Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Updated geocoding community guideline proposal
I thought I'd throw in my $0.02 into the discussion as well. First of all, I think it is good that we are having this discussion and I hope that eventually we can come to a OSMF sanction conclusion (set of community guidelines) one way or another. Overall, I think the route via produced works is the correct way to go here. For reverse geocoding I think declaring things as produced work is pretty well justified. The process is to take a geographic coordinate as input. This input is then turned, with the help of a bunch of complex algorithms(e.g. nominatum), into a (textual) rendering of an extract of the openstreetmap data. This textual rendering is then stored and eventually displayed to a human observer. This is nearly exactly equivalent to the process of rendering map tiles. I.e. you take four geographic coordinates (bounding box) as input. This input is then turned, with the help of a bunch of complex algorithms (e.g. mapnik), into a (bitmap) rendering of an extract of the openstreetmap data. This bitmap rendering is then stored and eventually displayed to a human observer. Given that map tiles are universally considered as produced works, so should imho be the result of reverse geocoding. As such, this should then also not trigger share-a-like. Just like one could take a proprietary database, use the stored lat/lon values in that database and render a 256x256 pixel image of the map for each entry of the database and store it back into the proprietary database without infecting the database with the ODbL share-a-like, one should be able to do the same with reverse geocoding. Imho anything that is intended for (more or less) direct consumption by humans is a produced work. For forward geocoding, the picture gets a bit more murky though, as the distinction between what is for human consumption and what is data, and thus a derived database, is much less clear cut. If you geocode an address and then all you do with the the resulting lat/lon is to display it in some form, then that is imho clearly also a produced work and thus shields things from the ODbL share-a-like requirement. However, once you start manipulating and computing with those lat/lon values. E.g. to calculate the average distance between all of the POIs in your proprietary db, the definition of produced work probably starts breaking down, because the output of the geocoding process is no longer the end product. Where exactly that line is though between produced work and derived database, I am not sure is obvious, and thus the intention of making the license clearer would unfortunately not really be achieved. Generally, I would consider my self as a proponent of share-a-like, but at least to me personally, I would consider all of the use cases presented in the proposed community guidelines as acceptable and within the spirit of share-a-like requirement for the OSM database. But it probably needs a bit more explanation of what you can and cannot do with the derived lat/lon values of the geocoding process. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-Updated-geocoding-community-guideline-proposal-tp5811077p5811672.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Updated geocoding community guideline proposal
Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote So the way I see it, if there's any (substantial) addition of external geo-data along the way, then that addition creates a derivative database, before the produced work is created. So if you want to publicly use this database (or any produced work based on it) then either the derivative database must be shared-alike, or the algorithm used to produce it and any additional input data must be shared. In the case of any substanitial amount of geocoding, you are clearly having to add additional geographic data to the OSM data in order to do the geocoding. I would interpret it as quite the opposite and you are not adding any substantial amount of geographical information. You do query the db with external geo-data. But if the geocoder gives you a result, the information was (in this form) already in the OSM database and so you haven't added anything. If the data was not already in the OSM database, then the geocoder will not spit out any result and thus you haven't created any derived database (or anything else for that matter). So in either case, the result(s) from the geocoding process are pure OpenStreetMap data and there is no additional external geo-data added to the output. Therefore this process then also does not trigger the share-a-like clause in it self. And so as long as you don't use the resultant lat/lon in a way incompatible with the definition of produced work, geocoding itself is fine. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-Updated-geocoding-community-guideline-proposal-tp5811077p5811673.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths
Toby Murray-2 wrote Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself. I have struggled with how best to map sidewalks in the US as well. In european cities my impression is that sidewalks are generally directly attached as part of the road, and they are typically just another (special) lane. So there you typically don't map the sidewalks as separate. Footways in those settings generally are real footways and thus deserve the prominence the style sheet gives them. But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much more detached from the road with wide grass strips between them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road. So there it makes more sense to map them as separate OSM ways rather than to use a sidewalk key on the main road. However, the separate ways also can have disadvantages for pedestrian routing. As a pedestrian, I would typically just cross a (non busy) road where ever I need to. If the sidewalks and roads are mapped separately, the router can't just tell you to cross the road though, but needs to route you to the next mapped intersection. One also needs to add a number of connection ways between roads and sidewalks which in that form doesn't really exist in reality, making the maps look even more messy. Not sure there is an ideal solution for this and we will likely see both explicit footway mapping and mapping as part of the road. It would still be good to come to somewhat more of a consensus on the topic though. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Sidewalks-as-footpaths-tp5804729p5804760.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-de] OSM --- Wikipedia
Hallo, Wie Peter bereits geschrieben hat, verwenden externe Seiten haeufig ihre eigenen Renderserver um die Kartenkacheln zu erstellen anstelle von denen von osm.org zu verwenden. Das hat mehrere Gruende: 1) Auch wenn es prinzipiel jedem offen steht die Kartenkacheln von osm.org direkt in drittseiten Einzubinden und osmf und deren sysadmins inzwischen einige Muehe in eine moeglichst leistungsfaehige Tileinfrastruktur investieren, sind die zur Verfuegung stehenden Resourcen dennoch limitiert. Desshalb gibt es Regeln das beliebte Seiten die tiles nicht direkt verwenden sollten um sicher zu stellen das die Server nicht ueberlastet werden. 2) Die Kacheln in der Wikipedia sind leicht angepasst und sind in einigen Sprachen der Wikipedia auf die jeweilige Landessprache angepasst. Das heist Namen auf der Karte werden nicht in der jeweils nativen Sprache der Namen sonder in der Sprache der Wikipedia angezeigt. Um diese Modifikationen vorzunehmen werden die Kacheln desshalb auf einem Server der Wikimedia gerendert. Allerdings ist das nur ein experimental Server der bereits recht alt ist. Insofern reicht die Leistung des Servers nicht aus um die gleiche Aktualitaet wie auf osm.org zu bieten und es kann schon einmal ein paar Tage hinterher hinken. Kai Caronna wrote Am 08.02.2014 15:38, schrieb Peter Wendorff: Letztendlich ist das bei den Karten auf osm.org immer das gleiche, aber da das eben alles unterschiedliche Server und Systeme sind, die Last unterschiedlich und so weiter, kann sich das durchaus deutlich unterscheiden. danke erstmal ist mittlerweile auch angekommen (halber Tag, bei OSM warens ein paar Minuten) muss Mensch halt wissen das das nicht so einfach ist - ich hatte angenommen Wikipedia schaut eben bei OSM nach genau so wie wir und verlinkt lediglich den Ausschnitt Grüße aus der Eifel Steffen ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@ https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-Wikipedia-tp5795740p5795783.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] IPv6 defekt?
Hallo, Ruben Kelevra wrote Hallo zusammen, osm.org lässt sich ja via IPv6 erreichen, jedoch ist von den Standardlayern lediglich der Humanitarian erreichbar, beim Rest bleibt die Karte grau. Wann wird das Problem gefixt? Bezieht sich das bleibt grau auf ein IPv6 only System, oder eines mit Dual Stack? Wie Simon bereits erwaehnt hat sind zwar die API server per IPv6 erreichbar, aber nicht die Tileserver. Allerdings auf einem Dual Stack System (auch DS-lite) muss der Hauptlayer korrekt auf osm.org zu sehen sein, sonst ist da irgendwo wirklich ein Fehler der dringend behoben werden muss. Bezueglich IPv6 Support der tileserver (die die die OSMF betreibt) gibt es mehrere Gruende wieso das noch nicht geht. Den eigentlichen Tileservern ist ein Content Delivery Network vorgeschaltet. Dieses besteht aus inzwischen 11 verschiedenen Hostinganbietern die ueber die Welt verstreut sind. 1) Von den 11 Standorten haben anscheinend nur 4 bislang ueberhaupt IPv6 connectivity. 2) Desweiteren unterstuetzt die verwendete Proxy Software (Squid 2.7) kein IPv6. Neuere Versionen von Squid, die IPv6 unterstuetzen, bieten jedoch einige andere Features nicht, auf die OSM derzeit zurueckgreift (wie z.B. fuer das tile throttling), sodas ein upgrade auf Squid 3 mehr Aenderungen als nur ein einfaches Software update bedeuten. 3) Fuer IPv6 gibt es bislang nicht so gute geolocation Datenbanken um Anfragen an die korrekte der 11 Hostingstandorte weiter zu leiten. Zumindestens Punkte 2 und 3 waeren durchaus loesbar, sind aber ein bisschen Aufwand um sicher zu stellen das im Produktiveinsatz nichts kaput geht und alles bisherige mindestens genauso gut weiter funktioniert wie bisher. Um mit https auf den Tileservern zu experimentieren sind seit ein paar Tagen der Squid Software noch ein non-caching nginx vorgeschaltet. Da nginx IPv6 unterstuetzt, waere es zumindestens denkbar auch dafuer das ganze ueber diese Zwischenstation laufen zu lassen. Aber mit Sachen wie tilethrottling ist auch das nicht ganz trivial. Auch wenn fuer OSM IPv6 nicht so wichtig ist, (reines http laeuft auch durch carrier grade NAT ohne Probleme), hoffe ich dennoch das ipv6 irgendwann bald komplett unterstuetzt wird. Wobei angesichts der Tatsache das zumindestens die API Server schon einmal IPv6 beherschen ist OSM immernoch deutlich weiter als die meisten anderen Webseiten. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/IPv6-defekt-tp5792067p5792312.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] IPv6 defekt?
Sven Geggus wrote fly lt; lowflight66@ gt; wrote: Wenn die api jetzt noch ssl könnte. Und was genau soll das bringen wenn ohnehin jeder editieren darf und edits öffentlich sind? Wenn ich mich nicht taeusche sendet JOSM immernoch als default den Username und das Password in Klartext unverschluesselt bei jedem API Aufruf ueber das Netzwerk. JOSM beherscht zwar OAuth, aber so wie die UI gestaltet ist wuerde es mich nicht wundern wenn die Mehrheit der User das nicht verwendet. Insofern wuerde die Verwendung von https fuer die API einen deutlichen Zugewinn an Sicherheit fuer diese User bieten. Bis vor Kurzem hat auch Vespucci noch nur Basic Auth fuer die API unterstuetzt und ich wuerde mal vermuten das es auch fuer andere Editoren einfacher waere die API einfach per https zu erreichen als OAuth zu implementieren. iD und P2 sind in dieser Hinsicht JOSM deutlich ueberlegen, da die immer OAuth verwenden und das Passwort nur per https im Login auf osm.org uebertragen und schuetzt somit den durchschnittlichen User deutlich besser. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/IPv6-defekt-tp5792067p5792431.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql multipolygon parsing
quot;Petr Morávek [Xificurk]quot;-2 wrote Anyway, this thread was not started to debate tagging schemes, the question I (and others) wanted to discuss here is this: Given the data that are currently in the database, how should osm2pgsql handle the import to get as much as possible multipolygons right? Indirectly it is a question of tagging schemas. With osm2pgsql being the tool used in the default map rendering on osm.org and the prevalence of tagging for the renderer decisions on how it handles multipolygons will (and imho to a limited degree should) influence how people tag and what they perceive as correct tagging. Therefore it is important that there is a consensus of what the correct tagging schema is and make sure that is correctly supported by osm2pgsql. That is also why I think having this discussion on talk, rather than on github or the dev list is appropriate. We need to come to a consensus between all of the main tools (at least iD, P2, JOSM, osm2pgsql, osrm, ...) and the mappers to what the preferred, encouraged and supported standard for tagging multi-polygons is and make sure that all documentation is in line with this. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/osm2pgsql-multipolygon-parsing-tp5778300p5778654.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Webservice um Kacheln zu verschmelzen
Andi wrote [...] Hat jemand von euch schon mal so nen Webserivce gesehen oder könnte Tips bei der Implementierung geben? Eine weitere Moeglichkeit das um zu setzen waere mod_tile. Mod_tile kann inzwischen mit verschiedenen Storage backends umgehen. Eine der verfuegbaren storage backends ist ein proxy backend, das tiles anstelle von von der Festplatte von einem anderen Tileserver besorgt. Ein anderers verfuegbares storage backend ist fuer die Verschmelzung von zwei Tiles erstellt worden. Urspruenglich war es gedacht um z.B. seine selbst gerenderten Tiles mit hillshading zu kombinieren, ohne die hillsahding auf dem eigenen Server liegen zu haben. Aber man kann auch genauso gut einfach zwei proxy backends zusammen verschmelzen. Dann braucht man gar nichts lokal speichern. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Webservice-um-Kacheln-zu-verschmelzen-tp5777270p596.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
John Firebaugh wrote Hi Andy, Thanks, this is great. I love having real numbers to discuss. Indeed, that is great. So thanks for the effort to produce these numbers and allow the discussion to come back to an objective debate. Those numbers speaks towards that iD is no worse than P2, probably better, which is the most important criterion for making iD the default editor. It might still be nice to think about a possibility for a staged introduction (random sub-sample of newly created accounts are set to iD as the default, the rest initially remains at P2) to collect more statistics and eliminate the bias Andy mentioned in the more serious errors. One possible further thing to look at is, if there is a bias in editor retention in either iD or P2 depending on the browser used, given that iDs performance depends on the browser used. Is this information available anywhere though? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774425.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
brycenesbitt wrote 5. There are concerns that iD makes deletion of features more prominent in the UI, compared to prior editors. In all this discussion if the delete feature, or rectanglify is too prominent, I always wonder why people don't just undo the accidental mistake? Even as an experienced mapper I have made enough accidental mistakes by e.g. deleting the wrong thing, or moving whole land areas instead of just a node, or the editor did something I did not expect it to do or I did something else destructively by mistake. And I have done this in all the editors I have used including JOSM. However, I hope that I have always noticed that what I just did was unintentional and hit the undo button. (In that respect I am rather glad OSM got rid of the live edit mode of Potlatch where the option of undo, or in the worst case just close the editor without saving, was not possible) So one line of questioning should be: Do people not notice what they have done? Do people intend to do those actions, because they did not understand that this was wrong? Do people not find the undo button? Does the editor too often do things they didn't expect and got so frustrated that they saved the broken result anyway? Apart from in the last case, reducing the prominence of the delete and rectanglify buttons likely won't really help. Both delete and rectanglify really are pretty basic functions that any new user is likely to seek out, so hiding it isn't going to help. Amongst the people who do new user training and therefore have a great opportunity to observe newbies and understand where they go wrong, has anyone observed this specific issue of unintended deletions getting into the DB? Do they have any insights as to what went wrong in the human-editor interaction? Are there other user interface changes possible to make people more aware of what they are doing? I.e. make sure that e.g. deleting something is visually obvious? Perhaps the currently selected object needs to be bright yellow, in which case any changes to that object becomes much more prominent and you can't just accidentally do something to the object without noticing? This may well even be helpful to experienced mappers to make sure they know what is going on. Particularly if you have an inteligent editor which tries to guess what you wanted to do and automatically do it for you. On the other hand, is this really an issue with iD? Or does it happen just as much in other editors and a small error rate is simply inevitable in a collaborative project like OSM? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774154.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Toby Murray-2 wrote We aren't trying to make The Perfect Editor here. We are trying to replace an aging editor with something more current. Let us not make perfection the enemy of progress. Although a perfect editor would of course be nice, it isn't really achievable so yes, we don't want to let the perfect be enemy of progress. But we do want to make sure it actually is progress. Pretty much all of the people discussing here how newbies interact with editors are actually experienced mappers. Once you have gained a certain level of experience for a while, it is really quite difficult to put your self in the shoes of a newcommer and understand how they see the world. Somethings you might think are complicated and try and thoroughly explain (or hide the complexity) might not be that difficult and newbies might find it condescendingly dumbed down, other things you might not even have considered as a point of confusion totally baffles a newcommer. E.g. is the sentence on the new welcome page An editor is a program or website you can use to edit the map blindingly obvious, misleadingly simplified, or an important relevant piece of information to newbies? It would be great if we could have some actual data comparing how P2 (the current default editor) performs against iD. Is iD already an overall improvement? Or do the remaining issues like performance in Firefox or relations support totally overshadow the benefits of iD? Perhaps we could have another go at thinking about A/B testing. I.e. have at random some people get iD as default during signup and some new signups still have P2 as default. Then after a while we can track certain statistics and see if there are significant, measurable differences and make an informed objective decision (rather than a biased subjective one). Of cause it isn't easy to come up with good summery statistics. But things like % of people who signup saving at least one edit. % of people who do more than one editing session, % of people who get (angry) mails from other mappers might give a good initial indication of overall how one editor performs compared to the other. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774160.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Request for translations of the upcoming new welcome page
As the welcome page will probably be merged fairly soon and then the normal translatewiki based translation takes over again and my guess is there won't be that many languages that get translated this way (it would be nice if the main ones can be though) I would propose to just coordinating it here on talk. I.e. just state which language you are planning on translating. So far we have a German and Danish translation. Kai severin wrote Hi, Do you have something (a wikipage, whatever) that allows to anyone to know who is taking charge of such language? I mean, it would be a pity if 2 people translate the same page into the same language. Sincerely, Severin Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:50:24 -0600 From: Kai Krueger lt; kakrueger@ gt; To: talk@ Subject: [OSM-talk] Request for translations of the upcoming new welcome page Message-ID: 520A9C10.3080800@ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello everyone, It is planned that a new fresh set of welcome pages [1] will soon be merged on osm.org thanks to the effort of a number of people. These pages are designed to be a friendly and an easy introduction to osm. As these pages are one of the first things new mappers see and there have been complaints about this in the past, we would like to try this time and get as many translations as possible done before this goes live. It would be great if people could help out and make sure these are translated to as many languages as possible. As the current translatewiki based system [2] is not setup to elicit translations from pre-merge strings, it is unfortunately necessary to do this outside of the normal translation system. The best way to do this is probably to fork the relevant source code on github ( https://github.com/osmlab/openstreetmap-website/ in the welcome-2 branch), and then edit your local language translation file. The English reference file is https://github.com/osmlab/openstreetmap-website/blob/welcome-2/config/locales/en.yml The main section that needs translating is the welcome_page: section. Once you have the translation you can send a pull request to get the translation merged and ready for when it goes live. It is unfortunately a bit more effort, but hopefully worth it. If you are planning on working on a translation, you should probably announce it here to coordinate and not cause duplicate effort. I am currently working on the German translation. Kai [1] welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org [2] https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:OpenStreetMap ___ talk mailing list talk@ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Request-for-translations-of-the-upcoming-new-welcome-page-tp5773616p5773644.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Request for translations of the upcoming new welcome page
Hello everyone, It is planned that a new fresh set of welcome pages [1] will soon be merged on osm.org thanks to the effort of a number of people. These pages are designed to be a friendly and an easy introduction to osm. As these pages are one of the first things new mappers see and there have been complaints about this in the past, we would like to try this time and get as many translations as possible done before this goes live. It would be great if people could help out and make sure these are translated to as many languages as possible. As the current translatewiki based system [2] is not setup to elicit translations from pre-merge strings, it is unfortunately necessary to do this outside of the normal translation system. The best way to do this is probably to fork the relevant source code on github ( https://github.com/osmlab/openstreetmap-website/ in the welcome-2 branch), and then edit your local language translation file. The English reference file is https://github.com/osmlab/openstreetmap-website/blob/welcome-2/config/locales/en.yml The main section that needs translating is the welcome_page: section. Once you have the translation you can send a pull request to get the translation merged and ready for when it goes live. It is unfortunately a bit more effort, but hopefully worth it. If you are planning on working on a translation, you should probably announce it here to coordinate and not cause duplicate effort. I am currently working on the German translation. Kai [1] welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org [2] https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:OpenStreetMap ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Darstellungsfehler im Rendering. Wie Fehler melden?
dieterdreist wrote Ganz ausschließen kann man abgeschnittene Label ja durch etwas Überlappung sowieso nicht (Kettenreaktion welche Labels gerendert werden, wenn andere da sind oder auch nicht), aber es kam mir so vor, als wären da ein bisschen viele abgeschnitten. Ich frage mich ebenfalls ob es irgendwo eine Regression gegeben hat. Wenn ich mich nicht taeusche ist der rendering stack der bis vor kurzem auf osm.org verwendet wurde schon etwas aelter, waerend nun aktuelle Versionen von renderd und mapnik verwendet werden. Auch renderd setzt eigentlich einen buffer-size von 128px (eine halbe Kachel), wenn der Stil nicht explicit einen anderen buffer-size verwendet. Das erst genannte high-zoom Beispiel mit dem service weg und dem POI, sollte eigentlich nicht zu einem abgeschnittenen Label fuehren, da sowohl der Weg als auch der POI in beiden angrenzenden Kacheln komplett innerhalb des 128px buffers liegen. Ausserdem sehe ich dort auch keinen Fall von Kettenreaktion oder anderen Gruenden wieso der buffer nicht korrekt das abschneiden verhindern sollte. Bei den low-zoom Kacheln hingegen ist es wesentlich schwere auszuschliessen das es keine Kettenreaktion gibt die das funktionieren des buffers verhindern. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Darstellungsfehler-im-Rendering-Wie-Fehler-melden-tp5772491p5773497.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Changing language in OSM tile server
gurpinder chahal wrote hi all, I'm trying to change language in my OSM tile server. Although the following won't help with the rectangular font issues and also requires the import with hstore, it might be of interest to pointing out, that a while ago, I was working on an extension to mod_tile/renderd to make changing the language easier. This extension [0] allowed to parameterize the rendering stylesheet on a request by request basis by programmatically rewriting the mapnik style sheet. One of the possible parameterizations (well, actually the only one currently implemented) was to change the language of the name. It allowed for urls of the form http://yourserver.com/style/ar,de,fr,_/1/0/0.png, where ar,de,fr,_ was the language parameterization, rendering the first of name:ar, name:de, name:fr and name which is not empty for each feature. The advantage is that with this, you can take (nearly) any style sheet and turn it into a different language style-sheet without having to mess around with re-writing the xml. If I remember correctly, the state of that branch was that it was working, but not heavily tested yet. One of the reasons I didn't continue pursuing it back then was that it breaks mod_tiles compatibility with tirex and I didn't want to do that without making sure that tirex gets updated as well. But perhaps it is worth pushing again for getting it into a state to merge in to the mod_tile/rednerd trunk. This whole branch was heavily based upon Jochen Topf's work on multi-lingual maps project for the wikimedia germany chapter [1],[2], which is another great place to look at. Kai [0] https://github.com/apmon/mod_tile/tree/multi-lingual [1] http://blog.jochentopf.com/2012-06-21-wikipedia-multilingual-maps-project.html [2] http://blog.jochentopf.com/2012-12-19-status-of-the-multilingual-maps-project.html -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Changing-language-in-OSM-tile-server-tp5773152p5773218.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Flächenstil wird nicht mehr gerendert nach Hinzufügen als inner zu Multipolygon
Wilhelm Spickermann wrote Am Tue, 06 Aug 2013 21:58:34 +0200 schrieb tumsi lt; tumsi@ gt;: Danke für eure Antworten. Ich scheine also keinen grundsätzlichen Fehler gemacht zu haben. Ich habe jetzt einen überschaubaren Teil vom Multipolygon abgetrennt und habe so die betreffenden Polygone separat. Jetzt wird es richtig interessant. Es (Way 94507617) wird immer noch nicht dargestellt, obwohl es ein einfaches Polygon ist. Kein Punkt ist doppelt. Keine Selbstüberschneidungen. Keine lustigen Codes in den Tags. Was kann das sein? Ich habe mir die Situation noch nicht im Detail angeschaut, aber moeglicherweise treten hier Zeit Effekte / Bugs von Osm2pgsql auf. Das Urspruengliche Problem kann, wie oben schon geschrieben, gut daran liegen das wenn inner und outer die gleichen Tags haben, der inner dann ignoriert wird. Wenn ich es richtig gesehen habe, haben die inner und outer jeweils natural=wood, aber dann unterscheidlich wood= tags. Moeglicherweise handhabt osm2pgsql das nicht richtig? Das zweite Problem ist moeglicherweise Bug #4525 ( https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4525 ). Wenn man ein Polygon das zuvor Teil eines Multipolygon war aus dem Multipolygon heraus nimmt ohne den einzelnen Weg zu aendern dann stolpert der diff code von osm2pgsql darueber und das Polygon wird nicht korrekt in die rendering Datenbank eingefuegt. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Flachenstil-wird-nicht-mehr-gerendert-nach-Hinzufugen-als-inner-zu-Multipolygon-tp5772649p5773069.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Foursquare ermuntert zum Editieren in OSM
Hallo allerseits, Dies wurde bereits auf der englischen Talk Liste gepostet[1], aber da es wohl auch Deutschland betrifft, dachte ich ist es vielleicht auch interessant es noch einmal auf talk-de zu wiederholen. Foursquare hat wohl vor kurzem auf ihren Seiten, die Karten darstellen, einen Link eingefuehrt[2] um direkt von dort zu einem Editor in OSM zu gelangen. Zuvor werden sie noch ueber eine Seite geleitet die OSM etwas erklaert[3] um Leute die von OSM noch nie gehoert habe es etwas naeher zu bringen. Auch wenn ich Foursquare nicht wirklich kenne da ich es nicht benutze, und somit auch nicht viel zur Umsetzung sagen kann, denke ich ist das ein wirklich positiver Schritt. Vielleicht kennen einige von euch ja Foursquare superuser und koenntet versuchen etwas Outreach in die Foursquare community zu betreiben um mehr zu echten OSM mapper zu machen? Wenn zunehmend Firmen die OSM Karten verwenden sich aktiv bemuehen Ihre Benutzer dazu zu bekommen, bzw dabei helfen, OSM Daten zu verbessern (Sei es durch die Integration von Notes in ihren Seiten wie Craigslist oder eben nun durch einen direkten edit link wie bei Foursquare), dann eroeffnet dies OSM ganz neue Moeglichkeiten zu wachsen und an mehr detailliertes lokales Wissen zu gelangen. So was duerfte insbesondere in bereits gut gemappten gegenden enorm helfen um sicher zu stellen das die Daten auch wirklich aktuell bleiben. Ich hoffe das in Zukunft mehr Webseiten die OSM nutzen solche edit links einbauen. Insofern sollten wir als Community schauen wie wir das am besten hin bekommen. Vermutlich wird es wie bei allem ein gewissen Lernprozess enthalten um heraus zu finden was am besten funktioniert. Es waere dann toll diese best practices vielleicht in Tools wie OpenLayers und Leaflet um zu setzen, sodass es fuer interessierte Firmen und Vereine ein leichtes ist OSM konkret zu unterstuetzen. Kai [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-August/067768.html [2] http://blog.foursquare.com/2013/07/31/linking-up-foursquare-and-openstreetmap-editing/ [3] https://foursquare.com/about/osm ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OAuth (Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?)
Dirk Sohler wrote Martin Koppenhoefer schrieb: […] später OAuth als Alternative implementiert wurde. Letzteres sorgt u.a. dafür, dass das pw nicht mehr klar gespeichert wird, daher ist das unbedingt zu empfehlen! Jetzt stehen statt Benutzername und Kennwort eben key und secret in der Datei. Da mein ~ aber eh chmod 700 ist, ist mir das einerlei :) Das ist von Vorteil wenn man JOSM nicht trauen wuerde, denn so bekommt JOSM dein Passwort nie zu sehen (Zumindestens wenn man die halb automatische Variante verwendet hat um den Token zu bekommen). Zusammen mit der Tatsache das man die Zugriffsrechte beschraenken kann sodas selbst wenn JOSM kompromitiert waere der Angreifer nur limitierten Zugriff bekommen. Weiterhin, da viele Leute das gleiche Passwort auf mehreren Sites verwenden, kann ein kompromitiertes JOSM dann nicht auch noch andere accounts uebernehmen. Fuer einen opensource desktop client wie JOSM, der mehr oder weniger alle moeglichen Zugriffsrechte verlangt, ist dieser Teil von OAuth wohl weniger interessant. Aber man kann zum Beispiel auf einer Webseite der man nicht voll Vertraut einen Notes editor verwenden, bei dem man der Seite dann eben nur die Berechtigung zur Verwendung der Notes gibt. Ausserdem kann auch der Server admin dieses Notes editors nie dein Passwort einsehen was ein enormer Vorteil ist. Somit kann auch wenn der Server gehackt wird und die Betreiber schlamping waren und die Passworter unverschluesselt und ungesalzen gespeichert haben diese nicht geklaut werden, da man das Passwort der Seite nie gegeben hat. Auch bei z.B. einer Android app die grundsaetzlich alles nach Hause funkt, koennte das Passwort so nicht kompromitiert werden. Da zunehmend OSM editoren auch auf Drittseiten eingebaut werden, wird dieser Vorteil von OAuth zunehmend nuetzlich, auch wenn er fuer JOSM eher gering ist. Dirk Sohler wrote So lange der Zugriff auf die API nicht über SSL erfolgt, können auch diese Daten ohne weiteres mitgesnifft, oder bei versehentlicher Veröffentlichung von jemand anderem in die Konfiguration eingetragen werden, der dann eben das jeweilige OAuth verwendet, und nicht Benutzername und Kennwort. Das mitsniffen von Traffic hilft hier nicht. OAuth ist explicit darauf ausgelegt auch ueber unsichere Verbindungen das Passwort zu schuetzen in dem es digitale signaturen verwendet um die Herkunft zu guarantieren. Bei OAuth gibt es vier Werte: Consumer Key, Consumer Secret, Token Key und Token Secret. Der Consumer ist dabei die verwendete Anwendung, das heist JOSM, oder die Notes editor website. Der Token bezieht sich auf die Person. Bei jedem API Aufruf der ueber OAuth geht wird nun unverschluesselt der Consumer Key, der Token Key und eine digitale Signatur geschickt. Die digital Signatur hasht den Inhalt des API Aufrufes der unverschluesselt uebermittelt wird und den Consumer Secret und Token Secret, welche beide nie unverschluesselt uebertragen werden. Da man nur mit Hilfe dieser beiden shared secrets eine gueltige Signatur erstellen kann, weiss der Server das die Nachricht tatsaechlich von dem Tokeninhaber stammt. Wenn man die Datenleitung zwischen JOSM und OSM.org mitsnift bekommt man somit heraus, wer den Aufruf gemacht hat (Token key), mit welchem Program (Consumer key), und den gesammten Inhalt des API Aufrufes. Mit den Informationen kann man aber keine gueltigen neuen Aufrufe erzeugen. Somit hilft OAuth fuer privacy Zwecke nichts, aber es stellt sicher das nie das Passwort uebertragen wird (welches wahrscheinlich fuer mehrere Seiten und Dienste gueltig ist) und das auch jemand der den Traffic mitsnifft nicht unberechtigt auf den Account zugreifen kann. Wenn natuerlich der Token Secret in einen oeffentlichen Bugreport gestellt wird, dann hilft OAuth auch nicht mehr. Andererseits, falls einem dass passiert, kann man den Token ganz einfach auf osm.org ungueltig erklaeren und einen neuen anfordern und muss nicht dass Passwort auf osm (und moeglicherweise andere Seiten auf denen man das gleiche verwendet hat) aendern und sich ein neues merken. Also auch in diesem Fall hat OAuth Vorteile. Insofern sollte wirklich immer OAuth verwendet werden wenn irgendwie moeglich. Nachteile hat es fuer den Nutzer eigentlich keine. (Fuer die Programmierer von Software leider schon, da es einiges an Komplexitaet gegenueber dem einfachen Username und Passwort hinzufuegt). Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5772275.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Jörg Frings-Fürst wrote Aber was ist das: Da gibt es ja unter anderem noch einen Bereich in Nordafrika. Doch was will man daraus schließen? Das ich da in Urlaub war? Nein Das ich dort aktiv gekämpft habe? Nein Dort habe in einfach für HOT gemappt. Sicher feststellen wird man es natuerlich nicht koennen ob die Person nun tatsaechlich vor Ort war oder nicht, aber man kann es haeufig durchaus einschraenken. Zum Beispiel kann man analysieren ob alles was man gemappt hat Sachen sind die man von Satelitten gemappt werden koennen, oder ob man eben doch lokales Wissen benoetigt. Oder, man verknuepft das ganze mit mailing list (Foren posts) und stellt fest das diese Person z.B. ueberwiegend morgens und abends postet. Nun, in der Zeit wo die edits ausserhalb der Heimat waren, hat sich dieses Verhalten ploetzlich veraendert. Nun stellt man fest das wenn man die Zeitverschiebung an dem Ort mit einbezieht man, dieses wieder passt. Schon kann man mit relativ hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit sagen, das die Person tatsaechlich vor Ort war um das zu mappen. Wenn man sich jetzt noch zusaetzlich die Created By tags anschaut und fesstellt, das die Changesets z.B. vermehrt mit Vespucci hoch geladen wurden und nicht wie sonst ueblich mit JOSM, ist das ein weiteres Indiz. Somit, wenn man die ganzen Daten entsprechend statistisch auswertet und mit diversen anderen Quellen und Datenbanken verknueft, kann es durch aus helfen das (Bewegungs)Profil einer Person entscheidend zu verfeinern. Jörg Frings-Fürst wrote Welche Rückschlüsse auf mich sollen daraus abgeleitet werden? Das einzigste was man mir dort vorwerfen kann ist das ich dort vorbeigefahren bin. Und ich gebe freiwillig zu das jede Woche mindestens 2 mal über die dortige Autobahn fahre. ;-) Man kann viele Rueckschluesse daraus ableiten. Manche Interessanter, manche weniger Interessant. Und manche koennen eben auch durchaus Problematisch werden. Angeblich gibt es muslimische Laender in die man nicht einreisen kann, wenn man zuvor Israel besucht hat. Man hoert desshalb immer mal wieder Tips, das man sich z.B. einen zweiten Pass besorgen soll um die Einreise nach Israel zu verschleiern. Wenn diese Laender nun noch zusaetzlich die OSM Daten auswerten wuerden... (Ich kann nicht beurteilen ob dies Tatsaechlich stimmt, ganz unplausibel ist es aber nicht). Man kann sich viele mehr oder weniger plausible Datenauswertungsstrategien ausdenken mit entsprechenden Missbrauchszenarien Wenn man sich die Datensatzbeschreibungen anschaut, dann ist noch nicht einmal die Aussage xy war um die Uhrzeit an dem Punkt und hat dort gemappt möglich. Es wird in den Änderungssätzen keine IP gespeichert. Jörg Frings-Fürst wrote Also ich denke mal Konsens sollte sein, das bei Nutzung eines Nicknamens und ohne Angabe des Wohnortes über vorhandenen und genutzten der Planetfiles und der Diffs weder eine direkte Zuordnung zu einer Person noch ein Bewegungsprofil erstellt werden kann. Ich glaube da irrst du dich ziemlich. Auch wenn es natuerlich nicht bei allen Leuten moeglich ist, ist doch vermutlich bei einer gross Zahl der aktiven mapper mit etwas Aufwand und einer ausfuehrlichen Internet Suche die genaue Person ausfindig zu machen. Frag mal die Leute die waehrend der Lizenzumstellung damit beauftragt waren unentschiedene Mapper ausfindig zu machen was alles moeglich ist! Das ging so weit, das teilweise die Leute zu Hause telefonisch angerufen wurden um zu Fragen ob sie der ODBL zu stimmen. Die Telefonnummer, postalische Adresse, die Freunde der Mapper in welchen Klubs die Leute sind. Das alles haben sie Teilweise ueber die Mapper herausgefunden nur anhand des nicknamens und der mapping Daten + Google. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771808.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Peter Wendorff wrote Hallo Kai, stimmt - Pascal oder ich würden das nicht mehr so ohne weiteres hinkriegen, NSA, diverse Botnetzbetreiber etc., die mal eben über ein paar tausend IPs verfügen können, kriegen das sehr wohl hin - wieder mal nur die wirklich bösen Buben. Lange befor man den ganzen planeten hat, gehen die Server in die Knie, so dass man wieder nicht alzu weit kommt. Auch nicht mit einem Botnetz, es sei denn die NSA will der OSMF einen dickeren Datenbank server spenden... ;-) Gegen das mitschneiden der Daten wuerde dann https helfen, welches imho ohnehin sinnvoll waere, da vermutlich immer noch viel HTTP basic auth anstelle von OAuth verwenden und somit die Passwoerter in Klartext uebertragen. Aber das ist ein anderes Thema. Peter Wendorff wrote Und: Warum sollte die Webseite wirklich besser zu schützen sein als die API? Wenn es darum geht, massenhaften Zugriff zu blocken, dann ist dies auf der Webseite genauso viel oder wenig sinnvoll wie auf der API, oder was sehe ich nicht, das du siehst? Nein, die Webseite ist nicht besser zu schuetzen als die API. Und bei Einzelobjektanfragen wuerde ich desshalb auch die UID Informationen genauso wie auf der Webseite zulassen. Der grosse Unterschied ist ob es im planetfile enthalten ist oder nicht. Aber ich denke, so langsam haben wir das Thema ausdiskutiert. Die diversen Vorschlaege liegen auf dem Tisch, genauso wie die Vor und Nachteile und die jeweiligen Positionen. Wenn es also nicht zu konkreten Aenderungen fuehrt, was ich eher nicht glaube, brauchen wir die mapper mit so laestigen Themen nicht weiter zu stoeren. Bis es entweder zu spaet ist, oder es sich hoffentlich herausgestellt hat das es nur die Sorgen ein paar paranoider Spinner waren... ;-) Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771822.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Dirk Sohler wrote Mark Obrembalski schrieb: Allgemein: Die Gegner des gegenwärtigen Umgangs von OSM mit Daten möchten bitte allmählich darstellen, wie sie sich den zukünftigen Umgang vorstellen würden. Daten, von denen auf einen Useraccount geschlossen werden können, aus dem Planet raus, und nicht über die API abrufbar machen. In wieweit waere das folgende ein Kompromiss und wie viele legitime Verwendungszwecke wuerde man dadurch tatsaechlich verlieren? Daten im planet file sind anonym. Das heist grundsaetzlich werden keine uid Daten an die Elemente im Planet angehaengt. Fuer einzelne Elemente ueber die API und die browse pages bleibt diese Information allerdings erhalten. Die Seite http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/xyzabc/edits waere dann nur noch fuer user mit modaratoren privileg einsichtbar, wobei man die Option hat diese fuer alle oeffentlich zu machen wenn man das will. Dadurch das die API nach wie vor die User ID fuer einzelne Element heraus gibt, ist die wichtigste Verwendung fuer die Daten, naemlich das Kontaktieren der Mapper, ueber deren Edits man diskutieren will weiterhin moeglich. Man kann damit auch sehen welche mapper in der naeheren Umgebung aktiv sind und was sie so machen. Falls ein mapper wiederholt auffaellt, haben die begrenzte Anzahl (und hoffentlich vertrauenswuerdigen) Modaratoren auch weiterhin die Moeglichkeit alle Changesets eines bestimmten Users sich anzugucken um zu entscheiden ob weitere Massnahmen zur Vandalismusabwehr zu ergreifen sind. Was allerdings nicht mehr (bzw nur noch schwerlich) geht, ist grossflaechiges Datamining der account bezogenen Daten. Damit unterbindet man die problematischsten Verwendungszwecke, ohne das man die legitimen uebermaessig beeintraechtigt. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771703.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Peter Wendorff wrote Daten im planet file sind anonym. Das heist grundsaetzlich werden keine uid Daten an die Elemente im Planet angehaengt. Fuer einzelne Elemente ueber die API und die browse pages bleibt diese Information allerdings erhalten. Bei sauberer Verwendung hat das die Einschränkung zur Folge, dass nützliche Tools wie die von Pascal eben nur noch auf zentralen OSM-Servern ordentlich laufen könnten oder eben dreckig die API dafür abgefragt würde - wer böses will, kann dann immer noch böses, aber er belastet damit eben zusätzlich die OSM-API. Ansonsten aber machbar und ein möglicher Kompromiss. Nein, solche Dienste (die grossflaechiges Datamining der accountbezogenen Daten beinhalten) wuerden gar nicht mehr laufen, aber das ist ja auch der Sinn. Natuerlich sind solche Dienste schoen und machen Spass. Aber z.B. Pascal's Dienst befriedigt aus meiner Sicht hauptsaechlich die Neugierde der Leute wer was gemappt hat, und dass sollte man sich eben ueberlegen ob man das wirklich will. Das ganze dreckig ueber die API zu machen, da wird man nicht weit kommen bevor man von den Servern verbannt wird. Dafuer werden die sysadmins schon sorgen. Ein grossflaechiges Auswerten wird also schon sehr schwierig. Peter Wendorff wrote Die Seite http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/xyzabc/edits waere dann nur noch fuer user mit modaratoren privileg einsichtbar, wobei man die Option hat diese fuer alle oeffentlich zu machen wenn man das will. Bei der hier momentan laufenden Debatte wäre das wohl die einzige Möglichkeit. Ich halte es aber trotzdem für blöd - und finde persönlich die jetztige Lösung besser: - Ich kann nicht mehr einen neuen neuen Mit-Mapper in der Region erkennen und gezielt ansprechen, weder auf Stammtisch oder Mailingliste noch auf evtl. Koordinierung von Fehlerbehebungen oder ähnliches, ohne dabei eben auch die Urlaubs- oder bin-mal-vorbeigekommen-Mapper mit zu erwischen. Das wollen Dirk, Tirkon und Co ja offensichtlich gerade erreichen - aber ich mags persönlich nicht so. Klar, jeder Schutz hat Nachteile und Einschraenkungen (wer ist nicht schon einmal vor einer verschlossenen Tuer gestanden weil er den Schluessen vergessen hat...) Die Frage ist welche Einschraenkungen ist man fuer den Schutz bereit zu akzeptieren. Diese Kompromisse muss man in der Gesellschaft ausdiskutieren und zu einer Balance kommen. Ein Problem dabei ist, das die Einschraenkungen meist sehr konkret sind, der abgewendete Gefahr hingegen meist eher abstrakt und schwer wirklich zu bewerten. Dadurch das die API nach wie vor die User ID fuer einzelne Element heraus gibt, ist die wichtigste Verwendung fuer die Daten, naemlich das Kontaktieren der Mapper, ueber deren Edits man diskutieren will weiterhin moeglich. Ja, für einen einzelnen Edit möglich; für generelle Muster eben leider nicht (kann man mit leben). Peter Wendorff wrote Was allerdings nicht mehr (bzw nur noch schwerlich) geht, ist grossflaechiges Datamining der account bezogenen Daten. Damit unterbindet man die problematischsten Verwendungszwecke, ohne das man die legitimen uebermaessig beeintraechtigt. Ich befürchte, das geht nach hinten los: Über die einzelnen Changesets per API krieg ich ja gerade doch noch den usernamen raus, das ist nur aufwändiger per Hand zu machen als bisher, per Script ist es anders als bisher - aber nicht schwieriger. Natuerlich jeder Schutz ist mit genuegend Aufwand zu ueberwinden. Die Frage ist wieviel Aufwand ist es dem Angreifer wert, und wieviel ist der Schutz dem Nutzer Wert in form von Einschraenkungen. Das Problem ist, das dank Big Data und der Freizugigkeit der Daten, diese Balance stark in Richtung Auswertung verschoben wurde. Nun ist die Frage, kann man durch technische und politische Massnahmen diese Balance wieder zum Wohle des Nutzers veraendern. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771713.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Peter Wendorff wrote Jeder Mapper darf reingucken, aber die Daten befinden sich nicht mehr im Planet und sind nicht mehr über die API abrufbar, und stehen nicht mehr unter der ODbL, so dass automatisierte Datenzusammenführungen und Auswertungen nicht mehr möglich sind, bzw. einen Lizenzverstoß darstellen. Nicht mehr unter ODbL: einverstanden. Nicht mehr über die API - sondern? Über die Webseite? Und wer hindert mich daran, mein Script über die Webseite statt über die API zu jagen? Die Sysadmins werden das verhindern! Versuch mal* das planet-file per API Aufrufe zu rekonstruieren und schau wie schnell du von den Servern geblockt wirst. Du wirst nicht sonderlich weit kommen. Insofern bietet das schon ein ziemlich hohes Hinderniss. Abgesehen davon ueberlege mal wie lange es dauert mit einzelnen Aufrufen alleine die 2 Milliarden nodes im planet-file zu bekommen. Damit ist man dann viele Jahre beschaeftigt... Es bietet also einen recht effektiven Schutz gegen Massenauswertung ohne die begrenzte Einzelauswertung sonderlich zu beeintraechtigen. *Nein, versuche es bitte nicht wirklich! -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771801.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Dirk Sohler wrote Markus schrieb: Wir machen zwei getrennte DBs: a) für Geodaten b) für Benutzerdaten b) ist für Dritte nicht zugänglich a) enthält nur die ID aus b) Die OSMF (und die Admins) verpflichten sich auf eine entsprechende Datenschutzerklärung. Abfragen über a) und b) ist nur der OSMF möglich und nur erlaubt zur Ermittlung von Verstössen. Ausnahme: zur Kontaktaufnahme er Benutzer untereinander gibt es ein (sicheres?!) System für Einzel-Mails. Das wäre die beste Lösung. Schade, dass das nicht schon von Anfang an so praktiziert wird – und in absehbarer Zukunft so nicht kommen wird :( Diejenigen die schon lange im Projekt mitarbeiten erinnern sich vielleicht noch an die anonymen Accounts. Das war eine Option die jeder in seinem account aktivieren konnte. Bei Aktivierung, wurde dann bei keinem der oeffentlichen Daten mehr die User-ID oder User-Name mit den Daten verknuepft. Anstelle der richtigen user-id, wurde grundsaetzlich die uid=0 gesetzt, womit man nicht mehr sehen konnte von welchem user account die Daten stammen und auch nicht welche Daten von wieviel verschiedenen Accounts kamen. Vor einer Weile (weis nicht mehr wann das geschehen ist) hat das Projekt entschieden das es das nicht gut fand und hat anonyme Accounts nicht mehr zugelassen. Seit dem koennen neu registrierte accounts nicht mehr diese Option waehlen und koennen auch keine Daten mehr mit solchen Accounts neu hochladen. Da ohne die Zustimmung der User diese Einstellung natuerlich nicht geaendert werde darf und man nicht von jedem Account die Zustimmung bekommen kann, duerften auch heute noch anonyme Accounts in der OSM Datenbank enthalten sein. Die komplette Software muss also noch immer darauf ausgelegt sein anonyme Accounts zu verarbeiten und zu verwalten. Lediglich die UI um diese Option zu aktivieren muesste man wieder neu einbauen, da diese nicht mehr im aktuellen Code enthalten ist. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771603.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Frederik Ramm wrote On 27.07.2013 17:51, Kai Krueger wrote: Diejenigen die schon lange im Projekt mitarbeiten erinnern sich vielleicht noch an die anonymen Accounts. Das war eine Option die jeder in seinem account aktivieren konnte. Soweit ich mich erinnere, war es leicht anders: Anfangs waren alle anonym. Dann gab es im Userprofil die Option make all my edits public, forever, mit der man aus der Anonymitaet aussteigen konnte. Das forever stand deswegen da, weil wir bei einem spaeteren ach ich will doch lieber anoynm ja auch ploetzlich alle alten Planetfiles durchschauen muessten, um dort den Usernamen auszumerzen, und an alle, die sich die Daten runtergeladen hatten, weitergeben muessten, dass sie jetzt nicht mehr den Usernamen benutzen sollen usw. Danke fuer die Klarstellung. Das anfangs alle Anonym waren wusste ich auch nicht. Das war noch bevor ich zu OSM gestossen bin. Das mit der Option war vielleicht auch missverstaendlich ausgedrueckt. Es war eher so implementiert wie spaeter die ich stimme den CT zu, welches ebenfalls eine Einbahnstrasse war. Aber zumindestens beim Erstellen des Accounts konnte man noch waehlen. Das man spaeter einen existierenden offentlichen Account nicht auf anonym umstellen konnte (ohne einen neuen Account zu erstellen) macht wie du geschrieben hast durchaus Sinn, da man nachtraeglich nichts mehr aus dem Internet wirklich loeschen kann wenn es erst einmal veroeffentlicht wurde und somit sollte man das den Usern auch nicht vorgaukeln. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771640.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Datenschutz Warnung im englischen OSM Wiki
Frederik Ramm wrote Denn wäre sie vollständig, müsste noch angehängt werden: Zudem werden diese Daten mit den Usernamen der Bearbeiter verknüpft. Aus diesen Daten können Analysen über den Mapper wie Zeitprofile und die Lokalitäten seiner Ortskenntnisse erstellt werden. Das waere aber immer noch nicht vollstaendig. Ich koennte mir vorstellen, dass Bedenkentraeger mit verschiedenen Interessensschwerpunkten noch eine ganze Reihe weiterer Fehlleitungen identifizieren. Zum Beispiel gibt es Leute, die die kommerzielle Nutzbarkeit der Daten nicht gut finden, auf die aber nicht explizit hingewiesen wird. Diese Leute koennten sich getaeuscht fuehlen. Auch wenn wir immer ueberpruefen sollten wo die OSM Dokumentation zu Fehleinschaetzungen verleitet, und das Zitierte Beispiel zur kommerziellen Nutzung ist sicherlich eine die man wahrscheinlich verbessern koennte, ist es nicht das gleiche wie die Wahrung der Privatsphaere. Waerend im Falle der kommerziellen Nutzung der Mapper sich getaeuscht fuehlen kann und moeglicherweise veraergert das Projekt verlassen, sind die Konsequenzen relativ gering. Diese koennen bei der Verletzung der Privatsphaere jedoch ganz anders aussehen. Z.B. wenn eine mapperin in Land XYZ das falsche mappt, kann sie ploetzlich Aerger mit den Behoerden bekommen, moeglicherweise sogar ernsthafte. Ein weiteres Beispiel waere wenn man immer gerne bevorzugt Nachts in der Naehe seiner geheimen Liebschaft mappt und die Ehefrau dann das Profil analysiert, koennte das auch unangenehme Folgen haben. (OK, wer das macht verdient den Aerger vielleicht auch, zeigt aber das die Konsequenzen eben wesentlich hoeher sind als wenn man nicht wusste das die Daten auch kommerziell verwendet werden duerfen) Das Kartendaten und deren Nutzung sehr persoenlich sein koennen und aufschlussreich sind, kann man schon alleine daran sehen das die NSA geziehlt google maps Suchen und Anfrage speichert und analysiert, da damit offensichtlich relevant Information ueber Personen erstellt werden koennen. Auch wenn es nicht unbedingt die Aufgabe von OSM ist, seine Nutzer und Mapper vor den Geheimdiensten (und Ehefrauen) zu schuetzen, so sollte OSM doch sehr darauf achten es nicht unnoetig leicht zu machen die Personenbezogenen Daten zu missbrauchen und die Nutzer eben auch auf die moeglichen (auch wenn hoffentlich sehr unwahrscheinlichen) Gefahren hinweisen damit jeder informiert selbst darueber entscheiden kann, ob er es als ein Problem sieht oder eben nicht und die ganzen Vorteile die die offenheit mit Daten mit sich bringt als ueberwiegend sieht. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Datenschutz-Warnung-im-englischen-OSM-Wiki-tp5771600p5771646.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Bernd Wurst wrote Die eigentliche Empörung bezüglich persönlicher Daten ist eigentlich nicht der Rede wert, da diese abstrusen Vorschläge bisher hauptsächlich von Leuten kommen, deren E-Mail-Adresse bei einem werbefinanzierten Free-Mail-Hoster liegt und da eigentlich jede Aussage über Datensparsamkeit und Datenschutz lächerlich wirkt. Diese Argumentation haelt nicht wirklich stand. Erstens kann man sich durchaus auch fuer andere einsetzen fuer die es moeglicherweise ein Problem ist oder mal sein wird, auch wenn es fuer einem derzeit kein persoenliches Problem ist, z.B. nach dem Moto: First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me. ( http://www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/4/daszitat/a31 ) Zweitens kann man durchaus auch bei den werbefinanzierten Webmailern sein und dennoch Datensparsamkeit praktizieren wenn man sich der Problematik voll bewust ist. Wenn ich z.B. an eine oeffentliche mailingliste poste, kommt es nicht wirklich darauf an ob ich nun von einem werbefinanzierten webmailer aus die Sache losschicke oder von einem hochsicherheits Email Dienst. Fuer Private Dinge verwendet man dann vielleicht eine andere Addresse und Server. Aber auch fuer private Dinge kann man die werbefinanzierten Dienste durchaus sicher (danke Ende-zu-Ende Verschluesselung) verwenden wenn man sich der Sache bewust ist, ohne das man private Information an sie preis gibt. Insofern heist nur weil man bei einem werbefinanzierten Webmailer ist, noch lange nicht das man sich nicht fuer die Privatsphaere einsetzen kann, die nicht ohne Grund in fast jeder demokratischen Verfassung als Grundrecht verankert wurde. Denn meist wurden die Verfassungen verfasst kurz nachdem diese Rechte und Freiheiten unter viel Blutvergiessen von einem System zurueck erkaempft wurden, in dem es zuvor fuerchterlich schief gegangen ist. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJR9EnVAAoJEPwZDcNnq5LEul8H/jWJKegBqf/owfNQZyyKibHc H7jFDrTS7/oIOu7NC4dlqjlYvxCcI8CFxiXdUQS7zemRBHntpjnJxfUfft7KjWxt dqDedPudG4LyPIjwnIqt2lA5JxAy3PBmBUHN8cN1d5frXbTm8OGeu9z/BAdWLbvx HdTyWalxu+/VEJb26h+BzenmHK/jzAHhpDe07MStsOeMd7YfC3HevyJXb90PRPJY IFIzHNe6Q5MmyKyOI4S5NM3RZtyaFAPoEeD53J66lEG6fDYH877jGC40KstWDXTZ RilzOn0whOaZnm5gL/spz2JE5tFhMGLVFWgHeCaRctuhROyMWwXtOVesy2yxbeE= =AZ+M -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771650.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gibt OSM auch Daten über die Beitragenden heraus?
Markus-2 wrote * OSMbook: ja es gibt Strömungen in der OSM community die gerne aus OSM eine social media Platform machen würden Wer will das? und warum? Es wollen viele. Unter anderem auch einige die an der Webseite entwickeln. Insofern werden in Zukunft sicherlich auch einige weitere Aenderungen in der Richtung einzug erhalten. Ein Beispiel davon duerfte wohl http://groups.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/ sein. Das ist schon recht fortgeschritten und wird irgendwann in wohl nicht mehr all zu langer Zeit so aehnlich Einzug erhalten. Es erlaubt Mappern sich zu thematischen Gruppen zusammen zu schliessen und dann sich leichter ueber ihre Interessen auszutauschen. Zum Beispiel koennen sich in so einer Gruppe alle Freunde des oeffentlichen Verkehrs zusammen schliessen und Aktionen planen wie sie den OePNV besser in OSM erfassen koennten. Oder ueber das beste Tagging schema streiten. Man kann sich aber auch zu eine Gruppe des lokalen Stammtisches zusammen schliesen oder eben auch zu jedem anderen Thema das einem Interessiert. Das hat durch aus sehr viele Vorteile. Da OSM im Prinzip eine grosse Ansamlung von verschiedenen Spezialinteressen ist, sein diese geographisch bedingt oder thematisch bedingt, koennen diese Gruppen helfen aehnlich gesinnte Leute zusammen zu bringen. Es gibt wenig was Leute mehr motiviert an etwas freiwillig zu arbeiten, als wenn man es gemeinsam in einer Gruppe tun kann in der jeder die Muehe die man sich gemacht hat mit dem mapping wuerdigt und einem dafuer auch mal Annerkennung zollt. Solche Gruppen koennen insofern OSM hoffentlich helfen immer besser zu werden, und gleichzeitig den Mappern dabei mehr Spass und Freude bereiten. Allerdings ist es eben wichtig, das es freiwillig ist und das man daran nicht mit machen muss wenn man nicht will. Wenn man in Abgeschiedenheit und privat zu OSM beitragen will (und dabei nicht Anderen in die Quere, z.B. durch edit oder tagging wars kommt) ohne den ganzen soziallen Kram dann ist das auch in Ordnung und nicht die Aufgabe der OSMF oder anderer mapper das zu Beurteilen. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gibt-OSM-auch-Daten-uber-die-Beitragenden-heraus-tp5771392p5771654.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker. rails-dev can sometimes have a reasonably high volume and most of it is boring technical detail, like e.g. if oauth needs relative or absolute URLs to produce valid signatures. This is something most people don't (and probably shouldn't) care about and won't read rails-dev. So putting high level design discussions that does effect everyone who uses osm.org and where because it is subjective, everyone can have a valid opinion on it, is perhaps a bad idea. After all there is a specific list just for this kind of purpose i.e. design@ Of cause fragmenting mailing-lists further and further is probably a bad idea though as well. Kai Michal Migurski-2 wrote On Jul 21, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Michal Migurski wrote: On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists [...] I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow potlatch-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim, etc. etc. All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to rails-dev, so you won't miss anything. (rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called site-dev, but history.) Thank you Richard, I am subscribed. I had not realized that the scope of rails-dev was larger than the technical development and maintenance of the Rails port. For me, this explains past flame-outs of the design@ list. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upgraded-map-controls-tp5770491p5770758.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
lsces wrote With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! As always this is somewhat subjective. Whereas on the desktop, I don't yet see much of an advantage* other than that it is prettier, I think it has somewhat improved the usage on a mobile phone. The larger + - buttons make them more touch friendly (pinch to zoom is very erratic and often doesn't work at all for me) and the new geolocation functionality is a pretty neat feature particularly for mobile use! The notes functionality, which can be useful on a mobile, could probably do with some improvements (the bubbles are to big to fit on a 5 screen properly), but overall are usable. iD pretty much doesn't work at all on a phone, but then editing on a 4 touch screen or on a 24 monitor with mouse and keyboard really are two very different beasts and can't really be used in the same design. There you simply want separate special purpose apps like Vespucci. One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map and adding / checking bugs seem like the most likely candidates. Imho, those work reasonably well with the new design and can probably be fixed up with some specific minor tweaks. For sat-navs and more sophisticated map applications there are a bunch of special purpose apps, some of which work quite well already. Kai * Once the improvements of the share menu go in, that should change and actually add real functionality to the map, which I am looking forward to. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770762.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
lsces wrote The problem is more fundamental than just bad routes, but I suspect Locus is part of the problem as all 4 routers have the same problem. Routing instructions through any junction with link_xxx gives a 'straight on' rather than advising to take the slip road. None of the posts to the relevant list have been answred! OK, this goes so much beyond the change of a few controls on the website, or any website UI design. It really should be an entirely different topic, as this has nothing to do with usability, but goes at the hart of the core data-model and its applicability to turn-by-turn navigation. lsces wrote While the generated instructions give better information, the lack of 'lane' information is the follow on that is also important. A standard for this interchange would also help ... There are proposals for lane tagging lanes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lane; and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn;. There are even mobile apps that already use this information where available to provide lane assist. MapFactor Free being one of them (http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/435/how-to-make-turn-lanes-in-osm-appear-in-mapfactor-free/p1 ), I think OSMAnd also supports this. The problem is that there are so far only few roads mapped with this information But as with any tagging schema, it is really up to the mappers and data users to come up with good proposals that work for both and standardize them. I am hoping that eventually routing will become part of the main site, to help guide and improve the whole routing situation and incentivize mappers to really map the necessary information in a way that is processable by a routing engine. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770766.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
lsces wrote Kai Krueger wrote: One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map to see if an alternate route might be better. Not knowing where one is scale wise, the old scale bar provides an easy and quick to read and one can judge if you need to zoom out a lot or a little. But basic functions for using the map need to be simple. On Firefox for android, Android stock browser and Chrome for Android I see the scale bar clearly at the bottom that tells me much better what the scale is than the zoom scale bar. Opera for Android partially obscures the scale bar with the lower menu. If you don't see the scale bar on your phone, then that probably is a bug somewhere and should be fixed. lsces wrote Currently I'm only seeing the top 4 new right hand buttons, and I can't read the scale at all which is why I've reverted to my own viewer, but the main thing here is that you CAN'T use multiple fingers while driving! So the viewing arrangement I'm looking at - from a SAFETY point of view - is one that can be controlled just by prodding with one finger. Osm.org is not designed to be used while driving and you really shouldn't be using it while driving, as you quite rightfully state it is not safe to use. The cartography of the OSM.org tiles are also not in anyway appropriate for reading the map while driving. I mean you wouldn't stick a paper map on your windscreen either and try and use it to navigate as a driver? If you are trying to use it for driving (as a driver), use one of the sat-nav apps like OsmAnd, Mapfactor Free, NavMII free, Skobbler, or the various other options that exist for android and other mobile platforms. If those apps give you wrong directions and you need to find your own alternative route, then you will have to pull to the side and stop while re-orienting, or give the phone to a passenger that has hands free and can direct you. This is not (and will never be) the job of osm.org and so it imho isn't a valid use case to optimize the UI of osm.org for. It is probably not even legal to operate your phone this way while driving. lsces wrote Note that I'm not saying that the main map should change - this is mobile technology use, but personally I WOULD like to have the option to select the old style layout. It's not fundamental to how the map works - it's only a style sheet, and we could have several - including mobile centric ones? It is quite a lot of work to keep multiple options working, tested and in sync. As there is a shortage of developers for the main website already anyway and one needs to prioritize what can be achieved, this seems rather low on the priority list. Perhaps in the future someone will submit a patch to implement something like Wikipedia's user styles which might solve some of your issues. Well, actually, there are already different styles as part of the CSS for mobile and printers to optimize for different viewing patterns. I am not a fan of just changing things to make them prettier without adding functionality, or even less of the website hasn't changed in X years, we need to change things to make it modern either, but having multiple versions beyond what we already have is just likely not really feasible at the moment. There are imho more important things to fix or optimize. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770783.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Sinn und Unsinn von Fehlermeldungen (auf osm.org)
Tirkon wrote Wenn sich ein OSMler in ein Gebiet begibt, um es mappen, dann... Andererseits wird niemand zig Kilometer weit fahren, nur um einen Bug zu klären. Für den Preis muss doch schon ein größeres Gebiet flächendeckend herausspringen. Auch nicht besser ist, zig Kilometer weit zu fahren um zu schauen ob sich inzwischen etwas geaendert hat, nur um dann fest zu stellen, nein, alles ist noch aktuell... Wenn ein Land erst einmal erfasst ist, ist die Zeit in der ein Powermapper mal eben ein groesseres Gebiet als Belohnung bekommt vorbei. Deshalb braucht es fuer das aktuell halten der Daten ein vielfaches an mappern als fuer die Ersterfassung benoetigt wurden. Dafuer braucht es dann die grosse Masse an Leuten die vielleicht mal ein Fehler melden und dann nie wieder. Eine der vielen mittle / gelegenheits mapper kann dann einen ein paar hundert Meter weiten Umweg machen um ein spezifisches Problem das gemeldet wurde zu ueberpruefen und zu korrigieren. Powermapper werden dann hauptsaechlich armchair mapper werden die anderen helfen komplizierte Relationen in Ordnung zu halten und schauen das nichts kaputt geht. Natuerlich benoetigt es dafuer eine sehr hohe Dichte an (gelegenheits) Mappern, aber anders ist das aktuell halten der Karte nicht wirklich moeglich. Und fuer dieses Modell ist die Fehlermeldung auf osm.org imho sehr wichtig und sinnvoll. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Sinn-und-Unsinn-von-Fehlermeldungen-auf-osm-org-tp5770713p5770749.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] 5 Jahre OSM - eine persönliche Bilanz
RainerU-2 wrote Ansonsten sehe ich das Thema des Zugangs zu den Anwendungen ähnlich wie Stephan. Ich habe in den letzten Monaten viel Werbung für OSM in Gruppen gemacht, die sich mit ganz anderen Dingen befassen (Linux, Radfahren, Verwaltung). Die Leute sind anfangs sehr interessiert und auch bereit OSM statt Google zu nutzen, aber am Ende steht dann die Frage nach einer POI-Karte, einer Routing-Anwendung und der Möglichkeit einen Marker zu setzen und den Link darauf zu verschicken. Wenn man dann drei verschiedene Seiten für jeden dieser Bedarfe aufzählt, dann ist für die meisten das Thema gegessen. Hinzu kommt, dass keine dieser Seiten, die Erwartungshaltung an Bedienungsfreundlich des Nicht-Mappers erfüllt. Zumindestens bezueglich der Marker, wird es vielleicht sehr bald eine Verbesserung geben. Es ist geplant die gerade durchgefuehrte reorganisation der OSM.org Karten-UI dahin zu erweitern das es eine einfache Moeglichkeit geben wird einen permalink mit Marker zu erstellen. Das ganze ist dann im share menu untergebracht. Ein mock-up davon kann man unter https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/98601/778982/12bfaae4-e9c1-11e2-8afa-826d25c371cb.png sehen. Je nach dem wie gut das die Beduerfnisse fuer Marker erfuellt kann man es auch vielleicht noch weiter ausbauen. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/5-Jahre-OSM-eine-personliche-Bilanz-tp5770028p5770446.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-us] Steady increase in the number of mappers in the US
On 07/19/2013 11:06 AM, Kathleen Danielson wrote: Kai-- those are some really great ideas around publicity! Personally, I think we'd need a dedicated PR person on staff to fully accomplish this. That's not really feasible in the near term, though-- so maybe we should think about ways that we can break that down into volunteer-sized tasks? One good start might be to collect information about what has already being done. e.g. on the site http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_in_the_media i.e. make sure that all of the articles that are known about are listed and whether anyone in the community worked with the press to make it happen. For events like conferences or trade shows, it might be worth to create a little wiki page about what was done, when and by whom ( e.g. like http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Boot_D%C3%BCsseldorf_2012 ) and add it to the wiki category http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Promotion So far the ones listed are mostly in German speaking countries. We need to be able to add some things in the US as well! That might give some help to figure out who to talk to if you are planning something yourself. This seems like a great Birthday Sprint project... (hint hint...) Yes, that would be a good topic and might go well with beer, cake and celebrations... Non OSM conferences and trade shows also seem like a great opportunity for OSM outreach and publicity, as those events can often also reach hundreds or thousands of people, many of whom might act as multiplicators as they are often the more active members in their community. Can the folks who were at the Esri UC talk about the OSM presence, the mapping party, and how that all went? On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com mailto:kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: Clifford Snow wrote I'll start by just listing a few of my thoughts: We need publicity! Yes! Publicity is in my opinion one of the biggest things we need and should try and work on as a group. Looking at the data, it is clear that when ever there was significant publicity on OSM, the number of editors (particularly new ones) has shot up, at least for a while. While local mapping events are great and important, they probably only manage to get a handful of new mappers if at all. Having an article in a news paper or significant blog on the other hand is likely to get many more new mappers. Non OSM conferences and trade shows also seem like a great opportunity for OSM outreach and publicity, as those events can often also reach hundreds or thousands of people, many of whom might act as multiplicators as they are often the more active members in their community. So perhaps instead of setting targets of that we want to achieve X number of active mappers in a certain time frame, we could set a target of aiming to have Y articles about OSM in the press and Z talks / booths at conferences by then. Those targets are much more tangible than the number of active mappers as how any given action will effect that number is rather more speculative. As a group in osm-us, we can perhaps work on identifying likely magazines and conferences that would have an interest in high quality open maps. Which groups with interest might be particularly underrepresented and therefor good candidates for outreach? Furthermore, we can exchange ideas of what worked best at those events in order to improve the marketing message. E.g. how does one convince an editor that writing about OSM is worthwhile thing to do for their audience. How can you become a guest author to write an article for them and get it accepted? Which aspects of OSM are particularly amenably for writing good articles? If you go to have a booth at a show, what are things easiest to demonstrate? What are the demos that spark most interest? Then we can find local volunteers who actually go to the events or talk to editors to do the real outreach. We still have a long way to go from the 0.6 mappers per 1M population in the US to the 9 mappers per 1M population in Austria, but collectively we hopeful have enough skill and enthusiasm to really work on improving our PR and push those numbers up. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Steady-increase-in-the-number-of-mappers-in-the-US-tp5770307p5770442.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Steady increase in the number of mappers in the US
Clifford Snow wrote I'll start by just listing a few of my thoughts: We need publicity! Yes! Publicity is in my opinion one of the biggest things we need and should try and work on as a group. Looking at the data, it is clear that when ever there was significant publicity on OSM, the number of editors (particularly new ones) has shot up, at least for a while. While local mapping events are great and important, they probably only manage to get a handful of new mappers if at all. Having an article in a news paper or significant blog on the other hand is likely to get many more new mappers. Non OSM conferences and trade shows also seem like a great opportunity for OSM outreach and publicity, as those events can often also reach hundreds or thousands of people, many of whom might act as multiplicators as they are often the more active members in their community. So perhaps instead of setting targets of that we want to achieve X number of active mappers in a certain time frame, we could set a target of aiming to have Y articles about OSM in the press and Z talks / booths at conferences by then. Those targets are much more tangible than the number of active mappers as how any given action will effect that number is rather more speculative. As a group in osm-us, we can perhaps work on identifying likely magazines and conferences that would have an interest in high quality open maps. Which groups with interest might be particularly underrepresented and therefor good candidates for outreach? Furthermore, we can exchange ideas of what worked best at those events in order to improve the marketing message. E.g. how does one convince an editor that writing about OSM is worthwhile thing to do for their audience. How can you become a guest author to write an article for them and get it accepted? Which aspects of OSM are particularly amenably for writing good articles? If you go to have a booth at a show, what are things easiest to demonstrate? What are the demos that spark most interest? Then we can find local volunteers who actually go to the events or talk to editors to do the real outreach. We still have a long way to go from the 0.6 mappers per 1M population in the US to the 9 mappers per 1M population in Austria, but collectively we hopeful have enough skill and enthusiasm to really work on improving our PR and push those numbers up. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Steady-increase-in-the-number-of-mappers-in-the-US-tp5770307p5770442.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Steady increase in the number of mappers in the US
On 07/19/2013 09:57 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Similarly, when the Washington Post covered the local DC hackerspace, we had two people stop in at the space (only two!) and neither of them joined. I'm not sure that two events are enough data points to state that publicity doesn't work. Let me give you more datapoints. We actually has two stories about MappingDC, one in the Post, and one in a government publication. Neither of those created any sustainable community. How do you measure sustainable community? Not everyone is going to come in person to one of the OSM events and that is perfectly fine. Many people might also hear about a project, become aware of it but then not contribute until months later. And for many there is the need for repetition. The first time they read about something, they might think it is an interesting project while reading and then forget about it. The second time they hear about it they might think it seems like it is catching on. Only the third (or likely even more often) time they hear about it will they think, this really sounds like a worthwhile project to contribute to, I should give it a try. To get a sustainable community, you need sustained PR. At some point a project is well known enough that just normal social interaction between the general public talking about it is sufficient to sustain the community. But with about half a mapper per 1 million population, OSM is still far away from that level in the US. Atlanta had a huge event through Cloudmade's ambassador program, with 200 attendees, and CNN coverage. Thea (the ambassador) invested a ton of time and energy into that community. But a couple of years later, and they were gone. That's a real shame that all that effort didn't lead to more. It might be an interesting case study to try and figure out what went wrong there. With 200 people that likely was one of the bigger events in OSMs history. Much bigger than many of the other activity in OSM that has lead to sustainable communities. Their community consisted mostly of OSM consumers, people working for groups interested in consuming OSM data, or talking about imports, but not of mappers. I really wanted Atlanta to work. There was enormous investment of time and resources in it, and outreach to universities, government agencies and businesses. I was hopeful at the time that data consumers would turn into contributors, but it largely didn't happen. These organizations are very interested in OSM as a datasource, but contributing is another matter, and organizing is yet a different matter still. These people were interested in OSM, but they weren't invested in OSM emotionally. I want to be clear that I think there's a very important place for outreach to data consumers, but I've learned not to expect that these people will turn into OSM contributors (I'm thrilled if they do, but I no longer come with the expectation that they will). The conversion rate is likely going to be low. That is always going to be the case. But if you have millions of users, then even if only 1% map that is already a large group. And if the download stats on various sat nav apps for smart phones based solely on OSM data alone are anything to go by, then OSM already has millions of users. However, for average data consumers to become mappers, it requires them to recognize OSM and know the data source is OSM. For that to happen, it needs a lot of PR to build a brand name for OSM, as well as more help from the various data consumer developers to make end users more aware of powered by OSM. Continuing to work more on both contributor marks and attribution marks with strong brand ties to the existing logo could hopefully help in that respect. I also feel that I owe both Russ Nelson and Richard Weait an apology. It's because of Richard's initial visit to DC that I heard about OSM and became interested in it, and it's because of Russ Nelson's visit that Kate Chapman, Steven Johnson, Katie Filbert and I all started MappingDC (and we started it together, as a group). So yes, it's possible to spark a community by a visit, but AFAIK, for all both of their hard work, DC was the only community where the work was sustained. Any thoughts on what sustains members? Yes, it's consistency. That's the #1 most important thing that sustains members. Run events regularly, monthly is best. And if you can, make it the same day. And if you can, make it the same place. Well, in the end, it is likely going to be a combination of all three. 1) People first need to be aware of OSM, as otherwise they won't contribute or come to any events. 2) There needs to be a reason to contribute. For many that is going to be products based on OSM that a 3) Finally the social events to turn casual mappers into power mappers and community organisers that are needed to keep the project
Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
In general I agree with a lot of your points, and too find it still rather difficult to use OSM on a daily basis as a map solution. Too often I find my self having to revert to using google maps even though I do know many of the listed third party sites. My main issues are public transport routing and to a lesser degree geocoding / search as the OSM solutions are generally less flexible or forgiving to inaccuracies. For more special interest purposes, OSM on the otherhand often does win out already compared to gmaps. However, I think the situation is improving and the usefulness of OSM.org could be improved further helping the OSM brandname, without having to be a full google maps replacement. With regard to competing with commercial OSM users: My impression is that nearly all businesses around OSM, aren't really trying to be a direct competitor to google maps either. And with perhaps the exception of open mapquest, non of them are trying to build an end-user facing mapping portal as a website. Instead nearly all of them are trying to sell products and services or use OSM data directly in third party sites like Fourscare, craigslist, News sites, or games, where maps are important, but not the central focus of the company. Or they use OSM in the mobile domain. So expanding osm.org to cater to more of average joe's mapping needs won't hurt any of the OSM based businesses, as it doesn't impact their business model. To the contrary, I am sure most of them would love to see a strengthening of the OSM brand and an associated improvement of the mapdata. And even if it did. OSM's primary purpose isn't to provide businesses with free resources to make money. Commenting on some of your points more directly: Guillaume Pratte wrote Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the map's data in order to have information on a point of interest? This has been on the wish list for a while, as this feature is rather important / useful even if you don't want to cater to the end-user. By visualising more of the currently hidden data, it is likely to encourage more mappers to add the data. However, this feature seems to have mostly failed due to a lack of developers adopting this project and getting bringing it to conclusion. Also there was never quite consensus over what the technically best way to implement this feature was to be scalable enough for osm.org. However, if there is a developer who could push this feature, there is a good chance that it would end up on osm.org Guillaume Pratte wrote Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp-- What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data. This aspect at least is likely going to be fixed soon. Once the new rendering server is in production there hopefully will be a Z19 ( http://orm.openstreetmap.org/#19/45.49753/-73.57669 ) Guillaume Pratte wrote Fifth point: routing. Why is there absolutely no routing implemented on the main OpenStreetMap website? This is I concede a naïve question, as it might be simply because of limited server resources. Once we have our new servers, is this something we want to implement, as a community? This has also been on the todo list for a long time. There also exists at least a partial implementation ( http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/routing# ), but it never quite reached the necessary maturity to actually get merged. Furthermore, so far the server resources to run the backend of a full scale routing engine weren't available. Once Phase II of the funding drive ( http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/06/26/extending-funding-drive/ ) has completed that might change and hopefully routing will finally be added to the main page. But things don't always progress as quickly as one would like in a large community driven project. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Using-OpenStreetMap-on-a-daily-basis-tp5768864p5769228.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: A short online questionnaire on the OSM users .....(It takes 48 seconds)
I tried sending this mail through nabble earlier on, but it doesn't seem to have gone through, so I'll try and resend. If you did get this email twice, I apologise. - Clifford Snow wrote Your survey is mostly demographics. There were two actual questions related to mapping. I'm not sure what you hope to achieve. Understanding the demographics of the mapping community can be a very interesting question and topic of research. After all, there has just been set up a new mailing list diversity-talk, to discuss the demographics of openstreetmap and how to achieve a broad appeal to many different demographic groups. Having some good hard numbers about the current situation, to augment the data we already have, would be rather helpful. If good methods can be worked out how to achieve those numbers, these studies can be repeated periodically. That can then be helpful, amongst other things, to see if various outreach programs to try and diversify the community have had success, and if yes in which demographics. Understanding the motivation of mappers can also be hugely interesting! This information can help figure out how best to promote OSM and get more people involved in mapping and where best to focus efforts to attract more people. Clifford Snow wrote Please rethink this survey and try again. Without knowing the questions this research is trying to answer and what other tools and data they are using as well as their analysis method, you cannot judge if it is a good survey and appropriately set up for the questions it hopes to address. Furthermore, good research in social sciences is often incredibly difficult. As you usually have no interventional control on the subject of study and you often have to deal with subjective reports in surveys. So it is often not uncommon to have to ask many seemingly redundant and strange questions in order to get around or detect biases. Clifford Snow wrote As Frederik Ramm suggest, please explain more about your research. I would be very interested in hearing more about the research as well. However, there are situations when you don't want to reveal the actual questions you are interested in ahead of time to your survey participants as alone the knowledge of what the researcher is interested can bias the results. With the relatively factual questions of this survey that seems less likely though.. Overall, I think there is more than enough room for a lot of different research, both social and gis research in the OSM community and its data. Imho it is great to see research into these topics and the more the better! Kai ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: A short online questionnaire on the OSM users .....(It takes 48 seconds)
Clifford Snow wrote Your survey is mostly demographics. There were two actual questions related to mapping. I'm not sure what you hope to achieve. Understanding the demographics of the mapping community can be a very interesting question and topic of research. After all, there has just been set up a new mailing list diversity-talk, to discuss the demographics of openstreetmap and how to achieve a broad appeal to many different demographic groups. Having some good hard numbers about the current situation, to augment the data we already have, would be rather helpful. If good methods can be worked out how to achieve those numbers, these studies can be repeated periodically. That can then be helpful, amongst other things, to see if various outreach programs to try and diversify the community have had success, and if yes in which demographics. Understanding the motivation of mappers can also be hugely interesting! This information can help figure out how best to promote OSM and get more people involved in mapping and where best to focus efforts to attract more people. Clifford Snow wrote Please rethink this survey and try again. Without knowing the questions this research is trying to answer and what other tools and data they are using as well as their analysis method, you cannot judge if it is a good survey and appropriately set up for the questions it hopes to address. Furthermore, good research in social sciences is often incredibly difficult. As you usually have no interventional control on the subject of study and you often have to deal with subjective reports in surveys. So it is often not uncommon to have to ask many seemingly redundant and strange questions in order to get around or detect biases. Clifford Snow wrote As Frederik Ramm suggest, please explain more about your research. I would be very interested in hearing more about the research as well. However, there are situations when you don't want to reveal the actual questions you are interested in ahead of time to your survey participants as alone the knowledge of what the researcher is interested can bias the results. With the relatively factual questions of this survey that seems less likely though.. Overall, I think there is more than enough room for a lot of different research, both social and gis research in the OSM community and its data. Imho it is great to see research into these topics and the more the better! -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-A-short-online-questionnaire-on-the-OSM-users-It-takes-48-seconds-tp5767270p5767309.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] openstreetmap.org und IPV6
Timo Matthias wrote http://tile.openstreetmap.org/ scheint noch auch IPv4 zu laufen, ich weiß nicht ob es am Firefox (mir) liegt oder noch mehr das Problem haben. Könnte es mal jemand gegen checken? tile.openstreetmap.org unterstuetzt derzeit leider bislang noch kein IPv6. Das Hauptproblem ist so weit ich weis das die vorgelagerten proxy server des Tile CDNs noch auf Squid 2.7 laufen und das unterstuetzt IPv6 nicht. Insofern muess dies zuerst ubgedatet werden bevor IPv6 auf tile.osm.org aktiviert werden kann. Allerdings gibt es ein paar Funktionen die osm.org in Squid 2.7 verwendet, die wohl nicht in der Form unterstuetzt werden (Tile throttling und coss-storage) und somit derzeit ein Update verhindern, bzw zu Aufwendig machen um die Aenderungen zu Testen fuer was es an Vorteil bringt. Bis auf UCL (dem Hoster des Backend tileservers), haben aber die meisten der Tile CDN inzwischen eine IPv6 Verbindung, so das so bald die Proxy software es unterstuetzt, die Aktivierung von IPv6 hoffentlich kein Problem sein sollte. Allerdings bieten so weit ich weis leider auch keine der anderen oeffentlich verfuegbaren Tile server IPv6 an, obwohl mod_tile (und wahrscheinlich auch die anderen Tile server) das eigentlich ohne Probleme beherschen sollte. Damit das OSM.org ueberhaupt IPv6 in vielen der Dienste anbietet ist es zum Glueck (oder je nachdem wie man es sieht leider) den meisten anderen Webseiten dennoch voraus. Insgesamt schein sich das Thema aber langsam schon voran zu bewegen. Die Schweiz zum Beispiel hat wohl gerade die Marke von 10% aller Internetuser die IPv6 verwenden ueberschritten! :-) Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/openstreetmap-org-und-IPV6-tp5764279p5764280.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] openstreetmap.org und IPV6
Walter Nordmann wrote Somit geht er zu www.openstreetmap.org über IPv6 und zu tile.openstreetmap.org halt über IPv4. So transparent, dass ich mir noch nie Gedanken darüber machen musste. Ja, so sollte es auch sein. Der Endanwender sollte eigentlich nichts von der Umstellung merken, und das klappt in den meisten Faellen auch. Desshalb haben ja seit letztem Jahr Google, Youtube, Facebook, Wikipedia, Netflix, Heise und viele anderen auch auf dual stack ohne nennenswerte Probleme umstellen koennen. Allerdings sind in Asian in 2011 und 2012 in Europa die IP Addressen ausgegangen, so das man ohne IPv6 viele Endgeraete bald nicht mehr von aussen erreichen kann, wodurch immer mehr Dienste nicht mehr wie frueher machbar sind und das Internet ohne IPv6 immer weiter kaputt geht. Viele Unitymedia Kunden erfahren diese derzeit leidvoll, bei denen Sachen wie Fernwartung, Onlinespiele, peer-to-peer Dienste oder die eigene private cloud nicht mehr (oder nur noch mit Veraenkungen) funktioniern. Erst mit der grossflaechigen Umstellung auf IPv6 wird das wieder besser. Auch wenn Webseiten wie OpenStreetMap.org nicht zu den Diensten gehoeren die kaputt gehen und dort die Umstellung somit noch lange nicht wirklich noetig ist, je mehr Seiten, Dienste und Provider bald auf IPv6 umgestellen, desto schneller hoffentlich vollzieht sich die gesammte Umstellung und die leidvolle Uebergangszeit verkuerzt sich. Die Umstellung laeuft inzwischen schon seit 15 Jahren. Es wird also Zeit das sie endlich abgeschlossen wird. Insofern ist es aus technischer Sicht schon wichtig das OSM komplett mit IPv6 zurecht kommt. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/openstreetmap-org-und-IPV6-tp5764279p5764330.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality
Martijn van Exel-3 wrote As already noted, quality is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, quality lies in the eye of the beholder. Or perhaps better said in the eye of the data consumer. Therefore the assessment of quality will depend on the application and use case you have in mind. I think OSM has enough commercial users by now to be able to get a decent (subjective) overview of data quality without doing a scientific analysis of data quality one self. Instead one can probably ask the various developers of frequently used software based on OSM data, what the most common complaints of their respective end users are about the data. That should give a pretty decent overview of the data quality in practical terms and where the OSM community could possibly best focus their efforts to improve the quality of the data. Either through more mappers, or by quality control tools and perhaps even bots. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-Data-Quality-tp5763578p5763613.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-de] Der neue Editor iD is nun auf osm.org verfuegbar.
Hallo allerseits, Heute wurde der neue iD editor auf OpenStreetMap.org eingefuehrt [1] und kann ab sofort als Alternative zu Potlatch und JOSM verwendet werden. Falls Ihr ihn noch nicht kennt oder noch nicht ausprobiert habt, es ist ein Editor der sich bewusst an Neueinsteiger richtet und versucht das Editieren von OSM so einfach wie moeglich zu machen, in dem er die technischen Details von OSM so weit wie moeglich versteckt. Ausserdem ist er komplett in JavaScript geschrieben worden, sodass man kein Flash mehr dafuer benoetigt. Wenn ich mich nicht taeusche wurde iD von Richard Fairhurst, dem Author von Potlatch initiert und der Grossteil der Entwicklung wurde dann von MapBox uebernommen als Teil des $575k Grants der Knight Foundation, den sie letztes Jahr zur Verbesserung von OSM erhalten hatten. Im Moment kann man iD ausprobieren in dem man auf das Bearbeiten-Auswahlmenu click und iD auswaehlt (bzw es in seinen Einstellungen als default waehlt). Moeglicherweise in Kuerze soll es aber auch bereits zum generellen default Editor aufsteigen, so dass dann alle Neueinsteiger mit iD anfangen wuerden zu bearbeiten. Konkrete Verbesserungsvorschlaege bzw Fehler werden wahrscheinlich am besten direkt auf dem iD Issue tracker ( https://github.com/systemed/iD ) gemeldet. Generelle Diskussionen, zu mindestens wenn man die Autoren von iD erreichen will, sind vermutlich am besten auf der englischen talk Liste aufgehoben. Kai [1] http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/05/07/openstreetmap-launches-all-new-easy-map-editor-and-announces-funding-appeal/ ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Rendering-Intervalle der Karte
tumsi wrote Gibt es irgendwo eine Übersicht, welche Regionen der Welt in welchen Intervallen neu gerendert werden (ich meine natürlich die Karte auf openstreetmap.org)? https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/11179/wie-haeufig-wird-die-standard-karte-auf-osmorg-aktualisiert gibt eine Beschreibung wie der ganze Prozess funktioniert und welche verzoegerungen wo statt findet. Kurz gesagt, sollten aber wie hier bereits erwaehnt, Aenderungen meist in wenigen Minuten auf der Karte erscheinen. Wenn sich allerdings nichts an der Karte aendert, wird sie auch nicht neu gerendert. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Rendering-Intervalle-der-Karte-tp5759262p5759307.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Add a note
Wolfgang Hinsch wrote Das ganze 2x übersetzen, [...] und einmal auf Deutsch. Nicht vergessen: Der unbedarfte Benutzer kommt von einer deutsch gestalteten Seite. Translatewiki hat nun die erste Synchronisation durchgefuehrt, so dass der Text jetzt auf Translatewiki uebersetzt werden kann. Mit der naechsten Synchronisation zieht der uebersetzte Text dann auf osm.org ein. Wolfgang Hinsch wrote Tante G. kann das übrigens besser. Nach „Problem melden” landet man in einem deutschsprachigen Popup, das einigermaßen verständlich ist. Im deutschen Forum wird gerade darueber diskutiert wie man den Begriff Note am besten uebersetzt. Eher woertlich in Notiz oder Anmerkung oder eher freizuegig, aber der Intention entsprechend in etwas wie Fehler melden. ( http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=330928#p330928 und folgende Beitraege) Es waere wahrscheinlich gut wenn die deutschsprachige Community sich darauf einigen kann, wie man den Text und die Begriffe am besten Uebersetzen sollte um das ganze so verstaendlich wie moeglich zu machen. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Add-a-note-tp5758579p5758918.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)
Mike wrote I think the root of this issue is lack of strong OpenStreetMap brand, or, at least, lack of visual identity of the brand. Current OSM logo lacks necessary properties of good brand visual identification, and thus it is not used much. The most obvious problem is it is not usable - you cannot use it as small mark in corner of the map as when resized to needed small resolution image it becomes unreadable. Is that really the case? At least for the typical web map I am not sure I'd agree that the current logo is a problem. At the same size as the Google or Bing logo is on their maps (which seems to be perfectly acceptable to a wide majority of users), the standard OSM logo seems just fine. Even the extended text based log ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_linkage.png ) seems fine at the typical size of webmap attribution logos. Obviously, it is not workable in all cases. E.g. on a small mobile screen it would use up to much screen real estate, but that is probably true for any significant graphical logo. There the attribution could e.g. be on a separate about screen, or in textual form, which is appropriate for the medium. But the majority of cases would imho be fine with the current logo(s). Therefore my preference would be to recommend people to use the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_linkage.png logo were possible and otherwise fall back to the (c) OpenStreetMap contributors, ODbL Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/RFC-updated-OSM-Attribution-Mark-was-contributor-mark-tp5758043p5758615.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)
dieterdreist wrote that logo is old, it is based on the version we used prior to 29 April 2011. The current logo is this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=File:Public-images-osm_logo.svgpage=1 The logo you linked to replaced the logo http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Mag_map-120x120.png . The logo I linked to has always been as an alternative and contains the words OpenStreetMap in it, which is why it is imho currently best suited for attribution. One probably should update it though, to reflect the changes in the magnifying lens from the old to new logo. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/RFC-updated-OSM-Attribution-Mark-was-contributor-mark-tp5758043p5758700.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Verwenden der Tiles von toolserver.org
Peter Wendorff wrote Hallo Rainer, Der Toolserver ist ein Projekt von Wikimedia (insbesondere Wikimedia Deutschland). Im Moment stirbt der Toolserver selbst allerdings. Stattdessen werden die darauf laufenden Tools zum Teil/Großteil/... in Wikimedia Labs weiterleben. Wie das genau mit den osm-no-labels-Tiles aussieht, weiß ich nicht. Es ist richtig, das es Bestrebungen gibt den Toolserver durch wikipedia-labs zu ersetzen, aber die plaene kommen wohl teilweise nur langsam voran, so das es den Toolserver wohl schon noch eine Weile geben wird. Im Gegenteil fuer die diversen Kartenstiles die auf dem Toolserver gehostet sind, sind wir sogar dabei das ganze auf einen neuen (hoffentlich leistungsfaehigeren) Server umzustellen. Wie die ganze Situation allerdings in ein zwei Jahren aussieht moechte ich nicht vorhersagen. Peter Wendorff wrote Fragen kannst Du dazu am besten Kai Krüger (kolossos), Kolossos ist im uebrigen Tim Alder, nicht ich. Ich helfe zwar den Tileserver auf Toolserver zu administrieren, und kann somit hoffentlich technische Fragen beantworten, aber zu Policy Fragen moechte ich mich eigentlich eher nicht auessern, da ich nicht in den politischen Entscheidungsstrukturen von Wikimedia Deutschland bin. Eine explizite Nutzerbedingung gibt es glaube ich derzeit noch nicht. Da ist Tim vermutlich die bessere Person zu fragen. Bislang war soweit ich weis die Policy jedoch relative freizuegig. Allerdings ist der Sever fuer die Zahl der Style die er ausliefert relativ schwach, insofer koennte er im Moment die Verwendung auf einer groesseren Website nicht verkraften. Bei einer kleinen Webseite oder Projekt ist es aber wahrscheinlich ok die tiles zu verwenden. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Verwenden-der-Tiles-von-toolserver-org-tp5758402p5758602.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Add a note
Wolfgang Hinsch wrote Schön, aber unverständlich, insbesondere für den deutschsprachigen Außenseiter (um _den_ geht es mir), der auf einer deutschsprachigen Seite auf einen unverständlichen englischen Text trifft. Wie alles auf OpenStreetMap, wird auch der Text auf translatewiki[1] uebersetzbar sein und somit sehr bald ins Deutsche uebersetzt weden. Die Synchronization zwischen TranslateWiki und OpenStreetMap laeuft jedoch nur alle paar Tage, insofern wird es noch ein paar Tage dauern bis der Text uebersetzt ist. Kai [1] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:OpenStreetMap -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Add-a-note-tp5758579p5758708.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Add a note
Wolfgang Hinsch wrote Hallo, das war ja schon mal angekündigt worden. Ich meine aber, dass das so auf der Hauptseite reichlich daneben ist. Niemand weiß, was das eigentlich soll. Kann man da jetzt POIs eintragen, private Notizen machen oder die Karte verbessern? Der Text der in der Add a note steht beantwortet eigentlich diese Fragen. In order to improve the map the information you enter is shown to other mappers, so please be as descriptive and precise as possible when moving the marker to the correct position and entering yo\ ur note below. In order to improve the map - Der Zweg ist die Karte zu verbessern the information you enter is shown to other mappers - Die Information die man eintraegt ist oeffentilch. moeving the marker to the correct position - Man soll die Notiz an die richtige Stelle verschieben um so aussage kraeftig wie moeglich zu sein. Man koennte noch ein more Information Link einbauen, der dann z.B. auf die Wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Notes verweist, wo noch einmal genauer steht was der Zweg ist und wie man es am besten Nutzt. Aber wie das meiste in OSM, ist auch dieses recht frei und flexibel und anderer nuetzliche Einsatzarten koennen sich in Zunkunft moeglicherweise herauskristalisieren. Wolfgang Hinsch wrote Ich weiß, dass das in OSB münden soll, aber das erschließt sich dem unbedarften Benutzer mit Sicherheit nicht. Voerschlaege wie man es dem unbedarften Benutzer ersichtlicher macht? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Add-a-note-tp5758579p5758586.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Warum ist die OSM-DB down?
Chris66 wrote Voraussichtlich Dienstag geht es weiter: Es stellt sich heraus das Grant (einer der OSM sysadmins) doch heute Zugang zum Rechenzentrum bekommen hat. Nachdem die kaputte Hardware ausgetauscht wurde, lies sich der DB server wieder starten und die API ist nun wieder Online. Das OSM Osterwochenende ist somit ja noch einmal gerettet ;-) Insofern, ein grossen Danke an die Sysadmins die diese Hardwareprobleme so zuegig gefixed bekommen haben. Und allen ein frohes mapping... Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Warum-ist-die-OSM-DB-down-tp5755288p5755357.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Naviagtion mit OSM-Karten unter Android
Hallo, eine weitere moegliche Alternative koennte Mapfactor Navigator Free sein. Es kann zwar glaube ich nicht alle der gelisteten Forderungen, aber die meisten der noetigen Funktionen fuer offline Navigation sollte es beherschen. Ich habe es zwar noch nicht auf einem Android ausprobiert, aber auf WinCE Geraeten laeuft es eigentlich sehr gut und ist damit meiner Meinung nach bestens geeignet z.B. alte rum liegende WinCE basierte SatNav Geraete wieder aktuell und funktionstuechtig und nuetzlich zu bekommen. In vielerlei hinsicht kann es imho fast mit komerziellen Geraeten wie z.B. Navigon mithalten. Ausserdem scheinen die Entwickler durchaus bemueht zu sein die diversen Tagging Schemate in OSM zu beruecksichtigen um moeglichst viel aus den Daten herauszuholen. Z.B. seit neuestem das lanes tagging um Lane assist funktionen anbieten zu koennen. Allerdings ist es keine OpenSource Software und die OSM Daten koennen nur von denen in ihr Format konvertiert werden, was ca. ein mal im Monat geschieht. Da ich osmAnd und die anderen nicht kenne, kann ich auch nichts sagen ob eines besser oder schlechter als das andere ist. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Naviagtion-mit-OSM-Karten-unter-Android-tp5753526p5753749.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?
Clifford Snow wrote Frederik, I want to make sure we are clear. Are you signaling your belief that we need some strategic planning? Well, what does strategic planning even mean in the context of OSMF? OSMF currently operates under the strategy of keeping its influence pretty much as minimal as somehow possible. It mostly limits it self to operating the servers for the editing api and publishing a weekly planet dump. Everything else is kind of outside of the scope of the OSMF and to be provided by third parties. This strategy is implemented to such a degree that e.g. not even planet extracts to make the unwieldy monolithic planet file usable are provided by OSMF but by third parties. It operates under the strategy that anything that can conceivably be provided by third parties should. OSMF does not e.g. fund software development, it does very limited to no funding of outreach or PR, it does not provide any (or very limited) client applications / services. State of the Map is probably the only major exception to this rule and people have proposed to move that out of the scope of OSMF too, as has successfully been done with organizing the regional State of the Map conferences. All of that can be (and is) done without the involvement of the OSMF. For example funded Software development has been done by companies like CloudMade, MapQuest on a company budget, or Mapbox that applied for external funding through the Knight foundation to develop OpenStreetMap software like e.g. the iD editor. Developer resources like Toolservers have for example been provided by third parties like the German Chapter, US Chapter or the French Chapter, or Wikimedia through the OSM toolserver, or through Rambler or probably a number of others I have forgotten. PR resources have been provided to the community by yet more third party sources, like e.g. some of the offers of Geofabrik to print PR materials to use in various ways like e.g. to man booths on trade shows. Outreach has been done by yet more third parties like e.g. H.O.T. or like the community ambassador programs of CloudMade. So again the strategy of OSMF has been to not pick winners or loosers to use a political term but let the community a free hand in anything that isn't absolutely necessary to centralize, which covers the servers necessary for the editing API, protecting the core data in the database and legal issues like the license, copy right violations and trandemark issues). Personally I am not the biggest fan of this rather libertarian approach, but it is a perfectly valid strategy for OSMF to take and which approach would ultimately lead to more success for OSM is pretty much impossible to factually determine and is thus left to personal opinion and controversial political debate. Under this premises what would strategic planning for the OSMF look like? Well, it would pretty much be an extremely technical discussion about the scalability of the server hardware. Although that might be a fascinating topic for some, I doubt that is what is meant by strategic planning in this debate and I don't really see any issues with that at the moment. In that light, one can also see the success and failure of the previous attempts of the SWG. As Richard pointed out, one of the successes of the SWG was to establish a policy of inclusion of third party tiles in the layer chooser. Although I think it was an important achievement, and as a member of the SWG at the time helped formulate it, I wouldn't directly call that strategic planning. Most other topics successfully handled were also pretty short sighted technical aspects if I remember correctly. But that is at least partly because there simply isn't any scope for strategic planning in the current model of the OSMF. So anyone who wants to do any strategic planning must first of all massively expand the resources, scope and responsibilities of OSMF. However, given that OSMF already even with its extremely limited scope of responsibilities suffers under a massive trust issues where far too many active members of the OSM community seem to find a huge conspiracy theory in each action OSMF takes, I don't see how a big expansion of responsibilities of the OSMF would be accepted by the community without hugely costly and probably damaging political fights. The alternative is to do these strategic planes outside of the OSMF, e.g. in one of the local chapters or topic specific groups like H.O.T. Nothing stops them from devising great and strategically thought out PR campaigns. No one stops them from providing valuable resources that have been identified as strategically important for the growth of OSM. No one stops them from fund raising to support those activities (although there are some possibly unresolved issues with the use of the OpenStreetMap trademark in those PR and fund raising activities). No one stops them from developing those killer application that will make everyone want to use and contribute to OSM. It is
Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue
Jochen123 wrote On Sat, Feb 02, 2013 at 04:45:56PM +0100, Simon Poole wrote: I'm reaching out to our counsel to see if we can release the CD, but IMHO it is unlikely. Further I know that the statement has caused some Come on. That's rediculous. What's this? A secret government order? What do you fear will happen if you publish it? If I am not mistaken, non of the OSMF board are lawyers. So it is not really in their realm of expertise to know what will happen legally. However, it is clear that one wrong move in these legal battles has the potential for serious consequences either for the individual or OSM(F) as a whole. So it makes absolute sense that the OSMF board first consults with legal counsel to be on the safe side! After all, once something is published on the internet you can't take it back if it turns out to be a mistake. That said, I very much hope that the letter can be published so that more people can judge its consequences and for OSM to possibly get some sympathy PR out of it, as it does seem ridiculous that they would try and forbid the use of the term geocoding (btw, is it just one spelling that is trademarked and e.g. geo-coding or geo coding ist fine?). But then if you look at the fact that e.g. Apple has seemingly managed to design-patent a device with round edges or that Deutsche Telekom tried to defend a trademark on the generic colour magenta (which apparently cost a 4 man start-up over 60.000 EUR in legal fees to defend against and if they had lost would have cost them in the range of a million EURs), it is clear that this area of law is illogical, insane and an absolute mine field! Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Recent-edits-in-the-wiki-Trademark-issue-tp5747591p5747775.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue
Jean-Marc Liotier wrote Is a cease desist letter all it takes for the OSMF to cave in to silly demands from random parties ? Can't we at least make a symbolic stand and let the aggressor escalate before we capitulate ? From a purely material point of view, that would be cheap publicity for the project. I thought that a free software project such as Openstreetmap (yes - geographic data is software too) would have, out of its principles, shown a stronger backbone under such disgusting pressure. I am disappointed. Do you really want the OSMF to gamble all of OSM's server infrastructure and other resources on a random legal battle about a possibly invalid trademark? Particularly without first a thorough due diligence of getting qualified legal advice from their counsel? These trademark issues seem have the potential to quickly escalate to $100.000s of dollars in cost. Either for legal fees or for damage fees if one looses. That is more or at least on the order of the entire assets of the OSMF. Is it really worth that risk to show a stronger backbone? Particularly as it isn't impossible to first comply and then if after thorough consideration or due to negotiations with the originator the matter is resolved reinstate those changes. So far I have seen no changes that actually negatively impact the project in any real way other than for ideological reasons. So complying in the short term doesn't seem to be an immediate problem. That said, I do hope the board will work intensely together with legal counsel and the rest of the community to find a way to dismiss these seemingly ridiculous claims (although I don't yet understand what exactly the issue is or what the CD actually covers). Given the genericness of the term geocode, I would assume that a number of larger companies might equally be effected who have much more resources than OSMF to defend against these claims. Or a another question is what is different about the use in OSM that they specifically targeted the OSMF? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Recent-edits-in-the-wiki-Trademark-issue-tp5747591p574.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark
Hi, may I throw a related, but slightly different concept, out there for discussion? I think some of the confusion between contributor mark and attribution mark is that they may be entirely different things. From the design I have seen so far it seems indeed more like a contributor mark than an attribution mark, but you are planning on using it as an attribution mark I'll give an example to try and clarify what I mean by contributor mark as opposed to attribution mark: Wikipedia have OpenStreetMap integration into articles. I.e. if you open a geocoded wikipedia article you can click in the top right corner on either the globe symbol in e.g. the English Wikipedia or the textual link Map in e.g. the German Wikipedia which opens an inline map into the article showing the place based on an OSM map. There were considerations on adding an edit link to the map, as it would a) be fitting to Wikipedia and b) help OSM gain new contributors as it can capitalize on the huge user base of Wikipedia. However, one concern with adding an edit link was to explain to the Wikipedia user why after clicking on the edit link they suddenly landed on this odd page called OpenStreetMap which wants a new user name and password from you. How does this relate to Wikipedia where they actually wanted to be? What is the concept behind OpenStreetMap? How and what can I edit? So the idea was to redirect first time map editors (not logged into OSM and don't have an OSM cookie) via an explanatory contributor page before sending them to the editor page. To Wikipedia users the concept of users editing the content is already familiar, but on many other third party sites that use OSM maps, the relation between the page they came from and OSM is likely even less clear to users. Therefor having people redirect through a explanatory page would be even more helpful. I think the contributor page as presented here could be a really nice basis for such a page. So instead of replacing attribution, the contributor mark is an additional component acting as a well recognizable edit this map button with the underlying explanatory page for new contributors. OSM could then encourage everyone who uses OSM maps to add this contributor mark / button to really try and capitalize the growing share of OSM users into new mappers by providing a more user friendly integration. To Website providers this would also be a benefit, as with including a few lines of simple html / javascript, they can help improve the maps they are using and identify them selves as real supporters to the OSM movement. In that case imho the size and design of the current proposed contributor mark is much more appropriate than as an attribution mark Thoughts? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/RFC-OSM-contributor-mark-tp5743962p5744950.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Frederik Ramm wrote Hi, On 13.01.2013 21:23, Gervase Markham wrote: Did we ever do z=19? To my knowledge, no. I am also reasonably sure z19 never existed. Osmarender only used to go to Z17 and so mapnik had one zoom level more than osmarender, but neither went further than z18. Frederik Ramm wrote Did we stop because it's a load more disk space, or something like that? If not, could we consider it? Given that very few areas are going to be even looked at at z19 I suspect the additional disk space used would not amount to much. Over time, the usage would creep up, but one could be fairly aggressive on deleting cached files for z19. Z19 tiles are most of the time reasonably easy to handle with rendering on the fly so a higher cache miss ratio would matter less. Of cause that would put extra pressure on the renderer, but during normal operations (i.e. if it is not e.g. rerendering everything) it seems to still have a fair amount of capacity left. Also the tile throttling mechanisms seem to work sufficiently well to prevent any crazy people from e.g. trying to download all of Europe at z19. So my guess would be that the current server has the resources to deal with z19 although it would cut into spare capacity for handling future growth. Frederik Ramm wrote But the style sheet we're currently using doesn't lend itself well to extension beyond z18, it would require some tweaking. Nothing big though. Imho, the current style sheet, if not perfect, at least works for z19 so I think one could just use it to begin with and then improve it through the normal stylesheet improvemet process. There are by now enough densely mapped areas, where a z19 level offers a real advantage. At z18 too much information gets dropped in the decluttering process. At the moment, when I want to e.g. check if something is already mapped in a densely mapped area, I need to switch into Potlatch where I can zoom to z19 (and beyond). However, if everyone does that, I suspect that would use up much more resources than offering a z19 rendered map. Therefore imho, offering z19 would be possible and a net benefit to OSM, but that is obviously for the server admin team to decide. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mapnik-at-zoom-19-tp5744338p5744364.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Simple improvement(s) to openstreetmap.org
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote Am 09.01.2013 um 15:18 schrieb Tobias Knerr lt; osm@ gt;: Of course that is an ideological point of view ... However, I would be wary to brush aside ideology completely... I don't mind if people use their favourite social networks to advocate OSM. However, a front page placement is more than that. +1, no endorsement of closed silo services on the main page. Imho this is a rather different kettle of fish, but given the current discussion on how far to support the closed silo of facebook and its ideology, I thought I'd mention it here never the less. I am hoping to extend the current login page to also support login with Facebook and login with your Microsoft account as can be tested on the following demonstration page ( http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/facebook-login/ ). This would also include a Facebook logo on the login page. Unlike the logon with google which has been an option on osm.org for a while now, other commonly used federated logins, like e.g. Facebook, have so far not been supported, as they don't use OpenID which is the appropriate open standard for this. Instead Facebook and MS accounts use oauth 2, which requires to register the page with them first and a small amount of custom code for each supported identity provider. Never-the-less, I don't think this is a real issue with regards to not supporting a closed silo. For one, the login with Facebook is obviously entirely voluntary and I don't see anything in the design of the login page that would suggest this is a requirement (or even the preferred method) for using OSM. Secondly, no (privacy) information is leaked to Facebook or any other third party unless you explicitly decide to use that identity provider (in which case it is imho your responsibility to trust it and consider the privacy implications). And finally I don't see it as OSMF endorsing a closed silo, as it equally supports the entirely open (and decentralised / user centric) OpenID protocol. Therefore, despite also having some ideological issues with closed social networks like Facebook, I don't want to neglect the reality of 900 million Facebook accounts and the possibility to make life easier for OSM mappers / users if they so choose. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Simple-improvement-s-to-openstreetmap-org-tp5743501p5743655.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Jeff Meyer wrote On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski lt; emacsen@ gt; wrote: What is stopping these this from happening without a committee? Probably nothing. Although a committee might not strictly be necessary, it can give an additional boost of motivation and sense of responsibility to get through times when the work is necessary but less rewarding. It can also make things easier (better defined) for people with data to approach the committee rather than random individuals. But really, from the OSMF committees I have worked on, they are mostly just a bunch of people that would be doing things anyway now meet regularly on irc instead of on an random and adhoc basis. So it really doesn't make much of a difference and so if it helps with motivation, one might as well. Overall, I think it is a great idea. It seems clear that in general the US community is in favor and is (and has been) going down the direction of large scale imports. As imports are technically challenging and difficult, it is great to see if technically capable people deeply routed in the community take charge of the import process to ensure that they are done to the highest technical standard, instead of just standing on the sidelines and complaining that imports are bad and leaving the imports to people who are less familiar with the community standards and tools doing it anyway. Which leads to the poor execution of imports we have unfortunately seen so often in the past. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Imports-and-Mass-Edits-in-the-US-tp5740698p5740730.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-de] Wieder einmal Fläche die nicht gerendert wird
Kann es an Bug #4525 ( https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4525 ) in osm2pgsql liegen? Wenn ein Weg Teil eines Multipolygons war und dann die Multipolygon Relation geloescht wird, nicht aber der einzelne Weg, dann verhaspelt sich osm2pgsql. Beim loeschen einer Relation, geht osm2pgsql nicht durch alle Member ways um zu schauen ob sie nun eigenstaendig in die Polygon tabelle aufgenommen werden muessen. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wieder-einmal-Flache-die-nicht-gerendert-wird-tp5732660p5732724.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OpenStreetBugs-Einbau in Hauptseite
Martin Czarkowski wrote Wieso bindet man nicht gleich den openstreetbugs / schokokeks Layer auf die Hauptseite ein? Gibt es da etwas mit der Lizenz, oder habe ich was verpasst? Wenn schon etwas ähnliches erfunden wurde, wieso von neu anfangen? Die Antwort ist wohl zweigeteilt: 1) Server-seitig, also die eigentliche Bug / Note Datenbank, liegt das daran das man bei der Hauptfunktionalitaet von OSM.org eignetlich lieber unter eigener (OMSF) Kontrolle hat, damit nicht eines tages die Funktionalitaet weg bricht wenn der Drittanbieter den Dienst einstellen will / muss. Auch wenn OSB bislang sehr stabil und zuverlaessig funktioniert hat, ist das einfach eine gewisse Absicherung. Ausserdem kann man wie schon geschrieben die Sache dann besser in die restliche Seite integrieren. So bekommt man z.B. email Benachrichtigungen wenn jemand ein Kommentar zu einem seiner Notes abgibt (so fern man als OSM user eingeloggt ist). Weiterhin kann man seine eigenen Notes und die die man kommentiert hat aufgelistet bekommen. (z.b. http://notes.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/user/apmon-test/notes ). Spaeter kann man dann vielleicht auch noch weitere Funktionen integrieren. 2) Client-seitig (also die JavaScript Version): Die urspruengliche Version hat die JavaScript funktionen von OSB verwendet, aber sie haben einfach Code-Stilistisch nicht so gut zum restlichen Code gepasst, sodass es schwieriger war Sachen zu finden. Insofern hat TomH das dann einfach angepasst und vereinfacht damit es in Zunkunft leichter ist neue Features und Verbesserungen einzubauen. Wie genau die zukuenftige Interaktion zwischen OSB auf Schokokeks und auf osm.org laueft ist noch nicht entschieden. Eine Moeglichkeit waere die derzeitige OSB datenbank in osm.org zu importieren und dann die Schokokeks URL als Proxy auf osm.org verwenden. Dann muesste die Version auf osm.org allerdings kompatibel bleiben. Insbesondere waere es dann nicht moeglich (oder schwieriger) vorrauszusetzen das man ein OSM account hat um ein Bug zu bearbeiten, was moeglicherweise noetig ist um Vandalismus und Spam entgegen zu wirken. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OpenStreetBugs-Einbau-in-Hauptseite-tp5730914p5731069.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OpenStreetBugs-Einbau in Hauptseite
malenki wrote Kai Krueger schrieb: Wie genau die zukuenftige Interaktion zwischen OSB auf Schokokeks und auf osm.org laueft ist noch nicht entschieden. Mich persönlich würde interessieren, wie man die OSM-Bugs in JOSM oder anderen Editoren komfortabel bearbeiten kann. Prinzipiell genauso wie jetz auch. Die neue Implementation hat eine sehr aehnliche API [1] wie die Alte. Moeglicherweise sogar fuer Kompatibilitaetsgruenden die Gleiche. Insofern muss man lediglich die URL(s) im OSB plug-in etwas aendern. Insofern sollte es moeglich sein alle externen Editoren oder Seiten recht schnell an die OSB implementation auf osm.org anzupassen. Kai [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetBugs/API_0.6Diese Seite ist noch nicht ganz korrekt und ich muss noch ein paar Aktualisierungen durchfuehren. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OpenStreetBugs-Einbau-in-Hauptseite-tp5730914p5731095.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OpenStreetBugs-Einbau in Hauptseite
Frederik Ramm wrote Vorausgesetzt, wir kriegen bei OSM ein gutes User Interface hin, wuerde ich sagen, Schokokeks kann dann ersatzlos gestrichen werden. Es gibt inzwischen einige Programme und Editoren die die Schokokeks OSB seite verwenden. Ein einfaches abschalten halte ich in der Hinsicht also nicht fuer so sinnvoll. Eine gewisse Uebergangsregelung waere imho also auf jedenfall noetig. Ein proxy um die Anfragen einfach umzuleiten halte ich dabei (wenn technisch machbar) am sinnvollsten. Aber wie gesagt ich weis nicht ob es weder technisch moeglich ist (beide Implementationen ausreichend kompatibel), oder politisch gewollt ist ein import der alten Daten vorzunehemen. Frederik Ramm wrote Dann muesste die Version auf osm.org allerdings kompatibel bleiben. Insbesondere waere es dann nicht moeglich (oder schwieriger) vorrauszusetzen das man ein OSM account hat um ein Bug zu bearbeiten, was moeglicherweise noetig ist um Vandalismus und Spam entgegen zu wirken. Ich bin eigentlich dagegen, dass man einen Account haben muss - gerade das war doch immer der Vorteil von OSB, dass man ohne langes Anmelden schnell was reporten konnte. Wenn es so waere, dass man auf der OSM-Seite einen Account braucht, dann muessten wir das alte OSB weiter behalten, fuer die, die sich nicht anmelden wollen. Das waere irgendwie ein Rueckschritt - dann verteilen sich Meldungen kuenftig auf zwei Plattformen. Ich waere eigentlich auch eher dagegen, das man verlangt sich einzuloggen. Und im Moment ist es auch moeglich als NoName Notes zu erstellen, zu schliessen und zu kommentieren. Andererseits weis ich nicht ob man eine voellig ungeschuetzte API auf einer high-profile site wie osm.org betreiben kann ohne von Spam ueberschuettet zu werden. Insofern kann es sein das eine niedrige Huerde wie das registrieren noetig wird, sollte keine bessere Loesung gefunden werden. Unter anderem desshalb versuche ich im Moment aber auch die Erstellung eines Accounts zu erleichtern. Abgesehen von Google, Yahoo und OpenID die man bereits jetzt verwenden kann, bastele ich daran das man sich auch mit einem Facebook oder Windows live account in OSM.org einloggen kann. (Damit waeren dann die groessten identity provider abgedeckt). Desweiteren wuerde ich gerne den extra Schritt der email Bestaetigung eines neuen Accounts ueberspringen wenn man sich ueber Google, Yahoo oder Facebook anmeldet. Dann kann man sich mit insgesammt 4 clicks einen account erstellen und ist sofort angemeldet. Das ist zwar immer noch mehr Aufwand als wenn man anonym posten kann, aber hoffentlich eine verhaeltnissmaessig kleine Barriaere, sollte es noetig werden. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OpenStreetBugs-Einbau-in-Hauptseite-tp5730914p5731106.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OpenStreetBugs-Einbau in Hauptseite
Andreas Labres wrote (sprich auch die Funktionalität wie RSS-Feed übernehmen!) RSS-Feed existiert bereits. Z.B. http://notes.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes.rss?l=0r=1b=0t=1 fuer ein RSS feed in der bbox (0.0|0.0 1.0|1.0) -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OpenStreetBugs-Einbau-in-Hauptseite-tp5730914p5731107.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Image of the week?!
Sven Geggus wrote Sehe ich das richtig, dass Apple da OSM Daten mit proprietären Daten mischt? Kommt darauf an wie man Daten mischt definiert. Ich habe kein iOS Geraet und kann damit nichts direkt dazu sagen, aber bislang sind die Berichte aus Islamabad die einzigen glaubhaften Berichte das Apple ueberhaupt OSM verwendet die ich gesehen habe. Insofern schaetze ich mal das Apple in den meisten Laendern, insbesonder in den USA und Europa TeleAtlas Daten verwendet und nur in ein paar Regionen, wie z.B. Pakistan in denen sie sonst an keine (guenstigen) Daten gekommen sind OSM verwenden. Das wuerde dann (aller voraussicht nach) unter collective database und nicht derivative database fallen und somit nicht die share-a-like aktivieren. Mapquest.com (nicht die open Version) macht das im uebrigen genauso. Die Daten fuer Deutschland stammen dort von Navteq. Die Daten fuer z.B. Zypern, Pakistan oder Japan hingegen von OSM. Teilweise ist es auch von zoom stufe zu zoom stufe verschieden. In manchen Gebieten sind die low zoom tiles von OSM gerendert und die high zoom tiles von Navteq. Auch die Attributierung duerfte diesmal korrekt sein den such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit ist erfuellt, da es genauso attributiert wird wie alle anderen Daten lieferanten. Imho das groessere Aergerniss waere wenn Apple wieder 2 Jahre alte OSM Daten verwenden wuerden. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Image-of-the-week-tp5727189p5727223.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Import guidelines OSMF/DWG governance
Hello, I don't know anything about the particular import that originated this question, and so I don't know if the following arguments specifically apply, but I do want to comment on the issue of requiring a separate account for imports. IMHO, the issue is about licensing. The contributor terms that every account has signed states You hereby grant to OSMF a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable licence to do any act that is restricted by copyright, database right or any related right over anything within the Contents. This is basically the equivalent of PD and indeed would allow OSMF to in future license the OSM data under a PD-equivalent license (subject to well defined democratic voting procedure described in clause 3 in the CT) If this applied to imported data as well, this would have excluded all non PD imports completely, which a lot of people found unacceptable. My understand is that therefor in clause 1 of the CT the following was added You are indicating that, as far as You know, You have the right to authorize OSMF to use and distribute those Contents under our current licence terms. I.e. you are only required to check licensing compatibility to the current license (now ODbL) and not to the stricter PD requirement. My understanding is that this was interpreted as that all original content of an account falls under the PD licensing to OSMF, given the 'You hereby grant' part, but non-original content (i.e. imports) retain their original licensing and can be imported never-the-less as long as it is compatible with the current license (but might need to be removed in future should the license ever change again). So there are now data in the db with different licenses, but currently no way to distinguish between the two conditions and in the later case what license they are actually under. Requiring a separate account for original content for which OSMF has a PD-equivalent license and imported data for which the license OSMF has is not PD seems like the minimum prudent thing to do. I would go further and actually separate these things out in the CT. I.e. original content accounts (the normal mapper account) signs a different CT than import accounts. The import account CT then spells out the requirements for how to correctly do an import more clearly. Particularly that the exact license agreement of the data under which OSM(F) can use the data now and in future is correctly documented and recorded, e.g. as reference in case there are any legal disputes in future. The DWG would then have a clear mandate to block imports that don't adhere to the then well specified import guidelines Overall compared to all the effort that has to go into a prudent import, creating a new account is minimal effort. So this requirement is hardly unreasonable. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Import-guidelines-OSMF-DWG-governance-tp5725810p5725945.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
Hello everyone, Inspired by the US 250 cities routing grid[1] used in the original TIGER cleanup in 2009, I have now created a similar routing grid for the USA and Australia. Australia: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/aus_routing_grid.html USA: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html It takes the top cities of the country and calculates the routing distances between them and displays the result in a routing grid. It allows to check the top tear inter city road network. Unusually long routes are likely caused by broken data and indicates where things need fixing. In the grid, all routes that are more than 5% longer or slower than expected* are show in red, otherwise they are considered as superficially OK. The reference values are in brackets. If you click on the link, you will be sent to the detailed routing information. Unfortunately the situation, particularly in Australia, is pretty bad. In Australlia currently non of the routes between the top ten cities pass this criterion and in fact most of the routes can't be calculated at all any more due to disconnectedness of the road network. So for all those who are finished remapping their own area and are looking to help with a bit of armchair mapping, trying to get more of these routes green could be a good idea for arm chair mappers. Let's see how quickly we can get all of them green! The routing information is calculated using the Open Source Routing Machine ( http://map.project-osrm.org/ ) and if I am not mistaken, updates its data once a day. I will equally try and recreate those grids on a daily basis to help track progress on the remapping. Happy remapping, Kai * The time and distance that is expected is currently determined using google's directions API. Although not perfect by any means, it is probably the most reliable source for now as a reference. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
On 07/21/2012 01:05 PM, Simone Cortesi wrote: Yes please, I would like to do the same too... -S On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is wrote: I want to make a similar routing table file for my country. Any chance of giving us instructions on how to generate such routing grids of our own? - Svavar Kjarrval I have now pushed the code I used to generate those tables to github. ( https://github.com/apmon/RoutingGrid ) It is a little java program that takes in a list of coordinates and city names and generates the html file for the routing grid. You can easily run it on your own list of coordinates / cities. Dennis, who is responsible for the OSRM server, was OK with me running the code against his server, and I suspect he wouldn't mind if others do the same. It uses Google's directions API as a reference, so it is subject to their terms. Currently they seem to allow 2500 requests per day, which would correspond to a maximum sized grid of 50 cities. It can cache the results from Google in a reference list, so you only need to query google once per city list. Kai On 21/07/12 18:32, Kai Krueger wrote: Hello everyone, Inspired by the US 250 cities routing grid[1] used in the original TIGER cleanup in 2009, I have now created a similar routing grid for the USA and Australia. Australia: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/aus_routing_grid.html USA: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html It takes the top cities of the country and calculates the routing distances between them and displays the result in a routing grid. It allows to check the top tear inter city road network. Unusually long routes are likely caused by broken data and indicates where things need fixing. In the grid, all routes that are more than 5% longer or slower than expected* are show in red, otherwise they are considered as superficially OK. The reference values are in brackets. If you click on the link, you will be sent to the detailed routing information. Unfortunately the situation, particularly in Australia, is pretty bad. In Australlia currently non of the routes between the top ten cities pass this criterion and in fact most of the routes can't be calculated at all any more due to disconnectedness of the road network. So for all those who are finished remapping their own area and are looking to help with a bit of armchair mapping, trying to get more of these routes green could be a good idea for arm chair mappers. Let's see how quickly we can get all of them green! The routing information is calculated using the Open Source Routing Machine ( http://map.project-osrm.org/ ) and if I am not mistaken, updates its data once a day. I will equally try and recreate those grids on a daily basis to help track progress on the remapping. Happy remapping, Kai * The time and distance that is expected is currently determined using google's directions API. Although not perfect by any means, it is probably the most reliable source for now as a reference. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
On 07/21/2012 04:56 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote: On 21/07/12 21:21, Kai Krueger wrote: On 07/21/2012 01:05 PM, Simone Cortesi wrote: Yes please, I would like to do the same too... -S On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is wrote: I want to make a similar routing table file for my country. Any chance of giving us instructions on how to generate such routing grids of our own? - Svavar Kjarrval I have now pushed the code I used to generate those tables to github. ( https://github.com/apmon/RoutingGrid ) It is a little java program that takes in a list of coordinates and city names and generates the html file for the routing grid. You can easily run it on your own list of coordinates / cities. Dennis, who is responsible for the OSRM server, was OK with me running the code against his server, and I suspect he wouldn't mind if others do the same. It uses Google's directions API as a reference, so it is subject to their terms. Currently they seem to allow 2500 requests per day, which would correspond to a maximum sized grid of 50 cities. It can cache the results from Google in a reference list, so you only need to query google once per city list. Kai Thanks a lot! I had an idea of a larger list of co-ordinates and could use this code to make a databased version. I'd probably have to host my own OSRM instance so I wouldn't bombard the main one with so many queries in a short time interval. OSRM really is amazingly fast (assuming you have a server with sufficient ram to convert the data into a routing db in the first place), so I don't see too much issue in principle in significantly expanding the routing grid. Calculating a route from New York to Los Angeles takes 500ms and that includes network round trip time across the Atlantic (ping time to the server from here is 150 ms). Depending on how far you want to expand it, you might even still be able to use the current instance, although you would have to ask Dennis about that. If there is interest, I will try and expand the routing grid my self over the next couple of days, either to new countries or to more cities in a country. With the current code, the bigger short term issue is that it uses Google as a reference source and its limited allowance. However, once the routing problems are fixed again in OSM, there is no reason to not use a known good snapshot of OSM data as a reference in future and use it in quality assurance to check for any new broken routes. You could also use a snapshot from before the bot ran if you have access to it. Overall, this is really only a very small script that I hacked together in a couple of hours yesterday of which most of the time was spend in getting the coordinates for the cities list. So if you are planning to make too many changes, you might be better of writing it from scratch. It would be a kind of a quality assurance checker where I'd not only check links between cities/towns, but also links between some of the addresses inside them. Maybe add important POIs in the country as well. I really want the map to be of superior quality. You would likely need to go about it a bit different than to display routes in a grid (so the current code probably isn't a great basis), but the idea of automated quality control by generating a large set of routes between cities/towns/POIs has been floating around for quite a while. It is one of the reasons why there is still a debate about getting OSMF to operate a routing server itself to support these kind of QA checks. Personally, however, I suspect that an automated system will only every be able to check a fraction of the most prominent (and important) routes / roads and it will be more important to expose as many mappers as possible to the routing interface for them to try their own local routes for which they know the optimal solution. Kai - Svavar Kjarrval On 21/07/12 18:32, Kai Krueger wrote: Hello everyone, Inspired by the US 250 cities routing grid[1] used in the original TIGER cleanup in 2009, I have now created a similar routing grid for the USA and Australia. Australia: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/aus_routing_grid.html USA: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html It takes the top cities of the country and calculates the routing distances between them and displays the result in a routing grid. It allows to check the top tear inter city road network. Unusually long routes are likely caused by broken data and indicates where things need fixing. In the grid, all routes that are more than 5% longer or slower than expected* are show in red, otherwise they are considered as superficially OK. The reference values are in brackets. If you click on the link, you will be sent to the detailed routing information. Unfortunately the situation, particularly in Australia, is pretty bad. In Australlia currently non of the routes between the top ten cities pass
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
Paul Norman wrote From: Toby Murray [mailto:toby.murray@] Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that could be used to help identify broken interstates and other major ways, as the tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely deleted will take time to identify. There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to help people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone know the technical details or if it would be practical to bring back? It is documented here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid I think it's practical, I've given some thought to doing this. Maybe query one of the routing services to build it. OK, I have had a first stab at it. http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html It is only 25 cities so far, but if it turns out to be useful it can easily be extended to more cities. The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't do this at all. Anyone have some good ideas for this? The routing information is obtained from Open Source Routing Machine, which is amazingly fast at calculating all of these long distance routes. OSRM updates its data daily, so I think the routing data is based on OSM data from yesterday. I.e. post redaction. If there is interest I could regenerate this routing grid daily too. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Fwd-Re-Post-bot-cleanup-tp5717310p5717586.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
Martijn van Exel-3 wrote The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't do this at all. Anyone have some good ideas for this? The 'easiest' way I see is to compare those results with the same calculation based on data from a week or a month old. Wherever the difference in time / distance is more than a certain threshold, say 5 or 10%, the route needs to be looked at. OK, I have done something similar now, just that I used google calculated routes as a reference. Those routes that are more than 5% longer either in distance or time are flagged as red, others are green. This isn't perfect, but at least it gives a good first indication of which routes are broken and hopefully as people continue fixing the interstate system more and more routes will turn green. The updated version is at the same URL as before ( http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html ) Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Fwd-Re-Post-bot-cleanup-tp5717310p5717675.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Redaction bot is heading our way!
Chris Lawrence-2 wrote On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Nathan Edgars II lt;neroute2@gt; wrote: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.9958lon=-81.1074zoom=13layers=M I've fixed up I-20 between the Columbia River and US 21; looks like the damage goes both west and east from there at least to US 1 (west) and I-77 (east) but I've got other things to do tonight so I can't fix it all. I also started fixing the I-20 at the intersection to I-77, as the Interstate system around Columbia, South Carolina is a total mess. However, the I-77 north wards had so many issues, that I couldn't fix them all in a single pass. I decided to do some initial fixup along the I-77, leaving a number of intersections and the route relation broken. The question is, is it better to fix up a small bit thoroughly, or try and get as much of the interstate at least vaguely right as soon as possible, and leave the rest to a second pass? Unfortunately, I think I also ran into an editing conflict with you, as when I wanted to upload my changes, potlatch complained about version miss match on the I-20 relation. As I didn't know how to fix the conflict, I lost about 15 minutes worth of work trying to clean up the I-20 / I-77 intersection. So another question is, what is the best way to coordinate the general fixing of the interstate system to try and minimize editing conflicts? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Redaction-bot-is-heading-our-way-tp5717069p5717161.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] WIWOSM is now activated at all Wikipedia languages
Kolossos wrote I activate now WIWOSM[1] on all language versions of Wikipedia that support the OSM-Gadget[2]. WIWOSM is also active in the WikiMiniAtlas, which is the map that shows if you click on the little globe icon in e.g. the English Wikipedia. WIWOSM is a really neat project to show the extents and shapes on the map of the features described in the wikipedia arctivle, and not just a single point pin. Particularly for extended objects like rivers or routes this can be very useful. The WikiMiniAtlas version even allows for size comparisons, by allowing you to move around the shape of an object as an overlay to anywhere in the world. e.g. to compare California to the UK or London to Berlin So perhaps one of the projects of the week / month could be to wikify all of the major rivers, regions and any other objects that would be useful to highlight on the Wikipedia maps. It could even be a joint project between wikipedia editors and osm mappers. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/WIWOSM-is-now-activated-at-all-Wikipedia-languages-tp5716970p5716978.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Hack-Weekend Karlsruhe und Administrative Grenzen / Hierarchien weltweit
Frederik Ramm wrote Was da fehlt, ist irgendein automatisches Kontrollsystem, das all diese Grenzen prueft und z.B. auf Basis einer naechtlichen Auswertungen Reports generiert Etwas aehnliches erzielt das mapquest open Broken polygon tool [1] das auf Basis von Nominatim funktioniert. Es listet Polygone die nicht korrekt sind (z.B. self-intersecting) oder bei denen sich die Flaeche drastisch geaendert hat, was meist auf einen Fehler hindeutet. Da administrative Grenzen natuerlich sehr wichtig fuer Nominatim ist, gibt es glaube ich auch eine Einstellung um nur administrative Polygone anzuzeigen. Leider scheinen die Klassifikation nicht immer zuverlaessig zu funktionieren und auch ein paar andere Dinge sind nicht gerade ideal. Z.B. scheint es nur Aenderungen zu zeigen und nicht den gesammt Stand der Probleme. Aber moeglicherweise koennte es als Basis fuer eine verbesserte Version verwendet werden, denn ich denke es hat das Potential sehr nuetzlich zu sein. Insofern waere es super wenn jemand das broken polygon tool auf Vorderman bringen koennte. Kai [1] http://open.mapquestapi.com/brokenpoly/ -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Hack-Weekend-Karlsruhe-und-Administrative-Grenzen-Hierarchien-weltweit-tp5709504p5709627.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM Toolchain Mapnik2 in einfach
oliverGMX wrote Hat auch wunderbar funktioniert, allerdings bekomme ich wohl nur eine Mapnik 0.7 Installation. So wie ich verstanden habe, basiert der kürzlich aufgefrischte German Style nun auf Mapnik 2 und funktioniert nicht mit meiner Installation. Das im howto genutzte Repository von Kai Krüger scheint nur Mapnik 0.7 zu installieren. Die Pakete in meinem PPA versuchen so weit wie moeglich auf den standard Packeten im Ubuntu repository zu setzen und nur das zu installieren was nicht bereits in Ubuntu vorhanden ist. Bis Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric) war nur Mapnik0.7 als Packet im repository vorhanden. In Ubuntu 12.04LTS (das naechste Woche erscheint) ist nun Mapnik 2.0 enhalten. Insofern verwenden dann die mod_tile / renderd packages fuer 12.04 auch Mapnik 2.0. Ansonsten, muss man mapnik2 installieren und dann renderd selbst neu compilieren. Das sollte jedoch auch nicht allzu schwierig sein. P.S. Falls jemand von oneiric auf precise updated und die packeges von meinem ppa installiert hatte, lasst mich bitte wissen ob es Probleme mit dem update gab. Ein Fehler mit dem coastline download ist mir gerade selbst aufgefallen den ich noch korrigieren muss. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Stra-enbegleitende-Radwege-tp5643770p5656487.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gebäude nicht gerendert - machmal steht man im Wald
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote evtl. gab es Probleme auf dem Server, so dass der nun denkt, da wäre alles auf aktuellem Stand? Das Problem scheint nicht an der rendering Seite zu liegen. Zumindestens auf dem toolserver fehlt das Gebaeude bereits in der rendering db. Weder als polygon noch als line ist z.B. der Weg 127161742 in der mapnik DB enthalten. Insofern sieht es so aus als haette moeglicherweise osm2pgsql Probleme mit der Geometrie des Wegs und konnte somit daraus kein Polygon erzeugen? Warum genau, weiss ich allerdings noch nicht. Passiert das gleiche auf dem tile-server von openstreetmap.de? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Gebaude-nicht-gerendert-machmal-steht-man-im-Wald-tp5630183p5630352.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[OSM-legal-talk] Creative-Commons 4.0 (first draft)
Hi, I have just seen that Creative-Commons has released a first draft of their new 4.0 license suit and thought it might be of interest to others on this list. ( http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/32157 ) The draft for 4.0 now explicitly licenses database rights and addresses licensing of databases. However, it does not extend restrictions through contract where copyright and database rights do not restrict usage in the first place. It also does not have the concept of produced works. The new draft furthermore addresses attribution in massive collaboration projects more flexibly than previous licenses by not having to attribute all authors if the project wishes so. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Creative-Commons-4-0-first-draft-tp5614244p5614244.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] No Data overlay on OpenStreetmap.org
andrzej zaborowski wrote There's a problem though with re-opening the data pane once it's been closed. I have to reload the website to reopen it every time That should be fixed already. Are you still seeing this? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/No-Data-overlay-on-OpenStreetmap-org-tp5610928p5612691.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Portal-Anmeldung unmöglich, keine Fehlermelldung
Hartmut Holzgraefe-3 wrote Im Prinzip müsste es also noch möglich sein sich anzumelden aber alle Aktionen die Daten verändern wären unmöglich (Daten hochladen, Nachrichten verschicken, oder eben auch den Zustimmungsstatus ändern). Anmelden geht nun wieder (frueher waren auch die Sessions in der DB gespeichert, sodas man sich ohne Schreibzugriff auf die DB nicht anmelden konnte. Inzwischen sind sie jedoch separat in memcached), nutzen tut einem das aber wenig, da fast alle Aktionen fuer die man sich anmelden muss man Scrheibzugriff auf die DB braucht. Der Umzug ist jedoch noch im vollen Gange, insofern bleibt der Schreibzugriff noch ein Weilchen de-aktiviert. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Portal-Anmeldung-unmoglich-keine-Fehlermelldung-tp5611742p5613301.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Lizenswechsel und was passiert mit den Daten von mir?
assetburned wrote wo kann ich das den nun überprüfen? haufenweise seiten zum remappen, aber ich find nix zum sind meine daten sicher? http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/assetburned (bzw wie auch immer Dein OSM username heist) sagt aus ob Du der neuen Lizenz zugestimmt hast. http://cleanmap.poole.ch/ bzw http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=wtfe kann Dir sagen ob Deine Daten durch andere nicht-zustimmer gefaehrdet sind. assetburned wrote wo kann ich mein behaltet meine daten unter der neuen lizens, abgeben? http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/terms -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Lizenswechsel-und-was-passiert-mit-den-Daten-von-mir-tp5599315p5599489.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] GSOC2012 Video Based Speed Limit Detector
Hi, Graham Jones-2 wrote Hi Emanuela, ... - I think the project idea is about developing a plugin for the JOSM editor? If so it would be good to have a look at that and learn to use it, then have a look at the code and some example plugins to see how they work - you should find lots of information on the OSM wiki. Hope that helps. Please feel free to ask more questions as you develop your proposal. I would ask the person who proposed the idea to reply here with a bit more information please, as this is not something I know anything about! I suggested the project on the wiki, and I would also be happy to mentor this project should a proposal for it be accepted. (Last year OSM only had 3 slots and quite a number of students applied and so it is difficult to say which ones will get accepted this year). I'd like to give a bit more background as to the motivation for suggesting this project and what might be involved in doing it. However, these are just suggestions and if you have different ideas that would also be great, as long as you can justify why they would be useful to OSM. In fact, personally, I would strongly encourage students to enhance the proposals with some of their own ideas. For one, those are then more likely to interest the student and ensure that they do a good job with the project, and secondly it demonstrates that the student has looked into the project and has a thorough enough understanding of the project to contribute ideas and to some degree work independently. In the early days of OSM (and to a good degree still today), people went out and about specifically to map. They for example walk, cycled, drove along routes and stopped every few meters to take pictures of street signs, shops or house numbers or write down notes about what is on the roads, which they can then easily process back home into detailed maps for OpenStreetMap. This is really great for the project and often a lot of fun for the mapper, but also rather time consuming and perhaps not everyones idea of an ideal hobby. It also becomes less fun if you work in densely mapped areas and are only verifying data rather than contributing new data. Therefore to scale up mapping to larger numbers it is important to try and incorporate more mapping into every day, rather than special mapping trips. Perhaps two of the most relevant techniques for this are audio and video mapping[2]. In the case of audio mapping one would record audio notes about various things to map while traveling. Videomapping is even easier, as one would simply videotape (e.g. with a helmet mount camera, or a web cam on the car dashboard) a trip and one doesn't need to do anything at the time. However, post processing this later on into map data can be rather tiresome and boring, as one has to sift through possibly hours of traffic recordings to filter out the interesting bits. This is where the proposal for the video based speed limit detector comes in. The idea is to automate as much as possible this sifting through the video recording and make the life for the mapper as easy as possible to extract relevant information. In its simplest form, the project would be to go through a video recording image by image and detect if there is an interesting street sign in the video. If there is, it would pull that image out, correlate it with a GPS track that was recorded simultaneously and present those images as photos in JOSM to be used in the standard photo based mapping in JOSM. To make the work-flow as simple as possible for mappers, the system should be well integrated into an editor like JOSM. It looks like you might be able to base your work off of the video mapping plugin for JOSM [3]. Once this minimal goal is achieved, there are nearly a limitless number of extensions one can play and experiment with to improve the usefulness to mappers. One thing would be to not only detect an interesting street sign like a speed limit in a picture, but also to recognize which sign it is and then allow the mapper to automatically apply the correct tagging for the sign. Another idea would be to try and use the video stream, the speed of travel and the perspective increase as the sign comes nearer to estimate a more exact location of the street sign, to get the beginning of e.g. a speed limit as accurate as possible. One can also spend a lot of time trying to get the detection and recognition algorithms as robust as possible, so that they can work in varying lighting conditions or also with cheap web cams. Although the suggestion mentions speed limits, one could use other signs as well. However, speed limit signs (at least the european ones) should be comparatively easy, as they are designed to be very obvious with very high contrast. Furthermore, they are fairly important to routing and so far have been less common to tag in openstreetmap. As such missing speed limits is one of the most common bug reports people report [1] with using OSM in a
Re: [Talk-de] WIWOSM-Projekt ist live
Christian Müller wrote Am 21.03.2012 21:05, schrieb ThomasB: Einfach mal so, ohne jemand etwas zu sagen das Tagging Schema bei OSM zu ändern, geht nicht. +1. Dennoch, das bedeutet auch, dass man sich mit Vorschlägen auf der Liste im Detail befasst. Ich sehe da eine gewisse Müdigkeit. Also die Variante wurde unter Anderem bereits im Januar 2010 auf talk-de diskutiert z.B. ( http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2010-January/062176.html ) und auch im wiki Eintrag zu dem Wikipedia key wurde diese bereits im Januar 2010 eingetragen. Und wenn ich mich nicht falsch erinnere war damals der Konsens des taggings wie es in WIWOSM verwendet wird. Die Aenderung ist also weder neu, noch wurde sie nicht auf den Listen diskutiert. Obendrein macht sie auch noch Sinn. Ich habe mir jetzt nicht die ganze Versionsgeschichte des wiki Artikels durchgelesen um zu sehen wann die Variante verloren gegangen ist, aber neu ist sie wie gesagt nicht. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/WIWOSM-Projekt-ist-live-tp5583315p5584408.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Lightning fast car routing built on OpenStreetMap data, with draggable routes
Lester Caine wrote I must say I'm seeing the same strange effects on routing in the UK. Although mapquest is a little slower, it does at least pick up the faster roads rather than routes that are perhaps 0.5km shorter but using roads with many roundabouts rather than the adjacent motorways or dual carriageways with none. Despite using the same data, the various routers based on OpenStreetMap do sometimes seem to generate rather different routes. Either, because they assume different default speed profiles for various OSM highway classes, because they add different heuristic penalties (such as for traffic lights or corners), or because they implement different sub sets of OSM taggings. Comparing the various routers and where they differ will hopefully help improve those defaults, as well as identify areas, where the data needs to be enriched so that the routers have an easier job on selecting the best route. In case people are interested, to make this comparison easier http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/routing/ allows you in a single interface to select which of the 4 main OSM routing engines one wants to use (OSRM, MapQuest Open, CloudMade and Gosmore) and allows to quickly switch between them to compare. One should remember, however, that they all use data extracts from different times. While OSRM and MapQuest should be pretty up to date, I am not sure how often CloudMade or Gosmore update. Unfortunately, given that the dev server, through which the results get proxied, can be rather slow, one can't really appreciate the wonderful speed of OSRM. Kai P.S. It is really great to see all those improvements flowing into OSRM! It will hopefully help make OSM data ever more routable. Thanks and congratulations to Dennis and everyone else who might have been involved! -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Lightning-fast-car-routing-built-on-OpenStreetMap-data-with-draggable-routes-tp5572804p5574723.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Nice problem to have
Kai Krueger wrote This imho shows that the publicity of Apple and Foursquare using OSM directly resulted in new mappers for OSM. Although it isn't the complete record, that was around the 13th of September 2009 (anyone know if there was a special occasion arount that time?), it is the second highest number yet. Furthermore, with the news so fresh, perhaps we will still beat the record. Well, to answer my own question if we can beat the record of most new mappers in a week, it is a resounding yes. This week (beginning 8th of March) saw nearly 3300 new mappers, clearly beating the old record! Richard Fairhurst pointed out that the old record was set in the week Monopoly City Streets launched (a large scale internet game using OpenStreetMap data), so again due to a popular user of OpenStreetMap. So the more large sites use OSM, the faster the mapping community grows and therefore it is imho import for OSM and its community to care about its data consumers as it benefits from them even if they don't give back. Kai P.S. I have posted the daily statistics since the beginning of the year at http://pastebin.com/rHt9MT3f -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Nice-problem-to-have-tp5549225p5570144.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about Incentives to contribute to OSM
Dominik Wilmsen wrote We would like to invite you to participate in a survey on motivations and obstacles to contribute geographic information I think you are missing one of the most important motivations and reasons to contribute to OpenStreetMap. I.e. that you are using a software or gadget based on OpenStreetMap and you want to improve your usage of this software and not because you care about OSM. E.g. I came across OpenStreetMap because I was looking for an offline map application for my old feature phone. GpsMid was the only app that I could find that even came close to what I needed. It uses OpenStreetMap. The data of London was decent but not perfect back then and so in order to improve my own usage of GpsMid, I had to improve OpenStreetMap data. I have stuck with the project ever since. Similarly, the biggest spike ever of weekly first time mappers was in mid September 2009, the week in which Monopoly City Streets was launched. I.e. a lot of people who had never heard of OpenStreetMap wanted to play Monopoly City Streets and found that they couldn't buy their own street in the game. They were then told (even though probably not true as Monopoly City Streets didn't incorporate diffs) that if they wanted to buy their street, they had to add the road to OpenStreetMap first as that is what Monopoly City Streets was based on. So a lot of people did. Many of them might not have really cared for OpenStreetMap as such, just for their application, i.e. the game they were playing. Likewise I would guess with things like Sat-Nav apps such as Skobbler or Mapfactor Free, or with FourSquare and Apple iPhoto users. I think question 7 and possibly 15 (or the survey in general) doesn't really cover this important situation well. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Survey-about-Incentives-to-contribute-to-OSM-tp5564595p5565324.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM software
Toby Murray-2 wrote A slightly better link might be: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rails_port This is what drives the core of OSM. Don't know that you have to be overly good at rails development to set it up but it is certainly not the simplest thing in the world. If you are on Ubuntu, the rails_port packages in my PPA[1] might be of help. They were originally meant to get new OSM developers up and running quicker, but I guess they might also be used by users of the OSM rails_port software. Assuming the packages still work (which they might not, as they pull the code directly from http://git.openstreetmap.org/rails.git/ and thus change every time some one commits something and can break), it should get you up and running with the website code together with the API and backend database. Note though, that the rails port will pull tiles from osm.org for its slippy map and not from your own database. For this you will need to additionally set up your own tile server and sync it with your API database. Then you need to configure it to pull tiles from there. However, the rails_port code is very tailor made to OpenStreetMap.org and not ideally modularized to be well configurable for third party sites. So you might hit some issues, although hopefully it should be ok if you are fine with just the features on osm.org. Kai [1] https://launchpad.net/~kakrueger/+archive/openstreetmap/+packages Toby On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Stephane Goldstein lt;s.n.g@gt; wrote: Thanks Jaime. I think this is still beyond my reach right now. I have no experience in development or coding. I was thinking that maybe there was some simpler solution. Maybe some day. I think it would be of great value for the GIS people to have such tool at hands. - Original Message - From: Jaime Crespo Sent: 03/09/12 04:37 PM To: Stephane Goldstein Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM software 2012/3/9 Stephane Goldstein lt;s.n.g@gt;: Hello. OSM has already been proved as the ultimate tool for collaborative mapping. Is there a way someone could use the same platform to work on private mapping colaboration projects ? Check out lt;http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Developgt; and further help on lt;http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/devgt;. -- Jaime Crespo ___ talk mailing list talk@ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-software-tp5550926p5551909.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Feedback requested ... OSM Poland data
jaakkoh wrote Umh. Of course other (as in any) maps can be used for _some_ level of verification (such as: oh, there seems to b a rd here! I should go out and survey that!) -- Or should I rather say navigation to help in one's own surveying. Furthermore, we are currently doing that on a large scale with our own data. We are using CC-BY-SA data to verify where we need to re-survey to create an ODbL database. There are even a whole bunch of great tools that make this as easy and systematic as possible. So I presume that form of verification is legal and is not covered by the share alike clause of the license. jaakkoh wrote Perhaps we're going into nitty-gritty over the term verification, here? Well, perhaps we do need to actually define the term much better to be able to judge if that is a violation of copyright / the license. If their definition of verification e.g does not go beyond the definition of verification of CC-BY-SA / ODbL data, which has thus presumably been deemed acceptable, then it wouldn't be an extra grant (which wouldn't really be possible) but simply a clarification as various of the other community guidelines that have been defined. If in turn this would lead to UMP accepting to allow to keep their data, that would be a major win for all! Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-Feedback-requested-OSM-Poland-data-tp5540425p5549631.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google Summer of Code
Frederik Ramm wrote In my opinion, it would be very much desirable to actually have individual students who *are* *already* *active* in OSM suggest a project that they would like - and feel capable - to do, and then use these ideas in our application. Or, if that is not possible, at the very least have someone who has a very concrete idea of what needs doing and who says this is what needs doing, and I am willing to mentor it. I think a project that is sugested by someone *already* *active* in the OSM development community and is a project that was on their (long) todo list already can be fairly valuable. The chance that they would then take on the project after GSoC is finished if the student doesn't continue them self is hopefully sufficiently large to make it worth it. It does seem like a good opportunity to finally get a start in one of those projects one always wanted to do. Assuming one is willing to mentor it. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Google-Summer-of-Code-tp5538926p5539220.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] toolserver.org - wer kennt interna
jan99 wrote Hi ! bald ist es nun soweit. Die Lizenzumstellung steht vor der Tür. In einer Webseite die ich in den nächsten Tagen online geht wird die Karte vom toolserver.org genutzt. Kennt sich einer von Euch mit interna dort aus - insbesondere wie die Planungen für die Verfügbarkeit zum Zeitpunkt der Lizenzumstellung sein wird. Bei toolserver.org ist so weit ich weiss erst einmal nichts geplant. Vermutlich wird am Tag der Lizenzumstellung der diff import gestopt. Die Karten bleiben weiter bestehen wie zuvor. Dann wird man weiter sehen. Irgendwann wird man wohl einen neuen Import der DB machen muessen mit dem neuesten ODBL planet. Wie lange das dauern wird, kann ich noch nicht sagen. Das haengt wahrscheinlich auch davon aus wie gross der Schaden nach der Umstellung ist und ab wann der ODBL planet besser als der letzte CC-BY-SA planet ist. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/toolserver-org-wer-kennt-interna-tp5524255p5525890.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Fehlende Attribution bei Geocaching.com (und MapQuest?)
Benjamin Lebsanft wrote es gibt http://open.mapquest.com/ mit OSM und https://www.mapquest.com/ ohne OSM, von daher werden sie wohl letzteres verwenden denke ich. mapquest.com (die nicht open Version) verwendet teilweise auch OSM Daten, aber eben nicht ausschliesslich. Wenn man z.B. Kuba, Haiti, Zypern oder die Philippinen auf www.mapquest.com verwendet sieht man das sie OSM Daten verwenden. In Amerika und Europa hingegen verwenden sie Navteq Daten. Genauso wie Google und Bing verwendet Mapquest non open ein Gemisch aus diversen Kartendaten Anbietern mit jeweils den besten Daten fuer eine gewisse Region die sich leisten koennen / wollen. OSM ist einer dieser Anbieter. Dort wo OSM auf www.mapquest.com verwendet wird, wird es auch normalerweise korrekt attributiert. (Wobei ich in der Vergangenheit schon mal gelegentlich gesehen habe das die Boundingboxes, die die Attribution zwischen den Datenanbietern wechselt, nicht 100% zu stimmen scheint) open.mapquest.com verwendet ausschliesslich OSM Daten. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Fehlende-Attribution-bei-Geocaching-com-und-MapQuest-tp5488758p5490162.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Online-Router
Stephan Wolff wrote Moin, ich vermisse einen leicht aufrufbaren und aktuellen Online-Router für OSM Daten. Die Routingdaten sind bei OpenRouteService, YOURS und Cloudmade mehrere Monate alt und passen teilweise nicht zur angezeigten Karte. Der wohl derzeit aktuellste Online router ist der von mapquest open http://open.mapquest.de/ So weit ich weis wird der einmal taeglich (oder vielleicht sogar alle 15 Minuten) aktuallisiert. Der sollte auch Dinge wie turn restrictions und andere OSM routing tags unterstuetzen, ist also hoffentlich eine einigermassen gute Darstellung der Daten. Stephan Wolff wrote Die zweite wichtige Funktion eines Online-Routers ist die Fehlersuche für Mapper. Beim Aufspalten von Straßen in zwei Richtungsfahrbahnen oder beim Editieren komplexer Kreuzungen entstehen leicht Fehler. Manche Fehler sind in der Karte nicht sichtbar, führen aber zu falschen Routingergebnissen. Mit einem Online-Router wäre es leicht möglich, solche Fehler aufzuspüren. Dazu müsste der Router aber täglich (oder noch häufiger) aktualisiert werden. Nach einer Woche kontrolliert kaum noch ein Mapper seine Ergänzungen und die Fehler sind bereits auf die Garminkarten u. ä. übernommen. Die Funktion der Unterstuetzung zum Bugfixen der Daten fuer die Routingfaehigkeit ist imho der wichtigste Grund einer Integration einses routers auf osm.org. Es gibt inzwischen eine ganze Reihe von Navigationsgeraeten mit OSM daten, sei es die Garmin maps, iPhone oder Android apps wie Skobbler oder Navmii, Nachruestprogramme fuer normale Sat Navs wie Mapfactor Navigator Free, oder websites wie Cyclestreets oder mapquest open. Damit duerfte bereits jetzt routing eine der wichtigsten Verwendung von OSM routing sein. Dennoch laesst die Qualitaet der OSM Daten fuer routing haeufig zu wuenschen uebrig. Ein guter Teil davon liegt daran das viele dieser Probleme Mappern nicht bewust sind, da sie nicht auf der OSM.org Karte dargestellt werden. Es gibt zwar einige hilfreichen debug tools wie keepright, OSMI und mapdust, die werden aber vom Durschschnittsmapper wohl nicht sonderlich haeufig verwendet. Aus disesm Grund ist es auch geplant das irgendwann routing auch auf die osm.org Seite einzieht. Die OSMF hat dem grundsaetzlich zugestimmt und sobald die technischen und administrativen Huerden ausgeraeumt sind wird es hoffentlich auch umgesetzt. Stephan Wolff wrote Was wäre für einen Online-Router auf der Hautseite des Projekts nötig? Zwei der Top Ten Tasks die die Sysadmins gerne auf osm.org umgesetzt sehen wuerden[1] drehen sich um das routing. Zum einen die Programmierung des Frontends, also der eigentlichen Integration des routers in OSM.org, und zum anderen die Evaluierung welche der routing engines geeignet ist dafuer das osm sie betreiben koennte. Eine demo der Integration gibt es bereits: http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/routing Code: https://github.com/apmon/openstreetmap-website/commits/routing2 Allerdings benoetigt sie noch einiges an Arbeit. Den Feedback den ich bislang bekommen habe ist das zum einen der Code noch nicht sauber genug ist und noch ein ausfuerlicher Code cleanup und review benoetigt wird und zum anderen wird der routing tab nicht gerne gesehen. Das groessere Problem ist allerdings das routing backend. Um routing auf osm.org zu verwenden, muss mindestens einer der Router von osm betrieben werdem damit die Seite nicht von drittanbietern abhaengt die jederzeit verschwinden koennten. Die Hauptkandidaten dafuer sind wohl Gosmore(YOURS) und OSRM, aber insgesamt sind keine der Routingengines bislang wirklich ideal. Beide router haben leider einen sehr hohen Resourcen verbrauch (OSRM benoetigt riesinge mengen an RAM und Gosmore funktioniert nicht uebermaessig schnell und hat einen hohen CPU verbrauch) aber auch noch ein paar andere Probleme. Herauszufinden genau was fuer ein Server benoetigt wird um ein weltweites routing anzubieten wird derzeit noch untersucht. Falls jemand noch andere Routingengines kennt, die in Frage kaemmen, lasst es mich wissen. Wer das routing backend dann administrativ betreut und am laufen haelt ist auch noch nicht geklaert. Unteranderem auch da das backend noch nicht entschieden ist. Insgesamt schaetze ich mal das das ganze aber wohl leider noch ein paar Monate dauern wird. Irgend wann wird routing aber auf osm.org einziehen... Kai [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Online-Router-tp5473230p5473380.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say
SimonPoole wrote There is nothing stopping anybody from building this great hunking online map site with OSM-data with all the whizz-bang features they want (and it is conceivable that the OSMF could support such an enterprise parallel to core-OSM). Fact is that nobody has volunteered to do it There is a second aspect to this too though, motivation. If every time someone suggests some improvements into the consumer side of things, they get shot down by the oldtimers and other people who decide what happens in the project, because they want to stay as geeky as possible and not adapt to becoming more consumer oriented, then the motivation to code any feature in that direction is close to zero. There is probably not much that can kill motivation to work on a project in ones own free time more than getting told your effort isn't wanted and then having to fight for getting something included for years... The first step to getting coders, therefore, is imho to actually have a desire to want to include these kind of features. As long as there remains a hostile environment to these things, they won't happen and you end up having a viscous circle. I know full well, there is much more that is needed than just the desire to make things happen, but the desire is equally necessary. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Things-People-Say-tp7131801p7137764.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say
Toby Murray-2 wrote On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Ben Johnson lt;tangararama@gt; wrote: You don't hear Wikipedia trumpeting we are not an encyclopedia, we are a database of information. No... they scream from the mountain tops we are the world's encyclopedia, and absolutely relish in it. Why can't OSM be also scream from a nearby mountain top, we are the world's map I mean, what's so embarrassing about providing a good, comprehensive, accessible map? It's an accomplishment of which we should all be proud, not hide away. [...] I do think there is a non-trivial technical difference between OSM and wikipedia. The text of a given wikipedia article is 90% of the value. It can be displayed as-is and still be useful. Making it pretty and user-friendly is relatively trivial with some CSS or whatever. Our map data is completely different. It is absolutely useless to most people without a rendering process which is much more complicated than formatting some HTML. There are color schemes, rendering choices, de-clutterification, regional cartographic conventions, etc, etc. Which is why we leave it up to other people to do this since they can make what they need out of our data. One can turn that example around by 180°: Despite the fact that wikipedia's raw data, a XML dump, is so much easier to turn into something usable than OSM's data, they still put in the effort to present it in a human usable form. For OSM with its useless to most people data, it is even more important to present it in a human consumable fashion. This conversion doesn't have to all be done by OSMF, but there needs to be a central place with easy to understand access to all of the various options. Furthermore, if no external third party provides an adequate and easy to integrate version of something, then OSMF has to think about if it can support the creation of consumer facing products, as that is imho essential for the growth of OSM data. What needs to be overcome is that one currently has to study the organizational diagram of the OSM project with its hundreds of independent third party sites, before one can figure out how to get anything useful out of osm and to avoid getting an unfriendly response of that one is doing it completely wrong. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Things-People-Say-tp7131801p7137794.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Was ist mit OpenStreetMap.org los?
Barthwo wrote Zuerst twittern sie es gäbe neue Optionen hinter dem (+) aber wenn man reingeht, geht nichts mehr wie vorher: Das Problem hatte ich kurzfristig auch, funktioniert aber bei mir inzwischen wieder ohne Problem. Vermutlich war das ein kleiner Hickup der schnell behoben wurde. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Was-ist-mit-OpenStreetMap-org-los-tp7031673p7031949.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Neue OpenStreetMap Deutschland Webseite ist online!
Die Seite wirkt gut gelungen und uebersichtlich und scheint auf die wichtigsten Informationen zu verlinken! Das ist bei der Komplexitaet OSM's nicht gerade leicht. Danke fuer die Muehe und Umsetzung an alle Beteiligten. Aber auch von mir noch ein zwei Ideen/Anregungen zur Karten-Seite: - Der Bearbeitungslink oeffnet OSM.org in einem separaten Tab. Waere es denkbar Potlatch 2 direkt in die osm.de Seite zu integrieren? - Aehnliches mit dem Bugreport: Wiederum waere es moeglicherweise uebersichtlicher wenn die OSB funktionalitaet direkt in osm.de eingebaut werden koennte. Es gibt eine OpenLayers Erweiterung die das ganze recht leicht, mit nur sehr wenig code, fuer einem erledigt. ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetBugs_layer ) -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Neue-OpenStreetMap-Deutschland-Webseite-ist-online-tp7011129p7011605.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Fehler Import planet.osm.bz2: pending_ways failed: out of memory for query result
Jan Jesse wrote: Also: Ubuntu 10.11 (32 Bit) auf einer VMWare-Instanz, 4 GB Ram, ca. 350 GB SSD's. Gibt es einen Grund ein 32bit Ubuntu hierfuer zu verwenden? Wahrscheinlich liegt der Fehler nicht daran, helfen tut das 32bit System bei 4Gb Ram und osm2pgsql aber mit Sicherheit auch nicht. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fehler-Import-planet-osm-bz2-pending-ways-failed-out-of-memory-for-query-result-tp6989522p6990488.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Fehler Import planet.osm.bz2: pending_ways failed: out of memory for query result
Jan Jesse wrote: Going over pending ways pending_ways failed: out of memory for query result Der Query pending_ways ist SELECT id FROM %p_ways WHERE pending; Das heist der query result enthaelt die ids aller ways die als pending markiert wurden. Von dem was ich gesehen habe sind das ueblicherweise ca. die Haelfte aller ways. Bei einem vollen Planet Import sind das extrem viele. Das kann also gut sein, das das nicht mehr in 4Gb RAM passt, bzw auf einem 32bit system vielleicht sogar noch weniger. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fehler-Import-planet-osm-bz2-pending-ways-failed-out-of-memory-for-query-result-tp6989522p6990502.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Esri spain abuse?
humano wrote: Hello mappers ESRI use our map[0] without respecting the terms of our license [0] http://www.votosycifras.com/ This looks to me more like a bug in the initialisation of their attribution code. If you click on Fondo=OpenStreetMap the correct attribution (© OpenStreetMap contributors, CC-BY-SA Including links to OpenStreetMap and CC-BY-SA) appears at the usual place for attributions. For some reason it is just not displayed by default. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Esri-spain-abuse-tp6961134p6961438.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Installing your own tileserver on Ubuntu
On 10/26/2011 04:58 PM, Jo wrote: [...] This is setup on my portable and I was wondering: Do I have to set a cron job for the tiles-update-expire to run every hour? What happens when I switch off my portable. Will the changes of the past night all be applied with the first run of the tiles-update-expire script? Or should I run this script every 20 minutes, in the morning, so it can catch up? In its current version, the tiles-update-expire script runs the osmosis minutely replication task once. As the default of osmosis is to only collect one hour of minutely diffs at a time, this script will only update the db by up to an hour per invocation. So if you are more than one hour behind, you will need to run it multiple times to catch up. I should fix the script to include the while loop within the script so that if there are still more data to fetch it will automatically do that and you would only need to call the script once to be fully up-to-date again. I've been running it almost continuously for the past few hours and it always seems to have a lot of work to do... You are probably quite a number of hours behind the db after the initial import. Either because the import takes a while, or because your extract is a day or so old. Anyway, now I'll have to work on adding layers for cycling, hiking, horseback and bus routes and their stylesheets. Have fun with that. Thanks for making this possible, It is great to see that this seems to help people set up their own tile servers and play with the possibilities. Kai Jo ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
