Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/25/20883706/facebook-ar-glasses-prototypes-live-maps-announce-oc6

According to a video, it will produce “multi-layer representations of 
the world” using crowdsourced data, traditional maps, and footage 
captured through phones and augmented reality glasses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTa8zn0RNVM


Às 08:47 de 26/07/2019, Frederik Ramm escreveu:

Hi,

On 25.07.19 22:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:

This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago.

In case anyone doubts that -

https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/07/facebook-ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world.html

"Recently, Facebook released a statement about its new effort to create
an OpenStreetMap project to not only benefit from mapping data but also
making this platform an open-source navigational source for users."

And the rest of the article is about how Facebook's only purpose is to
bring comfort to people's lives etc.

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

Sorry I but I disagree. Yoga is a long tradition in OpenStreetMap ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPq4X47x3x0

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 10:04:46 AM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:  
 
 

sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2019, at 03:34, Naveen Francis  wrote:
> 
> Try YOGA it will help you.


I don’t believe this is an acceptable comment in the OpenStreetMap context, it 
may be at wikimedia, here it is not.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2019, at 03:34, Naveen Francis  wrote:
> 
> Try YOGA it will help you.


I don’t believe this is an acceptable comment in the OpenStreetMap context, it 
may be at wikimedia, here it is not.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Naveen Francis]

Hello Nuno

I get your point
Try YOGA it will help you.

thanks,
naveenpf


On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:18 PM Nuno Caldeira 
wrote:

>
> Às 11:02 de 29/07/2019, Naveen Francis escreveu:
> >
> > On the rhetoric question:-
> > We are using OSM maps life savings projects.
> > https://keralarescue.in/map/ . (2018 Kerala floods maps)
> > So both quantity and quality are equally important.
> >
> I don't see the attribution on that map, or that website has an
> exception like Facebook seems to have too?
>
> Oh it does attribute, but you have to scroll down to see it. must be a
> UX mistake...
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Aug 2019, at 23:54, Nuno Caldeira  wrote:
> 
> About this lovely OSMF corporate member, 9 months since i asked 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082702.html them to 
> fix attribution and they are still attributing OSM maps to HERE. a round of 
> applause for this outstanding support and example of OSM data usage by an 
> OSMF member.


you are right that this is indeed an open issue, and it is a pity we have not 
read a word from the foundation about this. Shall we simply tolerate their 
abuse, of wouldn’t it be an option to at least suspend their membership if they 
continue to systematically ignore the attribution requirements?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Aug 2019, at 18:35, Kathleen Lu via talk  wrote:
> 
> I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own POIs 
> instead of OSM's. 


what Joseph said was: “... it's disingenuous if Facebook claims to be strongly 
supporting OSM, while continuing to keep their ... data in a ... proprietary 
database.”


Of course they can keep their data, what is disingenuous is keeping your 
crowdsourced data for yourself while presenting yourself as the savior of 
OpenStreetMap, when all you are actually doing is providing data that would be 
too bad to be used as is (otherwise they would use it and not share with us, 
likely) in the hope, someone will fix it for free. 

Cheers Martin 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

i agree with Kathleen here, we don't need their junk POIs. Actually we 
shouldn't have anything to do with companies that uses OSM the way they 
do without complying with the license and OSMF guidelines. This is still 
to be taken into consideration 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082653.html


About this lovely OSMF corporate member, 9 months since i asked 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082702.html 
them to fix attribution and they are still attributing OSM maps to HERE. 
a round of applause for this outstanding support and example of OSM data 
usage by an OSMF member.


Video capture of app their Local app https://www.facebook.com/local/ (i 
meant to say "my contributions", not "my attributions" during the video 
capturing): https://youtu.be/Ah9FyiT6JKk


My contributions on OSM displayed on the 
videohttps://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448052037#map=17/32.64575/-16.90531


Cable car https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25975745

HERE map at same location 
https://wego.here.com/?map=32.64615,-16.90117,17,public_transport


Feel free to check your location and your edits on OSM being credited to 
HERE and share them here (i mean on the mailing list, not HERE).



Às 17:35 de 01/08/2019, Kathleen Lu via talk escreveu:
I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own 
POIs instead of OSM's. Wasn't the whole point of the Collective 
Databases principle and the Collective Databases Guideline 
specifically to enable this type of usage, so that those interested in 
OSM did not have to make an "all or nothing" choice?


On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Besides the tech boosterism, another issue is that it's disingenuous
if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to
keep their valuable user-provided data in a separate, proprietary
database.

Facebook and Google have the two best lists of POIs like shops and
restaurants, and an extensive database of customer photos and reviews
which they control. While Facebook has decided to use OSM for road,
street and waterway data (which they couldn't easily have users add),
they keep this data for themselves. Were Facebook interested in
improving OSM, they could share their POI data, including when a
feature was last visited and notes about which feature no longer
exist. This could add millions more OSM contributors for features like
shops and restaurants, which are not yet completely mapped even in
well-developed OSM communities in Europe, and it would be
revolutionary in Indonesia and Thailand.

Only a few people will every become hobby mappers, adding waterways,
highways, landuse and such for fun, but every business owner wants to
see their shop or office on Facebook, so these POIs would be added and
kept up-to-date by users.

I don't expect Facebook to share this data for free, because a large
part of their business model is recording your geodata and using this
to maximize profit for their shareholders, but if they ever decide to
really prove "we're not that evil", sharing their data could go a long
way to changing Facebooks poor reputation for corporate responsibility
and transparency.

Joseph

On 8/1/19, stevea mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>> wrote:
> (I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody
gets this
> twice).
>
> Thanks, Jóhannes.  I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly
surprised
> it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier: 
"a balance
> between turbocharged and exploitation."  I hear you as you say that
> mapwith.ai  has, as I described, a
comfortable workflow of "AI suggests,
> human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be
uploaded, human
> uploads."  That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the
loop" and the
> human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for
the sake of
> being there.  This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality"
is a
> critical component of what I am saying.
>
> What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press
announcement"
> as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that
made AI
> sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save
mapping in OSM
> somehow.  It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an
important tool
> going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and
a hawkish
> eye towards high quality).  OSM is, and will always be, a
> human-participating project, with all of the social and "get
outdoors and
> map" project as one (human) might like it to be.  AI can and
does help,
> that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."
>
> Again, it sounds like there is a 

Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own POIs
instead of OSM's. Wasn't the whole point of the Collective Databases
principle and the Collective Databases Guideline specifically to enable
this type of usage, so that those interested in OSM did not have to make an
"all or nothing" choice?

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Besides the tech boosterism, another issue is that it's disingenuous
> if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to
> keep their valuable user-provided data in a separate, proprietary
> database.
>
> Facebook and Google have the two best lists of POIs like shops and
> restaurants, and an extensive database of customer photos and reviews
> which they control. While Facebook has decided to use OSM for road,
> street and waterway data (which they couldn't easily have users add),
> they keep this data for themselves. Were Facebook interested in
> improving OSM, they could share their POI data, including when a
> feature was last visited and notes about which feature no longer
> exist. This could add millions more OSM contributors for features like
> shops and restaurants, which are not yet completely mapped even in
> well-developed OSM communities in Europe, and it would be
> revolutionary in Indonesia and Thailand.
>
> Only a few people will every become hobby mappers, adding waterways,
> highways, landuse and such for fun, but every business owner wants to
> see their shop or office on Facebook, so these POIs would be added and
> kept up-to-date by users.
>
> I don't expect Facebook to share this data for free, because a large
> part of their business model is recording your geodata and using this
> to maximize profit for their shareholders, but if they ever decide to
> really prove "we're not that evil", sharing their data could go a long
> way to changing Facebooks poor reputation for corporate responsibility
> and transparency.
>
> Joseph
>
> On 8/1/19, stevea  wrote:
> > (I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this
> > twice).
> >
> > Thanks, Jóhannes.  I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly
> surprised
> > it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:  "a balance
> > between turbocharged and exploitation."  I hear you as you say that
> > mapwith.ai has, as I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests,
> > human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human
> > uploads."  That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the loop" and the
> > human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for the sake
> of
> > being there.  This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality" is a
> > critical component of what I am saying.
> >
> > What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press
> announcement"
> > as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI
> > sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in
> OSM
> > somehow.  It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool
> > going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a
> hawkish
> > eye towards high quality).  OSM is, and will always be, a
> > human-participating project, with all of the social and "get outdoors and
> > map" project as one (human) might like it to be.  AI can and does help,
> > that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."
> >
> > Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.
> >
> > SteveA
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

I misquoted Mikel Maron by saying he called Facebook's example of this AI 
technology in OSM "a balance between turbocharged and exploitation."  In fact, 
he has told me he dislikes both terms immensely in this discussion.

I regret my error and apologize to Mikel.

SteveA

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Besides the tech boosterism, another issue is that it's disingenuous
if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to
keep their valuable user-provided data in a separate, proprietary
database.

Facebook and Google have the two best lists of POIs like shops and
restaurants, and an extensive database of customer photos and reviews
which they control. While Facebook has decided to use OSM for road,
street and waterway data (which they couldn't easily have users add),
they keep this data for themselves. Were Facebook interested in
improving OSM, they could share their POI data, including when a
feature was last visited and notes about which feature no longer
exist. This could add millions more OSM contributors for features like
shops and restaurants, which are not yet completely mapped even in
well-developed OSM communities in Europe, and it would be
revolutionary in Indonesia and Thailand.

Only a few people will every become hobby mappers, adding waterways,
highways, landuse and such for fun, but every business owner wants to
see their shop or office on Facebook, so these POIs would be added and
kept up-to-date by users.

I don't expect Facebook to share this data for free, because a large
part of their business model is recording your geodata and using this
to maximize profit for their shareholders, but if they ever decide to
really prove "we're not that evil", sharing their data could go a long
way to changing Facebooks poor reputation for corporate responsibility
and transparency.

Joseph

On 8/1/19, stevea  wrote:
> (I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this
> twice).
>
> Thanks, Jóhannes.  I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly surprised
> it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:  "a balance
> between turbocharged and exploitation."  I hear you as you say that
> mapwith.ai has, as I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests,
> human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human
> uploads."  That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the loop" and the
> human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for the sake of
> being there.  This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality" is a
> critical component of what I am saying.
>
> What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press announcement"
> as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI
> sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in OSM
> somehow.  It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool
> going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a hawkish
> eye towards high quality).  OSM is, and will always be, a
> human-participating project, with all of the social and "get outdoors and
> map" project as one (human) might like it to be.  AI can and does help,
> that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."
>
> Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.
>
> SteveA
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

(I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this twice).

Thanks, Jóhannes.  I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly surprised it 
does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:  "a balance between 
turbocharged and exploitation."  I hear you as you say that mapwith.ai has, as 
I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests, human maps, human checks 
that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human uploads."  That's fine, it does 
indeed have "a human in the loop" and the human checks for quality, the human 
is not just being there for the sake of being there.  This aspect of "humans, 
not AI, determine quality" is a critical component of what I am saying.

What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press announcement" as 
a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI sound as 
if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in OSM somehow.  It 
isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool going forward, 
especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a hawkish eye towards high 
quality).  OSM is, and will always be, a human-participating project, with all 
of the social and "get outdoors and map" project as one (human) might like it 
to be.  AI can and does help, that's fine, as long as humans are always "in 
charge."

Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.

SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

31. júlí 2019 kl. 19:01, skrifaði "stevea" :
 
> Just because, as you say (and I agree), that "human mappers have not been 
> able to produce high
> quality maps worldwide" doesn't mean that we can't, we simply must strive to 
> do better. And we do.
> And we should using available tools like AI, though if we do, we absolutely 
> must include a strong
> component of human-oriented quality assurance right at the forefront of doing 
> so.

For the sake of this discussion it should be pointed out that (except for 
initial Malaysia thing) the mapwith.ai website does just that.

The AI has found possible roads and it is up to humans to confirm if it is a 
road and re-classify it if Residential (the default) is not correct.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

Right (or nearly right, imo), Kathy:  thank you for your reply.

I didn't say OSM absolutely DOES have high quality.  In my last decade of 
mapping here, I certainly have seen it get better (in pockets) as well as worse 
(in smaller pockets), so on the whole, it gets better / higher quality.  What I 
did say is that OSM absolutely "CAN have high quality without AI."  We must 
strive to do so, knowing that we sometimes miss the mark.  But including AI 
without hawkish attention to quality is folly,

Just because, as you say (and I agree), that "human mappers have not been able 
to produce high quality maps worldwide" doesn't mean that we can't, we simply 
must strive to do better.  And we do.  And we should using available tools like 
AI, though if we do, we absolutely must include a strong component of 
human-oriented quality assurance right at the forefront of doing so.

It sounds like we largely agree.  Provided we keep quality at the top of our 
consciousness as we do so, whether we use AI or not.

I appreciate the opportunity to share dialog,
SteveA

> On Jul 31, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> 
> I agree that human wisdom is critical to high quality, and AI isn't useful 
> if, at the end of the process, it doesn't produce quality output, but I will 
> challenge this statement: "you can have high quality without AI." I don't 
> think that's definitively true for a global map. It's very difficult to keep 
> something at that scale that is constantly changing up to date, and while OSM 
> is very high quality in some areas, human mappers have not been able to 
> produce high quality maps worldwide. Corporations that use traditional survey 
> techniques also have a lot of difficulty even while spending $$$ (and many if 
> not all of them are also using AI). AI can augment human mapping in ways to 
> make scale more manageable, and I think both will be needed to make a 
> worldwide high quality map.  
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:26 AM stevea  wrote:
> Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
> SteveA
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

I agree that human wisdom is critical to high quality, and AI isn't useful
if, at the end of the process, it doesn't produce quality output, but I
will challenge this statement: "you can have high quality without AI." I
don't think that's definitively true for a global map. It's very difficult
to keep something at that scale that is constantly changing up to date, and
while OSM is very high quality in some areas, human mappers have not been
able to produce high quality maps worldwide. Corporations that use
traditional survey techniques also have a lot of difficulty even while
spending $$$ (and many if not all of them are also using AI). AI can
augment human mapping in ways to make scale more manageable, and I think
both will be needed to make a worldwide high quality map.


On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:26 AM stevea  wrote:

> Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
> SteveA
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
SteveA


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

I believe introducing into OSM technologies based in AI / machine learning 
REQUIRES a concomitant discussion about how the data WILL BE high quality, 
because they are quality assured (and perhaps here is a brief sketch of our QA 
process, or a pointer thereto).  Anything less feels disingenuous to me, as 
well as logically appears to be a false choice.  To say "quality issues are a 
seperate issue" (sic) seems an insult to OSM and indeed the very introduction 
of the AI technologies themselves to our project.

It is early (well, "earlier") days for these technologies as they are being 
built and deployed today, and while many (myself included) agree they can be 
useful and have their place, they MUST be accompanied by a social conscious as 
we do so.  OSM already has strong tenets like community-developed consensus to 
create such a social conscious, so deploying AI without eyes wide open and a 
firm hand on the tiller is nothing less than insanity doomed to failure.  The 
least we can do is to strongly couple discussions of quality with AI 
deployments, rather than divorcing them by declaring them "simply 
announcement."  I know that whenever I hear such "announcements" without any 
discussion of how quality will be assured that it is time to be immediately 
skeptical.  Please, let's keep AI on track by coupling it with discussions of 
quality, not making them separate issues, because truly, they are not.  Simply 
wishing that we can separate AI and quality will only more firmly entrench 
those of us who know to keep them together:  you can have high quality without 
AI, but you really shouldn't have AI without high quality.  Not as long as 
human wisdom is present and has something to say about it.

Not to put it too dramatically:  do we really want to hasten "the robots are 
taking over" by taking the throttle off, by ignoring or diminishing the 
importance of quality and its discernment by humans?  Of course not. 

SteveA

> On Jul 31, 2019, at 6:27 AM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 10:41:17AM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote:
>> Am 25.07.2019 um 11:36 schrieb Florian Lohoff:
>>> And IIRC it was about a
>>> collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
>>> was.
>> I just remember that the "collaboration" in Thailand some time ago
>> (might be years) was quite poor: by using AI generated data simply
>> thrown into the database they destroyed a lot of craft-mapped data. But
>> unfortunately I am not aware how this evolved and about the current
>> situation. That's the background why I would be very cautious about such
>> "collaboration statements".
> 
> The point was not about quality but about announcement and speaking up
> publicly about it. 
> 
> And Facebook did - loud and clear for everyone to hear - Quality
> issues are a seperate issue. I am pretty shure that AI can not replace
> human, on the ground, observation. It can help identify places to
> visit.
> 
> Flo
> -- 
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
>UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Florian Lohoff]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 10:41:17AM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote:
> Am 25.07.2019 um 11:36 schrieb Florian Lohoff:
> > And IIRC it was about a
> > collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
> > was.
> I just remember that the "collaboration" in Thailand some time ago
> (might be years) was quite poor: by using AI generated data simply
> thrown into the database they destroyed a lot of craft-mapped data. But
> unfortunately I am not aware how this evolved and about the current
> situation. That's the background why I would be very cautious about such
> "collaboration statements".

The point was not about quality but about announcement and speaking up
publicly about it. 

And Facebook did - loud and clear for everyone to hear - Quality
issues are a seperate issue. I am pretty shure that AI can not replace
human, on the ground, observation. It can help identify places to
visit.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Yves]

John, Kathleen, thank you for this perspective I did not have.
Yves 

Le 29 juillet 2019 19:25:34 GMT+02:00, john whelan  a 
écrit :
>I agree with Kathleen.  Given that smartphones are more common than
>internet connected computers and it is easier to add or change tags on
>a
>smartphone than add a long highway at least the locals stand more
>chance
>this way.
>
>Cheerio John
>
>On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 1:00 PM Kathleen Lu via talk,
>
>wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, if the map of your area is completely blank, it
>looks
>> very daunting to a new mapper, who may be discouraged and abandon OSM
>> (either as too difficult to improve and as too poor quality to use).
>> The map is constantly changing because roads and other things on the
>map
>> are changing in the real world. A city might close off a road and
>then it
>> will become a "bad" street. It's easier to delete a bad street than
>to add
>> a bunch of streets, especially when you are surveying on foot and
>don't
>> have a mouse.
>> I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:21 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having
>101%
>>> of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
>>> fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"
>>>
>>> I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
>>> 1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and
>you
>>> must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
>>> find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
>>> really go through that clump of trees.
>>>
>>> In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
>>> the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it
>may
>>> actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home
>neighborhood,
>>> than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
>>> neighborhood.
>>>
>>> Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
>>> won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
>>> OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
>>> get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data
>that
>>> our robot mappers have added.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Yves]

No need to argue that much about it:
I think everyone will agree that we should not, at any case, add a track in OSM 
that doesn't exist.
It can be dangerous in any emergency situation anywhere in the world.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mark Wagner]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:53:07 -0400
Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 6:19 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
> 
> > speaking about risks, having an incomplete network of verified,
> > correct roads is probably more useful and less troublesome than an
> > "overcomplete" one which also contains non-existent roads (e.g.
> > waterways interpreted as roads) or shows connections that aren't
> > there in reality. 
> 
> I think this position should be a bit more nuanced.  Taken to
> absurdity, OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than
> having 101% of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of
> extras, because fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by
> hand.  I'm sure we can find a good balance between both positions.

Having hiked in areas with 1% maps, and having hiked in areas with 101%
maps, I have to say that I prefer the 1% map.  With the 1% map, there's
at least no question that you're off the map and on your own for
route-finding.  With the 101% map, it's very easy to get in trouble
because the connecting trail you were counting on doesn't exist.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Map filled with nonsense is even worse, new mappers are much more scared by 
deleting thinks
than by mapping new ones.


29 Jul 2019, 18:57 by talk@openstreetmap.org:

> On the other hand, if the map of your area is completely blank, it looks very 
> daunting to a new mapper, who may be discouraged and abandon OSM (either as 
> too difficult to improve and as too poor quality to use).
> The map is constantly changing because roads and other things on the map are 
> changing in the real world. A city might close off a road and then it will 
> become a "bad" street. It's easier to delete a bad street than to add a bunch 
> of streets, especially when you are surveying on foot and don't have a mouse.
> I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:21 AM Joseph Eisenberg <> 
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com > > wrote:
>
>> Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101%
>>  of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
>>  fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"
>>  
>>  I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
>>  1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and you
>>  must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
>>  find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
>>  really go through that clump of trees.
>>  
>>  In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
>>  the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it may
>>  actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home neighborhood,
>>  than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
>>  neighborhood.
>>  
>>  Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
>>  won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
>>  OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
>>  get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data that
>>  our robot mappers have added.
>>  
>>  Joseph
>>  
>>  ___
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>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> 
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 19:00 Uhr schrieb Kathleen Lu via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org>:

> I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.
>



it depends what you want to do with it, for data statistics or geocoding
I'd also prefer a 101% map over a 1% map, but if I were to hike in
difficult environment I'd much rather have a 1% map from OSM than a 101%
map. A 1% map is certainly more inspiring than a 101% map. Probably a map
with 1% roads and road connections that don't exist would make you turn
away and choose a different map.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Also, fully accurate data is a myth, even if we only have 1%
completeness. Once data is beyond a certain size, it is guaranteed to be
wrong, simply because humans always make mistakes and things always become
outdated.  We can only discuss how close we are to the ideal "perfect
accuracy", and what is the best method(s) to get there.  Per above, going
from 1% to 101% completeness certainly gets us closer to the perfect
accuracy, especially as John mentioned, with a mobile device it is easier
to flag some minor mistake than to ignore the whole area because it only
has 1% completeness.

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 1:28 PM john whelan  wrote:

> I agree with Kathleen.  Given that smartphones are more common than
> internet connected computers and it is easier to add or change tags on a
> smartphone than add a long highway at least the locals stand more chance
> this way.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 1:00 PM Kathleen Lu via talk, <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, if the map of your area is completely blank, it looks
>> very daunting to a new mapper, who may be discouraged and abandon OSM
>> (either as too difficult to improve and as too poor quality to use).
>> The map is constantly changing because roads and other things on the map
>> are changing in the real world. A city might close off a road and then it
>> will become a "bad" street. It's easier to delete a bad street than to add
>> a bunch of streets, especially when you are surveying on foot and don't
>> have a mouse.
>> I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:21 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101%
>>> of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
>>> fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"
>>>
>>> I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
>>> 1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and you
>>> must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
>>> find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
>>> really go through that clump of trees.
>>>
>>> In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
>>> the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it may
>>> actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home neighborhood,
>>> than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
>>> neighborhood.
>>>
>>> Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
>>> won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
>>> OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
>>> get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data that
>>> our robot mappers have added.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[john whelan]

I agree with Kathleen.  Given that smartphones are more common than
internet connected computers and it is easier to add or change tags on a
smartphone than add a long highway at least the locals stand more chance
this way.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 1:00 PM Kathleen Lu via talk, 
wrote:

> On the other hand, if the map of your area is completely blank, it looks
> very daunting to a new mapper, who may be discouraged and abandon OSM
> (either as too difficult to improve and as too poor quality to use).
> The map is constantly changing because roads and other things on the map
> are changing in the real world. A city might close off a road and then it
> will become a "bad" street. It's easier to delete a bad street than to add
> a bunch of streets, especially when you are surveying on foot and don't
> have a mouse.
> I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:21 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101%
>> of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
>> fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"
>>
>> I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
>> 1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and you
>> must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
>> find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
>> really go through that clump of trees.
>>
>> In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
>> the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it may
>> actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home neighborhood,
>> than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
>> neighborhood.
>>
>> Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
>> won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
>> OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
>> get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data that
>> our robot mappers have added.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

On the other hand, if the map of your area is completely blank, it looks
very daunting to a new mapper, who may be discouraged and abandon OSM
(either as too difficult to improve and as too poor quality to use).
The map is constantly changing because roads and other things on the map
are changing in the real world. A city might close off a road and then it
will become a "bad" street. It's easier to delete a bad street than to add
a bunch of streets, especially when you are surveying on foot and don't
have a mouse.
I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:21 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101%
> of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
> fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"
>
> I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
> 1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and you
> must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
> find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
> really go through that clump of trees.
>
> In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
> the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it may
> actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home neighborhood,
> than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
> neighborhood.
>
> Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
> won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
> OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
> get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data that
> our robot mappers have added.
>
> Joseph
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101%
of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"

I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and you
must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
really go through that clump of trees.

In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it may
actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home neighborhood,
than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
neighborhood.

Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data that
our robot mappers have added.

Joseph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 6:19 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> speaking about risks, having an incomplete network of verified, correct
> roads is probably more useful and less troublesome than an "overcomplete"
> one which also contains non-existent roads (e.g. waterways interpreted as
> roads) or shows connections that aren't there in reality.
>

I think this position should be a bit more nuanced.  Taken to absurdity,
OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101% of the
roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because fixing that 1%
is far less work than adding 99% by hand.  I'm sure we can find a good
balance between both positions.

Thx!
--Yuri
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Now you are being obtuse.

29. júlí 2019 kl. 11:53, skrifaði "Nuno Caldeira" 
:
> I don't see the attribution on that map, or that website has an
> exception like Facebook seems to have too?
> 
> Oh it does attribute, but you have to scroll down to see it. must be a
> UX mistake...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

Às 11:02 de 29/07/2019, Naveen Francis escreveu:


On the rhetoric question:-
We are using OSM maps life savings projects. 
https://keralarescue.in/map/ . (2018 Kerala floods maps)

So both quantity and quality are equally important.

I don't see the attribution on that map, or that website has an 
exception like Facebook seems to have too?


Oh it does attribute, but you have to scroll down to see it. must be a 
UX mistake...



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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 29.07.19 11:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Almost a week has passed by. Have their been attempts by the board or a
> working group to get rectifications of the media outlets in order to
> make clear that there is no collaboration between OSM and Facebook for
> this ai project?

The board has neither discussed this nor taken any further steps. I
don't know if any working group has.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:05 Uhr schrieb Naveen Francis <
navee...@wikimedia.in>:

> We are using OSM maps life savings projects. https://keralarescue.in/map/ .
> (2018 Kerala floods maps)
> So both quantity and quality are equally important.
>


speaking about risks, having an incomplete network of verified, correct
roads is probably more useful and less troublesome than an "overcomplete"
one which also contains non-existent roads (e.g. waterways interpreted as
roads) or shows connections that aren't there in reality.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Naveen Francis]

Thanks Simon for the caution.

Taking the of help AI doesn't mean that we do comprise on the quality.

All the methods for initial road tracing, GPS tracing, Satellite image
tracing or AI-assisted human mapping (which I have tried) has limitations.

On Indian roads, we try to document as much as possible so that we don't
make errors.  

On the rhetoric question:-
We are using OSM maps life savings projects. https://keralarescue.in/map/ .
(2018 Kerala floods maps)
So both quantity and quality are equally important.

Another good thing is we have already implemented your suggestion -
sensible comparison would be completeness measures per road categories

Categories wise completeness
NH : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India:National_Highways_(statewise)
SH:- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India:Roads#State_highways

All the best for fixing Tiger imports.

thanks,
naveenpf


On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 4:15 PM Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> Am 26.07.2019 um 19:30 schrieb Naveen Francis:
>
> Including my ₹ 0.10 (Indian ten paisa)
>
> Echoes same thoughts of Brazilian Real.
>
> AI-assisted human mapping tools will be a good aid for the OSM community.
>
> "Map faster, Map better".
>
> 40,00,000 kms to be mapped in India.
> 15 years of OSM mapped 18,00,000 kms.
>
> The (rhetoric) question is, why is this the case?
>
> Because the community in India is still very small relative to the
> population size.
>
> So from where will the additional contributors come from that will turn
> the additional 4 million road geometries in to something really useful?
> There is a real danger of the desire for "completeness" instead of quality
> resulting in multiple TIGER 2.0s, and we are just now slowly working
> ourselves out of the hole we dug (full of good intentions) with the
> original.
>
> Note on the side: outside of raw total  road length, a much more sensible
> comparison would be completeness measures per road categories (which I
> suspect is likely to look far less dramatic) and which might give more
> realistic goals for the community.
>
> Simon
>
>
> thanks,
> naveenpf
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:42 AM Sérgio V.  wrote:
>
>> Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
>> I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be a very
>> good help.
>> But I can't evaluate what's been publicized July 23, 2019 by
>>
>> https://ai.facebook.com/blog/mapping-roads-through-deep-learning-and-weakly-supervised-training
>> "To browse our machine learning road predictions or start mapping with
>> RapiD, please visit mapwith.ai."
>> So at "Map faster, Map better" https://mapwith.ai/#14/6.13864/6.7698 ,
>> I actually can't evaluate any result for roads at max zoom level 14, to
>> see if it's really better. I can just believe it can be.
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>
>> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 25. Juli 2019 um 22:06 Uhr schrieb Frederik Ramm <
frede...@remote.org>:

> Hi,
>
> On 7/25/19 17:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > so it is an official OpenStreetMap effort, the OpenStreetMap-Foundation
> > is involved, and this is their statement? This is the impression I would
> > get from reading this paragraph without background information.
>
> No it is not. This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
> OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago. It would be nice if our
> communications working group had the capacity of rectifying such
> misinformation, or if companies could simply treat us more fairly in
> their never-ending quest for attention,
>


Almost a week has passed by. Have their been attempts by the board or a
working group to get rectifications of the media outlets in order to make
clear that there is no collaboration between OSM and Facebook for this ai
project?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 25.07.2019 um 11:36 schrieb Florian Lohoff:

And IIRC it was about a
collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
was.

I just remember that the "collaboration" in Thailand some time ago
(might be years) was quite poor: by using AI generated data simply
thrown into the database they destroyed a lot of craft-mapped data. But
unfortunately I am not aware how this evolved and about the current
situation. That's the background why I would be very cautious about such
"collaboration statements".


BR,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

I'd love to move into rational and studied discussion of corporate involvement 
in OSM and the application of machine learning techniques. 
It's easy to get caught up in rhetoric. I dislike "turbocharged" as much as I 
dislike "exploitation". The entire application of machine learning is plagued 
with overblown rhetoric, when after all, it is simply a statistical technique.
OpenStreetMap was founded on equal parts radical, reactionary rhetoric, and 
JFDI. It's also easy to forget how much traditional map making rejected OSM --  
that the craft of surveying is not something to be left to wild hooligans. 
While at the same time the involvement of companies was a critical part of the 
vision since 2004, from helping build software, selling GPS devices, hosting 
servers, and contributing data. And certainly bringing new people into the 
community -- no matter how people find OSM, I have almost universally seen a 
magic gleam in the eye of people who take part, that forms the core of many 
corporate initiatives in OSM. Just because my brain exploded with that vision 
of OSM before I started having the supreme privilege to spend my working days 
on it does not entitle me to some more exalted position.
I wonder if some of us have lost touch with that spirit, as OpenStreetMap has 
succeeded so wildly. I was so absorbed the audacious vision of OSM in 2005, I 
still am regularly shocked that anyone takes OSM seriously. Yes it is radical 
in 2019 to reject corporations and machine learning. But I think we have a lot 
more to offer than conservative rejection; rather we have a wildly successful, 
collaborative, practical approach that puts humans in the fore of complex 
technologies, as the world grapples with very complex times.
The reaction to Facebook's work really confuses me. Have critics of it actually 
tried it? I found it a measured approach, where every edit needs to be examined 
closely by a human and is checked for quality. The advantage of it, where I 
tried it in a dense partially mapped urban settlement, is that it highlighted 
missing streets very well, and made what would have been a maddening squinting 
process a bit smoother and more enjoyable. I still felt satisfaction in what I 
was doing. From talking with folks here in Kenya, there is genuine excitement 
at these new techniques. They've experienced the challenges of creating the 
map, and want to focus and build skills where their human abilities are most 
valuable. 
Now I am not saying that we accept anything without a critical examination. 
Absolutely not! What worries me is that our criticisms are not informed. And 
that there are valuable corporate contributions, and those that are not, and 
the same goes for new technologies.
Yes, there are quality issues. Yes, there are issues of the experience of the 
map and the community we built. Yes, there are serous issues of displacement 
and alienation. What are these specifically, and what are the range of 
responses we can explore together?
To take one example, Simon rightly points out that road geometry is only a 
portion, and perhaps the easiest portion, of what needs mapping. And that 
metrics to measure overall completeness sets real goals for us. How can we 
rally and build community around this? So many of our tools are oriented to 
greenfield mapping. What creative workflows, metrics, analysis and 
visualizations of OSM data can bring the same thrill of creating the map from a 
completely blank slate, to a stage of the map where the base geometry is there?
-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Saturday, July 27, 2019, 01:43:59 PM GMT+3, Simon Poole  
wrote:  
 
  

 
 Am 26.07.2019 um 19:30 schrieb Naveen Francis:
  
 
Including my ₹ 0.10 (Indian ten paisa)   Echoes same thoughts of Brazilian 
Real.  
  AI-assisted human mapping tools will be a good aid for the OSM community. 
  "Map faster, Map better". 
   
  40,00,000 kms to be mapped in India.  15 years of OSM mapped 18,00,000 kms. 

The (rhetoric) question is, why is this the case?
 
Because the community in India is still very small relative to the population 
size.  
 
 
So from where will the additional contributors come from that will turn the 
additional 4 million road geometries in to something really useful? There is a 
real danger of the desire for "completeness" instead of quality resulting in 
multiple TIGER 2.0s, and we are just now slowly working ourselves out of the 
hole we dug (full of good intentions) with the original.  
 
 
Note on the side: outside of raw total  road length, a much more sensible 
comparison would be completeness measures per road categories (which I suspect 
is likely to look far less dramatic) and which might give more realistic goals 
for the community.
 
Simon

  
   
  thanks,
  naveenpf

  On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:42 AM Sérgio V.  wrote:
  
  Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
  I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be a 

Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

Am 26.07.2019 um 19:30 schrieb Naveen Francis:
> Including my ₹ 0.10 (Indian ten paisa)
>  
> Echoes same thoughts of Brazilian Real. 
>
> AI-assisted human mapping tools will be a good aid for the OSM community.
>
> "Map faster, Map better". 
>
> 40,00,000 kms to be mapped in India. 
> 15 years of OSM mapped 18,00,000 kms.

The (rhetoric) question is, why is this the case?

Because the community in India is still very small relative to the
population size. 

So from where will the additional contributors come from that will turn
the additional 4 million road geometries in to something really useful?
There is a real danger of the desire for "completeness" instead of
quality resulting in multiple TIGER 2.0s, and we are just now slowly
working ourselves out of the hole we dug (full of good intentions) with
the original. 

Note on the side: outside of raw total  road length, a much more
sensible comparison would be completeness measures per road categories
(which I suspect is likely to look far less dramatic) and which might
give more realistic goals for the community.

Simon

>
> thanks,
> naveenpf
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:42 AM Sérgio V.  > wrote:
>
> Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
> I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be
> a very good help.
> But I can't evaluate what's been publicized July 23, 2019 by
> 
> https://ai.facebook.com/blog/mapping-roads-through-deep-learning-and-weakly-supervised-training
> "To browse our machine learning road predictions or start mapping
> with RapiD, please visit mapwith.ai ."
> So at "Map faster, Map better"
> https://mapwith.ai/#14/6.13864/6.7698 , 
> I actually can't evaluate any result for roads at max zoom level
> 14, to see if it's really better. I can just believe it can be. 
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Sérgio V .]

In a paralell thought, we could use more of Sentinel satellite weekly updated 
images 10m resolution in OSM for this kind of land covers.

>Arun Ganesh
>And yes, those glaciers have probably melted away and theres
>no practical way to ground truth them

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Arun Ganesh]

Well put stevea!
Lets not forget what originally brought many of us here together (at least
from my interactions with many of you in real life), a dream that humans
could create the most accurate representation of the world through open
collaboration.The support of FB massively increases the surface area of the
OSM project to touch more humans through a single window than any other
mediums we can currently imagine.

Most of the world is still under represented in the hobby/craftmapper group
that is the dominant voice of this list and forum. More people from smaller
cities and towns have gotten involved in OSM in India/South Asia from FB
groups than other channels simply because its more easily accessible and
has a greater reach to a largely phone based internet population.

This is an opportunity to figure out a meaningful way to collaborate
constructively, and if its not happening in the way it should be, the
priority is to figure out how to facilitate that conversation in a
productive way. Making this a hobbyist vs corporate battle will just close
the door on a lot of the world which deserves to benefit from this project
and our collective work, and this is a world very different from what is
represented today on this list. How many know that as you read this, over
11 million people (thats the population of Belgium) are displaced in active
floods in India at this moment? FB/Whatsapp are what most people are using
to communicate and coordinate on the ground, they wouldn't care if it was a
corporate pariah or not as long as it works and can be used to help each
other.

If theres any place where volunteers who take pains to survey their
neighborhoods in great detail and make maps should be talking to first
responders in natural disasters and figure out best ways to collaborate
this is the place. Sure, corporates may be driven by profit, but behind
those layers and PR and AI, its still humans who sweat it out and
ultimately trying to build a better world using technology.

Full disclosure that i grew and managed one of the first organized
corporate mapping teams on OSM. You can call me a wonk or a paid agent and
thats fine, it wont stop me from tracing glaciers from satellite imagery in
the Himalayas in my free time and figuring out how it can help more people
on the ground. And yes, those glaciers have probably melted away and theres
no practical way to ground truth them, hopefully no one is annoyed at me
for that.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Sérgio V .]

That's also why I've always emphasized that the link for OSMF-talk email list
SHOULD be accessible for everyone to know it and read it (even if not signed to 
that mail list)
to be aware of what's going inside OSMF talks.
Not some hidden link in one in a thousand of wiki pages (I forgot it again).
It SHOULD be listed in the official LISTINFO, publicly:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo
While not, OSMF looks not much transparent for the simple collaborator.

>Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
>the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
>OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
>I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
>collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means
>"working" (labor) together, not just providing funds)
>Cheers,Martin


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

Excellent, Christoph.  I'll say that I have been (for decades, sometimes at a 
higher-level) in software (and data) quality assurance (QA) in major software 
companies (Apple, Adobe), some of whom make privacy and ethics important 
components of their way of doing business.  (Obviously, some companies are 
better, some are worse).  QA (departments) are often and precisely the sort of 
"corporate domain" where these ethical and social questions arise (and are 
often dealt with, however successfully).  I offer this knowledge in hopes it 
might steer you to both believe and further your quest that companies do care 
about these things, and that this has been "moderned up" with the application 
of machine learning / AI to big data (like OSM).  If not QA, there should be 
people at the C-level who know of what we speak here and can steer you in the 
right direction:  companies WANT to be known as good citizens who do the right 
things.

Yes, there are certainly profit-motivated behaviors and forces at work here 
(quite strongly, especially in the multibillion-$ major players of Big Tech), 
yet thankfully there are also humans at the helm.  Humans who know that their 
long-term success depends on playing fair, nice, transparently (to some extent, 
though gotta keep the edge sharp by keeping the "secret sauce" proprietary).  
Humans who are accountable.  Seek out these people, these departments, these 
ethical foundations, as if they exist, companies will proudly share them with 
you and can then be held accountable for doing so.  I think we're on the right 
track by doing this.

I don't know that there are any "white papers" that would be an existence proof 
of what I say, but I'm sure if we "pound the table for answers," we'll get at 
least something.  It might be weak sauce, it might have a heavy public 
relations spin on it (initially) but we've got to get the ball rolling by 
bringing such conversations out into the open.  Thank you for your suggestions 
to facilitate this.

SteveA

> On Jul 26, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> I think none of the critics of corporate appropriation and exploitation 
> of OSM here is opposed to rational discussion.  I have had plenty of 
> valuable discussions on use of automated techniques in geodata 
> analysis - both in the OSM context and outside of it.  But in the OSM 
> context these never happened with corporate representatives.  Why? 
> Because corporate culture tends to set extensive taboos around all the 
> ethical and social questions that arise from these subjects when you 
> discuss them in the context of OSM.  
> 
> If anyone could point me to any communication or writing from the 
> corporate domain about use of either automated techniques or 
> organized/paid mapping in OSM that seriously discusses the ethical and 
> social questions that arise from it please do so.
> 
> If and when this happens then we can have a rational discussion.
> 
> -- 
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Naveen Francis]

Including my ₹ 0.10 (Indian ten paisa)

Echoes same thoughts of Brazilian Real.

AI-assisted human mapping tools will be a good aid for the OSM community.

"Map faster, Map better".

40,00,000 kms to be mapped in India.
15 years of OSM mapped 18,00,000 kms.

thanks,
naveenpf


On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:42 AM Sérgio V.  wrote:

> Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
> I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be a very
> good help.
> But I can't evaluate what's been publicized July 23, 2019 by
>
> https://ai.facebook.com/blog/mapping-roads-through-deep-learning-and-weakly-supervised-training
> "To browse our machine learning road predictions or start mapping with
> RapiD, please visit mapwith.ai."
> So at "Map faster, Map better" https://mapwith.ai/#14/6.13864/6.7698 ,
> I actually can't evaluate any result for roads at max zoom level 14, to
> see if it's really better. I can just believe it can be.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 26 July 2019, stevea wrote:
> [...]
> However, does that mean that "nice tech" is tech which SHOULD be
> applied to OSM?  Some (Frederik, others) say no, or perhaps holds his
> nose as he watches it happen anyway.  Others, who might make an
> argument that applied AI tech has similar (economic) incentives to be
> applied to OSM in the same way that companies who rely on OSM (there
> are many) pay mappers to improve OSM's data for their corporate
> interests, have a point.  [...]
> I believe we can discuss this rationally.

I think none of the critics of corporate appropriation and exploitation 
of OSM here is opposed to rational discussion.  I have had plenty of 
valuable discussions on use of automated techniques in geodata 
analysis - both in the OSM context and outside of it.  But in the OSM 
context these never happened with corporate representatives.  Why? 
Because corporate culture tends to set extensive taboos around all the 
ethical and social questions that arise from these subjects when you 
discuss them in the context of OSM.  

If anyone could point me to any communication or writing from the 
corporate domain about use of either automated techniques or 
organized/paid mapping in OSM that seriously discusses the ethical and 
social questions that arise from it please do so.

If and when this happens then we can have a rational discussion.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

I recall reading an article "The paid mappers are coming!" several years back, 
it seemed to alarm many, though it didn't spell the end of OSM.  Now we have 
"the applied intelligence is here!" doing much the same thing (being poorly 
introduced into the consciousness of our community, tripping alarms that we 
volunteer humans are losing control, etc.).

I took FB's AI tech for a spin and proclaimed it "nice" (after the rather badly 
botched article by the BBC sparked this discussion).  However, does that mean 
that "nice tech" is tech which SHOULD be applied to OSM?  Some (Frederik, 
others) say no, or perhaps holds his nose as he watches it happen anyway.  
Others, who might make an argument that applied AI tech has similar (economic) 
incentives to be applied to OSM in the same way that companies who rely on OSM 
(there are many) pay mappers to improve OSM's data for their corporate 
interests, have a point.  There are Adam Smith ("invisible hand") forces at 
work that will (and do) cause such trends to not only happen in our project, 
but accelerate.  However, consider this very basic tenet of ours:  we have 
every right (as with imports, for example) to insist upon high quality data 
entering OSM.  Should an import, an AI, even an individual contributor enter 
poor quality data, we can, do and should say and do something about that.  OSM 
is "self-healing" in many regards:  it can take time and much back-and-forth, 
but on the whole, our data improve, and become high quality over the 
longer-term.  (Sometimes, it's one step backwards before we take two forwards, 
that does happen).

Rather than take sides (especially if polar opposites, especially as we try to 
avoid ad hominem attacks) I believe we can discuss this rationally.  Whether 
here or elsewhere, AI in OSM, like paid mappers in OSM, are here now and part 
of our future, whether we like it or not.  I believe the best we can do as 
volunteer humans who conscientiously guide our project forward and keep it true 
to its roots and tenets is to MANAGE these trends as best we can.  Some suggest 
that LWG and others determine whether or not FB is true to its agreements, 
that's a start (yes, as mentioned, FB doesn't have a good track record at being 
a good citizen w.r.t. keeping its promises).  Yet it is only a start and much 
more will need doing.

We can differ in opinion, disagree and even dissent (and all are normal in a 
project of millions) but we show how strong a project we are as we urge OSM 
forward with clarity when faced with confusion and decisiveness when faced with 
division.  As difficult as those are to achieve, they are the way forward.

Should "the press" report poorly, let's call them on it.  Should a company 
(whether a corporate sponsor of OSM or not) map poorly, let's call them on it.  
Should anybody applying AI (ditto) map poorly, let's call them on it.  The 
ultimate arbiter should be the quality of our data.  Should we ever give up on 
insisting that our data be as top-quality as humanly (heh) possible, we will 
lose all that is good about OSM.

SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/07/2019 11:54, Mike N wrote:

On 7/26/2019 4:34 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap


I'm not a corporate wonk, but I'll note that in my region, "Amazon 
Logistics" is effectively solving the Last Mile Mapping problem: how 
to include driveways into routing.

...


  [ I'm well aware that the Amazon mappers are not perfect and have 
made newbie errors in other regions ]


That's an excellent comparison to make.  One key difference is that 
Amazon's mappers have been very reactive when it was made clear to them 
that the way that they were mapping things with (in the UK) incorrect 
access tags, and have since tried to ensure that they're doing it right 
(see e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322 ).  
There will still be issues - Amazon's mappers are working with GPS 
traces and imagery, but no local knowledge, so they will get things 
wrong, but if everyone works together the combination of local mappers' 
local knowledge and Amazon's mappers' willingness to spend hours adding 
otherwise boring service roads and farm tracks should be to everyone's 
benefit.


This is in stark contrast to Facebook's approach.  Again and again 
they've been told what their licence of OSM data requires them to do, 
and again and again they have not done it.  Again and again they were 
told that their mapping was garbage, and while they have improved the 
data quality of later additions (in Thailand) they have done nothing to 
clean up the existing mess - it was left for the community and/or the 
DWG to tidy up.


Unless you've been living under a rock, you'll be aware of Facebook's 
other corporate actions over the last year or so and the reputational 
damage that it has caused them (see e.g. 
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2019/07/ftc-imposes-5-billion-penalty-sweeping-new-privacy-restrictions 
).  That doesn't mean that individual people working for Facebook can't 
be nice people and some of the tools they create can't be useful, but it 
does mean that OSM needs to be careful that it's reputation isn't 
tarnished by being associated with a corporate pariah* such as Facebook.


A statement from the board (or the LWG, if the LWG is looking at it 
rather than the board) about the issues raised here by Nuno over the 
last few months would be a start - either "we believe that Facebook's 
OSM data usage is in compliance with the licence" or "we believe it 
isn't and are trying to change it".  The OSMF has made a decision to 
have Facebook as one of 6 gold corporate members listed at 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members , so without any 
clarification an outside observer would think that the OSMF fully 
supports Facebook both in terms of data use and their "contributions" in 
e.g. Egypt and Thailand, and approves of the use of OSM's brand to 
bolster Facebook's excremental reputation.


Best Regards,

Andy

(writing, as is usual on this list, in an entirely personal capacity)

* far from the only example, of course, and even some organisations set 
up "purely to do good" have struggled with reputational management 
recently - see e.g. 
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jun/11/oxfam-abuse-claims-haiti-charity-commission-report 
.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Frederik Ramm]

Mikel,

On 26.07.19 11:49, Mikel Maron wrote:
> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I
> am not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm
> writing this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM,
> rather than a comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever
> conclusions about me you like.

But you are a rare exception. You were "in OSM" long before it was
economically fashionable. And I guess that if you were to quit your job
tomorrow and go herding sheep in New Zealand, you would still be doing
something with OSM.

When Christoph and I speak of corporate appropriation, we think of
organisations encroaching OSM without any interest other than their own
commercial goals. We think of people who do this *purely* as a job and
who will immediately quit if their employer tasks them with something else.

OSM, by itself, does not need anyone to "turbocharge mapping". This is
purely a concept driven by the commercial motives of Facebook et al; OSM
didn't scale up quickly enough for them because OSM valued first-hand
contributions from hobbyists on the ground. And you know how global
capitalism works these days - it depends on exploiting people in one
part of the world to produce stuff for people elsewhere. Almost every
rule-violating import or mass edit these days is done by low-paid,
exploited workers somewhere in Asia or South America on behalf of US
American companies. And now Facebook gives us another tool whereby
someone with money in country A can pay a poor person in country B a few
peanuts to add a couple thousand roads in country C because that's where
they want to develop new business or whatever.

One thing that Karl Marx was banging on about with regards to Capitalism
was the concept of "alienation". I don't agree with many of his ideas
but I do kind of buy this idea, that people are disenfranchised by
capitalism driving a wedge between the worker and their product. Where
we used to have craftspeople who made a thing and sold it, we now had
people who just add a little thing to something on a conveyour belt and
never get to see the final product.

This is what happens with this "turbocharged" mapping. We used to have
mappers survey and add something, and be the author of it. Facebook and
Co are edging us towards a situation where most of the map will be made
by exploited micro-taskers with the help of AI. Nobody will have the
pride of ownership any more; people will be alienated from the map.

I really struggle to see anything good in this whole project, even if it
didn't come from Facebook and even if it weren't crassly over-sold to
the press. I think that we are allowing corporate interests to take over
the soul of OpenStreetMap, wring it dry, and spit it out in a couple of
years when they find something else to play with.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mike N]

On 7/26/2019 4:34 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap


I'm not a corporate wonk, but I'll note that in my region, "Amazon 
Logistics" is effectively solving the Last Mile Mapping problem: how to 
include driveways into routing.Based on ground truth, they're 
including travel barriers, as well as other routes hidden under tree 
cover.   There's no official data on driveways and it is impractical if 
not dangerous to randomly walk or drive up private driveways to map them.


  Eventually, I'll be able to propose the use of an OSM app to local 
Emergency Services who just recently noted that their response time 
suffers as they attempt to find the proper driveway to enter, as well as 
navigate the correct split driveway.


  [ I'm well aware that the Amazon mappers are not perfect and have 
made newbie errors in other regions ]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

>"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salarydepends 
>upon his not understanding it." 
Ok it's a pithy quote. Is it possible that however well written, this quote may 
not always be right? that it's difficult but not impossible to get a man or 
woman to understand something, despite their position? and that my salary does 
not depend on me avoiding thinking freely about this project?
Seeing that none of you arguing with me in this thread know me personally, I 
think it's extremely presumptuous that you think you understand me.
> I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed.
Is it unfair that Christoph accuses me of being in a cult?
I did not accuse Christoph of being uninformed. But the general argument here 
certainly is -- about the capability of people involved in OSM in a corporate 
way having no ability to think in another frame; or that even the corporate 
frame can not encompass other viewpoints, only profit.
-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Friday, July 26, 2019, 01:18:11 PM GMT+3, Joseph Eisenberg 
 wrote:  
 
 The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to become
governor of California in the 1930's:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young man.

> "enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines"

I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed. From what
I've read over the past year, he appears to be one of the few
individuals who are informed about the goings-on between the OSMF
board and corporations, who is not actually a member of either body.

On 7/26/19, Mikel Maron  wrote:
>
> From Christoph...
>> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community
>> has meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong
>> doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are  fully immersed into the
>> belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is  of benefit in most cases.
> Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I
> could say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed
> representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same
> conclusion, almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these
> topics with you people here. But where would that get us?
> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am
> not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing
> this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a
> comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about
> me you like.
> For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed
> lines.
> From Martin...> Fakeboosts
> good one :)
>> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
>> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
>> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
> Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say
> that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all
> here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization.
> Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF
> should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of
> OSM.
> -Mikel
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>    On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
>
>  @mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of
> the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official
> OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their
> company name):
>
>
> “The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping
> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this
> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler
> Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which
> aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."
>
>
> and
>
>
> The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to
> RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a
> development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
>
> I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
> collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working"
> (labor) together, not just providing funds)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> 

Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 26 July 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to
> become governor of California in the 1930's:
>
> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
> depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See
> https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/
>
> Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young
> man.

Ah, thanks - that is indeed the likely origin.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to become
governor of California in the 1930's:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young man.

> "enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines"

I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed. From what
I've read over the past year, he appears to be one of the few
individuals who are informed about the goings-on between the OSMF
board and corporations, who is not actually a member of either body.

On 7/26/19, Mikel Maron  wrote:
>
> From Christoph...
>> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community
>> has meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong
>> doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are  fully immersed into the
>> belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is  of benefit in most cases.
> Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I
> could say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed
> representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same
> conclusion, almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these
> topics with you people here. But where would that get us?
> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am
> not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing
> this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a
> comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about
> me you like.
> For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed
> lines.
> From Martin...> Fakeboosts
> good one :)
>> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
>> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
>> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
> Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say
> that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all
> here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization.
> Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF
> should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of
> OSM.
> -Mikel
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
> On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
>
>  @mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of
> the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official
> OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their
> company name):
>
>
> “The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping
> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this
> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler
> Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which
> aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."
>
>
> and
>
>
> The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to
> RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a
> development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
>
> I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
> collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working"
> (labor) together, not just providing funds)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Martin
>
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings 
of the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part 
of the OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.


Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did 
not say that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing 
correctly. We all here get the difference and understand that HOT is a 
different organization. Making this distinction is not Facebook's 
problem, but rather HOT and OSMF should do a better job explaining the 
complexity of the whole universe of OSM.


I'm sure Facebook are not aware of it, like they are not Corporate 
members of OSMF. If they can't simple understand and comply with the 
attribution, it's sure a third party duty to elucidate outsiders of the 
OSM the differences between those two.


Also about the attribution, some of their maps (not all, some still do 
not have attribution) since yesterday are displaying this attribution 
after clicking on the "i" https://i.ibb.co/mvxRgg4/facebook.jpg . Can 
someone explain them that the required attribution is “© OpenStreetMap 
contributors” and not “© OpenStreetMap”. There's plenty of space to show 
it properly as "Report a problem with the map" is longer than “© 
OpenStreetMap contributors”. I would do it myself, but they stopped 
replying to my emails. Maybe they are not aware how to properly 
attribute, must be someone else's duty to explain.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

>From Christoph...
> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community has 
> meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong doubts 
> meanwhile that arguing with people who are  fully immersed into the belief 
> system of corporate PR regarding OSM is  of benefit in most cases.
Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I could 
say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed 
representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same conclusion, 
almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these topics with you 
people here. But where would that get us?
I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am not 
here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing this 
from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a 
comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about me 
you like.
For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines.
>From Martin...> Fakeboosts
good one :)
> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of the 
>OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the OSMF / 
>OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say 
that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all here 
get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization. Making 
this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF should do a 
better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of OSM.
-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:  
 
 @mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of the 
role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official OSM body 
(by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their company name):


“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping 
community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this tool 
was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler 
Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which aims 
to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."


and


The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to RapiD. 
For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a development 
branch of HOT Tasking Manager, 








Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of the 
OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the OSMF / 
OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.

I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in 
collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working" 
(labor) together, not just providing funds)


Cheers,


Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

@mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of
the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official
OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their
company name):

“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping
> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this
> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says
> Tyler Radford, the *executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team
> (HOT), which aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."*
>
and

> The *Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT* to add more features to
> RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a 
> development
> branch  of HOT Tasking Manager
> ,
>


Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.

I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means
"working" (labor) together, not just providing funds)

Cheers,

Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

i share the thoughts and concerns shared by Christoph. It's not 
surprisingly that most of these companies are "tied" or are 
client/service providers of each other, some are even Corporate members 
of OSMF. Who would bite the hand the feeds?


Blaming third party media outlets, when Facebook article title is "AI is 
supercharging the creation of maps around the world" says a lot. What 
maps? Bit of misleading title oh well, not clear enough. #options


Also the video they have on the article shows in the end the 
attribution. Funnily uploaded on Vimeo, that regarding this 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-July/082927.html 
replied me yesterday mentioning they are having an investigation between 
their engineers and their legal department to add the attribution on the 
map on their LiveStream platform hope it does not take as long as 
the steam engine speed legal dept of facebook that still hasn't figured 
out since October what to do about the attribution as when they replied 
to me in October 2018, as reported here 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082702.html


For a *tv, film or video production*, the attribution should typically 
appear in a corner of the map. *As long as the credit is on screen 
long enough to be read*, it does not have to remain in view during 
panning or zooming. For productions with end credits, *we would also 
welcome a credit there*


from 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#Where_to_put_it.3F




Às 09:34 de 26/07/2019, Christoph Hormann escreveu:

On Friday 26 July 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.

And in that conflict in my eyes you can see the core of the problem.
The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community has
meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult.  You can see in the
reactions of corporate representatives here - as well as in other cases
where corporate PR misrepresenting OSM is presented, see for example
the comments to the Facebook diary entry that has been linked to or in
the discussion with the Thailand community, that many of them are so
detached from the reality of the hobby mapper community and
non-corporate data users that functional communication is essentially
not possible any more.

I have no solution for this - at least none that works within OSM alone.
But i have strong doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are
fully immersed into the belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is
of benefit in most cases.  This in itself is a pretty frightening
realization.

There is a famous saying (not sure of its origin) - that fits pretty
well here:  It is hard to make people understand something if their
livelihood depends on not understanding it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 26 July 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
> disgusting.

And in that conflict in my eyes you can see the core of the problem.  
The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community has 
meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult.  You can see in the 
reactions of corporate representatives here - as well as in other cases 
where corporate PR misrepresenting OSM is presented, see for example 
the comments to the Facebook diary entry that has been linked to or in 
the discussion with the Thailand community, that many of them are so 
detached from the reality of the hobby mapper community and 
non-corporate data users that functional communication is essentially 
not possible any more.

I have no solution for this - at least none that works within OSM alone.  
But i have strong doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are 
fully immersed into the belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is 
of benefit in most cases.  This in itself is a pretty frightening 
realization.

There is a famous saying (not sure of its origin) - that fits pretty 
well here:  It is hard to make people understand something if their 
livelihood depends on not understanding it.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

This is just another badly written article by a third party. As someone else on 
thread said, hardly the first time a media piece gets OSM wrong.
Take a look at facebook’s own words here 
https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/
I’m sure there’s plenty of phrases in FB’s own post to get worked about, if 
you’re looking for things to flame Facebook and the entire corporate world 
about. 
Myself, I like what they’re doing.
Mikel

On Friday, July 26, 2019, 10:47 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

Hi,

On 25.07.19 22:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
> OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago.

In case anyone doubts that -

https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/07/facebook-ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world.html

"Recently, Facebook released a statement about its new effort to create
an OpenStreetMap project to not only benefit from mapping data but also
making this platform an open-source navigational source for users."

And the rest of the article is about how Facebook's only purpose is to
bring comfort to people's lives etc.

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 25.07.19 22:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
> OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago.

In case anyone doubts that -

https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/07/facebook-ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world.html

"Recently, Facebook released a statement about its new effort to create
an OpenStreetMap project to not only benefit from mapping data but also
making this platform an open-source navigational source for users."

And the rest of the article is about how Facebook's only purpose is to
bring comfort to people's lives etc.

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Sérgio V .]

Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be a very good 
help.
But I can't evaluate what's been publicized July 23, 2019 by
https://ai.facebook.com/blog/mapping-roads-through-deep-learning-and-weakly-supervised-training
"To browse our machine learning road predictions or start mapping with RapiD, 
please visit mapwith.ai."
So at "Map faster, Map better" https://mapwith.ai/#14/6.13864/6.7698 ,
I actually can't evaluate any result for roads at max zoom level 14, to see if 
it's really better. I can just believe it can be.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

I would like to publicly, sincerely thank Martijn for saying that here.
SteveA

> On Jul 25, 2019, at 7:26 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> 
> I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it 
> a go and shared my observations with them.
> Martijn
> 
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:16 PM, stevea  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 7/25/19 17:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> so it is an official OpenStreetMap effort, the OpenStreetMap-Foundation
> is involved, and this is their statement? This is the impression I would
> get from reading this paragraph without background information.

No it is not. This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago. It would be nice if our
communications working group had the capacity of rectifying such
misinformation, or if companies could simply treat us more fairly in
their never-ending quest for attention, but both are unlikely to happen.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

I also tried it out after Drishtie's post, and was impressed with many of the 
considerations in the process. The team developing this is indeed very open to 
feedback and have iterated a lot. I had also been watching this work as it 
moved alongside great strides in quality checks in iD. Deliberate open work to 
apply ML where it can be useful -> aiding human mappers, is the name of the 
game. Recommend to all to check it out directly.
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Thursday, July 25, 2019, 05:29:17 PM GMT+3, Martijn van Exel 
 wrote:  
 
 I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it a 
go and shared my observations with them.
Martijn

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:16 PM, stevea  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Jul 2019, at 15:42, Nuno Caldeira  wrote:
> 
> "“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping 
> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this 
> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” said Tyler 
> Radford,executive director of the humanitarian OpenStreetMap team."


so it is an official OpenStreetMap effort, the OpenStreetMap-Foundation is 
involved, and this is their statement? This is the impression I would get from 
reading this paragraph without background information.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martijn van Exel]

I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it a 
go and shared my observations with them.
Martijn

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:16 PM, stevea  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

https://venturebeat.com/2019/07/23/facebook-speeds-up-mapping-data-validation-with-machine-learning-tools-map-with-ai-and-rapid/

"Facebook says that the mapping data validated by Map With AI — which will
be publicly available — might help to inform disaster urban planning and
development projects, and to improve Facebook products that use
OpenStreetMap like Marketplace, Local, and Pages."

oh the wonders! so what Facebook products are using OSM data? I don't see
the attribution or notice of OSM being used. can someone pinpoint me of
such? I have tried, but can't find it.

"“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping
community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this
tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” said
Tyler Radford,executive director of the humanitarian OpenStreetMap team."

so HOT is behind this too?

" Above: Visualization of the geographic distribution of training data for
the road segmentation

model.
Image Credit: Facebook"

oh... they have added road data in Europe or just the training? haven't
seen that. lovely it's credited to Facebook


A quarta, 24/07/2019, 23:08, stevea  escreveu:

> Sure, James.  I'm simply calling this as I see it here, in context, with
> an appropriate audience.
> SteveA
>
> > On Jul 24, 2019, at 3:02 PM, James  wrote:
> >
> > News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.I
> can't think of one example of this ever happening in the history pf the
> planet
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 09:07:01PM +0100, Nuno Caldeira wrote:
> so grateful of "The project is a collaboration with OpenStreetMap (OSM)". I
> might have missed the announcement, can anyone pinpoint me the link of such
> collaboration being announced?
> Hope they find some spare time in the future to add the attribution on the
> maps on their website and apps. #priorities

They had a talk about this in Milano at the SoTM - And IIRC it was about a
collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
was.

You might want to check the video on their talk last year.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

Sure, James.  I'm simply calling this as I see it here, in context, with an 
appropriate audience.
SteveA

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 3:02 PM, James  wrote:
> 
> News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.I can't 
> think of one example of this ever happening in the history pf the planet


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[James]

News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.I
can't think of one example of this ever happening in the history pf the
planet



p.s. I dropped this: */s*

On Wed., Jul. 24, 2019, 5:32 p.m. stevea,  wrote:

> An article such as that proposed by John would almost be a master's thesis
> if done correctly and would likely put the typical BBC reader to sleep.
> Such an article would suffer from the constraints of concision typical in
> mainstream Western media, which means simply the topics would not receive
> the depth they deserve.  Such an article would need to address the history
> of OSM, the history of AI in OSM and its failures and successes (some of
> both, plenty of the former) and any attempt to "take the temperature" of
> "we in OSM" who feel one way or another about AI as a process for data
> entry would be almost horrifically complex in its vast spectrum of
> opinions.  This is not something, I suspect, editors at the BBC would find
> makes for interesting reading.  Unfortunately, what appears to be a
> sensationalistic, poorly researched, short, punchy story that sounds like
> "Facebook to the rescue of mapping in developing countries with AI!" is
> something an editor will (and did, apparently) green light.
>
> I do agree that the article seems quite glib in its treatment of the
> topic:  though to me it makes it sound like Facebook has magic bullets that
> can and will solve the challenges of the hard work of mapping, when we
> (humans in OSM) who do map know better (while AI is powerful and can help
> solve certain problems, it most certainly isn't a magic bullet).  I'd call
> the article an unfortunate example in the typical concision found in major
> news outlets which sensationalizes what is a relatively minor improvement
> by a company (Facebook) whose mere mention in an article is almost
> guaranteed to generate readership / eyeballs.  It is sad to see this
> obvious seduction and that many fall for it, but fortunately, a wise person
> once reminded us "you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
>
> SteveA
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

An article such as that proposed by John would almost be a master's thesis if 
done correctly and would likely put the typical BBC reader to sleep.  Such an 
article would suffer from the constraints of concision typical in mainstream 
Western media, which means simply the topics would not receive the depth they 
deserve.  Such an article would need to address the history of OSM, the history 
of AI in OSM and its failures and successes (some of both, plenty of the 
former) and any attempt to "take the temperature" of "we in OSM" who feel one 
way or another about AI as a process for data entry would be almost 
horrifically complex in its vast spectrum of opinions.  This is not something, 
I suspect, editors at the BBC would find makes for interesting reading.  
Unfortunately, what appears to be a sensationalistic, poorly researched, short, 
punchy story that sounds like "Facebook to the rescue of mapping in developing 
countries with AI!" is something an editor will (and did, apparently) green 
light.

I do agree that the article seems quite glib in its treatment of the topic:  
though to me it makes it sound like Facebook has magic bullets that can and 
will solve the challenges of the hard work of mapping, when we (humans in OSM) 
who do map know better (while AI is powerful and can help solve certain 
problems, it most certainly isn't a magic bullet).  I'd call the article an 
unfortunate example in the typical concision found in major news outlets which 
sensationalizes what is a relatively minor improvement by a company (Facebook) 
whose mere mention in an article is almost guaranteed to generate readership / 
eyeballs.  It is sad to see this obvious seduction and that many fall for it, 
but fortunately, a wise person once reminded us "you can't fool all of the 
people all of the time."

SteveA

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

The BBC article is missing a lot of context and details. The actual
Facebook post -
https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/
- notes both the importance of human mappers and the local community's
on-the-ground contributions, and states "We became close collaborators with
the OSM community during our work in Thailand", quite different than the
BBC's statement.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 2:17 PM john whelan  wrote:

> My personal view is I think using AI to identify potential highways and
> buildings is fine but there needs to be a process that includes manual
> review.
>
> Basically the import process.
>
> I think my concern was more the idea in the article that suggests OSM
> welcomes AI mapping and by implication conventional mappers were no longer
> required.  This may impact HOT mapathons by the way if people feel that
> needn't bother mapping, the AI will do it all.
>
> Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and emphasize
> the community aspect of OSM.  It is summer so news apart from Boris is thin
> on the ground so it might well be an opportune time to get a bit of
> publicity for OpenStreetMap.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 4:57 PM Andy Townsend,  wrote:
>
>> On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:
>> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
>> >
>> > I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.
>>
>> I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask
>> some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g.
>> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection
>> of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without
>> it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.
>>
>> I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with
>> complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from
>> that "article" takes you straight to
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG
>> have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping"
>> from the likes of Facebook et al.
>>
>> To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that
>> organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being
>> entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early
>> attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful:
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone
>> who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a
>> textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have
>> been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by
>> reading the Thai forum threads.
>>
>> Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths;
>> although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of
>> changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read
>> before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up
>> and actually try communicating with other people*.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> (a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel"
>> Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely
>> personal capacity)
>>
>> * for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller
>> company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/07/2019 22:15, john whelan wrote:
Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and 
emphasize the community aspect of OSM.


Yes - you can do that yourself at 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ , or maybe try the link 
from 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1WbP92b6YbpP9j4mwwbtc9Q/contact-us 
.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

to be honest I dont find anything about the collaboration.
about they being a corporate member and to be caution to what we say, i
this this sums it up when they dont:
Foundation and community expectations
We expect Corporate Members to conduct themselves as good citizens of the
OpenStreetMap ecosystem, e.g. by complying with our attribution
requirements (Licence and Legal FAQ), following good editing practice and
adhering to the community's guidelines, such as the Licence/Community
Guidelines and the Organised Editing Guidelines.

 as written as https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members

what a example of a corporate member we have!

unless Facebook has a some sort of exception within OSMF, that im not
aware.

A quarta, 24/07/2019, 21:54, Martin Koppenhoefer 
escreveu:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 24. Jul 2019, at 22:16, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> >
> > I think it's a unilateral self-declared collaboration ;-)
>
>
> We should be cautious with this, they are a corporate member and on the
> advisory board, so clearly there is some documented kind of collaboration,
> or at least it looks as if (hardly anybody outside of OpenStreetMap and
> maybe also not so many inside of OpenStreetMap will be able to estimate the
> importance of this entity), and by suggesting they are contributing AI
> generated data it may look as if a lot of OpenStreetMap data came through
> processes like this rather than local people contributing their knowledge.
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[john whelan]

My personal view is I think using AI to identify potential highways and
buildings is fine but there needs to be a process that includes manual
review.

Basically the import process.

I think my concern was more the idea in the article that suggests OSM
welcomes AI mapping and by implication conventional mappers were no longer
required.  This may impact HOT mapathons by the way if people feel that
needn't bother mapping, the AI will do it all.

Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and emphasize
the community aspect of OSM.  It is summer so news apart from Boris is thin
on the ground so it might well be an opportune time to get a bit of
publicity for OpenStreetMap.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 4:57 PM Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
> >
> > I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.
>
> I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask
> some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g.
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection
> of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without
> it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.
>
> I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with
> complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from
> that "article" takes you straight to
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG
> have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping"
> from the likes of Facebook et al.
>
> To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that
> organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being
> entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early
> attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful:
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone
> who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a
> textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have
> been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by
> reading the Thai forum threads.
>
> Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths;
> although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of
> changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read
> before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up
> and actually try communicating with other people*.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> (a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel"
> Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely
> personal capacity)
>
> * for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller
> company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093

I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted. 


I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask 
some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g. 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection 
of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without 
it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.


I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with 
complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from 
that "article" takes you straight to 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG 
have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping" 
from the likes of Facebook et al.


To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that 
organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being 
entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early 
attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful: 
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone 
who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a 
textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have 
been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by 
reading the Thai forum threads.


Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths; 
although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of 
changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read 
before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up 
and actually try communicating with other people*.


Best Regards,

Andy

(a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel" 
Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely 
personal capacity)


* for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller 
company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jul 2019, at 22:16, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> 
> I think it's a unilateral self-declared collaboration ;-)


We should be cautious with this, they are a corporate member and on the 
advisory board, so clearly there is some documented kind of collaboration, or 
at least it looks as if (hardly anybody outside of OpenStreetMap and maybe also 
not so many inside of OpenStreetMap will be able to estimate the importance of 
this entity), and by suggesting they are contributing AI generated data it may 
look as if a lot of OpenStreetMap data came through processes like this rather 
than local people contributing their knowledge.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Tom Hughes]

I think it's a unilateral self-declared collaboration ;-)

Tom

On 24/07/2019 21:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:
so grateful of "The project is a collaboration with OpenStreetMap 
(OSM)". I might have missed the announcement, can anyone pinpoint me the 
link of such collaboration being announced?
Hope they find some spare time in the future to add the attribution on 
the maps on their website and apps. #priorities


A quarta, 24/07/2019, 20:59, John Whelan > escreveu:


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093

Did I miss a discussion on the subject or an announcement from
Fredrick on this?

I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

Many Thanks

Cheerio John
-- 
Sent from Postbox 

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--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[stevea]

I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not, I'm not sure if the BBC reporter 
was spoofed, I'm not sure what "Map with AI" is (a front, cover or shell 
company for Facebook or one of its many arms?), I'm simply not sure about 
virtually everything regarding this story.  It seems like a meme planted by 
Facebook to see what sort of reaction it would draw, but that is a guess, as I 
can gain no useful information from this reporting whatsoever.  I'm very, very 
skeptical about everything to do with it.

If your "media criticism meter" didn't "peg into the red zone" when reading 
this, perhaps it should have.  Something smells absolutely terrible about this 
and on many fronts.  Please be cautious about everything having anything to do 
with it.

Simply my opinion,
SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Nuno Caldeira]

so grateful of "The project is a collaboration with OpenStreetMap (OSM)". I
might have missed the announcement, can anyone pinpoint me the link of such
collaboration being announced?
Hope they find some spare time in the future to add the attribution on the
maps on their website and apps. #priorities

A quarta, 24/07/2019, 20:59, John Whelan  escreveu:

> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
>
> Did I miss a discussion on the subject or an announcement from Fredrick on
> this?
>
> I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Cheerio John
> --
> Sent from Postbox 
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