Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
David, Yes, actually it does. When one "believes", it entails much more than just saying "I believe". Before one can truly believe one must understand one's need for salvation, and this is predicated upon one's recognizing that they are a sinner and an understanding that they must repent from their sin. So, the process of establishing one's belief consists of recognizing that one is a sinner and, as such, is unworthy of standing before a just and holy God, realizing that there is nothing they can do to correct their sinful situation on their own, repenting of their sin, then putting their faith in Jesus Christ as the one whose sacrifice can save them. THEN we can say that one truly believes and is saved. No, I do not think that one who does not repent is truly saved. In fact, one who does not acknowledge his sin never feels that he needs to repent, or that he even needs a savior. Provided he believes in an afterlife, he believes that he will get into heaven because he has done nice things (works), and is not a bad person (self righteousness). I also believe that it is the Holy spirit that convicts us of our sin in the first place and leads us to belief. Otherwise, I fear that we might all be lost. By all means, when I say that one has faith, I also imply all that leads up to developing true faith. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:28:47 -0800 "Charles P. Locke" wrote: > Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes > through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There > is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. DAVEH: Perry..Does repentance have anything to do with salvation? IOW, can those who don't repent be saved? > It is totally a work of our Lord and > Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace. > > Perry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Ad hominem remarks
Thank you, Brother... and Shalom! -- slade Do not hit the REPLY button when responding to this email. Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] directly. My hotmail account is used exclusively for out-going email. Thank you. - Original Message - From: Marlin Halverson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2003 00:50 Subject: [TruthTalk] Ad hominem remarks Dear Slade, Long before you came on board, I dealt with the same incoherence. Glen was accusing me of being a judaiser who supports Hitler before he left. Go figure. Ad hominem remarks and name calling come from those who lack proof for their claims. The practice of placing words in the mouths of others who never said them is simply a violation of the commandment that says not to bear false witness against one's neighbor. It was interesting to see how long such a false witness would be banted about before some list contributors would realize who fabricated it. I found dealing with this to be a waste of precious time. I encourage list members to always ask Who? What? Where? When? Why? How? This strikes at the heart of the truth. There is "truth" and there is "the truth." That is what I seek after. For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth. 3JO 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 2JO 1:3 --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
1CO 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. - Original Message - From: "Dave Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers > > > "Charles P. Locke" wrote:> > > Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes> > through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There> > is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves.> > DAVEH: Perry..Does repentance have anything to do with salvation? IOW, can those who don't repent be saved?> > > It is totally a work of our Lord and> > Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.> >> > Perry> > --> ~~~> Dave Hansen> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.langlitz.com> ~~~> If you wish to receive> things I find interesting,> I maintain Five email lists...> JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,> STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.> > > --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.>
[TruthTalk] Ad hominem remarks
Dear Slade, Long before you came on board, I dealt with the same incoherence. Glen was accusing me of being a judaiser who supports Hitler before he left. Go figure. Ad hominem remarks and name calling come from those who lack proof for their claims. The practice of placing words in the mouths of others who never said them is simply a violation of the commandment that says not to bear false witness against one's neighbor. It was interesting to see how long such a false witness would be banted about before some list contributors would realize who fabricated it. I found dealing with this to be a waste of precious time. I encourage list members to always ask Who? What? Where? When? Why? How? This strikes at the heart of the truth. There is "truth" and there is "the truth." That is what I seek after. For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth. 3JO 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 2JO 1:3 --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
"Charles P. Locke" wrote: > Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes > through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There > is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. DAVEH: Perry..Does repentance have anything to do with salvation? IOW, can those who don't repent be saved? > It is totally a work of our Lord and > Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace. > > Perry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Testimony of Stephen (and his enemies)
Again, I encourage you, Glenn, to tell me how I twisted Scripture here. All I did was QUOTE it. The twisting is in your theology... nay... not your theology and not your doctrine. That's the problem. The Scripture I quoted unraveled your Humanistic Dogma. Growing pains hurt, Glenn. Learn from them and grow up. -- slade - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 22 March, 2003 22:45 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Testimony of Stephen (and his enemies) Again, you quote Scripture just like Satan. The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen. But they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking. Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God." And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council. They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us." And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel. The high priest said, "Are these things so?" (Acts 6:7-7:1)
Re: [TruthTalk] The Apostle Paul's Testimony
I am not a 7th day Adventist. I am a Messianic Jew (for lack of a better term). I never said Shabbat worship is required for salvation. YOU DID. I never said I believed in works-based salvation. YOU DID. When you said "My position is not that one can't worship on Saturday. One can worship EVERY or ANY day," you contradicted yourself from emails you posted on 21 Mar 2003 17:00, 21 Mar 2003 23:34, 20 March, 2003 23:11, 21 March, 2003 06:56. I have highlighted your contradictions in red for your easy perusal. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 21 March, 2003 17:00 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers The Bible does not say so. The Bible tells us no such thing. Romans 14:5-6. Why don't you call God Jehovah? I call your doctrine a lie hatched out of hell by Satan himself. Who are you to judge another? Romans 14:4. Stupid statement no. 2 - Friday ends at midnight now. Saturday begins at 12:01 now. Facts are facts. Does anyone know of a discussion group where the owners believe in salvation by grace through faith plus nothing, minus nothing?TT no longer has a Protestant foundation. We should worship YHVH on EVERY day... not just on the day you think Jesus was resurrected. I keep one particular day HOLY because the commandments tell me to do so. That day begins on "Friday" at sundown until sundown on "Saturday" night. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 21 March, 2003 23:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Remember the Sun's Day, to keep it holy The Son's day is Sunday. The first day of the week. It Jesus' day because he arose from the dead on Sunday. Marlin a child of Jesus? He is a child of Saturday worship among other swine doctrine. I'm leaving again, as I can't put up with the pig smell on TT. It goes from the top to the bottom. And the American military have all the gas masks. 99% of the people of TT think just like the Church of Christ thinkers. are you both 'children of jesus'? how so? g From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 20 March, 2003 23:11 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Izzy, you have just sinned against me for judging me. You judged me wrong. I rebuke you along with rebuking Sabbath observance. You do no know my heart. You have sinned. "Judge not that ye be not judged". People on TT love to misuse Bible. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 21 March, 2003 06:56 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Glenn to DaveH - I don't think you understood me. I mean I don't keep Saturday. I meet with Christians on Sunday. I believe it is a sin not to worship when our brothers and sisters worship. Hebrews 10:25. Additionally... I ENCOURAGE YOU to tell me now I "abuse Scripture and quote it just like Satan did at the temptation of Christ." All I did was quote Acts 21:19-27 and Numbers 6:31-21. -- slade - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 22 March, 2003 22:45 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Apostle Paul's Testimony My position is not that one can't worship on Saturday. One can worship EVERY or ANY day. What is a sin is to require others to Saturday worship (a la 7th Day Adventists) in order to go to heaven.What is a sin is to abuse Scripture and quote it just like Satan did at the temptation of Christ.My position is that 7th Day Adventists are a cult. I have come to this conclusion only from TT. I didn't used to believe this. For you to say the Law (which includes the one and only Sabbath) is dead or that it is a sin to keep it, contradicts the testimony of Paul. Paul himself participated in the Nazir vow. He participated in SIN SACRIFICES.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Testimony of Stephen (and his enemies)
Again, you quote Scripture just like Satan. The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith. And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen. But they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking. Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God." And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council. They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us." And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel. The high priest said, "Are these things so?" (Acts 6:7-7:1)
Re: [TruthTalk] The Apostle Paul's Testimony
My position is not that one can't worship on Saturday. One can worship EVERY or ANY day. What is a sin is to require others to Saturday worship (a la 7th Day Adventists) in order to go to heaven. What is a sin is to abuse Scripture and quote it just like Satan did at the temptation of Christ. My position is that 7th Day Adventists are a cult. I have come to this conclusion only from TT. I didn't used to believe this. For you to say the Law (which includes the one and only Sabbath) is dead or that it is a sin to keep it, contradicts the testimony of Paul. Paul himself participated in the Nazir vow. He participated in SIN SACRIFICES.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Terry, How very true. You are quite astute. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Glenn and Perry: Salvation does come through faith. We all know that. Where we have a problem is coming to a conclusion about what is incuded in a description of faith. We know that it has to include more than simply believing, because as James says, even the devil believes. We know that love is involved, because love covers a multitude of sins. We know repentance is involved , because without repentance there can be no forgiveness. We know obedience is involved because Jesus asked some who claimed to follow Him in word but not in deed, "Why do you call me Lord, when you do not do as I tell you to do?" The implication being that He was not their Lord, because they did not obey. We know that He must increase and we must decrease, and we know that if we have no works, then we have no faith. We cannot grab one verse out of God's word and ignore the thousands of other verses that give us the whole picture. Blessings, Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:19:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace. Perry >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers >Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:18:35 EST > >Gal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when he >goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the >law. >Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day >Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult. > >The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away >plain >Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law. > > > If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS > > FINISHED"! > > How much more dows it take? > > > > Terry > > > _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. . IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here <>
[TruthTalk] The Testimony of Stephen (and his enemies)
The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith. And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen. But they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking. Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God." And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council. They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us." And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel. The high priest said, "Are these things so?" (Acts 6:7-7:1)
Re:Re: [TruthTalk] TTXPRESS in Englewood?
yes/thx, Slade FTR, For those who need an address for g (Gary Ottoson), go to http://poet235.com/p235.htm and use this link imbedded at the bottom of the page as/= 'Contact': http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=get_connected.directory&mode=directory_by_name#O best regards :-) gary ottoson * http://aa1ozg.com Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] The Apostle Paul's Testimony
A little forground. The Apostle Paul entered Jerusalem and a group of BELIEVERS IN MESSIAH WHO ARE ZEALOUS FOR THE TORAH (LAW) were in Jerusalem at that time. When Paul gets there, the Jerusalem Council gets together to hear if Paul is really teaching against circumcision and the Law of Moses. They give him an ultimatum. If you do NOT teach against the Law of Moses, help some men take the Nazarite Vow (found in Numbers 6). Let's see what happens: After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law, and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him... (Acts 21:19-27) Do you know what is involved with the closure of a Nazarite vow? Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their grain offering and their drink offering. Then the priest shall present them before the Lord and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering. He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the Lord, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head of hair at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings. The priest shall take the ram's shoulder when it has been boiled, and one unleavened cake out of the basket and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them on the hands of the Nazirite after he has shaved his dedicated hair. Then the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord. It is holy for the priest, together with the breast offered by waving and the thigh offered by lifting up; and afterward the Nazirite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazirite who vows his offering to the Lord according to his separation, in addition to what else he can afford; according to his vow which he takes, so he shall do according to the law of his separation. (Numbers 6:13-21) For you to say the Law (which includes the one and only Sabbath) is dead or that it is a sin to keep it, contradicts the testimony of Paul. Paul himself participated in the Nazir vow. He participated in SIN SACRIFICES. -- slade
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
This is why I use words like "salvation" to delineate what you have just said (salvation from calamity) and I use "Eternal Life" in reference to being saved from the handwritten ordinances against us (Col 2). -- slade - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 22 March, 2003 21:24 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers You are right. I was trying to give an illustration of the context. The context of Acts 2:40 had to do with the evil civilization around them. Below was what I was trying to illustrate. This verse is not about getting saved from my sins but about get saved from physical destruction in context.The New John Gill Exposition of the Biblesaying, save yourselves from this untoward generation:meaning, the chief priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, and elders of the people, chiefly, who were a perverse generation of men; and upon whom, for their impenitence and unbelief, for their rejection of the Messiah, and their evil treatment of him, wrath and ruin would come upon them, to the uttermost, very quickly; wherefore the apostle exhorts to separate from them, and not partake of their sins, lest they should also of their plagues; but come out from among them, and so, in a temporal sense, save themselves from the destruction that would quickly come on their nation, city, and temple; and so the Arabic version renders it, "escape from this rough generation".
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
You are right. I was trying to give an illustration of the context. The context of Acts 2:40 had to do with the evil civilization around them. Below was what I was trying to illustrate. This verse is not about getting saved from my sins but about get saved from physical destruction in context. The New John Gill Exposition of the Bible saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation: meaning, the chief priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, and elders of the people, chiefly, who were a perverse generation of men; and upon whom, for their impenitence and unbelief, for their rejection of the Messiah, and their evil treatment of him, wrath and ruin would come upon them, to the uttermost, very quickly; wherefore the apostle exhorts to separate from them, and not partake of their sins, lest they should also of their plagues; but come out from among them, and so, in a temporal sense, save themselves from the destruction that would quickly come on their nation, city, and temple; and so the Arabic version renders it, "escape from this rough generation". Glenn said... What you say above means one cannot save themselves. I think you know the context of Acts 2:40. If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam H. That is the context of Acts 2:40. Uhhh... whatever happened to "salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing?" You've also said, "I use the term salvation in a common sense way. I use the term to mean I have had my sins forgiven and the Holy Spirit lives within me." You are now contradicting yourself because you said, "If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam!" Your suggesting salvation through WORKS for the Republican Guard in Baghdad, and I must disagree with you on this point, for Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) But that is followed IMMEDIATELY by: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Are you suggesting that the rest of us can be saved by separating ourselves from Saddam as well, or does this LAW apply only to the Republican Guard in Baghdad? -- slade
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Glenn said... What you say above means one cannot save themselves. I think you know the context of Acts 2:40. If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam H. That is the context of Acts 2:40. Uhhh... whatever happened to "salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing?" You've also said, "I use the term salvation in a common sense way. I use the term to mean I have had my sins forgiven and the Holy Spirit lives within me." You are now contradicting yourself because you said, "If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam!" Your suggesting salvation through WORKS for the Republican Guard in Baghdad, and I must disagree with you on this point, for Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) But that is followed IMMEDIATELY by: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Are you suggesting that the rest of us can be saved by separating ourselves from Saddam as well, or does this LAW apply only to the Republican Guard in Baghdad? -- slade
Re: [TruthTalk] TTXPRESS in Englewood?
Are you living in Englewood Colorado??? I used to live at 4184 S. Galapago St. IN Englewood many many years ago. (I like the way you hide that HTTP address in your posts.) -- slade - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 22 March, 2003 15:27 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:18:46 + "Charles P. Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand[..]salvation thought)]
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Again, David, you act like the Church of Christ. I think you should start attending one. You might like it. The Church of Christ attacks the messenger when they can't refute the message. You have attacked the messenger, and you have not refuted salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. The term "sola fide" means "faith alone." When Luther translated the Bible, he did something very much like what the Jehovah's Witnesses did with John 1:1. The JW's created a translation that added a word to the verse, so that John 1:1 says that the Word was "a god" rather than just saying the Word was "God." Luther created a translation that ADDED the word "sola" (alone) to Romans 3:28, so that the passage would read that man is justified by "faith alone" (sola fide). He felt that the context justified his insertion of this extra word.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Glenn wrote: > But you double talk. If what you say > above is true, then salvation is by grace > through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. I see your position as double talk. You say that works follow faith, but then you balk if someone suggests that someone might not have saving faith if they continue in sin. I believe that righteousness comes by faith without works, meaning, that the faith itself justifies the person before God. Nevertheless, I believe that such faith causes the Spirit of God to touch the person and cause good works to be manifest in their life. Therefore, I do not believe in "faith alone" like Martin Luther did or like you do, but rather I believe in faith without works, yet with good works soon following. We certainly seem to be splitting hairs from my perspective. I really don't understand all the grand standing about this particular issue. Glenn wrote: > What you say above means one cannot save > themselves. I think you know the context > of Acts 2:40. I agree that we cannot save ourselves, but I do not agree that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. God has extended his salvation to us, without which no man can be saved. Furthermore, in our deprived condition, we would not even be wise enough to accept his plan of salvation except that he drew us to it by his Spirit. When that happens, however, we must yield to him and respond. There is something we can do to accept his salvation, and that is respond to him, repent of our sins and believe in Christ. There are many things we can do to facilitate God working in our lives, but without Him, there would be nothing we could do of our own accord by our own works or by our own power alone. Glenn wrote: > If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants > to save themselves, then they must separate > themselves from Saddam H. That is the context > of Acts 2:40. I hope you aren't trying to say that they had to stop being Jews in Acts 2:40. I hope you understand that in Acts 2:40, nobody asked the converts to leave Judaism and become Christians. What was asked of them was to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ. Nobody asked them to change their religion. Do you see that? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Perry wrote: > David, you are right. I was taught that by > preachers. But after I was taught that, I > learned that it was this truth that awakened > Martin Luther and thus was one of the foundational > tenets of the reformation. Sola Fide, I believe it > was called. Just because it was one of the foundational tenets of the Reformation does not mean that it was right on. Sometimes errors are corrected by an overemphasis in the opposite direction. When such happens, we should not take the resultant good fruit as a justification of the absolute truth of an overemphasis. The term "sola fide" means "faith alone." When Luther translated the Bible, he did something very much like what the Jehovah's Witnesses did with John 1:1. The JW's created a translation that added a word to the verse, so that John 1:1 says that the Word was "a god" rather than just saying the Word was "God." Luther created a translation that ADDED the word "sola" (alone) to Romans 3:28, so that the passage would read that man is justified by "faith alone" (sola fide). He felt that the context justified his insertion of this extra word. Perry wrote: > I subsequently learned that the pivotal verses > that Luther read when he rediscovered this truth > were Romans 1:16,17. However, that is a reference > to Habbakuk 2:4, which is yet a reference to Abraham > and his faith, which was accounted to him as righteousness, > as written in Genesis 15:6. This certainly goes back > a bit further than "modern easy believism preachers", > wouldn't you agree? Yes, these passages do go further back, but modern easy believism is fruit from "sola fide." Even Luther recognized this problem in his later years when he lamented the moral decline of those in the reformation. I'm not as comfortable with Martin Luther as you might be. It bothers me that he so readily dismissed the faith of so many of the church fathers, such as Augustine. Most disconcerting to me, however, is that he took an outright belligerent stand against men like Copernicus who believed the earth revolved around the sun. His attitude was outright belligerent, kind of like Glenn's attitude toward me, calling him an "upstart astrologer" and a fool, and he used the Scriptures to prove a point which we now know is utterly false. Of course, he had no respect whatsoever for James, and Luther declared his epistle not to be of the Holy Spirit, but rather an epistle of straw and good only to be burned. I strongly object to Martin Luther in these points, so please try to understand that from my perspective, mentioning his name hinders rather than helps any argument for the Biblical justification of sola fide. If Luther couldn't justify the idea without cutting out a book from the Bible and adding to God's Word in another place, I'm skeptical that modern theologians can do much better. Perry wrote: > Then, in many other places in the new testament, > faith is indicated to be that means by which we > receive salvation. And I believe this very much, that salvation comes through faith, just as Paul taught. Nevertheless, I do not reject the epistle of James, as Luther did. I see that faith produces good works, and so I agree with James that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (James 2:24). Perry wrote: > To save oneself, "if thou shalt confess with thy > mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine > heart that God hath raised him from the dead, > thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth > unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is > made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9,10). > We are not performing a "work" in this instance...we > are accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ as the truth; > we are believing it; we have faith that what God has > promised is so. If you look closely at Romans 10:9,10, you will see that Paul distinguishes between "believing" and "confessing." I see confessing as a "work." It is something which a person does when they believe, it is something brought about by faith. Furthermore, I would say that a person who claims to believe but does not confess does not have saving faith. Perry wrote: > "Saving oneself", then, is NOT denying the saving > nature of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, > but accepting it as truth. This sounds like intellectual assent to me. I would say that such faith cannot save. Even the devil accepts as truth the saving nature of the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ. Saving faith must be as Glenn explained it, not just intellectual, but a trust in Christ to personally save you. Perry wrote: > Keeping the Lord's commandments does play a > part in our belief. Keeping His commandments > is our RESPONSE to being saved. I agree. Perry wrote: > You refer to "if you will enter into life, keep > the commandments" (Mat. 19:17)". Do you think > that this means that "if you enter into life > (have faith), then keep the commandments", or > does it mean "if y
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Perry: For the Jewish folk, Galatians 3:24 (Therefore, the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.) Being a gentile,I was never under the law. (Lev.27:34) (The law is for the children of Israel) (Romans 2:14 The gentiles do not have the law.) Actually, you need to just read the whole book of Galatians the way it was written, as a letter. A verse here and there does not give the whole picture. What Paul says is what I think. Terry I am also interested in hearing your answer to the second question I asked: "If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant?"Perry>From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers>Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 07:03:23 -0600 (Central Standard Time)Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that >nothing>>will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesus>fulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the new>covenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came to>fulfil?>>Perry>>>If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS >FINISHED>!> How much more dows it take?>>Terry_Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers/correction
I use the term salvation in a common sense way. I use the term to mean I have had my sins forgiven and the Holy Spirit lives within me. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hey, glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand[..]salvation what is 'salvation'? ||
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Glenn wrote: > I believe that George Washington was President > of the United States but I am not believing in > GW to take me to heaven. ... > I am not believing in church membership, > perfectionism, baptism, Lord's Supper, > works, etc., to take me to heaven. I haven't heard anyone on TruthTalk argue that church membership, perfectionism, or the Lord's Supper save men. I think most of us, perhaps all of us, have the same concept of faith as what you describe here. Glenn, don't you believe that a man with faith will have good works follow him? That is what we believe. Aren't we in agreement with this? Doesn't faith produce good works? I don't understand who or what you are arguing against. Glenn - Yes, I agree with what you said above. But you double talk. If what you say above is true, then salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. What you say above is the opposite of what you said previously about not believing in salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. You cannot have it both ways. What you say above means one cannot save themselves. I think you know the context of Acts 2:40. If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam H. That is the context of Acts 2:40. All I can tell is that you have some chip on your shoulder against me personally. Why do you hate me so much? Glenn - I assure you, I do not hate you. In fact, I like you. I appreciate you very much. I would love to meet you sometime. I think you are as sincere a person as I have ever met. That's why I have come down so hard on you when you get mixed up in a works salvation while giving lip service to a grace salvation. I love you in the Lord. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
David, you are right. I was taught that by preachers. But after I was taught that, I learned that it was this truth that awakened Martin Luther and thus was one of the foundational tenets of the reformation. Sola Fide, I believe it was called. I subsequently learned that the pivotal verses that Luther read when he rediscovered this truth were Romans 1:16,17. However, that is a reference to Habbakuk 2:4, which is yet a reference to Abraham and his faith, which was accounted to him as righteousness, as written in Genesis 15:6. This certainly goes back a bit further than "modern easy believism preachers", wouldn't you agree? Then, in many other places in the new testament, faith is indicated to be that means by which we receive salvation. To save oneself, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9,10). We are not performing a "work" in this instance...we are accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ as the truth; we are believing it; we have faith that what God has promised is so. "Saving oneself", then, is NOT denying the saving nature of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, but accepting it as truth. Keeping the Lord's commandments does play a part in our belief. Keeping His commandments is our RESPONSE to being saved. It is evidence of our desire to please Him whose abundant mercy and grace have saved us because of our faith. Keeping the commandments is the evidence of the changed life; the fruit by which we shall be known. You refer to "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mat. 19:17)". Do you think that this means that "if you enter into life (have faith), then keep the commandments", or does it mean "if you keep my commandments, then you will enter into life"? I believe the former. I do believe that we are expected to keep the commandments, which are outlined by Jesus in the verses below, and in other places in the scriptures. However, I do not believe that we are expected to live sinless lives...in fact, I believe that we cannot. The verse "be ye therefore perfect because your father in heaven is perfect" is the passage commonly used as a prooftext for this belief, but if one considers what "perfect" meant in 1611, it does not mean the same as it does today.(* I included the strongs definition of "perfect" and have included it as a footnote. It seems the dominant meaning is "complete".) Additional verses are found in 1 John 1:9,10. Why would we need to confess sins if we do not sin? By the way, the full verse that you quoted, with those that follow, are: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. I did not see keeping the sabbath in there. Did you? Looks like it is not necessary to keep the sabbath in order to "enter into life". At least that is what Jesus told the "one" that asked. Why would he omit the first through fourth commandments in His response? Perry * 5046. teleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neut. (as noun, with G3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect. From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:23:52 -0500 Perry wrote: > Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand > that salvation comes through faith, "not of works, > lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) Amen. I believe this too. Perry wrote: > There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. > It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. > To God be the glory for his endless mercy and > grace. Ask yourself where you heard this kind of teaching? I'm talking about the way you worded your commentary. Does the Bible teach this anywhere? What teaching in the Bible supports this idea of "NOTHING WE CAN DO" to save ourselves? (I'm serious... this is not a rhetorical question... please give me references.) Didn't Peter preach, "save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40)? What good does it do to tell people to save themselves if there is nothing they can do? I think if you are honest with examining where you got your viewpoint here, you will see that it came not from studying the Bible, but from listening to popular Christian preachers. It comes from the instant salvation, easy believism kind of Christianity that does not tell believers to count the c
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Tremendous post.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers/correction
|| ftr, the foregoing analogy seems like very preachable stuff by (e.g.) DrGT and[Perry]... On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:27:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:18:46 + "Charles P. Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> Hey, glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand[..]salvation what is 'salvation'? ||
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Glenn wrote: > I believe that George Washington was President > of the United States but I am not believing in > GW to take me to heaven. ... > I am not believing in church membership, > perfectionism, baptism, Lord's Supper, > works, etc., to take me to heaven. I haven't heard anyone on TruthTalk argue that church membership, perfectionism, or the Lord's Supper save men. I think most of us, perhaps all of us, have the same concept of faith as what you describe here. Glenn, don't you believe that a man with faith will have good works follow him? That is what we believe. Aren't we in agreement with this? Doesn't faith produce good works? I don't understand who or what you are arguing against. All I can tell is that you have some chip on your shoulder against me personally. Why do you hate me so much? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
What you are saying below is a smoke screen to the truth. It doesn't address the point that the law if over. It is much ado about nothing. Saying, "It is finished" does not mean that everything is finished. Jesus was talking about his destiny to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. That's what he meant by, "it is finished."
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Terry wrote: > If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could > not have stated "IT IS FINISHED"! > How much more dows it take? Are you saying that you believe that every prophecy has already been fulfilled? Are you saying that the resurrection and eternal judgment has already taken place? Saying, "It is finished" does not mean that everything is finished. Jesus was talking about his destiny to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. That's what he meant by, "it is finished." Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Terry, there is Biblical saving faith and there is intellectual faith. I believe that George Washington was President of the United States but I am not believing in GW to take me to heaven. I am not believing in church membership, perfectionism, baptism, Lord's Supper, works, etc., to take me to heaven. Glenn and Perry: Salvation does come through faith. We all know that. Where we have a problem is coming to a conclusion about what is incuded in a description of faith. We know that it has to include more than simply believing, because as James says, even the devil believes. We know that love is involved, because love covers a multitude of sins. We know repentance is involved , because without repentance there can be no forgiveness. We know obedience is involved because Jesus asked some who claimed to follow Him in word but not in deed, "Why do you call me Lord, when you do not do as I tell you to do?" The implication being that He was not their Lord, because they did not obey. We know that He must increase and we must decrease, and we know that if we have no works, then we have no faith. We cannot grab one verse out of God's word and ignore the thousands of other verses that give us the whole picture. Blessings, Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:18:46 + "Charles P. Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand[..]salvation what is 'salvation'? you know we're in the aftermath of a huge snowstorm here, in Denver..in which i saw numerous examples of 'salvation' (imo) when gracious people used powerful vehicles to rescue those who were 'powerless' (inc the fact that those who were strong enough to shovel had no shovel; also, inc the fact, in some cases, that even those who had a shovel were too old or already too tired to shovel any more:-) imo, 'salvation' like this is a power question--who has the power to rescue you(?) in theological terms, sinners don't--and if you don't want the spiritual help from the sinless One, or, would rather try to get outa the ditch yourself, that still doesn't mean that you have the power of 'salvation', of 'saving' yourself any more than you could dig yourself out of the snow banked ditch (above) in this regard, again, imo, the law is useless--it's like the police coming along and writin' you an expensive ticket for gettin' stuck on his sacred street [whereas the 'savior', as above, defies the police, would even graciously pay the ticket for you---meanwhile, though, hooks you up with his own 'hummer'--one heck of a (salvific) snow machine:-)] ftr, the foregoing analogy seems like very preachable stuff by (e.g.) DrGT and Peter and me, who are not complicating the strait forward teaching of the Bible with a Hegalian dialectic like DavidM (and French Pres. Chirac) and others prefer to do ['dialectic', which one can demo from recent post/s, is DavidM's 'logical' method, rooted in Platonic and subsequent Judaistic thought (e.g., Hegel is Jewish) applied to biblical thought)]
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Glenn and Perry: Salvation does come through faith. We all know that. Where we have a problem is coming to a conclusion about what is incuded in a description of faith. We know that it has to include more than simply believing, because as James says, even the devil believes. We know that love is involved, because love covers a multitude of sins. We know repentance is involved , because without repentance there can be no forgiveness. We know obedience is involved because Jesus asked some who claimed to follow Him in word but not in deed, "Why do you call me Lord, when you do not do as I tell you to do?" The implication being that He was not their Lord, because they did not obey. We know that He must increase and we must decrease, and we know that if we have no works, then we have no faith. We cannot grab one verse out of God's word and ignore the thousands of other verses that give us the whole picture. Blessings, Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:19:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.Perry>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers>Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:18:35 EST>>Gal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when he>goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the >law.>Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day>Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult.>>The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away >plain>Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law.>> > If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS> > FINISHED"!> > How much more dows it take?> >> > Terry> >>_Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
There is no need to show you any Bible. You explain away the Bible with humanistic reasoning. Your mind is made up so why confuse you with the truth? You re blinded because of easy believism. If you try to save yourself, David, you will go straight to hell. The verse about "save yourself". Please, that is not worth answering. This leads me to doubt your sincerity when you bring up this. Surely, you know better, unless it is part of your blindness. There are definitely two different Davidms. you have a reference that somehow does away with this teaching of Christ? Glenn offered John 3:16, but nothing in this passage supports anything other than faith is what saves us, and we all agree with that.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
WRONG. IT DOES NOT COME FROM INSTANT BELIEVISM. David, you are as blinded when it comes to this as any person I have ever met. You can't see beyond easy believism to ANYTHING. Because of this you are taken in (deceived) by a works salvation. I think if you are honest with examining where you got your viewpoint here, you will see that it came not from studying the Bible, but from listening to popular Christian preachers. It comes from the instant salvation, easy believism kind of Christianity that does not tell believers to count the cost to see whether or not they can pay the price it will take to follow Christ.
RE: [TruthTalk] List Guidelines
Glenn wrote: > David, you are hard hearded. You have > refused to listen to me. What have I refused to listen to you about? Glenn wrote: > you are no longer standing up for Protestant Bibilical > views as you did years ago. What Protestant Biblical views did I stand up for years ago that I do not stand up for now? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Perry wrote: > Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand > that salvation comes through faith, "not of works, > lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) Amen. I believe this too. Perry wrote: > There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. > It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. > To God be the glory for his endless mercy and > grace. Ask yourself where you heard this kind of teaching? I'm talking about the way you worded your commentary. Does the Bible teach this anywhere? What teaching in the Bible supports this idea of "NOTHING WE CAN DO" to save ourselves? (I'm serious... this is not a rhetorical question... please give me references.) Didn't Peter preach, "save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40)? What good does it do to tell people to save themselves if there is nothing they can do? I think if you are honest with examining where you got your viewpoint here, you will see that it came not from studying the Bible, but from listening to popular Christian preachers. It comes from the instant salvation, easy believism kind of Christianity that does not tell believers to count the cost to see whether or not they can pay the price it will take to follow Christ. When Jesus was asked how to obtain eternal life, did he say something like, "there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself and inherit eternal life. All you can do is pray this prayer and trust God to save you. There is nothing you can do, it is all by grace alone and faith alone." No, what Jesus taught was, "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mat. 19:17). This is a teaching of Christ that I reference for you that I think should be considered. Do you have a reference that somehow does away with this teaching of Christ? Glenn offered John 3:16, but nothing in this passage supports anything other than faith is what saves us, and we all agree with that. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Much learning can make a person "mad". David has become better and better at explaining away salvation by grace through faith. Common Sense is greatly lacking in these detailed humanistic explanations. Surely, Paul (as in Eph. 3:4 and John 20:31 for a quick example) wrote so as to be understood. There is virtue in "common sense" Bible reading. Alexander Campbell one said, "When I at last took the naked text and read it with common sense, the Bible became a new book to me". "We must come within understanding distance" -- which means the heart as well as the head is involved in making sense of the Bible. ALL SCRIPTURE MUST BE INTERPRETED IN REFERENCE TO THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST! To put it another way, our Lord is Himself the interpreter of Scripture. 7th Day Adventist and their sympathizers will take away your freedom in Christ if you allow them. Gal. 5:1. TT over the years has become a place where Biblcial truth is give "lip" talk but not understood even in simple salvation. A true Bible believer is not welcome on TT even thought TT claims otherwise. I am also interested in hearing your answer to the second question I asked: "If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant?" Perry
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace. Perry From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:18:35 EST Gal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when he goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the law. Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult. The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away plain Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law. > If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS > FINISHED"! > How much more dows it take? > > Terry > _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
I am also interested in hearing your answer to the second question I asked: "If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant?" Perry From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 07:03:23 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that nothing will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesus fulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came to fulfil? Perry If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS FINISHED ! How much more dows it take? Terry _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Gal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when he goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the law. Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult. The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away plain Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law. If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS FINISHED"! How much more dows it take? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Remember the Sun's Day, to keep it holy
LOL It seems to me to you are telling a falsehood here. I am oddball out here. I stand for savlation by grace and not just by lib service. A Christian is a weirdo on TT. I’m sure we will all miss you, too, Glenn! Izzy
[TruthTalk] Jehovah
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/
Greetings in the
Matchless Name of YahShua !!
Yehudah ('Judah' /
Judaea) went into Babylonian captivity circa the 7th century B.C. due to their
stiffnecked, rebellious disobedience.
Babylon was highly organized in
their laws and practices (religious and otherwise) with very fine details.
'Judah' came to admire this and appropriated Babylonian aspects into their
religious practices after leaving captivity. This brought forth
'Judah'-ism i.e. 'Judaism'.
Father Abraham never knew
'Judaism'. Neither did Moses, King David, or any other pre-captivity
'believers'.
'Judaism' came into existence AFTER
Babylonian captivity and was ALWAYS a false religion.
One of the things that Judaism
picked up from Babylon was the "ineffable name" doctrine.
The Babylonians only allowed
"special" people to speak the names of the highest deities because such names
were too "special" to be spoken by just anybody. Judaism appropriated this
into their doctrine. Only the high priest would utter The Name of YHVH and ONLY on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) IN
PRIVATE in the most holy place separate and apart from any others to
hear.
Scripture COMMANDS the use of The
Name, and in fact notes that it is to be declared SPECIFICALLY among even the
heathen.
To this day Jews say 'ha Shem' when
reading The Name of YHVH in Scripture.
The Hebrew words 'ha Shem' means literally 'The Name'.
Books of Judaism (called 'talmudic')
instruct NOT to give truth to Gentiles. They even go so far as to command
that lies be told to Gentiles if they ask questions.
The 1991 Encyclopaedia Brittanica
notes that the Masoretes who preserved Old Testament Scriptures CHANGED the
vowel markers for YHVH between the 6th and
10th ceturies A.D. They took the vowels of the Hebrew word 'Eloah'
which translates into English as 'God' and placed them within YHVH to come up with YeHoVaH -- an entirely made up word.
This was done in order to "hide" the pronunciation.
Hebrew is a very specific
language. Words -- even names -- have meanings from letter combinations
and depending upon how and where languages are used and combined. For
instance, the letter 'Y' at the end of a word can have a particular use and
meaning. However, the letter 'Y' becomes neutral at the beginning of
a word and has no meaning by itself. It attains meaning by combining with
another letter or letters. 'Y' has no meaning by itself at the beginning
of a word but 'hovah' does.
The meaning of 'hovah' is 'mischievous'
... 'calamitous' ... 'ruinous'. When one calls out 'Yehovah' /
'Jehovah' they are calling out 'mischievous' ... 'calamitous' ...
'ruinous'.
The only question is whether this
change was made by Masoretes as unwitting dupes of the devil (YHVH rebuke him) -- see John 8:44 -- or whether they
full well knew the BLASPHEMY they had created for others to unknowingly
repeat.
Shabbat Shalom,
Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
Chris
Re: [TruthTalk] Conversion is NOT enough!
These 7th Day Cultists don't answer questions, they simply abuse Scripture. The Devil quoted Scripture when he tempted Jesus. I REPEAT, THE DEVIL QUOTED SCRIPTURE WHEN HE TEMPTED JESUS. There is a parallel here. [EMAIL PROTECTED] queried ... are you both 'children of jesus'? how so? g The SAVIOUR said ... "Except ye be converted AND become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) Shabbat Shalom,
RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that nothing will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesus fulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came to fulfil?PerryIf Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS FINISHED"! How much more dows it take? Terry IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [TruthTalk] List Guidelines
David, you are hard hearded. You have refused to listen to me. I have NEVER said I want only Protestant views allowed. I have said, you are no longer standing up for Protestant Bibilical views as you did years ago. A Christian is an odd ball on TT. A Christian is an outcast on TT. Glenn, surely one of them might suit your desire for a discussion forum where only orthodox Protestant views are allowed.
[TruthTalk] List Guidelines
Dear TruthTalk members: I want to make it perfectly clear that TruthTalk is NOT a Christian list. TruthTalk is a list for talking about Truth, and we welcome people here of all religions as well as those with no religion. We have only one rule on TruthTalk, and that is that there should be no ad hominem attacks. The reason for this rule is not because ad hominem arguments are sinful, but rather because in this kind of forum, they simply hinder fruitful discussion rather than help it. Glenn has been violating the TruthTalk rule recently in numerous ways. For example, Glenn wrote the following: JESUS DOES AND HE CONDEMNED TO AN EVERLASTING HELL FIRE THE PHARISEES. I LIKE JESUS, SAY TO YOU, "YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL". I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THROUGH THE POWER OF HIS SHED BLOOD ON CALVARY FOR ATTACKING JACK VAN IMPE. Of course this is typical of people who's father is the Devil. You're the only person who is right. JEHOVAH IS NOT THE NAME OF GOD??? GO TO HELL QUIETLY -- In another post yesterday, he wrote: YOU ARE SICK! YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL. In another post yesterday, Glenn wrote: You are sick too Izzy. Please refrain from making personal attacks on this list. If you disagree with someone, put some effort toward explaining the basis of your disagreement, or simply remain quiet. If you don't agree with the list concept of allowing people with divergent views to discuss their perception of Truth from whatever paradigm or worldview they desire, then you are free to leave the list or lurk only. You will not change what TruthTalk is about by being belligerent toward other list members. If you want a Christian list, or a Protestant list, where only views are allowed that come from the Protestant perspective, then you may start your own list at http://groups.yahoo.com or you may search their many lists to find one that suits you. I searched on the word "Protestant" on this site and found that 165 email lists matched this search criteria. Glenn, surely one of them might suit your desire for a discussion forum where only orthodox Protestant views are allowed. If you feel that some kind of personal rebuke is in order, please try to convey that rebuke in a way that will foster communication. For example, instead of simply saying, "YOU ARE SICK!" try saying, "It seems to me that you are sick, because ..." The idea of this forum is not to satisfy your desire to inflict pain or humility upon another person, but to communicate the rationale behind the viewpoints you hold. Expect your thinking to be challenged in return. I realize that we are living in wartime and that the hearts of many are being stirred. The U.S. and other countries are bombing Iraq. People are in the streets of the U.S. and other countries protesting the war with methods designed to stop the normal activity of business. A shift in world powers is at hand and the Antichrist spirit is being ushered in for the last days, as it is written: 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Therefore, I understand the change in behavior of many people, but if TruthTalk will continue, we need to understand and comply with its stated goals. Not only does this list welcome those who are not Protestant and the expression of views that are not Protestant, we welcome the expression of non-Christian views and even Anti-Christ views. TruthTalk is not a Christian list or a Christian propaganda machine or a club of any sort. It is a list where people who think differently can express what they think and why they think what they think, that others might examine their views, challenge these views, and study further on the subjects being raised. If you want filtered and censored views that will only express Truth and no falsehood at all, then TruthTalk is not the kind of list that you should be part of. TruthTalk is non-sectarian and open to anyone who wishes to express what they perceive to be truth, as long as they do not attack other list members with personal insults that hinder dialogue. Please consider this reminder of our list guidelines and if necessary, modify your behavior appropriately to abide by the no ad hominem argument rule. Thank you. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTEC
[TruthTalk] Conversion is NOT enough!
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! [EMAIL PROTECTED] queried ... are you both 'children of jesus'? how so? g The SAVIOUR said ... "Except ye be converted AND become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) Shabbat Shalom, c
RE: [TruthTalk] Remember the Sun's Day, to keep it holy
I’m sure we will all miss you, too, Glenn! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 11:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Remember the Sun's Day, to keep it holy The Son's day is Sunday. The first day of the week. It Jesus' day because he arose from the dead on Sunday. Marlin a child of Jesus? He is a child of Saturday worship among other swine doctrine. I'm leaving again, as I can't put up with the pig smell on TT. It goes from the top to the bottom. And the American military have all the gas masks. 99% of the people of TT think just like the Church of Christ thinkers. are you both 'children of jesus'? how so? g
