1 AS Riser

2010-02-16 Thread Bob Caputo

Haji,

NFPA 13 does allow adjacent buildings to be served by a single riser but the
conditions are limited. The intent of the committee at the time this
proposal was accepted was to allow a cost effective means to get fire
protection to auxiliary buildings (like schools) or out buildings associated
with auto dealerships and similar where a daisy chained or shared water
supply can be acceptable.  The provisions of A.8.2.5 must be considered when
choosing this arrangement. 

8.2.5* Detached Buildings. 
8.2.5.1  Unless the requirements of 8.2.5.2 apply, detached buildings,
regardless of separation distance, that do not meet the criteria of 8.2.4
shall be provided with separate fire sprinkler systems. 
8.2.5.2  When acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction, detached
structures shall be permitted to be supplied by the fire sprinkler system of
an adjacent building. (See A.8.2.5 for guidance.)

A.8.2.5  Buildings adjacent to a primary structure can be protected by
extending the fire sprinkler system from the primary structure. This
eliminates the need to provide a separate fire sprinkler system for small
auxiliary buildings. Items that should be considered before finalizing fire
sprinkler design should include the following: 
(1) Actual physical distance between adjacent structures
(2) Potential for the property to be split into separate parcels and
sold separately
(3) Square footage of both the primary and auxiliary structures 
(4) Difficulties in providing a separate water supply to the auxiliary
structure
(5) Occupancy/hazard of the auxiliary structure
(6) Ability of emergency response personnel to easily identify the
structure from which waterflow is originating


Important Notice: This correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued
pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion
of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of
the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is
neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or
services.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Haji, Jaber M
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:33 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: 2 Buildings with 1 AS Riser


Has any one come accrose 2 adajent buildings with one sprinkler
riser  ? Is it allowed by NFPA 13 ? Your comments are highly
appreciated.

The contents of this email, including all related responses, files and
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RE: CPVC and Nail plates

2010-02-15 Thread Bob Caputo

It's not an NFPA requirement - it's a Building Code requirement -
specifically in the IRC

bc

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: CPVC and Nail plates

This came up on the Forum a few months ago.
I think it is not in NFPA standards but found in building codes.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne
Martinez
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 5:14 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: CPVC and Nail plates

Does anyone know if nail plates are required by code for CPVC pipe?
We do it as a safeguard but I had a salesmen ask me and I could not find
it in NFPA.
Thanks,
Dewayne
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RE: CPVC and Nail plates

2010-02-15 Thread Bob Caputo

Geo, 

We struggled with this on a project some years ago after a drywall
contractor shot a nail through the 3 x 5 plate we'd installed causing
considerable water damage to his dry wall.  Of course he then tried to blame
us for not using a thick enough plate...  turned out he had a legit argument
in terms of the IRC requirement which specified a thickness and our
contractual agreement tied us to the applicable codes and standards.   That
said, Mr. McMahon, the gentleman from CO was quick to the draw with a
veritable slew of data on the subject and while we beat the rap, we
subsequently changed our policy on the plates we install.   It is specified
in the IRC and the small plates we used to purchase at the local big box
hardware store don't comply.

bc




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:02 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: CPVC and Nail plates

I believe in 13R (and other spkr codes) you'll find language requiring
protection from mechanical injury one could say makes a nail plate
requirement- we didn't' find one in the IRC.

Our AHJ was demanding nail plates that were thinker and a lot bigger per the
IPC and IMC, even tho they aren't referenced standards for sprkr systems,
and why I got heartburn. We were installing nail plates, because you should,
but ours aren't as robust as what he wanted (and may have been spec'd in the
IPC).

glc


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RE: Accidental Fusing

2010-02-05 Thread Bob Caputo

Hey Brad, it's been a while  (I can vouch for Brad Casterline as a former
co-worker back in the 80's).

You might want to remove a random sample of the un-fused sprinklers within
the same area and send them off for evaluation.  It's a long shot but there
may be some benefit to examining those.


Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

Fire  Life safety America Company
3017 Vernon Rd., Richmond, VA 23228
Mobile:  804-263-1577

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Accidental Fusing

Paul,

 

No, I am this person:

 

http://fire.nist.gov/fds/UserHighlight_05_01_08.html

 

 

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RE: How the Heck Did You Come Up With 0.58 over 2000?

2010-01-27 Thread Bob Caputo

Beginning with the 2007 edition of NFPA 13, section 24.6 requires a General
Information Sign on the riser so that all of these design considerations are
posted for future use.  The annex includes a sample of the sign but the data
required meets what you're asking for...


bc

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Smith, Steven
D. (CSFD)
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: How the Heck Did You Come Up With 0.58 over 2000?

We are considering this very idea for the risers protecting storage
occupancies. 

Steve


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org on behalf of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wed 1/27/2010 6:12 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: How the Heck Did You Come Up With 0.58 over 2000?
 
Wouldn't it be nice if sprinkler shop drawings for storage occupancies
included a table or other method to show the derivation of the design
density/area of coverage/head selection etc.  As a suggestion, a table with
the following data:

Storage arrangement - Racks (single row, etc), shelf, bin box, solid pile,
etc
Rack height -
Storage height -
Shelf type -
Aisle width -
Commodity class -
In-rack sprinklers -
NFPA 13 table -
NFPA 13 curve -
Correction for height -

In other words, show the steps used by the designer to get to the selected
design parameters.

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146-1904
410-544-3620
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell


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Occupancy

2010-01-21 Thread Bob Caputo

In my opinion, the question isn't directly an NFPA 13 issue but rather
Building and Fire Code issues in terms of occupancy and allowable amounts of
chemical or hazardous materials within a control area.  Normally, the code
exempts (to a degree) mercantile occupancies where products containing
flammables, combustibles or hazardous materials (irritants, toxics,
carcinogens, etc) are stored in the same containers they are sold in.
That's why Costco, Sams, BJ's and similar can store more vegetable oils in
quantity than a manufacturing or storage use building could have in storage
of a product with the same flash point.

That said, at some point in the process of analysis  someone has to decide
what the corresponding NFPA 13 occupancy use group or commodity and storage
arrangement is, so sprinkler design criteria can be established...   I
suggest this is a job for a consultant or an engineer of record - not the
contractor.  (again - just stating my opinion)


Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane - Vista, CA 92081

Fire  Life Safety America Company
3017 Vernon Rd - Richmond, VA 23228
Office: (804) 222-1381  Cell: (804) 263-1577
 
 




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Keith Pepin
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Occupancy

I am working on a project that doesn't have an Eng of Record. The building
contains large individual shell spaces. The original sprinkler system was
designed for a mercantile occupancy. A tenant has purchased a couple of
spaces and is opening a beauty/hair salon. I don't see the fuel load as a
normal mercantile occupancy would have. Light or ord. Please comment. 

 

 


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RE: Occupancy

2010-01-21 Thread Bob Caputo

Craig,

I didn't interpret the original post as describing a strip center however
while I agree with you in general (mostly that hair salons should be at
least an H-3 based as much on the smells as the heat release rate of patrons
I've witnessed exiting said establishments here in SoCal) but I've also seen
some pretty big tire stores in strip centers, so I'm not so sure the broad
brush of an M occupancy is appropriate in that case.  

bc


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:05 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Occupancy

If this is a strip shopping center it's in the owner's best interest to
treat the entire shell as Mercantile and be done with it.  That way any
retail or service type business can occupy the space.  If you try to dissect
the categories of the occupants as to whether they may actually be a B or
M occupancy it will only create problems down the road when the B/LH
beauty shop moves out and the M/OH Granny's Knick-Knacks and Haberdashery
goes into the space.

And yes, this is a Building Code issue, not an NFPA 13 issue.  The NFPA part
is secondary to the BC issue.

But if the system is existing, leave it alone.  


But personally, shouldn't most beauty salons be considered an H occupancy
and protected with foam-water deluge systems, I mean look at the chemical
list, the smells make me think there are some serious toxics
involved..  ;)


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:44 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Occupancy

In my opinion, the question isn't directly an NFPA 13 issue but rather
Building and Fire Code issues in terms of occupancy and allowable amounts of
chemical or hazardous materials within a control area.  Normally, the code
exempts (to a degree) mercantile occupancies where products containing
flammables, combustibles or hazardous materials (irritants, toxics,
carcinogens, etc) are stored in the same containers they are sold in.
That's why Costco, Sams, BJ's and similar can store more vegetable oils in
quantity than a manufacturing or storage use building could have in storage
of a product with the same flash point.

That said, at some point in the process of analysis  someone has to decide
what the corresponding NFPA 13 occupancy use group or commodity and storage
arrangement is, so sprinkler design criteria can be established...   I
suggest this is a job for a consultant or an engineer of record - not the
contractor.  (again - just stating my opinion)


Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane - Vista, CA 92081

Fire  Life Safety America Company
3017 Vernon Rd - Richmond, VA 23228
Office: (804) 222-1381  Cell: (804) 263-1577
 
 




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Keith Pepin
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Occupancy

I am working on a project that doesn't have an Eng of Record. The building
contains large individual shell spaces. The original sprinkler system was
designed for a mercantile occupancy. A tenant has purchased a couple of
spaces and is opening a beauty/hair salon. I don't see the fuel load as a
normal mercantile occupancy would have. Light or ord. Please comment. 

 

 


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RE: identification of antifreeze loops

2010-01-21 Thread Bob Caputo

NFPA 13, section 22.1.3, item (42) Information about antifreeze solution
used (type and amount) is required to be provided on the plans.  The plans
are required to maintained for the life of the building as original
documents, along with Test Certificates   good luck with that.  

NFPA 13 section 24.6* General Information Sign is new in 2007 but item 15
(16 in the 2010 edition) requires us to provide an  Indication of presence
and location of antifreeze or other auxiliary systems on the new control
riser signage...  perhaps we should remember to submit a proposal for the
2013 edition to add the amount and the type to this signage for future use.

NFPA 25, section 4.1.8 Information Sign  is a retroactive requirement but
in currently only requires the presence and location... like NFPA 13 does
so a proposal here might also be a good idea, unfortunately we're about to
get a new edition of 25 so we're some years out from solving it there as
well.

If your system is CPVC pipe, I hope you can bet on it being glycerine but
short of finding original plans (and assuming what the designer wrote is
what the purchaser bought and the installer used to fill the system) I can't
provide you an answer today.  



Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane - Vista, CA 92081

Fire  Life Safety America Company
3017 Vernon Rd - Richmond, VA 23228
Office: (804) 222-1381  Cell: (804) 263-1577


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: identification of antifreeze loops 

I have a question pertaining to antifreeze loops:
Contractor performs annual inspection and tests antifreeze loop. The 
antifreeze loop does not identify type of antifreeze used, ie glycerin 
or glycol.
How does contractor determine type of antifreeze used?
I have asked this question of a distributor and he said there is no way 
to determine in the field. Said a lab test would be required.
Does anyone have differing views?


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RE: tri seal gaskets

2009-12-08 Thread Bob Caputo

Other than NFPA 13, section 6.5.3.3  Grooved fittings, including gaskets
used on dry-pipe, preaction, and deluge systems, shall be listed for dry
pipe service  ?

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert
Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: tri seal gaskets

Is there a code that required couplings to have tri seal gaskets in dry
systems?
 

Thank you 
 Robert  Thompson 

 DAKOTA 
FIRE PROTECTION 
1710 N. Washington Street 
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 
Phone # (701) 772-8820 
Fax # (701) 772-7932 
Email rob...@dakotafire.com 

 
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RE: Fire Pump Alternate Power

2009-08-20 Thread Bob Caputo personal

An emergency generator serving just the pump or a generator serving
other/additional building needs (such as a hospital/Life Safety Code)
satisfies the requirement for back up to the electric motor driven fire
pump.  

A back up isn't necessarily required by NFPA 20 unless your power source
isn't reliable or unless there are other considerations for the requirement.
Have I missed your point?


Bob Caputo, CFPS
657 Cantara Lane - Vista, CA 92081
Fire  Life Safety America Company
3017 Vernon Rd - Richmond, VA 23228 
Office: (804) 222-1381  Cell: (804) 263-1577
   
   




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:18 PM
To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'
Subject: Fire Pump Alternate Power

NFPA 20 (2007) Article 9.3.3 states An alternate source of power is not
required where a back-up engine driven or back-up steam turbine driven fire
pump is installed in accordance with this standard.

Does the use of an emergency generator serving only the fire pump (no other
power) qualify as a back-up engine driven fire pump?



Reed A. Roisum, CET
Fire Protection

Ulteig Engineers, Inc.
3350 38th Avenue S.
Fargo, ND 58104
701.280.8580 direct
701.212.8810 cell
www.ulteig.com

Energy | Water | Built-Environment

CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION:Emails from this company normally contain
confidential and privileged material, and are for the sole use of the
intended recipient.  Use or distribution by an unintended recipient is
prohibited, and may be a violation of law.  If you believe that you received
this in error, please do not read the body of this e-mail and please inform
the sender that you have deleted the e-mail and any copies.  Thank you.
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RE: Southwest Airlines FALSE advertisement

2009-03-23 Thread Bob Caputo

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this because I don't think it
takes a lot of conversation to set people straight when it comes to
technical truths and frankly, most of the people I know don't believe the
satirical themes they see in TV commercials... well, except for the
Budweiser commercials - those are all true.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
VP National Accounts
Fire  Life Safety America


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 12:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Southwest Airlines FALSE advertisement

Probably because when we talk about sprinklers people will say I don't want
sprinklers because of what they do, you know like in that XYZ commercial.
Convincing them otherwise becomes an uphill battle because despite our best
efforts they already have developed a negative mindset due to their belief
that everything they see on TV must be true.

It's amazing how many technical people have such wrong ideas when it comes
to sprinkler protection due to TV shows, movies and other visual fiction.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
bcap...@cox.net
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 12:29 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Cc: Daniel DeDominic
Subject: RE: Southwest Airlines FALSE advertisement

I saw the commercial and I thought it was funny.  I don't understand why we
get so upset as an industry when we see these un-realistic depictions of
sprinklers.  It's not like all the other comedic stuff we see in advertising
or sitcoms represent reality... besides, it gives us an opening to further
public awareness of fire sprinklers.

I think the more sprinklers in commercials the better - even if they are
deluge system.  Light em up!

Bob Caputo
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