Sam,
You are right stop creating new projects does not
solve the Validator problem. However, stopping the
creation of new projects might have long term effects.
The effect might be increased collaboration or
alternatively everyone leaving. It is a
dangerous/stupid/daring (pick your choice)
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:15, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
Of course it is easier to start from scratch to invent yet another
validation framework. This is where I see another failure of Jakarta.
People only go with the easiest route without any concern about the long
term mess they are making.
Peter,
So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
Regards, Ceki
--- Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:15, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
Of course it is easier to start from scratch to
invent yet another
validation framework. This is where I see another
I would still prefer having both around.
There are users and committers for each that are not
willing to move to the other.
IMO, community rules.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
-Original Message-
From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:45 AM
To:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:02, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
--- Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
Peter,
So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
Would there be a point to that?
It depends on whether and how you want to contribute.
There
Before anyone uses this, I would suggest you look at the bugs in the
BugParade about the bridge. Its not thread-safe, which can cause significant
problems for a multi-threaded environment like Tomcat. It can be used, but
you must be careful in your usage or else you will cause yourself
Ted Husted wrote:
At this point, I'm reconciled to do more work on the Jakata site using
XML in the old-fashioned way.
I can't resonate more with your feelings. That's exactly what made me
started the 'forrest' effort: the coherence on xml.apache.org and the
ease of update has been slowly
As a newbie (only 1.5 years around) I found the small bio posted by
Stefano on the Cocoon-dev list very interesting and instructive.
This post was triggered by curiosity and know-your-community concerns
that popped up in a couple of Cocoon-dev threads less than 2 months
ago. IMO, the fact that
Peter Donald wrote:
So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
Would there be a point to that?
It depends on whether and how you want to contribute.
There still is a lot of work to do. Ceki
And theres the rub.
These one (or two) line answers don't do much to illuminate
on 1/7/02 2:45 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
Peter,
So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
Would there be a point to that?
sarcasm
Exactly. Collaboration on a single logging tool would be a terrible idea.
/sarcasm
-jon
Jon Stevens wrote:
As for me fixing Jakarta...I'm not sure I have enough people interested in
helping fixing Jakarta. For example, Sam (our current leader) and others see
nothing wrong with the current process. I'm also not certain I have enough
energy to fight anymore...especially now that
The only concept that I found worth talking about (apologies if I missed
others covered by the incredible noise!) is Sam's suggestion that
'degree of cross-pollination' should be used as a metric to measure the
value of merging efforts.
Of all the other proposed metrics, I find this one the most
on 1/7/02 8:55 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Be forewarned that the Apache tradition is to allow people with enough
fire in their belly to tackle a particular problem that is important
to them the freedom to do so. If the problems you see are something
that you feel need
on 1/7/02 9:03 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One thing is for sure: both Gump and Forrest want to go in this
direction: provide solid technological infrastructure in order for
efforts to communicate, interoperate, share visions and exchange code,
ideas and solutions.
If
Jon wrote:
There is no community. There is projects which have people who follow them
blindly.
I do not believe that.
What I am seeing are the same signs Sam sees:
Sam wrote:
In my, admittedly biased, perspective, I see significant improvement in
terms of community over the course of
Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of
our system of checks and balances.
I just love checks and balances.
It is the least perfect system except for all the others already tried.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens
on 1/7/02 10:00 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What I am seeing are the same signs Sam sees:
Sam wrote:
In my, admittedly biased, perspective, I see significant improvement in
terms of community over the course of the past eleven months or so. For
starters, the following
Jon Stevens wrote:
Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of our
system
of checks and balances.
In other words, I don't see PMC chair being any more important or special
or
enabled than simply being a member of the PMC, which I already am.
Take a moment to review
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Sam Ruby wrote:
I continue to see the last 11 months as a period of progress.
+1
- Sam Ruby
Craig McClanahan
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It has been discussed on general@xml. Check the archives.
Scott
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:10 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cross-pollination
on 1/7/02 9:03 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL
on 1/7/02 10:51 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, all Gump shows us is that projects have managed to
quit breaking each others interfaces. Gump shows us that documents such as
this:
I care what is openly documented on websites. A mailing list discussion is
not an open discussion because unless you are privy to reading all the mail,
you don't know about it.
-jon
on 1/7/02 11:08 AM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It has been discussed on general@xml. Check the
on 1/7/02 11:17 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
+1
I believe that if we continue to provide an useful structure, then the
community will continue to build itself, in the way the community sees
fit.
We have grown to the size where we don't have structure anymore because no
one
on 1/7/02 11:27 AM, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If Sam gets hit by a bus tomorrow, who would be willing to step up and take
over the PMC chairmanship?
I should also add that my vote would be for #1. Geir and #2. Ceki.
The reason is that they seem to be about the only two
Don't you think pushing Sam out in front of bus would be a little bit
extreme Jon?
:)
What would happen if who ever said they would step up here was crossing
the street with him?
It's not like everything would grind to a halt.
I'd be a little more worried about what would happen if Brian
on 1/7/02 11:34 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's not like everything would grind to a halt.
That isn't my point and you didn't answer my question.
:-)
-jon
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Jon Stevens wrote:
There were no documents like that before I wrote it.
Forgive me, but I still hold to my belief that that at the time it was
written, that document wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Just like there was no nag.pl before I came up with the idea to implement
it.
You
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
Watchdog is TC specific - didn't know that ? Is it servlet/jsp specific or
tomcat specific? Could it be reimplemented over the top of Cactus or is it
tied to a specific infrastructure?
Watchdog is not Tomcat-specific - the validity tests should work
Guys,
This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:
We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
that
only want the name recognition value of being under Apache, and don't
have a development community
+1
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I mean lets go ahead with the proposal (final draft in the making)
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on 1/7/02 12:44 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think many folks on
the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
outer circle.
That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project. We
have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly
Look, I think Sam is irreplaceable and so are you. I don't want to even think about
what would happen if anything happened to any of you. Heaven forbid. That's all I have
to say on this.
At 11:27 07.01.2002 -0800, Jon Stevens wrote:
If Sam gets hit by a bus tomorrow, who would be willing to
At 13:11 07.01.2002 -0800, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
on 1/7/02 12:44 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think many folks on
the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
outer circle.
That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project.
Have many developers does scarab have, 10? Jakarta has around 200
committers plus ten
times that many developers. At 200'000 USD per committer that's a
budget of 40'000'000
Whoa dude. I am SO doing something wrong. 200,000?
USD a year. I'd estimate the budget of an equivalently sized
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
have used for Scarab as pretty close to right
on 1/7/02 2:20 PM, Paul Hammant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We should be careful turning away projects as they may end up as GPL
spit.
Now that is the funniest reason I have heard for accepting projects here!
:-) Thanks. I needed a good laugh.
-jon
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At 03:44 PM 1/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
Guys,
This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:
What I like most about Craig is that he is concise and accurate.
- micael
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For
On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Guys,
This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:
We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
that only want the name
On 7 Jan 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:
We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
that
only want the name recognition value of being under Apache,
Which projects are those?
Can you really compare them - and their community - with Jakarta?
I just want to know more.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:16 PM
...
Exactly. I feel that
I do what I can at the pace I am able.
Which is quite impressive. Especially considering that you probably have
other duties and a live.
I agree 100% with the rest (especially with the mass revolt bit).
Checking mechanisms (automatic or manual) and systematic nagging look
much more
on 1/7/02 4:23 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
if the peers agree with this process.
My opinion is that there are to many peers in the process and that is what
is breaking Jakarta. This wasn't a problem until now. We are starting to
explode under our own ever growing weight.
Jakarta
on 1/7/02 4:26 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Which projects are those?
Can you really compare them - and their community - with Jakarta?
Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here...
-jon
--
To
Jon Scott Stevens typed the following on 04:22 PM 1/6/2002 -0800
on 1/6/02 3:46 PM, Kief Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Although I haven't been participating, I've been following this discussion,
and would like to donate my 30,000 Turkish Lira (roughly $0.02 at today's
rates).
Yes, everyone
A document in some web page buried deep in the structure of a large web
site is not open to public discussion because unless you are privy to
reading all the web site you don't know about it.
Hey... that is why not so many people knew about Intake!!!
...and it is even harder to find out that
I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
on design:
The problem with singlemindedness and strict control (or design)
is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the
process and then following that process.
Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code
formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close
to agreement on it.
Jon,
I see you crying a
If we were to elect a new PMC Chair tomorrow, who would you like to see
elected?
Why is that question important???
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:07 AM
on 1/7/02 1:36 PM, Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED]
on 1/7/02 5:11 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why is that question important???
Paulo
I'm curious. Is it now not permitted to ask a question out of curiosity?
-jon
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Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here...
How can you know?
I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I
have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is
So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish
Lira today).
I would give at least 2 Euros for this one!
=:o)
Couldn't say it better... or I would have done it before!
=:o)
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
-Original Message-
From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Guys,
This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:
We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
that only want the name
I think many folks on
the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
outer circle.
That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project.
We
have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly happy just sitting in
their
bubble sub-projects and doing
I know it's hard to tell from the convoluted way this thread have gone
back and forth, but the comment above was not intended to have
*anything*
to do with POI specifically, or the proposal to move POI to Apache.
It
was a response to Ceki's concern about how to keep Jakarta from being
just
on 1/7/02 5:41 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I was much younger I used to go on BBSes and post Which is better
Amiga or IBM? and Why not just use a Mac? to see the fires rage. As
I grew up I found more productive ways to spend my time. Code
formatting is subjective.
on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.
That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.
I haven't seen you give any positive
On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:59:51PM -0800, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.
That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
have the energy to actually go
Answer inline,
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:18 AM
on 1/7/02 5:18 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
sourceforge...they
Ceki, I believe all you say.
However that does not mean that JBoss does better elsewhere than it would
do here.
Jon stated that some non-Apache projects show that there are better ways
of doing Open Source and gave JBoss as an example.
But we just do not know how it would be if they were her.
I've been meaning to trawl through the jakarta subprojects looking for
components that could be suitable for using in a project of mine. It
occurs to me that having an inventory of components could be a useful
thing for Jakarta, both for general developers who may be overwhelmed
by what's there,
Perhaps like Commons, there should be an open proving ground
for those wishing to make steps into the Apache world.
Probably not what you had in mind, but adding the project to
the gump run would be a start.
All sorts of monitoring goes on then, including prompting from
the gump-er (ie
That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.
Did you ever run or walk a Marathon? Or just 20 Km?
Or swim 10Km?
It is one step (or stroke) after the other or you get too tired just by
thinking about it.
I
What about just a version of this form:
http://search.apache.org/
or a link to it???
Take a look at my previous posting (the crushed thread) for more
details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
sub-domain just by changing its HTML.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
on 1/7/02 7:30 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think Jon is undervaluing Jakarta because he helped creating it and
he is comparing what it is with what he dreamed it would be. Things tend
not to work according to our high expectations.
I'm sure that is very true.
-jon
--
To
on 1/7/02 7:19 PM, Kief Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Despite these problems, I think it'd be worth having around.
Then take the reigns and just do it the way that you think it should be
done. No need for a proposal.
-jon
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For
on 1/7/02 7:27 PM, Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the project won't deal with gump nags, and can't keep their
builds from breaking then they probably won't fit into Jakarta.
Bingo. Great point.
However, forcing a project to have gump nags is not something Sam is willing
to dictate.
on 1/7/02 7:59 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What about just a version of this form:
http://search.apache.org/
or a link to it???
Take a look at my previous posting (the crushed thread) for more
details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
sub-domain
On 1/7/02 11:03 PM, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on 1/7/02 7:27 PM, Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the project won't deal with gump nags, and can't keep their
builds from breaking then they probably won't fit into Jakarta.
Bingo. Great point.
However, forcing a
This idea was (is) part of the Commons charter:
(1.5.2) the directory
The subproject will also catalog packages and other resources
available to the public related to other Jakarta subprojects and ASF
projects. This will be a dynamic catalog, like Bugzilla and Jyve,
similar in
on 1/7/02 8:10 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree with Sam here - you have to buy into the Gump nags and understand
the value, or you are going to think it's an intrusive fussyness, which it
is, actually :)
Or you could think of it this way...
Part of the 'privilege' of
On 1/7/02 12:53 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:39, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Shouldn't tomcat and httpd be in the same category?
different technologies (ie c vs java).
So what? You didn't think that mattered before.
what are you talking about ? When
Jeff Turner typed the following on 03:16 PM 1/8/2002 +1100
This will be a dynamic catalog, like Bugzilla and Jyve,
similar in functionality to download.com, cpan.org, or
SourceForge.net. New entries may be added by Jakarta committers,
developers, and users. Entries by developers and
On 1/7/02 11:20 PM, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on 1/7/02 8:10 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree with Sam here - you have to buy into the Gump nags and understand
the value, or you are going to think it's an intrusive fussyness, which it
is, actually :)
No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
=:o/
But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
minutes for someone who does know.
Have fun,
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:05
On 1/7/02 11:49 PM, Kief Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jeff Turner typed the following on 03:16 PM 1/8/2002 +1100
This will be a dynamic catalog, like Bugzilla and Jyve,
similar in functionality to download.com, cpan.org, or
SourceForge.net. New entries may be added by Jakarta
On 1/8/02 12:05 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
=:o/
But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
minutes for someone who does know.
Done.
Have fun,
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Jon
COOL!
=:o)
-Original Message-
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:03 AM
On 1/8/02 12:05 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
=:o/
But at least puting the URL
on 1/7/02 9:05 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No karma
Submit a patch.
, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
RTFM
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html
Oh well, Geir did your work for you, so you don't learn anything.
-jon
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Found it amusing, especially #8.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/ten-commandments.html
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
We will be judged not by the monuments we build, but by the monuments we
destroy - Ada Louise
Well, I did learn how to change a Jakarta web page!
This time the theory, next time the patch!
=:o)
Have fun,
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Jakarta code search
For my own personal brace style I have adopted the KR are right rule.
I have brace tolerance though. (just like I have _variable
tolerance). There is one thing I have no tolerance for though: low
quality. (This is why I don't drink cheap American beer like that bad
knock off of the Czech
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