from:"Guenter Wildgruber"

Finlay, good to hear,

my response to Jed did not get through.
I would be interested how You see this from a Canadian perspective.

So here it is:
---
ok, Canadian immigration does not care, who immigrates.
1) On this level it is just about the rules.
Pay yor dough, be compliant, pass basic tests. No problem here.

2) On a higher level, say Canadian secret service, it is about risk assessment.
Could the immigrant be a risk to the nation, whatever that is? DGT very well be 
maybe a new type of national risk.

They may very well be asleep at the wheel, and not recognize this. 

3) The next level would be DGT starting operations within CDN, plus being 
successful, which wakes up the institutions.

4) On the next level it gets political.

Even a moderate chess-player like myself could anticipate these moves.

If you do not anticipate, you are on the losing street.

So what happens next?

5) Here we enter the domain of the probable, where I speculate, that the 
Harper-government would step in and limit DGTG-in-CDN operations, as soon as it 
gets effective.
The fossile-energy lobby in CDN is probably the biggest in the country.

Considering this, DGT would be well advised to stay in Greece, where law and 
lobby-interests are weak, -only corruption there-  and not operate near the 
belly of the energy-beast, which will fight teeth and claw to prevent 
energy-revolution.

Probabilistic in this sense: that a chess player enters the domain of future 
moves, where nothing is certain, but (im-)probable.
The parameter-space of chess is tiny compared to real life, as we all know, and 
the way to reduce degrees of freedom is common sense.


Finally: Considering this, DGTs move seems to be a bad move to me.

But I might be wrong.
Such is my -ahem- probabilistic thinking.
The beauty: I will never be disappointed. I eventually just lose. But this is 
the nature of the game.
I just modify probabilities next time, if there is a 'next time' ;)

Guenter







 Von: Finlay MacNab finlaymac...@hotmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 22:51 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?
 

 
As a research scientist working for a solar start-up in Vancouver, I agree with 
Jed.  

It would be wonderful if Defkalion moved here.  I would love to nanostructure 
some nickel for them!




Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:48:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?
From: jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
I am very aware of possible positive effects of this move.


My main argument is probabilistic.

I am not sure what probabilistic means in this context. But in any case, your 
statement about how the Canadian government might refuse to allow an 
incorporation is nonsense. The law does not permit that.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...

Eric, 

Your calculations are correct, but present a problem.
At least to me.
 It is very easy to generate a broad spectrum with a peak of some 30THz.
Just heat up your cooking plate, so to say.
The problem -to my opinion-  is twofold:

a) spatial:
Any emitter has a certain area-density of emission. and the best we can do is 
concentrate this emission onto 
the receiver 1:1, on said area basis. The sun being a good example. 
Surface-temperature of the sun being say 5000K. You never can surpass this 
temperature at the receiving side (via a burning glass or concentrating 
mirror). 

Emitters like the sun or a heating plate are variants of Lambert-emitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamberts_cosine_law
To collect all those emissions, you need a big lens, especially if emitter and 
receiver are whithin close distance (unlike the sun)


b) spectral

now, if You want say 30--30.1THz, you cut out only a small segment of the whole 
emission.
The smaller the interval of interest, the smaller the amount of energy within 
that, right?
If You translate this to area-density, You get uW to mW at best per mm2.


Now, to overcome this, you need a generator, like a Laser or some other 
electronic device (RF-generator) with an antenna, which would look quite cute, 
like a wood of nanowires.

Now in the 30THz regime there are no generators, only Lasers. (Electronic 
generators in the 30GHz regime are quite a feat currently. 
And those are extremely low power. See eg LeCroy, the 
oscilloscope-manufacturer. They try to conquer the 100Ghz regime, which 
is 0.1THz, a meager factor of 300 below 30THz. )
THz lasers (say: 5THz) of significant power are a research topic. Google High 
power THz Laser and You see what I mean.
The highest I could see is a theoretical power of 100W with efficiency in the 
1%-region.
So this is not an attractive option.

As a final comment:
To bring a nanostrucure into resonance needs, say a certain specific frequency 
with a bandwidth of 1%. This is just a reasonable guess.
All other frequencies present possibly/probably -I do not know- HINDER/PREVENT 
the effect!

The philosopher in me sees this as a feature, not a bug in the construction of 
the Universe.
In the other case it would have exploded long time ago,

So the stability of the universe, as we experience it, is a living proof for 
affairs as they are. A tautology this is.

This is not quite the same as the anthropic principle, but some close relative.

Tricking this is a nifty endeavor.
Guenter



 Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 4:56 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...
 

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com 
wrote:


guys, whatever that is, do You really think that Rossi put something like that 
into real world commercial operation?
THz pulses with significant energy?

From my reading I've concluded that THz is basically infrared.  Sometimes I've 
seen a distinction made between it and infrared, and at other times I have not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Light_spectrum.svg

An application on a Web page is telling me that the blackbody radiation for an 
object at 300 C (573 K) is 30 THz, with a lower limit of 24 THz and an upper 
limit of 37 THz.  So 300 C would seem to be the goldilocks zone as far as 
terahertz radiation is concerned.  You don't need a fancy terahertz RF pulse 
device; you just heat something up.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Take this with a grain of salt

Jones, 
very impressive, but I understood next to nothing.

Now Mills produced a voluminous body of alternative theory, which wikipedia 
rightly cites as 
...One of the motivations for developing the novel theory was to find 
physical laws that are EXACT ON ALL SCALES, thereby [overcoming] the 
limitations of quantum mechanics...

I do not feel qualified to challenge the case.

Anyway:
So to challenge the 'exactness' brings down the whole theory?
Am I being naive here?

Could You elaborate?
What is your thinking?

all the best
Guenter





 Von: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 18:48 Samstag, 28.Juli 2012
Betreff: [Vo]:Take this with a grain of salt
 
In several recent papers, R. Mills and associates have quietly introduced a
surprising catalyst, which curiously has not elicited much online comment.
(unless I missed it).

...

Re: [Vo]:Kresenn Ltd: a new player on the LENR market?

wow! 

A woman.
Reality invading? This is a men's world!

..At Kresenn we are working to develop a unified theory for LENR based on the 
study of nanomagnetism in ultrathin films, multilayers and nanostructures. ...

Theory-development is now not a matter of science any more, but of REAL MEN in 
the corporate world.
I waited for this one. PHANtastic!


G.




 Von: Susanna Gipp susan.g...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 19:48 Samstag, 28.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Kresenn Ltd: a new player on the LENR market?
 

Wow another web site and a po box full of  bulls... ahem free energy promises.
What are they're selling ? A cheap copy of Rossi's stuff ?




2012/7/28 Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com

On 2012-07-28 19:27, Akira Shirakawa wrote:

 I wonder if others
will join the LENR market in the meantime.


Here I meant to write: the rush to market.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:Kresenn Ltd: a new player on the LENR market?

Susanna, supposing that You do not have have some Y chromosomes:
...
 roughly half of 
humans (females) do not have Y chromosomes


Consider this (James Brown):

This is a man's world, this is a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

You see, man made the cars to take us over the road
Man made the trains to carry heavy loads
Man made electric light to take us out of the dark
Man made the boat for the water, like Noah made the ark

This is a man's, a man's, a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

Man thinks about a little baby girls and a baby boys
Man makes then happy 'cause man makes them toys
And after man has made everything, everything he can
You know that man makes money to buy from other man

This is a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

He's lost in the wilderness
He's lost in bitterness
-
See.
Men are quite sensible, but in their own way.

regards 

G.



 Von: Susanna Gipp susan.g...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 19:48 Samstag, 28.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Kresenn Ltd: a new player on the LENR market?
 

Wow another web site and a po box full of  bulls... ahem free energy promises.
What are they're selling ? A cheap copy of Rossi's stuff ?




2012/7/28 Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com

On 2012-07-28 19:27, Akira Shirakawa wrote:

 I wonder if others
will join the LENR market in the meantime.


Here I meant to write: the rush to market.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:Kresenn Ltd: a new player on the LENR market?

Akira, a very sensible retreat.

I would welcome a female voice here.
So I tried to encourage Susanna to chime in.

This is NOT merely a men's world!
(Listen to James Brown)

Any discussion which is purely by men is suspicious by definition!

G.




 Von: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:34 Samstag, 28.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Kresenn Ltd: a new player on the LENR market?
 
On 2012-07-28 19:48, Susanna Gipp wrote:
 Wow another web site and a po box full of  bulls... ahem free energy
 promises.
 What are they're selling ? A cheap copy of Rossi's stuff ?

On a more serious note, after checking out a few things, it appears this 
website isn't as fresh as I thought. Apparently it's been online since 
mid-2011. By the way, I find that portions of what can be found in the 
Articles section are rather inconveniently written, at least for a company 
supposed to be taken seriously.

http://www.kresenn.com/#!articles

Anyway, if this isn't a newly opened website, somehow it managed to elude LENR 
blogosphere exposure until recently. I've never read anything before about it, 
the company, or Celani's involvement with it, either.

Assuming that the website has been left unchanged since its inception, Q1-2013 
is getting closer and its owners might want to clarify ASAP its status, if 
there are any news or what happened with their collaboration with Francesco 
Celani (I was under the impression he was struggling trying to obtain research 
funds).

Cheers,
S.A.

[Vo]:Stopping commenting



friends, 
I will stop commenting in the list for a month or two or so.

Enough is enough.

Thank you for enduring my critical comments.
Personal mails excepted.

Guenter

Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...

Mark, sorry to annoy You.

ReWell, 

...And for your information, THz-based technologies are being commercialized, 
so the technology has operational products

I looked  at that:
...This system uses the natural terahertz waves produced by individuals ...

Those are DETECTION systems, not emitters.
Cost is typically $200K per system

So do You have a more relevant reference?

The issue was in the context: a possible THz emitter in the 100W to 1kW range 
(Rossi COP 6).
Known systems involving THz lasers are low power and VERY costly.
The most cost effective high power systems being CO2 at 10um, but this is FIR, 
not THz.
If You have ever seen a high power CO2-laser, You know what the cost is.


And , yes I am a 'newbie' with a mere 1yr participation in the list, and 
actually was not aware of the founding charter of the list.
I am mainly in here because of LENR-related topics.
Other topics varyingly catch my interest.
My 'philosophical' musings may not be in everybody's interest. Cannot be. 

Most people lack the background. But some have it.

So what is wrong with that?

If the list would be something like a comment section on eg Sterling Allan's 
mostly abstruse 'revelations', I am actually not interested.
I call this crap. Waste of time.
Nevertheless, ZPE, as Your nick suggests, is sort of interesting, like 
homeopathy, but delivers nothing.
I listen.

But there are some interesting people here.


Opt out, ignore my posts, it is easy.
If the storm of outrage in the list crashes over my head, I will leave.

Guenter






 Von: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 8:19 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...
 

I’ve toned it down for public consumption…
 
Guenter:
1.   Nobody was suggesting that Rossi implemented THz technology in his 
unit…
2.   Whenever we see some developments which are interesting, we share that 
info here…
3.   For your information, this forum is NOT a Rossi/E-Cat/LENR only 
forum.  It has existed for DECADES, and many of the regular contributors have 
been here from the start; you’ve only been here for what, less than a year?
4.   I suggest you read the founder’s explanation of what Vortex-l is here 
for….
 
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html
“The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional 
research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy 
effects (i.e., the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among 
others.)  Currently it has evolved into a discussion on taboo physics reports 
and research.  SKEPTICS BEWARE, the topics wander from Cold Fusion, to reports 
of excess energy in Free Energy devices, gravity generation and detection, 
reports of theoretically impossible phenomena, and all sorts of supposedly 
crackpot claims. Before you subscribe, please see the rules below. This is a 
public, lightly- moderated smartlist list. There is no charge, but donations 
towards expenses are recommended.”
 
I would argue that the discussion thread on THz coupling directly into lattice 
vibrations is a helluva lot more relevant to this forum’s purpose than the 
political/philosophical crap you’ve been spewing out in copious amounts lately.
 
“Did you ever build something slightly sophisticated?  If not, shut up and 
retreat to your cave or listen to people who did.”
Yeah, several things in fact; the latest being a RF/microwave (20+GHz) 
technology (sensors and algorithms) to noninvasively measure a person’s blood 
sugar… 
 
“Citing something exotic does not make it operational.”
As explained above, *this forum exists explicitly for the purpose of discussing 
the exotic*; operational or not!  
And for your information, THz-based technologies are being commercialized, so 
the technology has operational products.
http://www.wi-ltd.com/security/Scanning_and_Screening/X_Ray_and_Screening_Systems/People_Scanners/WG_Body_Passive_Terahertz_Scanner
 
I suggest you learn to hit the ‘delete’ key… it’s not all that difficult, and 
takes much less time than posting an arrogant, condescending message.
 
-Mark
 
From:Guenter Wildgruber [mailto:gwildgru...@ymail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:17 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...
 
guys, whatever that is, do You really think that Rossi put something like that 
into real world commercial operation?
THz pulses with significant energy?

on a partial cost basis of say $100 of his ecat-3.

Sorry to say: You must be completely deluded and have not idea what technology 
is all about.

Did you ever build something slightly sophisticated?

If not, shut up and retreat to your cave or listen to people who did.

Citing something exotic does not make it operational,

Daily techno-gossip is full of crap like this.

GET REAL!

Very annoyed.

Plus: Dear Lou. If You cite crappy

Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...

fran,
thank you for Your kind and moderate words.

Actually my thinking and arguing in the list here is centered about the 
possibility that Rossi eventually might use THz.
About other aspects I do not know a lot.
Wrt Rossi my comment is a resolute NO, with very basic arguments, technological 
and commercial/cost-related.

Mark has been very upset about my argument, which I do not understand.
ZPE is not on my radar, I must confess. I am waiting for a blip of evidence, 
not Sterling Allan type.
The Casimir-effect is a tiny effect, which eventually could turn our 
understanding of all-that-is completely around.

One interesting person I encountered was Robert Laughlin, the Nobel-Price 
winner, who argued that 'vacuum' actually  is dense, like glass.
But he seems to be a lonely voice, and the pity is, I do not understand that.

All the best
Guenter




 V ison: francis froarty...@comcast.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 14:19 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...
 

Guenter,
    We certainly don’t think anyone is “intentionally” creating 
efficent THZ pulses but there is a very difficult to reproduce anomaly in play 
which is why we historically vet suggestions like Mark’s with an open mind… we 
have slowly and painfully tried to fit different puzzle pieces into place only 
to find none of the traditional pieces fit – this site is dedicated to 
considering the more exotic possibilities when traditional explanations just 
don’t work. If you have read any of my posts you know I advocate a Puthoff like 
atomic model and share his opinions regarding vacuum engineering with a pinch 
of Jan Naudts relativistic explanation for hydrogen in a lattice being 
“equivalent” to hydrogen expelled from the suns corona at relativistic speed 
[without the need for high velocity spatial displacement – It is these 
relativistic anomalies created by the tubules or nano geometry that lend 
support to Mark’s suggestion
 as frequencies are up and down converted by direct manipulation of space-time 
via suppression / Casimir geometries. We know that many of these claims rest 
upon different methods of agitation that all seem to have properties that 
result in changing the geometry…when you are talking changes in distance based 
on 1/a^4 you can create huge swings in the Casimir value [dynamic Casimir 
effect ?] with very little energy –my pet theory being it discounts the amount 
of energy needed to disassociate any h2 to the point where more energy is 
released upon the reassociation at the new Casimir value than it takes in heat 
energy to cause the disassociation –harnessing this change in pressure when the 
motive force opposing the change in value is the random motion of gas [hup] 
would be a valid method to extract ZPE.
Regards
Fran
 
Bottom of Form
 
 
 
 
Thu, 26 Jul 2012 16:18:04 -0700
guys, whatever that is, do You really think that Rossi put something like that 
into real world commercial operation?
THz pulses with significant energy?
 
on a partial cost basis of say $100 of his ecat-3.
 
Sorry to say: You must be completely deluded and have not idea what technology 
is all about.
 
Did you ever build something slightly sophisticated?
 
If not, shut up and retreat to your cave or listen to people who did.
 
Citing something exotic does not make it operational,
 
Daily techno-gossip is full of crap like this.
 
GET REAL!
 
Very annoyed.
 
Plus: Dear Lou. If You cite crappy points from dkos, please elaborate.
I have no problem if You attack me directly.
I will respond accordingly. 
Please be warned!
 
Guenter

Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?

Peter,

You are a most honest person, to be sure.

WRT the relocation I have this to say:
DGT, see here:
...Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies (Global) Ltd. is based in Cyprus; it 
owns the contract signed with Rossi regarding the industrial secrets with right 
of first refusal to sell globally, except in the US. ...
This from an official paper of DGT.

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/White_Paper_DGT.pdf

Now the LEGAL location of DGT(G) has never been Greece, but a tax haven: Cyprus.


Relocating to Canada seems sort of strange.
The Harper government is all but friendly to alternative energies. It would 
basically kill the oil and gas industry of Canada.
So why incorporate someone, who potentially kills the golden goose?


This does not add up.!

Guenter




 Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:33 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?
 

In Canada anyway, we will know soon their new address.
It is a painful step for them, but necessary

Peter


On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

PDGT was allegedly funded by Greek expats living in Vancouver.  Is
this where they are moving?

T




-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?

Peter, Jed, 

I am very aware of possible positive effects of this move.

My main argument is probabilistic.
There are multiple reasons, multiple outcomes, which gets confusing at times to 
keep up with the book-keeping, so to say.
Any argument or evidence, which shifts the point of interest in 
probability-space is most welcome.

All the best
Guenter




 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 22:00 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
Relocating to Canada seems sort of strange.
The Harper government is all but friendly to alternative energies. It would 
basically kill the oil and gas industry of Canada.
So why incorporate someone, who potentially kills the golden goose?


You seem to be suggesting that the government of Canada can refuse to let them 
incorporate, because it does not want cold fusion to succeed. This makes no 
sense for two reasons:

1. The government has no say in the matter. It cannot refuse to allow an 
incorporation as long as the activities of the company are legal. There is 
nothing in the laws of any first-world nation that lets the government vet who 
can incorporate and who cannot. There are zoning laws and the like, but that is 
different.

2. There is little chance anyone in the Canadian government is aware of 
Defkalion, and no chance that anyone takes their claims seriously.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?

ok, Canadian immigration does not care, who immigrates.
1) On this level it is just about the rules.
Pay yor dough, be compliant. No problem here.

2) On a higher level, say Canadian secret service, it is about risk assessment.
They may very well be asleep at the wheel.

3) The next level would be DGT starting operations within CDN, which wakes up 
the institutions.

4) On the next higher level it gets political.

Even a moderate chess-player like myself could anticipate these moves.

If not, you are hopefully lost.

So what happens next?

5) Here we enter the domain of the probable, where I speculate, that the 
Harper-government would step in and limit DGTG-CDN-operations, as soon as it 
gets effective.

Considering this, DGT would be well advised to stay in Greece, where law and 
lobby-interests are weak, and not operate near the belly of the energy-beast, 
which will fight teeth and claw to prevent energy-revolution.

Probabilistic in the sense as: that a chess player enters the domain of moves, 
where nothing is certain, but (im-)probable.

Finally: Considering this, DGTs move seems to be a bad move to me.

But I might be wrong.
Such is probabilistic thinking.
The beauty: I will never be disappointed.
I just shift probabilities:

Guenter



 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 22:48 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:ICCF-17: Brillouin is no more?
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
I am very aware of possible positive effects of this move.


My main argument is probabilistic.

I am not sure what probabilistic means in this context. But in any case, your 
statement about how the Canadian government might refuse to allow an 
incorporation is nonsense. The law does not permit that.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:future of academic publishing

Eric,

having an old friend who is/was editor of two respected scientific journals, I 
have always had my quibbles with her.
That the peer-reviewing process is a thing of the past, and the profit journals 
make out of that, are just obscene.

If You are an editor, and are paid some sum for it, it is difficult to question 
the whole edifice.

Now the the leading publishers (Elsevier, Springer,...) seemed to overbid their 
hand.
The counterprocess is very slow, with the matemathicians being in the lead, and 
eg the Max Planck society encouraging its scientists to publish elsewhere.

Now we all know here, that something is rotten in the state of 'peer-reviewing'.
But there currently is no established alternative.

Science is an eminently hierarchical enterprise, with the reviewers and editors 
being some sort of grey eminence, which actually are not known by name.(The 
editors are, ofcourse, the reviewers not)  It is basically the editor and the 
advisory board, which determine who is the competent decider (reviewer)  wrt 
what is valuable in the field.
In ordinary life on would call that incest.

On the other hand, open access maybe a good thing, but adds confusion, and does 
not fit well with the established method of selecting the 'best', which is 
eminently hierarchical.


Guenter





 Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 9:04 Donnerstag, 26.Juli 2012
Betreff: [Vo]:future of academic publishing
 

Some recent developments in academic publishing are encouraging.  As people 
know, the UK is considering a bill that will require that journal articles 
reporting on government-funded research be provided to the public free of 
charge not long after they have been published.  I think there are similar 
efforts underway in the US, and the National Institutes of Health and 
institutions such as Harvard University have already taken steps in this 
general direction.  The Economist provides a nice report on the UK bill:

http://www.economist.com/node/21559317?fsrc=scn/tw/te/mt/broughttobook

In this context the arXiv preprint server is an interesting phenomenon.  Some 
people are putting papers up on arXiv for general feedback and then submitting 
to journals afterwards for the imprimatur.  It looks like phys.org is willing 
to go straight to arXiv for its coverage, as in the case of this paper on 
primordial black holes:

http://phys.org/news/2011-05-theory-black-holes-predate-big.html

That paper was eventually published in the International Journal of Modern 
Physics D (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2011arXiv1104.3796C). The sequence of 
events -- whether phys.org went to arXiv or first or noticed that the paper was 
to appear in the journal -- isn't clear and probably not all that important.  I 
suspect it's just a matter of time before self-publication on preprint servers 
becomes the de facto way of sharing experimental results and theoretical 
explorations.  Perhaps in the age of blogs and the twenty-four hour news cycle, 
there are pressures on scientists to get something out quickly in order to 
establish priority.  In my experience the papers on arXiv run the gamut of 
quality and conventionality.  Some papers are very conventional and 
professionally done, and others are basically notes covering theories that are 
sure to be highly controversial.  If arXiv has a quality control function, it 
appears to be quite permissive.

As more and more people around the world come online, these preprints and the 
free courses made available by MIT and Stanford and other universities could 
become an important part of the tertiary education of a large number of people. 
 This seems like another disruptive development whose consequences are hard to 
foresee.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:future of academic publishing

well, the basic idea to keep the reviewers secret is to avoid embarrassment 
between colleagues.
The editor at timmes gets some strange comments from the reviewers, which he 
has to keep confidential like a catholic priest the confessions of sinners, but 
ist is the other way round: It is the condemnations of the olympic gods of 
science, which are hidden to the prdinary humans, which is channeled down.
I happened to see some of those (emails), which at times are quite embarrassing.

Reviewers don't know about each other, only the editor knows.
So his sincerity is essential.
This is about ten years ago, and even if I could remember exactly, I would not 
tell, because somehow I belong to the cartel via friendship, if you will. ( I 
was not aware of the explosivity of this then. I was just amazed because I did 
not belong to the cartel, and my professional existence did not depend on it.)

The reputation of a journal depends on this confidentialty.

A very strange constellation indeed.


Upon writing this, I get conscious of that.
Self-soul-searching. You know what I mean.


Guenter



 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:55 Donnerstag, 26.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:future of academic publishing
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
(The editors are, ofcourse, the reviewers not)  It is basically the editor and 
the advisory board, which determine who is the competent decider (reviewer)  
wrt what is valuable in the field.
In ordinary life on would call that incest.

In ordinary business this would be called a violation of the antitrust laws, or 
a conflict of interest.

Publishing is ordinary business, so that's what I call it.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:intellectual property protection

Axil, interesting, but I did not read that.

Why?
Interesting question.
Because I do not believe that he 'rule of law' does apply on any important 
issue nowadays.
Just argue away the clause  'peacetime', and here You are.
Habeas corpus? Should I laugh?
Wrt to legal issues we fell behind the 1600's or 1300's to Your liking.
Read wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus#Origins_in_England

We are in an endless 'war' against 'terror'. Right?

So anything goes.

The rule of law is just a convenience nowadays, if it fits the issue. 
Emergency can be invoked any minute.

So don't be naive.

Guenter




 Von: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 22:00 Donnerstag, 26.Juli 2012
Betreff: [Vo]:intellectual property protection
 

Some interesting questions
about Rossi’s standings regarding intellectual property rights are:
 
Does Rossi have intellectual property
protection under the peacetime provisions of the invention secrecy act? 
...Assuming that the US is in a state of pease.
 
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/journals/btlj/articles/vol12/Lee/html/text.html
 
What can the DOD do to get duel
use LENR technology that they have innovated into the public sector? 
 
 
Cheers:   Axil

Re: [Vo]:Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

So whom do  YOU accuse? 

Please exactly posit point, which is nicely numbered,  and its corresponding 
syndrome here, as to the dkos-article.


I feel sort of  'accused', because I try to keep a critical mind.

As a starter:
I do not feel to be associated to any hive-mind of consenters or dissenters.
So what exactly is wrong with that?


Guenter

please explain.





 Von: pagnu...@htdconnect.com pagnu...@htdconnect.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 23:12 Donnerstag, 26.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
 
Excellent article, Jed

These are the tried and proven tactics the enforcers of conformity use to
discourage dissent.

I would love to see someone write a piece citing specific political
dialogues which illustrate these 25 ploys - there are lots of examples.

-- Lou Pagnucco

 Scroll down on this page:

 http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112509/-The-Gentleperson-s-Guide-to-Forum-Spies

 I think the first article is kind of silly, but I like the Twenty-Five
 Rules . . .

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...

guys, whatever that is, do You really think that Rossi put something like that 
into real world commercial operation?
THz pulses with significant energy?

on a partial cost basis of say $100 of his ecat-3.

Sorry to say: You must be completely deluded and have not idea what technology 
is all about.

Did you ever build something slightly sophisticated?

If not, shut up and retreat to your cave or listen to people who did.

Citing something exotic does not make it operational,

Daily techno-gossip is full of crap like this.

GET REAL!

Very annoyed.

Plus: Dear Lou. If You cite crappy points from dkos, please elaborate.
I have no problem if You attack me directly.
I will respond accordingly. 
Please be warned!

Guenter








 Von: pagnu...@htdconnect.com pagnu...@htdconnect.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 0:00 Freitag, 27.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:FYI: THz pulses can drive lattice vibrations directly...
 
According to this news item, THz radiation also induces ballistic current
flow in some semiconductors.

I am curious if this can occur in semiconductors containing, or in contact
with, hydrides.

The author has a number of papers in arxiv.org.

-- Lou Pagnucco

Mark Iverson wrote:

 Terahertz radiation can induce insulator-to-metal change of state in some
 materials

 http://phys.org/news/2012-07-terahertz-insulator-to-metal-state-materials.ht
 ml



 the researchers used an antenna-like structure called a split ring
 resonator to concentrate the electric field of a THz pulse in a small
 area,
 increasing the electric field from hundreds of kilovolts per centimeter to
 about 4 megavolts per centimeter.



 Is there anything about H-loaded metals with shallow fractures, or Ni
 tubercles, which might act like a split-ring resonator?



 .because THz frequencies match the resonant frequencies at which
 neighboring atoms and molecules in crystal lattices vibrate against each
 other, *THz pulses can drive the lattice vibrations directly*-possibly to
 large amplitudes. THz light can drive electrons and whole atoms and
 molecules far from their equilibrium locations in a crystal lattice, which
 can lead to phase transitions in electronic state and/or crystal
 structure.



 -Mark Iverson

Re: [Vo]:Too Big to Fail movie portrays institutional disaster

2012-07-25 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

...smart, good people?

smart, maybe. Good, NO way.

Henry Paulson was Goldman top brass for a long time, being CEO of GS from 1998 
to 2006.
Net worth: $700million.
A company where five managing directors call their clients muppets in the 
past year.
according to whistleblower Smith.
...Muppet is a British slang term for idiot... 
Read the story eg on wsj.

This is a pack of wolves in sheep's clothings, which they have to, because they 
have to maintain the ILLUSION OF BEING TRUSTWORTHY.

There is a negative selection going on here, as to who reaches the top, see 
Deutsche Bank Ackermann, Breuer, Jain, who are criminals not in the legalistic 
sense, but by common sense.

Non-bankers are kept in line by
 forward-corruption. See Clinton, John Mayor, Blair , Schroeder etc.
Clinton was by some $10 mio negative after Lewinsky, now he is worth some $70 
mio.
Why? Not because he is a honest person.

Enron was one of the rare cases, where this mindset was uncovered.
This is a closed system. You cannot get into the top brass of those structures 
if You don NOT have this mindset.
(Tis is different from mafia 'omerta', which applies to ALL members. )
It was two women who mainly did that. Think about that.

In times where the LIBOR is found to be manipulated by six major banks, with 
the consent of the FED and the Bank of England, I find it difficult to find 
some crumbs of -ahem- naive honesty among this lot.
Self-delusion is just one ingredient in the cocktail. The main being 
narcissism, as sense of grandeur and utter contempt for the ordinary folk.

Guilty until proven innocent.


Guenter
 



 Von: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 21:11 Mittwoch, 25.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Too Big to Fail movie portrays institutional disaster
 

Jed,

I realize they were not all bankers.  At least arrest the bankers for 
negotiating a worthless instrument(s)...

If they were a captain of a ship in the miliary that sank, they could call for 
their own court martial:
Most navies have a standard court-martial which convenes whenever a ship is 
lost; this does not presume that the captain should be suspected of wrongdoing, 
but merely that the circumstances surrounding the loss of the ship should be 
made part of the official record. Many ship captains will actually insist on a 
court-martial in such circumstances.










On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com wrote:


 They seem like smart, good people who accidentally brought about a disaster


They did it to make more money for themselves and the bank.


Well, not everyone in the story was a banker. Some were government officials. 
Paulson was an official who had been an investment banker. I get the 
impression he was an honest banker. He quit and sold his shares in Goldman 
before he became an official.


I am not excusing these people. I want to know how this happened. Why it 
happened. Greed and stupidity are the cause, but people have always been 
greedy and stupid, yet Wall Street seldom collapses catastrophically because 
of it. These explanations are not sufficient; there has to be more. I say 
the institution itself was dysfunctional. Paulson and the others were in over 
their heads. They did not realize how little they knew. They did not realize 
things were out of control.


 
 They were obviously ignorant to risk they created for everyone and we are all 
still paying for it and will be for years to come.  For that, they should have 
resigned, been fired or at a minimum demoted.


Many have been fired. Many lost their own money. One of the main characters in 
the movie, Fuld of Lehman Brothers, had shares of Lehman worth about $1 
billion. When Lehman declared bankruptcy his shares were worth $58,000.


Others made out like bandits, unfortunately.


I favor punishing the guilty, but we also need to find the root caused that 
allowed bad actors and fools to bring about the catastrophe in the first 
place. The same goes for every disaster, such as Fukushima and the wreck of 
the Titanic. On April 15, 1912 everyone in the world knew who was directly 
responsible for the Titanic disaster: Capt. Smith and his officers. But it 
went beyond that. The causes were deeper. People needed to reveal the causes 
and take steps to prevent this from happening again. That took a Congressional 
Investigation and many reforms and new regulations. Mainly, it took Sen. 
William Alden Smith, without whom the dead would have died in vain. There 
would have been many more preventable shipwrecks without him.


We need someone like that to clean up Wall Street. Unfortunately, all efforts 
to do so have been blocked by the bankers and the Republican Party. They seem 
determined to cause another disaster. That is predictable. In 1912, the 
shipping interests made a tremendous effort to stop Smith from investigating 
and reforming their industry. They

Re: [Vo]:Too Big to Fail movie portrays institutional disaster

2012-07-25 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Yeah,

therefore it is important to have the legislative and the jurisdictive on the 
payroll.

The fact that it is not corrected, tells You a lot about how rotten the 
'system' is.

Bill Black calls this whole syndrome within the financials 'control fraud', but 
it is bigger than that.

Think of  parasites. Why are they parasites, and what distinguishes them from 
symbionts?

Lots of them reprogram their host.

Just as an arbitrary citation:
http://m.animalplanet.com/s/4756/166?levelVal=2assetKeyVal=471003masterKey=monsterscatKey=monsters_howsubCatKey=childKey=

At the societal level it is mostly about hijacking society's essential memes.

I am quite astonished, that You, Jed, are not aware of that.

Having worked for about 7 years in behavioral physiology and biological 
cybernetics in an earlier life this is not news for me.


Guenter




 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 23:15 Mittwoch, 25.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Too Big to Fail movie portrays institutional disaster
 



Unfortunately, most of them were not committing any crime. CDOs were not 
subject to any oversight or regulations in 2008. You cannot make laws 
retroactive. That is unconstitutional.



Many of these people were called before Congress and raked over the coals. On 
the other hand, they were paid $50 million a year and they they got to keep the 
money.

This is infuriating. But what worries me about the future is that the problems 
have not been corrected.

Re: [Vo]:Too Big to Fail movie portrays institutional disaster

2012-07-24 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Don't know the movie, just read two comments by two people I value (sic!).
Barry Ritholtz and Matt Taibbi.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/05/review-hbos-too-big-to-fail/
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/andrew-ross-sorkin-gives-goldman-a-rubdown-20110607

Ritholtz is sort of neutral, whereas Taibbi has this to say:
...The Sorkin piece reads like it was written by the bank's marketing
department, which may not be an accident. In November of last year, the New
York Times announced that Dealbook was entering into a sponsorship agreement
with a variety of companies, including ... Goldman, Sachs.
...
So it seems to be unclear whether Sorkin actually wrote an elaborate piece of
propaganda, and I tend to side with Taibbi here, who has a lot of 'common
sense', as is one of Your topics.

Now the financial 'universe' seems to be constructed on different rules than
the physical one:
It is a human construct, based on belief, deception, self-deception and
factoids, dumb people and smart people.

(Cf the film Enron: the the smartest guys in the room, which I highly
recommend, to recognize what is going on in the heads of the players.)

What is shocking to me is, that 'hard' science wrt LENR seems to be so
off-track.

With the financial 'universe' not so much. It is one created by a bunch of
compulsive liars as being the 'Creator'.
And in this web of lies You are hopelessly lost.
The drive is making money (financial) , not knowing the 'truth' (physical),
whatever that maybe.
In this context I highly recommend David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural
Religion, which is a humorous as it is a classic.
The 'gods of the financial universe' to paraphrase Hume, were/are a deluded
bunch of idiots.
Regarding the physical universe, this is still an open question.

Guenter

Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Gesendet: 22:55 Dienstag, 24.Juli 2012
Betreff: [Vo]:Too Big to Fail movie portrays institutional disaster

I saw the HBO movie, Too Big to Fail, about the 2008 market crash. I
recommend it. It is a dramatization with actors. Based on what I have read
about the crisis it seems to be historically accurate.

Regarding this history I recommend the book The Devils are All Here.

I mention this movie here because in my view, the history of cold fusion has
been one long disaster caused mainly by dysfunctional institutions, especially
the physics establishment in the US. The two events are more similar than you
might think. Both took a long time to develop. Both are still happening. The
problems in the financial markets have not been solved. The closing scenes of
the movie show that they have not even been addressed in many ways.

Re: [Vo]:What the DOD gave to Rossi?

2012-07-24 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Axil,

Tungsten would be a whole new game in town.

Its main 'advantage' being that it would make Rossi's claims a bit more 
plausible.
My personal experience is:
Stick to what is working, and do not make major changes.

My major objection, based on a bit of common sense, still holds:
LENR is NOT a homogenous process and necessarily has its hot spots, far 
surpassing average temperature.
I think we a gree that 1000degC is dangerously close to recrystallization, 
which,
with Ni seems to be somewhere near 1120degC.
If this is correct, Rossi would have managed nearly perfect control of the 
process, leaving all his competitors in the dust.

Another aspect being: with a 'dry' process one cannot remove the process heat, 
so it would have to be a 'wet' process, where the cooling fluid is in direct 
contact to the reactant.

But in this case (wet process) all MY mental conceptions of the nature of the 
process break down.

Quite possibly I'm wrong, as an armchair theorist in the issue. Just assembling 
the laws of nature and the evidences to something possible.
Rossi has to deliver evidence, to prove me wrong.
Up to now he nearly did nothing of this sort.
Right now the probability that Rossi is a bigmouth with an illusion of grandeur 
is much higher than him actually delivering something.

Guenter



 Von: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:15 Dienstag, 24.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:What the DOD gave to Rossi?
 

IMHO, nickel micro-powder cannot
sustain reactor long term operating temperatures at 1000C without deteriorating
especially if copper is produced as a transmutation product.
 
Something has to give with
this concept and I believe it is the use of nickel as the reaction substrate.
 
Micro powder would be
retained as a way to maximize reaction surface area, but an element with a
higher melting temperature would need to be used to keep the micro powder
grains from sintering together into a congealed mess.
 
The use of tungsten is my
guess especially since Rossi states that he needs more x-ray shielding in his
new very high temperature system. Tungsten will produce that type of radiation
profile.
 


Cheers:  Axil

[Vo]:Thinking about Rossi

2012-07-24 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

With the announcement of ecat-3 by Rossi, I increasingly get the impression 
that he is sort of a suicide bomber on a global societal level, destroying the  
plants of hope, the LENR community has.

Focusing hope, making ridiculous claims, then: bang, it was just a joke.
Probability: 90%.

Is Rossi planning a career as a comedian, or is he simply deluded, or is he a 
stooge of the oil-industry, or does he -ahem- 'really' have something?

Just asking (myself).
Consider this as a set of probabilities.

Rossi's cascade of unsupported claims hints to the first set of options. 
Deluded: 60%.
Suicide or similar techniques of leaving the stage: 20%
Really have something: 0.x1% to 10%
Comedian, Uri Geller-type: 2%

Other: rest.

Guenter

Re: [Vo]:Italian E-Cat licensee

2012-07-23 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

as long we cannot have  a clear distance to the likes of Stirling Allan, who 
blabbers all sorts of nonsense on a daily basis, the field is in trouble.

I keep S.A. on my blogroll, just to diagnose, how deluded a person can get. 
Obviously he earns a living through that.

Behind his deluded reporting is quite a bunch of deluded actors, which, in 
communion, constitute a semantics of general delusion.
Quite interesting from a psychoanalytical point of view, but detrimental to 
the  LENR case.
S.A. seems to believe nearly everything, which seems to be his -ahem-  
business-model.
Quite annoying, that.


Guenter




 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 16:08 Montag, 23.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Italian E-Cat licensee
 

The e-catworld article says:

The commercial director and managing director of Prometeum is Aldo Proia, 
someone we learned a little about a few weeks ago when Rossi accidentally 
leaked his name on the JONP site.

Accidentally? I doubt it. Rossi often blabs and sometimes says outrageous 
things, but I sense his words are deliberate.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Cats for Sale

2012-07-22 Thread Guenter Wildgruber



...was just looking up when this rendering first came up.
I think it was around the beginning of 2012, with the old low-temperature-e-cat.

Please correct me, if I'm wrong,

Loking up e-cat at google images is actually funny.

https://www.google.com/search?q=e-cathl=enclient=firefox-ahs=On1rls=org.mozilla:de:officialprmd=imvnslsource=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=gUEMUNP0AqPNmAX-ka2CCgved=0CEsQ_AUoAQbiw=912bih=557

Through this I found a site I never visited.
See:

http://rossifocardifusion.com/e-cat-powered-motorcycle

His current post: 

http://rossifocardifusion.com/

This guy is genuinely funny.

Guenter






 Von: ***  Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 9:58 Sonntag, 22.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Cats for Sale
 

That’s the problem for me personally. No matter how much I know LENR is real, I 
still need to be convinced that LENR can produce the amounts of power being 
claimed by Andrea Rossi and Defkalion. To date we have not had one single 
properly INDEPENDENT test.  We’re up to our arses in renderings and websites 
with nothing of any substance……..yet.
 
From:Andrea Selva [mailto:andreagiuseppe.se...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012 5:50 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Cats for Sale
 
They got nice renderings tough. Are them for sale? 
2012/7/22 *** Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co
Maybe because there is no product that exists.

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012 9:40 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Cats for Sale

Sweden and Australia look to be taking prelim orders for units.  But
the Aussie site might be the dubious GW.

I wonder why we see no others?

T

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-22 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

...During the invasion of Iraq I saw a Pentagon schedule for a project to train 
people in Middle Eastern languages

Well, as far as I can remember, in the early pre-attack phase there were about 
7 people in the US who understood the Iraqi arab dialect.
But to UNDERSTAND, was not the agenda.
What it was: Your guess. 

Say: Project YOUR imagined way into difficult territory.

(Even if  --  as the saying in my small environment is: THEY(!) speak five 
languages, but do not know the way)


This ofcourse is a metaphor for understanding anything of deep complexity, as I 
suppose You imply.

In the proper context, the complex can be quite simple, even trivial.

Guenter




 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:07 Sonntag, 22.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots
 

Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:


In corporate engineering you notice that relative regression.
Data can be exchanged in seconds, designs can be simulated in days,
however the regulation has became so complex, the workflow so long, 
involving so many fearful executives, so higher executives, that things get 
slow, until all is technical and planed.
then it take 18 month.


That is a big problem. In the 1940s and 50s when the Air Force was flying the 
X-series aircraft, they implemented design changes in a matter of weeks that 
would take years nowadays. That was partly the lingering effect of WWII, when 
people made decisions rapidly.

During the invasion of Iraq I saw a Pentagon schedule for a project to train 
people in Middle Eastern languages. They were holding preliminary meetings, 
circulating plans and so on. It was going to take years before the first person 
sat in the first classroom. In comparison, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, 
the U.S. Army set up Japanese-language classes within a matter of weeks. Thirty 
years later I learned Japanese from some the people who set up those courses or 
learned from them.

Regarding Franklin and the speed of communication, I wonder if the Proceedings 
of the Royal Society for 1750s are on line? Franklin wrote to Collinson on Feb. 
4, 1751. It would be interesting to see how long it took Collinson to report it 
to the Society in their regular correspondence. I am pretty sure Collinson 
found this news important enough to report. It was probably the first time 
anyone was nearly killed by artificially produced electricity, as opposed to 
lightning.

In those days the Society proceedings resembled this forum rather than a modern 
journal. They were a catch-all discussion group for anything of interest to 
Natural Philosophy (science).

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-21 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Yes, I agree,

Nowadys it is nicely packaged in a photoshopped depiction of whatever, an can
be preordered there:

http://www.e-cataustralia.com/order-and-buy/domestic-10kw/

'Pre-Order your unit here.'

No obligation, no prepayment
Fill in the form below, and we
will list you in our database with your date of application, for our
first-come-first-served policy
10KW Home E-Cat Heating Unit
Estimated Price $2000-2500.00
Estimated 6 months re-fill cartridge cost $150
Estimated Lifetime 20 years
Easy to retrofit into existing water heaters and heating and cooling systems to
seriously reduce customers’ electricity and gas bills.

The price has gone up a bit, from 500$ and 10$ fillup, but we do not care about
bean-counters anyway.
The inventor (Rossi) managed to raise temperature output from 123.9degC as of
oct 2011 to some stable 600degC as of Q2/2012.
(
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284968.ece/BINARY/Temp+data+Ecat_6_10_11+%28xls%29
)

Quite a feat, right?
Don't know what about all those early adopters, who preordered a 150degC e-cat
for 500$.

That is progress, right? And progress is costly.

Meanwhille Rossi managed to memetise said photoshopped image of his creation,
and even sell it to some Australian licensee.

Will be interesting how this plays out.

Guenter

Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Gesendet: 3:55 Samstag, 21.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

LENR is a black swan. Assuming it can be commercialized, we have only the
vaguest sense of what it portends
Eric

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-20 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Bruno,
appreciate Your argument.

Commercial LENR would change the concept of 'value' big time.

But we live in a dialectical world. (sort of)

To abuse Hegel: Force-Counterforce-Resultant. (These-Antithese-Synthese)

Now consider:

The force (A)  would be LENR
The counterforce (B) would be the status quo of power and value.

Now (B) would try to neutralize (A), which it probably does, by carefully 
watching and acting behind the courtain.

But (A) is a midget,lacking funding, and can eventually easily bought off.

Consider a couple of billionaires, who buy up licenses from DGTG, if they prove 
to have a workable technology.

Things would not improve -- they would get WORSE on a middle/long-range 
perspective!

A a possible solution to prevent the worst, I see in: LENR being an open 
technology.

THIS would be the challenge!


In the hands of the (B)-'elite', nothing good would come out of that, I am 
afraid.

This is not about Your low cost water-boiler.

They soon would convince everybody to travel to Moon or Mars and other silly 
enterprises, just to keep their dominant share of the sudden abundance.


A lot more to ponder on that.

Guenter



 Von: Bruno Santos besantos1...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 10:31 Freitag, 20.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots
 

Hi!Cheers! World revolution is coming.

Re: [Vo]:Another Solar Firm Shuts Down

2012-07-20 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

well, Jed,

this is just a sane, realistic view.

Being rich more often than not is synonymous having insane views.
The source of their riches are luck, societal infrastructure, connections, 
inheritance, a moderately criminal mind, some genes, favorable rules (they 
mostly lobbied for).

Exceptions confirm the rule.

Old school?
Same as it ever was.


As a free mind You too are probably worried that the wrong people conquer the 
field of LENR, when it is ready to being commercialized.
Again.


Rossi once claimed being a humanist. His behavior does not quite confirm this.

DGTGs financials are in Cyprus, a tax haven.

Makes me suspicious.


Maybe greed actually leads to something good sometimes.
The chances are NOT 50:50, to abuse philosopher Frank Zappa, who himself, 
ironically, cared about money a lot.
But for him it was a means, not an end. So he is pardoned.


Enough said.
Guenter




 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:23 Freitag, 20.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Another Solar Firm Shuts Down
 

Worse than that! I am a rich guy.


...benefit from the government disproportionately.
...By the way, Fleischmann agrees with me on this issue. He is old school about 
economics. A member of the WWII generation.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology

2012-07-18 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Jed,
...This is a nuclear reactor...

we do not differ by much.

This (non)-demonstration would show how far they are wrt regulations.
Not far, I guess.
The regulatory procedures are quite different in say 100 countries, 30 of them 
maybe akin to 'first world'.
Who does it?
DGTG?
Probably not, up to now and not in tthe forseeable future.

The licensees?
Probably not, as long as they do not have deep knowledge. Which nearly by 
definition they cannot have.
40mio for 300k Hyperions is some real money.

Please understand my proposal as provocative.
DGT could do the presentation somewhere outside in an empty fabrication hall. 

This would be not all that exotic.

Promoting a device, which is claimed to be inherently save, must be 
demonstrated somehow.
How is ist done in the REAL world?
I honestly do not know. 
This is a boostrap-problem.

Peter Gluck advanced the issue considerably, but quite some mysteries remain. 

And he is an honest man, whom I respect a lot.

Is some vague association to WL-theory sufficient to please the doubters?
I doubt that.
There have been eg attempts to stop the CERN-LHC-Higgs-Boson experiment, 
because of the risk that black holes might be generated. The orthodox 
scientific community finally prevailed, because their theory seemed sound 
enough.
Orthodoxy 99.x% vs doubters 0.x%.


Now with LENR this is different: This is a 1%-issue against the 99% orthodoxy.

Does anybody believe that a contested issue like that conquers the world market 
in a storm?
I dont.

This is a complicated 'tri'alectic between practice-theory- society in the 
works.

DGTG has to go into the offensive here, if they have something substantial, 
with some quirks like (from Peter)

...
Radiation measurements:The experimental situation is excellent: no
dangerous radiation!
However, there is some radiation emitted. I have seen a lot of measurements
performed both with NaI spectrometer and Geiger Muller counter and all confirm
that a somewhat higher level appears only at triggering. The gammas have a
relatively low energy, 50-300 keV. The maximum levels are under those
internationally admissible.Is this a proof that the W-L mechanism (gammas
converted to IR photons - is true and at work? We will see it soon.
...


Well. They cannot, but they must have SOME theory! 

This is up to the scientific community to decide, which cannot decide if the 
process is nondisclosed and therefore cannot be not understood/ reproduced. F/P 
reloaded.
Every society must have an underlying belief, which, in our case is the 
scientific method, which is deeply challenged by LENR.
Unresolved.


A tricky situation.

(please note: my arguments are probabilistic, not yes-no. There are black swans 
out there. But riding one of those rare creatures is a difficult issue indeed.) 


Guenter




 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 23:34 Dienstag, 17.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:

The simplest thing would be to show  a working Hyperion during the two days. 
not disclosing anything.
It would be  easy to set up such a demonstration, because their claimed COP is 
above any doubt, and this is not a milliwatt isue!
Just make coffee or tea with the Hyperion...
THIS would be a demonstration! 

Physical!

I do not think any first-world government would allow a demonstration of this 
nature in a conference hall. I do not think the device has not been tested by 
the Korean version of UL or by any government safety agency yet. In the modern 
world, you cannot just run a kilowatt-scale power reactor in front of a group 
of people in a public space. This is not 1850.

This is a nuclear reactor. It will have to be carefully, extensively tested 
before it can be used in public. It will be tested in fully equipped 
laboratories first. Even if it was a new kind of combustion reactor you could 
not set it up and run it in front of a crowd of people without first getting a 
license and inspection. You can't even run a conventional boiler in an 
apartment building basement without that!

Modern life is filled with red tape. Everywhere you turn there are rules and 
regulations about every last little thing. Read history, and you will see the 
wisdom of this. Life is safer and better thanks to all these rules. But the 
rules are aggravating.

Your expectations are highly unrealistic.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology

2012-07-17 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Well, guys, I am astonished at this sudden outburst of comments on the issue.

First, I keep Peter in high regard as a honest person.

Second we are ssem to be looking forward to ICCF-17, and what DGTG has to say.

Weaseling out could be
a) DGT makes a poster-sesson
b) to hide behind commercial secrets. We cannot show, because...

The simplest thing would be to show  a working Hyperion during the two days. 
not disclosing anything.
It would be  easy to set up such a demonstration, because their claimed COP is 
above any doubt, and this is not a milliwatt isue!
Just make coffee or tea with the Hyperion...
THIS would be a demonstration! 

Physical!
At least the e-cat/hyperion THEN will be a physical device as it is supposed to 
be, and not an internet chimera.


I understand Jojo's bitterness and suspicion.
It is also mine.

Consider DGTG saying:

...Please excuse, we tried, but S-Korean-import-rules did not allow us to 
bring the Hyperion... or some similar bullshit.

Assign a probablity to that?
Anybody's guess. 1% to 99%.

Here we are, why we are so excited. Because there is such a vast divergence of 
probabilities.


Peter's assessment (and Peter is not infected by Alzheime'rs disease -he is 
most reaonable and insigthful, I am sure) makes me a bit more optimistic.
We'll see.

Guenter




 Von: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 21:01 Dienstag, 17.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology
 

JoJo I can understand your feelings toward DGT.  

 
Exit stage left.
 
Dave  
##

-Original Message-
From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 17, 2012 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology


Dave, I appreciate your comments.
 
My opinion of DGT was heavily influenced by one of the earlier Xanthoulis 
interviews 

Respect for DGT will come when they start acting and doing things that will 
earn them respect.  Like behave honestly, for a change.
 
Why do I despise DGT so much?  Because I despise dishonesty and dishonest men.  
Is Rossi right to call these folks snakes and clowns? ... you betcha.
 
Is Rossi acting dishonestly also?  You betcha.  But at least Rossi did not 
steal anyone's ideas or stabbed anyone in the back.  Rossi is just acting to 
protect his interest.  And he has provided proof, albeit not the proof that 
pseudo-skeptics would like.

 
Jojo
PS. 70% chance they will withdraw from ICCF17.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III

2012-07-15 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

thank You,
may I call You 'friends'?

There are tough times ahead, and I feel responsible.
Building our future on a possible chimera would be one of the worst things we 
could do.
Boneheaded realists, phantasts, artists ... all have their role to play..
Whether we are a self-correcting lot -as 'humanity' or as 'vortex-gang' - is an 
open issue and requires continuous effort from all of us.
(Consider this: the Chinese playing Go, the western countries playing chess. 
There is no agreed set of rules on a world scale, and rules and games 
interpenetrate. The 'winner' in such a case is the one with the more basic set 
of rules. No hierarchy in Go. Black is black and white is white. This is a deep 
issue!)


LENR is too important an issue to not consider the probability that there are 
players in the game who play by completely different rules.
To this I tried to give attention.

Subtlety is not easily transported via the internet.

Suddenly finding oneself like a deer in the spotlights is about the worst which 
can happen.
As said: One can assign ANY probability to this, but it definitely is not zero.


Guenter




 Von: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 4:53 Sonntag, 15.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
 
At 06:39 PM 7/14/2012, you wrote:
 I would think GW would associate Cohen's Everybody Knows with Rossi and 
 LENR:

Geez, is a real conversation starting up here on Vortex? Who would've thunk it?

[Vo]:Karl May vs Rossi

2012-07-15 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

This is a
topic I repeatedly had my quibbles with Jed already.
I find the analogy  -- May-Rossi -- appropriate
and interesting,  he not.

Now this is not something to be decided in a duel, but the community at large
should and has to.

As a boy, aged 11-13, I read read about 50 of May's 60 or so of his books.
Some where censored of sorts. The last one I read: 'die Herren von
Greifenklau', which was sort of a puritan wet dream of an unearthly mystical
love affair, which deeply shapes a young adult's conception of 'love'.
Not a bad thing.

Each of his books about 500 pages. 
I was deeply impressed, which somehow explains the German mindset even nowadays
wrt American Indians and the Muslim world, which is deeply romantic and has a
deep positive affection despite all the politicians arguing against. Not an
easy task. Therefore I values Karl May despite his outrageous claims.

Now Karl May, who spent quite some time in prison for trivial reasons, actually
BELIEVED what he wrote.
This is the strange aspect.
Later in his life he tried to reassure to himself, after accusations, that his
phantasy  matched his imagination.
This is such an extraordinary case of inversion of backward reasoning, that I
advise everybody to study the case.

Now Rossi seems to be a similar case, albeit on a smaller scale.

(if you want to understand parts of the undercurrents of the German soul, which
is seriously deformed now, read Karl May. But us Germans should take care of
that, because this is a difficult issue for foreigners to understand. 25 000
pages of myth is a lot, and probably not worth the effort to understand the
soul of a compromised nation. In contrast, reading eg Ayn Rand is nearly
impossible for non-Us-citizens without a cleaning vomit. But the american soul 
seems to digest this
without problems.
THE CLEANUP OF ALL THOSE PILES OF BULLSHIT, EVERY NATION GENERATES, IS THEIR
PREMIER DUTY !)

In the case of Karl May: He had millions of believers in his time who believed
in his tales.
And he himself too!
This is most astonishing! Karl may had a difficult time when visiting Egypt, to 
match the reality he encountered to his fantasy, which was much moore vivid
Which lasted for some 100 years until now, including my humble boy-self, until
'I' finally woke up, and said: Hey! This is a wonderful dream, but where are
we?
'I' in apostrophes, because 'I' am just an agent of belief.
Understand?

His -Rossi's- 'land of belief' is commercializable LENR.
Karl May had his 'Silberbüchse', a rifle which the operator shot right into the
middle of the opponents head, from 1000 feet distance. His believers were
excited and somehow enlightened, went home, where their cold room at home
warmed up by the power of belief. Not lasting long.
Karl May finally showed his fake rifle at presentations, but never put it to
work.

Careful scientific analysis showed that this was impossible.
The rifles and pistols  of our western heroes were so poorely designed, that
they rarely targeted a sparrow in 30feet distance.

Do You see a resemblance?

Now change the scene:
The propensity of Germans to belief in LENR currently  is round about zero.
Why? 
Because their belief is adjusted to solar and wind, which is based on a
completely different worldview.
Which is so ,because  there is s a peculiar blend between romanticism and
rational belief, where the 'rational' is sort of a partisan, which infects the
mind as a belief, or a meme.
As long as it helps the case, I am content with that.

So I claim sort of a super-rationality for myself, which is a difficult issue.

Then:  BELIEF is the ultimate
healer of inconsistency, right?

Guenter

[Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III

Part III:

now the conspiracy:

Thesis:
Rossi is actually an agent, to ultimately prove the ridiculousness of LENR.

Let us add some indications:
1.1) No coworkers of Rossi are known. Except his wife.
1.2) Rossi moves a lot, mainly from Italy to the US and back
1.3) his known facility is a big empty hall with a container inside
1.4) Rossi in the past had some failed operations (see wikipedia   'Andrea 
Rossi') where he missed his claims by a factor 100
1.5) Rossi seems to be a moderately rich man, definitely not being able to 
spend 10s of mio$ out of his own pocket
1.6) Rossi does not attend LENR conferences, where he could present 
intermediate results.
He is mainly an internet persona with spurious contacts to the real-world 
outside the blathersphere
1.7) Rossi claims a 600degC/1000$ ecat2 after a 200degC/500$ ecat1 a bare 6 
months ago, which he never convincingly demonstrated
1.8) Rossi is not your usual fraud. He collects preorders, but does not charge 
anything
1.9) Rossi is a busy and energetic man, working 14-16hrs a day, according to 
his own statements
1.10 ...

All in all this is a strange set of admittedly vague evidences, which 
nevertheless need some roundup.

--
First question:

Where does the money for Rossi come from?
Powerful interests with deep pockets? The US military being the main suspect by 
many.
Could be. But then he would have NO need to talk so much in the blathersphere. 
Quite the contrary.
His argument once was that he is a true humanist, a benefactor of humanity at 
large. Fine.
But why then should he be affiliated with the US-military? A truly destructive 
force. 
When and why did he sell his soul?

At the bare minimum Rossi is a one-man show with a mechanics-shop in his 
neighourhood, two rental spaces in Italy and Florida, the rent of a container, 
a couple of fake-companies, some patents issued and rejected, traveling 
expenses, some professors in retirement plus some easily fooled reporters, plus 
an internet connection and a lot of time to make phony talks to his believers.
Did I forget something? Probably.
Oh, I forgot: A big ego and a big mouth, which easily blend together.

All in all Rossi appears as a cheap conman, if he sticks to the minimum. I 
guess 1mio$/yr suffice to make up for his expenses, and having a good meal 
every day at a pizzeria.

--
Second question:

What do the (US) intelligence-agencies know?
Considering that the NSA, the CIA and other intelligence operations, who are 
routinely involved in spying on commercial operations worldwide, will have 
spotted Rossi/Leonardo long ago, so that he must be transparent to those 
institutions. 
Rossi (and DGT by the way) do not have the means to prevent that. Rarely a 
secret could be held. ALL of his purchases of nanomaterials etc would be 
tracked and every person meeting Rossi would be known.
We do not hear anything about that, because, well, it is all secret, we make 
believe ourselves, discarding logic in favor of hope.

The socalled captains of industry of the likes of Exxon (who sponsor Craig 
Venter, btw, see eg 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/14/green-algae-exxon-mobil ) 
definitely are informed by the commercial arm of the agencies.
European companies seem to know about that, whereas the majority of Americans 
still seem to believe in the magic of the free market.

--
Third question:

Why has Rossi not been switched off? 
Or is he eventually being promoted by dark channels?
Answer: 
Because he serves a goal, which is, to discredit the field of LENR and 
basically cut it off for another couple of decades from proper funding, which 
it desperately needs.

Even common sense and some basic calculations, which I tried to make, show that 
Rossi is making borderline claims, more often than not crossing into the 
outlandish.
There must be some method in this madness.


---
Afterword:
There are a lot of interesting people in the vortex-list, who excel in creative 
speculation, and I like that.
Being a maverik is one thing, being a fool another.

To repeat:
I think LENR is real, but not as Rossi/DGT make us believe.

Thank you for reading this and stay alert!

All the best


Guenter

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III

Jojo,
pretending, mimikry and (self-) decepiton are part of the gene-pool, developed 
for wahtever reason by evolution.
As conscious beings we have to fight this.

Sure, any trickster gets a lot of attention. Even Uri Geller got the attention 
of Richard Feynman.

...
Because a good magician can do something shouldn't make you right away jump to 
the conclusion that it's a real phenomenon. 

—Richard Feynman

Feynman went into some lengths in arguing that a true scientist should bend 
over, to reveal his weaknesses, ready to be criticised any moment. 

short version: http://www.ar-tiste.com/feynman-on-honesty.html


But this is not the ethos of the businessman or the fraudster, ofcourse, if 
there is one.

In this sense, Rossi is not a honest man, but belongs to the shady underworld 
of pretenders, who should be treated as such.

Guenter




 Von: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 15:48 Samstag, 14.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
 

 
There's only one hole with your conspiracy theory, 
and it's a hole you can drive your Mack Truck thru:
...Rossi should be immediately 
removed with extreme prejudice from the human gene pool.  
 
Why?
 
Simply this;  Rossi has singlehandedly done 
what all the previous Cold Fusion/LENR has not been able to do.  That is, 
to increase awareness and acceptability of LENR over a broad range of 
audiences.
 
If he is an agent trying to discredit LENR, he is 
doing a very very very lousy job.

 
Jojo

[Vo]:Is LENR easy?



At times I thought so.
Actually it seems like child's play with  MIT, Pirelli-high-school and such.

To assemble some experiment on high-school level seems to be standard procedure 
nowadays, still largely ignored by the mainstream of scientists. To their own 
detriment and ultimate blame.

Another thing is large-scale application with considerable power and high COP, 
which seems equally embarrassing, and rightfully is termed the 'holy grail'.

There is none, and in the forseeable future there will not be one.
Rossi/DGT are trapped in (self-)deception.

People dreaming of transmutations and such just do not do the numbers. Their 
dreams are just as outrageously besides the point as that of the complete 
deniers.

We are talking about grams, not tons, which is a mere factor of 1e6, which 
seems to escape the average housewive, which should know better, because she 
has to put the garbage out, not her internet-afflicted spouse, who reflects on 
the big solutions in a mental/physical vacuum of vain speculation, unaware of 
any numbers, which partake in constituting reality, which will be hard hitting 
to the surprise of some.

(Sounds complicated? Yes, because it is.)

The way to go is tedious investigation of the goings-on, which is painful, 
longlasting and hard.

Optimists and pessimists be warned.
This is neither an easy way, nor a futile one.
Maybe the way is shorter than in hot-fusion, but easy it will be not.

Guenter

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III

Yes, Steven, You never know.

the net makes us paranoid, even to the extent that even I myself do not know 
anymore if I myself am my worst enemy.

I prefer company which stays away from the net, just to have some contact to 
'the real world'.
At times I think:
They are clever enough to operate an iPad and I should  teach them.

But then again. I probably loose more than I win. So I keep them in a natural 
state of delusion about the modern world, and thereby stay in contact with the 
flowers and the bees and such, which they are so attached to, and I have my 
pleasure and -ahem- emotional profit.


Guenter




 Von: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 17:03 Samstag, 14.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
 

From Gunter:
 
…
 
While I’m at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his 
own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I 
hit the reply button from one of Gunter’s vortex-l posts my replies are 
automatically sent to Gunter’s personal email address, not Vortex. I have come 
to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on 
Gunter’s part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general 
public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one’s 
personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious 
agenda! ;-)
 
Have you ever tried to herd cats?
 
Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III

Eric, at the risk of deviating from the issue, here is one prominent example of 
an INDIVIDUAL named Richard Kaplan, author of An Empire Wilderness: Travels 
into America’s Future (1998), deconstructed by JM Greer, who shoud be termed a 
national treasure of american thought.
See:
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.de/2012/07/distant-sound-of-tumbrils.html

As a nonnative speaker of the american language I am struck by the elegance and 
deepness of thought, which JMG shows.

Here he addresses Richard Kaplan as a concrete person, who dared to encounter 
to bridge the gap between the abstract and the concrete, and, as JMG rightly 
elaborated, understood exactly nothing.

A cautious tale:
Please value Your treasures. JMG being one of them. This I say from a distance.
Kurzweil being a disgrace in comparison, with poor logic. 

Having a terminal disease, what exactly does he do to ascertain his immortality?
Just asking. Deepfreeze? Ha!

This despite that I suspect that transhumanists are the majority here.

But someone must be the minority, right?  Here I am.


I am not your everyday cornucopian, as you probably noticed. More like 

http://xkcd.com/1007/, having a bitter laugh at some follies of my compatriots 
in the journey into the uncertain.


Guenter




 Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 18:03 Samstag, 14.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
 


Being a naive American, I'm given to baseless theorizing and am willing to 
believe anything my government tells me. So I appreciate random speculation.

But when we're talking about people, especially living ones, we should ground 
any discussion in solid, demonstrable facts, and avoid accidentally sliding 
into character assassination.

Eric

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2012, at 7:19, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:


Jojo,
pretending, mimikry and (self-) decepiton are part of the gene-pool, developed 
for wahtever reason by evolution.
As conscious beings we have to fight this.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III

Abd ul,

I am posting here with my real name, but who knows if that is true?
The liar's paradox, which became a serious problem with the net. 

Who is who and who is telling the 'truth'?
Only personal acquaintance or a serious, consistent dedication to a topic can 
tell.

eg I have now doubt that YOU are a genuine seriously thinking honest person, 
like Feynman is.

Now wrt to me, I try to be seriously questioning person with a funny bend. 
Often not even knowing myself when what is what.
Sometime I wake up in the morning asking myself David Byrne's questions:
...

You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
You may find yourself in another part of the world
You may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife
You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
You may ask yourself, how do I work this?
You may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?
You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house
You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful wife
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever 
was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever 
was.
...
Byrne is a seriosly funny person.
And I doubt Rossi qualifies.


Interesting in another sense, that Byrne bends time into something circular, 
which most artists do.
Groundhog day.

Scientists and all sorts of apocalyptics do NOT. 

Start-stop. Linear time.


Guenter







 Von: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 0:16 Sonntag, 15.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
 
I don't know if Guenter Wildgruber is *his* real name, but Mark_-ZeroPoint most 
certainly is not a real name. But I'll happily apologize if it is.

Mark, here, speculates on something, along with SVJ, about Guenter's mail, that 
makes some crazy assumptions.

If you hit a reply to an actual vortex-l post, what happens to the reply 
depends on, not only the list settings, but also your own email program's 
settings. It has little or nothing to do with the original email. If the mail 
is echoed through the list, it will have a Reply-to header supplied by the list.

If you look at the headers from his mails, they look quite like headers from 
other mails.

However, how do we know that a mail is from the vortex list? If you only rely 
upon the [Vo] in the header, you could be easily misled.

Some people do send mails to both the list and the individual. That could 
easily be done by the user who originates the mail. A mail that was cc'd to the 
individual, as well as sent to to the list, if the individual replies to it, 
will behave exactly as described.

I don't see a cc in Guenter's mails to the list, but he might be bcc'ing the 
private emails of some. That would produce the same effect for those people. 
Again, people might do this to suppress further cc's being sent, but to notify 
an individual that a mail has been sent to the list.

Embarrassing, messages like this, assuming a nefarious reason for something 
quite ordinary, don't you think?

None of this has any bearing on the cogency of the alleged Rossi conspiracy. 
As with most Matters Rossi, we don't have enough information to do more than 
flap the meaning-making machine, which can churn out endless speculations. I 
think Guenter was just having fun. He seems to have some level of grasp of the 
situation, more than can be said for many others.

At 12:57 PM 7/14/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
 SVJ wrote:
 “While I’m at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his 
 own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever 
 I hit the reply button from one of Gunter’s vortex-l posts my replies are 
 automatically sent to Gunter’s personal email address, not Vortex. I have 
 come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage 
 on Gunter’s part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general 
 public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one’s 
 personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious 
 agenda! ;-)
 
 I think you’re onto something, Steven!
 
 In another rambling post, Guenter goes on about how adept he is with 
 technology and wondering whether he should teach his non-techy friends how to 
 use an iPad, but yet, he can’t even configure his email client to ReplyTo: 
 the proper vortex-l address… there would only seem to be two possibilities… 
 1. His computer skills are what he implies, quite

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two

2012-07-13 Thread Guenter Wildgruber



Fact is, that Mats Lewan's last article on CF/LENR in NyTeknik dates to 
28-Feb-2012
http://www.nyteknik.se/tjanster/sok/

Here are his affiliations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matslewan

on his personal blog there is one additional entry from 28-April:
http://matslew.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/defkalion-posts-job-listing-for-21-professionals/

(My comment on this is, that a job-offer like this does not imply that a 
company is actually hiring. Maybe they just want to give the impression that 
they do.
Bonus effect: It costs them exactly nothing, and they can scan the field.)

Here he also states:
...At Ny Teknik, we’re following the development closely and we will come back 
with further reports as soon as there’s more confirmed data available...

So I am factually WRONG that Lewan is not affiliated with NyTeknik anymore, and 
had to 'resign', and indeed he writes on a variety of issues there:
http://www.nyteknik.se/ovrigt/redaktionen/mats_lewan/

So shame on me on this one.


Fact is also, that NyTeknik is not publishing anything re CF/LENR since 28-Feb.

Sorry, I could not find the reference anymore, that there have been some 
discussions inside NyTeknik re CF/LENR-reporting, so I should not make such 
claims just from memory.
But zero reporting on a seemingly hot issue should make one think, right?

Guenter



 Von: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 0:36 Freitag, 13.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two
 

I agree with Jed here…
 
Guenter wrote:
---
“Mats Lewan from Nyteknik had to resign because of what? 
  Sloppy bullshitting.
 
  “Since the elimination of M.L. from Nyteknik staff, all LENR reporting 
stopped.
   Why?
-
 
Guenter wrote these not as questions, but explicit statements as if they were 
fact… shame on you!!!
 
Perhaps a web search of 'LENR Nyteknik'returned nothing, but a web search of 
Nyteknik and Lewans would have shown that he was still publishing articles as 
Jed so easily pointed out.  This list certainly engages in plenty of 
speculation, but most people will write in such a way to make it clear its 
speculation.  When it comes to speculations about a person (as opposed to 
science/technology), you dam well better make sure you state that it is 
speculation… or else do the necessary checking to make sure you have the facts 
behind you.
 
-Mark
 
 
From:Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:20 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two
 
Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
Wether Mats Lewan has the mental acuity to decode what is going on, is an open 
isue to me.
 
I have no doubt he has sufficient mental acuity.
 
 
Lewan could not make his case convincingly, and made some grave errors of 
judgement, as far as I can see.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, on a factual basis.
 
Errors of judgement are a matter of opinion. Your statements regarding matters 
of fact are wrong. Lewan is still writing there. His article are still on file. 
He has not retracted, and neither has Essen, Kullander or any of the others. 
Consider yourself corrected.
 
People such as Essen know a great deal more about energy than you do, and much 
more about the Rossi device. So I expect they are right, and you are 
technically wrong about the claims, as well as factually wrong about Lewan's 
employment status.
 
Unless you have specific information that Lewan is not longer writing for 
NyTeknik, you should not claim he has been fired. I think such unfounded rumors 
are inappropriate here.
 
- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two

2012-07-13 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

20120714  00:04

Some thinking about Rossi's recent claims.

ref: recent Interview  2012-07-12
http://www.freeenergysystems.com/Andrea_Rossi_Discusses_The_E-Cat_Part_1/
http://www.freeenergysystems.com/Andrea_Rossi_Discusses_The_E-Cat_Part_2/

(Sterliing Allen and his crew are in my department of -ahem - 'funny 
characters', and should be symptomatic, that Rossi enters an extended 
conversation with these.)


Here Rossi claims that his 600degC home-ecat is 12x12x6 inch, which is about 
the size of his generation1 e-cat.
It is refilled after 6 months by a cheap cartouche.
Let us assume that it is the size of a tube with 10inch x 2inch diameter, 
containing mainly several grams of specially treated Nickel, plus maybe some 
magic sauce. 
No H2 or D2 inside, which would have to have a tricky release mechanism, and 
stand temperatures of 600degC over 6months.
Where the H2/D2 comes from, he does not explain. 
H2 is very difficult to contain for a lengthy period of time, and much less so 
at elevated temperatures.

anyway.

Let us loook at the thermodynamics:
It must be actually the inside of the tube, where heat-generation happens, with 
an order of magnitude of 10kW, which seems to be Rossi's standard of measure.

Now how do You get all this heat out?
Good question.
Everybody with a PC under his table, and opened it, would see a big cooler on 
top of the CPU, with its dimensions such that the silicon temperature is below 
say 80degC, with a temperature source (the silicon) producing say 100W.
The 'magic' here is, that there is a series of thermal resistancesin between 
the heat-source and ambient. it is measured by degC/W. a typical value being 
here 0.3degC/W for the cooling beween silicon and ambient.
So for the silicon to be below 80degC, producing 100W, the cooler has on its 
output 80-30=50degC.
You get the idea.

Now with the e-cat it is similar:
You have a heat-producing core, and want to deliver the maximum to a 
'consumer', which is a thermal sink.

Delivering 10kW/600degC to the 'consumer' of the system, means, the core must 
be hotter than the 'consumer', right?
Question is: how much?
Thankfully this is open to very basic mathematics/thermal analysis, where 
several parameters can be varied.

Now 10kW is a 100times the power dissipation of your high-performance-CPU under 
Your desk, which you rarely care and feed for as long as it does what it is 
supposed to.

How does this play out?

Suppose You want to keep the reactor-core below 1000degK, delivering 600degK to 
the 'customer', there is a difference of 400degK, which has to be managed.

This computes to 4e2degK/1e4W= 0.04 degK/W, which is an EXTREMELY hefty value.
I do not know of ANY system which only remotely could perform that feat.

(Btw, this is extremely optimistic. In practice, in a hot system like that, 
parameters are not stable.) 


Now you can call me a stubborn ignorant conservative idiot or whatever.
I just do'nt believe that.
I would have swallowed that with a 200degC e-cat, but NOT with a 600degC 
device, which is --combining this with my firm conviction that the process is 
inherently INHOMOGENOUS-, a deadly combination.

With that it should seem to be obvious even to the most hopeful, that Rossi is 
a phantast, probably worse. A stooge who sold his soul to sinister forces. (I 
try to explain later how this strange issue could be logically resolved.Some 
probability attached, ofcourse.)

Anybody raised on software-diet or tendering a garden as his main business can 
be fooled by that, and because Americans- sorry folks- prefer being happy to 
sad, tend to believe that BS.

My third installment on this issue is still missing, and I have to make some 
finetuning on it, not to be blamed as a nutcase, and probably makes somebody's 
hair stand up, who believes that a splendid future is just around the corner.

Beg Your pardon.

To repeat: I believe that LENR is true, just not as Rossi/DGT claim it to be.

Guenter




 Von: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 10:30 Freitag, 13.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two
 

Hi Guenter:
There isn’t much new, verifiable news to report, so why waste reporter 
resources when there are all kinds of technology and science developments going 
on?  Nyteknik reports on all kinds of things, so there is much to keep it 
busy…  I don’t think it’s much of a surprise that Nyteknik has not published 
any LENR articles since Feb… don’t read more into it than there is.
-m

[Vo]:Rossi conspiracy-- Three parts

Part ONE



The S Korea ICCF17-symposium approaching, plus some soon to be revealed 
'breakthroughs'  by Rossi/DGT, we should consider other optional realities, as 
improbable as they may be.
Probability being in the eye of the beholder.

Now to repeat: I think LENR is real, but have some doubts wether it is anything 
near a commercial level.

'Commercial' being something comprising 
a) useful (power 1kW, COP 6) and 
b) affordable, and 
c) safe.


Respectable people including freshmen at MIT and Italy could reproduce LENR 
with little residual doubt wrt the effect in general.
Output power is consistently low, in the mWatt to say Watt level.
The argument seems to go something like: demonstrate the principle, not 
commercial aspects.
ALL demonstrations of this type show an effect, but not on a commercial level!

Now several companies claim to bridge the gap from effect TO EVERYDAY USE:
1) Rossi
2) DGT
3) Brillouin
4) Blacklight power
5) Nanospire
6) others ... put Your favorite claimant in here.

 (Note: Sterling Allan eg is one of those persons who are endlessly optimistic, 
and I just read his strange findings,  to somehow understand his type of state 
of mind, which is completely alien to me.) 

How credible are those claims 1-.6?

What evidence did they show?

What are their claims exactly?

Note how different (1-3) from (4) and (5) is:

 (4), Randell Mills is quite a maverick, maybe a genius, kicking out a 
2000-page epitome to rewrite the fundamentals of physics. Admirable of sorts.

Compare this to eg 'Ramon Lull', also a very strange genius.

 (5), LeClair is not a physicist, and only has little theory, as far as I can 
see,  except the effects of cavitation, which very well could produce strange 
effects, including local fusion, with transmutations and dangerous emissions of 
radioactivitiy of all sorts Not your decent e-cat, which you want to have in 
Your living room.

(3) Brillouin, is somewhat in between, and claims to have some sort of an 
activation method, which is basically some electronic feat, which is naturally 
not disclosed in sufficient detail.

'We are in it for the money', right?

(1),(2), Rossi and DGT, being the most fervent claimants to date, obviously 
have a common root, which dates back to the work of Piantelli/Focardi , who at 
times seemed to be sympathetic to this strain of development of Rossi,, but 
currently keep some distance, as far as I can see.
Note that Piantelli seems to have a difficult time collecting some 50k to 100k$ 
to advance his case.
Same with Brillouin, with a bit more money asked for.

Maybe you ask yourself, as I do: 
Why is that? 

Rossi and DGT do not seem to have this financial difficulty at all!
Are they so far ahead as they claim, or could there be another cause?

Next: Part TWO.

[Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two

Rossi conspiracy, part TWO.

Here I concentrate on Rossi/DGT, which somehow seem to be joined at the hip.


The genealogy seems to be clear: Piantelli/Focardi - Rossi - DGT

Rossi improved on P/F, then DGT stole something and improved, then Rossi 
improved.

Here we are: the 600degC solid-state e-cat.

Remember: Rossi never proved anything!
Whoever believes differently: please show the evidence! 
There is none of any validity!


Mats Lewan from Nyteknik had to resign because of what? 
Sloppy bullshitting.


Since the elimination of M.L. from Nyteknik staff, all LENR reporting stopped.
Why?
Ask yourself.

Rossi, without a doubt is a master of pretending.

But he is approaching some limits, which are timed to about 9/2012.
Rossi, I am sure, has nothing to offer but vague socalled 'evidences', 
transmitted via various internet channels.
Somebody respectable must stand up, not only National Instruments, which 
currently seems to be ridiculing itself.

(Note: I know NI/ Labview from v 1.0  on a Mac 128k, so do'nT ask me. if 
somebody offers the the most precise measuring tools to measure a BRUTALLY 
evident effect like commercial LENR, I have to ask, if those guys understood a 
bit of the issue.) 

The general calmness of Rossi (pretending a 16hr workday, simultaneously 
answering all sorts of silly questions,) is something to consider, right?
Now comes the conspiracy:
Fasten Your seatbelts!

- Part III

[Vo]:rossi-Conspiracy-- Part III

Part III and end:

now the conspiracy:

Rossi is actually an agent, to ultimately prove the ridiculousness of LENR.

Hint:

Rossi does not ask for money from unsuspecting customers.
He does not need that!
He is financed by some obscure sources, which I can only speculate about who 
they are.

His strange 'office' in Florida reminds me of exactly what?

What we logically can infere:

Rossi is backed by one or more influential US-entities:

Probably the NSA, the CIA and the oil-industry. this trio has enough money to

1) know what is going on, 

2) finance a counter-strategy, including ridiculiing the field.

Remember:
Rossi is not entiteled to anything up to now.

He quite possibly is paid to PRETEND, as long as possible: ridiculos claims, to 
discredit the field as a whole.

DGT, making similar ridiculous claims, maybe trapped by a secondary illusion.
If Rossi has something, they should also, even if they are deep in the woods of 
only PRETENDING to know he way.

Argument Pro: the DGT founders are from banking and have their claims hidden in 
Cyprus, which is a tax haven.
They maybe are not even aware of the primary scam, What bankers do:
Pretend. The rest: they do not really care.

DGTs socalled customers from 100 countries with 40million$ per entity should 
make one's head spin!
How come?

I was boggled by the good Peter Gluck's interview, reporting  such outrageous 
claims.

If  'I' spend 40mio per 300k items, I want to know, right?
It is not the Cayaman Islands, or Aserbaijan, which preorder ecats, right?

But all those parties have convinced themselves that this is a good investment?

One would like to see this by one's own eyes, right?.

An endless procession of interested parties to the outbacks of Athens must have 
been happened, -1k premier deciders, I guess--carefully monitored by the likes 
of CIA, NSA, right?

I do not know, where to put my conspiracy hat OFF right now, because it fits so 
well.

Those are just wild speculations. 
Make up you own, and back it up with evidence.
Sorry folks.

Guenter

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two

Nyteknik/Mats Lewan  stopped reporting about LENR as of Feb 28, 2012.
Yes. He seems to be reporting about drones as late as late as June 12, 2012 at 
Nyteknik, but nothing wrt LENR.

Google 'LENR Nyteknik' and you see that it stops at Feb 28, with a hefty 460 
comments in swedish.

Maybe Mats should comment why he did not report anymore  on the most important 
issue, which ofcourse involved heavy expenses by a small publication like 
Nyteknnik,  enabling visiting Italy and Greece and such byone oof its core 
reporters, to find out what is going on.

And yes, I am just a bystander, watching possible bullshitters , not having the 
time to visit the ultimate bullshitters. 

Wether Mats Lewan has the mental acuity to decode what is going on, is an open 
isue to me.

I must confess that I did not find the exact reference as to why Lewan has been 
sent to the pastures wrt LENR , so to say, but the fact is, that that Nyteknik 
LENR-reporting stopped Feb 28.

Jed. I have high regards toward Your assessment wrt LENR, but choose your peers 
wisely.
Lewan could not make his case convincingly, and made some grave errors of 
judgement, as far as I can see.

Correct me if I am wrong, on a factual basis.


I am presenting here a low probaility issue, say 20%, which is conveniently 
termed a conspiracy, but is not. This is a probabilistic assessment of affairs 
with probability 0% to xx%.

Lewan is just one case, switched down from 90% to 10% by his peers.
For me this is significant, but not decisive, as anything is for me.


If You do not understand this, not my problem.


Guenter.






 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 22:46 Donnerstag, 12.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
Mats Lewan from Nyteknik had to resign because of what? 
Sloppy bullshitting.

Lewan is still there as far as I know.

Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two

I just found that:
Lewan set up his own blog at
http://matslew.wordpress.com/
There we have an interesting gap from feb28 to apr28, where he mentions
the fabulous 'job' listings of of
DGT: 21 jobs.
This quite probably is just
vaporware, as far as my humble experience goes.
If companies just signify some need
of personell, or have a real interest, You never know.
The map is not the territory, as the good Korzybski rightfully said.


A step further: PRETENDING is not EXISTING.
Now Lewan interestingly linked to Nyteknik, which stopped at Feb 28.
Lewan must be seriously deluded or
think that his followers are as deluded as he is.
See here:
http://matslew.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/what-would-it-be-like-to-be-super-intelligent/
Oh yes. Lewan says:
...
As I have mentioned before, there are good reasons to believe
that artificial intelligence by 2045 will surpass the total intelligence of all
human brains in the world, both in an intellectual, emotional and moral sense.
...
Lewan obvviously is a Kurzweilian,
and I must say: Those are strange guys.
Which is an implicit concession that
primitive humankind simply is not able to care for its own and needs the
supreme care and feeding of the likes of Kurzweilin superintelligence with IQ
approaching infinity. Thank you!
Which might be right on the money,
because the good Lewan exactly proves his own proposition, and appeals to some
entity or process, which supposedly heals his insanity.
Kurzweil, right now, in the real
world, seems to suffer  a terminal disease, which I do not applaud, but
hope  that he possibly, finally enters a
phase of substantial thinking.
 
Come to your senses, my american
friends.
That this disease infected even
decent Swedes, worries me a bit.

 
Guenter



 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 0:19 Freitag, 13.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy, part Two
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:


Wether Mats Lewan has the mental acuity to decode what is going on, is an open 
isue to me.

I have no doubt he has sufficient mental acuity.

 
Lewan could not make his case convincingly, and made some grave errors of 
judgement, as far as I can see.


Correct me if I am wrong, on a factual basis.

Errors of judgement are a matter of opinion. Your statements regarding matters 
of fact are wrong. Lewan is still writing there. His article are still on file. 
He has not retracted, and neither has Essen, Kullander or any of the others. 
Consider yourself corrected.

People such as Essen know a great deal more about energy than you do, and much 
more about the Rossi device. So I expect they are right, and you are 
technically wrong about the claims, as well as factually wrong about Lewan's 
employment status.

Unless you have specific information that Lewan is not longer writing for 
NyTeknik, you should not claim he has been fired. I think such unfounded rumors 
are inappropriate here.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Jed, I beg to disagree.

ad (1) 'legitimate earning of money' happens, but is more rare than common, and 
more often happens under a pretext of chance than ability.

ad (2) Maybe, at times. But it rarely does. Philantropists are more often wrong 
than right when directing of their surplus money.
My judgement of people like Branson, Ellison or Allen or Gates or Buffett on 
which way to go is not very favourable.


ad (3) Money is a measure of exploitation more often than not. See the 
slave-ownership--bubble, which forced the US-North to fight this 
money/property-'bubble'. This factoid enlightened me re what was going on in 
the US in the mid-19th century. I was very astonished, when I learned about 
that.


ad (4) Freedom for whom?


I value You, because of your deep dedication to an important cause.
Wrt that you are a very atypical person, with a deep sense of importance and a 
dedication to your case.

(I do not do this easily, because judging a person always implies that I 
somehow have the competence to do so, which I do not have by some inborn 
faculty of being superior. But I judge the likes of eg (2) nevertheless, 
because they collide with my worldview and my logic, which I cultivated over 
the years.) 

Anyway. 

Let us keep this debate out of the equation.
It is enough when I occasionally speculate on Rossi -vs- Karl May, and we 
disagree.
It is always -sort of- a pleasure (for me) to have some headwind from a sharp 
mind.

All the best.
Guenter



 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 0:03 Dienstag, 10.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

Guenter Wildgruber wrote:


Decent, humble scientifically oriented minds consider that, and are not 
distracted by possible billions.
That is an absurd thing to say. 

1. Money and wealth earned by legitimate ...

2. Money promotes science, technology and exploration.

3. Money is a measure of social benefit, albeit a crude one. 

4. Money is a measure of freedom. 
- Jed

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Eric,
Agree.

There seem to be two types of people:
a) the ones to want to be compensated by money, and translate this to power
b) the ones being humble enough to recognize that they stand on the shoulders 
of giants, as maybe Einstein did.

Can you imagine Einstein aspiring being a billionaire?
I do'nt.

Great minds should convince by their ideas, not mediated by money, which is 
just a vehicle of exerting power anonymously.
Right now we should all see how destructive all sorts of money-mediated power 
is. 

Rossi a trillionaire?
All hevaens beware!


Guenter




 Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 0:38 Dienstag, 10.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 
My own personal issue (and you may not be addressing comments that I have made 
in the past) lies not in rewarding innovation.  It lies in overcompensation 
and the setting up of a system of extracting rents. 
...

I am not against hardworking, innovative (and sometimes paranoid) people being 
rewarded handsomely for their efforts.  I'm against trillions going to some 
while others who can barely afford a meal must pay more for electricity as a 
result of patent enforcement, even if the license fees are amortized over a 
large population.

Eric

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Jojo, by this you imply that the US-Navy is somehow the keeper of wisdom and 
knowledge.

As a European I sometimes encounter this US-centric-idea, that some 
US-institution has superior knowledge.
Those insaide institutions are mostly stupid buerocrats, which gives the state 
a bad name,  with some clever people inside, to whom normally nobody listens, 
because institutionalized 'stupidity' trumps insight.
This must be worse than average in a command-hierarchy. Compare this to NASA, 
where there is no such hierarchy, but nevertheless they make errors galore.

Implicitly You suggest that a command-structure is superior to a more flat one.
If this should be the case, the Peter-principle would not apply.

See:
...
The Peter Principle is a belief that in an organization where 
promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that 
organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of 
ability. The principle is commonly phrased, employees tend to rise to 
their level of incompetence. In more formal parlance, the effect could 
be stated as: employees tend to be given more authority until they cannot 
continue to work competently.
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

There is an interesting podcast by George Kenney, btw, concerning UFO's and 
what thay are all about, from the position of an US-ARMY insider.


http://www.electricpolitics.com/podcast/2012/05/ufos_what_are_they.html


Guenter




 Von: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 2:11 Dienstag, 10.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

No, Rossi did not discover his LENR2 mechanism from 
the Chinese.  He got help from our own US Navy skunkworks. 
 
Jojo

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Harry,
I mostly agree,
The general topic is 'power structure research'.
Fascinating.

Domhoff et al in the US, Krysmansky in Germany.

The possible breakup of this structure fascinates a lot of people, including 
myself.
Could we heal the environment, before the Utopians and Greedy use LENR as a 
tool to leave the solar system, because they destroyed everything livable over 
here?

I am very much down to earth, wrt that. Heal the base first.


Guenter




 Von: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 3:59 Dienstag, 10.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 
Since the subject of economics has come I recommend this lecture by
Guy Standing.

The Precariat: The new dangerous class

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJt-5i_dls
Labour economist Professor Guy Standing identifies one of the alarming
impacts of globalisation on the labour market; the rise of a new class
of insecure workers - the precariat. He calls for governments
world-wide to address the inequalities this new class suffer from, as
we can't sustain what is happening without major threats along the
way.

He is an economist and has studied the effect of trade liberalisation
on labour over the last 30 years and
advocates a basic income for everyone. He uses the marxian concepts of
a class for itself and a class in the making,
and identifies the precariat as a class in the making.

He answers five questions that structure his book: 1) What is the
precariat? 2) Why care about it? 3) Why is it growing? 4) Who is in
the precariat? 5) and where is it taking us as society?

He breaks society down into 5 classes.
at the top are the super rich

1. elite (super rich).
2. salariat
3. working class
4. precariat
5. underclass

Harry

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Jed,

You are tough and rightly so.
Now Einstein had his peculiarities in his personal live and possibly other 
aspects.
Being a womanizer and such, which I personally do not quite find very amusing, 
whatever.

But this is not what it is all about.
It is about the peers and the attitude towards them.
Eg Newton was a bloody bigot, speculating in the stock market and such while 
reading the bible every day.
Maybe at his time this all nicely fitted together in a latter day realization 
of protestant ethics, which he should have found, that this is is a silly 
imagination. Seems to be more difficult than postulating the law of gravity, 
right?


So maybe I have to retreat to an abstract ideal of a honest person-- the 
hypothetical 'Jesus' of an agnostic I am, as a norm of decent behavior.

The 'ideal' You refer to, which I tried to deconstruct, is some protestant 
ethic person as a posterboy for capitalism, which as such does not exist either.

So let us agree that we are en par wrt that.

(Btw, complaints mount, that this is something offtopic. I beg to differ. This 
belongs to the large scheme of things.)

What You seem to see as an excuse, concerning Rossi --that he is human, all-to 
human-- for me is a suspicion.
maybe unjustified, maybe not.
If it were so easy.

Guenter






 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 21:59 Dienstag, 10.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote:
 
b) the ones being humble enough to recognize that they stand on the shoulders 
of giants, as maybe Einstein did.


Can you imagine Einstein aspiring being a billionaire?

But to describe Einstein, of all people, as being humble or selfless is 
ridiculous.

He was a nice fellow by all accounts, except...

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

2012-07-09 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Eric,

thanks for the reference,
That is exactly the point.
As far as I can remember there are similar reports from eg Piantelli and others.
What is missing is the conclusions in a wider context.


Which actually should be intuitively plausible:

If a LENR-reaction starts, it produces A LOT of energy at a certain spot.
My back-of the napkin estimates go in the order of magnitude of from 1000 to 
10k base-material-atoms involved.
Remember: 1k Ni-Atoms are a cube of approx 5nm^3.

This zone heats up in a sub-microsecond-scale, and most probably melts or even 
explodes, ie releases local energy via a gaseous phase, the rest simply melting 
and possibly/probably losing its capability to start up another reaction, 
because it is structurally 'kaput'.

Most of the evidence for LENR comes from quite low-key energy release, which 
must have a reason.
My guess is, that these low-key reactions as maybe the MIT experiments do NOT 
cause melting or even explosions.

We have a problem here: such low-key reactions are commercially uninteresting.
So there is a need to prop up this meager evidence, and make a midge -at least 
in its current state-  appear like an elephant.

Decent, humble scientifically oriented minds consider that, and are not 
distracted by possible billions.
So I listen more to the humble side , and not subjects or entities driven by an 
illusion of grandeur and big profit.


It is enough that we have those artists in the financial business. No need to 
have them in the scientific/technological sector also.

Guenter



 Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 5:32 Montag, 9.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

I wrote:



I would be surprised if the answer to the second question [Is it possible under 
any circumstance for an NiH system to operate at or above 600 C?] were 
unequivocally negative; it is possible to think up scenarios in which the 
nuclear active environment rarely reaches the melting point of nickel, even 
with a low-grade reaction proceeding.

I just happened upon a writeup by Stan Szpak, from SPAWAR, and others, 
concerning the PdD co-deposition process he pioneered, in which palladium is 
electroplated on a gold or copper or similar base.  The SPAWAR video I have 
referred to elsewhere, which shows a number of bright hot spots rapidly 
appearing and disappearing against a red and blue background, is of one of 
these assemblies.  What the authors have to say about it sounds similar to what 
Guenter guessed might be going on, where a small region destructively melts, 
or, in their words, explodes:

The ‘hot spots’ observed in the infrared imaging experiments are suggestive of 
‘miniexplosions’ (Figure 1b). To verify this, the Ag electrode on a 
piezoelectric transducer was used as the substrate for the Pd/D co-deposition. 
If a mini-explosion occurred, the resulting shock wave would compress the 
crystal. The shock wave would be followed by a heat pulse that would cause the 
crystal to expand. In these experiments, sharp downward spikes followed by 
broader upward spikes were observed in the piezoelectric crystal response. The 
downward spikes were indicative of crystal compression while the broader upward 
spikes are attributed to the heat pulse and the consequent crystal expansion 
following the explosion.
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSlenrresear.pdf

So there may be no reason to try to think up a nuclear active environment that 
is long-lived; it is possible that the NAE (if things can be generalized, here) 
typically explodes and goes away, with the reaction continuing on elsewhere in 
the substrate.

Eric

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

2012-07-09 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Jojo,
maybe I missed that.

but in my humble opinion carbon-nanostructures are hypothetical conceptual 
vehicles, which nobody in the field ever investigated.
I don not want to say that such structures could not exist, but I do not see 
any evidence in the literature known to me.

This would be a deep research-issue, I suspect, to bring it into reality, and 
is an OPEN TOPIC.

Question: do You think that Rossi solved that, with a little help of some 
Chinese wizards, who promise everything and deliver something of questionable 
value, if you only pay., eg Android 4.0 devices for $80.
Pay a Chinese (sorry folks) 1million to detect the Higgs Boson, they faithfully 
deliver it via UPS, tax-free in four weeks.

Excuse my sarcasm.

Guenter







 Von: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 6:41 Montag, 9.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

Guenter, once again I believe you missed the 
point.  I thought I did a good job in explaining in the last post, but 
apparently I did not.  So let me try again.
 
You only have the 400C recrystallization issue or 
the Curie Point issue or any other temp-limiting issue if your NAE is Nickel 
Lattice or some other transistion metal (with the exception of possibly 
Tungsten).  If your NAE is cracks, or patches, or unusual geometry on the 
Nickel lattice, then you have this temp limitation and higher temper it s will 
destroy 
these environments.
 
But if your NAE is Carbon Nanostructures, you do 
not have an NAE that is easily destroyed by temperatures.  Carbon 
Nanostructures like nanotubes and graphene can easily resist higher 
temperatures 
without its structure being destroyed.  You can host higher temps on Carbon 
Nanostructures NAE.  Carbon Nanostructures have demonstrated higher 
temperature resistance.
 
 
Jojo
 
- Original Message - 
From: Guenter  Wildgruber 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 12:19  AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C  Operations


Jojo,


Maybe, maybe not.
Count me in the doubter's camp.
As I tried to explain: 400++ degC is a domain where  recrystallization 
occurs. this is not your comfortable  home-temperature.

See 'the laws of recrystallization', subtopic  -- Laws of  recrystallization 
--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_(metallurgy)


It is ONE thing to question ONE law, but a different thing to  question quite 
a bunch of them simultaneously,.


As an engineer with some philosophical leanings (quite rare) I  tell You that 
I am not quite ready to put Rossi into the alltime hall of  fame of the  
likes of Plato, Aristoteles or Einstein.
My guess is, that he is more like a Karl May character, who pretended  to 
have visited distant lands, without ever experiencing them, or messing  
things up, doing a disservice to us all.



Sorry.
Guenter









 Von: Jojo Jaro  jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 17:31 Sonntag,  8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re:  [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations


 
Yes, 600c seems like an overstretch only  because we do not understand what's 
going on.  Just like how Huzienga  and Parks would think of Cold Fusion.  
They don't understand it, so it  is an overstretch.
 
However, Axil seems to have done a good job in  stitching together a probable 
explanation that can easily explain this  600C.  This result is entirely 
probable in the context of Carbon  Nanostructure-based LENR.  Carbon 
Nanostructure-based LENR can be more  consistent and controllable so I do not 
see a problem with 600C, or even  1000C reaction temps.
 
Many seems to have recognized the  possibility of Carbon Nanostructure-based 
LENR paradigm, most  notable of which may include both Ed Storms and WL.
 
I have speculated repeatedly in the past that  one of the reason why Rossi 
changed to a flat design was due to the need to  deliver more consistent 
Sparking/arc discharge.  Now, evidence is  mounting that such an environment 
is consistent with Carbon  Nanosturcture-based LENR, as these Carbon 
Nanostructures are easily created  in such an electric discharge 
environment.   In fact, I would  go one step further and speculate that I 
believe Rossi's new flat  design may be a hybrid Arc Discharge/CVD reactor 
that creates abundant  Carbon Nanostructures that appear to be critical to 
increased power  density.   
 
We know that Carbon Nanotubes are good NAE  candidates.  In Lou's post of WL 
slides, WL presents  compelling evidence of the possibility of Graphene as a 
possible  NAE.  Both of these Nanosturcutures appear to be good platforms  
for the Nuclear Active Environment.  If one recognizes  the possibility of 
these Carbon Nanostructures as the NAE, one will not have  too much problems 
believing the Rossi 600C stable operating  temps.
 
Jojo
 
 
  
- Original Message - 
From: Guenter  Wildgruber 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 10:50  PM
Subject: Re: [Vo

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Mark,

You're right, ofcourse, and maybe I just overreacted.


Just summarized my argument in a personal mail to Eric, which I reproduce here:

Eric,

basically I think that LENR needs some crystalline structure of the 
base-material (Ni, Pd,...) to start and be maintained.
This structure weakens with increasing temperature.
If the material melts, the process stops. This we know.

Now the process is not homogenous, but seems to concentrate on hot spots. wrt 
this I refer to the electron microscopic analysis of material which has been 
active for some time, where the material definitely melted at those spots.

Now 600degC would not be a problem, because the melting point of eg Ni is far 
above above that.
It even could be a positive thing, because of recrystallization-effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_(metallurgy)

So my argument critically depends on the inhomogeneity of the process. If eg 
10% of the material (I expect much less at a given time) is active, for the 
whole system to produce an average temperature of 600degC, these active zones 
would have to be MUCH hotter than that, basically surpassing the melting point, 
which stops the process.

So another zone has to take over.

Upon further thinking, this actually could be the case, under some very special 
conditions, ie one zone melts, then recrystallizes, later on becomes active 
again. But this critically depends on the zones being quite small -- 
sub-micrometer -- AND maintaining enough surface for H+ or D+ to enter the 
crystal again.

Here lies my difficulty.
But maybe I'm wrong.
So maybe I should restate: I would be VERY SURPRISED.

Anyway, lets hope the best, expect the worst.

Guenter





 Von: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 1:23 Sonntag, 8.Juli 2012
Betreff: RE: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

So Guenter,
 
Why would seriously challenging you worldview worry you?  Wouldn’t you prefer 
the truth, even if it completely decimates your worldview?  As a 
scientist/engineer, I want to know what *IS*, not what happens to agree with my 
current understanding of what is…
 
-Mark
 
From:Guenter Wildgruber [mailto:gwildgru...@ymail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 3:50 PM
To: Peter Gluck
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 
Peter,
somehow I missed that.
Anyway.
200 degC would be quite something.
400degC would be disruptive.
600degC earth-shattering.
 
A range where I am having some conceptual difficulties with.
Presumably theory also.
But this is commonsensical extrapolation from my side,without any firm ground, 
I must confess.
 
As stated, such a simple parameter like temperature could seriously challenge 
my worldview, which worries me somehow, but I do not reject it out of hand.
 
We will see.
 
all the best
Guenter
 



Von:Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com
An: Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com 
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 20:27 Samstag, 7.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 
Dear Guenter,
 
Nothing easier- if you make a Google Search for Defkalion 650C or a search on 
their Forum for 650C you will find tens of links. It was also written at Mats's 
Nyteknik.
 
An example from many: 
 
Real news from Defkalion « nickelpower 
nickelpower.org/2012/03/26/real-news-from-defkalion/
26 Mar 2012 – Rossi is a “one-man-band” and Defkalion has 27 scientists.  
they say that they reactor work until 650C (limit of bare rector test) and 
according .
 
I had a cognitive shock- what they have is a process different
from Piantelli's based on preformed nanoclusters. Those clusters are destroyed 
fast over 400C.
There are many implications but I don't think we have to change our 
world/science views.
And now Rossi re-discovers this high temperature process.
Progress!
 
Peter
 
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com 
wrote:
Dear Peter,  obviously I missed this one,
Could You provide a link?
 
The temperature issue obviously is a very central one, and, I must confess, 
contradicts my theories of the inner working of the e-cat/Hyperion, which is 
somewhat like a random heating up on several locations.
If this would be the case , those random heat-centers (estimated 1000degC)  
would be self-annihilate by melting.
 
Ofcourse we are theoretizing on this issue, but controllability in the 650degC 
domain would indicate that the process is quite homogenous, and not sporadicly 
dispersed over say 1-10 um2 heat centers- as I up to now hypothesized, on 
hopefully realistic grounds.
 
But maybe this is only my worldview, which crumbles.
 
If this would be the case, it would indicate that this is a VERY benign 
process, and, I must confess, I would -as said- have to rework my entire 
worldview, which is based on randomness and the universe's

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

to
be clear:

a) LENR is a real effect to me.
b) What I doubt are the claims of Rossi/DGT.

(a) should put the scientific community to shame and reconsider their methods.
(b) is a different animal: Pseudo-engineers, companies, speculators, phantasts
claiming that a midge is an elephant.

No need to elaborate on (a) on this time and place. This is confined to the
laboratory and the minds of scientists.

But (b) needs careful consideration, because, well, it is potentially
earth-shattering in the physical domain of our livelihood.
Not Your average Higgs Boson, which is just a mental construct, albeit
interesting.

We should not fool ourselves wrt (b).

I dare to apply some commonsense plus engineering principles plus -ahem-
psychology.
I explicitly exclude science here, because it is corruptable on several levels.
The main being self-deception or bogus theories.
Engineering being different, because it has to show some real-world-evidence.

There is no proof for (b). Only claims.
To keep my sanity, I critically watch the claims, and reject them if they
contradict my principles.
Those are not hammered in stone, ie I am hopefully able to revise on evidence
and reorder my principles.
Maybe I even believe in 'God' if he talks to me in a convincing manner. But up
to now he did not show up.

What I am trying to do, is apply my methods of thinking and acting, therefore I
stand where I stand.

600degC claims on an industrial scale for a sufficiently long time without
side-effects currently do not pass my smell-test.
Watch the caveats, or the fine-print, as it is said!

That's it, folks.

Guenter

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

A (psycho)analysis of Rossi/DGT or an exercise in the theory and practice of 
(self-)deception.

There is some LENR effect, I am sure. This just as a disclaimer.

We all can bend spoons,right?,  

But Uri Geller did it better.
Why?
He had a magic sauce.

Interestingly enough Feynman met Geller, and had to say this:
...
I also looked into extrasensory perception, and PSI phenomena, and the latest 
craze there was Uri Geller, a man who is supposed to be able to bend keys by 
rubbing them with his finger. So I went to his hotel room, on his invitation, 
to see a demonstration of both mindreading and bending keys. He didn't do any 
mindreading that succeeded; nobody can read my mind, I guess. And my boy held a 
key and Geller rubbed it, and nothing happened. Then he told us it works better 
under water, and so you can picture all of us standing in the bathroom with the 
water turned on and the key under it, and him rubbing the key with his finger. 
Nothing happened. So I was unable to investigate that phenomenon. 
...
-- 'Cargo Cult Science'

Actually Feynman did not figure out what Geller's trick was, but it was one, 
which later on was found to be some chemical treatment of his spoons, which 
Geller did not seem to have at hand when Feynman visited him.
Now Geller is still a celebrity in some circles, whereas Feynman is known to 
some physics geeks and folks eg interested in the analysis of the 
Challenger-catastropy, where he applied common sense and some basic principles. 
No quantum magic. Not so spectacular, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster

As said.
A cautionary tale.
Hope I am wrong.

Guenter

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Alain,

... nothing is proven. ..
yes, ofcourse.  this is the doubter's dilemma.
You cannot disprove the solipsist position, except applying -- and accepting -- 
a minimum of common sense.

It is the dose, which makes the poison, to cite Paracelsus.

wrt ...exceptional evidence ...
I do not use that term, which is, as you imply, very problematic.
It is actually a rewording of Ockham's principle, if you carefully analyze it, 
and belongs to the set of axioms of our belief system, but only applies to 
immaterial beliefs, so to say. If I kick You in the butt, so to say, immaterial 
beliefs stop to work, and Your inner solipsist is deeply challenged to ignore 
the evidence.

All the best

Guenter





 Von: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com
An: Vortex List vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 14:11 Sonntag, 8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

There are situation where comfortable doubt is just another delusion.
If you apply the same standard of proof to normal facts, nothing is proven.

LENR is real, so why apply the stupid exceptional evidence ?

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Jojo,

rest assured that I deplore pathoskeptizism as much as You do.

But this does not make me change flags and join the other side.

This is just like in a war.
if You recognize that your party is wrong, You have two options:
a) change sides
b) be a pacifist

Pathoskeptics firmly belong to the (a)-camp.
I myself am trying to be in the (b)-camp ofcourse, which means: be skeptical 
wrt BOTH sides.

Thhis metaphor has its weaknesses, and I do not want to overstretch it. This 
would be silly in its own right.

Sitting in between, repeating myself ad nauseam, I must say that on the one 
hand LENR is REAL, on the other hand Rossi/DGT probably overbid their hand, in 
poker-speech.
In other words: They CLAIM to have an elephant, which is more probably than not 
a midge, or a sparrow, with lots of fleas and lice and other parasites.
Did You ever have a sparrow in your hands?
I did.
You would be surprised!

Rossi, the sparrow does a good job of concealing his hand, in poker speech.
And endlessly promises. Bids up his hand to 600degC, knowing that 1000degC 
would give him a good laugh, even from the most friendly of his friends.

What I tried to do, is argue, that 600degC is already an overstretch of the 
poker-hand from both sides: Rossi AND DGT.
Maybe I am wrong. 

Actually I hope so, because the planet would be safe for another couple of 
hundred years, and could heal from human folly.

Guenter




Guenter





 Von: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 15:25 Sonntag, 8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 
...The assumption undergriding a pseudo-skeptics attitude is that he 
understands everything there is to understand about the subject, therefore 
whatever he does not understand must be false.
 
This of course is the sad state of attitude 
prevailing in modern science nowadays.  
Jojo

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Alain,
You most probably make an error of judgement.

DGT up to now delivered 'facts' which I could assemble on a sunday afternoon 
(like today).
Peter Gluck did a good job of briefing them, so at least they are coherent in 
WHAT THEY SAY!
What they DO or HAVE is an another matter altogether.
Rossi is telling us that the sun is rising when in fact it is setting. 
Beautiful, when he talks to his believers.
Rossi exactly delivered nothing except blabbering about his second generation 
of vaporware.
Not far behind is DGT, which exactly did what? Deliver nothing.

To repeat: I think, as a matter of fact, that LENR is real, but not nearly as 
far to commercial application as Rossi/DGT claim.

The next two months will show us the evidence.
Please do not be disappointed..
At least I will not, because it is hard to disappoint a pessimist/cautious 
realist  (not pathoskeptic).

Guenter





 Von: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com
An: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 16:36 Sonntag, 8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

In fact, and it is my own position, and I understand that some disagree,
For DGT I have passed the I cannot explain.
With my experience, my behavioral analysis of business, and various data and 
analysis gathered, I can say that the positive outcome (at a few details 
uncertain), is sure beyond the reasonable doubt.

For Rossi, I'm still uncomfortable, but beside clear lies and probable lies, 
and things to check, the key facts seems good, because of others reaction and 
claims.
...

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Jojo,

Maybe, maybe not.
Count me in the doubter's camp.
As I tried to explain: 400++ degC is a domain where recrystallization occurs. 
this is not your comfortable home-temperature.

See 'the laws of recrystallization', subtopic  -- Laws of recrystallization --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_(metallurgy)

It is ONE thing to question ONE law, but a different thing to question quite a 
bunch of them simultaneously,.

As an engineer with some philosophical leanings (quite rare) I tell You that I 
am not quite ready to put Rossi into the alltime hall of fame of the  likes of 
Plato, Aristoteles or Einstein.
My guess is, that he is more like a Karl May character, who pretended to have 
visited distant lands, without ever experiencing them, or messing things up, 
doing a disservice to us all.


Sorry.
Guenter







 Von: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 17:31 Sonntag, 8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

 
Yes, 600c seems like an overstretch only because we 
do not understand what's going on.  Just like how Huzienga and Parks would 
think of Cold Fusion.  They don't understand it, so it is an 
overstretch.
 
However, Axil seems to have done a good job in 
stitching together a probable explanation that can easily explain this 
600C.  This result is entirely probable in the context of Carbon 
Nanostructure-based LENR.  Carbon Nanostructure-based LENR can be more 
consistent and controllable so I do not see a problem with 600C, or even 1000C 
reaction temps.
 
Many seems to have recognized the 
possibility of Carbon Nanostructure-based LENR paradigm, most notable 
of which may include both Ed Storms and WL.
 
I have speculated repeatedly in the past that one 
of the reason why Rossi changed to a flat design was due to the need to deliver 
more consistent Sparking/arc discharge.  Now, evidence is mounting 
that such an environment is consistent with Carbon Nanosturcture-based 
LENR, as these Carbon Nanostructures are easily created in such an electric 
discharge environment.   In fact, I would go one step further 
and speculate that I believe Rossi's new flat design may be a hybrid Arc 
Discharge/CVD reactor that creates abundant Carbon Nanostructures that appear 
to 
be critical to increased power density.   
 
We know that Carbon Nanotubes are good NAE 
candidates.  In Lou's post of WL slides, WL presents compelling 
evidence of the possibility of Graphene as a possible NAE.  Both of 
these Nanosturcutures appear to be good platforms for the Nuclear 
Active Environment.  If one recognizes the possibility of these Carbon 
Nanostructures as the NAE, one will not have too much problems believing the 
Rossi 600C stable operating temps.
 
Jojo
 
 
  
- Original Message - 
From: Guenter  Wildgruber 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 10:50 
PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C  Operations




Rossi, the sparrow does a good job of concealing his hand, in poker  speech.
And endlessly promises. Bids up his hand to 600degC, knowing that  1000degC 
would give him a good laugh, even from the most friendly of his  friends.


What I tried to do, is argue, that 600degC is already an overstretch of  the 
poker-hand from both sides: Rossi AND DGT.
Maybe I am wrong. 

Actually I hope so, because the planet would be safe for another couple  of 
hundred years, and could heal from human folly.


Guenter








Guenter





 Von: Jojo Jaro  jth...@hotmail.com
An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 15:25 Sonntag,  8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re:  [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

...The 
  assumption undergriding a pseudo-skeptics attitude is that he understands 
  everything there is to understand about the subject, therefore whatever he 
  does not understand must be false. 
 
This of course is the sad state of attitude  prevailing in modern science 
nowadays.  
Jojo

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

Alain, 

You again make a categorical error :

...DGT gave strong signal...

I do not care about 'signals' unchecked.
Only if they are verified by MY or other trustable person's experience, and 
cross-checked again by my humble common sense.

As Korzybski said: The map is not the territory 

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski --

What DGT actually did ,as Rossi repeatedly does, is, that their stated 'map' is 
somehow correlated to the territory of reality.
You can pretend as long as you will, as long as you have a sufficient number of 
followers to satisfy your ambitions.
Any storyteller satisfies that sort of belief. Even Uri Geller. Embarrasment 
impersonated.
Geller proves one thing: how easy it is to get people to believe fairytales 
like eg  the bible.


And No: I am NOT maryjugo or whatever this person is calling itself. I am who I 
am.
And:Yes,  I  think LENR is real.

I am just embarrassed by extraordinary claims without sufficient backing.
Which makes me angry at times.

All the best
Guenter




 Von: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com
An: Vortex List vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Gesendet: 18:54 Sonntag, 8.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations
 

I undesrtand your reasoning, and from that point of view it is right.
the claims are claims.
but when someone own assets (reputation, investment, clients, ...) claims have 
a concrete effect that varies depending on the future, in which they have more 
data than us. Only them know if their claims are right or wrong, but their 
belief or knowledge have an effect on their strategy, even if they are 
irrational a little.

so when i hear a claim, I translate into commitment, image risk, cornering.
they can be self deluded, but , unlike you are supported by a strong group like 
is the mainstream, the delusion cannot be too far from facts.

I have received data from them, and also behavioral data, and competence 
signals.
It is easy to differential a hollywood movie bomb, from a terrorist bomb, and 
you can even guess their intent, education, culture and competence from the 
design.

DGT gave strong signal about managing details that match a real capacity to 
sell to public (safety, regulation, green/ROHS). they have made rational choice 
that mean that when choosing, they choose the standard, simple, recognized 
alternative (H2 circuit, metal, shape, shielding).
They have proposed some key design that mean that they have touched a real 
complex reactor, and found an uncommon but smart control technique.

of course , those evidences are not easy to transfer to third party (maybe you 
ca read the technical discussion, but part of the evidence is in my experience, 
yet maybe some other is in someone else and I missed it).

finally there is a good reason to lower the standard of proof, it is that 
reading Celani, Pianteli, Focardi, all of that is SIMPLE to do (for a gang of 
engineer with budget, i mean like LHC one magnet is easy to build).

the only real concern I have is that nobody else in the LENR community (for 
mainstream they are self-delusioned and won't recognize their mother with a 
LENR logo T-shirt) seems to have success in making a powerful gas reactor.
Maybe short budget, maybe just hiding and preparing for fast sales soon,

however alternative are not coherent either.

DGT might have problem on longterm usage (the buzz is possible), but their 
claims, on the horizon of few weeks, and as far as they could test, was correct 
when done. And latest behaviors show that they were anyway confident, and 
betting their balls.

The same kind of reasoning with Concezzi and NIWeek, make me hugely confident.

we should stop being afraid of our shadow. LENr is normal physic, and LENR 
energy is more rational industry than renewable.

I've noticed that behavior of oppressed minorities (like bikes on roads. see 
http://www.johnforester.com ), that integrate the beliefs of the mainstream, 
despite the facts that everyday prove the opposite, and even for those who 
oppose strongly the mainstream. It is very hard not to absorb the mainstream 
values (I think it is the subject of some cognitive science sector, on which 
I've read some article), even if you know it is wrong.

I see everyday very various pathological science, there are some in LENR who 
look pathologic, but mainstream is crowded with such too. Without the support 
of groupthink, LENR is quite easily cleaned from bad science.


2012/7/8 Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com

Alain,
You most probably make an error of judgement.


DGT up to now delivered 'facts' which I could assemble on a sunday afternoon 
(like today).
Peter Gluck did a good job of briefing them, so at least they are coherent in 
WHAT THEY SAY!
What they DO or HAVE is an another matter altogether.
Rossi is telling us that the sun is rising when in fact it is setting. 
Beautiful, when he talks to his believers.
Rossi exactly delivered nothing except blabbering about his second

Re: [Vo]:ILENRS-12 at WM