Eric Carroll;171426 Wrote:
I have written a new Wiki page: ConnectToPowerAmp
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?ConnectToPowerAmp
I feel that I have a couple of things to contribute:
1. Discussion of adding DIY passive attenuation - I can supply an Excel
spreadsheet to help choosing
tomjtx;171591 Wrote:
I did a review of a full modded Bolder SB with the 750.00 PSU V the
Transporter.
The TP was clearly better in every respect and I think it would be a
waste of money to go the mod route. The full Bolder mods cost more than
the TP and doesn't sound as good IMHO.
I also
Mark Lanctot;171659 Wrote:
Yes, it used to be that music was produced for listening over a car
radio, now it's probably produced for how it plays back in 128 kbps AAC
form in an iPod.
Which is doubly sad - and apologies because this is probably off topic,
but it does bug me - because if one
Skunk;171811 Wrote:
Your choice of the number 180 makes me wonder if you wrote the article
:-)
Interesting site, though slightly overzealous imho.
I swear it wasn't me ;-)!
Peter Aczel has been around forever, or at least much longer than I
have. You're right, he is overzealous; years
mmg_fan;171769 Wrote:
and even little know chinese amps like the dussan.
I think the Dussun DS99 integrated amp, at $500, is one of the best
values out there. Great sounding amp with lots of power
--
PhilNYC
Sonic Spirits Inc.
http://www.sonicspirits.com
slimkid;171782 Wrote:
I never heard it, but there's Jolida amp with 100w/ch, with tube preamp
and SS amp, which might be an interesting choice too.I have it. I like it,
but if you're thinking 200 W, our tastes are
enough different that my experience is probably irrelevant.
--
tom permutt
Interesting, my understanding that Aqvox can hardly be called warm -
based on reviews, never had a chance to hear it myself.
What would be really interesting is to compare PS to Lavry DA-10.
--
325xi
simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via
acoustic zen matrix reference
I hope this isn't off topic, but something I noticed on the Rothwell
site is a claimed 10db SNR improvement by using the balanced
attenuators between a preamp and amp*. Wouldn't that be impossible if
the preamp had an analog volume control?
Maybe the reason it seems on-topic is because of the
Skunk;171911 Wrote:
I hope this isn't off topic, but something I noticed on the Rothwell
site is a claimed 10db SNR improvement by using the balanced
attenuators between a preamp and amp*.
*Although the attenuators can be used on the inputs of the pre-amp in
exactly the same way as they
etfun2000;171604 Wrote:
The only rationale explanation i see: the fact that flac is native
versus wma lossless bring some difference, evne thouhg i think i red in
some forums this should not impact.
I don't know the details of the formats that well, but is it possible
that one is 16 bit and
Talk about mainstream audiophile
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cliveb;171822 Wrote:
How would you like me to go about this: edit the wiki directly, or send
you my suggested text?
Clive,
Its a Wiki! Edit away!
Eric
--
Eric Carroll
Eric Carroll's Profile:
opaqueice;171773 Wrote:
You might check this one, which I've seen new for $180:
http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG
reviewed here:
http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=20blogId=1
I'm very interested in this amp, but only if it can be re-trimmed
tomjtx;171591 Wrote:
I did a review of a full modded Bolder SB with the 750.00 PSU V the
Transporter.
The TP was clearly better in every respect and I think it would be a
waste of money to go the mod route. The full Bolder mods cost more than
the TP and doesn't sound as good IMHO.
I also
ceejay;171697 Wrote:
Well the first page is the BeginnersGuide and it is meant to be just the
headlines with shortcuts to the pages with more info. The
BeginnersGuideOverview goes into more detail and is intended to be
readable in its own right.
I did start to draft a paragraph to go in
Well, here is a fascinating site where they couldn't pick the A500 out
of a blind study.
Not conclusive (I can't figure out the experimental methodology because
I don't read spanish) but certainly interesting.
I wish I could read spanish as the concept of groups getting together
for blind
If you were to 'open' your favorite CD in a waveform editing program,
you'd see that most of the waveforms are CLIPPED! It is a known fact
that adding 'distortion' makes it sound louder... psychoacoustic
mumbo-jumbo starts here! Removing dynamics and pushing the ceiling of
0dBFS (full-scale) is
Great idea and post. I am currently checking out new power amps and
speaker combinations so you timing is good.
My Transporter has the three built in attenuation levels on the
unbalanced outputs, can you add some information on what the output
levels would be at each of the settings?
--
Eric Carroll;171987 Wrote:
Well, here is a fascinating site where they couldn't pick the A500 out
of a blind study.
Not conclusive (I can't figure out the experimental methodology because
I don't read spanish) but certainly interesting.
I wish I could read spanish as the concept of
Thanks for the question, I will add the answer to ConnectoToPowerAmp
page.
--
Eric Carroll
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Eric Seaberg;171986 Wrote:
If you were to 'open' your favorite CD in a waveform editing program,
you'd see that most of the waveforms are CLIPPED! It is a known fact
that adding 'distortion' makes it sound louder... psychoacoustic
mumbo-jumbo starts here! Removing dynamics and pushing the
The distortion is nearly 70dB down at a few watts (the red curve is
irrelevant as it's dominated by harmonics above 20 kHz which are
inaudible anyway). I doubt anyone could pick that out in a blind test,
especially when you look at figure 5 in the audiocritic review - about
90% of the harmonic
Did you or someone you know already receive their Feb. issue?
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opaqueice;172006 Wrote:
The distortion is nearly 70dB down at a few watts (the red curve is
irrelevant as it's dominated by harmonics above 20 kHz which are
inaudible anyway). I doubt anyone could pick that out in a blind test,
especially when you look at figure 5 in the audiocritic review
Raja,
I didn't change my point of view. I always said I prefered the TP to
the Bolder.
I did say it was a matter of taste.
However I did make a mistake in the way I presented that review. I left
a lot to be read in between the lines. I thought most people would be
able to see that I clearly think
P Floding;172011 Wrote:
Your figures about tube amps are just plain wrong. How did you arrive at
them?
A couple of watts are in fact quite a lot. If listening at low levels
you might only use 1/10 of a watt or less. In such situations any
crossover distortion will suddenly be very
USAudio wrote:
Did you or someone you know already receive their Feb. issue?
Yes, came in the mail today.
Actually, Jan 19 is pretty late for a Feb issue, other buff books
typically arrive about the 2nd or 3rd of the month. The label is mostly
for newstand sales, the issue is pulled when the
OK, I guess that I just didn't interpret you review accurately. If I
could make a suggestion, on future reviews perhaps your should state
your real opinion and not sugar coat your views because readers of this
forum might be partially basing prospective purchases on your opinion. I
do, however,
opaqueice;172020 Wrote:
Sorry - these are amplitude measurements, not power? In that case take
the square root of what I said. Picking a tube amp at random:
http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/306yamamoto/index3.html
you see that the distortion into 8 Ohms at .1W is .5%, and 3% at 1W.
USAudio;172010 Wrote:
Did you or someone you know already receive their Feb. issue?
I received mine a week ago...
--
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Raj,
That's why I thank you for giving me the oportunity to clarify.
I do think my original post did clearly state that I thought the TP is
better.
The only thing I tempered were my comments on the Bolder. I didn't
think I needed to bash Bolder to make my preference clear. Even though
I think
P Floding;172026 Wrote:
I'm not really up for a full explanation/investigation. Let's just say
that a tube amp that is rated in the 10s of watts, being driven into
soft-limiting is going to generate loads of distortion. It is
meaningless to compare distortion figures at similar power levels
P Floding;172034 Wrote:
I see how you are thinking.
However, you can't extrapolate anything down in level when it comes to
crossover distortion. It's a discontinuity in the transfer curve which
is of equal size regardless of the signal level. It doesn't scale with
the signal. Put a low
I'm looking for an amplification solution for my SB3 in the kitchen.
I've tried a T-Amp but it's a bit bass light for my tastes - and the
wife's sounds a bit tinny. Ebay has numerous Naim NAPXXX's for sale -
I'd go for a Nap 90. I have noticed that at least one forum member
directs the output of
Check out the New Wiki page:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?ConnectToPowerAmp
Let me know if it answers your questions.
--
Eric Carroll
Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293
opaqueice;172039 Wrote:
Actually you're wrong - that's precisely the case in which my
extrapolation is correct.
Suppose the measured amplifier signal is A = A0 + N, where A0 is the
ideal (non-distorted) signal, and N is some componenent which doesn't
scale with A0. What's plotted is the
Thanks for the quick response. The Wiki entry does explain some of the
issues, but does not give the tech details for Naim power amps and also
Naim use funny plugs and sockets so I'd like to know where I could get
the components or a suitable made up cable in the UK.
--
TurnipMan
Not to split hairs but are you being polite to the TP because your are
on the Slim Devices forum? Your 12/19/06 comments on AC seem to
contradict much of what you have stated in your post that pretty much
bashes the Bolder SB. I don't really know what your true opinion is!
Raja
--
rajacat
Getting back on topic, there are a lot of components of pro amps at AVS
Forum. Pro amps are available in music stores, so no big markup. They
are very robust, quite well protected and can power low impedance
speakers.
Crown and QSC seem to be favorites.
While not many audiophiles use them,
Mark Lanctot;172055 Wrote:
Getting back on topic, there are a lot of components of pro amps at AVS
Forum. Pro amps are available in music stores, so no big markup. They
are very robust, quite well protected and can power low impedance
speakers.
Crown and QSC seem to be favorites.
P Floding;172047 Wrote:
OK, I misread your earlier post.
Then we both agree that Fig 4 at
http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=20blogId=1
actually indicated a constant level signal related distortion
mechanism? I.e a fixed size discontinuity in the transfer
P Floding;172056 Wrote:
Yeah, and do you believe such amps are used in the 0.1 Watt range very
often? Sound reinforcement and the like is not comparable to audio
reproduction in the home.
Actually my response was directed to the OP, but it looks like we're
not interested in answering his
Mark Lanctot;172058 Wrote:
Actually my response was directed to the OP, but it looks like we're not
interested in answering his question anymore.
But what was it I said about them being bashed? I thought I was being
facetious, but it did really happen in about 3 seconds. Hmm.
I thought
Hi Eric.
If you read the references, in order, they all lead up to making the
last one seem outdated (it's almost 2yo). E.g. the volume control in
the DAC *is* used now, which is precisely the point of the more recent
link directly above it.
--
Skunk
P Floding;172061 Wrote:
I thought you read the later posts and just wanted to chime in?
Certainly looked that way to me.
No, I'm actually behind my reading considerably. I should have quoted
the OP's first post, sorry. Fixed now.
Sure, one could buy a PA-amp and hope it will sound nice.
opaqueice;172057 Wrote:
On closer examination it's a bit more complicated. Model the measured
response as A = A0 + N(A0)^n, where N is some constant. The case
considered above was n=0. However for any n this will look linear on
that plot, with a slope that depends on n (and the linear
I think Fifer has has TP connected directly to his NAP250, at least it
appears so from his sig. You could contact him for info.
Cheers
Richard
--
magnanimous
magnanimous's Profile:
Mark Lanctot;172063 Wrote:
No, I'm actually behind my reading considerably. I should have quoted
the OP's first post, sorry. Fixed now.
I will grant you that some of these amps use fan-cooled heatsinks.
Yes, that is a big issue in a typical listening room, but there are
ways around
Eric Carroll;171975 Wrote:
I will probably create a ConnectToPreAmp page too to discuss that issue
and link it in to the beginner's page (depending on what MarkL does per
abive).
This would mesh perfectly if you turned analog point 10 into a big
hyperlink like I did with points 8 and 9.
--
P Floding;172065 Wrote:
Eh.. I'm sure you are about to tell me?
Anyway, the distortion figures will be a combination of crossover
distortion (dominant for very small signals) and other non-linearities.
The curve doesn't represent a single distortion mechanism.
Actually I have no idea - it
Skunk;172059 Wrote:
Hi Eric.
If you read the references, in order, they all lead up to making the
last one seem outdated (it's almost 2yo). E.g. the volume control in
the DAC *is* used now, which is precisely the point of the more recent
link directly above it.
Sorry, maybe its just the
Mark
nice work... I think the only point I'd want to debate is your
assumption that we don't need to cover the Transporter as their owners
are unlikely to be beginners: not beginners in audio, almost certainly,
but could easily be complete novices in slimserver or computer based
audio.
Ceejay
Ya, I was thinking about adding a Transporter section at the bottom.
Mark, is that ok?
--
Eric Carroll
Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293
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Skunk;172059 Wrote:
Hi Eric.
If you read the references, in order, they all lead up to making the
last one seem outdated (it's almost 2yo). E.g. the volume control in
the DAC *is* used now, which is precisely the point of the more recent
link directly above it.
Are you sure about that?
TurnipMan;172048 Wrote:
Thanks for the quick response. The Wiki entry does explain some of the
issues, but does not give the tech details for Naim power amps and also
Naim use funny plugs and sockets so I'd like to know where I could get
the components or a suitable made up cable in the UK.
empty99;170653 Wrote:
P Floding asked: How does running SB3 directly into the pot sound
compared to using the MF?
The silly audiophile in me sez no way the puny SB3 can outsound the
20lbs MF DAC, so I haven't tried it yet. The unit is currently at Slim
for repair. But I did a little
opaqueice;172070 Wrote:
Actually I have no idea - it was a question! I agree it's not a single
mechanism, although it fits a power law so well (and with nice powers)
that I suspect there's a simple explanation.
In any case the initial conclusion is supported - this amp has much
less
Eric Carroll;172077 Wrote:
Ya, I was thinking about adding a Transporter section at the bottom.
Mark, is that ok?
Absolutely, as you indicated, it's a wiki.
I just didn't want to include it in the list with everything else. It
has so many extra connections that would have to be explained:
rajacat;172049 Wrote:
Not to split hairs but are you being polite to the TP because your are
on the Slim Devices forum? Your 12/19/06 comments on AC seem to
contradict much of what you have stated in your post that pretty much
bashes the Bolder SB. I don't really know what your true opinion
Seems I have about +/-0.5 volts peek-to-peek on the outputs. And even
then my volume is a bit high to overcome the noise of the laptop's
fan.
sqr(U)/R gives 0.5^2 / 8 = 0.031 Watts peek, or 0.022 Watts RMS.
I believe my KSA-50S switches to its first higher bias level at about
0.7 Watts, and I
Just thought I'd congratulate you for your community service.
cheers,
Michael
--
totoro
squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4
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Bummer, I don't have mine yet, they must be mailed alphabetically ...
;-)
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SB3 - PS Audio Trio C-100 - Revel Concerta F12's
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View this
P Floding;172085 Wrote:
I can't agree with your conclusions.
We simply don't know what the curve would have looked like in the sub
1W range. Of course, it is entirely possible the measured crossover
distortion in Hi-fi World's test was due to a one-off production
problem, and that normally
opaqueice;172104 Wrote:
What was the result?
In figure 3 (which is for an 8 ohm load) the THD+N is measured down to
.1 W. It's true that the curve might change below that - there's no
way to know, of course. But .1 W is already a pretty low level, and we
saw that if the (very linear)
P.S: I think it is on topic to point out the possible fallacies of
getting P/A-style amplifiers for home use.
--
P Floding
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P Floding;172106 Wrote:
See my last post.
I don't think a large fixed low level non-linearity is going to follow
your extrapolation. I think it will massively distort low level
signals. It's a know fact that crossover distortion sounds horrible.
Please note that my measurements of the power
Eric Carroll;172079 Wrote:
Are you sure about that?
My understanding is that PREAMP volume control is implemented in the
DAC, but VOLUME control is implemented in the CPU.
Yeah I shouldn't have used that example. The more contradictory thing
in the old post is the the statement 'you don't
One minor point - somewhere in there was a link to a post by Sean Adams
where he states that each level on the 100 point volume scale is a dB.
I think it's .5 dB actually, and IIRC he corrects himself later in that
thread.
--
opaqueice
opaqueice;172110 Wrote:
OK, interesting. Re: the A500, I don't have access to the other review,
but from the audiocritic data there's no reason to think this is
crossover distortion - it doesn't scale the way you say it should - and
it's linear over nearly two orders of magnitude in power,
opaqueice;172110 Wrote:
I don't have access to the other review, but from the audiocritic data
there's no reason to think this is crossover distortion - it doesn't
scale the way you say it should ...
P.S: If you'd have seen the screen-shot of the sine wave you'd say
there was crossover
Just to make a quick comment, I tried the Transporter and found it
excellent, but I just couldn't justify the price tag. I'm not sure if
the following sentence makes any sense; I can't really identify
anything that it should have done better, but for $2K it need to be in
jaw dropping territory.
Haven't seen it yet either... can we get a synopsis? (don't copy please)
--
seanadams
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P Floding;172109 Wrote:
P.S: I think it is on topic to point out the possible fallacies of
getting P/A-style amplifiers for home use.
Yes, it is. But you've clearly listened to a lot of equipment. I would
guess that the OP would get a lot more benefit from you recommending
something else.
There are _lots_ of really good used amps selling in the 500-1000 range.
Even if opaqueice is right about the behringer amp, if it's anything
like the other behringer equipment I've seen, it's crapshoot. I've seem
some behringer stuff that was great, and some that was awful.
I will say in their
seanadams wrote:
Haven't seen it yet either... can we get a synopsis? (don't copy please)
Starts out comparing streamed audio to a turd, and asks if the
Transporter is polishing a turd.
Good thing that the rest of the article, both subjective and objective
is glowing. So I think the
rajacat;172049 Wrote:
I don't really know what your true opinion is!
Raja
seems pretty clear to me. he has refined his view (very politely). not
sure what the problem is.
ta.
h.
--
Howie
Howie's Profile:
95bcwh;172095 Wrote:
Why does it matter what his opinion is
Exactly, 95. Why does it matter? It shouldn't matter to anyone but
myself.
I guess anyone's opinion can serve as a possible suggestion what to
audition but that is as far as it should go.
I think everyone should listen and then
mlsstl;172122 Wrote:
Just to make a quick comment, I tried the Transporter and found it
excellent, but I just couldn't justify the price tag. I'm not sure if
the following sentence makes any sense; I can't really identify
anything that it should have done better, but for $2K it need to be in
In addition to what Pat has said, it measured extremely well. I believe
the quote was state of the art D/A performance. The only slight
negative was he said his reference Ayre C-5xe provided higher
resolution than the Transporter but only slightly noticeably.
--
wshields
wshields;172137 Wrote:
In addition to what Pat has said, it measured extremely well. I believe
the quote was state of the art D/A performance. The only slight
negative was he said his reference Ayre C-5xe provided higher
resolution than the Transporter but only slightly noticeably.
High
tomjtx;172136 Wrote:
So there is a 400.00 difference , not 1,000.00
Lots of people in the position to make such a choice will have to spend
$1k more though, because they will likely have already bought an sb3.
Being forced to buy another sb3 when they already have one makes it a
$1k
Build quality isn't great - I went to look at one, although I wasn't
able to listen to it. Adequate, but not excellent. That's what you
get for $170.
I use a modified version of optimized.drc. The improvement is
dramatic, and easily measurable. I'm happy to discuss that more in
another
Skunk;172143 Wrote:
Lots of people in the position to make such a choice will have to spend
$1k more though, because they will likely have already bought an sb3.
Being forced to buy another sb3 when they already have one makes it a
$1k differenc between upgrading to Lavry vs. Transporter. [I
tomjtx;172152 Wrote:
Actually it makes it 700.00 more not 1,000
Tp 2,000 -
Sb3Lavry 1,300
= 700.00
However, a savy consumer who already has an SB3 could bargain with a
dealer to reduce the price to 1,700.00 don't you think?
You ignored the word upgrade, which is what
But you should compare the prices fairly.
Tp is 1,700.00 when you account for the free SB3: 2,000.00 -
300.00
1. You should be aware that the Transporter no longer comes with a free
$300 Squeezebox. So that's $300 off the table and we're up to a $700
difference.
2. I didn't pay $1,000 for
On the question of the audibility of differences between amps, this is a
thoughtful and thorough article from Stereo Review (which I hadn't seen
before). The results are unsurprising.
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf
--
opaqueice
Skunk;172112 Wrote:
Yeah I shouldn't have used that example. The more contradictory thing in
the old post is the the statement 'you don't lose any resolution',
whereas that's corrected in the long post.
I'm sure nobody but me will notice :-) Carry on.
Thank you!
--
Eric Carroll
opaqueice;172113 Wrote:
One minor point - somewhere in there was a link to a post by Sean Adams
where he states that each level on the 100 point volume scale is a dB.
I think it's .5 dB actually, and IIRC he corrects himself later in that
thread.
ooh, nice catch! I rea somewhere and thus
totoro;172101 Wrote:
Just thought I'd congratulate you for your community service.
cheers,
Michael
I am sure I speak for MarkL (and I know I speak for myself) when I say
thank you! Not like we get more SB3s or anything ;-) Since this is my
first wiki creation (such as it is) postive
Skunk;172158 Wrote:
You ignored the word upgrade, which is what I meant when I said have
already bought an sb3, and upgrading to Lavry vs Transporter.
Person + Sb3:
can purchase Lavry for 1k
or
can purchase Transporter for 2k
Also, a $300 discount when ordering from Slim Devices
tomjtx wrote:
Also, a $300 discount when ordering from Slim Devices directly (if you
have an sb3) would give your argument more weight.
I see your point Skunk, there are several ways of comparing prices.
Maybe we should consult an economics forum :-)
So we add the dismal science to the
Eric Carroll;172179 Wrote:
I am sure I speak for MarkL (and I know I speak for myself) when I say
thank you! Not like we get more SB3s or anything ;-) Since this is my
first wiki creation (such as it is) postive feedback is definately
appreciated.
Yes, thanks totoro. I didn't respond
Eric Carroll;172079 Wrote:
Are you sure about that?
My understanding is that PREAMP volume control is implemented in the
DAC, but VOLUME control is implemented in the CPU.
That is true, but they are still both the same kind of digital
function. Although the preamp control is done in the
Mark Lanctot;172195 Wrote:
Yes, thanks totoro. I didn't respond because I wasn't sure who you were
addressing - Eric got this thread started and ceejay gave a good idea.
Sorry. I meant to include everyone involved, with an extra bump to the
OP for initiative :).
cheers,
Michael
--
totoro
Another one to check out, the CIAudio VDA-2:
http://www.ciaudio.com/vda2.html
--
USAudio
SB3 - PS Audio Trio C-100 - Revel Concerta F12's
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I would not mimimize how positive this review is. Wes Phillips liked it
a great deal and basically said he liked it better than the SB3 through
a Musical Fidelity DAC, which is a pretty darned good digital source.
Atkinson's measurements show superb performance of both the DAC and the
analog
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