[biofuels-biz] short of time right now....
i would love to answer your great posting at length, keith, but am a bit short of time right now. i'm sure the list will understand. but i did want to say how much i admire your use of adjectives. if i could build my plants as well as you craft your postings, i would surely be nominated to the engineering hall of fame, what ? all the best. cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] the empire's gone Dick Carlstein wrote:Well, the first thing he wrote is the extraordinary subject-line. I wonder if you'd care to explain it, Dick? What is its relevance to the discussion please?in answer to:From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]goat industriesTo: mailto:biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.combiofuels-biz@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:10 PMSubject: Re: [biofuels-biz] wvowvo already has a market in most parts of the world. adding demand for biodiesel production will soon erode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today.What is the WVO market? In the UK this market is in decline because of stricter aniamal feeds regulation.uk = 50 million.rest of the world = 5'950 million.that's most parts of the world.Are you claiming that there's a market in most parts of the world for WVO such as that (a) accounts for such a high percentage of the WVO produced that the rest is insignificant, whatever that might mean or not mean, and (b) this market is stable and no significant (?) changes are foreseeable? If so, please see my other message of today, "Re: [biofuels-biz] wvo".I haven't previously found much credibility in your claims to speak for the rest of the world, I should add.Are you also claiming that 50 million people don't count?my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reactionthe plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure). Is this because it's not made of stainless steel components?no, it is so because it was designed this way. we are niche market oriented. we made a couple with aisi 304 ss (previously known as 18/8), but then realised it wasn't necessary at all. we use two component food grade epoxy, electrostatically deposited.Come one Dick, you can't have it both ways - are you speaking for the world at large or are you niche market oriented?palm and coco oils are presently selling for u$s 200 a ton, refined. and the world vvo glut continues, and is projected to remain so for at least five more years. This is great if you live in Malaysia or can buy in 1000's of tonnes.any palm oil importer in the uk will be happy to sell you palm oil. you'll have to contact them first, they don't know you want some.Why would he want to do that, when there's so much WVO, including palm oil-based WVO, available there for the taking and he knows how to process it?snipusing heavily used wvo, in my opinion, is one way NOT to make biodiesel. This is because of the area you live/work in .. not relevent to everybody on the list, particularly us in the UK.i did post '...in my opinion...'; you can't make everybody happy !!Yes you did say "in my opinion", but you also said: "it lights the room aok, but there are better bulbs available", and generally dubbed people using it as (a) dumb and (b) blind. And you're still doing that.i am a third world plant manufacturer, you know, where your colonies used to be, back in the times of the empire.Now what is all this about, and why is it relevant? Britain colonised the Argentine? When was that? How come I didn't hear about it? I didn't think Britain colonised anywhere in South America other than British Guiana, Spain did all the colonising there, and Portugal to a lesser extent. Oh yes, and the Falklands, I forgot about the Falklands. But maybe you didn't, eh?oil is plentiful in this third world of ours, so it would seem logical to me to make biodiesel from it, instead of selling it to the first world so that they can fry their chips in it.from your viewpoint i can understand that making biodiesel from mad cows, terminated foot and mouth diseased pigs,Terminated foot and mouth diseased pigs? Really? Pigs? Are you sure?and fish and chips wvo, is possibly an enticing option. to us, poor vegetable oil glutted folks, it's not.Yeah, just more sneering, very ugly. He wasn't being patronising, why are you? Better to eat chips than to have them on your shoulder.there are precious few fish and chip shops in africa, you see.Ah, I see, you're speaking again for the Third World at large, not just your little corner of it. I don't think you ought to do that Dick. You demonstrate a very Euro-centric view of Third World issues, not at all those of the people you claim to represent. Not uncommon, but extremely harmful when applied.nice format to your postin
[biofuels-biz] wish i had more time...
if i did, keith, i would attempt to answeryourquestions. in lieu of this, let me just say that i appreciate your comments tremendously, and will certainly factor them into my life-focus from now on. your input made my day. thank you. all the best. cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] wvo Dick Carlstein wrote:in answer to:From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]goat industriesTo: mailto:biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.combiofuels-biz@yahoogroups.comSent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:15 AMSubject: Re: [biofuels-biz] fuzzy standards The reason why Dick sneers at WVO is, it seems, because he hasn't (likeourselves) used the right recipe for using heavily used WVO. Is this true?no, paddy, not at all. the reason i shy away from heavily used wvo, is that a) it's a very variable feedstock, quality wise, b) it is expensive (in most parts of the world), for what you get (in argentina it goes for u$s 0.20 a litre, in spain for 0.21), c) it is a rigid supply scenario feedstock, and d) it is more expensive, complicated, and time consuming to transesterify satisfactorily.spain's wvo, for example, is superb for biodiesel. the fast food us wvo, is not.i find that dangling the lure of 'free' feedstock will eventually turn upon itself, as small operators have to confront the inherent variability of wvo.Small operators are well set up to confront the inherent variability of WVO, and many of them even manage to find a reliable source of supply, free, that gives them a consistent-quality feedstock. The inherent variability isn't invariably inherent.wvo already has a market in most parts of the world. adding demand for biodiesel production will soon erode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today.finally, there's just so much wvo available. increased demand is not going to increase production. people will not eat more chips because the waste oil they generate is going to be used to make biodiesel.This is very spurious reasoning, as such. First, nowhere is WVO recycled thoroughly. Everywhere that I've looked into it, and others have looked into it, there are large amounts not accounted for. Yes, it has a market, no, the market does not account for the full supply, and in many cases not even for most of the supply.Second, the WVO market is anything but stable as you say it is: "there's just so much wvo available". Several times you sneered at the debate over Mad Cow Disease, for example, oblivious to the effect that was having on the WVO market in many parts of the world. A current message on the Biofuels list describes renderers in the US preparing to go out of business because the market for their products has vanished due to BSE concerns. This is not just tallow, it includes much ordinary WVO. Several institutes have devoted research time and resources to developing transesterification techniques for high FFA feedstock to divert tallow supplies to biodiesel. In general, prices of WVO have dropped over the last year or more in many parts of the world, sometimes by so much that collectors too are going out of business, and less is thus being collected.i am deeply grateful to my teachers at eng'g school, who hammered two basic engineering concepts into me: 'kiss', and 'if it works don't fix it'. in that spirit i soon came to realise that cheap can sometimes be very expensive, and thus focused on using reliable, predictable, readily available, feedstocks as the basis for my plant design.my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reaction. i don't even recommend the base/base reaction because it is time consuming, and cuts back plant capacity.the plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure).i am much more interested in empowering people in africa so they have access to fuel via their farming activities, that i am in solving the us mcdonald quandary.there are so many feedstocks available in the market, many of them not even edible (such as castor oil or jatropha), that to adopt consumer society habits as the basis for a universal undertaking such as 'making' energy, is imho, a dead end street.Where is the either/or here, that excludes all the more sensible both/and options?where are you going to get wvo in africa. or india. or china. or latin america in general ?Yes, well, all very laudable, though I've found your attitude to Third World rural development issues questionable, to say the least - you certainly don't understand peasant economies, and there's a long, long record of just such misunderstandings bringing more problems than solutions in their wake.That aside, how does it follow that because there's no WVO in Africa, India, China and Latin America, that makes WVO a non-viable feedstock where it is availab
RE: [biofuels-biz] market for WVO
animal feed, soap, glycerine, heating fuel are the most common. - Original Message - From: goat industries To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] market for WVO Nobody's yet come up with an answer to my question 'what is the market forWVO?'. Am I to assume that it is only used in animal feed?I think it is important to get our facts as acurate as possible and be awareof market pressures on all sides. Also. I personnaly never take anyindividual's word verbatim and reserve the right to believe what is told tome. There's always going to be a lot of bullshit in a group like this just take it with a pinch of salt, or even a glass of mead. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--Small business owners...Tell us what you think!http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM-~-Biofuels at Journey to Foreverhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuel at WebConXhttp://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htmTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [biofuels-biz] Re: short of time right now....
superb !! a true master !! - Original Message - From: Wooly . To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:55 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: short of time right now Hey look!! No 'mead' message! D'you like my snips, Dick?? I even snipped the extra [biofuels-biz] out of the subject line.i would love to answer your great posting at length, keith, but am a bit short of time right now. i'm sure the list will understand.but i did want to say how much i admire your use of adjectives. if i could build my plants as well as you craft your postings, i would surely be nominated to the engineering hall of fame, what ?all the best. cheers, dick._Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--Small business owners...Tell us what you think!http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM-~-Biofuels at Journey to Foreverhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuel at WebConXhttp://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htmTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [biofuels-biz] wish i had more time...
except for austia's, there is no mandatory government standard for biodiesel in the world today. all the standardsmentioned, din, astm, cen, etc, are proposed standards. proposed standardsalso happen todiffer substantially from each other, as pointed out in detail in a past posting of mine. biodiesel has been around commercially for 20 years +, and the situation has always been the same. austria established the first and only binding standard in '91. the world has in effect been using, and is using, biodiesel without mandatory government standards. ina recent posting by de winne, hepredicts that there will be no mandatory european community standard for biodiesel until at least october 2003. - Original Message - From: Wooly . To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] wish i had more time... Hi KeithIn fairness (or due to my fuzzy memory) I have to ask, did Dick actually say this (my inverted commas)?Such ideas, if you can call them that,as that there's "no need for standards"I thought he just didn't like the ones around now, and wanted to make up his own.Steve_Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--Small business owners...Tell us what you think!http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM-~-Biofuels at Journey to Foreverhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuel at WebConXhttp://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htmTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [biofuel] Re: making filters
pray dale, any particular specs on the felt filter bag ? price range ? down to how many microns will it filter ? operating pressure ? thru flow ? sorry for the barrage of questions, just trying to get the broad picture. tks. cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 7:19 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: making filters Wow! Someone finally noticed my filters! I am as proud of the filters as I am the rest of the processor; maybe more so. The filters are made from 4 PVC (the outer housing) and 3 PVC (which extends into the 4 PVC, through a rubber coupling) The felt filter bag is pulled over the 3 pipe and clamped with a hose clamp. The adapters at the ends of the filters will depend upon what ultimate pipe size you plan to use for hooking into everything else. If this description doesn't make sense, I'll take them apart, take a few pictures, and put them on the home page. I probably need to change the bags anyway. Dale --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dennis Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Group: I was admiring Dale Scroggins pvc filters and wondering how to make some like them. I didn't see an email address for his setup so I'm sending my question abroad. Thanks for any info. [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: making filters
excellent !! thanks dale. must try this out, looks like a winner. dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 10:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: making filters Lessee, bags... I bought the felt at Walmart and sewed them up. Maybe 10 cents each. If you don't sew, then maybe buy some knit tubing from Home Depot. They sell it in rolls in the plumbing section, for stretching over septic field lines. A $15 roll should last several generations. No idea about the microns. I mostly filter out french fries, fish parts, etc. But selection of fabric would determine the particle size. The felt from Walmart filters out everything visible, and leaves the oil pretty and clear. An additional outer bag or two of finer weave would probably pick up a few more particles, though. I pull the oil through the filter using vacuum. So the maximum pressure I use is about 15 psi. I think all the PVC components are rated about 125 psi at room temperature. Less at higher temps. Haven't measured the flow. I use a pair in parallel, just in case one clogs. The pair has no trouble filtering 10 gpm of room temperature peanut oil. Dale --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: pray dale, any particular specs on the felt filter bag ? price range ? down to how many microns will it filter ? operating pressure ? thru flow ? sorry for the barrage of questions, just trying to get the broad picture. tks. cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] neat bio in older vehicles
cordain, based on my experience with older diesel vehicles, i suggest you start out with b10, and progress by 10 % steps from there, doing a double fuel filter change between each step. older diesel vehicles usually have incredible amounts of living and dead matter in their fuel systems.bio, beinga very powerful cleanser, will dissolve this, and mix it into the fuel stream. a gradual change-over is the best insurance you can buy. as to rubber, even the older vehicles have silicon seals in the injection pump, and if they don't (museum type vehicles !!!), only a certified shop should change them, and re-calibrate the pump after it does. also suggest you tidy-up and re-calibrateinjectorswhen you do the initial switch, so you start out with clean basics. rubber fuel lines per se are usually short in commercial diesels, most of the plumbing being hard line. a foot of 5/16 id viton tubing should not set you back more than a buck or so if bought by the roll. fill lines, when present, will have to be assessed on a case by case basis. most commercial diesel vehicles usedirect filling of the tank, with no in-betweensoft tubing. diesel cars are anotherballgame. more softlines there,both supply, return, and fill. good to hear of your progress. cheers, dick. snip your way into everyone's heart !!! this is a public service message. From: doctor who To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:18 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Bio-D, old diesels and rubber lots o' rubber Ok so as I am working out the praticality issues w/distribution and resale I keep running into this problem. Rubber it's cheap easy and as far as I know found in most diesels that are in this country (US)Cordain,Dulles, VA Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] quality testing
in answer to camillo's: From: Camillo Holecek To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:48 PM Subject: AW: [biofuels-biz] wvo As it was rather elaborate, I did take the liberty to snip a bit... snipping is being considerate to others. thanks for practising it !!! Thanks for explaining you process.So far we learned it is batch, one stage only. it's not really 'my' process camillo. i just make the plants that allow people to process vegetable oil a certain way. what i do provide is means of maximising process efficiency, by providing temp/pressure capability in the main reactor, for example. there's nothing proprietary about the process, or the plant. if you had the plans and the parts vendors, you could build one yourself. it's a two vessel, self contained plant, mounted on skids. it has temperature, pressure, and vacuum capabilities. batch size is ~ 400 litres of biodiesel, and ~ 50 litres of glycerol, per batch. batch time averages 10 hours, all in. alky recoup circuits are built in. all fluid transfers are pressure activated, the plant has no pumps except for the vacuum pump, and the air compressor. filters are mounted separately (delivered with 5 micron capability). full parts and labour one year guarantee. all controls are graphic interface, to allow universal use by untrained operators. you can fit 22 of them into a40' container. it can do two stages if necessary, but production capacity logically drops. And you are outspoken against quality testing. very much the contrary, camillo !!! i am a great believer in tqc = total quality control. this philosophy is incorporated into the plant's design. but remember, quality is best built in before the fact, than tested after the fact. that's why i insist on my garbage in - garbage out statement. i think feedstocks should be tested before they're used. i also believe that there is a market for a plant such as mine, capable of fulfillingawell defined mission statement. my plant is not of a universal nature, it cannot do an acid/base reaction, or wash, or even pre-process feedstock. it is only designed to processfeedstock meeting certain quality standards. it is a very reliable plant. full leading edge technology is employed. repeatability to me is paramount. an acceptable feedstock when processed by my plant, must deliver acceptable biodiesel. period. else the plant design is flawed.(which unfortunately is a very common occurrence, requiring extensive and costly post-process quality controls) Well, thanks, now me and everybody familiar with the properties of the actual transesterification reaction know what they need to know. sorry, not clear to me whatyou'resaying ?? As I am really couriouse, please give us an idea on the capacity and the price range of your plants. [hope others on the list dont mind?] capacity i've mentioned.in real world terms, it boils down to between100 k litre/yr and750 k litre/yr capacity, accordingto number of shifts, additional reactors, etc. oneoperator working a split shift can produce~ 200 k litres/yr.30 kWh per batch. prices start at u$s9'100 for astark naked plant, and go on up to u$s 30'000 for a full bells and whistles750 k litres/yr setup. these prices are ex-works. leadtimes are presently90 days, and climbing. this is biz list, so i suppose it's ok to doa bit of marketing, what? (:-D) And what do you think about product liability? I mean for you as a technology provider? Hope everything will allways turn out well for you in this respect. we fully back up our plants. we cannot do the same for what they put out, it would be like having volkswagen guarantee that it's cars will be driven properly. the plants have all the eco and work site safety features required, and then some. it's basically a big blender.what you actually blend is up to you. we do not provide 'technology'. we provide plants. as i said before, none of this is proprietary. just common sense engineering, market awareness, conscientious fabrication, and the ability to think small. hope this helps, camillo. my dream is to buildthousands of these plants, so that people need no longer be slaves to energy cartels. worry not; have some mead instead!!! cheers,dick. thanks for sniping, camillo. wish more people would do the same... this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] stong beliefs
keith, you're no liar !!! you'rejustvehement !!! like your's truly. as to your argentine correspondents, i can only say that all coins have two sides, and proper empathising requires we see both of them. all enquiries we've had so far in argentinaforour plants have been price oriented. i have never come across a potential client interested in other benefits than that of undercuttinggasoil's pump price. there's precious little eco awareness in argentina. the majority of ic vehicles leave the factory without catalyser, for example. so what your argentine mates tell you is their side of the coin. all i can show you is my side. but it would be illuminating to know what their stand is on these issues. not to 'unmask' competition (we are swamped with orders, and having to lengthen delivery times), but to hear the other bell. aside: have you ever tried good, straight, mead ? reason i promote it is 'cause i make mead at the uruguay farm, where i keep bees. 30 proof !!! honey, well water, and yeast. plus a bit of know how, and my mead plant (:-D) all the best. have some sake instead !! cheers, dick. snipping brings on that warm feeling of a job well done. this is a public service message. Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] diddly lab language... ...Other than this - "pay-up time" eh? :-) You want me to post private letters, from people who might well be your competitors, to a public forum? Or instruct them to join the forum so they can have a fruitless argument with you? Just so you can prove you're the only one in step? You've failed to demonstrate that they're wrong. I said all I intend to say of what they've been telling me. Accept it or call me a liar, whichever pleases you. If you decide to call me a liar, I suggest that to support your claim you first find other known instances where I've lied in such a manner. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] the empire's gone....
in answer to: From: goat industries To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] wvo wvo already has a market in most parts of the world.adding demand for biodiesel production will soonerode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today. What is the WVO market? In the UK this market is in decline because of stricter aniamal feeds regulation. uk = 50 million. rest of the world = 5'950 million. that's most parts of the world. my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reaction the plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure). Is this because it's not made of stainless steel components? no, it is so because it was designed this way. we are niche market oriented. we made a couple with aisi 304 ss (previously known as 18/8), but then realised it wasn't necessary at all. we use two component food grade epoxy, electrostatically deposited. palm and coco oils are presently selling for u$s 200 a ton, refined. and the world vvo glut continues, and is projected to remain so for at least five more years. This is great if you live in Malaysia or can buy in 1000's of tonnes. any palm oil importer in the uk will be happy to sell you palm oil. you'll have to contact them first, they don't know you want some. as edison said after doing10'000 experimentsbefore he finally made a working bulb: 'i did not fail 10'000 times trying to make an electric bulb. actually, i discovered10'000 ways how NOT to make one' How come those guys in Florida are using WVO? Bet they made a few gallons of MUD (Messed Up Diesel) in the process of getting it right! which guys ? whereabouts in florida ? what sort of volume/yr are we talking about here ? what process are they using ? what cetane index (uk = 50 us = 40) ? additional input from you would be welcome to clear these points. thanks for the time. using heavily used wvo, in my opinion, is one way NOT to make biodiesel. This is because of the area you live/work in .. not relevent to everybody on the list, particularly us in the UK. i did post '...in my opinion...'; you can't make everybody happy !! i am a third world plant manufacturer,you know, where your colonies used tobe, back in the times of the empire. oil is plentiful in this third world of ours, so it would seem logical to me to makebiodiesel from it, instead of selling it to the first world so that they can fry their chips in it. from your viewpoint i can understand that makingbiodiesel from mad cows,terminated foot and mouth diseased pigs, and fish and chips wvo, is possibly an enticing option. to us, poor vegetable oil gluttedfolks, it's not. there are precious few fish and chip shopsin africa, you see. nice format to your posting !! have some mead, the drink of the gods !!! cheers, dick. to snip, or not to snip should be no question. this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] ocean air environmental
these fellas are trying to sell plants. what they're saying is their plant can process anything you wish to feed it. what they don't say is at what cost per litre, or what the $ per installed capacity is. people making these'universal' plants tend to omit such information. they just say what feedstocks it can tranesterify, how many litres a year it can produce, and how many million dollars you need to get going. neat mead is neat. cheers, dick. snip= friendly. this is a public service message. From: goat industries To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] the empire's gone How come those guys in Florida are using WVO? Bet they made a few gallons of MUD (Messed Up Diesel) in the process of getting it right! which guys ? whereabouts in florida ? what sort of volume/yr are we talking about here ? what process are they using ? what cetane index (uk = 50 us = 40) ? "OceanAir Environmental owns and operates a biodiesel (methyl ester)production facility in Lakeland, Florida, that was designed primarily forprocessing used cooking oils. Technology advances, compared to thatnormally used for processing of low fatty acid seed oils, enable us toprocess very high fatty acid grease and oils that are not considered typicalbiodiesel feedstocks. To date we have processed feedstocks such as usedcooking oils; yellow greases; tallow; lard; and waste animal greasecontaining in excess of 30% free fatty acid (FFA). In addition, we haveprocessed other high fatty acid streams (in excess of 40% FFA) frominternally generated intermediates." Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] flash point
in answer to: From: Camillo Holecek To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:34 PM Subject: AW: [biofuels-biz] diddly lab language... camillo does not mention cetane once. and when you buy gas, which is something everybody can understand, octane is clearly shown at the pump. the writing on the wall is that the same will happen with diesel. astm/nbb calls for 40, and the europeans want 50. we have that problem here in south america. brazil has lower cetane standards than argentina, so every time you cross the border to brazil in a diesel car, out comes the cetane enhancers. I had nor reason tho mention cetane numbers. In Europe, VW requires 48 cetane for their fleet in fossil diesel, OR biodiesel according to DIN standard. That are the warranty conditions. Up to now. and dinis49, right ? yet astm/nbb is 40. so what happens if vw wants to sell a vehicle in the us ? will all vw diesel vehicles or engines sold in the us be void of warranty if used with us standards biodiesel, or blends of same ? What you should be more aware of is flash point. If that comes down because you skip washing and polishing of your bd, first you can get nailing in the engine. And much worst, you may come into the reach of the dangerous goods handling standards with a flash point under 100 centigrade. (I dont know details of US or Argentinian road transport savety regulations). And that makes permits, handling and transport a hell more comlicated and expensive. At least in Europe. din flashpoint is actually ten percent higher, isn't it ? 110 celsius to be exact. flash pointdoesn't worry me in excess, for two reasons: 1) it's probably one of the easiest standards to test (astm d 93 method), with no equipment required besides a hot plate and a thermometer. (i once did it using a butane cigarette lighter as a flame source !!!). 2) we draw excess alky by going from + 2 bar to vacuum, without lowering temp. all alky is drawn off in under fifteen minutes. we can also use agitation besides, if need be. And the other two critical parameters IMHO are glycerides and potassium. Left over glycerine leads to nailing again, spoils cetane results, and may also spoil the green benefits by adding traces of pretty poisenous compounds formed during incomplete combustion (as happens in all present engines) to exaust gases. our experience so far is that by screening feedstock, and using pressure + temperature + an adequate amount of alky + naoh according to titration and mini batch tests, we are well within allowed din glycerine contents. we do not recommend the use of koh (it actually invalidates our warranty), so that would not pose a problem. Any other suggestions for our list of essential BD quality parameters? iwould assume that it really depends on the end use of the biodiesel. if it's a farmer's coop making it for self-use, standards can be slack. if sale to the public at large is involved, standards carry more weight (too many lawyers around looking wanting to litigate...) we sell our plant to end users. as long as the engine sounds and 'feels'right to them, and oil analysis doesn't show unusual wear, they're happy.with the money they save theycan afford tobe hazyregarding standards. plants meant for commercial production of biodiesel are another ballgame, i suppose. i wouldn't want toget involved in that at all, camillo, so relax, and have some mead !!! cheers, dick. snipping= class. this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] diddly lab language...
think some of this needs answering: From: Keith Addison To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] big oil keith, i think you miss my point.On the contrary Dick, I think you miss mine. Not the first time we've exchanged that set of words. and i hope it wont be the last !! dialectically speaking, of course !! If Volkswagen does thatthey'll be using Camillo's figures, which can't be so easily knocked, they're genuine. That needs fixing. Your way won't fix it. if vw acts as camillo claims, they can kiss the usa market goodbye. just mention cetane, and that's the end of the story. camillo does not mention cetane once. and when you buy gas, which is something everybody can understand, octane is clearly shown at the pump. the writing on the wall is that the same will happen with diesel. astm/nbb calls for 40, and the europeans want 50. we have that problem here in south america. brazil has lower cetane standards than argentina, so every time you cross the border to brazil in a diesel car, out comes the cetane enhancers. that's why, as i said before, mercedes is playing possum on this 'non-issue'. that's why i cited the argentine example. two years ago nobody here had heard of biodiesel. today everyone wants in.That's not confined to the Argentine. Each case is special of course, but the fact is that biodiesel has taken off worldwide in the last two years.but the reasons are 100 % economic.That's not true. Argentines who write to me tell me otherwise.tell is one thing. do is another. there is only one commercial operation in argentina making and marketing biodiesel. it belongs to coco menenchkian, who operates out of pilar, close to buenos aires. he transesterifies in a standard reactor, uses virgin oil, meth, and naoh, and does NOT wash, or recoupalky (thing actually reeks of alky). he sells biodiesel at fifty cents a litre or so, vs sixty or so that fossil costs. there are two more operations in argentina to date, both using our plants, but none of them sell the stuff, they use it. we are about to deliver our third plant, and again it will go to an end user. we've had dozens of people contact us regarding plants. they all want to know what the finished biodiesel will cost them. not a single inquiry has mentioned standards, or emissions, or lubricity, or power loss, or nox. just $$$. but i suppose that if you asked greenpeace and such, they would mention eco, not lolly. yet these are not the people making or using biodiesel here in argentina. knudsen in tres arroyosmakes the stuff at home. he's been trying for a year now to floata gvt. sponsored multi million dollar project, but no luck so far. first thing the governor of buenos aires province did when shown the project was to have a study made by a local consulting firmto determine what the price would be, using virgin oil. (u$s 0.36 was what they came up with). no emission study was ordered. just $$$ as i said before. i would welcome a posting on thismatter by the 'argentines' who write to you. pay-up time, keith so i propose we stop posturing regarding standards, some of which, like cetane, cannot be readily measured without a lab ic engine.Why are you using a loaded word like "posturing"?why is it loaded ? please explain keith, after all english is an acquired language for me. to me posturing is assuming an attitude for the sake of an audience. should i start using one line sentences to promote gc, and/or reject nir testing, and in support of said one liners would address marginal issues, evade main issues, and support my stand on the basis of corporate cubicle hearsay, methinks i would be posturing. bluffing might be a good synonym. a bit like an adult talking 'down' religion to a bunch of kindergaden kids. because it's the layman, after all, that's going to make this work, or not.That's also not true. It requires a broad strategy covering everything from the local tractor driver to George W. Bush - who's just-approved energy plan, incidentally, includes a 100 million gallon reserve of biodiesel, which certainly wouldn't have happened two years ago. two years ago congress was also not discussing opening up the arctic to oil exploration/pumping which will do a hell of a lot more harm than the bio reserve will do good. 100 million gallons are the equivalent of one third of one percent of fossil use in usa. or fifty percent of total installed biodiesel capacity in the usa. take your pick. in terms of the usa, it'sfly shit. in the usa, biodiesel will only come of age when b20 is enforced in lieu of having to switch engines, or low bio content is used to compensate low sulphur diesel.when this happens, it will be happening for $$$ reasons. cheaper to use b20 than to re-engine, and again cheaper to use bio than other available lubricity enhancers. its happening on its own, keith, not because of a
[biofuels-biz] wvo
in answer to: From: goat industries To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] fuzzy standards The reason why Dick sneers at WVO is, it seems, because he hasn't (likeourselves) used the right recipe for using heavily used WVO. Is this true? no, paddy, not at all. the reason i shy away from heavily used wvo, is that a) it's a very variable feedstock, quality wise, b) it is expensive (in most parts of the world), for what you get (in argentina it goes for u$s 0.20 a litre, in spain for 0.21),c) it is a rigid supply scenario feedstock, and d) it is more expensive, complicated, and time consuming to transesterify satisfactorily. spain's wvo, for example, is superb for biodiesel. the fast food us wvo, is not. i find that dangling the lure of 'free' feedstock will eventually turnupon itself, as smalloperators have to confront the inherent variability of wvo. wvo already has a market in most parts of the world.adding demand for biodiesel production will soonerode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today. finally, there's just so much wvo available. increased demand is not going to increase production. people will not eat more chips because the waste oil they generate is going to be used to make biodiesel. i am deeply grateful to my teachers at eng'g school, who hammered two basic engineering concepts into me: 'kiss', and 'if it works don't fix it'. in that spirit i soon came to realise that cheap can sometimes be very expensive, and thus focused on using reliable, predictable, readily available, feedstocks as the basis for my plant design. my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reaction. i don't even recommend the base/base reaction because it is timeconsuming, and cuts back plant capacity. the plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure). i am much more interested in empoweringpeople in africa so they have access to fuel via their farming activities, that i am in solving the us mcdonald quandary. there are so many feedstocks available in the market, many of them not even edible (such as castor oil or jatropha), that to adoptconsumersociety habits as the basis for a universal undertaking such as 'making' energy, isimho, a dead end street. where are you goingtoget wvo in africa. or india. or china. or latin america in general ? yet all of these locations have fantastic vvo production potential. and at a very low cost too (suggest you check out http://www.tinytechindia.com/) palm and coco oils are presently selling for u$s 200 a ton, refined. and the world vvo glut continues, and is projected to remain so for at least five more years. so, to each his own. i am free to choose, and have done so. as edison said after doing10'000 experimentsbefore he finally made a working bulb: 'i did not fail 10'000 times trying to make an electric bulb. actually, i discovered10'000 ways how NOT to make one' using heavily used wvo, in my opinion, is one way NOT to make biodiesel. it lights the room aok, but there are better bulbs available... hey, have some mead !!! cheers, dick. snots usually refuse to snip this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] rig specs
thought i'd clear this up, keith. From: Keith Addison To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] what standards ??? Dick, I notice you don't specify your rig's for virgin oil when you tell people about it, here and elsewhere. my rig is a two vessel plant, with a mixing vat, and a pressurised reactor. it can do anything that requires mixing under pressure and temp, or vacuum and temp. it is a batch plant. itcould just as well make mayonnaise or chocolate syrup, or mix detergents. when asked if it can process used oil, i always state flat out thatwvo requires pre-processing, and also make clear that the plant can't do acid/base. it will base process wvo only after it has been suitably pre-processed. to date our sales territory has been argentina, and our literature is in spanish. i'll be happy to post it if you think it might help clear any misunderstandings. it is very detailed in the actual process the plant is designed for, and takes you through the whole thing one step at a time. we're not inventing the wheel, or claiming to. our plant has salient features which i will post in answer to camillo's post, but they are not proprietary, nor do we claim they are. hope this helps. some mead while reading this will also help !!! cheers, dick. snipping means more time for other things. this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] standards for the next decade
in answer to: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 5:02 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] what standards ??? Without wishing to sound too off-the cuff, this is a "Biofuels-BIZ" (business) forum. Issues of standards and how to keep to them are of vital importance to those of us planning on investing money in commercial production techniques and plants. * precisely because they might bevital, we should take an active role in their formulation. * i think ihave shown unequivocally that there are no definite standards, except for the austrian one, and thatother proposed standards show enormous divergence ofpriorities. * once again, i would like to quote from the national biodiesel board page: "Biodiesel is a proven fuel with over 30 million successful US road miles, and over 20 years of use in Europe...Ensure the neat biodiesel fuel meets the NBB biodiesel specification for pure biodiesel before blending with petrodiesel. The specification for biodiesel is designed to ensure that consumers will not experience operational problems from the fuels use. Make sure that biodiesel meets this specification and that the fuel supplier will warrant this fact. Quality fuel will provide the consumer with improved air quality and enhanced operability. Poor quality fuel will create operability problems and increased maintenance activity. Purchase only qualified fuel from a reputable source" * anybody reading this would assume that standards have been in place for at least 20 years in europe, and for 30 million miles in the us. * this is not the case. austria's specs, the only binding specs in effect, were drawn in '91, and modified in '96.thenbb specs arecertainly not binding, and were drawn up in april '01. they have yet to be ratified by a single state legislature inthe us. * i invite readers to visit the nbb site, and read the specs. biodiesel meeting these specs would be illegal throughout europe. * so i need to go back to my initial statement: because biodiesel standards might be vital to the future of this activity (though they haven't proven to be vital so far), we should take a positive attitude in this, and discuss, as harry proposes, simple, easy to check parameters. * addressing extremely sophisticated and expensive testing techniques at this point i think would distract us from coming up with a workable set of specs that can address 99 % of possible contingencies. * the one remaining stumbling block would be cetane determination, which as far as i know is done using a complex variable compression engine called a ricardo engine. but such engines abound, and i'm sure that testing services are available at reasonable rates. * for starters, we could discuss cetane number, and come up with some sort of concensus as to what is ideal, what is good, and what is bad. personally, i think ideal is 50 or more, good is 40-50, and unacceptable is less than 40. the same way us has 1 and 2 diesels, and gasoline can be regular or high test, i envisage the day of regular and high test biodiesels, based on cetane number. input welcome. * next on the agenda i would address density, that is weight per volume. maximum allowable for me would be 0.9, ideal would be 0.85, and good all values in between. again, input welcome. * i will leave it to other list members to come up with proposals for specific standards applicable to biodiesel. * but please remember thatsimple, replicable, easy to measure standards willbenefitall of us. whereas complicated, hard to measurestandards will only benefit large operators,andconfuse potential end users. Whether or not unwashed biodiesel (or any variety of fossil diesel) is good or bad for an engine, governments and other organisations set standards to be followed, and if meeting these requires washing, or use of NIR or GC then thats the way it is. * as i documented in my last posting, there are no standards 'to be followed' except for the austrian ones, and they are only binding in austria. if you read above, you will see that the world has been using biodiesel for more than two decades now, essentially without any standards. * i hold that superb biodiesel can be made without resorting to gc, or nir, or washing. but of course that will depend on the feedstock used, and the process parameters (ie: temp/pressure/mix velocity/meth mix/etc). to each his own. all our plant clients are delighted with results, based on this philosophy. they are getting equal or better performance from their tractors and trucks, and saving heaps of money doing it. * washing is the consequence of feedstock, and is not required if the feedstock and process are adequate, or if feedstock is made adequate for processing. garbage in, garbage out. Correct me if I'm wrong, Keith, but I though discussion of these points was the whole raison d'etre of the group.Tickells unwashed biodiesel-burning van may well be the last one standing, but fuel
[biofuels-biz] fuzzy standards
my webster defines fuzzy, amongst other things, as '...not clear; blurred...' and ifind present biodiesel 'standards' to be generallynot clear, or misleading. the one exception is perhaps the austrian standard, C 1191, dated nov. '96, and based on a previous austrian standard, 0norm C 1190, dated feb. '91. all other standardsactually are proposed standards, and not binding legally in their countries of origin. the din standard E-DIN 51606 dated sep. '97 is, as the 'e' signals, a proposed standard. it is not a lawfully enforceable standard. individuals or corporations may use it as their standard, but thatwould be the same as if i set up standards for my biodiesel, dick 101, and claimed my plant's biodiesel meets this standard. as long as a car manufacturer accepts my standards as valid, it wouldn't really matter if where 'universal' or not. the astm standard is again a proposed standard, drawn jointly with the national biodiesel board (nbb), theps 121dated '98, and modified april '01. it is of interest to note that in the us fuel standards are each state's prerogative, so that even if astm/nbb where to come up with a definite standard, it would still need to be ratified by 50 state legislatures. the ce standard is still in the political backwaters, and will probably not be available foranother year or so. my guess is that it will be half way betweenC 1191 and e-din51606. the argentine standard is again a proposed one, andfits inwith the ceone. spain is working on a standard, but so far a lot of hot air, but no muscle. i know of no other standards, but will be most happy to learn of such. australia, for example, or maybe japan ?? there are a couple of partial standards in the us applicable to biodiesel, and these are the material safetystandard, cas # 67784-80-9,which deals with thesafety ofbiodiesel, andtakes into consideration specific gravity(which astm/nbb does not), boiling point, which no other standard, us or elsewhere, addresses,% volatiles, and evaporation indexes. this last index is again not contemplated in astm/nbbps 121 standard. another us standard is the national motor freight classification, which defines biodiesel as a 'fatty acid ester', with an id# 144.920, and shipping# 65. but why would i call these proposed or existing standards fuzzy ? why are they unclear to me ? why do i find them confusing ?after all they might be proposed standards, but that shouldn'tdetract from their usefulness. the reason I find these 'standards' fuzzy, confusing, unclear, blurred, is because they are not in agreement with each other for parameters i consider of vital importance. 1) the cetane number varies from 40 for the astm/nbb to 49 for the austrian and e-din ones. now i consider cetane index key regarding engine longevity, and ml/hp/hr efficiency. how can i explain a 22.5 % spread in that value ? i find this confusing, to say the least. so which of the standards is right, and which is wrong ? fuzzy, what ? (aside: i would be delighted to learn how you can determine cetane indexwith either gc or nir. it would really further my education. and of course it would make allthose ricardo engines out there obsolete, overnight) 2) density, a relatively simple value to determine, goes from a minimum of 0.85 to 0.90, a mere5.9% spread. but this is in the european standards. theastm/nbb does not define a value for this parameter.why, or why not ? again, fuzzy. 3) the european standards for viscosity have a spread of 42.8 % the astm/nbb has a spread of 315.8 % !!! am i missing something here ? shall we say it's fuzzy ? 4) the fcpp so dear to gc testing proponents goes from 0 to 15 in the austrian standards, to 0 to 20 for the e-din. the astm/nbb does not take this into consideration. zilch to zilch. how fuzzy can you get ? 5) total sulphur has a spread of 500 % between the different 'standards'. that's a pretty hefty spread, considering biodiesel was supposed to besulphur free. something doesn't quite tally here. fuzzy, i'd say. 6) the list goes on, buti suggest you check it out yourselves. water content is zilch for the austrians, 0.03 % for e-din, and not listed for astm/nbb. water and sediment is not a european standard, but it is one for the astm/nbb crowd. same for total contamination, e-din seems to be losing sleep over this, but austria and the astm/nbb folks won't even list it. neutralisation value has a spread of 60 %, no mean feat that !! and so on and so forth. not very edifying, what ? and i haven't even mentioned iodine !!! being a good boy today. so what say we use our brains, and realise there are no reliable standards per se, and that we should start making up our own. logical, practical, pragmatic, and applicable to real world situations. else we're playing right into the hands of big oil. and into the hands of megabucks centralised biodiesel operators, who really are nothing more than
[biofuels-biz] big oil
keith, i think you miss my point. big oil will do whatever is in its power to discredit biofuels made or used by anyone except themselves. confusion regarding standards plays right into their hands. they can always claim that 'standards are not met', thus instilling fear into potential users. the fact that their own products do not meet 'standards' is never mentioned. standards are part facts, part politics. the european iodine indexstandard being discussed is a good example of this. i propose instead that we espouse pragmatism regarding biofuel standards, to level the field somewhat. and pragmatism in this case is spelt 'm-o-n-e-y' when big oil pushed alcohol out of the marketplace, it did so based on cost, and later on availability. there were no standards of any sort at the time. as long as the vehicle ran, price, and then availability, called the shots. my experience is that biofuels will have to go through the same learning curve, except whenpolitical decisions intervene to make things happen, as is the case of brazil, and now malaysia. and of course, my confidence is bolstered by the fact that big oil greed will play right into the hands of biofuels, as the spread between the two narrows, and eventuallyreverts. that's why i cited the argentine example. two years agonobody here had heard of biodiesel. today everyone wants in. but the reasons are100% economic. as i pointed out, argentina is in a position inwhich biodieselcan be a lot cheaper than dinodiesel. and this ismotivating demand. standards ? most end users wouldn't know where to start reading. or care less, if the savings are hefty enough. so i propose we stop posturing regarding standards, some of which, like cetane, cannot be readily measured without a lab ic engine. instead, let's concentrate on simple means of giving our biofuels a practical clean bill of health, using language that the layman can understand. because it's the layman, after all, that's going to make this work, or not. i gave alek's visual 'standard' as an example of this. pH is also easy to measure, usingcheap paper indicators, and is another standard that is 'understandable'. density is, methinks, in the same boat. and if we're worried about pour points, and such, running the biodiesel through the freezer, and then filtering to 10 microns, will take care of most of the unwanted particulates. summing up: lower costs and user friendlystandards will further biofuel use,IMHO, whereas complicated esoteric standards discussions will confuse the layman, and play right into big oil's hands. nothingsucceeds like success... but then, if what some peoplewant are standards that only theycan meet, they should say so up front, and not hide behind diddly lab language. longish two cents, what ? cheers, dick. snip= time,a commodity in perennial short supply. this is a public service message. Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 2:38 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] what standards ??? ...Big Oil has every reason and great ability to point fingers, along with a ready audience in all the right places, and is quite big enough to be impervious to any fingers pointed at them. Concern with biodiesel quality isn't "thick", it's (a) realistic, and (b) essential. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] what standards ???
i find all this carrying on about biodiesel standards and quality (or lack of) somewhat thick. if only we would apply the same self-righteous rigid thinking to fossil diesel, we would soon find that standards can be so farapart as to make usa diesel, for example, illegal in japan, or france. we would also find out that even these lax standards are seldom, if ever,enforced. neatfossil diesel will soften rubber readily. at least the stuff i buy at the pump here in argentina will. but this is a moot fact. soften some rubber with biodiesel though, and all hell breaks lose. fossildiesel will also come with all sorts ofgoodies included. put some in a jar, and let it sit for acouple of months.you'll swearyou've madebiod, as the stuff separates into a lower dark layer and a lighter top one. av gas is the same.it took the usaexperimental aircraft association years before the usa federal aviation agency allowedlead-free car gas use in aircraft. of course, beforethis could legally occur the aircraft operator had to put a sticker on the control panel,telling the world at large thatthe thing was actually flying on choke cargas. tickel has been operating his van for years now, never having washed one ml of biodiesel. i'm not saying he's right or wrong, i'm just saying that there's far too much posturing going on regarding fuzzy standards. cetane values, for example, cannot be determined by either gc, or nir, so what happens to that standard ? is everybody goingto start buying ricardo engines ? i think it wasalekswho put some sense into all of this whenhe provided a 'standard' for home-made bio: 'There is a rule of thumb: the brighter yellow in colour, the better the crack. As a standard you should take virgin sunflower oil yellow colour in see through sunlight. (it's a sort of colourometry)Then take a glass jar of the stuff and place it in front of a white wall in the evening. When seen in reflected light of a tungsten bulb it should not change to orange (a very simple case of absorption spectrometry).1.Nicely cracked bio : very pale yellow (less than virgin sunflower oil) and no change in colour with artificial lighting2.Acceptable bio : yellow like virgin sunflower oil or straw, but willget orangy undertone in reflected tungsten light3.Deeper colour diesel has a lot of glyc in it in form of various glycerids. Not good for standard engines.Remedy: If the diesel is too dark and you are sure that you used the correct quantity(s) of catayst(s), add a pinch more of alcohol. Can be that you are loosing it due to evaporation.' i don't know about the rest of you folks out there, but here in argentina, dino goes for u$s 0.60 a litre and bio can be made foru$s 0.35 or less. a medium size farmer goes through 200 k litres/year. meaning that if he switches to a 50/50 mix, he'll save u$s 25'000 per year, enough to pay for a few engineoverhauls, should heneed them. (though chances are he wont) money.don't you just love the smell of it on the other hand, if what really interests you is making bio from garbage, then i suppose the game's played differently. but i'll worry about that when i run out of virginal vegetable oil.. we must lean heavily on our principles. only way we'll manage to topple them..(clemeanceau) cheers, dick. the ability to snip is believedproportional to iq. this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [biofuels-biz] air car, reclaiming some energy?
*brilliant !! should work. with a 50 degree celsius gradient you should get at least 20 - 50 watt/hour. better than nothing, i say... cheers, dick. snip = considerate. this is a public service message. If the exhaust of the air car is -30C, and the surrounding air is 20C that is adifference of 50C. Has anyone heard of peltier devices, a group ofthermocouples bonded to ceramic plates? They produce electricity on atemperature difference, or create a temperature difference when supplied withelectricity. It was just an idea of mine that maybe electricity could besupplied by the temperature difference and perhaps reclaim some of the energyrequired during the compression.=http://devzero.ath.cx/Visit the Systems Information DatabaseHave some interesting information? Put it up on the SID.-Martin Klingensmith__Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--Small business owners...Tell us what you think!http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM-~-Biofuels at Journey to Foreverhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuel at WebConXhttp://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htmTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuel] andean childbirth
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 1:21 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: More cowflops *supposedly, children born is such altitudes evidence a lack of memory. unfortunately, kirk, this dammage is irreversible, so you'll have to work this out with your mom, methinks... *you might try carrying a notebook with you, to remember the last time you went to the bathroom, for example. *a bit of reverse radiation might help cheers, dick I remember a caution for travelers in the Andes that caucasian women cannot survive childbirth above 10,000 feet or maybe the child can't. Don't remember which. mandatory snipping is sometimes required, for bandwidth sanity. this is a public service message. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] transporting ethanol
much ado about nothing Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:01 PM Subject: [biofuel] California's impending gasoline crisis i'm surprised that ethanol cannot be shipped via pipeline, and dehidrated on arrival. talk about drowning in the proverbial glass with trace ammounts of water Ethanol, which is made primarily from corn in the Midwest, will have to be shipped to California via trucks or ships, as pipelines are not an option. This method of shipping makes the transition highly complex and expensive. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] air car missconceptions
how these threads take off !!! anyhow, here's a few items of info that seem to have been overlooked: high pressure (over 3000 psi) tanks are installed in all sort of passenger carrying vehicles, such as aeroplanes, cars, and buses. all big birds have high pressure hydraulic reservoirs, usually made from epoxy/kevlar windings, besides high pressure oxy/air bottles (that feed all of those drop down masks). little birds, and war birds have hp oxy/air bottles for pilot reliability. and then there are millions of cars and buses being run world wide on compressed natural gas. these are usually aluminium bottles, and seem to be holding their own pretty well. the same service stations that today fuel compressed natural gas vehicles can service compressed air vehicles. it takes 1.5 to 3 minutes to fuel a compressed natural gas vehicle, with enough 'fuel' to run a mid size car up to 200 km. or so. filling a compressed air vehicle will not take longer. the air tanks in the air car we are discussing are fibre wound, and are designed to split along a failure seam, downwards, rather than through catastrophic focused failure. the aircar's tanks are long and narrow, being nested next to the chassis longerons. in/out is through lateral openings. the air car is presently manufactured in france. it is a thoroughly road tested vehicle. there is one us franchise already, so local non-believers will soon be able to stand corrected. it is an urban car. lightweight, agile, easy to fix/repair, crashworthy tested. an entry level urban car, low priced, and versatile (there are delivery van/pick-up/taxi/passenger car versions). and it is not the 'ultimate' solution. no vehicle is. mtbf, service requirements, topography, user profile, mission profile, opportunity cost, operating cost, are just a few of the variables that should be taken into account when comparing vehicles. as to the ev/air car non-controversy, i go back to my initial statement: we should compare energy densities, and more precisely weight/energy densities. someone posted that rolling resistance was only influential to 25 mph. i would hazard that most urban situations will be well within that envelope. once more onto the breach, my dear friends, once more.(ws) cheers, dick 'what have they that i don't ? well, for one, they snipthis is a public service message. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] air car primer
negre's aircar is an urban, repeat, urban vehicle. it is not designed or meant to travel on i-95 from boston to ny. it is meant to travel within an urban environment, moving driver plus four passengers. it uses 70 % of the road space, and costs 25 % of what the selectra costs. it weighs 700 + pounds less than the selectra. if we are to constructively compare it to an ev (and i don't see why we can't have both, instead of having to choose between one or the other), we should perhaps compare it to town cars such as the ford 'think' (formerly pivco), or similar. with a full charge of air the range varies between 62 and 186 miles, depending on how fast, or uphill, or heavy, you travel. it can re-charge to 100 % in less than three minutes, which neither the solectra, or any other electric car for that matter, can do. (100 %, not 80 %) it is an alternative, not a magic bullet. just as the selectra, or the think, are alternatives. it is innovative, and affordable. the final decision will be the market's, in which neither the selectra, or the think, have had much success so far. the think has been on trial in california for close to five years now, with little to show for it. the original company, even though it had government support, went belly-up, and ford bought it to re-float the idea, probably as a pr spin. the aircar is 100 % privately funded, and has no direct or indirect connection to any car manufacturer. and the more the market knows about alternatives, the wiser the choice it can make. berating somebody's effort, or ideas, just because they don't coincide with yours, is not my idea of progress. and using information out of context -- as when comparing apples and pears -- is like cheating at solitaire. imho. '...or close up the wall with our english dead...' (again, ws) cheers, dick. i notice you snip; thanks for being considerate. this is a public service message. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] air car's indirect pollution
negre's air motor uses compressed air. this could (or not) cause 'centralised pollution. but this also holds true for ev's. methinks what should be compared is the energy efficiency of compressed air vs. batteries, as storage mediums. and personally, i'd feel safer riding a windbag than a leadsled. and of course a windbag will need less energy to move itself than an ev will, rolling resistance being proportional to weight. but then, nothing beats a horse and buggy, right steve ? the physics behind this thing are solid. and the marketing is brilliant = 500 factories world wide, all privately owned. the goals are modest = the franchise in spain calls for six factories, each able to put out 8-12'000 vehicles/yr. and the price is reasonable, u$s 8'000 for the unit built in spain. cost per factory, all in, is under u$s 4'500'000. less than what a learjet sells for, or what a full bells and whistle biodiesel facility sets you back, for that matter.. it's definitely a city car. the taxi version is based on the ubiquitous london taxi layout. and at a penny a mile, it's hard to beat (mexico city is supposed to be getting 22'000 air taxis, starting this year). service stations in spain charge 250 pesetas a full charge (90 m^3) which translates to u$s 1.32 this gives over 130 miles range. we have nation-wide availability of compressed natural gas service stations in argentina. transforming these bi-fuel (gas or air) would be as simple as putting additional filtering in, and a selector valve. the installed compressors are capable of quite a bit more than the 300 bar required for the air car. so re-fueling in argentina (or many other countries for that matter, such as italy) would be instantly available. and the on-board compressor is electric, not ic powered. i find the concept and execution to be almost flawless. but then, i'm just a lateral thinker, having flunked 'nit-picking 101' at school. cheers, dick snip = polite, considerate, thoughtful, thrifty, aok. this is a public service message. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] extruders
in answer to: Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan Ultimatly I'm looking at having an extruder on the property and processing the oil myself. This is still a very experimental part of the plan at this time. I need to learn more about oil extrusion and daily operating cost and volumes. The ultimate purpose of this whole project is to bring the profits closer to home for the farmers and keep my cost low.*yes, definitely. the india has developed all sort of small to medium size extruders for oil extraction, which are available at very affordable prices. good solid engineering, and excellent quality. you might want to contactCMERI(they have a web page) that is thegvt. org behind all these designs. farmers in argentina processing their own hybrid (black) sunflowerseed, have a final biodiesel net cost of well under u$s0.20 a litre(u$s 0.76 ausgallon), which compares favourably with diesel fuel's u$s 0.60 a litre(u$s2.27 a us gallon) retail price. I currently have my recovery cost figured for WVO at $.25 (USD) per gallon. Ester treatment at ~$.65 per gallon plus distribution cost.(This cost include the use of a methane recovery machine.) bit high, it would seem. what sort of price are you expecting for your glycerol ? how many kWh per gallon? maybe you need an efficient transesterification plant like ours !!! I'm still trying to find current solid figures for VVO. If you have any please forward them to me or point me in the right direction. Also where would one go to purchase a few tankers worth of VVO?buying oil is like buying a shirt. all sorts of colours and qualities. figure on a low of u$s 250.00, and a high of u$s 450.00, per metric tonne. look in the yellow pages as a good starting point. you might want to import direct. and remember, oil need not be edible, or deodorized, or a nice colour, to make biodiesel. as a matter of fact some of the best bio we've made used castor bean oil. guatemala jatropha oil should be cheap and makegood biod. Is anyone on this list already in commercial production. If so do you have a gas chromo on your premises are have your contracted with lab to do your testing. I'm not liscensed to fly one of those things, just curious to see how ASTM standards are met.some of our clients are in commercial production, but they mix bio with fossilbecause of the rubber problems (we have a lot of old trucks and tractors still making the rounds here), usually no more than 20 %. they check for water content (wife's oven will do), pH, density, and shine a light through it. everybody is carrying on about astm and e-din standards. but few mention dieselfuel standards. if you tried to sell usa made dieselfuel injapan you would be ilegal, not meeting their cetane ratings. plus a few other parameters. and astmbiodiesel made fromcertain feedstocks, such as soy oil, will not meet the iodine index required by the european community proposed standards, which are based on processing sunflower and rapeseed feedstocks. there's so much political horse manure flying around with this'standards'discussion that people lose sight of biodiesel's greataccomplishment, which is freedom fromfossil fuel monopolies. to circumvent this we have re-namedbiod 'aditol', and marketour plants as 'aditol processing plants'. aditol comes from 'add', meaning we promote biod as an additive, rather than an outright fuel. saves an awfull lot of hassle tax wise too !!! so the question toask, methinks, would be : what are the standards for b-20 ? shift the proof to the guys making 80 % of the fuel, not to the ones making20%, what ? as nikesays,' (let's) just do it'. keep up the good work !! cheers, dick. everybody's invited to join the sipping hall of fame. this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuel] drying naoh
in answer to: From: Pat McCotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: drying naoh-help request I do know that Powerball Technologies www.powerball.net raises the temperature of a solution NaOH to 300¡C to get NaH for its Powerball hydrogen fuel recycling process. thanks pat. interesting technology that powerball one From: Paul Gobert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: drying naoh how to dry naoh, (hows that for a snip Dick?) superb, paul. in the name of cyberspace, thanks mate !! Are you wanting to dry NaOH that has absorbed water or wanting to produce dry NaOH from a solution? ok, back to the drawing board (:-D) as you probably know, i manufacture small biodiesel plants. (400 litres/batch) as part of our quality assurance program we are experimenting with dissolving naoh into methanol at rather high concentrations, and then feeding this 'pre-mix' into the methoxide reactor, thus improving naoh/methanol miscibility. to go one step further, we are looking into making sure the naoh is 100 % dry before we 'pre-mix' it. (and from there we'll look into making sure the methanol is 100 % water free) the idea is to ban water from all process stages. so the answer is: we would like to dry naoh that has absorbed water from exposure to high humidity ambient air. thanks for the time paul. cheers, dick. why not snip yourself into everyone's heart ? this is a public service message. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] drying naoh-help request
hi all !! would have sworn that a bunch of list members had the knowledge i seek, and would be willing to share it with the list. so far no luck. so please, if anybody knows how to dry naoh, could she/he be kind enough to share this info ? sure appreciate it !! thanks for the time, cheers, dick. notice shorter download times ? that's what snipping does for you. this is a public service message. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan
in answer to : From: doctor who To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 7:53 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: Biz Plan (was)Quiet... My biggest challenge thus far hashas been finding an adequate WVO oil supply to keep up with my propossed plant size (1000 US Gallons input per 24 hours period). imho, a 4000 liter/day commercial biodiesel operation will eventually find itself painted into the proverbial corner. here's why: 1) pretty much inelastic supply. people can eat just so much bread, and use just so much oil. so supply in your area will be a function of demographics, more than any single factor. 2) thus, pick-up costswill escalate with volume, as the geographical area expands to meet increased feedstock needs. 3) wvo processing is costlier than vvo ditto. also less effective (biodiesel/wvo). and requires more initial capital input. 4) wvo often hasan existing market. present users of same are not simply going tolie down and die. 5) 'cheap is expensive'. getting uniform biodiesel quality from wvo is a lot harder than getting the samequality from vvo. so what's the bottom line ? i would hazard that in the long run, wvo input costs will go up, as flexible demandmeets inflexiblesupply,pick-up geography expands,and quality requirements go up. what is certainly an excellent cottage industry mightturn out to be difficult to scale up, as you're finding out with your project. i am aware thatfairly large operations are being run on wvo,but theseappear to be based on corporate agreements, something like proverbial macd negotiating to sell all of it's propietary wvo (don't know about franchises) to a singlebuyer, in a given area, on a contractual basis. established wvo pick-up operators usually have contracts to supplyindustries such as animal feed, or soap. personally, i have espoused vvo as the feedstock of choicefor our plants, itmakes life so much simpler,has smaller fixedcapital requirements and process costs,and delivers reliablequality. and last but not least, obtaining large quantities of vvo, ona regular, programmable, basis, is as easy as a phone call. two cents is all you get (:-D) cheers, dick. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuel] drying naoh
any suggestions on drying naoh to zero water content ? much appreciate your help. cheers, dick. be tidy, be considerate, snip yourself into other people's hearts. this is a public service message. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Relative feedstock oil prices!
commercial grade refined sunflower oil, u$s 350/metric ton, fob buenos aires. commercial grade palm oil, u$s 190/metric ton, fob malaysia. cottonseed oil should be no more than 75 % of sunflower oil. castor bean oil makes neat biodiesel too !! cheers, dick. please snip before my bandwidth snaps !!! this is a public service message. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Viernes 13 de Julio de 2001 23:43 Subject: [biofuels-biz] Relative feedstock oil prices! Can the group members help by listing the prices that they have paid recently for various types of vegy oil, please? Regards from Harry. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] what is you feedstock - was BIODIESEL/BOLIVIA
to our bolivian friends : pray tell what sort of feedstocks are you using, and whether you are in the altiplano or the bene regions. thanks for your time, cheers, dick. nice of you to snip, shows you care about others. this is a public service message. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: MiÂŽrcoles 11 de Julio de 2001 20:30 Subject: [biofuels-biz] BIODIESEL/BOLIVIA starting to produce BIODIESEL in Bolivia. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] sunflower oil production
in answer to : From: Bill Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SunflowerSeedOilBiodiesel Our plan is to make some gallons of bio-d this harvest but save most of the open pollinated non-hybrid seeds for planting a much larger plot next year. Our goal is to make enough bio-d to run the tractor so we approach a sustainable pilot project. *two types of sunflower seed : open pollinated 'stripped' and hybrid black. first has a 45 % average 'fat' content. second has 55 % average 'fat' content. first kind needs to be de-hulled. second kind can be pressed without de-hulling. *both types are ecologically 'correct'. hybrid sunflower is done by natural hybridization, not by genetically engineering. pretty much like myself, i'm a scandinavian/venezuelan hybrid. *you can buy excellent hybrids for $ 2 a pound. $ 50 a pound to me is a rip-off. but it's your money. *hybrids allow you to rotate seed characteristics, and keep a healthy stand. *cold press yields will be 25 % for stripped and 40 % for black. extra oil can be obtained by treating first press cake with hexane, and running it through the press again. slight pre-heating is usually part of the process *expect 60 gallons biodiesel per acre with black seed, and 40 with stripped. *presses can be either piston or plate, else screw extruder type. you'll need to do some scrounging. bielemberg designed a neat piston press you could probably build yourself for a few $. *if you can't hire a combine or a portable thresher, try putting the dry heads in a woven poly bag, and beating the living daylights out of them. good for letting off steam too. just think of your boss while doing this. or maybe your mother-in-law, or ex wife. always room for a bit of hate in this world of ours... I got the seed from seedsavers.org at about $50/pound, So I am expecting a profit this year as in making more pounds of seed. I am led to expect about 250 or more seeds per seed head. *there's one born every minute, so you might be able to sell your crop. expect no more than 1000 pounds of seed per acre. hybrid seed can double that. *sunflower oil makes beautiful biodiesel, and superb glycerol. use it all the time. *hope this helps, cheers, dick. considerate snipping is just a keystroke away, why not try it ? this is a public service message. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] oz biodiesel plants
harry, what batch size will your personal kits have ? when you write 5 ton, is that per batch ? are you aiming for acid/base, base/base, or base reactions ? we are presently delivering 200 k liters/yr plants (expandable to 500 k liters/yr), in argentina/uruguay, and would be interested in some sort of joint venture arrangement covering oz/nz. our plants are semi automatic, two vessel units, with pressure, vacuum, and temperature inputs. cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: MiÂŽrcoles 4 de Julio de 2001 19:09 Subject: hear, hear !!!Re: [biofuels-biz] tedious We expect to have personal use kits available within a month or so. We are currently building a 5 tonne batch processor for our own commercial use in Queensland. Regards from Harry. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in answer to : From: Wooly . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: MiÂŽrcoles 4 de Julio de 2001 11:01 Subject: [biofuels-biz] tedious Would it be too presumptuous to suggest that the group we would best focus again on business and commercial production issues, as it did when first started... most definitely agree with you mate. and as long as we're at it, is anybody down under flogging oz or kiwi made key-in-hand plants ? http://www.binacchi.com/glycerine.html http://www.alba-intl.com/whatbuy.htm http://www.europacrown.com/products/products.htm (+ look around - oilseed xtraction) Regards Steve Woolcott HarvestEnergy Sydney Australia __ ___ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] algae info request
in answer to : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Algae info needed Yesterday was a post asking about algae and wishing for an expert in this field on the newsgroup. We work with aquatic businesses in the USA and Mexico. Perhaps one of our people could answer your questions. I would be happy to pass them on if you like. that was probably my post , cornelius. i am specifically interested in info or links re oil producing algae. i presently build small/medium sized transesterification plants, and am interested in looking into off-the-beaten-path feedstock resources, such as jathropa curcas, or oil bearing algae. anything you could show re oil bearing algae would be a truly appreciated !!! in advance, thanks you for your time. cheers, dick. done any snipping lately ? helps you stay tuned to the needs of others (this is a public service message) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] to each his own...
in answer to several postings :
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:26:50 -0400
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: FindArticles - BIODIESEL MORE MUTAGENIC THAN SWEDISH CLASS 1:
STUDY.(renewable fuels found more toxic)(Brief Article)
Unfortunately, such articles and reports will hold some sway with those
who only evaluate superficially.
so true, what ? i like that phrasing : '...evaluate superficially...' must
make that my own...
As for biodiesel's claimed contribution to reduction of global warming,
there are other measures, such as provision of modern heat technology
in buildings, which could achieve substantially larger reduction
potentials at lower costs, the UBA report finds.
the factual information is essentially true. the world uses almost half of
total energy generated for heat. but i do not consider heat technology and
biodiesel to be antagonistic. to me they are complementary, resulting in
synergy, rather than excluding each other.
So, is the reader to conclude that it is better to do nothing?
definitely not, todd. the article is strongly biased against biodiesel (not
a single 'for' argument put forth), but cleverly presents a resource
allocation problem as an excuse to disqualify biodiesel. i think our
intelligent list members at large will see through this simplistic ploy !!!
From: Paul Gobert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Pressure + Snipping
- Original Message -
From: Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
our lc 400 one stage plants maintain 50 celsius and 2 bar during
mixing
and settling.
Dick do you notice any difference in reaction rate with the pressure
applied?
Considering pressure cookers, autoclaves etc the aim seems to be to get
the
temperature higher than heating at atmospheric pressure would allow. ie
boiling limits max temp. 15 psi with aqueous loads usually gives 121C.
Every ten degree C temperature rise doubles the reaction rate.
2 bar should enable a higher temp/faster reaction rate as the methanol
would
have a higher boiling point under pressure. Using 50C are you gaining any
advantage from the pressure?
paul, i emed you off-list to the above address, but my em came back. so here
goes :
1) i am not a chemistry major, i'm an aero eng. / economics major, so you
must excuse me if at times i sound a bit simplistic, or uninformed. i plead
guilty on both counts re chemistry, as well as many other subjects besides
!!!
2) we wanted heat in the reactor for three reasons : a) to be able to
duplicate reaction parameters every batch. b) to lower viscosity, and allow
for more vigorous mixing within a given motor hp input constraint. c) to
promote molecular banging around of the reactor's contents, the idea being
that the more girls meet the more boys, the more babies we end up with.
you state this with greater clarity when you post '...Every 10 degree C
temperature rise doubles the reaction rate...'
3) meth phase change was a serious constraint. so pressure was applied to
assure that no meth evaporates.
4) pressure input is simple, and inexpensive. our vessels are designed for
vacuum, so moderate pressure was no problem. as a bonus we use pressure
further down the process to evacuate the main reactor.
results have supported our initial theorizing. motor hp is kept within
reasonable limits for a single phase motor, which was a design requirement.
repeatability is assured, and we end up with consistent separation, and
biodiesel well within our target specs.
please remember we sell our plants to end users, rather than for commercial
production, so we can be more flexible as to results.
Now for a subject close to your heart and a timesaver for everyone.
Snipping. The term has me confused.
I usually highlight and delete non-relevant parts (perhaps I am cutting
out
too much). Is that the same as Snipping or is it another technique
altogether?
right on !! i read you as a brilliant person, naturally inclined towards
logical acts, such as snipping !!!
Snippers unite.
hear, hear !!
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: mad tallow and depressed oils...
You implied that discussing BSE here was a foolish aberration.
Whether tallow is a feasible long-term feedstock or not isn't very
relevant, it's a current opportunity, and biodiesel use must advance
step by step, taking what opportunities it can.
keith, i did not imply such a thing. i simply stated :
the list will run a fever now and then, but it somehow comes back
onstream after a while. last time it was the 'mad cow list'. now it's the
'john wayne vs. the world list'. but it goes away
i was specifically mentioning the list's propensity -- at times --- towards
heated discussions ending in very personal positioning, such as your's
regarding mad tallow !!! (:-D)
my not agreeing with you is not a foolish aberration. the same way you focus
on the short term ('...must advance step by step, taking'), i focus on
the long term. one does not disqualify the other
[biofuel] fitting a diesel to a gasoline powered vehicle
From: Paul Cooksley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: Poppycock!!! /Bashing/OFF TOPIC As someone who has just logged onto this group, and only for a week at that, I feel that there appears to be a serious ego problem, culturally and parochially... don't give it a second thought paul. the list will run a fever now and then, but it somehow comes back onstream after a while. last time it was the 'mad cow list'. now it's the 'john wayne vs. the world list'. but it goes away I had asked a question re: had anybody gone throught the process of fitting a diesel plant to a vehicle designed for petrol and whether there were any problems with gearing ie do I need to change the rear differential... i farm in uruguay, and reside in argentina. in both places diesel conversions are common. usually they fit a used japanese high speed diesel to a gasoline pick-up truck or big american car. these engines are fast diesels, and rev up quite well. also they come equiped with five speeders, vs the std american three speeder (older vehicles), so they are more flexible in rpm/ratio putout. a bonus is that a lot of these fast diesels are lighter than the big six cylinders they replace. usually 2 - 3 liters. isuzu, toyota, nissan, etc. all work great. stay away from the 24 volt models. you shouldn't have any dif ratio problems. and if you do, it's easy to go to a smaller diameter tire/wheel. the conversion is simple. so go ahead and tackle it with the usual oz panache !!! and stay with us to tell us about results. cheers, dick. snip and be recognized as a warm, caring person. this is a public service message. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] jathropa oil / castor oil / tung oil / cottonseed oil
has any list member ever made methyl ester biodiesel from virgin jathropa oil, castor oil (a close relative), tung oil, or cottonseed oil ? the ati group (germany) has used pure jathropa oil extensively in mali, to fuel small pre-chamber engines of the lister type. no mention is made of coking or similar propensities. cheers, dick. confuse-us : snipping is a delicate art, practiced by folks endowed with social awareness... Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] cottonseed oil
From: Paul Gobert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: cottonseed oil paul, tks for the posting. should you ever use virgin oil, it would be supper if you could post again. what is your source for used cottonseed oil ? what percent methanol, and how many grams naoh are you using ? settling temp ? what sort of glycerol do you get ? cheers, dick. Dick over the past few months I have been making small batches of BD from used cottenseed oil (largest batch so far 4L). Forms ester readily. Perhaps the virgin oil would process in a similar fashion or better. *have you tried snipping lately ? it's a great social integrator !!! (this is a public service message) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs...
answer in your em : Sent: Martes 19 de Junio de 2001 09:25 Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs... So still looking stupid at this end :)... i had to learn, just like you. i don't consider that makes me stupid !!! just curious, what ??? We are talking about nine thousand, one hundred dollars (US) for an 800 litre processor. yup. faf. that means delivered in buenos aires, argentina. tech transfer and joint ventures are a possibility. it would help if you told me whereabouts you are located. we're negotiating joint ventures in several locations. # What does this price include? the plant, faf, plus instalation and start-up. travel to final destination, and per diem extra. client provides 220 vac - 15 hp / compressed air / methanol-vegetable oil-glicerol-biodiesel storage. (optional 3 x 380 vac). # How many batches can it make per day? two 400 liter batches is nominal capacity. each batch takes ~ 2 hrs. # Could the output be increased by pumping the reacted contents into a separate settling tank(s)? yes, roughly 50 % capacity increase for each 400 liter settling tank. we don't recommend more than four settling tanks. each settling tank must have it's own electrical, pressure and vacuum connections. settling tanks are u$s 3'900.00 each. Sorry it looks terse but it's easier to read like that! i'd call it concise. cheers, dick. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs...
welcome to the global village, dave !!! in metrics, it would be 9.100,00. in anglosaxon it would be 9,100.00. so to eliminate guesswork, some bright cybernaut came up with a 'universal' notation for separating thousands : 9'100.00. i find it useful, as i have to deal with clients using both notations. (to a latin, your $9,100 figure would read $ 9 and 100/100) hope this helps. cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Lunes 18 de Junio de 2001 14:28 Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs... Dick you said: * u$s 9'100.00 faf buenos aires, plus per diem and travel for instalation and start-up. Please excuse my dense head, but I'm confused by the punctuation Do you mean $9,100 or $910,000. One seems very low the other perhaps a bit high. Dave Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Max capacity and consultant for biodiesel wanted
joe, answer in your em : Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: Max capacity and consultant for biodiesel wanted 1-What is the maximum capacity of a transesterification(biodiesel) reactor? there is no max capacity per se for batch units, but the bigger they get, the more complex they are as regards process quality control and automatization features. our experience is that several small plants are just as economical as one large one, more reliable and safer to operate, and make better use of human resources. small plants 'in series' have the advantage of a smaller infrastructure requirement, specially as regards electric power. small plants have the added advantage of allowing simultaneous processing of different feedstock's. In other words can I react vegetable(or cooking oils) in a 2,000 gals reactor? What about 5,000 gallons? suppose you can, but have never heard of a batch plant this large. when you get into those volumes you might want to go continuous. Is there a maximum capacity? What about ratio of Height to Diameter? RPM? don't know about max batch plant size. h/d we use in our reactors is ~ 1.5/1. rpm = 500 Any publication on the subject? yes, i'd suggest you start by reading tickel's book, 'from the fryer to the fuel tank'. you can get it from amazon. 2- We are thinking (our local group) on hiring a Biodiesel expert from any country of the Americas (who have had a few years experience in making biodiesel form spent oils) to come down to our place and assist us in the design, start up and training of a small biodiesel plant (from cooking oils). Capacity initially would be of less than 1,000 GPD. State your qualifications, fees etc. best i can do is send you specs of our LC-400 semi-automatic plant. it will process 200 gallons a day. we have been considering selling the engineering and/or franchising the construction, but this might be too small for what you want to do, unless you go the 'serial' route. you will need separate facilities for processing your wvo, and turn it into reliable feedstock. you know the old computer saying, 'garbage in - garbage out' whereabouts are you located, and are you fluent in spanish or portuguese ? cheers, dick. ps : you may also contact me ol : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] economy of scale Re: Digest # 491 + ethanol pricing.
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: rethinking economy of scale...Digest Number 491 *i knew it, i knew it !!! should learn to keep my mouth shut... ah, well, the harm is now done, so i guess i'll just have to add some more of my biogas to the fire...(:-D) I'm afraid you paint with far too broad a brush, very sweeping generalisations - true, but very far from the only thing that's true. There are far more than a billion subsistence farms, and the variety of circumstance is immense - do you really think you cover them all with what you've said? *keith, a broad subject usually requires a broad brush, if only for a first approximation. my comments are meant to cover those subsistence farmers who might be left out of a hypothetical mechanization scenario, either as individuals, or as a group. thus the one billion figure. and i accept that it's an approximation, as i'm sure you will also grant that there is no 'universal' data on this, given the varied parameters used to define small farming operations. *so i'm only talking small farmers that stand little chance of someday making use of ic energy. these are the rock bottom folks in the pyramid, and will remain there for as long as they continue to farm as they presently do. . *and while this happens, their surplus population will continue to flow into the cities, compounding the problem. A couple of things to add. Biodiesel may or may not be feasible at the individual small-peasant level *or necessary, i might add... bullocks, mules, and such are known to have little use for biodiesel, being programmed to run better on biomass. Indeed they do, and produce useful amounts of improved biomass in return. That's one option. There are many good projects dealing with this - animal traction, animal breeding, cart design, local road improvement, and of course biogas, and more. *very true. but the magnitude of income increase gained from these improved inputs is not enough to generate capital accumulation. *also, these improved methods of 'traditional' farming do not translate into greater market demand, which strongly affects capital accumulation. 'flat' or stagnant markets always translate into 'flat' or stagnant economic activity (fisher). more on this later. *a good example of this is 'first world' farming. the efficiency of the model improves yearly. but the market remains flat, and subsidies increase as efficiency increases just to keep the wheels turning. the small subsistence farmer does not have subsidies of any sort. as a matter of fact he often has to face subsidized outside competition. *you can become the world's most efficient farmer, but if the market's demand is elastic, your income will not improve accordingly. as you produce more, market prices will either remain stagnant, or go down. a good example of this are present palm oil prices. *folks, i wish we'd get REAL on this. there's ~ one thousand million subsistence farming operations going on in this planet, and none of them has a tractor, or anything else that runs on biodiesel, cocokero, or whatever. Nonsense. Subsistence farms and subsistence farming communities run through just about the full range of energy profiles - from sweat and that's it all the way through every possible shade and combination to diesel generators etc etc. *yes, of course. the definitions are so elastic that they can be made to fit almost any model. but as i mentioned ut supra, i only mean to examine the situation of the bottom dwellers in the pyramid, who also happen to be the most numerous. Improving local energy options at any of these levels (except the economic vacuum cleaner at the top) can have a very positive ripple effect. *will making biodiesel, requiring at least two 'foreign' inputs, reduce present deforestation rates ? fifty percent of all energy is used to generate heat. a subsistence farmer uses wood for this. can biodiesel change this ? *we have list members in first world countries having a hard time finding methanol, yet we are assuming subsistence farmers will have access to this as well as naoh ? (and should they manage to brew their own ethanol, they'll soon find out there's more money in making booze than in making biofuels... and they won't have to dry it either, or worry about koh) Using renewable, locally available raw materials is always the best option - one of the few times you can say always. *spoken like a true green !!! but unfortunately not so. we are no longer a world inhabited by 'prosumers' (toffler), for we have come to realize that strategic advantages exist that preclude this. an example would be a coconut farmer who buys most of his carbohydrates. his location/climate/labor can give him a better rate of exchange than he would have if he produced the carbohydrates himself. or vice versa. *and they never will have either, if the farming scene continues to evade the basic poor farmer's plight, which is lack of capital accumulation. Much
Re: [biofuels-biz]
ken, we are presently delivering small (800 liters/day in two batches) biodiesel plants in the argentina-uruguay area, and will be happy to exchange info on these. oil used is mainly sunflower. cheers dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Martes 5 de Junio de 2001 00:54 Subject: [biofuels-biz] Hello everyone, Anyone producing biodiesel in economical quantity? Maybe we can set up an exchange for biodiesel made from different oil sources. Any reactions? Ken - Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz]
andy, tks. for the inquiry. just posted basic specs for our std plant. if you need more info pls. let me know. whereabouts are you located, and what oil(s) are you planning to use ? cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Martes 5 de Junio de 2001 14:44 Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Dick, Can you point me in the direction of more info on the plant you produce? That's just about the size operation I'm looking to expand into. Thanks in advance. Andy Mixing Biodiesel in the garage and my VW loves it. :-) Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ken, we are presently delivering small (800 liters/day in two batches) biodiesel plants in the argentina-uruguay area, and will be happy to exchange info on these. oil used is mainly sunflower. cheers dick. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs...
actually, almost 100 % of 'free' methanol. we use vacuum and 50¡ celsius + to extract it before we actually separate the glycerol from the biodiesel. initial meth content depends on the oil being used, usually 15-20 %. cheers, dick. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Martes 5 de Junio de 2001 22:09 Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs... Hi, What's the recovery rate(or percentage) for methanol per batch of 400 litres? Gerry CARLSTEIN [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/06/2001 03:41:20 AM Please respond to biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com To: biofuels-biz biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:(bcc: LEE Gerry/Prin Engr/CSM/ST Group) Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs... jan, my answer in the text of your em : Sent: Martes 5 de Junio de 2001 14:32 Subject: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs... You deliver two plants for 800 liters of BD per day, do you ? * no, we deliver one plant capable of processing two batches of 400 liters each per 24 hr. period. our present delivery time is 120 days. 1) What are the initial costs per plant ? * u$s 9'100.00 faf buenos aires, plus per diem and travel for instalation and start-up. *this is a two vessel plant, semiautomatic, with manifold venting, and methanol recoup circuit with vacuum pump. all asi 304 ss construction. testing and calibration equipment provided with plant, as well as start-up training. all auto systems have redundant hand operated back-up systems. biodiesel is filtered to 5 microns. *client provides 3 bar compressed air source, and storage facilities for oil, methanol, glycerol, and biodiesel. *we are considering licensing construction abroad. 2) What are the running costs: *all prices per liter, in u$s dollars, unless indicated : -refined sunflower oil : 0,315 -industrial grade methanol : 0.49 -naoh : 0.80 / kg. -30 kWh per 400 liter batch. -3.0 hours per batch for processing and clean-up. 3. What are the revenue sources and their prices? *there is no market for biodiesel per se. our clients mix it with petrodiesel and treat is as an additive. saves hassle with the tax people. *diesel fuel in argentina/uruguay is 0.52 retail, 0.45 wholesale. *glycerol can be sold for 0.60-0.80 / kg. pure glycerin sells for 1.80-2.20 / kg. From my rough analysis (I am doing it for my to-be installation) it goes that the most important factor for BD production to be profitable is ( I want to sell it for profit) : (oil, etc...) Any comments *seems to me glycerol would be the most important variable in your cost/profit equation. hope this helps. cheers, dick. snipping is an art. you too can be an artist. just do it !!! Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs...
straight tickel. by the book. but with all sorts of before and after testing, pressure + temp during mixing, and vacuum + temp for meth recovery. all fluid transfers are pressurized. no washing. very 'affirmative' mixing... our clients use refined edible oil only. (so far). none of them use it poor for tax reasons. so far no bent rods (:-D) cheers, dick. snipping frees processor cycles and bandwidth !!! (This is a Public Service Message) Sent: MiÂŽrcoles 6 de Junio de 2001 01:23 Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: key figures for the initial costs and operating costs... Interesting. What sort of process are you using? Keith Addison Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz]
most relevant details in my other postings, but will be very happy to fill in any missing details !! cheers, dick. Nothing is as cuddly as a well snipped posting !! (This is a Public Service Message) Sent: Martes 5 de Junio de 2001 22:50 Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Tell us more! Marc de Piolenc Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 485
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: missinformation - ethanol use in brazil - #477 Hi Dick What is this in response to? I can't find the original. Thanks Keith Addison *article by kathleen dana (u. of colorado) on new enzimes being developed for ethanol production. (digest # 477). believe it was a 'posting within a posting'. made some ridiculous statement regarding brazil's 'experimenting' with ethanol as a fuel. if running six million vehicles on pure ethanol is 'experimenting', i demand my school money back !! *it's missinformation like this that helps dinos like bush convince people that punching holes in the artic is the only option. *the one label oil companies love to put on alternative fuels is 'experimental'. this equates to 'maybe some day, but not today...', and also to 'you could destroy your vehicle with this untested stuff...' *sent her the original, and a copy to the list, so listmembers could compare truth with fiction. *and wouldn't it be nice if other listmembers sent ms. kathleen a reminder to beter research her statements from now on ??? *we'll never learn, will we ? cheers, dick. *ps : am not snipping the tail of this so readers can refer back to my initial posting. kathleen, don't take this personal like, but your info on the use of ethanol in brazil is pathetic. brazil has six million + vehicles on the road running on pure ethanol, including seven hundred thousand trucks and farm tractors, and twelve thousand buses. brazil is the world's only country with an ongoing, successful, efficient, cost effective ethanol program. they started in 1987, and never looked back. all, repeat ALL, brazilian gasoline presently has 22 % anhydrous ethanol added to it. it used to be 24 % but they had to cut back because of last year's drought, to 20 %, and are now climbing back to historical levels. i find this impressive, considering brazil is amongst the world's ten largest economies. the us efforts by comparison are a sad joke. and all of this info is web available. your article gives the impression that ethanol fuels are 'just around the corner'. this is not so. ethanol fuels are a reality, in brazil, today. not bothering to seriously research this is somewhat provincial, wouldn't you say ? there is life, believe it or not, south of the pecos. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] missinformation - ethanol use in brazil - #477
kathleen, don't take this personal like, but your info on the use of ethanol in brazil is pathetic. brazil has six million + vehicles on the road running on pure ethanol, including seven hundred thousand trucks and farm tractors, and twelve thousand buses. brazil is the world's only country with an ongoing, successful, efficient, cost effective ethanol program. they started in 1987, and never looked back. all, repeat ALL, brazilian gasoline presently has 22 % anhydrous ethanol added to it. it used to be 24 % but they had to cut back because of last year's drought, to 20 %, and are now climbing back to historical levels. i find this impressive, considering brazil is amongst the world's ten largest economies. the us efforts by comparison are a sad joke. and all of this info is web available. your article gives the impression that ethanol fuels are 'just around the corner'. this is not so. ethanol fuels are a reality, in brazil, today. not bothering to seriously research this is somewhat provincial, wouldn't you say ? there is life, believe it or not, south of the pecos. cheers, dick carlstein [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] e piu si muove...
that was galileo on the earthcentric/suncentric controversy...'believe what you may, the fact is...' anybody out there hear of magnetic resonance imaging ? it's based on h atoms being forced to align themselves a certain way, etc, etc. (md's love it !!!) and fuels are usually long, complex chains of...guess whathydrocarbons (that means a lot of h molecules are in there) if nothing else, food for thought... steady keith, just talking medicine here (:-D) cheers, dick. ps : i get a lot of feedback on foggers along the lines of the above controversye piu si muove !!! This is a concise Super Snip message generated by Be Kind to Your Fellow List Reader's proprietary software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] of magnets and testing
i fully realize that this is basically a discussion forum, not a posting board for eccentric experiments. still, i find that one way of defending a position in a discussion is by describing the results obtained in actual trials. i find that there are theorists who will either support or reject a given idea without ever having tried it out. and then i find that there are those who will try the idea out, and find it did work for them, or that it did not. the first posture is an invitation to extended exchange of arguments, the participants choosing feeling over facts. the second posture promotes feedback, and further testing, either for or against. this attitude chooses facts over feelings. of all the postings on magnets, and fuel economy, the only posting i've read so far that is pretty much factual is john li's. it's missing some information, which i will request in the post itself, but otherwise is straightforward and to the point. it makes no assumptions, just shares results. i think this sort of attitude is of greater benefit to all of us, than sterile discussions based on feelings. thanks john for trying it out, and sharing with us. more in your post. From: John Li [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: magnets in fuel line. I tried it in my Nissan Pathfinder V6 EFI 1995 model, and got a smoother running engine. It felt like you are adding octane booster to the fuel tank. Here is how I did it. I placed an extremely powerful magnet (one that can cause small injuries if you are not careful), 1x2x1/4in., on top of the fuel line (rubber) after the fuel filter and before the injectors and taped it.. The result was an instant smoother engine. I tried to drive it around and it was really smoother and quiieter. It might just be my imagination . The next day, I put another magnet on the opposite side of the first magnet. So the rubber hose was already in between the 2 magnets. I taped the magnets together, thinking it would further improve the smoothness or increase the power. But the result was the opposite. The power and smoothness was lesser than when using one magnet only. So now, I removed the magnet below and left the one on top, as is, and still enjoyed the smoothness of the engine. I still can't believe it worked. I did not do any adjustment. *questions john : 1) type magnet ? (ie ceramic, etc) 2) origin of same (model, etc. if available) 3) i take it your fuel line feeds all injectors ? i am not familiar with your engine's layout. 4) how far from the nearest injector did you place the magnet ? 5) did you do a polarity test, if yes, what pole was in contact with the fuel line 6) when you put the other magnet on, did you again do a polarity test, or at least check to see if the magnets attracted or repelled each other ? 7) i assume the magnets did not touch ? 8) notice any difference when starting the engine ? 9) notice any difference in the idling speed ? (i personally don't think this is significant. all engines i've worked on run rich at idle) 10) was more low end torque available ? *thanks for the time john. off to the farm, will eagerly read the postings come next saturday. *regards to all, dick. *ps : please notice my elegant, time saving, considerate SNIPPING.(:-D) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] dysfunctional redress
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fwd: Saving Gasoline and Money Thanks a whole lot, Steve Spence. I really needed to know that. Got anything for erectile dysfunction; i.e. limp dick? if the magnet is the right shape, sliding it into the urethra will noticeably stiffen things up... ouch mag giver, md. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] magnet in the urethra
From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: dysfunctional redress would it work as a compass? it would definitely point at true north. maybe at true south too, but can't vouch for that yet. shielding at the protruding end might hamper accuracy. spring mattresses are definitely a no-no, unless non-magnetic stainless steel springs are fitted. when hiking alone, make sure no metalic rings or such interfere with true directional functions. if the magnet's section is too large, or the urethra's too small, violent expulsion of the magnet might ocurr when flushing, or milking. magnet removal is recommended when such a possiblity exists. metalic zippers should be non-magnetic, to preclude operational dificulties. this must be stressed, as people with penile dysfunction also tend to have memory dysfunction regarding zippers and such. considering a ceramic magnet's brittle nature, such types should be avoided. excess vacuum could also violently displace the magnet, inducing choking. otherwise, it is a very cost effective solution. i believe radio shack carries them in different lengths and diameters. Thanks a whole lot, Steve Spence. I really needed to know that. Got anything for erectile dysfunction; i.e. limp dick? if the magnet is the right shape, sliding it into the urethra will noticeably stiffen things up... ouch mag giver, md. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] magnetic savings / alky + dyno / hard water / snipping
From: Warren Rekow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Saving Gasoline and Money I've heard stories about putting magnets on gas lines to improve fuel mileage for years Dick, perhaps magnets attached to the tubing might increase the effectiveness of foggers? *good post warren !! this magnet thing either works, or else is just more urban legend. both ways, it shouldn't be hard to check out, like checking out novak's baby was easy. *will come up with a test routine, and post when i have my numbers in, just like the fogger. *some questions snipped into the article : ...Later, I discovered these devices contained simple magnets with the south-seeking poles directed inward *besides floating one of them, and then comparing, is there some other method for determining a magnet's south that i am unaware of, or have forgotten ? The magnets used are fairly strong rare-earth strontium ferroxide ceramic magnets which will pinch your fingers (Ouch!) if you are not careful, and four of them are enough for a single fuel-line for one car. Any similar strong magnet will work *such as speaker magnets ? how do i determine if a magnet is strong enough for this application ? Like the orgone accumulator, it is too simple for most people to believe... *i know for a fact that something very similar to an 'orgone accumulator' works just fine, and does generate fuel savings at a reasonable cost. this lends credibility to this gent's thesis. You can get the magnets at any Radio Shack... *it would sure help to have a rs cat # or something more specific to go on. any chance of obtaining this ? rs is such a comfy one-stop place for all of these odds and ends, i find... ...Natural Energy Works has been selling these simple strong magnets for years, available in sets of 10 for $10 plus $7 USA-Canada shipping, along with a little book on the subject for $12.95. The same effect works also on your propane or natural gas stove or furnace, when magnets are added to the feed lines just before the burners or combustion chambers. *what shape and size are the magnets n.e.w. sells ? 12.95 for a booklet on why and how it works sounds a bit steep to me. thoughts on this ? *notice closeness to entry point is invariably stressed. is 'the closer the better', or will 'close enough' do ? *nice project for anybody willing to keep statistically significant tabs on fuel use. i for one will fit it into one of my ongoing projects, asap. *who knows, 7-11 % from the fogger, + 5-15 % from the magnets, plus a bit of meth in the gasoline, and maybe an h generator, and we might be looking at some significant savings here. i've got the fogger down pat, and am halfway there with the h generator, so all i need to do now is mix some meth into the gas, grab some magnets and run... *life is only bearable when dreams egg you on, methinks... A DAILY GAME My death and I play daily games, whence she reminds me of herself, whilst I keep focused on my elusive quest, paying but scant attention to her ways, too busy with dreams I need to claim, before time comes for our embrace. *thanks for helping me enlarge the scope of my dreaming, warren. *and pls excuse myn OT jingle... From: Paul Gobert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: water + alky / dino-svo + alky / auto tranny + svo / biod + svo Apace Technology in Australia developed an emulsifier that enabled the mixing of ethanol with dinodiesel. They were active some 20 years ago but don't know where it went from there. *thanks for the info paul. i have it that benzene will allow a certain ammount of water contaminated ethanol to mix with gasoline, but have yet to try this. what about meth/dyno ? the asuncion, paraguay municipality at one point was going to make 10% anhidrous (absolute) ethanol content mandatory in dyno used in buses and such, but the project flopped due to truck/bus owner's resistance. maybe the old rubber controversy...?? (bobeda, any chance you could stop lurking and explain the eth/dyno program in asuncion ?)(:-D) From: Jeremy Shuey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fwd: Saving Gasoline and Money I do know that the magnets work on the water. We have extremely hard water here in my part of PA, with the limestone and all, and the magnets actually make the water a whole lot more soft *yes, i can corroborate that. we also have hard water in colonia, uruguay, where i farm trees and do research on alternative energies, and a neighbour installed a unit. it works fine except it requires periodic cleaning of the gunk the magnets somehow retain. my neighbour being a bit comfy gave up after half a dozen cleanings. will check back with him and post a full description in a fortnight or so. - *last but not least, how can we incentivate snipping amongst honorable list members ? it is a drag to read a two line answer, or comment, and find all of the original thread(s) attached, requiring tedious, wasteful scrolling. here
[biofuel] dinodiesel vs. svo in the uk
From: Biofuels [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: petrodiesel price in uk UK barrel is 205 liters - 45 UK not US gallons. *terry, a 'barrel' is a universal quantity of oil (petroleum), like when your read 'production in saudi arabia dropped by 500,000 barrels a day'. it has always been, and still is : 42 us gallons / 39.47 uk gallons / 0.159 m^3. *the 'barrel' you refer to, which i would call 'drum', used to be 54 us gallons (0.204 m^3), but now is generally filled with 55 us gallons (0.208 m^3) Petrodiesel is not crude oil *quite agree. the point i tried to make was that a barrel of oil has 159 liters. and that at 0.18 pence a liter you mention, that would mean 28.62 pounds per barrel. which is darn close to the spot price for oil. meaning that whoever refined the oil, stored it, and transported it to its final destination must be very, very good and efficient, much more so than exxon, shell, and the lot. 18p per liter is the price a garage (filling station) has to pay the supplier, before he (or she) adds around 4p profit, making it 22p. Add 45.82p fuel tax equals a rounded 68p. Multiply that by 17.5% VAT (a tax on a tax) equals 79.9p which is the average price you pay at the pump in the UK at the present. *which again coincides with my statement to the effect that in the uk petrodiesel at the pump was close to one u$s a liter (roughly 80 pence). *and if you compare this (80 pence) to the rapeseed oil price you quoted (was it 26 pence ?), i would say that svo compares favorably with petrodiesel in the uk. that i know off, rapeseed oil does not pay 45.82 pence fuel tax, and therein lies the tremendous advantage it has price wise vs. petrodiesel's 80 pence at the pump. Then there is the cost of the straight oil conversion to add on, amortized over the life of the vehicle. You do the sums. *i'd say that for an average 1 km/yr driver, using a 12 km/liter vehicle, and assuming a 40 pence per liter cost for rapeseed svo (because of vat, etc), the conversion would pay for itself in less than 18 months, and show a profit from there on of some 300 pounds/yr, assuming, that is, that petrodiesel does not increase in price, as it has had a tendency to do over the last 60 years or so. should petrodiesel go up, the profit for the car owner would be proportional to the petrodiesel price increase. *now, if besides this you were to add a alky/water mister to your diesel engine, and thus drop fuel use by at least 15 %, while at the same time de-coking your injectors and ring grooves, you might say that switching to svo isn't such a bad idea after all *and regarding environmental advantages(:-D) cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] clean derrieres, comfy beds, and svo coking
From: dhargis1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Musings about toilet tissue One thing that I have noticed is that in the USA and in Northern Europe the norm is to clean ones butt with toilet paper. In the Middle East, Africa, India, and I believe in China, the norm is to wash with water as needed. Probably the healthiest of the two methods is to wash. not only healthier, but also much more pleasent. the bane of the civilized traveler that needs to overnight in a us hotel is the lack of bidets, either with or without a sprinkler. the japanese (as usual) have a nifty arrangement in which the shower head is built into the toilet seat, and can be moved in and out of position. i agree that the ammounts of toilet paper that could be saved this way are mind boggling, and wonder if this isn't precisely the reason the us and northern europe countries, all paper producing economies, don't promote the use of cleaner butts. vaya uno a saber !!! From: Dana Linscott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: fluid bed reactors/steam engines I wonder if anyone has thought of producing a simple steam conversion for Wankel rotor engines. brillant thinking, what ??? Fluid bed reactors are basically a vertical tube with a blower at the bottom. A bed of sand sits in the tube atop a perforated plate which allows air to pass through the sand but prevents the sand from falling past. thanks for an enlightening post, dana !!! what diameter x length tube in your lab unit ? how much longer past the sand is the tube ? From: Dana Linscott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Diesel operating on pressed oil It is my understanding that there are two main problems with running diesels on SVO. 1. The solidification at low temperatures. Not a problem in sunny Mexico. and 2. Deposits on the injectors and ring grooves leading to inefficiency and possible serious engine damage. it would seem to me that misting a 50/50 mixture of alky/water in the induction of the engine, as matheson explains, would pretty much eliminate coking of both injectors and rings. as a matter of fact, i'm about to shoot myself in the foot, and try this, thus effectively curtailing my chances of becoming the world's next bill gates thanks to my biodiesel plants !!! but then i'll be able to flog-off the misters (not foggers) and make a killing there cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] petrodiesel price in uk
From: Biofuels [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Diesel operating on pressed oil Funny, I just did the figures, but these are applicable to UK only. Current price of fresh rapeseed oil is £270 a tonne - 24.54p per litre Petrodiesel in bulk is 18p a litre Hence, it is cheaper to run on fossil *funny, my figures differ from yours, terry : one barrel of crude oil has 159 liters. at 18 pence a liter it would cost .18 x 159 = 28.62 pounds, darn close to the price of the crude alone. profit, refining, and distribution of petrodiesel would add at least as much as the crude oil cost, which equates to 36 pence a liter. and then we have 10 downing street's slice, which is probably another 30 %, if not more. *so wholesale petroDIESEL fuel in the uk probably sells for at least 45 pence a liter. i know it sells for close to one u$s a liter at the pump. (retail) *the uk has the doubtful honor of having some of the most expensive petrofuels in the world. *which is not really funny. *at 25 pence a liter, rapeseed oil is a steal !!! warm it up, mist some alky/water into the intake manifold, and you're driving at half the cost. cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] by-pass filters, ag waste, us kings, and vacuum pumps...
From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: by-pass filter 'We are talking about two different by-pass filters here...' *superb posting, david !! thanks for the effort, we all need to know as much about filtering as we possibly can. keep the hammer flying, the nail will be eventually be driven home...(:-D) cheers, dick. From: F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: glycerine and absolute alcohol *i personally find marc's postings to be...well...epatant !!! what ? *except for a remark he makes offhand in the following one : 'The energy balance is not the whole story in any case. If the energy input is from a waste product and the energy out is in the form of high-grade liquid fuel, there is a net gain no matter how many BTUs are on which side of the ledger. A low pressure steam plant burning ag waste can furnish...' *there really is no such thing as 'ag waste'. if left to naturally transform, it will become organic matter, and help sequester carbon dioxide. if burnt it will produce carbondioxide, and then the carbon equation goes belly up. and when the carbon equation finally unbalances for good, we won't have any need for fuels or energy or whatever. 'cause we won't be around to make use of them. *also, ag waste soon becomes something else, as demand increases, and ag waste supplies dwindle. and before long we're providing the necessary energy byyou guessed right, chopping 'ag waste' trees down. *those selfsame trees we're losing at the rate of 3.5 % of remaining cover every ten years because nobody's planting trees for firewood (or clear lumber for that matter). *so it would make me infinitely happier if 'ag waste' is not taken lightly, but rather given a place in the energy equation. if we're going to use biomass for anything, we're going to have to replace biomass as part of the overall strategy. *maybe putting trees down so that down the road we have the required firewood. maybe going the hemp way. maybe mowing grass. or cropping sugar cane. but we will have to provide ex-ante the inputs necessary for the ex-post expected results. *and when we do that, we'll suddenly realize that what used to be 'ag waste' is now a precious commodity. *aside : marc, polytechnicien ? --- From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Chip off the Old Block - or - Like Father, Like Son That's a big no. The president believes that it's an American way of life, and that it should be the goal of policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way of life is a blessed one. - White House press secretary Ari Fleischer on whether President Bush would call on drivers to sharply reduce their fuel consumption. Or It's about preserving the American lifestyle. - President George Bush Sr., regarding the UN action dubbed Desert Storm, January, 1991. *i have never understood why a country of such indubitable greatness as the us at times chooses to elect such shoddy, egotistical, narrow-minded, and short-sighted 'leaders'. *(not to speak of regan, who really took the price, and was elected twice) *you're not alone in this one todd, believe me...!!! vacuum pumps : i use pressure in my plants. very convenient. easy and cheap to produce. standard fittings, accessories, etc, available all over. pump meth and oil to the reactor by pressuring holding containers. pump glycerol and biodiesel out of the reactor by pressuring reactor. pressure vent all meth fumes to a manifold. i find vacuum to be a very elegant solution, but somewhat expensive and complex. compressed air is perhaps worth considering... ??? cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] unsubscribe and such - model airplane diesel engines - 2cycle alky mix
Subject: Re: Re unsubscribe messages keith : 'people's follies are theirs. Not ours' From: F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Model diesel engines Diesel model airplane engines have nothing in common with real full-scale diesels except compression ignition of the fuel charge. They don't run on diesel fuel. *absolutely right, as usual !! they run on 1/3 ether, 1/3 kerosene, and 1/3 sae 20 straight mineral oil. Marc de Piolenc who still has his old Webra somewhere... *that was a mean one !! .15 ? what did you power with it ? --- From: Michael DeWolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: converting a chainsaw If someone would want to convert a gasoline chainsaw to a biofuel, how could this be done? Could you use Ethanol? Can you use Ethanol at 100%? Does it matter if it is a two-stroke or a four-stroke? Could you use Methanol? Can you use Methanol at 100% ... *both eth and meth, but it runs better on meth. any mix up to 100 %, but don't forget to add the oil if it's a smoke bomb. with pure meth you might have to add a bit more oil. don't ask me why, it just works that way. meth will melt rubber, so you'll have to make sure this won't upset things. eth will be kinder to rubber, but needs to be anhidrous if you are to mix it with gas. engine start-up on 100 % (eth and meth) might be a bit of a pain. *if you found a big enough 'glow plug' (has to be platinum alloy), you could run it on pure meth + castor oil, just like a model airplane glow plug engine. brazilians run bus/truck/tractor compression ignition engines on straight eth plus glow plugs. engines are identical to the dino models, except for the plugs to get them going. *i use 10 % meth on all my 2C stuff (mopeds, chainsaws, whackers, cultivators) just to feel good !!! don't use more % 'cause it dissolves the carburator diafragm. (you live and learn...) --- cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] flow/volume metering.
ok folks, thanks a bunch, have the pH meter thing beaten. next question : i'm pumping meth to the mixer by pressurizing the meth tank (and venting the excess meth fumes from the mixer to a separate holding vessel - law requires this). thing is, how can i measure the volume of meth that goes into the mixer ? i presently have a graduated side tube setup, but it rubs me the wrong way. thought i might find an inexpensive flow/volume meter that i could put in between the meth tank and the mixer, maybe allowing me to make the whole process automatic down the road. ideas anyone ? tks, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] pH meters
anybody in the list can provide info on digital pH meters selling for under $ 100.00, and having at least 0.1 resolution ? thanks, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 399
From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: alternate foggers 4) if tapping into a turbo, the fogger inlet goes to the turbo outlet, and the fogger outlet goes to the intake manifold. you get the best of both worlds. Would the pressure differential between the compressor outlet and the intake manifold be enough to run the fogger? Particularly under part load conditions, when the turbo isn't active. (most of the time) alan, when the turbo ain't pushing the engine's still sucking you get the best of both worlds, as i said. at low rpm the induction pressure differential makes the fogger work, and at high rpm the turbo boost makes it work even better !!! How much pressure does it take to run the fogger anyway? i've had it down to 18 and still bubbling pretty good. hope this helps. cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] pressure digest
take a piece of garden hose. hold up both ends and let the rest lie on the ground, as it will. now fill it with water, leaving the water a few inches off each end. the pressure pushing on the water at each end of the hose is the same = atmospheric. now gently blow on one end (just this once...(:-D)). you will observe the water column moves away from your mouth, and up the other end. what is the pressure at the open end ? atmospheric. what is the pressure at the mouth end ? atmospheric + additional pressure you generated. the open end is not sucking the water up. rather the mouth end is pushing the water out the other end. this is the way pressures work. the term vacuum is simply a synonym for 'differential pressure' vacuum per se does not exist. it's just a lower relative pressure. hope this helps. cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] glycerol
1) i find that glycerol, after the excess alky evaporates, makes a passable soap. wonder if anybody in the list has tried filtering, neutralizing, coloring, and scenting it, for use as 'liquid soap' ? (i must try this someday !!) what would be the pros and cons ? tickell mentions turning glycerol into glycerin soap, by adding more naoh, etc, etc. would a liquid form of the soap be easier than tickell's suggested 'hard soap' transformation ? glycerin soap is a premium soap, and i would imagine that a 'hand made' liquid version of it would also be a premium soap of sorts. 2) read somewhere that glycerol can be used as a soil improver. can't remember exactly if that was as an additional nutrient, or as an additional carbon source (ie, organic content). if so, couldn't it be mixed with an inert medium allowing for easy application ? what would happen if glycerol gets added to a compost pile, or to a methane biodigestor ? or mixed with chips and used as a sort of 'super mulch' ? 3) will glycerol disolve into another fuel/solvent, making the end product easier and safer to use as a substitute for heating fuel ? 4) could glycerol be used as a gasoline/alcohol/dinodiesel additive, adding lubricity ? 5) how innocuous is glycerol ? (neutralized and no free alky) could it be used as an intimate lubricant ? (:-D) 6) what about floating wick glycerol candles ? sort of like the old tallow lamps ? 7) is glycerol edible ? could it be mixed with starch, fermented, and distilled into a potent brew ? or mixed into animal fodder ? glycerol wheaties, anyone ? 8) could glycerol be mixed with another tensioactive product, and made into a 'new generation biodegradable detergent' ? anybody try using it in the clotheswasher, or dishwasher (my wife would give me a full bobbit, so count me out...), either at 100 %, or mixed with regular gunk ? 9) will red worms 'process' glycerol, turning it into a very saleable 'worm compost' ? (big market for this...) h.. (nothing beats lateral thinking, methinks !!!) cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] foggers
these are the results to date on the fogger in my fiat uno : 1) vehicle : fiat uno, 22,000 k. on the clock, 1.3 l. fuel injected, computer controlled, 95 octane gas, exhaust catalytic converter. 2) mission profile : 80 k.p.h. steady speed whenever possible. very hilly terrain. mild temperate weather. 3) fogger : straight water, one aquarium stone (2 cm. diameter x 4 cm. length), all piping 4.75 mm. (3/16) i.d. clear pvc tubing. fogger is connected directly to intake manifold, next to the power brake vacuum connection. 4) results so far : a) 09 jan 01 to 02 feb 01 (summer) : fogger ON - 865 k. - 51.88 l. - 16.67 k.p.l. (39.2 m.p.g.) b) 03 feb 01 to 30 mar 01 (end of summer) : fogger OFF - 753 k. - 50.28 l. - 14.98 k.p.l. (35.2 m.p.g.) c) 31 mar 01 to 27 apr 01 (early fall) : fogger ON - 672 k. - 41.77 l. - 16.09 k.p.l. (37.8 m.p.g.) 5) comments : fogger appears to be more effective at higher ambient temperatures, which is consistent with the latent heat theory. mileage improved + 7.4 % (low) and + 11. 3 % (high). this is consistent with results in novak's article. i do not use alcohol because i do not have freezing weather; alcohol having a lower latent heat than water, results would probably reflect this. oil remains noticeably cleaner, and in vehicles with high oil use (one liter/1000 k.), oil consumption is reduced by 50 %. this is probably due to a cleaner fire ring piston grove. spark plugs are of optimum color, and the central electrode remains clean. driving flexibility improves noticeably, and at lower r.p.m. there is no tendency to pre-ignition, even under extreme torque requirements. this is the first thing people notice when the unit is installed in their cars. foggers should bubble vigorously at idle. no valves are necessary. if the canister is too full of water, some droplets might be seen entering the engine, but no harm comes of this. water use varies according to the engine, and driving profile. higher in city driving, lower in highway driving (my case). high of one liter per 500 k., and low of one liter per 2000 k. why foggers are not standard factory equipment is beyond mei suppose the nih (not invented here) syndrome might have something to do with this. car manufacturers are strange animals. i worked for a couple of them way back, and still wonder how they managed to build a car at all, with all the infighting going on all the time... happy fogging !!! cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] agroafforestation is not quite agroforestation...
but both are on theme, methinks. both will produce the raw materials required to make all biofuels known to mankind. (h and electricity are alternative, but not bio. and cattle have to eat so we're back to trees and farming) quickly said, agroafforestation takes 100 % farmland, and diverts it from its intended use, by sharing crop space and habitat with trees, with minimal interference, and maximum profit. it's a trade off between growing trees, the real money makers, and growing crops, the cash flow generators. agroafforestation implies substantially improving the subsistence farmer's lot. the end product is a high priced commodity, universally traded, that generates windfall profits on a predictable, regular basis. this breaks the deadlock on the small farmer, who can barely support himself, much less generate extra income. the secret is to farm the trees for clear lumber. this requires wide spacing, and pruning. in a nutshell, a dollar invested agroafforesting existing cropland will generate between ten and twenty dollars in revenue at each rotation, usually lasting eight to twelve years. this is additional to the cash flow generated by cropping. (makes for a neat pension plan, what ?) we lose 3.5 % of remaining tree cover every 10 years (UN-FAO). at this rate, we'll soon choke ourselves out of existence, as we destroy the best carbonsuckers we have. in view of this, should we still consider making alcohol from wood ? only if we plant them first, methinks. and agroafforestation can help us achieve this. we can, of course, make fuel from crops, in a tree-less environment. but crops don't re-cycle water, and don't sequester carbon as well or as permanently as trees do. food for thought, what. in closing, my admiration to keith for a fantastic links job on this subject. cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] do onto others...
as staunchly as i support freedom, i also support respect for others, and their rights. this is a discussion list, with albeit broad but well defined subjects of interest. taking up other people's bandwidth with never ending discussions on a limerick's origin or phrasing is not my idea of respect for other's rights. offline is available to all to pursue such interests, methinks. good manners are the glue that keep a civilized society in relative harmony. i'm sorry there are people in the list who miss this point and act egotistically, uncaring of other member's discomfort. those who have left the list wrote that they did so because, being interested in our 'raison d'etre', they were instead swamped with frivolous, totally uncalled for postings dealing with themes totally outside of our subjects of interest. there are many humor lists and poetry lists out there that will more than welcome these folk's efforts. not that a bit of humor now and then is not welcome; but when it disregards the list's interests, it harms the lists purpose. i, for one can tell who cares for other peoples feelings and time by such actions, as well as by the lack of editing that accompanies many of the postings. these are usually the same people who vociferously defend their 'given rights', as they simultaneously forget that all of us have the same rights. do onto others... (and will somebody with authority please send the unsolicited court jester on a long vacation, with no return ticket ?) after all, why should i have to miss somebody's interesting posting on biofuels, and/or alternative energies, just to keep a babbling idiot happy ?? i think i have my rights too... cheers, dick. let's get real, please. - Original Message - From: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Martes 24 de Abril de 2001 05:45 Subject: [biofuel] Digest Number 384 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are 20 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: Pump Motor resource... From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. Re: unsubscribe From: Rob evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. Re: more windpower - Scam!? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. Re: unsubscribe From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5. Re: Pump Motor resource... From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6. Re: more windpower - Scam!? From: Dr. Gary Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7. Re: more windpower - Scam!? From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8. Re: more windpower - Scam!? From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9. Re: Sea Shanty From: Dr. Gary Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10. Re: Sea shanty From: Dr. Gary Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11. Re: Re: Sea shanty From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12. Wet Blanket was Sea shanty From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13. Re: Wet Blanket was Sea shanty From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14. uk methanol source From: Ian [EMAIL PROTECTED] 15. Re: methanol reclaiming From: Ian [EMAIL PROTECTED] 16. RE: Wet Blanket was Sea shanty From: Mike Brownstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17. RE: biofuels and gardners From: Mike Brownstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] 18. Re: uk methanol source From: Biofuels [EMAIL PROTECTED] 19. Re: Wet Blanket was Sea shanty From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20. Re: Wet Blanket was Sea shanty From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message: 1 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:40:56 +1200 From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Pump Motor resource... Todd, Thanks for the info. Took me 10 minutes to figure it out but area code for the fax number is wrong. Area code for Lincoln is 402 not 877. B.r., David Surplus Center 1015 West O Street P.O. Box 82209 Lincoln, Nebraska 68501-2209 Fax: 877-474-5198 Watts: 800-488-3407 Happy bargain shopping... Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:11:14 +0100 From: Rob evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: unsubscribe ONCE AGAIN please be so kind as to unsubscribe me from this newsgroup. whilst at the same time thanking you for previous knowledge ive gained here. regards Rob Evans - Original Message - From: sarah momsen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] unsubscribe i second that, please also
[biofuel] of farmers, slaves, and veggie oil coke...
keith wrote : From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Poor midwest farmers By the way, I still reckon this is all about biofuels. When it comes to energy efficiency, yield, productivity and just about everything else, biofuel crops produced on land-aware farms and on the modern version of slave estates or whatever - industrial farms - are two different animals. not much of an invitation, i guess, but as a farmer (agroafforester actually), i feel that keith's words empower me to put in my 2 cents, seeing as how 'no farming = no biodiesel'. IMHO farmer's woes are the result of combining the need to survive with a limited choice of strategies. consider this : edison tried 10,000 times to manufacture a reliable lightbulb before he hit on the right combination of materials and manufacturing processes. when asked how it felt to have failed 10,000 times, he replied : 'i did not fail 10,000 times. i found out 10,000 ways of NOT making lightbulbs'. a farmer cannot try 10,000 different ways of farming before he finds out which one works best for his pocket, and his land. he has to survive first. so the process of evolution towards more profitable, sustainable agriculture is understandably slow. and the number of players in this evolutionary game are understandably few. most farmers are too busy with survival, and unable to afford the setback of finding out how 'not to farm'... farming corporations operate on a different principle. they try new strategies, and as soon as they find one that can give them a better quarterly result, they adopt it. of course they don't care zip if this is going to mean trouble down the road, as long as king quarterly balance sheet is taken care of. genetically modified crops are a good example of this. the problem is compounded by the fact that corporate strategies filter down to smaller farmers. and farmers adopt them thinking that if it works for the big corporation it will work for them too. except it doesn't, because it was not a strategy designed for the individual farmer. as a result of this more and more farmers fail to make it from one year to the next, and are forced out of the game. corporate farming absorbs this acreage, and expands. this is called concentration. it happened with steel, railroads, oil, shipping, airlines, software, etc, etc, etc. some folks elegantly call it 'economy of scale', but it's really nothing more than greed...just like playing marbles for 'keeps', except they're very expensive marbles... it's a vicious circle, and i don't think we're going to see any significant changes in our lifespans. at least my lifespan (i'm 62). i have been a farmer on and off for the last 35 years or so. have had my ups and downs, and have been able to try a few 'how not to farm' strategies thanks to outside income derived from other professional activities. and i am now in a position to say that i have finally found what appears to be the correct way of making a lightbulb. and i am also in a position to state that none of my farmer neighbors, or agronomist/forester acquaintances, or gvt. people approached, show the slightest interest in agroafforestation. it's not in the textbooks or the search engines, it's not being researched in universities, and is not current corporate practice. it just doesn't exist. no matter the tangible results. i would have thought that a 50 % internal rate of return would be tempting. it isn't. i would also have thought that uninterrupted cash flow would be of interest. it isn't. lastly, i hoped that implied diversity and risk reduction would be worth considering. it isn't. it's in a sense like biodiesel. the europeans have been doing it for years; france even has it in it's lawbooks; the dot has tested the stuff to exhaustion, and yet in the us (the world's largest polluter and per capita enery user), biodiesel is a non entity. it just doesn't exist. but then humans are like this. several months back i posted my initial findings on the use of passive water foggers (they were novak's offsprings until an opinionated list member banished them as such (:-D). the findings were very encouraging, and corroborated previous publications on this same subject. you would think that a 10 % fuel savings for as long as the vehicle is used, in exchange of a one time $ 5 us investment, would be tempting, not to mention all the beneficial side effects, wouldn't you ? well, if so, have you heard anything further on the fogger ? have you read of ten different ways of putting it together ? have you come across any positive/negative comments ? of course not. the fogger just ceased to exist as soon as i posted my last contribution on the subject... why i don't know. all that i do know is that it works. i also know that i have installed it in 20 vehicles of different brands, sizes, and ages, and that it works for them too. i have also found out that it cleans out plugs, and the fire ring groove, cuts down on oil use, and
[biofuel] el cheapo wind turbines
From: Saghir Azar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Looking for Resources on Solar Energy Hi,Odin Olaya If you get any information on win gen under 100$ i would appreciate if you share it with me.Thanks regards. chk out 'picoturbine'. the principle is ingenious : generation is based on tangential velocity rather than angular velocity. it can easily be scaled up. speaker magnets will do the trick (scrap car speakers, for ex), and some varnished wire. savonius are slow, but simple and cheap to build. the secret is to build a 'cage' for the savonius so you don't have a long shaft in cantilever, but rather a 'beam supported at both ends'. you can hang everything out in the breeze too, magnets wont mind. well designed savonius' are self starting, that's why they are used on top of darrieux turbines to help start them. if a savonius is 'split' into two 90¡offset halves, it will work at slower wind velocities. the picoturbine alternator design obviates start-up drag. also, the lighter the 'vanes' the more efficient the savonius. the cage construction allows for large, yet very light, 'vanes'. a 'boost/buck' charger will increase energy storage potential of a savonius. the idea is you come in with 2 to 24 volts, and come out at a steady 13.8. savonius can be 'stayed' easily, there's no 'weathervaning'. for simplicity, easy maintenance, ease of construction, and reliability, nothing beats a savonius with a 'picoturbine' style alternator. but if you gear a regular generator to it, it sucks. a savonius could also be used to process biodiesel...(:-D) cheers, dick. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-~ Get great low international calling rates from Net2Phone! Click Here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/pOl7zD/kJXCAA/4ihDAA/FZTVlB/TM -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] misters, lice, and sundry # 341
(i think i'll start using 'fogger' instead of 'mister' to help confuse things a bit. like in '...don't confuse me with facts...!!!' From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] don't rule anything out, andrew !! else you couldn't explain superconductivity at high (relative) temps... Too true, you have a point. But, don't forget Achom's (sp?) Razor. The simplist explanation that is consistant with the facts is the correct one. Fusion is just WAY too exotic of an explanation. Unless you can convince me that it ISN'T anything else, I'm not going there. i'm agnostic on this. suposedly there's more energy stored in water than in gasoline, on a volume basis, but i have never researched it. (would you be so kind to run achom's razor past me off list ? remember i'm an oldie...) John from Australia just mentioned...sounds a lot like something we're all familiar with when running ethanol. The water lowers the temp in the cylinder, and the volatility of the mix, allowing for higher compression ratio's(more power). compression ratio remains constant. we are not modifying the engine to put a fogger in. also, the operating temperature goes up, not down. leaner mix explains this, your putting air into the engine downstream of the carb flapper, or the air filter (injection ic's) finally, it works just as well in a very modern comp controlled ic, such as my fiat's 1.3 liter electronic everything engine, that adjusts timing to pre-ignition sensing. better look in another drawer, methinks. wish more people would try this, then we'd pool our experiences, and come up to speed...sigh Ok, so hook me up with the appriate links to info. I'm in the US and I've got an early 90's model Honda with fuel injection. Can I make it happen? piece of cake !! ideal car for a fogger. talk to you off list. -Andrew from the West Coast how's 'andrewest' sound to you ? (:-D) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not direct injection but perhaps water introduction. Adding a water (or ethanol mix) mist to the air intake. Given the lack of manifold vacuum, I imagine a small pressure pump would be required, or perhaps pick off some pressure from the exhaust (mmm, sounds too complicated and only provides pressure after you most need it). How about a venturi type nozzle in the air intake path? i'm working on both, an outside electric mini pump, and a venturi-like device (for fogging a diesel). the venturi is simpler and cheaper, but coarser. both work ok. time will tell. i coincide with you in shying away from exhaust use. Andrew. (West Coast (of Australia)) and how would 'androz' sound to you ? too star trekkie perhaps ? (:-D) From: Ed Service [EMAIL PROTECTED] How about using manifold pressure (assuming you have a turbocharger!) to inject the mist upstream of the turbo intake? You would then have injection right when you wanted it... sounds good, specially for constant rpm engines such as a tractor's. bit hi tech maybe. jet engines in aircraft are 'bled' this way. would still need something for normally aspirated ic's. From: Aidan Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2.. While I was thinking of my engine efficiency it occurred to me that fuel mileage is reduced while using air-conditioning. it's the other way around, aidan. at highway speeds, the energy use of an air conditioner is lower than the additional drag that would be generated by an open window(s). this has been thoroughly researched. If this is the case then how much fuel is used to run the water pump, alternator, cam, fuel pump in a diesel, etc. What if one was to make all of these (except alternator) run off an electric or several electric motors? you would need to generate additional electricity to power those motors. say alternator efficiency is 75 %, and each motors efficiency is also 75 %, you would need to use 1.78 times more energy than if you ran the accessories directly off the engine. If this is the case couldn't one generate electricity from the exhaust? thermoelectric devices require a temperature differential to generate electricity. with the delta t you'd get between exhaust temp downstream from valves, and ambient air, you might generate a few watts. one side of the wafer would have to be hot (exhaust), and the other side cold (ambient). tricky, but could be done. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] something must be done with this subject, it makes me think of novaks child running around grunting and chewing on lice picked from the dogs fur. if the spca ever hears of this we'll never know the end of it. what right does n's child have to sequester and eat the dog's lice ? and don't lice have a 'right to life' ? or does he just chew on them, but never actually kills them, much like chewing gum ? and would grunting signal dissatissfaction, signaling a blatant case of child abuse ? is it the alky in the mister that causes this ? and finally, why is he running around ? shouldn't he be under somebody's supervision, or are
[biofuel] criminals, brown's bomb, hydrogen fusion, and ph measurements ...(#339)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: junkies, etc
...It's the same thing as with crime. Crime rates in the US are at record
lows. Why?...
latest us social research (scientific american) strongly correlates the drop
in criminality, and the freeing of abortion. less unwanted kids = less
criminals.
having worked in the ghettos as a volunteer, this makes sense to me. a kid
with an uncaring or antagonistic mother will have distorted social values,
and no role model.
(oops, did it again) (:-(
From: jerry dycus [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hydrogen
Just put 2 SS electrodes in a plastic bottle
with water and put 12vdc to them.
that's what sam does, remember the ss electrodes made from table knives ?
if you use a dopant in the electrolyte (i use table salt, sam uses baking
soda),
the gas production increases dramatically.
Subject: Fw: Hydrogen
This gas you will produce is called Brown's gas. A very flammable
mixture which should be obvious as it is a perfect blend of H and O for
combustion! If you do experiment with it do it cautiously...
hear, hear !! sam used a test cap at the bottom of his units, the idea
being that the test cap would let go first, directing the explosion
downwards.
at the time i suggested he use a mister as a flame arrestor, with the
improved efficiency of the mister added to the gas's energy.
personally, i'm a wimp, and sequester the o in al, using a sacrificial
anode, so that only h is generated. the figure i can vouch for is that i
consume 80-100 cc of water/hour at 6.3 amps. my other electrode is ss, and i
use a weak table salt electrolyte. alo is a pain, it just floats in the
electrolyte.
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re: Hydrogen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is my concern as well. If the power to split the water into H2
an O2 is provided by the motor, how exactly do you win out when you
burn the H2 in the motor? Is there more complete combustion of the
gasoline, as Robert mentions? and does this then get enough extra
torque out of the same amount of gas to make up for the energy lost
making the H2 in the first place? hmmm...seems possible, but I'd like
to see something that says this explicitly, or offers some other
mechanism, with some numbers to back it up.
ok, good questions. they also apply to the mister i use every day, with
remarkable results. how is it that one liter of water, misted into the car's
intake manifold over 5-600 kilometers, can improve mileage 6 to 10 percent ?
and how come this same mister improves low end torque, and starts the engine
faster ? and as a bonus it reduces oil use in worn engines ?
is this a synergy scenario, in which the total is greater than the sum of
the parts ? can this be so ?
yes, if we measure things using the right units.
a kilo of uranium 235 can release enormous amounts of energy through
fission. yet it's btu per kilo is probably very low.
perhaps the same thing happens with water. but if we measure its energy
potential only through btu values, we will never be able to explain these
phenomena.
i hold that adding water saturated air, or hydrogen, enhances the combustion
process of the ic engine, producing more measurable energy out, for the same
energy in. in other words, i hold that synergy is possible in an ic engine
milieu.
how this comes to be i do not know. i can only measure the results
empirically.
and these empirical results tell me that :
1) in my personal experience, adding pure h to an ic engined car enhances
performance and improves mileage up to 100 percent. this is with no outside
source of energy except the electricity produced by the car's ic engine via
its alternator, and the as yet unmeasured energy of water, when made
available through one of its components, h.
2) also in my experience, adding minute amounts of water to a car's ic
engine enhances the combustion process of same, and gives in return improved
mileage, and more available torque. (the oil use reduction is probably due
to a cleaner fire ring groove)
these are facts that can be replicated by anybody. and i'm not the first
one to apply them empirically. and there are one hundred and one variations
on the same theme, out there.
why this happens is beyond my capacity to determine. and i'm sure there's a
lot of people that would rather nobody ever finds out.
i have to date handed out a couple of dozen professionally built misters, to
people i know. the agreement is that i check-out the instalation, and that
after a 30 day trial period they either a) return the mister, or b) fork
over us$ 10.00 (introductory price !!!)
so far i haven't had any misters returned, and instead have invariably had
rave reviews, and eager forking over of ten dollar bills (in argentina one
peso = one dollar). i disconnected my wife's unit ('81 rabbit, 1.7 engine)
and she wouldn't speak to me until i put it back. (hmmm, maybe this is a
sideline i should look into)
these are the facts i have
[biofuel] misters and such...#340
From: Juan C. Bobeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] You convinced me, how do I get one of your $10.00 misters? Better yet, send me 2 (one for my wife, then I can see what happens when I remove it from her car...). will contact you off list, juan, we're close enough to each other. Will the mister work with diesels? no, the diesel mister is a different ball game. i'm presently testing one in my massey 165 tractor. so far it shows great promise, and greater fuel savings than the gas (petrol) ic engine mister. soon as it's properly tried and tested, i'll post it. --- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] yes, if we measure things using the right units. Ah... you just said the magic words :) bless your heart (or maybe I mean mind) used to teach physics way back. units and measurements were the big stumbling block then. they still are. nasa missed a planet because of a unit conversion mistake, remember ? we exchange concepts through words, and tangible data through units. words express feelings (Aristotle = explicit implies implicit), units express facts. not everybody is comfortable with facts. they leave little room for maneuvering !!! High temps in an engine, but nothing even remotely close to what you'd need for fusion. (cold fusion was one of those bad experiments that missed the crucial element of repeatability, even by the original discoverers of the effect)I think we can safely rule that out. don't rule anything out, andrew !! else you couldn't explain superconductivity at high (relative) temps... prevailing mindset calls for fusion to be somehow associated with heat, plasma, magnetic baskets, etc. but it wouldn't be the first time great minds are immersed in great confusion, and generate great conceptual mistakes. lots of people out there fighting evolution, or claiming there is no global warming... As far as water splitting and then later recombining, this could happen, but even under the most ideal circumstances, you still can't get back more than you put in (darn laws of thermodynamics!) true enough ! but we don't know how or with what it recombines, right ? ic engines are notoriously inefficient, we feed them all sorts of energy, and get very little back. friction, inertia, and temperature alone do not explain this waste. so maybe it's a bit like making biodiesel, you put more alcohol in just to make sure the reaction is complete. and we put in more fuel into an ic, to be sure we obtain the required power. personally, i'd hold that these devices optimize combustion. how, i don't know. and do i dare mention adsorption ? (:-D) Another possibility I heard mentioned on this list once was that the added water at the combustion temps is pretty high pressure steam, and since there is plenty of extra heat around you can make that steam essentially free of charge and add this extra pressure to pushing the cylinder. This also seems to make sense to me as a possible mechanism. Part ICE, part steam engine. plausible. except the amounts of steam would be so minute as to be almost negligible. one liter of water every 5-600 kilometers is no great amount of water. you'd get more than that if ambient humidity changed from 60 to 90 %. and it wouldn't explain the increase in net power when you inject h into the mixture. comment: a few of my 'clients' have remarked that driving with the mister on reminds them of the smooth driving associated with 'just after rain' conditions, when ambient humidity is at its max. I push the explanation end, not because I doubt, but because I'm a scientist (inquisitive) and an engineer and once you know exactly how and why something works you can modify it intelligently to optimize the effect. wish we could do that with pols and corporate animals... From: NBT - E. Beggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have missed some of this discussion, but am wondering about possible corrosion effects of added moisture in the cylinder and into lubricating oil over time? no more corrosion or water in the oil, than you'd have operating in a humid ambient. water misting keeps everything factory new clean, including spark plugs. oil use goes down, pointing to better sealing of rings. we are misting minute amounts of water into the air/fuel mixture, and not injecting water into the cylinders. that would be a different scenario. From: David Teal [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did make a mister (Novak's baby) for my 2,8 liter Vauxhall Royale petrol car. It probably works too well and consumes a liter of water/ethanol mix in a few miles. that would be the alcohol, david. had that happen to me a couple of times, shallow containers, and high alky/water mixes, and the darn thing would foam into the engine. the container should be kept half full, measured from the outlet tube level inside the container : outlet tube (to ic engine) level(irrespective of container lid level) max water level
[biofuel] junkies, etc
seen from abroad, as a non-resident alien with a tad less insular view, the present 'war on drugs' waged by the us gvt. seems to benefit just two players : -the drug cartels, who benefit from the resulting seller's market. -the military/industrial complex and it's partners, the entrenched political bureaucrats. (the term was coined by president eisenhower, to describe the arms/defense mafia already evident at the time) the 'fight against drugs' just make them more expensive, not harder to get. and it does creates the right 'atmosphere' for billions to be spent 'fighting' it. if a fraction of this money were spent on educating potential users, or helping people get out of drugs, and stay out, the us drug problem would find its only possible solution : reduced demand. as president arias of costa rica (only country in the world without an army; their constitution bans it) said some years back, 'it is surprising that when it comes to weapons, the us claims they make and sell them to third world countries to satisfy the demand, whereas when it comes to drugs they forget demand and concentrate of the supply side...' it's just a big political lie, nothing else. holland depenalized drugs years ago, and has seen crime rates drop, and hard drug use go down too. no politician in the us ever mentions this. as a previous posting mentioned, prohibition only made the present day mafia possible by supplying the unlimited growth funding it required. and it also made most americans into criminals, as they found illegal ways around the constitutional amendment, to satisfy their desire for beer, or whisky. these were common, everyday folks like you or me, who just wanted to have a drink. yet, to the law makers, and the law-enforcement agencies, they were criminals, felons of the worst kind. just a an occasional pot smoker today is considered a criminal, a felon of the worst kind. kennedy's dad made his fortune trading scotch via canada, afterwards smuggled into the us. at the time he was the us ambassador to the uk. nice sideline. and al capone started his (in)famous career distributing..BEER. you know, like bud does... so let's quit this cynical 'holier than thou' attitude and remember noam chomsky's words : The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum -- even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. Noam Chomsky the money spent on 'fighting drugs' only helps the 'warlords', and the 'druglords'. with our money, of course...( i pay taxes in the us, so i can include myself) maybe they should start dropping glyfosate on tobacco and barley crops in the us, to reduce production of these drugs too... but then, that might upset a few senators... and come to think of it, bourbon's made from corn, right. off topic, but definitely of interest to all, i think. sorry for the use of bandwidth. ricardo g. carlstein aka dick. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-~ Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/n4HqaC/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FZTVlB/TM -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] fuel prices in argentina
the difference between diesel and regular is due to taxes. argentina's transport system is heavily diesel truck dependant, as is the farming community. the gvt. has to keep taxes low on diesel, else the proverbial will hit the fan... oil companies, being oil companies (i still can't believe they're run by human beings !!), have a somewhat higher price for regular than for diesel at the refineries, but this is just smoke and whistles, and does not reflect actual costs. as to the pence/cents mix-up, sorry for that, but as i recall the posting just showed $. could be wrong. snip, snip, snip, like a good boy should... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-~ Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/l3joGB/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FZTVlB/TM -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 324
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:46:59 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: UK petrol still world's dearest despite tax cut LONDON - British motor fuels remain the dearest in Europe, and probably the world, despite cuts in excise duties announced in the annual British budget on Wednesday. Oil companies said UK petrol prices will fall to an average of 75 pence a litre, some two pence more than in Norway and the the Netherlands - Europe's next highest at 73 pence a litre. here in argentina, which by the way is a net petroleum exporter, we pay over u$s 1.00 a liter for regular, and u$s 0.50 a liter for diesel. uk prices for regular make me salivate... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-~ Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/l3joGB/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FZTVlB/TM -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] e-diesel (cfr Digest # 311)
e-diesel - cfr digest # 311 : from what the eth folks are saying, up to 15 % eth mixed into fossil diesel (plus an additive so it won't separate) is good. if so, and pardon my ignorance, why are we evaporating, or extracting, methanol from biodiesel ? wouldn't it be just as good as ethanol, in this context ? pre mixed m-diesel, what ? plus no separation... or is it the economics ? just my usual serendipitous searchings cheers, dick. (novak's children are doing just fine, thank you. full report in another couple of months or so) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Novak's baby comes of age.
just finished my third week of testing, and things couldn't be rosier. but first some background. uruguay's southwest corner is hilly. that's where i farm. the fiat uno i operate there is nimble enough, but downshifting was required every so often (from fifth to fourth). my best average before novak's baby was put in was 17.6 k/liter, but that was driving mostly at 70 kph, and rarely at or over 80 kph. for testing purposes i decided to drive at a constant 80 kph, no matter the terrain. same driving pattern a cruise control will give you, except this time the cruise control is my right foot. first week was a 'mixed' week, with the mister on for only two days (out of the normal four), and a lot of farting around (biofuel, what !) showing the gizmo and trying to total both it and the car. that first week gave an average of 15.66 k/liter, for a total driven distance of 262 k. second week was the time for serious driving, steady 80 kph, no downshifting (yes, none required !!!), for an average of 17.79 k/liter over a distance of 265 k. somebody used my car out of the parking lot in carmelo, where i leave it when i travel to buenos aires, and put 41 of those k's on it, i know not under what driving conditions and/or speeds, so these results might be a bit biased either way. i detected the extra k thanks to record keeping, mandatory for the test. third week. ended today, friday, and this time i not only took the k reading, but also filled it up to get the k/liter results. average was 18.60 k/liter, for a total driven distance of 159 k. next week will be the last on the mister, then three more weeks with a stock engine, no mister, then again three weeks with the mister, but this time only water, no alcohol, then the final three weeks on a straight engine, no mister. thorough 'reading' of plugs occurs every time the mister is on or off. this is my present game plan. so far, the mister works nicely. the car feels different, no pre-ignition is audible, the engine pulls well from almost idle. if pushed the engine will emit a 'growling' sound, and speed up right away. driving up those hills without having to downshift was very satisfying. all in all an improved car/engine/gearbox combination. and less fuel to boot !! novak mentioned two weeks on the beast before full fuel economy benefits were achieved. this seems to be the case with mine too. he also mentioned the peppier performance, and again, i have been able to corroborate this. finally he wrote about the 'coast forever' sensation, and i have found this to be present too. so i can venture that the unit is performing according to expectations. the question is why don't all cars have one in the engine compartment ? six percent savings of the gasoline burnt world wide probably adds up to quite a bit, i would hazard. (ahhh, yes, i see, that's precisely why, right ? naughty oil boys, can you believe that ?) cheers, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] my mad cow
i have this holstein cow at the farm that i keep strictly for the fluid she provides, occasionally carving up her latest heifer, and feeding it to the freezer for later use. come last xmas, it occurred to me i might feed the cow some of my mash, laced with the end product itself, namely (and hopefully) ethyl alcohol. a bio-fueled cow, what ? the idea was that this would provide a short-cut to egg-nogg production for the festive season. the cow loved it, and kept putting out milk like it always has. unlaced though. she just soaked up the alky for her own profit, not giving anything in return. ungrateful, i say, but then holsteins are like that. and then the cow started acting funny. i would be there sipping my scotch at the end of a hard farm day, and suddenly i would find the cow's covetous face plastered against my window. the sounds she put forth, trying to order her 'drink', would tear any barman's heart. so i usually relented, and bought her a round. after a while, the begging would go on all day long, and if not satisfied, the cow would start stomping my wife's flower beds, and harassing the chickens. even the dogs kept their distance from her. an suddenly it hit me. i now had a mad cow in my farm. what to do ? seeing how it had all started with an incremental biofuel situation (alky is bio, right ?), i decided that the only way out would be the biofuel list. i don't want to 'waste' my holstein. her milk is still good, when we manage to hold her down long enough to suck it out. but her behavior has definitely become obnoxious, and before the world comes to my door demanding that i cease her, and then incinerate her, i must find a solution. i have considered sticking an adequate length of tubing in her 'derriere', and piping this to an accumulator, thus allowing me to claim her as a tax exempt bio-digester. but the energy equation is lousy. and production would be, at best, unpredictable. so the list is the only way out. i realize this is a bit off theme, but then some bio advantage must perforce come of this experience, so your time will be well spent. thanks in advance, humanity will no doubt highlight this contribution in years to come. respectfully, dick. (;-D Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] cfr # 263
in answer to : Message: 11 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:32:15 +0800 From: John Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: hydrogen marbles ...If powerballs are made using natural gas, the following reaction will take place: CH4 + NaOH -- CO + NaH + 2 H2... ...Looks like this may be a neat way to turn Methane into a transportation fuel. May be more energy dense than compression... on second thought, powerballs already exist, plus naoh is not renewable or bio. so i'll just pursue the wasted al route for my h generator. but thanks guys for making me see the light !!! cheers, dick Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 264
in answer to : Message: 5 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:30:23 -0800 From: stephen lakios [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Dick Air is not pushed into an engine by atmospheric pressure.Air is drawn in by vacuum,created by valve timing.An engine would starve if it relied on atmospheric pressure.As the combustion takes place creating high pressure in the cly, pushing the piston down, the exhaust valve starts to open before the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke. The hot gases rush out,creating a vacuum.Just before the exhaust valve closes, the intake valve starts to open, extending the vacuum into the intake manifold and or the air chamber.This is why timing is so critical,and more so with a racing camshaft.Stephen stephen, is the following still valid ? p1v1 = p2v2 if so, atmospheric pressure will be greater than the pressure inside the cylinder during the intake cycle, and will 'push' the air in, trying to equalize pressures. that's why turbos make an engine more efficient. they push more air in. same thing happens with 'cold'. there is no such thing, just less heat. regards, dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] hydrogen marbles
anybody out there know how to take the o out of naoh ? i understand that it can be done by heating, but have no details. this would result in nah, which is what 'powerballs' are made of (same as superman's ?) supposedly, when you dunk said potent powerballs in water you get h, uncontaminated by o. (the powerball folks actually coat them in plastic, and cut them open as required. their rig works at 125-145 lbs/in2) aleks, this is right up your alley, what say ? novak's baby is growing up fine. more on its progress next week. dick carlstein [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] # 256 - oil palms - novak's baby.
the combustion process, reducing knocking (more power for a given timing setting), and adding it's latent energy to the process (thus better mileage) matheson mentions that a gallon of water, plus one gallon of alcohol, sprayed into the intake of a 125 hp diesel engine, reduced diesel fuel use from 8.5 gallons/hour to 6 gallons/hour. total fuel thus went from 8.5 to 7, or less 17.6 %, and total diesel went from 8.5 to 6, or less 29.4 %. notice that the heat value of alcohol is roughly half that of diesel fuel. while this was happening, power apparently increased, and low end torque improved. again, turbo-compound aircraft engines use alky/water to get increased bhp/liter performance, as it allows for leaner mixtures, without the penalty of higher head/exhaust temperatures. ...mixture of water and alcohol fume is probably not an accurate stoichometric (proper ratio of air/fuel, which varies depending on the fuel being used ) ratio, which could cause plug fouling, burning out of the catalytic converter, and excess emissions. fuel varies from one pump to the next. that's why modern engines are more fuel efficient, seeing how the on-board computer allows for instant timing and injection volume changes. so a modern engine will adapt automatically to fuel variations, and air/fuel ratios. and this would include alky/water add-ons. on the other hand, older engines are designed to be flexible in fuel/air requirements, else they could only operate on one type of fuel, which would be a commercial nightmare. so i'm not too worried about stoichometric ratios. plug fouling would be caused by hydrocarbon rich fuel/air mixtures, which is not the case. a lean mixture might induce plug cracking due to thermal stress. so far my plugs read 'neutral'. as to excess emissions, alcohol and water being oxygenates, i would imagine that emissions would drop, with the possible exception of nox. ...checking the emissions on a smog machine would tell the tale. my emission friends refuse to test my exhaust claiming that the water might total their sensors. seems like a storm in a teapot to me, but they own the darn things... that all will be addressed in stage two, after driveablity and economy are tested. i don't expect significant value shifts though. ...there is a good chance that the fuel injection system would compensate for a small amount of discrepancy, as it is designed to do, but large differences would be a problem. we're not dealing with large differences here. we're dealing with a system that runs through one liter of alky/ water every 700 kms or so, versus 40 plus liters of fuel. that's 2.5 %. a second point i would like to make is that it sounds like you are putting the vapors into the manifold below the plate, that is, down the air stream from the throttle plate, which means that the vacuum is high at idle and almost non-existent at full throttle, which means that you are putting the vapors in at idle, and not at high speed. that is correct. the car pulls much better in low rpm/high torque required situations. if you read my initial posting on this you will notice i mention this, and also mention that at higher rpm i could induce knocking, which i was unable to do at low rpm. it's the closest to an auto tranny feeling i have ever had with a stick shift car. this coincides with novak's findings. the only way to get the benefits of the mister for all of the rpm range would be to use a pump whose vacuum would be proportional to rpm, and feed the intake from it's outlet. i believe i mentioned in my posting that at a later stage i would be incorporating this into the system. mother nature mentioned a system similar to novak's that was set up this way, using the smog pump. in places other than america, the cars will not have a catalyst that means the other 95.5 percent of the planet, right ? voltaire wrote : perfect is good's enemy. i think we are looking at a very simple system here, that can be put together for the price of a video rental, that apparently makes the car easier to drive, with less wear and tear (knocking and vibration), is applicable to any and all ic engines, and might also result in fuel savings (will let you know in another two months...) worth a try i say. why don't you try it ? who knows, it might work for you too... but there's no way you'll win a prize if you don't buy a ticket first !!! dick carlstein Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] Re: # 260 - dale's machine.
in answer to : Message: 13 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 06:21:40 - From: Dale Scroggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re:Dale's machine I finally learned to upload files to my home page. Here are some pictures and a drawing of the processor. Don't expect much in the way of page design. superb dale !! thanks for educating us !!! (and boy, does your page load fast don't know what you did, but i wish more people would do it - you probably read the instruction manual, which always helps !!!) and in support of john harris's request, could you please run us through a batch ? i know you did it, summarily, in a previous posting, but would love a 'blow by blow' description. (or is it 'suck by suck', considering the vacuum pump ? this is getting out of hand...), if you can find the time. again, heartfelt thanks for your generosity. dick carlstein Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 255
in answer to : Message: 4 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 18:12:49 - From: Tek Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: here there - Digest 254 there may be a terminology difference where you are from where I am. What is your location? I have called 2 fuel oil dealers now and both say that k1 is d1, and they sell it interchangeably. d1 is never meant to run in an engine, it is for heating only, or used as an anti gel additive to d2. Why do you infer that anyone is advocating running an engine on d1, or k1? diesel #1 and #2 are covered by astm d-975. they are both diesel fuels. kerosene is not a diesel engine fuel, although it can be mixed with diesel fuel in cold environments. kerosene comes in all sorts of grades, amongst which there are nine 'aviation' grades. the reason i mentioned jp1 is because it is probably the 'best' commercially available kero. suggest you ask the oil dealers you consulted with what astm spec covers their 'k1 is d1' fuel. that information is available through the safety sheet that accompanies each shipment. my location does not have #1 or #2 diesel fuel. it just has 'diesel fuel', like most parts of the world. the d1 and d2 grading is an astm spec, as per the above. astm is an american institution. dick carlstein Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] novak's second baby
i am again happy to report that the second misting unit is in place, this time an improved one installed in my wife's car. specs are as follows : vehicle second unit is installed in : volkswagen rabbit, 1981, 1.7 l direct mechanical fuel injected engine. aprox 150.000 k on it. in good running shape, wife uses it every day for her trips around town. modifications from first unit : smaller container (1 l vs. 2 l); stiff container, with only one wide mouth lid held by a hinge and clasp design, much like a tool-box; no valve, direct from canister to vacuum. entry point into induction system : right next to the power brake vacuum hose, very close to the intake manifold. results have been similar to the first unit, except perhaps more noticeable because of the larger engine, and the fact that this rabbit only has a four speed gearbox. an added bonus is that wife insisted on an alcohol mix, and as i had none available, i used up some of my grant's scotch whisky. bout same proportions as first unit. for the first few minutes the thing smelt like a bloody refinery. settled down to lower smell impact from there on. but you can still notice the scotch in the air. do not suggest you use this. any cop pulling you over will swear in court that you were stinking drunk. vacuum in the canister is such that the lid cannot be opened while in operation. it bubbles viciously away ! acceleration is improved. low end performance is much improved. low end knocking/vibration disappeared, even under severe driving conditions (doing a 360 in a roundabout in third gear at 45 kph !) summing up, wife now claims she has what amounts to an auto tranny car. note : as vacuum drops at higher engine rpm, knocking becomes noticeable again. next step : plan on installing a separate vacuum pump, as used in diesel powered cars with power brakes, to get vacuum proportional to engine rpm, or at least constant. have a hunch this would be somewhat like using a smog pump, though i'm not really familiar with what that is. vacuum pumps are pulley driven off the cshaft, and just pull a vacuum for the power brake diaphragm. will not run fuel economy tests on this car, 'cause k meter not working. enjoy ! (ps, did it again, i guess...) dick carsltein. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] here there - Digest 254
in answer to : Sent: Domingo 14 de Enero de 2001 07:56 Subject: [biofuel] Digest Number 254 Message: 2 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:04:32 +0300 From: Derek [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Digest Number 248 I have run 50/50 diesel/kerosene mixes for years in my Diesel engines without any trouble in cold weather. It is needed to lower the gel point. I have even run higher kerosene mixes when the weather was extremely cold. The only problem that I am aware of is the lower lubricity of the kerosene, so prolonged use can wear the injector pump prematurely. Most of the time when I have used kerosene, the choice was between not going at all, or going with kerosene. Where I fill up the kerosene pump is on the same island as the diesel fuel, and I have watched plenty of long-haul truckers adding kerosene to their saddle tanks in cold weather. Derek yes, cold weather will allow you to mix kero and diesel to a certain extent. you can also judiciously add gas for that matter. or # 40 lubricating oil, which a lot of truckers do every 25000 k or so to give the injection pump an extra lubrication 'boost'. but that does not make # 1 diesel fuel into kerosene. and it does not mean you can run a diesel engine on STRAIGHT kerosene, same as you wouldn't run a jet engine on # 1 diesel fuel. #1 diesel has a lower flash point, a lower viscosity, and less carbon residue than #2 diesel. it has the same cetane index (us: 40 - europe: 49 - japan: 45). but it is not kerosene. and it will total your diesel engine, starting with the injectors, then on to the injection pump, and finally the pistons. i wish people wouldn't make statements - such as # 1 diesel being kerosene - obviously based on feeling rather than fact. they are misleading, and potentially dangerous. dick carlstein Message: 3 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:34:02 - From: Tek Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Digest Number 247 just for the record, there is a small difference in the btu content of diesel vs. biodiesel (42mj/kg vs. 37mj/kg). about 12 %, partially offset by 7% increase in combustion efficiency, for a net loss of 5%. Not that I have been able to notice. the increase in efficiency is partially due to better combustion (biodiesel is an oxygenate), but also to increased lubricity, ie : less internal friction. and a net loss of 5 % is something that you will notice, specially if you're running a fleet of trucks or buses ! if we can reduce that 5 % deficiency by means of alky/water injection, it will help level the field, even if you can do the same with dinodiesel. i suspect that alky/water injection will have a greater impact with biodiesel than with dinodiesel, due to the first's higher o content. IMHO. ditto for some sort of h input, methinks. dick carlstein Message: 4 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:58:59 - From: Tek Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Digest Number 248 Never said you should run on kerosene. The point was, don't run on #1 Diesel, which is identical to K1 kero, and sold interchangeably in this neck of the woods. Diesel Fuel is #2 diesel. We would mix #2 and k1 in the winter time to keep #2 from gelling. sorry tek, but your statement was : '# 1 diesel is kerosene'. if they're selling kero as #1 diesel in your part of the woods, then you might want to look into totaling an engine on that 'kerodiesel' they're selling, and then suing them to your heart's content, and your pocketbook's benefit. dick carlstein Message: 9 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:34:41 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: chamois filter - was Re: Digest Number 252 A chamois? ...just not sure how it would work. neither am i. Chamois is a goat, not a sheep, by the way. Actually a mountain goat-antelope with big, swept-back horns, incredibly sure-footed. Originally chamois leather was made from their skin, now prepared from ordinary sheep or goat leather. which is what you buy at k-mart and such ! chamois are a surveyed species now, prevalent in the alps. Message: 10 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:39:51 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel (Re: Digest Number 247) (as regards to h or alky/water booster's ability to improve biodiesel's performance. But it would have the same effect with dinodiesel, wouldn't it? yes, but i suspect to a lesser degree. biodiesel being an oxygenate, the boost is synergized, methinks. i don't have conclusive proof of this yet, but am working on it. it's a long program though, probably another six months before i can post results. Retarding the timing 3 degrees can make all the difference between more or less NOx. Have a look at this: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_nox.html there are all sorts of diesel motors (direct or indirect injection, with or without pre-combustion chambers / compression ratios vary from a low 14 to a high 17 / long stoke-short stroke / etc) in some cases, actually advancing the timing works better than retarding it. i think the bottom line
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 248
in answer to : Message: 25 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:17:34 - From: Tek [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: diesel fuel #1 is kerosene suggest that whoever wrote this buys himself a mercedes benz diesel powered car, and runs it on jp1 (jet fuel), which is the purest form of kerosene commercially available. should he be able to start the motor, he should carefully time the elapsed time before it self destroys, in a rather grandiose manner. i believe such statements to be misleading, and therefore harmful. we are all entitled to information ( right to know), but the same does not apply to misinformation. IMHO. kerosene's propensity to auto-ignite are such that many years back john deere would equip it's kerosene engined tractors with a water injector to restore power when the knocking got really bad. and these engines where at best 7:1, and spark ignition fired. do not under any circumstances attempt to run a diesel engine on kerosene, unless you wish to total it. dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] Ron Novak's baby...
i am happy to announce that i have already put 250 k plus on my fiat uno, with ron novak's suggested water/alcohol mister. and it runs exactly as novak said it would !! my fiat uno is a nov '99 unit, with 2 k on the clock, impeccably driven and kept by yours truly since factory new. i drive it in my farmwork, mostly 20 to 40 k. trips. i normally drive 1500 k per month, rarely over 80 kph. (poor roads/economy) the engine is the latest fiat indirect electronic injection 1300 cc engine. it has a five speed gearbox, and will push the car to 160 kph. it is a very peppy and economical car. my best mileage so far has been 17.6 k/liter of high test gas, which sells locally for us$ 1.15 a liter (that's more than four bucks a gallon guys !!!) it's a hard show to beat in economy and agility. enter ron novaks device : i used a 2 liter tupperware with a 'double' lid. the big lid covers the container, and has a smaller lid used to pour-out the contents without removing the big lid. all components are mounted on the big lid. the airstone is a std one, 19 mm diameter x 22 mm long all piping is 4 mm id pvc crystal tubing. mist enters the engine via a very convenient 4 mm od tube placed in the intake manifold just above the vacuum take-off for the power brakes. i suspect this is used for the airconditioner, which my car does not have. all in all it's a very simple, straightforward installation. that tube on the manifold was a real bonus !!! i put in an aquarium valve, but have never used it, so i'm deleting it from the next unit. disconnect is just as easy by just pulling the tube, and replacing it with the factory plug. one less thing that might leak, or go wrong. KISS, what ? when the engine starts it speeds up for the first couple of seconds until the vacuum starts acting on the fluid/airstone. then it goes back to normal. the bubbling must be seen to be believed. after a minute or so a one cm thick 'foam' layer forms on top of the alcohol/water mixture. this could be due to water, which being well water is quite hard. anyways, it looks like a beer with a collapsed head on it. acceleration improves noticeably. low end torque improves quite bit. it like driving an automatic four speed car, with cruise control. i farm in southwest uruguay, and it's hilly terrain, plus i drive slow (80 kph tops), so some downshifting to 4th gear was required once in a while. since i put the mister in, downshifting is history. i will be driving uphill at 60 kph, punch the gas, and smile as the fiat uno smoothly accelerates to 80 kph with nary a knock or shudder. i'm using a mixture of 350 cc ethanol and 1150 cc well water. will try other mixes later on. have not run mileage trials yet. they start next week. everything considered, the five dollars or so invested have provided me with a vehicle that is much easier to drive, and has better performance on the road. that alone was worth the money spent. now to add a hydrogen boost, and i'll be in clover... but first i'll test this unit thoroughly, and provide the data as it becomes available. if you have a fish shop nearby, and can locate a 4 mm (or 1/8) intake point somewhere in your intake circuit, you could have a lot of fun checking this out. experimenting can't get any cheaper than this !!! dick carlstein Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 252
in answer to : Message: 5 (#252) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:57:37 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: screens Keith, I doubt if thats possible. Believe a diesel molecule would be bigger than a water molecule. One molecule of water as H20 is after all only three atoms although the molecular weight is something like 33 (1 x 1 plus 2 x 16 offhand). Out of my depth unfortunately and I quickly get lost. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Aleks with your vastly superior knowledge of chemistry please enlighten us if possible. Believe it may be possible to pass water rather than diesel on this basis if I am correct about molecule size. B.r., David You are absolutely right. But a molecule of water weights just 18 g/mol. Another possibility to drain water may be osmosys which requires a membrane. *i don't know why it works, but old pilots like myself used to filter our aircraft gas through a 'chamoix', that is a wool-less sheepskin. the gas would go through ok, but the water would not. did it for safety when flying in the hinterlands. dick carlstein Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] zoology
Subject: Re: rats and such anybody checking out this discussion group would asume we're into zoology, right ? (:-D he might also asume that some of us have missplaced the delete key, thus explaining why certain messages are mostly neverending repetitions of previous postings, with the latest (brief) contribution heading the parade. [if y'all hit and hold shift, then scroll (either arrow keys or page up/down), you will blank the text you decide is irelevant. then hit delete, and watch as the miracle of conciseness floods the screen. IMHO.] no hard feelings, pretty please, just trying to lighten the burden on those scroll keys... (:-D 'back onto the breach, my dear friends, once more, or close up the wall with our english dead...' (ws rIII) dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] hydrogen booster (cfr Digest Number 242)
Message: 20 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 01:56:46 - From: Sam Dabbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Hydrogen Booster snip ...Anyway, I made two units out of 2 1/2 pvc pipe (as opposed to one 4 as some use)with a test cap glued on the bottom and a cleanout glued on the top of both... pray sam, what are a 'test cap', and a 'cleanout' ? snip ...output of the boosters together and then went with line to a bubbler to act as a filter made out of a 20 oz pepsi-cola bottle.Then out of the bottle with another line an into the breather to a fitting located directly above the carburetor throat. Some folks use a pump to pump the oxygen/hydrogen into the breather, but to me that is a waste of time and trouble. The vacuum at carb is more than sufficient to pull everything out and into the motor. The bubbler I mention is filled halfway with distilled water. I don't know anybody else doing that, but it serves a dual purpose for me. I can make sure nothing but the gases that I want go to the engine and the bubbler is fun and exciting to watch while it is chugging away. You can see how your reaction is going without having to uncap and take a peek... q one: could the gases be run into a tee and input through the vacuum line inlet of the carburetor ? q two: mother earth news published info on a water/alcohol 'bubbler based on 'wet' micro bubbles originating in a fishtank air stone inside a bottle filled with water/alcohol (3:1 or so), and entering the carb via the vacuum line inlet tube. men claimed a 6% boost in mileage. could an air stone be used in the entry line of your 'bubler' to further increase efficiency ? q three: where would you place entry orifice in a fuel injected ice ? q four: any reason this wouldn't work on a diesel cycle ice ? snip ...So far the best electrode material has been stainless steel. Stainless steel butter knives to be exact. These will have less corrosion. Corrosion of electrodes was the first thing noticed with other metals such as galvanized steel, aluminum and brass q one: approximate surface area of the electrode in the electrolyte ? any idea what type ss alloy (18/8 - now 314 - maybe) ? width to length ratio of the electrode in the electrolyte ? q two: ever try carbon rods for electrodes, like brian fullerton's dad did in his school experiments ? (message 24 digest # 242) ? snip ...Battery drain on the charging system was a problem at first. Then I tried a solar battery maintainer which helped and then ultimately went to a separate dedicated alternator with a built in voltage regulator of course. Then to its own small motorcycle battery and to the boost. Solved that problem. q one: we're looking at a max of 50 watts continuous, right ? (4 a. x ~12 v.). did this put a strain on your factory installed alternator ? did you consider going to a bigger, heavy duty alternator, instead of the two alternator set-up you mention ? snip ...As for electrolytes, many were tried. All using distilled water and... But the best so far was baking soda and distilled water. q one: how much baking soda ? (weight per volume of distilled water) snip Message: 24 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:44:30 -0800 From: Bryan Fullerton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Hydrogen Booster snip ...and did some experiments on my own using a couple of car batteries and some aluminum. I found that I could cut aluminum under water. The side effect of the arcing under water produces masses of hydrogen! Absolutely TONS of it in comparison to straight electrolysis alone. q one: sounds very promising, how did you actually go about 'cutting' aluminum under water ? what sort of amps x volts were you using ? was this just water, or was it some sort of electrolyte ? snip ...Water it seems does not conduct electricity all that well, so close proximation of the electrodes really helps.. So I placed them really close together but then discovered that the resulting bubbles effectively decreased the surface area dramatically diminishing the effect... q one: did you try other electrolytes besides plain water ? any improvement ? regards to one and all, may the new 'round-the-sun' cycle bring a bit more peace to humanity. dick. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] brazilian eth/meth info
to be imported and used instead of being replaced by ETBE. so, as things stand, no real political committments are being made. makes for great reading, but no results are to be seen on the roads. when you drive into ANY brazilian fuel facility, shell, exxon, petrobras, etc, included, you will find four fuel pumps : diesel - hi test gas (petrol) - regular gas - and ANHYDROUS ETHANOL. no matter where in brazil you happen to be, this is the rule. and remember that ALL their gas (petrol) contains minimum 24 % pure anhydrous ethanol. initially it had to be politically enforced. today, the market demand makes it happen, without the need of political support. the fossil fuel boys (and that includes coal and gas), spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year, just to make sure that the brazil scenario is not repeated elsewhere... ...I'd have thought your Brazilian 100% ethanol cars would run on 180, wouldn't they? can't honestly say. have tried 96% (~192 proof) for a short distance, in an emergency, but that's as far as my know-how goes !! sugar cane yields well over 350 gallons of ethanol per acre, versus 250 for corn. and production costs for sugar cane are roughly half those of corn/wheat/sorghum. Thankyou, nice numbers. plus no erosion. Why not? I've seen serious erosion in sugarcane fields (Philippines). sugar cane in brazil is a perennial crop for all practical purposes. they even have varieties of cane that fix air nitrogen through azotobacter symbiosis. cane is planted in level land profile curves, with perennial grass strips every so often in steep locations. thus no run-off = no erosion. plus, organic matter is replaced at harvest time when leaves and tops are left on the field. many years back they used to burn them, but this is no longer so. snip on another tack : it's easy for us to add our five cents worth to a given posting, and then hit the send command. in my opinion, this forces the reader into tedious, time consuming scrolling. would it be possible to have some of the list members delete the material not pertinent to their answer before they send said answer ? i for one will be eternally grateful for such considerate action. snip hope you all have great holidays, and a superb start (the real one !) of the new millenium !!! dick carlstein -uruguay/argentina -- eGroups Sponsor -~-~ Download Net2Phone's free software to make FREE calls anywhere within the US from your PC now! Get great low rates on international calls! http://click.egroups.com/1/10923/0/_/837408/_/977836831/ -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] serious ethanol players
i know not if this info has been on the list before, and if so, pls. excuse. maybe re-reading it won't do any harm ! brazil is today the only serious ethanol player in the world. all other ethanol users are amateurs by comparison. in 1984 brazil decided to go the anhydrous ethanol route. it set up vehicle mix standards for manufacturers, and made available (until 1997) a subsidy of 140 million dollars to anhydrous ethanol (ae) manufacturers. in a country with 140 million people this is mere chickenfeed. since then brazil has manufactured close to six million vehicles that run on straight 100% ae. these include over seven hundred thousand trucks and farm tractors, and some twelve thousand buses. all manufacturers, and that includes ford and gm, have a line-up of ae powered vehicles. to manufacture the necessary ae, brazil has some fifteen million acres of dedicated sugar cane plantations. as if this where not enough, all brazilian gasoline has a minimum of 24% ae (v/v) content, and this will probably be upped to 26% in the near future. as things stand, brazil has the experienceand the expertise derived fromrunning the world's largest alcohol fueled fleet, for over sixteen years. as of this posting, the factory price for a liter of ae in brazil is $R 0.40, or $R 1.51 a us gallon. this translates to us$ 0.90 a gallon ! (R=real, the local currency) brazilianae producers are already having to reach agreements with vehicle manufacturers,asthe available ae production will only fuel 25% of the total brazilian vehicle fleet. as fossil fuel prices escalate, the demand for ae vehicles grows too, and premium prices for such vehicles will become common. brazil also has developed the world's most efficient technology for transforming wood to methanol, with wood charcoal as a by-product. considering that a typical eucalyptus plantation in brazil yields well over thirty metric tons of growth per year, per hectare (27500 pounds per year per acre), brazil is in a position to launch a methanol/charcoal program to supplement it's standing ae undertaking. the wood used in such a program would all be plantation grown, thus the methanoland charcoal co2 generation would be neutral or even negative when these components are burnt. so now the rabbit is out of the hat. after this, all other ethanol efforts will look puny by comparison, methinks. and by the way, making ethanol from corn is half as efficient as making it from sugarcane. enjoy !, dick. eGroups Sponsor Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
serious ethanol players - II (cfr [biofuel] Digest Number 222)
i know not if this is good netiquette, but will try to answer all in one em, using plain text. cheers, dick. From: jerry dycus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: serious ethanol players Plain text please so we can read you posts easier. this ok ? How about giving us some info on the process used in making methanol from wood? both eth and meth can be made from wood. brazil has developed a modified scholler-madison process, that besides producing methanol, effectively transforms residual lignine into wood charcoal. eth from wood is made by acid hydrolisis. brazilians estimate that one metric tonne of methanol requires 2.4 metric tonnes of eucalyptus wood. all of brazil's present fossil fuel energy input could be met by planting one (1) percent of brazil's land area with eucalyptus. food for thought, what ? for further info suggest you contact the Rio Claro experimental station in SP, bzl. fellow by the name of kozen igue used to run this program. will try to look up some cyber addresses and post them. From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: serious ethanol players Thanks for this. There has been news on Brazil's ethanol program on the list before, but re-reading it does no harm at all! If you visit the list website and search the archive for Brazil you'll find quite a lot of info. http://www.egroups.com/messages/biofuel with fossil oil's price escalating at its present rate (and i don't think we've seen the worst yet !), ethanol news in brazil are 'breaking news'. i personally think we're about to see significant growth in the brazilian sugar cane/ethanol industry, and this, for example, is not reflected in the brazil archive you mention. as soon as fossil oil went past the us$ 32.00 per barrel price level, sugar cane ethanol became an inside track contender. the world has a glut of sugar, and diminishing fossil oil reserves. yet nobody seems to be fully aware that all required homework has been done by the brazilians, who operate six millon vehicles on straight ethanol, including trucks, tractors, and buses. by comparison, e80/m80 efforts pale. if the us were to politically motivate the use of pure ethanol for school/urban buses, it could improve city air, reduce fossil oil imports, and eliminate sugar subsidies, all in one go. plus it would be that much closer to complying with the kyoto protocol v.a.v. co2 emmissions. but nobody lobbies for this. and it takes a lot of money to run a pol's campaign. which the api boys are happy to provide... (american petroleum institute) again, this is not reflected in the postings. But this is a nice, clear outline, good to know. thanks keith, that feels good ! (:-D More details on the methanol program would definitely be interesting. By the way, is there much small-scale ethanol production in Brazil - backyard or on-farm operations like some of the list members are running (or would like to)? the meth info is coverd in preceeding paragraphs. smalll scale eth production is widespread, but for 'shine purposes. it's called 'cachaza', and it can be very tasty, and very, very, potent ! but there's no small scale eth production for fuel, because of the hydrophile nature of the beast, which requires molecular sieve technology, available to the large producer, but not to the backyard distillers. methinks that first world small scale eth distillers would not have this problem. a3 and a4 m. sieves are readily available to them, from what i understand. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: serious ethanol players a show on Mtv, a cartoon, two idiot friends would sit around watching music videos, or putting cockroaches in the burgers at their place of work. their primary interests were the aforementioned music videos, and sex, not that they ever stopped laughing enough to engage in sexual activity. as to my post, i was laughing like beavis at the guys name, those two beavis and butt-head would laugh at anything that could possibly be twisted in meaning to be a sexual reference. the second part, i was doing the last words of a simulated lounge performance first act. Keith Addison wrote: huh huh huh, he said dick, huh huh. thanks all, i'll be doing a few more beavis impressions later tonight, don't drink the water, the meatloaf is where they get it here at the sierra poot lounge. Um... sorry, skaar, what's that mean? you skaar me mate !!! have you checked the meth content of your 'shine lately ? (:-D From: Sam Dabbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: serious ethanol players In biofuel@egroups.com, Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote something false as hell like: and by the way, making ethanol from corn is half as efficient as making it from sugarcane. *OK, Fraid not. Here's the poop. Probable yeild from a ton of raw material based on the average fermentable sugar content(1): Material Gallons/Ton Wheat---all varieties
