date:20091228

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Richard Fairhurst
rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Hi all,

 If you get a message from Potlatch complaining about uninitialized
 constant ActiveSupport::Multibyte, and asking you to e-mail me, you
 don't need to.

 Something has changed on the server and Potlatch is simply passing the
 message back to the user. Nothing has changed in Potlatch recently.

 I am on holiday so can't really look any further. However I can see
 that my inbox is rapidly filling up... :|


I got the same yesterday.
When I tried again it was gone.

Marcus

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Re: [OSM-talk] Server problem

2009-12-28 Thread Ciprian Talaba

Hi,

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Marcus Wolschon 
marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Richard Fairhurst
 rich...@systemed.net wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  If you get a message from Potlatch complaining about uninitialized
  constant ActiveSupport::Multibyte, and asking you to e-mail me, you
  don't need to.
 
  Something has changed on the server and Potlatch is simply passing the
  message back to the user. Nothing has changed in Potlatch recently.
 
  I am on holiday so can't really look any further. However I can see
  that my inbox is rapidly filling up... :|


 I got the same yesterday.
 When I tried again it was gone.


I see the same error in the console output of  JOSM (2561) when trying to
download raw GPS data, so this is not affecting only Potlatch.

--Ciprian
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Re: [OSM-talk] DVB-T Empfangsqualität in OSM mappen

Am 26. Dezember 2009 03:56 schrieb Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:


 Which is probably enough for you to know that this is an issue only
 relevant to German people.



more or less. In November 2009 the last terrestrial analogue transmitter was
closed in Italy (AFAIK, at least in Rome this was the case), so that DVB-T
(terrestrial digital TV)-reception quality could be an issue in other
countries as well. Still I think it is no good idea to crosspost to lists in
different languages...

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Server problem

2009-12-28 Thread malenki

Ciprian Talaba wrote:

marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I got the same yesterday.
 When I tried again it was gone.


I see the same error in the console output of  JOSM (2561) when trying
to download raw GPS data, so this is not affecting only Potlatch.

Sometimes I get this for downloading data, too. Happens since
sunday or even saturday.

When having viewed data at osm.org an closing the data.tab, I get:

www.openstreetmap.org

Fehler beim Laden der
GML-Datei /api/0.6/map?bbox=8.853966,54.219441,8.898178,54.234373

(error loading GML-file)

Since this didn't happen until now I guess it is related to the other
errors.

Regards
malenki


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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the policy on unsurveyed roads from imagery?

2009/12/27 Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com

 2009/12/27 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
  In Australia there is this legacy speed limit sign for people with
  racing licenses that they can drive any speed they wish, everyone else
  is limited to 100, how exactly do you map that? (and I saw one such
  sign only the day before yesterday).
 

 Umm, actually that one's a bit of an urban myth.  The sign (and it's a
 UN standard sign, not just Australian) means end of local speed
 limits, back to State/Country default speed limit.  The racing
 licence thing comes from very old rule in NSW where they didn't
 enforce the limit (for anybody) as long as you were not driving at
 excessive or dangerous speeds, and no longer applies.  Somebody once
 used the I'm a racing driver, it's not excessive for me excuse and
 got off.

 As long as you know the state default speed limit, this is easy to
 tag.  It is exactly the same as a sign with that limit.


in Germany there is indeed no speed limit (Ende aller Streckenverbote
translates to end of all restrictions) after this sign (on motorways and
dual cariageways outside town limits), so there was a proposal for a tag
some time ago, which was strongly rejected:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/maxspeed_none

see the discussion page for more info.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] DVB-T Empfangsqualität in OSM mappen

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 more or less. In November 2009 the last terrestrial analogue transmitter
 was closed in Italy (AFAIK, at least in Rome this was the case), so that
 DVB-T (terrestrial digital TV)-reception quality could be an issue in other
 countries as well. Still I think it is no good idea to crosspost to lists
 in different languages...
Closure of analogue stations starts next year in Australia but I won't be 
concerned with reception quality myself as I rarely watch TV at all


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Re: [OSM-talk] Server problem

2009-12-28 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Tom's restarted the daemon and it appears to have fixed the problem for now.

cheers
Richard


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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Server problem

2009-12-28 Thread Aun Johnsen

-- Forwarded message --
From: Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org
Date: Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Server problem
To: malenki o...@malenki.ch

 On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 5:07 PM, malenki o...@malenki.ch wrote:

 Ciprian Talaba wrote:

 marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote:

  I got the same yesterday.
  When I tried again it was gone.

 I see the same error in the console output of  JOSM (2561) when trying
 to download raw GPS data, so this is not affecting only Potlatch.

 Sometimes I get this for downloading data, too. Happens since
 sunday or even saturday.

 When having viewed data at osm.org an closing the data.tab, I get:

 www.openstreetmap.org

 Fehler beim Laden der
 GML-Datei /api/0.6/map?bbox=8.853966,54.219441,8.898178,54.234373

 (error loading GML-file)

 Since this didn't happen until now I guess it is related to the other
 errors.

 Regards
 malenki

It doesn't seem like a constant error, and it does not really affect the
work. It dumps down dosens of annoying error messages, but attempting again
and again will allow you to download the data. Doesn't seem like uploads are
affected (yet). Yesterday I completed a 5 hour edit in Potlatch (a tool I
dislike, but only option when my notebook is offline), without any further
problems. (Though I had another problem, but that might have been in how the
Potlatch was loaded, I had a terrible connection when loading Potlatch,
keyboard shortcuts didn't work, delete didn't work, undo didn't work, I
thought that this was connected with this bug, but now I think it rather had
to do with that thunderstorm)
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[OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

2009-12-28 Thread Robin Paulson

the srtm contour data used in some osm renders is great, partic for
cyclists and walkers. i've realised that it's not as high
accuracy/precision as it might be though. i notice that most GPS
devices also record the elevation within their tracklogs, and that it
might be useful to extract this data, and use it to provide more data
for calculating the altitude of a given point.

any ideas?

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Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

Robin,

Robin Paulson wrote:
 the srtm contour data used in some osm renders is great, partic for
 cyclists and walkers. i've realised that it's not as high
 accuracy/precision as it might be though. i notice that most GPS
 devices also record the elevation within their tracklogs, and that it
 might be useful to extract this data, and use it to provide more data
 for calculating the altitude of a given point.

Pure GPS elevation is worthless due to bad precision (for technical 
reasons, Z measurement is much worse than X/Y measurement in GPSes). 
Some GPSes have barometric altimeters which are very precise but need 
calibration (to an extent they can be post-calibrated if you have 
visited a point with known altitude and weather hasn't changed on you 
too much during the trip).

The biggest problem however is that altitude data is an altogether 
different beast than what we're normally working with. The hill shadings 
and contour lines you see on our maps are basically derived from a 
giant, planet-wide bitmap which has one pixel for (approximately) 
every 100metre x 100metre square on the earth's surface.

We would need a mechanism that takes the spot heights measured with your 
GPS and somehow weaves them into this (or a finer-resolution) bitmap, 
*or* go for a true 3D surface model of the earth. Both will require 
different kinds of editors than we have now.

Simply adding altitude information to features we map will not do 
because most editors are unaware of that, and it is unclear what it 
means exactly. If you map a post box with altitude=100ft, and I later 
find that the post box is in fact on the other side of the road - does 
that mean that this side of the road is still 100ft, just the post box 
has to be moved, or does that mean that I have to move the altitude 
information together with the post box?

In my eyes, a separate project OpenTerrainModel or something like that 
is called for, the results of which could seamlessly replace our usage 
of SRTM data today.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

2009-12-28 Thread Robin Paulson

2009/12/28 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 Pure GPS elevation is worthless due to bad precision (for technical reasons,
 Z measurement is much worse than X/Y measurement in GPSes). Some GPSes have

ok, i didn't realise that. what levels of bad precision are we talking
about; i assume it varies form model to model; how does it compare to
the precision of srtm?

 We would need a mechanism that takes the spot heights measured with your GPS
 and somehow weaves them into this (or a finer-resolution) bitmap, *or* go
 for a true 3D surface model of the earth. Both will require different kinds
 of editors than we have now.

i would envisage it being used in favour of the srtm data (which is
very coarse, as you point out, hence my interest in replacing it)


 Simply adding altitude information to features we map will not do because
 most editors are unaware of that, and it is unclear what it means exactly.
 If you map a post box with altitude=100ft, and I later find that the post
 box is in fact on the other side of the road - does that mean that this side
 of the road is still 100ft, just the post box has to be moved, or does that
 mean that I have to move the altitude information together with the post
 box?

the idea was not to get people to manually tag the altitude of objects
(like post boxes), partly for the reasons you point out, partly
because it's slow.

my idea was to extract a series pf lat, lon, alt triplet from the gps
tracks, and use this to build a 'mesh' of the earth's surface, which
would be stored independently of the points/ways which we create at
the moment. the implicit assumption being that wherever the post box
or any other object is placed on the globe, it takes it's height from
the underlying mesh. from this mesh, we can then generate contours, 3d
models, etc, etc as we do at present with the srtm data


 In my eyes, a separate project OpenTerrainModel or something like that is
 called for, the results of which could seamlessly replace our usage of SRTM
 data today.

exactly

is there an api for accessing the gpx files en masse? or a gpx.planet download?

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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the policy on unsurveyed roads from imagery?

2009/12/29 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 in Germany there is indeed no speed limit (Ende aller Streckenverbote
 translates to end of all restrictions) after this sign (on motorways and
 dual cariageways outside town limits), so there was a proposal for a tag
 some time ago, which was strongly rejected:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/maxspeed_none

I find the reasons it was rejected to be poorly thought out, as
Lulu-Ann wrote, untagged isn't the same thing as unsurveyed.

Instead of words, in programming -1 is often used to express no limit.

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[OSM-talk] How to load geotagged pics without GPS track ?

2009-12-28 Thread Jeremy G

Hi list,

I'm in trouble with the new version of Agpifoj (the plugin designed to
display geotagged photos, now integrated into JOSM core) : looks like it's
not possible to load pics without a GPS track ??
Back from field I've got a bunch of geotagged photos for mapping (from
android smartphone), but the GPS track (from the same android) is just all
weird and useless. So I intended to use only the pictures with the pretty
detailed french cadastre WMS, which we are allowed to use...

Any hint welcome :)

Jeremy
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Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

Hi,

Robin Paulson wrote:
 ok, i didn't realise that. what levels of bad precision are we talking
 about; i assume it varies form model to model; how does it compare to
 the precision of srtm?

I'm not really an expert in this but Internet sources say that altitude 
error is *at least* factor 1.5 compared to x/y error. My personal 
experience (with a decent  recent Garmin device) is that a 200ft 
altitude error is not unusual.

SRTM3 reportedly has a maximum error of about 20ft (but I haven't 
verified that myself).

 i would envisage it being used in favour of the srtm data (which is
 very coarse, as you point out, hence my interest in replacing it)

There are also patches of better altitude data available. What we 
normally use is SRTM-3, but for the area of the USA there is also SRTM-1 
with triple the resolution.

 my idea was to extract a series pf lat, lon, alt triplet from the gps
 tracks, and use this to build a 'mesh' of the earth's surface, which
 would be stored independently of the points/ways which we create at
 the moment. the implicit assumption being that wherever the post box
 or any other object is placed on the globe, it takes it's height from
 the underlying mesh. from this mesh, we can then generate contours, 3d
 models, etc, etc as we do at present with the srtm data

That would certainly be a good start. I do however think that special 
editors and the ability to manually edit that mesh will be required 
sooner or later. You might, for example, have very a few very precise 
measurements that you want reflected in the data, or you might want to 
correct for an erroneous track or something.

The folks from OpenSeaMap are, by the way, thinking along the same lines 
for bathymetry (ocean depth) data. They might get access to a very 
coarse international data set which they can use as a basis, but then 
want to refine that using spot measurements or other sources. It appears 
that well-equipped ships, when en-route, automatically broadcast ocean 
depth measurements of some kind which can be used to improve data.

 In my eyes, a separate project OpenTerrainModel or something like that is
 called for, the results of which could seamlessly replace our usage of SRTM
 data today.
 
 exactly
 is there an api for accessing the gpx files en masse? or a gpx.planet 
 download?

Lars Francke is working on something like it at the moment, see Export 
of GPX data over on the dev list.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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[OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

2009-12-28 Thread Pieren

Could some cycleway experimented mappers check and complete this wiki
page that I enhanced with new pictures and examples :

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_amenagements

I tried to summarize the tagging based on that page and others (e.g.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access and
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway).
I didn't catch the meaning of two unusual tags in the Key:access page:

For more complex direction dependent restrictions, the postfixes
:backward and :forward can be used on the keys, for example:
* bicycle:backward=no (when a road has a oneway cycleway next to
it that must be used, and a cyclelane in the other direction)
* bicycle:backward=yes (when cyclists are allowed to travel in
both directions on a oneway street (but no lane is present))

All comments, remarks are welcome,

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to load geotagged pics without GPS track ?

2009-12-28 Thread Andre Hinrichs

Am Montag, den 28.12.2009, 23:50 +0100 schrieb Jeremy G:
 Hi list,
 
 I'm in trouble with the new version of Agpifoj (the plugin designed to
 display geotagged photos, now integrated into JOSM core) : looks like
 it's not possible to load pics without a GPS track ??
 Back from field I've got a bunch of geotagged photos for mapping
 (from android smartphone), but the GPS track (from the same android)
 is just all weird and useless. So I intended to use only the pictures
 with the pretty detailed french cadastre WMS, which we are allowed to
 use...
 
 Any hint welcome :)

I have a similar problem and sent a message to JOSM-dev mailing list. So
they are aware of the problem.

Only hint I can give at the moment: use an older version of JOSM, e.g.
the stable 2561.


Andre



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Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

2009-12-28 Thread John F. Eldredge

I have heard that the altitude data available to civilian GPS units (as opposed 
to the US military units) has deliberate errors built in, in order to make it 
harder for someone planning for a future artillery attack.  There is said to be 
a separate, more accurate, but encrypted, altitude signal for US military use.  
Remember, the GPS satellite constellation was put up by the US military.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-Original Message-
From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 00:20:09 
To: Robin Paulsonrobin.paul...@gmail.com
Cc: OSM Talktalk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

Hi,

Robin Paulson wrote:
 ok, i didn't realise that. what levels of bad precision are we talking
 about; i assume it varies form model to model; how does it compare to
 the precision of srtm?

I'm not really an expert in this but Internet sources say that altitude 
error is *at least* factor 1.5 compared to x/y error. My personal 
experience (with a decent  recent Garmin device) is that a 200ft 
altitude error is not unusual.

SRTM3 reportedly has a maximum error of about 20ft (but I haven't 
verified that myself).

 i would envisage it being used in favour of the srtm data (which is
 very coarse, as you point out, hence my interest in replacing it)

There are also patches of better altitude data available. What we 
normally use is SRTM-3, but for the area of the USA there is also SRTM-1 
with triple the resolution.

 my idea was to extract a series pf lat, lon, alt triplet from the gps
 tracks, and use this to build a 'mesh' of the earth's surface, which
 would be stored independently of the points/ways which we create at
 the moment. the implicit assumption being that wherever the post box
 or any other object is placed on the globe, it takes it's height from
 the underlying mesh. from this mesh, we can then generate contours, 3d
 models, etc, etc as we do at present with the srtm data

That would certainly be a good start. I do however think that special 
editors and the ability to manually edit that mesh will be required 
sooner or later. You might, for example, have very a few very precise 
measurements that you want reflected in the data, or you might want to 
correct for an erroneous track or something.

The folks from OpenSeaMap are, by the way, thinking along the same lines 
for bathymetry (ocean depth) data. They might get access to a very 
coarse international data set which they can use as a basis, but then 
want to refine that using spot measurements or other sources. It appears 
that well-equipped ships, when en-route, automatically broadcast ocean 
depth measurements of some kind which can be used to improve data.

 In my eyes, a separate project OpenTerrainModel or something like that is
 called for, the results of which could seamlessly replace our usage of SRTM
 data today.
 
 exactly
 is there an api for accessing the gpx files en masse? or a gpx.planet 
 download?

Lars Francke is working on something like it at the moment, see Export 
of GPX data over on the dev list.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could some cycleway experimented mappers check and complete this wiki
 page that I enhanced with new pictures and examples :

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_amenagements


The structure looks really good.

A few random comments:

1) Not sure why you're using highway=unclassified - you know
unclassified' is a particular type of road, right? Whereas cycleways can
occur on almost any kind of road. So you probably should write something
like highway=whatever.

2) In example L1a, I have a strong preference for using existing tags
(cycleway=lane) if possible, rather than introducing new, unsupported tags
(cycleway:left=lane). Similarly for M4 and probably others.

3) Make it clearer in the intro that these examples are all for a
right-drive country.

4) Avoid using same as ... - just restate it, imho.

5) IMHO it's a bit confusing that Way A is the right-hand side way.

6) You could also add cycleway=no where appropriate.

7) You don't make allowance for segregated cycleways
(tracks/copenhagen-style lanes) that aren't represented as distinct ways.
Is highway=residential, cycleway=track not possible?

8) Since I don't think we have total consensus on how to map all this stuff,
it might be worth setting up multiple columns to show how different groups
are currently mapping, and using that to work towards consensus.

Steve


 I tried to summarize the tagging based on that page and others (e.g.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access and
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway).
 I didn't catch the meaning of two unusual tags in the Key:access page:

 For more complex direction dependent restrictions, the postfixes
 :backward and :forward can be used on the keys, for example:
* bicycle:backward=no (when a road has a oneway cycleway next to
 it that must be used, and a cyclelane in the other direction)
* bicycle:backward=yes (when cyclists are allowed to travel in
 both directions on a oneway street (but no lane is present))

 All comments, remarks are welcome,

 Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

2009-12-28 Thread andrzej zaborowski

2009/12/28 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com:
 2009/12/28 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 Pure GPS elevation is worthless due to bad precision (for technical reasons,
 Z measurement is much worse than X/Y measurement in GPSes). Some GPSes have

 ok, i didn't realise that. what levels of bad precision are we talking
 about; i assume it varies form model to model; how does it compare to
 the precision of srtm?

Attached is a plot of my bike ride with three devices (different
models unfortunately) recording altitudes. (x is degrees longitude, y
metres)

One thing to consider when using the traces from osm's collection is
that not all of them are recorded on the ground level, there are at
least a couple of airplane traces and a paraglider trace.

Cheers
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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the policy on unsurveyed roads from imagery?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:

That said, I personally find the highway tagging guidelines difficult to
apply anyway.  In states without formal legal road classifications we might
as well mark everything except motorways and service roads as road for all
I can tell.  Anything else is just tagging for the renderer.

Definitely the worst misunderstanding of tagging for the renderer that
I've seen so far. If I understand you right, you see two options for
tagging: either tag everything 100% objectively based on hard facts like
speed limits and documentation, or tag completely arbitrarily. Suffice to
say there is a very healthy middle ground, where there *is* benefit in
distinguishing primary roads from tertiary from residential...even if based
on rough observation.

I guess to some extent it's a question of whether or not a street map
 database without speed limits is good enough.  I'd say it is not.  At
 least not in the more heavily populated areas of the world.  I suppose all
 the bicyclists in OSM would disagree with that, but they don't have much use
 for primary/secondary/tertiary designations either, do they?


Distinctions like that are indeed important for cyclists, because they
generally prefer to avoid trunk/primary/secondary roads in favour of
tertiary/residential. You don't need to know the exact speed limit of a road
to know that trunk is faster/busier/more dangerous than residential.


 Mapping a road the wrong color when there aren't any traffic_calming tags
 is another great way to get people adding appropriate tags.


What's so important about traffic_calming tags? True, they will affect
accurate trip time planning, but is that it?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] augmenting contour data with gps track logs

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Robin Paulson wrote:
 the srtm contour data used in some osm renders is great, partic for
 cyclists and walkers. i've realised that it's not as high
 accuracy/precision as it might be though. i notice that most GPS
 devices also record the elevation within their tracklogs, and that it
 might be useful to extract this data, and use it to provide more data
 for calculating the altitude of a given point.

 any ideas?


There are many sources of error in SRTM and GPS and barometric height 
measures.
First of all
Height compared to what?
Sea Level?
Sea Level is as arbitrarily defined as any tag in OSM - its what somebody else 
says Sea Level is.
Next - there are plenty of fake elevations in SRTM data. I can show you places 
where the creek is higher than the ground according to SRTM. On the flat plain 
the only trees grow next to the creek and are an obvious feature - so the 
satellite measure picks out the trees as a rise in ground level. Sometimes the 
contour elevation is found to be a big shed.
Most of the time the Garmin Etrex Hcx offers the same height as the SRTM data 
on the imported map, but seeing where and when it makes errors is the key to 
understanding the errors.
A fast bicycle descent wrecks the height calculation because the processor is 
too slow. It defaults to barometric measure then but this is affected by more 
than height. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google launches Indigenous Mapping workshop

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 10:25 AM, MP singular...@gmail.com wrote:

  But what if that population then consists entirely of Map Maker users?
   Is that really beneficial for OSM? I know what you're saying, but it
   is reasonable to expect Map Maker users to jump ship to OSM? Is that
   even what we should be hoping for?

 If just one of them discovers OSM somehow, finds out it is better
 (they can have the map data back, unlike mapmaker where they can
 'only' view results on google, plus more types of data are supported -
 footways, various POIs ), then he may tell others about it and
 then maybe entire such mapmaker community will gradually come to OSM.
 :)


And even if they don't, hey, the locals end up with maps they can use, where
before they had none. This is a good thing.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Steve Bennett wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
  Could some cycleway experimented mappers check and complete this wiki
  page that I enhanced with new pictures and examples :
 
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_  amenagements

 The structure looks really good.


Pieren 
I like the page
but what is amenagements?
It translates roughly to amenities but that's not necessarily the best 
English word

Perhaps Mapping Cycle Lanes and Tracks??

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 Pieren
 I like the page
 but what is amenagements?
 It translates roughly to amenities but that's not necessarily the best
 English word


Features

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the policy on unsurveyed roads from imagery?

2009/12/29 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
 What's so important about traffic_calming tags? True, they will affect
 accurate trip time planning, but is that it?

He's assuming it's a objective way to map residential streets, main
through fares generally don't have traffic calming devices.

However that doesn't always hold water here since those ways might be
the main shopping area of small towns, so you need to distinguish them
from alternative routes as well. I don't think this can be completely
tagged in an objective manner like that simply because some streets
that are now less important for traffic are still very important for
pedestrian traffic and where pedestrians want to drive to before they
become pedestrians.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to load geotagged pics without GPS track ?

2009-12-28 Thread Apollinaris Schoell

you can lad any gpx track and then load the geotagged pics with a right click 
on the gpx layer. Josm will use the existing exif data and will not try to 
match with gpx

On 29 Dec 2009, at 24:45 , Andre Hinrichs wrote:

 Am Montag, den 28.12.2009, 23:50 +0100 schrieb Jeremy G:
 Hi list,
 
 I'm in trouble with the new version of Agpifoj (the plugin designed to
 display geotagged photos, now integrated into JOSM core) : looks like
 it's not possible to load pics without a GPS track ??
 Back from field I've got a bunch of geotagged photos for mapping
 (from android smartphone), but the GPS track (from the same android)
 is just all weird and useless. So I intended to use only the pictures
 with the pretty detailed french cadastre WMS, which we are allowed to
 use...
 
 Any hint welcome :)
 
 I have a similar problem and sent a message to JOSM-dev mailing list. So
 they are aware of the problem.
 
 Only hint I can give at the moment: use an older version of JOSM, e.g.
 the stable 2561.
 
 
 Andre
 
 
 
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[OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

Hoi allemaal,
Ik had pas al een keer een dubbele node weggehaald voor station Eindhoven, 
maar nu zie ik dat er in Breukelen maar liefst drie nodes zijn voor hetzelfde 
station:
http://osm.org/go/0E6FpNFrG--

Is hier een goede reden voor (zijn er mensen die de stops graag op alle rails 
willen o.i.d.), of zal ik al die dubbelen er maar gewoon uitgooien met behoud 
van tags?

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

2009-12-28 Thread Stefan de Konink

Op 28-12-09 12:00, Freek schreef:
 Hoi allemaal,
 Ik had pas al een keer een dubbele node weggehaald voor station Eindhoven,
 maar nu zie ik dat er in Breukelen maar liefst drie nodes zijn voor hetzelfde
 station:
 http://osm.org/go/0E6FpNFrG--

 Is hier een goede reden voor (zijn er mensen die de stops graag op alle rails
 willen o.i.d.), of zal ik al die dubbelen er maar gewoon uitgooien met behoud
 van tags?

Nouja het lijkt me makkelijk voor routering. Maar zouden niet iets 
beters kunnen doen met een relatie over de sporen van een station?


Stefan


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

2009-12-28 Thread Freek Dijkstra

Freek wrote:

 ... nu zie ik dat er in Breukelen maar liefst drie nodes zijn voor hetzelfde 
 station:
 http://osm.org/go/0E6FpNFrG--
 
 Is hier een goede reden voor (zijn er mensen die de stops graag op alle rails 
 willen o.i.d.), of zal ik al die dubbelen er maar gewoon uitgooien met behoud 
 van tags?

Ik zou er twee weggooien, en de middelste behouden, en daar de
toegangstrap naar toe laten leiden.

Ik vermoed dat ik hier (deels) verantwoordelijk voor ben, toen ik de
gewijzigde situatie rond het stationsplein heb aangepast (dat was mijn
2e edit). Waarschijnlijk omdat ik niet wist of het wel of niet met het
spoor zelf verbonden moet zijn (ik was uitgegaan van wel ivm navigatie
voor OV).

Is het trouwens een mogelijk om aan te geven waar de kiss  ride
plaats is? Deze is namelijk pas verplaatst van de oost- naar de westkant
van station Breukelen.

Groet,
(een andere) Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

On Monday 28 December 2009 12:08:41 Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Op 28-12-09 12:00, Freek schreef:
  Hoi allemaal,
  Ik had pas al een keer een dubbele node weggehaald voor station
  Eindhoven, maar nu zie ik dat er in Breukelen maar liefst drie nodes zijn
  voor hetzelfde station:
  http://osm.org/go/0E6FpNFrG--
 
  Is hier een goede reden voor (zijn er mensen die de stops graag op alle
  rails willen o.i.d.), of zal ik al die dubbelen er maar gewoon uitgooien
  met behoud van tags?
 
 Nouja het lijkt me makkelijk voor routering. Maar zouden niet iets
 beters kunnen doen met een relatie over de sporen van een station?

Zoiets zou inderdaad wel een idee zijn. Ik zou dan verwachten de platforms in 
die relatie te hebben en een node of polygon die het station zelf beschrijft 
(railway=station). Voor routering zou ik dan verwachten een route relatie te 
hebben die de opeenvolgende station-relaties in een stop role heeft.
Ik vraag me af of we in OSM willen opnemen dat een bepaalde trein op een 
bepaald platform stopt, maar het is misschien wel handig om aan te geven (met 
een relatie) welk spoor verbonden is met welk platform. (En later misschien 
zelfs de stopvakken, hoe heten die dingen? ;-)

Maar goed, ik zie dus niet waarom de railway=station tag hergebruikt zou 
moeten worden voor stop-plaatsen van treinen op de rails.

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

2009-12-28 Thread Stefan de Konink

Op 28-12-09 12:22, Freek schreef:
 Maar goed, ik zie dus niet waarom de railway=station tag hergebruikt zou
 moeten worden voor stop-plaatsen van treinen op de rails.

De belangrijkste reden is dus dat de relatie tussen station en sporen 
onbreekt... dus fix eerst dat. En bijvoorkeur niet op de routes.


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Kiss ride

On Monday 28 December 2009 12:11:58 Freek Dijkstra wrote:
 Is het trouwens een mogelijk om aan te geven waar de kiss  ride
 plaats is? Deze is namelijk pas verplaatst van de oost- naar de westkant
 van station Breukelen.

Kan daar zo even geen tag voor vinden (en tagwatch is down), maar in de stijl 
van de park_ride tag ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking#Tags ) zou 
ik kiss_ride=yes voorstellen (het is een soort parkeerplaats, toch?).
Eigenlijk mis ik ook een standaard om aan te geven hoe lang je ergens mag 
parkeren, dat zou hier misschien ook helpen (ik weet niet of er een formele 
maximale zoen-duur is voor zulke parkeerplaatsen...).

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

On Monday 28 December 2009 12:26:08 Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Op 28-12-09 12:22, Freek schreef:
  Maar goed, ik zie dus niet waarom de railway=station tag hergebruikt zou
  moeten worden voor stop-plaatsen van treinen op de rails.
 
 De belangrijkste reden is dus dat de relatie tussen station en sporen
 onbreekt... dus fix eerst dat. En bijvoorkeur niet op de routes.

Het is misschien jammer dat het weer zo'n groepeer-relatie is, maar goed. 
Hamburg hbf is wel op zo'n manier getagged, ik zal dat zo ook eens in 
Breukelen en Eindhoven proberen.

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

2009-12-28 Thread Stefan de Konink

Op 28-12-09 12:47, Freek schreef:
 On Monday 28 December 2009 12:26:08 Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Op 28-12-09 12:22, Freek schreef:
 Maar goed, ik zie dus niet waarom de railway=station tag hergebruikt zou
 moeten worden voor stop-plaatsen van treinen op de rails.

 De belangrijkste reden is dus dat de relatie tussen station en sporen
 onbreekt... dus fix eerst dat. En bijvoorkeur niet op de routes.

 Het is misschien jammer dat het weer zo'n groepeer-relatie is, maar goed.
 Hamburg hbf is wel op zo'n manier getagged, ik zal dat zo ook eens in
 Breukelen en Eindhoven proberen.

Wat is er jammer aan?

Ik ben relaties gaan zien als compressie optie. Dus een relatie bevat 
alles met dezelfde tags.

Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Dubbele stations

On Monday 28 December 2009 12:54:15 Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Op 28-12-09 12:47, Freek schreef:
  On Monday 28 December 2009 12:26:08 Stefan de Konink wrote:
  Op 28-12-09 12:22, Freek schreef:
  Maar goed, ik zie dus niet waarom de railway=station tag hergebruikt
  zou moeten worden voor stop-plaatsen van treinen op de rails.
 
  De belangrijkste reden is dus dat de relatie tussen station en sporen
  onbreekt... dus fix eerst dat. En bijvoorkeur niet op de routes.
 
  Het is misschien jammer dat het weer zo'n groepeer-relatie is, maar
  goed. Hamburg hbf is wel op zo'n manier getagged, ik zal dat zo ook eens
  in Breukelen en Eindhoven proberen.
 
 Wat is er jammer aan?
 
 Ik ben relaties gaan zien als compressie optie. Dus een relatie bevat
 alles met dezelfde tags.

Ik heb nu Eindhoven omgetagged, met railway=stop's op de plaatsen waar de 
trein op het spoor stopt, en heb die aan die alvast aan de relaties van twee 
van de treinroutes toegevoegd i.p.v. de station node. Ik heb nog niet alle 
treinroutes gedaan omdat het vrij veel werk is om het juiste spoor op te 
zoeken en de route te verleggen (wat natuurlijk nog kan veranderen ook, daarom 
ben ik ook niet zo blij met deze manier van taggen, maar goed).

-- 
Freek

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[OSM-talk-nl] Maxstay (was: Re: Kiss ride)

2009-12-28 Thread Cartinus

On Monday 28 December 2009 12:30:00 Freek wrote:
 Eigenlijk mis ik ook een standaard om aan te geven hoe lang je ergens mag
 parkeren

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxstay
http://osmdoc.com/en/tag/maxstay/

De tag is er dus wel, maar de mogelijke waarden zijn niet echt 
gestandaardiseerd.

-- 
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [talk-au] amenity=parking in the middle of a field?

2009-12-28 Thread Ross Scanlon

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:56:46 +1100
John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote:

 Roy Wallace wrote:
  Anyone know what the deal is with this?:
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/316607432
 
 Here's another one that seems out by hundreds of metres to me, and from 
 the same source:
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/316590785
 
 Although it's been a while since I camped at Cynthia Bay, it was on the 
 other side of the road and on the water's edge at Lake St Clair.

Just about all of these from that source are out by upto several hundred metres.

It's probably a case of truncated gps points.


-- 
Cheers
Ross

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Re: [talk-au] Cycle path under railway

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Geoff wrote:
 Geoff
 New to OSM
 New to Warragul
 New to Australia and that is why I am here I started using OSM on my
 South Africa bought Garmin and started a new hobby of mapping. :)
welcome
but beware our sense of humour


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Re: [talk-au] Cycle path under railway

2009-12-28 Thread Evan Sebire

From memory isn't the train line raised for a long sections including the
station. So using the bridge=yes or bridge=viaduct on the train line would be
appropriate with the layer tag as Ross suggested.

I think the Alfread St road crossing should be under the train track from
memory?
http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=-38.166143648753405lon=145.93336337482924zoom=15layers=BF000F

Evan

On Monday 28 Dec 2009 09:21:21 Ross Scanlon wrote:
I am slowly mapping parts of Warragul and cycled the shared use path in
Linear park. The cycles track runs under the Bairnsdale line railway at
one point and I was wondering how to map this. I thought about making
two points on the way a bridge but JOSM would not allow this. Do I have
to make a separate way for this part and then link it all together.

Is there a railway bridge over the cycle track or does the cycle track go
through a tunnel?

Don't forget to include a layer= tag. layer=1 for bridge layer=-1 for
tunnel.

You have to create a separate way.

Have a look at the Bay Trail here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-37.83128lon=144.90953zoom=16layers=B0
00FTF

Which raises another point how do I link all the bits that I have mapped
into one one way or put in a relation to make it a route. Or do I just
work around it by naming all the bits as Linear park track?

Either, put them into a relation or name all the ways that make up the
track. You can not have a single way with different tags between
different nodes. It's not a work arround, that's one of the correct ways
to do it.

Geoff
New to OSM
New to Warragul
New to Australia and that is why I am here I started using OSM on my
South Africa bought Garmin and started a new hobby of mapping. :)

Welcome.

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Re: [talk-au] Cycle path under railway

2009-12-28 Thread John Henderson

Geoff wrote:
 Hello
 
 I am slowly mapping parts of Warragul and cycled the shared use path in
 Linear park. The cycles track runs under the Bairnsdale line railway at
 one point and I was wondering how to map this. I thought about making
 two points on the way a bridge but JOSM would not allow this. Do I have
 to make a separate way for this part and then link it all together.

As a relative newcomer myself, it's occurred to me that you might be 
trying constructing a bridge over the cycle path by modifying that path.

But you'd need to modify the railway line to make a bridge over the path.

In that case, tag a section of line with:

bridge=yes
layer=1

John

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Re: [talk-au] Cycle path under railway

2009-12-28 Thread John Henderson

I wrote:

 As a relative newcomer myself, it's occurred to me that you might be 
 trying constructing a bridge over the cycle path by modifying that path.
 
 But you'd need to modify the railway line to make a bridge over the path.
 
 In that case, tag a section of line with:
 
 bridge=yes
 layer=1

I should add that this is after inserting any extra nodes into the 
railway (as required), then Split Way (Tools) twice to make a 
separate piece of way that's to be the bridge.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Cycle path under railway

2009-12-28 Thread Ross Scanlon

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:45:40 +1100
Geoff gjn@gmail.com wrote:

 
 Thanks for the help in advance.
 

You may also want to have a look at:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features

and

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines

As I noticed you tagged a set of traffic lights as junction=traff_signals, it 
should be highway=traffic_signals.


-- 
Cheers
Ross

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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Ross Scanlon wrote:
 On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:19:11 +1100

 Richard Colless fire...@ar.com.au wrote:
  When tagging roads, what do you use for roads in a purely industrial
  area? There isn't anything for industrial, so I've been changing
  unknown and No preset to residential when adding in street names.

 highway=unclassified

good deal of discussion about this
so another point of view is residential for those industrial area streets 
and unclassified is a road classification below tertiary in rural areas

(there is no conclusion about this, whether this statement starts a long 
argument or not)

I'd rather solve cycleway than this dilemma  


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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009-12-28 Thread Richard Colless







  

  highway=unclassified
  

good deal of discussion about this
so another point of view is "residential" for those industrial area streets
and unclassified is a road classification below tertiary in rural areas

(there is no conclusion about this, whether this statement starts a long
argument or not)

  
  
While it might be unconcluded by mappers, the thing to remember is a
lot of routing software is made by europeans and they classify
unclassified above residential, so you might get some funny routing
using residential in industrial areas.
  

>From a user's point of view, I would expect to see major roads one
colour, secondary roads another colour. I wouldn't expect to see a
different colour just because a road goes past factories instead of
homes. Do "unclassified" and "residential" both render to the same
colour?

..Richard




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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009/12/28 Richard Colless fire...@ar.com.au:
 From a user's point of view, I would expect to see major roads one colour,
 secondary roads another colour. I wouldn't expect to see a different colour
 just because a road goes past factories instead of homes. Do unclassified
 and residential both render to the same colour?

Mapnik renders them identically, but some routing software treats
unclassified as a faster through fare way.

From mapnik's osm.xml

Filter[highway] = 'residential' or [highway]='unclassified'/Filter

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Re: [talk-au] Miniature Railways

I thought I had miniature railways rendering but it seems I had a
small problem with the SQL in the mapnik config on btc server, but I
have miniature railways rendering again now:

http://maps.bigtincan.com/?z=17ll=-28.852,153.050layer=B0TT

2 down (http://maps.bigtincan.com/?z=18ll=-26.625,152.955layer=B0TT),
not sure how many still aren't mapped.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=miniature+railwaymeta=cr%3DcountryAU

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Re: [talk-au] amenity=parking in the middle of a field?

2009/12/27 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
 Although the bbox does allow a few locations in from south eastern
 asia, but then you can load the file into JOSM and run searches on it,
 but it doesn't seem easy to search on the version number of an object,
 not sure why but I've filed a bug about this:

 https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/4241

This has been fixed in revision 2695, so the next stable version
should have the ability to search for the version of an OSM object. eg
version 1 = initial upload

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Re: [talk-au] Cycle path under railway

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Geoff gjn@gmail.com wrote:

 Which raises another point how do I link all the bits that I have mapped
 into one one way or put in a relation to make it a route. Or do I just
 work around it by naming all the bits as Linear park track?


A relation is best for long bike paths, imho. Amongst other things, it makes
it render more prominently in opencyclemap.

Also, looks like you haven't mapped the Warragul-Drouin (Two Towns) Trail
yet? Is that on the agenda? And while I think of it, it looks like the
Boolarra-Mirboo North trail is incompletely mapped. Perhaps because there
are two bridges down...it's possible to get past (did it a few weeks ago),
but a bit fiddly, and you need to lift your bike over a small (1 metre wide)
stream.

Then of course there's the Sale-Maffra trail, and the Foster-Leongatha rail
trail...:)

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Steve Bennett wrote:
 And like you said, what difference is there really between a road that goes
 past factories and one that goes past homes?
here b**er all
but in parts of Europe where town plans date from the Middle Ages, apparently 
a lot.



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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009-12-28 Thread Franc Carter

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:

 On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 21:50:58 +1100
 Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

  On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Ross Scanlon wrote:
   But it's just one more reason to use josm.
  In JOSM you can use copy and paste
  so I can draw one roundabout with 8 or 12 nodes
  then copy and paste that roundabout across where I'm working
  joining up nodes and ways then erasing the central crossroads


I believe (correctly ?) that in general roundabouts don't have names
in Australia

cheers

 Likewise.

 It would still be nice to have a tool to do it automatically or some way
 to scale the circle size.


 Fwiw, here's how I convert a crossroads into a roundabout in potlatch:
 1) Break one of the roads where it joins the roundabout.
 2) Start a new way at the break, click on the entry points of the other
 three roads, then back to the first road, forming a sort of diamond.
 3) Press t to convert the diamond into a circle.
 4) Press r to repeat the description of the first road onto the roundabout
 way, and add junction=roundabout.
 5) In turn, visit each of the roads, splitting them at the roundabout point.
 6) Delete all the interior roads.

 It's a bit clicky but it doesn't take tooo long.

 Steve


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-- 
Franc

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Re: [talk-au] hiding boundary=administrative by default

I've submitted a request for Potlatch.
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2583#preview

Boy what a weird thread. I'm still puzzling over how this:

Steve: Hear, hear. Would be good in potlatch too.

turned into:
John: Your post was completely useless, why didn't you just post a bug
instead of trying to make other people do it?
...
John: I'm not nagging anyone, I'm also not going to file bugs for software I
almost never use either.
...
John: I don't use potlatch so the cost v benefit for me is too high.

Heh.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:


 My 2 cents: anything that is less important than tertiary is:

 1) if it is a named/public road:
  * residential if lined primarily with people's homes and used
 primarily by people accessing those homes
  * unclassified otherwise
 2) service otherwise (unnamed or restricted access)

 When I say named/public I mean it has a normal street sign and is
 accessible to the general public. I'm not suggesting this is a nice
 tagging scheme, but it's what I use, and at least it isn't very hard
 to apply here, IMHO.


What about service roads? They're lined with houses, and used primarily by
people accessing those homes. Surely highway=service.

Also, what about weird dinky little strets you sometimes get in suburbia
that are paved with red bricks or something equally creative, but are also
the primary means of access to houses? Residential or service?

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Franc Carter wrote:
 I believe (correctly ?) that in general roundabouts don't have names
 in Australia
Some do, but the majority don't
South Hay Roundabout (the first in NSW, 1974)
Goolgowi Roundabout (by common usage)
Kissell's Roundabout with a sign in place to declare it so.

Probably another 50 unnamed roundabouts in the region


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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009-12-28 Thread John Henderson

Steve Bennett wrote:

 Also, what about weird dinky little strets you sometimes get in suburbia 
 that are paved with red bricks or something equally creative, but are 
 also the primary means of access to houses? Residential or service?

highway=living_street if signage says that pedestrians have priority, 
and the speed limit is very low.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009-12-28 Thread Roy Wallace

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 My 2 cents: anything that is less important than tertiary is:

 1) if it is a named/public road:
  * residential if lined primarily with people's homes and used
 primarily by people accessing those homes
  * unclassified otherwise
 2) service otherwise (unnamed or restricted access)

 What about service roads? They're lined with houses, and used primarily by 
 people accessing those homes. Surely highway=service.

That depends what you mean by service road. Following the scheme
given by 1) and 2) above: If it's named/public, highway=residential.
Otherwise, highway=service.

 Also, what about weird dinky little strets you sometimes get in suburbia that 
 are paved with red bricks or something equally creative, but are also the 
 primary means of access to houses? Residential or service?

Again, if named/public, highway=residential, otherwise
highway=service. That's what I do, anyway. If not fantastic, at least
it's simple. But this is now off-topic.

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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009/12/29 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
 That depends what you mean by service road. Following the scheme
 given by 1) and 2) above: If it's named/public, highway=residential.
 Otherwise, highway=service.

I generally tag lane ways as highway=service, as that's what they
generally are, service access to the rear of residential properties.

 Also, what about weird dinky little strets you sometimes get in suburbia 
 that are paved with red bricks or something equally creative, but are also 
 the primary means of access to houses? Residential or service?

 Again, if named/public, highway=residential, otherwise
 highway=service. That's what I do, anyway. If not fantastic, at least
 it's simple. But this is now off-topic.

like the other John said, highway=living_street, and also they
generally have low speed limits (10-30km/hr) and a lot of foot
traffic, but pedestrians don't have to have right of way...

eg Mary Street in Gympie, speed limit is 20km/hr from memory, lots of
speed humps that double as pedestrian crossings:

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=gympieie=UTF8hq=hnear=Gympie+Queenslandll=-26.189505,152.660662spn=0,359.981976z=17layer=ccbll=-26.189467,152.660565panoid=zzm50GIV5YChxCFyE8G55gcbp=12,113.26,,0,5.05

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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009/12/29 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
 What about service roads? They're lined with houses, and used primarily by
 people accessing those homes. Surely highway=service.

Ask 10 people and you'd probably get 10 different answers...

 Also, what about weird dinky little strets you sometimes get in suburbia
 that are paved with red bricks or something equally creative, but are also
 the primary means of access to houses? Residential or service?

Use either, and set the width=* tag or lanes=1 to indicate it's narrow...

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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

2009/12/29 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
 1) if it is a named/public road:
  * residential if lined primarily with people's homes and used
 primarily by people accessing those homes
  * unclassified otherwise

In Australia unclassified usually only applies to rural roads, at
least that's what was agreed upon before I was involved, although the
Europeans also use it for industrial areas that are wider/straighter
than their narrow windy little residential streets. As a result any
routing software made by Europeans will favour unclassified over
residential.

 2) service otherwise (unnamed or restricted access)

These days all public roads should be named, this was part of the
renumbering of rural properties thing to uniquely identify places, the
road number + road name + closest locality.

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Re: [talk-au] Wrong way round the roundabout

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote:
 These days all public roads should be named,

note should
I couldn't get find a name for one rural road, emailed the relevant Council 
(Cabonne Shire) and the naming proposal was stuck somewhere in the 
bureaucracy.


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Re: [Talk-br] B250C - Atualização do Grid - 23/12/ 2009

2009-12-28 Thread Flávio Henrique

Eu estava trabalhando no Estado de Goiás (estava pois agora estou de férias
em Goiânia) e estou com 70% dos municípios interligados.

A maioria do meu grid está verde.

Acho que quando eu terminar Goiás várias rotas para outras capitais fique
melhor pois inúmeras rodovias no Estado estavam quebradas.

A paz e um ótimo ano novo para todos!


Flávio Henrique


There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand
binary, and those who don't



2009/12/24 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org



 2009/12/23 Rodrigo Avila rodr...@avila.net.br

 Pelo jeito, vamos continuar com problemas em conectar Manaus ao resto
 do mapa, pois o roteador do cloudmade não reconhece rotas por balsa.

 http://developers.cloudmade.com/issues/show/90

 --
 Rodrigo de Avila
 Analista de Desenvolvimento

 +55 51 9733.3488 • rodr...@avila.net.br • www.avila.net.br






 Adiciono um noticia do Manaus no ticket, viu que o ticket tem alto
 prioridade.
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Re: [Talk-br] B250C - Atualização do Grid - 23/12/ 2009

2009-12-28 Thread Aun Johnsen

2009/12/28 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

 Eu estava trabalhando no Estado de Goiás (estava pois agora estou de férias
 em Goiânia) e estou com 70% dos municípios interligados.

 A maioria do meu grid está verde.

 Acho que quando eu terminar Goiás várias rotas para outras capitais fique
 melhor pois inúmeras rodovias no Estado estavam quebradas.

 A paz e um ótimo ano novo para todos!


 Flávio Henrique

 
 There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand
 binary, and those who don't
 


 2009/12/24 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org



 2009/12/23 Rodrigo Avila rodr...@avila.net.br

 Pelo jeito, vamos continuar com problemas em conectar Manaus ao resto
 do mapa, pois o roteador do cloudmade não reconhece rotas por balsa.

 http://developers.cloudmade.com/issues/show/90

 --
 Rodrigo de Avila
 Analista de Desenvolvimento

 +55 51 9733.3488 • rodr...@avila.net.br • www.avila.net.br






 Adiciono um noticia do Manaus no ticket, viu que o ticket tem alto
 prioridade.
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Quando chegando em casa (achou dia 7) eu tem 3 script de distancias eu vai
rodar, um do estes de tudo municipos do Espirito Santo. Os otros e tudos os
capitais nacional do America Sul, e os cidades do Via Panamericana. Ver no
mio diario [1] (em ingles). Agora nao tem muito tempo para contribuer pela
OSM, algum dias poder entra com Potlatch a fazer tracings do Yahoo, mas nao
tem tempo para pega mais trilhas. Precisar ajuda para connectar mais
municipos no Espirito Santo, o area nao tem Yahoo HiRes.


[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Skippern/diary/9035
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Re: [Talk-is] Vallar- og Helluhverfi í Hafnarfirð i

2009-12-28 Thread Svavar Lúthersson

Hæ.

Ætlaði að láta ykkur vita að þessi patch virkaði og hélt ég upp á það 
með því að taka slatta af götum í Hvömmunum 
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.06011lon=-21.9536zoom=16layers=B000FTF).
 
Einnig keyrði ég dáldið mikið í Lindunum og Sölunum í Kópavogi 
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.09643lon=-21.8588zoom=15layers=B000FTF)
 
en hef ekki sett það inn á OSM. Til að spara tíma gerði ég tvö stór 
trace (Lindir og Salir) og engin götunöfn skráð niður á blað (þetta tók 
samt sem áður 2-3 klst.). Einhver sem þekkir til í hverfinu gæti 
hugsanlega fyllt inn nöfnin þegar göturnar koma inn á.

Með kveðju / With regards,
Svavar Lúthersson (sva...@kjarrval.is)
s. 863-9900



Svavar Lúthersson wrote:
 Ég rakst á patch til að láta Garmin Nuvi 200W skrá punkta niður á 
 sekúndufresti (f. útgáfu 4.00). Það vill svo til að ég á einmitt 
 svoleiðis tæki og ætla að prófa það ef ég hef tæki með HWID sem 
 patchinn er gefinn út fyrir (læt ykkur vita hvernig það virkar). Held 
 upp á það með upptöku nokkurra gatna í nágrenninu. Hef tækið sem þið 
 mæltuð með í huga ef patchinn virkar ekki. Slóðin á þennan patch er 
 http://www.malsingmaps.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9t=9014st=0sk=tsd=astart=120
  
 http://www.malsingmaps.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9t=9014st=0sk=tsd=astart=120
  
 (apply at your own risk).

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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

Hallo,

Stephan Wolff wrote:
 Entscheider muss nicht Diktator bedeuten. Viele Gruppen müssen 
 regelmäßig Entscheidungen treffen. Oberster Entscheider ist bei Vereinen 
 meist die Mitgliederversammlung, bei Hausgemeinschaften die 
 Eigentümerversammlung, bei GmbHs die Gesellschafterversammlung, etc.

In den allermeisten Faellen laufen solche demokratischen Strukturen 
auf eine Diktatur der Mehrheit hinaus. Im Grossen - also bei z.B. bei 
einem demokratischen Staat - gibt es eine ganze Anzahl von Mechanismen, 
die helfen, dass die Interessen der Minderheiten trotzdem zumindest 
beruecksichtigt werden. Im Kleinen verzichtet man oft darauf. Die 
Minderheit darf ihre Meinung sagen, aber wenn sie am Ende in der 
Abstimmung nur auf 49% kommt, dann war's das eben. Das ist einer der 
Gruende, warum ich fuer Freizeitprojekte das Motto rough consensus and 
running code jeder Art von Entscheidungsstruktur vorziehe.

 Aber wie soll man einen Standard verabschieden? 

Gar nicht. Da haben wir uns wohl missverstanden; das war genau das, was 
ich meinte, als ich sagte, dass ich gegen Entscheider bin. Ein wie auch 
immer verabschiedeter Standard wuerde ja wiederum bedeuten, dass man 
jemandem, der neu hinzukommt, so etwas sagen wuerde wie tja, Pech 
gehabt, dieser Zug ist bereits abgefahren, Du kannst ja auf der 
naechsten Jahreshauptversammlung einen Antrag stellen, wenn Du was 
aendern willst. Das halte ich nicht fuer wuenschenswert.

   Wir - die Mapping-Community - muessen uns in Fragen wie
 [...]
   einig sein und das entsprechend dokumentieren,
 
 Alle einig sein? :-)) Wenn das noch nicht mal zwei engagierten Mappern 
 gelingt ...

Ja, stimmt - weitgehend einig waere vielleicht richtiger. Wobei ich eben 
Wert darauf lege, dass es ausreicht, eine Einigung fuer heute zu 
erzielen, ohne den zementierten Anspruch, dass hieraus ein fuer die 
Zukunft gueltiger Beschluss wird.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

Erlich gesagt verstehe ich hier (Als routing-Maintainer)
das großer Problem nicht.

Eindeutige, vollständige und für maschinen umsetzbare Regeln
wie das was gerade in unserer Karte tatsächlich existiert für
interpretieren ist haben wir doch zusammengetragen

 1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
 3) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Computing_access_restrictions

 Matrix 2) ist leider nicht komplett, es fehlt zB. highway=track
Dann trag es bitte nach wenn es tracks gibt die eindeutig von
Autos allgemein und regelmäßig befahrbar sind sowie die zu erwartende
Durchschnitts-Geschwindigkeit (ohne die kann man es nicht auswerten).

Wenn jemand für seine Speziallösung eine expliziten Routing-Subgraphen
in unserem Strassen-Graphen benötigt kann er den gerne automatisch
erreichenn oder viel Spaß daran haben den manuell mit seinen eigenen
Tags irendwie zu mappen.
Wo ist das konkrete Problem und wo mindestens ein tatsächlich und unmittelbar
Betroffener?

Marcus

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Re: [Talk-de] Video-Tracking als Mapping-Hilfe

2009/12/27 Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:
 Am So Dezember 27 2009 glaubte Sven Sommerkamp zu wissen:
 Ich hatte spontan an die Möglichkeit gedacht Videos an die GPS Daten zu
 koppeln wie bei Fotos.
 Es ist ja schön einen Film von der Strecke die man gefahren ist zu haben,
 aber dann weiß man noch nicht wo ein bestimmter Teil des Videos aufgenommen
 wurde (jedenfalls nicht ohne größere Umstände).
 DABEI KÖNNTE DAS FURCHTBAR HILFREICH SEIN.
 Die Profis gehen ja genau auch so vor.

 Das würde dann eher für einen Camcorder oder ähnliches sprechen,
 bei dem man die Uhrzeit einstellen kann.

Auf jeden Fall WILL MAN einen AUTOFOCUS.
Billige fixed-focus Webcams bringen garnichts
außer farbigen Flecken.
(Hab ich schon vor ewig mal probiert.)

Marcus

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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

Hallo,

Marcus Wolschon wrote:
 Eindeutige, vollständige und für maschinen umsetzbare Regeln
 wie das was gerade in unserer Karte tatsächlich existiert für
 interpretieren ist haben wir doch zusammengetragen

Das ist ein guter Anfang, aber ich finde, dass diese Regeln durchaus 
noch konkreter sein koennten, und mir fehlt auch der Feedback-Kanal in 
Richtung der Mapper (was wird im Routing passieren, wenn ich das hier so 
und so tagge?). Fuer Maschinen umsetzbar ist eine Information der Art 
beware of highway=cattle_grid sicher nicht, und ob die Liste wirklich 
vollstaendig ist, kann ich so vom blossen Hinsehen auch nicht beurteilen.

 Wo ist das konkrete Problem und wo mindestens ein tatsächlich und unmittelbar
 Betroffener?

Jemand, der kein OSM-Insider ist, fuer den ist diese Seite eben erst der 
Anfang. Ein geeigneter Routing-Graph faellt da noch lang nicht raus.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] Video-Tracking als Mapping-Hilfe

Am Mo Dezember 28 2009 glaubte Marcus Wolschon zu wissen:
 2009/12/27 Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:

  Das würde dann eher für einen Camcorder oder ähnliches sprechen,
  bei dem man die Uhrzeit einstellen kann.
 
 Auf jeden Fall WILL MAN einen AUTOFOCUS.
 Billige fixed-focus Webcams bringen garnichts
 außer farbigen Flecken.
 (Hab ich schon vor ewig mal probiert.)

Jepp, die Action- Cams sind nicht wirklich für Aufnahmen in weiterer
Entfernung brauchbar. Zum Straßen erfassen (Schilder, Briefkasten usw.)
dürften die noch reichen, aber wenn man über 10m? 15m? Entfernung
was erfassen will, dürfte es IMO eng werden.

flo
-- 
Melchior FRANZ wrote:
[Unsinn][Melchior Franz in suse-linux]

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Re: [Talk-de] AIO - Welche Version läuft noch auf de m Garmin eTrex Legend???

2009-12-28 Thread Christoph Wagner

Es kotzt mich gerade irgendwie an. Ich meine es gibt Versionen, die
funktionieren und solche, die es nicht tun, ohne dass ich zwischendurch was
verändert hätte!
Ich hab wirklich absolut keine Ahnung, was da genau nicht mehr passt. Ich
bin leider gerade in Berlin und hab keinen Rechner dabei (muss mir immer
einen leihen) und hab selber das Problem, dass ich eigentlich mal meine
funktionierende Karte bräuchte.
Ist vielleicht noch jemand auf dem 26C3, der Bock hat mit mir zusammen zu
debuggen?

Grüße
Christoph
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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

2009-12-28 Thread Stephan Wolff

Moin!

Am 28.12.2009 09:31, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 Stephan Wolff wrote:
 Entscheider muss nicht Diktator bedeuten. Viele Gruppen müssen
 regelmäßig Entscheidungen treffen. Oberster Entscheider ist bei Vereinen
 meist die Mitgliederversammlung, bei Hausgemeinschaften die
 Eigentümerversammlung, bei GmbHs die Gesellschafterversammlung, etc.

 In den allermeisten Faellen laufen solche demokratischen Strukturen
 auf eine Diktatur der Mehrheit hinaus. Im Grossen - also bei z.B. bei
 einem demokratischen Staat - gibt es eine ganze Anzahl von Mechanismen,
 die helfen, dass die Interessen der Minderheiten trotzdem zumindest
 beruecksichtigt werden. Im Kleinen verzichtet man oft darauf. Die
 Minderheit darf ihre Meinung sagen, aber wenn sie am Ende in der
 Abstimmung nur auf 49% kommt, dann war's das eben. Das ist einer der
 Gruende, warum ich fuer Freizeitprojekte das Motto rough consensus and
 running code jeder Art von Entscheidungsstruktur vorziehe.

Du hast in Vereinen offenbar weit schlechtere Erfahrungen gemacht als 
ich. Die meisten Abstimmungen in meinen Vereinen erhielten eine Mehrheit 
nach Sachargumenten und nicht um jemandem zu schaden.
Gerade bei OSM sind die Verbindungen der Teilnehmer eher locker, so dass 
ich kaum die Gefahr einer Gruppenbildung und Unterdrückung der 
Minderheit sehe.
In der großen Politik ist die Entscheidungsfindung schon komplexer. Dort 
gibt es Zustimmung je nach Parteizugehörigkeit des Antragstellers, 
versteckten Lobbyismus und eigene wirtschaftliche Interessen der 
Volksvertreter. Man betrachte als Beispiel das 
Zugangserschwerungsgesetz aka Zensurgesetz, das mit großer Mehrheit 
verabschiedet wurde aber jetzt von fast niemandem mehr gewollt wird.

In diesem Thread ging es um die Frage, ob ein Fahrradwegweiser mit 
bicycle=yes oder mit guidepost=bicycle o.ä. benannt wird. Wenn eine 
der beiden Varianten die Zustimmung der Mehrheit findet, würde ich es 
nicht als Diktatur der Mehrheit bezeichnen. Nur weil genau zwei Leute 
gegensätzlicher Meinung sind, muss die Abstimmung nicht 51% zu 49% 
ausgehen, es kann sich auch 80% zu 20% ergeben.

 Gar nicht. Da haben wir uns wohl missverstanden; das war genau das, was
 ich meinte, als ich sagte, dass ich gegen Entscheider bin. Ein wie auch
 immer verabschiedeter Standard wuerde ja wiederum bedeuten, dass man
 jemandem, der neu hinzukommt, so etwas sagen wuerde wie tja, Pech
 gehabt, dieser Zug ist bereits abgefahren, Du kannst ja auf der
 naechsten Jahreshauptversammlung einen Antrag stellen, wenn Du was
 aendern willst. Das halte ich nicht fuer wuenschenswert.

Gerade als Neuling freut man sich doch über Orientierunghilfen. Wenn ich 
einer Gruppe beitrete, erwarte ich nicht, dass dann alle Abstimmungen 
der letzten Jahre wiederholt werden.
Bei den Fragen, die auf der Liste diskutiert werden oder die von 
Frederik gestellt wurden, sehe ich keine Gefahr für unkorrigierbare 
Fehler.  Was wären denn Entscheidungen, die das Gesamtprojekt schädigen 
oder die einen Neuling an der Mitarbeit hindern würden?

Viele Grüße

Stephan


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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

Hallo,

Stephan Wolff wrote:
 Gerade bei OSM sind die Verbindungen der Teilnehmer eher locker, so dass 
 ich kaum die Gefahr einer Gruppenbildung und Unterdrückung der 
 Minderheit sehe.

Sicher nicht bewusst, aber unbewusst - ich habe zum Beispiel schon den 
Eindruck, dass die Mapper in Deutschland vieles doch (im internationalen 
Vergleich) recht aehnlich sehen. Und es gibt in Deutschland rund 50-100x 
so viele aktive Mapper wie in den USA. Sollen wir in Deutschland 
deswegen denen in den USA vorschreiben koennen, wie sie zu mappen haben? 
Sicherlich nicht.

Wenn wir nun irgendwo eine projektweite Abstimmung zwischen, 
beispielsweise, bicycle=yes und guidepost=bicycle machen, werden die 
Amerikaner unter Garantie unterrepresaentiert sein. Soll eine solche 
Abstimmung trotzdem auch fuer sie gueltig sein (so nach dem alten 
per-Anhalter-durch-die-Galaxis-Motto ihr haettet Euch ja an der 
Diskussion beteiligen koennen) - oder nur fuer genau jene, die an ihr 
teilgenommen haben?

 Gerade als Neuling freut man sich doch über Orientierunghilfen.

Gegen solche ist gar nichts einzuwenden! Ich selber schreibe ja gerade 
wieder an der dritten Auflage vom OSM-Buch, das ist auch nichts andres 
als eine Orientierungshilfe, oder irgendwelche Cheat Sheets, die die 
Community hervorbringt, oder die Wiki-Map Features. Mir ist bloss 
wichtig, dass alle diese Orientierungshilfen gemein haben, dass es 
sich hier um die Meinung derer handelt, die diese Hilfe 
zusammentragen, und nicht um eine garantierte Wahrheit oder eine 
Entscheidung des Projekts.

 Was wären denn Entscheidungen, die das Gesamtprojekt schädigen 
 oder die einen Neuling an der Mitarbeit hindern würden?

Ich denke, es gibt sehr viel Potential dafuer, sich kuenftige 
Entwicklungen durch vorschnelles Zementieren eines Schemas zu 
verschliessen. Haette man vor vier Jahren eine Entscheidung ueber die 
Features herbeigefuehrt, dann gaebe es heute class=highway, 
class=waterway und class=railway und sonst nicht viel ;-) damals haetten 
sich die Leute vermutlich an die Stirn getippt, wenn jemand mit dem 
heute ueblichen Schema angekommen waere - trotzdem blieb man offen fuer 
neues und ermoeglichte so, dass es zu dem kam, was wir heute haben. Mir 
ist wichtig, dass diese Offenheit bestehen bleibt.

Die *konkrete* Sache, um die es hier ging (guidepost etc.) ist wohl 
tatsaechlich banal genug, um ohne langes Ueberlegen abgehakt zu werden. 
Zugleich will ich aber die Frage zurueckgeben - ist diese Sache nicht 
*so* banal, dass ihre nicht-Klaerung in Kauf genommen werden kann, oder 
wuerde dies das Gesamtprojekt schaedigen oder einen Neuling an der 
Mitarbeit hindern?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] AIO - Welche Version läuft noch auf de m Garmin eTrex Legend???

Am Mo Dezember 28 2009 glaubte Christoph Wagner zu wissen:
 Es kotzt mich gerade irgendwie an. Ich meine es gibt Versionen, die
 funktionieren und solche, die es nicht tun, ohne dass ich zwischendurch was
 verändert hätte!

Was bei mir funktioniert hat: Karte in QLandkarteGT laden und
von dort auf das Garmin hochladen.
Was im Chat erwähnt wurde, die haben die gmapsupp.img direkt
auf die SD- Karte gespielt, das ging schief.

Vielleicht hilft dir das /etwas/ weiter.

flo
-- 
Ich habe dich jetzt mal hochgescored, damit ich dich in normalen 
newsgroups überhaupt sehe und dir auch dort im Zweifelsfall sagen kann,
daß du ein Arschloch bist.  [Werner Jakobi zu torc...@t-online.de in dag°]

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Re: [Talk-de] AIO - Welche Version läuft noch auf de m Garmin eTrex Legend???

2009-12-28 Thread Christoph Wagner

 Was bei mir funktioniert hat: Karte in QLandkarteGT laden und
 von dort auf das Garmin hochladen.
 Was im Chat erwähnt wurde, die haben die gmapsupp.img direkt
 auf die SD- Karte gespielt, das ging schief.

 Vielleicht hilft dir das /etwas/ weiter.


Ich denke das könnte tatsächlich etwas helfen. Ich hatte hier noch ein paar
Probleme mit meiner SD-Karte. Wenn die auch noch abkackt, dann kann man gar
nicht mehr ordentlich testen. Neu formatieren hat geholfen. Berlin konnte
ich schonmal erzeugen.

Hat eigentlich jemand ne Idee, warum dev.openstreetmap.de/aio nicht
funktioniert?

Na jedenfalls hab ich jetzt schon ein paar Ideen, was bei der Karte nicht
passt!

Grüße
Christoph
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Re: [Talk-de] Video-Tracking als Mapping-Hilfe

2009/12/28 Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:
 Jepp, die Action- Cams sind nicht wirklich für Aufnahmen in weiterer
 Entfernung brauchbar. Zum Straßen erfassen (Schilder, Briefkasten usw.)
 dürften die noch reichen, aber wenn man über 10m? 15m? Entfernung
 was erfassen will, dürfte es IMO eng werden.

Nein.
a) Du unterschätzt die benötigte Auflösung wenn niemand
die Kamera genau vor das Schild hängt sondern man nur
mit einer fix montierten Kamera vorbei fährt.

b) Du unterschätzt die Entfernung zwischen Fahrzeug und
Schild und wie sich diese Entfernung ständig ändert.

Es würde mich nach meinen eigene Experimenten sehr wundern
wenn du erkennen kannst ob die Zahl auf einem großen
Tempo-Schild jetzt 2 oder 3 Stellen hat.
Von der tatsächlichen Zahl oder gar den vergleichsweise winzigen
Strassenschildern ganz zu schweigen.

Marcus

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[Talk-de] dev.openstreetmap.de down?

2009-12-28 Thread Georg Lutz

Hallo,

zumindest über http bekomme ich grad keine Connections.

Gruß
  Georg
-- 
Georg

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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

2009-12-28 Thread Ulf Lamping

Am 28.12.2009 14:01, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 Die *konkrete* Sache, um die es hier ging (guidepost etc.) ist wohl
 tatsaechlich banal genug, um ohne langes Ueberlegen abgehakt zu werden.
 Zugleich will ich aber die Frage zurueckgeben - ist diese Sache nicht
 *so* banal, dass ihre nicht-Klaerung in Kauf genommen werden kann, oder
 wuerde dies das Gesamtprojekt schaedigen oder einen Neuling an der
 Mitarbeit hindern?

Die Aussage das ist banal kannst du doch - für sich gesehen - bei fast 
jeder Tagging Diskussion machen. Für was wir uns jetzt im konkreten Fall 
guidepost entscheiden, wird das Projekt OSM mit Sicherheit nicht zum 
Scheitern bringen - und wenn wir uns nicht entscheiden geht die Welt 
auch nicht unter.


Ich tue mich allerdings inzwischen sehr schwer, bei der JOSM 
Kartendarstellung aus dem Dickicht der Tags und deren manchmal sogar 
widersprüchlichen Definitionen noch irgendwas sinnvolles auf den 
Bildschirm zu bringen. Je schwammiger und ungeklärter die Definitionen 
sind, je häufiger für bestehende Tags neue Definitionen gefunden werden, 
desto schwieriger wird es.

Dabei ist es auch nicht hilfreich, wenn ich eine bestimmte Definition im 
Kopf habe und ein Anwender ein trac Ticket schreibt mit einer ganz 
anderen ;-)


Jede einzelne banale (nicht-)Entscheidung ist erstmal für sich nicht 
sooo schlimm. Aber ein ganzer Haufen von solchen (nicht-)Entscheidungen 
führt dann dazu, daß irgendwann keiner mehr durchblickt.

Man kann sich jetzt trefflich drüber streiten, ob das nicht eigentlich 
schon längst der Fall ist ;-)

Gruß, ULFL

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Re: [Talk-de] dev.openstreetmap.de down?

2009-12-28 Thread Stefan Dettenhofer (StefanDausR)

Hallo Georg,

Georg Lutz schrieb:
 zumindest über http bekomme ich grad keine Connections.
   


der Server selber läuft, aber der apache scheint gerade down zu sein!

Gruß,
Stefan



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Re: [Talk-de] dev.openstreetmap.de down?

2009-12-28 Thread Sven Geggus

Stefan Dettenhofer (StefanDausR) o...@dentro.info wrote:

 der Server selber läuft, aber der apache scheint gerade down zu sein!

*argh* der logrotate weiss natürlich nichts von meiner
security-Einstellung, dass der apache nicht mehr als root läuft :(

Ist repariert, geht wieder!

Gruss

Sven

P.S.: Warum postet ihr eigentlich hier und schickt nicht einfach eine
Email ad...@openstreetmap.de?

-- 
Um Kontrolle Ihres Kontos wiederzugewinnen, klicken Sie bitte auf das
Verbindungsgebrüll. (aus einer Ebay fishing Mail)

/me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] dev.openstreetmap.de down?

2009-12-28 Thread Georg Lutz

On 2009-12-28 18:07, Sven Geggus wrote:
 
 P.S.: Warum postet ihr eigentlich hier und schickt nicht einfach eine
 Email ad...@openstreetmap.de?
 

Naja, man muß erstmal die Kontak-Adresse kennen. Aber es hat ja
geklappt, Vermutung war, daß einer der vielen Mitlesenden entweder das
Problem gleich fixt oder zumindest weiss, wenn man am besten
benachrichtigt. :)

Gruß
  Georg

-- 
Georg

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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

Am 28. Dezember 2009 03:02 schrieb Stephan Wolff s.wo...@web.de:

 ...Alle drei Monate eine
 Abstimmung über 20 Fragen auf einer Webseite machen, bei der jeder eine
 Stimme hat, der seit sechs Monaten einen Account hat und an zehn Tagen
 etwas geändert hat?



so streng sind unsere Regeln ja gar nicht. Jeder, der einen Account hat,
darf sofort abstimmen, jeder darf alles zur Abstimmung vorbringen, und zur
Verabschiedung eines Beschlusses reichen schon 15 Ja und mehr Ja als
sonstige Stimmen. Und das bei mittlerweile über 180.000 eingetragenen Usern.
Da sowieso jeder eintragen kann, was er will, kannst Du allerdings auch die
Befolgung der Ergebnisse nicht verpflichtend durchsetzen - zum Glück ;-)

Gruß Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] dev.openstreetmap.de down?

2009-12-28 Thread Sven Geggus

Georg Lutz georg-l...@georglutz.de wrote:

 Naja, man muß erstmal die Kontak-Adresse kennen.

Die Adresse steht im Wiki bei der Beschreibung der Server.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Microsoft ist offenbar die einzige Firma, die in der Lage ist, ein mit
Office nicht kompatibles Bürosoftwarepaket einzuführen.
(Florian Weimer in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)
/me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Video-Tracking als Mapping-Hilfe

Am Mo Dezember 28 2009 glaubte Marcus Wolschon zu wissen:
 2009/12/28 Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:
  Jepp, die Action- Cams sind nicht wirklich für Aufnahmen in weiterer
  Entfernung brauchbar. Zum Straßen erfassen (Schilder, Briefkasten usw.)
  dürften die noch reichen, aber wenn man über 10m? 15m? Entfernung
  was erfassen will, dürfte es IMO eng werden.
 
 Nein.
 a) Du unterschätzt die benötigte Auflösung wenn niemand
 die Kamera genau vor das Schild hängt sondern man nur
 mit einer fix montierten Kamera vorbei fährt.
  
 b) Du unterschätzt die Entfernung zwischen Fahrzeug und
 Schild und wie sich diese Entfernung ständig ändert.
 
 Es würde mich nach meinen eigene Experimenten sehr wundern
 wenn du erkennen kannst ob die Zahl auf einem großen
 Tempo-Schild jetzt 2 oder 3 Stellen hat.
 Von der tatsächlichen Zahl oder gar den vergleichsweise winzigen
 Strassenschildern ganz zu schweigen.

Ich bin stillscheigend davon ausgegangen, daß da kurz angehalten
wird, die Kamera auf der gewünschte Objekt gerichtet wird und dann
erst weitergefahren wird.

Während der Fahrt wird das wohl schwer, da hast du recht.
Spätestens wenn die Straße etwas unebener ist...

flo
-- 
Gebrutstag ist doof. da wird man doch nur älter. [WoKo in dtk]

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Re: [Talk-de] Routing-Standards (war: Ulf-Mirko-Endlos-Diskussion)

2009-12-28 Thread Stephan Wolff

Moin!

Am 28.12.2009 14:01, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 Gerade bei OSM sind die Verbindungen der Teilnehmer eher locker, so dass
 ich kaum die Gefahr einer Gruppenbildung und Unterdrückung der
 Minderheit sehe.

 Sicher nicht bewusst, aber unbewusst - ich habe zum Beispiel schon den
 Eindruck, dass die Mapper in Deutschland vieles doch (im internationalen
 Vergleich) recht aehnlich sehen. Und es gibt in Deutschland rund 50-100x
 so viele aktive Mapper wie in den USA. Sollen wir in Deutschland
 deswegen denen in den USA vorschreiben koennen, wie sie zu mappen haben?
 Sicherlich nicht.

Du bist so antiautoritär eingestellt, dass du sicherlich nie jemandem 
etwas vorschreiben wirst :-)
Wer außer den momentan im Projekt Aktiven sollte etwas entscheiden? Man 
kann schlecht mit jeder Festlegung warten bis es 1 amerikanische 
Mapper gibt. Jede Entscheidung gilt natürlich nur so lange, bis sich 
eine neue Mehrheit für eine Änderung ausspricht.
Im Übrigen stehen in Deutschland und anderen europäischen Staaten mehr 
Radwegweiser als in den USA, so dass uns das Recht zur Benennung zusteht ;-)

 Mir ist bloss
 wichtig, dass alle diese Orientierungshilfen gemein haben, dass es
 sich hier um die Meinung derer handelt, die diese Hilfe
 zusammentragen, und nicht um eine garantierte Wahrheit oder eine
 Entscheidung des Projekts.

Ein Text Ulf ist dieser Meinung, Mirko ist gegenteiliger Meinung nützt 
mir nichts. Die Information die Mehrheit der Mapper hat sich für dieses 
Tag ausgesprochen ist eine Hilfe.
Ich fand es verwirrend, wenn im Wiki ein Tag beschrieben war (z.B. 
railway=disused), der Renderer aber nur eine andere Variante 
darstellte (railway=rail, disused=yes). Mit einer eindeutigen 
Festlegung gibt es (fast) nur Gewinner.

 Ich denke, es gibt sehr viel Potential dafuer, sich kuenftige
 Entwicklungen durch vorschnelles Zementieren eines Schemas zu
 verschliessen. Haette man vor vier Jahren eine Entscheidung ueber die
 Features herbeigefuehrt, dann gaebe es heute class=highway,
 class=waterway und class=railway und sonst nicht viel ;-) damals haetten
 sich die Leute vermutlich an die Stirn getippt, wenn jemand mit dem
 heute ueblichen Schema angekommen waere - trotzdem blieb man offen fuer
 neues und ermoeglichte so, dass es zu dem kam, was wir heute haben. Mir
 ist wichtig, dass diese Offenheit bestehen bleibt.

Hier geht es nur darum, einer konkreten Sache einen eindeutigen Namen zu 
geben, nicht um endgültige Festlegungen für das Gesamtprojekt.

 Die *konkrete* Sache, um die es hier ging (guidepost etc.) ist wohl
 tatsaechlich banal genug, um ohne langes Ueberlegen abgehakt zu werden.
 Zugleich will ich aber die Frage zurueckgeben - ist diese Sache nicht
 *so* banal, dass ihre nicht-Klaerung in Kauf genommen werden kann, oder
 wuerde dies das Gesamtprojekt schaedigen oder einen Neuling an der
 Mitarbeit hindern?

Eine nicht-Entscheidung führt nur zu kleinen Frustrationen, wenn ein 
eingegebenes Objekt nicht in der Karte erscheint oder wenn es einen 
Routerfehler verursacht. Jeder Editor, jeder Renderer, jeder Router und 
jeder Mapper müsste beide Varianten kennen und auswerten. Mehrere 
nicht-Entscheidungen bewirken größere Frustration, mehr Kartenfehler und 
immer wiederkehrende Diskussionen im Forum und den Mailinglisten.
Naja, die Diskussionen werden auch bei einer Klärung nicht enden. Einige 
Teilnehmer würden sich dann andere Streitfragen suchen...

Viele Grüße

Stephan


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Re: [Talk-de] Video-Tracking als Mapping-Hilfe

2009/12/28 Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:

 Ich bin stillscheigend davon ausgegangen, daß da kurz angehalten
 wird, die Kamera auf der gewünschte Objekt gerichtet wird und dann
 erst weitergefahren wird.

Auch das nützt dir bei Fix-Focus nichts wenn du nicht auch noch einen
Monitor anschließen und 10min am Objektiv scharf-stellen willst.

Wozu brauchst du eine Videokamera wenn du anhälst?
Das macht dir jede Digital-Knipse besser.

Marcus

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Re: [Talk-de] AIO - Welche Version läuft noch auf de m Garmin eTrex Legend???

2009-12-28 Thread Colin Marquardt

Am 28. Dezember 2009 13:00 schrieb Christoph Wagner
freemaps@googlemail.com:
 Es kotzt mich gerade irgendwie an. Ich meine es gibt Versionen, die
 funktionieren und solche, die es nicht tun, ohne dass ich zwischendurch was
 verändert hätte!

Es gab auch den Fall, dass malenki meinte, dass die Karte (de) vom
23.12. nicht ginge, sie aber bei mir dann doch lief.
Recht merkwuerdig das ganze. Evtl. solltet ihr md5sums fuer die
einzelnen Dateien bereitstellen, damit man ein Problem beim
Runterladen ausschliessen kann.

Cheers
  Colin

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Re: [Talk-de] AIO - Welche Version läuft noch auf de m Garmin eTrex Legend???

2009-12-28 Thread Colin Marquardt

Am 28. Dezember 2009 15:02 schrieb Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:
 Was im Chat erwähnt wurde, die haben die gmapsupp.img direkt
 auf die SD- Karte gespielt, das ging schief.

In meinem Fall hatte ich die Datei auch direkt auf die SD-Karte kopiert.

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Re: [Talk-de] Video-Tracking als Mapping-Hilfe

Am Di Dezember 29 2009 glaubte Marcus Wolschon zu wissen:
 2009/12/28 Florian Gross flor...@grossing.de:
 
  Ich bin stillscheigend davon ausgegangen, daß da kurz angehalten
  wird, die Kamera auf der gewünschte Objekt gerichtet wird und dann
  erst weitergefahren wird.
 
 Auch das nützt dir bei Fix-Focus nichts wenn du nicht auch noch einen
 Monitor anschließen und 10min am Objektiv scharf-stellen willst.

Einstellen? Die Action- Cams, die ich kenne haben in etwa
folgende Funktionen:

- einschalten, ausschalten
- evtl. höhere oder niedrigere Auflösung wählen
- Aufnahme starten und stoppen
 
 Wozu brauchst du eine Videokamera wenn du anhälst?
 Das macht dir jede Digital-Knipse besser.

Manche filmen auch recht gut. ;-)

Aber im Ernst: Mit welcher Kamera kannst du während des Fahrradfahrens
alles mögliche links und rechts der Fahrbahn/Straße festhalten, ohne
dauernd im Kreis zu fahren?

Mit einer Hand eine Kamera halten ist im Stadtverkehr unter Umständen
ungesund.

Am Kopf getragen könnte evtl. was bei rauskommen.

flo
-- 
Hey! Das iss Amtsanmaßung! Für solche Witze iss Moss zuständig.
Halt Du Dich da raus.  Flo hat meine stillschweigende Dultung, was das
Reißen derart grottenschlechter Witze angeht.  Ich muß ja auch an den
Lebensabend denken.  Im übrigen ißt Moss keine Amtsanmaßungen.
[Christian Mueller und Martin Leidig in suse-talk]

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[Talk-it] Colonne idranti per vigili del fuoco

2009-12-28 Thread Alessandro Pozzato



/ho spulciato in giro in cerca di un tag alla bisogna, ma non ho trovato
//nulla per indicare gli idranti ad uso dei vigili del fuoco. Non esiste
//il tag in questione?
/
Ci sarebbe questa proposta [1], e quest'altra per specificarne il tipo  [2].

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Fire_hydrant


Grazie mille per la dritta. Il fatto che da due anni sia tutto in 
naftalina mi fa pensare ad un certo disinteresse. Peccato, ho conosciuto 
un volontario vigile del fuoco che sta mappando tutti gli idranti della 
zona ad uso della sua stazione. E li sta inserendo in Google Maps...


Alessandro
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Re: [Talk-it] Colonne idranti per vigili del fuoco

2009-12-28 Thread gvf

Il giorno lun, 28/12/2009 alle 11.11 +0100, Alessandro Pozzato ha
scritto:
  ho spulciato in giro in cerca di un tag alla bisogna, ma non ho trovato
  nulla per indicare gli idranti ad uso dei vigili del fuoco. Non esiste
  il tag in questione?
  
  Ci sarebbe questa proposta [1], e quest'altra per specificarne il tipo  [2].
  
  [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant
  [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Fire_hydrant
 
 Grazie mille per la dritta. Il fatto che da due anni sia tutto in
 naftalina mi fa pensare ad un certo disinteresse. Peccato, ho
 conosciuto un volontario vigile del fuoco che sta mappando tutti gli
 idranti della zona ad uso della sua stazione. E li sta inserendo in
 Google Maps...

Probabilmente sarà dovuto al fatto che si tratta di un informazione che
non serve poi tutti i giorni, o almeno si spera :-) 

Comunque niente gli vieta di usare una Proposed feature (anzi nessuno
ti vieta di inventarti un tag). Quindi puo mapparli anche da noi usando
i tag proposti o studiandone di nuovi se si pensa che quelli proposti
non siano adeguati.
IMHO il tag amenity non mi sembra molto adatto, la proposta in tedesco
ho qualche difficoltà a capirla :-) ma mi sembra entri molto di più nei
dettagli. Bisognerebbe tradurla e studiarla...

-- 
Ciao Gio.


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Re: [Talk-it] Openstreet e Ipod Touch.

2009-12-28 Thread Stefano Pallicca

Il 27/12/2009 22:55, griso007 ha scritto:
 Ciao a tutti. Ho acquistato un Ipod touch e ho installato l'applicativo
 openstreen. Funziona benissimo.
   
Non conosco Openstreen - e non riesco a trovarlo - forse hai sbagliato a
scrivere il nome? :-P
 Adesso però ho una domanda.
 Se non ho accesso alla rete, come posso scaricare le mappe OSM sull'IPOD e
 calcolare un percorso? sembra che questo non sia possibile.
   
Puoi provare con l'applicazione Voxtrek. Ha ancora numerosi bug, ad
esempio spesso ti localizza al polo sud. Per ovviare a questo
inconveniente basta diminuire di molto lo zoom, e successivamente
zoomare sulla tua posizione attuale, che verrà identificata
correttamente. Tuttavia con Voxtrek puoi pianificare un viaggio quando
sei a casa e scaricare le mappe che ti serviranno quando non avrai una
connessione disponibile.
 Ha, conoscete un sw free da installare sull'ipod per mappare? 
   
Prova a cercare sull'app store Trails Lite o Easytrails GPS Lite. Io ho
da tempo acquistato la versione completa di Trails (2.99€) e mi trovo
benissimo. Funziona anche senza rete (ovviamente in questo caso non
sarai in grado di scaricare le mappe).
 Vi prego di non rispondere a questo post con argomenti differenti.

 Graziue mille.
   




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[Talk-it] josm e validator

2009-12-28 Thread Paolo Craveri

Buonasera a tutti
sto muovendo i primi passi con josm...
ho appena digitato una strada che ho taggato come highway=tertiary
name=Via Spina e ottengo questa segnalazione dal plugin validator:

strada senza un riferimento - combinazione illegale etichetta/valore


Cosa vuol dire?

Altra domanda da neofita: che cosa si deve scrivere nel campo
riferimento? (ad es. preimpostati-strade-tertiary)

ciao

-- 
-- 
Paolo

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Re: [Talk-it] centro congressi

2009/12/27 Samuele Battarra batta...@email.it

 aggiudicato, anche se su tagwatch ho visto usati in egual misura si
 conference_center che conference_centre



usiamo generalmente il modo inglese di scrivere, quindi centre invece di
center...

ciao,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-it] josm e validator