[OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
that important things like changing the well established logo of the
project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Grant Slater]

On 30 April 2011 12:56, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
> that important things like changing the well established logo of the
> project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
> the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?
>

I like the new logo, it is not radically different and is an iterative
improvement from the last.

It was discussed at yesterday's Strategic irc meet:
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-04-29

Also discussed on the strategic list:
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/strategic/2011-April/000372.html

Feel free to join the IRC meet, the next one is at Friday 06 May 2011
@ 1600UTC in irc channel #osm-strategic on OFTC, else join via
http://irc.openstreetmap.org/

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Simon Poole]

Grant

While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG 
(Web Design Working Group) (it does seem to be a bit outside it's 
charter ...), I believe Martin issue is with the rampant re-active 
instead of pro-active information policy that infects all parts of OSM. 
Not that I don't understand some of the reasons for this, but on the 
other hand it does, unnecessarily, create a fair amount of animosity.


While we are on the subject of the WDWG (:-)) I would like to point out 
that there is at least one complete mock-up of an alternative front page 
that many consider superior to what is currently in use. I'll see if I 
can find a reference to that later today.


Simon

Am 30.04.2011 14:10, schrieb Grant Slater:

On 30 April 2011 12:56, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
that important things like changing the well established logo of the
project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?


I like the new logo, it is not radically different and is an iterative
improvement from the last.

It was discussed at yesterday's Strategic irc meet:
  http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-04-29

Also discussed on the strategic list:
  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/strategic/2011-April/000372.html

Feel free to join the IRC meet, the next one is at Friday 06 May 2011
@ 1600UTC in irc channel #osm-strategic on OFTC, else join via
http://irc.openstreetmap.org/

Regards
  Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Jonas Krückel]

Am 30.04.2011 um 15:05 schrieb Simon Poole:

> Grant
> 
> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web 
> Design Working Group) (it does seem to be a bit outside it's charter ...), I 
> believe Martin issue is with the rampant re-active instead of pro-active 
> information policy that infects all parts of OSM. Not that I don't understand 
> some of the reasons for this, but on the other hand it does, unnecessarily, 
> create a fair amount of animosity.

+1
I think it would have been more than appropriate to notify the community about 
such an important change.
A short email/blog post/forum post telling the community that
– the logo has been changed
– why the logo has been changed
– who made the decision and why they decided to go with this one
– and where to find the new logo as .png and .svg files so that they can update 
their own projects and websites
would have been enough and not much work for someone from Strategic to write.

-- Jonas
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

From: Simon Poole 
> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web 
>Design Working Group) (it does seem to be a bit outside it's charter ...), I  
>believe Martin issue is with the 
>
> rampant re-active instead of pro-active information policy that infects all 
>parts of OSM. Not that I don't understand some of the reasons for this, but on 
>the other hand it does, unnecessarily, create 
>
> a fair amount of animosity

SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way 
users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it, and 
we're trying to put together the right _approach_ to improve it. Many of the 
issues and possible solutions are known, but OSM has been stuck on how to 
implement for a long time. So we're trying to figure out the plan. That's 
different from actually doing the design work.

Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would be 
a 
good start. We simply said to the coders in the group ... implement one idea, 
individually, for the site and make a pull request. The logo was the first.

Agreed, that a blog post on the logo would've been a simple and good move. I'll 
ask for this now.

Cheers
-Mikel
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   I don't have issues with the process (I wasn't involved in selecting 
the old logo so I don't mind others caring for that). But I think that 
something is technically wrong with the new logo; I think if you were 
looking at a magnifying glass from the angle chosen here, the end of the 
handle would not be visible like it is here. It's hard to 
pinpoint/describe this exactly for someone who is as untalented in 
drawing things as I am, but I've tried to sketch what I think would be 
 more "correct" version here:


http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png
http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osm_logo_soft_freds_version.svg

This is not perfect either but maybe someone with more skill than myself 
could have a look at the issue and make the new logo look "right".


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Mikel Maron  wrote:

> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way
> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it,
> and we're trying to put together the right _approach_ to improve it.

Unfortunately a logo is a big deal because it effects lots of people.
It effects people making anything with the OSM "brand" on it. I have
lots of OSM related material (pamphlets, handouts, pens, etc.) with
the old logo.

I understand the issues this community has about announcements, in
both directions. On the one hand, you want to make announcements
because it's the right thing to do, but at the same time, this
community has a penchant for long debates which all too often turn
bitter.

But yes, a blog post would have in order on something this far reaching.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Jonas Krückel]

Am 30.04.2011 um 15:55 schrieb Frederik Ramm:

> Hi,
> 
>   I don't have issues with the process (I wasn't involved in selecting the 
> old logo so I don't mind others caring for that). But I think that something 
> is technically wrong with the new logo; I think if you were looking at a 
> magnifying glass from the angle chosen here, the end of the handle would not 
> be visible like it is here. It's hard to pinpoint/describe this exactly for 
> someone who is as untalented in drawing things as I am, but I've tried to 
> sketch what I think would be  more "correct" version here:
> 
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osm_logo_soft_freds_version.svg
> 
> This is not perfect either but maybe someone with more skill than myself 
> could have a look at the issue and make the new logo look "right".

I agree that the perspective of the handle doesn't seem right and you're 
version seems to be a lot better.
For me it looks like the glass is laying flat and the handle is sticking out a 
little bit in the original version. Your approach seems to be to make the 
handle also lie flat, another way would be to shift the glass to fit the 
current angle of the handle.

If anyone wants to compare the two different versions, here's the link for the 
original version.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/7/79/Public-images-osm_logo.svg

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Martijn van Exel]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
> that important things like changing the well established logo of the
> project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
> the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?
>
>
I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its
own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just
implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived
products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only
national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very
amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts
of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a
good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process -
I'm not in favor of that in this case at all.

-- 
Martijn van Exel
http://about.me/mvexel
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/4/30 Mikel Maron :
> From: Simon Poole 
>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web
>> Design Working Group)
> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way
> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it.


the logo is not an usability topic.


> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would
> be a good start.


Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like
Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent
him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some
still are old versions).

There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:

1.
(12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?
(12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our
multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief
(12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though

2.
"(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima
despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have
people work on design who... know how to design and build things"

It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is
there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if
there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a
hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design
group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,
it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and
show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print
material and maps(!)...

Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative
process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine
them, ...

Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the
same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more
for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front
page.

cheers,
Martin
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[1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo:
http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Jochen Topf]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  > wrote:
> 
> > I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
> > that important things like changing the well established logo of the
> > project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
> > the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?
> >
> >
> I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its
> own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just
> implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived
> products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only
> national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very
> amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts
> of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a
> good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process -
> I'm not in favor of that in this case at all.

Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they
have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping
their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen
the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am
glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a
strategy! Yeah!

And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It
symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM!

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

What are you all whining about ?
The new CT clearly transfers most of your rights
to OSMF, and this what happens if you transfer rights
to a self appointed  group of people that have joint
together to do what *they* think is best for OSM, and got
the power from the community.

This was the first step.

Regards,

Gert Gremmen



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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[SteveC]

You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the 
new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic 
discussion on it and nothing would happen. Any progress at all in any direction 
now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it 
very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. 
We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron :
>> From: Simon Poole 
>>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web
>>> Design Working Group)
>> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way
>> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it.
> 
> 
> the logo is not an usability topic.
> 
> 
>> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would
>> be a good start.
> 
> 
> Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like
> Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent
> him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some
> still are old versions).
> 
> There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:
> 
> 1.
> (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?
> (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our
> multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief
> (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though
> 
> 2.
> "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima
> despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have
> people work on design who... know how to design and build things"
> 
> It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is
> there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if
> there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a
> hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design
> group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,
> it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and
> show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print
> material and maps(!)...
> 
> Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative
> process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine
> them, ...
> 
> Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the
> same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more
> for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front
> page.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> __
> 
> [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo:
> http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny 
Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything.





From: Jochen Topf 
To: Martijn van Exel 
Cc: osm 
Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  > wrote:
> 
> > I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
> > that important things like changing the well established logo of the
> > project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
> > the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?
> >
> >
> I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its
> own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just
> implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived
> products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only
> national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very
> amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts
> of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a
> good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process -
> I'm not in favor of that in this case at all.

Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they
have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping
their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen
the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am
glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a
strategy! Yeah!

And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It
symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM!

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Renaud MICHEL]

On samedi 30 avril 2011 at 17:54, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert 
Gremmen wrote :
> What are you all whining about ?
> The new CT clearly transfers most of your rights
> to OSMF, and this what happens if you transfer rights
> to a self appointed  group of people that have joint
> together to do what they think is best for OSM, and got
> the power from the community.

Wow!

Even on a discussion about the logo someone manage to highjack the thread 
with FUD about the license change.

Amazing!

-- 
Renaud Michel

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[SteveC]

Mikel and SWG don't have to take all this, I did it so flame me Jochen.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:04, Mikel Maron  wrote:

> So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny 
> Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything.
> 
> From: Jochen Topf 
> To: Martijn van Exel 
> Cc: osm 
> Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
> 
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  > > wrote:
> > 
> > > I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
> > > that important things like changing the well established logo of the
> > > project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
> > > the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?
> > >
> > >
> > I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its
> > own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just
> > implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived
> > products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only
> > national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very
> > amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts
> > of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a
> > good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process -
> > I'm not in favor of that in this case at all.
> 
> Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they
> have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping
> their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen
> the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I 
> am
> glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a
> strategy! Yeah!
> 
> And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It
> symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM!
> 
> Jochen
> -- 
> Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Martijn,

Martijn van Exel wrote:
I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on 
its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' 


To be honest, if SWG started forming a "corporate identity subcommittee" 
I'd probably run away screaming. (They would provide local chapters with 
little brochures explaining how much space there must be between the 
logo and any text, and which Pantone colours exactly to use for the 
logo. Nothing else will do!) Next, we'll have to hire a web designer and 
an usability consultant, and a PR company craft press releases about how 
OSM is "reinventing location" and other bullshit bingo top hits.


To continue that on the technical side, any change we make would have to 
be announced one year in advance to that nobody's mission-critical 
application can fail. We would have to hire full-time technical staff 
and implement "frozen zones" to make sure that our systems are perfectly 
oiled at critical times, etc. etc. etc. - goodbye OSM Foundation, hello 
OSM Corporation.


I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm 
not saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that 
we're not yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through 
some sort of complicated three-level approval process.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/4/30 SteveC :
> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted 
> the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic 
> discussion on it and nothing would happen.


I remember a different process when the foundation got its logo, and
it did happen.


> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on 
> this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve 
> anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. 
> Any ideas appreciated.


It is not that people "don't like" the new logo, I would have expected
a process like:

0. Announce that you are going to change the logo in 4 (or 8) weeks.
1. publish a link to the logo proposal
2. get some comments
3. implement (eventually) some of the conclusions
4. you are satisfied or go to 1.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mike Dupont]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:54 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen  wrote:
> What are you all whining about ?
> The new CT clearly transfers most of your rights
> to OSMF, and this what happens if you transfer rights
> to a self appointed  group of people that have joint
> together to do what *they* think is best for OSM, and got
> the power from the community.
>
> This was the first step.

I have to agree with that, you have given up all your rights now, so
just accept it. I did not accept it and am not planning on it, But I
will continue to contribue to OSM as they allow me, without accepting
the contributors terms, by publishing my changes under CC-BY-SA for
all to use as they want.

I am working on mapping now, completely outside of any central osm
database using git

http://osmopenlayers.blogspot.com/2011/04/mapping-osm-without-central-database.html
http://osmopenlayers.blogspot.com/2011/04/restart-of-kosovo-in-osm-git.html

I dont need any central database, rendering can be done locally and shared.

feel free to join me, I am working on a new blog post on some other work.

Ideas are to make a tiny rails engine that you can use locally that
uses git or extend josm to use git for you.

mike

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

No Steve, you don't have to take this. Anyone trying to do something for this 
project shouldn't have to take abuse.

How about we stop useless flaming. Seriously, this is just self-destructive 
behavior.

How about if anyone in this community has something to say, they say it 
constructively, with respect, with understanding of what we've been through 
before.

I'm not saying we can't disagree, or make suggestions to each other. But stop 
wasting our energy with nastiness.





From: SteveC 
To: Mikel Maron 
Cc: Jochen Topf ; Martijn van Exel ; osm 

Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 11:12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki


Mikel and SWG don't have to take all this, I did it so flame me Jochen.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:04, Mikel Maron  wrote:


So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny 
Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything.
>
>
>
>

From: Jochen Topf 
>To: Martijn van Exel 
>Cc: osm 
>Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the  Wiki
>
>On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer > > wrote:
>> 
>> > I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange
>> > that important things like changing the well established logo of the
>> > project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of
>> > the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked?
>> >
>> >
>> I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its
>> own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just
>> implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived
>> products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only
>> national or  sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very
>> amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts
>> of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a
>> good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process -
>> I'm not in favor of that in this case at all.
>
>Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they
>have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping
>their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen
>the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am
>glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a
>strategy! Yeah!
>
>And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It
>symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM!
>
>Jochen
>-- 
>Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[SteveC]

Come on Martin. Look, yes we can always, always be better at communication. But 
if we had a process like that we might have got to actually one day putting a 
new logo up. In the process with all the flames and the people screaming no, 
and all that, the people actually doing then work would get demoralized, like 
they are right now.

You should take it as a good sign there isn't some huge process and that you 
are as involved as anyone. I think jockru also said he wanted a blog post? Well 
he has access to opengeodata as much as we all do! :-)

The process you outline is reasonable on a constructive list. This just isn't a 
constructive place a lot of the time.

Instead of taking 8 weeks to have a process, let's treat it as 8 weeks where 
anyone can help fix these theoretical and technical logo issues. It's right 
there, anyone can help. So who's going to do it?

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:17, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2011/4/30 SteveC :
>> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted 
>> the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a 
>> gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.
> 
> 
> I remember a different process when the foundation got its logo, and
> it did happen.
> 
> 
>> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on 
>> this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve 
>> anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. 
>> Any ideas appreciated.
> 
> 
> It is not that people "don't like" the new logo, I would have expected
> a process like:
> 
> 0. Announce that you are going to change the logo in 4 (or 8) weeks.
> 1. publish a link to the logo proposal
> 2. get some comments
> 3. implement (eventually) some of the conclusions
> 4. you are satisfied or go to 1.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Grant Slater]

On 30 April 2011 17:24, SteveC  wrote:
>
> Instead of taking 8 weeks to have a process, let's treat it as 8 weeks where 
> anyone can help fix these theoretical and technical logo issues. It's right 
> there, anyone can help. So who's going to do it?
>

I've updated the OSM logos on Wikipedia, meta data still needs some tweaking.

Frederik's version with the tweaked perspective of the handle looks a
bit better to me, although I haven't tested it in inkscape yet.

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/4/30 Frederik Ramm :
> I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not
> saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not
> yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of
> complicated three-level approval process.


I also had a side thought on this, and I am glad you described this so
well, so the logical next step this way would be to fix the first
issue (perspective) by exchanging it with your fix:
http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

I am almost sure that also the original creator would make some small
improvements if asked. The motivation to get into details is much
higher when it is not a simple draft but you know that the result will
be used millions of times in the web...

I also suggest to work on a low-res version and a b/w version.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Is there an SVG version or did I miss it?

On 4/30/2011 9:32 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2011/4/30 Frederik Ramm:

I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not
saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not
yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of
complicated three-level approval process.


I also had a side thought on this, and I am glad you described this so
well, so the logical next step this way would be to fix the first
issue (perspective) by exchanging it with your fix:
http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Simon Poole]

I just don't see what wanting to avoid flame wars on this list (which 
will happen anyway QED), has to do with informing the large majority of 
participants in OSM in advance of, not unimportant, changes and events.


Simon

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Grant Slater]

On 30 April 2011 18:21, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> I just don't see what wanting to avoid flame wars on this list (which will
> happen anyway QED), has to do with informing the large majority of
> participants in OSM in advance of, not unimportant, changes and events.
>

Hi Simon,

Do you think the new logo is an improvement over the old logo?

On your main point, I am sure there will be press on blogs OpenGeoData
etc and the weekly
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Updates

/ Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Grant Slater]

On 30 April 2011 17:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 2011/4/30 Frederik Ramm :
>> I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not
>> saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not
>> yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of
>> complicated three-level approval process.
>
>
> I also had a side thought on this, and I am glad you described this so
> well, so the logical next step this way would be to fix the first
> issue (perspective) by exchanging it with your fix:
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png
>

The wiki has now been updated to the "perspective fixed" version, the
www.osm.org will likely get fixed later today.

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Simon Poole]

I'm not going to answer that.

But I did go on record today on the one of German list with the remark, 
that FOSM does have a sole thing going for it, a better logo, but that 
was not really difficult. It has just become a tiny bit harder.


Simon

PS:  I don't think it is necessary to discuss every decision, for 
example a logo change,


Am 30.04.2011 19:31, schrieb Grant Slater:

On 30 April 2011 18:21, Simon Poole  wrote:

I just don't see what wanting to avoid flame wars on this list (which will
happen anyway QED), has to do with informing the large majority of
participants in OSM in advance of, not unimportant, changes and events.


Hi Simon,

Do you think the new logo is an improvement over the old logo?

On your main point, I am sure there will be press on blogs OpenGeoData
etc and the weekly
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Updates

/ Grant



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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

Grant Slater writes:
 > Do you think the new logo is an improvement over the old logo?

If I had only published this logo a month ago, we wouldn't be having
this argument now:

http://russnelson.com/temp/russ-osm-logo.gif

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
The first of every month|should be like April.
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Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Grant Slater]

On 30 April 2011 19:04, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Grant Slater writes:
>  > Do you think the new logo is an improvement over the old logo?
>
> If I had only published this logo a month ago, we wouldn't be having
> this argument now:
>
> http://russnelson.com/temp/russ-osm-logo.gif
>

While amusing, I don't think some of the OSM devs ( zere,
gravitystorm, harry-wood and smsm1) who were retrenched by Cloudmade
would appreciate that animated logo.

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Martijn van Exel]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Martijn,
>
>
> Martijn van Exel wrote:
>
>> I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on
>> its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity'
>>
>
> To be honest, if SWG started forming a "corporate identity subcommittee"
> I'd probably run away screaming. (They would provide local chapters with
> little brochures explaining how much space there must be between the logo
> and any text, and which Pantone colours exactly to use for the logo. Nothing
> else will do!) Next, we'll have to hire a web designer and an usability
> consultant, and a PR company craft press releases about how OSM is
> "reinventing location" and other bullshit bingo top hits.
>

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a proponent of any of that corporate identity
Scheiße, but the fact of the matter is that there are innumerable
publications using the now-defunct OSM logo and it's going to confuse people
if they see a different logo for what we would like to think of as one
entity. I'm as much a fan of leaving things to the community to sort out,
but some things should be coordinated somewhat. I believe that is what the
OSMF and the working groups are for.


> [..]
>


> I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not
> saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not
> yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of
> complicated three-level approval process.
>
>
I think one long hard look at taginfo is haphazardry enough for even most
people *in* the community ;)
-- 
Martijn van Exel
http://about.me/mvexel
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Kai Krueger]

Martijn van Exel-3 wrote:
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not a proponent of any of that corporate identity
> Scheiße, but the fact of the matter is that there are innumerable
> publications using the now-defunct OSM logo and it's going to confuse
> people
> if they see a different logo for what we would like to think of as one
> entity.
> 
Perhaps we shouldn't consider it defunct for now, but simply as another
variant of the logo.

There are already a number of different variants of the logo in use both by
OSMF itself, as well as by various entities building ontop of OSM, like the
OpenCylcleMap logo and the OpenSeaMap logo. They however all have a common
element, the magnifying glass with a map as a background, which is
sufficient to immediately identify them as somehow belonging together.

The new logo again uses this theme and is therefore still imho immediately
identifiable as belonging to the OSM "brand", so I'd hope that it isn't much
of an issue if various "marketing material" still use the older logo variant
for a (considerable) while.

At the same time, not doing it in a single coordinated step, allows us to
play around with the design for the next little while and iron out any
wrinkles like the perspective until the largest number of people are happy
with it. With it only being on online resources for the moment, it can be
again changed as quickly as it was yesterday, which allows the community to
see it in action and see what they think of it. If it then turns out, there
are significant disadvantages and it wasn't just a (understandable)
reluctance for change of something as potentially emotional as the logo,
then it should be easily possible to address that.

Once the design has stabilized, it will then naturally trickle out to all
the other uses of the logo.

If it were a more radical change, as a number of previous logo suggestions
have been in the past with no recognizability between the two, I would
totally agree that it would have had to be coordinated and discussed much
more and better than the current switch has been.


Kai--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Lester Caine]

SteveC wrote:

Instead of taking 8 weeks to have a process, let's treat it as 8 weeks where 
anyone can help fix these theoretical and technical logo issues. It's right 
there, anyone can help. So who's going to do it?

Steve


So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility vests 
which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which now needs to 
be redone. A LITTLE notification of such a major change would have been nice. I 
wonder how many local groups have only just committed to expenditure that is now 
out of date even before they receive the product? I do not even recall any 
discussion that that a change was being planned?


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Lester Caine wrote:
So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility 
vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which 
now needs to be redone. A LITTLE notification of such a major change 
would have been nice. 


I propose this:

From now on, we change our logo twice a year - on 1st May and 1st 
November. That way, nobody can ever claim not to have been notified.


(I also propose that we use funny alliterative animal names for each 
release.)


I wonder how many local groups have only just 
committed to expenditure that is now out of date even before they 
receive the product? 


Calm down. Our merchanidse is not "out of date" just because the logo 
has been touched up.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Richard Fairhurst]

Jochen Topf wrote:
> Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks 
> they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! 
> After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of 
> OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important 
> strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a 
> bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah!

Leave the humour to Fake SteveC, Jochen, he does it so much better than you.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[john]

I assume that the "twice a year change" and the "funny, alliterative animal 
names" are references to Ubuntu Linux.  Note that, while each release of Ubuntu 
has its own name, the Ubuntu logo has remained unchanged for years.  I agree 
that the change to a new OSM logo should have been discussed, or at least 
announced, well in advance, not done as a surprise to everyone except whatever 
committee made the change.

---Original Email-------
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
>From  :mailto:frede...@remote.org
Date  :Sat Apr 30 16:27:19 America/Chicago 2011


Hi,

Lester Caine wrote:
> So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility 
> vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which 
> now needs to be redone. A LITTLE notification of such a major change 
> would have been nice. 

I propose this:

 From now on, we change our logo twice a year - on 1st May and 1st 
November. That way, nobody can ever claim not to have been notified.

(I also propose that we use funny alliterative animal names for each 
release.)

> I wonder how many local groups have only just 
> committed to expenditure that is now out of date even before they 
> receive the product? 

Calm down. Our merchanidse is not "out of date" just because the logo 
has been touched up.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Lester Caine]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Calm down. Our merchanidse is not "out of date" just because the logo
has been touched up.
So http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Hi_Vis_Back.jpg is not going to 
be changed? At least it does say who we are working for, while the new logo is 
just a fussy picture which says nothing ...
Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of those 
supplying it?


--
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-
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Pierre-Alain Dorange]

Lester Caine  wrote:

> > Calm down. Our merchanidse is not "out of date" just because the logo
> > has been touched up.
> So http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Hi_Vis_Back.jpg is not
> going to be changed? At least it does say who we are working for, while
> the new logo is just a fussy picture which says nothing ...

On the jacket is was not the logo.
It was an alternative image, they were allready other alternative
image/mark/logo and their would be more in the future.
OSM is not a monolithe.

Of course, it would have been nice the subject was announced weeks
before change occurs (for all reason you invoke). But that's not a big
deal, nothing would really be obsolete or out of date.
The new logo is refreshing the old one.

> Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of
> those supplying it?

...

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : 


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Lester Caine wrote:
So http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Hi_Vis_Back.jpg is not 
going to be changed? 


That vest uses a logo that differs much *more* from the old web page 
logo that the newly installed logo on the web page does.


So if your reasoning is that what is on the web page is somehow the 
official logo and anything else is "obsolete", then these vests must 
have been obsolete since the first print run.


At least it does say who we are working for, while 
the new logo is just a fussy picture which says nothing ...


... and in that it doesn't differ one iota from the old logo on the web 
page, in case you have seen it.


If you have somehow got the idea that it has been decreed that anyone 
using the old, wide logo seen on the vest must now switch to the new, 
quadratic logo seen on the web page - that idea is wrong.


Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves 
of those supplying it?


I have no idea but if it were my stock, I'd probably re-print the old 
logo without a second thought.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Ilya Zverev]

Since this mailing list is about the new logo now, I'd like to point out
some things concerning it that got "broken".

First of all, wiki logo was a bit different from osm.org: it had a little
"W" in the corner.

The new logo's contrast is too low, so the favicon is not recognizable at a
glance. And since it is not line-art now, there's an issue with
transparency. Could anyone provide a good transparent gif of it? Also, I
doubt it will look good on a complex background (because of absence of a
thick border) but I did not test it yet.

I guess, the old logo should remain for low zooms (favicons, for example).
I don't see a problem with using both: a magnifier, a map and binary code
are present in all of them, so the "corporate identity" has not been
changed at all. We can polish both of them, and encourage people to do
their versions based on the core elements.

Changing of the logo was a good move, because it showed us that osm.org
page is not constant. For a long time many suggestions to change anything
on it were rejected with "do it yourself" line (and good designers are
seldom good programmers), and even when something was done (e.g. OSB on
dev.osm.org), it was shelved and forgotten. I hope this improvement will
make other, bigger ones to happen.


IZ

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Lester Caine]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves
of those supplying it?


I have no idea but if it were my stock, I'd probably re-print the old
logo without a second thought.


And just take the hit on the wasted costs out of their own pocket?
The point I am trying to make is did anybody changing the logo even consider the 
other areas that money would have been spent? I see pictures of large banners in 
addition to the vests which no longer match the current style of the website!


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Lester Caine wrote:

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves
of those supplying it?


I have no idea but if it were my stock, I'd probably re-print the old
logo without a second thought.


And just take the hit on the wasted costs out of their own pocket?


When I said "re-print the old logo", I meant "continue to use the old logo".

The point I am trying to make is did anybody changing the logo even 
consider the other areas that money would have been spent? I see 
pictures of large banners in addition to the vests which no longer match 
the current style of the website!


I don't think the change is big enough to make these banners and vests 
and so on unusable. (It is not unlikely that the new, softer logo would 
not print so well on many materials anyway.)


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Toby Murray]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:
> I see pictures of large banners in addition to the vests which no longer
> match the current style of the website!

And I see absolutely no problem with this. The new logo is not at all
substantially different from the old one. It is a stylistic tweak, not
a redesign. I would happily still buy a tshirt or vest or whatever
with the "old" log on it. In fact, as Ilya pointed out, the new one
has a little lower contrast. While it looks better on the website
(IMO) I might still prefer the old logo on shirts and such. I see
*absolutely* no problem in continuing to use both.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Robert Naylor]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 23:43:09 +0100, Frederik Ramm   
wrote:


The point I am trying to make is did anybody changing the logo even  
consider the other areas that money would have been spent? I see  
pictures of large banners in addition to the vests which no longer match  
the current style of the website!
 I don't think the change is big enough to make these banners and vests  
and so on unusable. (It is not unlikely that the new, softer logo would  
not print so well on many materials anyway.)


Quick animated gif of the change:   
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif


Its not that much of a change - its still very much the OSM logo, as is  
the numerous other version currently in use.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[David Murn]

On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote:
> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had
> posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have
> been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.

What a load of bollocks.  Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or
strategy after feedback from this list?  The various committees do what
they please when they please, that wont change.  It appears that the
announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and while a small
part has been about the logo change, a big part of the discussion is the
way that we as a community are treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have
the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then
those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the
efforts of the community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs
to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major
decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the
minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause
a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of
their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.

> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people
> on this list don't like it.

So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like to keep
pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries) doesnt like
seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+ people) because
5-10 might dislike their idea?  Seriously, where did we find this
handful of people who cant handle a couple of people disliking their
ideas?  Apparently watching this discussion.

>From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the feedback to the logo
itself was mostly positive, the displeasure has been with the process
used to change things.  Sadly this is pretty much on-par with what we're
starting to expect from those in power lately.

>  That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without
>  treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas
>  appreciated.

My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the public they
serve, rather than a bunch of noise.  Exactly how strong does OSMF think
the project and data would be, if everyone who had an opinion (who wasnt
a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned?

David

> On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> > 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron :
> >> From: Simon Poole 
> >>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web
> >>> Design Working Group)
> >> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary 
> >> way
> >> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it.
> > 
> > 
> > the logo is not an usability topic.
> > 
> > 
> >> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would
> >> be a good start.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like
> > Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent
> > him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some
> > still are old versions).
> > 
> > There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:
> > 
> > 1.
> > (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?
> > (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our
> > multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief
> > (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though
> > 
> > 2.
> > "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima
> > despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have
> > people work on design who... know how to design and build things"
> > 
> > It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is
> > there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if
> > there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a
> > hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design
> > group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,
> > it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and
> > show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print
> > material and maps(!)...
> > 
> > Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative
> > process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine
> > them, ...
> > 
> > Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the
> > same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more
> > for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front
> > page.
> > 
> > cheers,
> > Martin
> > __
> > 
> > [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo:
> > http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8
> > 
> > ___
> > talk mailing l

Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

Lester Caine writes:
 > So what is being done for those of us who invested in high
 > visibility vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid
 > for printing which now needs to be redone.

Mellow out, Lester. Conrail hasn't existed in the US since 1999, and
there are still locomotives that say Conrail on them. The New York
Central hasn't existed since 1968 and there are still bridges that say
New York Central on them. The D&H has no locomotives or rolling stock,
and yet there are still bridges that say D&H on the side.

Brand names don't become obsolete until they have been forgotten. Have
you or anybody else forgotten the old OSM logo? Would you fail to
recognize it given familiarity with the new one?

Mellow, folks, mellow. Changing the logo isn't going to kill
OSM. Changing the license, on the other hand ...

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Shaggy dog story, the whole thing. And you knew it.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

David Murn writes:
 > On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote:
 > > You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had
 > > posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have
 > > been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.
 > 
 > What a load of bollocks.  Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or
 > strategy after feedback from this list?  The various committees do what
 > they please when they please, that wont change.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you
ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed? I was on the Open
Source Initiative board until just recently. I had gotten SO TIRED of
people who complained that we weren't "open" enough or "transparent"
enough. Had any of those people EVER come to us and asked if they
could help us with anything? N.

The future belongs to those who show up, not those who whinge about
work that has been done.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[David Murn]

On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 20:30 -0400, Russ Nelson wrote:

> Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you
> ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed?

For the past 2 years Ive been a secretary of a national non-profit
organisation in my country.  If we had made decisions and communicate
N.
> d with the group in the way OSMF has done, I can only imagine the
outrage (it would be similar to the feelings of many here currently).
If I wrote minutes as sparsely and incomplete as the various committees
and groups write their minutes, I imagine the 2nd meeting it happened
at, Id be asked if I needed help and would basically not have been
allowed to get away with sloppy work again.

> I had gotten SO TIRED of people who complained that we weren't "open"
> enough or "transparent" enough. Had any of those people EVER come to
> us and asked if they could help us with anything?

What do you think would have happened if OSI decided to do something
like change their policies or their logo, with no discussion or
announcement until someone noticed and asked what happened?

> The future belongs to those who show up, not those who whinge about
> work that has been done.

Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting
isnt as easy as 'just showing up'.  Infact, its not even really possible
to be invovled by reading the minutes or the meeting notes.  Those of us
who wish to be involved, join public discussions and forums.  Apparently
those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer
interested in public discussions and forums.  Exactly how was anyone to
have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo, when the first that
99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asks HERE after
its already been decided and changed.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[john whelan]

Just a comment, I suspect the discussion we are having about the changes to
the logo and license etc are a symptom of something much deeper.  I do get
the feeling that there is a disconnect between what is being perceived and
what the intentions are.  There seems to be a perception floating in the air
that there is no need to discuss implications and that what we need is
strong decision makers.  This is not a corporation where you can hire and
fire people at will or threaten them with no pay raises.  OSM needs to have
mappers on side.  It has grown very quickly these maybe just growth pains.

It could be that those at the top are finding life stressful, certain
members have recently changed their employment which can in itself be a
stressful time.

I'm not certain what the solution is I just hope it isn't complete
self-destruct for OSM.

Do we have any ways to relieve the pressure? I'm not even sure if we elect
directors for a two year term or use other formal methods which have been
used in other organizations.

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

Thanks for your reply. I've fixed your speling and the grammar. and
you're punctuation and you have several run-on sentences with tense
problems that I am fixed.
-russ

David Murn writes:
 > On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 20:30 -0400, Russ Nelson wrote:
 > 
 > > Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you
 > > ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed?
 > 
 > For the past 2 years I've been a secretary of a national non-profit
 > organisation in my country.  If we had made decisions and
 > communicated with the group in the way OSMF has done, I can only
 > imagine the outrage (it would be similar to the feelings of many
 > here currently).  If I wrote minutes as sparsely and incompletely
 > as the various committees and groups wrote their minutes, I'd be
 > asked if I needed help. I imagine by the 2nd meeting I would
 > not be allowed to get away with such sloppy work again.
 > 
 > > I had gotten SO TIRED of people who complained that we weren't "open"
 > > enough or "transparent" enough. Had any of those people EVER come to
 > > us and asked if they could help us with anything?
 > 
 > What do you think would have happened if OSI decided to do
 > something like change their policies or their logo?  No discussion,
 > nor any announcement until someone noticed and asked what happened.
 > 
 > > The future belongs to those who show up, not those who whinge about
 > > work that has been done.
 > 
 > Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc)
 > meeting isn't as easy as 'just showing up'.  In fact, it's not
 > possible to be involved by reading the minutes or the meeting
 > notes.  Those of us who wish to be involved join public discussions
 > and forums.  Apparently those who are actually in the positions of
 > power are no longer interested in public discussions and forums.
 > Exactly how was anyone to have 'shown up' to discussions about a
 > new logo? The first that 99.9% of us became aware of the change was
 > when someone asked HERE. This was after it had already been decided
 > and changed.
 > 
 > David
 > 

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Passive-aggressive, check. Yeah, I'm a BOFH.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 01 May 2011 10:52:52 +1000
David Murn  wrote:

> > Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have
> > you ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed?  
> 
> For the past 2 years Ive been a secretary of a national non-profit
> organisation in my country.

I think that many have been in director positions in non-profit
organisations, and are aware of the matters that David has mentioned.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
-Mikel






From: David Murn 
To: SteveC 
Cc: "talk@openstreetmap.org" 
Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 6:15:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote:
> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had
> posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have
> been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.

What a load of bollocks.  Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or
strategy after feedback from this list?  The various committees do what
they please when they please, that wont change.  It appears that the
announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and while a small
part has been about the logo change, a big part of the discussion is the
way that we as a community are treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have
the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then
those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the
efforts of the community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs
to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major
decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the
minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause
a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of
their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.

> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people
> on this list don't like it.

So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like to keep
pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries) doesnt like
seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+ people) because
5-10 might dislike their idea?  Seriously, where did we find this
handful of people who cant handle a couple of people disliking their
ideas?  Apparently watching this discussion.

>From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the feedback to the logo
itself was mostly positive, the displeasure has been with the process
used to change things.  Sadly this is pretty much on-par with what we're
starting to expect from those in power lately.

>  That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without
>  treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas
>  appreciated.

My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the public they
serve, rather than a bunch of noise.  Exactly how strong does OSMF think
the project and data would be, if everyone who had an opinion (who wasnt
a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned?

David

> On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> > 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron :
> >> From: Simon Poole 
> >>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web
> >>> Design Working Group)
> >> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary 
way
> >> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it.
> > 
> > 
> > the logo is not an usability topic.
> > 
> > 
> >> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would
> >> be a good start.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like
> > Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent
> > him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some
> > still are old versions).
> > 
> > There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:
> > 
> > 1.
> > (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?
> > (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our
> > multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief
> > (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though
> > 
> > 2.
> > "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima
> > despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have
> > people work on design who... know how to design and build things"
> > 
> > It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is
> > there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if
> > there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a
> > hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design
> > group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,
> > it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and
> > show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print
> > material and maps(!)...
> > 
> > Usually changing the logo is not a one

Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Agreed.

On 4/30/2011 7:31 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:

David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
-Mikel



*From:* David Murn 
*To:* SteveC 
*Cc:* "talk@openstreetmap.org" 
*Sent:* Sat, April 30, 2011 6:15:08 PM
*Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote:
> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had
> posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have
> been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.

What a load of bollocks.  Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or
strategy after feedback from this list?  The various committees do what
they please when they please, that wont change.  It appears that the
announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and while a small
part has been about the logo change, a big part of the discussion is the
way that we as a community are treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have
the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then
those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the
efforts of the community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs
to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major
decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the
minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause
a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of
their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.

> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people
> on this list don't like it.

So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like to keep
pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries) doesnt like
seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+ people) because
5-10 might dislike their idea?  Seriously, where did we find this
handful of people who cant handle a couple of people disliking their
ideas?  Apparently watching this discussion.

>From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the feedback to the logo
itself was mostly positive, the displeasure has been with the process
used to change things.  Sadly this is pretty much on-par with what we're
starting to expect from those in power lately.

>  That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without
>  treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas
>  appreciated.

My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the public they
serve, rather than a bunch of noise.  Exactly how strong does OSMF think
the project and data would be, if everyone who had an opinion (who wasnt
a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned?

David

> On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

>
> > 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron <mailto:mikel_ma...@yahoo.com>>:

> >> From: Simon Poole mailto:si...@poole.ch>>
> >>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the 
WDWG (Web

> >>> Design Working Group)
> >> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the 
primary way
> >> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues 
with it.

> >
> >
> > the logo is not an usability topic.
> >
> >
> >> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing 
anything would

> >> be a good start.
> >
> >
> > Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like
> > Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent
> > him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some
> > still are old versions).
> >
> > There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:
> >
> > 1.
> > (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?
> > (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our
> > multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief
> > (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures 
now though

> >
> > 2.
> > "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima
> > despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have
> > people work on design who... know how to design and build things"
> >
> > It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is
> > there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if
> > there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a
> > hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design
> > group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,
> > it affects hundreds of sites (also of other pe

Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
Mikel Maron  wrote:

> David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
> -Mikel

You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it.
You actually prove the point.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

Elizabeth Dodd writes:
 > On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
 > Mikel Maron  wrote:
 > 
 > > David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
 > > -Mikel
 > 
 > You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it.
 > You actually prove the point.

Actually, no. David completely shined on the point of my email, which
is why David got a null reply from me. I asked if he had ever tried to
join one of the OSMF committies, and his reply was "". So fine, my
reply was equally devoid of content. And, really really snarky. Snark,
snark, snark. Today is snark day. Tomorrow will be boojum day.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

This has not been constructive in the slightest. Inflammatory and untrue. I 
don't have time for this. Most of us don't. You're making a mockery of the hard 
work that's gone into this project.
Stop. Just stop.






From: Elizabeth Dodd 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 9:51:07 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
Mikel Maron  wrote:

> David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
> -Mikel

You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it.
You actually prove the point.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:33:42 -0700 (PDT)
Mikel Maron  wrote:

> This has not been constructive in the slightest. Inflammatory and
> untrue. I don't have time for this. Most of us don't. You're making a
> mockery of the hard work that's gone into this project.
> Stop. Just stop.
> 
> 

let me rewrite the piece from David Murn

 a big part of the discussion is the
way that we as a community are treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have
the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then
those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the
efforts of the community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs
to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major
decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the
minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause
a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of
their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.


This is constructive. It is hard hitting and direct. Sometimes medicine
is bitter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Andreas Perstinger]

On 2011-05-01 00:48, Robert Naylor wrote:

Quick animated gif of the change:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif

Its not that much of a change - its still very much the OSM logo, as
is the numerous other version currently in use.


+1.

A quick Google search shows some examples of logo changes from well know
companies/organizations which didn't fail afterwards.

I would consider the current change more like an bigger edit on the map
or on the wiki. Much ado about nothing :-)

NFL: http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/08/30/shield3-large.jpg
Pepsi: http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/pepsilogochange.gif
Days Inn:
http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/days_inn_logo_change_1.gif
Google: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4583055527_3849f4d8f0.jpg
Twitter:
http://www.brandflakesforbreakfast.com/uploaded_images/twitter-logo-change-709357.jpg

Bye, Andreas

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Andreas Perstinger]

On 2011-05-01 05:54, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

let me rewrite the piece from David Murn

a big part of the discussion is the way that we as a community are
treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have the power to do what they
want without consulting the community, then those handful of mappers
 should be the ones mapping and not be using the efforts of the
community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs to comprehend
what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major decisions

   ^^^

behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the minutes
and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause a big
discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of their
change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.


Is the current logo change a major decision for you?

See also Robert's comparison:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif).

Bye, Andreas

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Very nice. My favorite is the twitter one.

On 4/30/2011 9:41 PM, Andreas Perstinger wrote:

On 2011-05-01 00:48, Robert Naylor wrote:

Quick animated gif of the change:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif

Its not that much of a change - its still very much the OSM logo, as
is the numerous other version currently in use.


+1.

A quick Google search shows some examples of logo changes from well know
companies/organizations which didn't fail afterwards.

I would consider the current change more like an bigger edit on the map
or on the wiki. Much ado about nothing :-)

NFL: http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/08/30/shield3-large.jpg
Pepsi: http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/pepsilogochange.gif
Days Inn:
http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/days_inn_logo_change_1.gif
Google: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4583055527_3849f4d8f0.jpg
Twitter:
http://www.brandflakesforbreakfast.com/uploaded_images/twitter-logo-change-709357.jpg 



Bye, Andreas

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Lester Caine]

Andreas Perstinger wrote:

Is the current logo change a major decision for you?

See also Robert's comparison:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif).


Actually it just highlights all of the problems nicely. Having been required to 
comply with the needs of the visually impaired on a number of projects, the 
importance of contrast at a lower resolution IS quite critical! AT LEAST change 
the icon views back to the old style if it does not matter that we can all use 
the older style anyway. But personally I find the current image simply a damp 
squib in the corner ... perhaps because I HAVE to focus on it better to see any 
detail at all ... even with my glasses on. A logo should be 'crisp' and scale 
nicely from Icon through to larger image, and the loss of the distinctive 
outline IS the major problem.


--
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Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Jochen Topf]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 02:32:34PM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Jochen Topf wrote:
> > Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks 
> > they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! 
> > After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of 
> > OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important 
> > strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a 
> > bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah!
> 
> Leave the humour to Fake SteveC, Jochen, he does it so much better than you.

Yes, he is much better. But I am still learning. How can we get better if we
don't try? Thats the OSM way. We try something new, sometimes we fail,
sometimes we don't. But we always learn in the process.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Simon Ward]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 09:40:39PM +, j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

> I assume that the "twice a year change" and the "funny, alliterative
> animal names" are references to Ubuntu Linux.  Note that, while each
> release of Ubuntu has its own name, the Ubuntu logo has remained
> unchanged for years.

The Ubuntu logo changed last year, I believe.

Old: “Circle of friends” is multi‐coloured, typeface is rounded.

http://www.lions-wing.net/lessons/ubuntu3/UbuntuLogo.png

New: “Circle of friends” is encased in a circle, one colour, typeface is
pointy (technical term).

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand#Logos
http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/

Simon
-- 
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

David Murn wrote:

Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting
isnt as easy as 'just showing up'.  Infact, its not even really possible
to be invovled by reading the minutes or the meeting notes.  Those of us
who wish to be involved, join public discussions and forums.  Apparently
those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer
interested in public discussions and forums.  Exactly how was anyone to
have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo, when the first that
99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asks HERE after
its already been decided and changed.


Thing is, we have a ton of people who like to have a say, but that's all 
you ever get from them - words. They demand to be informed, so that they 
can then pick and choose where they want to be "involved", where "being 
involved" means that they will say things like "I think this should be 
done differently".


This, however, is not how things work in OSM. There is hardly any part 
of OSM that is not open for you to participate; OSMF board may be an 
exception because you would actually have to persuade people to vote for 
you before, but any working group will most certainly accept anyone who 
offers to do a share of the work.


What you cannot do is join a working group, do not participate in the 
work, but expect to have a say. You can of course still say things like 
"I think this should be done differently", and you may even get heard, 
but if you instead say "I have made this plan and worked out the 
following and is everyone ok with me implementing that next week?" then 
you will have 10 times the weight of someone saying "this should be done 
 differently". Or 100 times.


This is something that I had to learn, and still have to learn, as well. 
 Still, I am tempted very often to say my opinion about something where 
I am not capable or not willing to help, and I frequently do - but at 
least I have learned not to complain if those who do the work choose to 
ignore me. OSM is not a democracy in which everyone has equal say with 
no questions asked. In OSM you have to earn your say.


Strategic working group can hardly be said to be doing things "behind 
closed doors", in fact their meeting notes were usually up online HOURS 
after a meeting was over, and meetings were always announced in advance 
and held on an open IRC channel.


From time to time there may be really important things where one would 
like to have a broad input from people in the project. (I don't consider 
the logo change to be one of them.) And I can see that many of those who 
do the most work in this project are meanwhile critical of doing 
something like a post to talk becasue it will attract so many people who 
 don't help to do the work but actually pull the cart in another direction.


In a sane environment you would do it anyway, because any sane person 
must take into account the possibility of being wrong - so that 
sometimes people pulling the cart in another direction might help to 
prevent a mistake being made. Also, in a sane environemnt, for any one 
person who is disruptive you would attract five others, giving you a 
positive net contribution.


But I - very reluctantly - start to agree with those who say that while 
it would be desirable to involve the community-at-large, the mechanisms 
we currently have seem to somehow not target the community but a handful 
of malcontents whom you cannot please whatever you do. This is an 
unfortunate dynamic, and we should look to other large communities to 
find out how they deal with it.


Certainly, after this thread, anyone *not* wanting to involve the 
community-at-large will have one more reason.


It would be great if we could somehow reboot and arrive at something 
sane again. This should not be an "us against them" situation on any side.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> It would be great if we could somehow reboot and arrive at 
> something sane again.

Superb posting. +1 to all of that.

cheers
Richard

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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/5/1 Ilya Zverev :
> I guess, the old logo should remain for low zooms (favicons, for example).


I agree and would go even further: the new "logo" is actually a clip
art, nicer to have it on the website, but not really suitable as a
"logo". The old one instead is more logo-like (even if it too is quite
complex, more complex then logos usually are).



> I don't see a problem with using both: a magnifier, a map and binary code
> are present in all of them,


+1


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[pec...@gmail.com]

If you wanna critize SWG/OSMF *again*, please, create new thread but
don't spam this one. I know there is lot of desire to express pain how
communication doesn't work between some very loud minority and OSMF,
but please, do it properly.

About logo - new version looks excellent in high resolution, thanks; I
suggest that next step would be creating icons with lesser details for
each level (32x32, 16x16, etc.) so everyone can replace their art
(favicons, applications, etc.) accordingly. Also I hope that someone
will move futher and create whole "coorporate identity" for letters,
local chapters, etc. so anyone who wish to communicate as OSM mapper
can do so without reinventing a wheel. We need a little bit more
consistency in OSM image (and I don't mean new version of logo here).

About merchandise - I highly doubt that it will change anything. I
mean - logo haven't changed that much, safety wests still says fully
what it is so they are still useful. However, I agree, that blog post
with explaining about new logo and other plans of "touching up" OSM
identity would have been nice before actual change. I mean, decisions
were already made, so why not just inform people more about it? Yes,
there would be regular complaining, as usual, but at least it would be
done. I really hope that SWG/OSMF people do understand that most of us
don't see them as enemies and want to communicate about their
decisions. Not everyone wants to flame, but I'm quite sure that most
of us just want to be kept in the loop.

Cheers and have a good mapping,
Peter
Latvia OSM community

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Russ Nelson]

Elizabeth Dodd writes:
 > ... you make major decisions behind closed doors ...

Have you knocked on the door and asked to be let in?

Nobody who is whinging has answered that question. Obviously, because
they haven't. Easier to whinge than actually do work.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

+1

Regards,

 Gert Gremmen



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Elizabeth Dodd [mailto:ed...@billiau.net] 
Verzonden: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:51 AM
Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
Mikel Maron  wrote:

> David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
> -Mikel

You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it.
You actually prove the point.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

thank you Frederik

 == Mikel Maron ==
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron





From: Frederik Ramm 
To: David Murn 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 5:21:53 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

Hi,

David Murn wrote:
> Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting
> isnt as easy as 'just showing up'.  Infact, its not even really possible
> to be invovled by reading the minutes or the meeting notes.  Those of us
> who wish to be involved, join public discussions and forums.  Apparently
> those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer
> interested in public discussions and forums.  Exactly how was anyone to
> have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo, when the first that
> 99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asks HERE after
> its already been decided and changed.

Thing is, we have a ton of people who like to have a say, but that's all you 
ever get from them - words. They demand to be informed, so that they can then 
pick and choose where they want to be "involved", where "being involved" means 
that they will say things like "I think this should be done differently".

This, however, is not how things work in OSM. There is hardly any part of OSM 
that is not open for you to participate; OSMF board may be an exception because 
you would actually have to persuade people to vote for you before, but any 
working group will most certainly accept anyone who offers to do a share of the 
work.

What you cannot do is join a working group, do not participate in the work, but 
expect to have a say. You can of course still say things like "I think this 
should be done differently", and you may even get heard, but if you instead say 
"I have made this plan and worked out the following and is everyone ok with me 
implementing that next week?" then you will have 10 times the weight of someone 
saying "this should be done  differently". Or 100 times.

This is something that I had to learn, and still have to learn, as well.  
Still, 
I am tempted very often to say my opinion about something where I am not 
capable 
or not willing to help, and I frequently do - but at least I have learned not 
to 
complain if those who do the work choose to ignore me. OSM is not a democracy 
in 
which everyone has equal say with no questions asked. In OSM you have to earn 
your say.

Strategic working group can hardly be said to be doing things "behind closed 
doors", in fact their meeting notes were usually up online HOURS after a 
meeting 
was over, and meetings were always announced in advance and held on an open IRC 
channel.

From time to time there may be really important things where one would like to 
have a broad input from people in the project. (I don't consider the logo 
change 
to be one of them.) And I can see that many of those who do the most work in 
this project are meanwhile critical of doing something like a post to talk 
becasue it will attract so many people who  don't help to do the work but 
actually pull the cart in another direction.

In a sane environment you would do it anyway, because any sane person must take 
into account the possibility of being wrong - so that sometimes people pulling 
the cart in another direction might help to prevent a mistake being made. Also, 
in a sane environemnt, for any one person who is disruptive you would attract 
five others, giving you a positive net contribution.

But I - very reluctantly - start to agree with those who say that while it 
would 
be desirable to involve the community-at-large, the mechanisms we currently 
have 
seem to somehow not target the community but a handful of malcontents whom you 
cannot please whatever you do. This is an unfortunate dynamic, and we should 
look to other large communities to find out how they deal with it.

Certainly, after this thread, anyone *not* wanting to involve the 
community-at-large will have one more reason.

It would be great if we could somehow reboot and arrive at something sane 
again. 
This should not be an "us against them" situation on any side.

Bye
Frederik

-- Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Ed Avis]

Frederick, I think you are right, and we need to find a sane way of doing things
as you put it.  In this case, it would have worked well to put a message on this
mailing list saying that the strategic working group exists, they are charged
with looking after the OSM logo among other things, and they plan to discuss it
at a certain time on a certain day.  So anyone who has views could express them
at the meeting or perhaps before.  Finally, if it is the working group that is
ultimately going to decide, that needs to be made clear at the start, so that
those who disagree with this way of working can talk about it then, rather than
after the decision has been made and people are already committed to their
positions.  (In other words separate the issue itself from the meta-issue of who
gets to rule on it.)

It might make a bit of noise on this list if everything that needs to be
discussed gets mentioned here first, but it would be paid back a hundredfold in
cutting down the acrimony afterwards.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Nic Roets]

Elizabeth,

I don't see David's comments as constructive. Terms like "consulting
the community" is quite vague and Steve has said that many of his
prior efforts to consult the community end in flame wars.

Now let me give it a try: I think the OSMF should make (more) use of
polling. Not for everything. But once or twice a year would be a nice
way to involve the community.

Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> There is hardly any part of OSM that is not open for you to participate;

Note that open IRC is the Internet equivalent to the town hall
meetings. In some instances they work well. But it is remarkably easy
for one grouping to impose their will on the community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_hall_meeting

OSMville is already the size of a small city and many of us do not
have English as a first language. Town hall meetings cannot be the
only way to involve the community.

Regards,
Nic

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:33:42 -0700 (PDT)
> Mikel Maron  wrote:
>
>> This has not been constructive in the slightest. Inflammatory and
>> untrue. I don't have time for this. Most of us don't. You're making a
>> mockery of the hard work that's gone into this project.
>> Stop. Just stop.
>>
>>
>
> let me rewrite the piece from David Murn
>
>  a big part of the discussion is the
> way that we as a community are treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have
> the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then
> those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the
> efforts of the community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs
> to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major
> decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the
> minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause
> a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of
> their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.
>
>
> This is constructive. It is hard hitting and direct. Sometimes medicine
> is bitter.
>
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Dave F.]

On 01/05/2011 20:50, Nic Roets wrote:

Note that open IRC is the Internet equivalent to the town hall
meetings.


No, it's not. Those occur in the time zone of the those involved.

IRC meetings, on the other hand, occur outside of many OSM users 
waking/working day.


This is another reason for the descenting voices to feel it's "behind 
closed doors".


Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Andrew Gregory]

On 2 May 2011 09:03, Dave F.  wrote:

> On 01/05/2011 20:50, Nic Roets wrote:
>
>> Note that open IRC is the Internet equivalent to the town hall
>> meetings.
>>
>
> No, it's not. Those occur in the time zone of the those involved.
>
> IRC meetings, on the other hand, occur outside of many OSM users
> waking/working day.
>
> This is another reason for the descenting voices to feel it's "behind
> closed doors".
>


I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was
reading.

In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or
whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with
it! Only tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists could possible consider it was
behind closed doors. Not that I've looked, but I'd bet anything there's an
open record of the entire IRC conversation archived somewhere accessible.
Sheesh.

-- 
Andrew
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Dave F.]

On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote:


I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I 
was reading.


In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an 
IRC (or whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for 
*someone*. Deal with it!


No. Don't use IRC!!!

Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of 
*everything* that's said & allows *all* to contribute at *all* times.


It's really simple. Even enough for you to deal with it.

Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Thomas Davie]

On 2 May 2011, at 11:18, Dave F. wrote:

> On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote:
>> 
>> I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was 
>> reading.
>> 
>> In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or 
>> whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with it!
> 
> No. Don't use IRC!!!
> 
> Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of *everything* 
> that's said & allows *all* to contribute at *all* times.
> 
> It's really simple. Even enough for you to deal with it.

But causes discussions that could be had in 10 minutes to get spread out over 
10 weeks ;)

Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 05/02/11 12:22, Thomas Davie wrote:

Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of
*everything* that's said&  allows *all* to contribute at *all*
times.


But causes discussions that could be had in 10 minutes to get spread
out over 10 weeks ;)


Dave is right about the advantages of asynchronous discussion; I usually 
prefer that as well. But things being dragged out endlessly really is a 
serious disadvantage, and not acceptable in many cases.


In an IRC meeting you will usually have a small number of people and all 
of them are (or are at least expected to be) "there", i.e. they will 
read and participate, and you can get a quick idea of what the majority 
thinks.


On IRC if someone comes up with a stupid idea, someone can say soemthing 
like "motion to ignore Fred's stupid idea and get on with our agenda", 
and then everyone will say aye and Fred is expected to accept that. That 
kind of discipline is necessary if you want to make decisions 
efficiently and not waste everyone's time - precious time, I might add, 
since for many the weekly hour on SWG IRC is not the only recurring 
meeting they attend.


On a mailing list, and certainly not on this mailing list, you do not 
have that discipline. Someone comes up with a stupid idea, is told by a 
bunch of others that his idea is stupid, but nonetheless continues with 
posting after posting.


It's ok to have a forum where people can air their views ad infinitum, 
but it is not suitable for making decisions. Maybe it is possible to 
find a combination. SWG usually announce their agenda well ahead so 
community is free to discuss that on the list beforehand (at the SWG 
meeting someone could then say "mood on list seems to favour this/that", 
of course SWG could still decide otherwise). Problem is that, being 
conducted by humans like us, SWG meetings do not always follow the 
agenda strictly. Might be necessary to add discipline to SWG meetings in 
form of "don't discuss stuff that wasn't on the agenda - put them on 
agenda for next week", then again that would cause more bueraucracy 
overhead and reduce usefulness...


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Dave F.]

On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote:
I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I 
was reading...


A quick note to point out that we'd wouldn't be able to have this 
discussion on IRC as we either live in different time zones or our sleep 
patterns are asynchronous.


Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Robert Kaiser]

SteveC schrieb:

You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the 
new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic 
discussion on it and nothing would happen. Any progress at all in any direction 
now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it 
very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. 
We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated.


You might want to take a look at how we came up with a somewhat 
facelifted Firefox logo some time ago at Mozilla. There was both a clear 
path led by individuals and designers with swift decisions being made 
and at the same time good ways for input from the community, which was 
weighed in the process - and it took 2 or 3 proposals to come to the 
final one, which is always good as everyone forgets something in that 
work - like the screwed up perspective in that OSM logo rework (and I 
also think that one is hard to reduce to small sizes and still be 
useful, for example).


It's good that some activity is being done, but it can be done better. 
In that light, let's try to make it better. :)


Robert Kaiser


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Grant Slater]

On 2 May 2011 12:43, Dave F.  wrote:
> On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote:
>>
>> I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was
>> reading...
>
> A quick note to point out that we'd wouldn't be able to have this discussion
> on IRC as we either live in different time zones or our sleep patterns are
> asynchronous.
>

OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting
planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L
1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or
maybe we should alternate?

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Jeffrey Ollie]

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 5:22 AM, Thomas Davie  wrote:
>
> On 2 May 2011, at 11:18, Dave F. wrote:
>
>> On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote:
>>>
>>> I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was 
>>> reading.
>>>
>>> In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or 
>>> whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with 
>>> it!
>>
>> No. Don't use IRC!!!
>>
>> Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of *everything* 
>> that's said & allows *all* to contribute at *all* times.
>>
>> It's really simple. Even enough for you to deal with it.
>
> But causes discussions that could be had in 10 minutes to get spread out over 
> 10 weeks ;)

And also ignores people that can't use IRC for a number of reasons
(work doesn't allow it, generally), or like me choose not to hang out
on IRC all day because it's incredibly disruptive to actually *getting
work done*.

-- 
Jeff Ollie

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Dave F.]

On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote:

OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting
planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L
1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or
maybe we should alternate?


What part of "Don't use IRC" did you not comprehend?

Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not 
make it a universal useful discussion forum.


If you & OSMF & SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist on 
using IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of intentional 
exclusivity.


Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Everything would be better if Dave F. was in charge. The trains would 
run on time, logos would go through his personal approval process and 
unicorns would frolic near a turquoise lake in the sun.


So, anyway, Grant was trying to be nice to you and offering to bring you 
in to the process that everyone else is happy with. Don't throw it back 
in his face.


Steve


On 5/3/2011 4:53 PM, Dave F. wrote:

On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote:

OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting
planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L
1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or
maybe we should alternate?


What part of "Don't use IRC" did you not comprehend?

Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not 
make it a universal useful discussion forum.


If you & OSMF & SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist 
on using IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of 
intentional exclusivity.


Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Mikel Maron]

We also discuss frequently on the strategic mailing list, so there's 
asynchronous options as well to participate. For people who want to discuss 
things reasonably, that is.

 == Mikel Maron ==
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron





From: Dave F. 
To: OSM Talk 
Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 6:53:45 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote:
> OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting
> planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L
> 1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or
> maybe we should alternate?

What part of "Don't use IRC" did you not comprehend?

Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not make it 
a 
universal useful discussion forum.

If you & OSMF & SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist on using 
IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of intentional exclusivity.

Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Serge Wroclawski]

Dave,

This issue comes up constantly and no group has found any solutions
which are ideal.

Some folks suggest meetings using, say Gnome meeting, and then they're
doled it's hard to set up, so Skype is suggested. Then some say Skype
is proprietary, so we should switch to a phone conference system.
Those cost money, and even when we use them, often there's noise, or
it's hard to hear people, and significant time is spent dealing with
phone issues. It's then suggested IRC is better because there are no
audio issues. Then some, like you, complain about IRC.

The time issue isn't solvable either. Finding a time that works with
everyone, with different schedules, is hard enough. Now add the fact
that OSM members are distributed around the world, and the problem is
simply not solvable.

Many of us have tried tools to help with this, like Doodle, and we've
tried having meetings at different times, and neither one works.
People always feel left out if they can't attend, and having different
meeting times just makes people apt to miss the meetings, and then you
get different meetings with non-overlapping attendees.

The frustration you hear from folks like Steve stems from the fact
that folks like Grant and the others in the project put in their
personal time and effort to make this project as good as they can make
it, and so often instead of due praise for working so diligently
trying to make the project succeed, they get a lot of criticism from
the community. It's easy for us to forget how much time and energy it
takes to do the kind of work Grant and others do, and while I'm not
saying they or anyone else is immune from criticism, I think that it
needs to be measured against their good works.

Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real
time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Anders Arnholm]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

2011-05-04 03:23, Serge Wroclawski skrev:

> Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real
> time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group.

The problem is that with the need for real time, at best 1/3 of the
world is at sleeping time at every given moment of the day. This 1/3
will potentially feel left out. Real time meetings as such always is a
major problem in activities spread around the world.

The only solutions so far I seen so far that might work is to flatten
the earth and that way remove time zones. That may not be a practical
one thou.

With the limitations of it have to be real time, the question is not how
to find a solutions but who should be asleep while the meetings go on.

/ Balp

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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 05/04/11 03:23, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real
time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group.


The alternative to communicating in real-time is fundamentally changing 
your organisational structure to reduce international decision-making to 
an absolute bare minimum by devolution.


For example, move to a kind of distributed software/database 
architecture, incorporate OpenStreetMap Australia, let them collect 
their own funds, operate their own database, make their own decisions, 
have their own logo, have their own project main page, have their own 
strategy working group, have their own license, and so on.


Same for other continents or time zone bands.

I know it sounds crazy and it is certainly not something we can do 
tomorrow - but then again many of us are better (and more comfortable) 
solving technical problems than dealing with humans.


I am sure there must be other international projects where there is no 
centrally planned strategy and central funding/operations, just a very 
thin and powerless international body in which the regional/national 
organisations are members, and the latter have all the funding, 
operations, and manpower.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Martin Mares]

Hello!

> Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real
> time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group.

I have another suggestion: learn how to use e-mail efficiently :-)

An e-mail discussion need not take weeks if all interested people respond
at least once in a day and off-topic e-mails are ignored instead of turned
into flames. It takes a different mindset from on-line conversations
(batch processing instead of on-line), but I have already seen many
projects where it was very efficient.

Have a nice fortnight
-- 
Martin `MJ' Mares http://mj.ucw.cz/
Faculty of Math and Physics, Charles University, Prague, Czech Rep., Earth
Nothing is smiple enough to be not screwed up.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Felix Hartmann]

Why not setup a "Wave" server, using google Wave software. It's open 
source, and really efficient for real time as well as non real time 
communication. Alternative a google server could be used, but then it is 
just like other proprietary tools (though based on opensource software).


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