NewBuyer;226256 Wrote:
As I understood it, when an incoming signal to an upsampler or
upsampling DAC is already 24-bit (like say a digitally attenuated
signal from an SB3 S/PDIF output), there may be some amount of word
length reduction done immediately prior to the upsampling and
adamslim;225816 Wrote:
The SB3 volume control is quite transparent - it all works at 24 bits,
so for CDs does not truncate bits (the major quality loss) until you
are reducing volume really quite a lot. However, it will increase the
S/N ratio in the DAC, which will have a small impact on
that sounds very close to what I'm hearing
I'd still rather use a good old analogue pot !
--
zanash
Acoustician and builder of interesting cables
zanash's Profile:
opaqueice;226264 Wrote:
My point is very simple. Rounding errors like that can only affect the
last digit. So the worst thing that can happen is that the
volume-reduced result is off by an amount equal to half the 24th digit.
On the other hand the last three digits are lost in noise anyway
eiret;226334 Wrote:
Using my calculator. Multiply 16bit decimal value 65535 with
0,35(%error) and converting it back to binary it only affect the last
bit. Just likes as you explained.
Yes well whatever - but you are missing the point that it's NOT 16-bit
it is 24-bit and the error of
cliveb;226283 Wrote:
OK, now I see what you are getting at. My response would to ask why on
earth any upsampler expecting to be taken seriously would do such a
stupid thing. Do you have any examples of upsamplers that do this?
Hi cliveb,
Yes that's my response too! I was very surprised to
eiret wrote:
Every time we are using digital volumecontrol, i quote from the
guide(dont know if it is allowed?): To apply gain or attenuation to a
digital audio signal, a multiplication is performed on each digital
sample that collectively create the digital audio signal.
If we use
NewBuyer;226069 Wrote:
A little digital attenuation might not be a bad thing these days, with
the current trend of recording so close to the 0dbfs level (sometimes
even exceeding it).
I'm also told that hardware implementations (including recent
upsampling dacs) that natively widen an
I don't class my self as an expert in the digital side of things and
certainly not on the minutia of the sb3 .
What I can hear if I turn the volume down using the sb3 and turning up
the analogue volume to match the original volume, is a softening of the
sound a little like a telescope going
Phil Leigh;226102 Wrote:
Do you have any more information on this? As previously explained, any
differences in the lowest 3-4 bits won't be detectable anyway - but
I'd like to know where this story comes from
Hi Phil,
Most recently I heard this from GW Labs, which makes 'the excellent DSP
NewBuyer;226124 Wrote:
Most recently I heard this from GW Labs, which makes 'the excellent DSP
upsampling device' (http://www.gw-labs.com/products/index.html) based
on the CS8420 I believe. Digital volume control still works from the
SB3 through this device (like with other upsamplers and
zanash;226123 Wrote:
What I can hear if I turn the volume down using the sb3 and turning up
the analogue volume to match the original volume, is a softening of the
sound a little like a telescope going out of focus.
Point 1: Nobody has ever suggested that the SB's digital volume control
Being an IT person (like others on the forum) I guess I am less scared
of some of these digital processes.
Upsampling doesn't destroy any information. (Downsampling might.) For
example, if you have a photo sized 300 pixels by 200 pixels on
computer, and expand it to 600 by 400 pixels, you do not
PS: Eiret, I'm glad your calculator agrees with me that upscaling from
16 bit to 24 bit multiplies the numbers by 256 :-)
Yes, the calculator agree approximately. There is a bit missing. I dont
remember why. To day i had a wake up call at 11:11, its true.
--
eiret
eiret;226132 Wrote:
To day i had a wake up call at 11:11, its true.
LOL! Brilliant.
Yeah, what happens is that 8 bits can represent 2^8 states (256). That
means numbers 0 to 255 - since 0 is one of the states.
So 8 bits can represent any number up to 2^8-1. 16 bits can represent
any number
darrenyeats;226133 Wrote:
LOL! Brilliant.
Yeah, what happens is that 8 bits can represent 2^8 states (256). That
means numbers 0 to 255 - since 0 is one of the states.
So 8 bits can represent any number up to 2^8-1. 16 bits can represent
any number up to 2^16-1 etc.
Regards, Darren
darrenyeats;226129 Wrote:
And if this upscaling is done to a sufficient degree it means that
subsequent volume attenuation might still not impact that information
content - you still have the original resolution encoded in the
signal. (This depends on the level of upscaling, and the amount
opaqueice;226140 Wrote:
I'm very confused by this discussion. According to Sean the TP can
resolve 21 bits, which means the last three are meaningless (and for
the SB it's considerably worse). Rounding errors from digital
attenuation can only ever affect the last bit. So what are we
OK I'll have a go:
No, properly implemented digital level control does not compromise or
degrade audio quality in a way that a human being (not a calculator)
can detect, provided that it is used sensibly - i.e.the level is not
attenuated too much. For the SB/TP that means keeping the level
opaqueice;226140 Wrote:
I'm very confused by this discussion. According to Sean the TP can
resolve 21 bits, which means the last three are meaningless (and for
the SB it's considerably worse). Rounding errors from digital
attenuation can only ever affect the last bit. So what are we
Phil Leigh;226156 Wrote:
OK I'll have a go:
No, properly implemented digital level control does not compromise or
degrade audio quality in a way that a human being (not a calculator)
can detect, provided that it is used sensibly - i.e.the level is not
attenuated too much. For the SB/TP
The point is, there doesn't seem to be ANY real difference between
analogue and digital volume controls, even in principle.
opaqueice,
I am interested in your meaning after reading the guide.
If you have time, please read trough this section of this guide :
Digital volumecontrols.
cliveb;226126 Wrote:
Sorry, am I missing something here? It's an upsampler. You can't expect
the bits to remain unaltered during such a process.
Hi cliveb,
More likely that I am missing something, instead of you! As I
understood it, when an incoming signal to an upsampler or upsampling
DAC is
eiret;226237 Wrote:
Binary numbers, just like decimal numbers, do not always multiply and
divide evenly. There are often remainders - extra digits that are a
result of the multiplication.
My point is very simple. Rounding errors like that can only affect the
last digit. So the worst
seanadams;225886 Wrote:
Transporter sure gets close... it can definitely resolve 21 bits.
Cool - that's literally a bit better than most ROTFL
Sounds like strapline to me!
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
I am not an audiophile, i post here anyway.
Experts recommend analog volum control and digital volum set to 100%.
You are all agree about that i think. Since you cant hear any decrease
in audio quality when using digital volume compare to analog volum
control, i think we are using 24 or 16 bit
eiret;225972 Wrote:
I am not an audiophile, i post here anyway.
Experts recommend analog volum control and digital volum set to 100%.
You are all agree about that i think. Since you cant hear any decrease
in audio quality when using digital volume compare to analog volum
control, i think we
Phil Leigh;225999 Wrote:
I'm not quite sure who these experts are that you refer to, but I'd
take more notice of the fact that some of the nicest setups in use on
this forum are using a TP directly into active speakers such as
ATC100's. These are very revealing setups. Clearly the experts
eiret;226012 Wrote:
The experts are here
http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in
the computer audio playback setup guide, and have noted this
sentence:
Disasterous distortion can potentially arise when
cliveb;226016 Wrote:
Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in
the computer audio playback setup guide, and have noted this
sentence:
Please note the very important words can and potentially in this
sentence. Just because something *can* happen doesn't mean it
cliveb;226016 Wrote:
Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in
the computer audio playback setup guide,
Here is the mathematic : EXAMPLE (decimal numbers are used for
simplicity):
When multipling 21 by 0.5 (equation: 21 * 0.5), the result is 10.5.
The
eiret;226036 Wrote:
cliveb;226016 Wrote:
Presumably you are referring to the digital volume control section in
the computer audio playback setup guide,
Here is the mathematic : EXAMPLE (decimal numbers are used for
simplicity):
When multipling 21 by 0.5 (equation: 21 * 0.5),
darrenyeats;226041 Wrote:
eiret;226036 Wrote:
So, in your example, the sound amplitude is represented as 21.
But if you multiply 21 by 256 first (which is like what happens when
you upsample from 16 bits to 24 bits) the amplitude is now represented
by 5376. Divide 5376 by 2
eiret;226048 Wrote:
darrenyeats;226041 Wrote:
8bit = 255
16bit = 65535
24bit = 16777215
start-programs-accesories-calculator-push advanced-place a tick on
bin-type 8bits -place a tick on dec=255
Do the same again with 16 1`s and 24 1`s.
What happens
A little digital attenuation might not be a bad thing these days, with
the current trend of recording so close to the 0dbfs level (sometimes
even exceeding it).
I'm also told that hardware implementations (including recent
upsampling dacs) that natively widen an input S/PDIF signal to 24-bit
If you think you are going to actually hear a 1 in 16 million
error...you are wrong!
As i pointed out before. Maybe not audible. It is measureable
mathematically according to the guide that was linked in my post. It
can be more than 1 bit and sample rates, or just maybe only loss of
sample
Hello,
I've just bought a SB3. I use the analog outputs in my good quality
pre-amplifier/amplifier.
I'm used to adjust sound level on my amp, not the listening device,
however I saw that the SB3 had volume adjustment.
So I guess that there is some kind of pre-amplifier in the SB3, is this
right,
adamslim;225816 Wrote:
The SB3 volume control is quite transparent - it all works at 24 bits,
so for CDs does not truncate bits (the major quality loss) until you
are reducing volume really quite a lot. However, it will increase the
S/N ratio in the DAC, which will have a small impact on
The SB3 volume control is quite transparent - it all works at 24 bits,
so for CDs does not truncate bits (the major quality loss) until you
are reducing volume really quite a lot. However, it will increase the
S/N ratio in the DAC, which will have a small impact on quality - but
this may be less
The main SB3 volume control work in the digital domain, it's best to
leave this at 0Db/100%
If most music still sounds too loud compared to your other inputs to
the pre-amplifier/amplifier, use the slimserver web-interface and goto
Home / Player Settings for {SB3 name} / Audio.
In the PREAMP
cliveb;225841 Wrote:
And IMHO you can also add to the ever-growing audio myth pile true
24-bit audio. Is there *any* device out there in the real world with a
noise floor down at -144dB?
(PS. I also think the digital volume control works just fine).
Clive - by true 24-bit I simply mean
Phil Leigh;225826 Wrote:
I think we can add this to the ever-growing audio myth pile (you know -
along with coax is always better than toslink - that sort of thing!)
By the way, even with true 24-bit audio I reckon you can probably lose
the last 4 bits or so without anyone actually
Phil Leigh;225846 Wrote:
Clive - by true 24-bit I simply mean that the files were (allegedly)
recorded at 24-bit resolution. My whole point is that the last 4 bits
don't have anything but noise in them IMHO - so I think we are agreeing
:o)
It certainly is possible to record 24-bit - I've
You can't agree here - this is the -Audiophile- forum!
--
adamslim
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others
http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
artists'
Transporter sure gets close... it can definitely resolve 21 bits.
--
seanadams
seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38233
45 matches
Mail list logo
