Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Josh Marshall]

Hi Ian,

You can copy+paste the URL when you’re looking at the section in question
on openstreetmap.org.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=menang%20drive#map=18/-34.96511/117.82114=D

I’ve turned the data layer on so you can just click on the nodes and ways
to see their details, and then you can copy that URL to reference it:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/853070680

So on to the question, I suspect it’s a router issue, but quite possibly
something to do with Menang Drive having tagging with bicycle=yes
cycleway:left=yes etc, but the Albany Highway ways not having anything of
the sort, not even lane quantity.

Probably not relevant, but that greater intersection looks like it’s been
mapped with a variety of aerial sources but without imagery offsets being
taken into account. The Maxar layer looks like the most recent, and once I
aligned that best I could (5.24, -9.89), there are still a number of roads
that are well off the imagery.

And the little bike diversions for merging across aren’t mapped… but good
riddance, they’re definitely designed by someone who thinks that it’s fine
for cyclists on major highways who could be doing 35 km/h to slam on the
brakes to take a 90º  turn to cross a lane… ugh.

On 7 Jun 2023, at 12:00 pm, Ian Steer  wrote:

My Garmin GPSMAP 66i gives misleading routing instructions at a new
intersection on Albany Highway near Albany when using OSM data.  I have
looked at the OSM data through JOSM and it all looks good.  I wondered if
anyone else can see what might be causing the strange routing instructions.

The explanation really needs pictures, so I’ve put them in Dropbox:

Screenshot 1 shows the first OSM way of the section in question
(highlighted in red) plus some annotations about the points where the GPS
has instructions for the two misleading manoeuvres:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk7pmpucvp9y5q6/screenshot%201.jpg?dl=0

Screenshot 2 just shows the other OSM way that covers the section in
question:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wpfaip74htzbnyw/screenshot%202.JPG?dl=0

Screenshot 3 shows the routing instructions on the GPS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hy8r91c5syvq4d/screenshot%203.JPG?dl=0

I don’t know how to give OSM way references, but the intersection is at
S34.9647 and E117.8205 (Menang Drive and Albany Highway)

Has anyone got any clues why the GPS would be doing what it is doing ?

Thanks

Ian
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

Absolutely no offense was taken, hence the winky ;)... it was solely the
moment of realisation of my current ignorance on the matter... which I
don't take as a bad thing. It's a new opportunity to learn more, so much
thanks for taking the time to respond comprehensively and not just 'RTFM'
me. Will process the rest of your lengthy message shortly.

It's quite related, but for anyone into waterways, topology, and
aethestics, I discovered 'Relative Elevation Maps' the other day, and they
are *stunning*... would love to do the Hunter in this style.

Intro: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/19b6bfe0c3aa454c853bd6d9b7228adf
Dan making amazing art:
https://twitter.com/geo_coe/status/1549953305110929408 and
https://dancoecarto.com
Tech howto: https://michaelpaulschramm.com/posts/2022-09-20-lidar-rem/


On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 11:56, stevea  wrote:

> Josh (and talk-au list):  My remarks certainly were not meant to be or
> seem like an attack, against you or anybody in particular.  I apologize to
> you for my remarks:  I did not mean to attack you and I am sorry it came
> across that way.  It was a reply to Joseph Crowell's remarks (his "side
> note," really) that relations are "a nightmare to work with within iD and
> one of the main reasons people switch to another editor."  I was concurring
> with Joseph and wanted to strengthen that with my added "positive" by
> suggesting another editor (JOSM), which I consider superior for editing
> relations (especially compared to iD).
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

OMG... I am drooling looking at what you've done here. Just switched the
0212 in your overpass query for 0210 (Hunter River) and zoomed into the
Newcastle region... and voilá: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vuY

Was this the changeset that did your GA import for my area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/102326974 ? I think all my changes
since then have been building on that. My context here: I like random
exploration, and a someday goal is paddleboarding the local catchment.
(I've already run or ridden a fair bit of it, watercraft required now...)

Back to my overpass link: The blue now tells me which ways are missing a
relation... I don't think I need to do one for every stream, but there's a
few major ones I've missed. And this raises some questions for me...

Where do things sit with putting tags on the relation vs on the individual
ways? Intermittent= and waterway= obviously change from way to way and so
go on them, but name, destination, wikidata, etc? Feels like that should be
all on the relation, but renderers may not use that? (Asking pragmatically,
I'm well-aware of not mapping for rendering. But it does annoy me when you
search for some feature that is obviously part of a greater whole, and
there's no indication from a returned way that such is the case.)

Thanks.


On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 11:53, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On 27/5/23 08:39, nwastra nwastra wrote:
> > I should add that I have only used the Surface Hydrology Lines from
> GeoScience Aust dataset for Qld catchments and as the data is drawn for
> many different sources across the country the perenniality may be not
> always be included.
>
> I admit I've been too lazy to publish the stuff I'd already done with
> the GA dataset. Rather than making people do it all again I've finally
> got round to putting it on GitHub https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams
>
> I have already imported in the named streams in NSW except for the area
> around Sydney. Mostly, again, due to laziness. As already pointed out
> the data all needs to be sanity checked against what's on the ground and
> that's really hard when it's under a city.
>
> The data is organised by AWRC catchment, so for Sydney you are looking at:
>
> https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II12.osm.gz
>
> which is the Hawkesbury River and
>
> https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II13.osm.gz
>
> which is Sydney Coast-Georges River
>
> You can use overpass turbo to see what is already mapped:
>
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpu (Hawkesbury River)
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpv (Sydney Coast-Georges River)
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

Hey stevea, was this warning on relations due to any particular remark in
this thread? ... I feel attacked! ;)  given I've used iD to edit relations
quite a bit: I don't usually edit them, but more just adding new ones.
Except for re-adding ways when they got deleted from a route, when
others changed them. I also wouldn't dream of touching the coastline. :)
I've always tried to be very careful to not break anything, but now I'm
concerned I've inadvertently done that. (Username is `neomanic` if you want
to critique my work.)

I realise this is a bit of a n00b question, but could you possibly provide
some pointers to the better _current_ documentation and resources on
understanding relations well and editing in JOSM? Now that OSM has been
around for a while, I find it overwhelming to sort through and figure out
what is current best practice, and so I've put off approaching learning
more with a structured approach.

Thanks.

On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 12:40, stevea  wrote:

> I've said all this before:  while editing relations in iD is technically
> possible, it is tedious and difficult in the opinion of many.  A great many
> existing relations have also been broken by people using iD (I can't count
> how many I have personally experienced).  I find editing relations with iD
> to also be a "nightmare," but I don't want to so viciously disparage iD,
> even as I do want to discourage others from using it as a reliable,
> suitable, comfortable, intuitive relation editor.  (It is not).
>
> That said, if you are going to edit relations (from this thread:  streams,
> waterways, coastlines, islands...but also many other more-sophisticated and
> complex-structured data) within OSM, please do so using an editor that
> strongly supports good relation editing.  I use JOSM and recommend it,
> though I realize that JOSM is not everybody's cup of tea, either.
>
> Think:  if you know nodes, ways and tags, but not relations, yet you want
> to edit data properly entered into OSM using relations (and which should
> ONLY be entered into OSM using relations), you must be able to edit
> relations.  And do so well, without more than the occasional minor error.
> OSM is not your sandbox for practice learning how to edit relations
> (poorly), though you are likely to do exactly that (in my opinion) using
> the iD editor to edit relations.  The map does not benefit by sloppy
> relations being entered by iD (or any editor).
>
> Learn the basics of OSM.  Next, learn "about" relations (their structure,
> conventions, the differing flavors of them...).  THEN learn HOW to edit
> relations using an editor that supports editing relations well, such as
> JOSM.  Though JOSM has a learning curve, it is worth it.  I do not consider
> iD to be a strong editor for relations, these are my opinions.  Thank you
> for reading.
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

On 26/05/2023 1:54 pm, Josh Marshall wrote:> But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks;> go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for>  instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section> for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area> was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some> monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood> and people complain about council not doing anyway…Just asking out of interest - what's the reason for using relations? Or is it specifically for the search that you mentioned?It’s recommended. From https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway“If a waterway is named from its source to its destination, it's strongly suggested that all of its ways be placed in a waterway relation. Doing this allows Nominatim to group the ways together and return exactly one named result per named waterway that exists in OpenStreetMap.”___
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

I map streams on the regular. Given most of what I map is bike + running single-track, streams are helpful as a clue to the local topography. But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks; go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood and people complain about council not doing anyway…Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a lot of it was done once and then never updated.Arguably most streams in Australia are intermittent, I don’t think the definition is totally locked down, but when they are isolated sections of standing water in between rain, that is intermittent in my mind.  On 26 May 2023, at 8:00 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:On Thu, 25 May 2023 at 22:26, Tom Brennan  wrote:I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around Sydney.

However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data 
in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?

I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But there 
are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.It's not a bad idea, as it would let anybody needing water in the bush, know that there's a creek over there, & also let you know that if you go this way, you may get wet feet! :-)But, do DCS Base & Topo differentiate between permanent & intermittent creeks?ThanksGraeme
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Josh Marshall]

I'm another big user of Strava for tracing... so thought I'd chime in with
my approach.

These days, not so simple to get access to the good heatmap direct in
editors, since they restricted the higher zoom levels to when you're logged
in. So since that change, when I'm in a rambling mood (which is most of the
time) I'll use the mobile app with both my own heatmap and the global one
on-screen to explore where I haven't been, and prioritise areas with
obvious heat but no OSM way in order to map them afterwards.

Actually got caught out in bushfire season once because I trusted OSM too
much, and had to bail out through an extended route that was closed.
Learned my lesson. I'm very slow to do it, but I have removed some tracks
in the past where there are no signs left on the ground... that was
definitely one time I didn't hesitate to do so.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 at 09:08, Adam Horan  wrote:

> According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strava and
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permissions/Strava there is
> permission to trace from the Strava heatmap.
>
> (Which is fair enough given the extensive use they make of OSM maps for
> display and routing)
>
> Adam
>
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 at 08:42, Michael Collinson  wrote:
>
>> I use Strava heatmaps only as a "referential" source, i.e. seeing
>> potentially missing or badly misaligned paths and then taking a walk that
>> way. In addition to other comments about using them directly, I'd also
>> wonder whether Strava copyright allows it but have not explicitly analysed.
>>
>> In Sweden, I have found them a great referential source, but then we have
>> "all man's right" and off-path walking is not generally an issue so there
>> are many useful informal paths.
>>
>> Mike
>> On 2023-02-26 22:10, Adam Horan wrote:
>>
>> My view is also that Strava heatmaps are insufficient on their own to
>> prove a track. They do show that a reasonable number of people have passed
>> along a particular route in recent times. They don't prove a path or track,
>> and they give no indication of permissions.
>>
>> However I did look for details of way 963735356 in the Strava heatmap,
>> and there's very little in Strava in that area. It's possible the user did
>> have the heatmap open in iD but didn't trace all the routes from there.
>> Some might be 'local knowledge'.
>>
>> I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to refine the route of
>> known tracks, especially if there's lots of tree cover and you can't see
>> the tracks too well in imagery.
>> 10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a single GPS track
>> which you might record yourself.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24, Tom Brennan  wrote:
>>
>>> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
>>> heatmaps?
>>>
>>> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped by
>>> an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
>>>
>>> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
>>> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
>>> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La
>>> Nina!
>>>
>>> Example:
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
>>> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>>>
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Re: [talk-au] NSW Bridal Track

[Josh Marshall]

Ah, I think I've let the mapping of tracks local to me influence my stance
too much. And for context of my interest here, my plan was to bikepack
the Track but that got put off due to covid and family.

The Australian guidelines don't say much about =tertiary, but bouncing over
to the main =tertiary page at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtertiary:
"Outside urban areas, tertiary roads are those with low to moderate traffic
which link smaller settlements such as villages or hamlets. For quieter
linking roads, consider using highway=unclassified instead."

Given this along with your points, leaving it set as unclassified is likely
the right call.

And this discussion so far has modified my overall view to be:
- tertiary: roads that are used as genuine links between two towns
- unclassified: if driving it is more a recreational activity than a need
for a thoroughfare, even if it links two localities
- track: more limited access for whatever reason: drivability, lesser
usage, gated, spurs from unclassified, fire trails, etc

I'd agree with 4WD recommended, if coming from the south most camp sites
> can be accessed with little trouble in a reasonable vehicle.
>

The signage says 4WD-only in all the photos I've seen. But I've also driven
on the initial portion of 4WD-only track in a 2WD. Is the solution to note
the signage somehow, but tag the actual ways as to their genuine
accessibility ie south section = recommended, north section = required?
(Back in the early days of GPS navigation I was routed out of Wombeyan
Caves on the eastern side, which was an... experience.)


On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 at 19:32, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 21/2/23 14:42, Josh Marshall wrote:
>
> Australian road tagging guidelines at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Roads 
> arguably
> override the general OSM guidelines, and they read:
>
> highway=track: "Service and access roads that aren't part of the general
> road network. Generally not paved, often not public access for
> vehicles."... in rural "Fire trails, forest drives, 4WD tracks, and similar
> roads.
>
> highway=unclassified is: "Minor roads that are neither tertiary or
> residential roads. Not generally through routes."
>
> Given that, I'd argue =track is the right option.
>
>
> The Bridal Track is open to the public, part of the general road network
> and a through route. It would never have been reopened if it was not for
> public money. at lest not reopened to the public.
>
> So from that you could say tertiary. I'd not go that far.
>
>
> A tangent, but I'm rather happy that iD _*finally_* fixed their English
> description for =track (it included "unmaintained" for a long time; many
> were quite annoyed at the original change to include that)... and I can't
> find any discussion about why they finally gave in and reverted it! Vested
> interest, since it along with =path are likely my two most used, given I
> map a lot of bush with fire trails and run/ride singletrack.
>
>
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 at 09:23, cleary  wrote:
>
>>
>> The name should not constrain the classification of the highway  (e.g.
>> Dowling Track, Ooodnadatta Track). And, as I've commented previously in
>> other threads, the DCS NSW Base Map can be quite outdated.
>>
>> However, a quick look at a YouTube video suggests that the Bridle Track
>> should still be tagged as 4WD only (it was signposted as such and probably
>> still is). Wikipedia reports that part of the route is new, apparently a
>> diversion around the landslide that blocked the old track at Monaghans
>> Bluff. I'd prefer not to change the OSM tags etc until someone surveys the
>> route.
>>
>
> The Bridal Track has been brought up to a very high standard ... so the
> pollies would have no trouble opening ! It will not stay that way - I have
> been told no water truck was used in the constructions ..
>
> I'd agree with 4WD recommended, if coming from the south most camp sites
> can be accessed with little trouble in a reasonable vehicle. The problem is
> the hill going upto Hill End .. t6hat can get lost of erosion .. and it is
> narrow with blind corners.
>
> I do know the Track fairly well from a number of trips. The diversion
> looks to be less of an obstruction compared to the more difficult bits, at
> leas until it is weathered..
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2023, at 9:17 PM, Warin wrote:
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > This track is now continuous having been closed due to a rock fall and
>> > road collapse at Monaghans Bluff.
>> >
>> >
>> > Given the importance of the road and that it is not really a 'track' in
>> > th

Re: [talk-au] NSW Bridal Track

[Josh Marshall]

Australian road tagging guidelines at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Roads
arguably
override the general OSM guidelines, and they read:

highway=track: "Service and access roads that aren't part of the general
road network. Generally not paved, often not public access for
vehicles."... in rural "Fire trails, forest drives, 4WD tracks, and similar
roads.

highway=unclassified is: "Minor roads that are neither tertiary or
residential roads. Not generally through routes."

Given that, I'd argue =track is the right option.

A tangent, but I'm rather happy that iD _*finally_* fixed their English
description for =track (it included "unmaintained" for a long time; many
were quite annoyed at the original change to include that)... and I can't
find any discussion about why they finally gave in and reverted it! Vested
interest, since it along with =path are likely my two most used, given I
map a lot of bush with fire trails and run/ride singletrack.


On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 at 09:23, cleary  wrote:

>
> The name should not constrain the classification of the highway  (e.g.
> Dowling Track, Ooodnadatta Track). And, as I've commented previously in
> other threads, the DCS NSW Base Map can be quite outdated.
>
> However, a quick look at a YouTube video suggests that the Bridle Track
> should still be tagged as 4WD only (it was signposted as such and probably
> still is). Wikipedia reports that part of the route is new, apparently a
> diversion around the landslide that blocked the old track at Monaghans
> Bluff. I'd prefer not to change the OSM tags etc until someone surveys the
> route.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2023, at 9:17 PM, Warin wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > This track is now continuous having been closed due to a rock fall and
> > road collapse at Monaghans Bluff.
> >
> >
> > Given the importance of the road and that it is not really a 'track' in
> > the OSM sense (Roads for mostly agricultural or forestry uses) ... and
> > that the DCS Base Map places it at least tertiary level I would think
> > that all of this 'track' be classified in OSM as 'unclassified'.
> >
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks

[Josh Marshall]

Hi Graeme and all,

I tasked the kid with drawing the ideal surf map, and he’s really stuck
into it… and it’s given me more to think about how the features should be
drawn.

On 25 Aug 2022, at 9:20 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

Wondering whether you need to have conditional at all?

How about

sport=surfing
surfing:direction=NE
surfing:size=4ft
surfing:wind=W-SW

& make it clear in the wiki that these are the typical / usual conditions.



I take away the point from your comment that surf breaks are *always*
conditional, so it’s superfluous to name them so.

I agree.

I like the idea of separate tags too:
- some may be more necessary than others
- better than trying to cram them all into one
- can be added to over time, rather than a formalised :conditional=

surfing:size=4ft


One thing about size. Here at least (GC) surf reports always quote feet,
not metres. Does that change by location?


Always feet. When surfers talk about wave size, it’s much like fishing
aficionados talking about the size of their catch, if you know what I’m
getting at.

But “size” is variable, what would need to be tagged is “minimum swell
size” for a break to be rideable… which is a more scientific measure and
reported formally.

I found this article to be the most succinct and detached summary of
conditions required for particular breaks:
https://unravelsurftravel.com/understanding-waves/

Cheers,
Josh
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks

[Josh Marshall]

Hi Frederik,

At first I was a little annoyed at what I thought to be obvious things to
consider in your message, as what I am trying to do with this discussion is
exactly to cover those issues... but I always run a little search first,
and that very much changed my tune to saying I am quite honoured to have
you reply to my little proposal. :)

I am also a non-surfer, but my son is approaching elite level (it's not
from my side of the family), and so this is somewhat a collaborative
effort, and he has become quite engaged by the thought of an open
repository of information on surfing.

He has already prepared a spreadsheet with all the attributes required to
describe a break, which are practically identical already to those
suggested by Phil Wyatt in the response following yours. The primary
"conditions" are swell direction and size, wind direction and tide. I have
yet to fully think them through, but my instinction is to do it in a
fashion similar to `:conditional` (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions), perhaps:

sport=surfing
surfing:conditional=swell-direction@NE-E;swell-size@3m+;wind@S-WSW (and so
on)

Now in another sense this is getting a bit ahead of the game... I am
thinking as a part of this there would need to be a dedicated map
server+site for highlighting the surfing options (hopefully I will have the
time for this)... and until there is I think it's okay to experiment with
the tagging. Because in general a surfer would also be able to determine
the conditions by looking at the map and a current weather forecast.

So I am collating all these thoughts, and will put them together into the
discussion on the sport=surfing tag to take it forward, while doing a
little experimentation in my local area.

Regards,
Josh

On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 at 20:48, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> non-Australian and non-surfer here but please remember that stuff you
> map in OSM must be reasonably verifiable.
>
> If you map a great surf spot which only exists when some external
> conditions align, then it might be hard for others to verify (they'd
> have to wait for the conditions to align).
>
> As a non-surfer I would assume that "the wind and waves are just right"
> is something that could make a perfect surf spot nearly everywhere, and
> surfers would not be helped by a map showing lots of spots that might be
> great if "the wind and waves are just right" ;)
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks

[Josh Marshall]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 at 20:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23/8/22 18:15, Josh Marshall wrote:
>
> tl;dr - I’m interested in getting more surfing-centric tagging into OSM,
> hopefully leading to an open surfing map. And want to check on what would
> be appropriate. In an analogous way to how cycling is treated, along with
> trail running, my own sports of choice.
>
> Hi, welcome.
>
Thanks! But I've been lurking and sporadically posting here for a long time
now. I see what goes on! But mainly stick to editing my local area and
anywhere I visit.

Mostly land based things. Can you give a few examples?
>
> I found this one,
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1009395310
>
> looks to be both surfing sand swimming...
>
Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing. And better yet, why aren't our
beaches, like the typical patrolled locations marked in such a way as that
swimming_area too? Scope creep, anyone? This gets me more engaged, because
I go to the beach plenty even if I don't surf myself. Starting to smell
like an Aussie wiki page on how to tag beaches and surf spots.

This is my local... I spend plenty of time here, even sometimes just parked
in my van and remote working. Perhaps I should do some mapping/tapping
based on what we discuss there, then bring it back for further chat?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-32.92433/151.79302

Are there any concerns on me taking the idea and running with it? It would
> be good at least to flesh out the wiki page on what tags can or should be
> applied. I already have a spreadsheet from the grommie on the various
> attributes of a surf break (left and right waves, tide/swell/wind
> required). Does this require a formal proposal?
>
> There are those that say yes to a formal proposal, others nay.
>
> You may have noticed my Hills Hoist thing.. I raised it here to see what
> reaction I got and to seek ideas. I have now raised it on the tagging group
> for more of an international view and will raise it on the russian wiki
> page on the 'umbrella' tag.
>
> I would think you may get some feed back here to start with.. then raise
> it on the talk page
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:sport%3Dsurfing
>
Yep, your post on the Hills Hoist probably helped prompt me into this
idea... and I've added my own thoughts there. Hills Hoist mapathon, anyone?

I might try mapping just a handful of the local breaks to tease out some of
the nuance, then write up and post on the wiki talk page.

As the break would be a water feature I'd use a water tag
> waterway=surf_break ??? That could be a way where the break first occurs ..
> possibly sub tags such as break=left/right/* This would be the physical
> feature for use with sport=surfing...
>
> Just my idea.. you may have more/different?
>
That's exactly the sort of thing I was after. It is *visible* after all,
just a bit hard to explain, so a waterway=surf_break makes sense.

My own pause relates to how even though surf breaks are physical locations
> (would be mapped as either areas or points), they are tied to underwater
> features and topography such as reefs, not necessarily visible from the
> surface. And so will rely heavily on local knowledge. But if not rendered
> by default, there’s no problem with that, right?
>
> The surf break may be visible on some of the satellite imagery. Mapbox off
> Tamarama Beach, Sydney looks large.
>

Yep, noted as well. I checked the ones near me... some visible on aerial,
some not. Guessing it depends on conditions!
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[talk-au] Mapping surf breaks

[Josh Marshall]

tl;dr - I’m interested in getting more surfing-centric tagging into OSM, 
hopefully leading to an open surfing map. And want to check on what would be 
appropriate. In an analogous way to how cycling is treated, along with trail 
running, my own sports of choice.


The long story:
My teenage son is quite the avid bodyboarder, and we just got back from at 
weekend at the Aussie national championships in Port Macquarie… Which leads 
into me realising as I try to wrap my head around the sport, that there’s very 
little surfing-centric content in OSM. Doubly strange in Australia. And we’re 
homeschooling, so… hello geography, cartography, environment, etc, lessons.

I printed out a map of our local (Newcastle) beaches using fieldpapers.org, and 
got him to draw them in, then uploaded it.  The FP page is here: 
https://fieldpapers.org/snapshots/ubcffu8v but that doesn’t seem to display the 
output properly, download the geotiff to view. Here’s the map tiles of it: 
http://tiles.fieldpapers.org/snapshots/ubcffu8v/{z}/{x}/{y}.png

I looked up what was already present in OSM, and it centres on the tag 
sport=surfing, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsurfing 
According to the overpass query https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1lgi it is already 
applied to a few surf breaks (sometimes not very precisely), surf shops, 
venues, and learn-to-surf organisations. I will explore more thoroughly.

Are there any concerns on me taking the idea and running with it? It would be 
good at least to flesh out the wiki page on what tags can or should be applied. 
I already have a spreadsheet from the grommie on the various attributes of a 
surf break (left and right waves, tide/swell/wind required). Does this require 
a formal proposal? 

My own pause relates to how even though surf breaks are physical locations 
(would be mapped as either areas or points), they are tied to underwater 
features and topography such as reefs, not necessarily visible from the 
surface. And so will rely heavily on local knowledge. But if not rendered by 
default, there’s no problem with that, right?___
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Re: [talk-au] Path versus Footway

[Josh Marshall]

My 2¢ here, as both an avid runner/hiker and bike rider (in NSW). Most of my 
editing is along those lines, along with tracks through the bush when I go 
exploring. I’m particularly conscious of routing issues and fixing them if 
there’s an issue†, given I use a number of route planners that use OSM††.

The following is how I have been tagging with new ways. I don’t change existing 
ones unless there’s a good reason.

I have understood highway=footway as paths that are an alternative to a road 
that runs parallel, and are only for use by pedestrians for their safety and 
comfort. 

My stance here was most likely due to my initial exposure via iD’s "Foot Path”* 
so I associated them with the common definition. And footway is by default 
bicycles=undesignated, which suits Australia well with our differing laws on 
bicycles allowed on footpaths.^

Whereas once they diverge from being the "pedestrian lane” of roads and become 
a separate access route in their own right, I have been tagging as 
highway=path. Particularly as these are default access to all traffic except 
vehicular, and specifically bicycle=yes.

(highway=cycleway is also a little tricky in its overlap with =path. At least 
around me, it seems the major shared paths that form commuting links are tagged 
cycleway and foot=yes, so I’ve been happy to roll with that approach.)

Cheers,
Josh


Footnotes:
† A big one recently was the M1 on/off-ramps for both exits at Karuah, north of 
Newcastle… they all had bicycles=no, and the routing to get around that was so 
bad I had to fix it as 

†† Strava, Komoot, and the fabulous indie mobile app Footpath (nothing better 
for planning and quickly checking a route, imho) all had the same error with 
the Karuah ramps, so I knew the problem was with the underlying OSM tagging.

* Not quite as controversial as the highway=track drama, as far as I can tell.

^ I’m in NSW where it’s not legal for age>16 riders to go on the footpath… but 
there are some footpaths that are very short sections that add better bicycle 
connectivity, and would only ever be used by casual and commuting cyclists. For 
these I have added bicycle=yes to the footpath. Example: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1026269344 Use case: my newly high-schooling 
son riding to school.


> On 2 Feb 2022, at 11:24 pm, osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
> 
> 
> I rarely map things that aren’t urban footpaths.
>  
> So generally footway or cycleway. As I’m generally mapping in Queensland, 
> where there isn’t much if any legal distinction between general footpath and 
> a signed “shared path”, I’m using footway or cycleway depending on how cycle 
> friendly (wide enough, no low hanging branches, smooth enough surface, …) I 
> find the way, simply to get them to render differently in Carto, though the 
> legal access restrictions for routing purposes are identical.
>  
> In the rare cases where I did map paths “in the woods”, I’ve usually used 
> path (or track, depending…).
>  
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>  
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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of walking tracks/paths

[Josh Marshall]

> On 25 Jan 2022, at 2:46 pm, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 at 00:11, Josh Marshall  <mailto:josh.p.marsh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> my searching led me to put these tags on a certain walking path: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/403832368#map=16/-32.5573/152.2856 
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/403832368#map=16/-32.5573/152.2856> Please 
> advise if I'm going about that the right way with the conditional:foot and 
> :bicycles tag.
> 
> Looks good, I see someone added these foot:conditional examples now to 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australia/Walking_Tracks 
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australia/Walking_Tracks> which is very 
> helpful.

Yes, that was me, thought it better to just put them in there rather than just 
having a howto hidden in the email archive for the list, after it took me a 
little while to work it out.

I’m guessing you added this section Andrew, there’s a bit of ambiguity with the 
final row on the table of examples which says...

> Off-track when not part of an official walking route  Walking routes 
> off-track without any signage or official route. Should not be mapped in OSM 
> at all, or if they are controversially edited consider not:highway=* with a 
> note=* indicating why it should not be mapped.


Should this be limited to “within National Parks areas” or something to that 
effect? It contradicts the Informal Walking Track row higher up. I’m invested 
here… there are tons of trails in my area which I believe to be private land 
but have landowners that don’t mind the access, or may be crown land but public 
access, but either way have some well-maintained trails by volunteers. See the 
network of trails at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-32.98762/151.70793 
for instance.___
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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of walking tracks/paths

[Josh Marshall]

Thanks for putting that effort in, Andrew. I've played devil's advocate and
added the reasons "why not" to your page: really it all concerns bad or
rather, incomplete, rendering choices.

This is actually on my mind right now, as this Saturday passed I rode from
Forster to Newcastle via the paths and roads through Myall Lakes NP. I was
horrendously confused at one stage, when all the maps (yes, both GMaps and
OSM both) had Mungo Brush Rd in the wrong location. It was relocated in
2019 (!) as per
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/park-management/community-engagement/relocating-mungo-brush-road-myall-lakes-national-park
. See my changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/116520666 for
the update.

There were also some trails earlier in my ride that were closed, and in the
interest of not-self-incriminating I would certainly not admit to
attempting to traverse them or getting somewhat lost and trekking through
swamp in the progress, definitely not. But my subsequent OSM updates ran up
against how to tag them as closed temporarily, and my searching led me to
put these tags on a certain walking path:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/403832368#map=16/-32.5573/152.2856 Please
advise if I'm going about that the right way with the conditional:foot and
:bicycles tag.

I'm also contemplating attempting this (ahem) leisurely walk [
http://www.john.chapman.name/nsw-tops.html], after seeing it tagged for a
short length of trail in OSM at [
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/700619505]... I'm guessing adding it is a
no-go until I actually walk it myself, given the last documentation of it
dates to 2000 and I will have to go to the local library to get ahold of
the book mentioned.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 at 22:59, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 at 17:26, Phil Wyatt  wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> I agree that a good discussion is useful but at the same time the OSM
>> community needs to understand what a hassle it can be to have these tracks
>> in OSM and having no, or little, control on how any other app/web
>> interface
>> may show them.
>>
>> I actually favour deletion as well but understand that is not the 'OSM way
>> of doing things'. A full discussion may help the agency, and OSM
>> contributors understand the issues on both sides.
>>
>> I also think it would be useful for others to join in the US trails group
>> so
>> that a more international perspective can be applied to this issue. The
>> situation can be very different across countries (especially legally).
>>
>
> Inspired by the US trails group work, I thought maybe we can attempt
> something localised for Australia.
>
> I started sketching something out at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australia/Walking_Tracks. If anyone
> thinks this is a good idea, please feel free to contribute to that page.
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Re: [talk-au] highway=track update

[Josh Marshall]

Eh, no time like the present. I may not leave these photos up forever but 
here’s just a quick sample of the variety of roads I go on. If we end up 
discussing these indepth I’ll put them somewhere permanent.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15u0CQQTI8GXhX8FeQcDvUoDUi9tByMWg?usp=sharing

I would be inclined to tag all of these as surface=unpaved and 
surface:unpaved=gravel, with the exception of 000 (surface:unpaved=rock?) and 
005 obviously (surface:unpaved=sand). And my views on the smoothness follow as 
well, and I’d suggest we update the wiki [0] to have more examples and relate 
it to more specific vehicles, bicycles, and foot access.

File_000 with the 4wd is an example of a fire trail with exposed rock, 
impassable except on foot, running. Too steep to ride a bike up unless you’re 
exceptionally skilled or electrified. The track at the top and bottom of the 
image is just bare ground, no added aggregate. (smoothness=horrible)

001: a typical trail on a power line easement. You can see the grading and 
aggregate, but also the bare rock starting to come through (smoothness=very_bad)

002: graded and aggregate (smoothness=bad)

003: fire trail left-to-right through a MTB park: graded and aggregate 
(smoothness=very_bad)

004: near the coast. aggregate added but grass has grown up 
(smoothness=very_bad)

005: sand fire trail (smoothness=horrible)


[0]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness


> On 4 Mar 2021, at 8:37 pm, Josh Marshall  wrote:
> 
> I do long runs through state forest and national park pretty much every 
> fortnight. I’ll start a collection and post them up in a few weeks. What’s 
> the best place to put them so they’re somewhat permanent?... and that raises 
> the question; do we start a proposal page according to [0] or take it to the 
> tagging mailing list first?
> 
> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process 
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process>
> 
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 7:57 pm, Sebastian S.  <mailto:mapp...@consebt.de>> wrote:
> Would you happen to have some photos of such unpaved roads?
> 
> In my opinion we should consider adding a new surface tag if we feel we need 
> one and can describe the surface sufficiently.
> 
> All this would start with some photos and a discussion in my opinion. Hence 
> the question.
> 
> Cheers,
> Seb
> 
> 
> 
> On 23 February 2021 5:22:43 pm AEDT, Josh Marshall  <mailto:josh.p.marsh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> The approved OSM tag for surface=gravel 
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface> refers to railway ballast, 
> not the fine crushed rock or natural surface that usually occurs on unpaved 
> roads in Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface "gravel" in 
> common parlance, and many unpaved roads that don't constitute gravel as 
> described in the OSM wiki have been tagged as gravel here, erroneously 
> depending on your point of view.
> 
> This is a matter of interest to me too. I spend a substantial amount of time 
> running+riding on fire trails in NSW (all highway=track), and the surface 
> type is useful and indeed used in a number of the route planners I use. I 
> have changed a few roads back to 'unpaved' from 'gravel' due to the rule of 
> following the description in the surface= guidelines rather than the name. 
> 
> My question then however, is exactly what to tag the tracks beyond "unpaved".
> 
> There are definitely sections that are somewhat regularly graded and appear 
> to have extra aggregate/fine gravel added. From the surface= wiki, these most 
> closely align with surface=compacted. But fine_gravel is potentially an 
> option too. Many of these are 2wd accessible when it is dry. (Typically 
> smoothness=bad.)
> 
> There are also others, usually less travelled, which are bare rock, clay, 
> dirt, sand, whatever was there. Is it best just to leave these as 
> surface=unpaved, and add a smoothness=very_bad or horrible tag? None of the 
> surface= tags really seem to apply.
> 
> 
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 16:45, Little Maps  <mailto:mapslit...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi Brian and co, in Victoria and southern NSW where I've edited a lot of 
> roads, highway=track is nearly totally confined to dirt roads in forested 
> areas, as described in the Aus tagging guidelines, viz: " highway=track 
> Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails and similar roads. Gravel roads 
> connecting towns etc. should be tagged as appropriate (secondary, tertiary or 
> unclassified), along with the surface=unpaved or more specific surface=* tag."
> 
> In your US-chat someone wrote, "...in the USA, "most" roads that "most" 
> people encounter (around here, in my experience, YMMV...) are surface=paved.

Re: [talk-au] highway=track update

[Josh Marshall]

This raises the question: how did the surface=gravel tag end up getting defined 
as large aggregate/railway ballast anyway, given it appears at odds with almost 
everyone’s usage of it, including other significant online references such as: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel_road (which matches the vernacular 
perfectly)?? Any OSM old-timers recall enough to comment? Is there actually 
anywhere in the world where roads are commonly done this way?

With regard to:
> Hi Josh and co, I ride a “gravel bike” on dirt roads that are signposted as 
> “gravel road”but definitely don’t fit the OSM definition of gravel = railway 
> ballast. 
and Michael’s
> I don't map much in the US but do in Australia and Sweden. In both countries, 
> I have rarely come across what I consider to be gravel roads, instead 
> consider most unpaved roads and tracks to be 'dirt' or 'compacted':

Same here. I might provide a single counter-example; the major through road in 
the Watagans near me was actually lined with this large ballast last time I 
rode through; an absolute nightmare to ride on, and I can’t imagine it’s too 
kind on vehicles either. Presumably an initial step before further surfacing? 
Has anyone else seen this surface?



> On 23 Feb 2021, at 8:44 pm, Little Maps  wrote:
> 
> Hi Josh and co, I ride a “gravel bike” on dirt roads that are signposted as 
> “gravel road”but definitely don’t fit the OSM definition of gravel = railway 
> ballast. Because of the common usage of gravel as a variably textured dirt 
> road in Australia, we face a massive uphill battle to get accurate, specific 
> unpaved road surfaces in OSM. Here’s some data from Overpass Turbo queries of 
> all unpaved highway surfaces in Victoria. This includes all highway tags (inc 
> roads and paths) not just tracks:
> 
> Surface  Number  Percent
> unpaved   48664   80
> gravel615910
> dirt  45598
> compacted 642 1.1
> sand  406 1
> fine_gravel   230 0.4
> earth 46  0
> Total 60706   100
> 
> In case that’s illegible, if you add all of these unpaved/dirt/gravel ways, 
> 80% are tagged with a generic unpaved tag (which is entirely accurate if not 
> especially precise). Gravel is the next most common category, accounting for 
> 10% of ways. Apart from dirt at 8%, the rest are used very rarely. 
> 
> My guess from tagging surfaces on a lot of unpaved roads is that perhaps 80% 
> of the roads tagged as gravel do not satisfy the OSM wiki definition and 
> should be tagged as something else. Interestingly, the two most relevant tags 
> for formed, unpaved surfaces - compacted and fine_gravel - are very rarely 
> used (around 1% each). There are probably more ways that have fence-sitting 
> tags like “dirt; sand; gravel” that end up being pretty meaningless. 
> 
> Adding precise surface tags may be simple on roads that are freshly 
> maintained but on roads that haven’t been maintained for a while they’re 
> often pretty difficult to assess anyway. 
> 
> Personally, I feel that there’s often too much emphasis in OSM on precision 
> (i.e. use detailed sub-tags) at the expense of accuracy. I believe most of 
> the generic unpaved tags are accurate. I wish I could, but unfortunately I 
> don’t believe many of the specific sub-tags are especially useful. (Sand is a 
> goody though!). Cheers Ian
> 
>> On 23 Feb 2021, at 5:22 pm, Josh Marshall  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> The approved OSM tag for surface=gravel 
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface> refers to railway ballast, 
>> not the fine crushed rock or natural surface that usually occurs on unpaved 
>> roads in Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface "gravel" in 
>> common parlance, and many unpaved roads that don't constitute gravel as 
>> described in the OSM wiki have been tagged as gravel here, erroneously 
>> depending on your point of view.
>> 
>> This is a matter of interest to me too. I spend a substantial amount of time 
>> running+riding on fire trails in NSW (all highway=track), and the surface 
>> type is useful and indeed used in a number of the route planners I use. I 
>> have changed a few roads back to 'unpaved' from 'gravel' due to the rule of 
>> following the description in the surface= guidelines rather than the name. 
>> 
>> My question then however, is exactly what to tag the tracks beyond "unpaved".
>> 
>> There are definitely sections that are somewhat regularly graded and appear 
>> to have extra aggregate/fine gravel added. From the surface= wiki, these 
>> most closely align with surface=compacted. But fine_gravel is potentially an 
>> option too. Many of these are 2wd accessible when it i

Re: [talk-au] highway=track update

[Josh Marshall]

>
> The approved OSM tag for surface=gravel
>  refers to railway
> ballast, not the fine crushed rock or natural surface that usually occurs
> on unpaved roads in Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface
> "gravel" in common parlance, and many unpaved roads that don't constitute
> gravel as described in the OSM wiki have been tagged as gravel here,
> erroneously depending on your point of view.
>

This is a matter of interest to me too. I spend a substantial amount of
time running+riding on fire trails in NSW (all highway=track), and the
surface type is useful and indeed used in a number of the route planners I
use. I have changed a few roads back to 'unpaved' from 'gravel' due to the
rule of following the description in the surface= guidelines rather than
the name.

My question then however, is exactly what to tag the tracks beyond
"unpaved".

There are definitely sections that are somewhat regularly graded and appear
to have extra aggregate/fine gravel added. From the surface= wiki, these
most closely align with surface=compacted. But fine_gravel is potentially
an option too. Many of these are 2wd accessible when it is dry. (Typically
smoothness=bad.)

There are also others, usually less travelled, which are bare rock, clay,
dirt, sand, whatever was there. Is it best just to leave these as
surface=unpaved, and add a smoothness=very_bad or horrible tag? None of the
surface= tags really seem to apply.


On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 16:45, Little Maps  wrote:

> Hi Brian and co, in Victoria and southern NSW where I've edited a lot of
> roads, highway=track is nearly totally confined to dirt roads in forested
> areas, as described in the Aus tagging guidelines, viz: " highway=track
> Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails and similar roads. Gravel
> roads connecting towns etc. should be tagged as appropriate (secondary,
> tertiary or unclassified), along with the surface=unpaved or more specific
> surface=* tag."
>
> In your US-chat someone wrote, "...in the USA, "most" roads that "most"
> people encounter (around here, in my experience, YMMV...) are
> surface=paved. Gravel or dirt roads are certainly found, but they are less
> and less common." By contrast, in regional Australia, most small roads are
> unpaved/dirt/gravel.
>
> In SE Australia, public roads in agricultural areas that are
> unpaved/dirt/gravel/etc are usually tagged as highway=unclassified (or
> tertiary etc), not highway=track. There are some exceptions in some small
> regions (for example in the Rutherglen area in NE Victoria) where really
> poor, rough 'double track' tracks on public road easements have
> systematically been tagged with highway=track rather than
> highway=unclassified. See here for example: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-36.1424/146.3683
> . However, this is not the norm in SE Australia and across the border in
> southern NSW, this type of road is nearly always tagged as unclassified, as
> it is elsewhere in Victoria. In SE Australia, my experience is that tracks
> are tagged in the more traditional way, and not as has been done in the
> USA.
>
> If I could ask you a related question, what do you US mappers call
> "gravel"? The approved OSM tag for surface=gravel
>  refers to railway
> ballast, not the fine crushed rock or natural surface that usually occurs
> on unpaved roads in Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface
> "gravel" in common parlance, and many unpaved roads that don't constitute
> gravel as described in the OSM wiki have been tagged as gravel here,
> erroneously depending on your point of view. How do you use the
> surface=gravel tag in the USA? Cheers Ian
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 2:49 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Recently, there was a discussion on the talk-us list regarding how we use
>> the tag highway=track.  That discussion begins here:
>>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2021-February/020878.html
>>
>> During that discussion, someone suggested that Australian mappers may
>> also be using the highway=track tag in a similar way to US mappers.  Hence
>> this message :)
>>
>> I've recently made edits to the wiki page for highway=track describing
>> how the tag is used in the USA:
>>
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack#Usage_in_the_United_States
>>
>> If there is similarly a local variation in how this tag is used, I would
>> encourage the Australian community to document their usage as well.
>>
>> Brian Sperlongano
>> Rhode Island, USA
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[talk-au] Converting railway= abandoned to highway=track

[Josh Marshall]

Hi,

Long-time lurker, first time poster. I mainly add/edit features relevant to 
off-roard bike and hiking, but mainly small ones to date and there’s a big 
change I’d prefer to run by the group first.

West of Newcastle is the abandoned Richmond Vale Railway, only partially 
covered by this route: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/173086136 . It looks 
like the only edits in the last few years have been by myself (neomanic) since 
it was updated from railway=disused to abandoned.

It is used quite a bit for trail running and mountain biking currently (I have 
done it a number of times), and is proposed for a rail trail: 
https://www.newcastle.nsw.gov.au/council/news/projects-and-works/shortland-richmond-vale-rail-trail

My proposal is to alter the ways associated with the track to highway=track 
(it’s all wide enough for vehicles), but retain railway=abandoned, and add all 
the missing ways to the above relation. 

My main reasoning behind this is to raise it’s visibility as a walk and ride 
option, and allow routing along it, as current routers (Strava, Komoot) ignore 
it altogether (much to my annoyance). It’s what’s been done for locally, the 
Fernleigh Track (https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2269030), and elsewhere 
eg The Great Victorian Rail Trail 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1043265)

Now the other question is what should be done with the proposal as far as 
adding tags. This way is on the old rail line and part of the proposal, 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243988974 has railway=abandoned, 
highway=proposed and proposed=cycleway. It’s all accessible now, so it should 
be highway=track (surface=unpaved), but then how to tag for the proposal?

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] Parks in the USA, leisure=park, park:type

[Josh Lee]

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 12:10 PM OSM Volunteer stevea
 wrote:

> Does OSM tag these leisure=park?  "We" (the people, the Departments of 
> Parks...) do, yet should we in OSM?  This IS talk-us; a major reason I 
> brought this up here is that USA park tagging drifts from elsewhere as "more 
> generous with the tag."  Yet the tag has recently become more precise, 
> narrowing it from how it is often used in the USA.

If the wiki history
 is to be
believed, it looks like one editor besides yourself has unilaterally
decided to change the wiki page to refer to something which is not how
the tag is actually used.

Where is the consensus or vote? The wiki page says "Status: de facto"
which implies that the wiki page should document *actual usage* and
not some sort of idealist, narrow viewpoint.

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping opportunities along the Great North Walk

[Josh Marshall]

> OSM routes for bushwalking, MTBs, cycling, horse riding, skiing can all be 
> found on that site https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/ if they are tagged as 
> routes in OSM. 

That site is great, thanks! I’ve been held back from adding all the walking 
routes as relations around here (Newcastle) because of a lack of a way to share 
them with others. I see that the Bathers Way is there but incomplete so I’ll go 
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping opportunities along the Great North Walk

[Josh Marshall]

There is a relation for the Great North Walk, and it covers at least the bits 
I’ve traveled myself if not the whole thing; Watagans north to Newcastle and 
the Patonga to Yarramalong sections. On my phone now, but I can look it up 
later. 

That said, I’ve not seen any good renderers that highlight it specifically, but 
it’s been a while since I’ve looked. 

> On 27 Dec 2018, at 4:42 pm, Ewen Hill  wrote:
> 
> Dion,
>Thanks for your hard work to date and good luck with your trek. I am happy 
> to help you off-line and this is open to conjecture however I would ...
> 1. Create a single master relation and attach all elements to this
> 2. Where the track may split into two (e.g into the town/skirting around it) 
> perhaps create alternative more localised relationships 
> 3. I would attach all benches, seats, potable water points etc. to the 
> master. This will allow users to easily download everything they need. This 
> is probably frowned on however in planning the Munda Biddi Trail attack, I 
> have found this invaluable ... and critical to the planning for water points. 
> Others will disagree.
> 4. I would suggest using mapillary to upload some sections of the track where 
> it is complex. You can then upload these images and rework the route 
> accordingly and have the appropriate sign posts.
> 5. Have fun and enjoy - don't get bogged down in mapping whilst enjoying the 
> trip.
> 
> Ewen
> 
>> On Thu, 27 Dec 2018 at 15:47, Dion Moult  wrote:
>> G'day all!
>> 
>> I've started walking the Great North Walk and was miffed that I couldn't
>> immediately find a good online map showing the full route from Sydney to
>> Newcastle. Instead I found incredibly difficult to navigate websites, 
>> paywalled
>> online maps, and maps split up into many smaller pages.
>> 
>> I decided to walk it myself and create a map for it here:
>> 
>> https://thinkmoult.com/map-of-the-great-north-walk-sydney-to-newcastle.html
>> 
>> Out of curiosity, I was wondering what things I can help map while I'm on 
>> this
>> route? I am not currently aware of a single "route" / multi-line in the OSM
>> database that describes the Great North Walk.
>> 
>> I considered mapping the sign posts, but they are quite plenty and probably 
>> of
>> little benefit.
>> 
>> Any ideas?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dion Moult
>> 
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> Warm Regards
> 
> Ewen Hill
> Internet Development Australia
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Re: [Talk-us] Strange city boundary: Lee, Illinois

[Josh Lee]

I can think of at least six examples in Pennsylvania off the top of my head:
Trafford, McDonald, Shippensburg, Seven Springs, Telford, Falls Creek.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 08:49  Hi,
>
> are there cities (admin level 8) in the USA which  part of two counties?
>
> see: https://wambachers-osm.website/images/osm/snaps_2018/lee.png
>
> left: Lee County
>
> right: DeKalb County
>
> there are some more, but i would like to know if that is ok. In Germany
> this is impossible.
>
> Regards
>
> walter/Germany
>
> --
> My projects:
>
> Admin Boundaries of the World 
> Missing Boundaries
> 
> Emergency Map 
> Postal Code Map (Germany only) 
> Fools (QA for zipcodes in Germany) 
> Postcode Boundaries of Germany
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER place confusion

[Josh Lee]

Use border_type=* for this. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:border_type

Usage is spotty at best but it looks fairly consistent to me. For
example in Pennsylvania admin_level=8 can have a border_type of city,
township, borough, municipality(?), or town (there's just one "town").
In New York admin_level=7 can have a border_type of town or city, but
I'm only seeing this on two cities and about a third of the towns.

Since a combo admin+place has both a boundary and a label node, is
there a rule of thumb for what tags go where? Does place=whatever go
on both? What about wikidata?

(?) border_type=municipality definitely came from TIGER, as it matches
Bethel Park, Monroeville, and Murrysville having an LSAD of
municipality. Pennsylvania's classification of home rule
municipalities is a bit fuzzy, since it's *also* still considered to
be a township or borough. I'll leave that one alone for now.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 7:50 AM Max Erickson  wrote:
>
> Many of the administrative boundaries imported from TIGER have a
> place= tag that reflects the legal type of incorporation of the
> municipality rather than a sensible value for the OSM place tag (which
> would give some hint about the relative prominence of the place).
>
> This confusion has gone under the radar, as openstreetmap-carto
> doesn't render place labels from ways and relations:
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2816
>
> Deleting the imported place= values (or perhaps moving them to some
> other tag, say something like incorporation=) would directly make the
> data more accurate and improve maps that render place areas without
> accounting for the confusion in the data.
>
> What do people think about deleting (or adjusting) the place tag from
> imported US administrative boundaries?
>
>
> Max
>
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Re: [Talk-us] admin_level=8 boundaries in Parker County, TX

[Josh Lee]

Some of the US boundary data gives "USGS DRG" as a source. This seems
to stand for "Digital Raster Graphic" files. It is my suspicion that
this raster was vectorized as part of an import process, but I have no
documentation to support that. Still, I consider it a convenient
explanation for why the data doesn't seem to match anything currently
available from TIGER.

Here at the PA/WV state line there is an anomaly of about 100m:
https://osm.org/go/ZWmfhbe
The current OSM data have the PA/WV boundary as a straight line, but
TIGER says it's not. That's the only reasonable explanation for the
Weirton city border to jut into PA by this much — the city border is
true to currently available TIGER data, and state border needs to be
updated.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 2:36 PM Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
> Frederik,
>
> These boundaries are often very outdated. I don't know which TIGER vintage 
> they were imported from. I have been replacing them piecemeal from current 
> TIGER as I work, but we should probably replace them altogether and have a 
> plan to keep them updated. I don't think they interfere with other features 
> much, but obviously that should be researched.
>
> As for this specific case, current boundary from TIGER 2017 in brown, OSM in 
> green: https://cloud.rtijn.org/s/bpxPffp6ycm8rF7
>
> --
>   Martijn van Exel
>   m...@rtijn.org
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018, at 05:10, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've recently traced a little bit of stuff in Annetta, TX. The area I
> > looked at had a lot of potential for someone interested in mapping from
> > aerial imagery (houses, tracks, driveways, parking missing; some
> > driveways tagged as highway=residential etc.) and I did what I could in
> > the small area I worked on, but there was one thing I didn't dare touch
> > and that's admin boundaries. The ones I encountered often cut straight
> > through residential buildings and I thought that can't be right, but I
> > know too little about boundaries in the US to fix any of it. I am
> > specifically talking of
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/114418
> >
> > and
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/33245202
> >
> > - maybe someone local wants to give them a closer look. Maybe it's ok
> > the way it is. The Annetta North boundary is relatively straight but has
> > one wobbly bit, is there maybe a waterway missing in OSM?

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Re: [Talk-us] I-69 east west vs north south

[Josh Lee]

While it might be uncommon for two-digit Interstate highways to change
their directions, it's quite common for three-digit ones to do so, and
it shouldn't be treated any differently.

Some examples of changing direction, all of which are mapped as a
single relation for the state they're in, with cardinal directions for
the roles.

I-275 (Cincinnati)
I-270 (Columbus)
I-465 (Indianapolis)
I-495 (Washington, D.C.)

None of these have separate relations for the opposite directions,
just a single relation for the whole highway in that state.

Some other examples:

- I-64 in Virginia. South of I-264, it loses East/West signage (this
fact is not currently mapped in OSM)
- US 98 in Florida changes from EW to NS and back to EW (this fact is
not currently mapped in OSM).
- Ohio SR 104 changes from North/South to East/West near I-71, just
south of Columbus (mapped as cardinal directions for roles).

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 1:32 AM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
> He seems to be correct, using the (not usable for mapping but usable
> to inform discussion) G-Streetview, I do indeed see signage as
> described, which defies commonly understood version of Fed standards.
> Not just BUSINESS route, not just when cotracking i-94, but actual
> green, solo "WEST 69 MILE 198" with red white and blue shield.
>
> Do we know if whether there is a Fed exemption, the Feds actually
> acknowledge that I-69 actually E-W beyond a certain point, and so can
> be E-W here?  Or if  the State of Michigan is defying Federal
> standards in the interest of being understandable? After the Feds
> threatened to pull our block grant $$ if we didn't renumber our exits
> their way, I'm amazed they're letting this slide when they could just
> rename the E-W section I-369 E-W  and it'd be a compliant extension of
> a N-S route. Perhaps the bureaucracy can be reasonable. [I spent a few
> years with DOT, not in Highway. Nice folks really.]
>
> (Probably not the only exception. There are 1xx/2xx/3xx/4xx that don't
> fit the spur/loop rule too.)
>
>
> (Frankly, I'm surprised any of 69's escutcheon route markers remain
> unstolen, like the 420 mile markers that keep wandering off.)
>
> So back to original question(s) --
> - who should fix the E-W section of I-69 to be E-W
> - how - split relation? relation of relation?
> - from where ?  At what point does signage change to E-W ?
>[and for mapping purposes no I'm NOT going to suggest we get that
> from a copyright source like StreeView, that needs free & open ground
> truth. ]
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Territorial municipalities, Guam's villages

[Josh Lee]

TIGER Line gives these village boundaries in the "County Subdivisions" file.
https://www2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2016/COUSUB/tl_2016_66_cousub.zip

The existing boundaries in Guam seem to be tagged as
[boundary=census], since they're Census-Designated Places imported
from an older version of TIGER. The 2016 vintage is better aligned
with the actual boundaries.


On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Max Erickson  wrote:
> The image the linked image was traced from provides no provenance
> (beyond "Own work"). It's tough to go from there to being sure that
> derived data is okay to contribute to OSM.
>
>
> Max
>
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Re: [Talk-us] What should we do for wildfires?

[Josh Spencer]

I work for a large insurance company and stumbled upon open street maps and 
their humanitarian mapping for some international catastrophe events.  
Ironically, I've just switched email programs and my mail rule didn't transfer, 
so I have been paying more attention to this subscription.

I've always been curious about this and have been trying to see how all of this 
works.  I used a lot of public data as we planned for Fort McMurray response.  
Any sort of mapping that confirms damaged buildings would be a great resource 
as every time something like this happens, the information flow is different.  
I'm hoping that once I figure out how the maps and updates work, I can share 
them with some of the others I work with and contribute more.  I've got a few 
other industry contacts that would probably be up for the same as well.

If anyone can send me the best place to get started on fully understanding all 
of this, I would appreciate it.


Josh Spencer



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[OSM-legal-talk] Skybox for Good imagery

[Josh Livni]

Hi there,

As some of you may be aware, we recently announced the Skybox for Good
http://www.skyboximaging.com/blog/introducing-skybox-for-good program.

We know that some of this imagery can be especially useful in Crisis
Response situations, and therefore we are explicitly authorizing usage of
Skybox for Good imagery in any current HOT Activation
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HOT_activation, under the condition
that changesets and/or features that are derived from Skybox for Good
imagery and committed to OSM are attributed to Skybox.

This could, for example, include the method of attributing Skybox as the
source, or a similar method deemed appropriate by HOT.

Cheers,

Josh Livni
Google Crisis Response
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[Talk-us] Completing the Appalachian Trail relation

[Josh Doe]

I recently hiked a very small section of the Appalachian Trail, and
was shocked to see the section hadn't been mapped yet in OSM. Looking
at what's in the relation, only 2689 km of the 3504 km trail are
mapped. Granted, there's very likely some sections that have been
mapped but not added to the relation.

Here is the super relation for the AT:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/156553

Here's a table showing the length in each state compared to that
stated in Wikipedia. Some of the differences likely result from
sections of the AT that follow the border between states.

State, Relation ID, Length (OSM RA), Length (Wikipedia)
Maine, 2007932, 409.8, 452.9
New Hampshire, 2007646, 230.4, 258.9
Vermont, 392991, 199.8, 241.1
Massachusetts, 2991960, 8.3, 145.2
Connecticut, N/A, 0, 83
New York, 2007688, 78.4, 142.3
New Jersey, 446370, 19.4, 116.2
Pennsylvania, 394916, 363.3, 369.5
Maryland, 2007644, 60.6, 65.8
West Virginia, 2007973, 4.5, 6
Virginia, 2007649, 407, 886
Tennessee, 2007647, 539.8, 463.3
North Carolina, 2007645, 230.5, 153.7
Georgia, 2007643, 137.2, 120

Clearly there's more work to be done. I'm going to try and work on the
Virginia portion as I have time. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy
provides centerline Shapefiles which seem to be compatible with the
OSM license (liability disclaimer, a mention of citation in the
agreement according to what is stated in the metadata, which for the
centerline is nothing):
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/about-the-trail/mapping-gis-data/mapping-gis-data-download-agreement

Anyone else interested in getting this relation complete in the next few months?

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Completing the Appalachian Trail relation

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 [...]
 the data appears pretty good, the segment in Orange County
 NY that i just filled in meets up appropriately with previously
 mapped sections (presumably the result of OSM hikers with
 GPS units and where i looked at overlap, the variance was within
 expected norms for a GPS unit under foliage cover. this is
 decent data. the previously entered OSM data is also decent from
 what i can see, and should be retained. the AT GIS data should
 be treated as a gap filler and there is no reason to replace
 prior data.

I agree with you. What about attributes, anything useful we should
import when possible? I can't view the data now, but I believe I saw
SURFACE and CLUB which might be useful. A whole lot of unneeded GPS
info.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Completing the Appalachian Trail relation

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 On 11/27/13 10:59 AM, Richard Welty wrote:
  if we want
 club info, i'd suggest breaking up the relations where
 needed and adding the clubs to those rather to the ways.

 now that i've thought about it, i would like to suggest redoing
 the relations by the responsible clubs, as the division by states
 is arbitrary and has nothing to do with trail administration or with
 much of anything else, really.

If it weren't for the fact that the route was so long, I wouldn't see
any need to use more than a single relation. Given that it's sensible
to split it up into several relations, I like the idea of splitting up
by trail club more than by state, especially since there are portions
where it straddles borders. In short, +1.

And agreed about mass import, we need to do QC. I did notice there are
some sections which have been rerouted and need to be updated, and
some sections which apparently came from inaccurate TIGER data. After
filling in the gaps, by merging existing data as well as the ATC/NPS
data, we can do a good once over checking for consistency, and large
variances from the official-ish ATC/NPS data.

-Josh

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[OSM-talk] Carto stylesheet for parks/campgrounds

[Josh Doe]

Just curious if anyone else has created on OSM Carto stylesheet focused on
parks or campgrounds. There are a lot of parks near me which have maps
which haven't changed in ten, twenty, or thirty years. I've mapped several
of them thoroughly, but now would like to see a rendering which is a bit
more focused and detailed, such as rendering some of the less commonly used
tags to include tagging individual camp sites (pitches). It would be great
if I could put something together to show the local parks. If no one has
anything, I would probably just derive something from the
openstreetmap-carto style.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] Double-clicking on OSM map does not centre the map

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote:

 I found the marker dragging feature mentioned by Peter Wendorff under Add
 a note to the map (currently last button on the right), but I can't use
 because I only need a private marker, I don't have anything to tell the
 mappers. I don't know if after confirming the note one gets a link to the
 marker or point.
 The Share feature with double-click centring doesn't help because as
 said by others the centering is not precise nor intuitive.
 To share a specific point on the map, ideally with a marker, I
 have to:
 1) double click somewhere around the point in question,
 2) take the long link in the Share view,
 3) edit it to get the coordinates separated by a comma,
 4) enter them in the search bar and confirm,
 5) click the search result link to get the marker,
 6) repeat 1-5 as many times as needed to actually get the point I'm
 interested in (I gave up after second attempt because it looked random).
 All this in Google Maps requires:
 A) right click, centre the map.
 So while it may be true that no other mapping websites use double click to
 centre the map what's important is that they do offer such a crucial
 feature like selecting and sharing a point on the map, and now OSM does not
 any longer, which makes it useless for a good proportion of the use cases I
 have for it.


This is a known problem (
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/376).
Specifically check out this site, which demonstrates a potential change to
osm.org:
http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/

Click the share button on the right, then check Include marker. You can
now drag this marker where you want.

-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Releasing my data into Public Domain

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:

 Neither of those is public domain. I know for individuals there can be
 issues releasing data into the public domain, but if a government’s lawyers
 feel their data is public domain, I generally just take them at their word.

 If the data is public domain then a simple statement that the data is
 public domain should be enough. With PD you’re not actually licensing the
 data, you’re stating that it’s not covered by copyright and there aren’t
 any exclusive rights that need licensing.


Sadly it's not that simple. Public domain can only be works of the US
federal government (for use within the US specifically), or where copyright
has expired, and I'm sure a few other edge cases. Whether you like it or
not, in the US, unless you're an employee of the US federal government, you
can't release works into the public domain. That's what CC0 is for. Read
more here:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#PublicDomainSoftware
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain_software

-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Releasing my data into Public Domain

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:

 There are cases where other levels of governments believe their data is
 public domain, depending on the laws they work under. We regularly take
 governments at their word when they say their data is public domain.


Sure, that's probably good enough, mostly it shows they don't have an
intent to sue you. If they're asking for a statement to use however, may as
well give them a legally sound one. I like the PDDL, since it's made for
data, though the name isn't as cool as CC0.

-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] California geo data open

[Josh Doe]

Good to see common sense won out. Now we need volunteers (with lawyer
friends) to take this up in other states. At least in Virginia there are
some municipalities that charge exhorbitant rates for GIS data and require
NDA's.

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013, Alex Barth wrote:

 FYI:
 http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/08/local/la-me-adv-map-ruling-20130709

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Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute, NE2

[Josh Doe]

On Fri May 31 23:48:45 UTC 2013, Paul Norman penorman at mac.com wrote:

 The full text of the DWG recommendation to the board is available at
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/File:DWG_NE2_Turn_Restriction_dispute.pdf
 but the executive summary is as follows:

I missed this thread until now, so sorry for the late comment. I'm
disappointed that the above recommendation didn't acknowledge that NE2
has done good work. I would say that on the whole his contributions in
terms of data are definitely a net positive, including a great deal of
geometry improvement, addition of new roads, etc. However I don't
fundamentally disagree with the recommendation because of the
communication problems, I just wish it didn't dismiss the thousands of
hours of good work he has done. I hope he can be reconciled at some
point and return to contributing.

-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] Waze navigation

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 Anybody heard of waze?
 http://www.waze.com/
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Waze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze

 Isn't this exactly what OSM is, only now as navigation as a startingpoint?
 Looking at the map in my area (the Netherlands), I see OSM some 6 years ago.

 It seems all so superfluous to me, I don't see the point. Why not make a
 navigation app based on OSM? There are several already.


I've used Waze quite a bit, as it's honestly the best navigation app for my
wife's iPhone. Waze is only concerned with the road network, nothing else.
They do a great job of keeping the data up to date, and have very good
traffic information, thanks to their millions of users. If there was an OSM
based solution with traffic info, I would use that in a heartbeat.
-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] parcel data next steps

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 3:39 PM, SteveCoast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 Majority of what exactly? I think it's tough to put much credence in a
 couple of people on this mailing list vs. anyone who added data this month
 as statistically valid.


If you haven't done so already, please try editing an area that has had
parcel data added. It is a nightmare. I know tools can be improved, but
still parcels have very little relation to any other feature, even
landuses, fences, etc. often don't line up. The only way I'd like to see
parcel data added to OSM is if the concept of layers is added to the API.
Then we'd have a landuse layer, a parcel layer, a ??? layer, and an
everything else layer.

-Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] uMap Project 0.2.0

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Yohan Boniface yohanbonif...@free.frwrote:

 Hi open mappers,

 A quick email to notify that I've frozen a 0.2.0 version of uMap.
 Demo still at http://umap.fluv.io.


This is looking great, and will be very useful. Thank you!
-Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote:

 Yes. Generally I think that non-Western map styles are completely
 neglected in OSM, but I have no idea to change that. How can we get in
 touch with the people who define the rendering styles? Somehow it seems to
 me (from the perspective of an ordinary user) that they are some kind of
 “gods”, who choose abritarily what is done and what is not.


The standard OSM.org map style is actually completely neglected, not just
for non-Western users. Several people have converted the style to CartoCSS
[1], which is much friendlier to edit.

Before talking about getting Japanese/Korean style features rendered on the
OSM.org standard map, someone should first demonstrate it is possible, but
making sure an appropriate tagging system is in place and creating a map
style. For this last part definitely look into TileMill, which can also
load the openstreetmap-carto style.

-Josh

[1]: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto
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Re: [Talk-us] Go Map!! is in the Apple app store

[Josh Doe]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Jeff Meyer j...@gwhat.org wrote:

 I'd like to highly recommend a brand-new, native, and free* iOS OSM
 editor: Go Map!!


 https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=592990211mt=8

 The author is a member of the Seattle OSM community, so I'm biased, but I
 think it rocks.


Would this be the same Bryce Cogswell of Sysinternals fame? Can't wait to
try it out this weekend. PushPin is great, but sometimes I want a little
bit more.

-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] matching external data to OSM

[Josh Doe]

On Saturday, January 12, 2013, Jason Remillard wrote:

 There is another approach. We instead should focus on using weighted
 matching algorithms.

 [...]


 Has this been tried by anybody? Is there any code available?


This is exactly what I was doing with the conflation plugin for JOSM.
Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on it for some time, but the code
is on GitHub. It uses the Vivid Solutions Java Topology Suite that went
into making RoadMatcher and other conflation tools. Last I used the
conflation plugin it was pretty good at matching simple features, but could
really use some improvements such as smarter weighting. I hadn't gotten to
working with linear features yet.
Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] Importing highway surface tags

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Adam Franco adamfra...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello All,

 I'm pretty new to the OSM community and have gotten involved through a
 hobby project analyzing road 
 geometrieshttps://github.com/adamfranco/curvature/wiki.
 I live in Vermont, a state where more than half of the road-miles are
 unpaved graded-gravel. For the benefit of my project and hopefully the OSM
 community I have been working outward from my home tagging highway
 surfaces http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Adam%20Franco/edits as
 gravel, asphalt, or concrete based on direct observation as well as looking
 at high-resolution aerial imagery where available.


Welcome! I lived in Vermont for many years, and can certainly attest to the
poor nature of some of the roads. Sometimes the asphalt roads were in worse
shape than the dirt ones, except for those washboard roads.


 What I am interested in doing is bulk-tagging the surface of roads based
 on public data where no surface tag has been manually set. Before I begin
 this project (and pester my department of transportation for data) I wanted
 to check with the community about the permissibility and feasibility of
 this effort.


Glad to see you're interested, and especially glad that you came to the
list to get the community involved.


 A few questions:

 * Has anyone located a good source for state or national road surface
 data? The TIGER data doesn't seem to include surface information as far as
 I can tell.


I've seen condition tagging on many Massachusetts roads, which I believe
came from the MassGIS import. I believe that was a wholesale import and
replacement of existing data at an early point, rather than data being
conflated.

* While the devil is always in the details, I'm assuming that a relatively
 safe import could be done by only adding tags to ways that don't have
 surface tags already. Are there other considerations I should be thinking
 about related to not worsening the OSM data?


What you would do is automatically add the tag if none exist, and then flag
any conflicting items for later manual review. However by far your biggest
issue is going to be conflation of this data. First, you'll need to match
roads between the two datasets, which is a significant challenge. The
bigger challenge would be to automatically split the OSM roads at the
points where the surface data changes in your dataset. I've never seen
anyone do this. The more doable approach is using the dataset as a second
layer with JOSM or Potlatch to manually conflate. You might even be able to
write a JOSM plugin which would help with this, perhaps extending the
conflation plugin I started a while ago. Also Potlatch has some
functionality thanks to Cyclestreets to help with this sort of thing:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Potlatch_2_merging_tool


 * Is this a project that the OSM community in Vermont, the broader region,
 or nationally (assuming data is available) would support? I'd rather not do
 a lot of work to prepare it if there is no desire for inclusion in the data
 set.


I would say absolutely, but if you truly want automatic bulk conflation,
you've got a long hard road in front of you unless you have some mad
skills. Even then you'd need to demonstrate it to the community that it
works without bugs. Using JOSM or Potlatch for manual conflation seems like
an easier path, if not as exciting or fast.

Also, think about how to show this data. Consider creating a custom map
rendering that shows these surface tags, as it will be good motivation to
contributors.

I'm sure others will chime in with more thoughts.
-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 [...]
 So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
 imports and large edits.
 [...]
 What do folks think?


Excellent idea and a good time to do it. Cleaning up the wiki around
US-related imports should be among the first tasks, and bringing together
all the lessons learned from imports to date.
-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] Fixing shorelines

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Eric H. Christensen 
e...@christensenplace.us wrote:

 I just moved to the Deale, Maryland area and am working on cleaning up the
 Tiger data and mapping as many POI as I can.  I found that the shoreline
 here, though, is very rough.  Along the Chesapeake Bay the TIGER/Line® 2008
 Place Shapefiles appears to outline the separation of water and land quite
 well but is labeled as an administrative boundary.  The water boundary is
 sourced from PGS and does a good job in some areas but lacks much detail
 that the other provides.

 Is there a good way to make the PGS-sourced data match the Tiger data in
 certain areas to improve the accuracy?


I've seen the same thing, but on the Virginia side. I don't think there's a
magical solution, but a rather hard one. I've painstakingly manually merged
nodes, deleted ways, and modified relations so where appropriate there is a
single way referenced by the admin boundary and tagged as coastline. Very
painful and slow going, especially so when you might have to deal with
multiple relations and other messy connections.

-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER expansion bot

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 [...]
 The tiger.py file contains TIGER specific expansion code, and the
 selection process is quite simple. The selector looks for ways which
 have a highway key and a name key present in the tag.


Just to be clear (and from glancing at the code), this will only expand
type/prefix/suffix if it has a corresponding tiger:* tag? So if it is
desired to also process roads without these tiger tags, then this would be
part of a future discussion and bot run?

-Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] obsolete TIGER-tags

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:

  [...]
 Which of above tags are obsolete and should be removed after checking the
 object against aerial image and gps-tracks?


JOSM and Potlatch are conservative with removing tags, which is good
considering users can edit objects without really checking geometry or
attributes. I consider them all obsolete and remove every one whenever I've
edited a way to at least ensure the geometry is correct and abbreviations
are expanded.
-Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] obsolete TIGER-tags

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:

 Hi Josh,
 so if I understand you correct, all TIGER-tag could be removed, if the
 geometry of the object is checked and object has a name-tag?


This is what I do.


 Is this a general opinion in US-community?


I'd venture to say yes, based upon past discussions I've read, but I'll let
others weigh in.

-Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] obsolete TIGER-tags

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Brian DeRocher br...@derocher.org wrote:

 I feel it's important to maintain at least some reference to the TIGER
 edge it came from.  The edge has details like lfromadd, ltoadd, rfromaddd
 and rtoadd.  These are the house numbers on the left and right sides of
 the street.


The majority of users disregard the tlid, or for that matter any of the
tiger tags. Thus as ways are split to add detail (e.g., varying speed
limits, bridges) the identifier at best does not propagate to the
appropriate ways and at worst the identifiers no longer even match.


 This was useful to me as i connected Nomintatim to TIGER edges in order to
 interpolate a houses position along the road based on the house number.


Because of the above, the only robust way to do what you're talking about
is to match ways with TIGER edges based on geometry and names, which is
unfortunately much harder than simple tlid matching.

-Josh
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] tesco store location data

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Prime da...@primefarm.co.uk wrote:

 [...]

Now, my question is whether I should import this into OSM. Obviously the
 data is very useful (every store is categorised: metro, express, extra,
 etc) but the licencing situation is murky. Anyone want to weight in on
 whether I should do an import?
 [...]


I'd suggest first asking them. It could be a violation of their Terms of
Service, though I don't think any copyright concerns would arise.

Oh, and don't do an import. You need to conflate the data, as many stores
might already be present. Consider using the JOSM conflation plugin which
is still very alpha-quality, but worth a try.

-Josh
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Re: [OSM-talk] FYI - OpenTripPlanner instance

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
 FYI - I've finished the testing for my local instance of OpenTripPlanner [1]
 and it's ready to go live.

Very cool, thanks for sharing. I've wanted to set this up for my area
(greater Washington DC area), including all the various bus services,
but haven't found the time yet. I really like the Analyst tool as
well.

-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] Submitting POI to OSM made easy

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM, moenk moenk...@geo.hu-berlin.de wrote:
 Dear all,

 I'd like to introduce a tiny tool. It's purpose is to submit POI to the OSM
 database. The focus is not to replace things like Potlatch or JOSM, it was
 developed for Geocachers for easy POI submitting. But I'm sure you'll know
 some people who might have use for this simple mapping tool.

This looks great, thanks for doing this. However, I'd say the hardest
part of using the tool will be finding it! Make sure to update the
wiki, and put it in a prominent place (within one or two clicks from
the homepage). Perhaps change the beginners guide to include a list of
easy tools like this one, that is tools which don't require knowledge
of nodes/ways/relations, tags, or other such terminology.

For the selection page, it would be great to add search as you type,
as well as a brief description of each pulled from the wiki, synonyms
(also searchable) and a link to the wiki. These links will perhaps get
some users to dive a little deeper into OSM. It's also worth
considering using a common set of nice names as other
sites/projects, or at least add synonyms (as an American user I'd
never have known to look for Off license when I want to add a liquor
store if I hadn't seen this pull request:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/52).

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] UVM-SAL Buildings

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:25 PM, William Morris
wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote:
 Howdy Folks,

 Trying this again, after a hiatus, here is a sample of a few hundred
 buildings from a UVM-SAL land use classification. In this case it's
 for an area just west of D.C. in Montgomery County, MD. I offer it for
 your consideration before I pull the import trigger:

 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23616645/Geosprocket_Share/mont_b_1.osm

Thanks for sharing. Spatial accuracy is pretty good for an automated
process (worst I saw was 5m, usually more like 1 to 2m), though not as
good as could be done (very laboriously) by hand given the resolution
of the Bing imagery. I'd tend to say this shouldn't be uploaded en
masse, but rather somewhat selectively, but I'll let the locals make
that call.

There a few issues I see which include:
* Multipolygons aren't tagged with type=multipolygon, and the
building=yes tags should be on the relation, not on the constituent
(inner and outer) ways
* AREA and PERIMETER should not be included as they can be calculated,
and LandCover should not be included unless you can map it to a
sensible (preferably already in use) tag, and since it's all 5 I'm
guessing that's taken care of by building=yes
* Ways are overnoded quite a bit, so run Douglas-Peucker first,
experimenting with epsilon between 1m and 2m

I've been slowly making improvements to the JOSM conflation plugin,
with one goal being to facilitate the conflation of data like this
with OSM. If you could provide a version of this file before excluding
features which overlap existing OSM features, I'd like to try it out
with the plugin to see if it produces useful results. Even better
would be if you could take a look at the plugin yourself and suggest
what enhancements would make it work for this use case. Note there are
a few changes that aren't in the latest JAR available through JOSM.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs

[Josh Doe]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Dion Dock dion_d...@comcast.net wrote:
 I use mini-roundabout for turning circles with islands in the middle.  What 
 can I say, maybe I'm just lazy.  It provides a bit more information than just 
 turning circle without the work of drawing four ways.

Note that based on other discussions it appears consensus is building
around using a new tag, highway=turning_loop for this case. I've
already adopted it and changed my previous work to reflect this. Note
that it is not implemented in editors or renderings yet, that will
take some time.
-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Parks, etc. Points or outlines

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Gregory Arenius greg...@arenius.com wrote:
 If there is a point and an area I keep the area and delete the point.  If
 the point has data I'd like to keep, as is often the case when I trace a
 park on the map and want to use the name and other info from a GNIS point I
 simply copy the attributes over.  To easily copy the attributes over in JOSM
 I select the point, control+c to copy, select the way, and then
 control+shift+v copies in the attributes.  I think I used to do this in
 Potlatch but that might have been the old one.

The problem with the copy  paste method is that there might be cases
where some values are different and you won't notice (e.g. slight
spelling difference in name). These and other problems are why I
improved the Replace Geometry command; it prompts you if there are
differences (i.e. conflicts) with tags or relation memberships, and
transfers the node for you to maintain history.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Parks, etc. Points or outlines

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 In doing the remap in LA, I've run across parks, some schools and
 other map features that are marked with both points and outlines.  For La
 Cienega Park, the park is outlined, coded park and named. There also is a
 point for La Cienega Park. My initial impulse was to delete the point,
 because the outline captured so much more information, but I thought I would
 ask first.

Yes, there should be only one feature for each real world object, and
the way/multipolygon has more spatial information, however the nodes
might have other useful information like the GNIS feature ID. The best
process is to copy/merge tags and relation memberships from the node
to the area. If you use JOSM, the utilsplugin2 plugin has a Replace
Geometry command which does all this for you in one step (simply
select the node and the way, then press Ctrl+Shift+G). Read the wiki
[1] for more details. If you use Potlatch2, this is much more time
consuming.

-Josh

[1]: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/utilsplugin2#Replace_Geometry

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Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote:
 I stayed up way too late last night.  Try visiting those URLs again.
 (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so
 the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then
 come back as much as a half hour later.)  Other places that I know are
 rerendered include these:
 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0
 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0

Amazing, this looks fantastic! Can't wait to see this as the official
map of OSM US.

Is this something that could be used in a Carto stylesheet, or does it
use special syntax only supported by XML?

I know it's not really relevant to this thread, but since you have a
separate stylesheet from the standard OSM one, maybe you could reduce
the prominence of standard highway labels on residential/unclassified
highways:
http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.78332lon=-77.30564layers=B0
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4183

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Using TIGER to find missing road segments in OSM after license change

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:

 [ ... ]
 I was thinking more about using TIGER 2011
 to find roads that seem to be missing in the OSM database. My PostGIS
 skills are nil, but it seems like it should be a fairly trivial query
 to buffer the
 OSM ways and find TIGER segments which don't intersect the buffered ways.
 [ ... ]
 I started playing with this last night and ended up with the Chicago area
 metro extract from Mike and the Cook County TIGER roads data as layers in
 QGIS. Next up is to play with various queries to find missing roads in OSM.
 I like the idea of buffer and joining as a start and will probably move over
 to PostGIS to do that.

 We used OpenJUMP and the RoadMatcher plugin in the early days of
 Canadian imports to generate lists of matching or missing roads.

I've actually just converted the conflation JOSM-plugin to use the
Java Conflation Suite (JCS), which RoadMatcher is based on. I don't
expect to have RoadMatcher-like capabilities in there for quite a
while, but I should soon at least be able to find which segments don't
have a match in OSM based on string similarity (e.g. Levenshtein) and
curve similarity (e.g. Hausdorff, Frechet).

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Using TIGER to find missing road segments in OSM after license change

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 After loading Cook County TIGER road features and OSM linear features into
 PostGIS, I ran a simple query to find how well the roads matched:

 SELECT a.name, b.fullname, ST_HausdorffDistance(a.geom, b.geom) as dist
      FROM cook_tiger a, cook_osm b
      WHERE (a.geom  b.geom) AND ST_HausdorffDistance(a.geom, b.geom) 
 0.0005
      LIMIT 50

 This returned results that made sense (the names matched in all 50 results).

 I removed the LIMIT clause and let it run before going to work to see how
 many of the TIGER records match existing OSM features.

 Next up is building a table of TIGER - OSM matches and using that to find
 TIGER rows that don't have a corresponding OSM feature.

 If anyone has any ideas for speeding this up I'd love to hear it. It took
 well over a couple hours to run one county. There are a lot of counties in
 the US.

Very cool! To speed this up perhaps try limiting the number of times
ST_HausdorffDistance is executed. First only run it for ways which are
close, such as falling inside a buffer, or even faster inside a
bounding box. For a trivial speedup generate a table with distances
first, then use the WHERE clause. However I have no idea how to form
such queries!

-Josh

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[Talk-us] Using TIGER to find missing road segments in OSM after license change

[Josh Doe]

I initially just sent this to Ian Dees, but maybe there are others on this list
that are thinking of doing this or could help.

Considering the upcoming license change and it's impact (many roads
that may become missing), I was thinking more about using TIGER 2011
to find roads that seem to be missing in the OSM database. My PostGIS
skills are nil, but it seems like it should be a fairly trivial query
to buffer the
OSM ways and find TIGER segments which don't intersect the buffered ways.
Hardest part will then be scaling this up to all 3140 counties. Later we could
continue to utilize the resource by extending this work to progressively get
more intelligent by splitting ways into two node segments to get more accurate
results, and maybe do string matching to highlight name problems. Oh and
flagging of erroneous data in TIGER. And maybe stats per county, and ...

This requires hardware resources and people with skills to manage the large
database and ideally move towards weekly/daily/minutely updates, and
to generate tiles showing the missing segments. Anyone interested in
helping with this?

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Using TIGER to find missing road segments in OSM after license change

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
 Hi all,

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:

 Hardest part will then be scaling this up to all 3140 counties.

 I'd love to hear from anyone else that has ideas.


 As for scaling, it may be preferable to process counties on request, it is a
 pretty expensive operation especially when you get into the details and
 start realizing all the subqueries you'll need to get it right. The added
 advantage is that it is easier to keep track of the counties that are
 already looked at, at the expense of some overhead coding.

We'd certainly start there, and see how it goes.

 Queries to find missing roads entirely based on intersection are not likely
 to be very successful for two reasons: 1) TIGER spatial accuracy is bad
 enough to generate a lot of false positives and 2) a buffered OSM road will
 likely intersect more than one TIGER road, even if the actual road does not
 exist in JOSM.

True, but this will vary by region. My area (Fairfax County, VA) has
very high spatial accuracy since it comes from the local high quality
county database.

 What you could do is buffer all OSM roads and filter those TIGER roads that
 are more than x % outside of the resulting polygon. Those may be candidates
 for missing roads. Another interesting case for a microtasking platform by
 the way, to have people who are not necessarily experienced OSM editors
 identify the valid missing roads from the resulting dataset.

Yes, we'd definitely need to do use a %, or at least shorten each way
before buffering so as not to get all roads at intersections.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Uploads to City of Salisbury, MD

[Josh Doe]

Importing data correctly is hard, especially the first time. I'm glad
you've come to the list. I'd be curious to know if you didn't notice
the warnings on the wiki to contact the community first; I've gone
ahead and added the warning banner to the ogr2osm, shp2osm,
shp-to-osm, and shape2osm pages in case people find those before the
other import pages.

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:
 If there are duplicated ways and nodes, perhaps reverting is the best
 option?

Unfortunately I'd agree that reverting these changesets will be the
easiest and best course of action. Trust me that you'll spend a long
time cleaning up dupe nodes and ways. Some of the buildings have up to
four dupe nodes and 3 dupe ways, all from different changesets.

I've done some reversion before with the JOSM plugin, so if you'd like
I can help do this. I'd like to help you do another successful import,
so please consider sharing the original GIS files and your ogr2osm
translation files.

I very much appreciate your interest in OSM and your effort, so please
do not let this dissuade you from continuing!

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Uploads to City of Salisbury, MD

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:
 If there are duplicated ways and nodes, perhaps reverting is the best
 option?

 Unfortunately I'd agree that reverting these changesets will be the
 easiest and best course of action. Trust me that you'll spend a long
 time cleaning up dupe nodes and ways. Some of the buildings have up to
 four dupe nodes and 3 dupe ways, all from different changesets.

This is what I can tell from the first few building changesets (not an
extensive investigation):
10882159: 493 dangling nodes (REVERT)
10884039: 3517 dangling nodes (REVERT)
10885267: 1 building node (OK)
10891857: 5 dangling nodes (REVERT)
10891870: 8000 dangling nodes (REVERT)
10893364: building nodes and ways (OK?)

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Uploads to City of Salisbury, MD

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Marc Zoss marcz...@gmail.com wrote:
 I briefly downloaded all sby:bldgtype-tagged ways and relation of Maryland 
 through the overpass-api. Then removed the ones having only a sby:bldgtype 
 tag, run the validator and deleted the duplicated nodes and ways.
 This would result in a changeset to remove the roughly 71'000 duplicates 
 nodes and ways.

 If the area was edited since the import and reverting gets tricky, this might 
 be the option to go, at least the result looks ok at the first glance.

 Please also note that the conversion step seems to add a building=yes tag on 
 on inner ring of building polygons () which is certainly bad tagging, despite 
 the correct rendering (52 occurrences, so could be fixed manually).

Thanks for doing that, as that was the next step I was going to try. I
posted some regarding the changesets here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Nick_SPW#Salisbury.2C_Maryland_import

I think perhaps we should revert a subset of the changesets, such as
the dangling nodes, and then use your method to handle the rest.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Uploads to City of Salisbury, MD

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Nick Chamberlain
nchamberl...@ci.salisbury.md.us wrote:
 Mark, if you could commit the remove duplicates changeset, that'd be
 great.  I will do my best to check if the issues are resolved, and will
 gladly accept any guidance on the best ways to do so.  Thanks.

I'm reverting a few of the changesets as we speak, so if Mark could
hold off a few minutes, I'll update you all as I go. Since this only
concerns the US, future messages will only be sent on the talk-us@
list.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Uploads to City of Salisbury, MD

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Nick Chamberlain
 nchamberl...@ci.salisbury.md.us wrote:
 Mark, if you could commit the remove duplicates changeset, that'd be
 great.  I will do my best to check if the issues are resolved, and will
 gladly accept any guidance on the best ways to do so.  Thanks.

 I'm reverting a few of the changesets as we speak, so if Mark could
 hold off a few minutes, I'll update you all as I go. Since this only
 concerns the US, future messages will only be sent on the talk-us@
 list.

I've reverted a few of them (see [0]), but when I checked #10901301
(2 nodes), it couldn't revert cleanly, since some nodes are
danglers, while others are used for ways in subsequent uploads. I'll
stop for now, but maybe Mark can take a look at things now?

-Josh

[0]: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Nick_SPW#Salisbury.2C_Maryland_import

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Re: [OSM-talk] Database Rebuild scheduled to start on the 27th of March 2012

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:
 On 21/03/12 08:26, Simon Poole wrote:

 See http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Rebuild_Plan

 I think that date is very unlikely to be met.

Putting it a little differently, how confident is the Rebuild Team
that all of those tasks can be accomplished and thoroughly tested
following that schedule? Personally, I've never seen a schedule so
ambitious, especially for an all-volunteer group.  Is the OSMF board
putting their full trust in the Rebuild Team, such that if the team
says the schedule cannot be met without any doubts (e.g. of data
integrity being compromised), then OSMF will postpone the rebuild?
Since I don't think OSMF has any choice but to rely on the Team (since
they're the only ones with the skills to do this), does the Rebuild
Team have the courage to tell the OSMF no; not yet?

Should this discussion be taking place on osmf-talk?
-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] More TIGER importing

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
 [snip]

  Just converting the TIGER shapefiles into OSM format is a challenge - I've
 uploaded a copy of Yuba county from 2011 -

 http://www.greenvilleopenmap.info/Yuba_CA.zip

Alexander,
I'd recommend you use this data for testing the process only, but not
uploading, as it has not been processed thoroughly yet. I personally
believe, and I think consensus is growing, that none of the tiger:*
tags should be imported (I delete all of them after working on a way).
Ref tags should be populated with the route number, such as SR 20,
and oneway tags seem to be missing from dual carriageways. Also, the
segments need to be glommed, that is joining multiple ways with the
same tags into one way, to make future editing easier.

In other words, please be careful, it is not a simple process.

The only thing I would add is that you should only do a very small
section, such as a new subdivision, then come back to this list and
let us know the changeset ID/link so we can take a look at it.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Remapping from TIGER 2011

[Josh Doe]

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
 On 3/11/2012 6:48 PM, Toby Murray wrote:

  I just wrote up a quick
 blog post about it and would welcome any comments on the subject.

Great, thanks for sharing! I've added a link to the wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Manual_conflation

  Last year I did all the new subdivisions in my whole county using TIGER
 2010 against the original import.   There were approximately 120 new
 subdivisions to add since then.   It was all a manual process.  I want to
 revisit Josh's handy new conflation plugin some more with this process in
 mind.

Do you find the new subdivisions manually as well?

Just a point of clarification regarding my conflation plugin [0];
currently it is geared towards finding 1-to-1 correspondences, such as
matching GNIS nodes to areas. It does not handle N-to-M
correspondences like you'll have with roads, and it doesn't take care
of topology issues. However there is another user working on a TIGER
conflation plugin which should handle these things, but I'm not sure
how far he is from having something usable. That being said, I am
sorely in need of getting feedback on the design of my conflation
plugin. :)

-Josh

[0]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/Conflation

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[OSM-talk] Wikipedia, vector overlays and KML

[Josh Doe]

I just came across efforts to embed KML in Wikipedia pages, which is
then used for linking to Google and Bing, and overlaying the KML
vector data on the WikiMiniAtlas (globe in upper right) [0][1] (began
as Proposal 9[6]). There's a pending bot request to add this for all
U.S. counties [2]. Another user is planning to add KML for all United
States U.S. and state routes [3][4]. A user created a tutorial for
creating a KML file to be uploaded to Wikipedia by tracing the feature
in Google Earth [5].

There is a brief mention of possibly using OSM data at some point to
generate KML, but I thought people here might be interested in these
developments, which aren't well advertised beyond a few talk pages.
There are many things I could say about this so far, but it's
interesting that no one so far seems to see any problem considering
data traced from Google Earth as compatible with CC-BY-SA.

-Josh

P.S. I never realized how awful it can be to have complicated
discussions occur on talk pages!

[0]: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Methods_for_map_links_for_linear_features_.26_outlines
[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Attached_KML
[2]: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/DschwenBot
[3]: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:The_Anome#Coord_missing_and_the_new_linear_feature_KML_thing
[4]: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Autogeneration_of_U.S._highway_KML
[5]: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_U.S._Roads/Maps_task_force/Tutorial#Creating_a_KML_file
[6]: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Highways/Archive_4#Proposal_9:_Shapefiles

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Re: [Talk-us] MapQuest Open Maps

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:15 AM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Just wanted to let you guys know and give kudos to MapQuest for doing
 something that Google hasn't done with their maps EVER.

 MapQuest is either fully reading the ref tag or using the tags from
 relations, but they are now properly showing Business Interstates and Truck
 US Highways now on the Open maps!

 Here's an example URL that shows both: http://mapq.st/webeBo

 Now, all they need to do is get shields to show up for multiple routes on
 the same road. :)

Very nice. They need to not render ref's for residential/unclassified
roads though, at least not at this zoom!
http://mapq.st/AoawIZ

OSM.org Mapnik has the same problem, for which I created a ticket:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4183

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Adding Tiger 2011 Data

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
 wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:

 Please don't any more for a bit. Share with the list your recent
 changesets, and the scripts you are using to convert the files. Also see the
 manual conflation article on the wiki for my process. I can send a link when
 I'm at a desktop.

 I'm not using scripts.  It is all manual cut and past as described in the
 manual conflation wiki article.  After copying the tiger data, the new way
 needs to be assigned the appropriate highway type, in my case it is all
 residential.  Then the name needs to be added.  Copying in the tiger data
 gives a Key value of FULLNAME.  The FULLNAME is copied into a name key.
  With the street names in this area of Tucson, the direction, i.e. N is
 expanded and the suffix, ln, dr, pl, etc. also need expanding.   As you
 mention in the wiki, the new ways need to be connected to the existing ways.


 The important part is what tool you used to generate the OSM files from
 TIGER2011 data in the first place. Did you download it from somewhere?

Yes, I meant scripts that generated the OSM files. I converted my
county's data (which has more attributes and is more recent than
TIGER, but feeds into it) to OSM files, which I documented here (not
mentioned is the glomming I did to join segments with identical
attributes, or the simplifying I did):
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Fairfax_County,_Virginia/Roads

and have been using it with the manual conflation process I described here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Manual_conflation

It does take quite some practice to do correctly and efficiently.
-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Adding Tiger 2011 Data

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 I pulled up this area in JOSM:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.31342lon=-111.02699zoom=15layers=M

 Something definitely went wrong here that you need to figure out and fix.

 ...

Additional issues include tags that should not be there, such as
COUNTYFP, LINEARID, MTFCC, RTTYP, STATEFP. These don't add any useful
information to OSM. Street suffix expansions can be done automatically
as shown on my ogr2osm translation file for Fairfax County (though
admittedly I don't do anything about North/South prefixes, though
those are fairly rare in my county.

Also

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Re: [Talk-us] Adding Tiger 2011 Data

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 I pulled up this area in JOSM:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.31342lon=-111.02699zoom=15layers=M

 Something definitely went wrong here that you need to figure out and fix.

 ...

 Additional issues include tags that should not be there, such as
 COUNTYFP, LINEARID, MTFCC, RTTYP, STATEFP. These don't add any useful
 information to OSM. Street suffix expansions can be done automatically
 as shown on my ogr2osm translation file for Fairfax County (though
 admittedly I don't do anything about North/South prefixes, though
 those are fairly rare in my county.

 Also

(GMail keyboard shortcuts sent this prematurely)

If you run the JOSM validation tool, then it catches the dupe nodes
and missing intersections. Always run validation before any upload,
and preferably run it over the entire downloaded set of data to ensure
you're connecting the new roads with existing roads (the validation
run before uploading only checks objects you've actually modified).

-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tile Drawer now plays nicely with TileMill

[Josh Doe]

Excellent, I look forward to trying this out!
Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] Analysis of US road network and TIGER status

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
 Hi,

 I did an state-by-state and county-by-county analysis of the road
 network in the US. I focused particularly on TIGER and user-related
 metrics.
 Results (with maps of course) are here:
 https://oegeo.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/the-state-of-the-openstreetmap-road-network-in-the-us/
 I'd love to hear your ideas for further analysis, and other feedback.

Great work! I'd like to see a comparison between road lengths of the
two datasets, and maybe do some buffer analysis to find the length of
roads that aren't anywhere near each other. Also glad to see someone
found ogr2poly useful.
-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Finding untagged dead-ends

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is there a way (in JOSM or otherwise) to find all dead-ends (nodes contained
 in only one highway way) without highway=turning_circle or noexit=yes in an
 area?

There's a ticket that would help accomplish this [0]. You could then
do a search like -(highway=mini_roundabout OR highway=turning_circle
OR noexit=yes) child:0,-1 highway=* type:way. At the moment I can't
think of a way to select nodes with only one parent way. If I'm not
missing something and this functionality isn't implemented yet, it
wouldn't be hard, just need to create a ticket and choose an
appopriate keyword: nparents nchildren?

-Josh

[0]: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/7262

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Re: [OSM-talk] Finding untagged dead-ends

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 8:48 AM, John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Something I'd like to have a way of highlighting, as I've been doing
 quite a bit of electricity distribution mapping, is power lines /
 minor_lines that end in something other than a transformer or pole.
 (In fact, any non-power tags on a power line are probably suspect, but
 one ending in an untagged node is likely to mean that it needs
 completion.)

This could be accomplished if the ticket [0] is implemented. Not many
people do it, but I'd highly suggest people start up-voting tickets
they'd like to see implemented. I have a lot of varying interests in
JOSM, but if I knew what features/defects were important to a number
of people, I'd certainly prioritize those. You can up-vote by logging
in, going to a ticket, and clicking the up arrow in the upper right.

[0]: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/7262

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Re: [Talk-us] National Bridge Inventory

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:56 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 2/14/2012 6:37 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

 Hi,

 Has anyone ever looked into using the National Bridge Inventory
 (NBI)[1] for adding missing bridges to OSM in the US? I'm pretty sure
 TIGER does not have (most) bridges and I'm very sure the community has
 not added all the 600k bridges that are in the NBI.
 There should be sufficient information in the NBI to match to existing
 OSM features: the name of road on and under the bridge and location
 (as a point) are recorded.


 I think it would be very useful as a Keepright-style site that automatically
 checks for a bridge there but also allows saying the NBI data is bogus.
 (Perhaps we could then send any such information to the NBI?) Anything more
 automated than that would really not work due to location differences, name
 differences, and other issues.

+1 regarding Keepright. I've thought about doing something with NBI
before, but it got pushed down the (long) queue.
-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Planning to import NHD data for VT's White River (Subbasin 01080105). Seeking advice on making import community friendly.

[Josh Doe]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Scott probiscu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello All,

 I have been working on preparing the Natonal Hydrography Dataset (NHD -
 There's an OSM wiki page for this source) data for the White River
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.68435lon=-72.3982zoom=16) in Vermont
 for import to OpenStreetMap. In general, this seems to be a good candidate
 for import, as there has not been a lot of work done in mapping the water
 features in this region.

 I have read the NHD wiki pages as well as the pages on importing. I have in
 particular read that imports can be detrimental to the OpenStreetMap
 community, and would like to do my best to reduce and/or avoid this affect
 as best as I can. I think the most important thing I can do is to try to
 make sure the results follow K.I.S.S. principles, so here is what I am doing
 so far:

 - Features have been simplified before conversion to OSM to remove many
 excessive points, particularly in small streams.
 - Split areas into what I think are manageable chunks. No ways with  350
 nodes, 5 ways  300 nodes,  20 ways with  200 nodes. I have double
 verified that the Shapefile to OSM conversion tool does not introduce
 duplicate nodes.
 - A minimum of unnecessary tags will be used. Tags common to the entire
 dataset will instead be placed on the dedicated import users' wiki page.
 - Multipolygon relations with only outer ways have been substituted with
 single closed ways/areas.


 Additionally, I have
 - sent messages to all users who have added potentially conflicting
 water/river features in the area I will be importing to. The responses I
 have received thus far have been basically positive or neutral.
 - taken note of the few features which would potentially overlap in NHD and
 am taking steps to avoid uploading those parts of the data, in favor of
 keeping user mapped features.
 - checked my converted OSM data against both the Bing aerial imagery and the
 OpenStreetMap/Mapnik tiles available in JOSM to ensure that the data makes
 sense and that rivers will not overlap roads, etc.
 - kept a record of the process I am following, to be placed on the dedicated
 users' wiki page.


 So, basically I am looking for thoughts and advice on how to ensure this
 import will be a success, not just after importing, but in the future. I am
 particularly interested in pointers on how to best facilitate future
 modifications and enhancements by other mappers and myself.

 Sounds to me like you've done an excellent job, going above and beyond
 what most do. I would suggest you post your process on the wiki now,
 and put the converted/modified files online somewhere for review, like
 on Dropbox. I'm not sure what you are asking about how to best
 facilitate future modifications and enhancements, whether in regards
 to the import process or the OSM data itself.

 Additionally, I would be happy to make my converted and modified data
 available to someone for review, if any one is interested.

  If you don't have Dropbox or any webspace I can put them up for you.

I took a look at the files you sent me, and they seem in good shape.
Certainly the geometry isn't perfect in places, but it's definitely
good enough to use IMHO. It can be fairly easily refined over time,
using the ImproveWayAccuracy tool in JOSM to make the process much
easier and faster. I'd say go for it and then send us a list of the
changesets.

-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: OSM tracker beta

[Josh Doe]

Glad to see more OSM development on Android, but it seems these
capabilities are all a subset of OSMTracker. I'll try it out later
though. I would like to see improvements to OSMTracker, like offline
maps, tappable/editable waypoints, and export to OSM.XML instead of
just GPX. Or perhaps combine OSMTracker/JPSTrack capabilities into
OsmAnd.
-Josh

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 New OSM data-collection software for Android:

 Collects GPX track tiles
 Collects voice notes
 Collects text notes
 Collects photos

 Have a look.

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Ian Darwin

 My osm tracker for Android is (finally!) ready for people to play with
 before I put it into the Market, at

 http://darwinsys.com/jpstrack/.

 If you can test it, or have friends that can, or mention it at the
 next Mappy Hour if I dont make it, I'd be grateful.

 Thanks
 Ian

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Re: [Talk-us] Contacting high-impact undecided users in the US

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 For starters I tried to find one of the users, David Speakman, and
 after a bit of searching have found his LinkedIn page, two domains
 registered to him, from which I got his email, phone number, and
 address. Anyone familiar with Mountain View, CA or Fort Wayne, IN (his
 two big edit areas) willing to contact him? If so I'll send his info.

I sent an email to this user, and not only did he accept, but he's
made nearly 30 changes in the past 19 hours since he accepted! For
reference, here's the text I sent, based on one from Simon Poole:

Dear FIRST LAST,
You haven't been active in the OpenStreetMap project for quite a
while, but I see that you've made quite a lot of contributions in and
around SPECIFIC_AREAS [0]. In fact, you are the
RANKth most prolific contributor in the USA! [1]

Since you haven't been active since LAST_EDIT_DATE, you may have
missed that the last phase of the re-licensing process has started. In
other words, if you do not agree to the new contributor terms the
community will have to remove and remap the data that you have
contributed, mostly in and around SPECIFIC_AREAS.

Even if you don't intend to actively participate in the future, it
would still be important for all other users and mappers if you could
license your data under the new license.

Here is the official announcement:
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/We_Are_Changing_The_License

You can see your user account here (username is USERNAME):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/USERNAME

You can accept the license in the profile of your OSM account or here
after logging in:
http://openstreetmap.org/user/terms

If you've forgotten your password and no longer have access to the
email you originally used with the account (to reset the password),
you can email webmas...@openstreetmap.org to reset your password.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email or call me.

-YOUR_NAME

YOUR_EMAIL
YOUR_PHONE

[0]: http://yosmhm.neis-one.org/?USERNAME - This page shows a
heatmap of your contributions to OSM
[1]: http://odbl.poole.ch/usa-20111208-20120208-poly.html - This page
shows users which haven't agreed to the new terms yet

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[Talk-us] Contacting high-impact undecided users in the US

[Josh Doe]

I've been looking through the list of undecided users for the US [0],
and have noticed that many at the top of the list haven't been
contacted, at least according to the wiki [1]. How about we make a
concerted effort to work our way down the list, exhausting search
engines and social networking sites to find other ways of contacting
them? I think using the existing wiki list [1] would be too much, so
perhaps we can create a separate page to document the progress.

Does anyone have a better template email than the one on the wiki? Of
course we should mention specifically where they've edited, perhaps
using the heatmap to make this easier [2].

For starters I tried to find one of the users, David Speakman, and
after a bit of searching have found his LinkedIn page, two domains
registered to him, from which I got his email, phone number, and
address. Anyone familiar with Mountain View, CA or Fort Wayne, IN (his
two big edit areas) willing to contact him? If so I'll send his info.

-Josh

[0]: http://odbl.poole.ch, specifically
http://odbl.poole.ch/usa-20111208-20120201-poly.html
[1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Asking_users_to_accept_the_ODbL
[2]: http://yosmhm.neis-one.org

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Re: [Talk-us] Finding new roads

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote:
 I believe that OSm's most usefull attribute is to be up to date.

 The only real way to do this is with a local mapper but bringing
 the USA up to Tiger 2011 up-to-datedness would be a great start.


 Are there tools to

 1. Compare named OSM roads with Tiger 2011 roads and highlight
 just the  new ones.

 2.Compare Bing imagery with Tiger 2011 and highlight any
 apparent sealed roads that do not have Tiger 2011 ways.

 Roads currently traced but not named can already be targeted
 well using OSMI highways facility and could be fixed first.

I've been meaning to do some buffer analysis in my county to find
roads that are missing or grossly misplaced [0]. Doing it for a county
or for the whole US isn't that much different aside from computation
time and disk usage. Of course this doesn't catch name or
classification differences, but it would be a help.
-Josh

[0]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BMO#Differential_import

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Re: [OSM-talk] Subscribe to feeds of changes in your area with Changepipe

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote:
 Hi,

 I'm experimenting with minutely diffs and I made this:
        http://migurski.github.com/Changepipe/

 Want me to bake you a feed of fresh OSM changesets for your area? Draw a 
 polygon and mail to me following the directions on the page!

 Yes, cool. I'd love to try it.
 I just drew something. Finished up with a double click. Polygon turns
 orange. The box below says 'draw something above'. Repeat.

It's not entirely intuitive. The 'send me an email' mailto link
includes the polygon in the body.
-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] problem with measurement plugin in JOSM

[Josh Doe]

I haven't checked it out, but the appropriate place to report possible
bugs is the Trac system for JOSM. Create a new ticket here specifying
the component as Plugin measurement:
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket

-Josh

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 3:28 AM, Hendrik Oesterlin
hendrikmail2...@yahoo.de wrote:
 Hello,

 using JOSM 4878 the measurement plugin gives wrong values for the
 area. It seems to be approx 3,3 times lesser as real.

 Can anyone confirm?

 Kindly
 Hendrik
 aka Hendrik75


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Re: [Talk-us] Problem with an Armchair user

[Josh Doe]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Sam Iacullo sjiacu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Dear All,

 I am having a problem with the user NE2 (
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NE2/edits). Since the beginning of the
 year, he has been making massive, broad spectrum changes in Texas. The
 edits he's done have been without regard to the appropriate and established
 tagging system, and work that has already been completed. After messaging
 him, I found out that he's in Florida, and has absolutely NO local
 knowledge of the roads he's editing.

 I have spent about 25 hours a week working on Texas since I joined OSM in
 November 2010. In some areas, I actually drove several hours to make sure
 that I was getting the correct designation. I feel at a loss as to what to
 do, since I can't even come close to describe what he's doing to my beloved
 state. Is there anything you can do to help?


NE2 is a well known and prolific user. Please be more specific on what he's
doing that you disagree with, and link to specific changesets and/or
objects. I'm assuming you've already discussed this issue with him and
can't come to an agreement.

-Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER 2011 Road Tiles

[Josh Doe]

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 In order to assist with road name checking I've set up a Mapnik layer
 rendering from TIGER 2011 ROADS data. It consists of a transparent tile with
 a white line (of varying thickness for the different MTFCC's) for the road
 and white text for the road's full name. I did this with JOSM in mind (which
 will stack imagery layers). I haven't tested it in P2 but would be happy to
 set up a different style for users of P2. It's designed for higher zooms and
 I don't do anything particular for low zooms. In fact it looks pretty noisy
 and slow, but it still works.

 The JOSM TMS URL is
 http://{switch:a,b,c}.tile.openstreetmap.us/tiger2011_roads/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.png

 I have grand plans to create vector layers as well (to allow for
 spot-importing of TIGER data), but I don't have time to do that currently.
 Let me know if you have any ideas to make it better.

Great, thanks for doing this! The white works well with a downloaded
data layer in JOSM, but definitely not with a OSM-Mapnik background.
Are there any tiles out there that have just highways (preferably
dark), with a transparent background? That would make this tool
excellent for spotting discrepancies, at high and low zoom levels.

Thanks, I'll be sure and look at this more later.
-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change

[Josh Doe]

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
 There are several things we can do together to minimize the data loss
 and ensure a smooth changeover to the new license:
 * Contact mappers who have declined or not agreed yet.

I've heard this theme over and over again, that the majority of
undecided users have likely just changed email addresses, and aren't
even aware that their contributions are going to be lost. Why don't we
try and do a little PR campaign? Make up a press release, and at least
try and get some of the nerd-friendly sites (Slashdot comes to mind)
to carry a prominent article/post with a catchy headline like Ever
contributed to OpenStreetMap? If you don't act by April 1 your work
will be lost. Create a simple list of the names of undecided users so
people can quickly search for usernames they typically use, in case
they forgot. Who knows, this might catch a lot of people.

-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] user diaries not included in blog feed?

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Michael Krämer ohr...@googlemail.com wrote:
 recently I have wondered, why people don't use the user diaries in OSM
 anymore - simply because I didn't notice these messages in the feed
 I'm monitoring. Today I re-checked and to me it looks like the entries
 from http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary are not included in
 http://blogs.openstreetmap.org/ anymore. I am pretty sure that they
 used to be part of the feed in the past.

 Is this an intended change I missed to notice or a bug?

It seems to me that the user diary RSS feed is broken:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary/rss

The last update is from December 17, 2011. I find this hard to believe
that no one has noticed this until now, so I feel like I must be
missing something.

-Josh

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Re: [OSM-talk] user diaries not included in blog feed?

[Josh Doe]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:
 On 12/01/12 12:56, Josh Doe wrote:

 It seems to me that the user diary RSS feed is broken:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary/rss

 The last update is from December 17, 2011. I find this hard to believe
 that no one has noticed this until now, so I feel like I must be
 missing something.


 No, nobody has reported that at all.

 Please open a ticket and I'll look at it, but it will probably have to wait
 until tomorrow as I'm out tonight.

Done and thanks:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4181

-Josh

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[Talk-us] User adding many Safeway grocery stores, with ref number in name

[Josh Doe]

Seems all recent edits have been just adding Safeway stores:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Brian@Brea

The edits seem good (adding building outlines), though I'm not sure about
putting the store number in the name, I've always put that in the ref tag.
What do you think, should we ask the user to change this?
Josh
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] US Golf Courses from GNIS

[Josh Doe]

I've noticed in my area golf course nodes added that already exist:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556625188
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556629688
and others

I support reverting this changeset ASAP.

Golf Geek,
Let's instead take the work you've done and split it up into state
sized chunks (e.g. via Osmosis). Then several contributors including
yourself can manually merge the nodes a state at a time. Thank you for
your interest in this, and for coming forward on the mailing list.
Trust me that this is not the first time this kind of thing has
happened, but you did the right thing coming here and letting us know.

Regards,
-Josh

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:03 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 More problems I found by just downloading all leisure=golf_course
 objects and randomly browsing around some of Kansas/Nebraska with Bing
 imagery.

 Can't idenfity on aerial. I could just be missing it. Or GNIS position
 might be off by a lot. Some are in the middle of a town without so
 much as a full block of grass anywhere near them. Or it may have been
 closed but is still in GNIS. It is unlikely that it is a new golf
 course. Bing imagery seems to be pretty recent (2010) in most areas I
 looked at.
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624422
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638495
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556635779
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556635714
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624015
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556625367
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556625957
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556631507
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638863


 Two golf courses in close proximity that are probably the same course,
 maybe known by two different names:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638410
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556627728
 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624801
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556639241


 Were these not in GNIS or were they excluded because of an existing
 way? Could have maybe used GNIS data to add a name to the existing
 way:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/46342164
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/43332671
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/42280171
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/98180901
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/129025203
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/126614718

 Toby



 On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Golf Geek golfgeek2...@hotmail.com wrote:
 After reviewing the Import/Guidelines wiki, I realize I should have posted
 here first, but here's a quick after action report on a recent import.
 Better late than never. :)

 Why didn't you read this before the import? This should not be viewed
 as optional.

 I noticed that although USGS GNIS data had been imported into OSM in the
 past, the US golf course locations provided as GNIS Locales had not been
 included.

 So, I retrieved GNIS Locales with Golf in the name from
 http://geonames.usgs.gov/ and saved them as OSM nodes, using these tags:

 gnis:Class = Locale
 gnis:County = [various]
 gnis:ST_alpha = [various]
 gnis:id = [various]
 leisure = golf_course
 name = [various]
 source = USGS GNIS

 From the list of ~6000 nodes, I removed any that overlapped with existing
 OSM golf_course nodes or ways.

 You apparently failed to take into account how terrible GNIS spatial
 accuracy can actually be:
 Your node: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556636801
 Existing way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/70764331

 Yes, that over a mile off. This is why the import guidelines say to
 discuss it with the community FIRST. There is much collected knowledge
 about imports in the community which can prevent such common mistakes.

 The remaining 4421 nodes were then added as Changeset 10168800.

 The data license is OK (USGS GNIS has been used before), and the new nodes
 should not screw up existing data (although I am sure they are not perfect),
 so hopefully this import will be a good starting point for further manual
 edits.

 With nodes that are off by a mile, I am doubtful of this claim. So
 far, I have only looked at that one node so far. Others, please check
 more in your area. If mine is an outlier then I'll just fix it. If
 there are many more that are as bad as this one, I would propose
 reverting this import, especially since import guidelines were not
 followed.

 Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] US Golf Courses from GNIS

[Josh Doe]

I just pulled in the changeset, and only three nodes have been changed:
Name corrected:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624529/history

Position moved:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638779/history

And deleted:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556629698/history

I'd suggest this be reverted tonight, keeping the two corrected nodes.
Also, when we re-import this (more slowly), I don't think we need any
of the gnis tags except for the ID, which should probably use
gnis:feature_id.

If I get a chance and no objections, I'll revert this tonight (~8
hours from now).
-Josh

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 I've noticed in my area golf course nodes added that already exist:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556625188
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556629688
 and others

 I support reverting this changeset ASAP.

 Golf Geek,
 Let's instead take the work you've done and split it up into state
 sized chunks (e.g. via Osmosis). Then several contributors including
 yourself can manually merge the nodes a state at a time. Thank you for
 your interest in this, and for coming forward on the mailing list.
 Trust me that this is not the first time this kind of thing has
 happened, but you did the right thing coming here and letting us know.

 Regards,
 -Josh

 On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:03 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 More problems I found by just downloading all leisure=golf_course
 objects and randomly browsing around some of Kansas/Nebraska with Bing
 imagery.

 Can't idenfity on aerial. I could just be missing it. Or GNIS position
 might be off by a lot. Some are in the middle of a town without so
 much as a full block of grass anywhere near them. Or it may have been
 closed but is still in GNIS. It is unlikely that it is a new golf
 course. Bing imagery seems to be pretty recent (2010) in most areas I
 looked at.
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624422
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638495
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556635779
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556635714
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624015
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556625367
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556625957
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556631507
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638863


 Two golf courses in close proximity that are probably the same course,
 maybe known by two different names:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556638410
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556627728
 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556624801
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556639241


 Were these not in GNIS or were they excluded because of an existing
 way? Could have maybe used GNIS data to add a name to the existing
 way:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/46342164
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/43332671
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/42280171
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/98180901
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/129025203
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/126614718

 Toby



 On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Golf Geek golfgeek2...@hotmail.com wrote:
 After reviewing the Import/Guidelines wiki, I realize I should have posted
 here first, but here's a quick after action report on a recent import.
 Better late than never. :)

 Why didn't you read this before the import? This should not be viewed
 as optional.

 I noticed that although USGS GNIS data had been imported into OSM in the
 past, the US golf course locations provided as GNIS Locales had not been
 included.

 So, I retrieved GNIS Locales with Golf in the name from
 http://geonames.usgs.gov/ and saved them as OSM nodes, using these tags:

 gnis:Class = Locale
 gnis:County = [various]
 gnis:ST_alpha = [various]
 gnis:id = [various]
 leisure = golf_course
 name = [various]
 source = USGS GNIS

 From the list of ~6000 nodes, I removed any that overlapped with existing
 OSM golf_course nodes or ways.

 You apparently failed to take into account how terrible GNIS spatial
 accuracy can actually be:
 Your node: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1556636801
 Existing way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/70764331

 Yes, that over a mile off. This is why the import guidelines say to
 discuss it with the community FIRST. There is much collected knowledge
 about imports in the community which can prevent such common mistakes.

 The remaining 4421 nodes were then added as Changeset 10168800.

 The data license is OK (USGS GNIS has been used before), and the new nodes
 should not screw up existing data (although I am sure they are not 
 perfect),
 so hopefully this import will be a good starting point for further manual
 edits.

 With nodes that are off by a mile, I am doubtful of this claim. So
 far, I

Re: [OSM-talk] tools for the transition (was: Editing of content that will be deleted on April 1st)

[Josh Doe]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:



 Am 14.12.2011 14:08, schrieb Hillsman, Edward:

 Two requests to help us prioritize our work:
 .

 Right now we are remapping and contacting in the dark. Bad customer
 service is We are changing things, you deal with it. Good customer service
 is We need to make some changes, we understand that this is disruptive, we
 want to make this as easy as possible for you, here is what we are doing to
 help you during the change, and although we definitely are going to make the
 change, we are open to suggestions about how to make the transition less
 onerous.

 I am hoping that the work that Mikal Maron mentioned to respond to
 comments made yesterday will lead to making better information available.


 There is no we and you, while at some time in the future the LWG may
 give its official seal of approval to whatever the rules are, it is up
 to the community to actually come up with that set of rules.

Perhaps I'm not the only one that has been confused, but this is what
I've discovered from the last few LWG minutes [1] and the wiki:
* This wiki page will be the official list of rules for cleaning the
database, but it is still under discussion:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/What_is_clean%3F
* Richard Weait will draft sub-phases to get us to the April 1st
cleaning; this will presumably include a date to have a solid list of
rules in place

I would hope that we can have a date for a solid set of rules at least
three months before the database cleaning begins.

-Josh

[1]: 
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes#Licensing_Working_Group

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Re: [OSM-talk] GNIS quality improvement, was: USGS Topo maps

[Josh Doe]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:

  On that matter -- I've been working on an idea for a GNIS microtasking
  platform. What it would do is:

  * Show a random non-improved GNIS point in your neighborhood - name +
    map

  * Allow you to 1) drag the point to the correct location, 2) flag it
    as no longer existing or 3) flag it as incorrect name.

  * The collected improvements would be pushed to OpenStreetBugs or
    something similar.

 That makes sense, but how do you deal with logging the modifier of the
 data - is this a webapp, and do people log in with OAuth?

I think the best microtasking apps are ones that don't require any
registration, as you want the lowest barrier to entry. This of course
means the user won't be making the actual changes to OSM, but rather
an OSM contributor will review and make the changes themselves.
Alternatively, you could create an OSM account for the microtasking
platform (I think Wheelmap.org does this), and wait for every point
to be corrected at least N (perhaps 2 or 3) times, and to be within
some tolerance of each other (perhaps 10 meters) (I believe the Bing
microtasking app does this for building entrances).

It would be nice to also allow OSM registered users to make the
changes immediately, you just don't want to force everyone to create
an account.

 I wonder if you can make this a JOSM plugin.

That would be nice, but it's definitely no longer a microtasking app,
at least not in my view (meaning it's not a web app).

-Josh

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[Talk-us] 12-/6-/3-inch orthimagery of metro areas in Virginia

[Josh Doe]

I've obtained portions of 2009 leaf-off orthoimagery of Virginia from
the USGS as GeoTIFFs, and would like to know if anyone can host some
of it, or if anyone would like a selected region of it. Total size is
752GB. This is newer and better than anything else I know of for these
regions, but these aren't available online from USGS yet (not until
late 2012/early 2013 from what I've been told). Since these were
captured before the spring, they are excellent for seeing paths and
other features through tree cover.

Roughly the resolution and coverage are:
3-inch: Alexandria, small northern portion of Stafford
6-inch: Fairfax County, Falls Church, Richmond, Stafford,
Chesterfield, Hopewell, James City, Williamsburg, York, Portsmouth
12-inch: Portions of Loudoun, Prince William, Fredericksburg, greater
metro Richmond and Tidewater

I made a quick and dirty map showing the coverage:
http://imgur.com/wG5zD

Metadata can be downloaded here (including Shapefiles of tile boundaries):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23634456/usgs_hro_virginia_2009_metadata.zip
http://www.crocko.com/24AB9BD7D32743C7B7BEA7E8F40E2768/usgs_hro_virginia_2009_metadata.zip
(mirror)

Some more details can be found here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Virginia#2009_VBMP_Orthoimagery
http://www.vita.virginia.gov/isp/default.aspx?id=12118#2009VBMP

I also have imagery from the 2006/2007 collections of the northern
half of the state, which you can read more about here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Virginia#2006.2F2007_VBMP_Orthoimagery
http://www.vita.virginia.gov/isp/default.aspx?id=12118#20062007VBMP

-Josh

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