[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Re: Obstacles facing small producers and co-ops in the US
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 01:23:15 - Subject: [Biodiesel] Re: Obstacles facing small producers and co-ops in the US my friend of the small producer business just got a WVO haulers' licence. I wonder what those license fees paid for in county government, and what that changed about the fact that he was already hauling some WVO every time he wanted to make biodiesel out of restaurant grease. anyway I think it's obvious my point is that it's harder to do this legally than people think when they're starting out down the coop or small producer road. We just had a guy from the county household hazardous materials dept join our coop (as a private diesel driver, not a spy or anything) and he reiterated what a few of us were already saying: you can make biodiesel at home or in a very small co- op 'under the radar' and no one will complain, but once you try to get any bigger than a few people making a few gallons for their own needs you will draw massive regulatory attention that is out of the financial reach of small scale coops and individuals. I'm writing all this cause we';ve had a coop for a year now, and there are a lot of others trying to start one (unfortunately based on our model sometimes). In talking to people with these projects I'm finding that a lot of people are getting into this biodiesel stuff without ever having done anything 'on the sly' before and they all want to play by the rules, get insurance and pay road taxes (remember that in the US no one is collecting taxes on homebrew biodiesel!), and they assume that the system is set up such that we can just barge in there with our decentralized energy production and our unprofessional chemicals handling, and the system will move over and make room for us- that since we're doing something green that they feel so idealistic about, the powers that be will make exceptions for us and let us handle our flammables and whatnot with no major obstacles just because the Tickell book said it's safe and OK. Many of these organizer/ would-be small producer people I've met have also never run a work shop of any sort, never worked in blue collar toxic situations, and are simply not as familiar with just how many regulations there are about safety, environmental 'impact', and all that other (usually well-intentioned and neccessary )regulatory stuff we're discussing here. Blue-collar workers tend to be much more aware of these things and don't try to tell the world that they're running a shadetree unlicensed auto repair business in their backyard, for instance. But people straight out of university who are in love with the revolutionary attraction of biofuels and renewable energy are often just setting themselves (and others) up for a major fall assuming that the system is set up such that it is easy for us to come in on the scene and do this co-op or small producer stuff 'aboveboard'. The problems come when, as someone in our coop pointed out, you are simultaneously trying to make biodiesel on the sly without your insurance or whatever and saying 'don't look, we're making biodiesel' and at the same time wanting to jump up and down and shout to the whole county HEY LOOK EVERYBODY!!! BIODIESEL!! anyway I'm not saying that people should break the law to do this, and I am definitely not saying that laws designed to protect the health and safety of workers and of the neighborhood residents and of the environment are excessive, I'm just trying to point out that it's all a lot harder in our region than people might think. Since we all know that backyarders can make biodiesel without any major obstacles and without attracting unwanted attention, it seems that in the case of co-ops some kind of a compromise is a good idea- in our case, I'm suggesting that we split up into 'cells' since our current site is tiny and doesn't produce enough fuel for everyone's needs, and finding a new large site that is zoned properly and affordable is proving impossible. In our scenario we'd train groups of 5 and help get their equipment together, then send them off into people's back yards and driveways and garages to make fuel, where they can meet their fuel needs with small scale equipment without attracting much attention like they would with a large faculity in a public place (the coop is pretty public by it's nature as a large organization). The more visible coop itself can serve as a clearinghouse of info, a training ground, and a way to incubate these 'cells' without trying to become a business (obstacles) or get regulated out of existence for making fuel on a large and messy scale... just some ideas, we haven't implemented this structure yet, tho' we most likely will. mark --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], tomshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to see more discussions about this. The legal and bureaucratic obstacles boggle my mind. There are hazardous material
[biofuels-biz] Sen. Kerry Advocates Reduced Foreign Oil Dependence And Increased Use Of Biofuels And Renewables
http://biz.yahoo.com/rm/030209/politics_kerry_1.html Reuters Sen. Kerry blasts Bush's environmental policies Sunday February 9, 1:59 am ET WASHINGTON, Feb 9 (Reuters) - Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts blasted President George W. Bush's environmental policies on Sunday and said U.S. forces were being asked to risk their lives to make sure Mideast oil flowed. ADVERTISEMENT In a speech scheduled for delivery at the John F. Kennedy presidential library in Boston, Kerry said the United States must reduce its dependence on foreign oil so it cannot be held hostage by leaders like President Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Every day our servicemen and women put their lives on the line so that oil can flow from around the world to America's gas stations, he said. But let there be no doubt, we pay a heavy price. Kerry, one of six declared Democratic candidates who plan to seek their party's nomination to challenge Bush in the 2004 presidential election, said the United States cannot drill its way to self-sufficiency along the lines favored by Bush in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Instead, he urged development of technology to make homes, businesses and transportation more efficient while creating a national market for biofuels from crops, wood and waste. We must forge a new path to create a stronger America, Kerry said, an America where the use of military might is not clouded by our need for oil. His criticism of Bush's environmental policies was similar to that of several other Democratic presidential hopefuls. Sen. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, Rep. Richard Gephardt of Missouri and former Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont each have bashed Bush in recent days for what they called inadequate steps toward renewable energy sources and conservation. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] northern california biodiesel, and blue sun biodiesel
Thanks for the information. Seems like Blue Sun has considered and dealt with many of the regulatory hurdles if they indeed have real plans for these large capacity processing plants. Perhaps they could provide the model for others. Then again, if they are a for profit organization, they may not want to share the information for fear of competition. What of Pacific Biodiesel. They apparently are building plants, and have installed at least two, one in Hawaii, and one in Japan. They must have solved some of the regulatory problems as well, to put up a plant in the U.S. Are you a part of the group in Santa Rosa who plan to open a fueling station. This group got some good press in the Santa Cruz Sentinel about three weeks ago. Can't remember the name though. Is the class you teach available at other times than the one you wrote about? Mark F. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Fwd: Re: Obstacles facing small producers and co-ops in the US
Thanks for forwarding this Keith. A very interesting read. What a pity that in the land of freedom Americans literally in their own backyards have to struggle so much to go into entrepeneurial exciting productive new businesses. What a pity that this is not recognized for the widespread problem and major cause for concern that it is. I really enjoyed the author's balanced perspective and search for a compromise. For example, the way he or she made clear to recognize the legitimacy of some intent in the law to keep workers and communities safe from chemical-handling hazards, but at the same time made clear that the net effect seems to be a clash for nascient efforts trying to make a go of it, particularly if they are not able or are unwilling to meet what sometimes seem like excessive regulations. It seems like a mature recounting of those aspects of the law that seem legit and worth following and those aspects the following of which will invariably lead to zero business and so unfortunately a way must be found around them for now. I wonder that the supposedly pro-business pro-freedom Administration we have in place doesn't ask if there's anything they can do to somehow modify the laws to make them a more reasonable burden. But then I'd have to assume they really mean their preaching about principles and so forth, and I'm not sure they do, consistently. anyway I think it's obvious my point is that it's harder to do this legally than people think when they're starting out down the coop or small producer road. We just had a guy from the county household hazardous materials dept join our coop (as a private diesel driver, not a spy or anything) and he reiterated what a few of us were already saying: you can make biodiesel at home or in a very small co- op 'under the radar' and no one will complain, but once you try to get any bigger than a few people making a few gallons for their own needs you will draw massive regulatory attention that is out of the financial reach of small scale coops and individuals. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] northern california biodiesel, and blue sun biodiesel
Mark, large-scale biodiesel manufacturers have an easier time dealing with regulations than the little guys do. The hurdles I was pointing out are the ones that slow down development of small producer business and of coops- the big plants don't have these issues as much partly because they're being built by larger corporations with more money. It's not that there is regulation that keeps commercial biodiesel plants from going up here, it's more that biodiesel has great potential as a small business, and for the small producers to fill a unique role as small-scale decentralized energy supply, and yet since energy isn't a sphere of small business usually, there are many expensive hurdles to overcome before this is a reality in city areas for instance. I think Blue Sun falls into the big guys category- BUT I don't really know the business well and I don'tknow enough about them. and I;m not sure of statistics on what constitutes a small producer versus a big one- gallons output for instance. ANyway they have some serious investment going into this, and are importing chemists from gerrmany who've worked on similar projects I believe. Pacific is I believe also building a plant i n San Jose- WVO-sourced. They are, you'll be interested to know, supposedly staying away from doing any oil collections in santa cruz so as to leave it for all the homebrewers. So I've been told by an employee whose working on the collections end of it- hope it comes true. as far as santa rosa- I think you're thinking not of that place but of Ukiah, where Yokayo Biofuels operates. They are a biodiesel broker (they buy WVO derived biodiesel) who delivers to retail customers (ie sells them a drum of fuel and a FillRite pump) all over northern california. They also are trying to set up a gas station-style business in Ukiah selling biodiesel, and got a lot of favorable press last month. They are a great example of a small business doing a lot to bring biodiesel to their region- its made it available to thousands of people without having to convince a gas station owner to dedicate a tank (which is very hard to convince one to do due to the economics). I don't have other classes scheduled yet. Join Burnveggies list and you'll hear about any others coming up in this area.. mark At 08:06 AM 2/9/2003 -0800, you wrote: Thanks for the information. Seems like Blue Sun has considered and dealt with many of the regulatory hurdles if they indeed have real plans for these large capacity processing plants. Perhaps they could provide the model for others. Then again, if they are a for profit organization, they may not want to share the information for fear of competition. What of Pacific Biodiesel. They apparently are building plants, and have installed at least two, one in Hawaii, and one in Japan. They must have solved some of the regulatory problems as well, to put up a plant in the U.S. Are you a part of the group in Santa Rosa who plan to open a fueling station. This group got some good press in the Santa Cruz Sentinel about three weeks ago. Can't remember the name though. Is the class you teach available at other times than the one you wrote about? Mark F. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] [biofuel] Re: Fwd: Re: Obstacles facing small producers and co-ops in the US
Hi MM Thanks for forwarding this Keith. You're welcome - same problem you and I both have sometimes, crossposting stuff to various lists, but then some stuff ends up at some lists but not others. This is an interesting topic, IMO, I didn't want us to lose track of what Mark's saying about it. A very interesting read. What a pity that in the land of freedom Americans literally in their own backyards have to struggle so much to go into entrepeneurial exciting productive new businesses. What a pity that this is not recognized for the widespread problem and major cause for concern that it is. I really enjoyed the author's balanced perspective and search for a compromise. For example, the way he or she She. Here's a photograph of Mark teaching at one of her biodiesel courses: http://www.veggieavenger.com/news/imagewindow.php?image=srbdc-40 made clear to recognize the legitimacy of some intent in the law to keep workers and communities safe from chemical-handling hazards, but at the same time made clear that the net effect seems to be a clash for nascient efforts trying to make a go of it, particularly if they are not able or are unwilling to meet what sometimes seem like excessive regulations. It seems like a mature recounting of those aspects of the law that seem legit and worth following and those aspects the following of which will invariably lead to zero business and so unfortunately a way must be found around them for now. I wonder that the supposedly pro-business pro-freedom Administration we have in place doesn't ask if there's anything they can do to somehow modify the laws to make them a more reasonable burden. But then I'd have to assume they really mean their preaching about principles and so forth, and I'm not sure they do, consistently. I think there may be some here who'll be after nominating you for the Nobel Prize for Understatement for that last bit, MM. :-) Regards Keith anyway I think it's obvious my point is that it's harder to do this legally than people think when they're starting out down the coop or small producer road. We just had a guy from the county household hazardous materials dept join our coop (as a private diesel driver, not a spy or anything) and he reiterated what a few of us were already saying: you can make biodiesel at home or in a very small co- op 'under the radar' and no one will complain, but once you try to get any bigger than a few people making a few gallons for their own needs you will draw massive regulatory attention that is out of the financial reach of small scale coops and individuals. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Turk's turbo waste oil burner (new)
This is a new item just in. Easier than the babington. A great veggie oil burner, but will work with waste motor oil, etc. http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/turk/ -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] northern california biodiesel, and blue sun biodiesel
Well? Sure, economies of scale can make a dif on afforability. But I haven't yet seen much in the way of any comprised list of regs that have to be met, or at least not in a public forum such as this. Now would be as good a time as any to make a short and long list and do a run down of how shadetree producers can achieve the exact same end result as commercial manufacturers. As this is an international forum there will be some differences from state to state. But the commercial principals and the environmental principles remain relatively static throughout. So for starters? What about lined pipe in earthquake prone areas? What about annual tank inspections and fees, whether under pressure or not? What about the 110% impervious containment for fluids by US EPA standard? Double walled tanks vs. dikes? Methanol storage in bulk vs. 55 gallon drums? Closed loop vapor containment? Alcohol, caustic and FFA recovery? Wastewater treatment? Time to make a top 40 list for homebrewers. There's no reason to not. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] northern california biodiesel, and blue sun biodiesel Mark, large-scale biodiesel manufacturers have an easier time dealing with regulations than the little guys do. The hurdles I was pointing out are the ones that slow down development of small producer business and of coops- the big plants don't have these issues as much partly because they're being built by larger corporations with more money. It's not that there is regulation that keeps commercial biodiesel plants from going up here, it's more that biodiesel has great potential as a small business, and for the small producers to fill a unique role as small-scale decentralized energy supply, and yet since energy isn't a sphere of small business usually, there are many expensive hurdles to overcome before this is a reality in city areas for instance. I think Blue Sun falls into the big guys category- BUT I don't really know the business well and I don'tknow enough about them. and I;m not sure of statistics on what constitutes a small producer versus a big one- gallons output for instance. ANyway they have some serious investment going into this, and are importing chemists from gerrmany who've worked on similar projects I believe. Pacific is I believe also building a plant i n San Jose- WVO-sourced. They are, you'll be interested to know, supposedly staying away from doing any oil collections in santa cruz so as to leave it for all the homebrewers. So I've been told by an employee whose working on the collections end of it- hope it comes true. as far as santa rosa- I think you're thinking not of that place but of Ukiah, where Yokayo Biofuels operates. They are a biodiesel broker (they buy WVO derived biodiesel) who delivers to retail customers (ie sells them a drum of fuel and a FillRite pump) all over northern california. They also are trying to set up a gas station-style business in Ukiah selling biodiesel, and got a lot of favorable press last month. They are a great example of a small business doing a lot to bring biodiesel to their region- its made it available to thousands of people without having to convince a gas station owner to dedicate a tank (which is very hard to convince one to do due to the economics). I don't have other classes scheduled yet. Join Burnveggies list and you'll hear about any others coming up in this area.. mark At 08:06 AM 2/9/2003 -0800, you wrote: Thanks for the information. Seems like Blue Sun has considered and dealt with many of the regulatory hurdles if they indeed have real plans for these large capacity processing plants. Perhaps they could provide the model for others. Then again, if they are a for profit organization, they may not want to share the information for fear of competition. What of Pacific Biodiesel. They apparently are building plants, and have installed at least two, one in Hawaii, and one in Japan. They must have solved some of the regulatory problems as well, to put up a plant in the U.S. Are you a part of the group in Santa Rosa who plan to open a fueling station. This group got some good press in the Santa Cruz Sentinel about three weeks ago. Can't remember the name though. Is the class you teach available at other times than the one you wrote about? Mark F. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX
Re: [biofuels-biz] northern california biodiesel, and blue sun biodiesel
Folks, I ask for personal reasons (paranoia about word back to our local authorities, possibly getting the inspector mentioned into trouble with his superiors!) that you don't crosspost this beyond this particular list. Our coop, a which is a medium-scale homebrew operation involving equipment built out of several 55 gallon drums, had an unofficial visit (or more like a conversation ) with a toxics inspector from the health department. he was at our site (pre-arranged visit) to look at something unrelated to the co-op. (no one from the coop was present for the conversation unfortunately). The facilities manager of our site (not a coop member, more like a landlord) made us remove all of our equipment before the inspector's visit, then had a verbal conversation with the toxics guy about what we were doing. the conversation was informal. The outcome of it is that the inspector thought that there were a few homebrewers operating in town, and he was worried about them- but it was interpreted by our facility manager as not being a very serious worry. At our site the inspector was concerned about the following: 1. containment (110%. I am unclear if this means that a site has to have 110% containment for all of it's potential fluid contents or only for 110% of the maximum amount expected to escape from one tank- for instance we store things in 6 drums- do we need 6 times 55 gallons times 110% containment, or only 110 percent of 55 gallons?) Typical containment pallets (we have several already, at $300 a piece) that are designed for holding 4 drums, have 66 gallons capacity- ie 110% of one drum's spills. A cofferdam across the entrance to our liquid-impervious 'building' was one solution discussed as suitable containment. Our 'building' was already liquidproofed as part of it's other non-coop use- they store liquids in a tank there- so it already has this cofferdam/fiberglass or epoxy 'liquidproof' liner (ie they painted lots of fiberglass resin all over the floor and walls and checked it for liquidtightness) arrangement, and this is OK by the inspector. 2. closed systems with no vapor escape (we were already going there anyway for obvious health reasons. It is easy to do with processors. It is much harder to do (for homebrewers, not producers with custombuilt equipment) once you start talking about bubblewash tanks. I am of course aware that this is very different in industry- but for a large homebrew operation it is helpful to wash in a cylindrical tank and to be able to see into it. In the case of tanks built from 55 gallon drums, one could presumably silicone a sheet of glass over a de-greased open head of a drum, but condensation onto the glass would keep you from seeing much, I imagine. Haven't tested this glass-top wash tank theory yet. In industry this is less of an issue because 1. you work with something better than a 55gallon drum 2. you presumably have better quality control than beginning homebrewers do and you don't deal with wash problems as much. Or you do acid esterification as part of your process and don't deal with washing problems. And your washing process is presumably not bubblewash. we already do not store any methanol- we let our methanol supplier store it and we go and buy it as we need it, and use it all at once. anyway- those are two issues from a very informal conversation- the guy wasn't inspecting us. I heard about a year ago that the DOE was considering a 'certification' program for homebrewers. Though I think this program is a terrible idea and will result in controls that we don't want (rumor department says that the DOE's biodiesel people doesn't think much of us, and consider us a timebomb waiting to explode, I've heard from a couple of sources)- it might be a good idea to contact them and find out what they think one should do (hopefully without the process of 'asking them' leading to their ideas somehow becoming local law anywhere!). This will be different than what local officials will think- we argued with our household toxics waste management/coop member guy that biodiesel is not classified as hazardous- and had to pull out the MSDS to prove it, for instance- there will no doubt be differing interpretations of safe handling for some of the processes- I can't imagine that amateur methanol recovery won't give some officials the 'heebie jeebies', for instance. yet homebrewers (and distillers) do it safely all the time and it is an important part of the process. anyway I agree that amongst ourselves we should develop some kind of checklist of safety and facilities safety practices. Most of this is just a matter of research on existing regulations and common sense. As I have posted in the past, however, I do not think that the regulatory officials are the ones to do it- and that homebrewers and small producers should somehow be in control of that process... and more importantly that we should be VERY wary
Re: [biofuel] electrical heating question
Yes, 1 watt of electricity produces approximately 3.4 btu of heat - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:27 AM Subject: [biofuel] electrical heating question While we're on the subject of electricity, I got a question about heating elements: in an electric water heater element, is there an easy way to predict the BTU output produced, based on the rated wattage? Mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] electrical heating question
1 watt-hour = 3.412 BTUs. Note the time component. So, if the element is rated at 1250 watts and is getting the rated voltage and operates for an hour, it will produce about 4250 BTUs. Actual BTUs produced will depend on how much time the element is switched on, which is typically controlled by a thermostat. Many electric water heaters come with two elements, so note whether ratings shown are per element or total. Darryl McMahon mark asked: While we're on the subject of electricity, I got a question about heating elements: in an electric water heater element, is there an easy way to predict the BTU output produced, based on the rated wattage? Mark Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
HI Greg, Inregards to planting replacement tress i would go with a native deep rooted tree like a oak or hickery. They are slow growing, have deep tap roots that do not get into sewer pipes or septic tanks, you can eat the nuts and or acorns. Silver maples are notorius for blocking sewer pipies here in detroit, Red maples tend to stay small (very little shade). A little background on me, me and my wife, Ida, are triing to start a native tree and shrub nursery here in Detroit Mich., with a emphises on nuts and fruits. My wife has a Horticultural degree with MSU (MICHIGAN STATE UNVERSITY) geared towards trees. I hope this helps. HAPPY PLANTING, JOHN Todd, I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado.Ê The smallest of the trees ( just kinda skinny, but, tall ) is on the SW corner of the house. The 2nd tree is on the NW corner of the house ( no shade from it ), and has another pine on the neiborrs property about 5-8 ft from it, between the drout and the compatition between the two they are both in bad shape.Ê The 3rd tree is on the SW corner of the yard and even when the shadows are there longest in winter, the shade does not reach the house, in the summer all it does is shade the front yard, dropes needles, cones, and sap year round.ÊÊ Because of the needle dropping problem, gutter life on the front of the house would be 3-5 years if i wasn't up on the roof each week, and after every storm. And then I have to find a way to get rid of all the needles. I'm planning on replaceing the one to the SW of the house ( just not sure what type of tree would be a good replacement perhaps a silver or red maple) Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Civil Unrest
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll intersperse my comments. Motie: I thought your response to Mr. Fairanks seemed reasonable. It isn't as though you are grumbling for handouts, but rather asking to be allowed to do business. That is my position, which many seem to misinterpret as wanting some special treatment. I would be totally happy if we could simply all play by the same rules/regulations/laws. If only the rights of folks to do business were being protected. But under guise of being concerned about this, we see some people (e.g. the poster on the other local board) brushing aside the concern of some with complaints in favor of a seemingly oversimplified argument. Actually, his type is pretty common. They puke out some totally ignorant drivel just to see who will agree with them, then (I'm speculating) they decide by a democratic majority vote that their opinion is factual, and someone with lesser numerical support is to be blocked from disagreement or refutations. In any case, a couple of years ago when Mr. Ventura was governor, I thought I read somewhere that he wanted to help out the Minnesota ethanol cause, but was tied-up because he was clearly against mandates, on principle, and so he had a problem with mandating a certain amount of ethanol use. Sorry if this is inaccurate. That is pretty accurate, and I agreed with him then and now. I will fully support widespread voluntary use, but I can't support a government mandate. Once government mandates something, it's required use is always going to raise the price to consumers, and will usually end with government sponsored semi-monopolies. Regulatory rules applied arbitrarily soon eliminate any serious competition. Newly empowered Bureaucrats deny or approve Permit applications as they see fit. Regulatory rules are enforced or waived on an arbitrary basis. What was your opinion of his view and policies? Did he seem to make an effort to promote what you thought were reasonable policies toward ethanol production? I agreed with most of his Policies, but he wasn't able to implement a lot of them, due to the Good Old Boy Network's influence on regulatory bureaucrats. The bureaucrats have basically taken over the running of the State, by deciding who gets approvals and who doesn't. Most of them are Democrat supporters, so anyone who has connections to the Democratic Party can get exemptions from regulations and have needed applications processed and approved in a timely fashion. Did you ever try to get an audience of any sort with him? I bet if he knew a lot about your case he'd probably care a bit, even if he might fail to help as much as he thought he'd be able to do. I never talked to him directly, but I talked to his personal assistant several times. There was little he could do with all the other problems on his plate at the time. The Bureaucracy is deeply entrenched. I saw him on Leno the other night and he is apparently about to have a nationwide TV show on MSNBC. I don't have a strong opinion of him for or against but it seems clear that he has Presidential Aspirations at some point. I see little chance of him being elected to President. He has too many enemies in both of the major Parties. There may be some minor differences between Repubs and Dems, but they are both on the side of totalitarian government and won't tolerate any opposition for long. I see a change in the future, but I can't predict when it will occur, or what will be the trigger. I am certain it will be widespread. The grassroots level People are nearing their limits of tolerance, from Ruby Ridge and Waco, to Elian Gonzales, to the Klamath Basin farmers, to the Western States Loggers, to NRA members, to the Arizona Militia guarding the border, to the We the People Tax protest group, to Small Business owners. Government Agencies are running amok with no regard to the Constitution or Laws. Judges won't enforce the Laws against Corporate or Government abuses, in clear and direct violation of their Oath of Office to uphold the Constitution. Corruption and lawlessness abound within government Agencies, and the People have little legal recourse left. The Patriot Act and Homeland Security Act are just a couple of the latest straws on the Camel's back. I believe the plan for a totalitarian government has been planned for, well in advance of the present time. It's not been successfully implemented because the Second Amendment has not been totally disposed of, though it has been seriously infringed upon. I don't know what spark will light the tinderbox, but you'll know it when it happens. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo!
[biofuel] Re: Civil Unrest
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did you ever try to get an audience of any sort with him? I bet if he knew a lot about your case he'd probably care a bit, even if he might fail to help as much as he thought he'd be able to do. I never talked to him directly, but I talked to his personal assistant several times. There was little he could do with all the other problems on his plate at the time. The Bureaucracy is deeply entrenched. I need to make an addition to my own post. One of the issues I discussed with Ventura's assistant is the need for a Legislative Bill that will grant Permits to applicants in 30 days after application if no reason for denial is given. The purpose would be to force the Bureuacrats to shuffle their paperwork in a more timely fashion, or state a need for more time to investigate. No more 'lost'or 'misplaced' paperwork delaying the process, or backlogs of many months waiting for approval or denial. If sufficient reason for denial is found, the reason must be clearly stated and supporting evidence included. No more simple 'Application Denied' without a legitimate and supported explanation of the denial. If an Appeal of the decision is filed, the follow-up investigation should be required to include the supporting evidence used to make the final determination. Ventura's Assistant was very interested in that idea. That was as far as it went. If I can't get Legislators interested, maybe I can get a Judicial Precedent set? I was interested enough that I have a case in process right now, holding an Official personally responsible for his determination. He missed a 30 day deadline to provide supporting evidence for his PERSONAL determination. My allegation is that he made a PERSONAL determination, NOT an Official one, as his Official duty, which would give him Official Immunity from Prosecution, does NOT include conducting Fraudulent investigations. I allowed him an opportunity to provide any evidence he used to make his determination, as Proof (Supporting Evidence) that an Official investigation was conducted. His failure to provide any refuting evidence within the timeframe, or request additional time to comply, leaves my allegation UNREFUTED, and as of this time legally IRREFUTABLE! This only takes me to the point where I now posses IRREFUTABLE evidence that whatever investigation he conducted was PERSONAL, not Official. That leaves him without Official Immunity from prosecution, and Personally liable for damages, which are ongoing and cumulative. His Supervisor has until next Friday to provide me with all pertaining documents in his possesion, or he will be charged also, and also on a Personal basis, as his Official duties do not include Suppression of Evidence or Conspiracy to Commit Fraud. My position is that if an Official investigation was done that is detrimental to me, I have a Right to challenge and Refute/Rebutt any disqualifying evidence. To this time, I have no evidence for or against, and have made the allegation that no investigation was ever done. This is Perjury and Fraud, and will be pursued as a personal affront. I have an air-tight case, and very deliberately left no room for Judicial discretion, and if the Judge won't do his sworn Duty, he will also be Sued on a Personal basis. Tired of Tolerance for misconduct, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel Tractor
On Sun, 9 Feb 2003 08:18, you wrote: Hello, I am considering purchasing a diesel tractor to fuel with 100% biodiesel. I am considering a small Yanmar (YM146) mower with a 48 deck. This is plenty big enough to mow my lawn. Does anyone have any idea how Yanmar diesel engines perform with biodiesel? Personally I have never heard of Yanmar, but I have an opportunity to purchase one for the right price. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Dave PS If anyone knows anyone, within 300 miles of Pittsburgh, PA, considering selling a small used diesel lawn tractor, please let me know. Thank you. Yanmar gear usually good quality. If it is indirect, mechanical timed injection, should be no problem (but the usual filter changes, rubber problems may have to be overcome) Go for it! Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7230/view/print Secret Draft Of `Patriot II' Justice Department Drafts Sweeping Expansion Of Anti-Terrorism Act Charles Lewis is the founder and executive director of the Center for Public Integrity. Adam Mayle is a James R. Soles Fellow at the Center. Editor's Note: The following report is available at The Center for Public Integrity's Web site. (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) -- The Bush administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the U.S.A. Patriot Act passed in the wake of 9/11, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated Jan. 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text. The bill, drafted by the staff of Attorney General John Ashcroft and entitled the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, has not been officially released by the Department of Justice, although rumors of its development have circulated around the Capitol for the last few months under the name of the Patriot Act II in legislative parlance. It's troubling that they have gotten this far along and they've been telling people there is nothing in the works. We haven't heard anything from the Justice Department on updating the Patriot Act, House Judiciary Committee spokesman Jeff Lungren told the Center. They haven't shared their thoughts on that. Obviously, we'd be interested, but we haven't heard anything at this point. Senior members of the Senate Judiciary Committee minority staff have inquired about Patriot II for months and have been told as recently as this week that there is no such legislation being planned. Mark Corallo, deputy director of Justice's Office of Public Affairs, told the Center his office was unaware of the draft. I have heard people talking about revising the Patriot Act, we are looking to work on things the way we would do with any law, he said. We may work to make modifications to protect Americans, he added. When told that the Center had a copy of the draft legislation, he said, This is all news to me. I have never heard of this. After the Center posted this story, Barbara Comstock, director of public affairs for the Justice Dept., released a statement saying that, Department staff have not presented any final proposals to either the Attorney General or the White House. It would be premature to speculate on any future decisions, particularly ideas or proposals that are still being discussed at staff levels. An Office of Legislative Affairs control sheet that was obtained by the PBS program Now With Bill Moyers shows that a copy of the bill was sent to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert and Vice President Richard Cheney on Jan. 10, 2003. Attached for your review and comment is a draft legislative proposal entitled the `Domestice Security Enhancement Act of 2003,' the memo, sent from OLP or Office of Legal Policy, says. Dr. David Cole, Georgetown University Law professor and author of Terrorism and the Constitution, reviewed the draft legislation at the request of the Center, and said that the legislation raises a lot of serious concerns. It's troubling that they have gotten this far along and they've been telling people there is nothing in the works. This proposed law, he added, would radically expand law enforcement and intelligence gathering authorities, reduce or eliminate judicial oversight over surveillance, authorize secret arrests, create a DNA database based on unchecked executive `suspicion,' create new death penalties, and even seek to take American citizenship away from persons who belong to or support disfavored political groups. Some of the key provision of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 include: Section 201, Prohibition of Disclosure of Terrorism Investigation Detainee Information: Safeguarding the dissemination of information related to national security has been a hallmark of Ashcroft's first two years in office, and the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 follows in the footsteps of his October 2001 directive to carefully consider such interest when granting Freedom of Information Act requests. While the October memo simply encouraged FOIA officers to take national security, protecting sensitive business information and, not least, preserving personal privacy into account while deciding on requests, the proposed legislation would enhance the department's ability to deny releasing material on suspected terrorists in government custody through FOIA. Section 202, Distribution of `Worst Case Scenario' Information: This would introduce new FOIA restrictions with regard to the Environmental Protection Agency. As provided for in the Clean Air Act,
Re: [biofuel] Diesel Tractor
Yanmars are excellent diesels, and work well on biodiesel. My grandfather and I ran a marine diesel business and resold yanmars for many years in the 70's and 80's. We will be doing a WVO conversion on one sometime this year. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 5:10 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Diesel Tractor On Sun, 9 Feb 2003 08:18, you wrote: Hello, I am considering purchasing a diesel tractor to fuel with 100% biodiesel. I am considering a small Yanmar (YM146) mower with a 48 deck. This is plenty big enough to mow my lawn. Does anyone have any idea how Yanmar diesel engines perform with biodiesel? Personally I have never heard of Yanmar, but I have an opportunity to purchase one for the right price. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Dave PS If anyone knows anyone, within 300 miles of Pittsburgh, PA, considering selling a small used diesel lawn tractor, please let me know. Thank you. Yanmar gear usually good quality. If it is indirect, mechanical timed injection, should be no problem (but the usual filter changes, rubber problems may have to be overcome) Go for it! Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Sen. Kerry Advocates Reduced Foreign Oil Dependence And Increased Use Of Biofuels And Renewables
http://biz.yahoo.com/rm/030209/politics_kerry_1.html Reuters Sen. Kerry blasts Bush's environmental policies Sunday February 9, 1:59 am ET WASHINGTON, Feb 9 (Reuters) - Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts blasted President George W. Bush's environmental policies on Sunday and said U.S. forces were being asked to risk their lives to make sure Mideast oil flowed. ADVERTISEMENT In a speech scheduled for delivery at the John F. Kennedy presidential library in Boston, Kerry said the United States must reduce its dependence on foreign oil so it cannot be held hostage by leaders like President Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Every day our servicemen and women put their lives on the line so that oil can flow from around the world to America's gas stations, he said. But let there be no doubt, we pay a heavy price. Kerry, one of six declared Democratic candidates who plan to seek their party's nomination to challenge Bush in the 2004 presidential election, said the United States cannot drill its way to self-sufficiency along the lines favored by Bush in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Instead, he urged development of technology to make homes, businesses and transportation more efficient while creating a national market for biofuels from crops, wood and waste. We must forge a new path to create a stronger America, Kerry said, an America where the use of military might is not clouded by our need for oil. His criticism of Bush's environmental policies was similar to that of several other Democratic presidential hopefuls. Sen. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, Rep. Richard Gephardt of Missouri and former Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont each have bashed Bush in recent days for what they called inadequate steps toward renewable energy sources and conservation. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
motie wrote: http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7230/view/print Secret Draft Of `Patriot II' Justice Department Drafts Sweeping Expansion Of Anti-Terrorism Act Other concerns of unrest that stir the imagination -- If You Want To Win An Election, Just Control The Voting Machines by Thom Hartmann Published on Friday, January 31, 2003 by CommonDreams.org Maybe Nebraska Republican Chuck Hagel honestly won two US Senate elections. Maybe it's true that the citizens of Georgia simply decided that incumbent Democratic Senator Max Cleland, a wildly popular war veteran who lost three limbs in Vietnam, was, as his successful Republican challenger suggested in his campaign ads, too unpatriotic to remain in the Senate. Maybe George W. Bush, Alabama's new Republican governor Bob Riley, and a small but congressionally decisive handful of other long-shot Republican candidates really did win those states where conventional wisdom and straw polls showed them losing in the last few election cycles. Continued @ http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-01.htm C.I.A. and FBI Think that the Bush Cartel is Cooking the Books to Build a Case Against Iraq Date: February 2, 2003 at 7:42 am PST Split at C.I.A. and F.B.I. on Iraqi Ties to Al Qaeda By JAMES RISEN and DAVID JOHNSTON WASHINGTON, Feb. 1 ÷ The Bush administration's efforts to build a case for war against Iraq using intelligence to link it to Al Qaeda and the development of prohibited weapons has created friction within United States intelligence agencies, government officials said. Some analysts at the Central Intelligence Agency have complained that senior administration officials have exaggerated the significance of some intelligence reports about Iraq, particularly about its possible links to terrorism, in order to strengthen their political argument for war, government officials said. At the Federal Bureau of Investigation, some investigators said they were baffled by the Bush administration's insistence on a solid link between Iraq and Osama bin Laden's network. We've been looking at this hard for more than a year and you know what, we just don't think it's there, a government official said. Continued @ http://www.vegsource.com/talk/flame/messages/74577.html - News of Bogus UK Intelligence Report Sweeping the Planet - Blair Government Facing Imminent Crisis - Revelation May Speed Up Iraqi Invasion Britain's Intelligence Dossier on Iraq was Plagiarized from a Grad Student by Michael C. Ruppert Feb. 6, 2003, 2230 hrs, PST, (FTW) - A story is sweeping the world tonight and it says a great deal about those who are forcing the world into a war it does not want. The famed dossier presented by British Prime Minister Tony Blair to his Parliament was plagiarized from two articles and a September 2002 research paper submitted by a graduate student. Worse, the Iraq described by the graduate student is not the Iraq of 2003 but the Iraq of 1991. So glaring was the theft of intellectual property that the official British document even cut and pasted whole verbatim segments of the research paper, including grammatical errors, and presented the findings as the result of intense work by British intelligence services. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell both praised and quoted that same British report in his presentation at the United Nations yesterday. Continued @ http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/020603_plagiarized.html Real Authors of Iraq Dossier Blast Blair Exclusive By Gary Jones And Alexandra Williams In Los Angeles Feb 8 2003 Journalist Sean Boyne and student Ibrahim al-Marashi have attacked Tony Blair for using their reports to call for war against Iraq. Both men are against the war on Iraq and believe the 'dossier' is one part of a massive media misinformation campaign. Continued @ http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/1571472.php Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
A article that sums up recent events and doesn't hold back -- Fake terror alerts: by John Kaminski 2-8-3 http://www.timewedo.com/special/kaminski/fake.shtml How stupid do they think we are? Only hours after our much-praised Secretary of State is revealed to have been using material plagiarized from a college student to justify why we're going to kill thousands of people with bombs, our government issues a terror alert and expects us to believe it? And how stupid are we? We believe it. Everybody takes it seriously even though Colin Powell has been shown to have perpetrated a colossal lie before the entire world, sitting in front of the assembled multitude of rectitude at the United Nations, exposed as having tried to pass off a decade-old college post-graduate thesis as supposedly cutting-edge Department of Defense intelligence. Used before the most august leaders of the world, this is supposed to be the best we can do? For all that money in the defense budget? I mean, shouldn't we be embarrassed to be caught in such a childish lie? Could the U.S. government have reached a new low in their sluggish and unintelligent efforts to convince the world it should bomb everything that doesn't love our freedom? But it didn't matter. The American people have become such dullards that apparently nobody made the connection concerning lying about the reasons for bombing Iraq and lying about the terror alert. Certainly not the TV news robots. Stupidest of all? The terror alert was meant to cover up the Secretary of State's very own sophomoric faux pas, but the piggies needn't have bothered. The TV anchorpeople, who worry a lot more about their hair than they do the fate of the world, didn't even blink an eye, didn't even make the connection, that if Powell is fabricating evidence culled from the out-of-date research ÷ the grad student's work was assessing conditions in Iraq more than a decade ago ÷ then what possible evidence could this most humane member of the Bush Cabal of Death have been using to suddenly whip up a new terror alert ÷ which served no greater purpose than to take the world's focus off his own obvious incompetence and insincerity. His own lies. There could be no clearer evidence that the United States is lying ÷ not only about its own objectives but also about its own methods, its own performance ÷ and, as I'm sure our genuine enemies would notice, and most dangerous of all ÷ its actual capabilities. There may be no doubt that the U.S. could totally vaporize Baghdad, and no doubt that America's demonic weapons of mass destruction have turned large swaths of Third World countries into radioactive wastelands, but there are real doubts that this two-faced gang of armchair cutthroats have the ability, the will or the intent to defend our country. Just look at the investigation into 9/11, the biggest crime in American history, and let me know if you see one. Just look at Enron, the biggest robbery in American history, and let me know if you see the big perps being brought to justice. Lies. Everywhere you turn are lies, couched in trite buzzphrases, uttered by incompetent functionaries like Ashcroft, who couldn't even make a decent middle school debate team, not to mention Bush, who will never learn that sincere statements later learned to be false mean you can never reach people again. Or maybe you can. Maybe people don't really care if the world is destroyed, if their own sons return to the Fatherland contaminated by radioactivity and poison vaccines. The insincerely enraptured media suckups, who have their own challenges to overcome, insist Bush is popular, but average people at the shopping center now only say that if they think the Homeland Security camera is on them. Lies. Like the new information about the Patriot missiles that the U.S. has sold to practically every country that wanted one. During the first Gulf War massacre, the Pentagon claimed a 100 percent kill-ratio against those evil Scud missiles launched by Saddam. Now the news is the Patriot missiles never hit a single Scud, or that the kill-ratio was somewhere in the range of 7 percent, at best. Just like the phony U.S. missile tests we see in the news every now and then. Those missiles can't hit spit unless there's a GPS beacon in the target. But the well-coiffed media harlots always reports those tests as if they were some actual triumph of technology, rather than the totally bogus corporate political propaganda they are. Speaking of that, did you hear Raytheon, the company that made the Patriot missiles, was also hired to evaluate their performance, for a cool half million? It's the Arthur Andersen principle, still working fine. Our genuine enemies ÷ as opposed to the ones cooked up at CIA secret meetings and funded covertly by third parties (are you listening, Bob Graham?) ÷ must be noticing that a Patriot
[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Re: Obstacles facing small producers and co-ops in the US
Thanks for forwarding this Keith. A very interesting read. What a pity that in the land of freedom Americans literally in their own backyards have to struggle so much to go into entrepeneurial exciting productive new businesses. What a pity that this is not recognized for the widespread problem and major cause for concern that it is. I really enjoyed the author's balanced perspective and search for a compromise. For example, the way he or she made clear to recognize the legitimacy of some intent in the law to keep workers and communities safe from chemical-handling hazards, but at the same time made clear that the net effect seems to be a clash for nascient efforts trying to make a go of it, particularly if they are not able or are unwilling to meet what sometimes seem like excessive regulations. It seems like a mature recounting of those aspects of the law that seem legit and worth following and those aspects the following of which will invariably lead to zero business and so unfortunately a way must be found around them for now. I wonder that the supposedly pro-business pro-freedom Administration we have in place doesn't ask if there's anything they can do to somehow modify the laws to make them a more reasonable burden. But then I'd have to assume they really mean their preaching about principles and so forth, and I'm not sure they do, consistently. anyway I think it's obvious my point is that it's harder to do this legally than people think when they're starting out down the coop or small producer road. We just had a guy from the county household hazardous materials dept join our coop (as a private diesel driver, not a spy or anything) and he reiterated what a few of us were already saying: you can make biodiesel at home or in a very small co- op 'under the radar' and no one will complain, but once you try to get any bigger than a few people making a few gallons for their own needs you will draw massive regulatory attention that is out of the financial reach of small scale coops and individuals. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 22:59 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in your area worth messing with it? I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard wood. How much do they want to charge you for hauling it away? (Whether they actually haul it or not?) I'm not sure, because it is worked into the price of firewood and the actual 'removal' of the tree. Will they 'sell' it to you at a discount price, seeing as how their transport costs would be non-existant? Didn't ask. The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I would still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw new ). I was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water faster and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] ot: new origins of life theory
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021204080856.htm based on a few past conversations here, I think some of the folks here seem to have a general strong interest in planetary science, etc., so I thought to pass this on. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
I had thought about Oak, but they grow to slowly for were I was needing it, Hickories don't normally do well around here (short growing season among other things). I'm not to worried about the sewer line problem, I was going to plant on the south east corner and the south side of the house and the sewer line goes out the west side. Red Maples ( not to be confused with Scarlet Maples witch stay under 30 ft. ) get about as big as the Silver Maples, in fact I have seen a Silver x Red cross that is supposed to have the autumn color and gracefulness of the Red but the growing speed of the Silver. Perhaps an Ash on the southwest corner? Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 01:08 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie HI Greg, Inregards to planting replacement tress i would go with a native deep rooted tree like a oak or hickery. They are slow growing, have deep tap roots that do not get into sewer pipes or septic tanks, you can eat the nuts and or acorns. Silver maples are notorius for blocking sewer pipies here in detroit, Red maples tend to stay small (very little shade). A little background on me, me and my wife, Ida, are triing to start a native tree and shrub nursery here in Detroit Mich., with a emphises on nuts and fruits. My wife has a Horticultural degree with MSU (MICHIGAN STATE UNVERSITY) geared towards trees. I hope this helps. HAPPY PLANTING, JOHN Todd, I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The smallest of the trees ( just kinda skinny, but, tall ) is on the SW corner of the house. The 2nd tree is on the NW corner of the house ( no shade from it ), and has another pine on the neiborrs property about 5-8 ft from it, between the drout and the compatition between the two they are both in bad shape. The 3rd tree is on the SW corner of the yard and even when the shadows are there longest in winter, the shade does not reach the house, in the summer all it does is shade the front yard, dropes needles, cones, and sap year round. Because of the needle dropping problem, gutter life on the front of the house would be 3-5 years if i wasn't up on the roof each week, and after every storm. And then I have to find a way to get rid of all the needles. I'm planning on replaceing the one to the SW of the house ( just not sure what type of tree would be a good replacement perhaps a silver or red maple) Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Re: Obstacles facing small producers and co-ops in the US
Hi MM Thanks for forwarding this Keith. You're welcome - same problem you and I both have sometimes, crossposting stuff to various lists, but then some stuff ends up at some lists but not others. This is an interesting topic, IMO, I didn't want us to lose track of what Mark's saying about it. A very interesting read. What a pity that in the land of freedom Americans literally in their own backyards have to struggle so much to go into entrepeneurial exciting productive new businesses. What a pity that this is not recognized for the widespread problem and major cause for concern that it is. I really enjoyed the author's balanced perspective and search for a compromise. For example, the way he or she She. Here's a photograph of Mark teaching at one of her biodiesel courses: http://www.veggieavenger.com/news/imagewindow.php?image=srbdc-40 made clear to recognize the legitimacy of some intent in the law to keep workers and communities safe from chemical-handling hazards, but at the same time made clear that the net effect seems to be a clash for nascient efforts trying to make a go of it, particularly if they are not able or are unwilling to meet what sometimes seem like excessive regulations. It seems like a mature recounting of those aspects of the law that seem legit and worth following and those aspects the following of which will invariably lead to zero business and so unfortunately a way must be found around them for now. I wonder that the supposedly pro-business pro-freedom Administration we have in place doesn't ask if there's anything they can do to somehow modify the laws to make them a more reasonable burden. But then I'd have to assume they really mean their preaching about principles and so forth, and I'm not sure they do, consistently. I think there may be some here who'll be after nominating you for the Nobel Prize for Understatement for that last bit, MM. :-) Regards Keith anyway I think it's obvious my point is that it's harder to do this legally than people think when they're starting out down the coop or small producer road. We just had a guy from the county household hazardous materials dept join our coop (as a private diesel driver, not a spy or anything) and he reiterated what a few of us were already saying: you can make biodiesel at home or in a very small co- op 'under the radar' and no one will complain, but once you try to get any bigger than a few people making a few gallons for their own needs you will draw massive regulatory attention that is out of the financial reach of small scale coops and individuals. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] electrical heating question
kilowatt hour (kWh or kw hr) the commercial unit of electric energy. One kilowatt hour represents the amount of energy delivered a rate of 1000 watts over a period of one hour. Since the watt is 1 joule/sec and there are 3600 seconds in an hour, the kilowatt hour is equivalent to exactly 3.6 megajoules of energy, or about 3412.141 Btu, 859.846 (kilogram) Calories, or about 2.655 million foot pounds. Kirk -Original Message- From: girl mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:28 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] electrical heating question While we're on the subject of electricity, I got a question about heating elements: in an electric water heater element, is there an easy way to predict the BTU output produced, based on the rated wattage? Mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] electrical heating question
Josh Madison has a great little free program: http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/ where you can get all the conversions you need. Watt conversion is under the energy tab. --- Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Mark Sylaart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] electrical heating question Yes, 1 watt of electricity produces approximately 3.4 btu of heat - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:27 AM Subject: [biofuel] electrical heating question While we're on the subject of electricity, I got a question about heating elements: in an electric water heater element, is there an easy way to predict the BTU output produced, based on the rated wattage? Mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
What doesn't the article hold back on, the truth or BS. Do you really believe Secretary of State Colin Powell plagiarized material from a college student for his speech to the United Nations. He has the total U.S. Intelligence gathering agencies to use at his disposal, and he plagiarized from a college student. I believe the article is a little full of something. Harley -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 10:09 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest? A article that sums up recent events and doesn't hold back -- Fake terror alerts: by John Kaminski 2-8-3 http://www..timewedo.com/special/kaminski/fake.shtml How stupid do they think we are? Only hours after our much-praised Secretary of State is revealed to have been using material plagiarized from a college student to justify why we're going to kill thousands of people with bombs, our government issues a terror alert and expects us to believe it? And how stupid are we? We believe it. Everybody takes it seriously even though Colin Powell has been shown to have perpetrated a colossal lie before the entire world, sitting in front of the assembled multitude of rectitude at the United Nations, exposed as having tried to pass off a decade-old college post-graduate thesis as supposedly cutting-edge Department of Defense intelligence. Used before the most august leaders of the world, this is supposed to be the best we can do? For all that money in the defense budget? I mean, shouldn't we be embarrassed to be caught in such a childish lie? Could the U.S. government have reached a new low in their sluggish and unintelligent efforts to convince the world it should bomb everything that doesn't love our freedom? But it didn't matter. The American people have become such dullards that apparently nobody made the connection concerning lying about the reasons for bombing Iraq and lying about the terror alert. Certainly not the TV news robots. Stupidest of all? The terror alert was meant to cover up the Secretary of State's very own sophomoric faux pas, but the piggies needn't have bothered. The TV anchorpeople, who worry a lot more about their hair than they do the fate of the world, didn't even blink an eye, didn't even make the connection, that if Powell is fabricating evidence culled from the out-of-date research ÷ the grad student's work was assessing conditions in Iraq more than a decade ago ÷ then what possible evidence could this most humane member of the Bush Cabal of Death have been using to suddenly whip up a new terror alert ÷ which served no greater purpose than to take the world's focus off his own obvious incompetence and insincerity. His own lies. There could be no clearer evidence that the United States is lying ÷ not only about its own objectives but also about its own methods, its own performance ÷ and, as I'm sure our genuine enemies would notice, and most dangerous of all ÷ its actual capabilities. There may be no doubt that the U.S. could totally vaporize Baghdad, and no doubt that America's demonic weapons of mass destruction have turned large swaths of Third World countries into radioactive wastelands, but there are real doubts that this two-faced gang of armchair cutthroats have the ability, the will or the intent to defend our country. Just look at the investigation into 9/11, the biggest crime in American history, and let me know if you see one. Just look at Enron, the biggest robbery in American history, and let me know if you see the big perps being brought to justice. Lies. Everywhere you turn are lies, couched in trite buzzphrases, uttered by incompetent functionaries like Ashcroft, who couldn't even make a decent middle school debate team, not to mention Bush, who will never learn that sincere statements later learned to be false mean you can never reach people again. Or maybe you can. Maybe people don't really care if the world is destroyed, if their own sons return to the Fatherland contaminated by radioactivity and poison vaccines.. The insincerely enraptured media suckups, who have their own challenges to overcome, insist Bush is popular, but average people at the shopping center now only say that if they think the Homeland Security camera is on them. Lies. Like the new information about the Patriot missiles that the U.S. has sold to practically every country that wanted one. During the first Gulf War massacre, the Pentagon claimed a 100 percent kill-ratio against those evil Scud missiles launched by Saddam. Now the news is the Patriot missiles never hit a single Scud, or that the kill-ratio was somewhere in the range of 7 percent, at best. Just like the phony U.S. missile tests we see in the news every now and then. Those missiles can't hit spit unless there's a GPS beacon in the target. But
RE: California solar penalty Re: [biofuel] understatement
Dear Girlmark: Who would receive the monies from the solar tax? Would the collected Solar tax monies go to the utilities company, or the State of California? Who is going to profit from the proposed tax? Harley -Original Message- From: girl mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:14 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: California solar penalty Re: [biofuel] understatement On the topic of bald-faced, there was a post here a few days ago by solar installer (I think) Len Walde about the proposed California penalty against homeowners who installed grid-tied solar (which most of them did with a state-sponsored rebate!) . I think this is one of the most recently outrageous energy issues I've heard aobut in a while- and like Len says, it's imperative that this be stopped. The proposal, backed by the same utility companies who brought you the California energy crisis, allows for the utilities to install a meter on a homeowners' property to meter how much electricity they have generated with their PV system, and to then charge the homeowner what they euphemistically call an 'exit fee'- and what we are calling a solar tax- a penalty for not buying overpriced dirty fossil or nuke-produced electricity from the utilities. This is so outrageous, and it sets a terrible precedent in the fight for renewable energy use- if they can get away with this I imagine that someday Big Oil will push for some similar proposal for those of us not using their product (of course Big Oil already gets massive subsidies in the form of the financial and social costs of fossil fuels, taxation to fund war brought on by oil politics, environmental damage, and healthcare costs due to pollution which keep the fossil energy economy rolling. And we pay these taxes (they aren't coming from your 'fuel' tax) regardless of whether we use gasoline or not) . See Len's post from a few days ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/20683 or the website of one group working to stop this proposal: http://www.californiasolarcenter.org/cpuc2003.html -Mark At 10:30 AM 2/9/2003 -0800, you wrote: burden. But then I'd have to assume they really mean their preaching about principles and so forth, and I'm not sure they do, consistently. I think there may be some here who'll be after nominating you for the Nobel Prize for Understatement for that last bit, MM. :-) I'll take it, but seriously I want to make a follow-on point: I think this is one of the most underexploited intellectual points of vulnerability of the folks who are presently attempting to write U.S. Energy Policy: This is Hypocrisy with a capital H. They say they are pro-free-market but in fact they seem to be pro-free-market generally when it is expedient for them. Recently I made the case to someone privately that I think there are two specific examples of this that bother me and that are insulting: the 2 year old case of the proposed tax breaks for drilling in ANWR (something like just under $30 billion, I know I've mentioned it many times, but it is as insulting now as it was then) and the more recent attempt to *raise* the already massive tax breaks for purchase of the largest (over 6000 pounds I believe) civilian SUVs such as the Cadillac Escalade. These tax breaks, in selectively forgiving the tax debt of some Americans, mean that others will have to make up those government revenues. They seem to be the preferred method of favoritism of Conservatives. It is as though they want to believe that we are not intelligent enough to grasp that they are an indirect form of subsidy. If there is such as thing as Conservativism that some of us admire (for me there is), then I think perhaps this brand of massive tax breaks for some while adding burden to others might not sit well with the better Conservatives, but they don't seem to be speaking up about it. So far as I'm concerned, it's still statism, and if it's not direct socialism (direct subsidization) then it's indirect socialism and arguably all that much more slimy and hypocritcal, coming from folks who gladly beat the drum of free markets when it suits them... when the noise levels suits their own sleeping habits but not their neighbors'. Anyway, I think if there's an understatement here, it's to some extent that this area of vulnerability needs to be exploited more in public discourse worldwide. As a free market advocate myself, I am not against compromise or discourse or the difficulties of defining a real political system for a real world. But that isn't really what the present in-power advocates seem to be doing. They seem to be trying such a bald-faced give-away to their cronies, under guise of advocacy of principles in a time of claimed dire national circumstance, that many otherwise
RE: [biofuel] AC - DC
Actually, he is likely thinking the RMS calculation of which 120VAC RMS would be 120 x 1.414 = Peak voltage and Peak voltage x .707 to get RMS. You would be much closer using the 120 x .707 to get a well filtered DC voltage. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 8, 2003 4:33 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] AC - DC I am looking at WVO fueled diesel powered home/shop co-generation options. The thinking process came up a design idea where some 120VAC would be converted to ?VDC. Someone I respect in electronics stated that a simple AC - DC filtered rectification circuit results in the output VDC being 1.7 the input VAC. This does not seem right to me and while I could go buy the components to test the hypothesis, I would prefer someone either confirm or refute the x1.7 claim. I searched the internet and my books without success; so, I pose it here as defined: ac_dc.jpg If input is 120VAC, then will the output be = 120VDC, x1.7 = 204VDC, or = something else? Assume simple filtering by capacitors and inductors with reasonable component quality as this is more theoretical than absolute precision real-world design at this stage. Personally, I would think it would be 120VDC while if it were 204VDC it would be very nice for my application. Maybe someone knows a good web site to provide the answer to this simple electricity circuit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1354
FARMERS OPINION I have been a lurker for several years. I enjoy hearing the opinions and thoughts of all of you out there posting to this board. I commend you for sharing your ideas and technology with regards to any type of alternative fuel (biofuel or not). I also commend you for allowing discussion between posters of off-topic subjects. I think most of these off-topic conversations are indeed connected with our energy supply here in the USA and the world in general. The creation and use of any alternative energy does have a place on this board. With that said let me introduce myself and explain my personal farming operation so that you might better understand how my opinions have been formed over the years. I sincerely believe that my personal, financial, and farming experiences are probably a good example of some real farmers in the USA today. I live in the Big Horn Basin of Wyoming, am married, and have two sons ages 19 and 21. I have been farming since 1981. My father was a farmer as was his father. My great grandfather immigrated to the US around the turn of the century from the Volga Valley in Russia-Germany. He was a farmer as well. I raise sugar beets, malt barley, dry beans, and alfalfa seed. I farm about 500 acres of irrigated land. I (and the bank) own 350 acres and I rent 150 acres. For every dollar of assets I have 75 cents worth of debt - this ratio fluctuates from year to year by as much as 10%. My total debt on land and equipment is close to $500,000. On a typical year I will borrow at least $200,000 to operate my farm. At the end of the year I will pay back the $200,000 plus interest. I will also make an interest and principal payment on the land and equipment debt. Every spring when I plant a crop I make the following assumptions.. weather will be good irrigation water will be adequate interest rates will remain constant prices for fertilizer, seed, pesticides, labor, etc will not go up more that I have projected prices for the crops that I raise will not go down any lower than I have projected I will be able to work every day and not be laid up by some health problem or accident my estimated yields for each crop will be at least what I have projected and no lower I realize that other types of business make similar projections of expenses, income and productivity. The difference is that other businesses set their own price for their goods and services. They all work with similar costs and are rewarded if they can manage financial, labor, overhead, etc. expenses better than their competitor down the street or across the nation. If they do this they have a higher profit margin and will stay in business unlike some of their competitors. As you read this I am sure all of you think - so what, farms and ranches that produce food are no different. Well I am here to tell you there is a lot of difference. With the typical business in any community across the US there is a finite number of customers for the product or service that is offered for sale. If there are 100 gas stations and 50 clothing stores in small city and there are only customers for half this many gas stations and clothing stores then 50% of them will go out of business in a short time. If somehow some of them are able to lower their costs and consequently lower their prices to consumers then they will remain in business. At the same time this happens, all of their competitors have to lower their prices to stay competitive. Wall-Mart is a good example of this. Some small businesses can compete with Wall-Mart and some can't. What happened to the finite number of customers you ask. They are still there. As the price of goods and services go down to the consumer they will buy more clothes, gas, cars, toys, homes, etc. If there income has gone up they will even consume more of these items. The cheaper these goods and services become the more people will buy them. There is a limit to this scenario on the production side of these products. If the producers of these goods and services can no longer lower their costs and consequently their prices then the finite number of customers comes into play. At some point if prices remain the same the finite number of customers will limit the number or size of businesses that remain profitable. The average consumer will buy a third car, a tenth suit or dress, a larger home, take another vacation, etc. if given the financial means to do so but there is a point where this stops based on the finite number of consumers. The production of food from farms and ranches in the USA and the world does have its similarities to other goods and services but it also has some huge differences. Food is a basic necessity for life unlike the third car, larger home, etc. There is an infinite number of consumers for cheap food
[biofuel] Turk's turbo waste oil burner (new)
This is a new item just in. Easier than the babington. A great veggie oil burner, but will work with waste motor oil, etc. http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/turk/ -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
FW: Swastika is from Finland?Re: FW: [biofuel] Re: Re: Democracy--Nazi Germany was Democratic!???
-Original Message- From: Bronik Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:31 AM To: kirk Subject: Swastika is from Finland?Re: FW: [biofuel] Re: Re: Democracy--Nazi Germany was Democratic!??? Kirk, The German Swastika was a Finnish symbol that was adopted by the Nazis. I have attached the image of a Finnish airplane that shows the hakaristi or locked cross. Risti is the Finnish word for cross. You can see the Blue Lapp ornament under the wing of the Finnish fighter plane. Some people, like in this attachment below, seemed to think that the German planes were involved in the war on the side of the Russians. They likely mistook the Finnish planes with the hakaristi for German planes. Actually the German-Soviet non aggression pact divided up Poland, and the Germans said the Soviets could have Finland if they could take it. The Finns fought the Winter War alone against a 1.5 million Soviet military. Khruschev said the Finns killed 1 million of the Soviet Army during this war. 20,000 Finns were killed. Finns in the U.S. returned to Finland to fight. There were some Swedish volunteers also. The U.S, Britain, and the French offered to send troops to help Finland but it would have only been a token force and Finland did not want the fighting to escalate into a Scandinavian war. Hitler saw what happened and he then decided to invade Russia because he thought it would be easy. During the Winter War the Soviets invasion was led by Political Commissars rather than generals. There were no longer generals in the Soviet army. The generals had all been liquidated or sent to Siberia in the 1930's. After the Winter War the Soviets reorganized their military and brought back the remaining generals from Siberia, including General Vasiliev, who was a family friend that I remember from when we were living in Ireland. I was 4-5 years old and I took a hacksaw blade from his workshop. I still feel guilty about that. General Vasillieve was kidnapped by the Soviets when he visited West Berlin in the 1960's. We received one letter from him and he was never heard from again. Finland was directly responsible for Hitler's defeat as per this Soviet general's statement: Soviet Marshall S. S. Biriuzov: We had to retrain ourselves under enemy fire, paying a high price for the experience and knowledge without which we could not beat Hitler's army. Bronik kirk wrote: -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:01 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Democracy--Nazi Germany was Democratic!??? Thor, I wanted to take the winter war separately, see below. At 04:52 PM 2/4/2003 -0800, you wrote: snip Also, I can't imagine where you got the notion that Germany fought in the Winter War against Finland. The Soviet Union and Germany had a non-aggression pact during that time, in which the Soviets recognized German's right to all of Poland except the four Eastern provinces, and Germany Russia's right to the Baltic States and parts of Finland (if Stalin could take them). But that is a far cry from Germany participating in the war against Finland. If you have some evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. Both of my parents was in the Swedish voluntary forces in Finland and I guess that I have a tendency to belive what they told me. If you come by my place some time, I can show you a video made from my fathers 8 mm films during his service as physician in the Winter War. One sequence show a shot down Nazi fighter plane, I guess that this could serve well as proof. My mother was serving as nurse in Rovanemi during the Winter War. Hitler provided air support for Stalin during the winter war, as he did for Franco in the Spanish civil war. The Nazis participated on the Finnish side in the continuation war and the they fought against Stalin. Maybe you want some proof of that too. My father was there too, but my mother stayed home in Sweden because I was born in May 1941. snip Best, Thor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Turk's turbo waste oil burner (new)
Steve- It looks like what the miniature steam train guys call a pot burnerthey are great for burning pert-near any kinda earlnot to deride the design, but it looks nothing new to me. I've actually been waiting for someone to say they've tried a pot burner on this list. -Myles Twete, Portland -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Biodiesel - Egroups; Biofuel - Egroups; Alternate Power - Egroups; 3rdworldenergy; BFIC; biofuels-biz; bio-oil; BiomassGroup; EcoPages_Newswire; future9; homeenergysolutions; sustainablenrg; vegoil-diesel; wastewatts; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [biofuel] Turk's turbo waste oil burner (new) This is a new item just in. Easier than the babington. A great veggie oil burner, but will work with waste motor oil, etc. http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/turk/ -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
It was a British document that Mr. Powell gave exceedingly high praise to. Approximately 1/3 of the report was not only plagiarized (a fault attributed to British Unintelligence) but was also years old, portrayed as if it was this morning's griddle cakes. Todd - Original Message - From: harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 2:36 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest? What doesn't the article hold back on, the truth or BS. Do you really believe Secretary of State Colin Powell plagiarized material from a college student for his speech to the United Nations. He has the total U.S. Intelligence gathering agencies to use at his disposal, and he plagiarized from a college student. I believe the article is a little full of something. Harley -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 10:09 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest? A article that sums up recent events and doesn't hold back -- Fake terror alerts: by John Kaminski 2-8-3 http://www..timewedo.com/special/kaminski/fake.shtml How stupid do they think we are? Only hours after our much-praised Secretary of State is revealed to have been using material plagiarized from a college student to justify why we're going to kill thousands of people with bombs, our government issues a terror alert and expects us to believe it? And how stupid are we? We believe it. Everybody takes it seriously even though Colin Powell has been shown to have perpetrated a colossal lie before the entire world, sitting in front of the assembled multitude of rectitude at the United Nations, exposed as having tried to pass off a decade-old college post-graduate thesis as supposedly cutting-edge Department of Defense intelligence. Used before the most august leaders of the world, this is supposed to be the best we can do? For all that money in the defense budget? I mean, shouldn't we be embarrassed to be caught in such a childish lie? Could the U.S. government have reached a new low in their sluggish and unintelligent efforts to convince the world it should bomb everything that doesn't love our freedom? But it didn't matter. The American people have become such dullards that apparently nobody made the connection concerning lying about the reasons for bombing Iraq and lying about the terror alert. Certainly not the TV news robots. Stupidest of all? The terror alert was meant to cover up the Secretary of State's very own sophomoric faux pas, but the piggies needn't have bothered. The TV anchorpeople, who worry a lot more about their hair than they do the fate of the world, didn't even blink an eye, didn't even make the connection, that if Powell is fabricating evidence culled from the out-of-date research - the grad student's work was assessing conditions in Iraq more than a decade ago - then what possible evidence could this most humane member of the Bush Cabal of Death have been using to suddenly whip up a new terror alert - which served no greater purpose than to take the world's focus off his own obvious incompetence and insincerity. His own lies. There could be no clearer evidence that the United States is lying - not only about its own objectives but also about its own methods, its own performance - and, as I'm sure our genuine enemies would notice, and most dangerous of all - its actual capabilities. There may be no doubt that the U.S. could totally vaporize Baghdad, and no doubt that America's demonic weapons of mass destruction have turned large swaths of Third World countries into radioactive wastelands, but there are real doubts that this two-faced gang of armchair cutthroats have the ability, the will or the intent to defend our country. Just look at the investigation into 9/11, the biggest crime in American history, and let me know if you see one. Just look at Enron, the biggest robbery in American history, and let me know if you see the big perps being brought to justice. Lies. Everywhere you turn are lies, couched in trite buzzphrases, uttered by incompetent functionaries like Ashcroft, who couldn't even make a decent middle school debate team, not to mention Bush, who will never learn that sincere statements later learned to be false mean you can never reach people again. Or maybe you can. Maybe people don't really care if the world is destroyed, if their own sons return to the Fatherland contaminated by radioactivity and poison vaccines.. The insincerely enraptured media suckups, who have their own challenges to overcome, insist Bush is popular, but average people at the shopping center now only say that if they think the Homeland Security camera is on them. Lies. Like the new information about the Patriot missiles that the U.S. has sold to practically every country that wanted
Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
Oh...and one more thing. The Brits responded something akin to we have a lot to learn from this, or some such. Funny that. A madman ready to send 10's of thousands of human lives into carnage and these brainchildren use a years old primer as foundation to push for spilling today's blood. Friggin' ass-! Not a damned bit of respect for the people and the countries they profess to serve. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 2:36 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest? What doesn't the article hold back on, the truth or BS. Do you really believe Secretary of State Colin Powell plagiarized material from a college student for his speech to the United Nations. He has the total U.S. Intelligence gathering agencies to use at his disposal, and he plagiarized from a college student. I believe the article is a little full of something. Harley -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 10:09 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest? A article that sums up recent events and doesn't hold back -- Fake terror alerts: by John Kaminski 2-8-3 http://www..timewedo.com/special/kaminski/fake.shtml How stupid do they think we are? Only hours after our much-praised Secretary of State is revealed to have been using material plagiarized from a college student to justify why we're going to kill thousands of people with bombs, our government issues a terror alert and expects us to believe it? And how stupid are we? We believe it. Everybody takes it seriously even though Colin Powell has been shown to have perpetrated a colossal lie before the entire world, sitting in front of the assembled multitude of rectitude at the United Nations, exposed as having tried to pass off a decade-old college post-graduate thesis as supposedly cutting-edge Department of Defense intelligence. Used before the most august leaders of the world, this is supposed to be the best we can do? For all that money in the defense budget? I mean, shouldn't we be embarrassed to be caught in such a childish lie? Could the U.S. government have reached a new low in their sluggish and unintelligent efforts to convince the world it should bomb everything that doesn't love our freedom? But it didn't matter. The American people have become such dullards that apparently nobody made the connection concerning lying about the reasons for bombing Iraq and lying about the terror alert. Certainly not the TV news robots. Stupidest of all? The terror alert was meant to cover up the Secretary of State's very own sophomoric faux pas, but the piggies needn't have bothered. The TV anchorpeople, who worry a lot more about their hair than they do the fate of the world, didn't even blink an eye, didn't even make the connection, that if Powell is fabricating evidence culled from the out-of-date research - the grad student's work was assessing conditions in Iraq more than a decade ago - then what possible evidence could this most humane member of the Bush Cabal of Death have been using to suddenly whip up a new terror alert - which served no greater purpose than to take the world's focus off his own obvious incompetence and insincerity. His own lies. There could be no clearer evidence that the United States is lying - not only about its own objectives but also about its own methods, its own performance - and, as I'm sure our genuine enemies would notice, and most dangerous of all - its actual capabilities. There may be no doubt that the U.S. could totally vaporize Baghdad, and no doubt that America's demonic weapons of mass destruction have turned large swaths of Third World countries into radioactive wastelands, but there are real doubts that this two-faced gang of armchair cutthroats have the ability, the will or the intent to defend our country. Just look at the investigation into 9/11, the biggest crime in American history, and let me know if you see one. Just look at Enron, the biggest robbery in American history, and let me know if you see the big perps being brought to justice. Lies. Everywhere you turn are lies, couched in trite buzzphrases, uttered by incompetent functionaries like Ashcroft, who couldn't even make a decent middle school debate team, not to mention Bush, who will never learn that sincere statements later learned to be false mean you can never reach people again. Or maybe you can. Maybe people don't really care if the world is destroyed, if their own sons return to the Fatherland contaminated by radioactivity and poison vaccines.. The insincerely enraptured media suckups, who have their own challenges to overcome, insist Bush is popular, but average people at the shopping center now only say that if they think the Homeland
Chickens eating eggs - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1354
Hi Thor Keith, Interesting article and study, but also very unsettling. I had a hard time accepting this study that is premised on cannibalism, even though a bit of looking on the web revealed that Cornish chicks tend to be cannabilistic. I wonder why they didn't use rats or weasels, or something similar that eats eggs. thor I guess chickens are what she had. I'm not disturbed by it, though I'm against the cannibalistic practices so often found in agriculture now, especially the more insane forms of it, such as feeding dead sheep to cows - I was against that long before the dire consequences became apparent. That and other such practices are highly unnatural (and completely unnecessary), whereas this isn't unnatural, really. It happens, though it's usually seen as a problem, such as this message to a Homesteading list today: We also started in with chickens last October. We have 11 hens and one rooster. The varieties are mixed, Bantams, Rhode Island Reds and a breed that we don't know what they are. These ones are rather large and are predominantly black in colour. The chickens are what I have the questions about. Some of the hens, the large black ones are eating freshly laid eggs. Can anyone shed some light as to why they do and to how to possibly stop that particular practice? We have been feeding back egg shells to the chicken, but not before the egg shells have been thoroughly dried and sufficiently crushed. Anyway, chickens are carnivores, or rather omnivores, and there's nothing about their eating eggs that might distort the results of the study. In a way it's rather apt - most of the contents of an egg is intended as food for the embryo, and should thus be excellent food for chicks, while adding in the embryo itself is just, well, gravy I suppose. What's much more unsettling IMO is the implication that industrialized food is less nourishing than no food at all. There are plenty more such indications, all adding up to a damning picture, very unsettling indeed. Nothing new though, just ever worse and worse. See this, for instance: The Medical Testament Introduction http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/medtest/medtest_intro.html Medical Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/medtest/medtest.html Plenty more there, eg: The Wheel of Health by G.T. Wrench http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoHToC.html Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price http://journeytoforever.org/text_price.html This Famishing World by Alfred W. McCann http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Famish/famworldToC.html Etc etc. Quite old books yes (and never been superceded), but don't think progress has solved these problems, quite the opposite, sorry to say. Regards Keith - Keith wrote: Anyway, as a final comment perhaps, here's a study that found that the production from such industrialized farming operations, in this case eggs, were less nutritious than no eggs at all. http://www.rhealiving.com/gcrfarm/farm_and_poultry/Free_Range_Eggs_Study.htm Free-Range Eggs vs. Grocery Store Eggs in Chicks Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in your area worth messing with it? I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard wood. WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your pickup. The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, That is another thing that never crossed my mind. A few retired people own Log Splitters, but mostly just for recreational use. It's faster and better exersize to split it by hand. Or pay a neighbor kid $20 to split and pile it for you. and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I would still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw new ). Better check the prices on Chainsaws first. The thought never crossed my mind that you may not already own one. I was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water faster and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. Sorry. :-( It's strictly an Industrial process. Greg H. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
you can't put a cord of wood in a pickup truck. a cord of wood is 4 x 4 x 8 and weighs 2 tons. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in your area worth messing with it? I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard wood. WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your pickup. The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, That is another thing that never crossed my mind. A few retired people own Log Splitters, but mostly just for recreational use. It's faster and better exersize to split it by hand. Or pay a neighbor kid $20 to split and pile it for you. and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I would still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw new ). Better check the prices on Chainsaws first. The thought never crossed my mind that you may not already own one. I was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water faster and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. Sorry. :-( It's strictly an Industrial process. Greg H. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] AC - DC
.707 is the reciprocal of 1.414 The RMS value is the DC heating value. Well filtered is proportional to capacitance in the filter. He said: Someone I respect in electronics stated that a simple AC - DC filtered rectification circuit results in the output VDC being 1.7 the input VAC. If this person said 1.414 minus the diode drop it would be correct. This would be for a meter or instrumentation load. A DC meter could be used to measure the AC voltage. It is actually measuring the peak and is insensitive to waveshape. If Neil voiced what he is trying to do with this peak detector it would be easier to give commentary. Kirk -Original Message- From: John Mullan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:00 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] AC - DC Actually, he is likely thinking the RMS calculation of which 120VAC RMS would be 120 x 1.414 = Peak voltage and Peak voltage x .707 to get RMS. You would be much closer using the 120 x .707 to get a well filtered DC voltage. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 8, 2003 4:33 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] AC - DC I am looking at WVO fueled diesel powered home/shop co-generation options. The thinking process came up a design idea where some 120VAC would be converted to ?VDC. Someone I respect in electronics stated that a simple AC - DC filtered rectification circuit results in the output VDC being 1.7 the input VAC. This does not seem right to me and while I could go buy the components to test the hypothesis, I would prefer someone either confirm or refute the x1.7 claim. I searched the internet and my books without success; so, I pose it here as defined: ac_dc.jpg If input is 120VAC, then will the output be = 120VDC, x1.7 = 204VDC, or = something else? Assume simple filtering by capacitors and inductors with reasonable component quality as this is more theoretical than absolute precision real-world design at this stage. Personally, I would think it would be 120VDC while if it were 204VDC it would be very nice for my application. Maybe someone knows a good web site to provide the answer to this simple electricity circuit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
What doesn't the article hold back on, the truth or BS. Do you really believe Secretary of State Colin Powell plagiarized material from a college student for his speech to the United Nations. He has the total U.S. Intelligence gathering agencies to use at his disposal, and he plagiarized from a college student. I believe the article is a little full of something. Harley Yes, Harley, I suppose anything that's outside the view of a keyhole vision can be dubbed BS, that makes everything so easy and comfortable. Buty really, couldn't you even take the trouble to get your denial right? It doesn't say Powell plagiarized it, he quoted from Mr Blair's document, and *that* was plagiarized. Doesn't matter, it's all BS anyway, eh? Apart from that little quibble, regarding the alleged input of the U.S. Intelligence gathering agencies, you seem to have missed this bit somehow that Hoagy posted as well: Split at C.I.A. and F.B.I. on Iraqi Ties to Al Qaeda New York Times, February 2, 2003 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/international/middleeast/02INTE.html This is not at all the only such story - here's another current one: MI6 and CIA: the new enemy within The Independent, London 09 February 2003 -- Tony Blair and George Bush are encountering an unexpected obstacle in their campaign for war against Iraq - their own intelligence agencies. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=376732 And I suppose most of the world's press is also a little full of something, like the following small current sampling: First casualties in the propaganda firefight All's fair in the war for hearts and minds: frustrated by the failure of the UN weapons inspectors in Iraq to find the 'smoking gun', Downing Street resorted to plagiarising a 12-year-old US doctoral thesis - The Observer, London, Sunday February 9, 2003 http://www.observer.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,891940,00.html The dossier that shamed Britain Deception can only corrode public trust The Observer, Sunday February 9, 2003 http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,892066,00.html Blair under fire for plagiarised dossier LONDON (Reuters) February 07 2003 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030207/80/dsq4h.html Real Authors Of Iraq Dossier Blast Blair LA Saturday February 08, 2003 Daily Mirror http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12620001method =fullsiteid=50143 No 10 under attack over 'ramping' of Iraq dossier The Sunday Times, Sunday February 9 2003 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-571370,00.html Iraq dossier assembled by junior aides The Times, February 08, 2003 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-570248,00.html UK's Iraq dossier a thesis lift - The Age, Australia - Agence Francaise Presse Saturday 8 February 2003 http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/08/1044579984168.html Downing St dossier plagiarised Iraq 6 February 2003 The government's carefully co-ordinated propaganda offensive has taken an embarrassing hit after Downing Street was accused of plagiarism. * Read sample of plagiarised text http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html Even No. 10 Downing Street (know where that is?) is saying so: Downing Street admission - Channel 4 News It took them nearly 24 hours, but Downing Street was eventually forced to admit it made a mistake. A spokesman confessed that it should have credited the authors of the articles it used in the document, particularly Ibrahim Al Marashi - he's the graduate student whose thesis was copied -- grammatical errors and all. http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html#2 UK admits copying student's thesis for Iraq dossier The Indian Express - Asian News International London, February 9: In what amounted to an official acknowledgement of plagiarism, the British government has admitted that a dossier against Saddam Hussein was partly copied from a student's PhD thesis and cobbled together by Alastair Campbell's propaganda machine. http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=18130 But, Harley, I'm sure you must be right and they're all talking BS. Funny how NONE of those sources include any member of the mainstream US press, now isn't it? That's been widely commented on, especially in the US - days and days go by but this major world story that some say could topple the government of the US's only supporter in it's war on Iraq remains unreported in the US, and only in the US. It's pointed out that they brought you the news of the Space Shuttle within seconds, but not this? Well, maybe they suffer from keyhole vision and thinks it's all BS. See also: Mr Blair asks us to trust him. We cannot do so The Independent , 09 February 2003 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=376794 The Paxman dossier: Blair's case for war In his televised interview with Jeremy Paxman last week, the Prime Minister faced a largely hostile audience and a sceptical country and, 'in effect'
Re: [biofuel] More reason for Unrest?
Opps, should of checked for incoming. Thanks Keith! Looks like Harley I have allot more to read. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
