Re: (OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???

[PC Leung]

very good article on this topic.
http://java.oreilly.com/news/farley_0800.html


 On 7/7/05, Emmanouil Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> John Henry Xu wrote:
> 
> >Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write 
> getters and setters manually.
> >
> >Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write 
> something machine can produce perfectly to you.
> >
> 
> The choice of a methodology like Model Driven development is totally
> independent with the framework you use. I use struts but never write a
> single form or action for search or CRUD operations.
> 
> Just my 0.2.
> 
> Manos
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
>

Re: (OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Emmanouil Batsis]

John Henry Xu wrote:

Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write getters and setters manually. 


Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write something 
machine can produce perfectly to you.



The choice of a methodology like Model Driven development is totally 
independent with the framework you use. I use struts but never write a 
single form or action for search or CRUD operations.


Just my 0.2.

Manos

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(OT) Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Hi Dakota Jack, very funny.

I think someone had suggested to put this thread to OT.

BTW, I don't want spend too much time on this and I had said enough about you 
in my emails.

Now I can focus on my job and be more productive by not having to write getters 
and setters manually. 

Only when I wrote million line codes I realized how insane to write something 
machine can produce perfectly to you. That's the difference between us. 

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  


  - Original Message -
  From: "Dakota Jack"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:54:18 -0700

  >
  > Okay, okay, Reumann. Do you want to be right or do you want to be
  > loving? ///;-) Xu really is not all that atuned to computer stuff,
  > even though he is a computer journalist, so you might take him on
  as
  > your grasshopper? ///;-)
  >
  > On 7/5/05, Rick Reumann wrote:
  > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:
  > >
  > > > Is writting
  > > > lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in
  real
  > > > projects?
  > >
  > > You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I
  said any
  > > editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you
  think
  > > Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take
  offense
  > > to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you
  actually
  > > coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do
  have
  > > get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if
  I was
  > > coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main
  thrust
  > > here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly
  that's
  > > such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you
  are
  > > harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts
  because
  > > of this statement:
  > >
  > > "My experience was Struts have more
  > > codes and configuration files than straight forward
  JSP+Javabean+taglibs
  > > approach that was done before."
  > >
  > > This tells me either:
  > >
  > > A) You haven't used Struts much
  > >
  > > OR
  > >
  > > C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have
  to be
  > > quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as
  > > requirements change.
  > >
  > > I make this claim because Struts (and other web application
  frameworks)
  > > provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write
  YOURSELF
  > > if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines
  mean more
  > > time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are
  costing your
  > > company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting
  some
  > > web framework for your developers to start using.
  > >
  > > I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but
  here
  > > are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can
  answer from
  > > 'your experience'...
  > >
  > > Where do your forms submit to?
  > >
  > > How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the
  request
  > > is sent?
  > >
  > > When you need to change the flow of the application (what page
  forwards
  > > to where) how do you make this change?
  > >
  > > How do you handle server side validation problems and display
  messages
  > > to the user about these server side problems?
  > >
  > > If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I
  can
  > > take your SAME application, and not change any of your business
  logic,
  > > and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from
  your
  > > perspective, written in LESS lines.
  > >
  > > I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of
  your web
  > > applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base.
  Please do
  > > it. Pretty please.
  > >
  > > I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument'
  with so
  > > many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why
  use
  > > (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things
  and end
  > > up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is
  I see
  > > their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web
  > >

Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

Okay, okay, Reumann.  Do you want to be right or do you want to be
loving?  ///;-)  Xu really is not all that atuned to computer stuff,
even though he is a computer journalist, so you might take him on as
your grasshopper?  ///;-)

On 7/5/05, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:
> 
> > Is writting
> > lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
> > projects?
> 
> You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any
> editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think
> Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense
> to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually
> coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have
> get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was
> coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust
> here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's
> such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are
> harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because
> of this statement:
> 
> "My experience was Struts have more
> codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
> approach that was done before."
> 
> This tells me either:
> 
> A) You haven't used Struts much
> 
> OR
> 
> C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be
> quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as
> requirements change.
> 
> I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks)
> provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF
> if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more
> time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your
> company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some
> web framework for your developers to start using.
> 
> I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here
> are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from
> 'your experience'...
> 
> Where do your forms submit to?
> 
> How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request
> is sent?
> 
> When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards
> to where) how do you make this change?
> 
> How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages
> to the user about these server side problems?
> 
> If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can
> take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic,
> and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your
> perspective, written in LESS lines.
> 
> I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web
> applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do
> it. Pretty please.
> 
> I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so
> many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why use
> (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end
> up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is I see
> their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web
> framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people
> don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with.
> 
> Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of
> ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF
> seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve
> looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework
> seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it...
> the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too
> comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web
> app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes,
> Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to
> any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take
> your "JSP+Javabean+taglibs only" application it will be much more
> difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you
> are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your
> home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run).
> 
> --
> Rick
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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RE: Struts vs .NET???

[Michel Van Asten]

Hi,

I jump in the middle of this debate (religion war ?). 
I dont want to add my own opinion... who care ? But as many pragmatic 
developper we need to follow the requirements of our customers,
sometimes .Net, java (struts, jsf,...), VB... 
So one of our big challenge is capability to maintain ( not a migration !!!) 
the code of some libraries in both plattform.
I should be interrested to have some advice (design, tools,...), experience

Regards,

Michel Van Asten
Projections sa
 


-Message d'origine-
De : Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Envoyé : mardi 5 juillet 2005 22:24
À : Struts Users Mailing List
Objet : Re: Struts vs .NET???


John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:

> Is writting
> lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
> projects?

You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any 
editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think 
Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense 
to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually 
coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have 
get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was 
coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust 
here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's 
such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are 
harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because 
of this statement:

"My experience was Struts have more
codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
approach that was done before."

This tells me either:

A) You haven't used Struts much

OR

C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be 
quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as 
requirements change.

I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) 
provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF 
if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more 
time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your 
company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some 
web framework for your developers to start using.

I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here 
are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 
'your experience'...

Where do your forms submit to?

How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request 
is sent?

When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards 
to where) how do you make this change?

How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages 
to the user about these server side problems?

If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can 
take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, 
and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your 
perspective, written in LESS lines.

I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web 
applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do 
it. Pretty please.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so 
many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why use 
(insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end 
up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is I see 
their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web 
framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people 
don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with.

Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of 
ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF 
seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve 
looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework 
seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... 
the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too 
comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web 
app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, 
Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to 
any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take 
your "JSP+Javabean+taglibs only" application it will be much more 
difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you 
are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your 
home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run).

-- 
Rick

-

Re: [OT] some props John/Jack (WAS) Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Hi Rick,

I am very happy you like my articles.

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  


  - Original Message -
  From: "Rick Reumann"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: [OT] some props John/Jack (WAS) Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:42:10 -0400

  >
  > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 9:50 PM:
  >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  >
  > Hey cool site! John/Jack(?) I really like the way the articles are
  > presented. I love clear step by step approaches! The one on web
  > services looks great.
  >
  > -- Rick
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

-- 
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[OT] some props John/Jack (WAS) Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann]

John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 9:50 PM:


Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com


Hey cool site! John/Jack(?) I really like the way the articles are 
presented. I love clear step by step approaches! The one on web services 
looks great.


--
Rick

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[OT] "Show me the money..I mean Lines" WAS Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann]

Replying changing the subject so people don't think this is a struts vs 
.net debate... I'm still curious what John Henry is talking about with 
this GUI and less lines of code concept.. my comments below...



John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:


Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
projects?





Rick Reumann reply:

You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any 
editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think 
Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense 
to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually 
coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have 
get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was 
coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust 
here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's 
such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are 
harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because 
of this statement:


"My experience was Struts have more
codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
approach that was done before."

This tells me either:

A) You haven't used Struts much

OR

C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be 
quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as 
requirements change.


I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) 
provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF 
if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more 
time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your 
company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some 
web framework for your developers to start using.


I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here 
are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 
'your experience'...


Where do your forms submit to?

How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request 
is sent?


When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards 
to where) how do you make this change?


How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages 
to the user about these server side problems?


If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can 
take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, 
and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your 
perspective, written in LESS lines.


I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web 
applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do 
it. Pretty please.


I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so 
many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why use 
(insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end 
up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is I see 
their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web 
framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people 
don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with.


Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of 
ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF 
seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve 
looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework 
seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... 
the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too 
comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web 
app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, 
Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to 
any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take 
your "JSP+Javabean+taglibs only" application it will be much more 
difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you 
are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your 
home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run).





--
Rick

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann]

John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:


Is writting
lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
projects?


You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any 
editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think 
Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense 
to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually 
coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have 
get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was 
coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust 
here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's 
such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are 
harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because 
of this statement:


"My experience was Struts have more
codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
approach that was done before."

This tells me either:

A) You haven't used Struts much

OR

C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be 
quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as 
requirements change.


I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) 
provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF 
if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more 
time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your 
company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some 
web framework for your developers to start using.


I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here 
are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 
'your experience'...


Where do your forms submit to?

How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request 
is sent?


When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards 
to where) how do you make this change?


How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages 
to the user about these server side problems?


If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can 
take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, 
and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your 
perspective, written in LESS lines.


I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web 
applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do 
it. Pretty please.


I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so 
many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why use 
(insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end 
up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is I see 
their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web 
framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people 
don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with.


Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of 
ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF 
seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve 
looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework 
seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... 
the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too 
comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web 
app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, 
Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to 
any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take 
your "JSP+Javabean+taglibs only" application it will be much more 
difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you 
are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your 
home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run).


--
Rick

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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann]

Dave Newton wrote the following on 7/2/2005 4:06 PM:

Gregory Seidman wrote:


On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
} Heh, } } I hate this kind of discussion...
} } Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world...
} } I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method 
name,
} with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code 
where this

} method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours?

A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's
  referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack
  of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal
  design).

B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a
  minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly
  rare operation (see A).

} leon
--Greg
 


Ooo, I'll hafta disagree on both of these.

A) Renaming something to better describe its function isn't a crime or 
bad design; sometimes it's just a by-product of an iterative design 
process. Iterative design is pretty much the norm for quick turnaround 
projects, especially web-based, because programmers have to work at 
internet speed, not a sane "I get to design everything first" speed. I'm 
pretty design-oriented, and reasonably good at it to boot, but I might 
rename something 2-3x before I'm done with it, for various reasons. 
These days I can do that trivially; in older days I might not have 
bothered, and my recent code is the better for it.


+1 Which is why I think a good refactoring IDE is very useful (as do 
many others) Not trying to continue the IDE wars, simply stating that 
Greg you are wrong if you think that 'refactoring' means you are poor 
designer.


B) It's WAY quicker and, more importantly, _safer_, to rename using an 
IDE that knows about the underlying code than with sed/etc.


+1
No way this can be done more quickly or more *safely* using gawk,squak 
or whatever and typing -frg fsh+1000 "*.dfjkj" %^%


As a side note, just noticed IDEA had a cool prompt when I was 
refactoring a class name. Initially the name of the class was FooBarVO 
and I realized I didn't want to have it named VO.. just want it FooBar. 
Well the neat thing is FooBarVO extended BaseVO, and I got prompted if 
not only did I want to change the superclass name but also all the other 
subclass named WhateverVO.. it was smart enough to figure out that I 
probably wanted to drop all the 'VO's off the subclass names.


Another factor that I know saves time using an IDE is .Completion. I 
don't care how well you know the API of the project you are working on, 
being able to type someInstance.(<--dot) and having the possible method 
names now pop up is a HUGE time saver - you simply can't deny it.


Again I'm not huge fan of IDEs that get in your way, and if not for 
.(dot) completion and refactoring, I don't see a 'tremendous' value for 
them.


A good text editor is a must though and for those that care, you can set 
up IDEA to use vim commands which is pretty cool. (I happen to like 
jEdit for most of my work, although the latest UltraEdit looks really 
nice and since I'm back on Windows I might shell out the small money for 
that product since I really liked it back when I used to use it over 
five years ago).


--
Rick

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann]

Sorry was away from the list all weekend... some questions below...

John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/1/2005 7:24 PM:

Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text
editor.

My consideation is based on the cost of software development.

Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your
code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines
(remember those setters and getters and configuration files.)


You're trying to tell me that an app built using some GUI tool (I guess 
by GUI tool you mean drag-and-drop?) is going to end up with 1/3 less 
lines of code? Besides it being probably the exact opposite, I'm not 
exactly sure what you are stating?




Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is
1.5 times than before.


Again, I'm confused. Explain to me why it would take 1.5 times as long? 
I could also whip together something super 'fast' that works but takes 
me half the time tham it does now - but good luck maintaing this 
application. If I remember correctly (don't have figures in front of me) 
most of the high costs of applications come in the way of maintaining 
the application - they aren't in the initial upfront costs.


Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those
projects will be 1.5 times as before.


Lets just assume that you could create an application faster using a 
WYSWIG tool. Again I ask you what is the long term cost of this 
applicaiton? What happens when requirements change later and the 
developers have to alter it? They probably scratch their heads and have 
no idea how to change it because they only understand 'drag and drop" 
and the UI is too complex to simply change with drag and drop GUI tools.




Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now
you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.

So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those
5 million dollars.


What are these 'repeatable codes' you are talking about? What does this 
sentence mean: "So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary 
to cut those 5 million dollars." Could you give me an example of what 
that means (from code). I'm totally lost here.


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Rick

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Gregory Seidman]

On Mon, Jul 04, 2005 at 03:15:38PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote:
} I didn't ask how Mono runs on Apple, did I?

No, you asked how C# runs on Apple. The only .NET runtime and C# compiler
than I know of that supports MacOS X (which is what I believe you mean by
"Apple") is Mono. Therefore, C# runs on Apple under Mono, which is the
answer I gave. Were you fishing for a different answer?

--Greg

} On 7/3/05, Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
} > On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:34:44PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote:
} > } And how does C# run on Apple?  LOL
} > 
} > See http://www.mono-project.com/
} > 
} > --Greg
[...]

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

I didn't ask how Mono runs on Apple, did I?

On 7/3/05, Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:34:44PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote:
> } And how does C# run on Apple?  LOL
> 
> See http://www.mono-project.com/
> 
> --Greg
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
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~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Dakota Jack]

Actually, this did not help me at all.  I understand that differences,
etc.  I just wondered what you thought, since I thought your
conclusions were contrary to the facts.

On 7/3/05, Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:48:37PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote:
> } What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts?  What sort
> } of problem are you talking about/
> 
> My assessment is based on my own development experience with both, plus
> lurking on this list for a few years. I will reiterate that I am not
> interested in converting Java/Struts developers to C#/.NET developers; I
> want Java and Struts to be the best they can be, and that knowing the
> competition is a step toward that.
> 
> I posted something fairly in-depth about the advantages of C#-the-language
> over Java-the-language. Check the archives for the last couple of days. A
> few of those advantages have to do with the .NET runtime itself (in
> particular, 1) properties being first-class reflectable objects, just like
> methods and members, rather than derived from the JavaBeans get/set naming
> convention, and 2) events and delegate (method pointer) types being
> first-class reflectable objects rather than using interfaces for handlers).
> For now, Java has the advantages of generics and anonymous inner classes
> over C#, but the next version of C# (due out this year, and what I'm
> hearing about the betas leads me to believe that it will actually be out
> this year) supports both of those and simplifies a few other common idioms
> (iteration, in particular).
> 
> I have not done any comparison of .NET vs. Java performance, nor have I
> compared their garbage collection strategies or threading models. They seem
> to be pretty similar, and they can be expected to maintain very similar
> performance profiles since the optimization techniques for such things are
> old in academia and well-published. Their different choices of performance
> tradeoffs may eventually effect their usefulness for particular purposes,
> at which point it may be appropriate to choose one or the other based on
> one's specific application.
> 
> The APIs (system libraries and extension libraries) considered part of
> either Java or .NET are pretty similar. Java has a much larger set of
> third-party free libraries (in good part thanks to Apache's Jakarta
> project), but many of those are being ported to .NET. On the other hand,
> there are many commercially-licensed components for .NET, and there are
> likely to be more, simply because it is in the Microsoft world. I don't
> have exact (or meaningful) figures on this, so take it with a grain of
> salt. Anecdotally, I can say that in a previous project I sought a
> particular ASP.NET control and found dozens of candidates, commercial and
> otherwise, and the one that best suited our application was commercial. (We
> bought it, we used it, their tech support was excellent (including
> accepting patches from me), and it did what we needed.)
> 
> Comparing JSP and Struts to ASP.NET turns up sharp corners in both. It's
> very easy to encapsulate functionality in a custom tag in ASP.NET, much
> harder to do so for JSP. Struts abstracts away the specifics of the
> generated HTML (both outgoing HTML and incoming form data), which supports
> the MVC model; ASP.NET requires a bit more hoop-jumping to do so.
> Validation, both server-side and client-side, is far easier in ASP.NET than
> with Struts. ASP.NET has almost no configuration required other than the
> .aspx/.ascx (equivalent to .jsp) files themselves, whereas Struts requires
> a configuration file that grows increasingly complicated as the site grows
> larger (though, to its credit, it does centralize the transition graph of
> the site). Neither Struts nor ASP.NET cares much about business objects,
> but both can deal with them just like any other object. Finally, while
> ASP.NET scales well from a single page to an entire site, Struts doesn't
> really shine until you get to at least 5-10 separate forms/pages.
> 
> I hope this is a useful answer to your question.
> 
> --Greg
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:48:37PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote:
} What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts?  What sort
} of problem are you talking about/

My assessment is based on my own development experience with both, plus
lurking on this list for a few years. I will reiterate that I am not
interested in converting Java/Struts developers to C#/.NET developers; I
want Java and Struts to be the best they can be, and that knowing the
competition is a step toward that.

I posted something fairly in-depth about the advantages of C#-the-language
over Java-the-language. Check the archives for the last couple of days. A
few of those advantages have to do with the .NET runtime itself (in
particular, 1) properties being first-class reflectable objects, just like
methods and members, rather than derived from the JavaBeans get/set naming
convention, and 2) events and delegate (method pointer) types being
first-class reflectable objects rather than using interfaces for handlers).
For now, Java has the advantages of generics and anonymous inner classes
over C#, but the next version of C# (due out this year, and what I'm
hearing about the betas leads me to believe that it will actually be out
this year) supports both of those and simplifies a few other common idioms
(iteration, in particular).

I have not done any comparison of .NET vs. Java performance, nor have I
compared their garbage collection strategies or threading models. They seem
to be pretty similar, and they can be expected to maintain very similar
performance profiles since the optimization techniques for such things are
old in academia and well-published. Their different choices of performance
tradeoffs may eventually effect their usefulness for particular purposes,
at which point it may be appropriate to choose one or the other based on
one's specific application.

The APIs (system libraries and extension libraries) considered part of
either Java or .NET are pretty similar. Java has a much larger set of
third-party free libraries (in good part thanks to Apache's Jakarta
project), but many of those are being ported to .NET. On the other hand,
there are many commercially-licensed components for .NET, and there are
likely to be more, simply because it is in the Microsoft world. I don't
have exact (or meaningful) figures on this, so take it with a grain of
salt. Anecdotally, I can say that in a previous project I sought a
particular ASP.NET control and found dozens of candidates, commercial and
otherwise, and the one that best suited our application was commercial. (We
bought it, we used it, their tech support was excellent (including
accepting patches from me), and it did what we needed.)

Comparing JSP and Struts to ASP.NET turns up sharp corners in both. It's
very easy to encapsulate functionality in a custom tag in ASP.NET, much
harder to do so for JSP. Struts abstracts away the specifics of the
generated HTML (both outgoing HTML and incoming form data), which supports
the MVC model; ASP.NET requires a bit more hoop-jumping to do so.
Validation, both server-side and client-side, is far easier in ASP.NET than
with Struts. ASP.NET has almost no configuration required other than the
.aspx/.ascx (equivalent to .jsp) files themselves, whereas Struts requires
a configuration file that grows increasingly complicated as the site grows
larger (though, to its credit, it does centralize the transition graph of
the site). Neither Struts nor ASP.NET cares much about business objects,
but both can deal with them just like any other object. Finally, while
ASP.NET scales well from a single page to an entire site, Struts doesn't
really shine until you get to at least 5-10 separate forms/pages.

I hope this is a useful answer to your question.

--Greg


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 07:56:23PM -0700, netsql wrote:
[...]
} And now this is realy going to piss you off: You can do Apache Struts 
} MVC in C#:
} 
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/struts/sandbox/trunk/overdrive/Nexus/Core/?rev=208875

See, now *that's* a cool idea. I'm afraid the straight code isn't of much
use to me without some examples of how it integrates with ASP.NET, but if
it can integrate as well as it does with JSP, that would be excellent. Note
that I haven't been claiming that struts is dead, nor that it should be; I
have only been encouraging people to take a look at what the competition is
doing better right now. From that perspective, this can't possibly piss me
off. It's actually quite exciting.

} .V
--Greg


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RE: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Lots of links on internet. I asked him to give particular links so we can 
analyze the structure of the site and how many struts were used there. 
The link he gave many are just information about struts. Some are broken links.

Maybe you can tell your struts sites. I don't use .net. and I would be glad to 
see more and more complex sites using struts technologies.   
Unfortunately, some guys who have no real experience just try to complicated 
the discussion by accusing people.

So now I state clearly:

1. I am a java and open source fan. No .net would be used in my real 
applications except web services. amd I think struts is a great framework.

2. I believe many struts classes should be generated by tools, GUI or non GUI, 
in real application, so it would be easier and cheaper for struts application 
development. 

3. I ask those inexperienced programmers to show their sites because they only 
use buzz words and pretended they are experts of struts. 

If you disagree with me, just disagree with me on above three statements.


Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.cppunit.org/article/index.jsp?rclient=0080";>http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com/jobsite/index.jsp?rclient=0080";>http://www.getusjobs.com
 (The largest free job portal in North America)

- Original Message -
From: "Jesse Alexander (KBSA 21)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" 
Subject: RE: Re: Struts vs .NET???
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:44:42 +0200 

> 
> -Original Message-
> . . .
> What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts
> site? Don't give wrong information.
> . . .
> Technology columnist and editor
> -/Original Message -
> 
> No wonder I have such a low consideration for technology columns and their
> writers...
> 
> He just passed you a link where you can look up a lot of links to sites
> using struts. That's quite a bit more intelligent than copying all the
> information already stored in a publicily available place.
> 
> Sort of: like .net vs Struts:
> Struts invites you not to copy, but rather use the indirection
> .Net invites you to copy
> 
> Alexander
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.cppunit.org/article/index.jsp?rclient=0080";>http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com/jobsite/index.jsp?rclient=0080";>http://www.getusjobs.com
 (The largest free job portal in North America)


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 11:34:44PM -0700, Dakota Jack wrote:
} And how does C# run on Apple?  LOL

See http://www.mono-project.com/

--Greg


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Pedro Salgado]

2 more Struts sites to add to the list
(http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsWebLinks):

http://www.iberia.com/
https://caixadirecta.cgd.pt/ (bank)

Of course I cannot be sure but it sure seems like it :)

PS

On 03/07/2005 09:44, "Jesse Alexander (KBSA 21)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -Original Message-
> . . .
> What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts
> site? Don't give wrong information.
> . . .
> Technology columnist and editor
> -/Original Message -
> 
> No wonder I have such a low consideration for technology columns and their
> writers...
> 
> He just passed you a link where you can look up a lot of links to sites
> using struts. That's quite a bit more intelligent than copying all the
> information already stored in a publicily available place.
> 
> Sort of: like .net vs Struts:
> Struts invites you not to copy, but rather use the indirection
> .Net invites you to copy
> 
> Alexander
> 
> -
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RE: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Jesse Alexander (KBSA 21)]

-Original Message-
. . .
What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts
site? Don't give wrong information.
. . .
Technology columnist and editor
-/Original Message -

No wonder I have such a low consideration for technology columns and their
writers...

He just passed you a link where you can look up a lot of links to sites
using struts. That's quite a bit more intelligent than copying all the
information already stored in a publicily available place.

Sort of: like .net vs Struts:
Struts invites you not to copy, but rather use the indirection
.Net invites you to copy 

Alexander

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Dakota Jack]

What is your basis for your assessment of .NET and Struts?  What sort
of problem are you talking about/

On 7/2/05, Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:32:00AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> } Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100
> } Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ?
> } I'd be really interested :-)
> 
> I don't know that anyone keeps a list around, but this is a foolish
> challenge to give without checking Google:
> 
>  1) www.donotcall.gov
>  2) www.gop.com
>  3) www.us.playstation.com
>  4) www.computerjobs.com
>  5) www.xanga.com
>  6) asp.usatoday.com
>  7) online.firstusa.com
>  8) www.bankone.com
>  9) www.careerbuilder.com
> 10) finance.lycos.com
> 
> Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get.
> They are, however, pretty popular. That said, it matters very little how
> many sites are successfully using it. I only know of one successfully
> deployed LISP-based site, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent
> technology (see http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html).
> 
> If it's a matter of being able to find people to maintain the software in
> the future, you are almost always better off choosing Microsoft
> technologies, though both Java and C++ are pretty strong in that area as
> well. Struts? Maybe not so much. JSF? Still new, which makes it risky.
> 
> In any case, I'm not trying to post flamebait here, nor do I wish to engage
> in an argument. I would like Java and J2EE/JSF/Struts/API of the month to
> be better than any Microsoft offering. I will have to learn more about JSF,
> since it seems to be getting there. I can say that Java/JSP/Struts falls
> short of C#/.NET/ASP.NET at this time. Those of you who have never tried
> doing anything with C# and ASP.NET should try it out, just to know the
> competition and to gain some perspective on the sharp corners of what you
> are currently using that you have grown too used to for them to register as
> worth fixing.
> 
> } Regards
> } Leon
> --Greg
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
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~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

No, Xu go first!  LOL

On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dakota Jack,
> 
> Do you always accuse people don't understand framework if they don't
> agree with you?
> 
> You need evidence to back up your claims. Show us some large struts web
> sites you had/have worked on so we can discuss them and
> technologies according to your claims.
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> 
> 
>   - Original Message -
>   From: "Dakota Jack"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 05:28:02 -0700
> 
>   >
>   > You only have this "experience" because you clearly do not even see
>   > what te framework does for you. If you don't see that, you see
>   > nothing.
>   >
>   > On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
>   > > > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have
>   to code
>   > > > the framework.
>   > >
>   > > That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have
>   more
>   > > codes and configuration files than straight forward
>   JSP+Javabean+taglibs
>   > > approach that was done before.
>   > >
>   > > And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate
>   > > comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email).
>   > >
>   > > Jack H. Xu
>   > > Technology columnist and editor
>   > >
>   > > http://www.usanalyst.com
>   > >
>   > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
>   America)
>   > >
>   > > - Original Message -
>   > > From: "Dakota Jack"
>   > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   > > Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   > > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700
>   > >
>   > > >
>   > > > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have
>   to
>   > > code
>   > > > the framework.
>   > > >
>   > > > On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
>   > > > > Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very
>   basic
>   > > text editor.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > My consideation is based on the cost of software development.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve:
>   before
>   > > > > your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500
>   lines
>   > > > > (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.)
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your
>   > > > > project is 1.5 times than before.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish
>   > > > > those projects will be 1.5 times as before.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a
>   year,
>   > > > > now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to
>   cut
>   > > > > those 5 million dollars.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Jack H. Xu
>   > > > > Technology columnist and editor
>   > > > >
>   > > > > http://www.usanalyst.com
>   > > > >
>   > > > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in
>   North
>   > > America)
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > - Original Message -
>   > > > > From: "Rick Reumann"
>   > > > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   > > > > Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   > > > > Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
>   > > > >
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of
>   it.
>   > > And
>   > > > > in
>   > > > > > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop
>   struts
>   > > > > > > applicati

Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

And how does C# run on Apple?  LOL

On 7/2/05, Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 04:41:38AM -0700, Nitish Kumar wrote:
> } With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of
> } .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof.
> } Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and
> } spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes
> } any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer.
> 
> You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java, IDE
> notwithstanding. The language itself is more convenient, in that common
> idioms require fewer lines of code. Sure, you can tell me that Eclipse or
> whatnot takes the drudgery out of getters and setters, but I can tell you
> that the C# language itself avoids that drudgery. You can also tell me that
> there are Java tools to make the unpleasant task of developing a JSP tag
> easier, but I can tell you that C# and ASP.NET make encapsulating
> functionality in custom tags comfortable and easy. Furthermore, it is at
> least three times easier (i.e. takes 1/3 the lines of code) to express
> event handling in C# than in Java. C# has other advantages as well (I'm
> particularly excited about the coming C# improvements, which include a very
> nice way of expressing iteration), but those three are sufficient basis for
> the points below.
> 
> If you are an idiot, you can produce crappy code that may actually work.
> This is, indeed, more likely using Visual Studio (though I'd claim the days
> of it being truly easy were over when VB6 went away) than in Java.
> Ultimately, however, if you want solid, dependable, maintainable, scalable
> software then you need good software engineering, and no IDE or language
> will change that. If you have good software engineers, it then becomes a
> concern of how much do they have to do to accomplish the task, which boils
> down to lines of code. (A better software engineer will accomplish the same
> task in fewer lines of code, but there is a lower limit on the lines of
> code required to express any specific functionality.) With C# in
> particular, and ASP.NET to some extent, the number of lines of code
> required (whether or not you count lines generated by your IDE of choice)
> to express any given functionality is generally less than that required to
> do the same thing in Java. This is based on my experience, of course, but
> also based on the specific advantages I listed above; they are common
> idioms, which means that saving a few lines of code in the numerous places
> in your program where you use those idioms adds up.
> 
> } Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote
> } idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I
> } guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :)
> 
> I am not interested in having idiots coding. There are two problems with
> coding by idiots:
> 
> 1) They often become managers (or already were) and can't understand why it
>takes so long for those lazy software engineers to accomplish the tasks
>before them. I mean, after all, when they slapped together that VB app
>in a week it worked great!
> 
> 2) Once the idiots have produced their crappy code, it becomes some
>software engineer's problem to maintain it, make it scalable, etc. and
>it's just unpleasant to deal with crappy code. Even worse is when
>management ties the software engineers' hands and prevents them from
>treating the crap code as a working prototype (i.e. which should now be
>rewritten) and forces them to keep it alive as is.
> 
> Also note that there are huge distinctions between a coder, a programmer,
> and a software engineer. The coder produces (working?) code. The programmer
> can produce working code that accomplishes a medium to large task with some
> eye toward efficiency. The software engineer can produce well thought out,
> working, maintainable, scalable code that provides hooks for potential
> future development. I hate working with coders. Programmers are useful, but
> require guidance.
> 
> } Thanks and Regards,
> } Nitish Kumar
> --Greg
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Mr .V,

Do you know html? You claim you are a programmer?

What makes you think http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy is a struts
site? Don't give wrong information.

As for another link of C#,  I use Linux so I am really only interest in
web services of .net, which I may use. Since I don't want some Empire
control internet, I use free or open source. You can not piss me off
because how wonderful MS products are because I don't use them in
general. Good try.

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: netsql
  To: user@struts.apache.org
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:56:23 -0700

  >
  > John Henry Xu wrote:
  >
  > >
  > > So tell me what does the owner of your company think most
  important?
  > >
  >
  > He is probably thinking how to get rid of ineffective managers.
  > What is your agenda, to come tell us your's is bigger?
  >
  > There are plenty of large Struts sites, if that is what your aim
  was:
  > http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy
  >
  > And now this is realy going to piss you off: You can do Apache
  > Struts MVC in C#:
  >
  
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/struts/sandbox/trunk/overdrive/Nexus/Core/?rev=208875
  >
  >
  >
  > .V
  >
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

John Henry Xu wrote:



So tell me what does  the owner of your company think most important?



He is probably thinking how to get rid of ineffective managers.
What is your agenda, to come tell us your's is bigger?

There are plenty of large Struts sites, if that is what your aim was:
http://wiki.apache.org/struts/PoweredBy

And now this is realy going to piss you off: You can do Apache Struts 
MVC in C#:

http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/struts/sandbox/trunk/overdrive/Nexus/Core/?rev=208875



.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Dave Newton wrote:

> > Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager.
> >
>>
> That's pathetic, and I would NEVER work for somebody with that opinion.

Then you may work either 60 hr/week(paid 40 hr/week) or 0 hr/week(paid 0
hr/week) but not in between.

So tell me what does  the owner of your company think most important?

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  


  - Original Message -
  From: "Dave Newton"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:10:42 -0400

  >
  > John Henry Xu wrote:
  >
  > > I was working on Java until I became a manager.
  > >
  > AH-HA!
  >
  > NOW we know what's going on here.
  >
  > > Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager.
  > >
  > >
  > That's pathetic, and I would NEVER work for somebody with that
  opinion.
  >
  > Dave
  >
  >
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dave Newton]

John Henry Xu wrote:


I was working on Java until I became a manager.


AH-HA!

NOW we know what's going on here.


Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager.
 


That's pathetic, and I would NEVER work for somebody with that opinion.

Dave



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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dave Newton]

Gregory Seidman wrote:


On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
} Heh, 
} 
} I hate this kind of discussion...
} 
} Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world...
} 
} I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method name,

} with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code where this
} method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours?

A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's
  referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack
  of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal
  design).

B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a
  minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly
  rare operation (see A).

} leon
--Greg
 


Ooo, I'll hafta disagree on both of these.

A) Renaming something to better describe its function isn't a crime or 
bad design; sometimes it's just a by-product of an iterative design 
process. Iterative design is pretty much the norm for quick turnaround 
projects, especially web-based, because programmers have to work at 
internet speed, not a sane "I get to design everything first" speed. I'm 
pretty design-oriented, and reasonably good at it to boot, but I might 
rename something 2-3x before I'm done with it, for various reasons. 
These days I can do that trivially; in older days I might not have 
bothered, and my recent code is the better for it.


B) It's WAY quicker and, more importantly, _safer_, to rename using an 
IDE that knows about the underlying code than with sed/etc.


Dave



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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dave Newton]

netsql wrote:

In my shop, GUI tools for Swing or UI, such as VS, are not allowed. 
You must make UI handcoding it. You'll just have to take my word that 
it's *MUCH* more productive to hand code a UI when you are building a 
complex UI.


Usually more performant, too: it's easy to code a slow Swing app.

Dave "Is performant a word?" Newton



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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Martin Gainty]

I was hoping to synchronise the method but I guess the only way to 
accomplish this is to 'lock a block'

You really have a good handle on .NET Threading issues
Now back to our regularly scheduled programme..

Thanks Gregory!

Martin-

- Original Message - 
From: "Gregory Seidman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Martin Gainty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???



On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 10:31:02AM -0400, Martin Gainty wrote:
} Could you elucidate for me how .NET handles thread synchronisation?
} I ran into a situation where someone wanted a .NET App coded up in 3 
days
} which worked ok except I ran into a problem where multiple threads 
were/are

} accessing the same method..my work around was to install a hack which
} turned on a Session variable and a pre-validator function would ensure 
that

} session variable was indeed turned off before executing the method. Does
} .NET have any support for synchronized method access?
} Feel free to contact me offline...as this WAY WAY WAY O/T

C# has shortcut syntax for locking:

class Foo {
 void Bar() {
   lock(this) {
 //do stuff
   }
 }
}

This is actually shorthand for:

class Foo {
 void Bar() {
   System.Threading.Monitor.Enter(this);
   try {
   } finally [
 System.Threading.Monitor.Exit(this);
   }
 }
}

.NET doesn't have synchronized methods like Java, but it has synchronized
blocks (as above) just like Java. For more information, look into the
System.Threading.Monitor class, which provides an implementation of the
standard monitor synchronization primitive. (Google for Hoare monitor
for more on that.)

} Many Thanks,
} Martin-
--Greg
P.S. I took it off-list since it really is offtopic, but I wouldn't mind
if you mentioned to the list that I'd provided the information you
needed.




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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Dakota Jack,

Do you always accuse people don't understand framework if they don't
agree with you?

You need evidence to back up your claims. Show us some large struts web
sites you had/have worked on so we can discuss them and
technologies according to your claims.

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  



  - Original Message -
  From: "Dakota Jack"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 05:28:02 -0700

  >
  > You only have this "experience" because you clearly do not even see
  > what te framework does for you. If you don't see that, you see
  > nothing.
  >
  > On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have
  to code
  > > > the framework.
  > >
  > > That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have
  more
  > > codes and configuration files than straight forward
  JSP+Javabean+taglibs
  > > approach that was done before.
  > >
  > > And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate
  > > comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email).
  > >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >
  > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  > >
  > > - Original Message -
  > > From: "Dakota Jack"
  > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > > Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  > > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700
  > >
  > > >
  > > > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have
  to
  > > code
  > > > the framework.
  > > >
  > > > On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > > > Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very
  basic
  > > text editor.
  > > > >
  > > > > My consideation is based on the cost of software development.
  > > > >
  > > > > Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve:
  before
  > > > > your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500
  lines
  > > > > (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.)
  > > > >
  > > > > Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your
  > > > > project is 1.5 times than before.
  > > > >
  > > > > Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish
  > > > > those projects will be 1.5 times as before.
  > > > >
  > > > > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a
  year,
  > > > > now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.
  > > > >
  > > > > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to
  cut
  > > > > those 5 million dollars.
  > > > >
  > > > > Jack H. Xu
  > > > > Technology columnist and editor
  > > > >
  > > > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > > > >
  > > > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in
  North
  > > America)
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > > - Original Message -
  > > > > From: "Rick Reumann"
  > > > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > > > > Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  > > > > Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
  > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
  > > > > >
  > > > > > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of
  it.
  > > And
  > > > > in
  > > > > > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop
  struts
  > > > > > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters
  and
  > > > > setters.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set
  > > methods,
  > > > > > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding
  Struts
  > > > > > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm
  used
  > > to
  > > > > > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla..
  > > everyone
  > > > > > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard,
  > > wha

Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Martin Gainty]

Greg-

Could you elucidate for me how .NET handles thread synchronisation?
I ran into a situation where someone wanted a .NET App coded up in 3 days 
which worked ok except I ran into a problem where multiple threads were/are 
accessing the same method..my work around was to install a hack which turned 
on a Session variable and a pre-validator function would ensure that session 
variable was indeed turned off before executing the method. Does .NET have 
any support for synchronized method access?

Feel free to contact me offline...as this WAY WAY WAY O/T

Many Thanks,
Martin-
- Original Message - 
From: "Gregory Seidman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???



On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 04:41:38AM -0700, Nitish Kumar wrote:
} With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage 
of

} .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof.
} Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt 
and
} spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which 
makes

} any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer.

You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java, IDE
notwithstanding. The language itself is more convenient, in that common
idioms require fewer lines of code. Sure, you can tell me that Eclipse or
whatnot takes the drudgery out of getters and setters, but I can tell you
that the C# language itself avoids that drudgery. You can also tell me 
that

there are Java tools to make the unpleasant task of developing a JSP tag
easier, but I can tell you that C# and ASP.NET make encapsulating
functionality in custom tags comfortable and easy. Furthermore, it is at
least three times easier (i.e. takes 1/3 the lines of code) to express
event handling in C# than in Java. C# has other advantages as well (I'm
particularly excited about the coming C# improvements, which include a 
very
nice way of expressing iteration), but those three are sufficient basis 
for

the points below.

If you are an idiot, you can produce crappy code that may actually work.
This is, indeed, more likely using Visual Studio (though I'd claim the 
days

of it being truly easy were over when VB6 went away) than in Java.
Ultimately, however, if you want solid, dependable, maintainable, scalable
software then you need good software engineering, and no IDE or language
will change that. If you have good software engineers, it then becomes a
concern of how much do they have to do to accomplish the task, which boils
down to lines of code. (A better software engineer will accomplish the 
same

task in fewer lines of code, but there is a lower limit on the lines of
code required to express any specific functionality.) With C# in
particular, and ASP.NET to some extent, the number of lines of code
required (whether or not you count lines generated by your IDE of choice)
to express any given functionality is generally less than that required to
do the same thing in Java. This is based on my experience, of course, but
also based on the specific advantages I listed above; they are common
idioms, which means that saving a few lines of code in the numerous places
in your program where you use those idioms adds up.

} Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote
} idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I
} guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. 
:)


I am not interested in having idiots coding. There are two problems with
coding by idiots:

1) They often become managers (or already were) and can't understand why 
it

  takes so long for those lazy software engineers to accomplish the tasks
  before them. I mean, after all, when they slapped together that VB app
  in a week it worked great!

2) Once the idiots have produced their crappy code, it becomes some
  software engineer's problem to maintain it, make it scalable, etc. and
  it's just unpleasant to deal with crappy code. Even worse is when
  management ties the software engineers' hands and prevents them from
  treating the crap code as a working prototype (i.e. which should now be
  rewritten) and forces them to keep it alive as is.

Also note that there are huge distinctions between a coder, a programmer,
and a software engineer. The coder produces (working?) code. The 
programmer
can produce working code that accomplishes a medium to large task with 
some

eye toward efficiency. The software engineer can produce well thought out,
working, maintainable, scalable code that provides hooks for potential
future development. I hate working with coders. Programmers are useful, 
but

require guidance.

} Thanks and Regards,
} Nitish Kumar
--Greg


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

Gregory Seidman wrote:



You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java



Clearly you are missing that we, users of Apache software, *don't care* 
which is better. news flash: We use both.
A large chunk of people here also sigh up for iBatis DAO, we use both C# 
and Java.


http://ibatis.apache.org/index.html - see all the .NET annoucments?
In case the IDE of DataSource don't work for you, and you like C#, you 
can, an Apache will facilitate.


.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 04:41:38AM -0700, Nitish Kumar wrote:
} With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of
} .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. 
} Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and
} spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes
} any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. 

You clearly missed my post on the advantages C# has over Java, IDE
notwithstanding. The language itself is more convenient, in that common
idioms require fewer lines of code. Sure, you can tell me that Eclipse or
whatnot takes the drudgery out of getters and setters, but I can tell you
that the C# language itself avoids that drudgery. You can also tell me that
there are Java tools to make the unpleasant task of developing a JSP tag
easier, but I can tell you that C# and ASP.NET make encapsulating
functionality in custom tags comfortable and easy. Furthermore, it is at
least three times easier (i.e. takes 1/3 the lines of code) to express
event handling in C# than in Java. C# has other advantages as well (I'm
particularly excited about the coming C# improvements, which include a very
nice way of expressing iteration), but those three are sufficient basis for
the points below.

If you are an idiot, you can produce crappy code that may actually work.
This is, indeed, more likely using Visual Studio (though I'd claim the days
of it being truly easy were over when VB6 went away) than in Java.
Ultimately, however, if you want solid, dependable, maintainable, scalable
software then you need good software engineering, and no IDE or language
will change that. If you have good software engineers, it then becomes a
concern of how much do they have to do to accomplish the task, which boils
down to lines of code. (A better software engineer will accomplish the same
task in fewer lines of code, but there is a lower limit on the lines of
code required to express any specific functionality.) With C# in
particular, and ASP.NET to some extent, the number of lines of code
required (whether or not you count lines generated by your IDE of choice)
to express any given functionality is generally less than that required to
do the same thing in Java. This is based on my experience, of course, but
also based on the specific advantages I listed above; they are common
idioms, which means that saving a few lines of code in the numerous places
in your program where you use those idioms adds up.

} Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote
} idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I
} guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :)

I am not interested in having idiots coding. There are two problems with
coding by idiots:

1) They often become managers (or already were) and can't understand why it
   takes so long for those lazy software engineers to accomplish the tasks
   before them. I mean, after all, when they slapped together that VB app
   in a week it worked great!

2) Once the idiots have produced their crappy code, it becomes some
   software engineer's problem to maintain it, make it scalable, etc. and
   it's just unpleasant to deal with crappy code. Even worse is when
   management ties the software engineers' hands and prevents them from
   treating the crap code as a working prototype (i.e. which should now be
   rewritten) and forces them to keep it alive as is.

Also note that there are huge distinctions between a coder, a programmer,
and a software engineer. The coder produces (working?) code. The programmer
can produce working code that accomplishes a medium to large task with some
eye toward efficiency. The software engineer can produce well thought out,
working, maintainable, scalable code that provides hooks for potential
future development. I hate working with coders. Programmers are useful, but
require guidance.

} Thanks and Regards, 
} Nitish Kumar 
--Greg


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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[netsql]

Gregory Seidman wrote:


Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get.
They are, however, pretty popular. 


This is a good list:
http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_500

So it this:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html
In this 2nd you can see that MS has less than 30% market and shrinking - 
2nd diagram.


When I did a site that was ASP (ex http://people.1up.com - w/ 10MM 
members) client wanted something secure. .NET does not run well on Linux 
for large sites and that was that. So they dumped .NET.


Using the new version of FrontPage in VS 2005, do you think you can do a 
page like ps2.1up.com, that automatical changes when you do pc.1up.com? 
It's the same page!


I am so not trying to sell you on using text editor... I WANT you to use 
GUI tools. (You know they trained an elephat to paint by the #'s).


For heavy lifting... jEdit(for Groovy) and X-Develop(when doing ANSI C#) 
will do ya.

Refactoring is *NOT* a waste of time nor indication of bad design.

Why would I want to teach you to be more productive?
Plese use GUI and VS and FrontPage and Wizards.
I think that there are much more productive aproaches, but no need for 
me to wear it on the sleave.
This is not a religois langage war, people that did good Java will do 
good C# and the other way arround.


In general, I am a libreterain, and as such I do not think stupidity 
should be outlawed. I am all for stupidity ;-)


Struts is not here to defend J2EE, go to EJB or JSF list please and tell 
them .NET is better for corporate development!


.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 03:32:00AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
} Btw... Can you name 10 successful .NET sites? Something clearly above 100
} Million PIs / month, better 1 billion PIs ?
} I'd be really interested :-)

I don't know that anyone keeps a list around, but this is a foolish
challenge to give without checking Google:

 1) www.donotcall.gov
 2) www.gop.com
 3) www.us.playstation.com
 4) www.computerjobs.com
 5) www.xanga.com
 6) asp.usatoday.com
 7) online.firstusa.com
 8) www.bankone.com
 9) www.careerbuilder.com
10) finance.lycos.com

Of course, I can't make any guarantees on how much traffic these sites get.
They are, however, pretty popular. That said, it matters very little how
many sites are successfully using it. I only know of one successfully
deployed LISP-based site, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent
technology (see http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html).

If it's a matter of being able to find people to maintain the software in
the future, you are almost always better off choosing Microsoft
technologies, though both Java and C++ are pretty strong in that area as
well. Struts? Maybe not so much. JSF? Still new, which makes it risky.

In any case, I'm not trying to post flamebait here, nor do I wish to engage
in an argument. I would like Java and J2EE/JSF/Struts/API of the month to
be better than any Microsoft offering. I will have to learn more about JSF,
since it seems to be getting there. I can say that Java/JSP/Struts falls
short of C#/.NET/ASP.NET at this time. Those of you who have never tried
doing anything with C# and ASP.NET should try it out, just to know the
competition and to gain some perspective on the sharp corners of what you
are currently using that you have grown too used to for them to register as
worth fixing.

} Regards
} Leon
--Greg


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Frank W. Zammetti]

And he's not the fastest keyboard user in the world.  I 
am.  This has been well-established in previous threads.  Search the 
archives.


(In all seriousness, I did actually hold the informal record for typing 
speed when I was in the Army, dunno if that still stands or not... which 
of course is an absolutely worthless bit of information in any case, but 
whatever :) )


Gregory Seidman wrote:

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
} Heh, 
} 
} I hate this kind of discussion...
} 
} Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world...
} 
} I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method name,

} with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code where this
} method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours?

A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's
   referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack
   of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal
   design).

B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a
   minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly
   rare operation (see A).

} leon
--Greg


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.



--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 02:16:49AM +0200, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
} Heh, 
} 
} I hate this kind of discussion...
} 
} Maybe you are the fastest keyboard user on the world...
} 
} I want to see you refactoring a method, lets say change the method name,
} with emacs/vi/notepad if there are about 20 other places in code where this
} method is called. With an IDE it takes 1 second. With vi? 3 hours?

A) If you change the name of a method, especially by the time it's
   referenced numerous places, you've already screwed up. It shows a lack
   of forethought in your design (and I don't necessarily mean formal
   design).

B) With appropriate unix tools (ed or perl, in this case), it's under a
   minute. While that's more than one second, it should be an exceedingly
   rare operation (see A).

} leon
--Greg


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

You only have this "experience" because you clearly do not even see
what te framework does for you.  If you don't see that, you see
nothing.

On 7/2/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code
> > the framework.
> 
> That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have more
> codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
> approach that was done before.
> 
> And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate
> comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email).
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
>   - Original Message -----
>   From: "Dakota Jack"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700
> 
>   >
>   > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to
>   code
>   > the framework.
>   >
>   > On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
>   > > Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic
>   text editor.
>   > >
>   > > My consideation is based on the cost of software development.
>   > >
>   > > Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before
>   > > your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines
>   > > (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.)
>   > >
>   > > Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your
>   > > project is 1.5 times than before.
>   > >
>   > > Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish
>   > > those projects will be 1.5 times as before.
>   > >
>   > > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year,
>   > > now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.
>   > >
>   > > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut
>   > > those 5 million dollars.
>   > >
>   > > Jack H. Xu
>   > > Technology columnist and editor
>   > >
>   > > http://www.usanalyst.com
>   > >
>   > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
>   America)
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > - Original Message -
>   > > From: "Rick Reumann"
>   > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   > > Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   > > Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
>   > >
>   > > >
>   > > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
>   > > >
>   > > > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it.
>   And
>   > > in
>   > > > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
>   > > > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
>   > > setters.
>   > > >
>   > > > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set
>   methods,
>   > > > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts
>   > > > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used
>   to
>   > > > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla..
>   everyone
>   > > > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard,
>   whatever:)
>   > > > It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to
>   > > > create Struts apps.
>   > > >
>   > > > -- Rick
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > >
>   -
>   > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Jack H. Xu
>   > > Technology columnist and editor
>   > >
>   > > http://www.usanalyst.com
>   > >
>   > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
>   America)
>   > >
>   > > --
>   > > ___
>   > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>   > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>   >
>   > --
>   > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
>   back."
>   > ~Dakota Jack~
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Larry Meadors]

(I need to get faster at creating filters I guess...)

Sadly, that is the lie that the idiots are buying into.

Yes, the IDE helps you do simple things like create a table ("Oooh, I
do not have to remember ,  and ? Yipp!") or create a
form ("Hmm, post vs get...I always have to look that up.") or put a
friggin link on a page ("Gosh... what does that do
again?").

However, the REAL work still has to be coded up by hand. HTML is not
that hard. That leaves all of the data access code (no, ADO.NET does
not do it for you), business (il)logic, consistent builds (pressing F5
does not count), unit tests (F5 does not count here either), etc..

Larry


On 7/2/05, Nitish Kumar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of
> .NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof.
> Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and
> spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes
> any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer.

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RE: Struts vs .NET???

[Nitish Kumar]

With all due respect to every one (including microsoft).. the advantage of
.NET is nothing but a IDE which is idiot proof. 
Any dumb can do a few clicks followed by intelligent editor to prompt and
spoon feed whats to be written, and then the IDE creates a code, which makes
any dumb with or without any intelligence, a programmer. 

Unfortunately in java, we still have a long way to go before we promote
idiots to the coder level.. We are progressing in that direction, but I
guess we still have some time before that..till then I hope to retire.. :)


Thanks and Regards, 
Nitish Kumar 




-Original Message-
From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 4:14 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???


> Dakota Jack wrote: Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one.

D.J., I think a person doesn't need do all things by himself, especially
there are lots of decent GUI tools in market for you to pick. Is writting
lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
projects?

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Dakota Jack"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:44:26 -0700

  >
  > Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. This is not a
  > response to Reumann who absolutely rocks but to those people who
  like
  > other people to code for them, i.e. the VB lovers and the like,
  like
  > JSF, .NET, etc.
  >
  > On 7/1/05, Rick Reumann wrote:
  > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
  > >
  > > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it.
  And in
  > > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
  > > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
  setters.
  > >
  > > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set
  methods, so I
  > > wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I
  happen
  > > to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them.
  (Yea I
  > > know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you
  like..
  > > emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very
  misleading to
  > > state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps.
  > >
  > > --
  > > Rick
  > >
  > >
  -
  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  > --
  > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
  back."
  > ~Dakota Jack~
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Larry Meadors]

I agree w/ Dakota on this. Using a "lines of code" metric to measure
cost is about as valid as saying "Well, gee, M$'s stock prices are way
higher than Sun's, so we should use .net!" (Which, incidentally was
the approach used where I work. Scary.)

This thread is retarded. The intent is to decide which is better:
.net, or Java/j2ee/JSF.

Bottom line: THEY ALL SUCK. Period. If any of these is the pinnacle of
human accomplishment, we are truly screwed. Not only that, but the
comparison is totally pointless. Without some context, it is
impossible to say which is better FOR YOUR NEEDS. The question is like
"Which is better: Pork or Chicken?"

I am adding an auto-delete filter on this thread...what a waste of
brain cells and bandwidth.

Larry

On 7/2/05, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, I don't.  This is a really superficial analysis.
> 
> On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means 
> > more work and more money. Don't you agree?
> >
> > Jack H. Xu
> > Technology columnist and editor

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

> Dakota Jack wrote: Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one.

D.J., I think a person doesn't need do all things by himself, especially
there are lots of decent GUI tools in market for you to pick. Is writting
lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
projects?

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Dakota Jack"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:44:26 -0700

  >
  > Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one. This is not a
  > response to Reumann who absolutely rocks but to those people who
  like
  > other people to code for them, i.e. the VB lovers and the like,
  like
  > JSF, .NET, etc.
  >
  > On 7/1/05, Rick Reumann wrote:
  > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
  > >
  > > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it.
  And in
  > > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
  > > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
  setters.
  > >
  > > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set
  methods, so I
  > > wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I
  happen
  > > to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them.
  (Yea I
  > > know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you
  like..
  > > emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very
  misleading to
  > > state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps.
  > >
  > > --
  > > Rick
  > >
  > >
  -
  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  > --
  > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
  back."
  > ~Dakota Jack~
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

> The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code
> the framework. 

That was an interesting statement. My experience was Struts have more
codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
approach that was done before.

And also I would insist J2EE vs .Net is a more appropriate
comparison than JSF vs .NET (as you suggested in another email).

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Dakota Jack"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:45:41 -0700

  >
  > The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to
  code
  > the framework.
  >
  > On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic
  text editor.
  > >
  > > My consideation is based on the cost of software development.
  > >
  > > Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before
  > > your code was 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines
  > > (remember those setters and getters and configuration files.)
  > >
  > > Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your
  > > project is 1.5 times than before.
  > >
  > > Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish
  > > those projects will be 1.5 times as before.
  > >
  > > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year,
  > > now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.
  > >
  > > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut
  > > those 5 million dollars.
  > >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >
  > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > - Original Message -
  > > From: "Rick Reumann"
  > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > > Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  > > Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
  > >
  > > >
  > > > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
  > > >
  > > > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it.
  And
  > > in
  > > > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
  > > > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
  > > setters.
  > > >
  > > > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set
  methods,
  > > > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts
  > > > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used
  to
  > > > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla..
  everyone
  > > > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard,
  whatever:)
  > > > It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to
  > > > create Struts apps.
  > > >
  > > > -- Rick
  > > >
  > > >
  > >
  -
  > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >
  > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  > >
  > > --
  > > ___
  > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
  > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
  > >
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  > --
  > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
  back."
  > ~Dakota Jack~
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Yan Hu]

--- Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This is like comparing apples and oranges.  The level of coding
> knowledge in this thread is way low, way low.
In fact, people were comparing J2EE with .NET. instead of Struts vs .NET since 
they are apple and
orange.. The subject is misleading...

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

This is like comparing apples and oranges.  The level of coding
knowledge in this thread is way low, way low.

On 7/1/05, Yan Hu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10
> > painting.
> >
> 
> How many people could afford Picaso?  That is excatly why .NET is creeping up 
> so fast.  As Rod
> Johnson asked, how many huge huge apps are out there waiting for distributed 
> transaction
> management provided by EJB containers? .  What does Java have to stack up 
> against .NET on
> desktops?  NOTHING. We are still strong on the severside although we lost 
> quite a portion of the
> pie to .NET. If we lost our last stronghold on the serverside, you would all 
> become bums(on top of
> outsourcing) no matter how fast you could code in your this pad and that pad. 
> Thanks to JSF and
> other things such as spring and hibernate,we are in very good shape again.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 


-- 
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~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Yan Hu]

--- Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No, I don't.  This is a really superficial analysis.
This is an empty statement.

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Yan Hu]

I believe JSF will kill Struts in 2 years...

--- Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code
> the framework.
> 
> On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor.
> > 
> > My consideation is based on the cost of software development.
> > 
> > Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code 
> > was 1000 lines. Now
> in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and 
> configuration
> files.)
> > 
> > Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 
> > times than before.
> > 
> > Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects 
> > will be 1.5 times
> as before.
> > 
> > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you 
> > need 15 million
> dollars to do the same work.
> > 
> > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 
> > million dollars.
> > 
> > Jack H. Xu
> > Technology columnist and editor
> > 
> > http://www.usanalyst.com
> > 
> > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   - Original Message -
> >   From: "Rick Reumann"
> >   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
> >   Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
> >   Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
> > 
> >   >
> >   > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
> >   >
> >   > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And
> >   in
> >   > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
> >   > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
> >   setters.
> >   >
> >   > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods,
> >   > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts
> >   > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to
> >   > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone
> >   > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:)
> >   > It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to
> >   > create Struts apps.
> >   >
> >   > -- Rick
> >   >
> >   >
> >   -
> >   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Jack H. Xu
> > Technology columnist and editor
> > 
> > http://www.usanalyst.com
> > 
> > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> > 
> > --
> > ___
> > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


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Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

No, I don't.  This is a really superficial analysis.

On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work 
> and more money. Don't you agree?
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> 
> 
>   - Original Message -
>   From: netsql
>   To: user@struts.apache.org
>   Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:30:31 -0700
> 
>   >
>   >
>   > >
>   > > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year,
>   > > now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.
>   > >
>   > > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut
>   > > those 5 million dollars.
>   > >
>   > > Jack H. Xu
>   > > Technology columnist and editor
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>   > Ahh.. you are an editor... and not a programmer. In that case your
>   > logic is right.
>   >
>   > .V
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 
> 


-- 
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~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

The lines with Struts are in fact less, because you don't have to code
the framework.

On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor.
> 
> My consideation is based on the cost of software development.
> 
> Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 
> 1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters 
> and getters and configuration files.)
> 
> Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 
> times than before.
> 
> Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects 
> will be 1.5 times as before.
> 
> Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 
> 15 million dollars to do the same work.
> 
> So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 
> million dollars.
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> 
> 
>   - Original Message -
>   From: "Rick Reumann"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
> 
>   >
>   > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
>   >
>   > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And
>   in
>   > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
>   > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
>   setters.
>   >
>   > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods,
>   > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts
>   > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to
>   > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone
>   > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:)
>   > It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to
>   > create Struts apps.
>   >
>   > -- Rick
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

Good lord, if you want a GUI tool, just make one.  This is not a
response to Reumann who absolutely rocks but to those people who like
other people to code for them, i.e. the VB lovers and the like, like
JSF, .NET, etc.

On 7/1/05, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
> 
> > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in
> > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
> > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters.
> 
> Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I
> wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen
> to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I
> know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like..
> emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to
> state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps.
> 
> --
> Rick
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Dakota Jack]

Actually, I usually compare JSF and .NET.

On 6/30/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We usually compare
> 
> J2EE vs .NET
> 
> struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my 
> opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, 
> otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters.
> 
> .NET is good technology but it can not work on other systems. I like .net's 
> web services. Overall, I still like Java better than .net.
> 
> I had designed rather large Java-based system with J2EE. Performance are very 
> good.
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The lagest free job portal in North America)
> 
> 
> 
>   - Original Message -
>   From: "Rafael Taboada"
>   To: "Struts List"
>   Subject: Struts vs .NET???
>   Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:57 -0500
> 
>   >
>   > Hi folks I've been reading all mails about VS.NET .
>   > I have a question. Is it true that software in ASP.NET is
>   > faster than in Struts???.. HOw true is this opinion?
>   > I heard about a tool that it can convert a ASP.NET soft in
>   > a .war so it can be runned in Tomcat... Is it true? what tool is
>   it?
>   > Thanks for ur xperiencie sharing.
>   >
>   > --
>   > Rafael Taboada
>   > Software Engineer
>   >
>   > Cell : +511-97753290
>   >
>   > "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar
>   mi vida"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and author
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? ->This is my Stats

[Craig McClanahan]

On 7/1/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Leon Rosenberg wrote: I think the larger problem for a java developer
> in a small business sector
> > is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany.
> 
> Agree with you that PHP snd Perl and MySQL are popular on web these days.
> See the blogs and forums, most are PHP. This makes me wonder where
> java-based applications such as Java Face, EJB or Struts played on the
> large public web applications. There must be some economic reasons
> behind it.
> 

For public Internet sites, one of the issues for the Java platform is
the relative number of hosting sites that have Java technology
available, versus (say) PHP or PERL.  In turn, this is related to a
relative lack of knowledge on the part of ISP sysadmins about how to
set up and administer the Java stuff (not that it's any harder than
configuring httpd.conf ... it's just different).

A really useful open source project would be to provide one or more
completely integrated packages (Apache HTTPD + Tomcat, Apache HTTPD +
Geronimo, Tomcat standalone, Geronimo standalone, etc.) that have
everything an app developer would like to see (database, JSF, JSTL,
Hibernate, ...) and are trivially easy for an interested ISP to
download and install, coupled with sysadmin-oriented documentation
that helps them hook in the facilities to the rest of their
environment.  It would need to include, for example, options that
allowed the ISP to sell both shared JVM and standalone JVM
environments to their customers (probably for a lower and higher
price, respectively), with extra points for supporting goodies like
distributed applications.

The number of public webapps (no matter what the implementation
technology) is actually pretty small compared to the number of
applications (no matter what the impementation technology) behind the
firewall, so this situation isn't a total surprise ... but making it
easier for ISPs to provide a nice Java runtime environment would go a
long ways towards helping the availability of Java webapps on the
public part of the net.

> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor

Craig

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

John Henry Xu wrote:
.V, 

I was working on Java until I became a manager. 


Hmmm.


 In struts and EJB, lots of codes fit into patterns and can be automated.




If you think automating code generation is your best skill, go for it. 
It's telling that you selected EJB. You can generate more code in C# also.



Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager.> 
 


Agreed on that. So it's for software engineer. Anyone can write code. 
Writing it effectively is the way to it.


.V



Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor



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Re: Struts vs .NET??? ->This is my Stats

[John Henry Xu]

> Leon Rosenberg wrote: I think the larger problem for a java developer
in a small business sector
> is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany.

Agree with you that PHP snd Perl and MySQL are popular on web these days.
See the blogs and forums, most are PHP. This makes me wonder where
java-based applications such as Java Face, EJB or Struts played on the
large public web applications. There must be some economic reasons
behind it. 

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Leon Rosenberg"
  To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET??? ->This is my Stats
  Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 03:53:01 +0200

  >
  > > When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by putting
  > > words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things (such as 1000
  > > times). Considering .NET has not been around as long as
  > > java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary?
  >
  > No I don't, and know why? Here is a quote from a typical job offer
  which
  > comes out at monster (this one was from uk)
  > when you search for .NET:
  >
  > As a VB Developer, this is an opportunity for you to team up and
  work
  > alongside some of the top developers around and therefore to be
  considered
  > for this role, you will need to have at least 2 years solid Visual
  Basic
  > experience and a good understanding of the development of ActiveX
  > components, COM and .Net. Those who have and experience of the
  financial
  > market or have Real time software development then that will be
  beneficial
  > with your application.
  >
  > Salary 45K pounds in london... That's like 20K euro in germany or
  30K USD in
  > US. Sorry, this is not my kind of job :-)
  >
  > > You see you are missing the whole point here. I have been a
  long time
  > believer that J2EE is good for big honking things. But
  > > .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about
  small to
  > medium sized apps here. large sites also use .NET such as
  > > www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I
  am too
  > lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them
  > > yourself...
  >
  > I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business
  sector
  > is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in
  germany.
  >
  > But know what, it was dumb from me, to get on this discussion. I
  admit my
  > defeat, you won, all praise .NET.
  >
  > :-)
  > Leon
  >
  >
  >
  >
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  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? ->This is my Stats

[Leon Rosenberg]

> When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by 
> putting words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things 
> (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as 
> long as java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary?

No I don't, and know why? Here is a quote from a typical job offer which
comes out at monster (this one was from uk) 
when you search for .NET:

As a VB Developer, this is an opportunity for you to team up and work
alongside some of the top developers around and therefore to be considered
for this role, you will need to have at least 2 years solid Visual Basic
experience and a good understanding of the development of ActiveX
components, COM and .Net. Those who have and experience of the financial
market or have Real time software development then that will be beneficial
with your application. 

Salary 45K pounds in london... That's like 20K euro in germany or 30K USD in
US. Sorry, this is not my kind of job :-) 

> You see you are missing the whole point here.  I have been a long time
believer that J2EE is good for big honking things.  But 
> .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about small to
medium sized apps here.  large sites also use .NET such as 
> www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I am too
lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them 
> yourself...

I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector
is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. 

But know what, it was dumb from me, to get on this discussion. I admit my
defeat, you won, all praise .NET.

:-) 
Leon



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Re: Struts vs .NET??? ->This is my Stats

[Leon Rosenberg]

> When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by 
> putting words in others mouths and not to exaggerate things 
> (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as 
> long as java/j2ee, don't you think the numbers are scary?

No I don't, and know why? Here is a quote from a typical job offer which
comes out at monster (this one was from uk) 
when you search for .NET:

As a VB Developer, this is an opportunity for you to team up and work
alongside some of the top developers around and therefore to be considered
for this role, you will need to have at least 2 years solid Visual Basic
experience and a good understanding of the development of ActiveX
components, COM and .Net. Those who have and experience of the financial
market or have Real time software development then that will be beneficial
with your application. 

Salary 45K pounds in london... That's like 20K euro in germany or 30K USD in
US. Sorry, this is not my kind of job :-) 

> You see you are missing the whole point here.  I have been a long time
believer that J2EE is good for big honking things.  But 
> .NET is eating up the small business sectors. I am talking about small to
medium sized apps here.  large sites also use .NET such as 
> www.dell.com and I believe there are a lot more out there I am too
lazy to google it right now.. I believe you could find them 
> yourself...

I think the larger problem for a java developer in a small business sector
is PHP or even Perl. .NET is mostly irrelevant, at least in germany. 

But know what, it was dumb from me, to get on this discussion. I admit my
defeat, you won, all praise .NET.

:-) 
Leon



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Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

.V, 

I was working on Java until I became a manager. The discussion seems go to the 
direction of GUI vs. no GUI.

My intention was automating the coding process. In struts and EJB, lots of 
codes fit into patterns and can be automated.

I was actually developing command line automation utilities to do that without 
GUI.

Another example of good automation is Ant and NAnt that can automate routine 
build jobs and thus reduce the cost of software development.

Money is the No. 1 factor for a owner/manager.

 

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  


  - Original Message -
  From: netsql
  To: user@struts.apache.org
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:54:42 -0700

  >
  > Yan Hu wrote:
  > How long did it take you to be this productive?
  > > Obviously, you are expensive for all the hard work you did in the
  > > past. But a bum who needs only
  > > 10 dollars hours could do the same thing with FrontPage as you
  > > would. Why would I pay you 50
  > > dollars an hours to just draw a couple of buttons on a form? ---
  > > John Henry Xu wrote:
  > >
  > >
  >
  > Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a
  > $10 painting.
  >
  > In my shop, GUI tools for Swing or UI, such as VS, are not allowed.
  > You must make UI handcoding it. You'll just have to take my word
  > that it's *MUCH* more productive to hand code a UI when you are
  > building a complex UI.
  >
  >
  > .V
  >
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? ->This is my Stats

[Yan Hu]

All done on the US sites.
www.monster.com
.NET more than 1000 and 20 pages
Java more than 1000 and 20 pages

www.dice.com
.NET 8490 listings
Java 11159 listings 


www.indeed.com (an aggregator for all major job sites in the US)
.NET 68,599 listings
Java 63,451 listings 

When you have a debate, try not to win the debate by by putting words in others 
mouths and not to
exaggerate things (such as 1000 times). Considering .NET has not been around as 
long as java/j2ee,
don't you think the numbers are scary?



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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Yan Hu]

--- Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yan Hu wrote: 
> > How many people could afford Picaso?  That is excatly why 
> > .NET is creeping up so fast.  
> 
> After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as
> for java i tested it myself.

Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said "there are much more jobs for 
.NET". How long has
been .NET around?  2-3 years..right? How long has Java or J2EE been around?  

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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Leon Rosenberg]

Yan Hu wrote: 
> How many people could afford Picaso?  That is excatly why 
> .NET is creeping up so fast.  

After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as
for java i tested it myself.

Monster search for java: 25 pages
Monster search for .NET 17 pages
+47% for java

Stepstone same search:
Java - 362 Offers
.NET - 98 Offers
+269% for java

Jobpilot.de 
Java - 1094 Offers
.NET - 334 Offers
+227% for Java

All searches executed on german pages.







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Re: Struts vs .NET??? -> Real Stats

[Leon Rosenberg]

Yan Hu wrote: 
> How many people could afford Picaso?  That is excatly why 
> .NET is creeping up so fast.  

After you told us about 1000 times that there are much more jobs for .NET as
for java i tested it myself.

Monster search for java: 25 pages
Monster search for .NET 17 pages
+47% for java

Stepstone same search:
Java - 362 Offers
.NET - 98 Offers
+269% for java

Jobpilot.de 
Java - 1094 Offers
.NET - 334 Offers
+227% for Java

All searches executed on german pages.







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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Yan Hu]

> Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10 
> painting.
> 

How many people could afford Picaso?  That is excatly why .NET is creeping up 
so fast.  As Rod
Johnson asked, how many huge huge apps are out there waiting for distributed 
transaction
management provided by EJB containers? .  What does Java have to stack up 
against .NET on
desktops?  NOTHING. We are still strong on the severside although we lost quite 
a portion of the
pie to .NET. If we lost our last stronghold on the serverside, you would all 
become bums(on top of
outsourcing) no matter how fast you could code in your this pad and that pad. 
Thanks to JSF and
other things such as spring and hibernate,we are in very good shape again. 

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

Yan Hu wrote:
How long did it take you to be this productive?

Obviously, you are expensive for all the hard work you did in the past. But a 
bum who needs only
10 dollars hours could do the same thing with FrontPage as you would.  Why 
would I pay you 50
dollars an hours to just draw a couple of buttons on a form? 


--- John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Good point. Sometimes you want a Picaso, and sometimes you want a $10 
painting.


In my shop, GUI tools for Swing or UI, such as VS, are not allowed. You 
must make UI handcoding it. You'll just have to take my word that it's 
*MUCH* more productive to hand code a UI when you are building a complex UI.



.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Yan Hu]

Here I totally agree with John Henry.  Yes, you are a very good programmer if 
you could beat
someone who uses FrontPage and you use only a text pad. This is no doubt.  As 
the analogy I made a
couple of days ago, you are too expensive. How long did it take you to be this 
productive? 
Obviously, you are expensive for all the hard work you did in the past. But a 
bum who needs only
10 dollars hours could do the same thing with FrontPage as you would.  Why 
would I pay you 50
dollars an hours to just draw a couple of buttons on a form? 

--- John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor.
> 
> My consideation is based on the cost of software development. 
> 
> Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 
> 1000 lines. Now in
> struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and getters and 
> configuration files.)
> 
> Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 
> times than before.
> 
> Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects 
> will be 1.5 times as
> before.
> 
> Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 
> 15 million dollars
> to do the same work.
> 
> So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 
> million dollars.
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message -
>   From: "Rick Reumann"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
>   Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400
> 
>   >
>   > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
>   >
>   > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And
>   in
>   > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
>   > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
>   setters.
>   >
>   > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods,
>   > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts
>   > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to
>   > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone
>   > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:)
>   > It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to
>   > create Struts apps.
>   >
>   > -- Rick
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> -- 
> ___
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> 
> 


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

John Henry Xu wrote:
code which can be

automated by GUI and tools. Microsoft usually do this job better. Hope we
learn from them.

Jack H. Xu





I am sure you write better than me.
Look at it this way, you could be a sports journalist and I could be a 
pro basketball player, and you are writing that I should waer some kind 
of sneakers to score more.

I am sure lots of suits read PC week and decide based on that.

There are whole other dimensions that have nothing to do w/ GUI 
generated code.

Like OO. Or Groovy.
Look, I can't teach you to dunk the ball. But you can watch me do it!
;-)

.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

netsql (.V) said,

>>Unless I do fixed bid. Or have my own software company... where you
try to reduce costs.

Have to manage costs in my projects. Or they may be outsourced to ...

Many expensive J2EE projects fall into trap of extral code which can be
automated by GUI and tools. Microsoft usually do this job better. Hope we
learn from them.

Jack H. Xu

Technology columnist and editor



http://www.usanalyst.com



http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

  - Original Message -
  From: netsql
  To: user@struts.apache.org
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:40:45 -0700

  >
  > John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes
  > > means more work and more money. Don't you agree?
  > >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > >
  >
  > Unless I do fixed bid. Or have my own software company... where you
  > try to reduce costs. So we only do things that reduce cost.
  >
  > I am fine w/ you thinking that "FrontPage" is more productive that
  "TextPad".
  >
  > In general, more profitable companies advance.
  >
  > .V
  >
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

John Henry Xu wrote:

V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work 
and more money. Don't you agree?

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor




Unless I do fixed bid. Or have my own software company... where you try 
to reduce costs. So we only do things that reduce cost.


I am fine w/ you thinking that "FrontPage" is more productive that 
"TextPad".


In general, more profitable companies advance.

.V


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Re: Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

V., in any cases of programming, more lines and more classes means more work 
and more money. Don't you agree?

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  



  - Original Message -
  From: netsql
  To: user@struts.apache.org
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:30:31 -0700

  >
  >
  > >
  > > Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year,
  > > now you need 15 million dollars to do the same work.
  > >
  > > So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut
  > > those 5 million dollars.
  > >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > >
  >
  > Ahh.. you are an editor... and not a programmer. In that case your
  > logic is right.
  >
  > .V
  >
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 
15 million dollars to do the same work.

So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million 
dollars.

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor




Ahh.. you are an editor... and not a programmer. In that case your logic 
is right.


.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

Rick, you are right that you can write struts using very basic text editor.

My consideation is based on the cost of software development. 

Let's say for the same problem that you tried to solve: before your code was 
1000 lines. Now in struts, your code are 1500 lines (remember those setters and 
getters and configuration files.)

Assume you use basic text editor, the time you finish your project is 1.5 times 
than before.

Now if this transfer to many projects, the budget you finish those projects 
will be 1.5 times as before.

Suppose your department used to spend 10 million dollars a year, now you need 
15 million dollars to do the same work.

So good GUIs to automate repeatable codes are neccessary to cut those 5 million 
dollars.

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  



  - Original Message -
  From: "Rick Reumann"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:35:31 -0400

  >
  > John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
  >
  > > struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And
  in
  > > my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
  > > application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and
  setters.
  >
  > Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods,
  > so I wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts
  > apps. I happen to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to
  > using them. (Yea I know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone
  > just use what you like.. emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:)
  > It's just very misleading to state that you need GUI tools to
  > create Struts apps.
  >
  > -- Rick
  >
  >
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  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

Rick Reumann wrote:

John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:
 you spend lots of time on getters and setters.


You can use stuts w/ collections, maps, lists. I used to.
No need for beans (I used own "baseBeans" and got rid of it when I found 
collections superior). For example muti row updates. Look at dynaMap 
javadocs.

The old struts was beans.




 It's just very misleading to

state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps.



+1.

Even in C# I dislike VS, in favor of text based.
In HTML, some people used FrontPage (the tools and wizzards and paint by 
the #'s) some people use TextPad (Vi-m, etc.)
For heavy lifting, I think text editor types are much more productive 
then VS/Frontpage. I don't see how you can say that an IDE XYZ makes one 
a better developer or a lanage ABC a better one.
Is textpad more productive than FrontPage? Yes, IMO. Your millage may 
differ.


.V


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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann]

John Henry Xu wrote the following on 6/30/2005 11:49 PM:


struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in
my opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts
application, otherwise you spend lots of time on getters and setters.


Well even many of the most basic editors will make get/set methods, so I 
wouldn't say you need a GUI Tool at all for coding Struts apps. I happen 
to use IDEA and jEdit, mostly because I'm used to using them. (Yea I 
know Eclipse is good also..bla bla.. everyone just use what you like.. 
emacs, vim, pico, chalkboard, whatever:) It's just very misleading to 
state that you need GUI tools to create Struts apps.


--
Rick

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[John Henry Xu]

We usually compare 

J2EE vs .NET 

struts can fit into J2EE structure and it is only part of it. And in my 
opinion, you better use some GUI tools to develop struts application, otherwise 
you spend lots of time on getters and setters.

.NET is good technology but it can not work on other systems. I like .net's web 
services. Overall, I still like Java better than .net.

I had designed rather large Java-based system with J2EE. Performance are very 
good. 

Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The lagest free job portal in North America)  



  - Original Message -
  From: "Rafael Taboada"
  To: "Struts List"
  Subject: Struts vs .NET???
  Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:57 -0500

  >
  > Hi folks I've been reading all mails about VS.NET .
  > I have a question. Is it true that software in ASP.NET is
  > faster than in Struts???.. HOw true is this opinion?
  > I heard about a tool that it can convert a ASP.NET soft in
  > a .war so it can be runned in Tomcat... Is it true? what tool is
  it?
  > Thanks for ur xperiencie sharing.
  >
  > --
  > Rafael Taboada
  > Software Engineer
  >
  > Cell : +511-97753290
  >
  > "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar
  mi vida"






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and author

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com

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Re: Struts vs .NET???

[netsql]

Lets say it's true.
Maybe you should check the asp list for that tool.
.V

Rafael Taboada wrote:

Hi folks I've been reading all mails about VS.NET .
 I have a question. Is it true that software in ASP.NET  is 
faster than in Struts???.. HOw true is this opinion?
 I heard about a tool that it can convert a ASP.NET  soft in 
a .war so it can be runned in Tomcat... Is it true? what tool is it?

 Thanks for ur xperiencie sharing.




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