Re: Computational Autopoetics 1

On 10/17/2012 2:07 AM, Russell Standish wrote: >The self is directly related to the Dx = "xx" trick, for me. The Dx=xx trick is about self-replication. Of course entities with a sense of the self/other distinction needn't replicate (eg certain robots). Hi, I have some papers and list post

Re: Computational Autopoetics 1

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 03:39:18PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 14 Oct 2012, at 23:27, Russell Standish wrote: > > >On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:44:11PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > >>"Computational Autopoetics" is a term I just coined to denote > >>applying basic concepts > >>of autopoetics

Re: Re: Computational Secondness 1 (formerly Computational Autopoetics 1)

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 07:58:35AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Russell Standish > > 1) It is a cruelty of nature to make the two IMHO most powerful thinkers > (Peirce and Leibniz) to be the two most difficult to understand. > I would not throw them out just yet. I'm not. But until someone c

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 10:14 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:42:16 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 10:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:42:16 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: >> >> Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to >> how sense underlies c

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to how sense underlies consciousness and comp. In fact you seem to contradict that claim: I.G., "These

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am official

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 4:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: > > Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to > how sense underlies consciousness and comp. In fact you seem to > contradict that claim: I.G., "These experiential phenomena > (telesemantics, sense, perce

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

I can be the result of a tautological causation: natural selection: what is reasonable? what at a certain level in tjhinking beings achieve survival.. what exist? what help to survive. What survives? what perdures. What perdures? waht reproduces. What reproduces? what is sucessfull. What is suces

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:40:41 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 10:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > *How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a > reason (fails because it is circular) * > > > Seems to be a pun on "reason" = "rational thinking" and "re

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to how sense underlies consciousness and comp. In fact you seem to contradict that claim: I.G., "These experiential phenomena (telesemantics, sense, perception, awareness, consciousness) are different levels of same thing". Comput

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almos

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 12:05 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough c

Re: Continuous Game of Life

Bruno: corn starch is not a fluid (newtinian or not). It is a solid and when dissolved in water (or whatever?) it makes a N.N.fluid -My question about it's 'live, or not' status is: does it provide METABOLISM and REPAIR ? I doubt it. Do not misunderstand me, please: this is not my wor

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On 10/16/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I agree 100%. All 3p related concepts are abstractions constructed from many different 1p's. The idea of "Reality" is a good example of this and it is why I define Reality as "what which is incontrovertible for some collection N (

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything." and now you suggest that consciou

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/16/2012 10:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a reason (fails because it is circular) * Seems to be a pun on "reason" = "rational thinking" and "reason" = "explanatory cause". Brent -- You received this message because yo

Re: Continuous Game of Life

On 10/16/2012 9:37 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:40 PM, meekerdb > wrote: >> If consciousness doesn't do anything then Evolution can't see it, so how and why did Evolution produce it? The fact that you have no answer to this means your

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: > "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost > anything

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:24:07 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 2:17 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:08:49 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 8:54 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: >> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, C

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything." and now you suggest that consciousness is contingent on a level of evoluti

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On 10/16/2012 2:17 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:08:49 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:54 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg> wrote: >> >Computation is an overly simplified emergent propert

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:08:49 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 8:54 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig > > Weinberg> > wrote: > >> >Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you > could > >> >have comput

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you > could > > have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. > > Cra

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:04:24 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > >> > That there are literally "laws" which physics obeys is a fairy tale. >> > > That statement is ignorance pure and simple. > Not at all. I fully aware

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > That there are literally "laws" which physics obeys is a fairy tale. > That statement is ignorance pure and simple. > How can reason be created for a reason (circular) or created not for a reason > I don't understand what part of X i

Re: Continuous Game of Life

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:13:55 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > >> >> >> I know you don't have a proof of the Goldbach Conjecture. Well OK, I >>> don't know that with absolute certainty, maybe you have a proof but are >

Re: Continuous Game of Life

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:40 PM, meekerdb wrote: > > >> If consciousness doesn't do anything then Evolution can't see it, so > how and why did Evolution produce it? The fact that you have no answer to > this means your ideas are fatally flawed. > > > > I don't see this as a *fatal* flaw. Evolu

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:55:44 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? > > > I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly > follow programed rules. Apparently no

Re: Continuous Game of Life

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > I know you don't have a proof of the Goldbach Conjecture. Well OK, I >> don't know that with absolute certainty, maybe you have a proof but are >> keeping it secret for some strange reason, but my knowledge is more than >> diddly squat

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

Hey John, We get it! You are just making sure that when the Singularity happens that the AI Overlords will consider you a useful pet. :-[ On 10/16/2012 11:55 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly follow programed rules. Apparently not. Not only are your ideas foolish they are inconsistently foolish, you can't even

Re: Re: Re: autopoesis

Hi Russell, I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure, it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't emerge un

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

The difference between "consciousness as an emergence from complexity" and "consciousness is a functionality necessary for, and evolved with by natural selection" is that the latter is a falsable theory (if we find an observable effect of consciousness) while the former is not even a theory

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything." and now you suggest that consciousness is contingent on a level of evolution, ala: "... in this stage of evolution a fo

Re: Stephen Hawking: Philosophy is Dead

On 15 Oct 2012, at 18:25, John Mikes wrote: Thanks for a detailed inquisition upon my post. It did not convince me. #1: you postulate to ACCEPT your condition to begin with. I don't. ("once you agree"). That contradicts what is meant usually by "a postulate". You put too much in the t

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

On 10/16/2012 9:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg After looking at how computers make choices-- whether they are free or whatever-- I now see that my previous position that computers have no intelligence was not exactly right, because t

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

On 15 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg After looking at how computers make choices-- whether they are free or whatever-- I now see that my previous position that computers have no intelligence was not exactly right, because they do have intelligence, but it is differe

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 9:36 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything. Most of the time as an excuse for not saying "I don´t know", that is the prerequisite for thinking deeper about the problem. I prefer to say I don´t know. Hi A

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" rather than "is"

2012/10/11 Bruno Marchal > > On 10 Oct 2012, at 20:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > 2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal : >> >>> >>> On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >>> >>> It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know. The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" rather than "is"

2012/10/10 Alberto G. Corona > 2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal : > > > > On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > >> It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know. > >> > >> The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made of > >> zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I ha

Re: Computational Autopoetics 1

On 14 Oct 2012, at 23:27, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:44:11PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: "Computational Autopoetics" is a term I just coined to denote applying basic concepts of autopoetics to the field of comp. You mathematicians are free to do it more justice than I

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything. Most of the time as an excuse for not saying "I don´t know", that is the prerequisite for thinking deeper about the problem. I prefer to say I don´t know. 2012/10/16 Roger Clough > Hi Stephen P. King > > Thank

Re: Computational Autopoetics 1

On 14 Oct 2012, at 22:44, Roger Clough wrote: "Computational Autopoetics" is a term I just coined to denote applying basic concepts of autopoetics to the field of comp. You mathematicians are free to do it more justice than I can. I cannot guarantee that the idea hasn't already been exploi

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that consciousness, arises at (or above ?) the level of noncomputability. He just seems to say that intuiton does. But that just seems to be a conjecture of his. ugh, rclo...@veriz

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Hi Stephen P. King This may have little connection to what you said, but in one of Brain Greene's talks (on time) he made mention that the subjective state, the experiential state, always just experiences "now." Similarly calculations flow in time as they are made, and the one being made is ma

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Hi Stephen P. King Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that consciousness, arises at (or above ?) the level of noncomputability. He just seems to say that intuiton does. But that just seems to be a conjecture of his. ugh, rclo...@verizon.net 10/16/2012 "Forever is a long time

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Hi Craig Weinberg You said, " Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness." That sounds potent, I'm but not sure what it means. Could you expand on it a little ? Roger Clough, rclo...@veri

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On 10/16/2012 8:54 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could >have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. >Craig > Could you provide a link where you

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Hi Richard Ruquist I'm well aware of that, except you don't need Godel to reach an impossibly complex state of calculations. My own position is that if you can't calculate upward any more, you calculate downward. From Platonia, except that you begin to use the forms, numbers, reason, all of t

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On 10/16/2012 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Roger, Philosophers such as Lucas, Hofstadter and Chalmers as well as Penrose and Godel suggest that consciousness may be due to incompleteness itself allowing for emergence... Seehttp://vixra.org/pdf/1101.0044v1.pdf Richard Hi Richard, I only h

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On 10/16/2012 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. Craig Hi Craig, I agree, you would have the "zombie" without sense. By definition! -- Onward!

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more controversial. A tempting idea until we question what it is a simulation of?

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

Hi Roger, On 10/16/2012 7:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ? No! The short answer is that I am proposing that : 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position that consciousness emerges at such a le

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could > have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. > Craig > Could you provide a link where you more fully explain what sense is and how it rel

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

Roger, Philosophers such as Lucas, Hofstadter and Chalmers as well as Penrose and Godel suggest that consciousness may be due to incompleteness itself allowing for emergence... See http://vixra.org/pdf/1101.0044v1.pdf Richard On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Is consciousness

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. Craig On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:50:17 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > > Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex > computatio

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> A possible answer is that all > >> possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that > >> has the kind of physical laws leading to obse

Re: Re: Computational Secondness 1 (formerly Computational Autopoetics 1)

Hi Russell Standish 1) It is a cruelty of nature to make the two IMHO most powerful thinkers (Peirce and Leibniz) to be the two most difficult to understand. I would not throw them out just yet. 2) If somebody can make something useful out of autopoesis, more power to them. At first, it looke

Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ?

Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ? The short answer is that I am proposing that : 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. 2) In addition, that while Godel's incomplet

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> A possible answer is that all >> possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that >> has the kind of physical laws leading to observers. > > > I'm familiar with the Anthropic principle, but what program does it run o