Re: [Talk-hr] 1. mapping party - aftermath
On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 12:09:54AM +0100, Željko Filipin wrote: Ubacio link na slike na flickru ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/7387...@n08/tags/mappingparty/) na http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2009.11.29_-_prvi_mapping_party E, bas su dobre fotke, radna grupa samo takva ! ja sam napravio PartyRender animaciju (skoro realnu; Dimov gpx je imao cudne datume iz 2007e pa sam ga odokativno fixao gpsbabelom). Evo na: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2009.11.29_-_prvi_mapping_party#Rezultat ima i slikica i filmic. Nazalost zbog buga filmic nema zavrsnog fadeouta na iscrtanu kartu; smrc. Ako netko ima ideju gdje je nestao ovaj URL: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/bbox/?W=%fS=%fE=%fN=%fwidth=%dheight=%d neka vice (svi ovi drugi koje sam nasao koriste lat+lon+zoom umjesto bboxa za povlacenje PNGa) -- Opinions above are GNU-copylefted. ___ Talk-hr mailing list Talk-hr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-hr
Re: [talk-ph] Time for another mapping party?
Guys, I'm really sorry I cannot join the mapping party tomorrow. I am just informed this afternoon that my professional org (IECEP-Davao) will be going to Tagaytay early tomorrow morning. I brought with me 2 gps units I will just make my owm mapping there. Keep on mapping! My appologies guys. murlwe -Original Message- From: maning sambale [emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com] Sent: 12/10/2009 6:59:02 PM To: talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Time for another mapping party? See you guys on Saturday. I will start printing the walking-papers maps in b/w. http://walking-papers.org/print.php?id=wg2r8ncp If you have request for print, just send me a message with the walking-papers url. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 11:33 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: OK added in the events section: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines#Events On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Starbucks in Araneta Coliseum would be good. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 7:36 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Any place in Araneta/Gateway where we can meet in the morning? I'm not familiar in the area. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 6:52 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Just a reminder, we will have a micro-mapping meetup on Saturday December 12, 2009. This event coincides with OSM's Christmas Party. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Christmas_Party_2009 On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:17 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Let's mark this date! December 12, 2009 http://osm.org/go/4zhScqcE Mapping goal: map as much POI as we can within the Araneta Complex and adjacent areas. I can print some walkingpapers (black and white) of the area. Schedule: 8:00 - 3:00 - meet and somewhere in Gateway and then do mapping 3:00 - onwards - meet in a pub/cafe to share stories and plans for next year. On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: December 12, 2009 maning murlwe neil nacario eugene (seav) [insert your name here] On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:53 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: December 12, 2009 maning murlwe neil nacario [insert your name here] On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Marloue Pidor mur...@mail2engineer.com wrote: I'm in Manila on Dec 9-12. My return fight will be on Dec 12 9pm. Maybe I can join the mapping party on that date. -Original Message- From: Nacario Neil [nbnaca...@yahoo.com] Sent: 11/19/2009 12:11:12 PM To: talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Time for another mapping party? OK with December 5, 12 or 19 - Original Message From: maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com To: OSM talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 12:01:09 PM Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Time for another mapping party? Sounds good to me. The Saturdays of December are 5, 12 and 19 On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Here's an idea: OSM-PH Christmas-Mapping Party When: a Saturday in early December (let's pick the one where most people are available) Where: Cubao-Project 4 area (the area bounded by EDSA, Aurora, Katipunan and Serrano: http://osm.org/go/4zhSbbzg-- ) What: Walking-Papers-type mapping (no GPS required) then a light dinner (at Gateway?), like the one that happened back in March Who: OSM contributors (no need to target newbies for now, but they are welcome of course) We don't have to go all out. Just a simple activity with fellow OSM contributors. :-) What do you guys think? On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 7:30 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Retrying this appeal. Anybody interested for a mapping party before 2009 ends? Or an OSM-PH mini conf? Or both? On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Hey guys, It's been 4 months since the Tagaytay Mapping Party, so I think === message truncated === span id=m2wTlpfont face=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif size=2 style=font-size:13.5px___BRGet the Free email that has everyone talking at a href=http://www.mail2world.com target=newhttp://www.mail2world.com/abr font color=#99Unlimited Email Storage #150; POP3 #150; Calendar #150; SMS #150; Translator #150; Much More!/font/font/span___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] Cartography Site
Nice site about cartographic design. http://cartography2.org/ Came across it just now, but haven't really had a chance to dig into it, as I'm working right now ... hope you're having fun mapping. Jim -- datalude: information security e: j...@datalude.com Philippines: +63 2 403 1311 / mob: +63 920 912 5830 Hong Kong: +852 6840 6693 w: http://www.datalude.com/ ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On 09/12/2009, at 11:46 AM, Anthony wrote: A transfer of copyright is a transfer of exclusive rights. In the US, and probably in other jurisdictions as well, it must be signed and in writing. One key difference is that someone who is granted a nonexclusive license does not have the power to sue for copyright infringement, whereas someone who is the recipient of a transfer of copyright can sue for copyright infringement - in fact, in the absense of a license to the contrary the recipient of a copyright assignment can even sue the person from whom the copyright was transferred. Additionally, in the case of an assignment of copyright, the original copyright holder can terminate the transfer after 35 years. This is not possible in the case of a nonexclusive license. http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/license.html Some other potential points against using copyright transfer: * Given one of the arguments against CC-BY-SA is that in some jurisdictions the data isn't subject to copyright, copyright assignment of the data would be a bit questionable. * Businesses and government department are unlikely to want to assign copyright to someone else, assuming that they are even the actual copyright holder. * A lot of people won't want to do that. Quite a few people won't work on various open-source projects because they require assignment. * You'd probably need to be a lot more careful. I believe that there are some jurisdictions where signing copyright transfer paperwork for something you aren't the copyright holder of is a lot more serious than plain copyright infringement. * You wouldn't be able to use data you personally collected, except under the ODbL (the last part of the second sentence on the second paragraph above). The downside of not requiring copyright assignment is that OSMF can't sue for copyright infringement of the data. They could still sue for breach of contract and possible infringement of the database rights (I'm not sure about that, I don't know enough about EU law). ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On 11/12/09 10:26, James Livingston wrote: * You wouldn't be able to use data you personally collected, except under the ODbL (the last part of the second sentence on the second paragraph above). I believe that the FSF copyright assignment scheme licences your work back to you once you sign it over. So if the OSMF did use rights assignment (let's not call it copyright assignment...), it could do the same. - Rob. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
2009/12/11 James Livingston doc...@mac.com: Some other potential points against using copyright transfer: * Given one of the arguments against CC-BY-SA is that in some jurisdictions the data isn't subject to copyright, copyright assignment of the data would be a bit questionable. * Businesses and government department are unlikely to want to assign copyright to someone else, assuming that they are even the actual copyright holder. * A lot of people won't want to do that. Quite a few people won't work on various open-source projects because they require assignment. * You'd probably need to be a lot more careful. I believe that there are some jurisdictions where signing copyright transfer paperwork for something you aren't the copyright holder of is a lot more serious than plain copyright infringement. * You wouldn't be able to use data you personally collected, except under the ODbL (the last part of the second sentence on the second paragraph above). The downside of not requiring copyright assignment is that OSMF can't sue for copyright infringement of the data. I think the plan was to use some very liberal license for the data (as opposed to database) which would not let them sue for copyright infringement anyway, because the license basically can't be infringed? But if the foundation wants to have copyright in the data I think it's trivial for it to have some by doing *some* of the maintenance edits on behalf of the foundation or one person (or more) transferring their rights instead of everyone doing this. Out of curiosity, could the license at all work if contributors didn't have to assign copyright *nor* database rights? Apart from the fact that updating the license would require a new vote (or licensing under ODbL v1+, similar to GPLv2+), but could that be done? Cheers ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Licence termination
David Groom schrieb: The first time I access the database [definition (1)] then, for as long as the database is directly accessible, am I not being granted a right to continue to access it under the terms existing when I first accessed it? No, the license gives you the right to Use the Database, where Use is defined as doing any act that is restricted by copyright or Database Rights whether in the original medium or any other; and includes without limitation distributing, copying, publicly performing, publicly displaying, and preparing derivative works of the Database, as well as modifying the Database as may be technically necessary to use it in a different mode or format. This is an intellectual property rights license and does not deal with access to the website at all. Also see Section 9.5: Notwithstanding the above, Licensor reserves the right to release the Database under different license terms or to stop distributing or making available the Database. Releasing the Database under different license terms or stopping the distribution of the Database will not withdraw this License (or any other license that has been, or is required to be, granted under the terms of this License), and this License will continue in full force and effect unless terminated as stated above. All I can deduce from your point, is that when the ODbL is read in conjunction with a document that is currently being worked on, than the meaning of the ODbL might be clearer. Actually I think the ODbL is as clear as any license in that respect. You're asking about something that is not part of a license. As I wrote, the website terms of use would be the document to look at for details about access to the website, but even if there is no such document that doesn't mean you're granted any particular rights to continue accessing it. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On 12/12/2009, at 7:07 AM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: But if the foundation wants to have copyright in the data I think it's trivial for it to have some by doing *some* of the maintenance edits on behalf of the foundation or one person (or more) transferring their rights instead of everyone doing this. One of the claimed problems with CC-BY-SA was that users were worried that they could be sued by any contributor for copyright infringement. Aside from any can the data have copyright rights questions, if OSMF was to claim some copyright in the data then they're basically implying that other contributors do too, and anyone of us could sue users. Which I don't think is what they want. Out of curiosity, could the license at all work if contributors didn't have to assign copyright *nor* database rights? Apart from the fact that updating the license would require a new vote (or licensing under ODbL v1+, similar to GPLv2+), but could that be done? As I understand it, contributors don't have to (and aren't being asked to) assign either of those rights in the exclusive transfer sense. We're giving OSMF non-exclusive permission to distribute our contributions under ODbL (and future licenses, etc.). ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL Enforcement (Re: OBbL and forks)
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:03 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: 2) One or more contributors suing for copyright infringement - one of the things that ODbL supposedly fixes is being sued for this by individual contributors, so lets discount it for now. The ODbL doesn't cover the database contents. Open Data Commons recommends using the Database Contents License (which I believe is essentially PD/CC0) for that. However, so far no one has answered my repeated questions as to whether or not this is going to be used by OSM. If not, in jurisdictions where geodata is copyrightable (especially sweat-of-the-brow jurisdictions), contributors would retain all rights reserved. So, that's still an open question. Which so far no one seems to have addressed. So if someone uses data from the main OSM db, doesn't follow the terms of the ODbL, OSMF can probbaly sue them for breach of contract. My question (it took a while to get here) is can the OSMF sue for that if the data wasn't directly from them? The other day I downloaded an Australian extract of a planet dump, and the data travelled OSM - mirror - person doing extract - me. If the data was ODbL'd, who is my contract with? If I agreed to the contract via clickwrap browsewrap, then presumably it would be the person who did the AU extract, so could OSMF sue me if I violated ODbL? They could try, but if you've never used an OSMF website (since the license change), I don't see how they could win. And even if they did win, at least if your jurisdiction is anything like it is here in Florida, they'd be able to get a judgment for actual damages. Which, since you didn't even touch their server in the first place, is probably not that much. Then, if they get that far, they get to have fun trying to collect that judgment. In the jurisdictions I'm familiar with, breach of contract is non-criminal. In fact, it's not even tortious. There are no injunctions, no statutory damages, and no punitive damages. Read Jacobsen v. Katzer, and then scratch your head wonder why anyone would intentionally try to have a copyleft license governed under contract law rather than copyright law. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On 09/12/09 09:48, Ed Avis wrote: A related question is that if a fork happened, could it then be merged back into the main OSM project? Just like any other ODbL contribution, this could only be done if the contributors signed the Contributor Terms, or the OSMF agreed to waive the signing of them. Gerv ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On 08/12/09 15:14, andrzej zaborowski wrote: Right, so this is one thing that isn't being made so clear. It's been said multiple times that the ODbL transition in summary is the spirit of CC-By-SA taken and made into a proper license for a database. But actually it's the spirit of CC-By-SA + copyright assignment, like that of Mozilla and others, which makes a difference. Correction: Mozilla does not require copyright assignment. (However, your point is correct.) Gerv ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 Anthony o...@inbox.org: I see no evidence that that's the case. I don't think attempting to impose a contractual agreement on others without their consent is going to work, and I think there will be significant negative side-effects to such immoral behavior. I don't think immoral is the right word here, people are trying to come up with a suitable method to make sure everyone is playing fair, if the data is improved isn't it only fair that the entire community benefits from it, since whom ever improved it is obviously benefiting from OSM data in the first place. Some would see it as immoral to not give back such changes to the community. While I agree with ODBL in principal, the devil is always in the details and I'm still trying to find somewhere to obtain Australian legal advice as to how this may adversely effect the Australian OSM community. Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this. This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the tile server to get round this problem, the problem with that of course is how to remove non-ODBL data when ODBL data becomes available, since you wouldn't easily be able to edit or remove such data from a read only database. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses nicely about giving us their added data back? It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little mutual trust can get you. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 Paul Wagener osm-t...@paulwagener.nl: This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses nicely about giving us their added data back? It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little mutual trust can get you. Isn't that in essence what licenses are for? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
Saying This would be a disaster is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very, very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually have to go out into the real world and make maps. ;-) On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:54 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/11 Anthony o...@inbox.org: I see no evidence that that's the case. I don't think attempting to impose a contractual agreement on others without their consent is going to work, and I think there will be significant negative side-effects to such immoral behavior. I don't think immoral is the right word here, people are trying to come up with a suitable method to make sure everyone is playing fair, if the data is improved isn't it only fair that the entire community benefits from it, since whom ever improved it is obviously benefiting from OSM data in the first place. Some would see it as immoral to not give back such changes to the community. While I agree with ODBL in principal, the devil is always in the details and I'm still trying to find somewhere to obtain Australian legal advice as to how this may adversely effect the Australian OSM community. Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this. This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the tile server to get round this problem, the problem with that of course is how to remove non-ODBL data when ODBL data becomes available, since you wouldn't easily be able to edit or remove such data from a read only database. -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
John Smith wrote: 2009/12/11 Paul Wagener osm-t...@paulwagener.nl: This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses nicely about giving us their added data back? It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little mutual trust can get you. Isn't that in essence what licenses are for? That is the entire crux of this problem ... CAN we trust commercial organizations with big bank balances to play fair. I think the answer has to be 'NO' so we need the DATA protected a little better . -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
Op 11 dec 2009, om 10:11 heeft John Smith het volgende geschreven: 2009/12/11 Paul Wagener osm-t...@paulwagener.nl: This might sound like a crazy idea, but can't we just ask businesses nicely about giving us their added data back? It has already got us this far. You'd be surprised how far a little mutual trust can get you. Isn't that in essence what licenses are for? No, the licenses are for forcing businesses to give us their added data back. That is something else entirely. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
so we don't need imported data? -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 From: paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com To: Liz ed...@billiau.net Liz, The coastline I did back in the old days was between Hastings in Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g: Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance of Yahoo Aerial photos. Really, we made perfectly good street maps without importing data for some years before people started bulk importing data. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, paul youlten wrote: Saying This would be a disaster is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very, very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually have to go out into the real world and make maps. ;-) I find your attitude very difficult to understand. You may feel that we shouldn't use any information that we can get from 'elsewhere' but you might like to check your own country. If it has a coastline, was it mapped by an OSM mapper in a kayak or was it imported data? -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 --- -- BOFH excuse #193: Did you pay the new Support Fee? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Hi all, I've been showing my progress on this task to the tag list, but now that I have a pretty table, I'll show it here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport This table shows whether the main OSM stylesheets in each of Mapnik and Osmarenderer support each of the given tags. The definition of support is pretty flimsy: basically I'm just scanning for expressions like wetland='bog'. Still, I think it gives a bit of an idea. Would love to hear from anyone who thinks this is useful, or would like to suggest the next steps (ie, potlatch, merkaartor...) It's generated from a pretty hefty (300 line) XSLT 2.0 stylesheet. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
On Friday 11 Dec 2009 3:43:23 pm Steve Bennett wrote: I've been showing my progress on this task to the tag list, but now that I have a pretty table, I'll show it here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport This table shows whether the main OSM stylesheets in each of Mapnik and Osmarenderer support each of the given tags. The definition of support is pretty flimsy: basically I'm just scanning for expressions like wetland='bog'. Still, I think it gives a bit of an idea. nice - and I wonder why mapnik does not support the shop tag? Is there some policy reason, or is it just that no one has got around to it yet? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On 11/12/2009, at 8:02 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: so we don't need imported data? In most cases we don't need imported data, but it can be useful. For example rather than painstakingly crafting the entire coastline of Australia from a few GPS traces and a lot of imagery (much is relatively inaccessible), we can import it from someone's dataset and spend that large amount of time doing other things to improve OSM that we can't import data for. There are also some things where importing external datasets is the *only* way to get it into OSM. For example boundaries of areas that have no physical edge, just a (not necessarily straight) line on someone decided on at some point in time. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
James, I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains, underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be useful. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:26 AM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: On 11/12/2009, at 8:02 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: so we don't need imported data? In most cases we don't need imported data, but it can be useful. For example rather than painstakingly crafting the entire coastline of Australia from a few GPS traces and a lot of imagery (much is relatively inaccessible), we can import it from someone's dataset and spend that large amount of time doing other things to improve OSM that we can't import data for. There are also some things where importing external datasets is the *only* way to get it into OSM. For example boundaries of areas that have no physical edge, just a (not necessarily straight) line on someone decided on at some point in time. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
We do. There are data that are not so easiliy trackable. Borders, for example, are almost impossible to track yourself, unless you have a textual and non-ambiguous description, like follows this river. Which reminds me of the project I had looked forward to do: Canoeing the russian-norwegian border river with a GPS :) Unfortunately, we got the data through other means :) - Vegard On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 09:02:09PM +1100, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: so we don't need imported data? -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 From: paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com To: Liz ed...@billiau.net Liz, The coastline I did back in the old days was between Hastings in Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g: Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance of Yahoo Aerial photos. Really, we made perfectly good street maps without importing data for some years before people started bulk importing data. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, paul youlten wrote: Saying This would be a disaster is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very, very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually have to go out into the real world and make maps. ;-) I find your attitude very difficult to understand. You may feel that we shouldn't use any information that we can get from 'elsewhere' but you might like to check your own country. If it has a coastline, was it mapped by an OSM mapper in a kayak or was it imported data? -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 --- -- BOFH excuse #193: Did you pay the new Support Fee? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- - Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
Elizabeth Dodd wrote: so we don't need imported data? Only where it is actually adding information. When it is overwriting data that may well be more accurate - then no we don't ? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
paul youlten wrote: James, I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains, underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be useful. Really Paul? Says who? When walking I find pylon positions extremely useful for navigation. Please don't assume others use maps in exactly the same way you do. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...
Anthony schrieb: 2009/12/10 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net mailto:osm-l...@deelkar.net Anthony schrieb: That does it, I'm making a way with name=Northern Hemisphere. Or would that be name=equator. Doesn't work, does it? No, you can't put in the equator as a *closed* way, since the API doesn't allow the way to wrap around on lon+-180°. How does the API determine whether or not a way is closed? The first node is simply referenced a second time at the end. Isn't it up to the software at the other end of the API to interpret a way which goes from -179 degrees to +179 degrees along the equator? (JFTR: -180 and +180 degrees are valid longitudes.) I assumed (I guess incorrectly), that most software would interpret that as the shortest possible line - a line with a length of 2 degrees, not a line with a length of 358 degrees. Yes, your assumption was wrong, the software does no wrapping around at the 180° Meridian. (currently) -- Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie Bremen - 53.0901°N 8.7868°E ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: so we don't need imported data? -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 From: paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com To: Liz ed...@billiau.net Liz, The coastline I did back in the old days was between Hastings in Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g: Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance of Yahoo Aerial photos. Ok Paul, when you have enough time and energy to map 34,218 kilometres (21,262 mi) of coastline (excluding all offshore islands) of Australia let us know, in the mean time we will be making do with the imported data we have. We also don't have access to aerial imagery except a small fraction of the 7.8 million sq km of land mass, although with your help/donations I'm sure we could possibly get some more. In short put your money where your mouth is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] ODL switch, will data be removed ?
Hi, Sorry in advance for the noob's question regarding the ongoing licence discussion, but I feel this might be an important matter to answer for watching guys like me http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Implementation_Plan says : Week 13 * Final cut-off. Community Question... What do we do with the people who have said no or not responded? This seams strange to me not to answer this before the question is asked, obviously, my feeling or answer is based on the what will happen to data (and not only mine, all data I have access right now) To make it like azimov's laws, here is my personnal tree decision priority (no n+1 rule can overwrite a n rule): 1) I want the data to be free to use 2) I want the data to be accessible 3) I want it's licence to be clear and efficient *1) free as libre *2) no point in having a super licence to missing data *3) ODL seams to fits best my wiches, but CC does not that badly The 2 VS 3 is of course a matter of magnitude, If I'm sure none of the data I use, modified, or created will become unavailable, then that's perfect, if all is to be removed, then that's horrible. Is there a threshold consensus ? In other terms, what percentage lost will be accepted until the licence change is abandonned ? I do understand that the vote outcome whould probably be different if that question is answered, so will this answer be... after the vote A two rounds voting might help maybe ? (And the gun will only be used on the second round, which might not be what some want) -- sly Sylvain Letuffe li...@letuffe.org qui suis-je : http://slyserv.dyndns.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Replacing Google with OSM
A little while ago I saw a note somewhere about some neat code to replace Google maps with OSM in a web application. I know a website that is using Google maps (with clickable location pins in place) that I would like to suggest uses OSM as it's base layer. They are probably OK to use the code that was suggested to change their site's map, but not to switch to Openlayers and redo the overlays (if you get my drift). Can someone point me to a link or mail thread please? Cheers STEVE Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow Manager of e-Learning Academic Development Centre for Educational Technology Middlesex University phone/fax: 020 8411 5355 email: ste...@mdx.ac.uk http://www.mdx.ac.uk/aboutus/elearning/chiltons.asp Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/ SoC conference 2009: http://www.soc.org.uk/southampton09/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
34,218 kilometres of beautiful, sunny coastline. ... sounds like you need to organise a huge mapping party... ... or maybe someone should set up a OSM-au holiday company - people in Northern Europe would pay good money to go on that sort of mapping adventure. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:11 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/11 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: so we don't need imported data? -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 From: paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com To: Liz ed...@billiau.net Liz, The coastline I did back in the old days was between Hastings in Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g: Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance of Yahoo Aerial photos. Ok Paul, when you have enough time and energy to map 34,218 kilometres (21,262 mi) of coastline (excluding all offshore islands) of Australia let us know, in the mean time we will be making do with the imported data we have. We also don't have access to aerial imagery except a small fraction of the 7.8 million sq km of land mass, although with your help/donations I'm sure we could possibly get some more. In short put your money where your mouth is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/11 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: That is until someone edits said PD data and then they want their edits under ODBL at which point it's no longer PD... Again, I did not create this option myself. This will be one of the three possible answers on the final vote. See this message from Frederik where he explaines why this option is present: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-December/045396.html Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Steve Bennett wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org wrote: nice - and I wonder why mapnik does not support the shop tag? Is there some policy reason, or is it just that no one has got around to it yet? If you look closely, it supports shop=* - that is, it recognises the shop tag (well, osm2pgsql does), but no specific values for it. Any other tags that we can check by hand? Steve Steve This 'supports' needs clarifying. For example you list bridge=aqueduct as yes, yet it doesn't render. So what is the difference in meaning between support render? Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
This 'supports' needs clarifying.
For example you list bridge=aqueduct as yes, yet it doesn't render.
So what is the difference in meaning between support render?
The term recognises is probably better than supports. I guess the
definition is something like is at least dimly aware of.
Looking at that specific case, the code that triggered its inclusion
in the table is this:
Layer name=waterway-bridges status=on srs=osm2pgsql_projection;
StyleNamewaterway-bridges/StyleName
Datasource
Parameter name=table(select way,name from prefix;_line
where waterway='canal' and bridge in ('yes','true','1','aqueduct')
order by z_order) as water/Parameter
datasource-settings;
/Datasource
/Layer
and this:
Layer name=water_lines status=on srs=osm2pgsql_projection;
StyleNamewater_lines/StyleName
Datasource
Parameter name=table
(select way,waterway,disused,name,
case when tunnel in ('yes','true','1') then 'yes'::text else
tunnel end as tunnel
from prefix;_line
where waterway in
('weir','river','canal','derelict_canal','stream','drain')
and (bridge is null or bridge not in ('yes','true','1','aqueduct'))
order by z_order
) as water_lines/Parameter
datasource-settings;
/Datasource
/Layer
So I guess while it may not have particular graphics associated with
it, bridge=aqueduct ways will get rendered at a higher z-order than
other sources of water, for instance. I'm sure a Mapnik expert can
fill us in on all the implications.
Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:39 PM, paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com wrote: James, I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains, underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be useful. And of course all the places people just aren't allowed to visit: private property, military areas, water catchments. And as has been pointed out, many boundaries don't have a physical manifestation that can be mapped. How on earth would you map council boundaries equipped just with a gps? National park boundaries? How would you name the tag the zillions of little bush tracks that have names but no signs? I'm not sure what proportion of the data we want can be collected using ground surveying with a gps alone, but it's far from 100%. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: For the 340+ who replied, we have: 30% yes, I will accept the new license Odbl 45% yes and consider all my data Public domain (no restrictions) 3% no, I will not accept the new license Odbl but I will if the license is reworked 10% no, I will not accept the new license Odbl and wants to continue with the CC-BY-SA2.0 license 12% I don't know yet because I don't understand the new license or the possible consequences So the number of people actually opposed to the Odbl is somewhere between 10 and 25%. That's a great result. (In the sense that unanimity is great.) Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What is there to be won by having a License
I still have to see the advantage of having a license at all. Do you live in a country that has signed the Berne Convention? You can see here at wikipedia if your country is involved: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements Having no license at all and while your country has signed the Berne Convention means legally don't touch my work, unless you ask, and I willingly give you my permission. Suddenly lots of things become illegal, unless you provide a notice saying for example without asking me for permission I grant you commercial or non-commercial use, and you can change this data and distribute the data etc etc.. Niklas -- Niklas Holmkvist ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:39 PM, paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com wrote: James, I am sure there are other examples of things that can't be easily mapped by humans walking, cycling and kayaking around (drains, underground tunnels and long lines of electricity pylons spring to mind). Luckily street maps don't usually depend on these things to be useful. And of course all the places people just aren't allowed to visit: private property, military areas, water catchments. And as has been pointed out, many boundaries don't have a physical manifestation that can be mapped. How on earth would you map council boundaries equipped just with a gps? National park boundaries? How would you name the tag the zillions of little bush tracks that have names but no signs? I'm not sure what proportion of the data we want can be collected using ground surveying with a gps alone, but it's far from 100%. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Apologize Steve. A bit of brain fade. I was thinking of viaduct, which clearly isn't listed. Sorry Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Lake Nasser not rendering
Hi, what is the reason, that lake nasser in upper egypt is not rendering in Mapnik? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.96481lon=32.88516zoom=15layers=B000FTF There is new yahoo imagery available and I would like to refiine the lake, but would prefer solving the rende problem beforehand. Greetings, Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping
Amidst the very serious and sometimes interesting licensing discussions, which I have only been silently following, I just thought of writing this small piece on challenges in mapping. And oh yes, I am voting 'YES' to the ODB License. Now, this is not an official document, just a slightly exaggerated and 'pun intended' kind of piece but mostly true account of a mapper's adventures. And because OSM does not have a blog, it is here. On another note, I think we should have an OSM blog. Mapping makes for very interesting travelling and there is so much people who want to could share. This is a little long, so bear with it but it should be worth it. :) Blog posted on this link as well: http://theconfusedandthewandering.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-experiments-with-mapping.html --- *My Experiments with Mapping *My apologies go out to Mahatma Gandhi for shamelessly plagiarizing the title of his autobiography, only in part though. However, if he were to read this blog post, even he would agree that my Titanic struggle mapping some parts of India was not too far off his struggle for getting India freedom. And I have only just started. For the sake of a short background, mapping caught my fancy when I went mad. Mad as in quit a good well paying job with a large corporation (the likes of which OSMers seem to hate so much), started travelling and as happens to all men who go mad, started day dreaming. Day dreams about getting paid for travelling!! Day dreams about getting paid for writing!! Ha!! Anyway, I wanted to map some of the treks I went to and I bought this fancy gadget called a GPS, a Garmin eTrex Vista Hcx, spending quite a significant portion of my fortune, only to realize later that this freaking thing tells me my position at any point with a certain degree of error and it even lies about that. Talk about a bad start!! The adventures or experiments, call them what you like, started with mapping parts of New Delhi and Gurgaon, a suburb of Delhi, at times with a friend who introduced me to OSM. On a hot afternoon, GPS in lap, hands on a steering wheel, I would be passing some buildings on the way. Now, as most of you would know, a mapper does not see buildings, parks, hotels, greens. All he ever sees is 'POIs'. POIs everywhere, left, right, center, POIs floating around in the air, each trying to catch his attention. And oh my! None of them on OSM. What blasphemy! So, each POI was marked on the 'GPS in the lap'. Since I only have 2 hands, I just remembered the names of the POIs and kept repeating them till I could park the car and take them down in my notebook. A tough initiation was followed by an even tougher experience. One fine day, Nishant (the friend and OSM mentor) comes and says 'I have to go for an interview..with a journalist'. And I was flummoxed. I mean, fine he is a great computer guy, believes in open source, I can maybe credit him with some intelligence and so on and so forth but who would want to interview this unbathed, shabbily dressed, half obese specimen of human filth? Then he tells me its some French journalist girl, who wants to interview an OSM mapper in India. Do I need to tell anyone here that French and girl got me going and I wanted to be the one interviewed but like we all make compromises, I had to live with Nishant as part of the interview. After we chatted a bit, she wanted to see how we mapped. Shalabh in the driving seat, French girl next to him, Nishant relegated to the back seat with the moronic GPS and we were off. Off to a residential area managed by DLF, a building company whose tagline says 'Building India'. I will reserve my comments on the tagline for later but we parked the car after sometime and started walking along the lanes, the poor studious Nishant taking down the POIs. We had walked maybe a few hundred metres when a motorbike approaches us. The rider is wearing a blue jacket with the words DLF QRT (Quick Response Team) written on the back. And then he starts mishandling us. Dont worry, I meant verbal mishandling. Asking all sorts of questions. What are you doing? Mapping. What mapping? We are making a map. Who asked you to make a map? We are volunteers. Who asked you to volunteer? What is that in your hand (pointing to the GPS)? What are you noting down in that pad? Ok, now the questions got a little too much and I was aware at the back of my mind that this was a residential area and somewhere there would be some board saying 'No Trespassing' and we could very well be qualified as trespassers. POIs notes were torn, handed over to Mr. QRT, a silently angry Nishant was pulled away and we lost half an hour worth of POIs and tracks. Oh! and did I mention the interview
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
paul youlten wrote: But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map. PY Paul I think you have a slightly narrow perspective of OSM. Yes, it has street in the title yes, it says /such as street maps /in the tag line, but it doesn't say 'only' street maps. Do you think parks, pubs, recycling centres etc shouldn't be mapped? If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping
Shalabh wrote: And because OSM does not have a blog... http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping
There I am caught unawares again!! Silly me :) Anyway, what is done is done. So long post will torture a lot of you and I hope please some of you. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Shalabh wrote: And because OSM does not have a blog... http://www.openstreetmap.org/diary ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: Oh! and did I mention the interview was never published No, really ? And what's that: http://www.aujourdhuilinde.com/actualites-inde-en-inde-les-cartographes-du-net-ont-la-vie-dure-4290.asp?1=1 from Anna Guzzini Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Dave F. wrote: This 'supports' needs clarifying. I added shop in osm2pgsql's default.style a while ago, but we haven't added any render rules for shop=* yet. Basically, because the planet isn't fully reimported every week, it takes some time for the key to be available to the main osm.org mapnik instance. Now that that has been done, we could add shop=* rules to mapnik, but steve8 might have some ideas on how he would like to approach that. Also, external users of the mapnik stylesheet and osm2pgsql's default.style could be in for a surprise if we move too quickly on new keys added to the conversion, and I think it's better to take a few weeks between adding it to osm2pgsql and adding the first rules, if there is no hurry otherwise. For example you list bridge=aqueduct as yes, yet it doesn't render. So what is the difference in meaning between support render? Apologize Steve. A bit of brain fade. I was thinking of viaduct, which clearly isn't listed. Yes, it is. It falls under bridge=*, i.e. every occurence of the bridge tag on certain highway types will render a bridge. This conveniently catches other exotic instances, like bridge=swing, bridge=span, etc. But as always, the devil is in the details, as there are numerous places where bridges are handled, in the mapnik stylesheet, and other places just look at bridge=yes/true/1 and not *. PS: Steve, it's best if you filtered the output to not show 'length'. That's not a key that's pulled from OSM. It's generated internally. Same goes for 'point', 'way_area' and 'z_order' -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Nasser not rendering
- Original Message - From: Peter Dörrie To: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: [OSM-talk] Lake Nasser not rendering Hi, what is the reason, that lake nasser in upper egypt is not rendering in Mapnik? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.96481lon=32.88516zoom=15layers=B000FTF There is new yahoo imagery available and I would like to refiine the lake, but would prefer solving the rende problem beforehand. Greetings, Peter It might be that the natural= water tag was missing from the multipolygon relation. I have just added it to see if it makes a difference. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: Yes, it is. It falls under bridge=*, i.e. every occurence of the bridge tag on certain highway types will render a bridge. This conveniently catches other exotic instances, like bridge=swing, bridge=span, etc. But as always, the devil is in the details, as there are numerous places where bridges are handled, in the mapnik stylesheet, and other places just look at bridge=yes/true/1 and not *. PS: Steve, it's best if you filtered the output to not show 'length'. That's not a key that's pulled from OSM. It's generated internally. Same goes for 'point', 'way_area' and 'z_order' Great, this is the kind of info I was hoping would turn up. With your rules for the different words that mean bridge, they would be a good candidate for standardising across renderers, right? List the rules in one place, then use them globally... Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
Dave, Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped. They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I agree: If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. ++ What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we lose invisible administrative boundaries and data from areas where public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent. For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a disaster that threatens the future of the project if these things are removed because of a change in the licence. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: paul youlten wrote: But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map. PY Paul I think you have a slightly narrow perspective of OSM. Yes, it has street in the title yes, it says /such as street maps /in the tag line, but it doesn't say 'only' street maps. Do you think parks, pubs, recycling centres etc shouldn't be mapped? If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. Cheers Dave F. -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Dave, Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped. They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I agree: If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. ++ What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we lose invisible administrative boundaries and data from areas where public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent. For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a disaster that threatens the future of the project if these things are removed because of a change in the licence. PY From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a death sentence. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Steve Bennett wrote: On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: Yes, it is. It falls under bridge=*, i.e. every occurence of the bridge tag on certain highway types will render a bridge. This conveniently catches other exotic instances, like bridge=swing, bridge=span, etc. But as always, the devil is in the details, as there are numerous places where bridges are handled, in the mapnik stylesheet, and other places just look at bridge=yes/true/1 and not *. I see. So, if I understand you correctly, highway=road,bridge=viaduct will display; but railway=rail,bridge=viaduct will not. Could you post the link to the stylesheet please PS: Steve, it's best if you filtered the output to not show 'length'. That's not a key that's pulled from OSM. It's generated internally. Same goes for 'point', 'way_area' and 'z_order' Great, this is the kind of info I was hoping would turn up. With your rules for the different words that mean bridge, they would be a good candidate for standardising across renderers, right? List the rules in one place, then use them globally... That seems a good idea Could you list be extended to show for which element the likes of bridge are/aren't rendered? Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:47 AM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a death sentence. I'll have to take your word for it. From my point of view, I think I'd rather see a 70% free project with 100% coverage, than a 100% free project with 70% coverage. I imagine there is a wide range of views on this topic. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Could you post the link to the stylesheet please Ok, I'll give it a quick rinse first. That seems a good idea Could you list be extended to show for which element the likes of bridge are/aren't rendered? By element do you mean node/way/area? I think in some cases that information is available. In theory, it's not too hard to attach any information from the surrounding XML structure, it's just a question of how clear that information is and how readily it can be deciphered. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
Peter, That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples? PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Dave, Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped. They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I agree: If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. ++ What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we lose invisible administrative boundaries and data from areas where public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent. For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a disaster that threatens the future of the project if these things are removed because of a change in the licence. PY From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a death sentence. Peter -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Could you post the link to the stylesheet please http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport/code Have fun! Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Peter, That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples? PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Dave, Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped. They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I agree: If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. ++ What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we lose invisible administrative boundaries and data from areas where public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent. For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a disaster that threatens the future of the project if these things are removed because of a change in the licence. PY From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a death sentence. Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage. X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the branch Joomla/Mambo I'm sure there are others Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
Dont see that as necessarily bad. If there is a fundamental difference in ideologies/beliefs of members, I think the project, in the longer term is better served by a split. Neither do I see it as a setback, its more like a step backward to take many steps forward for each of the splits. Regards, Shalabh On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Peter, That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples? PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Dave, Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped. They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I agree: If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. ++ What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we lose invisible administrative boundaries and data from areas where public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent. For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a disaster that threatens the future of the project if these things are removed because of a change in the licence. PY From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a death sentence. Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage. X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the branch Joomla/Mambo I'm sure there are others Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
Oh, so you are talking about a fork in an open source project. Of course I realised that you didn't really mean death but I thought you might mean that Liz Dodds and Talk-au were going to cut my nodes off. ;-) I was under the impression that a certain amount of forking was encouraged in open source development. Better to have two happy projects with happy communities, each doing their own thing than one miserable one where all we do is talk hyperbollocks about how we are going to get ripped off and what a disaster it is going to be if data has to be deleted. PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Peter, That sounds bad. Can you give us some examples? PY On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com: Dave, Clearly all those things, and much more, can and should be mapped. They can all be seen on the street and they all have public access. I agree: If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. ++ What is less clear is what happens if changing the licence means we lose invisible administrative boundaries and data from areas where public access is difficult, restricted or non-existent. For example would be nice to include the boundaries of a UK National Park or a site of special scientific interest or (dare I say it) the coastline of Australia - but I don't think it is a disaster that threatens the future of the project if these things are removed because of a change in the licence. PY From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a death sentence. Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage. X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the branch Joomla/Mambo I'm sure there are others Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage. X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the branch Joomla/Mambo I'm sure there are others Hum, the examples you are choosing are interesting but not for the reason you think. Please note that I am not advocating a fork far from it. In the two cases you cited, the fork is actually very strong, and there was very little damage. For X.org, I don't see where there was an halt in development. The first X.Org release came shortly after the split. In addition, a lot of people would tell you that the split happened because partly the development was getting nowhere, due the number of contributors being restricted to only a few people who didn't want to see much change. The license was just the extra thing that made the community fork the code. For Joomla/Mambo, you can see that Joomla never really stopped. Mambo was commercial and was ignoring the community, but most of the main devs were the one who actually forked the code. The main reason for the fork was a foundation take over. I would say that in both case the fork was a good thing. If you want an interesting example, you can always the case of Compiz, which had been forked and then remerged. I don't think we are near any of those scenarios for plenty of reasons, like the nature of the licence, the political situation, etc. I don't see the reason to propagate more fear than is actually needed. It is clear that if a fork happens either one of the branch dies (not necessarily the main one), or it will merge back later on at some point. There is always a cost to pay when you are forking but the effects are very hard to predict. You always have to wonder what the exact cost of forking, taking time to carefully evaluate why you want to fork or is it worth it in the first place? Can you talk about the subject, come to a compromise and so far? I haven't seen the foundation so far not trying to explain itself, and trying to move towards a compromise. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Getting boundaries from XAPI
Hello, I was trying to get boundaries (i.e. nodes, ways and relations making the county and cities limits) for my county from XAPI but cannot get exactly what I want. If I try /api/0.6/way[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*], I get every node and way fine, but the relations just come up empty. Also loadin this file in JOSM and updating the data does not get the members in the relations. If I try /api/0.6/relation[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*] I get a huge file with data completely outside the zone I requested (like nodes in Europe!) Any help on how to get the data I want would be appreciated. Thanks, N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: 2009/12/11 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage. X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the branch Joomla/Mambo I'm sure there are others Hum, the examples you are choosing are interesting but not for the reason you think. Please note that I am not advocating a fork far from it. In the two cases you cited, the fork is actually very strong, and there was very little damage. Hmm the Fork is strong? in the case of X XFree86 (ie the original) is almost unknown now. and the Fork meant many years of little or no development on what is the main graphics sub-system used across multiple operating systems. Project split for many reasons but I will never think that a split is or was a good thing. I would prefer in almost all cases one good tool for the job, instead of 3 tools that all do the same job badly. Lets work together rather than apart, our strength is in the Union. Peter Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Getting boundaries from XAPI
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Boundaries.pl maybe of help? On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 11:02 -0500, Nakor wrote: Hello, I was trying to get boundaries (i.e. nodes, ways and relations making the county and cities limits) for my county from XAPI but cannot get exactly what I want. If I try /api/0.6/way[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*], I get every node and way fine, but the relations just come up empty. Also loadin this file in JOSM and updating the data does not get the members in the relations. If I try /api/0.6/relation[bbox=-83.702,42.413,-83.069,42.905][boundary=*] I get a huge file with data completely outside the zone I requested (like nodes in Europe!) Any help on how to get the data I want would be appreciated. Thanks, N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/12/11 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: 2009/12/11 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org Hmm Maybe these have not all died but the split did cause serious damage. X (You now have a choice of X.org and XFree86), The split caused a long halt in development and the original is hardly used now, only the branch Joomla/Mambo I'm sure there are others Hum, the examples you are choosing are interesting but not for the reason you think. Please note that I am not advocating a fork far from it. In the two cases you cited, the fork is actually very strong, and there was very little damage. Hmm the Fork is strong? in the case of X XFree86 (ie the original) is almost unknown now. and the Fork meant many years of little or no development on what is the main graphics sub-system used across multiple operating systems. Project split for many reasons but I will never think that a split is or was a good thing. I would prefer in almost all cases one good tool for the job, instead of 3 tools that all do the same job badly. Lets work together rather than apart, our strength is in the Union. Peter Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I dont think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source projects have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it would be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom is all about. Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Hmm, just discovered that this line is causing Osmarender to show up with a lot more tags than it should: rule e=node|way k=power|tourism|amenity|man_made|shop|historic v=tower|hotel|hostel|information|camp_site|hospital|doctor|pharmacy|postoffice|pub|cafe|cinema|theatre|windmill|place_of_worship|parking|school|university|college|supermarket|bakery|organic|shelter|library|fire_station|fuel|recycling|toilets|drinking_water|bank|atm|bureau_de_change|museum|telephone|fast_food|restaurant layer=5 My code is correctly exploding out all the possibilities, even if power=bureau_de_change doesn't make a lot of sense... Not sure what to do about that one. Btw, I've tweaked the code a bit, all the tags are linked in the wiki now. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:54 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/12/11 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this. This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the tile server to get round this problem, You can only do that if you release the tiles under CC-BY-SA, which means that anyone else is free to extract the data from the tiles and use it under CC-BY-SA. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 4:12 AM, paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.comwrote: Saying This would be a disaster is a bit hyperbolic. Sure, people who hate OSMapping and just want to use bulk imports will be very, very disappointed, and possibly even a bit upset that they actually have to go out into the real world and make maps. ;-) I'd certainly be upset if someone told me that my office is not part of the real world and therefore I'm not allowed to use it to make maps! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:54 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/12/11 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Plus I think OSM is going to lose a huge chunk of the database over this. This would be a disaster, but some have already mentioned having a read only database with non-ODBL data and then combining it on the tile server to get round this problem, You can only do that if you release the tiles under CC-BY-SA, which means that anyone else is free to extract the data from the tiles and use it under CC-BY-SA. Isn't copyleft great! Real copyleft, not that ODbL crap. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.dewrote: E.g. I'd be happy to see things like Google use OSM data and mix it with any other source of data they can get their hands on, but only if improvements they make to the data (or they get from their customers) get fed back to OSM. How would you differentiate between edits that go to the OSM Data and edits that go to any other source? When you're talking about mixing the data, I think of some kind of layers. If a user now adds a POI, which layer is affected? Google could just drop this POI into their own layer so that it never reaches the OSM-Data? This way no improvements would have to go back. Most likely that's possible under the ODbL, since that'd be a produced work. I'm not sure if Google would try it or not, though, because the ODbL is pretty ambiguous. From one account (which I haven't verified), there's already OSM data in Google Maps. Ok, heres a question I have been meaning to ask for long. What is the big deal if the big, bad G takes a chunk of data from OSM and uses it? Do I care? No. If anything, I would be happy that we created something worthy to be used by a corporation. As long as they dont restrict me from using data on OSM, which they in no way cant, I dont have a problem. If they dont 'give back' to the community, big deal!! Any open source project anyway has lots of free riders. I am a free rider on Joomla, I just cant contribute anything there, I am inept at programming. I am sure there are people who just download maps from OSM onto their navigators and never turn back to give anything back. If they are not bad, why is Google so bad? And why is them using the data bad? Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:26 AM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: The downside of not requiring copyright assignment is that OSMF can't sue for copyright infringement of the data. I believe some other projects get around that by assigning the project as an agent for the purposes of engaging in a copyright infringement lawsuit. Not that I know the exact details or care to know them, as I think it'd be a terrible idea. They could still sue for breach of contract and possible infringement of the database rights (I'm not sure about that, I don't know enough about EU law). And the original contributors can't sue for breach of contract or infringement of the database rights, correct? In that sense, this is a lot *like* a copyright assignment. Especially since the ODbL only covers the database as a whole, not the individual contributions. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...
2009/12/11 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net Anthony schrieb: 2009/12/10 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net mailto: osm-l...@deelkar.net Anthony schrieb: That does it, I'm making a way with name=Northern Hemisphere. Or would that be name=equator. Doesn't work, does it? No, you can't put in the equator as a *closed* way, since the API doesn't allow the way to wrap around on lon+-180°. How does the API determine whether or not a way is closed? The first node is simply referenced a second time at the end. I know that's the standard, but what does that have to do with the API? Looking at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6, I don't see anything about this. As far as the API is concerned a way is a way is a way. There are no closed ways and open ways. I assumed (I guess incorrectly), that most software would interpret that as the shortest possible line - a line with a length of 2 degrees, not a line with a length of 358 degrees. Yes, your assumption was wrong, the software does no wrapping around at the 180° Meridian. (currently) When you say the software, is there a particular program you're talking about, or are you just referring to all the editors/renderers you know of? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...
2009/12/11 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net (JFTR: -180 and +180 degrees are valid longitudes.) So a way from -180 to +180 would be the equator, but the software wouldn't realize it's closed since -180=+180. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:26 AM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: The downside of not requiring copyright assignment is that OSMF can't sue for copyright infringement of the data. I believe some other projects get around that by assigning the project as an agent for the purposes of engaging in a copyright infringement lawsuit. Not that I know the exact details or care to know them, as I think it'd be a terrible idea. They could still sue for breach of contract and possible infringement of the database rights (I'm not sure about that, I don't know enough about EU law). And the original contributors can't sue for breach of contract or infringement of the database rights, correct? In that sense, this is a lot *like* a copyright assignment. Especially since the ODbL only covers the database as a whole, not the individual contributions. The original contributors do not own the database right so they have no basis for sueing. You have to rely on OSMF to protect your data. If OSMF doesn't protect your contributions you could try sueing them. But I think clause 6.2 of the Contributor Terms would make it very unlikely that you'd succeed. OSMF shall [not] be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, consequential, punitive, or exemplary damages under this Agreement, however caused and under any theory of liability. 80n ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OBbL and forks
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:05 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: And the original contributors can't sue for breach of contract or infringement of the database rights, correct? In that sense, this is a lot *like* a copyright assignment. Especially since the ODbL only covers the database as a whole, not the individual contributions. The original contributors do not own the database right so they have no basis for sueing. Yeah, that's what I thought. You have to rely on OSMF to protect your data. I rely on my backups to protect my data! ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to...
The resulting circle would only be the equator if it lay on the plane of the Earth's rotation, but I agree that the software probably wouldn't be happy about having the starting and ending points coincide. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Anthony o...@inbox.org Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:55:50 To: Dirk-Lüder Kreieosm-l...@deelkar.net Cc: Talk Openstreetmaptalk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] And the prize for the largest closed way goes to... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Getting boundaries from XAPI
Hello, you can try a HTTP POST request to OSM3S via http://78.46.81.38/api/interpreter with union id-query type=relation ref=359761/ recurse type=relation-way/ recurse type=way-node/ /union print mode=body/ E.g. paste the XML into a textfile req.xml and run wget --post-file=req.xml http://78.46.81.38/api/interpreter The result is a gzipped XML file. Or just open http://78.46.81.38/ and paste the request into an arbitrary text field. Cheers, Roland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Am 11.12.2009 11:13, schrieb Steve Bennett: Hi all, I've been showing my progress on this task to the tag list, but now that I have a pretty table, I'll show it here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport This table shows whether the main OSM stylesheets in each of Mapnik and Osmarenderer support each of the given tags. The definition of support is pretty flimsy: basically I'm just scanning for expressions like wetland='bog'. Still, I think it gives a bit of an idea. Would love to hear from anyone who thinks this is useful, or would like to suggest the next steps (ie, potlatch, merkaartor...) What about the JOSM map display rules? You'll find the style file at: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/trunk/styles/standard/elemstyles.xml There's a small help about the format at the start of that file, just ask if there are further questions. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Results of the opinion poll about Odbl for OSM
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: For the 340+ who replied, we have: 30% yes, I will accept the new license Odbl 45% yes and consider all my data Public domain (no restrictions) 3% no, I will not accept the new license Odbl but I will if the license is reworked 10% no, I will not accept the new license Odbl and wants to continue with the CC-BY-SA2.0 license 12% I don't know yet because I don't understand the new license or the possible consequences So the number of people actually opposed to the Odbl is somewhere between 10 and 25%. That's a great result. (In the sense that unanimity is great.) I dunno, depends if it's closer to 10% or 25%. 75% in favor of the change is about the worst possible result. It's enough in favor that the change will probably go through, but enough opposed to cause a significant fracture to the community. Of course, I think the numbers in opposition are closer to 10% than 25%. And the numbers strongly in opposition are probably less than 5%. The big question is how many people won't respond at all, and, perhaps more importantly, what fraction of the database that makes impossible to relicense. Based on the poll numbers, with 340 out of 100,000+ responding, that leaves that number between 0% and 99.9966%. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Shalabh wrote: While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I dont think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source projects have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it would be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom is all about. Honestly I'm happy to have GoogleMap as the competitor. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On 11/12/2009 16:16, Peter Childs wrote: Hmm the Fork is strong? in the case of X XFree86 (ie the original) is almost unknown now. and the Fork meant many years of little or no development on what is the main graphics sub-system used across multiple operating systems. In the case of XFree86, everybody abandoned it very quickly because of the way they did the licence change. As soon as it was forked, some major distribution switched to X.Org. XFree86 was already pretty much dead due to the way they restricted development. I don't know where you have seen no development. One of the first thing that X.Org was to unmerge all the unmaintanable libraries that were merged into the X windowing system. It came very quickly. There were lots of development but none or little on XFree86. Honestly, this is one of the worse example you could have chosen. The fork happened in early 2004 and by september 2004, you already had two releases. Lots of projects that were stuck suddenly could be implemented like compositing. Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Shalabh wrote: While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I dont think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source projects have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it would be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom is all about. Honestly I'm happy to have GoogleMap as the competitor. Sorry, google is anyway not the only competitor. India already has mapmyindia offering maps and navigation instruments. Need I say, OSM is nowhere near being used for that because we have so little data. I am sure all geographies have their own local competition as well. So, a market with 2 competitors (OSM and Google) is neither real, nor possible. The world as a maket for mapping and geodata based applications is too large to be served by the bad G and the good OSM. I dont have any delusions about OSM's grandeur. So, the faster we reconcile to the difference of opinion we seem to have on the license issue, the faster we move forward, whether forked or not. Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Shalabh shalab...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Shalabh wrote: While I am not advocating a fork (I am anyway voting a yes to ODBL), I dont think a single community is always the answer. Single communities tend to get static for the lack of competition. All successful open source projects have parallels, whether through forking or because of different organic origins. So I dont think if OSM has a parallel because of forking, it would be bad. Gives people more choices to choose from and thats what freedom is all about. Honestly I'm happy to have GoogleMap as the competitor. Sorry, google is anyway not the only competitor. Nor are they a competitor in the first place. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] My Experiments with Mapping
On Friday 11 Dec 2009 6:57:27 pm Shalabh wrote: cal faces of huge Himalayan rock, 25 metres apart. And my GPS says the error is +-53 metres. Where do you suppose it showed me? Somewhere drilled into the mountain rock? Perhaps. The error went upto 96 metres and then the altimeter lost 100 metres while I was climbing. you can buy a sparcsystems logger which in ideal conditions is accurate to a metre - it has a magnetic antenna with a 3 metre cord which you can stick on the roof of your car and a bell push for marking waypoints which you can fix to your steering wheel. It costs around 7500 -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: What about the JOSM map display rules? You'll find the style file at: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/trunk/styles/standard/elemstyles.xml Brilliant! With about 10 minutes' effort, I've added a third column. Looks like JOSM supports dozen of specific tags (shop=, sport=...) the others don't. Which sort of makes sense: the editor helps you encode lots of specific information, only some of which is worth rendering. (Although long term you'd like to see all this info somehow rendered, or at least accessible through one or more map views). http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] indic fonts in mapnik, JOSM and Potlatch
hi, I have been searching for a way to render indic fonts in OSM/mapnik for some months and have posted here and elsewhere without result. Today I discovered something called GNU unifont which has glyphs for all known languages. Apparently this is used in the official OSM/Mapnik renderer. Anyway I compiled mapnik with support for this font, and am able to render all languages. If some kind soul could compile support for this in JOSM and Potlatch, it would be of extreme help to us - currently all we see is little boxes when entering text. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk-nl] Fwd: Galileo Application Days, Brussels, March 2010
Misschien nog voor wat mensen hier... Originele bericht Onderwerp: Galileo Application Days, Brussels, March 2010 Datum: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:12:34 +0100 Van:Anwendungszentrum GmbH Oberpfaffenhofen i...@anwendungszentrum.de Antwoord-naar: i...@anwendungszentrum.de Aan:dekon...@kinkrsoftware.nl 1st Announcement GALILEO Application Days *Don't miss this unique event where you will have the opportunity to:* *Participate!* Learn how to get involved in the /European Satellite Navigation Competition 2010 (ESNC)/, which will kick-off its 7th, bigger than ever, edition. *Experience!* Live demonstrations of cutting-edge applications developed for global satellite navigation systems (GNSS) under the EU's 7th Research Framework Programme (FP7), former ESNC Competitions, the ESA Technology Transfer Programme, national and regional initiatives and more in the 'Applications Village'. *Learn!* Get information from the experts from around the globe, benefit from key sector market updates, SME training and much more. *Connect!* Meet, network and form partnerships with other companies and organisations. *Dream!* Create, brainstorm, and exchange ideas. *Build the future!* *When?* 3-5 March 2010 *Where?*Charlemagne Conference Centre, Address: Charlemagne Building, 170 Rue de la Loi (Wetstraat), BE-1049 Brussels, Belgium _*Day 1: Wednesday, 3 March*_ * Global GNSS Leaders Roundtable * SME Venture Academy expert coaching * Live demonstrations of new GNSS products services in the /Applications Village/ * Galileo Applications Day exhibition * Press event _*Day 2: Thursday, 4 March*_ * European Satellite Navigation Competition (ESNC) 2010 Kick-off * Financing Innovation * 'Battle of the Sectors': Find out the latest developments in GNSS uptake and success in key business sectors * Live demonstrations of new GNSS products services in the /Applications Village/ * Application exhibition * Networking Cocktail _*Day 3: Friday, 5 March*_ * Market Overviews, Industry keynotes, Success Stories, demonstrations, elevator pitches, and more! Mark your calendar! 3-5 March 2010: GALILEO APPLICATIONS DAYS, Brussels http://www.application-days.eu Imprint http://www.application-days.eu/index.php?kat=imprint.htmlanzeige=imprint.html Newsletter subscription mailto:marsch...@anwendungszentrum.de?subject=newsletter subscription unsubscribe Newsletter mailto:marsch...@anwendungszentrum.de?subject=unsubscribe Newsletter Anwendungszentrum GmbH Oberpfaffenhofen Friedrichshafener Str. 1 D-82205 GilchingTel: +49 (0) 8105-77 2 77-10 Fax: +49 (0) 8105-77 2 77-55 e-mail: i...@anwendungszentrum.de mailto:i...@anwendungszentrum.de Internet: www.anwendungszentrum.de http://www.anwendungszentrum.de European GNSS Supervisory Authority (GSA) Rue de la Loi, 56 B-1049 Brussels Tel: + 32 (0) 2 297 16 16 Fax: + 32 (0) 2 296 72 38 e-mail: i...@gsa.europa.eu mailto:i...@gsa.europa.eu Internet: www.gsa.europa.eu http://www.gsa.europa.eu/ ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, Arie Paap wrote: How should duplicates which are already in OSM (but weren't close enough to be picked up when processed) be dealt with? For example BP Bellevue: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8941lon=116.0263zoom=17layers=B000 FTF (both appear on southern side of Great Eastern Hwy if your browser window is wide enough; Node 332954025 is at the correct location). Should information be transferred to older node or should the new node be moved to correct position and old one deleted? Arie. P.S. Apologies to John for duplicate sent directly to him. the one i did i dragged the node to the surveyed place, merged the two, and left the source as bp?; survey i then looked for one at blanchetown, and there was no new bp at blanchetown, so either its not bp any more, or because the node was close the new data has not been imported ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/11 Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com: How should duplicates which are already in OSM (but weren't close enough to be picked up when processed) be dealt with? For example BP Bellevue: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8941lon=116.0263zoom=17layers=B000FTF (both appear on southern side of Great Eastern Hwy if your browser window is wide enough; Node 332954025 is at the correct location). Should information be transferred to older node or should the new node be moved to correct position and old one deleted? Actually some people have drawn an area and labelled it as amenity=fuel as well. As you pointed out, there is 2 options, you can copy the details and delete the new node, or you can move the new node and delete the old node, either should be fine. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/11 James Livingston doc...@mac.com: http://apps.nowwhere.com.au/caltex/austlocator/search.aspx I wouldn't bother with nowwhere, it's a mapds website and they are most likely hosting the data on behalf of caltex, and so they probably wouldn't be able or willing to release the data. http://www.shell.com.au/home/content/aus/products_services/on_the_road/shell_station_locator/site_locator.html http://apps.exxonmobil.com.au/apps/htm/mn_mobil_products_stations.asp After we've done fuel stations what about fast food locations? :) Then you have supermarket chains, and so on. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] National Public Toilet Map released under restrictive licence
2009/12/11 Liz ed...@billiau.net: a clear piece of evidence that getting Au data licensed for ODbL is going to be like pushing excreta uphill As James pointed out, CC-BY should be compatible, if all the other data on the site is licensed as such why wasn't this data set? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fwd: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
On 11/12/2009, at 8:02 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: so we don't need imported data? In most cases we don't need imported data, but it can be useful. For example rather than painstakingly crafting the entire coastline of Australia from a few GPS traces and a lot of imagery (much is relatively inaccessible), we can import it from someone's dataset and spend that large amount of time doing other things to improve OSM that we can't import data for. There are also some things where importing external datasets is the *only* way to get it into OSM. For example boundaries of areas that have no physical edge, just a (not necessarily straight) line on someone decided on at some point in time. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fwd: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business
2009/12/11 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: so we don't need imported data? -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why PD is not better for business Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 From: paul youlten paul.youl...@gmail.com To: Liz ed...@billiau.net Liz, The coastline I did back in the old days was between Hastings in Sussex and Folkestone in Kent. I did this by walking along the high tide mark with my GPS. Bits of coastline that were inaccessible (e.g: Harbors, cliffs and off shore islands) were done with the assistance of Yahoo Aerial photos. Ok Paul, when you have enough time and energy to map 34,218 kilometres (21,262 mi) of coastline (excluding all offshore islands) of Australia let us know, in the mean time we will be making do with the imported data we have. We also don't have access to aerial imagery except a small fraction of the 7.8 million sq km of land mass, although with your help/donations I'm sure we could possibly get some more. In short put your money where your mouth is. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] National Public Toilet Map released under restrictive licence
2009/12/11 Liz ed...@billiau.net On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, Alex (Maxious) Sadleir wrote: The long awaited National Public Toilet Map has been released in XML (but not under CC-BY like many reports recommended) @ http://data.australia.gov.au/610 Instead, it's a click through licence that amongst other Proprietary terms requires anybody with database access to accept these terms again (but viewing generated map tiles is okay): 3.2 You may not sublicense your rights under these Terms to any person. If you require another person to access the Database for the Permitted Purpose (including a person you engage to design or build a Derivative Product on your behalf), that person must obtain a copy of the Database from the www.australia.gov.au website and comply with the Terms of this licence. Two steps forward, one step back. - Alex a clear piece of evidence that getting Au data licensed for ODbL is going to be like pushing excreta uphill I may be reading it wrong, but getting the data to work with cc-by-sa would not be possible either. Essentially, with OSM, you are doing sublicensing all the time due to the way it is working. But I could be understanding wrongly. In the case of Google, since they don't give you access to the database, it doesn't matter. I don't think it is here an odbl problem. Emilie Laffray ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/11 Liz ed...@billiau.net: i then looked for one at blanchetown, and there was no new bp at blanchetown, so either its not bp any more, or because the node was close the new data has not been imported I think you found it, unless you mean there is 2 BPs at Blanchetown? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, you wrote: 2009/12/11 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, you wrote: i then looked for one at blanchetown, and there was no new bp at blanchetown, so either its not bp any more, or because the node was close the new data has not been imported Or the geodata is wrong and the node is 10km away. or they moved it 10km in the last year?? I'm yet to see any of the geo data being correct, they're all guesstimates based on the street address fed to the geolocation code. If the address is on a corner then the node will be sitting on a corner (eg the wagga one) but if the address is really helpful like Sturt Highway Blanchetown it could be anywhere. -- BOFH excuse #153: Big to little endian conversion error ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Qld police stations - potential OSM bulk import
Hi,
I think I have found a good datasource for OSM, but I've run out of
steam trying to manipulate it. If there is agreement the data is
useful and legitimate; similar to the BP import, I wondered if I could
ask for help, perhaps reapplying Johns' BP import code/procedure to
this dataset?
Queensland Police Stations XML File at :
http://drop.io/8j7bxdi/asset/extractedpoliceqld-xml
The data is all Queensland police stations, as listed on
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/station-locator/stationIndex.asp
There are also index pages to police shops and neighbourhood beats,
but I have ignored these.
The Copyright statement at http://www.police.qld.gov.au/copyright.htm
says that QPS are keen on reuse, and just want attribution, which I
thought might be easily achieved via a source tag(?)
Each station has a code, which links to a dynamic page with more detail.
Once you have a station code from the index page you can retrieve and
parse the source from a URL like this:
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/station-locator/station_locator.asp?code=${code}
For OSM purposes, as well as the station pages visible data (name,
phone number, address, suburb), within the source for each station
HTML page, the Qld police are supplying a lat and lon to whereis for
them to use for icon placement in an embedded map on the page, I've
checked a few of these and they appear quite accurate, (i.e. not
geocoded from an address).
I made an attempt at extracting the police station data from HTML into
the pseudo-XML file at
http://drop.io/8j7bxdi/asset/extractedpoliceqld-xml
(some manual and some automated work), but got stuck:
1) What format to transform it to - OSM? with what tags? how?
2) Would be great to generate a fixme tag generated HTML page,
(similar to the the BP one) for people to easily jump to PotLatch and
check/review
3) de-duplication if station already there (merging etc?)
A possible output tag template(?):
node id='-1' action='create' visible='true' lat='${lat}' lon='${lon}'
tag k='amenity' v='police' /
tag k='phone' v='${phone}' /
tag k='name' v='${name}' /
tag k='QueenslandPolice:stationId' v='${code}' /
tag k='QueenslandPolice:address' v='${address}' /
tag k='QueenslandPolice:suburb' v='${suburb}' /
tag k='fixme' v='not_reviewed' /
tag k='source' v='Queensland Police Service' /
tag k='website'
v='http://www.police.qld.gov.au/station-locator/station_locator.asp?code=${code}'
/
/node
So, in short, I can't finish what I have started; If there is
agreement the data is useful and legitimate, could I hand it over to
someone else to import? :-)
Cheers,
Chris
___
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Re: [talk-au] Blanchetown
On 09/12/2009, at 11:57 PM, Mark Pulley wrote: On 08/12/2009, at 12:27 AM, Nick Hocking wrote: BTW, my new years resolution is to survey Gundagai. It's a total discrace, It was traced and has never been visited and SURVEYED properly. I did some GPS traces of some streets in Gundagai in November, but I haven't had the chance to add the data yet. I've just finished editing Gundagai from my GPS traces and voice recordings. I've fixed the positions of some streets, added some new streets and added some names. Still some naming to go (I didn't have time to do any more when I was there), so it's not as disgraceful as it was before! http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-35.0677lon=148.1079zoom=14 Mark P. --- They offered to transport me back to any point in history that I would care to go, and so I had them send me back to last Thursday night, so I could pay my phone bill on time. (Weird Al Yankovic, Everything You Know Is Wrong) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Qld police stations - potential OSM bulk import
2009/12/11 Chris Barham cbar...@pobox.com:
Hi,
I think I have found a good datasource for OSM, but I've run out of
steam trying to manipulate it. If there is agreement the data is
useful and legitimate; similar to the BP import, I wondered if I could
ask for help, perhaps reapplying Johns' BP import code/procedure to
this dataset?
Queensland Police Stations XML File at :
http://drop.io/8j7bxdi/asset/extractedpoliceqld-xml
Not sure if you dropped decimal places or not, but some locations only
has 2 decimal places which are only good to the nearest km
The data is all Queensland police stations, as listed on
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/station-locator/stationIndex.asp
There are also index pages to police shops and neighbourhood beats,
but I have ignored these.
Any reason you ignored these?
The Copyright statement at http://www.police.qld.gov.au/copyright.htm
says that QPS are keen on reuse, and just want attribution, which I
thought might be easily achieved via a source tag(?)
That just means:
attributation=Qld Police
1) What format to transform it to - OSM? with what tags? how?
.osm file format makes it easy to import because you just load it into
JOSM and then tell JOSM to upload all points at once.
2) Would be great to generate a fixme tag generated HTML page,
(similar to the the BP one) for people to easily jump to PotLatch and
check/review
This is fairly trivial to do.
3) de-duplication if station already there (merging etc?)
This is should be a lot easier than amenity=fuel since you don't have
competing companies located next to each other.
A possible output tag template(?):
node id='-1' action='create' visible='true' lat='${lat}' lon='${lon}'
tag k='amenity' v='police' /
tag k='phone' v='${phone}' /
tag k='name' v='${name}' /
tag k='QueenslandPolice:stationId' v='${code}' /
tag k='QueenslandPolice:address' v='${address}' /
tag k='QueenslandPolice:suburb' v='${suburb}' /
tag k='fixme' v='not_reviewed' /
tag k='source' v='Queensland Police Service' /
tag k='website'
v='http://www.police.qld.gov.au/station-locator/station_locator.asp?code=${code}'
/
/node
So, in short, I can't finish what I have started; If there is
agreement the data is useful and legitimate, could I hand it over to
someone else to import? :-)
There is already some police stations tagged in the DB, so I don't see
why it wouldn't be useful,
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Re: [Talk-de] Unverbindliche Umfrage zum Lizenzwechsel
Hallo, Ulf Lamping wrote: Mit der Lizenzänderung geben die Mapper der OSMF die Mittel in die Hand, nach Gutdünken (im Rahmen des nicht jeder Mist) die Lizenz nach ihren Vorstellungen umzuformen. Aktuell muß eine weitgehende Einstimmigkeit der Mapper für einen Lizenzwechsel vorhanden sein, sonst sind zu viele Daten weg. Demnächst reicht eine zähneknirschende 50% Zustimmung der aktiven Mapper aus (wobei die 50% nichtmal explizit erwähnt werden). approved by at least a majority vote of active contributors finde ich ziemlich klar, und was genau als active gilt, ist im Contributor Agreement auch exakt beschrieben, damit es da keinen Streit gibt. Ausserdem muss es immer eine free and open license sein. Die OSMF möchte mit dieser Regelung künftige Lizenzwechsel für alle erträglicher gestalten - was ich verstehen kann, da ansonsten bei jedem zukünftigen Lizenzwechsel die Daten von Leuten gelöscht werden müssen die nicht mehr erreichbar sind (Tod, kein Interesse mehr, ...). Wie aber die OSMF und deren Interessen in 5 Jahren aussieht, weiß kein Mensch. Ulkigerweise ist diese Lizenzwechselklausel ja gerade eine Reaktion auf Kritiker der ODbL. OSMF: Super, wir machen ODbL! Kritiker: Seid ihr wahnsinnig, die Lizenz ist voellig neu und unerprobt! OSMF: Ok, dann bauen wir eine Backup-Klausel ein, die uns im Notfall den Lizenzwechsel erlaubt. Es steht der Vorschlag im Raum, diese Klausel zeitlich zu befristen, also dass man z.B. sagt, dass die OSMF noch bis zum 31.12.2010 die Lizenz aendern koennte und danach nicht mehr oder so. Zusaetzlich zu dieser Klausel hat die ODbL ja selbst auch noch einen eingebauten Upgrade-Pfad, der es ermoeglicht, die Daten automatisch unter einer neuen Version der ODbL oder unter einer dazu kompatiblen Lizenz zu publizieren. Fuer *diese* Art der Lizenzerweiterung benoetigt es kein zusaetzliches Contributor Agreement; kleinere Bugs in der ODbL koennten also problemlos in einer ODbL 1.1 ausgebuegelt werden. Die grosse Lizenzaenderungsklausel im Contributor Agreement ist tatsaechlich nur fuer gravierende Probleme gedacht, an die eigentlich niemand glaubt. Vermutlich kann man auch einfach auf sie verzichten. Ich möchte in diesem Zusammenhang auch daran erinnern, daß Navteq und Teleatlas jeweils für mehrere Milliarden! Euro den Besitzer gewechselt haben. Die OSMF könnte da in Zukunft durchaus ein lohnendes Ziel einer feindlichen Übernahme werden. Aber spiel' das doch mal im Kopf durch. Angenommen, Google wuerde seine Mitarbeiter in die OSMF spuelen. Zunaechst einmal ist es so, dass technisch gesehen die OSMF der Aufnahme neuer Mitglieder zustimmen muss; das wurde bislang nicht gemacht, aber wenn jetzt 1000 Google-Mitarbeiter kommen, koennte man das ja erwaegen. Angenommen, G. bekommt trotzdem eine Mehrheit in der OSMF. Voellig unabhaengig von jeder Lizenz haette G. nun zum Beispiel die Moeglichkeit, www.openstreetmap.org auf eine Seite umzulenken, auf der steht: OpenStreetMap ist jetzt Google Map Maker. Klicken Sie hier, um sich an diesem aufregenden Projekt weiter zu beteiligen und Ihre Daten fuer Google Map Maker freizuschalten plus Kleingedrucktem, das alle Rechte an Google abtritt. Dagegen hilft Dir keine Lizenz, weder die alte noch die neue noch irgendeine andere. Wieviel Prozent der OSM-User wuerden das ablehnen - 10%? 20%? Auf jeden Fall keine ueberwiegende Mehrheit, die wuerden das vermutlich gar nicht merken, wenn es geschickt gemacht ist. Ist es vor einem solchen Hintergrund wirklich wichtig, sich gegen das Risiko einer Lizenzaenderung durch feindliche Uebernahme abzusichern, wenn eine feindliche Uebernahme so viele andere Moeglichkeiten hat? In der Präambel dieser Umfrage steht ganz deutlich, dass die Daten gelöscht bzw. versteckt werden (was equivalent ist) ist es nicht; Na ja, für jemanden der mit Nein stimmt ist der Effekt nahezu identisch. Wenn einer nicht zustimmt, koennen seine Daten in ein Extra-Repository kommen, wo sie nach wie vor beliebig lang zugreifbar sind und auch zum Rendern von Karten herangezogen werden koennen. Sie sind nur nicht mehr so leicht zu aendern - sie werden der Dynamik der Community entzogen. Du versuchst das ganze Thema ausgewogen rüberzubringen was ich sehr gut finde. Auf der englischen talk Liste ist die Diskussion leider wesentlich weniger ausgewogen. Allerdings zu allen Seiten. Es gibt auf der englischen Talk-Liste unglaublich viele ganz verschiedene Meinungen. Darunter beispielsweise auch die eines Amerikaners, der sagt: CC-BY-SA waere in meinem Land nicht wirksam gewesen, ich konnte die Daten benutzen wie ich wollte. Mit der ODbL wollt ihr nun diese Freiheit durch einen Vertrag einschraenken, das ist unmoralisch, bei der CC-BY-SA ging es darum, Freiheit zu gewaehren fuer die Laender, in denen das noetig ist, und bei der ODbL geht es darum, Freiheiten einzuschraenken. - Eine witzige Haltung, wenn man bedenkt, dass die meisten in OSM die Tatsache, dass
Re: [Talk-de] Unverbindliche Umfrage zum Lizenzwechsel
Am Freitag 11 Dezember 2009 01:43:39 schrieb André Reichelt: ich habe einfach ein Problem damit, dass SteveC im Vorstand sitzt und GLEICHZEITIG eine Firme betreibt, die mit OSM Geld verdienen möchte. Jippi, nur noch picklige Schüler ohne Perspektive an die Macht! Mal ehrlich, im Vorstand erwarte ich Leute, die sich *wirklich* für OSM, Geodaten und so Kram interessieren. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit dass jemand der sich richtig doll für etwas interessiert und Ahnung von etwas hat dies dann auch beruflich macht, ist eher groß. D.h. ohne nachzuforschen glaube ich, dass die meisten OSMF-Vorstände zumindest indirekt Geld mit etwas verdienen was OSM sehr nahe steht. Gruß, Bernd -- »Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten« - Walter Ulbricht (SED), 1961 »Es hat niemand vor, einen Überwachunsstaat in Deutschland zu errichten« - Wolfgang Bosbach (CDU), 2007 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Unverbindliche Umfrage zum Lizenzwechsel
Am 11. Dezember 2009 09:13 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Ich möchte in diesem Zusammenhang auch daran erinnern, daß Navteq und Teleatlas jeweils für mehrere Milliarden! Euro den Besitzer gewechselt haben. Die OSMF könnte da in Zukunft durchaus ein lohnendes Ziel einer feindlichen Übernahme werden. Aber spiel' das doch mal im Kopf durch. Angenommen, Google wuerde seine Mitarbeiter in die OSMF spuelen. Zunaechst einmal ist es so, dass technisch gesehen die OSMF der Aufnahme neuer Mitglieder zustimmen muss; das wurde bislang nicht gemacht, aber wenn jetzt 1000 Google-Mitarbeiter kommen, koennte man das ja erwaegen. Angenommen, G. bekommt trotzdem eine Mehrheit in der OSMF. Voellig unabhaengig von jeder Lizenz haette G. nun zum Beispiel die Moeglichkeit, www.openstreetmap.org auf eine Seite umzulenken, auf der steht: OpenStreetMap ist jetzt Google Map Maker. Klicken Sie hier, um sich an diesem aufregenden Projekt weiter zu beteiligen und Ihre Daten fuer Google Map Maker freizuschalten plus Kleingedrucktem, das alle Rechte an Google abtritt. Dagegen hilft Dir keine Lizenz, weder die alte noch die neue noch irgendeine andere. Wieviel Prozent der OSM-User wuerden das ablehnen - 10%? 20%? Auf jeden Fall keine ueberwiegende Mehrheit, die wuerden das vermutlich gar nicht merken, wenn es geschickt gemacht ist. Ist es vor einem solchen Hintergrund wirklich wichtig, sich gegen das Risiko einer Lizenzaenderung durch feindliche Uebernahme abzusichern, wenn eine feindliche Uebernahme so viele andere Moeglichkeiten hat? Ist dies nach dem Gesellschafter-Vertrag überhaupt möglich? http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Memorandum_of_Association ... 3.1 OpenStreetMap Foundation is dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free geospatial data and to providing geospatial data for anybody to use and share. ... Das von dir angesprochene Beispiel, kommt in Deutschland eher eine Auflösung des alten Unternehmes und einer anschließenden Neugründung mit der selben Marke gleich. Ciao André ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Strassenverzeichnis.XLS für OSM-Wiki
Thomas Reincke wrote: Gib die Liste und die Relation ID der Grenze doch an Flohoff, dann packt er es in seine Auswertung mit rein. http://osm.gt.owl.de/Strassenliste/ zumindest auf Korrekturwünsche scheint er nicht mehr zu reagieren und die Übersichtskarte ist seit Ende November nicht mehr aktualisiert. http://osm.gt.owl.de/Strassenliste/images/ Schade. Er hat gerade beruflich sehr viel zu tun, ich hatte ihn nämlich auf dem lokalen Usertreffen auf die Problematik angesprochen. Ich glaube aber das er letzlich Korrekturen eingearbeitet hat, bin mir aber nicht sicher. Matthias ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Unverbindliche Umfrage zum Lizenzwechsel
Hallo, André Riedel wrote: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Memorandum_of_Association ... 3.1 OpenStreetMap Foundation is dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free geospatial data and to providing geospatial data for anybody to use and share. ... Ich bin sicher, dass man diese Bestimmung entweder geeignet auslegen oder mit ausreichender Mehrheit abschaffen kann, wenn einem wirklich etwas daran gelegen ist - und dass das wesentlich einfacher waere, als einige zigtausend aktive Mapper aus dem Aermel zu schuetteln, um eine Abstimmung zu gewinnen. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
