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How others can call us the main-stream Baha'is? Any individual could
be either a Baha'i or non-Baha'i. There is nothing in between.
I don't think we can expect non-Baha'is to accept that premise, Firouz.
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You are
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I think by using the word
mainstream in front of Baha'is we are creating disunity.
It's a good point, but it will only cause disunity if the Bahais
think that the mainstream Bahais are some core group within the Bahai
community.
Covenant-breaker is a term that
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This is a Muslim group
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On 31/12/2010 12:55 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I think Baha'is are only true Muslims.
So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves?
They can call themselves by their sect names, i.e. Sunni or Shia. As
they have not fully understood
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I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says
something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment.
Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no
personal attacks, content should be relevant
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So basically Ibn Ishaq agrees that Nakhlah was intended as a reconnaissance
mission.
Bahais, wake up already. Gilberto and Matt are just two examples, but
Muslims are on a reconnaissance mission here, have recruited others, and are
recruiting people here, to
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I can let a lot of comments slide, and I have, but sometimes it just gets
too much (considering the Islamophobia that is current in Europe and the
U.S.) I am sure if a Baha'i were on a Muslim list, and someone started
saying things about the Baha'i Faith that
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From: bounce-549420-27...@list.jccc.edu
[mailto:bounce-549420-27...@list.jccc.edu] On Behalf Of Iskandar Hai, M.D.
Sent: 31 December 2010 06:26
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
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I find the idea
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Khazeh sends with spellings checked this time. Please discard the last one
On Behalf Of Iskandar Hai, M.D.
Sent: 31 December 2010 06:26
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Dr Hai wrote:
***
I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the
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How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the righteous
and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think ungodly really
means atheist here.
Dear Firouz,
I don't think so either. Abdu'-Baha applied this passage to the
Covenant breakers.
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So you can't go on pilgrimage to Mecca. What's your point.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ
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List purpose? Excuse me? What is the purpose of a Baha'i studies list? To
continue to hear from Gilberto that Islam is the last religion, Quran the
last word, and Muhammad the last prophet of God, again and again, and again?
Dear Iskandar,
I don't think it was
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Gilberto and Matt are just two examples, but
Muslims are on a reconnaissance mission here, have recruited others, and are
recruiting people here, to attack the Bahais where it hurts, from within.
If so, you are likely one of them.
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On 31/12/2010 10:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote:
Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran
with spirit of joy and spirituality?
None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being
insulted.
I did not mean the Muslims in this Forum
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Abdu'l-Baha refers to this particular HW in one of his oral statements
quoted in Khatirat Habib, and says that it refers to the enemies of God.
The phrase enemies of God may include Covenant-breakers, but that's a
slippery slope (because as Firouz rightly says may then
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And the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke
simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in
his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I
intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a
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I do not think the solution is to expel Gilberto, but the moderator would do
well not to allow litanic discussions on the relationship between the Faith
and the Islam.
Dear Husayn,
Until discussions began to disintegrate recently, the recent
discussions about the
:23 PM
Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad
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It may be that the college only permits list owners to have those
privileges, and only permits people to be list owners who are affiliated w/
the college.
No, the problem has to do with the fact that when they moved the list
over
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I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says
something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment.
Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no
personal attacks, content should be
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. Would it be offensive to
say mainstream Bahais?
That's the phrase I prefer.
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: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
Asunto: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 04:23 pm
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. Would it be offensive to
say mainstream Bahais?
That's the phrase I prefer
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On 31 Dec 2010 at 16:20, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
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I don't have a problem with avoiding the phrase. It wasn't meant to be
provocative or insulting. But as an outsider to the conflicts between
different groups which all claim to follow
, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com escribió:
De: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
Asunto: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 07:02 pm
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there are the denominations
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Dear Susan,
Yes, I know that most are not organizations. My point was that the single word
Baha'i is easy to identify how the group of people who recognize and obey the
UHJ. but, well, it is a relative perception.
BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? Is the alias
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BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth?
The BUPC has splintered into several groups since Leland Jensen died.
I think Neal Chase's group might be the largest.
Is the alias J.T. Lamb his?
That I don't know.
How many members does this group?
I don't think any of
was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
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Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group
of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called
covenant-breakers.
The problem Firouz, is that non-Baha'is are going
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Calling Baha'is mainstream or Haifan, implies that there is some
validity to the covenant breakers claims.
I don't think mainstream implies that. I think it implies that at most
these other groups are offshoots.
And Happy Birthday on Monday!
Thanks.
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On 1/1/2011 12:15 PM, Susan Maneck wrote:
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Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group
of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called
covenant-breakers.
The problem Firouz, is
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On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote:
My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam.
Dear Susan,
Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever
they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is
not the
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Susan stop making things up. Abdulbaha never said all of mohammed's actions
were defensive. What does defensive mean anyway? Killing is killing either
way.
Sent by iPhone
On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies
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Susan, you don't know Baha'i writings.
Sent by iPhone
On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:10 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Just warfare is in the context of collective security, in order to stop an
aggressor.
So is jihad when
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Susan is a Muslim just like Sen. I'm telling you.
On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:28 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com
wrote:
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I am just stating the facts. You draw your own conclusions. So, the raids
were ordered by Muhammad
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*In my Church and State and on my blog, I've presented an alternative
explanation of the role of Muhammad and the Meccan Muslims in Medina.*
Sen your blog is a front for Muslim expansion. You are an anti-Bahai. We
atheists see you! :)
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The founder of Bahaism abolished Jihad and the dispensation of the
Quran and all other unholy Books like the Hindu books.
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Muslims get no latitude until they FIRST give freedom to atheists in Muslims
countries.
You have no right to speak here among atheists.
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Since when are we obligated to accept `Abdu'l-Baha's judgment on a matter of
history? And history of another religion?
I see. So you don't think Abdu'l-Baha knew anything about Muhammad's
motivations.
An unprovoked raid is an act of offense.
Last I heard
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Susan is a covenant breaker
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Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they
believe as Islamic.
Granted, but this is not what Iskandar is attacking. He is having a
temper tantrum because he doesn't want Gilberto on this list. I've not
seen Gilberto representing any of
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I think perennialism leaves us
in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather
pleased to see the House of Justice criticize that attitude in their
recent letter to the Counsellors.
Same here, tho I think what they are objecting to is not
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Is the letter available to the public online?
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Don Calkins
montana...@great-falls.net wrote:
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I think perennialism leaves us
in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather
pleased to
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Read your Iqan.
Atheist trumps all beliefs and faiths, it is certain.
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Is the letter available to the public online?
It is being passed around the internet, but I don't think it is on any
particular website. It was just released a day or so ago. It outlines
the next Five Year Plan and most of it would not be of use to you, but
let me see
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
I am a man from Mars. Argue your points from a rational point of
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sen, what you are desrcribing is police or sheriff function.
I'm talking about jihad the way it is normally understood to mean. Holy War,
or unholy war. When someone puts a sword to your neck until you say the
shahadah. That's ugly and unholy.
Baha'u'llah did not
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Since when are we obligated to accept `Abdu'l-Baha's judgment on a matter
of history? And history of another religion?
I see. So you don't think Abdu'l-Baha knew
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
I am telling you what your Muslim texts say. That's all.
Ibn Ishaq and the other sources you referenced aren't Muslim texts.
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Nice. So, now, I am the bad guy. I am having a temper tantrum. Thanks for
the ad hominem, Susan. Go ahead. Hurl more personal attacks on me.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Respecting Islam is not
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You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text.
It's in Bukhari too.
There are dark passages in the Quran as well. Beating your wife is one. Not
befriending
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Iskandar wrote: It is `Abdu'l-Baha's understang and judgement of history. I am
not sure we are obligated to just swallow it whole, uncritically.
I say: No it is not. Abdulbaha was being diplomatic by covering muhammad's
sins and the satanic origins of Quran. With
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text.
I
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Don't compare Baha'i to Islam. There is no comparison.
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So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether?
Earlier you were saying that the raids were for purposes of getting their
property back. Now you are questioning the early sources? How convenient.
There were more than half a dozen raids, not all of them
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Of course he will deny it. He believes allah, some guy with a long beard,
send the koran to muhammad. How could this koran possibly say anything
improper, and how could mohamed do anything improper?
Moses wasnt a murderer according to this guy.
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether?
No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack
defenseless caravans in
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No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. Maybe it is and maybe
it is not. But it is in early histories. Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq
was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. But stories about Muhammad's caravan
raids are in Bukhari. Are you saying ibn
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Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq
was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian.
Actually there are historians who question the historicity of what is
said to have happened to the Banu Qurayza. They suggest Ibn Ishaq
relied to heavily on Jewish sources which conflated what
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is the second time you have projected the anti-Muslim Jewish
historian comment onto Gilberto, and yet he has not made that statement a
single time..Not exactly the most fair tactic.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually there are historians who question the historicity of what is
said to have happened to the Banu Qurayza. They suggest Ibn Ishaq
relied to heavily on Jewish sources which conflated what happened in
Medina with what happened at Masada centuries earlier.
Some
Sender: bounce-549367-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:54:29
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is the second time you have projected the anti-Muslim Jewish
historian
2010 15:41:02
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq
was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian.
Actually there are historians who question the historicity
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Walid N. Arafat and Barakat
Ahmadhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakat_Ahmad have
disputed that the Banu Qurayza were killed on quite such a large
scale.[62]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#cite_note-Meri1-61
Sounds like the Iranian policy that not that many
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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No, I did not say that particular
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Watt finds Arafat's arguments not entirely
convincing,[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#cite_note-Kurayza-0
while
Meir J. Kister has contradicted the arguments of Arafat and
Ahmad.[66]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#cite_note-65
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Yes, you should respect all people regardless of their religious
affiliations. Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion
says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect
people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Matt, you are lying, if it was beautiful you'd be Baha'i.
Firuz has it backwards. Individual persons are supposed to be respected, but
false ideologies and harmful philosophies are rejected.
Religious ideas are harmful to society, especially quranic ideas.
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What about the caravan raids?
What about them. The Meccans had expelled the Muslims and expropriated
their property. The caravans raids were attempts to address that
wrong. It doesn't have to be the same exact property. As for Muslim
breaking carrying this out during
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Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion
says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect
people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings.
The Writings go further than that. They say we should consort
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Susan, is there a reason you are INSISTING that Muhamed did nothing wrong?
Jesus's was an illegitimate child (Mary had sex outside marriage) and Moses was
murderer. But Muhammad is sinless? A Muslim is a Muslim
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There is no hatred nor resentment on my part.
Your behaviour suggests otherwise.
The issues are the facts
And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose?
Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high
time for you
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Susan is intentionally spinning things again. I would be delighted to
discuss other topics with matt and Gilberto, like football or video games.
Would love that discussion even if they are muslims (consort with all
people). But if they want to discuss religion,
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Matt,
Please don't misinterpret the Teaching of my religion. Are you saying I
should respect the Iranian Islamic rulers for whatever they believe and
for whatever they do to my fellow Iranian Baha'is, just because they are
Muslims? Where have you found such
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Dear Susan,
How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the
righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think
ungodly really means atheist here. Thinking about the Persian word
(ashrAr) means more to me as enemies. I think your
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Dear Susan,
How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the
righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think
ungodly really means atheist here. Thinking about the Persian word
(ashrAr) means more to me
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Matt should definitely answer for himself, but I thought your response
was really a good example.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:38 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote:
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Please don't misinterpret the Teaching of my religion.
I think that
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On 31/12/2010 11:25 AM, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Speaking for myself, you should feel free to make all kinds of
specific criticisms of the actions of the Iranian government. But then
when you characterize their negative practices as Islamic then you
give the impression
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I think respect applies to persons, not to ideas or belief systems or
ideologies. If you critique a Christian or Islamic doctrine, belief, law, or
teaching, it doesn't mean you are disrespecting the Christian or Muslim
person. That's why you consort with people of all
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Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't
find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to
or from Atlanta.
The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did
Muhammad abrogate the four
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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There is no hatred nor resentment on my part.
Your behaviour suggests otherwise.
Well, what can I say.
This is not the first time that you are wrong.
The
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Anyone who finds *my* behaviour offensive is free to leave.
It won't surprise me, however, if Susan magically finds the tool to remove
members and removes me first.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Not that I have any value for this list whatsoever, but if Iskandar is
removed, please remove me too.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com
wrote:
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Anyone who finds *my* behaviour offensive is free
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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who
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Jesus Christ told the Jews that if they had known Moses, they would have
known or accepted Him (Jesus). And I believe both The Bab and Baha'u'llah
reiterate the same notion in many instances.
I think what you say, dear Firouz, is quite profound. Thanks.
Best regards,
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On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't
find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to
or
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Dear Susan and Iskandar,
Alláh'u'Abhá
We are all brothers, and beyond differences of opinion, is that spiritual bond.
with all respect and love I say I think that your debate is losing its meaning.
Please take some air, I do not think this is offensive or hurtful to
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I am not interested in knowing what you do when/if you accidentally bump
into an atheist. I couldn't care less.
I am just reading what the text says. Nothing more and nothing less. And
it's not the kind of thing that looks like it will be the last word of God.
Your spin
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote:
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I think Baha'is are only true Muslims.
So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves?
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On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
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On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Oh, that's interesting. Someone
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You can call yourself whatever you want.
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:55 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think
/
--- El vie, 12/31/10, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com escribió:
De: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Asunto: Re: Stealth Jihad
A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de
/
--- El *vie, 12/31/10, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com*escribió:
De: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Asunto: Re: Stealth Jihad
A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 12:55 am
The Baha'i Studies
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From “Fascist-Islamophobia”: A Case Study in Totalitarian Demonization - Part 3
by Dr. Robert Dickson Crane
The true facts of this “notorious” event were quite different, and the
lessons to be learned from it were the exact opposite of Spencer’s
conclusions. This
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No, that is not what I am saying. That is your knee-jerk reaction to what I
am saying. Everything goes back to the Iranian Baha'is. I am sorry for what
is happening to them, but it is not my fault. I speak out, I do what I can,
but it is not my fault.
On Thu, Dec 30,
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say
the least.
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
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From “Fascist-Islamophobia”: A Case Study in Totalitarian
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I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says
something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment.
Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no
personal attacks, content should be relevant to
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On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:26 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com
wrote:
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I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say
the least.
Since you like Ibn Ishaq, here's how he actually describes the event:
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This is part of a McCarthyite attack on academia that has been going
on for the last decade.
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Instead of making a blanket statement, try to analyze and discuss the points
that are made and argued one by one.
Here is a different news report:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_eu/eu_denmark_terror_arrests
What a wonderful religion.
Best regards,
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I completely agree with Iskandar. I carefully watched the entire video and
found nothing in it against academics. I found it factual and consistent
with everything we know about Jihadists.
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What a wonderful religion.
My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam.
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