Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Courtney]

Hi, all,

Just jumping back into this thread with a link to a diary post about the
Comms Survey and the Comms project in general.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/courtiney/diary/401468

As I mentioned before, we are presenting at SotM US on the 9th and will
post a follow-up to that sometime shortly after.

Over in the community forum, Arnalie Vicario mentioned two possible next
actions: 1) documenting survey best practices and 2) having BoF discussion
about this in Richmond; I like both ideas, particularly if the data can
guide us in the approach. There is a lot that can be done and maybe we
could work asynchronously and together at SotM EU, Asia and Africa.

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/survey-about-osm-communication-behaviors/98460/15

--Courtney

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 6:36 PM Courtney 
wrote:

> Just to tie up a few of the loose ends.
>
> Nothing that anyone has said has been dismissed or downgraded as merely
> "pushback."  This has all been very instructive for me and I've learned a
> lot.
>
> In the first post, Marjan described the companies and roles of the folks
> to whom I'm referring to as my "team."
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2023-April/088217.html
>
> These three folks are former colleagues since I used to work at TomTom.
> Now, I am a strategic communications consultant and a writer. I still
> volunteer for the CWG, and I'm also consulting a bit with the OSMF on its
> fundraising.  Even though I'm not with TomTom anymore, I am still
> interested in the communications data project, so I have continued to work
> on it as a volunteer. We are presenting at SotMUS in June. We are in the
> 4:30pm slot on Friday.  https://2023.stateofthemap.us/schedule/
>
> I don't see any way to have avoided saying that Marjan and I volunteer for
> the CWG because it's relevant to the study. Being on the CWG helped us
> understand more about how OSM communicates and gave us the idea to study
> the channel and forum data. It also gives me a way to volunteer within the
> community since I'm not a GIS expert or software engineer.
>
> I think this covers everything? If not, let me know.
>
> Don't forget to take the survey!
> https://osmf.limequery.org/875881?lang=en (There is a bit more about the
> project in the introduction)
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 4:27 PM John Whelan  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Courtney wrote on 5/3/2023 4:00 PM:
>> Compare a statement like this:
>>
>>  "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful,
>> here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"
>>
>> to a statement like this:
>>
>>  "I am disappointed to yet again see someone doing this wrong and
>> ignoring the requests of the community"
>>
>>
>> There is a difference in the level of language proficiency needed to use
>> the first sentence so you're asking a great deal of people using a second
>> language to use that level of proficiency.
>> This might be appropriate for easing people into a new situation  but I
>> think you also have to take into account that technical people and there
>> are many here usually are more direct , blunt if you like.
>>
>> How would you rephrase Fredrick's post by the way?  I may have missed
>> your answer.
>>
>> Can you clarify who "your team" in this context is? You were introduced
>> in Marjan's initial post as "OSMF Communication Working Group Member" and
>> were the only of four names without a TomTom affiliation. You are posting
>> this neither from an OSMF nor from a TomTom address but from a gmail one.
>>
>> Is "your team" a corporate TomTom endeavour? Is it the OSMF
>> Communications working group? Or...?
>>
>> Unclear affiliations are a problem, as I pointed out in this thread a few
>> days ago. Has everything I said been filed away under "pushback" and
>> ignored?
>>
>> Many Thanks
>>
>> Cheerio John
>> --
>> Sent from Postbox 
>>
>
>
> --
>
> --Courtney Cook Williamson
> survivalbybook.substack.com
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 19:03 2023-05-03, Imre Samu đã viết:
In addition to this, new OSM community members should be prepared for 
the potential culture shock they may encounter, especially those who 
come from a top-down corporate environment. It's important to remember 
that OpenStreetMap is characterized by a bazaar-style, bottom-up 
communication approach, which may be an adjustment for some. Embracing 
this unique aspect of the community will help newcomers adapt and thrive 
in the OSM environment.


In fact, this is a big topic, and when I consider the OSM community 
problems from the past few years through the viewpoint of cultural 
differences, it gives me a good understanding of the reasons.


First of all, I appreciate that you're avoiding the pitfall of 
suggesting a technical solution for a social problem.  ;-)


Maybe you're right that we should all build character and develop 
thicker skins. But there are alternative communication channels that 
don't place this burden on newcomers, not to mention alternatives to OSM 
that are competing for people's limited leisure time. After all, this is 
a mailing list in service of the OSM project, not the other way around.


Most of the Americans I've introduced to OSM are enthusiasts and curious 
onlookers who have never experienced a top-down corporate environment. 
They *expect* an egalitarian model. Yet I would hesitate to throw them 
into any of the larger mailing lists. There's too much office politics, 
too many hidden red lines to cross by accident. If a topic doesn't 
result in a pile-on, it is met with silence or peters out without consensus.


If we had a comprehensive how-to guide on the wiki about effective 
persuasion on the mailing lists, maybe the mailing lists would look a 
little more attractive -- or just difficult. Otherwise, you all wouldn't 
appreciate Eternal September anyways.


Generally, the OSM Talks mailing list is characterized by *"deep-level 
diversity," and as a result, more productive conflicts are expected than 
usual,* which is normal based on some diversity research [3]. This means 
that diverse perspectives and experiences can lead to more engaging 
discussions and ultimately result in innovative solutions and ideas for 
the community.


What about the inverse? If an OSM communication channel doesn't 
experience the same degree of conflict, does that necessarily mean it 
lacks the depth of diversity found here on the mailing lists, or is 
there some other relevant factor?


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Adam Franco]

Spot on, Greg!

If this was Discourse I'd just leave a heart emoji, but since I have to
type a reply anyway, I'd like to address some components of what makes
communication civil and collaborative:
1. Assume positive intent until proven otherwise.
2. Don't assume that the reader's background knowledge and context is the
same as yours.

I believe that these transcend any American/German cultural differences.
There are other components as well I'm sure, but if we violate either of
these in our writing, then our messages we come off as uncooperative at
best.

Both writers and readers need to keep these in mind, though I believe that
the writer has a more immediate responsibility to show the intent of their
words, especially if they want to be understood by a global audience.


On Thu, May 4, 2023, 8:46 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> "Brian M. Sperlongano"  writes:
>
> > I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the
> mailing
> > lists as "cultural differences". I can think of several German
> participants
> > on Slack and Discord that dispel this stereotype.  Similarly, I can think
> > of several American commenters who are notoriously abrasive on the
> mailing
> > lists.
>
> +1 to Brian's comment.  Going further, I think a "we are having problems
> from cultural differences" is more than an over-simplification -- I
> think it is basically an incorrect conclusion.
>
> I lived in a dorm that had about 25% people from US/Canada (which I know
> aren't the same place but they aren't so far off culturally :-) and 75%
> from a very large number of other countries.  For a year I served as
> dorm president and thus had a clearer view of conflicts.  My experience
> was that people mostly got along, and when they didn't, it was almost
> always because some individuals were just fundamentally unkind and
> unreasonable.  It didn't matter what country they came from; I knew nice
> people and jerks from many countries (although nice or nice-enough
> people were the overwhelming majority).  Yes, there were some obvious
> differences in degree of directness, but those were not the problems.  I
> have seen this same pattern in the online world -- it is 90%+ about
> individuals and how they approach others, not about national culture.
>
> I have also participated in NetBSD, and there too most people try to
> work together to achieve project goals despite differences.  I can think
> of several problematic people over the years -- surely the same as any
> other project if you knew the details -- and for obvious reasons I won't
> give any details.  But I will say that I know which countries they are
> from, that I also know many people from those same countries that are
> courteous and constructive, and that I don't think the problems are
> about national culture -- they are firmly individual.
>
> So I would say that the biggest issue is that some people are just not
> trying to be collaborative and are the kind of basically unkind people
> that I would avoid entirely in offline life.  The second biggest issue
> is a practice of giving a very short blunt opinion with no willingness
> to try to communicate the subtleties -- and I mean this over the medium
> term, rather than condemning anyone for a single short email where they
> say what they think succinctly.
>
> As for strongly-held beliefs about licensing, I think that's perfectly
> ok.  (IMHO we believe in open data, and a lot flows from that ethically,
> but I realize not everybody sees it that way.)  I also don't see that as
> the core cause of uncivility.
>
> What we really need is for people to be at least civil if not
> courteous.  That can't really be done with rules; it can only be done in
> my experience by shunning a few individuals, and trying to lead by
> example.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Greg Troxel]

"Brian M. Sperlongano"  writes:

> I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the mailing
> lists as "cultural differences". I can think of several German participants
> on Slack and Discord that dispel this stereotype.  Similarly, I can think
> of several American commenters who are notoriously abrasive on the mailing
> lists.

+1 to Brian's comment.  Going further, I think a "we are having problems
from cultural differences" is more than an over-simplification -- I
think it is basically an incorrect conclusion.

I lived in a dorm that had about 25% people from US/Canada (which I know
aren't the same place but they aren't so far off culturally :-) and 75%
from a very large number of other countries.  For a year I served as
dorm president and thus had a clearer view of conflicts.  My experience
was that people mostly got along, and when they didn't, it was almost
always because some individuals were just fundamentally unkind and
unreasonable.  It didn't matter what country they came from; I knew nice
people and jerks from many countries (although nice or nice-enough
people were the overwhelming majority).  Yes, there were some obvious
differences in degree of directness, but those were not the problems.  I
have seen this same pattern in the online world -- it is 90%+ about
individuals and how they approach others, not about national culture.

I have also participated in NetBSD, and there too most people try to
work together to achieve project goals despite differences.  I can think
of several problematic people over the years -- surely the same as any
other project if you knew the details -- and for obvious reasons I won't
give any details.  But I will say that I know which countries they are
from, that I also know many people from those same countries that are
courteous and constructive, and that I don't think the problems are
about national culture -- they are firmly individual.

So I would say that the biggest issue is that some people are just not
trying to be collaborative and are the kind of basically unkind people
that I would avoid entirely in offline life.  The second biggest issue
is a practice of giving a very short blunt opinion with no willingness
to try to communicate the subtleties -- and I mean this over the medium
term, rather than condemning anyone for a single short email where they
say what they think succinctly.

As for strongly-held beliefs about licensing, I think that's perfectly
ok.  (IMHO we believe in open data, and a lot flows from that ethically,
but I realize not everybody sees it that way.)  I also don't see that as
the core cause of uncivility.

What we really need is for people to be at least civil if not
courteous.  That can't really be done with rules; it can only be done in
my experience by shunning a few individuals, and trying to lead by
example.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Manfred Reiter]

[...]

contexts:
> [1]
> *""According to Hofstede, a typical conversation in a German cultural
> context is characterized by a large degree of honesty, even if it hurts.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Consequently, Germans are perceived to be among the most direct
> communicators in the world (Yin, 2002).Presumably, the strategy “be honest
> even if it hurts” offers the other party the opportunity to understand and
> learn from possible mistakes.In a qualitative study, Yin (2002) explored
> the concept of  German wahrheit (truth), in terms of a German standard for
> communicating in public.She describes wahrheit as expressions of an
> individual’s personal opinions, using the first pronoun: “The wahrheit can
> be displayed in a manner that implicitly or explicitly indicates the
> rightness of one’s own opinion. In public talk, as one German informant put
> it, ‘Telling the wahrheit hurts a little bit, but it’s okay’” (Yin, 2002,
> p. 249).  As a result, frank and forthright discussion with open
> disagreement for the sake of the discussion is preferred" Indeed, not
> directly telling the wahrheit was perceived as hiding personal opinions or
> lying by the German participants in Yin’s (2002) studyAdditionally,
> Yin’s (2002) findings suggest that German and U.S.-American meetings might
> differ in terms of the frequency of counteractive meeting behaviors. Her
> finding that Germans were more outspoken, cared particularly for telling
> the honest truth (even if it hurts), and expected others to do so as well,
> could imply a higher tendency to show counteractive behavior. For example,
> complaining as one type of counteractive behavior can also be an expression
> of honest criticism of the current situation. Similarly, complaining can be
> used as a means to “vent” about the current situation of a team (cf.
> Lehmann-Willenbrock & Kauffeld, 2010). We argue that these behaviors will
> only occur if they are socially acceptable. According to Yin (2002), open
> and honest criticism is far more likely among Germans compared to
> U.S.-Americans."""*
> Observing Culture: Differences in U.S.-American and German Team Meeting
> Behaviors
> March 2014 Group Processes & Intergroup Relations 17(2):252-271
> DOI:10.1177/1368430213497066
> read more:
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260425358_Observing_Culture_Differences_in_US-American_and_German_Team_Meeting_Behaviors
>
>
> [2.]
> *"Generally speaking, Americans do not like to directly disagree with
> another person. They are more harmonious in negotiating and like to find a
> “Win-Win” solution. Therefore, Americans don’t usually use the word “No”.
> When disagreeing they may say, “I see your point, however you might want to
> consider…” or “Additionally, I would add…” or  “Perhaps we might want to
> look at this way…”*
>
>
>
> *Germans prefer to debate a point to find the best option, and this debate
> can be quite direct, and even hurtful for Americans. When Germans disagree
> they will start a sentence with, “No, I think…” or directly say, “I
> disagree.” Or even, ‘That idea doesn’t make any sense.’*
>
>
> *Americans interpret “No” as a blocking the conversation. It ends the
> conversation for them. As well as seeing it as rude and potentially harming
> the relationship. Germans interpret someone agreeing all the time as weak
> and not able to make a good point. “No” for Germans is making a good
> argument by offering another idea. But it does not necessarily mean they
> have made up their mind in a final manner. Additionally, the American
> subtle (positive) way of disagreeing is misunderstood by Germans and they
> can walk out of a meeting thinking they have agreement when they don’t.*
> *Another word that is different is “problem”. Germans use problem to
> describe any issue, concern, worry, difficulty, and obstacle or possible
> mistake. To an American’s ears everything is a problem to Germans and again
> they interpret this as a block to a solution. The word “problem” for an
> American is usually a crisis. It is something that may not be easily
> solvable. For a German a problem is something that can most likely be
> solved. It does not sound as negative to a German as to an American.
> Americans use “issue”, “concern”, “challenge”, or “opportunity” for the
> word “problem”. And in turn, these words may be confusing to the German who
> again may think there isn’t a problem."*
>
> read more:
> https://blogs.sap.com/2006/07/24/german-american-cooperation-unexpected-cultural-differences/
>
> [3.]
> "Team creativity/innovation in culturally diverse teams: A meta-analysis"
> First published: 27 February 2019 https://doi.org/10.1002/job.2362
> PDF: https://gwern.net/doc/sociology/technology/2019-wang.pdf
> *"This meta-analysis investigates the direction and strength of the
> relationship between diversity in culturally diverse teams and team
> creativity/innovation. We distinguish the effects of two diversity levels
> (i.e., surface level vs. deep level) in cultural

Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

Le 03.05.23 à 22:00, Courtney a écrit :
"I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful, 
here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"


to a statement like this:

  "I am disappointed to yet again see someone doing this wrong and 
ignoring the requests of the community"


In my writing world, this is a question of audience. The first version 
speaks to the person who posted. The second one speaks to all of the 
people who already know each other in the forum.  The first one is 
inherently inclusive. The second one excludes the newcomer from the 
conversation.


It's strange because I have the exact opposite feeling:

the first sentence is nominative, takes the person a little bit
down by saying "you're a beginner", decides he needs help, and
if on top of that it is wrong (because the other person is not
a beginner, maybe he was there under another name or just absent
for some time, or more active in the another list),
at best it provokes a feeling of "this remark is funny",
at worst it gives a feeling of misplaced paternalism and
nominative criticism.

the second sentence for me is about an act and not a person,
it expresses the feeling that a "issue" (=something to be improved) 
arises again.

in the end it may not even be the fault of the previous person,
it may just be that in this case there is no good practice guide
for community survey (exept the osmf view on it), or if there is one
it is not visible enough or the people involved have not looked for it.
who am I to know the cause of the other person's choice ? nobody
I may only expressing a *feeling* of what the situation does to me.
the other person may start listening to the criticism (= listening
to someone who thinks that something needs to be improved) or may
start thinking immediately "no, that's not true", as if the other 
person's feeling might not be true... when in reality, a person's 
feeling is supposed to be always true, it's only when/after you've

heard it that you can then (re)act

on this subject, i strongly like the method/philosophy of Jacques
Salomé [1] who in extreme summary says that we are each responsible
for our emotions and that when we are hurt by a comment, it is more 
constructive to look at what we do "inside us", rather than blaming

the other, we are not, for the most part, children who need to call
the teacher when a comment displeases us, especially given the cultural 
difference so well summarized in a previous message.

This cultural difference is not limited to be an usa-europe one.
In France for example, the same difference (if we caricature it) exists 
between people living in Paris and those living in the provinces...

with the same intercultural issue as in this thread.

[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Salom%C3%A9

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 2:08 PM Courtney 
wrote:

> It's valid to ask for more specifics. You're right that "combative" just
> ends up being an alienating word.
>
> Here's an example that I think everyone can benefit from.
>
> When I see a comment that reflects a kind of tired, angry emotion about
> having to point out a mistake or breach of protocol yet again, I always
> flinch. This is because it is almost certainly the first time for the
> person who made the mistake. And, it seems unfair to burden them with the
> anger that comes from the mistakes of others who came before them. You can
> see that in some of the earlier comments in this thread.
>
> I see why people get worn out having to say things over and over,
> especially when they are documented in wikis, but there are other factors,
> most importantly that new people are joining the community every day.
>
> Compare a statement like this:
>
>  "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful,
> here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"
>
> Thanks Courtney, this is helpful, and actionable.  If there are other
things that you, or others can point out, it would further the journey to
better communication.

Mike

>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Courtney]

Just to tie up a few of the loose ends.

Nothing that anyone has said has been dismissed or downgraded as merely
"pushback."  This has all been very instructive for me and I've learned a
lot.

In the first post, Marjan described the companies and roles of the folks to
whom I'm referring to as my "team."

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2023-April/088217.html

These three folks are former colleagues since I used to work at TomTom.
Now, I am a strategic communications consultant and a writer. I still
volunteer for the CWG, and I'm also consulting a bit with the OSMF on its
fundraising.  Even though I'm not with TomTom anymore, I am still
interested in the communications data project, so I have continued to work
on it as a volunteer. We are presenting at SotMUS in June. We are in the
4:30pm slot on Friday.  https://2023.stateofthemap.us/schedule/

I don't see any way to have avoided saying that Marjan and I volunteer for
the CWG because it's relevant to the study. Being on the CWG helped us
understand more about how OSM communicates and gave us the idea to study
the channel and forum data. It also gives me a way to volunteer within the
community since I'm not a GIS expert or software engineer.

I think this covers everything? If not, let me know.

Don't forget to take the survey!
https://osmf.limequery.org/875881?lang=en (There
is a bit more about the project in the introduction)


On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 4:27 PM John Whelan  wrote:

>
>
> Courtney wrote on 5/3/2023 4:00 PM:
> Compare a statement like this:
>
>  "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful,
> here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"
>
> to a statement like this:
>
>  "I am disappointed to yet again see someone doing this wrong and ignoring
> the requests of the community"
>
>
> There is a difference in the level of language proficiency needed to use
> the first sentence so you're asking a great deal of people using a second
> language to use that level of proficiency.
> This might be appropriate for easing people into a new situation  but I
> think you also have to take into account that technical people and there
> are many here usually are more direct , blunt if you like.
>
> How would you rephrase Fredrick's post by the way?  I may have missed your
> answer.
>
> Can you clarify who "your team" in this context is? You were introduced in
> Marjan's initial post as "OSMF Communication Working Group Member" and were
> the only of four names without a TomTom affiliation. You are posting this
> neither from an OSMF nor from a TomTom address but from a gmail one.
>
> Is "your team" a corporate TomTom endeavour? Is it the OSMF Communications
> working group? Or...?
>
> Unclear affiliations are a problem, as I pointed out in this thread a few
> days ago. Has everything I said been filed away under "pushback" and
> ignored?
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Cheerio John
> --
> Sent from Postbox 
>


-- 

--Courtney Cook Williamson
survivalbybook.substack.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[stevea]

It seems the big joy in all this is that we are all quite correct.

It isn't so much a conflict as it is "what comes next."  Sure, there are good 
questions that haven't been answered yet, I look forward to those.

OSM isn't a battle.  It is a project.  We grow.

Does it matter what the survey might tell the team, does it matter what the 
realpolitik or composition (its intentions might be...) of the team might be?  
It has formed, Courtney is part of it.  We ARE having this conversation.  It's 
gonna be long, I can tell, part of a dialog we've been having all along, 
really.  Some topics are out in the open more.  Uphill climb, to be sure, 
though lots of us are pedaling.  Oh, and like the song says, "we're an adult 
now."

OSM has toys to share, toys to craft, toys yet to build and more.  We do keep 
learning to share our toys:  it only makes us stronger.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 3:38 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 1:00 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
> wrote:
>
>> I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of
>> the mailing lists
>>
> I am not sure using a term such as "combative" is going to be effective in
> bringing about the change you desire.   First the term has strong negative
> connotation
>

Whether it's negative is a value judgment, but it's absolutely my
observation. For me, it's descriptive, and I've simply adapted to dealing
with it to get things done on the project. So far, the mailing list hasn't
gone away as a relevant communication space, though I do agree that its
influence is waning. So here I am, dealing with it out of necessity.
However, I absolutely believe people when they express disdain for this
forum.

and second it is non specific.
>

When I send a message to the list, I craft it with several expectations
regarding how it will be received.

I expect that every word of any message I send to the lists may be picked
apart and quoted out of context. I expect that my motivations may be
questioned and that commenters will assume a hidden agenda. I expect
argumentation, criticism, judgment, and accusations that I should have
known better or been aware of a more correct or expected
behavior, principle, or expectation. I expect my
personal/professional/project affiliations, nationality, demographics, and
socio-economic status to be scrutinized in search of bias. I expect threads
to diverge into rabbit holes and meta-discussions. I expect new ideas to be
quickly dismissed. I expect the forest may be lost for the trees and for
hyper-specific details to be nitpicked. I expect that good-faith proposed
solutions to problems may be dismissed without offering alternatives. I
expect to be held to an unreasonable or unattainable standard of evidence
or performance.

That is probably not an exhaustive list, but that's what I mean by
combative, and I don't think that minor changes in word choice will change
the fundamental nature of how people communicate here. I'm sure I'm not
alone in this experience.

And worse, to meaningfully participate here, I often feel compelled to
engage in many of these same combative behaviors that I'm describing to
make my voice heard against this backdrop, so it becomes self-reinforcing.

The people you view as combative probably don't see themselves as combative
> and don't what specifically is causing you to perceive them as such, and
> thus don't know what to do differently.
>

Indeed.

That's why I'm glad that people much smarter than I am on these topics are
exploring the problem.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[John Whelan]

Courtney wrote on 5/3/2023 4:00 PM:
Compare a statement like this:

 "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful, 
here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"


to a statement like this:

 "I am disappointed to yet again see someone doing this wrong and 
ignoring the requests of the community"



There is a difference in the level of language proficiency needed to use 
the first sentence so you're asking a great deal of people using a 
second language to use that level of proficiency.
This might be appropriate for easing people into a new situation  but I 
think you also have to take into account that technical people and there 
are many here usually are more direct , blunt if you like.


How would you rephrase Fredrick's post by the way?  I may have missed 
your answer.


Can you clarify who "your team" in this context is? You were introduced 
in Marjan's initial post as "OSMF Communication Working Group Member" 
and were the only of four names without a TomTom affiliation. You are 
posting this neither from an OSMF nor from a TomTom address but from a 
gmail one.


Is "your team" a corporate TomTom endeavour? Is it the OSMF 
Communications working group? Or...?


Unclear affiliations are a problem, as I pointed out in this thread a 
few days ago. Has everything I said been filed away under "pushback" and 
ignored?


Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Courtney]

It's valid to ask for more specifics. You're right that "combative" just
ends up being an alienating word.

Here's an example that I think everyone can benefit from.

When I see a comment that reflects a kind of tired, angry emotion about
having to point out a mistake or breach of protocol yet again, I always
flinch. This is because it is almost certainly the first time for the
person who made the mistake. And, it seems unfair to burden them with the
anger that comes from the mistakes of others who came before them. You can
see that in some of the earlier comments in this thread.

I see why people get worn out having to say things over and over,
especially when they are documented in wikis, but there are other factors,
most importantly that new people are joining the community every day.

Compare a statement like this:

 "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful, here
are some ideas for how to structure for your project"

to a statement like this:

 "I am disappointed to yet again see someone doing this wrong and ignoring
the requests of the community"

In my writing world, this is a question of audience. The first version
speaks to the person who posted. The second one speaks to all of the people
who already know each other in the forum.  The first one is inherently
inclusive. The second one excludes the newcomer from the conversation.

This is just an example---food for thought.

Courtney

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 3:41 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 1:00 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
> wrote:
>
>> I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of
>> the mailing lists
>>
> I am not sure using a term such as "combative" is going to be effective in
> bringing about the change you desire.   First the term has strong negative
> connotation,  and second it is non specific. The people you view as
> combative probably don't see themselves as combative and don't what
> specifically is causing you to perceive them as such, and thus don't know
> what to do differently.
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>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, May 3, 2023, 1:00 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
wrote:

> I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the mailing
> lists
>
I am not sure using a term such as "combative" is going to be effective in
bringing about the change you desire.   First the term has strong negative
connotation,  and second it is non specific. The people you view as
combative probably don't see themselves as combative and don't what
specifically is causing you to perceive them as such, and thus don't know
what to do differently.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Courtney]

I think it's really cool how this thread has turned into a compendium--or
commonplace book--of ideas about the culture here. To me, all of the causes
you've discussed are in play, including the impact of types of tools and
types of data collection methodology.  It's why I am so drawn to this
community: the many forms of national, regional and other kinds of
identity, types of professional training or skill, different generational
approaches, levels of technology literacy, class consciousness (or lack
thereof), etc., are really cool, especially in the context of a globally
shared project. Then, add to that, the exponential number of available
communication channels and tools which confer yet another dimension of
complexity. I was going to try to write a bit about this in a diary post,
but honestly, you all have said almost everything I would have said, and
said it better than I could.

I do resonate with this idea about productive conflict:

"[Talk-OSM] is characterized by *"deep-level diversity," and as a result,
more productive conflicts are expected than usual,* which is normal based
on some diversity research [3]. This means that diverse perspectives and
experiences can lead to more engaging discussions and ultimately result in
innovative solutions and ideas for the community."

Although this thread was initially bruising, the outcome has been powerful.
That said, for anyone whose personality tends more toward "flight" than
"fight" this is a pretty high barrier to access.

Our presentation is primarily going to be about the quantitative
communications data that we are able to obtain from the publicly available
sources, but I will also make a point of drawing from this thoughtful
commentary and gathering it together as part of the survey findings.  Maybe
I can find a place for it to live in the wiki, so there is an online home
for it. Or maybe I can just post it in some diary entries. You all can
advise on this when the time comes.

If anyone in this thread wants to join us in looking at the data and/or
processing the survey, please reach out to me off-list. One of my big
takeaways from this conversation is that this is a big project--all help is
welcome!

C



On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 2:31 PM stevea  wrote:

> On May 3, 2023, at 11:07 AM, John Whelan  wrote:
> > A very accurate summation in my opinion.
>
> > Imre Samu wrote on 5/3/2023 1:03 PM:
> >> Courtney  ezt írta (időpont: 2023. ápr.
> 30., V, 19:06):
> >> This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is the
> main "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback? Why is it the
> only one that is producing such a negative tone?
> >>
> >> Hi Courtney,
> 
>
> I agree this is an excellent summation and an important takeaway from it
> that our Etiquette Guidelines may need bolstering in these directions.  In
> fact, I quoted Imre's short essay on our community forum [1] in a
> discussion about trail_visibility that I slightly hijacked off-topic (and
> have since steered back on-topic) about European / German-speaking usage of
> the word "wasteland" (which my US-English ear finds somewhat harsh) versus
> my preferred word for these areas, which I and others might consider
> "wilderness."
>
> OSM is a global project (somewhat obviously, but apparently often
> forgotten or ignored).  We do well to strive to understand, embrace and
> even celebrate cultural and language differences as part of our greatest
> strengths.
>
> Köszönök mindent, Imre.
>
> [1]
> https://community.osm.org/t/tag-trail-visibility-proposed-improvements-for-this-descriptive-tag/97865/98
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the mailing
lists as "cultural differences". I can think of several German participants
on Slack and Discord that dispel this stereotype.  Similarly, I can think
of several American commenters who are notoriously abrasive on the mailing
lists.  Some have suggested that "open source absolutists" as a group are
the issue. However, we don't seem to have the same complaints about the new
Discourse community forum. Other explanations I've heard suggest that
real-time chat, moderation, and emoji reactions make for a more
collaborative atmosphere for some reason. I don't have the answer, but I
think this thread highlights that there are very real differences in the
various communication spaces that are worth exploring. I welcome any effort
to learn more about how we can maximize people's willingness to participate
in the project. If a meaningful demographic is repeatedly saying that
people's behaviors in communication spaces are reducing participation, I
don't think that should be dismissed or hand-waved away with simple
explanations. Unlike others apparently, I don't especially care who does
that research. If the data, analysis, or methodology are bad or opaque then
that will speak for itself. In the meantime, I assume good faith and await
what the people willing to get their hands dirty and work on the problem
have to say.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[stevea]

On May 3, 2023, at 11:07 AM, John Whelan  wrote:
> A very accurate summation in my opinion.

> Imre Samu wrote on 5/3/2023 1:03 PM:
>> Courtney  ezt írta (időpont: 2023. ápr. 30., 
>> V, 19:06):
>> This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is the main 
>> "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback? Why is it the only 
>> one that is producing such a negative tone? 
>> 
>> Hi Courtney,


I agree this is an excellent summation and an important takeaway from it that 
our Etiquette Guidelines may need bolstering in these directions.  In fact, I 
quoted Imre's short essay on our community forum [1] in a discussion about 
trail_visibility that I slightly hijacked off-topic (and have since steered 
back on-topic) about European / German-speaking usage of the word "wasteland" 
(which my US-English ear finds somewhat harsh) versus my preferred word for 
these areas, which I and others might consider "wilderness."

OSM is a global project (somewhat obviously, but apparently often forgotten or 
ignored).  We do well to strive to understand, embrace and even celebrate 
cultural and language differences as part of our greatest strengths.

Köszönök mindent, Imre.

[1] 
https://community.osm.org/t/tag-trail-visibility-proposed-improvements-for-this-descriptive-tag/97865/98
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[John Whelan]

A very accurate summation in my opinion.

Thank you

John

Imre Samu wrote on 5/3/2023 1:03 PM:
Courtney > ezt írta (időpont: 2023. ápr. 
30., V, 19:06):


This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is
the main "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback?
Why is it the only one that is producing such a negative tone? 



Hi Courtney,

I think it's important to mention the problems arising from 
*intercultural differences*
in your SOTM US - OSM Communication Presentation, as the OSM community 
currently struggles with misunderstandings between different cultural 
groups.


Although the "OSM Diversity Statement" has been accepted, its 
practical implementation isn't fully successful yet. *Ethnocentric 
attitudes* need to be addressed, and we must be more open to other 
cultures. However, this is easier said than done.


IMHO:
Most conflicts within the OSM community and on the OSM-Talk mailing 
list are due to *intercultural differences,* and there's no current 
mediation or conflict resolution in place. It might be helpful to have 
"intercultural mediators" who can bridge the gap between cultures and 
help understand other cultural groups.


I mainly notice the clash between American and EU/German cultures, but 
other cultural conflicts are likely as well.


Probably the EU/German OSM community needs to learn how to wrap their 
raw, honest messages in a sugar coating, making it more palatable for 
those with an American cultural background. Conversely, the American 
community should strive to be less sensitive towards differing norms 
from other cultural communities, embracing the deep-level diversity 
that comes with global collaboration. ( [1], [2]  )


Unfortunately, the current OSM Etiquette Guidelines [ 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette/Etiquette_Guidelines ]  
do not provide much assistance in understanding and resolving 
intercultural issues. To improve the guidelines, it would be 
beneficial to incorporate information on intercultural communication 
and provide resources to help community members navigate these 
challenges effectively. This would promote a more inclusive and 
harmonious environment within the OSM community.


In addition to this, new OSM community members should be prepared for 
the potential culture shock they may encounter, especially those who 
come from a top-down corporate environment. It's important to remember 
that OpenStreetMap is characterized by a bazaar-style, bottom-up 
communication approach, which may be an adjustment for some. Embracing 
this unique aspect of the community will help newcomers adapt and 
thrive in the OSM environment.


In fact, this is a big topic, and when I consider the OSM community 
problems from the past few years through the viewpoint of cultural 
differences, it gives me a good understanding of the reasons.


Generally, the OSM Talks mailing list is characterized by *"deep-level 
diversity," and as a result, more productive conflicts are expected 
than usual,* which is normal based on some diversity research [3]. 
This means that diverse perspectives and experiences can lead to more 
engaging discussions and ultimately result in innovative solutions and 
ideas for the community.


I would be curious about others' opinions as well. To what extent can 
cultural diversity be a problem? And how can we alleviate conflicts 
and amplify the advantages arising from cultural differences?




contexts:
[1]
/""According to Hofstede, a typical conversation in a German cultural 
context is characterized by a large degree of honesty, even if it hurts./
/Consequently, Germans are perceived to be among the most direct 
communicators in the world (Yin, 2002).
Presumably, the strategy “be honest even if it hurts” offers the other 
party the opportunity to understand and learn from possible mistakes.
In a qualitative study, Yin (2002) explored the concept of  German 
wahrheit (truth), in terms of a German standard for communicating in 
public.
She describes wahrheit as expressions of an individual’s personal 
opinions, using the first pronoun: “The wahrheit can be displayed in a 
manner that implicitly or explicitly indicates the rightness of one’s 
own opinion. In public talk, as one German informant put it, ‘Telling 
the wahrheit hurts a little bit, but it’s okay’” (Yin, 2002, p. 249).  
As a result, frank and forthright discussion with open disagreement 
for the sake of the discussion is preferred" Indeed, not directly 
telling the wahrheit was perceived as hiding personal opinions or 
lying by the German participants in Yin’s (2002) study.

...
Additionally, Yin’s (2002) findings suggest that German and 
U.S.-American meetings might differ in terms of the frequency of 
counteractive meeting behaviors. Her finding that Germans were more 
outspoken, cared particularly for telling the honest truth (even if it 
hurts), and expected others to do so as well, could imply a