In a message dated 26/05/2007 08:43:24 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
"And that's not all!! They also insist on using their own strange words for
"dog" , "horse", and just about anything. Believe it or not, they actually
have a whole language of their own! This is utterly
In a message dated 5/25/2007 6:49:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Phil hasn't staked out a position except "I don't like this music,
> therefore it's bad music." Yet, he insists that it's a defensible position.
> Something
> is wrong with this picture, but it's not tha
Come on, now. If Phil doesn't want people to pile on, he shouldn't
deliberately go around pushing buttons. He *wanted* to stir up
trouble, and he got what he wanted. I personally think it's a
complete waste of time to engage him on anything, but others are free
to do as they wish, and I abs
Andrew Stiller wrote:
On May 25, 2007, at 1:20 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
All of these people would benefit from absorbing the message of
Wagner's Meistersinger.
That people should support German composers???
No, that people should bring comfortable cushions to sit on for so long.
--
D
Andrew Stiller wrote:
On May 25, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
And so it is at the heart of answering the prosaic question of why
music as
art differs from music as commerce. There is only one moment of
transformation, one pivot-point, that belongs to a work of art.
Fascinat
Andrew Stiller wrote:
On May 25, 2007, at 3:15 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
Sure, I like Bach; I marvel especially at his contrapuntal creativity;
I enjoy the sound of his music.
Me, I like his grinding dissonances!
I like the percussiveness of so much of it -- I used to use it
shirling & neueweise wrote:
The "Phil Daley v. The World" thread has become a flame war.
yeah and one side is using silly putty as ammo.
But we won't say which side that is, so as not to make this any more
antagonistic than it already is. :-)
--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
[snip]>
Kids aren't fixed. Maybe later, when inundated with tonality, their aural
view will narrow. But it doesn't start out that way.
How true that is! What's that line from South Pacific about kids having
to be taught to learn hate before they're six or seven or
Darcy James Argue wrote:
Andrew,
Why are you wasting your time? Of course Phil wants to go there. His
musical tastes ossified at age seven, and he's actually proud of that
fact. I feel rather sorry for him that he's grown so attached to his
blinkers, but, what'cha gonna do?
I never look o
dc wrote:
Andrew Stiller écrit:
Put this down as another example of the French wanting to go it alone
(words like "logiciel"--for "software"-- are another example of that...)
And that's not all!! They also insist on using their own strange words
for "dog" , "horse", and just about anything.
Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
Sure, I like Bach; I marvel especially at his contrapuntal
creativity; I enjoy the sound of his music.
Andrew Stiller wrote:
Me, I like his grinding dissonances!
dhbailey wrote:
I like the percussiveness of so much of it...
And I say:
You're all wrong!
-R
On May 25, 2007, at 11:30 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Andrew,
Why are you wasting your time? Of course Phil wants to go there. His
musical tastes ossified at age seven, and he's actually proud of that
fact. I feel rather sorry for him that he's grown so attached to his
blinkers, but, what'
I noticed that his domain is now down, http://www.gwmp.com/.
Any word on what has happened to Finale Productivity stuff?
___
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http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>Phil -- in my experience, it's not whether a piece is new or old, but
simply
>if it's and .
I agree. But if it's non-tonal, it's not good.
Oh. What do you have against folk and pre-baroque music? In which terms
are they related to [not-so-]contemporary[-anymore] music, that it brings
At 09:14 PM 5/25/2007 +0200, shirling & neueweise wrote:
>this kind of generalization about the state of
>new music really disappoints me, and i have to
>admit, i come across it more from americans than
>any other population
This seems to be my experience. The differences are sometimes striking
a hilarious take on the subject: "if you travel to france, let me
give you word of a warning... it's like those french, have a
different word for everything."
Philosophy/Religion/College/Language
Steve Martin - A Wild and Crazy Guy
--
shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EM
On May 26, 2007, at 7:02 AM, dhbailey wrote:
dc wrote:
Andrew Stiller écrit:
Put this down as another example of the French wanting to go it
alone (words like "logiciel"--for "software"-- are another example
of that...)
And that's not all!! They also insist on using their own strange
words
On 26 May 2007 at 17:19, João Miguel Pais wrote:
> By the way, JS Bach's music wasn't played almost at all in his last
> years, and it pratically disappeared until Mendelsson picked it up
> later (Beethoven and Mozart only got to some scores late in their
> lives).
This old chestnut is not real
On May 26, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
At 09:14 PM 5/25/2007 +0200, shirling & neueweise wrote:
this kind of generalization about the state of
new music really disappoints me, and i have to
admit, i come across it more from americans than
any other population
This seems to
On 26 May 2007 at 12:41, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> I cannot, for example, imagine any
> American boy nowadays being denounced as a "fairy" because he played
> the clarinet.
You must live in an entirely different world than *I* live in!
--
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
Dav
Dennis B-K offered Russell Smith's excellent appraisal in Thursday's Globe &
Mail:
- Original Message -
From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
To: finale@shsu.edu
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
(snip)
How pop
Wait a minute--how can anyone be wrong about what they like? Like any great
composer Bach offers more than just a single attribute, and I think that all
three comments here are very perceptive. When people make blanket statements
to the effect that "all atonal music is crap" I remind them that they
I've always found it interesting that young children can often groove on
music that their older siblings don't consider hip and their parents may not
even consider music. Case in point: my youngest brother who never griped
about music I was listening to (e.g., Mahler, Webern, Nono) unless someone
At 8:42 PM -0400 5/25/07, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
I taught elementary school music for six years.
[snip]
Beyond that, imagine eight-year-olds watching the complete ballet version
of "Rite of Spring" (on video) or going to a performance of "A Soldier's
Tale" -- both attended in rapt silen
I have to differ with Andrew: 'classical' music was really far more popular in
18th/19th century America - and in fact especially in the 20th century than you
imply.In the mid-to-late 1800s American symphony orchestras and opera
companies were sprouting everywhere; every last small town had
Or how 'bout the one about how smart everyone is in France since even the
children can speak French? Or, from the other side, Mark Twain's routine
that he gives to Jim in "Huckleberry Finn" about why you should expect a
Frenchman to speak English even though you'd never expect it from a horse.
Aar
On 26 May 2007 at 10:33, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
> In the mid-to-late 1800s American symphony
> orchestras and opera companies were sprouting everywhere; every last
> small town had its Opera House which was routinely sold out when a
> Jenny Lind or Louis Moreau Gottschalk came through.
This old chestnut is not really true. Bach's keyboard music, for
instance, never quite disappeared. And in Leipzig, he was well-known
and his music was studied and played. The Allgemeine musikalische
Zeitung (published by Breitkopf) has mentions of Bach's music as
early as the first volume, in 179
At 9:35 PM -0400 5/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Let's say, hypothetically, that [someone] doesn't really like any music
after about Landini. Ask yourself the question, "Does that matter?"
If anyone has
some sort of obsessive need to convince Phil that Machaut might be OK as well,
that's *th
LOL!
No
ROTHFLMAO!
Yards, not years!
Guy Hayden
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Raymond Horton
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 10:43 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Kilt construction.
Guy Hayden wrote:
> My kilt is made of j
Hi All:
While inserting an empty measure in a piece, I get a spinning eight note
and the a message saying that Finale has shut down.
Help;
Bob Florence
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Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
On 26-May-07, at 12:17 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
All of us know that if MakeMusic were to develop a French edition
(as IMO it should, Spanish too), it would immediately be denounced
as cultural imperialism--as has, for example, Google's world
literature project. God forbid the French sho
On 26-May-07, at 1:04 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 26 May 2007 at 12:41, Andrew Stiller wrote:
I cannot, for example, imagine any
American boy nowadays being denounced as a "fairy" because he played
the clarinet.
You must live in an entirely different world than *I* live in!
Not me!
In
Perhaps, perhaps not.Liszt himself described Gottschalk as the Alcibiades
of the Piano and Gottschalk was also called - routinely - the American Chopin.
The performing Gottschalk was known as a "concert pianist" - not as anything
less; I think rather than describing him as a pop musician
On May 26, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Bob Florence wrote:
Hi All:
While inserting an empty measure in a piece, I get a spinning eight
note and the a message saying that Finale has shut down.
This happened to a friend of mine just recently in FinMac2007. The
file has been corrupted somehow.
I wa
I would think, if anything, that their views would widen when exposed
to tonal music, IF they had the previous training you gave them.
Dean
On May 26, 2007, at 3:50 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
[snip]>
Kids aren't fixed. Maybe later, when inundated with tonality,
their a
Please define "Non -Tonal."
Dean
On May 25, 2007, at 7:46 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On May 25, 2007, at 7:04 PM, Phil Daley wrote:
I agree. But if it's non-tonal, it's not good.
Really? Berg's violin concerto is not good? Wozzeck and Lulu are
not good? *All* of Varèse is not good? Thr
H in the school at which I taught, playing the clarinet was
minimally acceptable, singing in the choir was (if male)
automatically classified as an all gay activity, and playing any
sport was an instant ticket to the adulation of 90%of your peers.
Unfortunately, I was the choral di
On May 26, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Please define "Non -Tonal."
There are several definitions in current use of "tonal" and "atonal",
none very strict nor all-encompassing. Depending on which one for
"tonal" you are using, "non-tonal" would just be everything else that
> Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
Sure, I like Bach; I marvel especially at his contrapuntal
creativity; I enjoy the sound of his music.
Andrew Stiller wrote:
Me, I like his grinding dissonances!
dhbailey wrote:
I like the percussiveness of so much of it...
And I say:
> You're all
On 26.05.2007 Andrew Stiller wrote:
The Italian for software is software. The German for software is
Software. Do I sense a pattern? Oh, well no: the Spanish for software
is programa (how did they ever come up with that?) and the Russian is
programma. The French words cheval and chien grew up n
At 16:40 -0400 5/25/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:
By all accounts it is as good as Finale and Sibelius
hey andrew, do you know anyone who has used it who could give some
concrete feedback on it, preferably beyond "gawldarnit, jeezwhiz eh,
yuud think them frenchies awda get with it and learn some
I wished we had more politics like in France protecting many hundred
years of German culture.
ABER WAS?!?!?! have the 1909 schoenbergian decrees been recalled? i
thought they were good for a millenium.
--
shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://
On May 26, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Randolph Peters wrote:
If only I had used the emoticon for irony...
Could this be it?
/ ***
/*|
/|
*
Christopher ;-)
___
Finale mailing lis
At 6:50 AM -0400 5/26/07, dhbailey wrote:
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
[snip]>
Kids aren't fixed. Maybe later, when inundated with tonality, their aural
view will narrow. But it doesn't start out that way.
How true that is! What's that line from South Pacific about kids
having to be taught to
I got the humor, if it's any consolation, Randolph.
RBH
Randolph Peters wrote:
> Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
Sure, I like Bach; I marvel especially at his contrapuntal
creativity; I enjoy the sound of his music.
Andrew Stiller wrote:
Me, I like his grinding dissonances!
dhbai
Christopher Smith wrote:
On May 26, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Bob Florence wrote:
Hi All:
While inserting an empty measure in a piece, I get a spinning eight
note and the a message saying that Finale has shut down.
This happened to a friend of mine just recently in FinMac2007. The
file has been c
At 11:19 AM 5/26/2007, João Miguel Pais wrote:
>By the way, JS Bach's music wasn't played almost at all in his last years,
>and it pratically disappeared until Mendelsson picked it up later
>(Beethoven and Mozart only got to some scores late in their lives). His
>contemporaries found it too far-f
At 10:46 PM 5/25/2007, Andrew Stiller wrote:
>And another thing: non-tonal and atonal are not synonyms. Most music,
>in fact, is non-tonal: Medieval and Renaissance music, non-Western
>music (all of it), rock music...
Rock music is non-tonal? That's news to me. Doesn't it do 1-4-5-1?
>Being
At 09:35 PM 5/25/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Let's say, hypothetically, that Phil Daley doesn't really like any music
>after about Landini. Ask yourself the question, "Does that matter?" If
>anyone has
>some sort of obsessive need to convince Phil that Machaut might be OK as
well,
>that's *
On 26 May 2007 at 19:49, João Miguel Pais wrote:
> > This old chestnut is not really true. Bach's keyboard music, for
> > instance, never quite disappeared. And in Leipzig, he was well-known
> > and his music was studied and played. The Allgemeine musikalische
> > Zeitung (published by Breitkopf)
At 01:09 PM 5/26/2007, Aaron Rabushka wrote:
>Wait a minute--how can anyone be wrong about what they like? Like any great
>composer Bach offers more than just a single attribute, and I think that all
>three comments here are very perceptive. When people make blanket statements
>to the effect that
I appreciate these words thank you. From the sense I make of it,
"atonal" and "no-tonal" come to mean pretty much the same thing,
i.e., lack of a tonal center due to the avoidance of leading tone
progressions and harmonies built of fourths and fifths, which tend to
announce a tonal cen
On 26 May 2007 at 11:47, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
> On 26 May 2007 at 10:33, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
>
> > In the mid-to-late 1800s American symphony
> > orchestras and opera companies were sprouting everywhere; every
> last > small town had its Opera House which was r
At 01:29 PM 5/26/2007, John Howell wrote:
>So I think Dennis's point might best be interpreted in this way:
>Inundation with tonality is there and is unavoidable. There's no
>"maybe later" about it! But young minds and young ears ARE open to
>more than one kind of music, or more than one kind o
At 10:33 AM -0700 5/26/07, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
I have to differ with Andrew: 'classical' music was really far more
popular in 18th/19th century America - and in fact especially in the
20th century than you imply.In the mid-to-late 1800s American
symphony orchestras and opera
I did an aleatoric piece with my middle school band (no, I didn't
like it, I thought it was important to expose them to other music
ideas).
you should try some of your own teaching sometime (you know, that bit
about exposure).
I don't think anyone in the audience (even the parents) liked i
I am just trying to point out what a majority of the people who
actually listen to classical music think.
hey phil thanks for representing me buddy.
get your facts straight.
better yet, get some facts.
--
shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://n
At 01:04 PM 5/26/2007, David W. Fenton wrote:
>On 26 May 2007 at 12:41, Andrew Stiller wrote:
>
>> I cannot, for example, imagine any
>> American boy nowadays being denounced as a "fairy" because he played
>> the clarinet.
>
>You must live in an entirely different world than *I* live in!
Please
On 26 May 2007 at 18:11, Phil Daley wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 5/26/2007, David W. Fenton wrote:
>
> >On 26 May 2007 at 12:41, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> >
> >> I cannot, for example, imagine any
> >> American boy nowadays being denounced as a "fairy" because he
> played >> the clarinet. > >You must
At 01:13 PM 5/26/2007, Aaron Rabushka wrote:
>I've always found it interesting that young children can often groove on
>music that their older siblings don't consider hip and their parents may not
>even consider music. Case in point: my youngest brother who never griped
>about music I was listen
John --
I'll admit, a slight exaggeration, John, but I'm not talking the Met. Read
what I said: "every last small town had its Opera House." And, despite
your information offered in response to my e-mail, even those somewhat
larger, including your very own hometown of Seattle - dating back
At 3:42 PM -0400 5/26/07, Christopher Smith wrote:
On May 26, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Please define "Non -Tonal."
There are several definitions in current use of "tonal" and
"atonal", none very strict nor all-encompassing. Depending on which
one for "tonal" you are using,
On May 26, 2007, at 1:33 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra (Les Marsden)
wrote:
In the mid-to-late 1800s American symphony orchestras and opera
companies were sprouting everywhere;
There *were* no American symphony orchestras in the mid-late 19th c.
except for the NY Phil and Theodore Tho
John Howell ended this particular post with:
"Yes, I have appeared to argue otherwise in the past. So?? If you want
consistency, go find a fundamentalist Republican!!"
And Les just had to say:
John - thank you for a wonderfully great, ROTFLMGO line!
Best,
Les
Les Marsden
Founding Music D
At 6:01 PM -0700 5/26/07, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
John --
I'll admit, a slight exaggeration, John, but I'm not talking the
Met. Read what I said: "every last small town had its Opera House."
And, despite your information offered in response to my e-mail, even
those somewhat larger,
I wished we had more politics like in France protecting many hundred
years of German culture.
Johannes
Yeah, well there are lots of folks here who think that American culture
is threatened by the Spanish language. I don't think much of that
reasoning no matter where it comes from.
Andr
On May 26, 2007, at 5:40 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
At 16:40 -0400 5/25/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:
By all accounts it is as good as Finale and Sibelius
hey andrew, do you know anyone who has used it who could give some
concrete feedback on it,
Unfortunately not. I had extended e-m
On May 26, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Phil Daley wrote:
Rock music is non-tonal? That's news to me. Doesn't it do 1-4-5-1?
No it doesn't. The vast majority of rock music is cast in the dorian
or mixolydian modes, neither of which possesses a leading tone.
Furthermore, it is derived from the 12-
Not to mention the Bach chorale the Berg literally quotes in the second
movement. I've always been fascinated how his violin concerto can seduce and
convine people who think they don't like 20th-century music.
Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
- Original Mes
At 12:41 PM 5/26/2007 -0400, Andrew Stiller wrote:
>IMO the cultural shift has been in the opposite direction. The
>fundamental antipathy among ordinary Americans toward classical music
>has its origins in the country's founding. In the 18th c
[...]
>Prior to 1960, most Americans lived their enti
So does "non-Western" include Appalachian fiddle tunes (often not tonal) and
Carter family songs (whose guitars tonalized entire tradtions)? (Sorry, but
as a new Carolinian I couldn't resist.)
Aaron J. Rabushka
who has always been thankful for the liberating influence of Indian
classical
[EMAIL PR
Hmm--I never heard of Charles Whittenberg, but if he sounds like me he must
have something on the ball! And yes, there was chromaticism before Wagner
(late Gesualdo madrigals, anyone?). Or Lasso's Sybillene Prophecy music?
(remember those, John H?)
Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.
At 12:02 PM 5/26/2007 -0700, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
>I would think, if anything, that their views would widen when exposed
>to tonal music, IF they had the previous training you gave them.
Just to clarify, though I taught music, I didn't give them training in the
traditional sense. I gave them
On May 26, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Phil Daley wrote:
Rock music is non-tonal? That's news to me. Doesn't it do 1-4-5-1?
Not too much of it these days. I guess you don't put on a radio very
often (not that I blame you for that) but I have a thirteen year old,
so I hear things that I might not
On May 26, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
I appreciate these words thank you. From the sense I make of
it, "atonal" and "no-tonal" come to mean pretty much the same
thing, i.e., lack of a tonal center due to the avoidance of leading
tone progressions and harmonies built of
Andrew Stiller wrote:
for the NY Phil and Theodore Thomas's touring outfit.>
And Les replies:
Andrew, with considerable respect, that just isn't the case whatsoever: I
referenced in a previous e-mail symphony orchestras and opera companies
sprouting everywhere the mid-to late 1800's, and tha
I really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but forgot one brief note: in just
one particular instance, one specific locale:
I recommend the really terrific book "Verdi at the Golden Gate: Opera and
San Francisco in the Gold Rush Years" by George Martin (University of
California Press, 1993, ISB
On 27.05.2007 Andrew Stiller wrote:
Yeah, well there are lots of folks here who think that American
culture is threatened by the Spanish language. I don't think much of
that reasoning no matter where it comes from.
I was almost going to make a cynical comment about American Culture, but
I w
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