RE: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Sweat.
Hello Peter, Yes, I too am inclined to do what I can to forward those who show an earnest desire to move forward in my physical location. Fortunately, my world view has the benefit of other juxtaposition-ing. Flying with eagles and crawling with lizards with all the in-betweens allows more flexibility. One family first-cousin was Secretary of the Navy and I sometimes hang out with undocumented workers. Thank you for the quote. I saved it in my files. Learning to look at the boat's movement/ progress and perils in the journey can be a life's adventure. In the late 1960's while living in Mexico, I visited with a shop owner and commented on how it could be possible to elevate her employee who was hand-scrubbing laundry. Her comment was that until this person learned to do the first chores, she was not eligible to move to the next level of competence. Noteworthy comments include that the owner brought most all of her employees up level-by-level until they gained additional skills and she also paid them accordingly. And as an employer of several dozen village people, she had a wage scale that related to ability and productivity. Many of the women made substantial wages (more than their husbands) and achieved a comfortable standard of living (greater than I allowed myself to enjoy even when I had the resources.) By the way, I just completed my most recent manuscript, Angela Lucina, a story/ biography of a friend who was born as an illegitimate child in a stick-and-mud hut in a wilderness in central Mexico. Today, she is an upper-middle-class, US citizen who donates time to assisting wayward girls. Hopefully my planned meeting with a local publisher is fruitful. It's an in-depth social study of a contemporary Pygmalion transformation. In this earthly travel, we can only do the best we can do with our available resources, talents, and creative application. Hopefully by showing how ONE person changed reality, I can stimulate understanding of exponential change. Assuming that equality dictates equal access to goods and services is naive. What IS equal is our access to an innate resource for creativity only limited by our beliefs. The story demonstrates possibilities and potential. Really it's a social comment on Mexico/ US relations as are my other novels. Well, I don't know why I felt compelled to say this except that it relates to a few recent bantering remarks with another list member and that I feel good about accomplishing another goal. As usual, I build in earth stewardship comments, yet this narrative is not so focused on saving the world, but more about attitude in elevating consciousness and happiness. Thanks for the email note. Best wishes, Peggy Hi Peggy ; I couldn't agree with you more. People busy pulling on the oars are too busy to rock the boat! I also don't forget that they don't have many options either. In some ways this is not always a bad thing. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Sweat.
Hi Peggy ; I couldn't agree with you more. I tracked down some hand powered bicycle carts I gave to some handicapped people in Cambodia, and one guy with one arm was using it to bring goods across the border for about $2 per day. Imagine 1 arm powering this arm powered bicycle cart. He was working hard but he was STRONG. I told him he is hired as soon as my other big project gets started. I sit in front of my computer and type and it shows! I always asked myself WHY a couple like Tom Cruise and Nikole Kidman can't keep it together. I mean they are both good looking, they have loads of money, yet it doesn't work. Then I see people with no money living in grass shacks with one leg and they stay together. I believe it is a lot to do with a days work. I heard a good anecdote once. It went : People busy pulling on the oars are too busy to rock the boat! I also don't forget that they don't have many options either. In some ways this is not always a bad thing. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my humble opinion, sweating and a healthy diet can cure most of what ails a person and putting in a good days work eliminates many social needs. We have all been witnessing Kim's efforts to build her family, self-sustaining farm. Many of these people have better land and excellent year-round growing conditions, but do not see a need to sweat, yet still want the government to assist in their health agenda. As a consumer, I was a bit disappointed in the good food that is so well presented in the travel logs. I love local markets and home grown food. It just wasn't to be found. To me this means that the island is losing its soul. So I offer a toast to sweat! And by-the-way, I have not missed a day of work in over thirty-five years due to illness. As a dental hygienist, I work in a sea of germs all day long--including all the wonderful microbes found in my garden. Health is more about beliefs than germs! Solution: Sweat. It's good for you. Best wishes, Peggy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Made in China?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Guag Meister Many times what people want and what is are not the same. Absolutely right, the consumer gets what they demand. The consumer gets what the consumer demands. Sorry out there but my feeling is the average consumer is not capable of intelligent choices after exposure to the mass media. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Hello Peter, Thank you for the New Years greeting and everyone else as well. I agree with your summary about choices. I just returned from one week in Puerto Rico and have many observations. As most everyone knows, Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the US--a tax haven to avoid paying taxes, but offering/ receiving incentives to placate the populace. Although their indigenous culture included waves of different native people and a more recent five-hundred-year European and African mingling, the country astounded me. It is very beautiful, but it is very poor in any form of self-sufficiency ethic. Because the forum is discussing slave labor and/or sweat-shop labor, then this artificially inflated island may serve as an example of changes via establishing a more level playing field. Ha! With 40% of the population on welfare, they also import 90% of their food stuff. Luckily the rain forests and most of the land naturally re-established thick growth that would require quite a bit of sweat or machinery to alter. The plants know how to re-grow after hurricanes and the previously abused land appears to be rapidly recovering. The re-growth is amazing in both the mountains and the mangrove swamps. The navy pulled out of Vieques (a smaller island) about five years ago and their previous base is now a nature preserve because of the pressure of the island people to regain their tranquility. All this is happening rather quickly in human years. What was really strange to me was that there is not much of an apparent available labor force--not too much sweat. And most of all, there are hardly any vegetables! When driving through the countryside, we only passed one small herd of cattle (maybe 20 cows), and two chickens, about five goats, and two hogs. This is really crazy. I pass all kinds of farm animals and natural wildlife on my way to and from work in rural Texas. Also, the largest rum factory in the world imports its sugar cane. And as I mentioned previously, fuel ethanol production from sugar cane via a cellulosic breakdown offers a renewable resource for thousands of gallons per acre annually. The potential exists. As real estate owners/ residents, it is possible for these people to have year-round growing potential and grow most anything. Most every house has room for a kitchen garden--but there are hardly any food gardens much less agricultural endeavors. The only home garden that I found was a hobby garden by a retired man. One of the ecologically-oriented guest retreats grows its own fruits (the owner is from the mid-west US). However, the natives are great fishermen! Well, the point is that the incentive to grow food is not there because the people can afford Tyson chicken, bananas, rice and beans that are all imported. The combination of these entrĀes cost anywhere from 3 to 20 dollars depending on the setting. Sandwich shops are located throughout the islands for New York, deli-style quick foods. However, they use shredded cabbage and not local produce as the usual veggie. (Cabbage keeps better--yet is not grown locally). Because I lived in Mexico and have traveled in Central America, I saw the people sweat and grow their food. And I lived in their villages and my husband provided free dental care to the indigent during vacations. (But that's another story) What I think I witnessed is that the opiate of the welfare system took away the need to sweat. Destroying the sugar-cane production rather than re-vamping the system also seems to be a bit misguided. While interviewing an editor of a newspaper for the government, I asked many questions about the people and the islands. As an official spokes person, she kept bringing up the needs of the people for health care and social services. In my humble opinion, sweating and a healthy diet can cure most of what ails a person and putting in a good days work eliminates many social needs. We have all been witnessing Kim's efforts to build her family, self-sustaining farm. Many of these people have better land and excellent year-round growing conditions, but do not see a need to sweat, yet still want the government to assist in their health agenda. As a consumer, I was a bit disappointed in the good food that is so well presented in the travel logs. I love local markets and home grown food. It just wasn't to be found. To me this means that the island is losing its soul. So I offer a toast to sweat! And by-the-way, I have not missed a day of work in over thirty-five years due to illness. As a dental hygienist, I work in a sea of germs
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Final Thoughts (long), Happy New Year, Over and Out.
Hi Keith ; --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, you've misunderstood me. I didn't say and didn't mean that you were angry. Ok Keith, never mind this very minor thing. No problem at all. Dealing with the forces that interfere with and manipulate human nature for their own ends is a much less daunting challenge, more possible, more achievable, than trying to change perceived inherent inadequacies in human nature itself. Yes true, but the forces are formidable, well organized, and clearly extend through multiple generations. Huge. They can bring down the towers in front of our eyes, kill 3,000 people, and get away with it. Sobering. Whatever happened there, they can and have done a lot worse. I don't think there's any Yes, but... Peter. Of course they're formidable and extend through multiple generations (thousands?), nothing new there. Well organised? Less so than I'd thought, it seems. They've been making more and more errors of judgment in the last few years, including some grave ones, and I've never seen that before. WE are getting stronger all the time, growing, spreading, consolidating, THEY are getting weaker, their grip is weakening, their vision and scope is not broad or deep enough to perceive the true nature of the new (yes!) threat they're facing, nor to meet it and counter it, let alone forestall it. They're dinosaurs, I've often said so. It's only a matter of time. We have plenty of parallels and examples of this blindness. For a start their arrogance and overconfidence make them blind. Why is it that, for instance, we here on this list and a few others, people with no power at all, in no way a formidable force, by all appearances without significance, the much derided and sneered at grass-roots sector, if you can even call it a sector, of the biodiesel industry, which includes some mighty names, can do these three things? 1. We consistently make better fuel than the big guys do. NOT a myth - the myth is that they make good fuel and we can't. Look what Rob Del Bueno said about it a few days ago: Funny thing about the commercially manufactured biodiesel... One of the big arguments against backyard biodiesel (from industry folks) is quality, yet every batch that I have made, and every batch I have seen by a homebrew biodiesel maker has been much better than the fuel I am reselling. http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20041227/004126.html [Biofuel] New Car That is widely corroborated, from other sources and by events on both sides of the Atlantic (and in Japan). See, for instance: http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20041213/003725.html [Biofuel] Newbie Question: TDI and homemade fuel Do they take it in, learn anything, improve their practices, try to develop a different relationship with us instead of slagging us all the time, try to adapt in any way? No. They continue in denial. 2. Without any resources or megabuck PR budgets, fancy agencies in Madison Avenue, Rolexes, Armanis or long lunches, we consistently do a better and more effective job than they do of promoting biodiesel and educating the public about it. They've admitted this and it's demonstrably true. They succeed somewhat in promoting it at the business and industry level - on the Business pages - while we get feature stories on front pages. And much besides. 3. The world over, in many countries, in the last five years, we've made and used MILLIONS of gallons of biodiesel and failed to put MILLIONS of dollars in the coffers of governments and the petroleum corporations. We sail right under their radar, and they still haven't figured it out. It's too late to stop us now, even though they'll no doubt get round to trying, sooner or later. They've got about as much chance as the Prohibition did. Just a drop in the ocean, our millions of gallons? Yes, if you want to compare it with overall consumption and incomes, which is what they'll do, and thus fail to see until it's too late that it's not just a drop in the ocean, it's a rapidly widening crack in their concrete. Another picture - how is it that most any schoolkid can make a better and more effective, more influential, website on green issues, say, than a massive auto manufacturer can? (What?? No Flash banner page??? Bad design, hmphh - he's got absolutely no excuse for getting 10 times more hits than we do.) How is it that sinister and sleazy tactics like those of Monsanto via the Bivings group to insinuate corporate trolls into Internet discussion groups get rumbled and backfire on them? Yes, they have a strategy for this, and huge budgets to back it, they hold business seminars on it, but it doesn't work. (Do an achive search for Bivings.) I could go on and on. Okay okay, so I DO go on and on, right? LOL! Nor will you find me labelling people as negative when they have the courage to admit the existence of dark realities rather than pretend about
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi Walt ; Within living memory, China has taken economic steps which resulted in the deaths of millions of their own citizens; I therefore conclude that they wouldn't blush at taking steps which diminished the quality of life for Americans or Japanese. Quite true. I am not a historian, but apparently the Cambodian fiasco was financed and conducted with Chinese management and military resources. It appeared to be an experiment. Poeple were driven from their homes and all money was destroyed. Since it failed so badly, one of two things is possible. One, the Chinese have abandoned the ideology, or two, they have analyzed what went wrong so they can try again somewhere else. Let's all hope it is number one. Before CS goes ballistic, let me also say that the US as well as almost every other nation has colonized foreign countires too, sometimes violently (eg. Iraq). Let's all hope they too analyze what went wrong and don't try again somewhere else (Iran). I'm happy that CS trusts the Chinese government and it's intentions. I don't. Heck, I don't trust the intentions of the US government, or the French government, or the German government (I trust you get the pattern here). Absolutely right. My position would be that the folks in charge in China are not fools, and neither are they stooges for Wal-Mart. My guess is that they have a plan to convert the US into a colony exporting food and raw materials to China; I could be wrong, but that's the way the future looks to me. In interesting possibility. If it did turn out that way, it would only be because the US followed economic policies which allowed it to happen. This is looking more and more likely. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Walt, Do not worry, I do not think that China (or any other country) see US as a major source of food for humans. It is almost unconceivable that they would go to such efforts to secure corn supply for their own poultry production. LOL Hakan At 07:40 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote: At 09:23 AM 12/30/2004, robert wrote: Walt Patrick wrote: That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Wouldn't that strategy be detrimental to the Chinese? Would it be wise to make such a tremendous investment only to watch its value evaporate? What of the Chinese economy in that case? The Chinese are clever people. (There are, in fact, clever people all over the world.) Why would they seek the demise of their largest market? I absolutely agree that the Chinese are clever people. I would also add that I believe they're deadly serious about what they're doing. CS would evidently have us believe that the Chinese didn't understand what they were doing when they devalued their currency and then pegged it to the dollar. Perhaps, but I don't buy it. I think they had a plan and were acting in accordance with that plan. I may not know what their plan was, but I'm confident that they acted reasonably and in accordance with their traditions and world view. Politics at that level is a multi-track affair, and some of the tracks contradict other tracks. For example, one might was well ask why the US, or Russia, or China would build nuclear arsenals capable of blowing their customers back into the Stone Age? Destroying one's customers is obviously not good for business, but there are certain geopolitical advantages to be had from possessing the ability to do that. Just as there are advantages to be gained from _being able_ to nuke the other side's economy, which you'll please note, is a different thing from actually doing it. Within living memory, China has taken economic steps which resulted in the deaths of millions of their own citizens; I therefore conclude that they wouldn't blush at taking steps which diminished the quality of life for Americans or Japanese. For example, their ability to throw the US economy into a tailspin by dumping dollars makes for an interesting non-nuclear option for them to threaten deploy when they decide to resolve the Taiwan problem. I'm happy that CS trusts the Chinese government and it's intentions. I don't. Heck, I don't trust the intentions of the US government, or the French government, or the German government (I trust you get the pattern here). About the best I can hope for is that they are acting in their reasonable self interest - i.e. that the folks in charge are not fools. My position would be that the folks in charge in China are not fools, and neither are they stooges for Wal-Mart. My guess is that they have a plan to convert the US into a colony exporting food and raw materials to China; I could be wrong, but that's the way the future looks to me. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Do not worry, I do not think that China (or any other country) see US as a major source of food for humans. It is almost unconceivable that they would go to such efforts to secure corn supply for their own poultry production. LOL I live in an agricultural county in the Pacific Northwest, and there's little doubt around here that China is a major buyer of local products, and the focus isn't on corn, it's on wheat. Those who argue for the food colony concept note that there has been a sizable movement of people away from rural farms towards factory jobs in China, and that with internal food production falling, it's inevitable that China will be importing more food in the future. And while the Chinese population is increasing, it's arable land isn't. And it's not just the US alone; the recent spate of Chinese purchases in Canada is signaling an increase in the utilization of North America as a source for raw materials for Chinese industry. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Peter, You live closer to it, but I have large difficulties to see that China was behind the Cambodian Pol Pot philosophies. It was in its essence an onslaught on education and knowledge, something that is very difficult to identify with the policies of China. China have during the last 50 years had a very active support of education and knowledge. They have gone to extremes to build a solid base of professionals in all sciences. I have seen and experienced this, since the early 1960's, in their student programs for foreign studies and their willingness to send students to other countries. Hakan At 02:05 AM 12/31/2004, you wrote: Hi Walt ; Within living memory, China has taken economic steps which resulted in the deaths of millions of their own citizens; I therefore conclude that they wouldn't blush at taking steps which diminished the quality of life for Americans or Japanese. Quite true. I am not a historian, but apparently the Cambodian fiasco was financed and conducted with Chinese management and military resources. It appeared to be an experiment. Poeple were driven from their homes and all money was destroyed. Since it failed so badly, one of two things is possible. One, the Chinese have abandoned the ideology, or two, they have analyzed what went wrong so they can try again somewhere else. Let's all hope it is number one. Before CS goes ballistic, let me also say that the US as well as almost every other nation has colonized foreign countires too, sometimes violently (eg. Iraq). Let's all hope they too analyze what went wrong and don't try again somewhere else (Iran). I'm happy that CS trusts the Chinese government and it's intentions. I don't. Heck, I don't trust the intentions of the US government, or the French government, or the German government (I trust you get the pattern here). Absolutely right. My position would be that the folks in charge in China are not fools, and neither are they stooges for Wal-Mart. My guess is that they have a plan to convert the US into a colony exporting food and raw materials to China; I could be wrong, but that's the way the future looks to me. In interesting possibility. If it did turn out that way, it would only be because the US followed economic policies which allowed it to happen. This is looking more and more likely. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Cambodia.
Hi Hakan ; I admit that I don't really know the whole story, so anyone please feel free to correct me. I have many Khmer friends, and I discuss this with them often. From what I understand there were weekly flights to Beijing for supplies and military strategists. However (CS), this was only after a decade of secret bombing by the US had smashed the country and killed countless people.. Pol Pot And Kissinger - On war criminality and impunity http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/hermansept97.htm and The death of Pol Pot http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/apr1998/plpt-a18.shtml It was here that Pol Pot, heavily influenced by the Chinese Stalinists, devised the political perspective of what was to become the Khmer Rouge--an extreme form of Mao Zedong's eclectic mixture of Stalinism, nationalism and peasant radicalism. It is characteristic of the ideological falsification produced by Stalinism that the label of Marxism has been placed upon social and political phenomena which have nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of Marx, Engels or Lenin. Classical Marxism envisioned a new society, democratically controlled by the working class, which would take as its point of departure the highest level of the productive forces developed under capitalism. This presupposed the widest possible scope for the development of industry, science and technique, all of them bound up with the growth of cities, the urban proletariat and the cultural life of the population as a whole. No more grotesque distortion can be imagined than to categorize as Marxist the ideas of Pol Pot and his cohorts. As early as the 1950s Khieu Samphan, Pol Pot's closest aide, had outlined a perspective of creating a primitive peasant-based society in which money, culture and all other facets of urban life would be abolished. and http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/polpot2.html The Khmer Rouge regime reached a climax in September 1977 when Pol Pot took to the airwaves and spoke for nearly five hours on Cambodian radio. For the first time, Pol Pot acknowledged to the world that Cambodia was now run by a communist government. The day after the speech he flew to Beijing to meet with Hua Guofeng, who had just become leader of the People's Republic of China following the death of Mao Ze Dong. The Chinese pledged to support the Khmer Rouge's rivalry with the Vietnamese but recommended against all-out war, knowing full well that Vietnam was in a much better position to win the fight. The meeting probably delayed an impending Cambodian assault on Vietnam, but the Vietnamese interpreted it as another sign of China's military support of an increasingly dangerous Cambodia. I guess this validates what we have all been saying. The average American wouldn't support secret bombing of Cambodia, yet there was secret bombing. The average Chinese wouldn't support Pol Port, yet there was Pol Pot. It is the shysters at the top that seem to screw things up for everybody. Will the average person ever see? I still have hope. Best Regards and Happy New Year!!, Peter G. Thailand --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, You live closer to it, but I have large difficulties to see that China was behind the Cambodian Pol Pot philosophies. It was in its essence an onslaught on education and knowledge, something that is very difficult to identify with the policies of China. China have during the last 50 years had a very active support of education and knowledge. They have gone to extremes to build a solid base of professionals in all sciences. I have seen and experienced this, since the early 1960's, in their student programs for foreign studies and their willingness to send students to other countries. Hakan __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Yes, China is the biggest buyer of USA wheat and Soyabean. Soybean is good source of biodiesel, so USA must be careful not to sell out to China. Tell it to the Soya Bean lobby or farmers? FYI, Brazil is just about to replace USA as the biggest supplier of soyabean. Cool comfort for USA. Argentina also signed a US$60 billion deal with China 2 weeks ago. also on agricultural investments to ensure long term supply of food crops. China is also the biggest buyer of Canadian wheat. In 1973, China got hit by famine caused by the Red Guard Revolution. Estimated 10 million died. Then China's population is only half that of today. Yes, there will be no more famine in China with huge strides made in agriculture sciences but China still import about 10 to 20 million ton food crop annually. A good year harvest would overcome the deficit, so importing is still an option. One thing I can say, the American farmers still need the Chinese buyers of wheat and soya but if the likes of Walt look at sales to China as a traiterous act, then he will have to have his head examined. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 05:16 PM 12/30/2004, Hakan wrote: Do not worry, I do not think that China (or any other country) see US as a major source of food for humans. It is almost unconceivable that they would go to such efforts to secure corn supply for their own poultry production. LOL I live in an agricultural county in the Pacific Northwest, and there's little doubt around here that China is a major buyer of local products, and the focus isn't on corn, it's on wheat. Those who argue for the food colony concept note that there has been a sizable movement of people away from rural farms towards factory jobs in China, and that with internal food production falling, it's inevitable that China will be importing more food in the future. And while the Chinese population is increasing, it's arable land isn't. And it's not just the US alone; the recent spate of Chinese purchases in Canada is signaling an increase in the utilization of North America as a source for raw materials for Chinese industry. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Cambodia.
Sideshow - Nixon, Kissinger and the Secret Bombing of Cambodia, by William Shawcross, is an excellent source. In Sideshow, journalist Shawcross presents the first full-scale investigation of the secret and illegal war the United States fought with Cambodia from 1969 to 1973, paving the way for the Khmer Rouge massacres of the mid-70s. 467 pages, Simon Schuster (May 15, 1979), ISBN: 0671230700 The Chinese pledged to support the Khmer Rouge's rivalry with the Vietnamese but recommended against all-out war, knowing full well that Vietnam was in a much better position to win the fight. The meeting probably delayed an impending Cambodian assault on Vietnam, but the Vietnamese interpreted it as another sign of China's military support of an increasingly dangerous Cambodia. My enemy's enemy is my friend. Truly a morally bankrupt policy, and (thus?) a major plank in world realpolitik. There's no need to have any ideology or philosophy or anything else in common other than a shared enmity. For another view of China, try Fanshen - A Documentary of Revolution in a Chinese Village by William Hinton. On his return to the US Hinton's copious notes and documentation for the book were impounded for 18 years, by the US Customs and then by Senator Eastland's Committee on Internal Security. This is an extraordinary book, there's nothing else quite like it. Highly recommended by Joseph Needham and many others. 637 pages, Monthly Review Press (1966), ASIN: B0006DEZZW Best wishes Keith Hi Hakan ; I admit that I don't really know the whole story, so anyone please feel free to correct me. I have many Khmer friends, and I discuss this with them often. From what I understand there were weekly flights to Beijing for supplies and military strategists. However (CS), this was only after a decade of secret bombing by the US had smashed the country and killed countless people.. Pol Pot And Kissinger - On war criminality and impunity http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/hermansept97.htm and The death of Pol Pot http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/apr1998/plpt-a18.shtml It was here that Pol Pot, heavily influenced by the Chinese Stalinists, devised the political perspective of what was to become the Khmer Rouge--an extreme form of Mao Zedong's eclectic mixture of Stalinism, nationalism and peasant radicalism. It is characteristic of the ideological falsification produced by Stalinism that the label of Marxism has been placed upon social and political phenomena which have nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of Marx, Engels or Lenin. Classical Marxism envisioned a new society, democratically controlled by the working class, which would take as its point of departure the highest level of the productive forces developed under capitalism. This presupposed the widest possible scope for the development of industry, science and technique, all of them bound up with the growth of cities, the urban proletariat and the cultural life of the population as a whole. No more grotesque distortion can be imagined than to categorize as Marxist the ideas of Pol Pot and his cohorts. As early as the 1950s Khieu Samphan, Pol Pot's closest aide, had outlined a perspective of creating a primitive peasant-based society in which money, culture and all other facets of urban life would be abolished. and http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/polpot2.html The Khmer Rouge regime reached a climax in September 1977 when Pol Pot took to the airwaves and spoke for nearly five hours on Cambodian radio. For the first time, Pol Pot acknowledged to the world that Cambodia was now run by a communist government. The day after the speech he flew to Beijing to meet with Hua Guofeng, who had just become leader of the People's Republic of China following the death of Mao Ze Dong. The Chinese pledged to support the Khmer Rouge's rivalry with the Vietnamese but recommended against all-out war, knowing full well that Vietnam was in a much better position to win the fight. The meeting probably delayed an impending Cambodian assault on Vietnam, but the Vietnamese interpreted it as another sign of China's military support of an increasingly dangerous Cambodia. I guess this validates what we have all been saying. The average American wouldn't support secret bombing of Cambodia, yet there was secret bombing. The average Chinese wouldn't support Pol Port, yet there was Pol Pot. It is the shysters at the top that seem to screw things up for everybody. Will the average person ever see? I still have hope. Best Regards and Happy New Year!!, Peter G. Thailand --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, You live closer to it, but I have large difficulties to see that China was behind the Cambodian Pol Pot philosophies. It was in its essence an onslaught on education and knowledge, something that is very difficult to identify with the policies of China. China have during the last 50 years had a very active support of education and
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Cambodia.
Peter, It is no doubt that Pol Pot was supported by the Chinese, but you said in your original email that China was behind the Pol Pot experiment and that it was some sort of experiment on their behalf. In this sense I have my doubts on that the equal sign is a valid one. Therefore I also have my doubts on that we will see any Pol Pot style regime in China, or a renewed consciousness support of such a regime anywhere else, which you envisioned. I belive that Pol Pot was a Cambodian home cooked lunatic, that for global and regional reasons had the Chinese support. This without any awareness of the consequences of the Pol Pot ideas. Who could ever belive that he was a screwed up lunatic and not a politician that only preached for the masses. A mistake that both the world and the German industrialists did with Hitler. A kind of mistake that also US have done many times in supporting some South American dictators. It does not excuse China from responsibility, or US, or Russia. We have many examples of how the major powers are tinkering with leaders of countries and belive that they can control situations that in the end are not controllable. We have some more recent examples of this in Afghanistan and Iraq. I belive that we will continue to experience this kind of tinkering and bad judgement from the larger players in the world. The incompetence and naive thought processes will continue to be amazing. We will also continue to be amazed, when we finally realize that the lunatics have very simple and basic ideological beliefs and they all the time have been honest about them. The mistake is that we belive that they were smarter than that and possessed some sort of intelligence, beyond their obvious talent of creating enthusiasm among the masses. Hakan At 04:11 AM 12/31/2004, you wrote: Hi Hakan ; I admit that I don't really know the whole story, so anyone please feel free to correct me. I have many Khmer friends, and I discuss this with them often. From what I understand there were weekly flights to Beijing for supplies and military strategists. However (CS), this was only after a decade of secret bombing by the US had smashed the country and killed countless people.. Pol Pot And Kissinger - On war criminality and impunity http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/hermansept97.htm and The death of Pol Pot http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/apr1998/plpt-a18.shtml It was here that Pol Pot, heavily influenced by the Chinese Stalinists, devised the political perspective of what was to become the Khmer Rouge--an extreme form of Mao Zedong's eclectic mixture of Stalinism, nationalism and peasant radicalism. It is characteristic of the ideological falsification produced by Stalinism that the label of Marxism has been placed upon social and political phenomena which have nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of Marx, Engels or Lenin. Classical Marxism envisioned a new society, democratically controlled by the working class, which would take as its point of departure the highest level of the productive forces developed under capitalism. This presupposed the widest possible scope for the development of industry, science and technique, all of them bound up with the growth of cities, the urban proletariat and the cultural life of the population as a whole. No more grotesque distortion can be imagined than to categorize as Marxist the ideas of Pol Pot and his cohorts. As early as the 1950s Khieu Samphan, Pol Pot's closest aide, had outlined a perspective of creating a primitive peasant-based society in which money, culture and all other facets of urban life would be abolished. and http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/polpot2.html The Khmer Rouge regime reached a climax in September 1977 when Pol Pot took to the airwaves and spoke for nearly five hours on Cambodian radio. For the first time, Pol Pot acknowledged to the world that Cambodia was now run by a communist government. The day after the speech he flew to Beijing to meet with Hua Guofeng, who had just become leader of the People's Republic of China following the death of Mao Ze Dong. The Chinese pledged to support the Khmer Rouge's rivalry with the Vietnamese but recommended against all-out war, knowing full well that Vietnam was in a much better position to win the fight. The meeting probably delayed an impending Cambodian assault on Vietnam, but the Vietnamese interpreted it as another sign of China's military support of an increasingly dangerous Cambodia. I guess this validates what we have all been saying. The average American wouldn't support secret bombing of Cambodia, yet there was secret bombing. The average Chinese wouldn't support Pol Port, yet there was Pol Pot. It is the shysters at the top that seem to screw things up for everybody. Will the average person ever see? I still have hope. Best Regards and Happy New Year!!, Peter G. Thailand --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, You live closer to it, but I have large
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Cambodia.
Hi Hakan ; --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I belive that Pol Pot was a Cambodian home cooked lunatic, that for global and regional reasons had the Chinese support. Yes you may very well be right. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Final Thoughts (long), Happy New Year, Over and Out.
Hello Keith and All ; Keith wrote : You really should check this out, IMHO, there's no need to be so pessimistic, and I don't think it's your nature. I wouldn't say I was pessimistic, but I agree it may appear that way. I've been there, I was angry for years, angry about all the callous injustice in the world. Indeed I had so much to be angry about, I was encountering it face to face all the time in my work. Angry is not a word that I would use to describe myself, but I agree in a short post, it may seem that way. Sadly frustrated is more like it. My faith gives me an unusual perspective on this. An analogy for you. I was always good in school without trying too hard. I view adversity in life as like a school test. A good student likes hard tests. It is the only way to differentiate the class after all. Only a poor student likes easy tests. If the test is easy, everyone passes and looks the same. A statistically relevant test must be hard enough that some students fail, and it gives the opportunity for the bright students to shine. Without hard tests there would be no bright students. I always liked the hard tests. Jesus came bearing the staggering gift of eternal life to give to the people of Israel and they beat Him, hung Him on a cross, and killed Him. Talk about being wronged, and hanging there has GOT to hurt, but Jesus did not complain in the face of the most overwhelming wrong anyone could ever imagine right to the end. So I don't look at callous injustice or anything else as causes for anger or revenge. Instead, I view adversity and callous injustice as opportunities to demonstrate how close I can follow the infinitely high standard that Jesus set. When adversity comes my way, I thank Jesus for the opportunity to practise this. The more adversity the more it give me an opportunity. It is not easy and I am not successful many times. But, it's the wrong approach. I stopped being angry about 15 years ago. The sources of the anger remain, or in many (but not all) cases have increased, I don't pretend about it, I do confront it, I don't have any time for rose-tinted specs, and, truth to tell, I still do get angry sometimes, but it's short-lived, and it doesn't colour my vision. You are making some very good points, but I think I have come to terms in my own way, so I feel I need to explain my motivation a little more thoroughly. I think it is significantly different that you expect. There was a movie I saw once, possibly the name was The Dead Zone. I can't remember. It was about this guy who could see your future by touching your hand. He touches the hand of a politician elect, and in a vision he sees that in the future this politician will become president and launch nuclear missiles. So he ponders this difficult question and determines to assinate the politician and spend the rest of his life in jail rather than let the world fall into nuclear war. Someone out there may remember this movie. Anyway, in the movie he touched the hand his young son and he saw that his son would go ice skating later in the day, but the ice would break and he would fall into the icy water and drown. So of course he didn't let his son go ice skating. Now a nice, well meaning neighbor came over with her son and they were going ice skating. He touched the hand of the neighbor's son and once again he saw the ice breaking. He tried to convince this very nice bubbly neighbor that the ice would break, but the neighbor told him every reason why it wouldn't break, ie. it is too early in the spring season for thaw, the ice is thick, everyone is skating, etc. No matter what he said the neighbor was not convinced that the ice would break. Finally he smashed his cane on the table and screamed at the top of his lungs THE ICE IS GONNA BREAK!!. (You're being so negative!) That's a lot like how I feel. The ice is gonna break. Keith wrote : Washington and Beijing (and the WTO) notwithstanding, there's much more common cause between the *people* of the US and the *people* of China than there's cause for distrust, rivalry and enmity. Yes, agreed, but the question remains whether this common cause is enough. It hasn't been in the past. The powers sometimes self inflict damage to get everybody riled up. Once everyone is riled up and the war drums beating, anything is possible. Therefore as humans we must ignore what someone appears to have done to someone else or even us if we want to defeat this strategy. It will not be easy to make this change. Keith wrote : We ordinary people, Gustl's common people, will win this age-old game in the end, it's our destiny. Absolutely, ABSOLUTELY correct, but its going to be one heck of a roller coaster ride until then. Keith wrote : As for trouble being inevitable, I don't agree with that either, regardless of what the intentions might be (on both sides). An article titled Slowly but steadily, India will overtake
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Final Thoughts (long), Happy New Year, Over and Out.
Hi All ; Opps. Sorry if I forgot anybody (Walt). Happy New Year to you all!! Peter G. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Final Thoughts (long), Happy New Year, Over and Out.
were angry. I was angry, I said you were pessimistic, and that indeed you have been, or sadly frustrated, if you prefer. Check the quotes I included. You despair of human goodwill and of the human capacity to learn much-needed lessons, yet in another post you include in this the critical factor of mass-manipulation - if you'd added that to your original sum it would have come out different, less pessimistic about human nature and abilities or not at all pessimistic. Dealing with the forces that interfere with and manipulate human nature for their own ends is a much less daunting challenge, more possible, more achievable, than trying to change perceived inherent inadequacies in human nature itself. Rather than a need to change people beyond their capacities, maybe all that's needed is to leave them alone and let them get on with it without interference. I compared your pessimism to the anger I'd felt for many years, because it seems to me the two are comparable in their contexts. I could find a resolution of that, and you can resolve this. There's no contradiction between realism and optimism. Nor will you find me labelling people as negative when they have the courage to admit the existence of dark realities rather than pretend about it - I said that. But there are better ways of dealing with it, denial NOT included! (I think we mentioned the Titanic previously, didn't we? We certainly agreed about that.) Also, in both there being trouble ahead and in the changes needed for betterment,there absolutely have to be many unforeseen factors that you're not calculating for, nor can you calculate for them. But they're not likely to be significant because the major factors at play are so clearcut and decisive, the die is cast? But with complexities such as these with their infinities of variables, it's quite impossible to predict which factors, whether massive or imperceptible, will initiate change. Social change doesn't need critical threshold levels of people to act before it can happen, maybe it only needs one person to plant the right seed in the right place at the right time and in the right way, perhaps even by accident, without any knowledge of what they're doing nor any such intention, and nobody will ever know what caused it, least of all that person. Needed change happens via a creative minority, not by agreement of the majority. Creative acts do not necessarily follow a logical progression that can easily be predicted. Meanwhile we can all do what we can do and keep trying to do it better. Keith wrote : Washington and Beijing (and the WTO) notwithstanding, there's much more common cause between the *people* of the US and the *people* of China than there's cause for distrust, rivalry and enmity. Yes, agreed, but the question remains whether this common cause is enough. It hasn't been in the past. It was so easy to smash it, if you just happened to control all the resources and all the power. That has almost certainly changed, as Gustl hinted. Now we have a situation where five ordinary folks with a couple of computers and a telephone could bring the mighty Monsanto to its knees. There's something new under the sun, for a change. Just one battle, it's true (and they warned of that), but not the only one, and instead of being nullified and swept aside as before, there's a powerful multiplier effect at work - it spreads like a fire, and there's no way of stopping it. Even the mainstream US press has referred to the Other Superpower: There may still be two superpowers on the planet: the United States and world public opinion. - The New York Times http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030414s=schell The Nation | Article | The Other Superpower | Jonathan Schell March 27, 2003 Keith wrote : We ordinary people, Gustl's common people, will win this age-old game in the end, it's our destiny. Absolutely, ABSOLUTELY correct, but its going to be one heck of a roller coaster ride until then. It's seldom been anything else. There've been worse times, and better. After all, this is what our history is all about, the problem of power. No progress? A HUGE amount of progress, it's a story of progress, always overcoming the constant setbacks that beset us at every turn. We lose all the battles yet we never stop advancing and gaining ground, and we will most definitely win the war. Did you ever read this? http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32840/ Re: [biofuel] The Oil we eat (Harper's) The original article is here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/31846/1/ Keith, of the list participants you are the first time zone for the new year, so I would like to say HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and Midori first, Thankyou Peter! But is that right? How does Bob rate? Is it tomorrow yet Bob? Anyway Peter you're not far behind. and then to all list particpants as the earth spins around its axis at around 1,000 mph and hurtles through space
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Cambodia.
Hakan and Guag, What we in Singapore know about Cambodia is only write up by Cambodian refugees and King Norodom Sihanouk. When the Killing Fields was aired, everyone was outraged and enraged. Subsequently the local news carried more news about later developments. By then more than 2 million innocent Cambodians were slaughtered with the skulls stacked in temple and shown on TV. Subsequently there were news about Vietnamese capturing Cambodia. Pol Pot and Khieu Samphan fled into the China. King Sihanouk all these while was sick and being treated in Beijing and was powerless. We were aware that Pol Pot army were armed by the Chinese and Russians. Finally we read that China had enough and told Vietnam to get out of Cambodia or faced the wrath of the Chinese Army. The Chinese moved a Division of their crack Szechuan unit across Vietnam's border and Vietnam immediately moved out of Cambodia and Hun Sen was allowed to take over Cambodia. What happened to 2 million Cambodian innocently killed by a lunatic Pol Pot was certainly beyond comprehension? Killing Adolf Hitler would not bring back millions of innocent Jews. The hanging of General Tojo would not bring back the 20 million Chinese killed by the Japanese Army who claimed he was acting under orders of the Japanese Emperor. Some people trying to blame the Chinese Government for the Killing Fields in Cambodia, certainly has no leg to stand on. Moral - We must not let any lunatic run a country. Bush thought Saddam was lunatic so he moved in. CS - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Cambodia. Hi Hakan ; I admit that I don't really know the whole story, so anyone please feel free to correct me. I have many Khmer friends, and I discuss this with them often. From what I understand there were weekly flights to Beijing for supplies and military strategists. However (CS), this was only after a decade of secret bombing by the US had smashed the country and killed countless people.. Pol Pot And Kissinger - On war criminality and impunity http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/hermansept97.htm and The death of Pol Pot http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/apr1998/plpt-a18.shtml It was here that Pol Pot, heavily influenced by the Chinese Stalinists, devised the political perspective of what was to become the Khmer Rouge--an extreme form of Mao Zedong's eclectic mixture of Stalinism, nationalism and peasant radicalism. It is characteristic of the ideological falsification produced by Stalinism that the label of Marxism has been placed upon social and political phenomena which have nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of Marx, Engels or Lenin. Classical Marxism envisioned a new society, democratically controlled by the working class, which would take as its point of departure the highest level of the productive forces developed under capitalism. This presupposed the widest possible scope for the development of industry, science and technique, all of them bound up with the growth of cities, the urban proletariat and the cultural life of the population as a whole. No more grotesque distortion can be imagined than to categorize as Marxist the ideas of Pol Pot and his cohorts. As early as the 1950s Khieu Samphan, Pol Pot's closest aide, had outlined a perspective of creating a primitive peasant-based society in which money, culture and all other facets of urban life would be abolished. and http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/polpot2.html The Khmer Rouge regime reached a climax in September 1977 when Pol Pot took to the airwaves and spoke for nearly five hours on Cambodian radio. For the first time, Pol Pot acknowledged to the world that Cambodia was now run by a communist government. The day after the speech he flew to Beijing to meet with Hua Guofeng, who had just become leader of the People's Republic of China following the death of Mao Ze Dong. The Chinese pledged to support the Khmer Rouge's rivalry with the Vietnamese but recommended against all-out war, knowing full well that Vietnam was in a much better position to win the fight. The meeting probably delayed an impending Cambodian assault on Vietnam, but the Vietnamese interpreted it as another sign of China's military support of an increasingly dangerous Cambodia. I guess this validates what we have all been saying. The average American wouldn't support secret bombing of Cambodia, yet there was secret bombing. The average Chinese wouldn't support Pol Port, yet there was Pol Pot. It is the shysters at the top that seem to screw things up for everybody. Will the average person ever see? I still have hope. Best Regards
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Final Thoughts (long), Happy New Year, Over and Out.
Hi Keith ; --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, you've misunderstood me. I didn't say and didn't mean that you were angry. Ok Keith, never mind this very minor thing. No problem at all. Dealing with the forces that interfere with and manipulate human nature for their own ends is a much less daunting challenge, more possible, more achievable, than trying to change perceived inherent inadequacies in human nature itself. Yes true, but the forces are formidable, well organized, and clearly extend through multiple generations. Huge. They can bring down the towers in front of our eyes, kill 3,000 people, and get away with it. Sobering. Nor will you find me labelling people as negative when they have the courage to admit the existence of dark realities rather than pretend about it - I said that. But there are better ways of dealing with it, denial NOT included! (I think we mentioned the Titanic previously, didn't we? We certainly agreed about that.) I didn't mean to direct this at you at all. I joke like this with my friend many times when they raise legitimate concerns about my high flying plans. No problem at all again. LOL. Also, in both there being trouble ahead and in the changes needed for betterment,there absolutely have to be many unforeseen factors that you're not calculating for, nor can you calculate for them. Yes true. It was so easy to smash it, if you just happened to control all the resources and all the power. That has almost certainly changed, as Gustl hinted. Now we have a situation where five ordinary folks with a couple of computers and a telephone could bring the mighty Monsanto to its knees. There's something new under the sun, for a change. Just one battle, it's true (and they warned of that), but not the only one, and instead of being nullified and swept aside as before, there's a powerful multiplier effect at work - it spreads like a fire, and there's no way of stopping it. Even the mainstream US press has referred to the Other Superpower: Yes this effort to rein in Monsanto is outstanding and commendable. But I think we need to just agree to differ on this point. My humble opinion on this is that our opponents are not stupid, in fact they are brilliant strategists, the best there ever was or ever will be, and some small victories for our cause can be expected. But GM crops are still flooding the market and it is only the beginning. Eventually the patent enforcement that you see now will become widespread. Their plan is not static and they will act quickly to eliminate the internet threat. Internet censorship is already a reality and I expect it to get a lot worse. How? The great game of Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. One example. Right now there are criminals in jail on death row who have fan club followings over the internet where they describe their murders in great detail. This is understandably painful for the victims families so they are clamoring to have prisoners barred from internet access. Many convicts, particularly internet fraud cases, are already barred from using the internet. Don't people realize that this power will eventually be used against you and me? It surely will. My strategy is work diligently and never miss a chance to make change for the better, hope for the best, and plan for the worst. This is not suitable for everyone. Did you ever read this? http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32840/ Re: [biofuel] The Oil we eat (Harper's) Yes I am quite very enthusiastic about integrated agriculture for my project. I visited with Dr. Preston of UTA a few years ago in Cambodia about attending some training classes and hiring some of his graduates. I still plan on doing this. Hey I forgot Gustl and Peggy - Happy New Year to you both!! Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hello Brian, Please forgive my delay in responding to your request. For reason unknown too me my server delivers some emails with what I consider to be regular speed, while others arrive in their own good time. Yours happened to be one of the latter this time, which is the reason for the delay. Regarding your request, I will certainly do as you ask. I originally transcribed that particular quote onto a notepad while watching a show entitled world music on Link TV. It was quoted by their VJ, or DJ, which ever you prefer. Anyway, she gave a brief story regarding how this quote came to life, and if memory serves, also mentioned it's inclusion in a newspaper article. So my hope is this will make a search much simpler. Again, my apologies for the delay. AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Mike, Out of curiosity, do you have a reference for the Mark Twain quote that you use in your signature? The current Reader's Digest attributes it to Tom Clancy, and I thought that they needed to be corrected. Brian Hey cs, Why so angry? No need to get nasty. Your early points have already received backing, personally, I see no attacks on you. Argue your point to your satisfaction if that is your desire, but I see no reason to include comments that could even remotely be construed as spiteful. I am getting a real sense now of just how deep distrust, and even hatred of Americans runs in the world, not just here, although I do sense it here. It's a shame really. AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * - Original Message - From: csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? If you doesn't know the facts, then u should ask your Congressman why the Bush OK the takeover of Global Crossing by Singapore Telemedia? If you do not know Li Ka Shing, then u should ask Hongkong Shanghai Bank bosses in UK or the people of HK. If u wish to blame China for America's accumulated trade problems, asked Madeline Albright if China has taken advantage of USA. Ask her if she agreed that Chinese consumer products has indeed bought about reduced inflation for USA. Bash China for all u can but find a real good reason for doing so. If USA media can be trusted, Americans would be a happier lot but there are so much bullshit being written for real like Jon Dougherty from WorldnetDaily. (Eventually he was exposed as writing for a famous American entreprenuer who wanted to have Global Crossing for nothing so they hit onto this nationalistic fervour but Bush turn it down) My advice is for him to join Hollywood as a script writer so that more bullshit can be captured on screen. Walt, catch up with your reading. The 2002 article is already outdated. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 07:25 PM 12/29/2004, CS Chua wrote: Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Walt, It seems that China learned fast, from a game that US used to be quite good at and still is. You only have to look at the post WWII economic and corporate policies by US, which was based on utilizing a firm US control of global oil resources. Things are changing and US have not yet discovered that the key to the future must be a very high degree of energy efficiency. US have for some decades now, tried to base their economic position on a service economy instead of industrial production. This incudes high protection of intellectual properties, innovations, etc. One of the problems in this, is that US in reality never have been very strong on innovations. We will see if this policies can maintain a strong US position. Hakan At 07:29 PM 12/29/2004, you wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Peter, I think that China handled themselves on this occasion. After all, US was spying on them and it is other occasions. When US used commercial aircraft against Russia, when they disappeared with passengers and all. Do not forget that China also lost a plane and pilot, when they tried to take the spy plane down. Maybe the question should be, is US a friend of China? Hakan At 02:51 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Hutchinson Whampoa owns the trans atlantic port facility and several port facilities around the world. In fact they are the biggest private port operator in the world. Headed by Li Ka Shing, the richest self made Chinaman alive and headquartered in HK, does not make him part of China. He is a capitalist, more capitalist than most Americans. Global Crossing was acquired by Singapore Telemedia, owned by the Singapore Technology Group, listed in Singapore and majority owned by the Singapore Government. Singapore is not part of China. Please check your geography. On the other side of the coin, almost 90% of shoes sold in USA, came from China. China only get US$1.00 to US$2.00 per shoe manufacturing shoes for Americans. This amount pays for the Chinese labour, use of the factory and land, electricity and small amount of raw material. Most of the origianl material came from the USA OEM who contarct manufactured shoes like Nike, Reebok, Kimberly Clark and hundereds of others. Are you saying that China rob Americans of the jobs that there are not so keen to do? Do you realise that China is actually reducing inflation for America? How many pair of shoes must China sell to USA in exchange for a Boeing 747? We are not talking about just shoes but almost every affordable items that retails at Walmart. The profit made by the Walmart and thousands of companies that outsourced their manufacturing to China are held by USA, not China. Most Americans accept facts graciously and are generally kind hearted despite being fed with all kinds of twisted facts by the media vested parties, like puppets on a string . Cheers, CS Chua Jet Propulsion in Pasadena was started by a Chinese engineer from China. After the war, someone in Washington decided that all Chinese are Communists. So this brilliant scientist was deported to China in exchnage for a USA pilot shot while overflying Chinese territory. This Chinese scientist eventually lead China to build its own nuclear bomb, ICBM and space rockets. Now Jet Propulsion is an institution America is most proud off. It is NASA most prized possession. Now care to find out who started it? Eat the humble pie and move on. - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
How would like if it is a Chinese warplane that lands in USA? How would like if Chinese warplanes flies everyday just outside the USA territorial water and takes aerial photographs at random? America media would rise up called it bloody espionage etc. But this is what USA is doing to China everyday and China has never protested unless you intrude into the airpsace with permission. So what makes Amercian more equal than others? Are you strong enough to give an honest answer? Be realistic. Ask your own Congressman what America is doing to others before saying what others are doing to USA. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi Hakan ; I think you have attached hidden meaning and you have mis-understood my message, thereby diluting it and causing mis-direction. I hate what the US is doing around the world as much as anybody (is that a hate crime?). I watch the mind-numbing apathy of the average American, even members of my own family. I am stunned at the enormous size of an SUV. I watch the towers come down amid astounding and appalling security breaches and no-one has been held accountable. I see depleted uranium scattered across Iraq. I see GW Bush become Man of the Year. I find I need to apologize to my European and Muslim friends for America. So believe me I was not trying to make any statement of America's right or wrong on this incident. If it seemed that way it was definately not my intention. My point is that there was an accident for whatever reason, the plane made an emergency landing, the crew was detained, the plane stripped, the situation threatend to escalate out of control. Now we can endlessly debate who was at fault, but a lot of people who are much more knowledgable than me have done it already with no conclusion. So I have not dared venture into that area. I'm surprised you would. I just say that if an accident happened in another country (I wouldn't say that Russia is a good example of a friend country), the situation would have played out differently. Do you agree? My point is that these are not the actions of a friend. What do we mean by friend ? A friend can be wronged and not retaliate. The US spies on all of it's friends. Personally I don't think this is right, but I rather not get into this debate. Echelon, thought to be operated by the National Security Agency, is present in Thailand with the full support and co-operation of the Thai governemnt. This email is being scanned and archived because there are lot's of trigger words. If that plane had landed in Thailand or Britian or Australia or any European country it would have played out differently. Do you agree? So we can say that China is not a friend of the US or the US is not a friend of China, or who is a friend of who, either way. My important point which got diluted, was that anyone that thinks that China and the US can peacefully exist forever is in for a sorry surprise. Do you agree? China is not a friend of the US, and US is not a friend of China. Walt's good post below lists some of the stage-setting that is going on in preparation for the coming confrontation. The flood of cheap goods from China accomplishes two things. It causes a balance otf trade deficit (China gets more dollars), and destroys US domestic production capacity. When the flood of cheap goods stops (which it will eventually), a lot of people will be without because domestic capacity has been destroyed. This happens to be a factor in why I'm here in Thailand and why I belong to the biofuels list. Not every American can't see the writing on the wall. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, I think that China handled themselves on this occasion. After all, US was spying on them and it is other occasions. When US used commercial aircraft against Russia, when they disappeared with passengers and all. Do not forget that China also lost a plane and pilot, when they tried to take the spy plane down. Maybe the question should be, is US a friend of China? Hakan At 02:51 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi CS ; How many pair of shoes must China sell to USA in exchange for a Boeing 747? Yes, but it is all part of the plan. Most Chinese contracts come with strings that stipulate that parts of the plane must be built in China and generally the plane must be assembled in China. So Boeing needs to etablish a plant and train local workers. This is called technology transfer. The Chinese get plane building technology and when the flow of cheap shoes stops, Americans will not have shoes or anything else. (Some list members will get a certain satisafaction from that). Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi CS ; Once again we are spiraling down into a right/wrong debate. This is not the point. The point is that China and America are not friends. There is a well known saying even among higher Chinese politicians that war with America is ineveitable. Please I don't say who is right or wrong. I jsut say that trouble is coming. Walt's post lists some of the possible problems when trouble developes. Absolutely rtight on. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would like if it is a Chinese warplane that lands in USA? How would like if Chinese warplanes flies everyday just outside the USA territorial water and takes aerial photographs at random? America media would rise up called it bloody espionage etc. But this is what USA is doing to China everyday and China has never protested unless you intrude into the airpsace with permission. So what makes Amercian more equal than others? Are you strong enough to give an honest answer? Be realistic. Ask your own Congressman what America is doing to others before saying what others are doing to USA. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
snip The flood of cheap goods from China accomplishes two things. It causes a balance otf trade deficit (China gets more dollars), and destroys US domestic production capacity. When the flood of cheap goods stops (which it will eventually), a lot of people will be without because domestic capacity has been destroyed. The question Who benefits? - and at whose expense? is very useful and can be most revealing if pursued to the bitter (often!) end, but it can also be misplaced and can misdirect. It's led many conspiracists astray, and indeed blinded them to *real* conspiracies happening right under their noses, and to them. I probably agree with you about the geostrategy and policy intentions, on both sides, but I don't think what's happening with trade goods and trade balances and jobs is so easily explained, it's much more complex than just an enemy plot. This happens to be a factor in why I'm here in Thailand and why I belong to the biofuels list. Not every American can't see the writing on the wall. Very many of them can, I've said here quite a few times I think most can, and I still believe that, despite recent events that would seem to indicate the contrary. But what they see and what they do about it and how effective it might be are all different matters, once again mired in complexity, not least that what are probably the most powerful and entrenched forces that ever existed devote huge resources and efforts to keeping them in disarray. No cause for dismay and despond however - I guess the last Tyrannosaurus rex left standing behaved just the same way. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30617/ Mammoth corporations http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1777/ In These Times December 22, 2004 Turning Strangers into Political Friends Washington and Beijing (and the WTO) notwithstanding, there's much more common cause between the *people* of the US and the *people* of China than there's cause for distrust, rivalry and enmity. Best wishes Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, I think that China handled themselves on this occasion. After all, US was spying on them and it is other occasions. When US used commercial aircraft against Russia, when they disappeared with passengers and all. Do not forget that China also lost a plane and pilot, when they tried to take the spy plane down. Maybe the question should be, is US a friend of China? Hakan At 02:51 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Once again we are spiraling down into a right/wrong debate. This is not the point. The point is that China and America are not friends. There is a well known saying even among higher Chinese politicians that war with America is ineveitable. Please I don't say who is right or wrong. I jsut say that trouble is coming. Walt's post lists some of the possible problems when trouble developes. Absolutely rtight on. But Walt's post is wrong about just who owns what (and never mind quite why) and CS's corrections are indeed correct. Helps to get at least some of the facts right first, eh? As for trouble being inevitable, I don't agree with that either, regardless of what the intentions might be (on both sides). An article titled Slowly but steadily, India will overtake China was published in the IHT about six months ago. It's discussed here, interesting: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34917/1 Best Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would like if it is a Chinese warplane that lands in USA? How would like if Chinese warplanes flies everyday just outside the USA territorial water and takes aerial photographs at random? America media would rise up called it bloody espionage etc. But this is what USA is doing to China everyday and China has never protested unless you intrude into the airpsace with permission. So what makes Amercian more equal than others? Are you strong enough to give an honest answer? Be realistic. Ask your own Congressman what America is doing to others before saying what others are doing to USA. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Guag, Boeing does no such thing. MD did make some of the doors or some not important part in the host country. The avionics and the complete Boeing plane is made in USA. Do not make wild guesses. You can always stop Walmart and others from using China to contract manufacture low value items. The American consumers will end up paying through their noses. China can always buy planes from Airbus. It is so obvious. USA condemns anyone making armaments but USA and Israel remains the world's biggest arms exporter They want to starve the North Koreans to death. What have they done to justify that? Japan murdered millions of innocent people in the 2nd World War, more than the Nazis, yet they have more nuclear power stations (2nd to France) than USA. For them to convert to nuclear bombs and embarked on their military is like waiting for history to repeat itself. They murdered 50,000 innocent Chinese in tiny Singapore alone ( for sending food and clothes to China to help war torned China), my birthplace and my father is one of them. Is their equality in this world? Have we learned anything from the cruelty inflicted by power hungry countries to defenceless countries. The weapons that killed USA soldiers in Afghhanistan used by the Taleban were supplied by Americans themselves. Carpet bombing of Vietnam using Agent Orange? CS - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Hi CS ; How many pair of shoes must China sell to USA in exchange for a Boeing 747? Yes, but it is all part of the plan. Most Chinese contracts come with strings that stipulate that parts of the plane must be built in China and generally the plane must be assembled in China. So Boeing needs to etablish a plant and train local workers. This is called technology transfer. The Chinese get plane building technology and when the flow of cheap shoes stops, Americans will not have shoes or anything else. (Some list members will get a certain satisafaction from that). Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Japan murdered millions of innocent people in the 2nd World War, more than the Nazis, yet they have more nuclear power stations (2nd to France) than USA. For them to convert to nuclear bombs and embarked on their military is like waiting for history to repeat itself. That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 WorldNet itself raises concerns, caveat emptor (even if it's free). Falwell, Robertson, Hal Lindsey, Savage, Farah, Coulter... what else would you expect? Is CS offering gospel or BS? He's right about Hutchinson Whampoa, Li Ka Shing, Global Crossing, Singapore Telemedia, and about most other things, from what I know. That's his facts anyway - they are facts. I'm not sure about his approach, if it's us vs them (like you) then I don't agree. Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Depends how you play it. Sheer dumb luck aside, a good strategist and tactician will beat a would-be millenial emperor blinded by ambition and ideology. America's Neocons and the neoliberal economists have been playing a long game indeed and continue to play it. US foreign policy post-WWII has not lacked for long-term goals, despite a considerable lack of foresight - see, for instance, among many others: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/41438/ See also: http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower, by William Blum http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, by William Blum Best wishes Keith Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in the U.S. and I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in mainland China. I also have some UK buddy engineers born in the UK and others born in the US; I have Nicaragua buddy engineers born in US and Nicaraguan engineers born in Nicaraguan. I can say the same for my buddies from Cameroon, Ireland, Ghana, U.K, Spain, Argentina, Mexico. Some born here...some there. Some of my buddies have a small business. ONe guy is a PhD in power engineering and sells transormers to China and also gets power products from China and sells them to the US. They are merchants and simply are seeking markets to sell their products (some green some not) and also looking for ways to reduce cost. The majority of my buddies don't have any thoughts saying let's wreck the economy and war is inevitable. Some countries still have their home-grown goods by customer choice. For example, when I visited Madrid, Spain and other parts of Spain it appears most of the hard products are made locally because of the cultural nuances of Spaniards - Made in Spain - is very important to the national pride. So I think it is a very complex thing. I do think it starts with the consumer and our pull and push effect on suppliers and manufacturers. We should demand quality...at a reaonable price. Organic foods, range free chicken, family wineries, soy milk, clothes made at home, shoes made at home, etc. It is a lost art to be an artisan and truly self sufficient. That's my two cents. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi CS ; Once again we are spiraling down into a right/wrong debate. This is not the point. The point is that China and America are not friends. There is a well known saying even among higher Chinese politicians that war with America is ineveitable. Please I don't say who is right or wrong. I jsut say that trouble is coming. Walt's post lists some of the possible problems when trouble developes. Absolutely rtight on. But Walt's post is wrong about just who owns what (and never mind quite why) and CS's corrections are indeed correct. Helps to get at least some of the facts right first, eh? As for trouble being inevitable, I don't agree with that either, regardless of what the intentions might be (on both sides). An article titled Slowly but steadily, India will overtake China was published in the IHT about six months ago. It's discussed here, interesting: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34917/1 Best Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would like if it is a Chinese warplane that lands in USA? How would like if Chinese warplanes flies everyday just outside the USA territorial water and takes aerial photographs at random? America media would rise up called it bloody espionage etc. But this is what USA is doing to China everyday and China has never protested unless you intrude into the airpsace with permission. So what makes Amercian more equal than others? Are you strong enough to give an honest answer? Be realistic. Ask your own Congressman what America is doing to others before saying what others are doing to USA. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone think that China is a 'friend of the US, look at how China handled the US spyplane accident and emergency landing in April 2001.Consider how differently it would have been handled if the spyplane had landed in a real friend like any North or South American country, European country, Australia, etc. CNN - 3 months on, U.S. spyplane heads home in pieces http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/china.us.spyplane.ap/ Make no mistake. China is not a friend of the US, and has the US locked in a death spiral. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand PS. Any news of your gasifier?? I'm very interested. --- Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:58 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
From the US$2.00 paid to the Chinese contract manufacturers, the Reebok or Nikes are retailed for more than US$100.00. Who kept the profit? Let's be realistic. For all these products sold at Walmart, who kept those profits? The Chinese are just cheap labour and cheap electricity. Just because they also need oil to power their industry, to make all these cheap products for USA, doesn't justify making enemy out of them, like some USA media. Cheap oil has powered the whole economy for donkey years and it is time to realise cheap oil cannot exist for obvious reasons. Oil exporters wanted more for their finite resources and they have realised they less they pumped the more they will get for their finite resources. If any country can be energy independent, they have nothing to fear. Biofuel is one way out. CS - Original Message - From: Phillip Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in the U.S. and I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in mainland China. I also have some UK buddy engineers born in the UK and others born in the US; I have Nicaragua buddy engineers born in US and Nicaraguan engineers born in Nicaraguan. I can say the same for my buddies from Cameroon, Ireland, Ghana, U.K, Spain, Argentina, Mexico. Some born here...some there. Some of my buddies have a small business. ONe guy is a PhD in power engineering and sells transormers to China and also gets power products from China and sells them to the US. They are merchants and simply are seeking markets to sell their products (some green some not) and also looking for ways to reduce cost. The majority of my buddies don't have any thoughts saying let's wreck the economy and war is inevitable. Some countries still have their home-grown goods by customer choice. For example, when I visited Madrid, Spain and other parts of Spain it appears most of the hard products are made locally because of the cultural nuances of Spaniards - Made in Spain - is very important to the national pride. So I think it is a very complex thing. I do think it starts with the consumer and our pull and push effect on suppliers and manufacturers. We should demand quality...at a reaonable price. Organic foods, range free chicken, family wineries, soy milk, clothes made at home, shoes made at home, etc. It is a lost art to be an artisan and truly self sufficient. That's my two cents. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi CS ; Once again we are spiraling down into a right/wrong debate. This is not the point. The point is that China and America are not friends. There is a well known saying even among higher Chinese politicians that war with America is ineveitable. Please I don't say who is right or wrong. I jsut say that trouble is coming. Walt's post lists some of the possible problems when trouble developes. Absolutely rtight on. But Walt's post is wrong about just who owns what (and never mind quite why) and CS's corrections are indeed correct. Helps to get at least some of the facts right first, eh? As for trouble being inevitable, I don't agree with that either, regardless of what the intentions might be (on both sides). An article titled Slowly but steadily, India will overtake China was published in the IHT about six months ago. It's discussed here, interesting: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34917/1 Best Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would like if it is a Chinese warplane that lands in USA? How would like if Chinese warplanes flies everyday just outside the USA territorial water and takes aerial photographs at random? America media would rise up called it bloody espionage etc. But this is what USA is doing to China everyday and China has never protested unless you intrude into the airpsace with permission. So what makes Amercian more equal than others? Are you strong enough to give an honest answer? Be realistic. Ask your own Congressman what America is doing to others before saying what others are doing to USA. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Hi Walt ; Yes the potential for China to cause serious disruption to the US economy is scary and increasing. Lest anyone
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi CS ; --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Boeing does no such thing. MD did make some of the doors or some not important part in the host country. The avionics and the complete Boeing plane is made in USA. Do not make wild guesses. A quick google turned up : http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/24/Globe1.html To that end, Boeing buys the parts of the wings for its jumbo 747s and for its 737s from the Xian Aircraft Co., the Chinese company that built MIG fighter planes. China has imposed that requirement as a condition of the sale. Eventually, the Chinese factory will produce the tail section for the 737, which now is made at the Boeing plant in Wichita. Chinese engineers have visited Boeing facilities in the United States and Boeing engineers have visited China. How did the Chinese factory secure the tooling and machinery to build tail sections? Boeing supplied the tooling. When asked whether Boeing furnishes tooling to its subcontractors in the United States, a company representative replied: Boeing provides tooling for some suppliers, and the some suppliers provide their own tooling, So it's both. In instructing China, step by step, on how to build its aircraft, Boeing is essentially setting a competitor up in business. The day may well come when China can supply to the world at least some of the planes that Boeing now does, and do it more cheaply. But like much of American business today - and most specifically those businesses that are publicly owned and susceptible to pressures from Wall Street - the Boeing-China deal was more for short-term gains, at the expense of any long-term commitment in America. Please read the rest of that fascinating article. Sure sounds like technology transfer as a condition of sale to me. You can always stop Walmart and others from using China to contract manufacture low value items. Yes the American consumer gets what the American consurer demands. It is so obvious. USA condemns anyone making armaments but USA and Israel remains the world's biggest arms exporter I believe in dictatorships.. As long as I'm the dictator. - GW Bush. Or Be reasonable, do it my way. Or Teamwork is a lot of people working together doing what I say. Japan murdered millions of innocent people in the 2nd World War, more than the Nazis, yet they have more nuclear power stations (2nd to France) than USA. For them to convert to nuclear bombs and embarked on their military is like waiting for history to repeat itself. They murdered 50,000 innocent Chinese in tiny Singapore alone ( for sending food and clothes to China to help war torned China), my birthplace and my father is one of them. I didn't know that but yes I have a copy of Rape of Nanking, and it is a brutal story. Very sorry about your father. Is their equality in this world? Have we learned anything from the cruelty inflicted by power hungry countries to defenceless countries. I would have to say no. Your email brims with deep anger, which is understandable under the circumstances, but it just shows me that more trouble is coming. Please try to understand me. I am not judging anyone right or wrong. If I see dark clouds in the sky I can say that it will rain. The rain will be good for some (farmers) and bad for some (people caught in traffic or floods). This is not a personal bias or preference, and there is no underlying message. I simply say it will rain when I see dark clouds. Then to take this a step further, once we agree that it will rain, we can then take appropriate action (close the windows and doors, find your umbrella). If we cannot agree that it will rain, how can we take appropriate action? I do not say the US is right. Many times I am ashamed of my country. There was a time when America was great, governed by men of integrity (I believe they originally were tax protesters). The US is sliding down the slippery slope. It grieves me to watch it happen. The horrors of humanity's inhumanity are painful for me. I always wonder about why friendly fire incidents get so much coverage, but insurgent deaths get no coverage. Don't we realize that the insurgents have family, wives, children, parents, who love them as much as we love ours. The answer, unfortunately, is no we don't. Every insurgent death brings with it as much pain and sorrow as every friendly fire death. People say they like GW Bush because he sticks to his guns. If that is the case then they should really love the Iraqiis. Have we learned anything? Sadly, no we haven't. With Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hi Phillip ; --- Phillip Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in the U.S. and I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in mainland China. I also have some UK buddy engineers born in the UK and others born in the US; I have Nicaragua buddy engineers born in US and Nicaraguan engineers born in Nicaraguan. I can say the same for my buddies from Cameroon, Ireland, Ghana, U.K, Spain, Argentina, Mexico. Some born here...some there. Some of my buddies have a small business. ONe guy is a PhD in power engineering and sells transormers to China and also gets power products from China and sells them to the US. They are merchants and simply are seeking markets to sell their products (some green some not) and also looking for ways to reduce cost. The majority of my buddies don't have any thoughts saying let's wreck the economy and war is inevitable. I would agree and just say that the person on the street doesn't want taxes, but we have taxes. People don't want traffic or car accidents, but there is traffic and car accidents. People don't want disease, but there is disease. People don't want to get divorced, but there is divorce. The average Chinese person didn't want to support Pol Pot's murdurous regime in Cambodia, but China supported it. People don't want their sons and daughters dying in Iraq, but they are dying in Iraq. Many times what people want and what is are not the same. Some countries still have their home-grown goods by customer choice. For example, when I visited Madrid, Spain and other parts of Spain it appears most of the hard products are made locally because of the cultural nuances of Spaniards - Made in Spain - is very important to the national pride. So I think it is a very complex thing. I do think it starts with the consumer and our pull and push effect on suppliers and manufacturers. We should demand quality...at a reaonable price. Organic foods, range free chicken, family wineries, soy milk, clothes made at home, shoes made at home, etc. It is a lost art to be an artisan and truly self sufficient. That's my two cents. Absolutely right, the consumer gets what they demand. I was in the store the other day at the fresh baked counter. Exipration dates are 3 days after production. A lady was complaining that the bread was only one day over expiration and it was moldy. I promply bought two loaves. The fact that it molded quickly means that they do not load it up with preservatives. This as hidden from her eyes. (I freeze mine). At the local 7-11, there are two isles of junk food, potato chips, snacks, cookies, chocolate, etc. One small shelf for fresh fruits. Nobody complains. The consumer gets what the consumer demands. Sorry out there but my feeling is the average consumer is not capable of intelligent choices after exposure to the mass media. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? - Nike.
Hi CS ; --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the US$2.00 paid to the Chinese contract manufacturers, the Reebok or Nikes are retailed for more than US$100.00. Who kept the profit? Let's be realistic. For all these products sold at Walmart, who kept those profits? The Chinese are just cheap labour and cheap electricity. Just because they also need oil to power their industry, to make all these cheap products for USA, doesn't justify making enemy out of them, like some USA media. Please relax. No one here is making the Chinese out to be enemies. The US is following certain economic policies which will lead to a certain economic effects. Nobody here is blaming anybody. Please relax. It is not so much as who keeps the profit as a trade deficit problem. The balance of trade deficit and exporting inflation will eventually come home to roost. The Chinese are not to blame, but I fear they will be blamed when TSHTF. This will have the effect of aggrivate an already bad situation. The Americans will need someone to blame besides themselves, after all. Watch for any move to uncouple the international dollar from the domestic dollar. If that happens, crawl under the table. Cheap oil has powered the whole economy for donkey years and it is time to realise cheap oil cannot exist for obvious reasons. Oil exporters wanted more for their finite resources and they have realised they less they pumped the more they will get for their finite resources. If any country can be energy independent, they have nothing to fear. Like Iraq? Biofuel is one way out. Absolutely!! Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Walt, U are so myopic that u cannot see further than your nose. Japanese have been accumulating billion of balance-of-account every year since 1960's. Japan-bashing by USA medai used to be the norm during the Cold Wars over this matter. But I guess the Japanese are now getting wiser by paying those media writers to China-bash instead. FYI, Japan holding of USA Treasury Bills etc is at least 50 times that of China. So how can China's holding of US$ affect the Japanese economy, unless yo u have eaten too much sushi and cannot count. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 09:32 PM 12/29/2004, CS wrote: Japan murdered millions of innocent people in the 2nd World War, more than the Nazis, yet they have more nuclear power stations (2nd to France) than USA. For them to convert to nuclear bombs and embarked on their military is like waiting for history to repeat itself. That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
If you doesn't know the facts, then u should ask your Congressman why the Bush OK the takeover of Global Crossing by Singapore Telemedia? If you do not know Li Ka Shing, then u should ask Hongkong Shanghai Bank bosses in UK or the people of HK. If u wish to blame China for America's accumulated trade problems, asked Madeline Albright if China has taken advantage of USA. Ask her if she agreed that Chinese consumer products has indeed bought about reduced inflation for USA. Bash China for all u can but find a real good reason for doing so. If USA media can be trusted, Americans would be a happier lot but there are so much bullshit being written for real like Jon Dougherty from WorldnetDaily. (Eventually he was exposed as writing for a famous American entreprenuer who wanted to have Global Crossing for nothing so they hit onto this nationalistic fervour but Bush turn it down) My advice is for him to join Hollywood as a script writer so that more bullshit can be captured on screen. Walt, catch up with your reading. The 2002 article is already outdated. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 07:25 PM 12/29/2004, CS Chua wrote: Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hey cs, Why so angry? No need to get nasty. Your early points have already received backing, personally, I see no attacks on you. Argue your point to your satisfaction if that is your desire, but I see no reason to include comments that could even remotely be construed as spiteful. I am getting a real sense now of just how deep distrust, and even hatred of Americans runs in the world, not just here, although I do sense it here. It's a shame really. AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * - Original Message - From: csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? If you doesn't know the facts, then u should ask your Congressman why the Bush OK the takeover of Global Crossing by Singapore Telemedia? If you do not know Li Ka Shing, then u should ask Hongkong Shanghai Bank bosses in UK or the people of HK. If u wish to blame China for America's accumulated trade problems, asked Madeline Albright if China has taken advantage of USA. Ask her if she agreed that Chinese consumer products has indeed bought about reduced inflation for USA. Bash China for all u can but find a real good reason for doing so. If USA media can be trusted, Americans would be a happier lot but there are so much bullshit being written for real like Jon Dougherty from WorldnetDaily. (Eventually he was exposed as writing for a famous American entreprenuer who wanted to have Global Crossing for nothing so they hit onto this nationalistic fervour but Bush turn it down) My advice is for him to join Hollywood as a script writer so that more bullshit can be captured on screen. Walt, catch up with your reading. The 2002 article is already outdated. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 07:25 PM 12/29/2004, CS Chua wrote: Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Mike, Out of curiosity, do you have a reference for the Mark Twain quote that you use in your signature? The current Reader's Digest attributes it to Tom Clancy, and I thought that they needed to be corrected. Brian Hey cs, Why so angry? No need to get nasty. Your early points have already received backing, personally, I see no attacks on you. Argue your point to your satisfaction if that is your desire, but I see no reason to include comments that could even remotely be construed as spiteful. I am getting a real sense now of just how deep distrust, and even hatred of Americans runs in the world, not just here, although I do sense it here. It's a shame really. AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * - Original Message - From: csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? If you doesn't know the facts, then u should ask your Congressman why the Bush OK the takeover of Global Crossing by Singapore Telemedia? If you do not know Li Ka Shing, then u should ask Hongkong Shanghai Bank bosses in UK or the people of HK. If u wish to blame China for America's accumulated trade problems, asked Madeline Albright if China has taken advantage of USA. Ask her if she agreed that Chinese consumer products has indeed bought about reduced inflation for USA. Bash China for all u can but find a real good reason for doing so. If USA media can be trusted, Americans would be a happier lot but there are so much bullshit being written for real like Jon Dougherty from WorldnetDaily. (Eventually he was exposed as writing for a famous American entreprenuer who wanted to have Global Crossing for nothing so they hit onto this nationalistic fervour but Bush turn it down) My advice is for him to join Hollywood as a script writer so that more bullshit can be captured on screen. Walt, catch up with your reading. The 2002 article is already outdated. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 07:25 PM 12/29/2004, CS Chua wrote: Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Peter, I did not meant to attach a hidden meaning, but I did try to add some clarifications to the spy plane incident. If that would have happened in Russia during the heights of the cold war, which it actually did, the US pilots would have been thrown in jail and used for large PR court cases, if they were not just executed. The same would have been the case if US would bring down a Chinese spy plane today. The US crew refused to adhere to orders to land the plane and in this process they collided with one of the fighters. This resulted in that both the fighter plane and its pilot was lost and that the spy plane was damaged so it had to land. China dismounted the plane and documented the design carefully, so US did not have to do that part of the work. They did not mount it again and US was offered to pick up the plane in pieces. It was a good offer, especially if you think about the large amounts of planes that US picked up from defectors in the past and that never was returned. I think it was a terrible example you gave and it did not really supported what you wanted to bring forward. I have a lot to say about US corporations benefiting from cheap labor in developing countries. In most cases the country in question get the benefit of work for their citizens, but the profits are collected by US corporate multinationals. These profits are accounted for in US and with the US laws, many international corporations are also forced to consolidate their global activities in US. This because of very smart US laws. To avoiding this, Shell for example, is divided into two independent unit, with no mix of their activities. The US multinationals have very favorable tax regulations and protection from currency fluctuations. It is no country in the world that give more assistance to successful international corporations. I have never seen such favorable consolidation rules for international activities in any other country. Made in China or any other country, leave in the majority of cases huge profits in US corporations, who loses if they bring the money home, instead of reinvesting it outside US. If they would reinvest in US, they would get punished by the local taxes. US tax rules and labor costs in combination, make it very expensive to have production facilities in US. This is not only because of salary levels, but even more because of all the tax incentives that encourage foreign production facilities and that the US tax payers will pick up a very large part of the foreign risks. When I was writing this, I saw a posting by Keith, which complements what I am saying and will therefore stop here. Hakan At 04:40 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: Hi Hakan ; I think you have attached hidden meaning and you have mis-understood my message, thereby diluting it and causing mis-direction. I hate what the US is doing around the world as much as anybody (is that a hate crime?). I watch the mind-numbing apathy of the average American, even members of my own family. I am stunned at the enormous size of an SUV. I watch the towers come down amid astounding and appalling security breaches and no-one has been held accountable. I see depleted uranium scattered across Iraq. I see GW Bush become Man of the Year. I find I need to apologize to my European and Muslim friends for America. So believe me I was not trying to make any statement of America's right or wrong on this incident. If it seemed that way it was definately not my intention. My point is that there was an accident for whatever reason, the plane made an emergency landing, the crew was detained, the plane stripped, the situation threatend to escalate out of control. Now we can endlessly debate who was at fault, but a lot of people who are much more knowledgable than me have done it already with no conclusion. So I have not dared venture into that area. I'm surprised you would. I just say that if an accident happened in another country (I wouldn't say that Russia is a good example of a friend country), the situation would have played out differently. Do you agree? My point is that these are not the actions of a friend. What do we mean by friend ? A friend can be wronged and not retaliate. The US spies on all of it's friends. Personally I don't think this is right, but I rather not get into this debate. Echelon, thought to be operated by the National Security Agency, is present in Thailand with the full support and co-operation of the Thai governemnt. This email is being scanned and archived because there are lot's of trigger words. If that plane had landed in Thailand or Britian or Australia or any European country it would have played out differently. Do you agree? So we can say that China is not a friend of the US or the US is not a friend of China, or who is a friend of who, either way. My important point which got diluted, was that anyone that thinks that China and the US can peacefully exist forever is in for a sorry surprise. Do
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Walt, If one start to dump, the others will follow and it is not any real gains in it, as long as US can be regarded as a good security risk. The problem is more a question if the current US leadership does what they have to do and do not bring US to a situation were they will become a bad risk. Economic warfare as you picture it, is not likely with sound US economic policies. The current weaknesses are wholly a responsibility of the sitting president and his administration. It is many well reputed US economists who has reacted against the current policies and many have resigned from high government posts. Hakan At 07:08 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: At 09:32 PM 12/29/2004, CS wrote: Japan murdered millions of innocent people in the 2nd World War, more than the Nazis, yet they have more nuclear power stations (2nd to France) than USA. For them to convert to nuclear bombs and embarked on their military is like waiting for history to repeat itself. That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? U.S, Mexico? Ireland? New Zealand? etc.
I think CSC, Anti-Fossil, Guag, and all our readers have good points. And because we readers have common interests and sensibilities it is good to have a debate. Each country and more importantly each individual possess a value in our world. CSC-Propulsion has probably seen more of the ugly things of the world than me and understand the points. And Anti-Fossil understands the benefits of maintaining balance. Together we can make change and I think that is probably why Journey to Forever website was formed (thank you Keith and Midori). As JTF readers, Let us set some goals this New Year of doing at least a few great things. My goals for you all are: 1) To finalize and summarize the costs and approach to buying an orphan vacated U.S. gas station and converting it into a clean fuel/biodiesel gas station, including incentives from DOE, commercial credit, maybe a co-op, and other various factors. 2) I plan to get a real job to supplement my consulting in energy efficnecy and renewables in order to assist people like you readers and people of similar sensibilitities 3) Gain a better understanding of how I can use locally made regional goods and services and do a better job of recycling, and offering homegrown goods and services to help my immediate neighbors. 4) I will not be as afraid and fearful in life and write my congressman and get involved for local and regional change. --- Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey cs, Why so angry? No need to get nasty. Your early points have already received backing, personally, I see no attacks on you. Argue your point to your satisfaction if that is your desire, but I see no reason to include comments that could even remotely be construed as spiteful. I am getting a real sense now of just how deep distrust, and even hatred of Americans runs in the world, not just here, although I do sense it here. It's a shame really. AntiFossil Mike Krafka Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * - Original Message - From: csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? If you doesn't know the facts, then u should ask your Congressman why the Bush OK the takeover of Global Crossing by Singapore Telemedia? If you do not know Li Ka Shing, then u should ask Hongkong Shanghai Bank bosses in UK or the people of HK. If u wish to blame China for America's accumulated trade problems, asked Madeline Albright if China has taken advantage of USA. Ask her if she agreed that Chinese consumer products has indeed bought about reduced inflation for USA. Bash China for all u can but find a real good reason for doing so. If USA media can be trusted, Americans would be a happier lot but there are so much bullshit being written for real like Jon Dougherty from WorldnetDaily. (Eventually he was exposed as writing for a famous American entreprenuer who wanted to have Global Crossing for nothing so they hit onto this nationalistic fervour but Bush turn it down) My advice is for him to join Hollywood as a script writer so that more bullshit can be captured on screen. Walt, catch up with your reading. The 2002 article is already outdated. CS - Original Message - From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? At 07:25 PM 12/29/2004, CS Chua wrote: Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Wouldn't that strategy be detrimental to the Chinese? Would it be wise to make such a tremendous investment only to watch its value evaporate? What of the Chinese economy in that case? The Chinese are clever people. (There are, in fact, clever people all over the world.) Why would they seek the demise of their largest market? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
The Chinese are clever people. (There are, in fact, clever people all over the world.) Why would they seek the demise of their largest market? Demise would probably not be an adequate context. Subserviant, dependant or beholding might better fit. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Made in China? Walt Patrick wrote: That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Wouldn't that strategy be detrimental to the Chinese? Would it be wise to make such a tremendous investment only to watch its value evaporate? What of the Chinese economy in that case? The Chinese are clever people. (There are, in fact, clever people all over the world.) Why would they seek the demise of their largest market? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Robert, Demise would probably not be an adequate context. Subserviant, dependant or beholding might better fit. Todd Swearingen Is that not already the case? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
washingtonpost.com Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices Retailer Squeezes Its Asian Suppliers to Cut Costs By Peter S. Goodman and Philip P. Pan Washington Post Foreign Service Sunday, February 8, 2004; Page A01 - Many Japanese companies also do this in China (and elsewhere), it's virtual slavery. Best Keith I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in the U.S. and I have some Chinese buddy engineers born in mainland China. I also have some UK buddy engineers born in the UK and others born in the US; I have Nicaragua buddy engineers born in US and Nicaraguan engineers born in Nicaraguan. I can say the same for my buddies from Cameroon, Ireland, Ghana, U.K, Spain, Argentina, Mexico. Some born here...some there. Some of my buddies have a small business. ONe guy is a PhD in power engineering and sells transormers to China and also gets power products from China and sells them to the US. They are merchants and simply are seeking markets to sell their products (some green some not) and also looking for ways to reduce cost. The majority of my buddies don't have any thoughts saying let's wreck the economy and war is inevitable. Some countries still have their home-grown goods by customer choice. For example, when I visited Madrid, Spain and other parts of Spain it appears most of the hard products are made locally because of the cultural nuances of Spaniards - Made in Spain - is very important to the national pride. So I think it is a very complex thing. I do think it starts with the consumer and our pull and push effect on suppliers and manufacturers. We should demand quality...at a reaonable price. Organic foods, range free chicken, family wineries, soy milk, clothes made at home, shoes made at home, etc. It is a lost art to be an artisan and truly self sufficient. That's my two cents. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi CS ; Once again we are spiraling down into a right/wrong debate. This is not the point. The point is that China and America are not friends. There is a well known saying even among higher Chinese politicians that war with America is ineveitable. Please I don't say who is right or wrong. I jsut say that trouble is coming. Walt's post lists some of the possible problems when trouble developes. Absolutely rtight on. But Walt's post is wrong about just who owns what (and never mind quite why) and CS's corrections are indeed correct. Helps to get at least some of the facts right first, eh? As for trouble being inevitable, I don't agree with that either, regardless of what the intentions might be (on both sides). An article titled Slowly but steadily, India will overtake China was published in the IHT about six months ago. It's discussed here, interesting: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34917/1 Best Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- csc-propulsion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would like if it is a Chinese warplane that lands in USA? How would like if Chinese warplanes flies everyday just outside the USA territorial water and takes aerial photographs at random? America media would rise up called it bloody espionage etc. But this is what USA is doing to China snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Walt Patrick wrote: That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Wouldn't that strategy be detrimental to the Chinese? Would it be wise to make such a tremendous investment only to watch its value evaporate? What of the Chinese economy in that case? The Chinese are clever people. (There are, in fact, clever people all over the world.) Why would they seek the demise of their largest market? I absolutely agree that the Chinese are clever people. I would also add that I believe they're deadly serious about what they're doing. CS would evidently have us believe that the Chinese didn't understand what they were doing when they devalued their currency and then pegged it to the dollar. Perhaps, but I don't buy it. I think they had a plan and were acting in accordance with that plan. I may not know what their plan was, but I'm confident that they acted reasonably and in accordance with their traditions and world view. Politics at that level is a multi-track affair, and some of the tracks contradict other tracks. For example, one might was well ask why the US, or Russia, or China would build nuclear arsenals capable of blowing their customers back into the Stone Age? Destroying one's customers is obviously not good for business, but there are certain geopolitical advantages to be had from possessing the ability to do that. Just as there are advantages to be gained from _being able_ to nuke the other side's economy, which you'll please note, is a different thing from actually doing it. Within living memory, China has taken economic steps which resulted in the deaths of millions of their own citizens; I therefore conclude that they wouldn't blush at taking steps which diminished the quality of life for Americans or Japanese. For example, their ability to throw the US economy into a tailspin by dumping dollars makes for an interesting non-nuclear option for them to threaten deploy when they decide to resolve the Taiwan problem. I'm happy that CS trusts the Chinese government and it's intentions. I don't. Heck, I don't trust the intentions of the US government, or the French government, or the German government (I trust you get the pattern here). About the best I can hope for is that they are acting in their reasonable self interest - i.e. that the folks in charge are not fools. My position would be that the folks in charge in China are not fools, and neither are they stooges for Wal-Mart. My guess is that they have a plan to convert the US into a colony exporting food and raw materials to China; I could be wrong, but that's the way the future looks to me. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. Is this simply a matter of lower labor cost in regards to manufacturing? Are the majority of these products designed in the states and then produced overseas? There's been quite a lot about this, the race to the bottom etc. See below, for a recent article. I realize this is off-topic, and I do try to keep my off-topic posts to an absolute minimum, but I could sure use some enlightenment on this one. What's on- or off-topic is matter of widely varying opinion and circumstance. Topics are therefore not restricted, especially as there doesn't seem to be any rational way of doing that. It's presumed (with some justification) that members will be judicious in what they post and won't stray too far. Please see the List rules on Rights and obligations and Open discussion: http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20040906/05.html Anyway, feel free! Best wishes Keith Addison List owner AntiFossil Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * ___ http://www.tompaine.com/articles/of_trade_quotas_and_fairness.php Of Trade, Quotas And Fairness Jonathan Tasini December 22, 2004 Tasini argues that international trade can only be fair when regulations ensure an equal distribution across the globe of trade's economic benefits. Case in point: the quotas on apparel that have been in place for the past 40 years. They have helped developing countries achieve some measure of economic sustainability. Now that's about to end. And that's no good for anyone. Except China. Jonathan Tasini is president of the Economic Future Group and writes his Working In America columns for TomPaine.com on an occasional basis. While millions of amateurs will wake up in the New Year with a splitting headache-the real hangover of consequence will be felt by millions of poor people around the world thanks to blind, mindless ideology. On January1, almost without notice, the biggest shift in jobs in the shortest amount of time in history will begin: 30 million jobs. And you can thank so-called free trade. After 40 years, the New Year will mark the end of worldwide quotas on apparel, courtesy of the World Trade Organization. Quotas-far from being a bad thing-are a way to manage some fairness or equilibrium in trade relations. In contrast to the Wild West, cutthroat-system of so-called free-trade, for which the WTO acts as ideological enforcer. Within 500 days, 70 percent of the industry will move to China -a $220 billion shift; $42 billion of that shift will happen just in the business other countries had with the U.S. Now, certainly, U.S. apparel workers are going to feel a terrible hit. The remaining U.S. industry will almost be wiped out: of the roughly 690,000 jobs left in apparel in this country, probably 400,000 will vanish in three years. These are often jobs in rural, poorer communities where there are not a lot of options. A Blow To Developing Countries But, I want to spend this column on the devastation that will be faced by other countries where the blow to economic sustainability should be of concern to progressives everywhere. Mexico, Turkey, African countries and Caribbean countries will be deeply shaken economically-losing millions of jobs and billions of dollars in badly-needed cash. The shift will happen so quickly-in economic cycle terms-that these countries will have no chance to replace even a fraction of the lost apparel jobs. In a short time, millions of people will be on the move, turned into nomads clawing for subsistence-level survival. It will make the displacement of the Okies of the Dust Bowl look like a short picnic outing. Take Bangladesh. Apparel accounts for 78 percent of total exports and 1.6 million jobs. It has an unemployment rate of 40 percent and a per capita income of $1,900 a year. When the quotas expire, this poor, struggling country will lose 1 million apparel jobs, 62 percent of its industry. How do we know this will happen? Look at the track record. Some segments of the apparel industry (like dressing gowns) were already removed from the quota system in 2002. What happened? China's share of those segments skyrocketed from just 9 percent in 2001 to 72 percent in 2004-an extremely short time in which to globally dominate an industry. While China was gobbling up the
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Dear Anti-Fossil and Readers: The Wall Street Journal, Dec, 24 Issue and China Daily have have related articles. It is a very complex issue. Here is a summary: --Editor of Start Magazine tried buying only U.S. made goods for her Christmas and realized most items no longer manufactured in the U.S. --80% of everything she searched for in markets and stores was from China. --Most experts says this oversimplifies the complexities of global trade. --For example, Timberland Shoes makes boots in Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Thailand, China, and Vietnam but Sorel Boots of Portland, Oregon is only U.S made. --People say they want to buy products made in the U.S. but are not willing to pay for it., said Ms.Carol Hochman, CEO of Danskin, Inc. where about 35% of goods made in US and the rest in other countries. --The U.S is expected to import about $190 billion of Chinese goods this year, up from $152 billion last year. --Trade gap is expected to double this year topping $160 billion. China Daily --The issue of China making Quality products is an issue. The senior trade expert Zhou Shijian talked about this in a recent China Daily 2004 article: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200403/10/eng20040310_137062.shtml --The problem: China manufacturers focus has been on volume volume volume to satisfy US and European consumers. Places such as WalMart and Target are demanding low prices on wholesale level which pushes high volume lower quality on the manufacturing side especially in developing countries where technology is not as prevalent. Around 25 per cent of the China's 2003 exports were high-tech-based, much lower than the average 70 per cent in most developed countries. T We (China manufacturers) should shift our focus from quantity to quality and abandon the blind pursuit of trade volume, said senior trade expert Zhou Shijian (China Daily). --The China National Development and Reform Commission, China's top economic regulator, set a target for this year's foreign trade to grow by 8 per cent. This is compared to last year's explosive growth of 37.1 per cent, the highest in the past two decades. The target is reasonable and helps to cool down many exporters' blind favour for export quantity, Zhou said. End of summary report. References: Wall Street Journal, China Daily internet searches. Phillip Wolfe My Comments: I think customer education and supplier education is the key. Consumers who flock to places such as WalMart probably will buy at cheap prices and MAY get different quality products (lower?). Enlightened consumers can demand or even create change by starting in their own regional area. I think Ghandi was all about this...so was my Grandmother who made many of her own products. --- Anti-Fossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. Is this simply a matter of lower labor cost in regards to manufacturing? Are the majority of these products designed in the states and then produced overseas? I realize this is off-topic, and I do try to keep my off-topic posts to an absolute minimum, but I could sure use some enlightenment on this one. AntiFossil Minnesota USA * If you think you are too small to make a difference try sleeping with a mosquito. Dalai Lama * The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense or nobody will believe it. Mark Twain * ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. Is this simply a matter of lower labor cost in regards to manufacturing? Are the majority of these products designed in the states and then produced overseas? I realize this is off-topic, and I do try to keep my off-topic posts to an absolute minimum, but I could sure use some enlightenment on this one. It's part of the race to the bottom, and yes, we've discussed it here before. Part of the problem with our excessive energy use concerns the distance that commodities (even food) have to travel to get to us. China's emerging industrial might also contributes to its increasing energy use, and that is another reason why your question is on topic. Localized production and consumption significantly reduces the embodied energy of everything we use. Biofuels, without serious conservation, cannot solve our energy problems. Using less also entails changing our patterns of consumption, including decisions we make about buying products that come from far away. Sometimes this is not practical or possible (as is the case with the Indian tea I drink), but to the extent that supporting local manufacturers and farmers can be done, it SHOULD be done. In this manner, other environmental considerations come into play. Todd is fond of pointing out that pollution is a serious issue. Local pressure on polluters is far more effective than protest involving intercontinental distances. Accountability for the conservation of resources works well on a local level, but is far more difficult when the damage is done beyond our borders. I'm sure others can contribute to this discussion. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
